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[07:27] <fsphil> on topic: http://hackaday.com/2012/10/02/weather-balloon-payload-that-almost-guides-itself-back-to-you/
[07:28] <fsphil> they have quite a bit of work to do :)
[07:31] <costyn> fsphil: hehe indeed
[07:32] <costyn> nasty spin right there
[07:33] <costyn> looks like some sort of line-over
[07:35] <UpuWork> would be amazing however "spin"
[07:36] <costyn> actualy probably during deployment it was already spinning, and when it deployed the steering lines were twisted up straight away assymetrically, making the parafoil spin like it does
[07:38] <costyn> happens to skydivers too, especially with tiny pocket rocket chutes which are very skittish and sensitive to body position at deployment
[07:38] <eroomde> is it worth 500 word comments about added mass effects on parachute dynamics in a blog comment
[07:38] <eroomde> life's great breakfast concundrum
[07:38] <fsphil> will anyone read it?
[07:39] <eroomde> zackly
[07:39] <costyn> they will, but will they care? :)
[07:39] <costyn> at least it would be nice to have 1 informed comment on there
[07:39] <costyn> well there's one about the pilot chute
[07:43] <eroomde> google knows me
[07:43] <eroomde> if i google 'latex', the entire front page is the typesetting engine
[07:44] <costyn> I think it would've worked if they had static line deployed the pilot chute straight out of the plane, let it drop for a bit to stabilize and then pull the main out. Also, they need much much shorter lines
[07:45] <eroomde> yes they definitely need shorter line
[07:45] <eroomde> i do not understand what they were trying to do with that
[07:45] <eroomde> you need stiffness in yaw
[07:46] <eroomde> radio 4
[07:46] <eroomde> 'the best physics teachers do turn out to be biologists because they struggle to understand it'
[07:46] <eroomde> YES
[07:47] <eroomde> i hope lots of biologists were lstening
[07:47] <costyn> there, I posted a comment
[07:48] <fsphil> I was rubbish at biology
[07:48] <eroomde> rewolff?
[07:48] <fsphil> s/was/still am/
[07:48] <costyn> eroomde: no
[07:48] <costyn> Your comment is awaiting moderation.
[07:48] <costyn> apparently
[07:48] <eroomde> BAE and EADS merging
[07:48] <eroomde> fills me with dread
[07:48] <fsphil> that can't end well
[07:48] <eroomde> they're allready massive, slow, ship, overpriced dinosaurs individually
[07:48] <fsphil> mergers rarely do
[07:48] <eroomde> shit*
[07:50] <costyn> rewolffs idea might work, depending on were on the parafoil you hang it before deployment
[07:50] <eroomde> that wasn't u tho then
[07:51] <costyn> nope
[07:53] <eroomde> my poor friend who is a teacher in oxford, but who i have known since age 4, has diabetes
[07:53] <eroomde> and so he uses words like 'hypo'
[07:53] <eroomde> as a nound for a hypoglycaemic attack
[07:53] <eroomde> sent me a very very very wierd text at about 1am
[07:53] <eroomde> just emailed me
[07:54] <eroomde> Now that was some hypo! I hope the Vth Form don't have anything too weird written/spilled on their work -- and that they're not expecting any essays back tomorrow! Glad to be able to make sense of the world again...
[07:54] <eroomde> Inadvertently, I initiated the use of what became perhaps the most middle class emergency treatment ever employed: veal meatballs and potato & pea crush. Very nice too. As far as I remember.
[07:57] <Darkside> eroomde: just had a big discussion with the signal processing lecturer here
[07:57] <Darkside> about how he wants to teach kalman filters
[07:57] <eroomde> uhuh
[07:57] <Darkside> what was the type you were talking about?
[07:57] <Darkside> unscented?
[07:58] <eroomde> well, they come in all sorts of flavours
[07:58] <Darkside> the ones that "aren't shit"
[07:58] <Darkside> or "don't stink"
[07:58] <eroomde> "don;t stink"
[07:58] <Darkside> i think might be the phrase
[07:58] <eroomde> yes
[07:58] <Darkside> heh
[07:58] <eroomde> hence unscented
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[07:58] <Darkside> heh
[07:58] <eroomde> well, to me kalman filters are completely easy, *if* you get taught the intuition first
[07:58] <Darkside> something about not assuming the noise is gaussian
[07:58] <eroomde> which involves some drawings and pretending you're a robot
[07:59] <Darkside> or has any particular colour
[07:59] <Darkside> or is that particle filters
[07:59] <eroomde> Darkside: well yeah, classical kalman filters assume linear dynamics and gaussian measurement and process noise. the unscented one basically is a numberical approximation for not gaussian (but still should be unimodel) distributions and random dyanmics
[08:00] <eroomde> but where the distributions can be anything, multimodal or whatever (I am either in this room or this room in a house localisation problem) then particle filters are the way
[08:00] <eroomde> at least, the current state of the art
[08:01] <eroomde> but basically if it's unimodal, i try and go for some form of kalmany type thing. just because it's nice computationally
[08:02] <Darkside> right
[08:02] <eroomde> but yes, ask the lecturer to explain the intuition first, eg a robot which starts off with a gaussian prior on where it is along some axis, and then it moves some distance with some confidence (the update step) which will give you a new position with a slightly lower confidence
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[08:03] <eroomde> because in the update step, you *convolve* the prior with the movement (update) step
[08:04] <eroomde> eg 'i think i am at 4m with a variance of 0.5m. i will now move forward with my odometers 3m but there is a variance of 0.2m cos i don; trust my odometers that much'
[08:05] <eroomde> so to get the nest estimate of the position you convolve those two and will get that you're at 7m with a variance of like 0.7m
[08:05] <eroomde> so that's the 'update' step of the kalman filter, and that removes information (the gaussian is wider)
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[08:05] <eroomde> then the robot has a little sonar which it can use to measure it's position from a wall which is at 0m on this axis
[08:06] <eroomde> and that says you're at 7.4m with a variance of 0.1m
[08:06] <eroomde> so then you multiply that new gaussian (multiply rather than convolve) with the prediciton of where you were from the movement step, which was 7m with a variance of 0.7
[08:07] <eroomde> and that will give you a new gaussian whose mean will be the average of the measurement at thee prediction means, weighted by their variences
[08:07] <eroomde> so like 7.3m or whatever
[08:08] <eroomde> and the variance will be reduced, because that's what happens when you multiply gaussians, the variences add up like resistors in parallel,
[08:08] <eroomde> so it will be like 0.08m (i'm guessing, not actually worked it out)
[08:09] <Darkside> ok
[08:09] <eroomde> anyway, so this is all much clearer with a diagram
[08:09] <Darkside> heh
[08:09] <Darkside> i can see that
[08:09] <eroomde> but you end up with a gaussian which is higher and thinner than both the predicted position and the measurement position
[08:09] <eroomde> and now we have completed a cycle of the kalman filter
[08:10] <eroomde> which is an update/predicition step and a measurement step
[08:10] <eroomde> and so now our new state estimate because the prior for the next interation of the filter
[08:10] <eroomde> the measurement step is just bayes rule
[08:10] <eroomde> and the movement step is from the law of total probability
[08:11] <eroomde> and it's really as simple as that
[08:11] <eroomde> seriously if i ever got a tattoo, it would be bayes rule
[08:12] <eroomde> so having got that predict->measure->predict->measure thing intuited, i'd talk about how you can track hidden states
[08:12] <eroomde> eg estimating the velocity of something just from position measurements
[08:13] <eroomde> which is one of those things that once you understand it, you have no excuse for ever doing velocity as '(pos2-pos2)/dt' ever again
[08:13] <eroomde> even on a micro
[08:13] <eroomde> pos2-pos1*
[08:13] <eroomde> where is your bot when i need it Darkside
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[08:38] <eroomde> bloodhound ssc rocket test live stream at 1pm uk time
[08:39] <eroomde> http://www.bloodhoundssc.com/rocket
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[09:01] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[09:02] <eroomde> hello Lunar_Lander
[09:02] <Lunar_Lander> how's life?
[09:02] <eroomde> you might be interested in a the live test firing of the bloodhouse SSC rocket today
[09:02] <eroomde> at 1pm UK time (1200 GMT)
[09:02] <eroomde> life is medium. i have the flu
[09:02] <eroomde> you?
[09:02] <Lunar_Lander> sounds interesting
[09:02] <eroomde> http://www.bloodhoundssc.com/rocket
[09:02] <Lunar_Lander> well, I passed maths and now physics is coming up
[09:02] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[09:03] <eroomde> good
[09:03] <eroomde> well done
[09:03] <Lunar_Lander> thanks
[09:04] <Lunar_Lander> so this is a rocket car?
[09:04] <eroomde> yes
[09:05] <eroomde> hoping to break the land speed record
[09:05] <eroomde> it's both a jet engine and a rocket
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[09:09] <Lunar_Lander> cool!
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[09:25] <Lunar_Lander> eroomde, I think his idea of inspiring people for engineering is a good one
[09:25] <Lunar_Lander> but I somehow think it is sad that not many people will notice the car
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[09:33] <Lunar_Lander> does anybody of you have Richard Noble's book "Thrust" and if yes is it a good read?
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[10:06] <costyn> eroomde: sounds interesting, I'll definitely have a look
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[10:15] <eroomde> costyn: i've no idea either way
[10:15] <eroomde> will be interesting to watch
[10:15] <eroomde> the hybrid is a bit wierd
[10:15] <eroomde> it's more like a tribrid
[10:15] <eroomde> but nvm, if it works it works. it's freebie for jubby afterall
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[10:53] <costyn> eroomde: hows this bloodhound engine related to the one you're working on?
[10:54] <SpeedEvil> bloodhound engine enables watching of xfiles.
[10:55] <SpeedEvil> oooh - looks neat
[10:55] <fsphil> silly mammal
[10:56] <costyn> wat
[10:56] <SpeedEvil> bloodhound gang.
[10:57] <costyn> ah... i missed the reference
[10:59] <eroomde> costyn: nothing to do with it
[10:59] <eroomde> it's just a basic hybrid
[10:59] <fsphil> not even mulder and scully could have solved that one costyn
[10:59] <eroomde> infact it's a bit weird really
[11:00] <eroomde> using a psiton engine to drive an oxidier pump
[11:00] <eroomde> i do not understand that one particularly
[11:01] <costyn> I see
[11:01] <eroomde> the jet engine produces about 130,000hp
[11:02] <eroomde> so you can happily take 100hp from it from the bypass or something, to power the pump
[11:02] <eroomde> 1000*
[11:02] <costyn> heh
[11:02] <eroomde> instead they add a bloody piston petrol engine with a lot of associated faff
[11:02] <eroomde> the only reason i can see them doing it is for PR
[11:02] <costyn> that would be a big pump
[11:02] <eroomde> that tediously inevitable top gear special on it
[11:02] <costyn> hehehe
[11:02] <eroomde> where jeremy clarkson will get to say
[11:03] <eroomde> "And the use a Cosworth F1 Engine..... [dramatic pause] *as a fuel pump*"
[11:03] <eroomde> they*
[11:03] <SpeedEvil> or more sensibly, because the jet does not have an easy PTO
[11:03] <eroomde> i guess it makes it easier to test the rocket engine in isolation
[11:03] <costyn> :)
[11:05] <eroomde> but it does have one
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[11:08] <eroomde> i like richard noble's poshness
[11:09] <eroomde> blood hound comes out as bludhund
[11:09] <eroomde> children are learning sarnce
[11:10] <eroomde> neil armstrong inspared hundreds of children into carrers in sarnce
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[11:15] <costyn> hehehee
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[11:31] <Lunar_Lander> eroomde, the website countdown has run down but in the video they still say in the crawl that the test is at 1 pm
[11:31] <Lunar_Lander> and it still shows the Richard Noble talk
[11:38] <costyn> Lunar_Lander: let me know if anything happens
[11:38] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[11:38] <Lunar_Lander> I'll be afk in a few minutes
[11:39] <Lunar_Lander> costyn, still only people talking in a loop
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[11:46] <eroomde> note the ringslot parachute in the animation
[11:47] <costyn> eroomde: meh... some guy already posted what I said before his was moderated on the "guided weatherballoon HAD thread". now I just look like I'm repeating what he said
[11:47] <eroomde> happens
[11:48] <costyn> guess so
[11:56] <eroomde> todays hackaday comments are tomorrow fish and chip wrappers
[11:57] <costyn> hehe
[11:58] <staylo> two bits don't make a byte
[12:01] <eroomde> come on webfeed
[12:01] <eroomde> inspire me to do sarnce
[12:01] <BrainDamage> eroomde: do you print every webpage? to visualize them?
[12:02] Action: Laurenceb is struggling to give a shit
[12:02] <Laurenceb> about bloodhound
[12:04] <eroomde> ?
[12:05] <BrainDamage> to literally turn hackaday comments to fish and chip wrappers
[12:05] <fsphil> stream has started
[12:05] <eroomde> yep
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[12:06] <fsphil> bangs are good
[12:07] <eroomde> inknew they'd come back into fashion
[12:07] <fsphil> I wonder if CISCO was involved
[12:08] <costyn> fsphil: not sure, they're not mentioned at all
[12:10] <eroomde> oh cisco
[12:11] <costyn> as someone who works with Cisco equipment everyday, all I can say is 'meh'
[12:12] <eroomde> we have a pan tilt cctv too
[12:12] <eroomde> for our firing bay
[12:12] <eroomde> there is jubby
[12:13] <costyn> htp ?
[12:14] <eroomde> high tesp peroxide
[12:14] <eroomde> hydrogen peroxide >90% concentration
[12:14] <eroomde> test*
[12:14] <costyn> why is it in simple plastic cans?
[12:14] <costyn> oh nasty stuff
[12:14] <eroomde> i can testify hazchem suits suck balls in the summer
[12:14] <SpeedEvil> costyn: because plastic can are fine
[12:15] <costyn> SpeedEvil: but why not 1 big container?
[12:16] <eroomde> probably transport cost
[12:16] <eroomde> it's a bitch to buy and transport
[12:16] <costyn> I see
[12:18] <SpeedEvil> transporting it in a 'normal' tanker has fun issues.
[12:18] <SpeedEvil> primarily that the tiniest contaminent can cause a runaway decomposition
[12:18] <eroomde> UpuWork: take note
[12:18] <eroomde> on the streaming kit
[12:18] <BrainDamage> if you'd spill it by accident, say on concrete, wouldn't that be sufficient to catalyze decomposition?
[12:19] <eroomde> concrete depends
[12:19] <eroomde> probably not if it was clean
[12:19] <jonsowman> tis on bbc news atm
[12:19] <eroomde> ClF5 will burn concrete and sand and all sorts
[12:19] <eroomde> that's the nastiest oxidiser in the history of the universe
[12:19] <BrainDamage> do you mean ClF3 ?
[12:20] <eroomde> well, either
[12:20] <eroomde> both have been synthesised and used on rockets
[12:20] <BrainDamage> and yes, I'd stay away an oxidizer that burns asbestos
[12:20] <costyn> haha
[12:20] <SpeedEvil> surely positrons are the nastiest oxidiser in the universe?
[12:21] <fsphil> are you positive?
[12:22] <eroomde> v thrilling
[12:22] <eroomde> i suspect we'll be seeing a lot of clips
[12:23] <eroomde> their oxidiser pump really is an interesting thing
[12:23] <fsphil> well that's depressing music
[12:24] <eroomde> build a rocket boys!
[12:24] <eroomde> by elbow
[12:24] <eroomde> also the name of the album
[12:32] <eroomde> in the office we have invetned the bloodhound streaming drinking game
[12:32] <eroomde> a finger every time you hear 'cisco' or 'sharing' or 'openess'
[12:32] <costyn> heh
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[12:34] <navrac> i thought it was being fired up at 1:30?
[12:35] <navrac> the sounds died on this laptop so I'm having to guess whats going on
[12:36] <eroomde> trending on twitter!
[12:36] <eroomde> multi-media
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[12:41] <Laurenceb> ok im really not giving a shit now
[12:41] <Laurenceb> twitter
[12:41] <Laurenceb> *facepalm*
[12:42] <Laurenceb> also this guy needs to shut his face up and fire some rockets
[12:42] <costyn> Laurenceb: +1
[12:42] <navrac> +1
[12:43] <Laurenceb> im in a bad mood today
[12:43] <fsphil> hashtag moody
[12:43] <Laurenceb> someone just emailed for instructions in how to plug a usb cable into a socket
[12:44] <navrac> there must be a youtube video you can send them
[12:44] <Laurenceb> "its getting power but no connection"
[12:44] <Laurenceb> me: "is it plugged in properly?"
[12:44] <Laurenceb> turns out they jammed it in upside down
[12:45] <fsphil> that might slightly break it
[12:45] <Laurenceb> luckly it seems to have survived
[12:45] <eroomde> change job Laurenceb
[12:45] <Laurenceb> heh
[12:46] <navrac> tell them to unpug it, turn the pc upside down and plug it in again
[12:46] <Laurenceb> lol
[12:52] <navrac> people coming in at last
[12:56] <eroomde> we've had to drink 21 times in the last 10 mins
[12:56] <eroomde> 22
[12:56] <eroomde> 23
[12:56] <eroomde> 24
[12:57] <eroomde> 'share', 'cisco' and 'open' are they keywords
[12:57] <fsphil> cisco alone would be enough to get you drunk
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[12:58] <MrScienceMan> Laurenceb> turns out they jammed it in upside down
[12:58] <MrScienceMan> how is that even possible
[12:58] <eroomde> jubby
[12:58] <eroomde> at last
[12:59] <eroomde> mohwk
[12:59] <Laurenceb> lobotomy
[12:59] <Laurenceb> thats all
[13:00] <Laurenceb> i was explaining about sensor adhesives the other day to some guys from MRC
[13:00] <Laurenceb> they asked me what an adhesive was
[13:02] <eroomde> 'non standard socket screws'
[13:02] <eroomde> what a company name
[13:03] <MrScienceMan> CEO is a simple man
[13:03] <eroomde> i think i will rename our company
[13:04] <MrScienceMan> http://i.imgur.com/a4CVG.jpg
[13:04] <eroomde> 'various research things to do with rocket propulsion but also other interesting things on a consultancy basis ltd'
[13:04] <MrScienceMan> thats a great name
[13:08] <BrainDamage> is there a skip forward functionality for live streams? like a button that if too many people press it the guy gets a message to cut it off
[13:08] <fsphil> catchy
[13:08] <costyn> BrainDamage: haha that would be great
[13:08] <MrScienceMan> oor a slap
[13:08] <fsphil> I'm sure CISCO could arrange that
[13:09] <MrScienceMan> remote delivery of neurotoxins over ip
[13:11] <eroomde> 'it's like a mistress'
[13:11] <eroomde> andy green doing his bit for dispelling the meyth that this is just boys having fun
[13:12] <Darkside> MrScienceMan: some day i'm goign to invent a device that allows you to punch someone in the face over th einternet
[13:13] <costyn> Darkside: http://bash.org/?4281 source? :)
[13:13] <Darkside> at least someone knew it
[13:13] <costyn> of course
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[13:15] <MrScienceMan> Darkside: not if i beat you to the punch
[13:16] <fsphil> I'd just be happy with a remote way to turn someones PC off
[13:16] <gonzo__> turning a person off would be preferable
[13:18] <eroomde> fucking jubb
[13:18] <eroomde> he is probably the only rocket scientist i the world who would choose to look like that
[13:19] <Darkside> ?
[13:19] <eroomde> live feed Darkside
[13:19] <Darkside> of what
[13:20] <eroomde> bloodhound ssc test
[13:20] <eroomde> google quickly
[13:20] <Darkside> link
[13:20] <eroomde> missed it
[13:20] <Darkside> ff
[13:21] <staylo> don't worry, there's still plenty of waffle
[13:21] <eroomde> that's bad
[13:22] <eroomde> that should not be on fire
[13:22] <Darkside> when are they testing?
[13:22] <Darkside> oh dear
[13:22] <BrainDamage> http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/LIVE-STREAM-Bloodhound-rocket-test/story-17021454-detail/story.html
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[13:22] <BrainDamage> you're still in time for a replay
[13:22] <eroomde> Darkside: replay happening
[13:22] <eroomde> get tere quick
[13:22] <Darkside> hrm
[13:22] <Darkside> that looks interesting
[13:22] <Darkside> fire
[13:23] <Darkside> ooh
[13:24] <Darkside> hah, then you see smoke
[13:24] <Darkside> wow
[13:24] <BrainDamage> I counted 4 shock diamonds
[13:25] <eroomde> well at least combustion looked fairly stable
[13:26] <eroomde> those cf panels were on fire
[13:27] <eroomde> it does not mean they're getting good combustion at all
[13:27] <eroomde> it means nothing of the sort
[13:27] <eroomde> naughty
[13:28] <russss> heh
[13:35] <eroomde> well that worked
[13:35] <eroomde> it seems like
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[13:45] <fsphil> I ended up missing that, all good?
[13:45] <eroomde> seemed to just about work
[13:46] <eroomde> massive dirty fire coming out the nozzle at the end
[13:47] <eroomde> yay he mentioned westcott
[13:47] <eroomde> heard them testing that over the way
[14:00] <eroomde> impressive they got it all together today media-wise
[14:00] <eroomde> trying to do peripheral things like medai streams when you're doing the first ever actual hardware test is not ideal from an engineering pov
[14:01] <eroomde> impressive they coped so well
[14:08] <eroomde> well, balloons then
[14:10] <fsphil> n
[14:10] <fsphil> er
[14:10] <fsphil> ignore me
[14:41] <cuddykid> hmm - calling electronics gurus.. I'm using a GSM module that draws up to 2amps when transmitting - yet the v-reg max output current is 1300mA, so I'm wondering how I'm going to supply the 2A required - is this the job for a cap?
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[14:50] <navrac_work> yes - but how long is the transmission - thats quite a lot of energy to try and store.
[15:01] <cuddykid> navrac_work: about 4.6ms
[15:07] <cuddykid> basically I will have ~4AAs feeding into to the 3V3 reg and just need to make sure it doesn't conk out (or voltage drop to below 3.1V) when 2A is drawn
[15:11] <navrac_work> yeah stuff a cap across its output, should be ok
[15:11] <costyn> navrac_work: how would you calculate how big a cap you need?
[15:12] <navrac_work> I would just experiment. Caps are heavy so try a few
[15:15] <navrac_work> but you know how many joules of energy are required to provide 3.3v at 2A for 4.8ms
[15:16] <navrac_work> =0.3 joules
[15:16] <BrainDamage> 0.03 you mean
[15:17] <navrac_work> capacitor storage is calculated as c=q/v
[15:17] <navrac_work> oh yes sorry
[15:18] <navrac_work> but you dont want it to drop too much to pull the supply down
[15:20] <cuddykid> good stuff - I'll try that :)
[15:20] <cuddykid> thanks
[15:20] <navrac_work> I'd start with 1000uf low voltage
[15:21] <navrac_work> but to be honest I'd just get a better vreg
[15:21] <BrainDamage> btw, that estimate is a bit large, because the regulator will keep supplying 1.3A average
[15:22] <BrainDamage> so it'd be (2-1.3)A effective current the cap has to supply
[15:22] <BrainDamage> then ofc it'll have to "reload"
[15:28] <navrac_work> to be honest I think it will work without the cap at all - the 1.3A rating is its continous rating for heat purposes. Bet it does 2A without breaking into a sweat
[15:29] <cuddykid> navrac_work: yeah, I wondered that
[15:29] <cuddykid> can't find a 3v3 vreg that will do 2A, max I can find on RS is 1.25A
[15:31] <navrac_work> it will be fine
[15:31] <navrac_work> is it a linear reg?
[15:31] <cuddykid> yep
[15:32] <cuddykid> bb in 15
[15:32] <navrac_work> no problem then - with 5v coming in, it will hold 2A for short periods no problem
[15:35] <navrac_work> 6v even
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[15:56] <griffonbot> Received email: Rick Hewett "[UKHAS] Re: Mailing List Plans"
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[16:14] <navrac_work> 23
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[16:44] <eroomde> if anyone felt a bit dissapointed by the slow starting hybrid for bloodhound earlier, bipropellant hypergolics might be more your cup of tea
[16:44] <eroomde> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOv1ew1GPKc
[16:51] <griffonbot> Received email: Jon Sowman "[UKHAS] Fwd: Mailing List Plans"
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[16:54] <DrLuke> eroomde: that is sexy as hell
[16:56] <DrLuke> that high speed footage is amazing
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[17:12] <eroomde> DrLuke: yeah it's not bad is it
[17:12] <eroomde> the proellants are similarly nasty as hell to work with
[17:12] <DrLuke> yeah
[17:12] <DrLuke> I can imagine
[17:13] <DrLuke> that red color just doesn't look healthy
[17:13] <eroomde> yes
[17:13] <eroomde> that's RFNA
[17:13] <eroomde> which is red fuming nitric acid
[17:13] <eroomde> which is a very good oxidant
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[17:15] <eroomde> but very unpleasant to humans
[17:15] <DrLuke> yeah
[17:15] <eroomde> DrLuke: there's a book everyone in rocket propulsion reads
[17:15] <eroomde> it's a very good book, quite short, very well written (infact probably the best written book about something so technical and niche i have ever read)
[17:15] <eroomde> called 'Ignition!' by John D Clarke
[17:15] <eroomde> you might enjoy it
[17:16] <eroomde> there are pdfs of it floating around the net
[17:16] <DrLuke> cool, thanks
[17:16] <eroomde> you will learn all about rfna among plenty of other things
[17:21] <eroomde> this is why we put an arduino mega footprint as the cpu bloc of gyro, our hovering rocket
[17:21] <eroomde> http://hackaday.com/2012/10/03/finally-an-arm-powered-arduino/
[17:21] <eroomde> trivial upgrade path no pcb respin
[17:22] <eroomde> gyroc*
[17:23] <DrLuke> heh
[17:23] <DrLuke> I'm not very fond of arduino
[17:23] <DrLuke> the IDE and API ist horrible
[17:26] <eroomde> irrelevent
[17:27] <eroomde> you can easily program it normally and just use the bootloader to get it in over serial
[17:27] <eroomde> which is what we do
[17:27] <eroomde> sorry, write code for it normally, i.e. with makefiles and gcc and a text editor
[17:30] <DrLuke> yeah
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[17:53] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[17:53] <Lunar_Lander> so the rocket of the Bloodhound seems to work!
[17:54] <navrac> looked like it
[17:54] <eroomde> just about
[17:54] <navrac> flames came out the back
[17:54] <eroomde> have seen prettier things
[17:55] <navrac> they seemed happy with the thrust output
[17:56] <eroomde> still think they should get a biprop and be done with it
[17:56] <eroomde> it could be all purple and pretty too
[17:57] <eroomde> and much easier to refill at the other end
[17:57] <Lunar_Lander> did one of their earlier rockets explode?
[17:57] <Lunar_Lander> it looked like that during Mr Noble's talk
[17:58] <eroomde> i think one has
[18:00] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[18:00] <eroomde> it happens
[18:00] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[18:00] <Lunar_Lander> and it was cool to see Thrust 2 while driving
[18:00] <Lunar_Lander> I only read about it so far
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[18:01] <Lunar_Lander> I only wonder why Noble stopped driving after Thrust 2
[18:01] <eroomde> probably very scary
[18:02] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[18:02] <Lunar_Lander> but the same guy who drove the third Thrust will drive this one too
[18:02] <eroomde> he was a fighter pilot
[18:02] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[18:05] <Lunar_Lander> do you all have your names on the fin for 10 pounds?
[18:05] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[18:09] <eroomde> no
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[18:17] <jcoxon> evening all
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[18:18] <Lunar_Lander> hello jcoxon
[18:18] <jcoxon> hey Lunar_Lander
[18:18] <Lunar_Lander> how are you?
[18:20] <jcoxon> not bad thanks
[18:21] <jcoxon> just changed a flat tyre on my car
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[18:24] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[18:24] <Lunar_Lander> I wondered if you plan to do a Eurus 3?
[18:24] <jcoxon> well
[18:24] <jcoxon> i'm working on something to launch in the next month
[18:25] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[18:25] <jcoxon> will need your help
[18:25] <jcoxon> as it'll be coming towards you
[18:25] <Lunar_Lander> oh ok
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[18:32] <Lunar_Lander> geography in da house! http://s.gullipics.com/image/4/f/i/5yvr7w-jescgn-zxu/IMG2241.jpeg
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[18:35] Nick change: [1]G8KNN_LT -> G8KNN_LT
[18:37] <fsphil> um?
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[18:51] <Laurenceb_> sup
[18:51] Action: Laurenceb_ just went on a tour round a large CEM plant
[18:52] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[18:52] <Laurenceb_> fun fact: lots of ink cartridges use attiny10
[18:52] <Lunar_Lander> cool!
[18:52] <Laurenceb_> bare die wire bonded
[18:54] <eroomde> for what app?
[18:56] <Laurenceb_> i dont know
[18:56] <Laurenceb_> presumably for killing it
[18:56] <Laurenceb_> and forcing you to BUY MOAR
[18:57] <Laurenceb_> lots of interesting stuff
[18:57] <Laurenceb_> they were working 24/7 to move all M&S stores over to LED lighting by next month
[18:59] <Laurenceb_> also some insane TV studio kit
[19:00] <Laurenceb_> £4M a shot HDTV switching units
[19:01] <Laurenceb_> why you cant use a high end pc is a question i didnt get answered
[19:02] <Laurenceb_> crazy to see the amount of cash floating around
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[19:06] <eroomde> Darkside: you know that chat this morning about how kalman filters are easier explained with diagrams than the maths
[19:07] Nick change: daveake_ -> daveake
[19:07] <eroomde> well, for some notes on the gps i was writing up, i jsut wrote down a kalman filter step in a generalised way (so a general bayesian filter step)
[19:07] <eroomde> this is exactly what i explained this morning
[19:07] <eroomde> http://i.imgur.com/SoMvn.png
[19:07] <eroomde> now to me that makes perfect sense. but it made no sense at all until i spent ages trying to intuitively figure out how it worked
[19:08] <eroomde> so please please encourage the lecturer to teach the intuition first
[19:08] <eroomde> save the symbolic encoding for later
[19:09] <Laurenceb_> hehe
[19:12] <fsphil> I'm glad it makes sense to someone :)
[19:13] <eroomde> it absolutely makes sense, i could teach it to anyone with gcse maths
[19:13] <eroomde> BUT
[19:13] <eroomde> having first gone through it with nothing by drawings
[19:13] <eroomde> it's just 2 or 3 really simple things put down together
[19:13] <eroomde> but unless you know what you're looking at, it might aswell be white noise
[19:13] <fsphil> I suspect I'd need the drawings
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[19:14] <eroomde> and i was taught it, being cambridge, the white noise way
[19:14] <eroomde> and that caused me all sorts of pain
[19:14] <eroomde> but when i finally grokked it, it was both gloriously enlightening and madly frustrating that something so very simple and beautiful was so hidden by silly maths notation
[19:16] <eroomde> i basicallt consider maths like compression
[19:16] <eroomde> you need to decompress it to get sense out of it
[19:16] <eroomde> in and of itself it's just an efficient lossless transmission format
[19:16] <eroomde> but doesn't make much sense to look at
[19:17] <eroomde> right gtg
[19:17] <fsphil> that's an interesting idea
[19:17] <fsphil> to me it's more like assembly -- needs a higher level language to make sense :)
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[20:18] <Randomskk> eroomde: your sort of thing http://www.brownebagracing.com/pictures/hf_tool_sale.pdf
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[20:32] <Laurenceb_> they sound like a bunch of tools to me
[20:32] <Randomskk> well done
[20:33] Action: Laurenceb_ actually opens link
[20:33] <Laurenceb_> lol
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[20:51] Action: Laurenceb_ is getting email bombardment
[20:51] <Laurenceb_> i sent off a load of usb dataloggers
[20:51] <Laurenceb_> no-one knows how to plug in usb cables correctly O_o
[20:53] <Randomskk> lol
[20:54] <BrainDamage> Laurenceb_: http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2388#comic
[20:55] <Laurenceb_> one return so far with a usb mini B adaptor cable jammed into the socket upside down at 45degrees
[20:58] <Lunar_Lander> ROFL
[20:58] <DrLuke> it's true
[20:59] <DrLuke> also, usb plugs easily fit into ethernet jacks
[21:00] <Laurenceb_> im sure ill discover that tomorrow
[21:01] <Laurenceb_> and i thought id made it idiot proof...
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[21:02] <DrLuke> wait
[21:02] <DrLuke> upside down at 45° angle?
[21:02] <DrLuke> got any pics?
[21:03] <Laurenceb_> nope havent got it here - its at work
[21:03] <griffonbot> Received email: Anthony Stirk "[UKHAS] Very Low Power 70cms 1.8V Tracker 27 hours+ run time from a
[21:04] <Upu> single AA...
[21:05] <craag> That is impressive!
[21:05] <navrac> show off :-)
[21:05] <Upu> proud of that :)
[21:05] <DrLuke> haha
[21:05] <stilldavid> Upu: pretty fantastic! just read the email
[21:06] <DrLuke> now implement a loading circuit that can load an AA from a solar cell
[21:06] <Upu> well lots of ideas now
[21:06] <Upu> just wanted to prove you could do it with 1.8V
[21:06] <Lunar_Lander> hi Upu
[21:06] <Upu> evening Lunar
[21:07] <Lunar_Lander> how are you today?
[21:07] <Upu> very well thanks Lunar hows the payload coming along ?
[21:09] <navrac> 14dbm... upu? thats a lot,
[21:10] <Upu> yeah should have been lower, code was left on that when we had a faulty module that wasn't transmitting with enough power
[21:10] <navrac> you could have made 30 hours!
[21:10] <Upu> I'm pretty dubious how accurate the power from the RFM22Bs actually is
[21:11] <Upu> I know 8db :)
[21:11] <craag> Upu: Do you have a supply of those 1.8V MAX-6G's? I'd be interested in building a 1.8v board.
[21:11] <Upu> well I have them on the shop
[21:11] <Upu> but I'm out at the moment
[21:11] <navrac> join the queue craag!
[21:11] <craag> Ah ok, I didn't see them last time I looked.
[21:11] <navrac> i looked this afternoon - out of stock
[21:11] <Upu> http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_64&product_id=71
[21:11] <craag> I'll keep an eye out then, thanks.
[21:12] <Upu> well if people are interested I'll get some in
[21:12] <Upu> I'm probably going to get them in anyway now
[21:12] <navrac> im interested
[21:13] <Upu> I'll let you know when I get some in
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[21:13] <Upu> ok I'm off to walk the dog bbs
[21:14] <navrac> mine are asleep in front of the fire
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[21:19] <Lunar_Lander> I learned one lesson now
[21:20] <Lunar_Lander> I am really bad in timesharing
[21:20] <Lunar_Lander> thus I missed Upu's question
[21:23] <Laurenceb_> Upu: aiui at 1.8v power will be reduced a lot
[21:24] <Laurenceb_> from the rfm22b
[21:24] <navrac> and the gps - the current draw is the same at 1.8 as 3.3
[21:24] <navrac> plus the better efficiency on the boost reg
[21:25] <Adam012> msg Hi Upu, I performed all of the FTDI tests at: http://www.ladyada.net/wiki/ftditest
[21:26] <Adam012> I'm using the https://www.sparkfun.com/products/8772
[21:26] <Laurenceb_> i dont know if rfm22b scales for voltage
[21:27] <Adam012> After a second look over everything I tweaked a few drivers and got complete sentences from the GPS through the FTDI breakout and cable.
[21:27] <Upu> so its working ?
[21:27] <Laurenceb_> aiui it doesnt know the supply voltage
[21:27] <Upu> No idea Laurenceb only one way to test it
[21:27] <Adam012> It looks like it (fingers crossed).
[21:27] <Laurenceb_> so id imagine its "calibrated" for 3.3v
[21:27] <Upu> excellent Adam012
[21:27] <Laurenceb_> the power register just scales the pulse width
[21:28] <Upu> I think using calibration in speech marks is correct
[21:28] <Adam012> Unfortunately it won't work with the Arduino (the code doesn't sync if the GPS is connected) :(
[21:28] <Laurenceb_> hehe
[21:28] <Upu> put that blank sketch on first Adam012 then plug the GPS in
[21:28] <Laurenceb_> si4432/rf22b using basically a pwm output
[21:28] <Adam012> I've ordered another Arduino to see if it's just a part fault (simple programs work just fine with the Arduino).
[21:28] <Laurenceb_> with lots of filtering and impedance match
[21:29] <Laurenceb_> *uses
[21:29] <navrac> well if it was set at 14dbm he's still probably getting 10dbm at 1.8v
[21:30] <Adam012> I'm going to give it another shot over the weekend. Parents' evening on Thursday and Football on Friday night spell a short wait.
[21:30] <Upu> Well I'm on holiday after Friday evening Adam012
[21:30] <Upu> but if you still think the module is at fault post it back to me and I'll check it
[21:31] <Adam012> I don't have any reason to suspect the module at the moment. I'm going to keep tinkering and see how things go. I'll get there!
[21:31] <cuddykid> great work on the 1.8V stuff Upu
[21:31] <Upu> cheers Adam
[21:31] <Upu> hows your new board coming along ?
[21:32] <cuddykid> I guess that + solar is the way forward
[21:32] <Upu> possibly
[21:33] <cuddykid> Upu: not too bad, still a bit of a long process as I'm having to research everything (forgotten most of my limited elec knowledge) - this board isn't actually for a HAB flight, but I may stick it on one
[21:33] <Upu> oh ok
[21:33] <cuddykid> http://i.imgur.com/Bxhv8.png atm
[21:34] <Lunar_Lander> Upu, well I didn't work on my payload because of the exam period
[21:34] <Upu> whats that radio cuddykid ?
[21:34] <Upu> ok Lunar_Lander
[21:34] <Upu> keep at it :)
[21:34] <Upu> oh its GSM
[21:34] <cuddykid> I would have opted for uBlox's GSM module but cost is a big issue with this board
[21:34] <cuddykid> Upu: yeah, GSM + GPS - it's SIM908
[21:35] <cuddykid> a chinese creation
[21:35] <Upu> ok I get it
[21:35] <cuddykid> which I'm a little concerned about
[21:35] <Upu> thats alot of pins on it
[21:35] <Lunar_Lander> Upu, will do, only have to program in cutdown and that GPS formatting, but there are ideas already :)
[21:35] <cuddykid> yep!
[21:35] <Upu> oo that looks fun to solder
[21:35] <Upu> coming my way ? :)
[21:36] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[21:36] <cuddykid> Upu: possibly! - If you don't mind taking up the job of chief solderer :P I'll send you some cash :)
[21:36] <Upu> you know we are having a small party when you launch Lunar :)
[21:37] <Upu> will sort something out Adam :)
[21:37] <cuddykid> I might get one of these hot air gun thingys - but I'm not sure whether that will cure my complete lack of solder skills
[21:37] <cuddykid> been speaking to some people about getting this glider moving too
[21:38] <Upu> I wouldn't use the hot air to solder even with paste
[21:38] <cuddykid> approach at the moment seems to be - Going to get the airframe complete then do some lower alt tests in this country - then possibly higher altitude tests in Spain, if it all works etc
[21:38] <cuddykid> Upu: ah ok - what about one of those ovens?
[21:38] <Lunar_Lander> Upu, XD
[21:38] <Upu> yes an oven would work but you still need to put the paste on
[21:39] <Lunar_Lander> btw Upu I was excited to learn about the Bloodhound SSC car today
[21:39] <Upu> oh yeah saw that
[21:39] <cuddykid> ah, probably best just to hand it over to you Upu :D
[21:39] <Upu> I'm very meh about that
[21:39] <cuddykid> less than a week until the red bull jump
[21:39] <Upu> yeah looking forward to that
[21:39] <cuddykid> yep
[21:40] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
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[21:49] <Laurenceb_> http://www.agrilamp.com/products/
[21:49] <Laurenceb_> ^quite high power stuff
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[21:51] <moumou> evening all
[21:54] <Upu> evening
[21:54] <griffonbot> Received email: Adam Cudworth "[UKHAS] Launch Announcement: 13/10 or 14/10, Worcester, 434.650"
[21:55] <moumou> cool
[21:55] <moumou> is this an invite? :)
[21:56] <cuddykid> it's a link to https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/ukhas/QJMUDvl9NHw moumou :)
[21:56] <cuddykid> on the UKHAS mailing list
[21:56] <cuddykid> the griffonbot post was just a notification for the IRC
[21:56] <moumou> oh ok thanks.
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[21:58] <moumou> everyone I need some help: I got this list of gear I want to buy for a baloon launch. essentially the electronic side.
[21:58] <moumou> I am thinking: Arduino Uno board
[21:58] <cuddykid> trying to make this PCB as 'debuggable' as possible - add lots of pinouts in places, as I know it doesn't stand much of a chance of working :P
[21:58] <Upu> that will work
[21:58] <cuddykid> moumou: good place to start
[21:59] <Upu> where are you location/launching from ?
[21:59] <moumou> No idea about launch yet. Have not selected a launch site but I am in Southampton will have to go somewhere else, away from the big blue sea
[22:00] <Upu> oh ok UK then
[22:00] <Upu> use an NTX2 there is a guide on the wiki
[22:00] <Upu> then a GPS and you're good to go
[22:01] <Upu> with a bit of coding
[22:01] <moumou> NX2 and a Ezcap EZTV645 DVB-T Digital for a cheap receiver
[22:01] <Upu> aye that will work
[22:01] <Upu> for testing anyway
[22:01] <chris_99> anyone seen this http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2212278/Rocket-propel-British-Bloodhound-car-1-000mph-fired-time.html
[22:01] <chris_99> i'm confused why you need an engine
[22:02] <Upu> something to do with fuel
[22:02] <chris_99> why not just use a rocket though, why a V8
[22:03] <moumou> because it's not really a rocket
[22:03] <moumou> more like a wingless plane ie fuselage and jet engien
[22:04] <moumou> also how about a GSM unit to send sms as well?
[22:04] <chris_99> the diagram is a bit weird, it mentions about a solid fuel rocket
[22:04] <Upu> can if you want I wouldn't bother
[22:05] <BrainDamage> they used the engine to pump the oxydizer into the rocket body
[22:05] <moumou> I saw some people used Radiometrix NTX2 and some RFM22b
[22:05] <chris_99> oh that would make more sense BrainDamage, so the engine isn't actually to directly power the wheels
[22:06] <chris_99> could they not have just used a straight rocket though, without the jet engine or V8
[22:06] <Upu> moumou NTX2 is easier to start with
[22:07] <moumou> GT-320FW High-Altitude GPS Receiver ?
[22:07] <moumou> link: https://www.argentdata.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=144
[22:07] <BrainDamage> it is a straight rocket
[22:07] <navrac> upu - lookingat the specs - the ncp1402 is a lot more efficient for 1.8v operation compared to the tps
[22:08] <chris_99> well it's initially powered by a jet engine
[22:08] <navrac> 80% as opposed to 80%
[22:08] <Upu> interesting natrium42
[22:08] <Upu> doh
[22:08] <navrac> 80% as opposed to 60%
[22:08] <Lunar_Lander> chris_99, yeah and then the rocket fires and then also the jet increases perfomance due to more air getting in
[22:08] <Upu> well I could never get the NCP1402 working from a single cell
[22:08] <chris_99> yeah i guess i'm wondering why they couldn't just use something like a hybrid rocket without the jet engine
[22:09] <BrainDamage> a rocket btw is a jet engine ...
[22:09] <BrainDamage> I think you mean the air intake?
[22:10] <chris_99> yeah
[22:10] <navrac> oh fair enough!
[22:10] <BrainDamage> well, it's extra mass to throw behind, plus some oxydizer in air
[22:10] <Upu> also NCP1402 definitely doesn't work at 3.3V
[22:10] <Upu> and this board can do 1.8 or 3.3 so I needed a part that could do both
[22:11] <moumou> any favourite recommended supplier for electronic parts?
[22:11] <chris_99> but with a hybrid you would be pumping straight oxygen into it
[22:11] <BrainDamage> they were pumping H2O2
[22:11] <BrainDamage> and again: extra mass to throw behind
[22:12] <navrac> odd, ive used the 1402 at 3v3 and 5v with no problm - although it did struggle to do full tx and gps load off a single cell#
[22:12] <Upu> could power up the GPS
[22:12] <Upu> couldn't
[22:12] <Upu> anyway I'm calling it a night back tomorrow
[22:13] <moumou> good n8 thanks for your advise
[22:13] <navrac> fair enough - well done on the board = great stuff
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[22:14] <navrac> hiya james
[22:16] <chris_99> yeah that's true, is it just burning the hydrogen peroxide by itself or is that an oxidiser for something else
[22:16] <BrainDamage> ... it's an hybrid rocket
[22:16] <BrainDamage> it has a liquid oxydizer and a solid fuel
[22:17] <BrainDamage> you adjust the burn rate and the trust by the oxydizer flow
[22:17] Action: jcoxon is still compiling his gumstix build environment
[22:17] <jcoxon> two days later
[22:17] <Laurenceb_> lol
[22:17] <BrainDamage> it's the great selling point vs a complete solid rocket, where they are premixed and set
[22:17] <BrainDamage> with little control once you ignited it
[22:17] <chris_99> oh i misread it then, i thought the solid rocket was seperate?
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[22:18] <BrainDamage> what?
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[22:19] <BrainDamage> the rocket is made by a solid fuel and a liquid oxydizer
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[22:19] <russss> yeah it's not a solid rocket, it's a hybrid
[22:19] <chris_99> ok i was looking @ http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/10/03/article-2212278-15557819000005DC-356_634x395.jpg and it says solid fuel rocket
[22:20] <russss> well, there's nothing technically wrong with those words
[22:20] <moumou> arduino uno or mega? what's more popular? The mega seems to have more memory
[22:20] <russss> the fuel is solid
[22:20] <russss> but the oxidiser is liquid
[22:20] <chris_99> yeah but it makes it look like theres two sepearate rocket tails if you see what i mean
[22:21] <BrainDamage> because there are 2 separate jet engines
[22:21] <BrainDamage> it's even said in the pic
[22:21] <BrainDamage> "hybrid solid fuel rocket kicks in at 350mph"
[22:22] <chris_99> my bad
[22:23] <jcoxon> moumou, ummm probably uno
[22:23] <jcoxon> cheaper
[22:24] <moumou> thanks jcoxon ... there seems to be more shields with the uno. I am getting it from dealextreme.com. good? or better supplier out there?
[22:24] <jcoxon> moumou, whats it for?
[22:24] <chris_99> ah this page is cool http://www.bloodhoundssc.com/project/facts-and-figures/vehicle-technical-specification/propulsion-rocket
[22:25] <moumou> baloon launch. control radio transmitter NTX2 + storage and GPS receiver
[22:25] <jcoxon> so do you really want an uno
[22:26] <jcoxon> or would an arduino pro be better
[22:26] <jcoxon> my thinking is about voltage levels
[22:26] <jcoxon> 3.3v is probably more useful then 5v (which is hte uno)
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[22:27] <moumou> haven't see the pro. checking!
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[22:28] <moumou> ah yes! http://www.cmiyc.com/projects/arduino-comparison-chart/
[22:30] <moumou> what do you mean by 3.3v is more useful?
[22:30] <chris_99> theres lots of 3.3V components these days such as GPS, USB, ..
[22:31] <jcoxon> moumou, https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10914
[22:31] <jcoxon> moumou, well most GPS modules run at 3.3v
[22:31] <jcoxon> and an ntx2 will also work well at 3.3v
[22:31] <jcoxon> so you can run it all from teh same power supply
[22:32] <jcoxon> right - need slepp
[22:32] <jcoxon> sleep
[22:32] <jcoxon> night all
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[22:32] <moumou> you can still convert a 5v down to 3.3v but I get you drawing less power in general with 3.3v which is good
[22:32] <moumou> night thanks
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[23:21] <moumou> anyone used the "Cash on Delivery" in the HAB store? never heard of it?
[23:22] <SpeedEvil> the guy comes to the door, and wants cash
[23:22] <SpeedEvil> pretty self explanatory
[23:22] <SpeedEvil> provide it, he hands over parcel
[23:23] <moumou> yusing Royal mail. never heard of it! but if it works, it works
[23:23] <moumou> thanks
[23:24] <SpeedEvil> used to be more popular
[23:24] <SpeedEvil> from a time when PayPal and the internet did not exist
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[00:00] --- Thu Oct 4 2012