highaltitude.log.20121009

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[01:56] <CanadaWest> All you UKers are probably sleeping right now.
[01:58] <CanadaWest> 3am there...
[01:59] <CanadaWest> Well, I just wanted to say hello again, and thanks to those who got me started with your Wiki.
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[02:33] <SpeedEvil> CanadaWest: :-)
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[04:10] <CanadaWest> Hi
[04:10] <CanadaWest> Sorry, was AFK. Watching your HAS2012 conference on YouTube....
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[05:36] <Lunar_Lander> good morning
[05:36] <Lunar_Lander> the radio works now with ubuntu and dl-fldigi
[05:37] <x-f> good morning with good news then
[05:37] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[05:38] <Lunar_Lander> and if the physics exam on thursday works well, I can continue on the balloon
[05:39] <x-f> still a lot of work to do or are you approaching the flight readiness state?
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[05:44] <x-f> Red Bull's Baumgartner is going to jump today, launch scheduled for 12 GMT - http://www.youtube.com/user/redbull/stratos (not that i approve this performance)
[05:44] <Darkside> lots of helium wasted there
[05:45] <Darkside> though its probably not safe to use hydrogen in a ZP
[05:46] <x-f> but from the other hand - is it safe to step out of the vehicle at 30 km altitude?
[05:46] <Darkside> with a spacesuit, sure
[05:46] <Darkside> or some form of pressure suit
[05:46] <Darkside> if the suit fails, well of course that's going to be bad
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[05:58] <Lunar_Lander> on NDR2 radio they discussed it too
[05:58] <Lunar_Lander> I was so happy that they said it was a helium balloon
[05:58] <Lunar_Lander> often they confuse helium and hot air in the media
[05:58] <Darkside> heh
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[07:25] <cuddykid> the GoPro's wind angle lens is crazy - end up cutting away most of the payload wall to avoid seeing it
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[07:54] <russss> so the Orbcomm sat didn't go into the right orbit because there wasn't enough propellant left: http://www.spaceflightnow.com/falcon9/004/121008orbcomm/
[07:58] <eroomde> interesting
[07:58] <eroomde> russss: booked for that oxford talk
[07:58] <eroomde> there's a small rel contingent going now, by the looks of it
[07:58] <russss> cool
[08:02] <eroomde> giggity
[08:02] <eroomde> if they've only got it at a 200k orbit, they need to think fast
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[08:34] <griffonbot> Received email: Steve Aerospace "Re: [UKHAS] Launch Announcement - XABEN 35"
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[09:11] <griffonbot> Received email: Jon Sowman "[UKHAS] Launch Announcement - CUSF - Thursday 11th Oct"
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[10:35] <Laurenceb> according to slashdot the falcon9 engine didnt explode
[10:36] <Laurenceb> the fairing was badly damaged by switch off transients
[10:36] <Laurenceb> not sure i believe that
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[10:42] <fsphil> I've read that elsewhere
[10:42] <Laurenceb> it kind of makes sense
[10:43] <Laurenceb> if it turned off very quickly at max q and was a central engine
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[10:52] <griffonbot> Received email: chris hillcox "[UKHAS] Odd Box"
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[10:57] <costyn> Upu still not online? wasn't yesterday either when I checked. vacation?
[10:59] <MrScienceMan> yeh
[10:59] <MrScienceMan> for a week afrair
[11:01] <kokey> my car's engine exploded
[11:02] <kokey> inside of the cylinders
[11:02] <kokey> all 6 of them, about 333 times per second
[11:02] <zyp> that's how car engines work.
[11:02] <kokey> fortunately it was designed to handle that
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[11:33] <Laurenceb> http://i.imgur.com/yGiOW.jpg
[11:37] <russss> I find it hilarious how many people are still arguing the definition of "explode". It's so meaningless.
[11:38] <NigelMoby> my definition is kaboom...
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[11:40] <X-Scale> Today is a great day :) http://youtu.be/vkJ5ItzEq3M
[11:42] <mfa298> NigelMoby: do you mean something like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2olLDv2P9AI
[11:42] <eroomde> X-Scale: thanks for link
[11:42] <eroomde> fun
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[11:46] <X-Scale> eroomde: no problem...if it all goes well, it's going to be an impressive live transmission
[11:47] <cuddykid> should be good
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[12:07] <eroomde> X-Scale: on weather hold
[12:09] <Laurenceb> wtf are those things in the sky?
[12:09] <Laurenceb> techered balloons?
[12:12] <x-f> heh, 13:30 "PM" :>
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[12:15] <jarod> x-f for those dumb americans? :/
[12:17] <stilldavid> I blame the javascript programmer
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[12:26] <eroomde> the sunrise is pretty though
[12:28] <jarod> :)
[12:29] <craag> Is that the capsule still on the ground then?
[12:30] <fsphil> yea
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[12:31] <russss> they're launching no earlier than...now
[12:31] <Lunar_LanderU> hello
[12:31] <Lunar_LanderU> the red bull stratos website doesn't load xD
[12:31] <russss> the weather there looks lovely
[12:32] <jarod> audio!
[12:32] <Lunar_LanderU> well I just read they will have to wait for an hour for the wind at the balloon top to calm
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[12:40] <russss> has their time conversion changed?
[12:40] <russss> ah wait no, my brain is faulty.
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[12:51] <eroomde> anyone who follows these things know if hdd prices are getting back to normal?
[12:51] <Lunar_LanderU> good question
[12:51] <Lunar_LanderU> I hope so after they rebuilt the factories
[12:52] <Lunar_LanderU> would be bad if they'd try to phase them out for SSDs now
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[12:52] <eroomde> we need a big nas at work now, want to put a machine together
[12:52] <chris_99> yeah i think they're pretty good value again now, i bought a 3TB for £120 a few months ago, but i think it's even cheaper now
[12:52] <eroomde> ok good
[12:52] <Lunar_LanderU> I remember getting 500 GB for just 30 euros back before the flood made the prices to race up
[12:53] <Lunar_LanderU> I think the same HDD (Samsung Spinpoint F3) then suddenly was over 100 euro
[12:53] <eroomde> i reckon 10TB of usable storage should see us through for a while
[12:53] <eroomde> what the works out to in drives once you factor in raid and offsite backup, i don;t know
[12:54] <eroomde> i guess about 25TB
[12:54] <Lunar_LanderU> but it showed how dependent we are about our factories
[12:59] <fsphil> I got an ssd during that time
[12:59] <fsphil> glad I did
[12:59] <fsphil> although for big storage it's definitely not an option
[12:59] <Lunar_LanderU> what size and how much did it cost?
[13:00] <Lunar_LanderU> and don't they decay pretty fast?
[13:00] <fsphil> can't remember the price now, but 60Gb
[13:00] <fsphil> nah
[13:00] <fsphil> still running
[13:00] <Lunar_LanderU> yea
[13:00] <fsphil> it's already outlasted a few of my regular HDDs
[13:01] <Lunar_LanderU> I mean I heard if you would try to defrag a SSD, that could damage it
[13:01] <fsphil> it would slow it down
[13:01] <Lunar_LanderU> yea
[13:01] <Lunar_LanderU> well
[13:01] <Lunar_LanderU> probably be back later
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[13:05] <SAIDias> Hello World
[13:05] Nick change: SAIDias -> W0OTM
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[13:07] <fsphil> hi there person
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[13:37] <cuddykid> that's annoying
[13:37] <cuddykid> pushed back to 17:30 earliest
[13:37] <cuddykid> felix must be pooing himself
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[13:47] <eroomde> fertiliser for his bumgarden
[13:51] <chris_99> this looks fun http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2215104/Before-fall-Last-minute-delay-extreme-skydiver-Fearless-Felix-23-mile-jump-Earth.html?ito=feeds-newsxml
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[14:06] <SpeedEvil> he's really overcompensating for the teasing he underwent due to the name.
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[14:20] <G7PMO_Kev> Guys, can anyone answer a HabHub questions for me?
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[14:21] <G7PMO_Kev> The genpayload script requires you to setup a filter to identify when your string should be passed to the map
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[14:21] <G7PMO_Kev> my filter is: {filter:common.invalid_gps_lock,type:normal,ok:[4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20],source:satellites}
[14:22] <G7PMO_Kev> will that work, and can I see it working in the parser - without having to wait till I generate a flight doc for a real flight?
[14:26] <kokey> I suppose DanielRichman or Randomskk can help
[14:26] <kokey> if I remember correctly
[14:27] <DanielRichman> yes, that looks ok. You may find having a separate gps status field 1 or 0 easier though.
[14:28] <DanielRichman> re: flight doc. All stuff is parsed the same (talking payload configuration docs)
[14:28] <DanielRichman> the existance of a flight doc has a few relevant effects (relevant to your Q(:
[14:28] <DanielRichman> - they get priority
[14:29] <G7PMO_Kev> Thanks Daniel,
[14:29] <DanielRichman> - the data is marked as from a flight (currently has no effect)
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[14:30] <G7PMO_Kev> Daniel the filtering stuff looks great, ddnt really understand it until I generated my first payload config doc,
[14:30] <G7PMO_Kev> but I can see the power of it now...
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[14:31] <DanielRichman> :-). It was a bit difficult to pick something that's does all you want & future things you might want, and is easy to use, and doesn't let people execute arbitrary code on our server...
[14:31] <DanielRichman> but it turned out pretty good
[14:33] <SamSilver> quite a bit of action on here at the moment http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkJ5ItzEq3M&feature=youtu.be
[14:35] <MrScienceMan> damn did you see that?
[14:39] <SamSilver> MrScienceMan: what?
[14:39] <MrScienceMan> you missed it man
[14:39] <MrScienceMan> keep watching
[14:40] <SamSilver> lol
[14:41] <stilldavid> people totally keep walking back and forth in front of the camera.
[14:41] <stilldavid> it's intense, man.
[14:41] <MrScienceMan> i know
[14:41] <MrScienceMan> right
[14:41] <G7PMO_Kev> DanielRichman - just found my tracker on spacenear.us, I assumed it wouldn't be there, but you said 'marked as from a flight (currently has no effect)' - ie with out a flight doc it still shows up :)
[14:41] <SamSilver> the launch truck and the payload carrying vehicle were on eariler
[14:41] <SamSilver> lol
[14:42] <DanielRichman> G7PMO_Kev: yes. What I mean is
[14:42] <DanielRichman> something that discriminates based on whether a sentences is marked as from a flight does not yet exist
[14:42] <DanielRichman> eventual plan:
[14:42] <DanielRichman> spacenear.us/tracker/ and spacenear.us/tracker?testing
[14:42] <G7PMO_Kev> yup,
[14:42] <DanielRichman> ^ from a flight goes here ^ everything else
[14:43] <DanielRichman> that doesn't happen yet
[14:44] <G7PMO_Kev> DanielRichman - is the 'export payload telemetry' something realtivly easy to get back working?
[14:44] <G7PMO_Kev> or is there another way to get it?
[14:44] <DanielRichman> yes and no, and yes and no
[14:45] <DanielRichman> respectively
[14:45] <DanielRichman> uh
[14:45] <G7PMO_Kev> :)
[14:45] <DanielRichman> baaasically
[14:45] <DanielRichman> if you want your telemetry highlight me or Randomskk and I'll go get it (manually)
[14:45] <DanielRichman> the delay on ept is that it needs a new GUI for the new database layout
[14:45] <G7PMO_Kev> otherwise I see myself rigging up a tcpdump -a for when I get a real flight going :)
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[14:46] <Randomskk> G7PMO_Kev: it's easy to just get at your telemetry
[14:46] <Randomskk> there's a single URL
[14:46] <Randomskk> but the web interface is not yet working
[14:46] <G7PMO_Kev> does the single url work now? Would be usefull for my testing...
[14:47] <Randomskk> for testing I'd probably just check logtail
[14:48] <Randomskk> but, yes - all you need is the payload document ID
[14:48] <Randomskk> http://habitat.habhub.org/habitat/_design/payload_telemetry/_view/payload_time?startkey=["5aa596c3bee39b1a612962778dc0f16e"]&include_docs=true
[14:48] <number10> Randomskk: are you still looking for ~100m cat 5?
[14:49] <Randomskk> replace that 5aa596... with your ID
[14:49] <Randomskk> number10: nope, that was quite a while ago :P
[14:49] <Randomskk> picked up 50m in the end and it worked fine
[14:49] <number10> ok np
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[14:57] <fsphil> NigelMoby is after some more cats
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[15:04] <stilldavid> laying out the balloon!
[15:05] <fsphil> eeeee
[15:06] <Randomskk> oh god. I should check wombat actually works for thursday's flight
[15:06] <Randomskk> mreh
[15:06] <Randomskk> it worked last time I tried it. I think.
[15:06] <fsphil> please don't do a Tim
[15:06] <Randomskk> did it...
[15:06] <Randomskk> I can't remember if it did it not actually
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[15:13] <grumbleist> does anyone have one of these TV dongles working with dl-fldigi on a mac ?
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[15:14] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: oh. now I remember. do you recall the sensitive are of those ti ir parts? is it smaller than the window?
[15:15] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: and do you have any thoughts on using them for dual colour ir temperature?
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[15:23] <G7PMO_Kev> grumbleist - sorry not on a mac
[15:23] <grumbleist> this works perfectly: http://dekar.wc3edit.net/2012/09/30/osx-port-of-the-awesome-gqrx-sdr-software/
[15:24] <G7PMO_Kev> string..... do I need to be under 230N for a notamed launch? and hance need the 1mm nylon from random?
[15:24] <G7PMO_Kev> grumbleist - ok, whats the problem then? :)
[15:25] <Randomskk> it's highly recommended (note I'm not steve and don't run randomengineering)
[15:25] <Randomskk> even if not technically required
[15:25] <grumbleist> its not all HABed up
[15:25] <G7PMO_Kev> the presence of the 1.2mm seems to sugest that the 1mm might be a little weak....
[15:26] <G7PMO_Kev> I wouldnt want to loose the balloon on the launch pad without the payload attached fore example....
[15:26] <Randomskk> the 1mm is definitely not too weak
[15:26] <G7PMO_Kev> ok, ta, 1mm it is then....
[15:27] <G7PMO_Kev> grumbleist - on the PC I run #sdr to get the audio from the dongle, and pass it to dl-fldigi, do you not need the same combo on the mac?
[15:31] <grumbleist> how do you pass the audio ?
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[15:34] <grumbleist> have found James's guide but it looks gnarly http://www.pegasushabproject.org.uk/wiki/doku.php/ideas:rtl-sdr
[15:34] <grumbleist> bit old too
[15:38] <G7PMO_Kev> grumb;eist - I use VirtualCable
[15:38] <G7PMO_Kev> grumbleist - VirtualAudioCable
[15:39] <grumbleist> yeah that would work, if something like that exists for mac
[15:39] <kokey> ok so they found a bright object on mars
[15:40] <kokey> though it looks like a bit of the rover itself
[15:40] <kokey> I was hoping it's some precious metal or gem
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[15:41] <kokey> it would be nice if there were lots of something in a easy to mine format that's expensive and in demand
[15:42] <G7PMO_Kev> kokey - it wouldnt be expensive and in demand anymore if there was lots of it :)
[15:43] <SpeedEvil> the most valuable per kilo is flash memory.
[15:43] <kokey> well ok in the right quantity to make it viable to mine it and still provide a nice margin
[15:44] <SpeedEvil> .2 gram $100
[15:44] <SpeedEvil> way more than gold.
[15:44] <kokey> considering that it will be hard to develop I don't think it will affect the trade price very quickly
[15:45] <SpeedEvil> even if it's single crystal solid platinum, it's not worth it.
[15:46] <G7PMO_Kev> transport costs back to earth might be an issue :)
[15:48] <staylo> magnets are the answer!
[15:48] <kokey> if you can ship back 2 ton of platinum for under $100million you are in business
[15:48] <Laurenceb> <SpeedEvil>
[15:48] <Laurenceb> the sensitive area is about 200micro square
[15:49] <Laurenceb> its flip chip
[15:49] <mfa298> grumbleist: Soundflower might be what you're after (if it's just an audio routing issue)
[15:49] <SpeedEvil> hmm.
[15:49] <Laurenceb> with a silicon lens etched into it
[15:49] <mfa298> grumbleist: http://cycling74.com/soundflower-landing-page/
[15:49] <Laurenceb> - silicon cavity thats lens shaped
[15:49] <Laurenceb> with a suspended thermocouple and absorber array
[15:50] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: so the sensitive apature is 200um?
[15:50] <Laurenceb> that fits against the pcb
[15:50] <Laurenceb> more or less
[15:50] <grumbleist> thanks. will try routing the audio
[15:50] <Laurenceb> but it has limited solid angle
[15:50] <SpeedEvil> thanks. idly wondering about ultimate resolution,
[15:50] <Laurenceb> beamwidth 40 degrees or something
[15:50] <SpeedEvil> (with large external lens)
[15:50] <Laurenceb> the problem is that the suspended cavity is exposed to air
[15:50] <mfa298> grumbleist: I've not used the software personally but it was recommended on an AV technicians site.
[15:51] <Laurenceb> and pcb temp fluctuations
[15:51] <Laurenceb> as its up against the pcb due to the flip chip construction
[15:51] <Laurenceb> i have to stick a sheet of aluminised kapton over mine
[15:51] <Laurenceb> with a ~0.5mm aperture cut with a scale
[15:51] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: I guess I need to look up far it 'colours' to work out if the emissivitiyvy problem is soluble that way
[15:51] <Laurenceb> *scalpel
[15:52] <SpeedEvil> ah
[15:52] <eroomde> link to balloon skydive feed anyone?
[15:52] <G7PMO_Kev> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkJ5ItzEq3M&feature=youtu.be
[15:52] <G7PMO_Kev> not much going on right now
[15:53] <Laurenceb> http://e2e.ti.com/support/other_analog/temperature_sensors/f/243/t/164478.aspx
[15:54] <Laurenceb> http://e2e.ti.com/support/other_analog/temperature_sensors/f/243/t/154826.aspx
[15:55] <Laurenceb> epic monologue
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[15:56] <SpeedEvil> hmm
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[15:57] <Laurenceb> ignore my ranting
[15:57] <Laurenceb> id actually discovered the temperature effects
[15:57] <Laurenceb> inadvertently
[15:57] <eroomde> i don't think you ned to explicitly tell us to do that Laurenceb
[15:57] <Laurenceb> my goofy matlab script fixed it in the end
[15:57] <Laurenceb> lol
[15:58] <SpeedEvil> interesting
[15:58] <SpeedEvil> did the apature largely fox or?
[15:58] <Laurenceb> yes
[15:59] <Laurenceb> aperture + some adaptive filter stuff i tuned up to remove temperature shift effects
[15:59] <SpeedEvil> fix it
[15:59] Action: SpeedEvil sighs.
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[16:00] <SpeedEvil> I don't suppose you recall frequency response of the sensor?
[16:00] <Laurenceb> as in wavelength?
[16:00] <SpeedEvil> wondering about equalisation, for scanning imaging
[16:00] <Laurenceb> 2 to 5microns or something
[16:01] <Laurenceb> or do you mean output data rate?
[16:01] <SpeedEvil> yes
[16:01] <Laurenceb> its very slow
[16:01] <Laurenceb> like 4hz or something
[16:02] <SpeedEvil> I was wondering how that tails off. -6db at 8hz, or...
[16:02] <Laurenceb> i dunno
[16:02] <SpeedEvil> actually, nvm, the ADC won't go that fast, I guess
[16:09] <Laurenceb> its a pretty poor solution for scanning
[16:09] <Laurenceb> i was using as a flowmeter
[16:10] <Laurenceb> very high power IR LED coupled to fibre
[16:11] <SpeedEvil> I agree it's a poor solution.
[16:11] <SpeedEvil> but there aren't dramatically faster obea
[16:11] <SpeedEvil> ones
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[16:12] <cuddykid> ooo - looks like it's a go :D
[16:12] <SpeedEvil> though I have wondered about getting a reel of pyro devices
[16:13] <Laurenceb> i was wondering about a free vacation in cuba
[16:15] <Laurenceb> wow theres loads of threads about tmp006 issues on ti forum now
[16:15] <Laurenceb> i cant be bothered to read them...
[16:17] <Laurenceb> aiui the important thing to remember is that the sense element is exposed
[16:17] <Laurenceb> as its flip chip you may be able to access the signal pre adc
[16:17] <Laurenceb> but youd need a wire bonding rig...
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[16:21] <SpeedEvil> sounds probably insane
[16:22] <SpeedEvil> did the resultant device work to expectations?
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[16:26] <Laurenceb> huh - my fibre device?
[16:26] <Laurenceb> results on the forum
[16:28] <SpeedEvil> oh, diddn't read thoroughly.
[16:28] <SpeedEvil> tired out by trees today.
[16:28] <SpeedEvil> my hedge is at 20ft in bits
[16:28] <SpeedEvil> trying to take off much of the top
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[17:04] <radim_OM2AMR> Felix enters the capsule. Inflation has officially begun. #stratos #livejump http://win.gs/PPJQll pic.twitter.com/upe5aDHE
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[17:08] <G7PMO_Kev> Hi, I was doing some double checking and changed my code to use 'print_float' from guides:common_coding_errors_payload_testing (as the first two options on that page wouldnt work for me), and by default that does dd.dddddd, but habitat payload document says it accepts dd.dddd - habitat seems to accept the additional digits without an issue though?
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[17:09] <Randomskk> by "dd.dddd" it means "decimal degrees"
[17:09] <Randomskk> you can have as many digits as you want
[17:09] <G7PMO_Kev> ta
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[17:09] <G7PMO_Kev> im just being paranoid, after reading the commnon coding errors doc :)
[17:14] <craag> Yay, CRAAG1 pico attempt 2 tomorrow.
[17:14] <x-f> with less wind hopefully?
[17:15] <craag> Yep, predicted landing is ~4km away!
[17:15] <craag> So a lot less.. plus I have 2x balloons this time and plenty of helium.
[17:19] <cuddykid> nice craag
[17:21] <cuddykid> predictions look ok for my launch on sat
[17:21] <cuddykid> only issue at the moment is the damn helium price
[17:21] <cuddykid> need to invest in the equip for h2 filling
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[17:24] <Robert_M0RJX> And I thought our launches took a while
[17:24] <Robert_M0RJX> Evening all old and new
[17:25] <grumbleist> craag: from Basingstoke ?
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[17:28] <Robert_M0RJX> RB Stratos is finally getting sonewhere broadcast starts 18:35 BST
[17:29] <Robert_M0RJX> 7 mins
[17:29] <X-Scale> It's live on youtube -> http://youtu.be/vkJ5ItzEq3M
[17:29] <craag> grumbleist: That's right.
[17:30] <russss> the "Broadcast start" time keeps moving
[17:30] <Robert_M0RJX> or http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=vkJ5ItzEq3M
[17:30] <russss> but they must be using some slightly different definition of "broadcast" to me
[17:30] <russss> because I've been watching the lovely New Mexico skies all day
[17:30] <Robert_M0RJX> Hehe Well audio I imagine
[17:30] <russss> they had a bit of ambient audio earlier
[17:30] <Robert_M0RJX> Opps power cut
[17:31] <Robert_M0RJX> Here we go
[17:31] <Robert_M0RJX> Humm randome
[17:32] <russss> countdown to when you can stop watching the countdown and start watching the video again
[17:32] <Robert_M0RJX> lol
[17:32] <Robert_M0RJX> so true
[17:32] <russss> IMO they've really over-sold this, they're now going to spend an hour filling the envelope
[17:32] <Robert_M0RJX> I'd rather watch whats going on
[17:32] <Robert_M0RJX> I'm sure we're about to get all that promo crap now
[17:33] <russss> it's going to be boring watching to anyone who isn't excited by balloons
[17:33] <russss> yeah perhaps they'll have annoying presenters
[17:33] <russss> to keep the interest up
[17:34] <stilldavid> how long is the ascent supposed to be?
[17:34] <SamSilver> iirc 3 hrs
[17:34] <stilldavid> going to be riveting.
[17:35] <griffonbot> Received email: Philip Crump "[UKHAS] Launch Announcement CRAAG1 Pico (11:30am, Wed 10th October)"
[17:35] <russss> I guess you don't really want to over-egg the ascent rate on that thing
[17:35] <clem_> It better be good, I've been watching the sky in Roswell since dawn
[17:35] <russss> the sky looks nice
[17:36] <clem_> True, but still.
[17:36] <russss> I suspect what we're about to watch is not going to be significantly more exciting than watching the sky.
[17:36] <russss> at least initially
[17:36] <X-Scale> it's on :)
[17:37] <russss> oh wait
[17:37] <russss> the envelope was out of frame the whole time!
[17:37] <russss> grand reveal
[17:37] <clem_> 3 hours, really?
[17:38] <russss> yeah I suspect we're going to get some quality ascent video from it though
[17:38] <Robert_M0RJX> isn't it wrapped in some material on the floor
[17:38] <Robert_M0RJX> Live video streaming. Have we done that yey
[17:38] <Robert_M0RJX> yet
[17:39] <russss> woo Kittinger
[17:39] <X-Scale> yep :)
[17:39] <X-Scale> living legend
[17:40] <cuddykid> isn't the feed going to be delayed by ~20secs incase something bad happens?
[17:40] <russss> yeah
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[17:41] <grumbleist> looks kinda windy
[17:41] <russss> looks a little bit breezy there
[17:41] <russss> heh was going to say
[17:41] <Robert_M0RJX> Bugger getting in that
[17:41] <Burninate> Is this a sealed helium/hydrogen balloon?
[17:41] <russss> apparently their limit was 2.5mph
[17:41] <russss> I believe it's zero pressure helium
[17:41] <Burninate> winds could sink this whole thing on the ground, right?
[17:41] <cuddykid> very gusty
[17:42] <SamSilver> that is way tooooo windy
[17:42] <craag> That concrete contact can't be doing it much good..
[17:42] <cuddykid> Burninate: could do when it launches - they'll have to time it bang on
[17:42] <russss> lame
[17:42] <russss> aborted
[17:42] <stilldavid> abort?!
[17:42] <cuddykid> :(
[17:42] <cuddykid> yep
[17:42] <Robert_M0RJX> Yep
[17:42] <russss> someone fucked up bigtime there
[17:42] <Robert_M0RJX> too windy
[17:42] <russss> that's a good few thousand dollars of balloon and gas
[17:42] <cuddykid> yep
[17:42] <russss> which they've just wasted
[17:43] <stilldavid> dang.
[17:43] <Burninate> and a few hundreds of thousands of press
[17:43] <SamSilver> I got a payload that could strap on
[17:43] <clem_> What's the reason why they didn't use a rocket or a plane instead of a balloon?
[17:43] <Robert_M0RJX> lol get a rec. alt. for that
[17:43] <Burninate> probably a lot cheaper
[17:43] <eroomde> link?
[17:44] <SamSilver> http://www.redbullstratos.com/live/
[17:44] <Robert_M0RJX> And bugger jumping off a rocket at mach 4
[17:44] <russss> clem_: would need to be a rocket, and it's risky to jump out of a rocket at that speed.
[17:44] <Burninate> a suborbital rocket is of order ~$1-$10m
[17:44] <Robert_M0RJX> eroomde they have aboarted
[17:44] <eroomde> oh
[17:44] <eroomde> bugger that then
[17:44] <Robert_M0RJX> too much wind
[17:44] <clem_> ok, thanks russss
[17:44] <Robert_M0RJX> Almost ripped balloon
[17:45] <Burninate> Could they even tell?
[17:45] <Robert_M0RJX> Rather like one of james's launches
[17:45] <cuddykid> reminds me of my last launch
[17:46] <russss> well yeah, after the balloon has been blown around like that, I'd have thought it's likely to have been weakened
[17:46] <cuddykid> I bet felix is unbelievably pissed off
[17:46] <clem_> this guy went to space with a plane http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rReGnvYPcqM
[17:46] <clem_> anyways
[17:47] <Burninate> that's 18km
[17:47] <Burninate> assuming 60k feet
[17:47] <russss> bet they had marketing pressure to proceed there
[17:47] <CanadaWest> I'm watching with mute. I appreciate the play-by-play here.
[17:48] <CanadaWest> but an abort... lame.
[17:48] <Burninate> this is twice as high
[17:48] <Robert_M0RJX> eroomde you back at camb this year?
[17:48] <russss> for nothing else they just wasted fuck-knows-how-many cubic metres of helium for the sake of a PR stunt
[17:48] <Burninate> I bet they had marketting pressure that resulted in them even attemptint to make it today given the weather
[17:48] <russss> yep
[17:48] <eroomde> Robert_M0RJX: i live in oxford now
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[17:49] <Robert_M0RJX> Studying?
[17:49] <eroomde> working, like a job with actual money and stuff
[17:49] <russss> clem_: *this* guy went into space in a plane. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-15_Flight_91
[17:49] <CanadaWest> They have the money to waste, so they don't see wasting helium as an issue.
[17:49] <eroomde> feels odd
[17:49] <Robert_M0RJX> Oxford is nice we have an office on the science park down there
[17:50] <Robert_M0RJX> I'm sure you are doing something fun down there
[17:50] <russss> the X-15 subsequently killed someone, it wasn't a particularly safe piece of kit. It was awesome though.
[17:50] <eroomde> Robert_M0RJX: where abouts?
[17:51] <eroomde> Robert_M0RJX: yep it's fun, am working on skylon.
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[17:51] <eroomde> well, the sabre engine
[17:51] <G7PMO_Kev> Guys, I'm getting frustrated with http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:common_coding_errors_payload_testing. Neither of the 'easy ways' seem to work for me, and the hard way seems to be droping the negative?
[17:51] <Robert_M0RJX> eroomde http://www.hgf.com/location.asp?ID=11
[17:52] <G7PMO_Kev> Could someone talk it through with me pls...
[17:52] <eroomde> cool
[17:52] <eroomde> G7PMO_Kev: i can't as i am busy, but someone will probably ask you to paste the relevent bit of code into pastie.org
[17:52] <eroomde> so start with that
[17:53] <Robert_M0RJX> right off to canoe polo
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[17:53] <G7PMO_Kev> http://pastie.org/5025369
[17:54] <G7PMO_Kev> and here are the functions: http://pastie.org/5025372
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[17:55] <CanadaWest> C?
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[17:56] <CanadaWest> I'm a programmer. If it's a code issue, perhaps I can help.
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[17:56] <G7PMO_Kev> Canada - thankyou, have a look here: http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:common_coding_errors_payload_testing
[17:56] Nick change: X-Scale -> Guest82438
[17:56] Nick change: Guest82438 -> X-Scale
[17:57] <CanadaWest> This looks like what was presented at the 2012 HASS conf....
[17:57] <CanadaWest> (sp)
[17:58] <russss> apparently the size of that envelope is 835,000 cubic metres
[17:58] <russss> although I presume that's at altitude
[17:58] <G7PMO_Kev> Canada - dstrtof doesnt compile for me, I cant find any referance to the lib that provides it
[17:59] <G7PMO_Kev> Canada - the snprintf(s.lonbuf, 12, "%.6f", g.flon); just prints question marks, presumably because of the lack of float handaling in the Arduinio snprintf function?
[17:59] <CanadaWest> So, it's the print_float function that bjorks for you?
[17:59] <G7PMO_Kev> Canada - and the third option shown on that page drops the minus sign! :)
[17:59] <G7PMO_Kev> Canada - I'm trying the third option right now, the print_float( function
[18:00] <W0OTM> wasted He!
[18:00] <W0OTM> grrrrr
[18:00] <CanadaWest> What processor are you compiling for?
[18:01] <CanadaWest> How fast does this need to be?
[18:01] <G7PMO_Kev> Canada - Arduino
[18:01] <CanadaWest> You can always write your own float->string function.
[18:03] <G7PMO_Kev> Canada - have a look at the print_float function on the http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:common_coding_errors_payload_testing page, that is suppost to be a standalone float -> string function is it not?
[18:04] <Randomskk> lol output filter http://randomskk.net/u/wombat_spectrum.png
[18:04] <CanadaWest> the examples on this page use either snprintf or dstrtof to do the conversion.
[18:05] <G7PMO_Kev> Canada - scroll down to "Fixed version"
[18:05] <CanadaWest> If those functions don't compile, then that's an issue (which you're having). Here, let me write you a new function.
[18:05] <CanadaWest> Just confirm: C or C++?
[18:06] <G7PMO_Kev> Canada - Arduino..... C I believe?
[18:06] <Randomskk> C++
[18:07] <G7PMO_Kev> why isn't "int i1 = what;" in print_float taking the negative over :(
[18:08] <CanadaWest> conflicting answers.. the page is using gcc, which is often c++, so I'm going with that.
[18:08] <CanadaWest> Gimme a few... in a meeting. coding on the sly. ;)
[18:09] <Burninate> is the envelope a writeoff?
[18:09] <Burninate> for RBS
[18:11] <x-f> Burninate, yes
[18:12] <Burninate> tears?
[18:12] <Burninate> or UV
[18:13] <G7PMO_Kev> the envelope was getting blown on to the ground and twisted around and around - I wouldn't wana trust my life with it anymore :)
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[18:13] <CanadaWest> The negative might have to so with float representation on this processor. I'm not going to assume anything. my code might be "slower" but it will work.
[18:15] <G7PMO_Kev> Canada - I have an example that appears to work (http://pastie.org/5025486), but that code has no credntials and I have no hope of understanding it, which is why I was trying to use one of the 3 options from the common coding errors page - as they should be right :)
[18:17] <CanadaWest> that code is usable. let me break it down for you.
[18:18] <CanadaWest> outstr is your destination string. It assumes your number is < 9999999999999999
[18:19] <CanadaWest> val is the number you want to convert.
[18:20] <CanadaWest> precision is how many decimal places you want...
[18:20] <CanadaWest> it doesn't use widthp!!!!
[18:21] <CanadaWest> useless param...
[18:21] <G7PMO_Kev> :)
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[18:22] <G7PMO_Kev> is dstrtof on the coding errors page a typo for dtostrf?
[18:22] <CanadaWest> It also doesn't return anything...
[18:22] <CanadaWest> nor should it...
[18:22] <CanadaWest> you pass in outstr...
[18:22] <G7PMO_Kev> I call it like: floatToString(s.latbuf, g.flat, 6, 0);
[18:23] <CanadaWest> yeah. answer goes in s.latbuf
[18:24] <CanadaWest> ok, let me clean this up and send it back to you.
[18:25] <G7PMO_Kev> thankyou
[18:26] <DanielRichman> can I implore you not to write another float to string function
[18:27] <DanielRichman> well - it seems you've already begun
[18:27] <DanielRichman> though I do not wish to comment on the quality of your code - it hasn't even been posted yet - rewriting things like that unnecessarily seems to be quite a common cause of HAB bugs
[18:28] <CanadaWest> I haven't begun.. just looking at his.
[18:28] <CanadaWest> It will leak memory like a seive though...
[18:28] <CanadaWest> potentially...
[18:28] <DanielRichman> what will?
[18:29] <CanadaWest> the function G7PMO_Kev sent
[18:29] <DanielRichman> I see no mention of malloc/similar in it
[18:29] <CanadaWest> yeah, all mem mgmt is done external to the function.
[18:30] <CanadaWest> which can be ok....
[18:30] <DanielRichman> my point is
[18:30] <G7PMO_Kev> DanielRichman - Can I ask, is dstrtof a typo for dtostrf in http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:common_coding_errors_payload_testing - if so, I can use the built in function as recomended...
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[18:30] <eroomde> not my finest pcb ever but it needs to be in by 7.30 tomorrow to get it back on thursday. This chip definitely wants to be 4 layer. I've had to do some bad things to make it work on 2
[18:30] <eroomde> http://www.flickr.com/photos/eroomde/8071558586/in/photostream
[18:30] <DanielRichman> I can't see a line in what he posted that either allocates memory or calls something that does
[18:30] <CanadaWest> Daniel does have a point. If it's a typo, then that's a way better solution.
[18:31] <DanielRichman> G7PMO_Kev: yes
[18:31] <DanielRichman> it's a typo
[18:31] <G7PMO_Kev> :)
[18:31] <DanielRichman> I think it's my typo too, let me fix that >_>
[18:32] <DanielRichman> http://www.nongnu.org/avr-libc/user-manual/group__avr__stdlib.html#ga060c998e77fb5fc0d3168b3ce8771d42
[18:32] <G7PMO_Kev> dam, I wanted the credit for it :) :) :)
[18:32] <G7PMO_Kev> :P
[18:33] <G7PMO_Kev> DanielRichman - btw, I couldnt get the other 2 options on that page to work either, snprintf option gives me ???? (presumably because of lack of floating point code as the wikik mentions) and the "Fixed Version" doesnt give me minus's
[18:33] <fsphil> http://pastebin.com/p0pEnF5b
[18:33] <fsphil> :)
[18:34] <G7PMO_Kev> fsphil - is that a correction for the 'Fixed Version" on the wiki coding errors page?
[18:34] <fsphil> I think I wrote the original version of that, which is a bit embarrasing as it's got one of the bugs that pages talkes about
[18:34] <fsphil> talks*
[18:34] <fsphil> actually no that's still buggy G7PMO_Kev
[18:35] <CanadaWest> How do you like that.. the Wiki now has the updated code on it... :)
[18:35] <fsphil> don't use it
[18:35] <G7PMO_Kev> hehehe
[18:35] <G7PMO_Kev> I love a coding errors wiki that makes my code worse :) :) :)
[18:35] <DanielRichman> G7PMO_Kev: one sec. Let me have a look at this minuses thing
[18:35] <CanadaWest> dtostrf is buggy?
[18:36] <G7PMO_Kev> CanadaWest - No, dtostrf is working for me, but the third option on that page, the "fixed version" seems to have a minus issue....
[18:37] <DanielRichman> G7PMO_Kev: I compiled the fixed version on the wiki on my PC and it worked
[18:37] <CanadaWest> heh
[18:37] <DanielRichman> so if there is a minus issue, then it is presumably (?) some difference between avr and ..? shouldn't be, that would be crazy
[18:37] <G7PMO_Kev> DanielRichman - look at spacenear.us for what happened on the Arduino for me :)
[18:37] <CanadaWest> nice. it doesn't -1 the buf size to print the '-' char?
[18:37] <fsphil> print_float() is broken DanielRichman
[18:38] <fsphil> try -0.5
[18:38] <fsphil> -1.5 will work
[18:38] <G7PMO_Kev> -0.7 becomes 0.7
[18:38] <DanielRichman> excellent point
[18:38] <fsphil> it's a silly bug
[18:38] <CanadaWest> if < then (where, buf_size-1, "%i.%06li", i1, i2);
[18:39] <CanadaWest> sorry, <0
[18:39] <CanadaWest> pseudocode
[18:39] <CanadaWest> wait...
[18:40] <fsphil> this version works: http://pastebin.com/x6CTE0qK
[18:40] <DanielRichman> I've just updated the wiki
[18:40] <fsphil> my version is easier :)
[18:40] <DanielRichman> indeed
[18:41] <CanadaWest> that will work
[18:41] <CanadaWest> all depending if you want the '-' to affect your precision or not.
[18:41] <fsphil> also you'd get --1.5 for -1.5
[18:41] <DanielRichman> I've labs'd i1
[18:42] <G7PMO_Kev> Where did the original "fixed version" go wrong guys?
[18:42] <CanadaWest> they said it didn't print negatives
[18:42] <fsphil> numbers between -1 and 0 didn't get a negative sign
[18:42] <DanielRichman> no. It didn't work for -1 < x < 0
[18:43] <fsphil> which is exactly one of the bugs that page talks about ....
[18:43] <fsphil> or at least used to
[18:43] <G7PMO_Kev> I know it didnt, but as a layman reading the code, I can see why it doesnt print the - for between -1 and 0?
[18:44] <G7PMO_Kev> can = cant!
[18:44] <fsphil> the float was being converted to an integer
[18:44] <G7PMO_Kev> yup
[18:44] <fsphil> which can't contain a -0
[18:44] <G7PMO_Kev> ahhhhh
[18:44] <G7PMO_Kev> doh
[18:44] <fsphil> 0 is always 0
[18:44] <DanielRichman> the moral of the story is
[18:44] <DanielRichman> use dtostrf
[18:44] <fsphil> it's hit more than a few flights :)
[18:44] <fsphil> yes
[18:44] <G7PMO_Kev> hence my position of -0.7 tickled that.....
[18:44] <fsphil> dtostrf is the answer
[18:44] <fsphil> or don't use floats
[18:45] <fsphil> which is what I do
[18:45] <fsphil> floats mean pain :)
[18:45] <G7PMO_Kev> didnt help that dtostrf was listed as dstrtof :P
[18:45] <fsphil> lol
[18:45] <fsphil> our errors page has many errors
[18:45] <G7PMO_Kev> thanks guys, working using dtostrf now :)
[18:46] <CanadaWest> I know why it doesn't do -s between 0 and -1
[18:46] <G7PMO_Kev> http://spacenear.us/tracker/ has me back in the right place :)
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[18:46] <fsphil> there was a flight that has both the -1>0 bug, and a padding error
[18:46] <fsphil> that plot was.. interesting
[18:46] <CanadaWest> int - float
[18:47] <CanadaWest> int is 0 instead of -0
[18:47] <DanielRichman> okay okay
[18:47] <CanadaWest> snprintf(where, buf_size, "%s%i.%06li", (what < 0 && i1==0 ? "-" : ""), labs(i1), i2);
[18:48] <fsphil> CanadaWest, check the wiki
[18:48] <fsphil> it's been fixed
[18:48] <CanadaWest> but yeah, use dtostrf
[18:48] <CanadaWest> wiki is wrong
[18:48] <fsphil> reload it
[18:48] <DanielRichman> s/okay okay// (what I was about to say turned out to be necessary)
[18:48] <CanadaWest> that will have --s
[18:49] <fsphil> not anymore
[18:49] <CanadaWest> print -2.0
[18:49] <DanielRichman> [I'm pretty sure there was never any "--" in any version posted]
[18:50] <fsphil> the wiki version briefly
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[18:51] <fsphil> so yea, floats suck
[18:52] <CanadaWest> try printing -2.0 with the wiki code.
[18:52] <CanadaWest> wait...
[18:52] <fsphil> Result: -2.000000
[18:52] <CanadaWest> labs is abs.. right
[18:52] <fsphil> different type
[18:53] <fsphil> labs is long int
[18:53] <fsphil> abs is just int
[18:53] <CanadaWest> Sorry, just doing all this in my head.
[18:53] <CanadaWest> but it will return an absolute value. that's key.
[18:53] <fsphil> yes
[18:54] <CanadaWest> ok, then I agree. the code on the wiki should be good now.
[18:54] <fsphil> regardless, use dtostrf :)
[18:54] <CanadaWest> Agreed.
[18:54] <CanadaWest> unless it doesn't compile for some odd reason.
[18:58] <CanadaWest> and tis is set to 8decimal points of precision?
[18:58] <CanadaWest> no.. 7
[18:58] <CanadaWest> 6.... miscounted the 0s..
[18:58] <W0OTM> fsphil: howdy
[18:59] <fsphil> hya W0OTM
[18:59] <fsphil> how's things over that side of the pond?
[18:59] <W0OTM> fsphil: good good thx
[18:59] <W0OTM> fsphil: I want your opinion.
[18:59] <CanadaWest> Where are you W0OTM?
[18:59] <W0OTM> fsphil: Iowa
[18:59] <W0OTM> oops
[18:59] <W0OTM> CanadaWest: Iowa
[18:59] <fsphil> great place :) next... ;)
[18:59] <CanadaWest> fair enuff.
[19:00] <CanadaWest> Back to my meeting
[19:00] <fsphil> those are always fun and productive
[19:00] <W0OTM> fsphil: VHF APRS, 2watt xmtr, do I REALLY need a external 18" whip, or do you think a small 3" whip (HT whip) would be good enough
[19:01] <fsphil> I guess that depends on the density of receivers
[19:02] <W0OTM> at altitude, plenty dense
[19:02] <W0OTM> I also have a mobile igate I pull behind the chase vehicle
[19:03] <fsphil> ah yes, the cool trailer
[19:03] <W0OTM> LOL
[19:04] <fsphil> I wouldn't like to say, it would be worth testing the antenna if you've got any kind of hill or mountain nearby
[19:04] <W0OTM> k
[19:04] <fsphil> there's virtually no arps activity here
[19:06] <CanadaWest> W0OTM.. is there a NA group I should join as well?
[19:06] <CanadaWest> NA= North America
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[19:12] <jcoxon> evening all
[19:13] <jonsowman> evening james
[19:14] <fsphil> howdy
[19:17] Action: jcoxon cracks on with pegasus 8
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[19:20] <W0OTM> CanadaWest: what do you mean?
[19:20] <W0OTM> CanadaWest: Im assuming you are familiar with ARHAB.org?
[19:20] <CanadaWest> nope
[19:21] <W0OTM> CanadaWest: That would be a starting place
[19:21] <W0OTM> CanadaWest: They have a nice "Upcoming Launch" section
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[19:21] <CanadaWest> Is it NA specific?
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[19:22] <radim_OM2AMR> W0OTM, 300 mW at 144.8 MHz is enough for APRS HAB
[19:22] <radim_OM2AMR> or 144.390 in US if I'm correct
[19:23] <CanadaWest> Thanks W0OTM.
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[19:25] <radim_OM2AMR> W0OTM, we used it with lambda/4 whip antenna, the best DX was about 500 km https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=3135381163383&set=o.341510389216867&type=1&theater
[19:25] <CanadaWest> Just out of curiosity, do payloads every get condensation on them at altitude?
[19:26] <CanadaWest> Or is it just too high/payloads aren't up that long?
[19:28] <fsphil> it does happen
[19:28] <W0OTM> CanadaWest: It is happen for sure
[19:28] <fsphil> usually right in front of the camera
[19:29] <W0OTM> CanadaWest: I have frost covered photos to prove it :)
[19:29] <W0OTM> LMAO
[19:29] <mfa298> http://youtu.be/vkJ5ItzEq3M
[19:30] <mfa298> hmmmm, must not put stuff down on the right mouse button.
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[19:33] <CanadaWest> ok. thanks!
[19:33] <W0OTM> CanadaWest: http://www.ihabproject.com/iHAB-1/Payload_6.JPG
[19:34] <CanadaWest> Nice!
[19:34] <W0OTM> CanadaWest: http://www.ihabproject.com/iHAB-1/Media/IMG_3830.JPG
[19:35] <CanadaWest> W0OTM: How much did that box cost you to make?
[19:35] <W0OTM> CanadaWest: nothing
[19:35] <W0OTM> CanadaWest: foambox was a freebee, wife made the harness
[19:35] <CanadaWest> W0OTM: I mean with all equipment in it
[19:36] <CanadaWest> transmitter, etc.
[19:36] <W0OTM> CanadaWest: oh, well, dont really know. I tell people I have about $1000 in my payload
[19:36] <W0OTM> CanadaWest: alot of stuff gets donated by other hams
[19:37] <W0OTM> CanadaWest: for example, the 20M xmtr, and keyer/controller was donated for my launch on Sunday
[19:37] <CanadaWest> W0OTM: Cool. Do you have a component list somewhere?
[19:38] <CanadaWest> W0OTM: If not, np.
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[19:38] <CanadaWest> W0OTM: Donated? You have to return it?
[19:39] <CanadaWest> W0OTM: Cuz you never know when it will be lost... heaven forbid.
[19:39] <W0OTM> you can browse the different launch pages on my website. I usually have LOTS of photos and a writeup of each lauch/payload ihabproject.com
[19:39] <W0OTM> CanadaWest: no, donated. never lost a payload yet, but folks are understanding of the risks
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[19:43] <number10> whats on pegasus 8 jcoxon
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[19:49] <jcoxon> number10, everything
[19:49] <jcoxon> :-)
[19:50] <number10> a big one rather than a pico I presume from the name
[19:50] <number10> when are you planning to be ready for a launch?
[19:50] <jcoxon> 20th oct
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[19:51] <number10> suffolk?
[19:51] <jcoxon> yeah
[19:51] <jcoxon> wanna help?
[19:52] <number10> yes, not that I was much help last time - but was fun to be there!
[19:55] <jcoxon> well maybe this time we'll get it off the ground...
[19:55] <jcoxon> it'll have sstv, ssdv and rtty
[19:56] <cuddykid> never good when you think you've routed the pcb then it tells you there's a mysterious airwire left somewhere..
[19:56] <cuddykid> but completely ripping it up, rearranging and doing it again seems to have worked :D
[19:56] <Laurenceb_> eagle 6.1 has rounding errors
[19:57] <cuddykid> ah, so there isn't a missing airwire Laurenceb?
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[19:57] <cuddykid> well, I've hunted around
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[19:58] <cuddykid> can't see anything
[19:59] <Laurenceb_> turn off all layers
[19:59] <Laurenceb_> look for yellow
[19:59] <cuddykid> hmm, pesky unrouted layer is displaying one but not showing with other layers enabled
[19:59] <number10> jcoxon: I hope so - ssdv is fun to track - is it a one way trip or recoverable?
[19:59] <jcoxon> one way
[19:59] <jcoxon> built from recycled parts
[19:59] <Laurenceb_> stupid buggy mess
[20:00] <cuddykid> right, I think I've found it :)
[20:01] <cuddykid> woooo! routed :D
[20:02] <cuddykid> now to be ripped apart by people lol
[20:02] <Randomskk> go on, post it :D
[20:02] <cuddykid> one sec
[20:02] <Randomskk> I'll be gentle ;)
[20:03] <cuddykid> imgur is down for maintenance
[20:03] <cuddykid> oh, it's back
[20:04] <cuddykid> http://i.imgur.com/FX8y4.png
[20:04] <cuddykid> swapped it over - now rfm is on the back and microSD on front
[20:04] <cuddykid> managed to get RF and GPS ants close and straight track
[20:04] <Randomskk> bold
[20:04] <Randomskk> where's your ground plane?
[20:04] <Laurenceb_> hehe
[20:04] <cuddykid> Randomskk: I'll do a fill in a mo
[20:05] <Randomskk> you... didn't start with a fill?
[20:05] <cuddykid> no
[20:05] <Laurenceb_> "ground plane.. whats that"
[20:05] <cuddykid> didn't route my other pcb starting with ground plane either
[20:06] <Randomskk> when I said "I tend to put a ground plane on the bottom then route all the signals on top, but you find what works for you" what I meant was "do what I do" :P
[20:06] <Randomskk> in more seriousness
[20:06] <Randomskk> do the ground pour now
[20:06] <Randomskk> then post a new image
[20:06] <Randomskk> there are serious issues with it as it stands -- like those two ground pins just connecting to the GPS antenna ground, then running through the ublox onto the rest of the PCB ground through a really thin trace
[20:06] <Randomskk> which will vanish with a ground fill
[20:07] <cuddykid> yeah, I knew that
[20:07] <cuddykid> I'll do it now
[20:07] <Randomskk> there are some other slightly less easily solved issues
[20:07] <Randomskk> :P
[20:08] <Randomskk> does it pass DRC btw?
[20:12] <cuddykid> http://i.imgur.com/G9kpL.png
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[20:12] <cuddykid> need to do a keep out under max6 and put some more vias in I guess
[20:12] <cuddykid> I'll check DRC now
[20:13] <Randomskk> it's a bit late to check DRC now -- ideally you'd check it after every trace or two.
[20:13] <cuddykid> oh
[20:13] <Randomskk> (ideally eagle wouldn't let you place DRC-violating traces, like kicad, but there you go)
[20:13] <Randomskk> it looks like your DRC settings are _very_ lenient right now (going on the ground pour)
[20:13] <Randomskk> might want to up spacing
[20:13] <Randomskk> I know seeed claim 6/6 but in practice that won't always work out
[20:14] <cuddykid> 123 errors lol
[20:14] <Randomskk> best fix those
[20:14] <Randomskk> check your DRC settings first though
[20:15] <cuddykid> I'm using seeeds file
[20:15] <cuddykid> other wise it would be over 600 error
[20:16] <Randomskk> seeeds is the absolute tightest they can do
[20:16] <Randomskk> but if you rely on that for the whole board you're likely to find manufacturing defects
[20:16] <Laurenceb_> i use 8/8 for seed
[20:16] <Randomskk> and unless you test every trace yourself you won't know where they are or which of your boards are OK
[20:16] <Laurenceb_> sometimes go to 7 in one or two places
[20:16] <Randomskk> I push to 6 where I really want to and keep everything above 10 if possible
[20:16] <cuddykid> what do you mean 6/6 or 8/8?
[20:16] <Randomskk> then more like 12 for ground pour
[20:17] <Randomskk> track width / spacing between copper, in mils (thous or 1/1000")
[20:17] <cuddykid> ah
[20:17] <Randomskk> so 6/6 means minimum 6mil tracks with at least 6 mils between them
[20:17] <cuddykid> thanks
[20:18] <Randomskk> bear in mind the number of errors is a little misleading
[20:18] <Randomskk> one mistake will lead to a lot of related errors that are all fixed by the same thing
[20:18] <cuddykid> yep
[20:19] <cuddykid> Randomskk: is there anyway to "bulk" reduce thickness of tracks?
[20:19] <cuddykid> going to take ages to go through each one
[20:19] <Randomskk> uhm
[20:19] <Randomskk> yes
[20:19] <Randomskk> I've done it before
[20:19] <Randomskk> can't remember how in eagle though
[20:19] <Randomskk> think you can type a command into the command line box
[20:19] <Randomskk> then hit the green traffic light
[20:19] <Randomskk> something stupid
[20:19] <cuddykid> I'll have a google
[20:19] <cuddykid> lol
[20:20] <Randomskk> I'd just rip t all up, put down a ground plane, and route it again with new drc and width settings
[20:20] <Randomskk> it'l go like 2x faster the second time
[20:20] <Randomskk> and be 10x better
[20:20] <cuddykid> -_-
[20:20] <Randomskk> consider the first go a learning experience
[20:20] <Randomskk> (consider the second go a learning experience too)
[20:20] <cuddykid> this is like the 4th time lol
[20:20] <jonsowman> turn off all layers apart from copper
[20:20] <jonsowman> group all
[20:20] <jonsowman> right click
[20:20] <Randomskk> I'm serious -- I do it ocasionally if the first run feels a bit unsatisfying
[20:20] <jonsowman> change Width
[20:20] <Randomskk> that's it.
[20:20] <cuddykid> thanks jonsowman
[20:21] <Randomskk> you're paying to have this stuff made
[20:21] <Randomskk> may as well get the design right
[20:21] <Randomskk> lot more expensive to fix later
[20:21] <cuddykid> guess so
[20:21] <Randomskk> nice gps sampler board eroomde
[20:22] <Randomskk> eroomde: that said, you should give each of those passives on the left their own via to the ground plane :P
[20:22] <Randomskk> or currents going down the trace between them can give you a voltage which shifts the ground for one of them ;o
[20:23] <jonsowman> you'll never Wombat on the "vias per unit area" count though
[20:23] <Randomskk> yea I think your ground plane needs more stitching
[20:23] <Randomskk> I'm still amazed that two bits I and two bits Q is enough to decode GPS
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[20:28] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[20:40] <CanadaWest> Hi Lunar_Landing
[20:41] <CanadaWest> wups.. sorry.. (sp)
[20:41] <Lunar_Lander> no problem
[20:41] <Lunar_Lander> how are you?
[20:41] <CanadaWest> Doing well.
[20:41] <Lunar_Lander> that is nice to hear, me too
[20:42] <CanadaWest> Enjoying the UKHAS Wiki.
[20:43] <CanadaWest> Making progress on my own project. :)
[20:43] <Lunar_Lander> nice :)
[20:43] <CanadaWest> Still gathering components.
[20:43] <Lunar_Lander> I have to refrain from research until after the physics exam on thursday
[20:44] <CanadaWest> Research is addictive. I was on <4hrs sleep for 4 days solid. sucked.
[20:44] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[20:44] <CanadaWest> But I'm kinda an obsessive person.
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[20:45] <CanadaWest> Lunar: what grade/post sec?
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[20:52] <Lunar_Lander> ah, studying towards B.Sc.
[20:52] <Lunar_Lander> so that's undergraduate I think
[20:52] <MrScienceMan> xyep
[20:53] <CanadaWest> L_L: Cool. Where?
[20:53] <Lunar_Lander> Osnabruck, north-west germany
[20:53] <MrScienceMan> CanadaWest: dont you have tab-complete ?
[20:54] <CanadaWest> MrScienceMan: Ooh! I do!
[20:54] <CanadaWest> The last time I was on IRC, it was 1997.
[20:54] <MrScienceMan> that nearly around when i got first on irc
[20:54] <MrScienceMan> :)
[20:55] <CanadaWest> First on IRC before that...
[20:56] <CanadaWest> MrScienceMan: Grade 10... so... '93?
[20:56] <MrScienceMan> sorry, not following
[20:57] <CanadaWest> you said you first got on around '97. I'm just saying I was using IRC '93-'97
[20:57] <CanadaWest> not important
[20:57] <MrScienceMan> ahh
[20:58] <CanadaWest> MrScienceMan: Do you have a project page?
[21:00] <MrScienceMan> balloonign?
[21:00] <CanadaWest> MrScienceMan: just curious, I'm new so I'm checking to see what others have done. Any topic.
[21:00] <MrScienceMan> sure, flew about a month ago
[21:00] <MrScienceMan> http://www2.cs.man.ac.uk/~popovr8/tiny/
[21:01] <CanadaWest> Cool. Nice to see the uBlox works at altitude!
[21:02] <MrScienceMan> flawlessly
[21:02] <CanadaWest> Excellent. I ordered one.
[21:03] <MrScienceMan> although one crusial thing is, if you use APRS
[21:03] <MrScienceMan> have a sequence number on sentances, coz sometimes they might come out of order
[21:04] <Randomskk> have a sequence number anyway
[21:04] <Randomskk> everyone does
[21:04] <CanadaWest> Right. I watched the HAS2012 conference vid and one of the speakers recommended timestamps for every message for that exact reason. :)
[21:05] <MrScienceMan> they have time, from the gps
[21:05] <MrScienceMan> but say if you lose fix
[21:05] <MrScienceMan> you can get two packets with the same time
[21:05] <MrScienceMan> so sequence numbers wins
[21:06] <Randomskk> put time and a sequence count
[21:06] <CanadaWest> and it takes up less space than a timestamp
[21:08] <MrScienceMan> timestamp is required for APRS
[21:10] <CanadaWest> I'm still taking all this in. I'm a programmer, so hardware is where I'm a little weak. I keep thinking things need to be more complex than they really are.
[21:11] <CanadaWest> MrScienceMan: you just have the GPS go to a microcontroller go to a transmitter. It's that simple.
[21:12] <CanadaWest> You're using a EU transmitter, I'll need the FCC approved one though.
[21:13] <MrScienceMan> you have to check the regulations
[21:13] <MrScienceMan> but they gps/avr/radio
[21:13] <CanadaWest> I think I have to use the 900Mhz band...
[21:13] <CanadaWest> something like that...
[21:13] <MrScienceMan> i wouldn't call the build efficient or optimal
[21:13] <MrScienceMan> there is a lot of room for improvement
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[21:14] <MrScienceMan> we have GSM here so, 900mhz is not an options
[21:14] <MrScienceMan> :)
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[21:17] <CanadaWest> MrScienceMan: I think this is what I need over here in Canada - https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9411
[21:17] <CanadaWest> We have GSM phones here.
[21:18] <CanadaWest> but it's all about frequencies...
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[21:20] <CanadaWest> MrScienceMan: When it hits the ground, does it still xmit with your radiometrix?
[21:21] <MrScienceMan> yes, on even shorter invervals
[21:24] <CanadaWest> right. to save power, and because the information should be static. It's just saying "Here I am" once every minute or so.
[21:25] <CanadaWest> MrScienceMan: You increase the gain though, on the ground..
[21:25] <MrScienceMan> I had it at 10seconds invertval, we found it by listening
[21:26] <MrScienceMan> we didnt rx anything after touch down
[21:26] <MrScienceMan> if you have a radio, it shouldnt be problem finding it
[21:26] <MrScienceMan> once you get in the general area
[21:26] <MrScienceMan> unless something breaks
[21:27] <CanadaWest> What if it travels 100kms before you can get its landing coords? (extreme example)
[21:27] <MrScienceMan> its TXs throught out the flight
[21:28] <MrScienceMan> not just when it lands
[21:28] <MrScienceMan> one of the reason APRS was used
[21:28] <MrScienceMan> there are quite a few station to recieve
[21:28] <CanadaWest> 40KM range, right?
[21:28] <MrScienceMan> so you are almost 99% covered while in the air
[21:28] <CanadaWest> Wait.. they relay to you?
[21:29] <MrScienceMan> they relay to the internet
[21:29] <CanadaWest> Somehow, I missed that. that is just awesome.
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[21:29] <CanadaWest> Is that just in the EU?
[21:29] <MrScienceMan> no
[21:29] <MrScienceMan> lookup APRS
[21:30] <CanadaWest> Awsome! http://aprs.fi/#!lat=49.25000&lng=-122.95000
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[21:30] <CanadaWest> Still, there are holes here.
[21:31] <MrScienceMan> we had two cars with recievers
[21:31] <MrScienceMan> chasing
[21:31] <MrScienceMan> so, it wasnt really a problem
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[21:33] <MrScienceMan> good luck
[21:33] <MrScienceMan> im off
[21:33] <MrScienceMan> gn
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[21:37] <Burninate> Is this system APRS?
[21:37] <Burninate> http://www.gundogsupply.com/garmin-astro.html?gclid=CMSrlKHy9LICFUqi4AodRmAA_g
[21:38] <Burninate> because it sounds almost identical to that
[21:38] <Burninate> maybe minus the repeaters
[21:40] <Burninate> wait a second, these base stations are wireless -> internet -> wireless?
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[21:41] <craag> Burninate: You asking about APRS stations?
[21:41] <Burninate> yes
[21:41] <Burninate> never heard of them before
[21:41] <Burninate> though I've used the GPS locator system I linked above
[21:41] <craag> Basically a digipeater listens for packets on a radio channel and then transmits them again on the same radio channel.
[21:42] <Burninate> how does it prevent loops?
[21:42] <craag> The digipeater adds it's callsign to the packet.
[21:42] <craag> Also the number of hops is limited.
[21:42] <Burninate> ahh, okay
[21:43] <Burninate> this could be very useful for my purposes
[21:43] <Burninate> how big is an APS field unit?
[21:43] <Burninate> *APRS
[21:43] <craag> These guys are the most common for vehicles: http://www.byonics.com/tinytrak/
[21:44] <craag> But obviously some hab people have made them smaller and lighter.
[21:44] <craag> What are you thinking of using it for out of interest?
[21:45] <Burninate> What % of repeaters are set up for Internet reporting of what they hear?
[21:45] <Burninate> UAV geolocation, telemetry, and in particular last-ditch telemetry in case everything else fails
[21:46] <craag> Erm not many really, as they tend to be in remote locations (tops of hills) without internet access.
[21:46] <craag> The thing to remember is that you are limited to about one packet a minute, otherwise you'll completely hog the local APRS channel.
[21:46] <Burninate> how long is a packet?
[21:47] <Burninate> in time and in data
[21:47] <craag> about 3 seconds for a minimum gps packet.
[21:47] <craag> maybe 2
[21:48] <craag> then 3-4 seconds for one with a lot of data.
[21:48] <Burninate> 5% load factor is "complete hogging"?
[21:48] <Randomskk> lots of other people use it all the time
[21:48] <Randomskk> and there's no conflict detection/retry
[21:48] <craag> well the digipeater will repeat it, so that doubles it
[21:48] <Randomskk> gotta just hope you don't conflict while transmitting
[21:48] <Burninate> ahh
[21:48] <Randomskk> and yea, the repeater retransmits it
[21:49] <craag> And then as Randomskk mentions, there's no collision detection, so it only really works below 30% capacity, otherwise collisions become too common for anything useful to be received.
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[21:50] <CanadaWest> TTFN guys!
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[21:51] <SpeedEvil> it may be reasonable to go to more rapid updates if under 5km, with good lock, and descending at over 3m/s say
[21:52] <SpeedEvil> actually, isn't aprs naturally bidirectiona
[21:52] <SpeedEvil> ?
[21:52] <craag> Yeah, aprs.fi will reject packets at a an average rate of more than one per 30 seconds I think.
[21:53] <craag> Or it might just come up with a big red warning on your info page, I can't remember exactly.
[21:53] <SpeedEvil> so you could command it of the height to start at based on likely local conditions
[21:54] <craag> SpeedEvil: As long as you have demodulation on your payload, that would work.
[21:55] <Burninate> 1200 baud a GPS packet XY is 64 bits to 1 meter precision
[21:55] <Burninate> how much overhead is there in an APRS packet
[21:55] <craag> A lot of APRS trackers are TX-only with a slightly randomised transmit interval.
[21:55] <Burninate> 52 bits if you skimp and use integers
[21:56] <Burninate> *use a custom type, rather
[21:56] <Lunar_Lander> hi Dan-K2VOL
[21:56] <craag> Burninate: This is raw beacon packets from my aprs igate: http://aprs.fi/?c=raw&call=M0DNY-1&limit=50&view=normal
[21:57] <craag> But you can use a compressed format to reduce the packet length.
[21:58] <Burninate> I'm asking: why 2-3 seconds per packet and not 1/10 second per packet
[21:59] <craag> You have a 0.5 second preamble to open the squelch on the receiver (some igates are just handhelds)
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[22:00] <Burninate> something that transmits for 1/10 second every 10 seconds is still at a 5% load
[22:00] <craag> Then there's a packet header, some time and date data I think, and the packet contents, eg: M0DNY-1>APRX26,TCPIP*,qAC,T2SP:!5055.85NR00123.50W
[22:01] <Burninate> 10 seconds would give me sufficient update rate for last-ditch telemetry from the air, I think
[22:01] <craag> I've managed to use the compressed format to get about 1.5 seconds for the packet.
[22:01] <Burninate> from the ground, I take it I'll probably have trouble reaching a base station?
[22:02] <craag> Depends how your antenna lands I think.
[22:02] <Burninate> 1/2 seconds, rather
[22:03] <craag> But if it lands in a coverage area, there's a good chance that one packet in a 20 minutes period would make it through.
[22:03] <Burninate> assume it lands in a forest
[22:04] <craag> If it lands in a tree then your antenna is still off the ground! :D
[22:04] <Burninate> but it's also in a tree
[22:04] <craag> yep...
[22:04] <Burninate> a tree canopy is the worst place to land a plane
[22:04] <craag> mm
[22:04] <SpeedEvil> Burninate: lava
[22:04] <Burninate> but the most crippling part of that is that you don't know where in the canopy it is
[22:05] <SpeedEvil> Burninate: there are easy ways.
[22:05] <Burninate> you can't *see* the plane from below, and you're not above it
[22:05] <Burninate> if it's in a field, one can assume that they can roughly locate it
[22:05] <SpeedEvil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OW2UvW6xLP8&feature=youtube_gdata_player
[22:06] <craag> Anyway, it all depends on the coverage of digipeaters or igates in your area, and how well sited they are. But from 50m altitude I'd say you would have no problem getting an APRS packet out in most places.
[22:06] <craag> Note: I have no experience in airbone APRS, so there are better people to ask.
[22:06] <Burninate> freaky SpeedEvil
[22:06] <Burninate> a giant chainsaw?
[22:07] <Burninate> oh, an array of circular saws
[22:08] <Burninate> how about from 20m altitude on a lower branch of a 45m tall forest
[22:09] <Burninate> I had a while where I was trying to figure out both control-point lofting and aircraft retrieval
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[22:10] <Burninate> a potato gun mounting a tennis ball with a bowhunting reel was where I was hoping to go
[22:11] <Burninate> but we eventually stopped having trouble with that
[22:11] <Burninate> damn campus explosives rules...
[22:12] <SpeedEvil> oh!
[22:12] <SpeedEvil> see:
[22:12] <SpeedEvil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rw9jA7VWqw4&feature=youtube_gdata_player
[22:13] <SpeedEvil> I'm sure the above two videos could be combined in awesome ways
[22:13] <Burninate> I bought a pair of really nice metal ones in China - customs didn't like them
[22:14] <Burninate> or maybe their TSA, I was never sure
[22:15] <Burninate> this guy needs to look at crossbow bolts
[22:16] <Burninate> oh; he did
[22:22] <Burninate> SpeedEvil: If this is your thing, I'm on the lookout for a two-stage design that allows a more even application of force over a distance
[22:23] <Burninate> for a launcher catapult
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[22:31] <Burninate> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSU1jQoGIqo
[22:32] <Lunar_Lander> good night
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[22:48] <SpeedEvil> naah. I've seen the guys channel a couple of tines
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[22:50] <Burninate> this is what I'd take with me as a firearm substitute
[22:50] <Burninate> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TSrTF4Smak
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[22:56] <Burninate> not as awesome as the spearchucker, but more practical
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[23:11] <SpeedEvil> :-)
[23:12] <SpeedEvil> I assume you don't mean the 2.4 m long one, :-)
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[23:21] <Burninate> the double barrel bullpup in the second shot
[23:21] <Burninate> *second part of the video
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[23:27] <SpeedEvil> I do love 'hold muzzle against chrono' 'pull trigger' 'put weapon down' -'walk several steps'-, read chrono
[23:27] <SpeedEvil> though
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[00:00] --- Wed Oct 10 2012