highaltitude.log.20121122

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[00:31] <m0psi> !!! just got the tracker to work, sending test sentences!!! yeeeha! :-)
[00:31] <m0psi> now, i need to get some real data
[00:32] <m0psi> almost there
[00:40] <fsphil> excellent
[00:40] <m0psi> yeah, indeed
[00:40] <m0psi> you seem to be around when i make breakthroughs phil :-)
[00:40] <m0psi> you're not a lepricon are you?
[00:41] <m0psi> (sp?)
[00:42] <m0psi> leprechaun
[00:43] <fsphil> I'm too tall, they kicked me out
[00:44] <m0psi> ah, you should have used it as sales pitch, time to re-brand :-)
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[07:42] <costyn> morning
[07:43] <RG_LZ1DEV> We came up with a different solution at our last company, we made a bot that we could transfer the spammer to and let him talk to them for as long as they stayed on the line. Given how successful it was we opened it up for other peoples amusement.
[07:43] <RG_LZ1DEV> thats a quote
[07:45] <arko> it's almost morning here, so morning :)
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[07:56] <nosebleedkt> hi !
[07:56] <nosebleedkt> I have a social question to ask!
[07:57] <nosebleedkt> What is the age of retirenment in your countries? I want to compare with that of Greece so to make some conclusions.
[08:01] <x-f> morning
[08:01] <RG_LZ1DEV> http://www.itslenny.com/recording.php?file=c969235df6839ae39eb119d303bfa727
[08:01] <RG_LZ1DEV> this bot is just brilliant
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[08:06] <number10> uk 67 nosebleedkt
[08:06] <nosebleedkt> 67 ???????????
[08:06] <number10> retirement age
[08:06] <nosebleedkt> are you sure/.
[08:06] <nosebleedkt> ?
[08:06] <x-f> 65 in Latvia
[08:06] <number10> yes
[08:06] <nosebleedkt> LOL
[08:06] <number10> in greece its 35?
[08:06] <RG_LZ1DEV> 12 :P
[08:07] <nosebleedkt> until now its 60 here. Now with new laws it's done 62 and in some cases 67.
[08:07] <nosebleedkt> and everybody complains
[08:07] <nosebleedkt> and i just want to see how it is in other countries
[08:07] <nosebleedkt> because sometimes in this world i live, i feel that the outside world is far different
[08:08] <costyn> nosebleedkt: here it's 65 I think
[08:08] <nosebleedkt> omg
[08:08] <x-f> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retirement#Retirement_in_specific_countries
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[08:08] <x-f> 68 in UK according to that ^
[08:08] <costyn> nosebleedkt: but in 2021 it's going to 67
[08:09] <RG_LZ1DEV> nosebleedkt: neighbouring country over here
[08:09] <RG_LZ1DEV> range is from 63-65 afraik
[08:09] <nosebleedkt> RG ?
[08:09] <costyn> nosebleedkt: so you guys should stop complaining :)
[08:09] <RG_LZ1DEV> nosebleedkt: BG
[08:09] <nosebleedkt> oh yo :D
[08:10] <RG_LZ1DEV> think its 60-63 now, but it will raise over the next 5 years
[08:10] <nosebleedkt> costyn, yeah. My world needs to know what is also happening outside. Because here they think they are having worst laws than rest of the world
[08:12] <x-f> a noble deed
[08:12] <nosebleedkt> ah sorry, here now is 65.
[08:12] <nosebleedkt> and its going to be 67.
[08:14] <nosebleedkt> so still they shouldnt complain that much
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[09:33] <x-f> for RTTY - a bigger or a smaller shift is more reliable?
[09:43] <UpuWork> well I'd go for something in the middle liek 500
[09:43] <UpuWork> 300-600 is fine
[09:44] <kokey> gonzo___: you're not the same person on HN by any chance?
[09:45] <gonzo___> kokey, HN?? Probably not then!
[09:45] <x-f> thanks, Upu
[09:47] <kokey> gonzo___: ah yeah it's not you
[09:48] <gonzo___> probably not a completely original nick I suspect
[09:52] <natrium42> gonzo___: are you on HN?
[09:52] <natrium42> err, kokey
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[10:28] <kokey> natrium42: yup, I am
[10:30] <costyn> what is HN?
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[10:44] <kokey> hacker news
[10:45] <costyn> ah
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[10:52] <jcoxon> morning all
[10:52] <number10> morning
[10:52] <daveake> morning
[10:53] <daveake> I shall resume work on my Iridium module later. First job is to re-make the wires that our kitten chewed :)
[10:53] <jcoxon> eek
[10:53] <number10> did anyone hear the news story about the island that doesnt exists https://www.google.co.uk/maps -19.220396,159.935989
[10:53] <daveake> Neat cuts halfway along the wires
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[10:54] <jcoxon> oooo
[10:54] <jcoxon> secret island?
[10:55] <number10> its on charts but they couldnt find it http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/technology/technology-news/where-did-it-go-scientists-undiscover-pacific-island-20121122-29ro4.html
[10:57] Action: daveake updates his location in dl-fldigi to be -19.220396,159.935989
[10:57] <number10> lol
[10:58] <number10> going to test my nano payload duration today
[10:58] <russss> I assume the black bit in google maps satellite view is google automatically switching from their rendering of the seabed to satellite imagery
[10:58] <russss> so the black is actually the sea
[10:58] <russss> because there's nothing there
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[11:13] <number10> have you had a chance to test your aerial out yet jcoxon ?#
[11:15] <jcoxon> only for aprs
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[11:17] <jcoxon> not for a balloon flight
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[11:17] <jcoxon> my antenna is much better suited for flights to the south of me
[11:17] <gonzo___> brought a cheap UHF base antenna recently. Short white stick ex-pmr one
[11:18] <gonzo___> The guy has more. £20. Wonder if they would be of interest on HAB world?
[11:18] <number10> thats a bit of a shame as most tend to be to the north of you
[11:18] <jcoxon> number10, i've also done aprs via the ISS from it
[11:18] <number10> that must have been didficult with the timing
[11:19] <number10> what is the gain gonzo___ ?
[11:19] <jcoxon> need to really test it with a standard flight
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[11:20] <gonzo___> I opened mine up and it looks to be an end fed half wave. So gain is unity over a dipole (or 2.7dBi)
[11:24] <gonzo___> Expwect the pattern will eb similar to a J pole. So should be roughly horisantal with a slight uplift
[11:25] <jcoxon> ping eroomde
[11:25] <eroomde> pong jcoxon
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[11:32] <esculca> Hi everyone
[11:32] <UpuWork> hi there
[11:33] <esculca> greetings from Portugal
[11:33] <esculca> just joined the channel
[11:33] <esculca> I am building my hab right now
[11:33] <UpuWork> Welcome aboard not sure we've had anyone launch one in Portugal yet :)
[11:33] <esculca> so this irc channel does exist
[11:33] <esculca> :)
[11:33] <daveake> It does?
[11:33] <UpuWork> last time I checked yep
[11:33] <daveake> Damn
[11:33] Action: UpuWork pokes daveake
[11:34] <UpuWork> yep its real
[11:34] <daveake> ouch
[11:34] <esculca> no, actually in Portugal some guys already sent a couple of HABs
[11:34] <daveake> Yes it exists
[11:34] <esculca> hi Dave
[11:34] <esculca> This is Nuno
[11:34] <daveake> hiya
[11:34] <eroomde> i have heard of some hab stuff in portugal
[11:34] <esculca> just sent u a message on your website
[11:34] <UpuWork> so whats your HAB ? Using APRS ? RTTY ?
[11:34] <daveake> Ah, blog emailer :)
[11:34] <eroomde> can't think what it was now
[11:34] <esculca> yes, the blog emailer
[11:34] <esculca> :)
[11:34] <daveake> "Can the balloon go higher if you let gas out"
[11:34] <daveake> No
[11:34] <esculca> yeap
[11:34] <daveake> Just put the right amount in to start with
[11:34] <esculca> what do you think?
[11:35] <esculca> I am going to do that
[11:35] <esculca> but I like to think ahead
[11:35] <esculca> for future launches
[11:35] <UpuWork> always good
[11:35] <esculca> I've used irc in 1996
[11:35] <esculca> long time ago
[11:35] <esculca> in college
[11:36] <UpuWork> still the best chat medium imho
[11:36] <esculca> guess so
[11:36] <esculca> i use skype
[11:36] <esculca> but anyway
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[11:36] <esculca> so Dave
[11:37] <eroomde> i think some portugese company appeared out of nowehere to offer parachute drop testing services like what we did for esa
[11:37] <esculca> what do you think about realsing some of the helium?
[11:37] <eroomde> not heard of them since
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[11:37] <esculca> what portuguese company?
[11:37] <esculca> do you know the name?
[11:41] <UpuWork> Releasing some helium is complex and not really necessary unless you're trying to float
[11:41] <UpuWork> the balloon is disposable and you're not getting it back
[11:42] <esculca> i don't want to get it back
[11:42] <esculca> just want to go higher
[11:42] <UpuWork> keep it light then
[11:42] <esculca> :)
[11:42] <UpuWork> don't complicate things with valves
[11:42] <daveake> Use H2. Use a 1600 Hwoyee. Use the lightest payload you can. Cross your fingers.
[11:42] <esculca> ok
[11:42] <esculca> i bought a 1200 Hwoyee
[11:43] <esculca> i will send this first
[11:43] <daveake> The biggest variable is the balloon, so it's just luck from then on.
[11:43] <daveake> The 1200 seems good too
[11:43] <UpuWork> yeah 1200 with a light payload *should* get 40km
[11:44] <esculca> but in theory if we realease some HE it can go higher
[11:44] <daveake> Only if you put too much in to start with
[11:45] <UpuWork> no really
[11:45] <esculca> why not?
[11:45] <UpuWork> its a battle between expansion and lift
[11:45] <UpuWork> you let gas out, it comes down
[11:45] <esculca> not the whole gas
[11:45] <esculca> just some to avoid the burst so soon
[11:45] <costyn> but you're letting out lift capacity
[11:46] <UpuWork> all it will end up doing is floating
[11:46] <UpuWork> at best
[11:46] <esculca> you loose some lift but not all
[11:46] <UpuWork> and coming back down inflated at worst
[11:46] <UpuWork> also weight of the valves and equipment totally negates any effects if you're trying to get high
[11:46] <daveake> At which point you're in the same position as if you'd put a bit less in at launch
[11:46] <esculca> ?
[11:46] <UpuWork> I'll give you the super secret goign high formula :
[11:47] <UpuWork> 1600g Hwoyee balloon <100g payload 5.5m/s->6.0m/s ascent rate
[11:47] <UpuWork> there you go
[11:47] <daveake> There is a certain amount of gas to get the highest altitude with a particular balloon/payload weight. Just put that in to start with. Job done.
[11:47] <esculca> ok, i'll do that
[11:47] <UpuWork> are you aware of K.I.S.S ?
[11:47] <UpuWork> no
[11:48] <esculca> yes, dave is always remebering that to me
[11:48] Action: UpuWork slaps zeusbot
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[11:48] <daveake> If you add valves etc. first you're adding weight so you're reducing the max altitude, and second you're adding complexity so it'll probably go wrong.
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[11:48] <UpuWork> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle
[11:48] <esculca> well guys, gotta go now
[11:48] <esculca> have to go to work
[11:48] <costyn> esculca: HAB is like race cars: add lightness :)
[11:49] <esculca> catch you later
[11:49] <costyn> esculca: use the burst calculator to figure out how much gas you need
[11:49] <esculca> okay
[11:49] <esculca> but before i go
[11:50] <esculca> what are your plans in the near future to launch?
[11:50] <costyn> esculca: check the mailing list and the calendar
[11:50] <esculca> what mailing list?
[11:50] <costyn> esculca: one sec, I'll give you links
[11:50] <esculca> at UKHAS?
[11:51] <costyn> esculca: http://habitat.habhub.org/calendar/ <-- ical feed
[11:51] <esculca> looks like this hobby in the UK is very popular
[11:51] <craag> Mailing list: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!forum/ukhas
[11:51] <costyn> esculca: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!forum/ukhas
[11:51] <daveake> UK leads the world in HAB :p
[11:52] <esculca> and in so many other areas as well
[11:52] <esculca> do no underestimate portugal
[11:54] <m0psi> hi all, is it ok to connect 4 x AA batteries to the arduino on the external power socket (2.1mm)?
[11:54] <costyn> although there are people on here from other countries too: from the USA, I'm from the Netherlands, people from France, Germany, Bulgaria, Slovakia
[11:54] <daveake> yes
[11:55] <m0psi> cool
[11:57] <costyn> m0psi: although there are more efficient regulators than the arduino onboard regs
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[11:58] <m0psi> sure, our first project is a student of the KISS God
[11:58] <costyn> m0psi: hehe good :)
[11:58] <m0psi> so, we are keeping it simple :-)
[11:58] <costyn> m0psi: then just use the onboard reg
[11:58] <esculca> guys, gotta go
[11:58] <costyn> esculca: cya
[11:58] <m0psi> indeed
[11:58] <esculca> come back later in the evening
[11:58] <esculca> bye
[11:59] <m0psi> i'm nearly there with my tracker. I've made all the hardware bits
[11:59] <m0psi> all working.
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[11:59] <m0psi> one more piece of the software puzzle, and it's ready, apart of the testing etc.
[12:02] <costyn> m0psi: there's still debugging and troubleshooting on your path, I promise you :)
[12:03] <m0psi> i believe that, but at least the general shape is there
[12:03] <m0psi> building a house takes weeks to get the shape and more than double that to do the finishing :-)
[12:03] <m0psi> so, i have no illusions!
[12:06] <costyn> ok :) but troubleshooting is really good for learning stuff. you have to really get down and dirty with whats going on and figure out ways to pin down the problem. I find it very educational when stuff doesnt' work in 1 go :)
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[12:07] <gonzo___> if things work first time it makes nme feel very uneasy
[12:08] <m0psi> this is called conditioning :-)
[12:08] <m0psi> and yes, we've all been conditioned, by the many times it does NOT work first time
[12:10] <gonzo___> there are always bugs in the system, but working first time means that they are waiting for a really inconvenient time to show up.
[12:10] <m0psi> y, i like that better
[12:10] <gonzo___> prefer to find some silly ones along the way. makes me feel far happier
[12:12] <zyp> heh
[12:12] <costyn> gonzo___: you said... if there's nothing wrong, there's something very wrong which will show up later :)
[12:12] <costyn> i mean, 'you said it' :)
[12:12] <zyp> it's not like the presence of obvious bugs means you have less hard-to-find bugs
[12:13] <zyp> I'm inclined to argue that if you are inexperienced enough to make lots of obvious bugs, there is also a higher likelyness that you make deep hidden bugs
[12:14] <m0psi> i think i better go and find a sunshine gang somewhere elese. You lot a way too realistic!
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[12:17] <costyn> m0psi: :)
[12:18] <costyn> zyp: true, as a C n00b I've had some buffer overflows in my code which I (perhaps) would've not had if I were more experienced. Those were 'deep' for me :)
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[14:39] <Laurenceb> http://www.loon.org/
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[14:44] <Laurenceb> has to be read twice, once without the photosd
[14:48] <costyn> Laurenceb: hehehe
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[15:34] <griffonbot> Received email: gonzo_ "[UKHAS] Cheap HAB base antennas available"
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[16:00] <Laurenceb> http://www.blueled.co.uk/
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[16:02] <costyn> heh
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[16:03] <costyn> rule 34?
[16:04] <costyn> well not really, but this guy finds them more interesting than is healthy
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[16:04] <Laurenceb> i suspect that guy will never get laid
[16:05] <Laurenceb> so no rule 34 there
[16:05] <costyn> true
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[16:06] <jcoxon> Laurenceb, whatever happened to your crazy website?
[16:06] <Laurenceb> hehe
[16:06] <Laurenceb> no comment
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[16:21] <Monty__> A question guys.... I've been wondering about this for a while now.... how accurately can a burst altitude be planned, and achieved? For example, I believe the current record is 44379km; if for example, one wanted to hit 45km would they need to be extremely lucky, or just get their pre flight maths right?
[16:24] <number10> Monty__: variability in quality of the balloon plays some part
[16:24] <Monty__> OK...
[16:25] <Monty__> go on....
[16:26] <number10> I am sure the last few attempts at breaking the record would have loved to go to 45k I suspect all did the correct calculations - but some bursrt earlier than others
[16:26] <Monty__> Im guessing its largely luck based, or why is 44km the record?... surely someone would just do the math, use a "good quality" balloon and pip it by a coupe of k. No?
[16:27] <number10> I am not the expert as my highest went to 42.5K but it was heavy and did have a camera in it
[16:27] <eroomde> you aim for 44/45
[16:27] <eroomde> you invariably don;t get there
[16:27] <Monty__> Thats a fantastic achievement given the current record standings
[16:27] <eroomde> there are not a continuous range of balloon sizes off the shelf that let you just plug some numbers in and get the size you want
[16:27] <eroomde> you have limited options
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[16:28] <eroomde> people have realised that the howyee 1600g balloon is the one that performs the best
[16:28] <eroomde> so with that as a constraint, they design a payload and pick an ascent rate such that the simulations give it a reasonable change of being competitive
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[16:28] <Monty__> Is there a "no return" altitude where our payload will simply not return?
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[16:28] <eroomde> er
[16:28] <eroomde> well yeah i suppose
[16:29] <Monty__> spot the newbie?
[16:29] <eroomde> when you're out of the earths gravity well
[16:29] <mattbrejza> 33000km?
[16:29] <eroomde> sort of some distance beyond the orbit of the moon
[16:29] <mattbrejza> ok that assumes geostationary, might want to ignore
[16:29] <Monty__> So why then can we not go beyond 44k?
[16:30] <eroomde> air density
[16:30] <Monty__> regardless of ballon / payload etc config?
[16:30] <eroomde> no
[16:30] <eroomde> entirely dependent on balloon/payload config
[16:30] <eroomde> you could go higher
[16:30] <eroomde> if you could get a good enough balloon and a light enough payload and so on
[16:31] <Monty__> how?
[16:31] <Monty__> ok
[16:31] <eroomde> let me explain
[16:31] <eroomde> a balloon is a bag
[16:31] <Monty__> im with you so far...
[16:31] <eroomde> the bag is stretchy
[16:31] <eroomde> the bag can stretch up until some point
[16:31] <eroomde> at which time it will burst
[16:31] <eroomde> so we have this concept of a burst diameter
[16:32] <eroomde> or burst volume
[16:32] <eroomde> or whatever you like
[16:32] <Monty__> yep...
[16:32] <SpeedEvil> at some point, no amount of gas added or removed will make a payload less balloon go higher,
[16:32] <eroomde> so, this bag weighs something
[16:32] <eroomde> and also you are attaching a payload to this bag, and that weighs something
[16:32] <SpeedEvil> this is the hard limit for that balloon,
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[16:33] <SpeedEvil> hydrogen helps a tiny bit
[16:33] <eroomde> so,in order to ascend, we put a lighter-than-air gas into this bag, like helium or hydrogen
[16:33] <SpeedEvil> ankikometer?
[16:33] <SpeedEvil> a kilometer
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[16:33] <SpeedEvil> probably less.
[16:33] <eroomde> at sea level, about 1m^3 of helium will give you about 1kg of lift
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[16:33] <eroomde> you can work this out from the densities
[16:33] <eroomde> 1m^3 of air at sea level is about 1.22kg
[16:34] <SpeedEvil> oooh! isotopically pure protium!
[16:34] <eroomde> and 1m^3 of helium at sea level is about 0.2kg
[16:34] <SpeedEvil> it's the lift gas of the future
[16:34] <eroomde> so if you subtract one from the other, you get the lift
[16:34] <eroomde> right, so we need to put in an amount of helium into our bag whose lift is greater than the weight of the bag and the weight of the payload
[16:34] <eroomde> that means we'll have a net force upwards and the bag and its payload will ascend
[16:35] <SpeedEvil> the bouyancy remains constant all the way up, if you assume the air mixture is constant, and the pressure inside is zero.
[16:35] <eroomde> just concentrate on me for the time being and read the heckles later
[16:35] <Monty__> will do...
[16:35] <SpeedEvil> sorry :-)
[16:35] <Monty__> please, go on
[16:35] <SpeedEvil> above looks entirely sensible.
[16:35] <eroomde> now, inside the bag we have no trapped some number of molecules of helium
[16:36] <eroomde> now trapped*
[16:36] <eroomde> the molecules of helium weight less, for a given volume, than the molecules of air
[16:36] <eroomde> however, the helium inside the bag and the air outside the bag are at the same pressure
[16:37] <eroomde> different density, but same pressure
[16:37] <eroomde> we know this is true just by looking at it - if the air was at a higher pressure than the gas inside the bag, it would crush the bag
[16:37] <eroomde> but the bag just sits there inflated, so we know that the pressure on the inside is equal to the pressure on the outside
[16:38] <eroomde> i'm slightly ignoring the face that the elasticity of the bag is slightly squeezing the helium inside the bag, but it makes very very little difference to the pressure so we basically ignore it for the sake of the argument
[16:39] <eroomde> the key insight here is to realise that the entire time during our flight, the pressure of the gas inside the balloon tries to match the pressure of the gas (air) outside the balloon
[16:39] <eroomde> so, we have our bag of gas and a pyaload hanging from it, and we let go
[16:39] <eroomde> as the bag ascends, the atmospheric pressure drops
[16:40] <SpeedEvil> whee!
[16:40] <Monty__> heckler!
[16:40] <eroomde> so the gas (helium) inside the bag will also drop in pressure
[16:40] <eroomde> now, we have a fixed number of molecules of helium trapped inside the bag
[16:40] <eroomde> if you keep the number of molecules the same, but drop their pressure, then the volume has to increase
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[16:41] <eroomde> so the helium inside the bag wants to increase its volume to match the pressure outside the bag, that means it stretches the bag a bit
[16:41] <eroomde> because the bag has to accomodate this larger volume
[16:41] <eroomde> this continues as you carry on going up - the helium in the bag keeps pushing out the bag and stretching it to match the ever-decreasing outside pressure
[16:42] <eroomde> now, the bag cannot stretch forever, this isn;t scifi, it's just made of latex and so it will eventually stretch so far that it breaks
[16:42] <eroomde> and this is the mechanism that causes the balloons to burst
[16:43] <eroomde> so now you say 'well, i want to go higher, how can i do that?'
[16:43] <eroomde> well, the answer is to put fewer molecules of helou into the bag to begin with
[16:43] <Monty__> increase the burst volume attribute of the bag?
[16:43] <eroomde> or that yes
[16:43] <eroomde> but one-at-a-time
[16:43] <eroomde> back to fewer molecules
[16:44] <Monty__> but wont that cancel out by having a slower ascent rate?
[16:44] <eroomde> if you put fewer molecules in, then for a given burst volume in the balloon, the gas inside will have to get to an even lower pressure
[16:44] <eroomde> now the gas inside just matches the pressure of the gas outside
[16:44] <Monty__> ok...
[16:45] <eroomde> so the gas outside will also be at a lower pressure when the balloon bursts
[16:45] <eroomde> i.e., a higher altitude
[16:45] <eroomde> now, you're right, this also means you have less net positive lift
[16:45] <eroomde> and so a slower ascent rate
[16:46] <eroomde> and if you can on putting fewer and fewer molcules of gas in, you have a theoretically higher burst altitude
[16:46] <eroomde> but of course, you that's no use if you have less lift than the weight of the bag and the payload
[16:46] <eroomde> because it won't even take off
[16:47] <eroomde> so, that's why people go to crazy lengths to make leightweight payloads
[16:47] <Monty__> so, small balloon + large burst volume = very high flight?
[16:47] <eroomde> so they can put as little gas in as possible but still have positive lift
[16:47] <eroomde> so, in theory i think you understand it
[16:47] <Monty__> indeed
[16:47] <eroomde> i.e. the biggest burst volume balloon you can get
[16:47] <eroomde> and the lightest payload you can build
[16:47] <eroomde> and that gets you a higher altitude
[16:48] <eroomde> but, not all balloons you can buy off the shelf are created equal
[16:48] <eroomde> and we have found from experience that the Howyee 1600g balloons seem to have the best performance, i.e. how stretchy their latex is
[16:49] <eroomde> better performance than bigger balloons from the same range, such as the hoywee 2000g balloon
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[16:49] <eroomde> i should explain, the numbers refer to the weight of the latex used to make a balloon
[16:49] <Grumbleist> elon musk @ oxford, for anyone interested: http://www.oxfordmartin.ox.ac.uk/videos/view/211
[16:49] <eroomde> Grumbleist: it was a bit dull
[16:49] <Grumbleist> might want to try later tho, stream is getting hammered
[16:49] <eroomde> woul;dn't bother
[16:49] <Grumbleist> his delivery is quite hard work
[16:50] <Grumbleist> did you end up meeting him afterwards ?
[16:50] <eroomde> yep
[16:50] <Grumbleist> i like the idea of landing something on mars that would grow, if just to grab some headlines
[16:50] <eroomde> Monty__: so, for whatever reason, the factory makes higher quality balloons in their 1600g range than anything else that we've found
[16:51] <eroomde> so all the current record holders are on 1600g balloon i beleive
[16:51] <Grumbleist> i'm about 10 mins in...
[16:51] <eroomde> so the task then is to just build the lightest payload that you can to hang underneath it
[16:51] <eroomde> now, there is an added complication
[16:52] <daveake> top 16 I think are 1600s
[16:52] <eroomde> sometimes the strength of the latex is enough that the pressure of the helium trying to expand it from inside is not actually enough to overcome the yeild strength of the latex
[16:52] <eroomde> and so instead of bursting, the inside pressure building up compared to the outside
[16:53] <eroomde> because the volume is now fixed because the latex won't stretch anymore
[16:53] <eroomde> so, fixed volume, and increasing internal pressure, means that the difference in density between the inside gas and the outside gas actually starts to drop
[16:53] <eroomde> and its that difference in density that you rely on to get the bouyancy
[16:54] <eroomde> i.e. the lift
[16:54] <eroomde> so if you lift is reducing, you ascent rate is dropping
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[16:54] <eroomde> until eventually, you reach an equilibrium where you have no lift at all
[16:54] <eroomde> and it just stays there
[16:54] <eroomde> and this has happened to people quite a few times before
[16:54] <eroomde> their balloon just starts floating
[16:54] <eroomde> for hours and hours and hours
[16:54] <eroomde> and that's game over
[16:54] <Monty__> So, assuming you 're trying to achieve height, its preferable to use the smalle amount of helou. But this could mean a slower ascent rate. Other than taking a longer time to reach burst point, what consiquences could this have on the cross - country travel of the balloon?
[16:55] <SpeedEvil> and days!
[16:55] <eroomde> now, this usually happens when people go for really low ascent rates, like 2-3m/s
[16:55] <eroomde> people have found that ascent rates of 4-5m/s actually work better to ensure you go a bit higher and reach burst
[16:55] <SpeedEvil> one launch in the west coast of america accidentally ditched in the med.
[16:55] <eroomde> Monty__: so hopefully this last bit answers your question
[16:55] <SpeedEvil> about 6000 miles off target
[16:55] <Monty__> absolutely
[16:55] <eroomde> slower ascent at best means more time in the wind so more cross-country drift
[16:55] <eroomde> at worst it can float
[16:56] <Monty__> how do you know what your ascent rate will be?
[16:56] <eroomde> and stay up for potentially days
[16:56] <eroomde> and reach poland or whatever
[16:56] <eroomde> Monty__: you can calculate it using fluid dynamics
[16:56] <eroomde> or go to cusf.co.uk/calc
[16:56] <eroomde> where they have done all the hard work for you
[16:56] <Monty__> i like the sound of the online calc
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[16:56] <Monty__> fluid dynamics sounds less attractive
[16:57] <Monty__> call me fussy...
[16:57] <eroomde> s'ok, you and everyone else
[16:58] <Monty__> so, youre looking to achieve 4-5m/s, with as light a payload as you can, and a good quality balloon, with a good burst volume?...
[16:58] <eroomde> yeah
[16:58] <Monty__> I know so much more than I did 30 mins ago!
[16:58] <eroomde> generally the bigger the balloon the better, *in theory*
[16:59] <Monty__> but you said keep the volume small?
[16:59] <eroomde> because the volume inside the balloon increases faster than the weight of the balloon
[16:59] <eroomde> because the volume is proportional to the cube of the diameter, and the weight of latex is proportional to the surface area, which is proportional to the square of the diameter
[16:59] <Monty__> small volume.... big balloon - saggy ??
[16:59] <eroomde> ignore the small volume thing
[16:59] <eroomde> dunno where that came from
[16:59] <SpeedEvil> random spam. http://dx.com/p/cree-xr-e-q3-160lm-3-mode-white-light-zooming-headlamp-black-1-x-aa-14500-161856 this is truly excellent, bright, great spot, very nice 30 degree flood
[17:00] <Monty__> likely my misunderstanding earlier
[17:01] <eroomde> so *in theory* the bigger the balloon the better, because you get a larger burst volume for the weight of stuff thew helium is having to lift
[17:01] <eroomde> but in practice, the larger wether balloons seem to have more defects and manufacturing variability
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[17:01] <eroomde> so as i say, people have found the Howyee 1600 to be about the most reliable
[17:02] <Monty__> and they'll fill it to achieve 4-5m/s?
[17:02] <eroomde> yeah
[17:02] <Monty__> great
[17:02] <eroomde> now, there is definitely some mileage in the aplliance of science to figuring out exactly how much you need to overcome the floating problem
[17:03] <eroomde> and so find the very lowest ascent rate you could get away with
[17:03] <eroomde> but really it's quite hard to actually fill the balloon accurately enough
[17:03] <SpeedEvil> it would be awesome if someone would measure burst delta-p's, but nobody has, yet.
[17:04] <nick_> Does anyone fill using a measurement of the pressure in the balloon?
[17:04] <nick_> Or everyone just does the water lifting thing?
[17:04] <SpeedEvil> no
[17:05] <SpeedEvil> pressure tells you little when it's in the elastic regime.
[17:05] <nick_> I suppose you could upgrade the water lifting thing by having a bottle with too much water, and putting it on relatively accurate scales.
[17:05] <SpeedEvil> the delta pressure falls rapidly to a low level, and then rises before burst
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[17:05] <nick_> I mean just to accurately fill the balloon.
[17:06] <SpeedEvil> looking like an assymetric bathtub with regards to diameter
[17:06] <SpeedEvil> an additional problem is that balloons have nonzero aerodynamic lift in crosswinds,
[17:07] <SpeedEvil> which makes measuring very accurately at launch a problem
[17:07] <Laurenceb> also the gas temperature changes
[17:07] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[17:07] <nick_> Oh yeah, I forgot about the wind problem.
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[17:07] <SpeedEvil> and the balloon behaviour probably varies with temperature, to a degree
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[17:08] <nick_> Does the high altitude temperature vary much?
[17:08] <nick_> Over time/location, I mean, not over as a function of height.
[17:09] <SpeedEvil> a little, yes
[17:10] <SpeedEvil> generally, it's fair to call it chilly.
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[17:24] <m0psi> hi Randomskk, you there?
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[17:33] <lukesurl1> Hello!
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[17:45] <Laurenceb> http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/processor-microcontroller-development-kits/7692091/?searchTerm=stm32f3&relevancy-data=636F3D3226696E3D4931384E4B6E6F776E41734D504E266C753D656E266D6D3D6D61746368616C6C7061727469616C26706D3D5E5C772B2426706F3D313326736E3D592673743D4D414E5F504152545F4E554D424552267573743D73746D333266332677633D424F544826
[17:45] <Laurenceb> one in stock
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[17:47] <lukesurl1> Anybody in?
[17:48] <RG_LZ1DEV> yes
[17:50] <SpeedEvil> no
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[17:55] daveake (~Dave@daveake.plus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[17:55] <lukesurl1> Ahoy there!
[17:56] <lukesurl1> We've just started a high-altitude balloon club at the University of East Anglia
[17:56] number10 (569e1aa0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.158.26.160) joined #highaltitude.
[17:56] <lukesurl1> 1st launch on 01/12/12
[17:56] <SpeedEvil> you have permission?
[17:56] <SpeedEvil> from the CAA?
[17:56] <lukesurl1> CAA permission granted
[17:57] <SpeedEvil> :-)
[17:57] <lukesurl1> Annoyingly UEA is in Norwich, which means we're having to travel a bit inland to launch
[17:57] <lukesurl1> Lest we get blown into the North Sea
[17:58] <LazyLeopard> Ah, yes... Many a HAB has flown over Norwich and ditched in the briney... ;)
[17:59] <lukesurl1> We've been using Cambridge's predictor to guess where it'll go
[17:59] <lukesurl1> http://habhub.org/predict/#!/uuid=5e730c2e0503ffdf3c0afaf026d322480192ca39
[17:59] <number10> we could do with some trackers in norwich :)
[18:00] <lukesurl1> Our first launch is really a 'shakedown' launch, but we'd like to get it back if we can
[18:01] <lukesurl1> Predicting what happens to the jetstream ten day from now is pretty difficult it seems.
[18:02] <lukesurl1> However I'm surprised at how far it seems to go! Is that path fairly likely? (I know a winter flight isn't the calmest of seasons!)
[18:03] <daveake> Your ascent rate is waaay too low
[18:03] <daveake> Try 5m/s
[18:04] <lukesurl1> And number10, I'm sure a bunch of us would be happy to help track things over Norfolk!
[18:05] <lukesurl1> Guess we need to be conservative about the payload mass huh?
[18:05] <daveake> Well it's good to keep that down, because the heavier the payload the more gas you need.
[18:05] <eroomde> what is your payload mass lukesurl1 ?
[18:06] <lukesurl1> Our baloon is a Kaymont 1000
[18:06] <daveake> And heavier payloads need larger 'chutes, and larger balloons
[18:06] <lukesurl1> Our payload? I'll have to check with the guy who's building it
[18:06] <eroomde> ballpark?
[18:06] <lukesurl1> I think a kilo or so
[18:07] <eroomde> s'ok
[18:07] <daveake> Roughly then, you'll be looking at 30,000 metres and 5m/s
[18:08] <lukesurl1> Ah! I just entered some figures for an arbitrary day and it lands exactly on Stansted Airport :P
[18:08] <daveake> yeah, don't do that :)
[18:09] <lukesurl1> Are guy Cambridge balloonists?
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[18:10] <lukesurl1> Sorry, are you guys Cambridge balloonists?
[18:10] <daveake> some here are. not me
[18:10] <lukesurl1> It was Jon Sowman who pointed me here
[18:11] <lukesurl1> I was wondering where launches from Cambridge typically land?
[18:11] <lukesurl1> We kinda ruled-out anywhere that far east
[18:12] <daveake> It varies. A lot.
[18:13] <lukesurl1> How high do you go?
[18:13] <SpeedEvil> the sea is a less common destination nowadays.
[18:14] <SpeedEvil> 44km.
[18:15] <lukesurl1> Wow. If you can launch that high from that far east and not end up in the drink (most of the time), we might consider launching from closer to home in future!
[18:16] <daveake> 44km this time of year is rather likely to end up in the drink
[18:16] <SpeedEvil> yeah.
[18:16] <SpeedEvil> or Poland.
[18:16] <lukesurl1> Heh... 30km for us should be sufficient.
[18:17] <lukesurl1> A December launch is more impatience on our part more than anything else
[18:17] <SpeedEvil> what's in the payload?
[18:17] <lukesurl1> A couple of cameras
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[18:18] <daveake> tracking?
[18:18] <lukesurl1> Radiosonde
[18:18] <lukesurl1> GPS
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[18:21] <lukesurl1> Cool, I'll get the box designer man to get our mass down as much as possible.
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[19:18] <Gadget-Mac> Evening all
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[19:19] <Robert_M0RJX> evening all
[19:20] <Robert_M0RJX> Upu, is going to be here in 10 mins
[19:20] <Gadget-Mac> Robert_M0RJX: Is this good ? :)
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[19:20] <daveake> Is he bringing Whiskey?
[19:21] <Gadget-Mac> Ah, daveake, you might be able to answer this one
[19:21] <daveake> oh ...?
[19:21] <Robert_M0RJX> Hopefully not as he's driving home
[19:21] <daveake> :)
[19:21] <Gadget-Mac> Anyone been able to autotrack a HAB with a ham satellite setup ?
[19:22] <Robert_M0RJX> I need to start getting pics together for a calendar
[19:22] <daveake> You might want to limit the number of entries per entrant, otherwise I'll be sending loads
[19:23] <Robert_M0RJX> :-)
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[19:26] <griffonbot> Received email: Steve Aerospace "[UKHAS] Hwoyee 1600g early burst."
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[19:52] <joph> http://dx.com/p/fk-a8r-mini-latitude-longitude-gps-locator-tracker-monitor-850-900-1800-1900mhz-168496 <<< emergency addon, maybe the 1800m could be a problem
[19:56] <griffonbot> Received email: Steve Aerospace "[UKHAS] BOC Helium Regulator - product recall"
[20:08] <SpeedEvil> http://dx.com/p/cree-xr-e-q3-160lm-3-mode-white-light-zooming-headlamp-black-1-x-aa-14500-161856 if you need to round out your DX order. (just been doing stuff outside)
[20:08] <SpeedEvil> awesome
[20:09] <griffonbot> Received email: "Re: [UKHAS] Hwoyee 1600g early burst."
[20:11] <griffonbot> Received email: "Re: [UKHAS] BOC Helium Regulator - product recall"
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[20:26] Action: Laurenceb_ is cold and wet :(
[20:26] <Laurenceb_> weather is horrible
[20:26] <jcoxon> been outside?
[20:26] <SpeedEvil> grr,
[20:26] <SpeedEvil> cooking fail.
[20:27] <SpeedEvil> yes put potatoes in to bake.
[20:27] <SpeedEvil> but also turned cooker off.
[20:27] <Laurenceb_> yes, just walked about 2 miles
[20:28] <SpeedEvil> for reasons other than enjoying the bracing night air?
[20:31] <griffonbot> Received email: David Akerman "Re: [UKHAS] BOC Helium Regulator - product recall"
[20:32] <natrium42> 20:26 * Laurenceb_ is cold and wet :(
[20:32] <natrium42> isn't that pretty standard in britain?
[20:33] <daveake> only from september to june
[20:33] <daveake> and sometimes july and august too
[20:39] <griffonbot> Received email: "Re: [UKHAS] BOC Helium Regulator - product recall"
[20:40] <x-f> birds go to warmer places, maybe we should take them as a good example how to live
[20:41] <Laurenceb_> heh
[20:41] <Laurenceb_> missed the bus from work
[20:41] <Laurenceb_> i think i need to find a new job anyway
[20:42] <Laurenceb_> im convinced the boss has aspergers or something
[20:42] <Laurenceb_> had to spend ages telling him again and again how various people were taking advantage of him, and he just couldnt see it
[20:49] <SpeedEvil> the moral of the story is clear.
[20:49] <SpeedEvil> start doing it too!
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[20:56] Nick change: Gadget-Mac_ -> Gadget-Mac
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[21:19] <eroomde> this susan boyle twitter hashtag is just too good
[21:19] <natrium42> lol
[21:19] <natrium42> yes
[21:20] <eroomde> you can;t make it up
[21:20] <Laurenceb_> http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/64325000/jpg/_64325017_64325016.jpg
[21:20] <Laurenceb_> your fedex deliveries have arrived
[21:21] <natrium42> sign here, please
[21:21] <SpeedEvil> I am following a member of the Boyle family.
[21:22] <eroomde> frankie?
[21:22] <SpeedEvil> it's not Susan.
[21:22] <SpeedEvil> yeah.
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[21:44] <mrShrimp> Hi! Is anyone here?
[21:46] <Upu> hey mrShrimp
[21:46] <mrShrimp> Hi Upu!
[21:47] <mrShrimp> I have a question about building a quarter wave ground plane.
[21:47] <mrShrimp> Do the radials need to be oriented to match the impedance of the coax?
[21:47] <mrShrimp> or does it not make a noticable difference?
[21:47] <Upu> I think in theory they should be bent back about 45'
[21:48] <Upu> in practice most people have them sticking out at 90'
[21:48] <mrShrimp> 90' would be easier to make
[21:49] <Upu> it is
[21:49] <mrShrimp> but it would give a 20ohm impedance on the antenna
[21:49] <mrShrimp> according to this and other graphs: http://www.hamuniverse.com/w5alt14wavegroundplanevert.html
[21:50] <Upu> maths...
[21:50] <Upu> practice = 90 works
[21:51] <mrShrimp> Ok
[21:53] <mrShrimp> What would you say about copper vs aluminum for the wire of the antenna?
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[21:55] <eroomde> aluminium is a bit specialist
[21:55] <jcoxon> evening all
[21:56] <eroomde> and it's annoying to solder
[21:56] <eroomde> just use copper
[21:56] <eroomde> hi jcoxon
[21:59] <Upu> just copper mrShrimp
[22:00] <griffonbot> Received email: Steve Aerospace "Re: [UKHAS] Hwoyee 1600g early burst."
[22:03] <mrShrimp> hm
[22:03] <mrShrimp> I need to get my hands on some then
[22:04] <mrShrimp> Thank you!
[22:04] <eroomde> copper wire is a useful thing to have around
[22:13] <griffonbot> Received email: "Re: [UKHAS] Hwoyee 1600g early burst."
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[23:17] <New2Balloon> Quickie... Is GPS reliable and accurate at height?
[23:17] <jcoxon> depends which one
[23:17] <jcoxon> lots don't work above 18km
[23:18] <jcoxon> New2Balloon, http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/guides:gps_modules
[23:19] <jcoxon> night all
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[23:19] <New2Balloon> jcoxon, thanks... I managed to get the serial data from the Ublox 6m yesterday (or Wednesday) thanks for your help :)
[23:19] <New2Balloon> oh well....
[23:20] <New2Balloon> what happens above 18k I wonder to myself... how are altitudes measured?
[23:22] <LazyLeopard> the GPS knows ;)
[23:24] <LazyLeopard> It's just that some GPS units refuse to say where they are when they know they're above 18kms. ;)
[23:25] <fsphil> it's a silly legal thing
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[23:29] <New2Balloon> Oh.. I see. I may be dumb, but if they know why won't they day? :) ?
[23:30] <New2Balloon> not day.. say
[23:33] <LazyLeopard> There are rules about how GPS can be used, and the GPS units must obey. ;)
[23:34] <LazyLeopard> ...but some GPS units are dumber and don't interpret the rules correctly.
[23:34] Action: LazyLeopard is anthropomorphising rather...
[23:36] <DrLuke> become an Electrical engineer
[23:36] <DrLuke> make your own gps
[23:36] <DrLuke> -module*
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[23:41] <New2Balloon> drluke, not going to happen - too late for that :)
[23:42] <New2Balloon> LazyLeopard, and if the module is clever ?
[23:46] <LazyLeopard> Then it works, or can be made to...
[23:47] <LazyLeopard> ...but you gotta buy the smart ones. ;)
[23:47] <mrShrimp> some modules have to be configured for high altitude use (eg: Trimble Copernicus II)
[23:47] <LazyLeopard> ...as the wiki link will point out. ;)
[23:48] <mrShrimp> ah, didn't know
[23:48] <LazyLeopard> Yeah, Some of them assume you're going to be on the ground. ;)
[23:50] <mrShrimp> Crazy idea out of the cobwebby corner of my cranium: Launching multiple zero pressure balloons and implement a cellular network for the cloud men.
[23:50] <mrShrimp> *implementing
[23:51] <mrShrimp> ...
[23:53] <mrShrimp> Anyways, I would assume it is sensible for manufacturers to limit their products as such, or they wouldn't do it.
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[23:56] <fsphil> the gps? they're legally required to limit them
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[00:00] --- Fri Nov 23 2012