highaltitude.log.20121031

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[00:11] <m0psi> hi upu, you there?
[00:13] <m0psi> anyone about? I'm looking for the page (on the ukhas wiki) that describes connecting the gps to the arduino (beginners one)
[00:14] <m0psi> it has a photo of the proto board on it
[00:14] <Lunar_Lander> only page I can think of is Upu's wiki
[00:15] <Lunar_Lander> http://ava.upuaut.net/store/wiki/doku.php?id=levelconvertor
[00:15] <navrac2> i think the arduino - ntx2 has the pic of breadboard on it
[00:15] <m0psi> that's the very one
[00:15] <m0psi> thanks Lunar_Lander
[00:15] <navrac2> or of course that one :-)
[00:16] <m0psi> i think you're right navrac2
[00:17] <Lunar_Lander> you're welcome M0NSA
[00:17] <Lunar_Lander> sorry
[00:17] <m0psi> on this page, what is the point of the um232 board? is it just for serial stuff? can't I just use the arduino serial monitor for that?
[00:17] <Lunar_Lander> m0psi,
[00:17] <Lunar_Lander> do you have an Uno or so?
[00:17] <m0psi> too many m0's :-)
[00:17] <m0psi> Freeduino v1.16
[00:17] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[00:17] <m0psi> should be the same as the uno
[00:17] <Lunar_Lander> it only has one UART
[00:18] <m0psi> i don't follow
[00:18] <Lunar_Lander> on a mega you could like plug the GPS into UART 1, because UART 0 does the communication with the PC, i.e. the serial monitor
[00:18] <m0psi> oh
[00:18] <Lunar_Lander> if you connect the GPS to the Serial pins as in the tutorial, you can't use the USB and Serial.print things to read the data
[00:19] <Lunar_Lander> thus that extra board is needed
[00:19] <m0psi> so the arduino can only do one serial comm, and this is on pin 0 (rx)?
[00:19] <Lunar_Lander> yes, pin 0 and 1
[00:20] <m0psi> ok, so if i use the usb and the serial monitor on the devUI, i'll be ok. right?
[00:20] <m0psi> all i want to do is to be sure i can talk to it from the arduino
[00:20] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[00:20] <Lunar_Lander> wait
[00:20] <Lunar_Lander> you connect the GPS to the freeduino and the latter one to the PC via USB
[00:21] <m0psi> right
[00:21] <Lunar_Lander> that won't work as the USB is also connected to the UART
[00:21] <m0psi> oh, so the usb _is_ the uart ?
[00:23] <m0psi> i just need to follow the 'software serial' part of the tutorial
[00:24] <m0psi> no!
[00:24] <m0psi> yes
[00:24] <m0psi> i'm getting knickers in twist
[00:24] <m0psi> reset!
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[00:24] <m0psi> "Example using software serial"
[00:25] <m0psi> that only needs the arduino, and max6 breakout board
[00:25] <m0psi> which i have
[00:25] <m0psi> so, all good
[00:25] <m0psi> i even have 4 wires! :-)
[00:29] <Lunar_Lander> m0psi, yea the USB is also connected to UART 0
[00:30] <Lunar_Lander> i.e. the USB as well as pins 0 and 1 are connected to the serial pins of the atmega328
[00:30] <Lunar_Lander> (that isn't really true, the USB is connected to the atmega chip behind the USB port and that connects to the UART)
[00:30] <Lunar_Lander> and UART is just a abbreviation for a serial port
[00:32] <hyte> hey, where a good place to get components, breadboard, capacitors, headers etc?
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[00:35] <natrium42> hyte: where are you located?
[00:35] <hyte> uk, london
[00:36] <natrium42> RS components
[00:37] <hyte> been a wile since i ordered, whats delivery like for them now?
[00:38] <m0psi> i ordered these stripboards yesterday
[00:38] <m0psi> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5x-100-x-160mm-Stripboard-Sim-Vero-Strip-Board-/360500893584?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item53ef871790
[00:38] <m0psi> they seem to be a good deal
[00:39] <m0psi> i use farnell, although much of a muchness with rs-components
[00:39] <natrium42> hyte: next day
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[00:51] <m0psi> got a strange error on the code
[00:51] <m0psi> gps__level_converter_board_test:15: error: redefinition of 'byte gps_set_sucess'
[00:51] <m0psi> using the code on this page: http://ava.upuaut.net/store/wiki/doku.php?id=levelconvertor
[00:52] <m0psi> i removed the ' =0 '
[00:52] <Lunar_Lander> why did you do that?
[00:52] <m0psi> in case it did not like setting the value up top
[00:52] <m0psi> still got the same error
[00:53] <Lunar_Lander> ah at the top that =0
[00:53] <Lunar_Lander> that means initialization
[00:53] <m0psi> y
[00:53] <Lunar_Lander> so like it sets the value to 0 when the program starts
[00:53] <Lunar_Lander> and when the program runs, the appropiate value replaces it
[00:54] <m0psi> sure, but it don't like it :-)
[00:54] <m0psi> it thinks i'm redifining it
[00:54] <Lunar_Lander> hm if you have the = 0 at the top, it shouldn't say "redefinition"
[00:54] <Lunar_Lander> wait
[00:54] <Lunar_Lander> yea try that
[00:55] <m0psi> that's why i'm puzzled
[00:55] <m0psi> with or without the 0, still the same error
[00:57] <m0psi> oh
[00:57] <m0psi> i think i have found the problem
[01:01] <m0psi> bloody ui
[01:01] <m0psi> while trying to save the sketch, it opened another tab
[01:01] <m0psi> i thought it was just like a multi-tab thing
[01:01] <m0psi> but, no
[01:01] <m0psi> it was running BOTH sketches
[01:01] <m0psi> hence the 'redefine'
[01:02] <m0psi> anyway, compiled now
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[01:03] <m0psi> seems to be ok
[01:03] <m0psi> but i'm indoors
[01:03] <m0psi> so, not much a gps signal here!
[01:04] <DanielRichman> initialisation of global variables is fine, and if ommitted, is implicitly zero (or the default constructor if it's an object)
[01:04] <DanielRichman> though it's very importnat to note that 'implicitly zero' is _only_ true for global variables
[01:04] <DanielRichman> stuff inside functions must be initialised or you're gonna have trouble
[01:05] <m0psi> y, but i didn't realise that the multiple tabs is essentially ALL loaded into the compiler, as opposed to seperate sketches. lesson learned.
[01:05] <DanielRichman> I know, was just noting :-)
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[01:07] <m0psi> hmm, so if a global variable, it is 0 on initialisation. otherwise, it is set to what?
[01:08] <DanielRichman> variables declared inside the bodies of functions are on the 'stack'. When the function runs, some space is made for them, and the compiler knows where they are if it wants to get or set them
[01:08] <DanielRichman> but it doesn't initalise them unless you ask it to
[01:08] <Darkside> DanielRichman: go to bed
[01:08] <DanielRichman> so they have whatever random value happened to be in there before
[01:08] <DanielRichman> Darkside: I am in bed
[01:08] <Darkside> hahaha
[01:08] <Darkside> :D
[01:08] <m0psi> blimy! i just realised the time
[01:08] <DanielRichman> yeah ikr
[01:09] <DanielRichman> who needs sleep
[01:09] <DanielRichman> hmm. I think I do
[01:09] <DanielRichman> oh and m0psi it's pretty much the same deal for memory returned by malloc
[01:09] <DanielRichman> makes space for it but doesn't set it to anything, etc.
[01:09] <m0psi> anyone know what upu means by 'ucenter'?
[01:09] <DanielRichman> the compiler should warn you if you try to use something you haven't initalised... I don't know what settings the arduino stuff turns on but if you can you want to have all the warnings enabled
[01:09] <m0psi> "From here I would disconnect the Arduino serial monitor and open uCenter, select the relevant serial port and watch as it locates satellites etc."
[01:10] <DanielRichman> uCenter is some software
[01:10] <DanielRichman> made by ublox
[01:10] <DanielRichman> for their gps
[01:10] <m0psi> oh
[01:10] <DanielRichman> Darkside: goodnight
[01:10] <Darkside> :P
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[09:35] <costyn> morning
[09:35] <costyn> Upu: got your GPS back, thanks!
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[11:21] <navracWork> ping upuwork
[11:22] <UpuWork> hola
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[12:19] <dannywill> Hello, I logged on yesterday afternoon briefly. But had to rush off. Is anybody there from yesterday?
[12:20] <daveake> yep
[12:21] <dannywill> well hello there Dave. As you know I am somewhat of a newbie. How about yourself?
[12:21] <jonsowman> hello
[12:22] <dannywill> hello Jason
[12:22] <daveake> I've done a couple of flights :)
[12:22] <jonsowman> nearly...
[12:23] <fsphil> also can't count
[12:23] <daveake> I told you about my maths ...
[12:23] <fsphil> this is true
[12:23] <daveake> I do lie consistently :)
[12:24] <fsphil> how do we know that wasn't a lie?
[12:24] <dannywill> From what I have read by far the most popular way of tracking is radio. What is the general opinion on using GSM and GPS?
[12:25] <daveake> A possibly useful backup
[12:25] <Darkside> unreliable above a few km
[12:25] <Darkside> due to the radiation pattern of the mobile base station antennas
[12:25] <daveake> unreliable below a few km
[12:25] <Darkside> :P
[12:25] <Darkside> in general: unreliable
[12:26] <Darkside> don't use it as a primary
[12:26] <dannywill> so generally unreliable, huh?
[12:26] <Darkside> it might help if it lands somewhere with good phone signal
[12:26] <daveake> Really, the radio side is very reliable so long as the tracker is well tested
[12:26] <Darkside> and you get a landing location
[12:26] <Darkside> GSM is not really useful during flight though
[12:27] <Darkside> the benefit of the radio method is you get data at a fast update rate, all throughout the flight
[12:28] <daveake> Indeed ... so you know where the payload is, and as the flight goes on you get a better idea of where it'll land
[12:28] <Darkside> the fast update rate means you have information about the motion of the payload, so if you lose signal at a few hundred metres altitude ont he descent, you have a pretty good idea of where it's landed
[12:28] <daveake> I've seen to flights come in to land, and I think Darkside has seen lots more than that, because of the radio system
[12:29] <daveake> two
[12:29] <Darkside> that and live flight predictions
[12:29] <daveake> yup
[12:29] <Darkside> which is the killer thing to have
[12:29] <dannywill> OK, I was considering using one of these: www.xexun.com/ProductDetail.aspx?id=102 but I do realise it's kind of a game of chance with regards to retrieval.
[12:30] <Darkside> broken link
[12:30] <daveake> "Service Unavailable"
[12:31] <daveake> You can get GSM/GPS tracker things. They're sold so you can strap them to wandering cats and grannies
[12:31] <daveake> They're a useful backup, but *don't* rely on them
[12:31] <Darkside> the GPS models in them will likely not work above 18km altitude, so even if you could get data back via GSM, it wouldn't have lock
[12:31] <Darkside> once it lands, it may help
[12:31] <Darkside> but yeah, don't use it as a primary
[12:32] <daveake> Or, you can get a GSM module, or old phone, and link to your flight computer.
[12:32] <daveake> But whatever you do, the radio system should be your primary tracking method
[12:32] <Darkside> +1
[12:33] <dannywill> Now this may be a silly thing to say but: I was thinking maybe I don't need a flight computer? I was hoping to use off-the-shelf parts?
[12:33] <Darkside> you'll need to build something
[12:33] <daveake> yes that's a silly thing to say :)
[12:33] <Darkside> dannywill: what country are you in?
[12:33] <dannywill> UK
[12:33] <Darkside> right
[12:33] <daveake> You can make a tracker from "off the shelf" components ... Arduino, GPS receiver, radio transmitter. Some soldering but not much
[12:33] <Darkside> so you don't even have the optiion of buying an APRS tracker
[12:34] <Darkside> you have to build something, you have no real option
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[12:34] <dannywill> OK so making a tracker...I shall look into this! Any suggestions of where to start?
[12:35] <Darkside> ukhas.org.uk
[12:35] <jonsowman> you said you'd read the wiki
[12:35] <Darkside> the wiki
[12:35] <Darkside> its all on there
[12:35] <dannywill> brb
[12:35] <daveake> One I built - http://www.daveakerman.com/?p=310
[12:36] <daveake> and see http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=common/home for the parts
[12:36] <Darkside> a slightly more professional looking tracker: http://rfhead.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/DSC_5655.jpg
[12:36] <daveake> <splutter>
[12:37] <Darkside> if it wasn't for the black texta and wonky GPS antennas
[12:37] <jonsowman> lol
[12:37] <daveake> and wonky ntx2
[12:37] <Darkside> yep
[12:37] <jonsowman> and sharpie
[12:37] <dannywill> I have read the wiki, but obviously not well enough *how embarrassing*
[12:37] <Darkside> still doesn't look too bad :P
[12:37] <jonsowman> haha
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[12:37] <dannywill> And thanks a lot for the info daveake
[12:38] <Darkside> hey, it looks better than the APRS payloads: http://rfhead.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/aprs_payloads.jpg
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[12:38] <Darkside> talk about a hack.. they even have rework wire
[12:38] <jonsowman> bit of greenwire never hurt anyway
[12:38] <daveake> I dumped that tracker in the North Sea last week. I hope that makes you happy :D
[12:39] <dannywill> I need to go again now, I only get a few minutes a day away from the desk :( Bye.
[12:39] <Darkside> daveake: baha
[12:39] <Darkside> why did you ditch it?
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[12:39] <Darkside> is this the one that was giving dodgy position repotts?
[12:39] <Darkside> reports*
[12:39] <daveake> pico flight ... that's just where it happened to go
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[12:40] <daveake> No, it's the one that stopped altogether during the Buzz6 flight, then started up and got the alt record, only for Steve's to do the same (stopped then started) and beat mine
[12:40] <jonsowman> conspiracy
[12:40] <daveake> It didn't like the cold ... it stopped on the way down then restarted
[12:40] <daveake> :)
[12:41] <daveake> I think mine never actually stopped, but the rfm22 jumped in frequency
[12:41] <daveake> Steve's did stop transmitting, because when it started up it reported the max altitude it had stored during the "off" time
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[12:44] <daveake> anyhoo, as a known-dodgy tracker, I had to get rid of it.
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[12:50] <costyn> daveake: no idea what caused the problems? Was it a chinaduino?
[12:50] <daveake> real one
[12:52] <costyn> and I think you guys scared dannywill by showing him your nicest smallest trackers. Most people's first trackers aren't that nice
[12:52] <costyn> :)
[12:52] <daveake> :)
[12:53] <fsphil> mine still aren't that nice
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[12:54] <daveake> Perhaps I should have shown him this one http://www.daveakerman.com/?attachment_id=122 :D
[12:54] <daveake> I should add that this was before the wires were all neatly routed :)
[12:55] <jonsowman> aw, poor lassens
[12:55] <jonsowman> I still have one
[12:55] <Darkside> and a GPS jammer special!
[12:55] <daveake> I bought a job lot ... I have many!
[12:56] <daveake> Not a very good jammer, fortunately :)
[12:56] <daveake> Not a very good camera either
[12:56] <jonsowman> ha
[12:56] <costyn> daveake: yes, that's more representative of first trackers. how mine looked :)
[12:56] <costyn> heh
[12:57] <daveake> You don't want to see my first one!
[12:57] <Darkside> heh, my first one (my HF one) Was pretty horiffic
[12:57] <Darkside> http://projecthorus.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/DSC_2115.jpg
[12:57] <Darkside> liberal use of duct tape
[12:58] <Darkside> i also used an xmega, as it seemed like a good idea at the time
[12:59] <costyn> Darkside: at least with all the ducttape there's less jumble of wires :)
[13:00] <Darkside> hehe
[13:00] <Darkside> it was still incredibly dodgy
[13:00] <Darkside> it did work the entire flight, so it can't have been all bad
[13:01] <Darkside> well, it worked until it landed in the water, and saltwater got in
[13:01] <daveake> My first one was a bird's nest of wiring. It did work for the entire flight, if yo define that as "up to the point it hit the ground at 25mph"
[13:01] <Darkside> http://projecthorus.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/DSC_2173.jpg
[13:01] <Darkside> ahh, memories
[13:01] <daveake> At which point the processor rebooted. It did then send the position though, so saved.
[13:02] <daveake> hah :)
[13:02] <costyn> daveake: heheh :)
[13:03] <costyn> mine: http://imgur.com/a/PrsuH#4 which doesn't look so bad considering there were some wires which were way too long
[13:05] <daveake> Nice big hook there :)
[13:05] <costyn> daveake: where the parachute is hanging from?
[13:05] <daveake> Yes
[13:05] <costyn> daveake: it's for the swing of the (small) kids
[13:06] <daveake> ah :)
[13:06] <daveake> Reminds me I want to buy a fold-up table tomorrow ... something to work on at the launch site
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[13:09] <costyn> what kind of work do you want to do on it?
[13:10] <daveake> Final assembly of the payload
[13:10] <number10> need to drill a hole in it for antenna?
[13:10] <daveake> Also somewhere to put a laptop etc
[13:10] <daveake> number10 Exactly :)
[13:11] <number10> I think a table whould be the ideal solution - that tripod I used first time was ok but the rod was too flexible
[13:11] <daveake> Upu and I used his tripod. I have a pic of it falling over :D
[13:12] <number10> :( - one I used was quite substantial - but borrowed from work
[13:15] <costyn> daveake: yea place for the laptop is useful. had someone carry that around for me while doing various things, wasn't ideal hehe
[13:15] <daveake> http://www.daveakerman.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/IMG_3545-1024x768.jpg
[13:16] <griffonbot> Received email: Matt Holmes "Re: [UKHAS] Alinco DJ-X11 + dl-fldigi ?"
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[13:27] <costyn> daveake: :)
[13:34] <UpuWork> reminds me I must get that tripod back
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[13:36] <Dan-K2VOL> afternoon all
[13:36] <fsphil> howdy Dan
[13:36] <Dan-K2VOL> what speed is the usual RTTY you use upuWork?
[13:36] <Dan-K2VOL> hi fsphil
[13:36] <UpuWork> 50
[13:36] <UpuWork> thought I may try 100 next time
[13:36] <daveake> weirdo
[13:37] <UpuWork> :)
[13:37] <jonsowman> try 2400
[13:37] <fsphil> I did that once ;)
[13:37] <jonsowman> once being the keyword I imagine
[13:37] <fsphil> indeed -- required a hacked fldigi and stupidly careful tuning
[13:40] <fsphil> obligatory video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6scNiWc4kgo
[13:43] <daveake> This is what I like about HAB .... back-when-I-were-a-lad-living-in-a-shoebox we used to dreeeeam of 2400 baud. And now we still do :)
[13:44] <fsphil> what's old again is new again :)
[13:44] <daveake> Watching 50 baud rtty is a big like working with a teletype again :)
[13:44] <daveake> bit
[13:44] <number10> is that where the saying comes from "its all old HAB"
[13:49] <daveake> OT: now that's a fancy dress costume ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=z5SaIv4qIrU
[13:58] <costyn> fsphil: omg... that's impressive
[13:58] <costyn> fsphil: it's certainly not very relaxing to look at or listen to, not like 50
[13:59] <fsphil> yes, 50 sounds good
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[14:01] <daveake> especially when you're approaching a payload on the ground, and you start to hear the rtty
[14:02] <daveake> Postie has arrived ... balls, eggs, glue, batteries, pink wire ...
[14:02] <number10> looks like you are planning more than one daveake
[14:02] <daveake> I like to have stock :)
[14:03] <number10> lol
[14:03] <Dan-K2VOL> impressive fsphil
[14:03] <Dan-K2VOL> I wonder what range it would have
[14:04] <fsphil> not much I suspect, but it would be a good test
[14:05] <costyn> daveake: and yea, very cool baby robot costume
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[14:06] Nick change: fergusnoble_ -> fergusnoble
[14:06] <Dan-K2VOL> Phil, we need you give us need warp 7 in 5 minutes, can you do it?
[14:08] <daveake> I'm giving her all she's got
[14:08] <daveake> Well, Sunday might work http://habhub.org/predict/#!/uuid=78b667214e27b2df7d4e53966e2c752665bd272e
[14:08] <daveake> No doubt things will change for the worse, again, in the next update
[14:09] <number10> you are trying to land on my house again daveake
[14:09] <daveake> works for me
[14:10] <fsphil> I canny change the laws of physics Dan-K2VOL
[14:10] <number10> the hourly differences look a bit scary though
[14:10] <daveake> The hourly one is scary anyway
[14:10] <daveake> But yes, big changes not good
[14:10] <fsphil> I can give you OS/2 Warp in a few minutes though
[14:10] <daveake> I used to use that
[14:11] <fsphil> I never have actually
[14:11] <fsphil> must see if I can get a copy
[14:11] <daveake> Suspect I binned all mine, but I'll check
[14:12] <Dan-K2VOL> Well, fsphil, if it can't do it under it's own power, maybe we can PUSH it up to 88 mph...
[14:12] Action: fsphil checks the nick list
[14:12] <fsphil> phew
[14:13] <daveake> lol
[14:13] <fsphil> they made some of the deloreans in belfast. titanic too. I see a trend
[14:15] <Dan-K2VOL> heh
[14:16] <fsphil> I guess that's our main export, movie plots.
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[15:30] <navracWork> .
[15:31] <costyn> ,
[15:31] <daveake> '
[15:32] <daveake> Puctuating the silence?
[15:32] <daveake> +n
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[15:43] <navracWork> I was putting a stop to it
[15:43] <Dan-K2VOL> what's the typical reception range for flights using the max power allowed there in the UK?
[15:43] <Randomskk> 700km
[15:44] <Randomskk> :P
[15:44] <Randomskk> well what do you mean "typical"?
[15:44] <navracWork> reading about load balancing network clusters with windows is really hurting my head
[15:44] <Randomskk> it's "until it goes over the horizon"
[15:44] <Dan-K2VOL> what is usually normal for flight tracking
[15:44] <Randomskk> so it depends on how far away someone is and what altitude the payload is
[15:44] <navracWork> yep - that sums it up - if its line of sight and 10mW I can hear it
[15:44] <Dan-K2VOL> is that with an omni-vertical receiver antenna?
[15:45] <navracWork> yep
[15:45] <navracWork> it is for me - i se a watson w50 and a funcube donglwe and a 20db preamp
[15:45] <daveake> similar setup and results here
[15:45] <Dan-K2VOL> interesting, though I've seen some people using yagis?
[15:46] <Randomskk> yea
[15:46] <navracWork> very useful when there is local qrm
[15:46] <Randomskk> the 700km was a yagi
[15:46] <Randomskk> but mostly it's for qrm
[15:46] <Dan-K2VOL> ok
[15:46] <Dan-K2VOL> cool
[15:46] <Randomskk> fsphil got >500km on a vertical omni
[15:46] <navracWork> sometimes i get the yagi out when someone is on a frequency with a local oil level monitor or alarm system
[15:46] <daveake> QRM is low here, so I don't bother with a yagi
[15:47] <daveake> Do get occassional blips but not enough to worry about
[15:47] <daveake> And those are probably my oil sender :D
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[15:48] <SamSilver_> Aerospike nozzles are designed to be altitude compensating and self adjust the expansion ratio making them extremely useful for ground-launched sounding rockets. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DacGl9drefg&feature=related
[15:49] <Dan-K2VOL> heh
[15:49] <Randomskk> that is a nice rocket
[15:50] Nick change: zz_Nabobalis -> Nabobalis
[15:55] <UpuWork> 700km for me was on a Watson Randomskk
[15:55] <Randomskk> oh cool, ok
[15:55] <Randomskk> we got it on the yagi
[15:55] <Randomskk> I think we tracked for longer but you had a greater total distance?
[15:55] <Randomskk> anyway
[15:55] <UpuWork> 756.5km
[15:55] <UpuWork> yeah
[15:55] <UpuWork> Yagi I find means I can start decoding it earlier
[15:55] <UpuWork> but out right range is a factor on altitude of recieving station I think
[15:55] <Randomskk> I'd have thought it should work at the other end too :P
[15:56] <Randomskk> mm seems so
[15:56] <Randomskk> well - yagi might help
[15:56] <Randomskk> cambridge is so low
[15:56] <UpuWork> not had anything out at range and at altitude for a while
[15:56] <UpuWork> hopefully James can get that 1600g floating
[15:56] <Randomskk> cusf're planning a long range float in a month or two
[15:56] <UpuWork> and we can see what range I can really get :)
[15:56] <Randomskk> joey on a 1600
[15:56] <UpuWork> ok cool
[15:56] <UpuWork> parachute this time ? ;)
[15:57] <Randomskk> >_>
[15:57] <Randomskk> no one else gets crap for not putting parachutes on their picos :P
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[15:57] <UpuWork> in fairness I think most people do
[15:57] <UpuWork> just those really small estes ones
[15:57] <Randomskk> with the party foil ones?
[15:57] <Randomskk> hm
[15:57] <daveake> I don't on the foil ones
[15:58] <UpuWork> oh good point
[15:58] <UpuWork> not sure
[15:58] <daveake> Do on anything with latex
[15:58] <Randomskk> james hasn't the times I've seen him launch them
[15:58] <Randomskk> I think this would be less of an issue if it hadn't magically come out of the padded envelope :P
[15:58] <UpuWork> good point actual Randomskk
[15:58] <Randomskk> I mean I wasn't being totally crazy
[15:58] <Randomskk> >_>
[15:58] <UpuWork> changing the subject mildly
[15:58] <daveake> It all went wrong when you told people "It'll come down in a jiffy"
[15:58] <Randomskk> har har
[15:58] <UpuWork> anyone considered putting the GPS in pedestrian mode below 9000 meters ?
[15:59] <daveake> I'm here all week
[15:59] <UpuWork> less deviation on the location
[15:59] <Randomskk> I think I'm adding a pun counting system to zeusbot
[15:59] <daveake> What size int?
[15:59] <UpuWork> lol
[15:59] <UpuWork> I was about to make that joke
[15:59] <daveake> daveake has made -32767 puns
[15:59] <Randomskk> yes that's probably the count I'll give you to start with
[16:00] <daveake> lol
[16:00] <Randomskk> every pun you make subtracts one from your score >_>
[16:00] <daveake> I think I'll go somewhere where I'm appreciated :p
[16:00] <Randomskk> we love them really.
[16:00] <daveake> Anyway, UpuWork - sounds like a good idea
[16:01] <daveake> At the risk of setting that mode too early
[16:01] <UpuWork> well if alt > 6000 go flight mode
[16:01] <Randomskk> and also if you're not getting a lock go flight might ;)
[16:01] <UpuWork> if below 5000 go pedestrial
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[16:01] <Randomskk> mode*
[16:01] <UpuWork> yes
[16:01] <UpuWork> that
[16:01] <daveake> 6000 ... 9001 ... 8999 ... 9002 ...
[16:02] <UpuWork> as it is limited to 30m/s so if you launch without a parachute you may be introuble
[16:02] <UpuWork> :)
[16:02] <Randomskk> 15:58:44 UpuWork> changing the subject mildly
[16:02] <daveake> So, if you didn, no-one would know?
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[16:02] <Randomskk> you also wouldn't get it back safely
[16:02] <daveake> didn't last
[16:02] <Randomskk> whereas we did >_>
[16:09] <costyn> UpuWork: why is there more precision in the pedestrian mode?
[16:09] <UpuWork> less deviation
[16:10] <UpuWork> assumes less movement I guess
[16:10] <UpuWork> if your totally stationary you can switch it into stationary mode
[16:11] <costyn> I guess it uses different models for each mode to calculate your position
[16:14] <Randomskk> or at least different parameters on the same model
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[16:39] <craag> Hmm, I might have to try pedestrian mode for the pico. Sounds well within usual limits. Might help with keeping lock maybe as well.
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[16:45] <dannywill> Hi there, I logged on here earlier today, looking for advice. Anybody there to pick up where we left off?
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[16:54] <daveake> go on
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[17:11] <moumou> hello all, is the AOR AR8000 Scanner a good portable scanner for tracking. I saw dave akerman use it on his blog? I am tracking the 433MHz frequency
[17:12] <SpeedEvil> does it do ssb.
[17:12] <fsphil> craag: sounds like a summer project :)
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[17:14] <moumou> well I think so, been check the specs on: http://www.javiation.co.uk/ar8000.html
[17:14] <moumou> yes well if I have an english winter maybe earlier :)
[17:15] <eroomde> moumou: yes it's fine
[17:15] <eroomde> it is a very good portable scanner for tracking
[17:16] <moumou> thanks
[17:16] <eroomde> as you probably realise, it isn't quite as sensitive as a bigger rig, but i suspect you probably won't notice the difference most of the time
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[17:17] <moumou> well bigger rigs come with a price tag and I am watching ze budget like a german chancellor
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[17:17] <eroomde> yes exactly
[17:17] <eroomde> you'll be fine with the aor8000
[17:18] <eroomde> it's a v good scanner
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[17:18] <daveake> yup
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[18:45] <griffonbot> Received email: Frits PE2G "Re: [UKHAS] Alinco DJ-X11 + dl-fldigi ?"
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[19:24] <KF7FER> so can anyone comment on running an HX1 on a 3.3v system? Can I get away without worrying about any sort of level conversion or translation? I'd assume so, but I thought I'd ask
[19:24] <KF7FER> of course the HX1 will be running at 5v
[19:25] <Upu> run it direct from the batteries
[19:26] <Upu> it has a built in reg
[19:26] <Upu> or does it
[19:26] <Upu> 1 sec
[19:27] <Upu> nope sorry ignore me its the NTX2 that has a reg built in
[19:28] <KF7FER> oh, ok. I was just curious if I needed to add a fet to the PTT line and/or do anything about PWM. I'm trying to folloy Darkside's advice about running the system at 3.3v and adding a boost converter for the HX1 only. That allowed me to drop all the level translation parts but brings up the point do I need to do anything for the HX1
[19:28] <Upu> on your own there I suspect
[19:28] <Upu> pls document when done :)
[19:29] <Upu> actually swift did that
[19:29] <Upu> just fine
[19:29] <KF7FER> heh. Well some time ago I seem to remember someone (not sure if it's the same guy) post on EA5HAV's blog (or something like that) about running the Trackuino stuff at 3.3v, he reported that it worked
[19:30] <Upu> well Swift works
[19:30] <Upu> and that has a separate reg for the HX1 but the logic runs at 3.3
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[19:30] <Upu> https://www.dropbox.com/s/lbpk7mhilz031hz/SwiftV2.pdf
[19:31] <KF7FER> ok, excellent. That's exactly what I'm trying to do. I tried to implement what Darkside suggested (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/8240668/RC3_1030.brd) but there are a few things I'm not sure about.
[19:32] <KF7FER> I feed the 5v boost converter with power from the 3.3v LDO (just to keep the VIN traces short). I'm not sure if this is a good idea or not
[19:32] <KF7FER> and the placement of the boost converter seems to result in a fairly long 5v trace to the HX1. Maybe move the boost converter closer?
[19:33] <Upu> your design decision
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[19:33] <Upu> I'll have a look later need to eat now
[19:33] <KF7FER> no problem. and fair enough. I was just curious if anything I was doing was obviously stupid
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[19:57] <fsphil> Darkside and myself run the HX1 TX line directly from 3.3v
[19:57] <fsphil> but you need to power it from 5v
[19:58] <griffonbot> Received email: Ed Moore "Re: [UKHAS] Alinco DJ-X11 + dl-fldigi ?"
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[20:09] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[20:11] <fsphil> boo!!!
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[20:12] <KF7FER> fsphil: thanks for the confirmation
[20:12] <fsphil> np
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[20:12] <KF7FER> so do you have any comments about powering the boost converter from the LDO vs VIN Raw?
[20:14] Nick change: Laurenceb__ -> Laurenceb
[20:14] <fsphil> boost converter?
[20:14] <KF7FER> well I was going to generate the 5v via a DC/DC boost converter
[20:14] <fsphil> my board powers the hx1 via a 5v vreg
[20:14] <KF7FER> running the rest of the board from the 3.3v LDO
[20:14] <fsphil> that could be noisy, but it would certainly be more efficient
[20:15] <fsphil> I guess with good filtering it would work well
[20:15] <fsphil> I've not had much experience with boost converters
[20:15] <KF7FER> probably beyond the sort seen in the typical applications document?
[20:15] <KF7FER> this is my first time using them as well.
[20:16] <fsphil> what's the power source?
[20:16] <KF7FER> 3-4AA batteries or a single-cell LiPoly
[20:17] <fsphil> 4 fresh AA's can generate more than 5V, which is annoying
[20:19] <fsphil> would be a bit wasteful powering a boost converter from a vreg though
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[20:20] <KF7FER> probably true
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[20:21] <fsphil> brb, custard :)
[20:21] <KF7FER> np
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[20:39] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[20:39] <Lunar_Lander> what's custard btw?
[20:39] <KF7FER> hey LL - not sure, I assume it's a pie? Maybe?
[20:40] <Lunar_Lander> hm
[20:40] <Lunar_Lander> hi KF7FER
[20:40] <Lunar_Lander> guessing from your callsign, you are from the US?
[20:40] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[20:40] <KF7FER> yup. where are you from?
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[20:41] <Lunar_Lander> thanks
[20:41] <Lunar_Lander> KF7FER, germany
[20:42] <KF7FER> so do you use APRS for HAB flights there, or is it rtty like the UK?
[20:43] <Lunar_Lander> I could use APRS but as I am not a ham yet I use RTTY
[20:44] <KF7FER> I'm actually dying to play with rtty but isn't it true you need a radio that does SSB?
[20:44] <KF7FER> all of my equipment is 2m/220/440
[20:45] <eroomde> yeah, you need ssb to receive the rtty in a conventional way
[20:46] <KF7FER> thanks eroomde
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[20:53] <Randomskk> oh my god yes
[20:53] <Randomskk> hallowe'en
[20:53] <Randomskk> I carved a pumpkin
[20:53] <Randomskk> then improvised a candle
[20:53] <Randomskk> it brought all the kids to the door
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[20:54] <Randomskk> the candle was improvised out of a tiny jam jar, vegetable oil and a rolled up j-cloth https://www.dropbox.com/s/yfwdgoq1o600lde/2012-10-31%2019.01.45.jpg
[20:54] <Randomskk> https://www.dropbox.com/s/hevn0qudfqv80o2/2012-10-31%2018.42.00.jpg
[20:55] <eroomde> very beautiful
[20:55] <Upu> nice
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[20:55] <Randomskk> I am so happy.
[20:55] <KF7FER> pretty cool. I was going to make some horrible joke about what you did to the kids when they got to the door but I suppose that's in poor taste
[20:56] <Randomskk> I gave them some candy, wished them a happy halloween and a good evening
[20:56] <Randomskk> kinda standard really
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[20:56] <eroomde> giant latex inflatables etc
[20:56] <eroomde> with a cigar in your mouth
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[20:57] Nick change: Cadair_away -> Cadair
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[20:57] <KF7FER> latex and cigars? Before May? Are you mad?
[20:57] <KF7FER> must be a cultural difference
[20:58] <eroomde> latex -> hab/condom reference
[20:58] <eroomde> cigars
[20:58] <eroomde> well
[20:59] <eroomde> if you dare
[21:01] <number10> nice pumkin dinosuar Randomskk
[21:01] <Randomskk> thank you
[21:01] <Randomskk> our house is "the laser raptor house" because of reasons
[21:01] <daveake> Make one of these. It'll keep the trick or treaters away ... https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/579059_10151122276702654_1380394351_n.jpg
[21:02] <Randomskk> hence also like https://www.dropbox.com/s/4ymdhuj8uskb1tv/2012-10-27%2016.58.23.jpg
[21:02] <Randomskk> but I am most proud of the candle
[21:02] <Randomskk> daveake: hah wow
[21:02] <eroomde> oh jesus
[21:02] <number10> very good Randomskk - I will be round at midnight to have some
[21:03] <Randomskk> :P they are all eaten sadly
[21:03] <Randomskk> (they were great)
[21:03] <Randomskk> (jonsowman can confirm)
[21:03] <number10> :(
[21:03] <number10> he is apig
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[21:03] <Randomskk> it's a good thing we had random sweets around the house too
[21:03] <Randomskk> hadn't really worked out buying some
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[21:09] <eroomde> it's absolutely shitting it down with rain in ox
[21:09] <eroomde> which i think might be surpressing the number of visits
[21:11] <Randomskk> do you have a pumpkin out? :P
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[21:15] <eroomde> also no
[21:15] <Randomskk> there was some light drizzle here
[21:15] <Randomskk> nothing serious enough to put out my oil lamp
[21:16] <eroomde> again with the jimmy saville euphemisms
[21:16] <Randomskk> the whole thing with him is really bad timing for halloween huh
[21:17] <eroomde> uhuh
[21:20] <eroomde> http://uk.eonline.com/resize/600/445/eol_images/Entire_Site/2012931/reg_1024.2meme.ls.103112.jpg
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[21:21] <Randomskk> haha
[21:22] <daveake> hah
[21:23] <Lunar_Lander> hi new people
[21:24] <kopijs> hi
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[21:26] <Lunar_Lander> daveake, duration test is still running :)
[21:26] <Lunar_Lander> I hope
[21:26] <Lunar_Lander> I wasn't allowed to enter my lab due to the possibility that laser radiation might be scattered into it
[21:27] <daveake> er no, I stopped testing earlier
[21:27] <Lunar_Lander> xD no my own test
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[21:27] <daveake> oic
[21:28] <eroomde> what are you testing Lunar_Lander ?
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[21:29] <Lunar_Lander> the complete payload
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[21:30] <eroomde> oh wow
[21:30] <eroomde> so launching soon?
[21:30] <daveake> When will you test onto spacenear?
[21:30] <Lunar_Lander> hopefully yes
[21:31] <daveake> november?
[21:31] <Lunar_Lander> well have to arrange for some internet
[21:31] <eroomde> you have internet here
[21:31] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[21:31] <Lunar_Lander> I think I have to take my payload home then
[21:31] <Lunar_Lander> well, have to see that
[21:31] <Lunar_Lander> DFS wants two weeks from application to NOTAM
[21:31] <Lunar_Lander> so that is a time factor
[21:31] <Lunar_Lander> and insurance is a money factor
[21:32] <Lunar_Lander> but I definately want to fly this year still
[21:32] <eroomde> apply now!
[21:32] <eroomde> let's get the party started
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[21:32] Nick change: dd28_ -> dd28
[21:32] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[21:32] <Lunar_Lander> for spacenear, I have to do a payload document, right?
[21:33] <eroomde> yes
[21:33] <eroomde> Randomskk will walk you through it step by step
[21:33] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[21:33] <Randomskk> I'd be delighted.
[21:33] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[21:33] <Randomskk> it's very easy too
[21:33] <Randomskk> is your telemetry format all finished?
[21:35] <Lunar_Lander> I'd think so, yes
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[21:37] Nick change: MrScienceMan -> RG-lz1dev
[21:37] <Upu> removed all the floating points lunar ?
[21:39] <Lunar_Lander> yea, from the numbers that don't need one
[21:39] <Lunar_Lander> the temperatures still have them, but they have decimal digits
[21:39] <eroomde> no you need a float
[21:39] <eroomde> the average number of visible sats at any point on the earth is 8.4
[21:39] <Lunar_Lander> XD!
[21:40] <Upu> and you need to go through all your code and look at each variable and think do I need it to be that long
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[21:40] <Upu> is that the right data type
[21:40] <Upu> am I even using that variable
[21:40] <eroomde> clang will also tell u that
[21:41] <eroomde> but... can of worms in this context
[21:41] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[21:41] <jonsowman> so will the compiler
[21:41] <jonsowman> -Wall :)
[21:41] <Lunar_Lander> I have a thing though
[21:41] <Lunar_Lander> the last number in the string is battery voltage
[21:41] <Lunar_Lander> and then there is the checksum
[21:42] <eroomde> nice thing
[21:42] <Lunar_Lander> but we built in that the text "cutdown activated" appears between those if that happens
[21:42] <Lunar_Lander> is that OK too?
[21:42] <Randomskk> yup, you can do that.
[21:42] <Randomskk> you'll just need to use two different sentence formats
[21:42] <Randomskk> but that's easy
[21:43] <Lunar_Lander> ah you mean on the ground?
[21:43] <Lunar_Lander> onboard we used a command that adds strings
[21:43] <eroomde> me today trying to get a bunch of stuff to build across different oses without luck
[21:43] <eroomde> http://i.imgur.com/KzbSS.jpg
[21:43] <KF7FER> Lunar_Lander: Maybe this is stupid, but can't you simply use an implied decimal point?
[21:43] <Randomskk> no, on habitat
[21:43] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[21:43] <Lunar_Lander> KF7FER, how do you mean?
[21:43] <KF7FER> well you report the number 632, and that means 6.32 volts
[21:44] <KF7FER> so still integer numbers
[21:44] <daveake> you can
[21:44] <Upu> the filters on habitat can fix it for you on display too
[21:44] <Upu> meaning floating points in your payload can die
[21:44] <Upu> which is a good thing
[21:45] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[21:45] <eroomde> http://i.imgur.com/POde6.jpg
[21:45] <Upu> http://i.cr3ation.co.uk/dl/s1/gif/847032b8a331def77529b6a0384db1fe_disneystarwars.gif
[21:46] <daveake> lol
[21:46] <Lunar_Lander> damn google died
[21:47] <Lunar_Lander> I can't logout
[21:47] <eroomde> ,,http://gifs.gifbin.com/042011/reverse-1302020965_baby-takes-the-stairs-to-get-to-his-bottle.gif
[21:48] <daveake> https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/530970_399498770119461_370139113_n.jpg
[21:48] <eroomde> http://i.imgur.com/4RPTt.jpg
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[21:55] <Lunar_Lander> ah google is back
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[22:00] <Lunar_Lander> Upu, what was your duration record for the 1.8 V GPS again?
[22:00] <Lunar_Lander> 27 hours?
[22:00] <Upu> not really a record but 27.5 hours
[22:00] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[22:04] <KF7FER> so upu... I asked the ublox US Distributor for a MAX-6 sample price quote. I got back $99 for qty 1-99. Ouch! I had to check my desktop to see if it was April 1st.
[22:04] <Upu> hah
[22:04] <Upu> well yours should be delivered to me tomorrow
[22:05] <Upu> fingers crossed
[22:05] <Upu> been promised them anyway
[22:05] <KF7FER> excellent, thanks.
[22:05] <Upu> I've spend all evening shaving 1.7mm from the pAva board to get it below 50mm
[22:06] <Upu> spent
[22:06] <KF7FER> don't you have parts overlap at that size? I had to actually lengthen my board to (converts) just under 60mm and it was a tight fit
[22:07] <Upu> no I've managed it
[22:07] <Upu> just
[22:07] <Upu> 49.37mm
[22:07] <Upu> 50mm PCB's are cheaper
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[22:07] <KF7FER> excellent. In the past I've used a edge-mounted SMA connector and that gives a bit more space (but you lose a little flexability)
[22:07] <KF7FER> oh... size does matter, eh?
[22:08] <Upu> yeah
[22:08] <eroomde> it's the way you flash it
[22:08] <Upu> makes it $20 for 10 vs $30+
[22:09] <KF7FER> wow... guess I pay too much for boards. I think my last run of 3 was $13.75 shipped (that was 1"x2.75") but I do get a turnaround of 12 days
[22:10] <KF7FER> sorry for the uncivilized measurements
[22:10] <Upu> I get 12 days from China :/
[22:10] <KF7FER> <sighs>
[22:10] <Upu> if you pay for DHL which is $25
[22:10] <Upu> you get them in 5 working days
[22:10] <Upu> http://ukhas.org.uk/_detail/general:img_0970.jpg?id=general%3Aukhasbadgeboard
[22:11] <eroomde> octave built under clang!
[22:11] <eroomde> http://i.imgur.com/Bqp4z.gif.jpg
[22:11] <Upu> got 50 of those in black
[22:11] <Upu> for £50
[22:11] <KF7FER> very nice!
[22:11] <Upu> so about $80
[22:11] <Lunar_Lander> DHL !
[22:11] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[22:11] <Lunar_Lander> DHL of germany
[22:12] Action: Laurenceb got trolled
[22:12] <KF7FER> well there have been times when I could have used 5 working days delivery
[22:12] <KF7FER> I will support Laen as much as I can but a guy does have his needs
[22:12] <Upu> well I can introduce you to a very nice man
[22:12] <Upu> who can
[22:12] <Upu> yup
[22:12] <KF7FER> thanks, I appreciate it
[22:12] <Upu> right dog walk
[22:13] <Upu> in the driving rain and cold
[22:13] <m0psi> hi all. what power supply arrangements do you use, in flight, for the 5v arduino? 3 x AA (i.e. 4.5v)?
[22:13] <KF7FER> is that like a dogs breakfast?
[22:13] <Upu> England ftw!
[22:13] <KF7FER> sounds like Oregon
[22:13] <Upu> you need 4 1.5's Ali
[22:13] <Upu> afk
[22:13] <KF7FER> m0psi: an actual Arduino board, or a clone of some sort?
[22:14] <m0psi> ok, so 4.5v is 5v, for this purpose
[22:14] <m0psi> yes KF7FER, an arduino clone, freedruino
[22:14] <KF7FER> I know the guys here have far more experience at low-voltages than I do, but I've built an APRS tracker that runs at 5v and it will run for 30hrs on 4xAA
[22:15] <KF7FER> certainly not outstanding but good enough for a day's flight
[22:15] <KF7FER> just a data point :-)
[22:15] <m0psi> do you potential divide it down, or feed it 6v?
[22:15] <KF7FER> I use a MIC2920A LDO voltage regulator (my transmitter wants 5v)
[22:16] <m0psi> ok
[22:16] <m0psi> i guess i can use 7905
[22:16] <m0psi> on a 6v rail
[22:16] <KF7FER> can't find anything better?
[22:16] <KF7FER> oops, sorry. Thought you said 7805. my bad
[22:16] <m0psi> 78 is negative?
[22:16] <m0psi> right?
[22:17] <KF7FER> no, it's an old school VR... needs 7v in
[22:17] <KF7FER> 5v fixed
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[22:17] <m0psi> ok, need to look at the one you mentioned then
[22:18] <KF7FER> kinda spendy but I like it.
[22:18] <m0psi> i'll need to soak test the easy way first :-)
[22:19] <m0psi> i'll feed it 3 x AA, and see how long it behaves
[22:19] <KF7FER> what sort of transmitter are you using?
[22:19] <m0psi> hey, i could use the potential devider as a heater :-)
[22:19] <m0psi> ntx2
[22:19] <KF7FER> Lucky. You should look into running at 3.3v.
[22:20] <KF7FER> not hard to build an Arduino clone that uses FTDI and runs at 3.3v
[22:20] <KF7FER> cheap and real low power
[22:20] <m0psi> i got the 5v gps breakout
[22:20] <m0psi> for this first mission
[22:20] <KF7FER> what gps?
[22:20] <m0psi> ublox6
[22:20] <KF7FER> great choice
[22:21] <m0psi> y, seems simple. and simple is good for first mission. KISS
[22:21] <eroomde> ublox 6 good for almost everything
[22:21] <eroomde> simple to complexicated
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[22:21] <KF7FER> small too
[22:21] <m0psi> what precision is expected from it eroomde
[22:22] <m0psi> i should say, acuracy
[22:22] <eroomde> well, that depends on a few things like the rientation of the sats above you and stuff
[22:23] <eroomde> but i think they say there's a 50% chnace you're within about 3m of where it says
[22:23] <eroomde> and a 90% chance within 10
[22:23] <eroomde> or something of that order
[22:23] <m0psi> good enough for this app then
[22:24] <eroomde> yep
[22:24] <eroomde> you won;t get much better with a single receiver
[22:24] <m0psi> oh, is that how accuracy is increased? some democracy setup?
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[22:26] <eroomde> you can track the carrier phase of the sats
[22:26] <eroomde> being 1.5GHz ish, and being able to track the phase to within say 10% accuracy, you can get positionaing accuracy therefore to about 2cm
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[22:27] <eroomde> but you need some other equipment to get the phase measurements
[22:27] <m0psi> that is astonishing
[22:27] <eroomde> like a 2nd receiver
[22:28] <eroomde> if you use the military freuency with carrier phase techniques, you can get accuracy to about 2mm
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[22:28] <m0psi> if you think of the scale of the 'experiment', and all the errors that could creep in
[22:28] <m0psi> wow
[22:28] <eroomde> yeah it's amazing really
[22:28] <m0psi> is the EU gps going to be better?
[22:29] <eroomde> yes
[22:29] <eroomde> but the new block of gps sats are also good
[22:29] <eroomde> but just the more sats in total, the better
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[22:29] <eroomde> as if you have N observations of something (eg position estimates from a sat), you varience is 1/N
[22:29] <eroomde> so as N gets bigger, the varience (uncertainty) gets smaller
[22:29] <m0psi> then the size of the antenna will be the limiting factor! but i guess you calibrate it anway
[22:30] <m0psi> sure
[22:30] <eroomde> yeah the natenna design for surveying stuff is waitchcraft
[22:30] <eroomde> to me
[22:30] <m0psi> the 'less chance of being wrong'
[22:31] <eroomde> zackly
[22:31] <eroomde> bayes rule just encodes intuition in a pretty way
[22:31] <m0psi> indeed
[22:34] <eroomde> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozoTzkCeO-A&noredirect=1#t=3m12s
[22:34] <eroomde> then after you've watched this, cure yourself with some soul train
[22:34] <SpeedEvil> are you aware that Bayes is illegal?
[22:34] <m0psi> i've been looking for that for ages. How did you find it!!!
[22:34] <Randomskk> SpeedEvil: blurgh blurgh
[22:35] <Randomskk> one precedent
[22:35] <eroomde> i am aware you're about to post a link to a court decision that says something slightly different
[22:36] <SpeedEvil> Randomskk: yeah
[22:36] <SpeedEvil> I can't find the link
[22:37] <SpeedEvil> basically it was along the lines of 'you can't guide the juries reasoning with this newfangled math'
[22:37] <m0psi> eroomde, i won't forgive you for wasting 1min 13s of my time with that video!!
[22:37] <eroomde> here is the cure to that video btw
[22:37] <eroomde> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0g7KawdsVSQ&feature=related
[22:37] <eroomde> just incase you're feeling a bit too white after watching it
[22:38] <Randomskk> SpeedEvil: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_v_Adams
[22:38] <m0psi> ok i could watch that one :-)
[22:39] <SpeedEvil> Randomskk: mental
[22:40] <Randomskk> insane
[22:40] <Randomskk> wait, the final appeal was unsuccessful? the guy got jailed
[22:40] <Randomskk> goodness
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[22:41] <eroomde> right ttfn
[22:41] <SpeedEvil> night
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[22:42] <KF7FER> m0spi: if when you said 'freeduino' you mean the Duemilanove clone of the same name take a look at something like http://www.dimensionengineering.com/products/de-sw050. There should be lots of pin compatible replacements
[22:44] <KF7FER> oops, sorry m0psi.
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[22:44] <m0psi> kf7fer it is the freeduino v1.16
[22:46] <KF7FER> honestly you'd do better with a clone that didn't have on-board FTDI (why waste the power.. well, unless you're meeting someone at 80,000' with a USB cable) but you might want to - at least - replace the VR with something a little thriftier.
[22:46] <KF7FER> in the grand scheme of things it probably doesn't matter though
[22:47] <m0psi> its been such a while since i got my freeduino, so i don't know the rationale
[22:47] <m0psi> what's the ftdi ?
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[22:47] <KF7FER> well I mean the on-board USB to FTDI converter. I typically prefer a board that simply has a 5-pin header and I use an ftdi cable (or an adapter)
[22:48] <KF7FER> oops - I mean USB to TTL serial
[22:48] <KF7FER> typically the chip is made by FTDI
[22:48] <KF7FER> or at least in the older days :-)
[22:48] <m0psi> so, you mean the usb port being useless when operational?
[22:48] <Upu> FTDI is the maker of the chip on the UM232R
[22:48] <Upu> and what is on the Arduino board
[22:49] <KF7FER> m0psi: well once the board is running you don't need to waste the power and carry the weight
[22:49] <KF7FER> and thanks Upu, that's what I meant
[22:49] <m0psi> ok, so the suggestion is to have a board that has no um232
[22:49] <Upu> um232 is just the evaluation board
[22:49] <Upu> http://www.ftdichip.com/Support/Documents/DataSheets/Modules/DS_UM232R.pdf
[22:50] <m0psi> ok. this is a new thing. what i'm hearing is that i should consider an arduino board that does not have a usb connector, and just program the atMega directly
[22:50] <m0psi> is that right?
[22:50] <KF7FER> I get sloppy and call everything an FTDI cable but what I mean is using https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9716
[22:51] <KF7FER> m0psi: sorta. Just not the on-board hardware itself.
[22:51] <KF7FER> have you seen the lilypad?
[22:51] <Upu> get comfortable with the Uno board etc first
[22:51] <Upu> if your new to it I'd start slowly
[22:51] <m0psi> :-) i was just about to say that upu
[22:51] <Upu> Evening Lunar
[22:51] <m0psi> i need to have success on mission one. then i'll start the zen of habbing! :-)
[22:51] <KF7FER> Upu is right, your freeduino will make a great testbed but you might want to fly with something else
[22:52] <KF7FER> certainly you've got what it takes to make things work for an inital go
[22:53] <m0psi> y. in fact, i've forgotten that the school's arduino is this one, and i'm using my freeduino as a learning tool for now
[22:54] <m0psi> http://uk.farnell.com/arduino/a000066/eval-atmega328p-8bit-uno-rv3/dp/2075382
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[22:59] <KF7FER> so I got talked into helping with APRS for an upcoming marathon and I was thinking... I'd like to put a digipeater in a teathered balloon to help with coverage. Has anyone done anything like that? Say 500-1000 feet?
[23:00] <KF7FER> if I was using a Raspi I'd add that "perhaps this is just pie in the sky thinking"
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[23:01] <Randomskk> KF7FER: repeaters have been flown
[23:02] <Randomskk> I'm not personally aware of any digipeaters
[23:02] <Randomskk> I don't see why you couldn't
[23:02] <SpeedEvil> that is not in principle insane
[23:02] <Randomskk> tethered balloons are surprisingly annoying
[23:02] <SpeedEvil> even modest winds will floor it though
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[23:02] <KF7FER> Randomskk: The annonying part is what I'm wondering about. And SpeedEvil - my concern exactly
[23:02] <SpeedEvil> 10m/s ascent free means that at 10m/s Ariel wind, it'll be at 45 degrees
[23:03] <Randomskk> KF7FER: my stock advice for tethered balloons is "don't"
[23:03] <Randomskk> but, well
[23:03] <Randomskk> you could overfill a lot which would help
[23:03] <Randomskk> and possibly use multiple tethers
[23:03] <SpeedEvil> use a blimp powered up the wire to start keep
[23:03] <SpeedEvil> station keep
[23:04] <Randomskk> with three tether lines in a triangle you'd do a lot better
[23:04] <Randomskk> well.
[23:04] <Randomskk> not much.
[23:04] <Randomskk> but a bit!
[23:04] Action: Randomskk thinks about that
[23:04] <Randomskk> I guess it wouldn't really help much at all. I've never tried it, anyway
[23:04] <Randomskk> honestly I'd just get a tall colapsible mast
[23:05] <KF7FER> I was just curious - I'm kinda concerned that while it's possible it may be more hassle than it's worth. Might be better to find the nearest hill and put a solar-powered digipeater there
[23:05] <Randomskk> and put an antenna at the top
[23:05] <Randomskk> or that
[23:05] <Randomskk> I think it's definitely more hassle than it is worth
[23:05] <KF7FER> bummer. It sounds really cool
[23:05] <KF7FER> you know, latex, cigars
[23:05] <KF7FER> :-)
[23:06] <KF7FER> I guess it's pretty flat terrain and they will have a 30' mast or so and I've got a truck with a portable digipeater so I'll probably stick with that
[23:06] <Randomskk> I imagine the 30' mast will do the trick
[23:07] <KF7FER> doesn't seem to have the wow factor though
[23:07] <KF7FER> I suspect I'll have enough on my hands helping them get the command center setup rather than mess with an errant toy
[23:07] <Randomskk> probably
[23:08] <Randomskk> toys are fun though
[23:08] <SpeedEvil> I/be wondered about a ducted fan on a string
[23:08] <SpeedEvil> for antennas
[23:08] <KF7FER> SpeedEvil - isn't the problem the signal loss in the cable, assuming you're just lofting the antenna
[23:09] <SpeedEvil> I was assuming just power
[23:09] <SpeedEvil> you talk to it either at near DC, or via a radio link
[23:10] <KF7FER> oh, ok. I love the idea of lofting some sort of platform
[23:11] <craag> As a quick to setup antenna, a ribbon-feeder j-pole on a 10m telescopic fibreglass fishing rod works great. Can be put up in about 30 seconds and held upright with one hand and some footing.
[23:12] <KF7FER> so I see craag has to jump in with the voice of reason. I'm talking airships man!
[23:12] <KF7FER> good idea, thanks
[23:13] <SpeedEvil> trained ducks
[23:13] <KF7FER> with lasers?
[23:14] <craag> I've always wanted to try a couple of handhelds cabled together under a balloon. The local radio guys reckon it's probably illegal in the UK though.
[23:14] <KF7FER> craag: some sort of cross-band repeater or something?
[23:15] <craag> Yeah exactly, so you don't need heavy filters. Although I'm sure people have found more elegant ways of doing it.
[23:18] <KF7FER> cool. I want to try doing that or a simplex repeater on my next flight
[23:18] <KF7FER> I did some work on building my own simplex repeater board but kinda got sidetracked
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[23:20] <KF7FER> I'm really wanting to get some sort of UAV to use in recovery, but as usual my dreams outstrip my skills and, more importantly, my budget
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[23:22] <craag> Sounds very cool.
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[23:23] <craag> fly-itself-back kind of thing?
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[23:24] <KF7FER> actually that's a different issue - I'd like to try something that comes back, but I'm thinking of a tool to be used during payload recovery. Something that could have a camera and a digipeater and pickup a payload on the ground in heavy brush. Kinda like our first flight.
[23:25] <KF7FER> we landed within 1/2 mile of an access road but there was a ridge between us and the payload. I couldn't pickup anything from the tracker once it hit the ground
[23:25] <SpeedEvil> KF7FER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OW2UvW6xLP8&feature=youtube_gdata_player
[23:28] <KF7FER> SpeedEvil: That's amazing! I'm surprised it's legal
[23:28] <craag> Ah ok, that would be rather useful.
[23:29] <KF7FER> property owners might now like it though
[23:29] <KF7FER> now=not
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[23:29] <craag> I'm trying to think how a similar thing could be done with the 70cm RTTY system, but APRS would be far easier for certain.
[23:30] <Randomskk> wasn't that in a Bond film?
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[23:32] <KF7FER> craag: APRS can be amazing. I really like what I've seen with RTTY though. Looks like more with less.
[23:34] <craag> I've played around a lot with APRS i-gates and digipeaters, the great thing is how cheap it is to implement, even if it really sucks from any comms-engineering point of view.
[23:35] <craag> The RTTY system is great, and the whole dl-fldigi and habitat structure is awesome. But the receivers are rather expensive, especially if you want something compact.
[23:36] <KF7FER> craag: you've hit on my sore spot - the cost of the receiver. That's a real bummer. I'd hoped to use my VX-3R but no go.
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[23:37] <craag> I use an RTL-SDR which works great, did a whole pico flight + recovery with it set to 0dB gain (didn't know at the time) and no habamp. But it's a pain to carry around laptop+dongle+yagi while looking for the payload!
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[23:38] <KF7FER> guess it's time for me to look into SDR. I did have a discussion with the guy who makes an SDR called the Peaberry (I think)
[23:39] <craag> Now with the proper gain setting (+40dB) and a HABamp, I can track flights 100 miles away with the 144MHz slim-jim and 10m pole previously mentioned.
[23:40] <KF7FER> nice
[23:42] <SpeedEvil> nexus 7, running Ubuntu should work we'll
[23:47] <m0psi> yay! I'm making RTTY!!!!
[23:47] <m0psi> (little things...)
[23:47] <m0psi> just thought i would share that :-)
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[23:51] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[23:53] <fsphil> always a nice moment
[23:53] <m0psi> very special
[23:54] <m0psi> biggg beaming smile
[23:54] <m0psi> it's real magic
[23:54] <m0psi> so, now to make it do clever thing, beyond a test string
[23:55] <m0psi> anyone know if the freq of the tone is expected to be wavering
[23:55] <m0psi> the ntx2 freq seems unstable
[23:56] <m0psi> is that a warming up thing?
[23:56] <fsphil> it will drift slowly as it warms up
[23:56] <m0psi> right
[23:56] <m0psi> seems to be settling down a bit
[00:00] --- Thu Nov 1 2012