highaltitude.log.20121115

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[00:09] <griffonbot> Received email: Justin Maynard "[UKHAS] Yet another tracker, HAB Shield"
[00:11] <jonsowman> ^ !
[00:15] <Darkside> yeah
[00:15] <Darkside> he's supposedly doing time multiplexing
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[00:28] <griffonbot> Received email: Steve Aerospace "Re: [UKHAS] Yet another tracker, HAB Shield"
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[02:09] <sparkgap> hey all
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[03:59] <heathkid> hey there sparkgap
[04:00] <sparkgap> hey
[04:00] <heathkid> got my first balloon ordered... 600g Kaymont
[04:00] <heathkid> and parashoot
[04:00] <sparkgap> congratulations
[04:00] <heathkid> payload should be quite less than that... thinking of adding a few goodies
[04:01] <heathkid> have to get the APRS working first though... :)
[04:01] <heathkid> waiting on the programmer from SFE
[04:02] <sparkgap> oh?
[04:03] <heathkid> I don't have a way to program this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/261114591451
[04:03] <heathkid> it's *tiny* and incredible!
[04:03] <Darkside> wat
[04:03] <sparkgap> seems like that would come pre-propgrammed
[04:03] <Darkside> that looks familiar
[04:04] <heathkid> would have if I got the email instead of it going into my spam filter...
[04:04] <heathkid> :)
[04:04] <heathkid> but I'd rather program it myself as I want to add a few goodies to it as well...
[04:04] <Darkside> that won't come preprogrammed
[04:04] <Darkside> thats basically a micronut
[04:04] <sparkgap> do they provide the source?
[04:04] <heathkid> yes, on a CD
[04:04] <sparkgap> cool
[04:04] <heathkid> he's on here somewhere...
[04:04] <Darkside> the trackuino code will run on that
[04:05] <heathkid> yes
[04:05] <Darkside> as its what it was designed for...
[04:05] <heathkid> he'll preprogram it with your callsign and message if you want....
[04:06] <Darkside> or you just get an AVRISP
[04:06] <heathkid> ?
[04:06] <Darkside> a programmer
[04:06] <sparkgap> AVRISP is good to have around anyway
[04:06] <Darkside> the AVRISP MKII is the official AVR one
[04:06] <sparkgap> and cheap if you go with something like the adafruit kit or the SFE one
[04:06] <Darkside> and works great
[04:06] <sparkgap> I've had a ton of luck with the cheap offbrands
[04:06] <Darkside> yeah, the avrtinyisp works too
[04:06] <sparkgap> except the SFE one can get a little hairy
[04:06] <Darkside> they'll all work fine with the arduino environment too
[04:06] <Darkside> since it just uses avrdude, and avrdude supports just about anything
[04:07] <heathkid> I have this one on the way... https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9825
[04:08] <heathkid> any problems with this one I should know about?
[04:08] <Darkside> looks liks a SMD USBTinyISP
[04:08] <heathkid> so it should work okay?
[04:08] <Darkside> i guess so
[04:08] <heathkid> I'll give it a try...
[04:08] <Darkside> should be easy enough to program with teh arduino ide
[04:09] <Darkside> as of v1.0, you can just choose 'upload with programmer'
[04:09] <sparkgap> eh
[04:09] <sparkgap> thats the one I had trouble with
[04:10] <sparkgap> http://www.adafruit.com/products/46 I use this one, it works quite well
[04:10] <sparkgap> its a kit though, you have to assemble it, but it works very well
[04:10] <Darkside> oh yeah i've seen those
[04:10] <sparkgap> the pocket programmer seems to have issues with a lot of PCs, needing to connect through a hub to work reliably, not sure if that's been resolved
[04:11] <Darkside> i use one of these http://au.element14.com/atmel/atavrisp2/programmer-avr-mcu-isp/dp/1135517
[04:11] <Darkside> that'll program the newer XMega series too, that use PDI instead of ISP
[04:14] <heathkid> sparkgap: is it a power issue?
[04:14] <sparkgap> not sure what it is, never figured it out
[04:14] <sparkgap> I just got the other one
[04:14] <sparkgap> the pocket programmer is in a drawer, its a backup
[04:15] <sparkgap> I can make it work, its just annoying...
[04:15] <heathkid> well as long as I can make it work
[04:16] <heathkid> I'm just jumping into all this with no clue what I'm doing... :)
[04:16] <heathkid> still just reading a lot
[04:17] <Darkside> at least your're reading a lot
[04:17] <Darkside> you're*
[04:17] <Darkside> theres a reason why i don't like people selling trackers that small
[04:17] <Darkside> it makes it too easy for someone to buy one and launch without much thought
[04:17] <heathkid> why?
[04:17] <sparkgap> yes, and asking intelligent questions instead of expecting things handed to you
[04:17] <Darkside> or research into safety
[04:17] <sparkgap> Darkside, I agree with you
[04:17] <heathkid> oh, I've been doing a lot of research...
[04:17] <sparkgap> plus, I think its a little less fun, but I love rolling my own
[04:17] <Darkside> i'm kind of glad that board ended up in your hands, as you seem a reasonably intelligent person
[04:18] <Darkside> :P
[04:18] <Darkside> unlike some people we've had in here
[04:18] <heathkid> who? me?
[04:18] <Darkside> you're the intelligent one :P
[04:18] <heathkid> ah
[04:18] <heathkid> well, thank you.
[04:18] <Darkside> we've had some people who are like "HURR DURR GONNA PUT A PHONE ON A BALLOON AND LAUNCH NEXT TO AIRPORT LAWL"
[04:18] <sparkgap> Darkside, talking about me? ;)
[04:19] <sparkgap> haha, the iPhone ballooners make me twitch a little
[04:19] <sparkgap> when we first started doing this in school one of the freshman suggested that, we almost threw him out haha
[04:20] <heathkid> figured I'd start with this and the 600g Kaymont... that'll give me the experience with the NOTMAM and tracking stuff as well as the actual balloon and payload (which I consider the EASY part).
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[04:20] <heathkid> bah
[04:20] <heathkid> NOTAM
[04:20] <heathkid> typos are my worst friend
[04:21] <sparkgap> at least you have a friend :)
[04:21] <heathkid> airport is about 5 miles from me... even after I file I still plan to notify them prior to launch
[04:21] <heathkid> they are idiots.. but still...
[04:21] <heathkid> small airport
[04:22] <heathkid> didn't care a twin-engine plane buzzed our lake low enough to leave a wake!
[04:22] <heathkid> the lake is in a valley... below MOST homes
[04:22] <heathkid> it went by at eye level
[04:23] <heathkid> and my house is only about 30 ft. above lake level
[04:23] <heathkid> made three passes
[04:23] <heathkid> local airport said they didn't have any aircraft in the area.... heh
[04:24] <sparkgap> don't suppose it was this airport? :P
[04:24] <sparkgap> http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/denton/Caught-on-Tape-Roanoake-177177461.html
[04:24] <SpeedEvil> heathkid: you may have unrealistic expectations of how much knowledge the airport has
[04:24] <sparkgap> haha
[04:25] <heathkid> no, it wasn't that airport... though that's about the altitude the plane was above the water...
[04:26] <heathkid> had to pull up to miss the dam
[04:26] <SpeedEvil> get the tail number if you can
[04:26] <heathkid> heh...
[04:26] <heathkid> at that speed?
[04:27] <heathkid> I got N9....
[04:28] <heathkid> they haven't done it since
[04:28] <heathkid> so maybe they did get a talking to
[04:29] <heathkid> though the airport "knew nothing"
[04:30] <heathkid> but I'll still be nice and notify them before *any* balloon lanuch (even a mylar if it has a payload)...
[04:30] <heathkid> though a 3 ft. mylar doesn't require a NOTAM anyway
[04:30] <heathkid> I'll still be nice
[04:31] <heathkid> based on my average winds here (over the last 4 years running a weather station)... it'll likely fly over the airport...
[04:32] <Dan-K2VOL> heathkid, its legal to fly down to ground level as long as they're a certain distance from populated areas or livestock
[04:40] <heathkid> tha'ts great if I can do a high-altitude zero float launch... and the winds are in my favor... :)
[04:41] <heathkid> I need a NE wind and *everything* is fine...
[04:41] <heathkid> an East wind would put it over Indianapolis, IN
[04:42] <heathkid> depends on how fast I can get it up and away from a populated area
[04:43] <heathkid> lots of corn fields around here
[04:43] <heathkid> and I've yet to see a diagram of exactly how to connect the payload, parashoot, cutdown system, balloon, etc...
[04:44] <heathkid> and lengths between each
[04:44] <heathkid> from photos I see everything from a few feet to 20 meters or so
[04:45] <SpeedEvil> more is generally better
[04:45] <SpeedEvil> to stop tangling of the chute and payload
[04:45] <heathkid> what keeps the parashoot from getting tangled?
[04:45] <SpeedEvil> and balloon remnants
[04:45] <SpeedEvil> sorry, going to sleep
[04:45] <heathkid> nite
[04:46] <SpeedEvil> spacing
[04:47] <heathkid> maybe I should start with a couple 3 ft. mylars and an APRS payload as a test...
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[05:16] <arko> eroomde: nova is airing right now on pbs
[05:16] <arko> Its about the curiosity
[05:17] <arko> :)
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[07:08] <eroomde> morning arko
[07:08] <arko> morning sir
[07:09] <arko> http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/space/ultimate-mars-challenge.html
[07:09] <arko> this just aired here
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[07:10] <eroomde> how does one find it on the net?
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[07:12] <arko> torrents or newsgroups at the moment
[07:12] <arko> should be available here soon
[07:12] <arko> eventually youtube
[07:12] <Darkside> release name?
[07:12] <arko> honestly it wasnt that technical
[07:12] <arko> NOVA Ultimate Mars Challenge
[07:14] <arko> i have a meeting at jpl tomorrow to talk about my next hab
[07:14] <arko> get suggestions for environmental circuit analysis
[07:14] <arko> :) can't wait
[07:15] <eroomde> nice
[07:15] <eroomde> topically
[07:15] <eroomde> http://www.parabolicarc.com/2012/11/14/44264/?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed
[07:16] <arko> wow
[07:16] <arko> thats crazy
[07:16] <Darkside> SEUs suck
[07:16] <arko> who's twitter feed is that from?
[07:16] <Darkside> and you can do all the rad hardening you can and STILL have problems
[07:18] <arko> yep
[07:18] <arko> ask Cassini
[07:18] <eroomde> dunno why thats in the url
[07:18] <arko> rad levels out there are like 3 times a nuke
[07:18] <arko> oh haha
[07:18] <arko> i totally would follow that feed
[07:18] <eroomde> parabolic arc is good
[07:19] <eroomde> i have it on rss
[07:19] <eroomde> well, it's quite good
[07:19] <arko> adding to my rss now
[07:19] <eroomde> but i think doug messier has an interest in promoting mojave
[07:22] <arko> woah
[07:22] <arko> small world
[07:22] <arko> my friend Michael works for him in Mojave
[07:22] <arko> he stops by our hackerspace now and then
[07:22] <arko> XCOR right?
[07:28] <eroomde> no i think he's just a private blogger
[07:28] <arko> oh
[07:29] <eroomde> http://www.linkedin.com/in/douglasmessier
[07:29] <arko> oh snap
[07:29] <arko> i was thinking Doug Jones
[07:30] <arko> him and Jeff founded XCOR
[07:30] <arko> Greason*
[07:32] <arko> i think they are doomed
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[07:33] <arko> but thats just an opinion
[07:33] <eroomde> :)
[07:34] <eroomde> in the mean time they make nice small engines
[07:34] <arko> hehe
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[07:35] <arko> man this is so weird
[07:35] <arko> im working on this circuit
[07:35] <arko> where data is transfered over a long transmission cable
[07:35] <arko> 50Mhz
[07:35] <arko> 5v to -5v
[07:36] <arko> 100ohm line
[07:36] <arko> 100ohm on the other end to match
[07:37] <arko> power is 0.125W if im not wrong
[07:37] <arko> if i add a 180pf line in series with the 100ohm
[07:37] <arko> power goes down to 0.091W
[07:37] <arko> does that sound right?
[07:37] <Darkside> something to do with making the line resonant?
[07:38] <arko> well
[07:38] <arko> what do you mean?
[07:38] <arko> hmm
[07:39] <arko> it ends up being an underdamped transient response
[07:42] <arko> does it sound right though?
[07:42] <arko> i expected larger power saving than 1.37
[07:43] <arko> or 137%
[07:43] <arko> running on 2 hours of sleep likely isn't helping me
[07:44] <arko> even 37%
[07:47] <eroomde> is the thing you're sending DC balanced?
[07:47] <eroomde> i am sleepy too running on a few hours sleep
[07:47] <eroomde> but i had a bit to drink last night and i'm not really drinking atm generally in my life, so it has more of an affect
[07:49] <arko> haha
[07:49] <costyn> morning
[07:49] <arko> rough
[07:49] <arko> good morning
[07:49] <arko> i slowed down the scotch i usually drink a year ago, go scared i would get addicted
[07:49] <arko> yes it's dc balanced
[07:50] <arko> i wish i could simulate this
[07:50] <arko> something tells me power savings should be greater
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[08:04] <griffonbot> Received email: DAKA Technology "[UKHAS] TDMA"
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[08:33] <fsphil> hibby: indeed, lovely little project
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[08:42] <gonzo_> arko, I wonder if the extra cap is changing the terminating impeadence, so you are nolonger matched. So no getting proper power transfer. So needing less power on the driver device?
[08:42] <gonzo_> on a long cable, it all become transmission line stuff (at 50MHz anyway)
[08:45] <gonzo_> if you scoped the rx end you would brobably see somethuing other than +-5v. Could be more. But it's all going to be dependent on the cable length. And also the different frequency components of the data will have different matching/standing wave. So you could get an interesting waveform at the rx end
[08:47] <arko> hmm
[08:47] <arko> yeah i need to poke this circuit more
[08:48] <arko> more importantly, a good night sleep shoudl help :)
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[09:19] <hibby> fsphil: have you noticed mousewheel scrolling issues?
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[09:25] <fsphil> don't think so hibby
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[09:27] <hibby> Hmm. We've got an open issue on aprsmap relating to it but I've not checked in a while
[09:27] <hibby> you'll be glad to know it compiles on ubuntu/arm
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[09:28] <hibby> I'd quite like pinch to zoom control in the touch input drivers for my device... That would be ace.
[09:31] <griffonbot> Received email: MikeB "[UKHAS] Re: Yet another tracker, HAB Shield"
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[09:36] <griffonbot> Received email: Costyn van Dongen "Re: [UKHAS] Yet another tracker, HAB Shield"
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[10:00] <griffonbot> Received email: David Akerman "Re: [UKHAS] Balloon Fiesta 2013"
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[11:03] <griffonbot> Received email: mclane "[UKHAS] Launch Announcement PYSY on 17.11.2012"
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[11:22] <griffonbot> Received email: Colin Tuckley "Re: [UKHAS] Yet another tracker, HAB Shield"
[11:22] <griffonbot> Received email: Justin Maynard "Re: [UKHAS] Yet another tracker, HAB Shield"
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[11:34] <costyn> weird... those HAB shield emails all arrived out of order
[11:36] <wibble_> NavracWork: Do you still have your old Yupiteru for sale?
[11:37] <NavracWork> IU guess so, its in the office somwhere, i was using it last week
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[11:54] <UpuWork> if anyones interested I put ATMEGA328P TQFP's on HAB Supplies
[11:54] <UpuWork> and some SMA end launches and joiners etc
[11:54] <wibble_> UpuWork: thanks for my EZCAP :)
[11:56] <mattbrejza> UpuWork: might as well put ds18b20s, pressure sensors and whatever else
[11:56] <costyn> hehehe
[11:56] <costyn> one-stop hab-shop
[11:57] <mattbrejza> you could mass produce canon 'fake' battery to bare wire adapters
[11:57] <UpuWork> welcome Wibble
[11:57] <UpuWork> well possibly Matt :)
[11:57] <UpuWork> I didn't intend to be a component shop :)
[11:58] <mattbrejza> yea i was tihnking hab specific stuff
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[11:58] <costyn> UpuWork: are sales good?
[11:58] <mattbrejza> are there any sensors you could get in quantity like the gps modules?
[12:03] <costyn> UpuWork: new RFM breakout looks nice! :)
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[12:15] <mattbrejza> is there a tps61200 breakout board
[12:15] <mattbrejza> mind you sparkfun do one?
[12:15] <mattbrejza> might not be worth it
[12:17] <Darkside> lipower
[12:17] <Darkside> that's basically a TPS621200 breakout
[12:17] <Darkside> 61200*
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[12:56] <UpuWork> sorry back
[12:56] <UpuWork> yeah I redid the RFM22B breakout
[12:57] <UpuWork> made it more bread board friendly
[12:58] <UpuWork> costyn yes not bad
[12:58] <UpuWork> goes in cycles
[12:58] <UpuWork> like when Dave does something interesting with a Pi
[13:00] <UpuWork> do you need a breakout for that mattbrejza ?
[13:01] <UpuWork> I have an old uAVA board with one on I used for testing you can have if you want
[13:01] <UpuWork> 3.3V
[13:01] <mattbrejza> na i dont, just thought it might get wider use
[13:01] <UpuWork> ok
[13:01] <mattbrejza> i have a few of my little pcbs spare
[13:01] <mattbrejza> thanks anyway
[13:01] <UpuWork> yeah
[13:01] <UpuWork> nps
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[15:11] <wibble_> hmm not having much luck with sdr#
[15:11] <wibble_> getting red on the waterfall which I can only believe is no signal
[15:22] <UpuWork> www.join.me wibble start a session lets have a look
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[15:30] <wibble_> https://secure.join.me/682-182-027
[15:30] <UpuWork> ok I can see your screen
[15:30] <UpuWork> so what do you have transmitting
[15:30] <wibble_> just trying to get an FM station :)
[15:30] <UpuWork> ah ok
[15:31] <UpuWork> have you got a HAB Amp in front of it ?
[15:31] <wibble_> so 99.9 for BBC radio 1
[15:31] <wibble_> just an antenna attached
[15:31] <UpuWork> what antenna ?
[15:32] <wibble_> a omni-directional one :)
[15:32] <UpuWork> ok
[15:32] <wibble_> sorry can't be more specific
[15:32] <UpuWork> slide contrast down a little
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[15:32] <UpuWork> ok set center frequency to 98,900,000
[15:33] <UpuWork> zoom all the way out
[15:33] Action: wibble_ googles center frequency
[15:33] <UpuWork> odd
[15:34] <wibble_> it could be my antenna
[15:34] <UpuWork> ok remove the antenna and just stick a small piece of wire in there
[15:34] <UpuWork> anything really
[15:34] <wibble_> plz hold
[15:37] <UpuWork> you broke it :)
[15:37] <mfa298> I found I could get Broadcast FM stations with the basic magmount antenna but it only really worked if it was by (or ideally outside) the window.
[15:37] <wibble_> sorry just getting some wire in it!
[15:37] <UpuWork> in fairness its how I test them I just stick a paper clip in the end :/
[15:38] <UpuWork> if it gets Radio 2 all good
[15:38] <hibby> who's on r2 at this time?
[15:38] <UpuWork> no idea
[15:38] <UpuWork> Jimmy Saville ?
[15:39] <wibble_> lol
[15:39] <hibby> Such a shame that his riding school never got built.
[15:39] <UpuWork> center to 99,000,000
[15:39] <UpuWork> you can ignore frequency
[15:40] <UpuWork> ok wierd
[15:40] <UpuWork> ok try this
[15:40] <UpuWork> change center to 433,500,000
[15:40] <UpuWork> get your car key fob
[15:40] <UpuWork> put it near to the SDR
[15:40] <UpuWork> and press unlock
[15:41] <hibby> hahah
[15:41] <UpuWork> that works
[15:41] <hibby> classic. I used to crack out a good old DoS with my 430m radio in car parks
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[15:41] <wibble_> indeed perhaps I should go outside :)
[15:41] <hibby> 430MHz, that is, not lambda==430m
[15:41] <UpuWork> bit odd it can't get the commerical stations
[15:42] <wibble_> will see if I can find another antenna with an sma connector
[15:42] <wibble_> would you expect it to work with just a wire instead?
[15:43] <UpuWork> I would
[15:43] <wibble_> (sorry for the dumb questions!)
[15:44] <wibble_> will report back shortly!
[15:44] <UpuWork> cut a piece of wire 74cms long
[15:44] <UpuWork> thats 1 wavelength at 98Mhz
[15:44] <UpuWork> I think
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[15:45] <Upu> yay for ipv6...
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[15:45] <mfa298> I was about to suggest 75cm so something in that ballpark should be good
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[15:46] <Upu> tbh it should work with a paper clip, those stations are very strong
[15:46] <mfa298> that's a nice short ipv6 address.
[15:47] <UpuWork> technically its not , its just got lots of 0's in it :)
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[15:47] <UpuWork> oh actually
[15:48] <mfa298> but we can ignore them, all my ipv6 addresses are SLAAC or DHCPv6 so have lots of non-zeros
[15:48] <UpuWork> interesting I seem to ahve lost my static Ipv6 address
[15:49] <UpuWork> its meant to be 2a02:b80:12:1::4
[15:50] <mfa298> you're joined as Upu_M0UPU with that address.
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[15:52] <UpuWork> or not
[15:52] <costyn> been elbow deep in ipv6 all day :)
[15:52] <UpuWork> wier
[15:52] <UpuWork> wierd
[15:53] <hibby> network we're deploying is, by spec, not configured at all for ipv6
[15:54] <hibby> it seems that the UAE still has a chunk of addresses they're "using" but are available for use by "internal projects"
[15:54] <UpuWork> http://www.ripe.net/internet-coordination/ipv4-exhaustion/ipv4-available-pool-graph
[15:54] <hibby> since when have the UAE followed anyone else's rules...
[15:55] <costyn> UpuWork: heh... 1 /8 still available... not much
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[15:56] <UpuWork> not at the rate its goign
[15:56] <UpuWork> Mine you until the home/SMB routers start supporting it...
[15:56] <UpuWork> I have a "ipv6" compatable Zyxel £20 router here
[15:56] <UpuWork> Had it 9 months
[15:56] <UpuWork> still not had it working
[15:56] <costyn> heh
[15:56] <UpuWork> and Zyxel have just gone dead on me
[15:57] <UpuWork> it connects
[15:57] <UpuWork> and you can ping
[15:57] <UpuWork> but try a web page and it comes up with "your router is disconnected"
[15:57] <costyn> fab
[15:57] <UpuWork> I note this firmware isn't on the Zyxel site
[15:57] <mfa298> just not configuring ipv6 on the network can be a dangerous move. Most clients have it enabled by default and if someone brings in a pc advertising itself as a router those clients will start trying to use it aas an ipv6 router.
[15:58] <costyn> mfa298: ha! we had that at our office a month ago
[15:59] <costyn> mfa298: Chrome was acting up for some people, giving the dreaded 324 net::ERR_EMPTY_RESPONSE message, turns out on websites with AAAA records
[16:00] <costyn> mfa298: needed tcpdump to figure that one out :)
[16:00] <mfa298> my home router supports it but then the home router for ipv6 is a Solaris VM (Linux v6 iptables support was dodgy when I started playing with IPv6 and I wanted some level of firewalling)
[16:00] <mfa298> costyn: Seems a lot of network people like to just bury their heads in the sand about it thinking if they ignore it there won't be a problem.
[16:01] <costyn> mfa298: well we are rolling out ipv6 for a lot of our customers
[16:01] Action: mfa298 really must work out why my irssi session is on ipv4 not ipv6 :S
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[16:10] <mfa298> hmmm, that didn't seem to get me onto using IPv6 for irssi.
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[16:38] Nick change: Upu_M0UPU -> UpuWork
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[16:45] Action: mfa298 has probably spammed the channel with enough parts/joins for now so I'll give up on a bright IPv6 future for now.
[16:45] <daveake> Join Upu in ipv6 hell :D
[16:46] <Upu_M0UPU> I love it is the future...
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[16:47] Nick change: Upu_M0UPU -> UpuWork
[16:47] <mfa298> I've had IPv6 on my home network for years, I just can't make irssi use it :(
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[17:44] <NavracWork> 70cm is jammed tonight
[17:45] <arko> morning
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[17:48] <arko> eroomde: looks like the show is available here for watching now http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/space/ultimate-mars-challenge.html
[17:48] <arko> not sure if it works outside us
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[17:53] <eroomde> arko: thanks
[17:55] <eroomde> the requested video is not availble
[17:55] <eroomde> sigh
[17:56] <arko> DAMN YOU COPYRIGHT LAWS
[17:56] <arko> internet should be it's own country
[17:57] <Randomskk> have you not seen what happens when that happens
[17:59] <arko> :( wishful thinking
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[18:04] <MiniMail> .:19:44:47:. < arko> not sure if it works outside us
[18:04] <MiniMail> use secure-tunnel.com
[18:08] <arko> neat
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[19:18] <eroomde> there was one another amusing incident last night which i forgot to relay
[19:18] <eroomde> robert llewellyn came up to the lady guarding the door with the list and said
[19:19] <eroomde> 'hello, i'm robert llewellyn'
[19:19] <eroomde> 'yes.'
[19:19] <eroomde> [pause]
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[19:19] <eroomde> 'am i allowed in?'
[19:19] <eroomde> 'no.'
[19:22] <daveake> smeeeg
[19:22] <eroomde> it was just the way he said 'hello. i'm robert llewellyn'
[19:22] <eroomde> as if she was meant to faint
[19:23] <daveake> "I'm a celebrity let me in"
[19:23] <eroomde> yep
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[19:41] <daveake> Yeah, doesn't work for me either :p
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[19:47] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[19:57] <DrLuke> hi
[19:59] <Lunar_Lander> someone had a good tutorial for a Yagi antenna here
[20:00] <Lunar_Lander> can someone give me a hint where to find one?
[20:01] <DrLuke> ebay
[20:01] <DrLuke> $$$BFF1,200124.00,4845.56850,N,00814.60513,E*F52E Woohoo!
[20:01] <DrLuke> printf rules
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[20:24] <DrLuke> does the $$$ belong into the checksum?
[20:24] <DrLuke> or from where does it start counting?
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[20:25] <Lunar_Lander> I think the system uses just $$
[20:25] <jonsowman> the checksum does not include the $$
[20:25] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[20:26] <DrLuke> well, I can use as many $ as I want, right?
[20:26] <Lunar_Lander> but dl-fldigi uses them to recognize the start of a sentence
[20:26] <jonsowman> DrLuke: yes
[20:27] <DrLuke> jonsowman: ok thanks. Will the server filter it out, or will dl-fldigi just send 2$ ?
[20:27] <jonsowman> the latter
[20:28] <DrLuke> also, is using the time as the sentence ID safe?
[20:29] <DrLuke> or will that cause problems when it wraps around at midnight
[20:29] <Randomskk> just use a counter
[20:29] <jonsowman> yes, counter
[20:29] <DrLuke> alright
[20:30] <DrLuke> does it support hex IDs? :P
[20:30] <jonsowman> what do you mean by ID?
[20:31] <Randomskk> good question
[20:31] <Randomskk> not sure
[20:31] <Randomskk> use an integer
[20:31] <Randomskk> I mean to be honest
[20:31] <Randomskk> it doe
[20:31] <Randomskk> it.. well. habitat does
[20:31] <Randomskk> but spacenear.us might get sad
[20:31] <Randomskk> just use an integer >_>
[20:31] <Randomskk> a decimal integer >_>
[20:31] <DrLuke> :V ok
[20:32] <DrLuke> it would just be a more efficient use of the characters
[20:32] <DrLuke> less characters to transmit = less errors that can occur
[20:32] <arko> eroomde: just had an awesome meeting with circuit analysis folks
[20:32] <Randomskk> honestly not the biggest inefficiency
[20:32] <Randomskk> there are so many worse things in your transmission
[20:32] <arko> some neat tricks on how to handle temperature gradients on the HAB
[20:32] <DrLuke> yeah, I know
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[20:34] <eroomde> arko: yo
[20:34] <eroomde> go on
[20:34] <arko> turns out this special epoxy really helps "clump" the thermal properties
[20:34] <arko> preventing sharp temp gradients
[20:34] <arko> proper heatsinking techniques
[20:34] <eroomde> can mortals buy it?
[20:35] <arko> yes
[20:35] <arko> one of the guys is going to email me suggested materials
[20:35] <arko> rad turns out is not a huge problem
[20:35] <arko> but still interesting to learn about
[20:35] <arko> the one thing that i didnt get answered is how do lipo's live at 1% atm
[20:35] <arko> i figure someone here would know :P
[20:36] <eroomde> well, i think they're ok when still liquid
[20:36] <eroomde> but if they start to get some gas forming on the electrodes through over discharge or whatever, that will only encourage them to puff up
[20:37] <arko> i noticed they are vaccuum packed(ish)
[20:37] <eroomde> so what did they say about rad hardening?
[20:37] <arko> they wont puff or pop at low pressure?
[20:37] <arko> that they are stupid expensive
[20:37] <arko> hahaha
[20:38] <arko> but it was interesting to learn how you can get voltage spikes on power transistors if they are hit by a single event
[20:38] <arko> it can cook fpga's
[20:38] <nigelvh> I've taken them down to 1 or 2 mBar in a chamber before. They do fine.
[20:38] <arko> even if it's momentary
[20:38] <arko> nigelvh, cool
[20:38] <arko> im expecting 10mB
[20:38] <arko> ar
[20:38] <DrLuke> radiation is nasty
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[20:38] <arko> http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/msl/multimedia/pia16479.html
[20:39] <arko> neat!
[20:39] <DrLuke> my physics professor is working on those extremely tiny transistors consisted out of a couple atoms
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[20:39] <arko> this data was just released today
[20:39] <DrLuke> and I always think that they must be super fragile
[20:39] <nigelvh> I also haven't had any issues with them at colder temperatures, but I tend to use larger ones so they've got some thermal mass.
[20:39] <eroomde> as i say, i think the issue with lipos is that when they get a bit upset they start to get gaseous nucleation on the electrodes
[20:39] <arko> that makes sense
[20:39] <eroomde> and that will do you a badness at low pressure
[20:39] <arko> so protect the electrodes?
[20:39] <eroomde> but if they're healthy, they should be ok
[20:40] <nigelvh> In summary, don't over discharge, or overcharge.
[20:40] <eroomde> yeah, protect them by now ovcercharging or overdischarging or discharging too quickly
[20:40] <arko> ok
[20:40] <eroomde> if you notice some puff, loose them
[20:40] <eroomde> we were good at puffing them on our robotic blimp
[20:41] <DrLuke> does habitat/spacenear.us expect coordinates with a sign instead of the N/S indicator?
[20:41] <nigelvh> It seems modern cells tend to do a pretty good job unless you're really abusing them.
[20:41] <eroomde> i was abusing them a bit
[20:42] <eroomde> full throttle was about 120A
[20:42] <eroomde> from 5Ah cells
[20:42] <nigelvh> Yeah.
[20:42] <eroomde> and that was to get it out of some hairy situations on an avalanche field
[20:43] <nigelvh> I think I recall seeing a video of your blimp.
[20:44] <DrLuke> ah what the hell, why does my latitude have 5 places before the decimal point
[20:44] <DrLuke> will the tracker be bothered by that? Because in the format thing there's only a ddmm.mmmm setting
[20:45] <Randomskk> it's fine
[20:45] <Randomskk> the digits don't represent number of places
[20:45] <Randomskk> just the option of either decimal degrees or degrees, minutes and seconds
[20:45] <Randomskk> I don't think north/south is supported iirc
[20:45] <Randomskk> just +0
[20:45] <Randomskk> +-
[20:45] <DrLuke> ah
[20:45] <DrLuke> then I need to edit my strings... >_<
[20:46] <Randomskk> http://habitat.readthedocs.org/en/latest/ukhas_parser.html#coordinate-fields
[20:46] <Randomskk> docs
[20:47] <eroomde> nigelvh: i almost considered putting a small solid motor strap-on on to it
[20:47] <eroomde> ignited by a jesus-button on the remote
[20:47] <eroomde> for those holy shit moments
[20:48] <eroomde> which happened quite a lot in the alps
[20:48] <nigelvh> Just make sure you're pointed in the right direction....
[20:48] <eroomde> the winds there were terrifying, deadly, random, viscious, schitzophernic
[20:48] <DrLuke> Randomskk: but the docs say something else than you just did
[20:48] <nigelvh> Winds tend to do that in the mountains.
[20:48] <eroomde> and you couldn;t fight them with electric motors if you got caiught is some of the wierd ones
[20:48] <DrLuke> it says it'll take the 2 first digits as the degrees, all the rest as minutes
[20:49] <Randomskk> there we go then
[20:49] <Randomskk> you should do that
[20:49] <Randomskk> that's interesting though, I wonder what it doies for 100 degrees
[20:49] <DrLuke> hmm
[20:49] <DrLuke> it's quite simply
[20:49] <DrLuke> no habbing beyond 99°E/W
[20:49] <DrLuke> problem solved :P
[20:49] <Randomskk> you could do what everyone else does and use decimal degrees
[20:49] <nigelvh> Thanks a lot!
[20:49] <Randomskk> :P
[20:49] <nigelvh> No habbing for me at -122
[20:50] <DrLuke> ;(
[20:50] <DrLuke> randomskk: that sucks, I am using gpgga
[20:50] <DrLuke> and I've already built my entire parsing mechanism around that
[20:50] <Randomskk> https://github.com/ukhas/habitat/blob/develop/habitat/sensors/stdtelem.py#L70-72
[20:50] <Randomskk> lots of people use gpgga
[20:50] <Randomskk> you just like
[20:50] <Randomskk> convert it
[20:50] <Randomskk> but anyway
[20:50] <DrLuke> oh
[20:50] <Randomskk> looks like it actually takes the degrees to be all the digits except the last two
[20:50] <Randomskk> and the minutes to be the last two
[20:51] <Randomskk> so the docs are wrong
[20:51] <DrLuke> Somebody (TM) should fix that
[20:52] <nigelvh> YAY -482 degrees for meee!
[20:52] <DrLuke> haha
[20:52] <Randomskk> https://github.com/ukhas/habitat/issues/272
[20:52] <Randomskk> there you go
[20:52] <Randomskk> it'l get fixed one day soon
[20:53] <DrLuke> :)
[20:53] <DrLuke> gotta love github
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[20:59] <arko> i guess the env testing will bring out any puffing
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[21:06] <eroomde> you def want to use lipos for this app arko ?
[21:07] <arko> what would you recommend?
[21:08] <eroomde> lithium primary cells if for a normal hab
[21:08] <eroomde> better power density
[21:08] <eroomde> much better low temp pterformance
[21:08] <arko> hmm
[21:08] <eroomde> AA form factor is kida pressure agnostic
[21:08] <arko> have any recommended brands?
[21:08] <eroomde> almost all of us over here use energizer lithium ultimate cells
[21:08] <eroomde> AA or AAA
[21:09] <arko> no way
[21:09] <arko> seriously?
[21:09] <eroomde> they've been the defacto standard for years
[21:09] <arko> haha
[21:09] <arko> that awesome
[21:09] <arko> what voltage do they add up to?
[21:09] <arko> i know
[21:09] <arko> you can configure them
[21:09] <eroomde> check that datasheet
[21:09] <eroomde> the numbers are amazing
[21:09] <arko> zeusbot is awesome
[21:09] <arko> swet
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[21:10] <eroomde> 4.5Wh per 14g cell
[21:10] <arko> holy crap
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[21:10] <arko> wow
[21:10] <arko> these are some serious batteries
[21:10] <eroomde> yeah!
[21:10] <eroomde> use them one on a flight
[21:10] <eroomde> then put them in wireless keyboard/mouse
[21:11] <arko> LOL
[21:11] <arko> thats awesome
[21:11] <Laurenceb_> interesting - stm32l1 beats or matches msp430 on everything accept startup time
[21:11] <arko> and the mouse like lands forever
[21:11] <arko> lasts*
[21:12] <Lunar_Lander> arko, I used four of the ultimate lithium and my current consumption is about 110 mA
[21:12] <Lunar_Lander> and it lasted for 38 hours
[21:12] <arko> hmm
[21:12] <arko> i need 12v :/
[21:12] <arko> i guess i can just set them up in series
[21:13] <arko> thats a big ass battery
[21:13] <eroomde> 110mA!?
[21:13] <eroomde> what are you running Lunar_Lander ?
[21:13] <Lunar_Lander> the ublox, NTX2, a green LED behind a 470 Ohm resistor, BMP085, DS18B20, HIH-4030 and the arduino pro mega 3.3V
[21:14] <eroomde> active antenna?
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[21:14] <mattbrejza> Laurenceb_: the msp430 is less effort :P
[21:14] <Laurenceb_> nah
[21:14] <Lunar_Lander> eroomde, no just two wires
[21:14] <eroomde> i mean on the gps
[21:14] <Laurenceb_> mattbrejza: but it does have chipcon built in
[21:15] <mattbrejza> there is that
[21:15] <Laurenceb_> ive been playing with L1discovery today
[21:15] <Laurenceb_> got touch sensing working
[21:15] <mattbrejza> but you only get one msp430 wit ha radio
[21:15] <Lunar_Lander> eroomde, I got upu's ublox with the sarantel
[21:15] <eroomde> ok
[21:15] <Lunar_Lander> that draws 60 mA if I remember correctly
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[21:16] <mattbrejza> i assume everything includes power?
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[21:17] <mattbrejza> or power/performance
[21:17] <eroomde> arko: also, i have boring but strong opinions about battery holders too
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[21:17] <eroomde> most of them are terrible
[21:17] <SP9UOB> Hi all
[21:17] <arko> boring is good
[21:17] <eroomde> like, contact resistance of 2 ohms
[21:17] <arko> it needs to work
[21:17] <DrLuke> hi sp9uon
[21:18] <SP9UOB> hi ;-)
[21:18] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[21:18] <eroomde> but having bought about 9 or 10 once from difference brands, having been def up, i concluded the bulgin ones were great
[21:18] <Lunar_Lander> eroomde, and also mechanically?
[21:18] <arko> link?
[21:18] <eroomde> they've actually had a proper engineer sit down and have a go at the problem
[21:18] <Lunar_Lander> I once had my battery holder falling from the table and the batteries jumped out
[21:18] <DrLuke> sp9uob: have you ever been to jastrzebie?
[21:18] <eroomde> yeah, also mechanically
[21:18] <SP9UOB> DrLuke: 2, 3 times
[21:18] <DrLuke> that's where my grandparents live :D
[21:19] <SP9UOB> DrLuke: jastrzebie zdroj ?
[21:19] <DrLuke> yep
[21:19] <eroomde> i am using the panel mount ip67 ones for a forthcoming payload
[21:19] <eroomde> but the naked ones are also good
[21:19] <SP9UOB> DrLuke: so, do You speak polish ?
[21:19] <eroomde> Lunar_Lander: tape the batteries down regardless
[21:19] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[21:19] <arko> wow
[21:19] <arko> these look solid
[21:19] <DrLuke> SP9UOB: I speak it, can't write it though :P
[21:19] <arko> yeah im taping this thing up
[21:19] <SP9UOB> Lunar_Lander: Jastrzebie is not so far from gliwice
[21:19] <DrLuke> and I'm a bit rusty in speaking it
[21:19] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[21:20] <eroomde> flew their PP3 holders on martlet
[21:20] <eroomde> which was a 2 stage high power rocket we built for a launch in may
[21:20] <eroomde> they're also very good. really solidly held
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[21:20] <SP9UOB> I just make RFM02 to work with 425Hz shift :-)
[21:20] <arko> sweet
[21:21] <arko> i just need 12 AA batteries >_<
[21:21] <arko> oh
[21:21] <Randomskk> jeez
[21:21] <Randomskk> can't you use a stepup?
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[21:21] <Randomskk> what're you powering?
[21:21] <G7PMO_Kev_> lol, might be rather heavy :)
[21:21] <arko> i mean 8
[21:21] <Randomskk> even so
[21:21] <arko> but still alot
[21:21] <Randomskk> how come you can't just use a step-up psu?
[21:21] <arko> hmm
[21:21] <jonsowman> 112 grams
[21:21] <arko> no real reason
[21:21] <Randomskk> the amount of current those lithium primaries can deliver is pretty decent
[21:21] <SP9UOB> arko: or 4 CR123A
[21:22] <arko> ohh
[21:22] <arko> those are nice
[21:22] <Randomskk> cr123a lithium primaries are also nice
[21:22] <Randomskk> more faff to find good holders
[21:22] <arko> how do they live through cold?
[21:22] <G7PMO_Kev_> Talking about step-up PSU's, I am getting very very frustrated with a Sparkfun LiPower board....
[21:22] <Randomskk> G7PMO_Kev_: hah. I bet.
[21:22] <Randomskk> switch mode power supplies are the devil
[21:22] <G7PMO_Kev_> I can not seem to get 3.3v from it!
[21:22] <SP9UOB> 4 of them working 10 hours with 1Watt tx in my last flight
[21:23] <eroomde> by my sums, my new tracker should last about 5 days with 3 x AA
[21:23] <Lunar_Lander> arko, btw why do you need 12 V
[21:23] <arko> radio is 12v
[21:23] <natrium42> < Randomskk> more faff to find good holders
[21:23] <natrium42> you can disassemble them
[21:23] <G7PMO_Kev_> eroomde - cool
[21:23] <natrium42> they have AA size cells inside
[21:24] <eroomde> BX0123
[21:24] <eroomde> that's their cr123 holder
[21:24] <eroomde> http://bulgin.co.uk/Products/BatteryHolders/batts_images/BX0123-400px.jpg
[21:24] <arko> Lunar_Lander: is that too much?
[21:24] <natrium42> wait, wrong battery
[21:24] <arko> im being a lame-o and using the byonics as the primary radio
[21:25] <arko> then our own designs for the other radios
[21:25] <Lunar_Lander> I don't know that one, sorry
[21:25] <Lunar_Lander> the Yaesu FT-790R takes 8 size C batteries
[21:25] <arko> http://www.byonics.com/mt-rtg
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[21:28] <natrium42> http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/crv3.pdf
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[21:28] <eroomde> arko: i really like the traco integrated pcb mount dcdc converters
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[21:28] <eroomde> i use them for lots of things at work
[21:28] <eroomde> and rate them highly
[21:28] <natrium42> just use CRV3, it has two AA cells inside
[21:28] <eroomde> might be worth considering for a simple solution to generating 12V
[21:30] <G7PMO_Kev_> I have a problem with the Sparkfun LiPower boards, I can't get 2 of them working, I take the board, solder the 3.3v jumper, short R3 to disable the LV Cutout and whatever voltage I put in (0.5 through to 5v) I get a nice steady 1.4v out! Shorting the 5v jumper I get 4.8v (close enough). Can anyone spot what I am doing wrong....
[21:30] <eroomde> they do galvanic isolation between input and output too, which is super nice.... but probably of zero use for your application
[21:31] <arko> nice
[21:31] <arko> this is perfect
[21:31] <arko> http://www.psui.com/traco.htm
[21:31] <arko> right?
[21:31] <arko> so weird
[21:32] <arko> this thing does up and down?
[21:32] <eroomde> yeah those kinds of things
[21:32] <arko> did i read that correctly?
[21:32] <eroomde> yep
[21:32] <arko> wtf
[21:32] <arko> this is amazing
[21:32] <Randomskk> buck-boost
[21:32] <eroomde> you can get up ones and down ones
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[21:32] <arko> how is this not more popular?
[21:32] <Randomskk> it's not super rare
[21:32] <eroomde> they're a bit more pricey
[21:32] <Randomskk> because making them work / designing them is awful
[21:32] <Randomskk> they are bastard weird non linear control systems
[21:32] <eroomde> but they are popular where galvanic isolation is useful
[21:32] <Randomskk> with exciting failur emodes
[21:32] <Randomskk> like fire
[21:33] <eroomde> i've never seen one catch fire :)
[21:33] <Randomskk> no I have always removed power before that was an issue
[21:33] <Randomskk> but I've seen them fail where they just short the inductor through the supply
[21:33] <arko> hah
[21:33] <Randomskk> I mean they're sooo good
[21:34] <Randomskk> up to 99% efficient and basically any input voltage to any output voltage you want
[21:34] <Randomskk> but a bit harder than an LDO
[21:34] <eroomde> and galvanic isolation!!
[21:34] <eroomde> the like dance up and down glorious property
[21:34] <Laurenceb_> heh
[21:34] <eroomde> that suddenly makes mechatronics 100 times easier
[21:34] <Randomskk> and sometimes even the "should be fine" integrated ones are sad
[21:34] <Randomskk> http://www.flickr.com/photos/randomskk/6807411917/in/set-72157628015795778
[21:34] <eroomde> goodbye to ground loops
[21:34] <Randomskk> there's a 3v3 and a 22v one
[21:34] <Laurenceb_> i use some similar way more expensive stuff for usb isolation
[21:34] <Randomskk> but the 22v line just doesn't come up
[21:35] <Randomskk> it has the exactly right input and output capactivors
[21:35] <Randomskk> capacitors*
[21:35] <Randomskk> and sometimes it works
[21:35] <Randomskk> and then mostly it doesn't
[21:35] <eroomde> Randomskk: ah i think we're talking about slightly different things
[21:35] <Randomskk> well
[21:35] <Randomskk> I mean I was generally ranting about dc-dc
[21:36] <eroomde> ah
[21:36] <Randomskk> and yea, those ones also aren't galvanically isolated
[21:36] <eroomde> the little traco bricks are what i'm specifically on about
[21:36] <eroomde> as they do the isolation
[21:36] <Randomskk> and work? :P
[21:38] <eroomde> yeah!
[21:38] <eroomde> totally brilliantly
[21:38] <eroomde> like that psu i had to do recently
[21:38] <eroomde> with outputs of 80V, 15V, 12V, and -9V
[21:38] <Randomskk> oh man. my housemate had some leftover brandied up fruit stuff from the christmas cake he's making us
[21:38] <eroomde> just buy the appropriate dc dc bricks
[21:38] <Randomskk> so he made some incredible shortcrust pastry and put the leftover fruit into them
[21:38] <eroomde> put on veryboard
[21:38] <Randomskk> amazing
[21:38] <eroomde> wiring job, donee
[21:38] <eroomde> http://i.imgur.com/omrqF.jpg
[21:38] <arko> woah
[21:38] <arko> what is that?
[21:38] <Randomskk> eroomde: nice
[21:39] <arko> very clean
[21:39] <eroomde> those are the converters on the veroboard on the left
[21:39] <Randomskk> lol crimps for putting wires into screw terminals :P
[21:39] <eroomde> the 2 things on the right are mains to 40V dc
[21:39] <eroomde> Randomskk: yes ofcourse
[21:39] <eroomde> they're paying good money for it
[21:39] <eroomde> i'll do it properly
[21:39] <arko> nice
[21:40] <Randomskk> so yea http://www.flickr.com/photos/randomskk/6808344648
[21:40] <eroomde> and the nice thing about the galvanic isolation is that say for the -9V line
[21:40] <Randomskk> I should probably shrink the heatshrink on the mains wiring
[21:40] <eroomde> i just use a 9V dc-dc
[21:40] <eroomde> and connect +V to the gnd of the other ones
[21:40] <Randomskk> eroomde: oh hah, nice. yea.
[21:41] <Randomskk> that is all very handy
[21:41] <eroomde> even though they're all on the same 40V dc input bus
[21:41] <eroomde> yeah
[21:41] <eroomde> it is
[21:41] <eroomde> they're splendid things
[21:41] <eroomde> but also really good on the rocket test rigs
[21:42] <eroomde> as the engines and plumbing like being current return paths
[21:42] <eroomde> which is badness
[21:42] <eroomde> so having everything floating is nice
[21:42] <navrac> G7PMO_Kev_ ru still there?
[21:42] <G7PMO_Kev_> yup
[21:42] <eroomde> my pressure sensors won't be being pulled down by the glow plug power supply, forex
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[21:43] <navrac> think the reason it doesnt work is that by shorting out r3 you are upsetting the voltage divider that provides feedback for the output control
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[21:44] <navrac> sorry i take that back - ive just noticed it says gnd on the schematic
[21:45] <navrac> I think that layout wont work with 3v3 output with a low input.
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[21:46] <navrac> the wife is telling me ive got to go - I'll have a look in the morning but that doesnt look right to me - also worth checking with upu - he uses those chips
[21:46] <G7PMO_Kev_> I did think about that, especially as the ground is done in an odd way on that pcb - http://www.sparkfun.com/datasheets/Prototyping/LiPower-v11.pdf
[21:46] <Upu> sup ?
[21:46] <G7PMO_Kev_> navrac - kevin@unseen.org if I am not around, all help gratefully rx'ed
[21:47] <G7PMO_Kev_> Hi Upu
[21:47] <arko> i still haven't found a good vectran source
[21:47] <Upu> evening
[21:47] <arko> without filling out paperwork
[21:47] <arko> sup Upu
[21:47] <Dan-K2VOL> hey upu
[21:47] <G7PMO_Kev_> UpU - The problem was : I have a problem with the Sparkfun LiPower boards, I can't get 2 of them working, I take the board, solder the 3.3v jumper, short R3 to disable the LV Cutout and whatever voltage I put in (0.5 through to 5v) I get a nice steady 1.4v out! Shorting the 5v jumper I get 4.8v (close enough). Can anyone spot what I am doing wrong....
[21:47] <Dan-K2VOL> hi navrac
[21:47] <Dan-K2VOL> good luck
[21:47] <Upu> linky ?
[21:47] <G7PMO_Kev_> https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10255
[21:48] <SP9UOB> evening Upu
[21:48] <eroomde> arko: what's the vectran for?
[21:48] <navrac> i think they havent connected the power ground to control ground, so the feedback loop is being disturbed
[21:48] <Upu> sec just grabbing eagle files
[21:48] <Lunar_Lander> hello Upu
[21:49] <Dan-K2VOL> anyone ever play with PLL and clock divider/multiplier circuits?
[21:49] <Upu> dum dee dum ok so its the variable one
[21:49] <navrac> in the comments on the sparkfun site there is a suggestion on how to bypass uvlo
[21:49] <Upu> and can switch between 5v and 3.3V out
[21:49] <Upu> ok
[21:49] <Upu> whats it doing ?
[21:49] <Lunar_Lander> hi Dan-K2VOL, how are you today?
[21:49] <navrac> dan-k2vol yes - but the wifes calling me so i have to run
[21:49] <G7PMO_Kev_> I used the 'bypass' sugestion from here: http://www.circuitsathome.com/dc-dc/tps61200-board-modifications-part-1-changing-undervoltage-lockout
[21:49] <eroomde> Dan-K2VOL: i have done some stuff with them. but not much familiarity to debug
[21:50] <G7PMO_Kev_> which is linked from the main txt
[21:50] <Upu> whats the issue with it ?
[21:50] <Dan-K2VOL> ttyl navrac
[21:50] <G7PMO_Kev_> the power ground to control ground thing did seem weird, and not as per the data sheet
[21:50] <G7PMO_Kev_> upu - giving out a nice stable 1.4v, instead of 3.3v!
[21:51] <Dan-K2VOL> oh eroomde I was considering putting a GPS directed PLL in to do the frequency drift control of the RFM22
[21:51] <Upu> what do you have the jumpers set too ?
[21:51] <eroomde> Dan-K2VOL: i think that's an awesome idea. i think navrac has had a go too
[21:51] <Upu> 5V ?
[21:51] <navrac> i'd try taking the gnd pin to the real gnd and see if that sorts it , better go, wife is at clicking her fingers stage.....
[21:51] <G7PMO_Kev_> upu - set at 5v it gives 4.8v or so - stable across a rnage of inputs, but with jumper at 3.3v it give 1.4v - stable across a range of inputs
[21:52] <Upu> ok 1 sec
[21:52] <Upu> got as multimeter ?
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[21:52] <G7PMO_Kev_> yup
[21:52] <Laurenceb_> eroomde: ever played with linear actuators?
[21:52] <Upu> measure R5 and R6
[21:52] <Laurenceb_> ive been experimenting with my firgelli L12
[21:52] <eroomde> Laurenceb_: a bit
[21:52] <Dan-K2VOL> eroomde, I wish the ublox 6 would output a faster timepulse, it will only do up to 1kHz
[21:52] <Laurenceb_> its not really good enough for what i need :-/
[21:52] <eroomde> Dan-K2VOL: false
[21:52] <Laurenceb_> very good tronics wise
[21:52] <navrac> dan - briefly you can get 6mhz out of the max6 when it has lock - but it isnt quite as clean as desired and when no lock its dreadful
[21:52] <eroomde> the timing modules do programmable up to 10MHz
[21:53] <Laurenceb_> pic16f with esd protection etc
[21:53] <eroomde> eg neo-6t and lea-6t
[21:53] <Dan-K2VOL> interesting navrac
[21:53] <Dan-K2VOL> how can you?
[21:53] <G7PMO_Kev_> upu - measuring resitances on ther is really weird, it is like a capacitor is interferring with the measurments - they change over time!
[21:53] <Laurenceb_> but it seems the backlash in the gearmotor is too high
[21:53] <Dan-K2VOL> the spec sheet doesn't indicate that
[21:53] <eroomde> Dan-K2VOL: they are the timing variants
[21:53] <Upu> disconnect it
[21:53] <eroomde> of the standard models
[21:53] <navrac> yep 6meg np - i then stuck iut thru a x5 and put it straight into the rfm clock in
[21:53] <eroomde> they have 2 timing pulse outputs
[21:53] <G7PMO_Kev_> upu - that is when it is disconnected from input and output
[21:53] <Laurenceb_> eroomde: i increased the drive voltage to 15v from 5v
[21:53] <Upu> should be able to measure across the resistor
[21:54] <Dan-K2VOL> I think you're thinking of the LEA model
[21:54] <G7PMO_Kev_> 2 secsm let me get it in front of me again
[21:54] <Laurenceb_> its nice and fast, but it oscillates now :-/
[21:54] <Dan-K2VOL> upu's using the MAX-6 model
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[21:54] <arko> eroomde: i wanted to make a wallet :)
[21:54] <eroomde> the worlds strongest lightest wallet?
[21:54] <Dan-K2VOL> cool navrac, I"ll look more into it, thanks
[21:54] <Laurenceb_> do you think ill be able to get anything like decent performance by rolling my own control loop?
[21:54] <navrac> the standard ones from upu do 6mhz honest - just run ucentre and set it to 6mhz
[21:54] <arko> most badass wallet ever
[21:54] <Laurenceb_> everyone is pestering you eroomde, sorry
[21:54] <Upu> give me 2 mins to do some maths and work out what that combination of resistors gives you
[21:54] <eroomde> i'm used to it
[21:54] <eroomde> Laurenceb_: i suspect you might be able to
[21:55] <Laurenceb_> ok
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[21:55] <eroomde> we rolled our own for ours, they worked out ok
[21:55] <navrac> right must really be off, no sex for a week if i dont
[21:55] <Laurenceb_> it seems its factory tuned for 5v
[21:55] <eroomde> just simple pid
[21:55] <arko> i was inspired by this http://www.tomsachs.org/item/nikecraft-mars-yard-shoe
[21:55] <Laurenceb_> at 7v, it starts to oscillate
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[21:55] <Laurenceb_> im not sure how the maths works
[21:55] <eroomde> yeah you'd have to crank up the gain and stuff for the new one
[21:55] <Laurenceb_> and if the 5v speed is the maximum possible for the hardware with pid
[21:55] <eroomde> Laurenceb_: oh oh oh i have a pic for you!
[21:55] <Laurenceb_> if at 15v i will have to tune it down so its just as slow as at 5v
[21:55] <eroomde> our 2nd generation rocket engines and actuators
[21:55] <eroomde> for the hovering rocket
[21:56] <eroomde> took it today
[21:56] <arko> vectran is my 5th favorite material
[21:56] <Laurenceb_> interesting
[21:56] <eroomde> arko: ok i'll bite
[21:56] <arko> :P
[21:56] <Laurenceb_> eroomde: my plan for next week was to bolt a 20mm stepper onto the end of the firgelli
[21:56] <arko> i want those shoes
[21:56] <Laurenceb_> massive overkill or sane?
[21:56] <arko> IM WALKING ON MARS AIRBAGS
[21:57] <G7PMO_Kev_> upu - so, R5, starts at 200K and keeps rising, is up to 300k within 5 seconds
[21:57] <arko> it seems fun
[21:57] <G7PMO_Kev_> board is totally disconnected from everything
[21:57] <eroomde> http://i.imgur.com/MIehY.jpg
[21:57] <eroomde> so that's the new much shorter engine
[21:57] <Laurenceb_> i need to track someones arm moving at a few cm/s
[21:57] <eroomde> with better C* (hopefully) cos of the pintle injector
[21:57] <eroomde> and the new linear actuators
[21:57] <eroomde> with a better thrust bearing design
[21:57] <Laurenceb_> and apply forces that result in ~+-3mm over 50ms
[21:58] <Laurenceb_> repeatable to +-0.2mm
[21:58] <eroomde> and the new clampy clamp as opposed to welding actuator lugs
[21:58] <Laurenceb_> so far im getting nothing like the preformance i need
[21:58] <Laurenceb_> checking photo...
[21:58] <Upu> G7PMO_Kev well the values of resistors given on the schematic do give 3.3v
[21:58] <Upu> so
[21:58] <Laurenceb_> niceee
[21:58] <arko> wow
[21:58] <G7PMO_Kev_> upu - indeed :(
[21:58] <Laurenceb_> those actuators look hardcore
[21:58] <Upu> are you 100% sure the jumpter isn't shorted ?
[21:58] <mattbrejza> eroomde: the 'fire' end and the fuel end needed labling?
[21:59] <G7PMO_Kev_> and the numbers printed one R's are right
[21:59] <eroomde> just incase :)
[21:59] <G7PMO_Kev_> one = on
[21:59] <mattbrejza> also nice :)
[21:59] <eroomde> when it's in the lathe you sometimes need a helpful reminder
[21:59] <Laurenceb_> eroomde: what motors for the actuators?
[21:59] <eroomde> just basic ones from RS atm
[21:59] <Laurenceb_> stepper or brushed or what?
[21:59] <mattbrejza> its probably hard to make that mistake now though
[21:59] <eroomde> but currently looking at brushless dcand designing a controller for them
[21:59] <Laurenceb_> sweet
[21:59] <eroomde> oh just brushed dc
[21:59] <Laurenceb_> i see
[21:59] <eroomde> right now
[21:59] <Laurenceb_> direct drive of the leadscrew?
[22:00] <eroomde> yep
[22:00] <Laurenceb_> i see
[22:00] <Laurenceb_> do you think http://uk.farnell.com/astrosyn/my7001/stepper-motor-14-20mm/dp/8425914
[22:00] <Laurenceb_> is sane to direct drive a screw?
[22:00] <G7PMO_Kev_> with the jumper shorted on 3.3v, the R between the 5v side and the shorted side is about 900k and growing
[22:00] <eroomde> well, via a coupler which allows our thrust assembly to do its thing
[22:00] <Laurenceb_> so you avoid backlash as theres no gearbox right?
[22:01] <eroomde> Laurenceb_: well, it works okish
[22:01] <Laurenceb_> i see
[22:01] <eroomde> but we wanted the shape to be quite compact and inline
[22:01] <Laurenceb_> something i think i may be seeing on my firgelli thing is piss poor pot behaviour
[22:01] <eroomde> but a future version might get a small planetray gearbox inline
[22:01] <Laurenceb_> do they need to be worn in or something?
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[22:01] <G7PMO_Kev_> upu - I see the same resistance getting higher thing on 2 different meters, with 2 different cables it is weird
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[22:01] <eroomde> i don;t think so? but don;t know
[22:01] <Laurenceb_> yeah i have a planetary
[22:02] <eroomde> not in the background to that photo
[22:02] <eroomde> my favourite toy of the moment
[22:02] <Laurenceb_> its giving me all the control grief
[22:02] <eroomde> the rohde & schwarz ZVL
[22:02] <Upu> if the resistors were shorted out I'd expect 2.2V
[22:02] <Laurenceb_> having said all this - i havent hooked it up to the outer PID loop
[22:02] <Upu> what did you say you got again when in 3.3V?
[22:02] <Laurenceb_> that control applied pressure
[22:02] <G7PMO_Kev_> 1.4v
[22:02] <Upu> well
[22:02] <Laurenceb_> that might just calm things down.. ill try that tomorrow
[22:03] <Laurenceb_> if it fails its bodge s 20mm stepper on the end time
[22:03] <Upu> the minimum voltage is 1.8V
[22:03] <Upu> so something broken
[22:04] <G7PMO_Kev_> this is the second one I have had from them, similar problems on the first.
[22:04] <eroomde> arko: lol at the shoes
[22:04] <Upu> I'm not sure in that case
[22:04] <Upu> circuit seems ok
[22:05] <arko> :P
[22:05] <arko> tom has a pair
[22:05] <arko> i cant find them for more than $2000 now
[22:05] <G7PMO_Kev_> the first one I replaced the chip with a TPS61201, but my soldering isnt good enough :(
[22:05] <Upu> you'd have to hot air it off
[22:05] <Laurenceb_> eroomde: what sort of linear pot did you use?
[22:05] <Upu> the 201 is 3.3V
[22:05] <Upu> fixed
[22:06] <G7PMO_Kev_> yea I did, just couldnt get it lined up closely enough to put the 01 back on properly
[22:06] <Upu> you'd have to remove R6
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[22:06] <Upu> put an R0 on R5
[22:06] <eroomde> Laurenceb_: one from farnell
[22:06] <eroomde> can look up the number
[22:06] <Upu> and remove R7 too
[22:06] <eroomde> a linear pressure one
[22:06] <Upu> post one up to me I could do it I think
[22:06] <Laurenceb_> linear _pressure_ ??
[22:06] <Upu> got another 201 ?
[22:07] <Laurenceb_> oh
[22:07] <Laurenceb_> one of those flexi pressure thingys?
[22:07] <eroomde> Laurenceb_: sorry bad wording
[22:07] <eroomde> i mean
[22:07] <eroomde> it's a linear pot
[22:07] <G7PMO_Kev_> upu - yup, would you?
[22:07] <eroomde> to parallel plates
[22:07] <eroomde> two*
[22:07] <Laurenceb_> i thought yeah meant powerglove type stuff for a sec there
[22:07] <Laurenceb_> was going to say
[22:07] <G7PMO_Kev_> upu - that would be great
[22:07] <Upu> sure I can't guarantee I won't knacker it but can give it go
[22:07] <Laurenceb_> *you
[22:08] <G7PMO_Kev_> upu - nothong to loose :)
[22:08] <Upu> You have my address ?
[22:08] <G7PMO_Kev_> upu - nope, want to email it to me rather than on here?
[22:08] <Upu> PM
[22:08] <G7PMO_Kev_> kevin@unseen.org
[22:08] <G7PMO_Kev_> yea ok
[22:08] <eroomde> and then a little knobby thing on the actuator carriage presses against the fixed strips
[22:09] <eroomde> and the position where it presses changes the resistence
[22:09] <Laurenceb_> i see
[22:09] <Upu> get the PM Kevin ?
[22:10] <Laurenceb_> http://uk.farnell.com/multicomp/sp-l-0100-st/sensor-linear-membrane-100mm/dp/1734691
[22:10] <Laurenceb_> like that?
[22:10] <eroomde> yeah exactly
[22:10] <Upu> right need to walk the dog
[22:10] <Upu> bbs
[22:11] <eroomde> Laurenceb_: there are more accurate things though
[22:11] <Laurenceb_> nice, good to know those work relatively well
[22:11] <Laurenceb_> so do you thing my idea of a small 20mm stepper is sane?
[22:12] <eroomde> LVDT is the thing you use when it counts, i believe
[22:12] <eroomde> i missed the 20mm stepper bit sorry
[22:12] <eroomde> as the actuator motor?
[22:12] <Laurenceb_> my firgelli
[22:12] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[22:12] <Laurenceb_> remove the crappy dc gearmotor
[22:12] <Laurenceb_> stick a 20mm stepper on the end
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[22:12] <eroomde> well, you won;t have the ame power desnity as a dc servo motor
[22:12] <eroomde> but if that's not a biggy
[22:13] <eroomde> and the feedback isn;t critical
[22:13] <eroomde> or would you have feedback too?
[22:13] <Laurenceb_> yeah - i have pressure feedback
[22:13] <eroomde> ah right
[22:13] <eroomde> ok
[22:13] <eroomde> yeah that could work i guess
[22:13] <Laurenceb_> id still have the pot to read
[22:13] <Laurenceb_> but id only read it occasionally to calibrate
[22:13] <eroomde> but they're definitely not as fast or torquy as dc servo motors
[22:14] <Laurenceb_> it looks good enough for what i need.. just doing the numbers
[22:14] <Laurenceb_> ~1mm per turn of the screw
[22:14] <Laurenceb_> so i need >3000rpm
[22:15] <eroomde> fast switchinh!
[22:15] <Laurenceb_> looks doable with quite a few motors
[22:15] <Laurenceb_> dunno about the off the shelf drive ics
[22:16] <Laurenceb_> ~10khz drive
[22:17] <Laurenceb_> i dont understand "pull out" and "push in"
[22:17] <Laurenceb_> http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/61957.pdf
[22:19] <eroomde> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepper_motor#Pull-out_torque
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[22:21] <Laurenceb_> i dont really follow
[22:21] <Laurenceb_> i understand pull out
[22:21] <Laurenceb_> what is pull in?
[22:22] <eroomde> scroll up
[22:22] <Laurenceb_> something to do with accelerating it up to speed
[22:22] <Laurenceb_> ok i saw that
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[22:22] <Laurenceb_> " operated without an acceleration state" ?!
[22:22] <Laurenceb_> angular rate is constant with time?
[22:23] <eroomde> guess so
[22:24] <Laurenceb_> "The stepper motor pull-out torque is measured by accelerating the motor to the desired speed"
[22:24] <Laurenceb_> so wtf is the difference
[22:25] <eroomde> dunno
[22:25] <Laurenceb_> oh wait
[22:25] <Laurenceb_> i might understand
[22:25] <Laurenceb_> say the motor is not turning
[22:26] <Laurenceb_> suddely i whack it with lets say 10k steps/sec
[22:26] <Laurenceb_> will it accelerate ok?
[22:26] <eroomde> i'm not sure, i don't know how you best use stepper motors
[22:26] <Laurenceb_> if i plot the torque thats required to stop it perfectly syncing up to speed versus the step rate i whack it with
[22:26] <eroomde> if you have to maintain some small lead angle
[22:26] <Laurenceb_> thats pull in torque?
[22:26] <eroomde> or if you can just whack up the rate you want and wait for the rotor to catch up
[22:27] <Laurenceb_> pull out is pretty obvious if thats what pull in is
[22:27] <Laurenceb_> aiui best practice is to slew rate
[22:27] <Laurenceb_> but thats not always done
[22:27] <Laurenceb_> i think pull in is how well it accomodates step changes in rate
[22:28] <Laurenceb_> but with a freaking f4discovery hooked up i think i can handle slewing :P
[22:30] <Laurenceb_> well ill have a play tomorrow and maybe order some steppers
[22:30] <Laurenceb_> thanks for the help
[22:32] <Dan-K2VOL> eroomde it does look like the LEA offers up to 10 MHZ timepulse output http://www.u-blox.com/images/downloads/Product_Docs/Timing_AppNote_%28GPS.G6-X-11007%29.pdf
[22:32] <Dan-K2VOL> Since the RFM22 offers a 10MHz output clock too, we should be able to sync them right?
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[22:33] <Dan-K2VOL> (using a txvco)
[22:33] <SpeedEvil> pull out torque is the torque it can do without missing a step Laurenceb
[22:33] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[22:33] <Laurenceb_> but whats pull in?
[22:34] <SpeedEvil> slow down
[22:34] <Laurenceb_> oh
[22:34] <mattbrejza> you should be able to have a phase comparer between the gps and the rfm output, filter and feed to a varactor on the rfms crystal Dan-K2VOL ?
[22:34] <SpeedEvil> mattbrejza: in principle, sure
[22:34] <Laurenceb_> ... why is it different?
[22:34] <SpeedEvil> making it cheap, light, small, ...
[22:34] <Laurenceb_> <- very confused now
[22:34] <mattbrejza> yay theory
[22:34] <Dan-K2VOL> yeah that's what I'm thinking
[22:35] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: pull out is from zero speed
[22:35] <Dan-K2VOL> I've found txvcos that fit on the RFM22
[22:35] <mattbrejza> is the ublox output guaranteed stable enough for a start?
[22:35] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: IIRC at least
[22:35] <eroomde> no
[22:35] <Dan-K2VOL> not directly
[22:35] <eroomde> the pps outputs have a lot of rising edge jitter
[22:35] <eroomde> you'll get your number of pulses each s
[22:36] <mattbrejza> Dan-K2VOL: you can use a varactor (i say this as they work nice for me)
[22:36] <eroomde> but with some rising edge noise
[22:36] <Dan-K2VOL> the jitter occurs they say when you're not using a good divisor of 48
[22:36] Action: Laurenceb_ unconvinced
[22:36] <Laurenceb_> but maybe im just too thick
[22:36] <Dan-K2VOL> and above 1MHz they say you need to make sure the lines are 50©
[22:36] <SpeedEvil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghDXBIy_BSM&feature=youtube_gdata_player
[22:36] <SpeedEvil> sigh
[22:36] <SpeedEvil> fpv quad in central London
[22:37] <Dan-K2VOL> see page 9 of http://www.u-blox.com/images/downloads/Product_Docs/Timing_AppNote_%28GPS.G6-X-11007%29.pdf for jitter info
[22:37] <SpeedEvil> thumbed up/down apporopriate comments, for all the good it'll do.
[22:37] <Dan-K2VOL> they recommend an external pll
[22:37] <mattbrejza> PLL design as far as loop filter goes is a well known bit of theory
[22:38] <mattbrejza> which i did and kinda sorta not remember very well
[22:38] <Randomskk> all I remember about it is pages and pages of rubbish maths
[22:38] <Randomskk> and then you're like "so... it locks"
[22:38] <mattbrejza> it wasnt too bad, just have to be careful the phase margin is taken care
[22:38] <mattbrejza> of
[22:38] <mattbrejza> lots of 'well a few orders of magnitude will do'
[22:38] <mattbrejza> and about 30kHz of BW
[22:39] <mattbrejza> just because
[22:39] Nick change: MLow -> MLow-werk
[22:39] <Dan-K2VOL> ugh I hate analog stuff
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[22:40] <nigelvh> When it comes down to it the world is analog
[22:40] <nigelvh> But I agree it can be a pain.
[22:41] <mattbrejza> just be lazy and use a AD9547 as suggested
[22:41] <Dan-K2VOL> yeah I'm looking at that, but it wants ANOTHER crystal
[22:41] <Dan-K2VOL> everywhere I turn things want to eat the power budget
[22:42] <nigelvh> Delicious electrons
[22:42] <mattbrejza> well that crystal could be instead of the one that used to be on the rfm
[22:42] <mattbrejza> if you can get the ad PLL to give you 27MHz
[22:42] <Laurenceb_> SpeedEvil: you think too dangerous? or just bad publicity?
[22:43] <Dan-K2VOL> ahhh I see, you just output the signal direct to the RFM
[22:43] <Dan-K2VOL> that's better
[22:43] <Dan-K2VOL> use a little bit of coax maybe
[22:43] <mattbrejza> or just 50ohm microstrip?
[22:43] <Laurenceb_> teamblacksheep got banned from rcgroups :D
[22:43] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: prone to inspiring knee jerk legislation in the event of accident.
[22:43] <Laurenceb_> yeah i guess
[22:43] <mattbrejza> the input of the rfm isnt anything in particular anyway?
[22:44] <Laurenceb_> banned in epic dramaz flamewarz style :P
[22:44] <mattbrejza> is thegps output 50ohm?
[22:44] <Dan-K2VOL> it's 30MHz
[22:44] <Laurenceb_> i think the rcgroups flamewarz still continue
[22:44] <Dan-K2VOL> yeah
[22:44] Action: SpeedEvil notes the rfm is a frequency modulated module.
[22:44] <Dan-K2VOL> there's no breakout pad for the crystal, so there'll have to be a wire
[22:44] <SpeedEvil> oh, someone said that
[22:45] <Dan-K2VOL> yes, I know, but it drifts so fast that I don't think you can issue commands that fast and keep outputting data in sync
[22:45] <mattbrejza> you might want to solder a 50ohm resistor o the clock in pin then
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[22:49] <Dan-K2VOL> damnit why don't these wireless module manufacturers just put a freakin interface on there to do this for us
[22:49] <Dan-K2VOL> ah right, there's only about 100 people in the world who are going to rely on a $20 wireless module at 60C
[22:49] <Randomskk> and they're all in here? :P
[22:51] <mattbrejza> lazy way is to read the tempeature and compensate for the drift
[22:51] <Dan-K2VOL> lol they are actually
[22:51] <mattbrejza> wont perform as well as gps sync though
[22:51] <Dan-K2VOL> and there's 13 lurkers
[22:52] <Dan-K2VOL> that's what the TXCOs do automatically
[22:52] <Dan-K2VOL> TCXOs
[22:52] <Dan-K2VOL> but I don't think they correct well for short term drift
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[22:56] <mattbrejza> any reason for wanting such good accuracy?
[22:58] <Dan-K2VOL> yes I need to shut the carrier off between transmissions and not waste 10 seconds of battery power for the thing to stabilize :-)
[22:59] <Dan-K2VOL> all about saving power
[22:59] <Dan-K2VOL> which is about saving weight
[22:59] <mattbrejza> save data for 10 mins, spend 1 min transmitting it all?
[22:59] <Dan-K2VOL> and if you can make your clock self correcting, then you can throw away your insulation around the circuit, saving more weight
[23:00] <Dan-K2VOL> no need to have that much telemetry
[23:00] <Dan-K2VOL> this is for long duration solar powered flight
[23:00] <Dan-K2VOL> transmit one point per 10 minutes, everything sleeps at less than 1ma the rest of the time
[23:00] <Dan-K2VOL> ideally
[23:00] <mattbrejza> well it doesnt take fldigi that long to lock onto a signal, bt it will require someone to be paying attention
[23:01] <Dan-K2VOL> yeah that's what it can't have
[23:01] <Randomskk> if only the decoder could find the signal automatically
[23:01] <Randomskk> hi there mattbrejza
[23:01] <SpeedEvil> solar day only is easy
[23:01] <mattbrejza> lol
[23:01] <mattbrejza> wont help if the payload has gone out of radio tuned range
[23:01] <SpeedEvil> no power constraints
[23:01] <Randomskk> just run your code against 1MHz bandwidth from the SDR
[23:02] <SpeedEvil> well, few
[23:02] <Dan-K2VOL> right, but it's night I'm designing for
[23:02] <mattbrejza> Randomskk: in good time
[23:02] <SpeedEvil> nighttime solar needs bigger panels
[23:02] <SpeedEvil> pointed to arcturus.
[23:02] <Dan-K2VOL> the UHF is for line-of-sight, and it will switch to iridium when over the horizon
[23:02] <mattbrejza> how large a panel would you needto work off moonlight?
[23:03] <Dan-K2VOL> there's simply not enough photons for that to work
[23:03] <Dan-K2VOL> you might get it with huge mirrors
[23:03] <SpeedEvil> mattbrejza: in practice, it doesn't, due to leakage in the diode, and the diode law
[23:03] <mattbrejza> yea i was trying to think back to solar cell theory
[23:03] <Dan-K2VOL> the diode police don't joke around either
[23:04] <mattbrejza> it wasnt a sensible solution to your problem tbh
[23:04] <fsphil> I measured almost nothing out of my solar array with a full moon
[23:04] <Dan-K2VOL> what's that?
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[23:04] <mattbrejza> large panel
[23:04] <Dan-K2VOL> yeah
[23:04] <SpeedEvil> moonlight is of the order of a millionth the intensity
[23:04] <Dan-K2VOL> the more I can reduce power consumption, the lighter the panel and batt can be
[23:04] <Dan-K2VOL> but with giant lazer beams!
[23:05] <SpeedEvil> the voltage drops by 60mv/decade or so of current
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[23:05] <SpeedEvil> so 6 decades, and you're at around 300mv/cell.
[23:05] <mattbrejza> if you have an external oscillator (so to avoid rfm heating the caps), temperature compensated either by my shitty DIY method or because its a probTCXO
[23:05] <mattbrejza> ...
[23:05] <mattbrejza> proper tcxo
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[23:06] <mattbrejza> the carrier should be at least in the radio BW?
[23:06] <Dan-K2VOL> man websites like Analog devices suck, they just give you a big list of part numbers and don't tell you anything about the features until you open each page
[23:06] <SpeedEvil> in practice, it's not that good
[23:06] <SpeedEvil> Dan-K2VOL: anal parameter
[23:06] <Dan-K2VOL> lol
[23:06] <SpeedEvil> analogs parametric search is generally OK
[23:07] <Dan-K2VOL> except their parameters are useless information to my current search
[23:07] <mattbrejza> unless you want something special
[23:07] <Dan-K2VOL> when most of the products have exactly the same info in every column, you're using the wrong parameters to display
[23:07] <mattbrejza> the other method is to use a wide bandwidth reciever and find the rtty signal in software
[23:08] <Dan-K2VOL> it may matt
[23:08] <Dan-K2VOL> I suppose I should just try before getting too complicated.
[23:08] <mattbrejza> at least you dont comprimise your design
[23:09] <Dan-K2VOL> I was curious about how much the thermal drift comes from the rfm TX heating the crystal vs. the crystal's internal heating
[23:11] <mattbrejza> well whenver you first turn a payload on whatever it is, it takes a while to stabilise - you may have to leave the crystal on for a bit before tx to avoid that
[23:11] <mattbrejza> and you can always use a radio that doesnt heat its caps
[23:11] <Randomskk> ugh. has anyone implemented 2d diffusion on a discrete time/space grid?
[23:12] <Randomskk> I feel like this should be more simple
[23:12] <Randomskk> anyone here, I mean.
[23:12] <SpeedEvil> in awk
[23:12] <SpeedEvil> a bit ago
[23:12] <SpeedEvil> I forgot most of it though
[23:12] <Randomskk> in awk, wow
[23:12] <SpeedEvil> need to find and dust off
[23:12] <Dan-K2VOL> what did you think of the CC430 matt?
[23:12] <Randomskk> any reason why awk?
[23:12] <Randomskk> I mean that doesnt' strike me as the first language that would come to mind
[23:13] <SpeedEvil> I needed a 100*100 mesh, and about a thousand steps
[23:13] <Randomskk> seems fairly tractable
[23:13] <SpeedEvil> benchmarks said it'd complete in four seconds
[23:13] <SpeedEvil> and it was easy
[23:13] <SpeedEvil> just thermal though
[23:13] <mattbrejza> cc430 seems perfectly fine, can only assume extra drifting was due to small crystal close to the radio
[23:13] <Randomskk> thermal diffusion is pretty like any other diffusion
[23:14] <Randomskk> I have mass diffusion I suppose
[23:14] <mattbrejza> its a bit of a pain to work with if you read the datasheet, so just use TIs code
[23:14] <Dan-K2VOL> heh
[23:14] <Randomskk> but I mean, isn't awk like... a text file processing language. for words. ?
[23:14] <SpeedEvil> nothing really complex, you just work out the formulae to go from a step to the next for one cell.
[23:15] <SpeedEvil> yes
[23:15] <Dan-K2VOL> how was it for having to make final matching circuitry?
[23:15] <SpeedEvil> but meh.
[23:16] <mattbrejza> copy the datasheet
[23:16] <mattbrejza> however...
[23:17] <mattbrejza> http://uk.farnell.com/johanson-technology/0433bm15a0001e/balun-433mhz-impedance-matched/dp/2148531
[23:17] <SpeedEvil> Randomskk: pnmtoascii
[23:17] <mattbrejza> lazy way
[23:17] <SpeedEvil> Randomskk: picture to words
[23:17] <Randomskk> SpeedEvil: oh god, wow.
[23:17] <Randomskk> fair enough
[23:17] Nick change: heathkid|2 -> heathkid
[23:18] <SpeedEvil> input was rgb with temp, heat capacity, and thermal conductivity
[23:20] <Randomskk> hm
[23:20] <Randomskk> what did you do, iterate over each cell and just work out a discretised version of the PDEs with forward/central differences?
[23:20] <SpeedEvil> basically really dumb
[23:21] <Randomskk> I was wondering if I could just convolve a grid of concentrations with a gaussian kernel
[23:21] <Randomskk> since it's seperable I could do it in O(N) instead of O(N²)
[23:21] <SpeedEvil> assume it's point masses connected with rods of varying conductivity and zero heat capacity
[23:21] <Randomskk> oh god what
[23:21] <Randomskk> that seems like a weird way to do it
[23:21] <Randomskk> rather than just discretising the diffusion PDEs
[23:22] <SpeedEvil> the 'I can't do maths' sort of mathematical model
[23:23] <Randomskk> though given I plan to run this on OpenCL I'm not sure that seperating it into two 1d convolutions saves me much
[23:23] <Randomskk> I guess it's still less computation
[23:23] <Randomskk> and my GPU doesn't have a compute unit for every single grid square
[23:23] <SpeedEvil> I can however sum nine numbers for heat loss to the adjacent nodes.
[23:23] <Randomskk> so it has to queue them up sometime
[23:23] <SpeedEvil> :-)
[23:23] <Randomskk> hmm yes I suppose so
[23:23] <SpeedEvil> what're you doing.
[23:23] <Randomskk> that is a neat way to imagine discretising it
[23:23] <Randomskk> I'm modelling diffusion of a chemical signalling agent on some growth medium
[23:24] <Randomskk> so that my modelled bacterial cells can see the concentration in their immediate vicinity and respond accordingly
[23:24] <Randomskk> producing new signalling agents
[23:24] <SpeedEvil> ah gar.
[23:24] <SpeedEvil> to get back to the bad food puns.
[23:24] <Randomskk> don't you start now
[23:24] <SpeedEvil> 2d or 3d?
[23:25] <Randomskk> 2d
[23:25] <Laurenceb_> ive done thermal diffusion in octave
[23:25] <Randomskk> how did you do it?
[23:25] <Laurenceb_> in 2d cylindrical coordinates
[23:25] <Laurenceb_> using timesteps :P
[23:25] <Randomskk> well I imagine timesteps get involved at some point given we have computers
[23:25] <Randomskk> but what did you do on each timestep >_>
[23:26] <Laurenceb_> solved the equations
[23:26] <Randomskk> kthx
[23:26] <Randomskk> that's what I was missing
[23:26] <Randomskk> I see now
[23:26] <Laurenceb_> lol
[23:26] <Laurenceb_> trollleeddd
[23:26] <Laurenceb_> ok ill find me codezz
[23:26] <Randomskk> :D
[23:27] <Laurenceb_> its more complex in cylindrical
[23:27] <SpeedEvil> for each node, compute the output values from the input values on adjacent nodes using the appropriate equations
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[23:27] <Randomskk> don't you basically end up with just a cylindrical unit which has some sines floating around?
[23:28] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[23:28] <Laurenceb_> just a sec
[23:28] <Laurenceb_> delving in old hard drives
[23:28] <Laurenceb_> on my file server...
[23:29] <Randomskk> any thoughts on the convolution with a gaussian idea?
[23:30] <Laurenceb_> http://pastebin.com/1DKyACtj
[23:30] <Laurenceb_> no
[23:31] <Randomskk> ta
[23:32] <Laurenceb_> thats rather more complex
[23:32] <Randomskk> mm
[23:32] <Laurenceb_> simulates a medical glue on sensor in the presence of blood flow
[23:35] <Laurenceb_> divides it into two rings
[23:36] <Laurenceb_> runge kutta would be worth trying
[23:36] <Laurenceb_> existing code can explode quite easily
[23:37] <Randomskk> it seems like I can just use a gaussian kernel. and seperate it so it just takes O(N) or so
[23:37] <Randomskk> I mean
[23:37] <Randomskk> a gaussian is the solution to the diffusion equation
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[23:38] <Randomskk> just convolve the image at each timestep
[23:38] <Randomskk> but I can't find anyone doing that on the internet
[23:38] <Randomskk> and I can find a lot of people using O(N²) approaches
[23:38] <Randomskk> which conerns me
[23:38] <Randomskk> but it's basically the same problem as blurring an image right
[23:41] <Laurenceb_> hmm
[23:42] <Laurenceb_> so you just use precomputed solutions or something?
[23:42] <Randomskk> well a precomputed guassian kernel
[23:42] <Laurenceb_> yeah my code is O(N²)
[23:42] <Randomskk> which is seperable into two 1d convolutions
[23:42] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[23:42] <Randomskk> and then you just run both of them, two O(N)
[23:42] <Randomskk> the same process as applying a guassian blur to an image
[23:43] <Laurenceb_> what are you trying to do?
[23:43] <Randomskk> model 2d diffusion
[23:43] <Randomskk> specifically of chemical signalling agents in a growth medium
[23:43] <Randomskk> but whatever, it could be heat diffusion for all the difference it makes
[23:43] <Randomskk> the variance/width of the gaussian kernel would then depend on the diffusivity
[23:44] <Laurenceb_> hmm i guess....
[23:44] <Dan-K2VOL> upu you still round?
[23:44] <Laurenceb_> in 2d sheets?
[23:44] <Randomskk> yea
[23:44] <Randomskk> like a petri dish or whatever
[23:45] <Laurenceb_> if you initial state and conditions are simple enough then you can use analytic solutions
[23:45] <Randomskk> like the surface of a petri dish
[23:45] <Randomskk> don't think that'l work
[23:45] <Randomskk> more of these agents will be being produced throughout the simulation
[23:45] <Laurenceb_> oh
[23:45] <Randomskk> so the concentrations are various points will be changing externally too
[23:45] <Laurenceb_> sounds like my problem in some ways
[23:45] <Randomskk> I need the diffusion layer to just diffuse what's present at each time step
[23:45] <Laurenceb_> but my material was non isotropic
[23:46] <Randomskk> which sounds a lot like just doing a gaussian blur
[23:46] <Randomskk> but i'm not sure if it's quite exactly the same thing
[23:46] <Laurenceb_> im really not sure if this will work
[23:46] <Darkside> ahh, non-isotropic mediums
[23:46] <Darkside> fuck you ionosphere
[23:46] <Laurenceb_> lol
[23:47] Action: Darkside is working on phase delay calculation stuff
[23:47] <Darkside> over rays through the ionosphere
[23:47] <Laurenceb_> but its too late to do maths
[23:47] <Laurenceb_> at least that level of stuff
[23:47] <Darkside> to early to do maths here
[23:47] <Laurenceb_> itll give me a headache
[23:47] <Randomskk> yea I should probably go to bed or something but this is bugging me a bit
[23:47] <Darkside> only 10:20am, the coffee hasn't kicked in yet
[23:48] <Laurenceb_> i just needed a few graphs so i just wrote crap code
[23:48] <Laurenceb_> and set the time step to very small
[23:48] <Laurenceb_> so i got fairly good accuracy
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[23:49] <Laurenceb_> but yeah my code is pretty hard to read - converting cylindrical to 2d
[23:49] <Randomskk> matlab/octave is always hard to read
[23:49] <Randomskk> :
[23:49] <Randomskk> :P *
[23:50] <Laurenceb_> true
[23:51] <Laurenceb_> it needs a good coding style
[23:52] <Darkside> ugh
[23:52] <Darkside> my supervisor coded in matlab like he codes in fortran
[23:52] <Darkside> no indentation, very short variable names, and no comments
[23:53] <Randomskk> academics often seem terrible at writing code
[23:53] <Darkside> and no abstraction of code into functions
[23:53] <Randomskk> to be fair, writing functions in matlab/octave is a HUGE faff
[23:53] <Randomskk> separate file for every function! whose genius idea was that
[23:53] <Darkside> yes that is annoying
[23:53] <Darkside> but i still find it easier to just throw away chunks of oft-used code into a function
[23:53] <Darkside> because i don't want my script to be gigantic
[23:53] <Laurenceb_> SpeedEvil: Pull-in Torque
[23:53] <Laurenceb_> The maximum torque at which a step motor can start, stop and
[23:53] <Laurenceb_> reverse the direction of rotation without losing step. The maxi-
[23:53] <Laurenceb_> mum torque at which an energized step motor will start and run
[23:53] <Laurenceb_> in synchronism, without losing steps, at constant speed.
[23:54] <Laurenceb_> so i think thats what i said
[23:54] <Laurenceb_> from stepper motor datasheet
[23:55] <SpeedEvil> sorry, I'm mostly on autopilot today
[23:55] <SpeedEvil> wheelbarrows
[23:55] <Lunar_Lander> evening Darkside
[00:00] --- Fri Nov 16 2012