highaltitude.log.20121015

[00:00] <fsphil> might be worth emailing him to see when they're back in stock
[00:00] <m0psi> http://www.randomengineering.co.uk/Random_Aerospace/Balloons.html
[00:00] <m0psi> is the only one i can see
[00:00] <Lunar_Lander> hwoyee should start getting paypal
[00:00] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[00:00] <m0psi> other than importing them bloody things! :-)
[00:00] <fsphil> that's pretty much the only one in the UK m0psi
[00:00] <fsphil> we all get them from there
[00:00] <fsphil> most of my flights where with the totex 1000g
[00:01] <m0psi> well, i would rather support the local boys, and get them from him
[00:01] <m0psi> equally, i'm not launching yet, so no in a rush
[00:01] <m0psi> totex are twice the price though!
[00:01] <fsphil> yea get that a month or two before
[00:02] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[00:02] <Lunar_Lander> unfortunately, felix used up all of his balloons
[00:02] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[00:02] <fsphil> they actually have a shelf life so best not to keep them around
[00:02] <fsphil> sadly I have a nice 1600g that's nearly a year old
[00:03] <m0psi> so, why do you use totex ?
[00:03] <fsphil> there was no hwoyee back then :)
[00:03] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[00:04] <m0psi> ah
[00:04] <m0psi> good reason
[00:04] <fsphil> they only appeared about a year ago
[00:05] <fsphil> the last one I got was hwoyee but not launched yet
[00:05] <Lunar_Lander> and now balloons from India start to show up
[00:05] <m0psi> y, saw that
[00:05] <m0psi> any good?
[00:05] <fsphil> very few flights so far, but early data suggests not so good
[00:06] <m0psi> shame
[00:06] <fsphil> they're not that cheap either
[00:06] <m0psi> not so good = unpredictable?
[00:06] <fsphil> the last one burst much lower than expected
[00:07] <m0psi> oh, that's not so good
[00:07] <m0psi> ok, so, chutes:
[00:08] <m0psi> for a payload of 500-1000g, which one from our friend?
[00:08] <fsphil> there's a difficult to read graph somewhere on the wiki about that
[00:09] <fsphil> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:parachute_sizing_chart
[00:09] <m0psi> ta
[00:09] <fsphil> good luck
[00:09] <m0psi> what is your guess?
[00:09] <m0psi> from experience
[00:10] <fsphil> I've only recovered 50% so perhaps not the best to be advising chute sizes :)
[00:11] <m0psi> is the chute size a diameter, or area?
[00:11] <fsphil> diameter
[00:12] <m0psi> so, still doing imperial :-)
[00:12] <m0psi> we'll need to let that go, at some century!
[00:15] <m0psi> hmm, so it seems that a 1m chute, will work reasonablly for 500-1000g
[00:15] <Lunar_Lander> fsphil, what about if we start a british based balloon manufacture?
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[00:22] <m0psi> well, i'm getting there with my 'first project' document
[00:22] <m0psi> got my second presentation to the children tomorrow morning, to try to entice some year-10 kids
[00:22] <m0psi> and on wed is the kick-off meeting
[00:22] <m0psi> quite excited really
[00:23] <fsphil> hope it all goes down well
[00:23] <m0psi> y, very cool. even more excited after seeing felix today
[00:24] <m0psi> it was even more interesting seeing it with you lot on this channel
[00:24] <fsphil> it was a pretty unique event
[00:24] <m0psi> it was like being in a room full of geeks watching the lunar landings :-)
[00:25] <bbjunkie> dont insult these guys.. they're ubergeeks ;)
[00:26] <bbjunkie> gn i'm off to bed
[00:26] <m0psi> y, it was great. the coolest fact was that Yeager did it on the same date
[00:26] <m0psi> indeed they are!
[00:26] <m0psi> nn all
[00:27] <fsphil> yea same here
[00:27] <fsphil> nites!
[00:27] <Lunar_Lander> good night fsphil
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[02:17] <heathkid> can anyone confirm yet if he reached MACH 1?
[02:18] <heathkid> or are they still deciphering the data?
[02:19] <heathkid> I'll probably do a HAB launch this coming year... but I promise I won't be part of the payload. :)
[02:21] <Darkside> it says he reached 834mph
[02:22] <Darkside> which means he did go faster than the speed of sound, but likely in an area of the atmosphere where they wouldn't have been enough air to cause problems
[02:22] <Darkside> like, no shockwave i'd think
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[02:33] <heathkid> does that count as breaking the sound barrier then?
[02:34] <heathkid> because anyone who's ever stepped outside the shuttle or ISS or ... that should count too then.
[02:35] <heathkid> so where is the line drawn?
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[05:05] <oh7lzb> Likely he got the highest vertical velocity, or something.
[05:08] <SpeedEvil> also, sr71 bailout guy went faster.
[05:08] <SpeedEvil> not vertically
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[06:25] Nick change: Burn_ -> Burninate
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[06:41] <Upu> morning
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[07:09] <Upu> http://i.imgur.com/E00nl.gif
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[07:14] <RG-lz1dev> lol
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[07:26] <fsphil> always lands on his feat
[07:26] <fsphil> feet
[07:27] <CanadaWest> Does anyone use APRS?
[07:28] <CanadaWest> to trak their payloads?
[07:29] <gonzo_> that statem,ent needs to be scientifically tested phil. I know a very tall building, if someone can provide a box of calibrated cats
[07:29] <fsphil> I can provide one ... :)
[07:29] <gonzo_> CanadaWest, not in the UK. It's not legal to use AR bands airborne.
[07:29] <fsphil> it's quite common in north america though
[07:30] <gonzo_> what, chucking cats off buikldings.!
[07:30] <CanadaWest> Really? Interesting.
[07:31] <CanadaWest> I could use it, but most people in the UK can't.
[07:31] <gonzo_> seem to remember reading that cats falling from great heights usually do land on feet, but often crack their jaw on the ground as they land
[07:31] <CanadaWest> What are you guys using to communicate with your payloads?
[07:31] <gonzo_> CanadaWest, you mean uplinking?
[07:31] <eroomde> CanadaWest: there's a license exemption on 434Mhz, 10mW
[07:32] <eroomde> so we use little license-exempt off-the-shelf modules
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[07:32] <eroomde> usually sending 50 baud rtty
[07:32] <CanadaWest> gonzo_ : Well, it's more important to track, Downlink, but if I have both - awesome.
[07:32] <gonzo_> ok, misunderstood the question....
[07:33] <gonzo_> who will be first to post a wikiurl?
[07:33] <CanadaWest> I've been looking over your wiki.
[07:33] <eroomde> not I today. I am having a happy coffee
[07:33] <eroomde> yesterday we got our diy gps receiver working
[07:34] <CanadaWest> There's some good stuff, but whenever I go to buy the hardware, all the providers are in UK/EU.
[07:34] <CanadaWest> leads me to wonder if the 434Mhz is legal here...
[07:34] <eroomde> i believe it is
[07:34] <eroomde> well, if 'here' = canada then i am unsure
[07:34] <eroomde> but it's a pretty universal license exempt band
[07:34] <gonzo_> most of the questions for UK balloning is on the ukhas wiki. But it's very restrictiv over here
[07:35] <eroomde> used for things like cars keyfobs anf garage door openers
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[07:35] <CanadaWest> eroomde: It is, I'm in Canada. It's not just a name. :)
[07:35] <eroomde> certa`inly they use it in the US too
[07:35] <gonzo_> Check your licence, but you can proboably use APRS
[07:36] <eroomde> the US websites might, if you want to go with aprs, be the place to look
[07:36] <eroomde> they have their own fairly established way of doing things there
[07:37] <CanadaWest> If there's a US equivalent to UKHAS, I haven't found it yet.
[07:37] <fsphil> GPSL I suppose
[07:37] <gonzo_> ARHAB ?
[07:38] <CanadaWest> And of the project I've found over here, they all tend to use different things. APRS is common, but lots use off-the-shelf locators people use when hunting/hiking
[07:38] <fsphil> yea I suppose ARHAB would be more general
[07:38] <CanadaWest> gonzo_ : Looking up ARHAB, thanks!
[07:40] <gonzo_> I don't think that is US only. As there are other countries that permit balloon use of AR bands
[07:40] <gonzo_> but it has a lot of US content
[07:41] <gonzo_> aprs is a useful existing network. In the UK we had to create a HAB specific one.
[07:41] <gonzo_> (And most excellent it is guys!)
[07:42] <eroomde> necessity is the mother of invention etc
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[07:42] <CanadaWest> I actually like your tracking site quite a lot! There's not a lot of recievers on this continent though. The map shows only one in the US.
[07:43] <CanadaWest> The ARHAB seems to be a loose collection of ballooners. you guys seem more 'together'.
[07:45] <LazyLeopard> Number of receivers shown on map varies according to number of systems actually active recently....
[07:50] <eroomde> CanadaWest: but yes, it is quite close-knit here
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[07:56] <number10> 3D interaction with you PC https://leapmotion.com/
[07:56] <number10> +r
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[08:03] <fsphil> apparently the future is having sore arms
[08:05] <number10> that will limit some of these shooting zapping game times to something more realistic ;)
[08:08] <eroomde> number10: allow me to be a proud dad
[08:08] <eroomde> http://i.imgur.com/yv7PZ.jpg
[08:08] <eroomde> the v1 gps receiver hardware
[08:08] <eroomde> it works! can see all the gps sats above us
[08:08] <eroomde> er, v0.1 infact i can see i put on the silkscreen
[08:09] <eroomde> which shows my confidence
[08:09] <gonzo_> is that your own demod/positioning sw?
[08:10] <eroomde> yep
[08:10] <eroomde> so we now have out own hardware front end and our own sig-proc saoftware
[08:10] <eroomde> our own*
[08:10] <gonzo_> Like the red and blue wires, will keep the bomb squad busy, if a payload lands somewhere questionalble
[08:10] <eroomde> :)
[08:10] <eroomde> i don't think this one will fly
[08:11] <eroomde> it's more just to test the rf front end gubbins
[08:11] <gonzo_> is that the same system you have a talk on at an amsat colloqium, a while back?
[08:11] <eroomde> v0.2 will have a fairly decent arm chip on it to pack up the samples and time-stamp them with the inertial sensors and send them over ethernet
[08:11] <gonzo_> (OK, a later rev)
[08:12] <eroomde> gonzo_: well, i didn;t really do anything on that since then until about 2 months ago
[08:12] <eroomde> and we hadn't got the homemade hardware done at that point
[08:12] <eroomde> but now my interest is rekindles specifically because of the opportunuty to fuse it with the inertial sensors
[08:13] <gonzo_> degrees get in the way!
[08:13] <eroomde> and get really much more accurate position and velocity estimates from the combined system
[08:13] <eroomde> yep they do!
[08:17] <fsphil> there isn't much to it
[08:17] <eroomde> yep, that little chip is an excellent thing
[08:17] <eroomde> there's a bit of stuff on the underside
[08:17] <eroomde> but just passives
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[08:35] <number10> thats pretty cool eroomde
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[09:17] <eroomde> number10: today's MotD fun
[09:17] <eroomde> and it is a fun one today
[09:17] <eroomde> an obscure 50s soviet film
[09:17] <eroomde> about the life of Glinka
[09:17] <eroomde> featuring Liszt, a contemporary
[09:17] <number10> ok
[09:18] <eroomde> and Liszt is actually played by one of the really great pianists of the 20th centurey, a fairly young man at the time, sviatoslav richter
[09:18] <eroomde> who does a really funny job of impersonating liszt
[09:19] <eroomde> there'as a drawing from a 19th centurey hungarian cartoonists whose name i have forgotten, of liszt. i have a print of it which i quite like
[09:19] <number10> should be fun
[09:19] <eroomde> lemme see if it's on the good
[09:19] <eroomde> goog*
[09:19] <eroomde> cos it nicely sums up liszt
[09:19] <eroomde> http://www.cph.rcm.ac.uk/Tour/Images/Liszt.jpg
[09:19] <eroomde> that one
[09:19] <eroomde> anyway, richter is obviouly having a lot of fun pretending to be liszt
[09:19] <eroomde> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNIhu5qH3Ec
[09:20] <number10> about to watch - tnx
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[09:22] <X-Scale> I wonder if this is the only helmet cam video availabe for now -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eW8aP352pCg
[09:25] <X-Scale> chest cam, that is
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[09:26] Nick change: Laurenceb -> _FELIX_
[09:26] <_FELIX_> IS THE WIND FROM THE EAST?!
[09:26] <_FELIX_> AWAY FROM THE RIDGE YOU SAY?
[09:26] <number10> very like the caricature eroomde - I like the way he just occasionally glances at the score
[09:28] Nick change: _FELIX_ -> Laurenceb
[09:35] Nick change: soafee-chan -> spacekitteh
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[09:50] <kokey> the rfm22b drifts like a mofo
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[09:54] <navrac_work> oh you noticed kokey...
[09:55] <navrac_work> I've been working on fixing that drift for 2 weeks now
[09:56] <navrac_work> when is yours drifting?
[09:56] <eroomde> during the Today Programme
[09:56] <eroomde> before first coffee
[09:57] <navrac_work> mines worst during newsnight
[09:58] <Laurenceb> does it overrule you?
[09:59] <navrac_work> does this sound like a silly idea? - Ive been playing with it and it seems to sort of work. Its an idea for a lightweight dump valve for floaters.
[10:00] <navrac_work> get one of these http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:filling_foil_balloons
[10:00] <eroomde> it threatens to Laurenceb
[10:00] <navrac_work> the first picture and put it on the outside of the balloon so when the aire pressure decreases and the latex balloon pressure increases it leaks
[10:05] <navrac_work> no comments?
[10:05] <navrac_work> I expected to be shot down in flames several times by now
[10:09] <SpeedEvil> there is a
[10:09] <SpeedEvil> always some pressure between in and out
[10:10] <SpeedEvil> you new a valve that can dump large amounts - hundreds of litres a minute at 3mb differential, but not at 2mb
[10:10] <SpeedEvil> need
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[10:14] <navrac_work> surely its just a question of sizing the width and length of the tunnel - once they open it does seem to let a fair amount out
[10:14] <SpeedEvil> that valve is designed so that it leaks on positive pressure. any pressure
[10:15] <eroomde> navrac_work: that's a zero pressure balloon that you've just reinvented
[10:15] <navrac_work> actually it doesnt - it needs quite a head of pressure to open it initialyy
[10:16] <SpeedEvil> the amount of pressure is poorly controlled
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[10:17] <navrac_work> i tried several width and lengths and could roughly change the pressure required to open it - but its flow rate isnt very high once you restrict it
[10:19] <jcoxon> ping Upu
[10:19] <Upu> pong
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[10:30] <fsphil> new rpi boards are shipping with 512Mb of ram. awww
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[10:42] <mfa298> fsphil: that's going to be nice for all the people who havn't got one yet.
[10:45] <fsphil> indeed
[10:45] <zyp> or the ones going to get another, it's not like it's expensive
[10:45] <fsphil> I had one ordered with RS months ago
[10:45] <fsphil> still not arrived, which I guess means it'll be the 512mb version
[10:45] <eroomde> we had one arrive this morning
[10:46] <eroomde> ordered a few months ago
[10:46] <zyp> did it get shipped?
[10:46] <eroomde> evidently
[10:46] <mfa298> I'm going to have to find a third project for one now :P.
[10:46] <fsphil> rocketpi
[10:46] <zyp> I ordered one way back, which apparently got shipped during summer while I was away
[10:47] <fsphil> last email from RS said it was delayed
[10:47] <zyp> I never received it, so after a couple of months I mailed them and they sent me another
[10:47] <fsphil> I've not heard anything since
[10:47] <zyp> but I think that was farnell
[10:48] <eroomde> i think for us rocketpi will be beaglebone pi
[10:48] <eroomde> they're really a lot lot better in a lot of dimensions
[10:48] <eroomde> excepot money
[10:48] <eroomde> but if it's going to be part of a rocket that costs several hundred quidanyway...
[10:48] <fsphil> yes
[10:48] <fsphil> no point skimping on the computer for that
[10:51] <eroomde> the smallest linux board with sata
[10:52] <eroomde> anyone know what that might be?
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[10:54] <kokey> the sata controller with linux firmware? ;-)
[10:54] <eroomde> something that is also a bit general purpose and easy enough to program for :)
[10:55] <kokey> you need high speed SATA performance?
[10:55] <kokey> since SATA over USB doesn't seem too bad
[10:55] <kokey> or expensive, or big
[10:55] <eroomde> not by the standards of sata really, but perhaps by usb
[10:55] <eroomde> 40Mbits/s constant
[10:56] <kokey> ah yeah don't think you cant count on that over USB
[10:56] <eroomde> a bit more than that actually
[10:59] <kokey> navrac_work: my rfm22b drifts most during the first minute or so, and then after any break that it has it starts a little bit low and recovers within 60ms of txing again
[10:59] <navrac_work> 60mS ? thats quite fast
[10:59] <kokey> navrac_work: I poll the GPS so I'm not sending anything to the rfm22b at that time, now I also send a \r\n before I start with $$CALLSIGN to get around that
[10:59] <Laurenceb> eroomde: theres some marvell cube computer thing
[11:00] <eroomde> marvellous
[11:00] <fsphil> oh dear
[11:00] <Laurenceb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CuBox
[11:00] <kokey> yeah 60ms, \r\n, enough to get it back on track
[11:00] <kokey> still, there is some slow drift even with that
[11:00] <navrac_work> try putting a blob of heatsink on the chip and then a lump of metal on top of it - i used a hex screwdriver bit initially
[11:00] <kokey> yeah I noticed how it drifted when I put it outside on the balcony
[11:01] <kokey> but it's bad enough indoors already
[11:01] <navrac_work> its not the crystal as such but the rfm's xtal oscillator circuitry thats really temp sensitive
[11:02] <kokey> it takes an external clock tho?
[11:02] <navrac_work> if you desolder the crystal you can inject a clock onto the crystal pad nearest the chip
[11:03] <costyn> Darkside: ping
[11:03] <Darkside> costyn:
[11:03] <costyn> Darkside: so yea the library you sent me didn't work unfortunately. still not parsing those ublox sentences
[11:03] <navrac_work> my current one has an external crystal with varuicap diode and a single inverter as the xtal osc circuit with a resistyor feedback and it sorts out all the drifty issues
[11:03] <costyn> Darkside: you sure that's the one you use?
[11:03] <Darkside> yes, but to use it we poll it for PUBX sentences
[11:04] <costyn> Darkside: yes, I too used the PUBX*33 method
[11:04] <Darkside> dunno then
[11:04] <costyn> and gps is returning sentences nicely
[11:05] <kokey> yeah I poll them and it works cool for me
[11:05] <kokey> navrac_work: ah, yikes, fine soldering that
[11:05] <costyn> it worked pre-arduino 1.0 for me too, but the library linked in the wiki is not for arduino 1.0 last time I checked, but let me test again
[11:06] <navrac_work> err no kokey - cut the original xtal in half with side cutters and then tidied up - i used the brute force approach
[11:06] <kokey> navrac_work: haha, ok
[11:07] <navrac_work> i did try to desolder it but no chance
[11:07] <kokey> wonder if it would work to have another reference clock, and then pitch the tx freq to compensate
[11:08] <kokey> don't know how you'd be able to read the real tx freq from the rfm22b tho
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[11:13] <navrac_work> you can configure gpio2 to give the clock divided by n - however the smallest step on the rfm is 156hz so its not much use
[11:14] <navrac_work> i did tie the rfm clock input to a frequency multiplier off the gps timepulse out and that worked. but it has issues. The gps clock is terrible until you get lock and you have to power up the rfm after you had a good clock from the gps otherwise it freezes up
[11:15] <navrac_work> external tcxo is the easiest for 3.3v . for 1.8v you have to make your own external xtal osc
[11:17] <kokey> does the rfm22b drift as badly on the built in gfsk modes etc?
[11:17] <kokey> I suppose it would
[11:19] <kokey> navrac_work: have you got a picture of your external clock soldering setup?
[11:20] <navrac_work> not got a camera here - but I'll see if I can sketch something
[11:20] <navrac_work> can you see the two pads for where you could fit a big crystal
[11:21] <kokey> ah, yes
[11:21] <kokey> looking at a picture, my stuff's at home
[11:22] <kokey> ah yes it's not small at all
[11:22] <kokey> I thought it was smaller than the pins
[11:26] <navrac_work> http://imgur.com/d7m00 where the red dot is kokey
[11:27] <kokey> ah yes, thanks, I figured you meant that one
[11:28] <kokey> what external tcxo did you use?
[11:28] <navrac_work> kokey: on internal modes the receiver autotunes so its not so fussy
[11:29] <navrac_work> one minute - need to look up past orders
[11:30] <kokey> ah yeah I thought it can't always be this bad, it must have been 'good enough' for the normal way it's used
[11:31] <navrac_work> you could try this one - i used a 10mhz with a x3 multiplier, but this one is close enough although you need to recalibrate the freq routine - i also did have a 30mhz one from farnell? but it wasnt as stable
[11:33] <kokey> should you basically try match the original xtal frequency?
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[11:34] <kokey> oh, looks like the original is 30mhz
[11:37] <navrac_work> you should - I know the rfm wont lock its pll if the freq error >10%, but not sure where its range lies as i broke the pppm pin of my gps so couldnt experiment with what frequencies it will take
[11:38] <fsphil> had to minimise the window, the wooshing sound of all this going over my head was getting annoying :)
[11:38] <navrac_work> ah the 30mhz one was a sample
[11:39] <kokey> the ZT5060 looks interesting
[11:40] <navrac_work> IIRC it was minimum order 1000 2 months delivery
[11:40] <kokey> fsphil: I just know about this stuff because we used to overclock our 8086 PCs
[11:40] <fsphil> nice
[11:40] <fsphil> my first overclocking was on a 486
[11:41] <fsphil> but that was just switching jumpers
[11:41] <kokey> I think it was the NEC 8086 that we managed to get up to 48mhz, normally 16-20mhz
[11:41] <kokey> but the keyboard bios wouldn't keep up, so you had to write a batch file for what you want to have done
[11:43] <fsphil> I had a celetron 533mhz clocked to 800mhz, I think. can't remember the exact numbers now
[11:43] <navrac_work> oh btw if you have a clipped sine output you still need an inverter + R+C to turn it into a square wave for the rfm
[11:46] <kokey> I remember trying to build an IR remote, and using a 555 to make it do 38khz I think
[11:46] <kokey> for some CRT projector I bought on the cheap
[11:47] <kokey> in the end I just bought a replacement remote for £40
[11:54] <fsphil> I just dumped a load of remote control sensors that came with some tv capture cards
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[11:56] <navrac_work> kokey: this is what im currently doing http://imgur.com/3Tr8d
[11:58] <navrac_work> gives me a nice finely tuneable rfm - i can hit most steps to about a hz and whilst it drifts a bit with temperature the shift is largely constant
[11:59] <navrac_work> it doesnt show the op amp and filter for the pwm output though
[12:03] <kokey> what's the 1.8v from?
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[12:04] <kokey> oh, there's an 1.8v arduino
[12:06] <navrac_work> well you can do it with a 3v3 one - the actual control range i use is 1 to 1.8v so the step drift is less with temp - the op amp offsets and scales the pwm from the arduino and filters it
[12:07] <navrac_work> so just a question of changing the resistor values on the op amd for a 3v3 version
[12:08] <Upu> there isn't an official 1.8v Arduino
[12:08] <Upu> afternoon Navrac
[12:08] <navrac_work> afternoon upu
[12:08] <Upu> so got something working ?
[12:08] <navrac_work> ish, needs a bit of time and fine tuning
[12:09] <Upu> excellent
[12:09] <Laurenceb> interesting
[12:09] <Laurenceb> id try loking it to gps timepulse
[12:09] <Upu> I think he was
[12:09] <navrac_work> the cap values are a bit suss as its on breadboard
[12:09] <Upu> yeah
[12:09] <navrac_work> this ones not locked cos i broke the timepulse pin off the gps module yesterday afternoon
[12:09] <Upu> I don't think a tuned circuit on a bread board is ever going to be right
[12:10] <eroomde> +1 :)
[12:10] <Laurenceb> oops
[12:10] <navrac_work> nope- not at all - especially when you are playing in single digit pf's
[12:11] <eroomde> and the tolerance on such components is often not what it should be either
[12:11] <eroomde> well, the tolerance is what it should be in that it is as advertised - a bit crap
[12:11] <navrac_work> but it can hit the 15hz steps for domino and seems to be quite good at low temps but i havent had time for a long freezer test yet
[12:12] <Upu> thats great
[12:12] <Darkside> have you got it running with domino yet?
[12:12] <Upu> well like I say happy to make a PCB to take it further
[12:12] <Darkside> because that needs some serious frequency accuracy
[12:12] <eroomde> yeah i was gonna say
[12:12] <navrac_work> tolerance isnt that important - you can tune out the critical bits in the pwm
[12:12] <Laurenceb> if you do pcb can you tie timepulse to input capture?
[12:13] <Laurenceb> and clk timer off the clkout?
[12:13] <navrac_work> I can hit a frequency to an aqccuracy of about a hz and a bit - and domino seems happy with upto 3hz step error
[12:13] <kokey> wonder if you could just broadcast a reference frequency from the ground
[12:13] <Laurenceb> nice
[12:13] <Laurenceb> kokey: its called gps
[12:13] <Laurenceb> and its from space
[12:13] <eroomde> spaaaace!!!1!one
[12:14] <navrac_work> domino doesnty mind drift - its good at coping with it - its the steps in relation to each other thats critical
[12:14] <Darkside> SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE
[12:14] <Darkside> SPACE
[12:14] <Darkside> REALLY BIG
[12:14] <Darkside> LOTS OF SPACE
[12:14] <Darkside> SPACE
[12:14] <Darkside> I'M THE BEST AT SPACE
[12:14] <eroomde> you've become brian cox
[12:14] <Darkside> ok i'm done now
[12:14] <kokey> cool, I'm going to park in it
[12:15] <navrac_work> and keeping the steps accurate wrt temperature is all about using the smallest possible range of the varicap so that it is less effected by temp
[12:15] <Laurenceb> you could do that better with gps
[12:15] <navrac_work> ill give it a good long freezer test this weekend
[12:16] <Laurenceb> cool
[12:16] <eroomde> well, if it can do dominoex decodable over the whole temp range, that's v cool
[12:16] <Laurenceb> see what i did there
[12:16] <navrac_work> could do - but it reqd the kalman? filter and that went woosh over my head
[12:16] <Laurenceb> yes
[12:16] <NigelMoby> supercool!
[12:16] <Laurenceb> you need a kalman filter to make it work
[12:17] <eroomde> navrac_work: does it require a kaloman filter?which bit?
[12:17] <eroomde> or Laurenceb
[12:17] <Laurenceb> tracking changing vco behaviour with temperature
[12:17] <fsphil> ace of space Darkside?
[12:17] <navrac_work> no it doesnt - as long as you dont mind the overall slow temp drift
[12:17] <Laurenceb> based on timepulse input capture
[12:18] <kokey> I suppose if I change from 2 stop bits to one, or from 8 bit to 7 bits, my rtty baud rate will be affected
[12:18] <navrac_work> this circuit doesnt need the kalman and it overcomes the rfm drift on tx start, seems so far to handle a consistent step size - but it does drift overall
[12:18] <fsphil> your baud rate will not be affected, but your characters/second rate will
[12:18] <navrac_work> your cps rate will change
[12:18] <kokey> h, baud and bpm is bits, doh
[12:18] <kokey> heh
[12:19] <navrac_work> i always use the lowest no of bits and 1 stop to make the message go out quicker
[12:19] <fsphil> fldigi works better with 2 stop bits
[12:19] <eroomde> Laurenceb: in the KF, what are you measuring exactly?
[12:19] <kokey> yeah I am thinking of making my sentences shorter, but I'll stick to 8n2 probably
[12:19] <navrac_work> true - but local qrm and shorter tx time is more important to me
[12:19] <Laurenceb> eroomde: the problem is you cant pll onto gps using timepulse
[12:19] <eroomde> do you need a gps ref to track the vco freq?
[12:19] <Laurenceb> yes
[12:19] <eroomde> aaaaah
[12:19] <fsphil> 8-bit is likely overkill though, if you're just tx'ing text
[12:19] <eroomde> right i see now
[12:20] <Laurenceb> so vco -> timer
[12:20] <fsphil> I only use 8-bit for images, if it wasn't for that I'd use 7-bit
[12:20] <Laurenceb> timepulse -> input capture
[12:20] <eroomde> ah ok
[12:20] <Laurenceb> then you run a KF
[12:20] <Laurenceb> to track vco center frequency, and voltage "gain"
[12:20] <eroomde> and you're hopping the gps timepulse jitter is stationary mean ergodic white noise?
[12:21] <Laurenceb> using the transmitted vco voltages
[12:21] <Laurenceb> hehe
[12:21] <Laurenceb> yes
[12:21] <eroomde> that might be an assumption too far
[12:21] <eroomde> depending on the integration time
[12:21] <eroomde> dunno
[12:21] <navrac_work> sadly if you loose lock the jitter off the pwm ouput is non trivial
[12:21] <navrac_work> sorry ppm
[12:22] <kokey> how useful are human readable strings?
[12:22] <navrac_work> in fact it drifts like feck
[12:22] <navrac_work> very useful
[12:22] <kokey> I suppose you want lat, long, alt and callsign human readable
[12:22] <navrac_work> often pacjkagesd are recovered by piecing together incomplete ones
[12:23] <navrac_work> lunchtime
[12:23] <navrac_work> bbl
[12:23] <LazyLeopard> Yep, if it's human-readable then you can quickly extract useful stuff from damaged packets. If it isn't human-readable you're stuffed.
[12:23] Action: Laurenceb is not having a good day
[12:23] <Laurenceb> $200 pump just seized up
[12:23] <LazyLeopard> Ugh.
[12:24] <kokey> I'm thinking of packing it up base<x> encoded with golay FEC in a single field, after important human readable parts
[12:24] <fsphil> you think that's bad, someone just took the last kitkat here :(
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[12:24] <kokey> or perhaps one human readable string, and a couple of packed strings
[12:25] <kokey> though I don't see habitat supporting different string formats, unless I assign a different callsign for each or something
[12:25] <kokey> or stuff both formats into one string
[12:25] <fsphil> it can handle different formats
[12:26] <kokey> I would like one short human readable lat,long,alt one, and one of the same length with the packed data in FEC in it
[12:27] <fsphil> I tried that on my last flight
[12:28] <fsphil> both the binary packets and the regular ones stopped decoding at about the same time
[12:29] <fsphil> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:apx
[12:29] <mattbrejza> can fldigi give soft decisions?
[12:29] <fsphil> possibly could be made to
[12:30] <fsphil> I recently added some code to tell the RS decoder when a byte was missing
[12:30] <fsphil> I must re-run the last flight see if that decodes any more
[12:30] <mattbrejza> also RS is a bit old tech now anyway
[12:30] <fsphil> it is, but super simple :)
[12:31] <mattbrejza> most of the complexity is in the decoder anyway
[12:31] <fsphil> it suits the kind of data I send though, fixed-length packets
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[12:31] <mattbrejza> yea non fixed length is somewhat more arkward
[12:31] <mattbrejza> unless you have short block lengths
[12:32] <mattbrejza> but then you get crappy performance
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[12:32] <fsphil> aye
[12:32] <fsphil> something that transmits continously could benifit from something like convolution coding
[12:33] <mattbrejza> well once you get soft decisions goto turbo codes
[12:33] <fsphil> yes I believe they are better, but it's a bit of a wooshy area for me atm
[12:34] <mattbrejza> first thing is to write fldigi from scratch, but noone cba
[12:34] <mattbrejza> (understandly)
[12:34] <mattbrejza> (bad spelling)
[12:34] <fsphil> I tried writing a new rtty demodulator into fldigi, but that sort of went nowhere
[12:34] <fsphil> learned a lot in the attempt though
[12:35] <mattbrejza> thats the important bit i suppose
[12:40] <fsphil> but mostly that fldigi's decoder does really quite well considering how simple it is
[12:40] <mattbrejza> does it just fft bin compare?
[12:41] <fsphil> passes it through a filter, waits for a level change (stop bit > start bit)
[12:41] <fsphil> then just counts samples until it's in the middle of the next bit
[12:41] <fsphil> >0 it's a 1, otherwise 0
[12:41] <fsphil> repeat for each bit in the byte
[12:41] <mattbrejza> well it works...
[12:42] <fsphil> very well
[12:42] <mattbrejza> needs a decent SNR, but not normally an issue
[12:45] <mattbrejza> from ir2030: 'Adjacent frequency bands within the Table may be considered as a single frequency band provided the specific conditions of each of these adjacent frequency bands are met'
[12:45] <mattbrejza> does that mean you can use the bandwidth of both and the combined power of both?
[12:45] <mattbrejza> providing the power in a band isnt too high?
[13:10] <kokey> most of the newer fec stuff like turbo codes seem to be better for much bigger blocks than the strings we send
[13:11] <kokey> some of the older stuff seems more appropriate, and simpler to implement too or at least had loads of C code floating about
[13:13] <fsphil> convolution codes are really easy to generate
[13:15] <fsphil> if I'd got my demodulator working, I was going to try and wrap the rtty bit stream with a convolutional code
[13:15] <fsphil> fldigi already has a decoder
[13:16] <kokey> oh, it has some decoders?
[13:16] <fsphil> some of the other modes use it
[13:16] <kokey> might be better than implementing something on habitat
[13:17] <kokey> then people can read it on their screens
[13:17] <fsphil> yea
[13:17] <fsphil> it would become part of the mode rather than the data to be uploaded
[13:18] <fsphil> a good version could keep decoding through a signal fade
[13:18] <fsphil> although it would take a bit longer for it to start decoding when first tuned in
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[13:24] <kokey> the crc stuff that's in dl-fldigi, I suppose one can extend dl easily?
[13:24] <kokey> though I guess that means recompiling
[13:24] <kokey> I don't feel like I want to set up a dev rig for dl-fldigi
[13:29] <fsphil> it's not to bad to build for linux
[13:29] <fsphil> osx and windows are a different matter
[13:30] <mattbrejza> the issue is when the signal is weak its only generally picked up by one, maybe two people, so some sort of DL system probably wouldnt be that effective
[13:30] <mattbrejza> its only if a payload was high up and something went wrong would it be useful
[13:30] <fsphil> actually I think that's when the dl system is most needed
[13:30] <fsphil> even if one person is getting it, the information is available to the chasers
[13:31] <Laurenceb> Knock Knock Who's there?
[13:31] <mattbrejza> yea thats when its at its most usful
[13:31] <Laurenceb> The police, your entire family died in a car accident
[13:31] <mattbrejza> but it wouldbnt be effective of a distributed error correction thing
[13:33] <fsphil> an fec might get a couple of more packets nearer the ground
[13:33] <fsphil> /get/allow decoding/
[13:34] <fsphil> that's not always important
[13:34] <fsphil> but yea it's not as useful for telemetry as it is for something like images
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[13:35] <fsphil> although it would be handy to protect the data against busrty local qrm
[13:35] <fsphil> bursty
[13:36] <mattbrejza> i suppose you could always send soft decisions to the DL server
[13:37] <fsphil> that would be an interesting project
[13:37] <fsphil> it could pick the best bits from each user
[13:37] <mattbrejza> i dont know if anyone has adapted the turbo algorithm to take LLRs from multiple recievers...
[13:37] <mattbrejza> picking the best would be the easiest method
[13:37] <mattbrejza> or just add them up
[13:38] <craag> The first thing would be to substitute anything like quotes or semicolons with a character from another string.
[13:40] <mattbrejza> if there was FEC that wouldnt be an issue
[13:40] <craag> Yep, sorry, was thinking about what could be done with the current system, it does appear to upload failed strings as well right?
[13:41] <fsphil> yea
[13:41] <mattbrejza> well with the current system it could just take votes from hard decisions
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[13:42] <mattbrejza> and be cleaver when it sees non valid ascii characters
[13:42] <fsphil> fldigi should probably mask out the upper bit in 8-bit anyway
[13:43] <mattbrejza> people should just send 7 bit...
[13:43] <fsphil> yep :)
[13:43] <fsphil> and use \n instead of \r\n
[13:45] <mattbrejza> i keep meaning to play about with a fsk decoder in matlab
[13:45] <mattbrejza> never get round to it
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[14:17] <cuddykid> excellent, Pawan are sending me another balloon foc
[14:17] <cuddykid> hopefully this one won't burst at 23km
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[14:28] <Randomskk> more chatter about telem huh
[14:29] <Randomskk> I think the other thing it'd be useful for is letting you increase the achievable bitrate
[14:29] <Randomskk> so you can send a position every second instead of every 30 seconds or more
[14:29] <Randomskk> which has incidental benefits in other areas like image transmission
[14:30] <mattbrejza> still think fldigi needs a rewrite
[14:30] <Randomskk> well volunteered etc
[14:30] <Randomskk> I'd love to do it
[14:30] <Randomskk> maybe once I retire
[14:30] <mattbrejza> i know... :(
[14:30] <mattbrejza> should have just made it my 3rd year project :P
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[14:34] <mattbrejza> Randomskk: whats your interpretation on:
[14:34] <mattbrejza> 'Adjacent frequency bands within the Table may be considered as a single frequency band provided the
[14:34] <mattbrejza> specific conditions of each of these adjacent frequency bands are met'
[14:34] <mattbrejza> wrt total transmit power?
[14:34] <Randomskk> the whole mess is a total grey area that no one will procesute for especially seeing as you're not selling devices
[14:34] <Randomskk> not dissimilar to my thoughts on just using many radios, one per channel
[14:35] <mattbrejza> define channel?
[14:35] <Randomskk> in fact identical from a black box point of view
[14:35] <Randomskk> whatever, 12.5kHz band, I think they're defined in the SRD stuff
[14:36] <mattbrejza> well 'frequency band' refers to combining 865-868 and 868-869.7
[14:36] <mattbrejza> which are two adjacent frequency bands in ir2030
[14:36] <Randomskk> I see
[14:36] <Randomskk> mm
[14:37] <mattbrejza> however on 869.4 it says consecutive channels may be combined to provide a wider BW
[14:37] <mattbrejza> each channel 25kHz (x10)
[14:37] <Randomskk> and does it say anything about power?
[14:37] <mattbrejza> but does that mean you can increase power....
[14:38] <Randomskk> you could always write to OFCOM and ask :P
[14:38] <mattbrejza> yea i was thinking that
[14:38] <mattbrejza> it says Consecutive channels may be combined where a larger bandwidth is required, due to the modulation of the signal, up to the maximum sub-band frequency allocation.
[14:39] <gonzo_> would probably get the 'yeah whatever' reply
[14:39] <mattbrejza> so nothing about power, but i would guess you cant exceed the transmit power limitation (27dBm)
[14:39] <Randomskk> mattbrejza: but that might well be 27dBm per channel
[14:39] <gonzo_> unless you consider each chan as a separate tx entity
[14:40] <mattbrejza> its not defined
[14:40] <mattbrejza> also said is 'Techniques to access spectrum and mitigate interference that provide at least equivalent performance to the techniques described in harmonised standards adopted under Directive 1999/5/EC must be used. This can include for example Listen Before Talk. Alternatively a duty cycle limit of 10 % may be used.'
[14:41] <mattbrejza> i was going for that if you combine frequency bands but keep the same power, the power per channel will be x10 less, and so reduce interference so 10% isnt needed
[14:41] <mattbrejza> i wonder what ofcom have to say on this
[14:41] <Randomskk> I would definitely consider asking
[14:42] <Randomskk> it'd be cool to try
[14:42] <mattbrejza> 3rd option is to DSSS across the 7MHz wide 863-870 band
[14:42] <Randomskk> if you used ten channels per band and two bands that's like 20 25kHz channels -> 500kHz bandwidth
[14:42] <mattbrejza> yea thers only 250kHz with decent BW
[14:42] <mattbrejza> *power
[14:42] <Randomskk> if you manage to hold 20dB SNR throughout that you're finally talking decent data rates
[14:43] <mattbrejza> well whats a relistic N0 for a reciever?
[14:43] <jonsowman> 6
[14:43] <mattbrejza> elephants?
[14:43] <jonsowman> no, pandas
[14:43] <Randomskk> like maybe 2Mbit/s
[14:43] <mattbrejza> oh ok
[14:43] <Randomskk> 3Mbit/s. depends on code
[14:43] <Randomskk> still
[14:43] <Randomskk> enough for live SD video
[14:44] <fsphil> very good SD video at that rate
[14:44] <mattbrejza> iplayer starts at 480kbps for low quality stuff
[14:44] <Randomskk> SD TV with MPEG-2 is 3.5Mbit/s
[14:45] <Randomskk> but yea you can do better
[14:45] <fsphil> h.264 would do much better
[14:45] <Randomskk> yea
[14:45] <fsphil> not sure how it would handle errors, but I'm sure that's all been sorted in DVB
[14:45] <mattbrejza> so next qn is could a rpi encode h.264?
[14:45] <Randomskk> yea
[14:45] <fsphil> it has a hardware encoder
[14:45] <Randomskk> it has hardware for doing that
[14:45] <mattbrejza> sorte
[14:45] <mattbrejza> d
[14:46] <Randomskk> I think you're a long way from "sorted"
[14:46] <Randomskk> fsphil: DVB is such a nightmare
[14:46] <fsphil> yea I'd not touch it
[14:46] <Randomskk> but yea you'd probably consider doing it
[14:46] <mattbrejza> use dvt-s anyway
[14:46] <Randomskk> maybe CVB-S
[14:46] <Randomskk> ugh
[14:46] <fsphil> dvb-s yea
[14:46] <Randomskk> DVB-S *
[14:46] <fsphil> that's just PSK isn't it?
[14:46] <Randomskk> because otherwise urgh
[14:46] <Randomskk> kinda
[14:46] <mattbrejza> ldpc fec
[14:46] <mattbrejza> 32400 block length
[14:46] <Randomskk> it can be a lot of things
[14:46] <Randomskk> and "just"£ P[B[B[Band "just" PSK is a bit misleading
[14:46] <Randomskk> ugh
[14:47] <Randomskk> ignore ssh mess
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[14:47] <mattbrejza> Darkside: any idea for a realistic N0 for a dvbt dongle?
[14:48] <mattbrejza> hes probably most likely to know
[14:49] <Laurenceb> its ofdm
[14:50] <Laurenceb> with large constellation
[14:50] <Randomskk> dvb-t is ofdm, is dvb-s?
[14:51] <mattbrejza> probably not
[14:51] <fsphil> I don't think it is
[14:51] <Laurenceb> oh nvm
[14:51] <Laurenceb> i wasnt reading
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[14:52] <Randomskk> I think DVB-S is most commonly QPSK with a single carrier and a huge constellation and symbol rate
[14:52] <Randomskk> but DVB-S2 makes it hugely flexible and can again be basically anything
[14:53] <mattbrejza> also you could just use a standard DVB-s2 reciever...?
[14:54] <mattbrejza> if it can actually be basically anything
[14:55] <Randomskk> maaaaybe
[14:55] <Randomskk> if you did the frontend
[14:55] <mattbrejza> oh do these things expect to be connected to a downconverter?
[14:56] <jonsowman> rm -f timetable.txt
[14:56] <jonsowman> aah
[14:56] <jonsowman> :)
[14:56] <fsphil> Are you sure? (Y/N)
[14:56] <jonsowman> (Y/N/damn right)
[14:56] <jonsowman> okay, bbl
[14:56] <Randomskk> mattbrejza: not sure but they expect satellite band incoming radio signals :P
[14:57] <mattbrejza> yea 900MHz is almost satellite right?
[14:57] <fsphil> satellite receivers expect the signal at about 1.2ghz
[14:57] <mattbrejza> close enough
[14:57] <fsphil> the lnb downconverts that from 10-12ghz
[14:57] <mattbrejza> oh right
[14:59] <fsphil> actually the IF range is 950-2150mhz
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[15:00] <fsphil> the 23cm amateur band sits at 1.2ghz, these receivers can be used without any modification
[15:05] <mattbrejza> nothing ISM at 1.2 :(
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[15:46] <Laurenceb> http://abusemark.com/store/images/stm32_dev.jpg
[15:46] <Laurenceb> heh
[15:48] <Randomskk> I assume that's yours?
[15:48] <griffonbot> Received email: Tomasz Brol "Re: [UKHAS] Re: Launch annoucement SP9UOB-2"
[15:49] <Laurenceb> nope
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[16:03] <Laurenceb> http://bin.jvnv.net/f/xlA5N.JPG
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[16:14] <Willdude123> Hello.
[16:16] <Willdude123> Why is RTTY used for transmitting GPS data?
[16:16] <Randomskk> that's a fairly broad question
[16:16] <Randomskk> some reasons include it is very, very simple
[16:17] <Randomskk> and that there are a lot of people equipped to receive it
[16:17] <Randomskk> other reasons are that it was used on the first flight and has been used since for reasons of history and tradition
[16:17] <kokey> because it's easy to implement on the payload side, and easy to get volunteers to receive it
[16:17] <Randomskk> and also that it works well enough for our purposes
[16:18] <Willdude123> OK.
[16:20] <Willdude123> Is there a lot of code needed for RTTY encoding? Does it work well on arduino?
[16:20] <Randomskk> not a lot of code needed. very easy to do on arduino.
[16:20] <kokey> yeah I implemented it on arduino over the past week, was easy with the examples out there
[16:20] <Randomskk> it's probably the single easiest way you could do this.
[16:21] <Randomskk> and that is about the only thing going for it really.
[16:21] <Randomskk> but hey, it's what we use, so it's what you'll use :P
[16:21] <kokey> I suspect it's easier on the NTX2 than on the RFM22b?
[16:21] <Randomskk> mreh
[16:21] <Randomskk> yea probs
[16:22] <Willdude123> Could someone transmit pictures via radio, if it was digital?
[16:22] <Randomskk> it's been done. digital and analogue.
[16:22] <Randomskk> it's very slow and a lot more advanced than GPS telemetry.
[16:23] <eroomde> Willdude123: you might benefit from having a read around on the wiki for a bit
[16:23] <Willdude123> Yeah, I've been reading that.
[16:23] <kokey> yeah 320x240 images, works
[16:24] <kokey> more of an issue is finding cheap ways to capture images
[16:24] <eroomde> Willdude123: this for example
[16:24] <eroomde> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:ssdv
[16:24] <Willdude123> Must be hard though, how do you connect a camera to a microcontroller?
[16:24] <eroomde> answers your question
[16:24] <kokey> arduino camera modules are either expensive or rubbish or both
[16:24] <eroomde> so my point is, if you read the wiki a little more, you can get answers to your questions
[16:24] <kokey> and using webcams or cameras from mobile phones, or even capturing from compact digital cameras, is pretty hard
[16:25] <Willdude123> So how did you do it?
[16:25] <Randomskk> see the wiki link eroomde posted.
[16:25] <eroomde> typing gives us rsi
[16:26] <eroomde> think of our fingers
[16:26] <eroomde> we'll happily answer all your questions provided you've put in a little research effort on your part first
[16:26] <Willdude123> My apologies, I should have looked at the wiki.
[16:27] <eroomde> no it's ok, it's there are as you can probably appreciate 1001 questions people want to ask when they see what is an awesome hobby like this one
[16:27] <eroomde> and the wiki is basically the collection of the most complete, well written answers
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[16:29] <Willdude123> I'll get an arduino and come back to this channel in a year or so maybe.
[16:30] <Randomskk> that's probably a bit pessimistic!
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[16:31] <Willdude123> Well, I'm a slow learner.
[16:31] Willdude123 (Willdude1@wikipedia/W-D) left #highaltitude ("Congrats Jimmmy!").
[16:31] <eroomde> too much?
[16:32] <Randomskk> wouldn't have thought so
[16:33] <eroomde> well, as long as he realises he has work to do
[16:34] <Randomskk> yup.
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[17:01] <SpeedEvil> https://www.youtube.com I /watch?v=4IyaG1crWxg&feature=youtube_gdata_player
[17:01] <SpeedEvil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IyaG1crWxg&feature=youtube_gdata_player
[17:01] <SpeedEvil> I suppose somebody's linked this
[17:06] <cuddykid> lol
[17:07] <cuddykid> wonder if we could recreate something small "jumping" from that alt - it would be an absolute nightmare to try and film though
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[17:09] <DrLuke> cuddykid: try steadily filming the balloon in the first place
[17:09] <cuddykid> yep
[17:09] <SpeedEvil> :-)
[17:12] <DrLuke> it actually would be a nice test for antenna-trackers
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[17:13] <SpeedEvil> you mean live video?
[17:18] <john______> if i wanted a remote video, would i be capable, and what transmission equipment should i look into
[17:20] Action: eroomde is reading a book he sespects to be written for engineers, by an engineer
[17:20] <eroomde> "With this figure (which of course varies from process to process) a 50x50um area gives you all of 5pF, easily be the most expensive component in your chip. If you specify anything greater than 100pF, your colleagues may think you have a degree in macroeconomics."
[17:20] <SpeedEvil> :-)
[17:21] <eroomde> john______: let's rewind
[17:21] <eroomde> where are you in the world
[17:21] <eroomde> ?
[17:21] <john______> london
[17:21] <eroomde> right
[17:21] <eroomde> so first, move abroad
[17:21] <eroomde> then it's possible
[17:21] <eroomde> in the uk, it's not possible
[17:21] <eroomde> all the above is assuming you're amateur working within the rules
[17:22] <john______> haha, so costs are really high, or legally impossible
[17:22] <eroomde> legality
[17:22] <eroomde> of maximum power levels and bandwidths - they basically don't allow anything airborne
[17:22] <john______> so i have to use the specified 434...Mhz
[17:22] <eroomde> however, if you really want to do this and have the technical chops to answer thier questions, it's possible to apply for experimental temporary licenses
[17:23] <eroomde> well, 434mhz allows you 10mW
[17:23] <eroomde> and limited bandwidth
[17:23] <eroomde> neither enough for live video
[17:23] <john______> ok
[17:24] <eroomde> the state of the art in ukhas atm is basically a thumbnail sent over a couple of minutes
[17:24] <eroomde> well, 320 x 240
[17:25] <cuddykid> at the cutting edge here
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[17:25] <eroomde> but, with the right permissions it's quite easy - buying off the shelf stuff
[17:25] <eroomde> but no one has got such permissions to my knowledge yet
[17:25] <eroomde> for amateur stuff
[17:26] <cuddykid> I guess you need a good reason/company backing
[17:26] <eroomde> probably just the good reason
[17:26] <eroomde> you wanna do a bumgardner john______ ?
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[17:28] <cuddykid> there is another possibility - using big wifi dishes and amplifiers - may work possible
[17:28] <eroomde> maybe he took that as an unwanted proposition
[17:28] <cuddykid> lol
[17:28] <eroomde> cuddykid: bandwidth
[17:28] <cuddykid> yeah
[17:28] <cuddykid> might work well for the initial part of flight?
[17:28] <eroomde> no
[17:29] <eroomde> it's not about power
[17:29] <eroomde> to send video, you need several Mhz of bandwidth
[17:29] <cuddykid> ah
[17:29] <eroomde> you are not allowed to use, say, all of 434-436Mhz all at once
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[17:30] <mfa298> I had a feeling someone did the calcs on 2.4Ghz and it might just work with the 100mW allowed but then you need the batteries to run it all.
[17:30] <eroomde> i'm sure if u flew wifi u wouldn't upset anyone though
[17:30] <eroomde> no one would know or care
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[17:36] <mfa298> Dropbox attempted something along the wifi lines and had success for a few minutes. https://blog.dropbox.com/index.php/dropbox-in-space/
[17:38] <cuddykid> that was it, trying to think who had attempted it before
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[17:43] <mfa298> althoguh reading bits of ir2030 im not sure how legal it is. I think the wifi 100mW bit is in "Short Range Indoor Data Links"
[17:43] <Toast__> Anyone around that I could toss a couple of questions at?
[17:43] <cuddykid> yeah, but I doubt anyone would pick it up
[17:44] <cuddykid> Toast__: go for it
[17:44] <mfa298> Although you can use part of 2.4 GHz for airbourne video links but 10mW but up to 20Mhz Bandwidth
[17:44] <cuddykid> mfa298: label it "BTHomeHub blah blah" or something like that then you're set :P
[17:44] <Toast__> Sorry if I'm interrupting something already in progress. I can wait if you would prefer
[17:44] <fsphil> just a question of antennas :)
[17:44] <cuddykid> Toast__: it's a free for all :) post at anytime!
[17:45] <mfa298> Toast__: feel free to ask away.
[17:45] <fsphil> why yes I would like some toast
[17:47] <Toast__> Cool thank you, a friend and I are looking to build a photo ballon capable of reaching 80k ft to 100k ft autonomously, the idea being that it ascends and then descends and transmits its landing coordinates via text message . Is that a feasible idea given
[17:47] <cuddykid> yep
[17:47] <cuddykid> we all do similar projects here
[17:48] <cuddykid> where are you located Toast__ ?
[17:48] <Toast__> Sorry u accidentally sent that too early, I was going to add with a arguing r3
[17:48] <Toast__> I*
[17:48] <Toast__> And I'm in the US
[17:48] <cuddykid> arduino?
[17:49] <Toast__> and curse auto corrects, yes I meant an arduino
[17:49] <cuddykid> :)
[17:49] <cuddykid> yep, all possible
[17:49] <cuddykid> been on the UKHAS wiki yet?
[17:49] <cuddykid> lots of good info there
[17:49] <cuddykid> http://ukhas.org.uk/
[17:49] <Toast__> I have been on there a lot and my primary concern is the programming
[17:50] <cuddykid> don't be afraid - there is a lot of code out there to learn from
[17:50] <cuddykid> it's not that hard either, it's fun too
[17:50] <cuddykid> though can be frustrating at times
[17:50] <Toast__> I'm sure it is :)
[17:51] <Toast__> That answers my concern for now, I'm sure I will be on asking plenty of questions in the future, many thanks
[17:51] <cuddykid> get yourself an arduino uno if you haven't already
[17:51] <cuddykid> and play around with it
[17:51] <cuddykid> no probs
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[18:03] <john______> if i use a 2.4Ghz wireless transmitter is it legal
[18:04] <fsphil> depends what you're using it for :)
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[18:04] <john______> send live camera shots
[18:04] <fsphil> it's not likely to work on a payload, the power levels are just too low
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[18:05] <fsphil> but yes it is legal, so long as you only transmit at 10mw and have a basic antenna
[18:05] <fsphil> which basically makes it useless
[18:05] <john______> i see
[18:06] <fsphil> you would need a really large antenna on the ground
[18:06] <fsphil> and a very good aim
[18:07] <fsphil> the closest we've got to live video are pictures every few minutes
[18:09] <john______> so i could get pictures every few minutes
[18:09] <fsphil> tiny pictures yea
[18:09] <fsphil> and by few minutes I mean five :)
[18:10] <john______> what do you think of using FLYCAM1
[18:10] <fsphil> not heard of that
[18:10] <john______> or flycamone
[18:11] <john______> similar to goPro, cheaper solution
[18:11] <fsphil> that's not live though
[18:12] <john______> yeh, i meant its capabilities in high altitude
[18:12] <fsphil> I don't recall any being used
[18:13] <john______> which video/cameras options do you think are good
[18:14] <fsphil> well I like the gopro, but it depends on how much you're willing to spend and risk
[18:15] <jcoxon> evening all
[18:15] <fsphil> hullo jcoxon
[18:15] <fsphil> how goes it?
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[18:16] <jcoxon> not bad thanks
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[18:18] <fsphil> that flycam1 has the same sort of picture as those chinese keyring cameras
[18:19] <eroomde> too late
[18:19] <fsphil> oh I know, but was just watching some videos of it
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[18:28] <m0psi> hi all, having trouble running DL-fldigi. The normal version of fldigi works ok, but DL version creashes reporting the following error:
[18:29] <m0psi> Dyld Error Message:
[18:29] <m0psi> Library not loaded: /usr/lib/libltdl.3.dylib
[18:29] <m0psi> Referenced from: /Applications/Fldigi/dl-fldigi.app/Contents/MacOS/../Frameworks/libhamlib.2.dylib
[18:29] <m0psi> Reason: image not found
[18:29] <m0psi> I'm running a mac os-x 10.7.5
[18:29] <m0psi> any help/ideas appreciated
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[18:31] <RG-lz1dev> theres a Yaesu FT-790R MK2 on the UK ebay
[18:34] <Randomskk> m0psi: what did you download
[18:34] <Randomskk> read the download instructions carefully
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[18:42] <m0psi> randomskk: I got it from here http://ukhas.org.uk/projects:dl-fldigi, and I got the one relevant to my os version
[18:42] <m0psi> i got the binary
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[18:43] <Randomskk> m0psi: the .dmg file?
[18:43] <m0psi> y
[18:43] <m0psi> the zip one, which became a dmg
[18:43] <Randomskk> uhm
[18:43] <Randomskk> the zip doesn't become a dmg
[18:43] <m0psi> erm, hang on ...
[18:44] <m0psi> right, it has the binary and a script
[18:44] <Randomskk> that sounds like the dmg?
[18:44] <Randomskk> the zip doesn't have a script
[18:44] <Randomskk> anyway just grab http://habhub.org/files/dl-fldigi/dl-fldigi-DL3.0-macosx-8714c31-d829548.zip
[18:44] <m0psi> ok, i'll do it again from start ...
[18:44] <Randomskk> open the zip and run what's inside (and make super sure that's what you're running)
[18:44] <Randomskk> and see if you still get the error
[18:44] <Randomskk> basically that error is exactly what I'd expect if you got the .dmg
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[18:45] <Randomskk> and would be a huge surprise if you'd got the zip
[18:45] <Randomskk> and you wouldn't be the first person to accidentally get the dmg instead
[18:46] <m0psi> ok, working BUT
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[18:47] <m0psi> i did get this one working earlier, in fact i still have the zip in the download folder
[18:47] <m0psi> and, it crashed after a while
[18:47] <m0psi> consistantly
[18:47] <Randomskk> yea the "it crashes after a while" is basically a known bug
[18:47] <Randomskk> on all OS versions
[18:47] <Randomskk> and not immediately apparently our fault either
[18:47] <Randomskk> it's somewhat hard to say
[18:48] <m0psi> ok, thanks god for that! :-) NOT!
[18:48] <m0psi> ok
[18:48] <m0psi> is this being worked on?
[18:49] <m0psi> how is the tracking data uploaded to habitat reliably if this crashes after a while, do people just run in it again?
[18:49] <Randomskk> yes
[18:49] <Randomskk> and, yes
[18:49] <m0psi> cool
[18:50] <m0psi> anything i can do in terms of providing debug reports, let me know
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[18:52] <m0psi> so, how come the data on the tracker seems to be continuous, with no breaks. Is it because the server agregates all the recievers, so if some fall out, the tracker still shows the continuous data?
[18:53] <Randomskk> it doesn't crash very often
[18:53] <Randomskk> and yes, the server does aggregate all receivers
[18:53] <m0psi> effectivly relying on several Rx to patch the cracks
[18:53] <Randomskk> but like
[18:53] <Randomskk> for most people I don't think it crashes at all during a flight typically
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[18:54] <m0psi> hmm, i just ran it again, and it crashed just now, since I said it is working
[18:54] <m0psi> so, only a few minutes.
[18:54] <Randomskk> that is unusually crashy
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[18:55] <m0psi> ok, I'm running lion
[18:57] <Randomskk> maybe there are other things you're running or something else is weird
[18:57] <m0psi> y, could be. i will try it after a clean restart
[18:57] <m0psi> and see how that goes
[18:58] <m0psi> otherwise, quite messy trying to go down that road
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[18:59] <costyn> fsphil: did you see the helmet cam footage yet from Felix' jump?
[18:59] <fsphil> only a little bit
[19:00] <costyn> fsphil: http://iloveskydiving.org/view/videos/red-bull-stratos-raw-headcam-footage-of-supersonic-skydive/#.UHxcpGlsN4E
[19:00] <costyn> gets into some serious backspin at one point
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[19:03] <fsphil> ooch
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[19:04] <fsphil> he got out of it really quickly
[19:05] <costyn> yea, balling up it seems like
[19:05] <costyn> you see his hands come into view
[19:10] <fsphil> he had a great landing
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[19:21] <x-f> hey, guys, when i try to upload a new sketch to my arduino, avrdude says: "verification error, first mismatch at byte 0x0506 0x0e != 0xff content mismatch"
[19:21] <x-f> sometimes it gets uploaded with no errors, but fails if i change the code a bit
[19:22] <x-f> any clues why is that and what to do?
[19:22] <kokey> weird
[19:24] <x-f> we suspected a faulty atmega, so my friend soldered a new one in its place, but now i start to get the same symptoms
[19:27] <cuddykid> I get that sometimes
[19:27] <cuddykid> not sure why - just keep trying, usually works soon with me I think
[19:30] <x-f> ok
[19:31] <x-f> now that you said that i tried once more and it uploaded with no problems
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[19:31] <x-f> :|
[19:35] <x-f> makes no sense, it works now, but failed like ten times in a row before.
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[19:36] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[19:36] <x-f> hi
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[19:42] <DrLuke> x-f: do you have anything connected to the arduino
[19:42] <DrLuke> like on the serial pins
[19:43] <DrLuke> if so try removing it
[19:43] <x-f> DrLuke, no, i disconnected everything
[19:43] <DrLuke> it also may be a loose usb plug
[19:43] <DrLuke> try another usb cable
[19:43] <x-f> ok, will try
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[20:15] Action: kokey sets up 762 ipv4 addresses
[20:16] <fsphil> 192.168.... :)
[20:16] <Lunar_Lander> XD!
[20:17] <kokey> no, public ones
[20:17] <fsphil> I've 16 and I'm happy :)
[20:18] <kokey> 16 is a good number
[20:19] <fsphil> and somewhat more v6 addresses
[20:22] <Lunar_Lander> there is a radio host in germany who says that Felix's Jump was absurd
[20:23] <Lunar_Lander> I wrote him a rather lenghty reply about kittinger, excelsior and how formula 1 is even more without reason
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[20:26] <x-f> Lunar, imo, Kittinger's jumps were really useful in that time, but Baumgartner's now was just an expensive show with no added value
[20:26] <x-f> at least i can't see any..
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[20:26] <x-f> it was cool, yes, but that's in my opinion is all
[20:31] <kokey> well it was a shame that no one jumped from higher for decades, so for that reason I'm glad Felix did it
[20:32] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[20:33] <Upu> imagine if Brian Cox had done that jump Lunar_Lander :)
[20:33] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[20:33] <Lunar_Lander> well first the BBC would have to pay for it
[20:33] <Lunar_Lander> :D
[20:33] <Upu> yep
[20:34] <Upu> technically it would be me paying but there you go
[20:34] <Lunar_Lander> oh
[20:34] <Lunar_Lander> well yeah anything done by german TV ARD and ZDF is also payed by the public
[20:34] <fsphil> worth it I think
[20:36] <Upu> I only watch Ray Mears and Top gear but £120 a year well spent
[20:36] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[20:36] <Lunar_Lander> I also like the "Planets" series from 1999
[20:37] <Lunar_Lander> which they remastered in 2007 I think
[20:39] <mclane> Hi, how does approval of flight documents work?
[20:39] <mclane> in habitat?
[20:40] <Upu> one of the team approve it
[20:40] <Upu> however if you submit it
[20:41] <Upu> it will work immediately
[20:41] <Upu> just won't appear on the list of flights for a specific date and time
[20:41] <Upu> something like that anyway :)
[20:42] <Upu> PYSY ?
[20:42] <mclane> yes
[20:42] <Upu> [2012-10-15 20:41:21,529] DEBUG habitat.parser MainThread: Exception in UKHAS main parse: (field latitude): could not convert string to float:
[20:42] <Upu> [2012-10-15 20:41:21,469] INFO habitat.parser MainThread: Parsing [ascii] '$$PYSY,34,20:41:06,49.04354,11.92106,469,7,6181, 23.4, 23.4*8CAA\n' (9f7152aae2c0a068bc0340e7ab48a53b924cbee1b869b4914bae1cb37947760b) from PYSYGroundFix
[20:42] <Upu> [2012-10-15 20:41:02,385] INFO habitat.parser MainThread: All attempts to parse failed
[20:42] <Upu> -->field latitude<--
[20:43] <mclane> ok I will check
[20:43] <Upu> thats here : http://habitat.habhub.org/logtail/ for information
[20:44] <Lunar_Lander> hi mclane, how are you?
[20:44] <mclane> working on the last modifications for our launch
[20:45] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[20:45] <kokey> too bad I lost my bbc redux access
[20:45] <Lunar_Lander> mclane, you know Domian?
[20:45] <kokey> I listen to a lot of radio 4 today programme, so I guess that's what I use my license for
[20:45] <Lunar_Lander> the radio host with the talk show on WDR
[20:46] <mclane> Lunar_Lander: no
[20:46] <Lunar_Lander> ah ok
[20:46] <Lunar_Lander> he wrote on facebook that Felix's jump was absurd
[20:49] <mclane> how can I delete payload config docs?
[20:49] <Upu> you can't just make a new one
[20:50] <Upu> newer ones take preference over older ones
[20:50] <mclane> maybe someone can just delete all the PYSY stuff
[20:50] <mclane> before I create a new one
[20:50] <Upu> just make a new one
[20:50] <Upu> it will over ride the old one
[20:54] <mclane> ok, the new valid one has a doc id dbecda1dec8931a00e43e4d9cf05dbbd; all the rest can be deleted
[20:57] <Upu> you want that one approving ?
[20:59] <mclane> yes please - there is a flight named PYSY - 2 which is our planned flight on saturday using this payload
[21:00] <Upu> ok I've requested it a member of the Habhub team will have to do that for you
[21:01] <Upu> right dog walk time bbs
[21:01] <mclane> thanks upu
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[21:15] <fsphil> dog needs walked, but on the other hand it's pouncing outside.
[21:15] <fsphil> hmmm
[21:15] <Upu> just cold here
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[21:16] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[21:19] <fsphil> not stopping anytime soon according to raintoday
[21:19] <fsphil> ah well, better get a hat :)
[21:28] <eroomde> hellloooo
[21:28] <eroomde> i lost 4 badminton games in a row
[21:28] <eroomde> on fire tonight
[21:30] <jonsowman> harsh but fair
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[00:00] --- Tue Oct 16 2012