highaltitude.log.20121008

[00:00] <DrLuke> there we go
[00:00] <SpeedEvil> woo
[00:00] <DrLuke> those visuals
[00:01] <DrLuke> it's as if I really was in space
[00:01] <russss> tbh
[00:01] <russss> I think NASA TV has the better audio
[00:01] <SpeedEvil> wow. a real bobblehead..
[00:01] <DrLuke> haha
[00:05] <russss> heh, they're shipping ice cream
[00:05] <russss> actual ice cream
[00:05] <russss> Dragon has a freezer on board
[00:05] <SpeedEvil> :-)
[00:07] <BrainDamage> reminds me of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenger_2#Crew_and_accommodation
[00:08] <russss> so fwiw, NASA TV is still relaying the flight control loop while these guys are talking on the spacex stream
[00:08] <BrainDamage> you guys are the only one to think of tea and crumpets on a tank :p
[00:08] <Randomskk> can you still stream nasa tv to vlc?
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[00:09] <russss> I believe if you use the ipad stream you can extract the MP4 link
[00:09] <Randomskk> wow. that does sound faffy.
[00:09] <russss> but I'm not sure how good the quality is
[00:09] <Randomskk> might just stick to flash then
[00:13] <SpeedEvil> oooh
[00:13] <SpeedEvil> more video of grasshopper
[00:23] <Randomskk> so NASA TV or the SpaceX feed?
[00:23] <russss> I'm still doing video from spacex, audio from nasa TV
[00:23] <Randomskk> heh
[00:23] <russss> but spacex has less delay, by a fairly significant margin
[00:24] <Randomskk> I've got it up on my projector now
[00:24] <Randomskk> 90" screen filling my wall :D
[00:29] <russss> ok now the spacex stream has decent audio
[00:29] <russss> so I'm switched to that
[00:29] <Randomskk> by decent you mean total silence except for a countdown every minute?
[00:30] <Randomskk> from 10m to now? :P
[00:30] <russss> heh
[00:30] <Randomskk> okay someone said something about stage two's something bleeder :P
[00:30] <Randomskk> oh good, soemthing is nominal
[00:30] <Randomskk> go go autosequence :D
[00:30] <Randomskk> this is great audio.
[00:32] <russss> heh I love the cryo fog
[00:33] <russss> chances of a pad abort? I say 40%.
[00:35] <SpeedEvil> probably lower now.
[00:36] <russss> heh
[00:39] <russss> woah, was that live video from the front of the first stage?
[00:39] <russss> pretty awesome
[00:39] <SpeedEvil> yes
[00:39] <SpeedEvil> I love the glowing engine bell
[00:41] <BrainDamage> and something flew by
[00:41] <BrainDamage> on the right side
[00:42] <SpeedEvil> aliens!
[00:45] <Randomskk> and only one thing on the pad caught fire :P
[00:45] <SpeedEvil> wow.
[00:45] <SpeedEvil> video all the way to meco
[00:46] <Randomskk> yay orbit
[00:46] <Darkside> no autofocus lol
[00:47] <SpeedEvil> the focus goes to infinity and beyond.
[00:48] <russss> so many video cameras
[00:48] <russss> they're just showing off now
[00:48] <Darkside> lol
[00:48] <Darkside> yup
[00:48] <SpeedEvil> cameras and nice clean comma
[00:48] <SpeedEvil> comms
[00:48] <Randomskk> SpeedEvil: lol jinxed it
[00:49] <SpeedEvil> :-)
[00:49] <russss> perhaps they can launch some comms satellites and build a better TDRSS
[00:49] <Randomskk> lol happy birthday
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[00:52] <russss> three successful launches is beginning to look like a bit less of a fluke now
[00:52] <Randomskk> yup.
[00:53] <SpeedEvil> oops. I thought it was two
[00:53] <SpeedEvil> bit yeah
[00:53] <Randomskk> they seem to have their shit pretty down pat.
[00:53] <Darkside> http://www.r00t.cz//dragon.jpg
[00:53] <russss> ah thanks for screenshotting it
[00:53] <Darkside> graphs!
[00:53] <russss> I am all about the graphs
[00:54] <russss> dude in the middle seems to have some live-updating propulsion system block diagram going on there as well
[00:54] <Randomskk> also a logitech g7 mouse I think
[00:54] <Randomskk> I love that they all have laptops as well as the triple monitors
[00:54] <russss> moar screens
[00:55] <Randomskk> also non full screen apps?
[00:55] <Randomskk> they appear to just be windowed things on Windows 7 or something
[00:55] <Randomskk> slightly sadmaking >_>
[00:55] <Randomskk> otoh graphs
[00:55] <BrainDamage> suddendly, power outage without backup generator
[00:55] <BrainDamage> u mad?
[00:56] <Randomskk> BrainDamage: I doubt the laptops would be much good.
[00:56] <BrainDamage> they'd probably transfer the control to another ground station
[00:56] <Randomskk> (and I rather imagine power supply to mission control is pretty good)
[00:56] <BrainDamage> but I'd bet elon would eat his liver
[00:56] <Randomskk> no, I think they'd probably have a working generator :P
[00:56] <BrainDamage> come on, let me have my unrealistic hypothesis :p
[00:57] <Randomskk> don't think there is another ground station in radio range anyway
[00:57] <Randomskk> at takeoff
[00:57] <russss> they mentioned Wallops and Newfoundland
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[00:58] <russss> anyhow, bed.
[00:59] <Randomskk> indeed
[00:59] <Randomskk> night
[01:00] <SpeedEvil> night
[01:01] <SpeedEvil> the spaces store. it doesn't have falcons.
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[03:41] <KyleYankan> My new call sign came in.From KB3LXF to K3YLE
[03:43] <KT5TK> Congrats! Get license plates for your car now!
[03:43] <KyleYankan> Heh, maybe, maybe. I just didn't beleive K3YLE was available.
[03:44] <KT5TK> I like the similarity to your name :)
[03:44] <KyleYankan> Preceisely the intention
[03:44] <KyleYankan> I mean, it is my name. witha 3 in it,
[03:45] <KT5TK> Are you doing cw? some long letters, but never mind if you're not contesting
[03:47] <KyleYankan> No, no CW for me. I've never been on HF either.
[03:48] <KyleYankan> To be honest, for the most part, I only hit simplex, or the occasional 2m/440 repeater
[03:48] <KyleYankan> but some friends are getting in on the action, so I decide dto update my call sign and such
[03:49] <KT5TK> Great! have fun with it and don't fall back spelling the old call ;)
[03:49] <KT5TK> I've had plenty of those call changes in the past
[03:50] <KT5TK> DH9MAW > DL4MDW > KF5IEX > AE5VN >KT5TK
[03:50] <KyleYankan> lol, yeah, gotta put a sticky note on my radio or something
[03:50] <KyleYankan> Wghy so many changes?
[03:50] <KT5TK> Two different license classes in Germany
[03:51] <KyleYankan> Oi, I gotcha
[03:51] <KT5TK> and then I made the General first,
[03:51] <KT5TK> Upgraded to Extra
[03:51] <KT5TK> and finaly got my vanity call
[03:52] <KyleYankan> Gotcha, I dig it
[03:53] <KT5TK> I actually still have DL4MDW and KT5TK
[03:56] <KT5TK> We've launched a pico this weekend but we couldn't recover it.
[03:57] <KT5TK> It landed in a 40 ft pine tree
[03:57] <KT5TK> http://tkrahn.dyndns.org/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=7399&g2_page=8
[03:59] <KT5TK> I figured it was easier to build a new transmitter board than climbing the tree
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[05:39] <griffonbot> @darksidelemm: @ioerror I managed to get the Tor Project logo on national TV, as part of a segment on #projecthorus! Tor sticker was on my laptop :-D [http://twitter.com/darksidelemm/status/255180670580690944]
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[06:29] Nick change: soafee-chan -> spacekitteh
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[08:26] <costyn> morning
[08:36] <nosebleedkt> morning ! 11:36 here !
[08:37] <gonzo_> you are late then!
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[10:56] <Tim> hello everyone
[10:56] <Tim> i b back from being gone
[10:58] <Darkside> that you, Mr Zaman?
[11:00] <Tim> Yesh
[11:00] <Darkside> welcome back!
[11:00] <Darkside> goign to do some mroe ballooning?
[11:00] <Tim> I'll be doing a launch end of this / beginning of next month
[11:00] <Tim> ya
[11:00] <Tim> someone wants me to send up a prototype of his whatever so i arranged a new mission
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[11:03] <Tim> just wanted to say Hi
[11:03] <Tim> Bye! :)
[11:03] <x-f> w00t, your launches are fun :)
[11:03] <Tim> o this one will be epic as well
[11:04] <Tim> but we'll get to it later. i guess i'm going to be extra lazy this time, using all electronic junk from last times and i guess 3d printing a housing, as i hate working with polystyrene
[11:04] <Tim> BB
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[11:05] <Darkside> er
[11:05] <Darkside> oh dear
[11:05] <Darkside> 3d printed housing might not be a good idea
[11:08] <x-f> Apex team tried it, it was almost good
[11:08] <Darkside> i'd think it wouldn't insulare enough
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[11:08] <Darkside> insulate*
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[11:19] <kokey> Darkside: the RFM22 library's 'test' example code, when doing a test_tx once per second, sounds a bit like the movie 'contact' over AM
[11:19] <kokey> RF22 I mean
[11:20] <Darkside> haha
[11:20] <Darkside> nice
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[11:25] <fsphil> that would have made that movie a lot shorter
[11:29] <eroomde> is that the movie in which some deaf guy preposterously has 3Mhz audible bandwidth and thus can identify that something is 'a pal signal' or somethign else equally punch-the-screen-writer-in-the-face worthy?
[11:30] <fsphil> that's it
[11:30] <Darkside> eroomde: well he goes "there's more here"
[11:30] <fsphil> good movie
[11:30] <Darkside> which is funny
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[11:30] <Darkside> oh guys
[11:31] <Darkside> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZBcZ2D44l4
[11:31] <Darkside> TV!
[11:31] <Darkside> crap recording
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[11:31] <Darkside> but its all we have atm
[11:32] <fsphil> nice wave
[11:32] <Darkside> i get a line in a bit
[11:33] <fsphil> just saw that bit
[11:34] <fsphil> ah, caught the landing
[11:34] <fsphil> that's pretty good
[11:34] <Darkside> pff
[11:34] <Darkside> it was from anther flight
[11:34] <Darkside> there's video from heaps of launches/landings in there
[11:34] <fsphil> aah cheeky
[11:35] <Darkside> we didn't even do a launch for totally wild, we did it for Scope
[11:35] <Darkside> since they're both on the same network, they used some of the same footage
[11:35] <Darkside> and some more footage we gave them
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[11:45] <JordanJohnson> I'm pretty sure I remember seeing you guys on scope! It was a few months ago right?
[11:46] <Darkside> yup
[11:48] <JordanJohnson> I saw you guys at LCA2012. Bought a balloon, just waiting on my FUNcube Dongle to arrive :)
[11:48] <Darkside> er
[11:48] <Darkside> you're planning on launching?
[11:48] <Darkside> yeah, i was on stage :P
[11:48] <Darkside> <- Mark Jessop
[11:49] <JordanJohnson> yeah that's the plan
[11:49] <Darkside> have you spoken to CASA yet?
[11:49] <Darkside> and where from?
[11:50] <JordanJohnson> nah haven't got that far yet... Haha.. Gotta do a lot more work and research first
[11:50] <Darkside> yeah :P
[11:51] <Darkside> though i'd start the CASA process asap
[11:51] <Darkside> i dunno who to talk to though
[11:51] <JordanJohnson> I'm up here in Newcastle, so if guessing I would have to travel west a good few hundred west
[11:51] <Darkside> depends
[11:52] <Darkside> run predictions
[11:52] <Darkside> see how the balloon flight path changes from week to week
[11:52] <Darkside> and based ont ime of day
[11:52] <JordanJohnson> How long is the approval process generally through CASA?
[11:52] <Darkside> a few months
[11:53] <Darkside> start working on a tracker :-)
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[11:55] <fsphil> nice to know there's a slower avaiation authority
[11:55] <JordanJohnson> cool! Yeah pretty excited about working on it. Studying Comp Eng here at UoN. I'm sure I'll be asking a lot of questions on here once I'm on uni break =P
[11:55] <Darkside> sure
[11:55] <Darkside> hrmm
[11:56] <Darkside> i know someone there
[11:57] <JordanJohnson> Brenton Schulz by chance?
[11:57] <Darkside> quite likely
[11:57] <Darkside> vk2mev
[11:58] <kokey> what's the max payload weight one can get away with using a non NOTAM setup and some party/foil balloons?
[11:58] <Darkside> in the UK, its based on max size
[11:58] <Darkside> in australia, it's based on weight
[11:58] <Darkside> 50g.
[11:58] <kokey> ah, interesting
[11:59] <Darkside> so a foil balloon is fine
[11:59] <kokey> weight including the balloon?
[11:59] <JordanJohnson> that's him! I've had a chat to him once or twice about radio ideas. Think he mentioned you guys :)
[11:59] <Darkside> kokey: that's the question, isn't it
[11:59] <Darkside> it depends how you interpret the laws
[11:59] <kokey> haha, ok
[11:59] <Darkside> we interpret it as payload weight, not balloon weight
[11:59] <Darkside> *but*
[11:59] <Darkside> i doubt casa meant it that way
[11:59] <kokey> oh well not planning to launch in AU so I'm not going to worry about that
[11:59] <Darkside> hehe
[12:00] <kokey> I guess I can quickly work out what payload I can hang on onto x size balloon
[12:01] <Darkside> JordanJohnson: he's a good guy to go to for radio stuff
[12:01] <Darkside> and he has all teh equipment to receive it :-)
[12:01] <Darkside> the funcube dongle is ok, but it's not that good by itself
[12:01] <Darkside> and i wouldn't rely on it as a primary receiver
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[12:05] <JordanJohnson> yeah he seems to have a lot of gear
[12:06] <kokey> don't tell that to the DAO
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[12:42] <eroomde> what kind of beverage do you drink when you're designing the power supple for an active antenna
[12:42] <eroomde> ?
[12:42] <eroomde> supply*
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[12:43] <Laurenceb> eroomde: are you a control expert?
[12:43] <eroomde> Bias tee!
[12:43] <eroomde> *chuckle*
[12:43] <Laurenceb> i have an ... issue
[12:43] <eroomde> Laurenceb: no
[12:43] <Laurenceb> :(
[12:43] <eroomde> but i do have a masters in it
[12:43] <eroomde> which has always struck me as a bit of a misnomer
[12:43] <Laurenceb> heh
[12:44] <Laurenceb> ok ill ask you
[12:44] <Laurenceb> so i have a solenoid with a strain guage on the shaft
[12:44] <Laurenceb> for force feedback
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[12:44] <Laurenceb> its driven by high frequency pwm - many khz
[12:44] <Laurenceb> and ive got a pid loop to control applied pressure
[12:45] <Laurenceb> but its oscillating at 50hz or so
[12:45] <Laurenceb> and i cant fix it with extra D term
[12:45] <Laurenceb> as the phase lag means that just makes it worse
[12:46] <Laurenceb> i could turn P right down and I up, but then it would be laggy
[12:46] <Laurenceb> whats the solution?
[12:47] <eroomde> well, you might have just found a local maxima for stability rather than the global one
[12:47] <eroomde> bounded oscillation usually just means a stable solution but not a particularly good one
[12:47] <Laurenceb> yeah, its +-50% buzzing
[12:48] <Laurenceb> mean pressure is spot on
[12:48] <eroomde> zeigler-nichols can help you tune the other parameters from Kp if you're seeing an oscillation with a known frequency
[12:48] <Laurenceb> yeah
[12:48] <Laurenceb> thats what i was trying
[12:48] <Laurenceb> ends up giving my basically an I controller
[12:49] <Laurenceb> actually... maybe that wont be so bad
[12:49] <Laurenceb> with a large I term it will start to become fast again
[12:49] <Laurenceb> ill give it a try
[12:49] <eroomde> that's usually the thing
[12:50] <eroomde> it's possible to match Ki and Kd to a Kp
[12:50] <eroomde> but chooseing the Kp in the first place can be hard
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[12:52] <Laurenceb> ill trust zeigler-nichols and have a play
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[13:01] <eroomde> Dan-K2VOL: thank you for that libk
[13:01] <eroomde> link*
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[13:03] <Dan-K2VOL> you're welcome ed
[13:04] <eroomde> my technical french makes progress a bit slow but i'm working through it
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[13:05] <kokey> during my first half of high school, most of the maths and science terms I was taught were more germanic
[13:06] <kokey> and towards the end they started to anglicise the maths terms
[13:06] <kokey> so many german technical terms seem familiar to me
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[13:22] <Laurenceb> https://www.google.com/search?q=stm32f3%20discovery&sugexp=chrome,mod%3D9&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&authuser=0&ei=1XxyUML8EY_JmQXWy4GYBw&biw=1058&bih=662&sei=13xyUPu9I-bKmgXltoCQBg
[13:22] <Laurenceb> trolling operation in progress
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[13:51] <Laurenceb> eroomde: http://i.imgur.com/2BmOG.png
[13:51] <Laurenceb> oops
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[13:56] <cuddykid> helium looks to have gone up in price
[13:56] <Dan-K2VOL> haha the understatement of the month
[13:56] <cuddykid> never remember balloon helium charging 79.99 for a T before
[13:56] <cuddykid> lol
[13:57] <Dan-K2VOL> what currency are you in cuddy?
[13:57] <cuddykid> £
[13:57] <cuddykid> pounds :)
[13:58] <Laurenceb> im suprised its even avaliable
[13:58] <Dan-K2VOL> ah you're still not too bad off, the T tank (291 cu ft, 8.2 cu m, 8200 liters) was being sold to us at £249
[13:58] <cuddykid> Dan-K2VOL: BOC T is 3.6cubic m
[13:59] <cuddykid> so works out roughly similar
[13:59] <Dan-K2VOL> yeah, it's crappy
[13:59] <Dan-K2VOL> we're into the era of hydrogen balloning. I was just researching flame arrestors
[13:59] <cuddykid> yep
[13:59] <Dan-K2VOL> here is a very good video on how they work: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWe84DyPIsg
[14:00] <Dan-K2VOL> nice demos too
[14:00] <Dan-K2VOL> BANG
[14:02] <cuddykid> hmm, might see if I can get something off the uni
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[14:05] <cuddykid> sent an email to see if I can hunt down the BOC orderer
[14:05] <cuddykid> i guess they get it far cheaper
[14:05] <Dan-K2VOL> cool
[14:13] <navrac_work> ping laurenceb
[14:13] <Laurenceb> hi
[14:14] <navrac_work> oew you an apology - the graph i did last night with the drift still on was using a big external 30mhz xtal - ~I forgot I took it off the frequency multiplier as it wa a bit noisy
[14:15] <Laurenceb> oh
[14:15] <navrac_work> only when i was clearing stuff off the board i noticed it stopped working when the xtal was out
[14:16] <navrac_work> put it back on the frequency multiplier and it went solid again ( although with a 32KHz ish fm modulation from hell
[14:19] <navrac_work> sorry - remind me never to play around with circuits after an afternoon in the pub - apologies for wasting your time
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[14:22] <Laurenceb> ok
[14:22] <Laurenceb> doesnt matter :P
[14:23] <navrac_work> still drifts - but only by 1hz
[14:25] <navrac_work> to be honest i dont think stable dominoex is possible at these frequencies using vctxo's - the pull required is only 0.003 ppm - which is too noise sensitive as 1v=5ppm and also because the linearity is rubbish on the txco's and varies too much with temperature.
[14:25] <navrac_work> so without a geedback loop of some kind pulling is a bit tricky
[14:26] <navrac_work> is /isnt
[14:27] <kokey> I suppose the switch to fracking for gas has affected the helium market
[14:30] <Laurenceb> yes
[14:30] <Laurenceb> id agree
[14:30] <Laurenceb> cool that its stable
[14:40] <navrac_work> im going to try to get it to run off frequency so a simple 29.7mhz tcxo can be used to stabilise it - cant find a cheap 30mhz one.
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[14:52] <Laurenceb> yeah they dont seem to exist at 30mhz
[14:57] <cuddykid> just 10 more airwires to route :D
[14:57] <cuddykid> now it gets difficult
[15:00] <Randomskk> the last couple are always the worst
[15:01] <Randomskk> when you're done consider ripping it all up and rerouting from scratch. you'll do a /much/ better job the second time
[15:01] <Randomskk> so long as you do it soon after doing it the first time. the whole problem stays in your head
[15:01] <Randomskk> be careful what you route first as well
[15:01] <Randomskk> generally ground, RF, power, clock, high speed data, low speed data
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[15:08] <russss> http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=42263
[15:08] <W0OTM> GM
[15:08] <W0OTM> im excited to launch our only 2012 balloon on Sunday
[15:10] <SpeedEvil> :-)
[15:10] <SpeedEvil> only so far!
[15:14] <eroomde> russss: yes yery interesting
[15:14] <x-f> here's the video for russss's link
[15:14] <eroomde> intrigued to hear what caused it
[15:14] <russss> yeah I saw the video, it looks like quite a few things fell off
[15:15] <russss> I'm not sure how much you'd expect the engine to fall apart if you shut it down at that point
[15:15] <eroomde> oh yes that's just guff
[15:15] <eroomde> i' amsolutely certain that the failure happened first, then the computer shut off the fuel valves going into what was left of the engine
[15:16] <eroomde> i am absolutely*
[15:16] <russss> yeah
[15:17] <Randomskk> one advantage of having nine engines I guess
[15:17] <eroomde> sure, but having engines really properly explode is not really the kind of thing you can say 'oh well, redudancy'
[15:17] <Randomskk> apparently it is :P
[15:17] <eroomde> that's a fine arguement if you say goes slightly over-pressure in the chamber and you turn it off as a precaution
[15:18] <eroomde> but stuff exploding is not going to convince people. they;re lucky the explosion was contained by the kevlar baffles
[15:18] <Dan-K2VOL> well, mission continuing to success is the kind of thing you can say "thank god for redundancy" :-)
[15:18] <russss> also
[15:18] <russss> apparently there was an orbcomm satellite on there as a secondary payload
[15:18] <Dan-K2VOL> where is the vid link?
[15:18] <Dan-K2VOL> reallly
[15:18] <Randomskk> yea
[15:18] <Dan-K2VOL> orbcomm could use some more
[15:18] <russss> but that did not get deployed to the target orbit because the second stage failed to re-ignite after Dragon deployment
[15:18] <Dan-K2VOL> really
[15:18] <eroomde> Dan-K2VOL: indeed
[15:18] <russss> they kept that quiet
[15:18] <gonzo__> should you nopt say, 'thank the engineers, for redundancy"?
[15:19] <russss> http://www.universetoday.com/97753/falcon-9-experienced-engine-anamoly-but-kept-going-to-orbit/
[15:19] <Dan-K2VOL> yes, actually
[15:19] <russss> there's one sentence which mentions it in that article
[15:19] <eroomde> but then if there is an explody failure mechanism on those engines, youneed to do something about that bigtime
[15:19] <eroomde> because the 2nd stage uses the same engines
[15:19] <Dan-K2VOL> yeah
[15:19] <eroomde> and the 2nd stage certainly doesn't have redundancy
[15:20] <russss> yeah
[15:20] <eroomde> russss: interesting
[15:22] <Randomskk> russss: the orbcomm thing seems a bit [citation needed]
[15:22] <Randomskk> find out soon I'm sure but the source appears to be a facebook post
[15:22] <russss> Randomskk: amusingly I found out about it via wikipedia
[15:22] <Dan-K2VOL> the second article linked mentions it
[15:22] <Randomskk> Dan-K2VOL: mentions it from its source which is a facebook post :P
[15:23] <russss> I make that 2 failures out of 41 launches of the Merlin 1C
[15:25] <cuddykid> Randomskk: should I ground copper pour it before routing?
[15:25] <Randomskk> typically I try to keep the entire bottom layer as a ground plane and route all signals and power on the top
[15:25] <Randomskk> then break the bottom layer as rarely as possible and for as short a trace distance as possible
[15:25] <Randomskk> but hey, see what works for you
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[15:26] <Laurenceb> heh anomaly
[15:27] <Laurenceb> looks like it blew up
[15:27] <cuddykid> ah ok, thanks Randomskk
[15:30] <eroomde> russss: Mr Musk is giving a talk at the royal aeronatical society in nov
[15:30] <eroomde> if you're interested
[15:30] <eroomde> it's free for all
[15:31] <eroomde> a bunch of us from work are going
[15:34] <WillDuckworth> that sounds good
[15:35] <WillDuckworth> ah - it says it's sold out
[15:35] <eroomde> hmm
[15:35] <eroomde> i guess not surprising
[15:35] <eroomde> we signed up a few months ago
[15:36] <grumbleist> http://www.meetup.com/Space-Entrepreneurs/
[15:36] <grumbleist> space left ?
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[15:37] <grumbleist> maybe not
[15:37] <eroomde> grumbleist: interesting
[15:37] <eroomde> do you know of this meetup group before?
[15:37] <eroomde> if you can decode that q into english
[15:38] <grumbleist> i signed up thu that a while back
[15:38] <grumbleist> never been, just wanted to hear elon
[15:38] <eroomde> yeah
[15:38] <eroomde> i met him a few times when i was at MIT, back when he had time to see smelly students
[15:39] <eroomde> and spacex was a slightly smaller affair
[15:39] <Laurenceb> grumbleist: it doesnt sound like space left to me
[15:39] <eroomde> he's not a super mega speaker but the content*presentation score is still very high
[15:40] <Laurenceb> "Space-Entrepreneurs"
[15:40] <Laurenceb> if it was left it'd be "Space comrades"
[15:41] <grumbleist> i rsvp-ed ages ago and got a spot. saw the rsvp button still on there but now it takes you to the aero site, so no sorry
[15:41] <eroomde> just scouring the members list to see if i know anyone
[15:41] <eroomde> i recognise one of the faces as an ardupilot developer
[15:42] <eroomde> and duncan law green i know of, chronicler of all CUSF activities since day 0
[15:42] <Laurenceb> haha
[15:42] <Laurenceb> ardupilot
[15:43] <eroomde> mandali khalesi i have come across a couple of times. i will leave that one there
[15:43] <eroomde> .
[15:43] <Laurenceb> thats a bit of an oxymoron
[15:43] <Laurenceb> ardu - crash and burn
[15:43] <Laurenceb> more like
[15:45] <russss> eroomde: heh, he's also giving a talk in Oxford earlier that week which I just signed up for. http://www.oxfordmartin.ox.ac.uk/event/1402
[15:45] <eroomde> oh yes
[15:45] <russss> but the RAE one sounds more interesting, except it's fully booked
[15:45] <eroomde> and right on my doorstep
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[15:47] <eroomde> russss: i might sign up to that talk too
[15:47] <eroomde> his snr is usually good
[15:47] <eroomde> though i have never seen him talk business and meta-stuff so much before
[15:48] <russss> wow, this is quite the list of talks http://aerosociety.com/Events/Event-List
[15:48] <eroomde> there's some very good stuff generally
[15:49] <eroomde> i went to an outstanding one buy one of the principle investigators of the columbia disaster report
[15:49] <eroomde> that was at astrium in stevenage
[15:49] <eroomde> the same guy who did the commentry to that film that is about 45 minutes of the shuttle launching in slow mo from various angles
[15:49] <russss> ah nice
[15:50] <Laurenceb> unless youre onboard
[15:50] <eroomde> probably the talk i would send every engineer to if i had to
[15:50] Action: russss is slightly ashamed to know exactly the film you're talking about
[15:51] <eroomde> it's a goodie
[15:51] <eroomde> hmm, i could probably get to the bloodhound one at cambridge
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[16:05] <cuddykid> nightmare
[16:05] <cuddykid> ripping it up and starting again lol
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[16:16] Action: Laurenceb has solenoid working
[16:18] <Laurenceb> http://i.imgur.com/wWW7F.png
[16:18] <eroomde> what fixed it?
[16:18] <Laurenceb> i turned off any filtering of the raw input
[16:18] <Laurenceb> so less lag but noise
[16:18] <Laurenceb> then used zeigler-nichols
[16:18] <eroomde> you know what the solution is right
[16:19] <eroomde> if only there was some kind of smoother than could be predictive, thus removing the phase lag
[16:19] <eroomde> hmmm.........
[16:19] <Laurenceb> i had to turn down the D a little
[16:19] <Laurenceb> but thats a mechanical issue
[16:19] <Laurenceb> theres some play in the mechanical setup
[16:19] <Laurenceb> and the solenoid has about 2mm of play
[16:19] <eroomde> sure, let's call that play 'process noise'
[16:19] <Laurenceb> so it hits the endstop and the D can make it go mad
[16:20] <eroomde> for the sake or argument
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[16:20] <eroomde> and then lets consider again if only there was some sort of smoother that could not have any phase lag because it was predictive
[16:20] <Laurenceb> im currently writing a median filter
[16:20] <Laurenceb> using quickselect
[16:20] <eroomde> you spelt kalman wrong
[16:21] <Laurenceb> and dma to grab about 10ms of data
[16:21] <Laurenceb> hehe
[16:21] <Laurenceb> its running on an F4
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[16:21] <eroomde> if you want to full force of my control masters, then you might want to look at how you can combine a kalman filter a state estimate with a linear quadratic regulator as a controller
[16:21] <Laurenceb> hmm
[16:22] <Laurenceb> ok ill read about linear quadratic regulators
[16:22] <Laurenceb> thanks
[16:22] <eroomde> which combine to be the optimal solution to the linear-quadratic-gaussian problem
[16:22] <eroomde> which is sort of where you start when you're interested in optimal control
[16:23] <eroomde> it's the point at which most people start thinking control theory is sexy
[16:23] <eroomde> which they are of course right to think
[16:23] <eroomde> cos it is
[16:25] <eroomde> and then you slide into H-infinity control methods, which are AWESOME but one of the hardest courses i took. but really very neat and satisfying stuff
[16:26] <eroomde> as ever, wikipedia entry on the subject enough to put you off forever
[16:27] <Laurenceb> im reading some lecture notes
[16:27] <Laurenceb> off google
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[16:28] <Laurenceb> it doesnt look _that_ hard
[16:28] <Laurenceb> but i dont see how im supposed to apply it?
[16:29] <Laurenceb> do i create a theoretical model?
[16:29] <Laurenceb> or measure step response?
[16:29] <eroomde> whose lecture notes and which of the things above are you reading?
[16:30] <eroomde> yes it is somewhat about creating theoretical models
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[16:31] <Laurenceb> www.stanford.edu/class/ee363/lectures/dlqr.pdf
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[16:33] Nick change: number10_ -> number10
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[16:38] <Laurenceb> ill try PID + median filtering
[16:38] <Laurenceb> most of my noise seems to be adc related
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[16:39] <Laurenceb> due to the piss poor power supply on the f4discovery
[16:39] <Laurenceb> so median should outperform mean
[16:39] <Laurenceb> andway, im off cya
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[18:43] <Laurenceb_> hi
[18:45] <SpeedEvil> hi
[18:49] <Laurenceb_> quickselect is awesome
[18:49] <Laurenceb_> http://pine.cs.yale.edu/pinewiki/QuickSelect
[18:50] <Laurenceb_> but eroomde is going to kill me for exceedingly goofy control filtering techniques
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[18:58] <Laurenceb_> navrac_work: ping
[18:59] <SpeedEvil> :-) .
[19:02] <Laurenceb_> i have spikey noise from the piss pooor supply on f4discovery
[19:03] <Laurenceb_> so media filter works nicely
[19:05] <SpeedEvil> SMPS?
[19:06] <Laurenceb_> nope, just usb power and vreg that is powering the whole board
[19:06] <Laurenceb_> with narrow traces that go in bad places
[19:06] <SpeedEvil> ah
[19:06] <Laurenceb_> *median
[19:06] <Laurenceb_> simple PID seems to work well enough now
[19:07] <Laurenceb_> - im trying to control force from a solenoid using a strain gauge built into the shaft
[19:09] <SpeedEvil> to what bittage?
[19:09] <Laurenceb_> 12bit adc
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[19:44] <AkkerKid> hello everyone! I'm hoping to put together a balloon with my school club. I'm going to need help tracking it if it goes out of range. Is there anyone around South Florida who'd be able to keep an eye on my transmissions if I lose it in Southern Florida, USA?
[19:47] <Laurenceb_> cant you use APRS?
[19:48] <AkkerKid> Sorry, I'm kinda new to this. I understand microcontroller programming a bit but long range coms are beyond me yet.
[19:48] <AkkerKid> So, what's APRS?
[19:50] <mclane> APRS = automatic packet radio system
[19:51] <mclane> see www.aprs.org
[19:51] <mclane> based on amateur radio, i.e. you need a license
[19:52] <mclane> and there is a nic tracking system: www.aprs.fi
[19:52] <AkkerKid> wow this is a fairly serious thing.
[19:52] <mclane> I mean nice
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[19:54] <mclane> alternatively, you can go for a spot tracker (but this is somehow expensive)
[19:55] <mclane> www.findmespot.com
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[20:35] <AkkerKid> So if I get a Micro-Trak AIO HA and an amature radio license, I'm all set?
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[20:48] <kokey> anyone use the TinyGPS library?
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[20:54] <hessu_> AkkerKid: Basically, yes.
[20:54] Nick change: hessu_ -> oh7lzb
[20:55] <oh7lzb> If you want to find the balloon from the woods, you might want to set up APRS receive capability in your chase cars.
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[20:55] <oh7lzb> It might land in a place with no APRS network coverage, in which case you'll need to drive up closer to receive it.
[20:58] <SpeedEvil> and then there is the awkward issue of hard landings
[20:59] <SpeedEvil> if it lands and dies, you need a recent position as close to the ground to find it
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[21:07] <SpeedEvil> http://arstechnica.com/science/2012/10/that-smooth-spacex-launch-turns-out-one-of-the-engines-exploded/
[21:07] <SpeedEvil> who was it yesterday that thought they saw something,,,
[21:08] <BrainDamage> me
[21:09] <russss> this is SpaceX's statement on it: http://www.spacex.com/press.php?page=20121008
[21:09] <russss> "We know the engine did not explode, because we continued to receive data from it."
[21:10] <russss> I think there's potentially a difference of opinion on what exactly constitutes "explode" here
[21:10] <SpeedEvil> :-)
[21:10] <SpeedEvil> 'not detonate'
[21:11] <eroomde> yes
[21:11] <eroomde> that'll do
[21:11] <russss> it would be interesting to see exactly what telemetry they got from where
[21:11] <russss> but they're presumably not going to reveal that
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[21:11] Action: Laurenceb_ is running his solenoid at 80volts
[21:11] <Laurenceb_> 5amps 80 volts
[21:11] <Laurenceb_> (peak)
[21:11] <Laurenceb_> almost 1KN peak for 100ms
[21:11] <eroomde> i've seen engines that have come apart with some velocity and not at the original interfaces
[21:11] <russss> heh
[21:11] <eroomde> but whose armoured shielded twisted pair cables have held on to the embedded sensors
[21:12] <russss> "Panels designed to relieve pressure within the engine bay were ejected to protect the stage and other engines."
[21:12] <russss> this whole thing is beginning to sound a bit euphemistic
[21:12] <eroomde> that sounds weird
[21:12] <SpeedEvil> russss: sounds gentle, doesn't it.
[21:12] <eroomde> who puts pressure releif panels in?
[21:12] <eroomde> surely it's just in pumbing or a fuel tank
[21:13] <SpeedEvil> if you have a cluster, with inter engine shielding, then blowout panels to the sides do make sense
[21:14] <eroomde> really?
[21:14] <SpeedEvil> maybe
[21:14] <Laurenceb_> hehe russs
[21:14] <SpeedEvil> I'm imagining not the whole bell is shielded
[21:14] <Laurenceb_> yeah they descried this
[21:14] <SpeedEvil> just the pumps
[21:15] <Laurenceb_> theres strong kevlar honeycomb between the engines
[21:15] <Laurenceb_> iirc
[21:15] <Laurenceb_> the bottom cover is designed to be weakest
[21:15] <russss> I guess the cool thing is if you launch more engines then, as well as having redundancy, you can get a better statistical picture of how good your engines are
[21:15] <SpeedEvil> true
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[21:15] <eroomde> russss: good idea, comrade
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[21:16] <SpeedEvil> if you have 2 engine out capability, and nine engines, you're likely to get a significant number
[21:16] <russss> this is the best photo I've found http://www.universetoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/20101001_integrated.jpg
[21:16] <SpeedEvil> more partial failures
[21:17] <SpeedEvil> ...
[21:17] <SpeedEvil> are those covers round the entire engine bell?
[21:17] <eroomde> those turbopump exhausts are so ugly
[21:17] <eroomde> turbopumps having a separate exhaust is so ugly
[21:17] <russss> heh
[21:17] <SpeedEvil> or is that a partial diameter thing on the end
[21:18] <eroomde> http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/spacecraft/russia/n1-1.jpg
[21:18] <russss> I wonder if the separate turbopump is an ease of assembly thing
[21:19] <SpeedEvil> http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/elon-musk-9.jpg
[21:19] <Laurenceb_> russss: its designed to be simple and cheap
[21:19] <eroomde> russss: they're easier to design
[21:19] <eroomde> not sure they're particularly easier to make
[21:19] <SpeedEvil> so all the turbopumps and combustion chambers are buried
[21:20] <SpeedEvil> hence I guess 'blow out panels'
[21:20] <eroomde> it's called a gas generator cycle
[21:20] <eroomde> the exhaust is fuel rich and that fuel just gets dummped overboard
[21:20] <Laurenceb_> yeah nice and simple
[21:20] <SpeedEvil> I wonder how many cameras are on that.
[21:20] <eroomde> the russians, who tend to get higher performance out of their engines, use a 'staged combustion' cycle
[21:20] <SpeedEvil> if it was me, I'd have about half a dozen per engine.
[21:20] <eroomde> where the turbopumo exhaust also goes into the combustion chamber
[21:20] <SpeedEvil> downlink able on oopses
[21:20] <eroomde> that buys you a few tens of seconds extra Isp usually
[21:21] <russss> I would not be entirely unsurprised if they come out with a high-speed video of the engine exploding
[21:21] <SpeedEvil> russss: damn.
[21:21] <russss> they certainly seemed to have plenty of cameras
[21:21] <SpeedEvil> russss: that would be rather awesome
[21:21] <SpeedEvil> comma have certainly changed analysis.
[21:21] <Laurenceb_> i read that the orbcomm payload wasnt put into the correct orbit
[21:21] <russss> Orbital Sciences are testing their new rocket soon I think, with the NK-33 engines
[21:22] <SpeedEvil> 'you have these four sets of eight measurement'
[21:22] <Laurenceb_> as stage 2 didnt have enough fuel
[21:22] <russss> should be interesting
[21:22] <SpeedEvil> vs 'pervasive data'
[21:22] <Laurenceb_> after making up some extra from stage 1
[21:22] <russss> Laurenceb_: ah now that would make some sense, but I don't believe there's been any official confirmation yet
[21:22] <Laurenceb_> but theres no offical info
[21:22] <SpeedEvil> interesting
[21:22] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[21:22] <russss> I heard that stage 2 didn't relight at all
[21:22] <Laurenceb_> youd think that stage 1 would have got extra gravity losses
[21:23] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: they shut down to throttle to 5g anyway
[21:23] <SpeedEvil> so maybe not that much
[21:23] <russss> I was also under the (perhaps mistaken) impression that the first stage has enough surplus propellant to get it to the right place even if engines do fail
[21:23] <russss> they did say that the first stage burned for ~30secs longer
[21:24] <eroomde> if it's a common fuel tank then provided the max thrust is high enough, you should be able to get the same momentum transfer even if you loose a few engines, as the others just burn the same number of gallons, but take longer to do it
[21:24] <eroomde> ignoring gravity losses
[21:24] <eroomde> which i guess you can't
[21:25] <russss> heh
[21:26] <SpeedEvil> notfor stage 1 at least
[21:27] <russss> no date yet: http://www.orbital.com/Antares/
[21:27] <russss> still "October"
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[21:29] <SpeedEvil> also fun
[21:29] <eroomde> eternal october
[21:29] <SpeedEvil> I want to see motpre of grasshopper.
[21:30] <eroomde> i want to see it hop proper
[21:30] <SpeedEvil> the first one was kinda weak.
[21:34] <eroomde> i guess you don't mess around with that kind of investment
[21:34] <eroomde> i suspect our first hops will be like that
[21:35] <eroomde> well, they'll be tethered
[21:35] <eroomde> but just a startup, get 2 or 3 secs of inertial data, land
[21:37] <SpeedEvil> :-)
[21:37] <SpeedEvil> and yes, I quite agree.
[21:38] <SpeedEvil> but I still want to see it beat dc-x's record
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[22:29] <Laurenceb_> wow
[22:29] <Laurenceb_> inpressive launch truck
[22:31] <Laurenceb_> apparently its powered by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NK-33 ?
[22:31] <russss> I yes
[22:31] <russss> good soviet engines
[22:32] <Laurenceb_> http://www.ghielectronics.com/catalog/product/351
[22:32] <Laurenceb_> interesting device
[22:32] <Laurenceb_> horrific firmware
[22:32] <Laurenceb_> .NET ?! wtf
[22:33] <Randomskk> har har
[22:33] <Laurenceb_> bare metal on F4 isnt too hard
[22:34] <Laurenceb_> wish there were some good usb host libs
[22:36] <zyp> write one? shouldn't be very hard if the amount of devices you need to support is limited
[22:45] <Laurenceb_> i think there is ST code for CDC-ACM
[22:45] <Laurenceb_> i might try it
[22:45] <Laurenceb_> i was thinking of using for phones on a balloon
[22:46] <Laurenceb_> would be simple to set up
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[00:00] --- Tue Oct 9 2012