highaltitude.log.20121002

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[00:34] <natrium42> SpeedEvil: we can just modify the atmosphere to be heavier
[00:35] <natrium42> then we can use other lift gases :D
[00:35] <natrium42> profit
[00:48] <SpeedEvil> Venus
[00:48] <SpeedEvil> you can safely skydive to the surface of Venus, it's so dense
[00:49] <SpeedEvil> well, barring the meltyness, and the chokeing.
[00:50] <natrium42> SpeedEvil: that's how the russian probes landed
[00:50] <natrium42> no chutes
[00:50] <natrium42> :D
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[08:53] <costyn> quiet here today
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[09:12] <eroomde> yes
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[09:18] <eroomde> this is why knots matter
[09:18] <eroomde> http://youtu.be/hS0F3ZJr018?t=1m1s
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[09:21] <costyn> haha
[09:21] <costyn> and a well established launch procedure
[09:22] <daveake> whoops
[09:23] <daveake> They need an Ed
[09:23] <daveake> Or a scout
[09:23] <Upu-> lol
[09:23] <eroomde> or a scud
[09:23] <Upu-> what a fail
[09:23] Nick change: Upu- -> UpuWork
[09:24] <UpuWork> what a shame
[09:24] <costyn> perhaps less people standing aroudn and holding on to things
[09:24] <costyn> and less screaming
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[09:24] <daveake> my ears
[09:24] <eroomde> yes, there was a lot of screaming
[09:24] <SP9UOB> hi all:
[09:24] <eroomde> helo SP9UOB
[09:24] <UpuWork> morning SP9UOB
[09:24] <SP9UOB> Upu: Those sarrantel antennas should by DC shorted or not ?
[09:25] <UpuWork> sec I'll check
[09:25] <eroomde> yes
[09:25] <SP9UOB> Upu: I hawe two of them
[09:25] <eroomde> qfh is dc-shorted
[09:25] <SP9UOB> one shorted one open
[09:25] <SP9UOB> have
[09:26] <UpuWork> yep DC short
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[09:26] <SP9UOB> anyway: 1/4 lambda GP of CuAg works better ;-)
[09:27] <eroomde> until you turn it upside down
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[09:28] <costyn> eroomde: was it really a knot that failed or was the line too weak?
[09:28] <eroomde> don't know, i must confess
[09:28] <SP9UOB> ok, so one of them is broken. I going to change with the shorted one.
[09:28] <fsphil> he knows knot
[09:29] <eroomde> but a line almost always fails at the knot unless there is a defect in the line
[09:29] <eroomde> SP9UOB: have you subjected them to a reflow oven or anything like that?
[09:29] <costyn> eroomde: true
[09:30] <eroomde> the best conventional knots are only about 80% the strength of the line they're made of
[09:30] <SP9UOB> eroomde: nope, just soldering iron
[09:30] <eroomde> which is why we use tubular line and chinese finger joins for anything that counts
[09:30] <eroomde> SP9UOB: i've found them to be a bit delicate to over-heating in general. the coefficient of expansion of the copper vs the ceramic is such that it can easily delaminate
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[09:32] <UpuWork> I've had a few back where people have tried to solder them and they do come away if you're not careful
[09:33] <UpuWork> https://www.dropbox.com/s/41798x4gtxtctpj/2012-07-16%2014.27.36.jpg
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[09:34] <SP9UOB> UpuWork: i will try to do an autopsy :-)
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[09:35] <SP9UOB> ok, new one is lying on the balcony and trying to get fix :-)
[09:36] <SP9UOB> ...and is working
[09:36] <costyn> eroomde: are those stronger than any other knot?
[09:37] <eroomde> costyn: yes
[09:38] <SP9UOB> UpuWork: looks like the internal (hot) conductor is somewhat broken
[09:38] <eroomde> they're very mch stronger than anything else
[09:39] <eroomde> and the reason in and of itself to use tubular braids as opposed to anything else
[09:39] <eroomde> all our stuff on theparachute test vehicle was tubular kevlar with chinese finger terminations
[09:41] <UpuWork> did you get them from me SP9UOB ?
[09:42] <SP9UOB> UpuWork: yes, but i dont want to return
[09:42] <SP9UOB> it
[09:42] <UpuWork> Well I can post you another one if you want
[09:42] <SP9UOB> them (sorry for my poor english)
[09:42] <UpuWork> if you think it was faulty as shipped
[09:42] <UpuWork> your english is fine
[09:44] <UpuWork> Let me know
[09:44] <SP9UOB> UpuWork: antenna was working fine, i must somewhat broke internal conductor
[09:44] <UpuWork> ok
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[09:46] <SP9UOB> maybe when i glued the cap
[09:46] <SP9UOB> i dont know
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[09:50] <SP9UOB> UPUwork: ok, the new one is working fine
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[11:01] <simpleirc> hi
[11:02] <eroomde> hello simpleirc
[11:03] <eroomde> welcome
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[11:10] <fsphil> well that was simple enough
[11:10] <eroomde> just got a new lab power supply delivered
[11:10] <eroomde> 0-30V
[11:10] <eroomde> 0-100A
[11:11] <eroomde> it's a 3 phase rackmount beastie
[11:11] Action: MrScienceMan madjelly
[11:12] <eroomde> we're looking at playing with some fairly power-dense brushless motors for things like small powerful linear actuators
[11:13] <eroomde> and possibly electric versions of turbopumps, electric being a bit more competitive at the small scale
[11:20] <gonzo_> the lads at the radio club are building something similar, a 110V 3ph converter
[11:20] <oh7lzb> eroomde: Doubles as arc welding machine?
[11:21] <eroomde> oh7lzb: take that back sir!
[11:21] <gonzo_> hehe, thi one would. They were demonstrating the initial step up to 400VDC at abiout 5kW
[11:21] <eroomde> we do TIG and MIG only here
[11:21] <eroomde> MIG for big ugly heavy metal
[11:21] <eroomde> tig for everything else, mostly rocket engine plumbing
[11:21] <gonzo_> they are still arc, just mnore controled
[11:22] <eroomde> yes
[11:22] <eroomde> but arc to most people means spluttery sticks
[11:23] <gonzo_> you have seem my mig work then!
[11:23] <eroomde> :)
[11:23] <oh7lzb> 8)
[11:23] <gonzo_> would like a TIG set, just can't justiofy the cost for the little work it would get
[11:23] <eroomde> we took a punt on one of the dodgy chinese ones
[11:23] <gonzo_> then again, I could not justify the oxy-propane rig, but that was just FUN!
[11:24] <eroomde> but actually it was a very good dodgy chinese one
[11:24] <eroomde> and it's great
[11:26] <eroomde> but as most of what we do is either structural aluminium or stainless steel plumbing, it gets a lot of use so we had no choice but to buy one really
[11:26] <eroomde> am bodging up one of those rotating tables too for plumpbing work
[11:26] <eroomde> such that you can move the piece around to do a seam seam weld, rather than you moving around the peice
[11:26] <eroomde> which is bothersome
[11:28] <gonzo_> I had to do that for the main shaft of my dish. Just rigged it all in place and slowly rotated the mou8nt in it's bearings. Great finish and ran true
[11:28] <eroomde> jonsowman: GBBO this eve
[11:28] <eroomde> yeah the quality with a turntable is better too certainly
[11:28] <gonzo_> have seen car prop shafts welded up in the lathe. Works, but you have to protect all the lathe bed from spatte
[11:28] <gonzo_> r
[11:29] <eroomde> you can rig the pen up statically too
[11:29] <eroomde> and have the whole thing be automatic
[11:29] <eroomde> if you can feed the rod in constantly
[11:29] <eroomde> including the pulsing function which gives you a nice stack of coins look despite it being continuous
[11:33] <gonzo_> prefer to hand weld, with mig anyway. But a mounted and moving work holder can help
[11:33] <gonzo_> only prob with continuous bead of weld is the expansion
[11:34] <gonzo_> usually have to do a pipe in 1/4 sections and give iot some time to cool
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[11:34] <eroomde> i think that's some of the reasoning behind the pulsing
[11:35] <gonzo_> I'm talking big ugly metal with lots of heat
[11:38] <MrScienceMan> has anyone made cables to connect audio out of a radio to mic-in ?
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[11:41] <gonzo_> most of us I expect
[11:41] <gonzo_> talking about PC mic-in, not radio mic in? (not making repeaters are we?)
[11:42] <MrScienceMan> both actually
[11:42] <MrScienceMan> im going to attempt to make a cable where the audio out from my radio goes into my mic-in and line-out goes to the radio mic-in
[11:43] <gonzo_> rr, assumed that, just being silly
[11:43] <gonzo_> what radio?
[11:43] <MrScienceMan> uv-5r
[11:43] <gonzo_> is that a hheld?
[11:43] <MrScienceMan> yes
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[11:44] <gonzo_> the spkr out to pc is easy enough. Just a simple lead. Though if you want to be clever, you can put an isolating transformer in
[11:45] <gonzo_> I save the trasformers off old dial up modem cards for that
[11:45] <MrScienceMan> dont the speaker/mic levels differ ?
[11:45] <gonzo_> well, most mic inputs can also be used for line in, which is higher level
[11:46] <gonzo_> try it direct to start with and see what the levels are like
[11:46] <gonzo_> you could put a potential divider (pot) in the lead if you have problems with overload.
[11:47] <MrScienceMan> easy enough, how about from pc to radio ?
[11:48] <gonzo_> same again, but you almost certainly will need the divider
[11:49] <gonzo_> I'd siggest also putting something like 1uf cap in series with the radio mic in. As often these radios use the mic line to control the ptt
[11:51] <MrScienceMan> i have a handfree here, when you press the PTT the curcuit closes between the sleeve and ring, with resitance
[11:53] <gonzo_> yep, some of those chineese rigs use stereo jacks for both mic and spkr. So ptt may be separate. See if you can fins a wiring diagram or schematic for the set to be sure
[11:55] <MrScienceMan> tried
[11:56] <MrScienceMan> the connector is on of those double type
[11:56] <MrScienceMan> 1 3.5mm and 1 2.5mm
[11:56] <MrScienceMan> in one
[11:56] <MrScienceMan> 2.5mm is for the speaker and 3.5mm for mic
[11:56] <MrScienceMan> usually the mic is connected to ring and tip
[11:56] <MrScienceMan> where ring supplies 5 volts
[11:59] <gonzo_> you can use separate connectors. Sometimes the ground is only avail on one of the connectors, so you have to have both plugged in for anythung to work
[11:59] <MrScienceMan> both grounds are shared
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[11:59] <gonzo_> simplifies things
[12:00] <MrScienceMan> ill have to play around, thought somebody might give me a some hints
[12:00] <MrScienceMan> to what resistors to use
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[12:02] <MrScienceMan> looked around and people suggest -50db to level it
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[12:21] <Laurenceb> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ba84EL6wO10
[12:42] <MrScienceMan> gonzo_: found this
[12:42] <MrScienceMan> http://www.epanorama.net/circuits/line_to_mic.html
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[12:48] <eroomde> so i used to, about 12 years ago, when i was 13, make little robot wars robots called antweights. i randomly thought i'd have a look to see if it's still going
[12:49] <eroomde> it is
[12:49] <eroomde> and they're a lot more advanced now, thanks to LiPo and brushless motors
[12:49] <eroomde> i just saw an amazing full-body spinner which uses a suction pump to stick itself to the floor. but to give you an idea of the power, see how it massively self destructs
[12:49] <eroomde> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pj_NleCYeq8&feature=youtu.be
[12:50] <costyn> eroomde: And... it's gone!
[12:50] <eroomde> there's a lot of KE in that arm
[12:51] <costyn> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrLbY4-Q99A#at=10
[12:58] <eroomde> he figured out it naturally wanted to flip over
[12:58] <eroomde> it's that dynamics phenomena when you try and spin something about it's middle moment of inertia
[12:58] <eroomde> or rather, the axis that belong to the middle moment of inertia
[12:58] <eroomde> it's unstable and tries to flip over
[12:59] <fsphil> that slightly exploded
[12:59] <fsphil> it's an interesting move
[13:01] <eroomde> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2o9eBl_Gzw
[13:01] <eroomde> this effect ^
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[13:08] <Laurenceb> the hell
[13:09] <Laurenceb> that looks impossible
[13:09] <eroomde> u did physics you should understand
[13:09] <eroomde> it is surprisingly simple to show
[13:09] <Laurenceb> really?
[13:09] <eroomde> it only occurs if you rotate about the middle axis of the 3 principle moments of inertia
[13:09] <eroomde> middle in magnitude
[13:10] <eroomde> look, get a hardback book that is somewhere near you
[13:10] <Laurenceb> bizzaRE
[13:10] <eroomde> got one?
[13:10] <Laurenceb> yes
[13:10] <eroomde> ok
[13:10] <eroomde> hold it such that the spin is facing up
[13:10] <eroomde> and aligned front to back relative to you
[13:11] <eroomde> spine*
[13:11] <Laurenceb> k
[13:11] <eroomde> and throw it up with a spin as if the axis were between your right and left hand
[13:11] <eroomde> it should just spin normally
[13:11] <Laurenceb> k
[13:11] <eroomde> because that's spinning it about the largest moment of inertia
[13:11] <Laurenceb> 1 damaged book later...
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[13:11] <eroomde> lol
[13:12] <eroomde> then spin it about the smallest moment of interia
[13:12] <Laurenceb> k
[13:12] <eroomde> which should be the axis that goes from the bottom (as if it were ona shelf) out the top
[13:13] <eroomde> the way it would spin if you were to stand it up on a record player
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[13:13] <eroomde> that should spin fineand stabley too
[13:14] <eroomde> yep?
[13:14] <Laurenceb> yes
[13:14] <eroomde> finally, the middle MoI
[13:14] <eroomde> which is the one that would be the axis made by an arrow, if you were to fire an arrow at the book on a bookshelf, through the spine and out the pages
[13:15] <eroomde> if you see what i mean
[13:15] <Laurenceb> oh yeah
[13:15] <eroomde> if you give that a decent spin/throw up, you should see it tries to spin about one of the other axes too
[13:15] <Laurenceb> yeah i see
[13:15] <Laurenceb> had never come across that effect
[13:16] <eroomde> undergrad synamics course ftw
[13:16] <Laurenceb> very weird
[13:16] <Laurenceb> heh
[13:16] <eroomde> dynamics*
[13:16] <Laurenceb> wonder if itd be useful for rockoon launch...
[13:16] <eroomde> hand wavy proof
[13:16] <eroomde> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennis_racket_theorem
[13:16] <eroomde> rockets should be symetrical in 2 of the axis
[13:16] <eroomde> so no
[13:17] <Laurenceb> i was thinking some sort of cmg like thing
[13:18] <costyn> works with any book shaped object, lego bloccks, mobile phones etc
[13:18] <costyn> some guy at uni said you need some complicated tensor math to calculate this effect
[13:19] <eroomde> well, you can represent it in matrix/tensor form
[13:19] <eroomde> but don't really need to
[13:19] <Laurenceb> its not that complex
[13:19] <costyn> well I never looked it up, but just always rememberd that guy saying it
[13:20] <eroomde> you can just do basic differential equation stuff to show that that spinning around the middle one is an unstable solution
[13:23] <costyn> Laurenceb: but you never threw up anything book shaped before and noticed it flips along an unexpected axis?
[13:23] <Laurenceb> nope
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[13:42] <navrac> hi upuwork - thanks for the board
[13:42] <UpuWork> welcome
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[13:49] <navrac> does the reset password work on your site - or is there just a delay in emailing?
[13:50] <navrac> was just getting soem rfm22b breakouts for testing this oscillator locking
[13:50] <Darkside> ooh
[13:51] <navrac> I've found a chip that will remove the jitter and lock to the gps - sadly 10mA down the drain though
[13:51] <UpuWork> should work navrac
[13:51] <UpuWork> we jsut shut apache down for a bit to patch it
[13:51] <navrac> I'll be patient then
[13:52] <navrac> I wont order anything that needs soldering till after your holiday!
[13:52] <UpuWork> I just did a load
[13:52] <UpuWork> so when I get back I won't have to do it
[13:52] <navrac> lol
[13:53] <Darkside> navrac: oh what chip?
[13:53] <navrac> err -hold on....
[13:53] <Darkside> and is the jitter really that bad?
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[13:55] <navrac> its not unnoticeable, however seems ok - but for safety im going to put it through a clock recovery/multiplier. Ive got the rs confirmation just trying to work out the part number
[13:56] <Darkside> the jitter willr esult in phase noise, right?
[13:56] <navrac> CS2300-CP-CZZ
[13:57] <navrac> it will result in a bit of an fm wobble and bad spectral purity on the output
[13:57] <navrac> but im going to try it with and without the clock cleanup
[13:57] <Darkside> looks like it wants a frequency reference
[13:58] <Darkside> not 1pps
[13:58] <navrac> and also another software and a few passives method
[13:58] <navrac> i clocked my max6pps output to 10mhz yesterday
[13:58] <Darkside> don't do that
[13:58] <Darkside> use 8pps
[13:58] <Darkside> ack
[13:58] <navrac> its rated as 1khz but didnt seem to mind]
[13:58] <Darkside> 8MHz
[13:59] <Darkside> less jutter
[13:59] <Darkside> i think
[13:59] <Darkside> if the internal clock is anything like that on the NEO-6T, it will have less jitter at 8MHZ than at 10MHz
[13:59] <Darkside> i've been using the NEO-6T's for highly accurate PPS stuff recently
[13:59] <Darkside> but we also did tests on the 10MHz output, and there is significant jitter, as it doesn't divide down nicely from the internal clock
[13:59] <navrac> ive got several programmable multipliers so its going to be a suck it and see approach to finding the best values
[14:00] <Darkside> hehe
[14:00] <Darkside> surprised the MAX-6Q can do 10MHZ though!
[14:00] <Darkside> i wonder how much power it draws doing that
[14:01] <navrac> no idea - early days, only just ordered all the bits
[14:01] <Darkside> mm
[14:01] <Darkside> will be useful to do a current measurement on it whtn it's doing 10MHz output
[14:01] <Darkside> i was thinking about that.. if you could lock the downlink frequency to a gps frequency reference you'd be set
[14:02] <Darkside> but i wasn't sure if you could get sugh a reference while keeping low power
[14:02] <navrac> thats the idea
[14:02] <navrac> however i normally use low power mode on the max6 and i suspect that the jitter will be terrible
[14:03] <navrac> the positional and height accuracy tends to nosedive
[14:03] <Darkside> yeah
[14:03] <Darkside> also its a TXCO, not anything better
[14:03] <Darkside> so its possible the output frequency will drift
[14:03] <kokey> I haven't been following, is this about reducing drift on telemetry tx?
[14:03] <navrac> its a combined digital and analogue
[14:03] <Darkside> kokey: yeah
[14:03] <Darkside> by locking it to a gps reference somehow
[14:03] <navrac> so its marginally better than the normal multipliers
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[14:04] <Darkside> i know the holdover on the TXCO based ublox units is shit
[14:04] <kokey> nice, yeah with the GPS you have no excuse really
[14:04] <kokey> well, apart from effort
[14:04] <Darkside> if you lose lock your output frequency will likely drift all over the place
[14:05] <Darkside> whats 1KHz of drift at 434MHz, in ppm?
[14:05] <navrac> well the built in oscillator isnt brilliant but about stable enough compared to the normal rfm drifty drifty]#
[14:05] <navrac> 2 and a bit
[14:05] <Darkside> yeeeeeeah
[14:06] <Darkside> i wonder how bad the 10MHz reference gets when it goes into holdover
[14:06] <Darkside> here's hoping you don't lose lock of course
[14:06] <Darkside> but you never know
[14:06] <kokey> does the rfm drift more than the ntx2?
[14:06] <Darkside> no
[14:06] <navrac> debatable
[14:06] <Darkside> it has more small drifts
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[14:06] <Darkside> but it doesn't drift as far overall as the NTX2
[14:06] <navrac> not when its going up - but when it drops it can go really yukky
[14:07] <Darkside> yeah, its the low thermal mass of the crystal
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[14:07] <Darkside> any idea what the spec of the crystal on them is?
[14:07] <navrac> put it this way - if you put it in the garden without insulation you can easily measure wind speed
[14:07] <Darkside> because replacing it with a HC49 crystal may help, even if just from the increased thermal mass of the thing
[14:07] <Darkside> navrac: haha
[14:08] <Darkside> or if you can find a high spec 30MHz crystal to put on it
[14:08] <navrac> i was thinking of a vctcxo
[14:08] <eroomde> you said this at the conference too, but in my anecdotal experience (i.e. never tested it) the frm22s are less stable than the ntx2s
[14:08] <Darkside> eroomde: not from what i've seen
[14:08] <Darkside> but then again we do insulate our payloads pretty well
[14:09] <navrac> thru a multiplier so i can do other modulation methods
[14:09] <Darkside> in general, we haven't had drift issues with our payloads. NTX2, RFM22B or otherwise
[14:09] <Darkside> but it's not like we have big holes in our payloads either
[14:09] <eroomde> a side-by-side is called for
[14:09] <Darkside> eroomde: done that
[14:09] <Darkside> well.
[14:09] <navrac> ive noticed most rfm22 payloads seem to drift more than the ntx ones - but to be honest thats just anecdotal and I caqnt say with any certainty
[14:09] <Darkside> different payloads on the same balloon train
[14:10] <eroomde> that's not quite the same
[14:10] <Darkside> they were the same box design.. but not hte same box
[14:10] <eroomde> i am thinking both in the desk, then in a freezer, then in an oven set to 60 or whatever
[14:10] <Darkside> ahh !
[14:10] <eroomde> and see which deviates more
[14:10] <Darkside> yep
[14:10] <navrac> the good thing about the rfm is it drifts one way - then back again
[14:10] <navrac> but i have noticed - rapid descent the rfm is untrackable
[14:11] <Darkside> navrac: what?
[14:11] <Darkside> on whose payloads
[14:11] <navrac> there was one 3 weeks ago? where the drift was terrible
[14:11] <Darkside> i've never had that problem on any of my cutdown payloads, or on millinut
[14:11] <Darkside> i could track it fine
[14:12] <eroomde> i have noticed this too, that's why i mention it. but this is just as a listener
[14:12] <navrac> also i hate the rfm drift on starting tx after a gap
[14:12] <eroomde> it might be that they're all pico flights or something
[14:12] <Darkside> yes, that is annoying
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[14:12] <Darkside> eroomde: yes. i think insulation is a big part of this
[14:12] <navrac> which for low power operation is a real pain
[14:12] <Darkside> even a NTX2 is going to go screwey when wind hits the payload
[14:12] <eroomde> but usually when there's be an ntx2 and somethign else on the same train, eg ballasthalo 5, the 2nd tx is crashing in and out of the ntx2's freq
[14:13] <Darkside> heh
[14:13] <Darkside> did you dial one up in frequency with the pot?
[14:13] <navrac> probably is, and since im interested in superpressure , weight is a big issue
[14:13] <Darkside> navrac: you can still unsulate while keeping weight down
[14:13] <Darkside> we use very low density styrofoam
[14:14] <navrac> yes - but there are limits.
[14:14] <Darkside> yeah
[14:14] <Darkside> still, i think replacing the crystal with something 'bigger' might be somethign to test at first
[14:15] <navrac> well since its going to be rainy season soon, this is a good time to try and evaluate all the methods
[14:15] <Darkside> http://au.element14.com/txc/9c-30-000meej-t/quartz-crystal-30-mhz-18-pf-hc/dp/1842325
[14:16] <Darkside> +10ppm 30mhz crystal
[14:16] <navrac> but the longer aim is to get a sub 2m superpressure to a useable height, which means very low weight and power consumption
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[14:16] <navrac> 4khz - over what temp range
[14:16] <kokey> a crystal with thermal underwear
[14:17] <Darkside> mm that one is only rated as -20 to 70 deg c
[14:17] <navrac> best ive got is a 1ppm down to -40 at the moment
[14:17] <Darkside> i'd love to know the model of the crystal on the boards
[14:17] <UpuWork> on the NTX2 ?
[14:18] <Darkside> on the RFM22Bs
[14:18] <UpuWork> ok
[14:18] <Darkside> havent been able to find much from the codes on it
[14:18] <navrac> but a 2m superpressure is going to be floating at the coldest bit
[14:18] <Darkside> navrac: in which case it'll drift to a certain point, and probablt stay there
[14:18] <navrac> true
[14:19] <UpuWork> I ran an NTX with insulation https://www.dropbox.com/home/Public/Images/HAB/NTX2%20Insulation
[14:19] <Darkside> tbh slow drift isn'y something you should bother trying to correct for on the payload
[14:19] <UpuWork> didn't drift much at all
[14:19] <Darkside> unless you want to have multiple payloads close together inf requency
[14:19] <Laurenceb> candle wax works very well
[14:19] <Laurenceb> for thermal isolation
[14:19] <Darkside> you can correct for slow drift on the ground easily
[14:19] <navrac> ive got two other boards coming from china - an rfm22b clone and a not clone one - going to see what they are like, other than cheap
[14:19] <Darkside> fast drift (faster than the AFC on fldigi can keep up), is the big problem
[14:19] <navrac> hello laurenceb
[14:19] <Laurenceb> hi
[14:20] <UpuWork> fast drift usually indicates a fault though
[14:20] <Darkside> UpuWork: or poor insulation
[14:20] <Darkside> though that is covered under fault i guess :P
[14:20] <Darkside> high speed wind entering the payload
[14:20] <UpuWork> or Doppler shift from falling without a parachute
[14:20] <Darkside> hmm
[14:20] <UpuWork> that was ajoke
[14:20] <navrac> i found this CS2300-CP-CZZ which claims to clear up jitter as well as multiply - a bit current heavy though
[14:20] <Laurenceb> interesting
[14:21] <Laurenceb> yeah im reading datasheet
[14:21] <Laurenceb> narrow bandwidth pll
[14:21] <Laurenceb> nice
[14:21] <Laurenceb> tbh id try varicaps
[14:21] <Darkside> hmm
[14:21] <navrac> RS 716-5804
[14:21] <Laurenceb> as low current and gives flexibility if the ublox is drifting
[14:22] <navrac> ive ordered the stuff for that too - going to tap off and /4 for the processor so independent of the rfm gpio
[14:22] <Darkside> hmm
[14:22] <Darkside> how bad is doppler going to be?
[14:22] <Darkside> directly below it it will be noticable i think
[14:22] <Darkside> we've seen payloads fall at 200m/s before, right?
[14:23] <Laurenceb> 300hz or so
[14:23] <Laurenceb> probably less due to geometry
[14:23] <Darkside> yeah thats what i've come up with too Laurenceb
[14:23] <Darkside> i mean, i've heard payloads bursting before
[14:24] <Darkside> if you're below it, you can hear it
[14:27] <Laurenceb> when i said about using varicaps before, i was thinking of dc blocking caps and resistors to gnd
[14:28] <Laurenceb> im not sure thats needed
[14:28] <Laurenceb> maybe just varicap diode to each side then two stage RC filter off the pwm
[14:28] <gonzo_> you can get gravity/acceleration effects on crystals too
[14:28] <Laurenceb> as the si4432 xtal runs on low voltage
[14:28] <gonzo_> so it may not be all doppler
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[14:54] <eroomde> ublox 7 chips promising 10Hz updates
[14:54] <eroomde> which is nice
[14:55] <Laurenceb> drool
[14:55] <jonsowman> eroomde: i'll be watching
[14:56] <eroomde> and lower power
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[14:57] <Laurenceb> looks like 10ma
[15:02] <UpuWork> October next year I think
[15:02] <UpuWork> I asked Alphamicro about them
[15:02] <eroomde> for the modules presumably?
[15:02] <eroomde> the chips themselves seem to exist
[15:03] <UpuWork> yes the modules
[15:04] <eroomde> that will be fun
[15:04] <eroomde> if one can get the pseudoranges out at 10Hz, that is also very interesting
[15:05] <eroomde> gps/ins for all with very low hardware barrier to entry
[15:05] <UpuWork> With regards to the MAX-7s we are not expecting to see engineering samples for another 6-8 months that was start of sept
[15:07] <eroomde> neo-7t will be the one to set my pulse racing
[15:08] <eroomde> they are wonderful little things. ublox are gd.
[15:09] <eroomde> UpuWork: have you got any further to figuring out the powersave mode issues with ublox 6?
[15:12] <UpuWork> no just chatting with navrac about it actually
[15:13] <navrac> got to boot up an old machine to find the code I used
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[15:18] <Darkside> eroomde: yep, 7t should be out next year
[15:18] <UpuWork> I can get the 6T btw
[15:18] <UpuWork> special order though
[15:18] <Darkside> hehe
[15:18] <Darkside> yep
[15:18] <Darkside> 7t will be incorporating signav timing IP
[15:18] <Darkside> which should be awesome
[15:19] <eroomde> what is that?
[15:20] <Darkside> signav do good timing chips
[15:21] <Darkside> good holdover performance and such
[15:21] <eroomde> so a sort of low drift clock?
[15:21] <Darkside> i've heard lots of good thigns about them
[15:21] <Darkside> a project at uni has been using signav modules for a while
[15:22] <Darkside> i think its TCXO based, but still has good holdover, not quite sure how that works
[15:22] <Darkside> i would have thought they'd use an OCXO for that, but anyway
[15:22] <Laurenceb> vctcxo
[15:22] <Laurenceb> ftw
[15:22] <Darkside> mm
[15:22] <Darkside> perhaps
[15:22] <Darkside> anyway, ublox will be using their tech in the next line, so that should be good
[15:23] <UpuWork> I'll get some samples
[15:23] <Darkside> i'm already using the 6T in my work
[15:23] <Darkside> the antenna at bath uni has a position known to about <1cm precision :-)
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[15:23] <Darkside> (not that i got that accuracy with the NEO-6T tho lol)
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[15:51] <The-Compiler> no idea if anyone knows me, I probably was here 1-2 years ago... finally decided to start my (first) HAB project I wanted to start back then. :D
[15:53] <x-f> welcome back! :)
[15:53] <SpeedEvil> :-)
[15:53] <navrac> not in a rush then?
[15:54] <SpeedEvil> I have various non rush projects on the back burner. all the way up to a moon lander,
[15:56] <navrac> i remember what i was going to do a couple of hours ago - check thwe current consumption on the ublox when its giving a fast output on the pps
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[16:11] <DrLuke> a moon lander... how hard could it be, right?
[16:11] <SamSilver> Laurenceb: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hyGJBV1xnJI
[16:11] <Randomskk> Laurenceb: someone who signed up for CUSF today
[16:11] <Randomskk> heard about it via chatting to you once
[16:11] <Randomskk> via #openpilot or something
[16:12] <Randomskk> the daughter of the guy who runs the n prize also signed up
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[16:17] <Laurenceb> Randomskk: nice
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[16:38] <Laurenceb> think i know who that is
[16:46] <Gadget-Mac> Upu / UpuWork or indeed anyone, any suggestions for a nice GPRS modem module (nice being cheap, and easy to design a PCB for) ?
[16:46] <Upu> the siemens one
[16:47] <Upu> gprs
[16:47] <Upu> err
[16:47] <Upu> might not be GPRS
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[16:48] <Gadget-Mac> Upu: Can I leave you to ponder that one :)
[16:48] <Upu> http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l2736&_nkw=GSM+SIEMENS+TC35
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[16:48] <cuddykid> I've been looking at the SIM908
[16:48] <cuddykid> for an alternative application - not sure whether the GPS on it can work well at altitude - very cheap though
[16:48] <cuddykid> GSM + GPS in one
[16:49] <Upu> GSM doesn't work at altitude
[16:49] <Upu> use an Iridium module instead if you can afford it
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[16:49] <Upu> http://www.rock7mobile.com/
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[16:50] <kristianpaul> orhacke sport messenger but is too big..
[16:50] <kristianpaul> sport/SPOT
[16:50] <Upu> or that
[16:50] <Upu> but I think it would cheaper for the rockblock
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[16:52] <kristianpaul> ah but no anual fees that better
[16:53] <Upu> yep
[16:54] <kristianpaul> btw ukhas conference was recorded somwhere?
[16:54] <Upu> yeah badly ..
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[16:54] <cuddykid> Upu: have you implemented that siemens on a pcb before?
[16:54] <Upu> go to the wiki kristianpaul, click conference 2012 and they are linked from there
[16:54] <Upu> cuddykidno
[16:54] <Upu> I have 2 modules though
[16:55] <cuddykid> no worries
[16:55] <cuddykid> I'll stick with the 908 for now
[16:55] <cuddykid> working through the data sheet and hopefully PCB will turn out fixable lol
[16:56] <kristianpaul> ah partiall, but still good
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[17:00] <kristianpaul> IMEI, is that GMR the iridium radio?
[17:01] <Upu> GMR ?
[17:02] <kristianpaul> geo mobile radio
[17:03] <Upu> I have no idea
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[17:35] <Gadget-Mac> cuddykid: 908 looks interesting
[17:35] <cuddykid> Gadget-Mac: yeah, been looking at it the past week or so
[17:36] <Gadget-Mac> For me I'm looking at remote automation / logging so GPS is less important. But could work well as a tracker I guess
[17:45] <eroomde> jonsowman: 1hr 15 to gbbo
[17:46] <eroomde> in honour of it technically but not in spirit, i am baking some eggs broken over a dish of roasted veg
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[18:09] <DrLuke> what's the hot wire thing called again? it wasn't nicram
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[18:12] <DrLuke> it was nichrome
[18:13] <eroomde> gollum?
[18:14] <DrLuke> well, I want to make my own cutoff device with a tiny amount of black powder around a nichrome wire in an acrylic shell
[18:15] <DrLuke> I've got black powder, and nichrome is no problem. I have no knowledge about acrylic though (or any other form of plastic)
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[18:16] <eroomde> DrLuke: ok no probs
[18:17] <eroomde> but i highly recommend u go for an e-match over nichrome
[18:17] <eroomde> they will be much more reliable, they're only about £1 each
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[18:17] <DrLuke> where can I get them?
[18:18] <eroomde> well, i'm not sure about the deal for you locally
[18:18] <eroomde> but if you have a hobby rocket scene in your country, then they all stock them
[18:18] <eroomde> for precisely this purpose
[18:19] <eroomde> if not, a foreign hobby rocketry supplier
[18:19] <eroomde> eg
[18:19] <eroomde> http://www.modelrockets.co.uk/shop/product_info.php?cPath=28_46&products_id=2199
[18:19] <G7PMO_Kev_Hotel> I make ejection charges like this, prob not as reliable as e-match but it works for me... http://user.xmission.com/~jry/rocketry/mini-bulb-mortar/mini-bulb-pyros.html
[18:20] <eroomde> that's pretty neat
[18:21] <eroomde> G7PMO_Kev_Hotel: are you a rocketeer also?
[18:21] <G7PMO_Kev_Hotel> yea, when I get the time :)
[18:21] <eroomde> awesome
[18:21] <eroomde> where do you launch?
[18:21] <DrLuke> thanks eroomde :)
[18:22] <eroomde> DrLuke: don;t let me put u off experimenting with nichrome
[18:22] <eroomde> but i think it might be less reliable to use, for something that you really want to just work
[18:23] <G7PMO_Kev_Hotel> mainly small stuff, launching locally, I have been over to Twycross a few times
[18:23] <DrLuke> true
[18:24] <G7PMO_Kev_Hotel> right, must go to the gym, otherwise i'm going to get distracted here, back soon :)
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[18:30] <SP9UOB> ok, my dsTracker micro up and running: http://aprs.fi/#!call=a%2FSP9UOB-11&timerange=3600
[18:31] <SP9UOB> http://sp9uob.verox.pl/IMG_9935.JPG
[18:31] <SP9UOB> http://sp9uob.verox.pl/IMG_9936.JPG
[18:31] <SP9UOB> :-)
[18:32] <navrac2> nice one
[18:33] <eroomde> yeah v smart!
[18:33] <eroomde> using a dspic?
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[18:33] <fsphil> I like your vreg heatsink :)
[18:34] <SP9UOB> eroomde: yes, also DSP demodulation of APRS
[18:34] <SP9UOB> fsphil: to heat up the gps :-)
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[18:34] <eroomde> SP9UOB: awesome
[18:34] <fsphil> indeed, looks great
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[18:34] <eroomde> as a brit i know nothing much about aprs
[18:35] <eroomde> can u give some details on what the demodulation involves?
[18:35] <SP9UOB> eroomde: so bidirectional communication with aprs messages is possible (after connecting receiver)
[18:35] <SP9UOB> eroomde: http://sp9uob.verox.pl/dstnc.html <- use google translator :-)
[18:38] <eroomde> impressive!
[18:39] <SP9UOB> eroomde: :-)
[18:40] <eroomde> 'przerwanie'?
[18:40] <SP9UOB> eroomde: - interrupt
[18:40] <eroomde> thanks
[18:41] <eroomde> so aprs is fm modulated?
[18:41] <SP9UOB> eroomde: yes
[18:42] <eroomde> that makes life easier
[18:42] <SP9UOB> RTTY code is also ready
[18:42] <eroomde> onboard decoding of rtty?
[18:42] <SP9UOB> WSPR modulation - in progress
[18:43] <SP9UOB> eroomde: with DSP core it is no problem to decode any... :-)
[18:43] <eroomde> yeah indeed
[18:43] <fsphil> sssh
[18:43] <eroomde> that's very nice
[18:43] <eroomde> i've not used dspics
[18:43] <SP9UOB> im waiting for uart camera - to implement SSDV
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[18:44] <SP9UOB> and log photos (with tracklog) on micro-sd
[18:44] <eroomde> this is good stuff
[18:44] <SP9UOB> 45 grams :-)
[18:45] <eroomde> i need to pull my finger out on the cortex m4 stuff
[18:45] <SP9UOB> eroomde: dspics are not very popular, but they are poooowerfull :-)
[18:45] <eroomde> the cpu power available is so massive
[18:48] <SP9UOB> here is example tracklog: http://sp9uob.verox.pl/balon/L120623.TXT
[18:49] <Laurenceb_> there is another processor with more power....
[18:49] <eroomde> ?
[18:49] <Laurenceb_> F4 something or other...
[18:49] <eroomde> stm32 u mean
[18:49] <SP9UOB> also MIPS32 core in pic32
[18:49] <Laurenceb_> thing wot i waste all my time developing code for
[18:50] <Laurenceb_> is a better description
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[18:52] <eroomde> Laurenceb_: what is the best toolchain approach to take for F4 stuff now?
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[18:54] <Laurenceb_> god knows
[18:54] <BrainDamage> the compiler is generally not problematic, it's the io lib that's somehow an open question, whenever using a rtos or not, or if the lgpl's license of libopencm3 annoys you, etc
[18:54] <eroomde> i don't midn register bashing
[18:54] <Laurenceb_> i use codesourcery as it supported fpu first
[18:54] <Laurenceb_> aiui
[18:54] <eroomde> so less bothered by that
[18:54] <eroomde> it's more jtag
[18:54] <Laurenceb_> but i dont know any more
[18:54] <Laurenceb_> codesourcery doesnt produce the best code
[18:55] <Laurenceb_> but in my experience ive never seen anything >10% better than codesourcery
[18:55] <Laurenceb_> iirc the "TNT" toolchain was within a few bytes of IAR
[18:55] <Laurenceb_> on several large projects i tested with
[18:55] <BrainDamage> if you don't have concerns spending 60$ or so, black magic probe is highly reccomended from most folks of ##stm32
[18:56] <BrainDamage> as jtag interface
[18:56] <Laurenceb_> on codesize
[18:56] <BrainDamage> hosts it's own gdb server on firmware so pc sofwater side is not problematic
[18:56] <eroomde> ah right cool
[18:56] <eroomde> what is the pc side on linux then?
[18:57] <Laurenceb_> i use "texane"
[18:57] <Laurenceb_> from github
[18:57] <eroomde> ok
[18:57] <eroomde> so gdb as normal
[18:57] <Laurenceb_> and i have a pile of discovery boards on my desk
[18:57] <Laurenceb_> to grab and use for debug
[18:58] <Laurenceb_> so arm-none-eabi-gdb with texane to talk to the discovery
[18:58] <Laurenceb_> ive got ddd working with it too
[18:59] <BrainDamage> eroomde: consider joining ##stm32 and ask, the channel gets offtopic fom time to time, but most people know what they are doing
[18:59] <Laurenceb_> nemiver refused to play nicely last time i tried
[18:59] <Laurenceb_> s/offtopic/trolltopic
[18:59] <Laurenceb_> apparently eclipse will work
[18:59] <Laurenceb_> ##stm32trolling
[19:00] <Laurenceb_> home of GNAA
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[19:13] <eroomde> BrainDamage: ok thanks
[19:13] <eroomde> willdo
[19:16] <Laurenceb_> /ignore dongs /ignore flyback
[19:16] <BrainDamage> and Laurenceb
[19:16] <Laurenceb_> suit yourself
[19:17] <SP9UOB> eroomde: Live from my freezer: http://aprs.fi/telemetry/a/SP9UOB-11
[19:17] <eroomde> SP9UOB: not often you get to say that
[19:17] <Laurenceb_> lol
[19:19] <Upu> lol
[19:20] <SP9UOB> ;-)
[19:31] <SpeedEvil> :-)
[19:32] <SpeedEvil> what temp?
[19:35] <SP9UOB> Warto6ci: Voltage: 8.520 V (TLM: 8520 EQN: 0,0.001,0)
[19:35] <SP9UOB> temp IN: -10.560 C (TLM: -1056 EQN: 0,0.01,0)
[19:35] <SP9UOB> temp OUT: 256 C (TLM: 25600 EQN: 0,0.01,0)
[19:35] <SP9UOB> Pressure: 984.480 hPa (TLM: 24612 EQN: 0,0.04,0)
[19:35] <SP9UOB> Ascend rate: 0 m/s (TLM: 0 EQN: 0,0.01,0)
[19:35] <SP9UOB> Stan bitsw: FIX CUTOFF (TLM: BITS: 11000000)
[19:35] <SP9UOB> -10.560 deg C
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[20:53] <MrScienceMan> has anyone managed to take a photo of London with a balloon ?
[20:55] <eroomde> yep
[20:55] <MrScienceMan> oohhh, can i see :)
[20:55] <arko> how can a ballon take pictures?
[20:56] <eroomde> arko: with a cmaera
[20:56] <arko> oh that makes sense
[20:56] <arko> cameras
[20:56] <eroomde> MrScienceMan: i will try and find it
[20:56] <eroomde> this was vintage cusf
[20:56] <arko> yeah, i tried to take a picture with a balloon but it popped :(
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[20:56] <arko> :P
[20:56] <MrScienceMan> arko: you pressed it too hard :(
[20:56] <arko> damn it, i'll be gentle next time
[21:00] <eroomde> not sure i can find it MrScienceMan
[21:00] <eroomde> it was Nova 5
[21:00] <eroomde> which seems to not be on flickr or my hdd
[21:00] <eroomde> Randomskk or jonsowman - any nova 5 stuff you've inherited?
[21:01] <eroomde> but u could see thames and the dome and most of the south cost and the isle of wight
[21:01] <eroomde> it was a hell of a view
[21:02] <eroomde> ok found a super shit resampled version from a previous version of the website
[21:02] <eroomde> http://www.cusf.co.uk/images/views.jpg
[21:02] <eroomde> the one on the right, there were lots like that
[21:02] <eroomde> so that's all of the thames and the south coast
[21:02] <eroomde> biut that's sampled down and truncated
[21:02] <eroomde> which is a shame
[21:06] <eroomde> MrScienceMan: ^
[21:07] <MrScienceMan> cool, thanks
[21:07] <MrScienceMan> were there ever any launches near london
[21:07] <eroomde> not really
[21:07] <eroomde> cities best avoided
[21:07] <MrScienceMan> aye :)
[21:08] <eroomde> cam might be the closest
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[21:08] <eroomde> tis about a 45 min drive from stratford to cam as i recall
[21:08] <MrScienceMan> ill look into it tomorrow
[21:10] <MrScienceMan> im thinking of launching from the city on a clear day and with winds that will send the balloon outside of it
[21:10] <MrScienceMan> want to take a picture from top, im thinking that perhaps during the night will be the best time
[21:11] <MrScienceMan> around the hours when everybody turns their lights on
[21:12] <MrScienceMan> recovery should be funn
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[00:00] --- Wed Oct 3 2012