highaltitude.log.20121119

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[00:11] <arko> what a nice afternoon
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[00:34] <natrium42> hi arko
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[00:39] <arko> helloo
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[05:56] <heathkid> anyone using a Trackuino?
[05:57] <heathkid> anyway... it's transmitting just fine... but I'm looking for software to decode it using my sound card. Any suggestions?
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[07:30] <arko> eroomde: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/270421087202992128
[07:30] <arko> how'd it go?
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[08:02] Nick change: Mission-Critical -> MissionCritical
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[08:04] <eroomde> arko: well!
[08:05] <arko> :)
[08:06] <eroomde> v interesting guy
[08:06] <eroomde> he doesn;t really get the airbreathing concept
[08:06] <eroomde> but that's ok for us
[08:07] <eroomde> at the royal aero society on friday, someone asked in a q&a what he thought about ariane 6
[08:07] <eroomde> the possible new european launcher
[08:07] <eroomde> he said exactly what most people there were thinking
[08:07] <eroomde> which was
[08:07] <arko> what a nice afternoon
[08:08] <eroomde> 'well... i'd say to them, 'make sure it's competitive with falcon 9'... cos otherwise, what's the point?'
[08:08] <arko> what the heck
[08:08] <arko> why did my computer type that
[08:08] <arko> sorry one sec
[08:08] <eroomde> it went english briefly
[08:09] <arko> haha
[08:09] <arko> very business answer
[08:09] <arko> the one interaction i had with him, he was very nice
[08:10] <eroomde> but yeah, he's not really a deep rocket scientist
[08:10] <eroomde> he's a world class ceo
[08:10] <arko> yeah
[08:11] <eroomde> but you can bottom out his understanding if you start going too deep
[08:11] <arko> sure
[08:11] <eroomde> i mean, fair enough
[08:11] <arko> yeah
[08:11] <arko> jobs didn't know about the transistor logic in processors
[08:11] <arko> haha
[08:11] <eroomde> and having a sort of 10,000ft view of stuff from a thermodynamics pov is super powerful an ability for someone deciding the direction of things
[08:12] <arko> he does know enough to make management decisions though
[08:12] <arko> yeah
[08:12] <arko> man thats cool though
[08:12] <eroomde> but, it does mean that the things that the airbreathing allowed were a bit lost of him, i think. I think he just thought it to buy a couple of % of the first stage
[08:12] <griffonbot> Received email: Justin Maynard "[UKHAS] Tomorrows flights & filtered payloads"
[08:13] <arko> :/
[08:13] <arko> hmm
[08:13] <arko> i wish i knew more about rockets
[08:13] <arko> i need to learn
[08:14] <arko> im super n00b when it comes to actual rockets
[08:14] <arko> heh
[08:14] <arko> btw, i've been reading about radiation in space and how to protect electrnics
[08:14] <eroomde> oh?
[08:14] <eroomde> and yeah, rockets are cool
[08:14] <arko> however all these publications have an export lock on them :( so i can't share to forign nationals
[08:15] <arko> haha, "rockets are cool"
[08:15] <arko> couldn't agree more
[08:15] <eroomde> i kinda see them as a bit like plumbing and drainage networks at the beginning of the industrial revolution
[08:15] <eroomde> we need to mass build cheap infrastructure
[08:15] <arko> maybe that will be my nexxt project, i jut need to find a friend who wont let me blow myself up
[08:15] <eroomde> but pretty soon we'll wonder how we ever lived with it
[08:15] <eroomde> it just has to be much cheaper though
[08:15] <arko> yeah
[08:16] <eroomde> low earth orbit is halfway to anywhere in the solar system
[08:16] <eroomde> or whatever the fella said
[08:16] <arko> :P
[08:16] <arko> there are still a lot of unknowns and dangers we need to overcome
[08:16] <arko> lots of info lost during apollo era
[08:17] <arko> or i should say after
[08:17] <eroomde> yeah
[08:17] <arko> we gotta get on this
[08:17] <eroomde> i saw a talk by a guy called mike...
[08:17] <eroomde> mike...
[08:17] <arko> how am i suppose to go to mars before i die!?
[08:17] <eroomde> mike someone
[08:17] <arko> mike someone ay>
[08:17] <arko> ?
[08:17] <eroomde> he did the voiceover to that shuttle launch vid on youetube that is the launch in slowmo from loads of angles
[08:17] <arko> oh nice
[08:17] <eroomde> and he was one of the chief investigation report authors for columbia
[08:18] <eroomde> and also gave the best engineering talk i've ever been to, which was about the columbia investigation
[08:18] <eroomde> really, the best i've ever seen, if there had to be a talk i'd want all PMs to watch
[08:18] <arko> i read the papers but never watched/listened to anything
[08:18] <eroomde> anyway, he is devoting himself to not having another apollo knowledge drain
[08:18] <arko> very good!
[08:18] <eroomde> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2VygftZSCs
[08:18] <arko> link to the video?
[08:19] <arko> read my mind
[08:19] <arko> omg
[08:19] <arko> i remember this!
[08:19] <arko> watched it all the way through
[08:19] <arko> it's been a while
[08:20] <arko> dude when you come here we will go see the space shuttle
[08:20] <arko> that we just got ;)
[08:20] <arko> also norton sales
[08:20] <arko> they sell rocket stuff
[08:21] <eroomde> norton sales!?
[08:21] <eroomde> a shop that sells rocket things
[08:21] <eroomde> wow
[08:21] <arko> heard of the?
[08:21] <arko> them*
[08:21] <eroomde> no
[08:21] <arko> oh ok
[08:21] <arko> yeah
[08:21] <arko> they buy piles of shit from nasa
[08:21] <arko> then sell them
[08:21] <eroomde> sounds like my kind of place :)
[08:21] <arko> you can stright up buy a rocket engine
[08:21] <arko> yeah
[08:22] <arko> they have the rejected apollo 13 LEM engine
[08:22] <eroomde> swagelok is kinda our rocket shop atm
[08:22] <arko> i forget the company that was compeiting but they lost
[08:22] <arko> $1.5M
[08:22] <eroomde> :)
[08:22] <arko> wow
[08:22] <arko> these guys are serious
[08:22] <arko> they have shops?
[08:23] <eroomde> swagelok?
[08:23] <arko> yea
[08:23] <eroomde> not so much
[08:23] <eroomde> just a rep
[08:23] <arko> ahh
[08:23] <eroomde> who pops round every week or so
[08:23] <arko> ok
[08:23] <arko> nice
[08:23] <eroomde> but yeah, every rocket requires a lot of swagelok
[08:23] <eroomde> they are our industry's plumbers
[08:23] <eroomde> and rockets are just plumbing really
[08:24] <eroomde> plumbing with extra heat transfer calcs
[08:24] <natrium42> just do an orbital sciences
[08:24] <natrium42> buy old russian rocket engines from the 60ies
[08:24] <eroomde> buy some old 60's engines that have been sitting in a hangar somewhere/
[08:24] <natrium42> :)
[08:24] <arko> yikes
[08:24] <eroomde> not the most sustainable business model
[08:24] <arko> haha
[08:24] <eroomde> but, developing a rocket engine is mega expensive
[08:24] <eroomde> and the russians are historically better at it from a performance pov
[08:25] <eroomde> but i would still do it
[08:25] <natrium42> at least the N1 program wasn't a complete waste
[08:25] <eroomde> spaceX were very lucky
[08:25] <eroomde> they got handed all the leftovers from fastrac when they started
[08:26] <arko> wow
[08:26] <eroomde> which was more or less a baseline design for a working low cost engine
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[08:26] <eroomde> or merlin size
[08:26] <arko> that makes sense
[08:26] <eroomde> of*
[08:26] <arko> i wondered how they got this stuff so quickly
[08:26] <eroomde> so they had a really good baseline from which to get the first merlin out
[08:26] <arko> ahhh
[08:26] <eroomde> and that's the really hard bit
[08:26] <eroomde> they even use barber nichols, still, to do the turbopumps
[08:26] <eroomde> because they did the fastrac one
[08:27] <eroomde> lucky for them, but also very sensible
[08:27] <arko> yeah
[08:28] <eroomde> we in quaint englandland are hatching a similar idea
[08:28] <eroomde> looking at the Gamma 8 engine used on Black Arrow
[08:29] <eroomde> as a baseline for certain things we might try here
[08:29] <arko> do you aquire the company?
[08:29] <arko> i think i misread
[08:30] <eroomde> oh no
[08:30] <eroomde> there is no company :)
[08:30] <arko> just conceptual design
[08:30] <eroomde> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Arrow
[08:30] <eroomde> we had a sat launch capacbility
[08:30] <eroomde> in the 60s
[08:30] <arko> ohh
[08:30] <eroomde> then we canceled it
[08:30] <eroomde> the only country ever to do so
[08:30] <arko> lame
[08:30] <eroomde> but the black arrow was a lovely rocket
[08:30] <eroomde> super simple
[08:31] <eroomde> 8 identical engines on the first stage arranaged in pairs, a single vacuum version of the same engine on the next stage
[08:31] <eroomde> (remind you of anyone?)
[08:31] <arko> hah!
[08:31] <eroomde> developed with almost no budget
[08:31] <eroomde> and byba tiny team
[08:31] <eroomde> by a*
[08:32] <eroomde> and there is still a gap nowadays for 200kg to LEO class rockets
[08:32] <eroomde> lots of companies like surrey sats would chew your arm off
[08:32] <arko> that sounds really really light
[08:33] <eroomde> it is
[08:33] <eroomde> a wee rocket
[08:33] <arko> yeah, cubesats are pricy when it comes to launch
[08:34] <eroomde> well, cubesats will always be secondary payloads
[08:34] <eroomde> but you can do a lot in a 100kg sat nowadays, and their budgets and importance are increasingly enough to justify primary payload status
[08:34] <arko> i just wish it was cheaper
[08:35] <arko> yeah that makes sense
[08:35] <arko> you could do a lot with 100kg
[08:35] <eroomde> i wonder especially if you could make a fully reusable rocket that could launch 100kg to LEO
[08:35] <arko> that would sell
[08:35] <arko> a lot
[08:35] <eroomde> i know!
[08:36] <arko> I WANT MY OWN SATELLITE
[08:36] <eroomde> but you're at totally the wrong end of the cube/square law
[08:36] <arko> heh
[08:36] <eroomde> volume to surface area ratios and so on
[08:36] <arko> too much fuel fors something so small
[08:36] <arko> ?
[08:36] <eroomde> and fixed mass for things like fixings, plumbing, electronics
[08:37] <arko> mmm
[08:37] <eroomde> but yeah it's sort of a thermodynamics problem in terms of cube/square
[08:37] <eroomde> your heat transfer is higher because the surface area to volume ratio of say a combustion chamber is much higher
[08:37] <eroomde> and that makes things a bit less efficient
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[08:38] <arko> i need to learn this stuff
[08:38] <arko> perhaps sleep would be good before i do so
[08:39] <eroomde> RPE by sutton
[08:39] <eroomde> rocket propulsion elements
[08:39] <eroomde> it's the horowitz and hill of rocketry
[08:39] Action: arko googles
[08:39] <eroomde> not mega deep and mathematical, but just a wonderful overview of everything, all the important maths, and v thorough
[08:40] <eroomde> 8th edition with a dedicated chapter on turbopumps
[08:40] <eroomde> excitingly
[08:41] <eroomde> turbopumps are the really reall;y hard bit
[08:41] <arko> http://web.mit.edu/e_peters/Public/Rockets/Rocket_Propulsion_Elements.pdf
[08:41] <arko> hah!
[08:41] <fsphil> so who wants to break into the london science museum and steal that black arrow they have? :)
[08:41] <eroomde> rocket engines are often described as a bit of plumbing attached to a turbopump
[08:41] <arko> nice
[08:41] <eroomde> fsphil: well.... i have spent a lot of time looking at it :)
[08:41] <fsphil> haha
[08:41] <arko> thanks eroomde, i'll start reading it soon
[08:41] <eroomde> we're going to visit john scott scott and the rolls royce heritage museum soon
[08:41] <fsphil> you probably saw more in it than I did
[08:42] <fsphil> I was "Ohhh that's pretty"
[08:42] <eroomde> as he more of less designed black arrow
[08:42] <eroomde> and he seems to jsut intuitively get turbopumps
[08:42] <eroomde> he built one for a miltary thing once
[08:42] <fsphil> I do wonder if it could still be launched
[08:42] <eroomde> it was about the size of a coke can
[08:42] <eroomde> shaft span at 500,000rpm
[08:42] <eroomde> (yes)
[08:43] <eroomde> and it was like megawatss of power
[08:43] <fsphil> how does anything spin that fast, and not explode?
[08:43] <eroomde> the 'compressure' and 'turbine' looked more like knurling
[08:43] <eroomde> compressor*
[08:43] <eroomde> fsphil: with very careful design!
[08:43] <arko> time to sleep, good night guys
[08:43] <fsphil> very very
[08:43] <fsphil> nite arko
[08:44] <eroomde> nite arko
[08:44] <eroomde> happy reading
[08:44] <arko> thanks :)
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[09:12] <griffonbot> Received email: "[UKHAS] Frequency range"
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[09:20] <griffonbot> Received email: Ed Moore "Re: [UKHAS] Frequency range"
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[09:34] <griffonbot> Received email: Steve Aerospace "Re: [UKHAS] Frequency range"
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[10:15] <eroomde> marnen alles
[10:17] <Darkside> is night marnen here
[10:17] <Darkside> nicht*
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[10:26] <fsphil> getting there... http://i.imgur.com/r4tY7.jpg
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[10:34] <eroomde> presumably the speed is dropping off quite fast atm?
[10:34] <eroomde> in that it's just being decelerated by the sun's gravity?
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[10:53] <fsphil> yes
[10:53] <fsphil> distance wise it's more than half way, ut time wise about half
[10:54] <fsphil> well it was launched in 2006.. yikes, I didn't realise it was that long ago
[11:00] <kokey> I guess it broke the amateur altitude record
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[11:07] <fsphil> not sure I'd consider that amateur :)
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[11:23] <kokey> yeah I suppose NASA is not amateur
[11:23] <kokey> when it comes to spaaace
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[11:26] <SpeedEvil> funky.
[11:26] <SpeedEvil> royal mail has a cheap parcel service, where the receiver actually gets an email at 6am that they will get a parcel that day.
[11:27] <SpeedEvil> I look for details, and then find the 'you just have to send 300000 parcels a year from one location'
[11:28] <kokey> heh, if you send that many parcels you can probably implement your own email and delivery
[11:34] <SpeedEvil> it's sad. it being available for small senders would likely reduce royal mails workload.
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[11:40] <kokey> but that means job losses
[11:40] <kokey> and strikes, along with the people they have that dig holes and those that fill them, and the people who break windows for them and those that repair them
[11:42] <kokey> royal mail creates jobs for all of those
[11:42] <kokey> and for the people companies have to employ to queue at the delivery office miles away since royal mail drops a card off at a business address at 7am
[11:46] <fsphil> royal mail only deliver to us twice at fixed times. it's quite handy
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[12:45] <griffonbot> Received email: "Re: [UKHAS] Frequency range"
[12:55] <griffonbot> Received email: Alexei Karpenko "Re: [UKHAS] Tomorrows flights & filtered payloads"
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[13:38] <Laurenceb> http://www.bin.laden.org/
[13:39] <costyn> Laurenceb: relevant advertising is relevant
[14:20] <griffonbot> Received email: Daniel Richman "Re: [UKHAS] Tomorrows flights & filtered payloads"
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[15:28] <jcoxon> afternoon all
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[17:54] <DrLuke> upu: cheers, the atmegas arrived
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[18:58] <Upu> nps DrLuke
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[19:28] <Hiena> ' evening!
[19:28] <Hiena> Did you see that:
[19:28] <Hiena> http://lists.nongnu.org/archive/html/paparazzi-devel/2012-11/msg00114.html
[19:28] <Hiena> Seems like a HAB with a UAV payload.
[19:29] <Hiena> The 300km two way link and a the HA drop is a quite challenge.
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[20:56] <Ivan___> First time I've been on here, got a few questions for a project I'm working on..... Anyone know what the best GPS module to use over 16,000m is? Also has anyone built an auto deployment system to launch a payload at a set co-ordinate?
[20:57] <nigelvh> Lots of people use the uBlox GPS units. but really any GPS that deals wigh higher altitudes should work alright.
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[21:01] <Ivan___> Cool, the lastt one I used was ITAR limited so I'll check that out...
[21:01] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[21:02] <daveake> There's a list on the web somewhere of ones that work above 18km
[21:02] <daveake> and a list of ones that don't
[21:03] <daveake> Try http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/category&path=59_60 for the uBlox
[21:05] <arko> Wow i remember the new horizon launch
[21:05] <arko> Think that 2015 is so far away
[21:06] <arko> Thinking*
[21:08] <Ivan___> Ah excellent! I bought this one a while ago ( http://www.rfsolutions.co.uk/acatalog/info_GPS_330R.html ) annoyingly the datasheets wrong....
[21:12] <Upu> there aren't actually that many out there rated to over 30km
[21:13] <Upu> that Adafruit Ultimate one currently tops out at 27km
[21:13] <Upu> I say currently as I have one that is mean to be able to do 40km on my desk
[21:14] <nigelvh> I've also used this one: https://www.argentdata.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=144&osCsid=n6vmkj2078j519506mgbvo4620
[21:14] <Upu> weighs only 20 grams
[21:14] <Upu> *smiles*
[21:15] <nigelvh> Yes yes, you and your pico payloads
[21:15] <Upu> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:gps_modules
[21:21] <Ivan___> Nice, I'll have to splash out on a second one! Just got a flat line on the google earth plot at 18km on the last one we did... ( http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/VIDEO-Bristol-fundraisers-send-lego-man-space/story-17208262-detail/story.html )
[21:22] <Upu> oh nice
[21:22] <Upu> yeah the ublox with fix that
[21:22] <Upu> will
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[21:22] <Upu> can't type tonight
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[21:30] <Ivan___> So anyone aware of a glider being sucessfully launched from a balloon at 100,000ft?
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[21:31] <jonsowman> justinatomatic__: please, please sort your connection out
[21:31] <jonsowman> the entire page of scrollback in #habhub is your join/quits
[21:33] <justinatomatic__> which connection What problem bit manic here
[21:33] <justinatomatic__> can we clear tho old trackers from the map?
[21:34] <jonsowman> lol ok, will explain later
[21:34] <jonsowman> what do you wantcleared?
[21:34] <jonsowman> everything?
[21:35] <justinatomatic__> everything before skulls plese
[21:35] <jonsowman> done
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[21:41] <justinatomatic__> one of the trackers is uploading in dl-fdigi but no coming up on the map Hotdog
[21:41] <justinatomatic__> Thanks
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[21:42] <daveake> No configuration doc for 'Hotdog' found
[21:42] <daveake> ^^ sez the logtail
[21:42] <justinatomatic__> poo
[21:42] <justinatomatic__> let me take a look
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[21:43] <jonsowman> there is a config doc for "HotDog"
[21:43] <daveake> aha
[21:44] <jonsowman> justinatomatic__: ^
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[21:44] <jonsowman> brilliant
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[21:44] <justinatomatic_> aha?
[21:44] <jonsowman> justinatomatic_: HotDog not Hotdog
[21:44] <justinatomatic_> Thanks for meting around btw
[21:45] <justinatomatic_> Yup by mad the actual tracker is sending Hotdog,
[21:45] <justinatomatic_> what is the easiest fix
[21:47] <justinatomatic_> just updated payload settings
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[21:50] <daveake> Seems to be working now
[21:52] <daveake> Hotdog got launched already? Before it was on the map? Brave ...
[21:53] <Lunar_Lander> is that superlaunch today?
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[21:58] <justinatomatic_> had hot dog signal before it launched
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[22:00] <justinatomatic_> switching computers
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[22:29] <Laurenceb_> https://olimex.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/mj.jpg?w=487
[22:30] <Laurenceb_> what the hell
[22:30] <Lunar_Lander> hi GW8RAK
[22:31] <Lunar_Lander> Laurenceb_ xD
[22:33] <GW8RAK> Hi Lunar_Lander. How are things?
[22:34] <Lunar_Lander> I am OK, thanks and you?
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[22:36] <GW8RAK> Okay. After a long break, I'm getting interested in electronics again and heating up the soldering iron
[22:36] <Lunar_Lander> cool
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[22:38] <GW8RAK> Unfortunately while I've been away, none of my projects have been finished and now there's even more to do
[22:39] <Lunar_Lander> oh
[22:39] <Lunar_Lander> that doesn't sound that good
[22:39] <Lunar_Lander> but it's great that you are back here :)
[22:40] <GW8RAK> Life has been rather busy in recent months but the winter evenings mean I have more time for indoors. Less gardening to do.
[22:40] <Lunar_Lander> yea
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[23:18] <eroomde> sof off with your overfull \vbox
[23:18] <eroomde> useless thing
[23:21] <jonsowman> tex <3
[23:21] <Laurenceb_> hi eroomde
[23:21] <Laurenceb_> linear actuators arent simple :(
[23:22] <Laurenceb_> i got my firgelli L12 haxored
[23:22] <Laurenceb_> its working quite well, but the pot is too noisy
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[23:26] <Laurenceb_> so.. stepper time
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[23:41] <natrium42> justinatomatic_: so, did you launch? :)
[23:44] <justinatomatic_> yup
[23:44] <Darkside> look at the tracker
[23:44] <Darkside> i see you got robert brand in on the action
[23:45] <Darkside> i see an aprs tracker in the air, dunno if it's with any of the other flights as the altitudes don't match up
[23:46] <Darkside> justinatomatic_: the predictions on the tracker shoudl be valid now
[23:47] <Darkside> i've set them to 17km burst alt, and it has the latest wind data
[23:50] <RG_LZ1DEV> whats with the names of all those balloons?
[23:50] <Darkside> battlestar galactica pilots
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[23:51] <RG_LZ1DEV> wow
[23:51] <RG_LZ1DEV> you are right
[23:51] <RG_LZ1DEV> i was thinking something completely different
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[23:54] <Darkside> justinatomatic_: are packets just not getting into the web, or is something else going on?
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[23:57] <fsphil> in the air now?
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[23:59] <Darkside> yup
[23:59] <fsphil> this will be a long shot ...
[00:00] --- Tue Nov 20 2012