highaltitude.log.20121124

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[00:12] <arko> this time machine is driving me crazy
[00:12] <arko> >_<
[00:13] <arko> doc brown was a terrible engineer
[00:13] <arko> just sayin
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[00:18] <fsphil> below average scott?
[00:18] <arko> haha
[00:19] <arko> to be movie accurate is a pain
[00:19] <arko> this dude ran wires in the dumbest ways
[00:19] <arko> i should really be upset with ILM but it does look cool
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[00:31] <m0psi> hi upu, are you about?
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[07:01] <natrium42> eroomde: there?
[07:21] <eroomde> natrium42: yes
[07:22] <eroomde> but only for about 3 mins
[07:33] <natrium42> lolloloolld'oh
[07:33] <natrium42> whoops
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[07:52] <fsphil> what?
[07:55] <arko> eroomde: dude this book is amazing
[07:55] <arko> rockets are so damn cool
[07:55] <eroomde> RPE?
[07:55] <eroomde> natrium42: just got your message
[07:55] <eroomde> is phiul on it?
[07:56] <arko> yep
[07:56] <eroomde> arko: we did an ox/methane burn yesterday evening
[07:56] <eroomde> as part of this mars-synthesisables work
[07:56] <arko> O_O
[07:56] <arko> nice
[07:57] <arko> success?
[07:57] <arko> learn things?
[07:57] <natrium42> eroomde: yes, he's checking
[07:57] <eroomde> http://i.imgur.com/FOy6A.png
[07:57] <eroomde> yeah we learnt things
[07:58] <eroomde> like, the design of an injector system that works with multiple propellent combos and that is borderline, thermally, on ox/methane, is infact a bit over the borderline
[07:58] <eroomde> it played a part in the combustion process
[07:58] <eroomde> so we didn;t have the world's most elegent shutdown
[07:58] <eroomde> bit sparky
[08:02] <arko> woah!
[08:03] <arko> is sparky bad in terms of degridation?
[08:03] <arko> degradation*
[08:03] <griffonbot> Received email: Ali al-Azzawi "[UKHAS] Re: Cheap HAB base antennas available"
[08:04] <eroomde> sparky means solid parts in the exhaust
[08:04] <eroomde> which is a bad thing
[08:04] <eroomde> you never want sparky
[08:04] <arko> ohh
[08:04] <eroomde> and in this case it was bit of injector
[08:04] <arko> yikes, thats not good
[08:04] <arko> >_<
[08:05] <eroomde> i think stainless is not really the material
[08:05] <eroomde> stainless in a rocket usually ends in tears
[08:05] <eroomde> have seen this kind of thing before
[08:05] <eroomde> same with titanium, which people inexplicably think is a good thing
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[08:06] <eroomde> high melting point means absolutely sod all, there is vastly more thermal flux in a combustion chamber than any metal can take at equilbrium
[08:06] <eroomde> the only criteria you care about is thermal conductivity
[08:09] <eroomde> annoyingly we have some of cusf visiting our site this morning
[08:09] <eroomde> and not sure if we can fix intime to do a firing
[08:10] <arko> oh interesting
[08:10] <arko> i've been dealing with stainless when it comes to welding
[08:10] <arko> it just loves warping
[08:10] <eroomde> yeah
[08:10] <eroomde> i unfortunately made a banana last week
[08:10] <arko> ?
[08:10] <eroomde> welding some gas fittings on one side of a 1" pipe
[08:11] <arko> oh
[08:11] <arko> fun
[08:11] <arko> tig welding?
[08:11] <eroomde> because they were all down one side, about 6 of them evenly distributed along a 1.5m length, the contracting of the weldings cause it to curl
[08:11] <eroomde> yeah tig
[08:11] <eroomde> everything is tig here
[08:11] <eroomde> solder or tig
[08:11] <eroomde> we do it
[08:11] <eroomde> we just got a miller syncrowave beast of a welder
[08:11] <arko> nice
[08:11] <eroomde> like 350A
[08:12] <arko> oh sweet
[08:12] <eroomde> sin ewave so nice and smooth
[08:12] <eroomde> it's the size of a small car
[08:12] <arko> generator?
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[08:12] <eroomde> nope, 62A three-phase
[08:12] <arko> thats a scary amount of current
[08:12] <arko> haha
[08:12] <eroomde> uhuh
[08:12] <eroomde> apparently you the welder overheat if you go up that high
[08:13] <eroomde> it's more for trans-siberian pipelines and suspension bridges i think
[08:13] <eroomde> we won;t really need it for doing rocket gas fittings
[08:13] <arko> why do you need that much power?
[08:13] <eroomde> we don't
[08:13] <arko> oh
[08:13] <eroomde> but
[08:13] <arko> hah, yeah
[08:13] <eroomde> on our site there was a cnc machinist firm
[08:13] <arko> as long as it's adjustable
[08:13] <eroomde> run by a friend called dom
[08:13] <eroomde> he's decided to go to NZ for a year to get his commercial pilots license
[08:14] <eroomde> so has offered to let us babysit some of his toys
[08:14] <eroomde> the welder being among them
[08:14] <arko> awesome hand me down
[08:14] <eroomde> hell yeah
[08:14] <arko> haha
[08:14] <eroomde> it's really very nice
[08:14] <eroomde> as i say, sinewave rather than square
[08:14] <arko> smooth
[08:15] <eroomde> so the results are a bit smoother, the sound is less annoying, and it doesn't wreak havoc with the electronics lab
[08:15] <arko> does it reduce the popping?
[08:15] <eroomde> yeah it does a bit
[08:15] <arko> hmm
[08:15] <arko> i need to try one one of these days
[08:15] <eroomde> though really it should be ok with a clean tip and right choice of current
[08:16] <eroomde> a skill i don;t have at all
[08:16] <arko> all the difference
[08:16] <eroomde> but enjoying learning
[08:16] <arko> haha
[08:16] <arko> same
[08:16] <arko> they wouldn't let me touch the final stainless
[08:16] <arko> btw, did i tell you about the delorean?
[08:16] <arko> time machine stuff
[08:16] <eroomde> no?
[08:16] <arko> ohh dude
[08:16] <arko> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2GFA8biDDE
[08:16] <arko> i can finally talk about it publically
[08:17] <arko> im helping restore the delorean from back to the future
[08:17] <arko> the original "A" Car
[08:17] <arko> im the dude (along with another dude in OZ) restoring/renewing the electronics
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[08:19] <arko> got to play with stainless steel welding (with the scrap) for practice
[08:19] <eroomde> 'it's alive'
[08:19] <arko> :)
[08:19] <eroomde> guessing that's you :p
[08:19] <arko> yes sir
[08:19] <arko> we can swing by the car when it goes on display at universal
[08:20] <eroomde> this is incredible
[08:20] <arko> :)
[08:20] <eroomde> sir, that is a mighty breadboard
[08:20] <eroomde> you win
[08:20] <arko> yeah
[08:20] <arko> that was the prototype
[08:20] <arko> wait till you see the new pcb
[08:20] <arko> it;s so sexy clean
[08:20] <arko> we even have a harness
[08:21] <eroomde> lol
[08:21] <arko> that was a fun thing to prototype though
[08:22] <eroomde> i'm knocking up a pcb at the moment too
[08:22] <arko> sweet, what are you using?
[08:22] <arko> Altium?
[08:22] <eroomde> want to automate the whole igniter sequence for the rocket
[08:22] <eroomde> eagle
[08:23] <arko> oh cool yeah i use eagle now and then when i dont feel like the mess that could be altium
[08:23] <eroomde> i've never used altium
[08:23] <eroomde> never had the money
[08:23] <arko> it's expensive and complicated
[08:23] <arko> but helps organize
[08:23] <eroomde> eagle is about the only concession we make at work to paid software
[08:23] <eroomde> it's otherwise a 100% foss shop
[08:23] <arko> yeah
[08:23] <arko> haha
[08:24] <arko> you guys dont have some box that does all the rocket controls?
[08:24] <eroomde> but yeah, so we ignite the rockets with a glow plug in a separate unit
[08:24] <arko> waaaaaa
[08:24] <eroomde> which has a small feed of h2 and o2, gaseous
[08:24] <eroomde> which generates a very hot gas jet which gets fired into the main combustion chamber
[08:24] <eroomde> but the glow plugs can occassionally get a bit upset
[08:24] <eroomde> and not properly light the igniter gases
[08:24] <eroomde> which means no hot flame when you start duming kg/s of propellent in
[08:25] <eroomde> which is just wasteful and annoying
[08:25] <eroomde> so i'm building a little control pcb to put a current across the glow plug and check it is healthy (from current consumption)
[08:25] <eroomde> then sequency the o2 and h2 valves
[08:25] <arko> oh nice
[08:25] <eroomde> then check the temp has come up from a thermocouple
[08:25] <eroomde> then give a 'good to go!' 24V signal back to the main rig control system
[08:25] <eroomde> which can then introduce the propellents
[08:26] <arko> usbing that into a computer or just having the microcontroller handle all of that?
[08:26] <eroomde> it's nothing earthshattering, it's just one of those cases where it's been annoying us a bit recently
[08:26] <arko> yeah makes sense
[08:26] <eroomde> just an atmega328 locally
[08:26] <arko> sweet
[08:26] <eroomde> 24V 'go!' signal in
[08:26] <eroomde> 24V 'igniter on!' signal out
[08:26] <arko> thought you might do a labview thing
[08:26] <eroomde> OH GOD NO
[08:26] <arko> hahaha
[08:26] <eroomde> MAKE IT STOP
[08:26] <arko> oh man
[08:26] <arko> wait till you see spacex
[08:26] <eroomde> we DO NOT use labview
[08:27] <arko> hAHAHHAHA
[08:27] <eroomde> we have written all our own stuff
[08:27] <eroomde> made all our own dataloggers
[08:27] <eroomde> it all works on ethernet
[08:27] <eroomde> it's much better
[08:27] <arko> i cant wait to see your face when you see all their shit running labview
[08:27] <eroomde> i cannot be doing with bloody labview
[08:27] <arko> :P
[08:27] <arko> yeah its slow if you arent using their stuff
[08:28] <eroomde> also have revere engineered some of their dataloggers and i think they cut corners a bit with the analog conditioning
[08:28] <eroomde> i would like to think our stuff is quite gucci
[08:28] <arko> lol
[08:28] <arko> i hate labview with a passion too
[08:28] <eroomde> and yeah, it just spits everything over ethernet with an spi-ethernet chip
[08:28] <arko> oh nice
[08:29] <eroomde> and then we have some c programs which grab everything and put it in tabulated ascii files
[08:29] <arko> clean and quick
[08:29] <eroomde> and then a whole bunch of scripts to data munge and do graphs and stuff
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[08:29] <eroomde> all octave/gnuplot
[08:29] <eroomde> though i like numpy and matplotlib
[08:29] <eroomde> but historically has been octave and gnuplot
[08:29] <eroomde> and gnuplot does work a bit better for interacting, i've found
[08:30] <eroomde> like zooming in, putting markers on, etc
[08:30] <eroomde> for the next gen control system we're switching to cortexm4 chips in the dataloggers, and 100MBit ethernet
[08:31] <arko> fancy
[08:31] <arko> arm arch is great
[08:31] <eroomde> and perhaps the valve control box having a little lua interpreter
[08:31] <eroomde> to do lua scripts for the automated sequences
[08:31] <arko> lots of room to expand
[08:31] <eroomde> yeah totally
[08:31] <eroomde> we have these damn sex adc chipoids
[08:31] <arko> the best part will be having that network stack IN the chip
[08:32] <eroomde> 200ksps, 8ch, simultaneous sampling 16 bit adcs
[08:32] <arko> woah
[08:32] <eroomde> but that's a hell of a datarate
[08:32] <arko> yeah
[08:32] <eroomde> so the cortexm4s with ethernet stack built in, as you say, should be able to take advantage
[08:32] <arko> streaming that over ethernet?
[08:32] <eroomde> well, perhaps not 200ksps. you just don;t need it really, nothing in the rocket happens that fast
[08:32] <eroomde> except detonations
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[08:33] <eroomde> but if something detonates there are other ways to find out about it
[08:33] <arko> i can guess one of them
[08:33] <eroomde> eg by pulling bits of chamber out of the blast walls
[08:33] <arko> i just wonder how you handle a miss fire
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[08:33] <eroomde> hard starts?
[08:33] <arko> misfire*
[08:34] <eroomde> well, you can see them fine even at 5khz
[08:34] <arko> well, you send it to spark but it malfunctions
[08:34] <arko> doesnt start
[08:34] <arko> what do you do?
[08:34] <eroomde> we have a dead-mans handle on the sequency
[08:34] <eroomde> a human (james) holding a big button down
[08:34] <eroomde> so we just let go if it doesn't light up
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[08:34] <eroomde> everything shuts off and you reset
[08:34] <eroomde> this happened yesterday
[08:34] <eroomde> infact
[08:34] <eroomde> so we pulled up the data, graphed it all
[08:34] <arko> so you power all the electronics down?
[08:35] <eroomde> and within a 2nd or two saw that we had a delay on the oxident valve
[08:35] <eroomde> it was being a bit sticky
[08:35] <arko> and hope nothing accidentally start by act of god or something?
[08:35] <eroomde> so the chamber was already too fuel rich by the time the oxident came up
[08:35] <arko> ohh
[08:35] <eroomde> so we fixed that and went again
[08:35] <arko> looking at dat
[08:35] <arko> a
[08:35] <eroomde> arko: yeah totally re: safety
[08:36] <eroomde> so there are 2 big meaty gloabl normall-off valves on the main lines coming into the bunker
[08:36] <eroomde> they need the dedicated 24V psu to be on
[08:36] <eroomde> if that's off, then the system is isolated
[08:36] <eroomde> so it's safe for us to go into the bay
[08:36] <arko> oh ok
[08:36] <eroomde> once we've vented anything in the lines downstream of course
[08:36] Action: arko rests
[08:36] <eroomde> and we all have personal gas detectors
[08:36] <eroomde> for methane, CO and so on
[08:36] <arko> smart
[08:37] <arko> didnt even think about that
[08:37] <eroomde> you want to with CO, which we've been using recently
[08:37] <arko> yeah i dont want to get near LO2 and other things
[08:37] <arko> still in the lines
[08:37] <eroomde> 1% air composition and you're dead
[08:37] <eroomde> as it bonds to haemoglobin preferentially
[08:37] <arko> shit
[08:37] <eroomde> and it's odourless
[08:37] <fsphil> bad combo
[08:37] <arko> i cant sleep tonight
[08:37] <arko> great
[08:38] <eroomde> that's also the reason we note wind direction each test
[08:38] <eroomde> so you know which direction to evacuate from the bunker if you need to
[08:38] <fsphil> this is why I'll stick to simple rockets :)
[08:38] <arko> haha
[08:38] <eroomde> these are actually quite nice propellents too
[08:39] <eroomde> next door they do hypergolics
[08:39] <arko> at least it's not hydrazine
[08:39] <fsphil> nobody ever got hurt by a water rocket. well, nobody smart
[08:39] <eroomde> that's a whole different ball game of nasty
[08:39] <arko> cancer
[08:39] <eroomde> if you survive yeah
[08:39] <eroomde> we have an older chap who works with us
[08:39] <arko> heh
[08:39] <eroomde> in theory retired but in practice not
[08:39] <eroomde> he's seen and done everything
[08:40] <eroomde> we introduce him a bit like the stig
[08:40] <eroomde> with silly little titles
[08:40] <arko> hahaha
[08:40] <arko> some say...
[08:40] <eroomde> 'the only man alive who knows the taste of hydrazine'
[08:40] <arko> hahahahahaha
[08:40] <arko> thats awesome
[08:40] <eroomde> but yeah, malcolm is a legend
[08:40] <eroomde> he's been here (westcott) for 50 years
[08:41] <eroomde> his first boss was one of the nazi rocket scientists after ww2
[08:41] <arko> woah
[08:42] <eroomde> and he's a bit of an artist at pipe bending
[08:42] <eroomde> there's quite a knack to it
[08:42] <eroomde> but he cane make these beautiful plumbing jobs
[08:42] <arko> sounds like a cool guy to hang around
[08:42] <arko> probably learn lots
[08:43] <eroomde> yeah, absolutely
[08:43] <arko> btw
[08:43] <arko> im planning my euro trip for summer
[08:43] <arko> im thinking of adding UK
[08:43] <eroomde> you can sketch out a valve for something and he'll say 'dear boy! you'll get a sheck forming here if you do a bend that tight, perhaps relax that angle'
[08:43] <arko> US->UK->Germany->Austria->US
[08:43] <eroomde> the kind of thing you wouldn't think about but he has seen before
[08:43] <arko> hahahaha
[08:43] <jcoxon> morning all
[08:43] <arko> morning
[08:44] <eroomde> arko: to pre-empt, yes come
[08:44] <eroomde> stay as longas u want
[08:44] <arko> yea, experience goes a long way
[08:44] <arko> haha
[08:44] <arko> i figured you and another friend of mine are out there
[08:44] <arko> i'd be cool to see your rocket shop
[08:44] <arko> i need to go to Austria anyway
[08:44] <arko> since im on that side of the world, why not
[08:45] <jcoxon> arko, come balloon launching
[08:45] <eroomde> it's a shame we don;t have a photo of thr back end of this
[08:45] <eroomde> http://www.ael.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/fle_panel.jpg
[08:45] <arko> DUDE
[08:45] <arko> BALLOON LAUNCH
[08:45] <arko> I'll bring payload
[08:45] <eroomde> but this is something we've made a few of recently
[08:45] <arko> my new wallpaper
[08:45] <eroomde> they're propellent loading panels for filling sattelites. a nice little earner. anyway, malcolm's plumbing round the back is a work of art
[08:45] <arko> that looks terrifying to be next to
[08:46] <arko> does it just load?
[08:46] <eroomde> yeah
[08:46] <arko> very clean man
[08:46] <eroomde> well i guess it can vent too
[08:46] <eroomde> if necessary
[08:46] <eroomde> arko: the panels were done with frontpaneldesigner
[08:46] <eroomde> google them
[08:46] <eroomde> amazing service
[08:46] <eroomde> they have a crossplatform cad program
[08:47] <arko> sweet!
[08:47] <eroomde> which you design a panel in, pick the material (ali in various thickness and anodization colours), all the lines are engraved and filled and come in a choice of colours
[08:47] <eroomde> it all gets cnc'd
[08:47] <eroomde> it comes with a library of standard holes for d-connectors and stuff
[08:47] <eroomde> and then the program generates a quote
[08:47] <eroomde> and you send it off
[08:47] <eroomde> get the panels back a week later all machiens and finished
[08:47] <arko> hah!
[08:47] <arko> it's like pcb house
[08:47] <eroomde> and assemble the bits in
[08:47] <arko> but for rocket stuff!
[08:47] <eroomde> it's a really great service
[08:48] <eroomde> yeah :)
[08:48] <arko> must be expensive since it's a small market
[08:48] <eroomde> we use it for lotsa of control panel stuff
[08:48] <eroomde> well, surprisingly not
[08:48] <eroomde> i mean, that lot was about $300 i think
[08:48] <arko> waa
[08:48] <arko> damn dude
[08:48] <eroomde> which isn't too bad compared to the rpice of this whole thing
[08:48] <arko> im ordering a coffee maker from them then
[08:48] <arko> thats cheap
[08:48] <eroomde> as it's a labour intise thing for the space industry
[08:48] <eroomde> intensive*
[08:48] <arko> yeah
[08:49] <arko> man that would make a cool coffee maker actually
[08:49] <eroomde> :)
[08:49] <eroomde> we have a new site
[08:49] <eroomde> you've propbs seen
[08:49] <eroomde> ael.co.uk
[08:50] <eroomde> it's still mega mega basic
[08:50] <eroomde> but it's better than the old one
[08:50] <eroomde> and this coming week we'll tidy it up and get more stuff up
[08:50] <eroomde> but it's a start
[08:50] <arko> yeah just found that
[08:50] <arko> found the company
[08:50] <arko> european astrotech
[08:50] <arko> nice
[08:50] <arko> wow westcott looks nice
[08:50] <eroomde> european astrotech are the customer
[08:50] <eroomde> we're airborne engineering
[08:51] <arko> right
[08:51] <eroomde> but yeah, they're on this site too
[08:51] <eroomde> it's nice
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[08:51] <eroomde> there's a bit of a nucleation of small space companies
[08:51] <eroomde> all private
[08:51] <arko> yeah, i meant to say i found their name from your site
[08:51] <arko> cool
[08:51] <arko> we totally need to do a hab when i come out there
[08:51] <arko> this was a good ideajcoxon
[08:51] <arko> this was a good idea* jcoxon
[08:52] <eroomde> yeah def
[08:52] <eroomde> do
[08:52] <arko> ok, i need to make this happen
[08:52] <eroomde> summer next year might be a really awesome time to visit westcott
[08:53] <arko> im down
[08:53] <jcoxon> can i come?
[08:53] <arko> why not!
[08:53] <arko> lets all get drunk!
[08:53] <fsphil> hah
[08:53] <eroomde> from a fundamental miletone in rocket science pov
[08:53] <eroomde> :)
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[08:53] <arko> oh
[08:53] <arko> btw
[08:53] <arko> congrats to ESA
[08:53] <arko> some funding
[08:53] <arko> ;)
[08:53] <fsphil> please don't drink and launch :)
[08:53] <arko> no no
[08:53] <eroomde> don't congratulate esa
[08:53] <arko> launch then dreak
[08:54] <eroomde> they don;t deserve
[08:54] <arko> drink*
[08:54] <eroomde> just prey than the money gets redistributes sensibly
[08:54] <arko> haha
[08:54] <fsphil> "Where's the balloon?" "What balloon?" "Bugger"
[08:54] <arko> LOL
[08:54] <arko> eroomde: heh, didnt realize
[08:54] <eroomde> it's ok
[08:54] <arko> im use to nasa here which isn't bad with the money (all that much)
[08:54] <eroomde> i am bitter
[08:55] <arko> though i support private more
[08:55] <eroomde> i hate seeing all these huge prime contracts absorb millions
[08:55] <eroomde> just to produce MS word documents saying how they won't be able to deliver anything on time
[08:55] <arko> eroomde: http://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1337/13/1337131922648.png
[08:55] <eroomde> we could do so fucking much with they money they piss away
[08:55] <fsphil> think of all those managers who'd be out of a job without ESA
[08:55] <arko> LOL
[08:55] <arko> hahahah
[08:55] <arko> fsphil you made me spit my drink
[08:56] <eroomde> that's exactly it
[08:56] <eroomde> sadly
[08:56] <arko> i was thinking about all the nasa managers
[08:56] <arko> harmonica on the streets
[08:56] <eroomde> seriously, this makes me so sad
[08:56] <eroomde> so you know that CUSF did some work with ESA in 2009?
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[08:57] <eroomde> we tested parachutes at mach 0.8 at high alt, from a balloon
[08:57] <eroomde> for mars-like conditions
[08:57] <eroomde> build a instrumented bomb-shaped drop vehicle
[08:57] <arko> what when wrong?
[08:57] <eroomde> accels, gyros, high speed camera etc
[08:57] <eroomde> nothing went wrong
[08:57] <eroomde> it was fine
[08:57] <arko> oh good
[08:57] <eroomde> well, the high speed cmaera went out of focus actually when it say 100G deceleration from the chute
[08:58] <eroomde> but that was for pretties rather than mission critical
[08:58] <arko> i thought it was about to turn into a "ESA micromanaged us into failure"
[08:58] <eroomde> and anyway, the budget was $30kUSD, which seemed likema huge amount to us 4 undergrads
[08:58] <eroomde> in a lab over a summer vacation
[08:58] <eroomde> so
[08:58] <arko> probably would have costs butt loads more if it was esa employees
[08:58] <eroomde> this was part of the many million euros of edl activities on ExoMars
[08:59] <fsphil> exomars seems to be going nowhere atm
[08:59] <eroomde> edl = entry descent and landing, u probs know
[08:59] <eroomde> so anyway
[08:59] <eroomde> fast forward a year
[08:59] <eroomde> there is a big exomars ministerial meeting
[08:59] <eroomde> they want all the hardware done in all the exomars EDL activies so far to put in the meeting room for pretties
[08:59] <eroomde> the power of hardware etc
[09:00] <eroomde> including our little vehicle that us as 4 smelly undergrads made
[09:00] <eroomde> so i drive over to ESTEC, the big esa campus in holland
[09:00] <eroomde> with a bomb in the boot (man that was fun at customs)
[09:00] <eroomde> boot = trunk
[09:00] <arko> OH GOD
[09:00] <eroomde> and deliver this thing to the guy at estec
[09:00] <fsphil> just be glad you didn't have NI number plates :p
[09:00] <eroomde> he seems really pleased to see me
[09:00] <eroomde> and shows me everything else
[09:00] <eroomde> there is:
[09:01] <eroomde> a couple of 6" diameter aluminium wind tunnel models of the entry capsule
[09:02] <eroomde> some honeyvomb aluminium panels, about 50cm x 50cm, a bit bashed in the middle
[09:02] <eroomde> which we used in a landing energy absorbtion experiment
[09:02] <arko> woah sweet
[09:02] <eroomde> and a very ropey engineering model of a parachute
[09:02] <eroomde> and our vehicle
[09:02] <eroomde> that was what they had to show for about 10MEuros and several years of work
[09:03] <eroomde> and i'm not overly tooting my own trumpet
[09:03] <eroomde> but out 25kEuro bit of that was by far the most impressive thing
[09:03] <arko> well for 30k thats freaking awesome
[09:03] <arko> yeha
[09:03] <eroomde> the rest was some paperweights and bashed honeycomb panel
[09:03] <arko> btw, for the ESA funding: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtkST5-ZFHw&t=30s
[09:03] <eroomde> like
[09:03] <eroomde> i nearly cried
[09:03] <eroomde> so much waste!
[09:03] <arko> oh this is perfect
[09:03] <arko> click that link
[09:04] <arko> relevant video
[09:04] <eroomde> yeah totally
[09:04] <arko> :P
[09:04] <arko> IT'S NOT YOUR FAULT
[09:04] <eroomde> i just gave up with the whole enterprise there and then
[09:04] <arko> sadly, nasa can be like that
[09:04] <eroomde> too depressing
[09:04] <eroomde> so i want to stay small and private now
[09:05] <arko> its more fun anyway
[09:05] <arko> cheaper, better, faster
[09:06] <arko> (not the jpl program)
[09:06] <eroomde> :)
[09:06] <arko> that went well /s
[09:06] <arko> jpl is actually not that bad
[09:06] <eroomde> you have good people there
[09:06] <arko> true
[09:06] <jcoxon> arko, i appreciate that jpl is massive but do you know Doug Ellison?
[09:06] <arko> hahaha
[09:06] <eroomde> i think a lot of the problem with the huge prime constractors is, frankly, and this always seems a bit awkward and harsh to say
[09:06] <arko> eroomde asked me that too
[09:06] <arko> i've met him once
[09:06] <jcoxon> oh right
[09:06] <arko> but dont know him
[09:06] <jcoxon> :-)
[09:07] <eroomde> but they just seem to be happy to higher huge numbers of quite average people
[09:07] <arko> did animation right?
[09:07] <jcoxon> yeah
[09:07] <eroomde> and because they can't necessarily trust them to get on with things autonomously, put a huge amount of process and overhead in
[09:07] <arko> absolutly
[09:07] <eroomde> and so you get these vast oil-tankers of a machine
[09:07] <eroomde> they do quite interesting stuff
[09:07] <eroomde> but extrememly slowly and expensively
[09:08] <arko> yeah
[09:08] <arko> but i think the process can get complicated
[09:08] <eroomde> and if only you could just make hiring good people a sort of internal religion, skunkworks style, you could get the same thing done 10 times faster with 1/10th the number of people
[09:08] <arko> yes
[09:08] <eroomde> but that's not really in the interests of these organisations
[09:08] <eroomde> they get cost-plus contracts
[09:08] <eroomde> they can put a profit margin of 8% on everything they spend
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[09:09] <eroomde> and 8% of 100 salaries os more than 8% of 10 salaries
[09:09] <eroomde> is more*
[09:10] <arko> the big thing they worry about is reliability
[09:10] <arko> and mission assurance
[09:10] <arko> so they figure throw money at it
[09:11] <jcoxon> damn, don't have a 5v boost converter, just a 3.3v
[09:11] <arko> you get your reliability at a huge cost
[09:11] <eroomde> yeah
[09:11] <arko> spacex was smart though
[09:11] <eroomde> and still the reasoning is holey
[09:11] <arko> they showed up and gobble up a fair amount of those folks from jpl
[09:11] <arko> they threw me a job offer this last year
[09:12] <eroomde> its one thing to have a ms word document full of artifacty screengrabs from your fea program, for each component
[09:12] <arko> turned it down for other reasons, but i would have jumped if i was done with school
[09:12] <eroomde> but that's not really smart, system level reliability
[09:12] <arko> point being
[09:12] <arko> its not just the reliabilit folks
[09:12] <arko> not really the people they got
[09:13] <arko> reliability is built from experience and known systems
[09:13] <arko> and lots and lots of testing
[09:13] <arko> good god do we test
[09:13] <arko> test and test and test
[09:14] <arko> but a lot of the guys here who did testing and knew what to design for (like analysis guys) were very valueable
[09:14] <arko> oddly, jpl has been laying off a lot of older folks
[09:15] <eroomde> esa has a wekness is this regard too
[09:15] <eroomde> they like to spread the love around a bit
[09:15] <arko> in what way?
[09:15] <eroomde> so company A will get sa research contract
[09:16] <eroomde> and then some similar followon work with go to company B in a different country because their return was a bit lower this year
[09:16] <arko> oh yeah
[09:16] <eroomde> (i.e. each country must get awarded contracts in proportion to how much their governments shove into esa)
[09:16] <arko> that happens a lot
[09:16] <arko> oh
[09:16] <eroomde> and they will just be given whatever reports company A produced
[09:16] <arko> the country thing not so much
[09:17] <eroomde> so the poeple in company A never really get the chance to become experts
[09:17] <arko> ah!
[09:17] <eroomde> no one does
[09:17] <arko> budgets man
[09:17] <eroomde> and there's so much value to doing stuff a few times and refining it each time
[09:17] <eroomde> like the JPL eld team
[09:17] <arko> huge value
[09:17] <arko> i was about to say
[09:17] <arko> our reliability team as well
[09:17] <eroomde> has been pete theirsinger and bob manning and tom riv and so on, since pathfinder
[09:17] <eroomde> they're now a crack team
[09:18] <arko> they are heros
[09:18] <arko> stigs
[09:18] <arko> if you will
[09:18] <eroomde> :)
[09:18] <arko> the less famous folks are the reliability and testing folks
[09:18] <arko> im telling you
[09:18] <eroomde> but if that was in ESA, tey would say 'well done UK team for Huygens. Now we're going to give this firm of italians a go with exomars edl'
[09:18] <arko> some of them were interns during viking
[09:18] <eroomde> which is exactly what happened
[09:19] <arko> WTF
[09:19] <arko> !
[09:19] <arko> ?!
[09:19] <arko> what
[09:19] <arko> not, hey great work, here's another
[09:19] <arko> ?!
[09:19] <arko> why!?
[09:19] <arko> ok, here at nasa it's totally not like that
[09:19] <eroomde> because italy spends loads on esa
[09:19] <arko> >_<
[09:19] <eroomde> as a proportiona of their gdp
[09:19] <eroomde> ignoring the fact they're all underwritten by the rest of europe
[09:19] <arko> here if you do well, you get the next contrant likely
[09:19] <arko> contract*
[09:19] <eroomde> and they're literally hopeless
[09:20] <arko> this whole "do whats fair" thing can be stupid
[09:20] <eroomde> corrupt, childish, incompetant
[09:20] <arko> not a way to run a space program
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[09:20] <eroomde> so, i'm pleased the UK has paid more to esa
[09:20] <eroomde> we will have to accept that lots of it will go straight back to astrium
[09:21] <eroomde> but basically the only thing i care about is that more of it trickles down to good small companies
[09:21] <eroomde> and reaction engines, of course
[09:21] <arko> perfect, revise, make it reliable, and they will come
[09:21] <arko> i loved the small company i use to work for honestly
[09:21] <arko> jpl is great, but it was a family
[09:22] <arko> however, jpl kinda has these small "families"
[09:22] <arko> edl team is one of them
[09:22] <arko> robotics folks
[09:22] <arko> reliability folks
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[09:22] <arko> mission concepts folks
[09:22] <arko> etc
[09:22] <eroomde> yeah
[09:22] <arko> its cool, but not the same
[09:22] <eroomde> like a uni department
[09:23] <arko> yeah!
[09:23] <eroomde> lots of small labs
[09:23] <arko> yep
[09:23] <arko> alright, i need to go hiking tomorrow morning
[09:23] <arko> time to get rest
[09:23] <arko> good chatting this fine morning
[09:23] <eroomde> yeah, i need to get to westcott
[09:23] <eroomde> cusf turning up
[09:23] <eroomde> and u
[09:23] <arko> heh
[09:23] <eroomde> have fun hiking
[09:24] <arko> will do
[09:24] <arko> glad we agree on this budget/company stuff
[09:24] <eroomde> :)
[09:24] <arko> im use to govt folks who will get in heated debates
[09:24] <arko> bah
[09:24] <arko> better things to think about now
[09:24] <eroomde> no question for me
[09:24] <arko> haha
[09:24] <eroomde> skunkworks all the way
[09:24] <arko> :P
[09:25] <arko> night!
[09:25] <eroomde> cya
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[10:51] <SP9UOB> hi all
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[10:54] <eroomde> hi SP9UOB
[11:00] <Upu> ping G7PMO_Kev
[11:00] <Upu> morning SP9UOB
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[11:04] <SP9UOB> morning UPU
[11:11] <griffonbot> Received email: Tomasz Brol "Re: [UKHAS] Hwoyee 1600g early burst."
[11:11] <x-f> howdy
[11:12] <x-f> SP9UOB, could you briefly explain, what do you need to do to launch a HAB in Poland? what permissions do you need?
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[11:13] <SP9UOB> x-f: just need permission of PANSA (Polish Air Navigation Agency)
[11:14] <x-f> you contact only them?
[11:14] <SP9UOB> x-f: also some limits apply (3 kg in one package, 230N beraking strength, 13 g/cm^2 dentisity etc...)
[11:14] <SP9UOB> yes, and one hour before launch i must confirm via phone to local ATC
[11:15] <x-f> right
[11:15] <x-f> does that permission cost you anything?
[11:15] <SP9UOB> no
[11:15] <x-f> heh
[11:15] <x-f> thanks
[11:16] <SP9UOB> x-f: Lativa? Is there otrher regulations in Your Country ?
[11:16] <SP9UOB> also we have no exclusion for pico flights
[11:18] <x-f> SP9UOB, yesterday i found out how much it would cost to launch a HAB in Latvia - we need permission from CAA and a forecast of the flight from our met-office that is needed to air controllers. they ask for that forecast 770 lats (more than 800 GBP)
[11:18] <eroomde> ouch!
[11:18] <x-f> yeah.
[11:18] <eroomde> we have our own forecast software
[11:18] <eroomde> it's probably better than theirs
[11:19] <x-f> habhub.org/predict, i know
[11:19] <x-f> i've been telling them
[11:20] <x-f> well, i've been fighting with the CAA since February, and i'm not done yet
[11:21] <x-f> we've already lost the first place to some morons, claiming to launch "the first cosmic sonde", but they cheated, we want to do this the right way
[11:24] <SP9UOB> x-f: this also apply to meteorological balloon ?
[11:24] <SP9UOB> x-f: maybe only to heavy balloons ?
[11:24] <x-f> SP9UOB, it applies to all balloons
[11:25] <SP9UOB> x-f: what a pity
[11:27] <x-f> i'm a little upset now, but we can't launch in winter anyway, so there's time till spring
[11:27] <x-f> we'll get it in the air eventually, i won't give up.
[11:28] <x-f> besides - it's ridiculous.
[11:28] <Darkside> so the payload we're launching for usyd is called i-INSPIRE
[11:28] <Darkside> bloody researchers and their backronyms
[11:29] <SP9UOB> Darkside: iPAD based ;-) ?
[11:29] <Darkside> lol
[11:29] <Darkside> no
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[11:45] <kokey> afsk, using a built in mode?
[11:49] <SP9UOB> x-f: my last balloon drift over Ukraine
[11:49] <SP9UOB> no permissions at all ;-)
[11:49] <SP9UOB> from ukrainian CAA
[11:50] <SP9UOB> http://goo.gl/maps/ZK7Aq
[11:52] <craag> Wow, didn't know you could do that with google maps. Very cool.
[11:52] <SP9UOB> x-f: it was a good float: http://sp9uob.verox.pl/balon/sp9uob-2_altitude.png
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[11:53] <SP9UOB> craag: i've just export the data from habhub and then use gpsbabel to convert
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[11:54] <craag> SP9UOB: Yeah, I'd done the same into a .kmz and used it with google earth. Didn't know you could just put the URL of the file into google maps though!
[11:55] <SP9UOB> craag: :-) Now You know :-)
[11:55] <craag> :D
[11:57] <SP9UOB> i want to put also altitude and time - but actually dont know how to do it
[11:59] <craag> I don't think Maps can do altitude, you need Earth for that, don't know about time though. Screenshot from Earth: http://goo.gl/gVVhc
[12:00] <SP9UOB> craag: cool :-)
[12:01] <craag> Only a pico, so a far less impressive flight than yours!
[12:02] <SP9UOB> it was HF-tracker ceceived in Canada :-)
[12:02] <SP9UOB> received
[12:02] <SP9UOB> but battreies died after 10 hours
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[12:05] <craag> Yeah I was watching! I tried listening on my HF rx here in Southampton but my antenna wasn't good enough. It was a shame about the batteries when it definitely solved the range problem of a floater!
[12:06] <SP9UOB> craag: i have solar power ready for the next floater: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x31idSQcdVE
[12:07] <craag> Just solar and some big capacitors?
[12:07] <SP9UOB> right. and "night time" mode
[12:08] <SP9UOB> turn of gps, cpu to sleep mode", 5 minutes between transmissions
[12:08] <SP9UOB> I have 300Farads capacitor :-)
[12:09] <SP9UOB> should be enough for all night in the summer
[12:09] <SP9UOB> i also consider to add 2 or 3 Energizer lithium for night mode
[12:10] <craag> Awesome. I'm putting together an ideal diode circuit, with solar on one side and a standard Lithium 3V on the other. 'Sleep' mode with 10 minute transmissions when there's no solar and running off lithium, goes 100% when there is.
[12:10] <craag> 300 farad is a lot..
[12:11] <SP9UOB> yup... thats was the first time when i saw capacitor charging some minutes with 5.5 Ampere :-)
[12:12] <craag> Wow, well I guess you've got all day for the solar panel to charge it up!
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[12:12] <SP9UOB> craag: i have 8 Watts solar panels
[12:12] <griffonbot> Received email: Steve Aerospace "Re: [UKHAS] Hwoyee 1600g early burst."
[12:12] <craag> Oh ok.. maybe not then! How big are they?
[12:12] <SP9UOB> not so bad, they give 8 amps @0.5V
[12:13] <SP9UOB> 15x15 cm
[12:13] <craag> That's impressive!
[12:13] <SP9UOB> 3 of them is enough - 1.5V
[12:13] <SP9UOB> wait
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[12:14] <SP9UOB> http://allegro.pl/ogniwo-sloneczne-ja-solar-a-4-54-w-najmocniejsze-i2783684783.html
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[12:15] <SP9UOB> about 2 Euro/piece
[12:15] <SP9UOB> 12 grams each
[12:15] <craag> That is a lot of current!
[12:15] <SP9UOB> brb - lunch
[12:19] <SP9UOB> craag: on high altitude even more :-)
[12:20] <craag> Yeah, less gas to block the light!
[12:21] <SP9UOB> then step-up on MAX1709 and we have enough power for everything (MAX1709 can give 20Watts !!!)
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[12:24] <craag> That is a lot of power to have available.. Run some heaters just to keep everything toasty?!!
[12:25] <SP9UOB> or microwave oven ;-)
[12:25] <craag> Lol
[12:26] <SP9UOB> heaters can be a good idea
[12:27] <SP9UOB> 4 cells - 31x31 cm roof - 16 watts peak power
[12:29] <craag> It'll be great to see it in action, when are you planning to launch?
[12:31] <SP9UOB> ealy spring - i think
[12:31] <SP9UOB> early
[12:32] <SP9UOB> tracker with psk31 or 63
[12:32] <Darkside> SP9UOB: you were using a DDS to do PSK31, right?
[12:32] <SP9UOB> Darkside: no
[12:32] <Darkside> oh? what are you generating it with?
[12:32] <SP9UOB> just zero-if DSB conversion
[12:32] <Darkside> ahh ok
[12:33] <SP9UOB> NE612 does the job :-)
[12:33] <Darkside> i've been working on code to do clean psk using a DDS
[12:33] <SP9UOB> also for receiver (remote commands). Al the rest on dsPIC
[12:33] <Darkside> well, cleaner than hard-keyed PSK anyway
[12:33] <SP9UOB> Darkside: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKm-Hswbau0&feature=relmfu
[12:33] <Darkside> k
[12:33] <Darkside> i need to sleep. launch tomorrow
[12:34] <SP9UOB> Darkside: good night ( its 13:34 here :-) )
[12:34] <SP9UOB> Darkside: also DSB jhave one advantage
[12:35] <SP9UOB> when qrm is on one side band, then left another to receive
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[12:54] <New2Balloon> costyn, any memories on the GPS error? I've tried everything my limited knowledge can try
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[13:37] <craag> Is there a guide around to doing the four-string payload box cradle that I've seen on some of the flights?
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[14:17] <Laurenceb_> any launches coming up?
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[14:44] <jdtanner> We might be launching in December if we can get our act together ;)
[14:45] <jdtanner> (by which I mean kicking me in the arse)
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[14:48] <jdtanner> That launch will happen from just outside Bakewell in the Peak District
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[15:24] <jdtanner> Cool, PWM is dead easy to get up and running&a lot less faffing ;)
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[16:09] <jcoxon> afternoon all
[16:10] <New2Balloon> jcoxon, afternoon... were you helping me the other day with a GPS connecting to terminal issue?
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[16:13] <jcoxon> New2Balloon, quite possibly
[16:13] <jcoxon> and success?
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[16:15] <New2Balloon> Yes.. Got it talking too the terminal window direct and through no skill whatsoever (I don't have any), but butchering other peoples code I've got the Arduino receiving the GPS and transmitting it onto a terminal windo so getting there :)
[16:16] <jcoxon> good good
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[16:16] <New2Balloon> it is pure luck... no judgement :D
[16:17] <DrLuke> maybe it was subconcious judgement?
[16:17] <DrLuke> But I guess we'll only understand that when we realize that there's no spoon...
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[16:18] <New2Balloon> DrLuke, you maybe right
[16:21] <New2Balloon> Just got to try and thin out the $GPGGA string and leave everything else of it... Any suggestions
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[16:22] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[16:25] <cuddykid> New2Balloon: "butchering other peoples code" haha :D - that's how I started! Just make sure you thoroughly test before flight
[16:27] <New2Balloon> cuddykid, :D that's months off... All I have it doing is echoing strings :D
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[16:27] <cuddykid> making progress
[16:28] <cuddykid> once you've retrieve the strings and got everything talking, you've done the hardest bti
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[16:44] <jcoxon> ping Upu
[16:44] <Upu> afternoon
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[16:45] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[16:45] <Upu> hi lunar
[16:45] <jcoxon> Upu, got some intereting code
[16:46] <jcoxon> for you
[16:46] <jcoxon> code that allows an avr to read its own Vcc voltage
[16:46] <Upu> interesting
[16:46] <Upu> link ?
[16:48] <jcoxon> http://jeelabs.org/2012/05/04/measuring-vcc-via-the-bandgap/
[16:48] <jcoxon> say we are running at 1.8v
[16:48] <jcoxon> and it reads 1.6v then it can stop txing as it knows that the supply is struggling
[16:49] <Upu> yrp
[16:49] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[16:49] <Upu> err
[16:49] <Upu> yep sorry :)
[16:49] <Upu> that would be useful
[16:49] <Upu> bookmarked thx
[16:50] <Upu> been working on the APRS payload
[16:50] <Upu> its coming along, going to be 2 boards clipped together
[16:50] <Upu> won't take up much more space than the existing one
[16:51] <jcoxon> so how are you powering the hx-1
[16:51] <jcoxon> ?
[16:53] <Upu> 5v step up
[16:53] <Upu> you can totally turn it off via the main board though
[16:53] <Upu> the regulator and HX1 En lines are both connected to GPIOs on the ┬ÁC
[16:54] <jcoxon> seperate uC?
[16:54] <jcoxon> or main one?
[16:54] <Upu> main one
[16:54] <jcoxon> running at 3.3v?
[16:54] <Upu> yep
[16:55] <Upu> this will be coming in about 10g
[16:55] <jcoxon> litihums powering the step up?
[16:55] <Upu> whatever you want
[16:55] <jcoxon> i'm wondering whether you can get enough from solar
[16:55] <jcoxon> might need some caps
[16:56] <Upu> well
[16:56] <Upu> that can be "off board"
[16:56] <jcoxon> sure
[16:56] <Upu> this should be enough to prove the point
[16:56] <jcoxon> :-)
[16:56] <Upu> and if you dangle this thing under a 1600g you can put as many batteries on as you want tbh
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[16:56] <jcoxon> indeed
[16:56] <Upu> what can a big foil lift ?
[16:58] <jcoxon> 40g
[16:58] <Upu> yeah I don't think you're going to get 2 AA's up with this
[16:58] <jcoxon> so i'm playing with supercaps again today
[16:58] <Upu> antenna(s) may be an issue
[16:59] <jcoxon> solar -- diode---supercaps--- regulator --- board
[16:59] <Upu> ok
[17:00] <Upu> any findings of interest ?
[17:01] <jcoxon> you ain't going to survive the night on supercaps
[17:02] <Upu> no I didn't think you would be able too
[17:02] <jcoxon> but you could do:
[17:03] <jcoxon> solar -- diode- supercaps -- boost to 5v -- Hx-1
[17:03] <jcoxon> and i reckon that would work well
[17:03] <Upu> ok
[17:03] <jcoxon> enough for a packet say once a minute
[17:03] <Upu> well the power is broken out so..
[17:03] <Upu> I'll add it to the board
[17:03] <Upu> anyway
[17:03] <Upu> need to shoot
[17:03] <Upu> off out this evening
[17:03] <jcoxon> have fun
[17:03] <jcoxon> i'll bbl
[17:03] <Upu> back much later on
[17:03] <Upu> cheers
[17:11] <SP9UOB> supercaps are good enough - 300F should survive night at the summer
[17:12] <jcoxon> not on a pico scale :-p
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[17:12] <SP9UOB> jcoxon: on "normal" payload
[17:12] <jcoxon> :-p
[17:14] <SP9UOB> with extreme power saving (ie: gps with backup battery and cut-off his power via mosfet)
[17:16] <SP9UOB> or - just one energizer lithium for the night
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[17:19] <Laurenceb_> why not use a rechargable battery?
[17:19] <Dan-K2VOL> ah a power discussion! my favorite
[17:20] <Laurenceb_> hehe
[17:20] <Dan-K2VOL> Laurenceb_ the best power to weight ratio are lithium rechargeables which must be heated above 0C to charge
[17:20] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[17:20] <Dan-K2VOL> but the sun should do that nicely
[17:20] <Laurenceb_> i was thinking about lithium iron phosphate
[17:20] <Laurenceb_> works at -20C
[17:20] <Laurenceb_> but a123 have gone bust
[17:20] <SP9UOB> well, i have 16 watts on roof of my capsule :-)
[17:20] <Dan-K2VOL> they discharge that low, but I've not found one that will charge below 0C
[17:21] <SP9UOB> so i can run heater :-)
[17:22] <Dan-K2VOL> heating isn't really a problem in the daytime, the solar heat is tremendous if you use a dark color
[17:22] <Dan-K2VOL> it's storing the energy to keep it warm at night
[17:22] <SP9UOB> but at night you cannot charge akkus
[17:25] <Dan-K2VOL> right, that's when you use the fully charged ones to power the heaters
[17:25] <Dan-K2VOL> if you want to keep a high power output
[17:27] <Dan-K2VOL> this is a very good charge controller circuit to use for lithium rechargeables: https://www.adafruit.com/products/390
[17:27] <Dan-K2VOL> designed to operate from a solar panel, and it's open source.
[17:28] <Dan-K2VOL> if you add a thermistor to it (there is a connector for it) it will properly wait to charge until the battery gets above 0C
[17:31] <SP9UOB> Dan-K2VOL: on Fox1 Satellite they use Sanyo NiCad
[17:31] <SP9UOB> charge 0-+45 C
[17:31] <SP9UOB> discharge: -20 - +60
[17:32] <Dan-K2VOL> NiCads have a much lower power density than lithium-ion, but they require no special circuitry to charge, and can usually be charged/operated at lower temps
[17:33] <SP9UOB> http://www.amsat.org/amsat-new/fox/
[17:33] <Dan-K2VOL> though your specs there match typical li-ion cells these days
[17:33] <Dan-K2VOL> for temps
[17:33] <SpeedEvil> charge density isn't that much lower. specific charge is.
[17:34] <SP9UOB> ok, but how long You want to stay "up there" 3-4? thats onle 2-3 nights
[17:34] <SP9UOB> only
[17:35] <Dan-K2VOL> I'm designing for indefinite operations, for superpressure flights
[17:37] <Dan-K2VOL> I mean power capacity to weight ratio for power density
[17:37] <Dan-K2VOL> what is charge density?
[17:37] <SP9UOB> so, i want to run on Solar at the day, and on energizer lithium at night
[17:38] <Dan-K2VOL> oh then just hook up a solar panel to the battery supply lines with shottkey diodes so they don't power eachother
[17:38] <SP9UOB> right
[17:38] <SP9UOB> solar+supercap and dry cells
[17:38] <Dan-K2VOL> however, many times the power density of the solar cell system is lower than an energizer cell
[17:39] <SP9UOB> with low drop shotky
[17:39] <Dan-K2VOL> until that cell would die, of course
[17:39] <Dan-K2VOL> but it depends on your power consumption and desired runtime
[17:39] <Dan-K2VOL> and solar panel weight
[17:40] <Dan-K2VOL> the Powerfilm panels are amazingly light
[17:41] <SP9UOB> dan: i have these: http://allegro.pl/ogniwo-sloneczne-ja-solar-a-4-54-w-najmocniejsze-i2783684783.html
[17:42] <SP9UOB> 12g each
[17:42] <SP9UOB> Dan-K2VOL: even if dry cell die, payload will wake after sunset
[17:43] <SP9UOB> sunrise
[17:43] <Dan-K2VOL> yes
[17:43] <SP9UOB> sorry for my english :-)
[17:43] <Dan-K2VOL> that's ok
[17:43] <Laurenceb_> if you dont want to charge at night...
[17:43] <Laurenceb_> which seems unlikey
[17:43] <Laurenceb_> then maybe lipo will work
[17:44] <SP9UOB> at night mode will be transmit with 5 minutes rate
[17:44] <SP9UOB> with deep sleep between
[17:44] <Dan-K2VOL> the current seems a bit high on those panels
[17:45] <SP9UOB> 1 Watt HF transmitter does the job - 6700 km :-)
[17:45] <Dan-K2VOL> and voltage very low
[17:46] <Dan-K2VOL> oh yes, spiritofknoxville.com flights flew across the ocean using 500milliwatts on 30m band
[17:46] <SP9UOB> Dan-K2VOL: i have done measurment in full sun - 7A short circuit
[17:46] <Dan-K2VOL> the voltage is so low though, you will need a good boost converter or a lot of those
[17:46] <SP9UOB> 4 cells in serial
[17:46] <SP9UOB> and max1709 as step-up
[17:46] <SP9UOB> it can give up to 20 watts !
[17:47] <Dan-K2VOL> nice, but your stepup wont
[17:47] <Dan-K2VOL> you'll loose a lot of power there won't you?
[17:47] <SP9UOB> just look in the datasheet :-)
[17:48] <Dan-K2VOL> hmm actually that's a nice looking stepup
[17:48] <SP9UOB> i dont need so much power but cutting the cells is horrible
[17:49] <Dan-K2VOL> here's the powerfilm for comparison, by the way: http://www.powerfilmsolar.com/products/oem/mpt6-150
[17:49] <Dan-K2VOL> 4.6g flexible 6 volt output
[17:49] <Dan-K2VOL> ready to input to the li-ion controller from adafruit
[17:50] <Dan-K2VOL> 100ma output
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[17:51] <SP9UOB> did they ship to Europe?
[17:51] <SP9UOB> does
[17:51] <SP9UOB> sorry for my grammar :-)
[17:52] <Dan-K2VOL> well, I'm not sure, actually we may need to buy in bulk
[17:52] <Dan-K2VOL> I'm willing to do that, I'm trying to get one of the adafruit chargers to try for a test flight
[17:57] <SP9UOB> Dan-K2VOL: spiritofknoxville.com NOTICE: This domain name expired on 11/12/2012 and is pending renewal or deletion.
[17:59] <Dan-K2VOL> whoops
[17:59] <Dan-K2VOL> thanks
[17:59] <Dan-K2VOL> almost lost that
[17:59] <Dan-K2VOL> been a long time since we did that one
[18:01] <SP9UOB> ;-)
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[18:01] <SP9UOB> that was RTTY telemetry ?
[18:02] <SP9UOB> im going to fly with psk31 over Asia
[18:02] <Dan-K2VOL> yeah
[18:02] <Dan-K2VOL> 5-bit too
[18:02] <Dan-K2VOL> baudot
[18:03] <Dan-K2VOL> a few people actually used old teletypes to record the telemetry
[18:06] <DrLuke> upu: do you mind sharing your TPS61201 footprint with me? :)
[18:07] <Upu> its in Sparkfun
[18:07] <Upu> TPS61200
[18:07] <Upu> actually
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[18:07] <Upu> I use the one in the Texas library
[18:08] <DrLuke> ah, thanks
[18:08] <Upu> Built into Eagle Texas -> TPS6120*
[18:08] <DrLuke> didn't know it was there (maybe if eagle's search wasn't that horrible)
[18:09] <Upu> call it a "search" is unfair on searches
[18:09] <Upu> btw : http://www.esawdust.com/blog/eagle/eaglepartsearch.php
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[18:09] <DrLuke> thanks!
[18:10] <DrLuke> It's kind of funny that an industry standard program has such an awful search...
[18:10] <DrLuke> even some simple regex would be better
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[18:22] <SP9UOB> Dan-K2VOL: i found this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTLMkgAvE2s
[18:22] <Dan-K2VOL> awww
[18:23] <Dan-K2VOL> good memories! I programmed that flight code :-)
[18:23] <Dan-K2VOL> good strong sig!
[18:23] <SP9UOB> Dan-K2VOL: this is my balloon received in Canada: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd0OU-LWoLA
[18:23] <SP9UOB> also my code :-)
[18:25] <Dan-K2VOL> thanks for the links!
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[18:29] <Dan-K2VOL> nice 10m reception there
[18:29] <Dan-K2VOL> I wish 10m had been open when we were flying those
[18:33] <SP9UOB> Walter K5WH also hear it in Texas: http://list-archives.org/2012/10/20/blt-stevens-com/sp9uob-in-float-at-110-000-ft/f/3151302588
[18:33] <SP9UOB> but cant decode
[18:35] <SP9UOB> next flight will be around 29.400 MHz in satellite segment
[18:35] <SP9UOB> less qrms
[18:36] <SP9UOB> BPSK also
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[19:08] <Lunar_Lander> hi DrLuke and wb Upu
[19:08] <DrLuke> hi
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[19:14] <griffonbot> Received email: gonzo_ "[UKHAS] Re: Cheap HAB base antennas available"
[19:53] <griffonbot> Received email: PhilipM "Re: [UKHAS] Pico Board"
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[20:14] <cos-> hm, i wonder if something like this could be useful for balloon telemetry http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__17205__FrSky_DHT_8ch_DIY_Telemetry_Compatible_Transmitter_Module.html
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[20:38] <fsphil> quiet evening
[20:39] <Lunar_Lander> some music https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2P0QhsEQ42g
[20:39] <joph> cos-, yes and no
[20:40] <griffonbot> Received email: "Re: [UKHAS] Pico Board"
[20:40] <fsphil> I didn't mean quiet that way Lunar_Lander :)
[20:40] <Lunar_Lander> xD
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[20:59] <x-f> nice song though
[21:00] <Lunar_Lander> yea
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[21:15] <craag> Is there any disadvantage in using 7n1 rtty rather than 7n2?
[21:17] <fsphil> at higher bitrates (>=300 baud) fldigi is more reliable with 2 stop bits
[21:17] <fsphil> at 50 baud it probably won't metter
[21:17] <fsphil> matter*
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[21:21] <craag> Ok thanks! Switching 8n2 to 7n1 should speed things up a bit.
[21:22] <fsphil> yea 8-bit doesn't make sense unless you're doing images
[21:23] <Dan-K2VOL> or binary compression
[21:23] <craag> mm, that's what I though.
[21:23] <craag> *thought
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[21:23] <Darkside> fsphil: it does make a bit of difference
[21:24] <fsphil> even at 50?
[21:24] <Darkside> just a bit
[21:24] <Dan-K2VOL> hahah
[21:24] <craag> lol
[21:24] <Darkside> (sorry)
[21:25] <fsphil> ok then, so 7n2 :)
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[21:25] <fsphil> I made a 4-bit character set a while back, if you're feeling experimental :)
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[21:26] <craag> Does it decode alright with fldigi?
[21:26] <fsphil> nope, not supported anywhere
[21:27] <craag> Oh. Maybe I'll give it a miss this time then!
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[21:28] <fsphil> the idea was to combine it with a convolution code
[21:28] <fsphil> but I never got to that point
[21:29] <Darkside> ok i'm heading off to the launch site
[21:29] <fsphil> good luck!
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[21:44] <arko> eroomde: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cj6qaHxwMOA&feature=youtube_gdata_player
[21:46] <SP9UOB> Darkside: have good flight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOQTi7Vx23k) ;-)
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[21:47] <arko> Go Darkside!
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[22:15] <EspacioCercano> Hey guys& what would be the best antenna to use with a Radiometrix HX1 on a HAB?
[22:18] <RG_LZ1DEV> whip or ground plane
[22:19] <RG_LZ1DEV> and by whip i mean, bazooka, fairly easy to make
[22:20] <EspacioCercano> thanks& I'm not really an expert& do you know where can I find schematics to build one?
[22:21] <EspacioCercano> I mean, I assume it has to have certain dimensions, right?
[22:21] <RG_LZ1DEV> yep
[22:21] <RG_LZ1DEV> there are lots of guides how to make either one
[22:21] <RG_LZ1DEV> for the bazooka i find this one to be best
[22:21] <RG_LZ1DEV> http://www.iw5edi.com/ham-radio/?the-vertical-bazooka-antenna,18
[22:22] <EspacioCercano> awesome! so it's not a dipole, right?
[22:24] <RG_LZ1DEV> essentially it is
[22:25] <fsphil> I used that style on my first flight for 434mhz, worked well
[22:25] <fsphil> you may need something to try to keep it straight
[22:26] <fsphil> as the payload spins, it might bend
[22:26] <RG_LZ1DEV> i uses a really flexible wire
[22:26] <RG_LZ1DEV> wire = coax
[22:27] <RG_LZ1DEV> i think at the end something like 5-6% of the packets didnt make
[22:27] <RG_LZ1DEV> but is probably due collision rather than the antenna :)
[22:28] <EspacioCercano> I see& what if I strap it to a long stick of balsa wood in order for it to stay straight?
[22:28] <RG_LZ1DEV> sure, just dont use anything a wire or anything metal
[22:29] <EspacioCercano> right
[22:29] <EspacioCercano> thanks guys!
[22:31] <fsphil> and nothing too stabby :)
[22:33] <RG_LZ1DEV> medieval hab of doom
[22:33] <EspacioCercano> lol
[22:34] <EspacioCercano> I would hope balsa wood to break up on impact, but I should test that :)
[22:36] <fsphil> if you don't fancy it landing on your head, then don't launch it :)
[22:37] <EspacioCercano> of course& hehe
[22:37] <EspacioCercano> another option would be putting some weight on the bottom
[22:38] <New2Balloon> I think I'd prefer the spear of the balsa rather than the fishing weight :D
[22:40] <EspacioCercano> lol, yes, probably :)
[22:42] <natrium42> needs a scientific study
[22:43] <griffonbot> Received email: gonzo_ "[UKHAS] Re: Cheap HAB base antennas available"
[22:44] <Lunar_Lander> hello natrium42 and EspacioCercano
[22:44] <natrium42> moin
[22:44] <EspacioCercano> hey Lunar_Lander :)
[22:45] <New2Balloon> on the antenna subject, I'm going to build a wooden boomed 7 element yagi for 434... Boom spread over 960mm. Suggestions for something cheaper than 3.5mm brass rod for the elements????
[22:45] <Lunar_Lander> hello New2Balloon
[22:47] <New2Balloon> hi L_L
[22:49] <gonzo___> my favourite method of making yagi's is to use a box sect ali tube for the boom. Cross drill for the 3/16ths ali rod elements to pass through and put a rivnut above the element in the boom to secure it
[22:49] <Lunar_Lander> and the balun?
[22:49] <gonzo___> very secure way and easilly disassembable
[22:50] <gonzo___> I use a folded dipole with a 4:1 coax balun
[22:51] <gonzo___> for low power or rx use, you can use the 1/10" ptfe coax. Far easier to coil up and solder
[22:53] <New2Balloon> like that... I'm planning to build it on a 15mm wooden dowel. Reason is so it can be split in the center use a 15mm push fit fitting https://www.cromwell.co.uk/images/product/JNG/292/JNG2921600K_0.jpg so it can be packed into my ali case
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[22:54] <gonzo___> not sure how robust it would be? Depands on the service you are going to put it through
[22:55] <New2Balloon> lightweight use and RX only... I was going to use the PTFE option - same as - http://www.mydarc.de/DK7ZB/start1.htm
[22:55] <gonzo___> shoudl be easy to use a split boom of ali box. Just het a smaller sect that will sleve down. Rivet it one side and bolt/wingnut on the other
[22:56] <gonzo___> not sure which one you are looking at
[22:57] <New2Balloon> sorry.. ABout half way down this page (no frames in this link) http://www.mydarc.de/DK7ZB/PVC-Yagis/PVC-details.htm
[22:57] <gonzo___> his seem to be 28ohm match. I prefer 50ohm (that is the yagi feed point, not the coax feed btw)
[22:58] <New2Balloon> mounting elements with pipe clips is genious
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[22:59] <gonzo___> I did start making one using tape measure elements, for portable use
[22:59] <gonzo___> and just stuff it down in a tuve to store
[22:59] <gonzo___> tube
[22:59] <gonzo___> but brought an arrow, so never finished it
[23:00] <New2Balloon> done that one :) and never really found it nearly robust enough.. that was on 2m
[23:01] <New2Balloon> made measuring elements easy though :D :D
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[23:06] <gonzo___> www.g0nzo.co.uk/misc/yagi/
[23:09] <gonzo___> You can mount the feed so it's totally attached to the matching box and make that removeable for /p use
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[23:09] <gonzo___> mine were built for long term outdoor installation
[23:10] <New2Balloon> Looks good. I thought it was a more permanent solution with the RG213 hanging off it
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[23:11] <gonzo___> rg316 was the coax I was suggesting for the balun. It's small enough to wind up tight. and it's ptfe so it will solder without the centre melting through the dielectric
[23:12] <New2Balloon> 4:1?
[23:13] <gonzo___> I really don't like the split dipole or gamma match feeds. not as robust as a good folded dipole
[23:13] <gonzo___> yep, the design for the yagi is dl6wu, which (that one) is a 50ohm at the feed point
[23:14] <gonzo___> a folded dipole gives you an ompeadence of 200ohm, so that is a 4:1 balun in the box
[23:15] <gonzo___> A pretty good online calculator for those yagi's (which I've used for all mine)
[23:15] <gonzo___> http://www.k7mem.com/Electronic_Notebook/antennas/yagi_vhf.html
[23:16] <gonzo___> they are moderate gain, so they are not sharply tuned.
[23:17] <New2Balloon> Thanks for the link, really useful
[23:17] <gonzo___> which means you can get away with little inaccuracies in building and it does not ruin the performance
[23:17] <gonzo___> I've built so many from magazine articles over the years amd all been dissapointing. these ones work
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[23:19] <New2Balloon> I'll give a folded one a go then.. Still end up splitting it for transport but as you say, ali is going to be more robust
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[23:21] <gonzo___> splitting the boom is ok. Would suggest making the feed in one piece and make the whole feed box removeable if you want a take-down antenna
[23:22] <New2Balloon> Ok, thats going to make life easier too for storage this end
[23:23] <gonzo___> instead of as my one has, with the folded feed going around the boom, you could ake it go back through the same box to reinfirce it
[23:24] <New2Balloon> that sounds good. whats the diameter of the ali rod for the elements on yours?
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[23:28] <gonzo___> think 5mm, or 3/16"
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[23:28] <New2Balloon> great ty
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[23:34] <x-f> is it just for me or the infobox on spacenear.us is veeery long?
[23:36] <SpeedEvil> looks on on chrome on nexus seven
[23:36] <fsphil> refresh
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[23:39] <x-f> looks the same
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[23:40] <Lunar_Lander> New2Balloon, where are you from btw?
[23:41] <New2Balloon> Isle of Wight B-)
[23:41] <Lunar_Lander> cool :)
[23:42] <Lunar_Lander> where Thrust2 was designed :)
[23:42] <Lunar_Lander> (the jet car)
[23:42] <New2Balloon> yep.. about 1/2mile from me
[23:42] <Lunar_Lander> :) does John Ackroyd still live there?
[23:44] <New2Balloon> Yes... Has a lot to do with an historic society here
[23:44] <New2Balloon> or did... not seen mention of his name for a while
[23:44] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[23:45] <Lunar_Lander> I was astonished to read that he worked on Balloons after Thrust2
[23:45] <Lunar_Lander> at least Richard Noble says that in his book
[23:45] <Lunar_Lander> I think on Richard Bransons Virgin Atlantic Challenger
[23:46] <New2Balloon> ah ha.. here you go http://woottonbridgeiow.org.uk/ackroyd/about.php
[23:46] <Lunar_Lander> thanks
[23:46] <gonzo___> just over the water from me New2Balloon
[23:47] <gonzo___> Poole
[23:47] <Lunar_Lander> awesome!
[23:47] <Lunar_Lander> I looked for a book on Bransons ocean balloons for years
[23:47] <New2Balloon> Are you G0... ? flight refuelling?
[23:47] <Lunar_Lander> as you probably know, he used pure hot-air balloons, no rozieres
[23:48] <Lunar_Lander> so he had to have such a big balloon for long range
[23:50] <Laurenceb_> ah launch
[23:51] <gonzo___> yep, g0nzo
[23:51] <gonzo___> not very creative nick!
[23:53] <New2Balloon> Ahh.. recognise the call from the FRARS site..
[23:53] <Lunar_Lander> New2Balloon, thank you!
[23:54] <New2Balloon> lunar_lander, no didn't know that about his balloon connections
[23:55] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[23:55] <cuddykid> just ordered a t-shirt with "while(!succeed) { try(); }" on it - oh dear :P
[23:56] <Darkside> balloon is up
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[00:00] --- Sun Nov 25 2012