highaltitude.log.20120918

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[06:24] <nosebleedkt> yo
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[07:31] <nosebleedkt> speak to me now
[07:31] <nosebleedkt> that i have good connection
[07:31] <nosebleedkt> :P
[07:35] <SamSilver> anyone seen nosebleedkt lately?
[07:35] <costyn> nosebleedkt: hiay
[07:35] <costyn> hiya
[07:35] <x-f> hi2u
[07:36] <nosebleedkt> yeah yeah
[07:36] <nosebleedkt> :P
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[07:36] <x-f> neat self-portrait - http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap120918.html
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[07:37] <nosebleedkt> watched that right before
[07:38] <x-f> then why u no share!
[07:50] <MrScienceMan> then who was phone?
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[07:53] <kiwi_> Hi guys
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[07:55] <MrScienceMan> hello kiwi_
[07:58] <kiwi_> I'm new here. Thinking of launching a HAB so I thought I'd stop by to see what's up.
[08:00] <MrScienceMan> great, what are you planning to build?
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[08:04] <kiwi_> Something very light-weight, measuring winds, temperature and humidity. But the temperatures up there is a bummer.
[08:07] <kiwi_> People seem to use thick layers of foam for insulation, but I wonder how much is actually necessary if one doesn't plan to stay up there?
[08:07] <gonzo_> normally within a few minutes of someone new joining, they are given a link to:
[08:08] <gonzo_> http://www2.cs.man.ac.uk/~popovr8/tiny/img/content/batt_showdown_nt.png
[08:08] <gonzo_> damn, not that one!
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[08:08] <gonzo_> Tis one
[08:08] <gonzo_> http://ukhas.org.uk/
[08:08] <gonzo_> sorry
[08:10] <fsphil_pi> you probably won't measure much wind up there, as your payload will be moving with the air already
[08:10] <fsphil_pi> there will be gusts though
[08:11] <gonzo_> you should be able to characterise the air movement by the track of the HAB
[08:12] <MrScienceMan> kiwi_: its not that thick
[08:12] <MrScienceMan> the material is light and easy to use
[08:13] <MrScienceMan> as well as provide insulation
[08:13] <kiwi_> Thanks gonzo_ :) I've visited the site, it's great. But there are always more questions :)
[08:14] <MrScienceMan> feel free to register and feel in the blanks ;)
[08:14] <MrScienceMan> fill*
[08:14] <kiwi_> Right, I measure winds by GPS.
[08:14] <gonzo_> but when you have been there, it makes the questions far more interesting!
[08:15] <gonzo_> I'm no expert, but I would assume that you can calculate the average winds, but the drag of the balloon, at the size it is at that altitude?
[08:16] <kiwi_> It's quite easy actually, most GPSes already report direction and speed. Altitude as well.
[08:18] <gonzo_> if you want to send that data down in your telemetry, that is up to you. Or you could calculate it later on the ground. Many ways to skin a cat
[08:18] <gonzo_> I think manyt of us here are more interested in the engineering process of building kit and getting it in the air, than the science that we could do with it.
[08:19] <gonzo_> so someone doing some real science is always interesting
[08:19] <kiwi_> I've launched low-altitude balloons already and found the GPS-reported speed to be more accurate than a calculation between positions.
[08:20] <kiwi_> I'm also an engineer and not a real scientist. :)
[08:21] <kiwi_> My planned payload is about 15g including non-insulating enclosure. So insulation might add really significant weight.
[08:21] <gonzo_> hehe, join the hackers crowd then
[08:22] <gonzo_> I've only done a small foil balloon launch (usually called 'pico' launches here). Which was not the greatest success, so no expert here.
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[08:23] <gonzo_> 15gm is light. A single AAA batt will cost you 10g
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[08:24] <kiwi_> Yep it's light :)
[08:24] <MrScienceMan> 15gr ?
[08:24] <fsphil_pi> yikes, my lightest payload was 200g :)
[08:24] <MrScienceMan> not 150?
[08:25] <gonzo_> my tracker was 60g with 3xAAA. But the insulation added another 40g. Though I recon I was a bit heavy with the silicon sealant to build it whicg was prob a lot of that mass
[08:25] <gonzo_> is upu's 6g board (less batts) the lightest yet?
[08:26] <fsphil_pi> I believe so
[08:26] <daveake> 5g I think. yes. My best shot was 8g
[08:26] <daveake> Runs from a single AAA so that makes 13g
[08:27] <kiwi_> Current solution is 18g plus enclosure but I can trim it down to 11g.
[08:27] <kiwi_> But without high altitude capability.
[08:27] <fsphil_pi> surely that only requires a large balloon :)
[08:27] <fsphil_pi> larger*
[08:28] <daveake> Insulation is probably the largest weight when you use something like this for HAB rather than pico
[08:28] <kiwi_> And ability to withstand -70 deg C..
[08:29] <daveake> Well, lowest I've seen is -53 and that was inside a payload (the seal wasn't sealed)
[08:29] <daveake> inside and outside sensors read the same that day :D
[08:29] <kiwi_> Interesting, and electronics survived that? Most components state -40 C as lower operation limit.
[08:30] <daveake> Yes no failures
[08:30] <daveake> May have been lucky
[08:30] <kiwi_> Maybe ;) Did you have a GPS as well?
[08:30] <daveake> yup
[08:31] <daveake> Actually ...
[08:31] <daveake> ... now I remember, that locked at I think 16km on the way up before getting a lock again
[08:31] <daveake> So that was a temp effect
[08:32] <kiwi_> You lost lock at 16km alt?
[08:32] <daveake> The alt got stuck at 16km (or 14, or whatever it was - somewhere around there) then started up again further up (where it's not quite as cold)
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[08:33] <daveake> IIRC the long/lat were OK still
[08:33] <fsphil_pi> was that the belgium one?
[08:33] <daveake> No that one had proper insulation :)
[08:33] <daveake> This was the one before. The UFO one. Landed in cambs. Same electronics as that later flight
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[08:36] <UpuWork> gonzo_ its 4g
[08:36] <gonzo_> it's been on a diet
[08:36] <daveake> :)
[08:37] <UpuWork> https://www.dropbox.com/s/gkcqxgivy40mssd/2012-09-12%2012.08.05.jpg
[08:37] <gonzo_> must be the lightest so far
[08:37] <daveake> My efforts seem so lardy now :p
[08:38] <UpuWork> going to try and launch that in october
[08:38] <UpuWork> but the power saving code is proving problematic
[08:38] <kiwi_> How are you trying to save power?
[08:38] <UpuWork> ublox cyclic mode
[08:39] <UpuWork> also that board can run at 1.8V
[08:39] <UpuWork> 1.8V GPS, radio and AVR
[08:39] <UpuWork> the cyclic mode doesn't work correctly though
[08:40] <Gadget-Work> UpuWork, nice piccie
[08:40] <UpuWork> with no power saving from a single AAA that board can do 4.5hours
[08:40] <UpuWork> with it can do 6.5
[08:40] <costyn> UpuWork: very nice
[08:40] <kiwi_> With a switching power regulator?
[08:40] <costyn> UpuWork: does it have everything? uC, gps chip, gps antenna, radio?
[08:40] <UpuWork> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/63720513/Images/PCB%20Pictures/pava-rev6.JPG
[08:41] <UpuWork> yes
[08:41] <UpuWork> everything but the RF antenna
[08:41] <UpuWork> its a boost convertor so can power from a single cell
[08:41] <costyn> very cool
[08:42] <UpuWork> I'll have one at the conference if anyone wants to see it and is coming
[08:42] <kiwi_> Impressive
[08:42] <UpuWork> yes kiwi_ its a TPS61201DRC
[08:42] <UpuWork> thanks
[08:43] <UpuWork> the GPS and RFM22B are on the rear
[08:43] <UpuWork> https://www.dropbox.com/s/1d5127zq322o6mq/2012-09-12%2008.19.10.jpg
[08:46] <kiwi_> Did you try the chip antenna solution yet?
[08:46] <UpuWork> yeah
[08:46] <UpuWork> works perfectly
[08:46] <UpuWork> all the top 5 highest altitude launches used them
[08:47] <UpuWork> I think
[08:47] <UpuWork> checking
[08:47] <UpuWork> http://www.ukhas.org.uk/general:uk_records
[08:47] <UpuWork> daveake did Buzz6 use the chip antenna ?
[08:48] <daveake> yes
[08:48] <UpuWork> at least the top 5 all used them then
[08:48] <UpuWork> the others I'm not entirely sure about but they work well
[08:49] <kiwi_> Ok, I'm looking at a fractal chip antenna but didn't try it yet.
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[08:54] <kiwi_> UpuWork, how will you insulate this small pcb?
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[08:56] <UpuWork> well
[08:56] <UpuWork> I'm copying daveake here as it looks cool but a hollowed out polystyrene ball
[08:56] <UpuWork> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Polystyrene-Styrofoam-Modelling-Balls-5-pcs-x-120mm-/270928835336?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3f149df308
[08:56] <UpuWork> painted pink ofc
[08:56] <UpuWork> you chop them in half with a hot wire cutter
[08:57] <UpuWork> and then hot glue them together at launch time
[08:58] <daveake> e.g. http://www.daveakerman.com/?p=352
[08:58] <daveake> Blimey that looks so lardy now :p
[08:59] <kiwi_> Cool :)
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[08:59] <cuddykid> looks like the aussie breakfast TV show is back on after not hearing back from them for a while! Tomorrow evening I believe now
[09:00] <daveake> Is there a #highaltitudefame ? :p
[09:00] <cuddykid> lol
[09:00] <Hix> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Polystyrene-Ball-2-Hollow-Halves-1-ball-x-300mm-/260276671553?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3c99b2d441#ht_1628wt_962 300mm Ø would be pretty cool for an miaging payload. Wonder if they are less stable?
[09:00] <costyn> daveake: whats the 3-pin port for? http://www.daveakerman.com/?attachment_id=356
[09:01] <costyn> "port" :)
[09:01] <WillDuckworth> UpuWork - loving the mini micro pico board
[09:01] <cuddykid> had an email saying would I be interested in being part of a documentary
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[09:01] <daveake> costyn - Short 2 pins to power it off internal batteries, or connect external power to another pair
[09:01] <daveake> i.e. I could seal the whole thing up way before the launch
[09:02] <costyn> daveake: clever :)
[09:03] Action: costyn opens his notepad
[09:03] <gonzo_> also useful is a connector for a removeable LED to show gps lock
[09:04] <costyn> gonzo_: I look at the received telemetry
[09:05] <daveake> gonzo_ I had non-removable ones on Buzz1
[09:05] <daveake> But that flight art won and engineering lost :D
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[09:15] <daveake> Hix I've used the hollow balls for photo flights, and they've been fine. Steve has used them too (e.g. the Manlab program)
[09:16] <UpuWork> just for the record stuff wasn't bouncing round inside there was a smaller solid ball inside
[09:16] <daveake> My last flight used one. What I do is put a solid ball inside the hollow one, and cut slots for the camera/tracker/batteries in that. The outer ball just has holes for the camera and aerial/gp. http://www.daveakerman.com/?p=715
[09:16] <UpuWork> https://picasaweb.google.com/118244444241111963790/201107ManLab#5635428145362569490
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[09:16] <daveake> UpuWork Steve di that too?
[09:16] <daveake> did*
[09:16] <UpuWork> Manlab people did it
[09:16] <UpuWork> had like a pink center
[09:17] <UpuWork> https://picasaweb.google.com/118244444241111963790/201107ManLab#5635428749426231490
[09:17] <daveake> Didn't see the centre on TV IIRC
[09:17] <UpuWork> with MY PINK GAFFER :/
[09:17] <daveake> :D
[09:19] <daveake> UpuWork You *need* one of these http://tinyurl.com/9vyqatr
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[09:21] <WillDuckworth> are you bringing the pink tape again upu?
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[09:21] <Hix> daveake: I like your balls.
[09:22] <Hix> so to speak
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[09:22] <UpuWork> I think I've run out WillDuckworth :)
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[09:22] <fsphil> I can bring some sensible Yellow
[09:22] <UpuWork> thats well cool daveake :)
[09:23] <daveake> Thought you'd appreciate it :)
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[09:23] <daveake> Tape you need - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PSP-Spinnaker-Repair-Tape-50mm-x-4-5m-All-Colours-kite-sail-Repair-/150859388307?pt=UK_Sporting_Goods_Sailing&var=&hash=item231feb9593#ht_1956wt_982
[09:24] <UpuWork> Thats what I use now
[09:24] <UpuWork> pink spinnaker tape
[09:24] <daveake> yup
[09:24] <UpuWork> The pink gaffer is actually very heavy
[09:24] <daveake> very
[09:24] <daveake> Usually the tape weighs more than the box!
[09:25] <gonzo_> you should use a different colour then
[09:26] <daveake> :)
[09:26] <fsphil_pi> "Polystyrene white"
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[09:55] <eroomde> Randomskk: f*ing python f*ing sucks for linalg. i loathe it
[09:56] <eroomde> it's so ambiguous, it randomly recasts the shape of arrays to 'try and make it work' if you do something that isn't actually mathmatical, which is criminally bad. thus you get nxn matrices floating around when you want nx1
[09:56] <eroomde> and everything breaks
[09:57] <eroomde> the state vector in this kalman filter is now 6x6 which is meaningless. it should be 6x1 and break if something tries to make it not 6x1. like it would in octave or matlab
[09:57] <eroomde> HATE
[10:05] <DanielRichman> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHosLhPEN3k
[10:07] <eroomde> this had occured to me
[10:07] <eroomde> though not as musically
[10:08] <eroomde> but seriously, whoever thought it's acceptable to try and make something work when it's not mathematically sensicle
[10:08] <eroomde> that's a pathology
[10:08] <eroomde> it should be murdered
[10:14] <BrainDamage> eroomde: http://www.scipy.org/NumPy_for_Matlab_Users
[10:14] <BrainDamage> are you using matrix or array?
[10:14] <eroomde> array
[10:15] <eroomde> mixing matrices in is badness
[10:15] <Laurenceb> whats the kalman filter for?
[10:15] <eroomde> BrainDamage: i make reference to that page a lot but it doesn't paper over some fundamentally silly things i numpy
[10:15] <eroomde> Laurenceb: tracking a single sat with a kf
[10:16] <eroomde> phase, freq, freq-dot for doppler and code phase = 6 states
[10:16] <Laurenceb> ah
[10:16] <Laurenceb> interesting idea
[10:16] <eroomde> well i've implemented it already in octave fine trying to bake it into my main code
[10:16] <eroomde> it makes loads of sense intuitively
[10:16] <Laurenceb> yeah
[10:16] <Laurenceb> bah
[10:16] <eroomde> it solves all the things that are crap with PLL-typle tracking loops
[10:17] <Laurenceb> need to find time to work on my cortex m4 gps
[10:17] <Laurenceb> yeah indeed
[10:17] <Laurenceb> you can go with full kalman...
[10:17] <Laurenceb> but im not sure how stable that would be
[10:17] <eroomde> I was reading that book you recommended thinking 'that's just stupid' when he was talking about how you have to pick a certain noise bandwidth as a compromise between able to lock in the first place (wide) vs quality of pseudoranges once you have a lock (narrow)
[10:17] <eroomde> it should be adaptive
[10:17] <eroomde> start wide and home in
[10:18] <eroomde> i.e. kalman
[10:18] <Laurenceb> yeah
[10:18] <Laurenceb> his implimentation is pretty basic
[10:18] <eroomde> yes
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[10:18] <Laurenceb> if i was spending less time doing CE crap... i could put some time into this
[10:19] <eroomde> in the oven there is actually something quite a bit nicer for some super-sexy reconstruction of highly dynamic things
[10:20] <eroomde> based on particle filters, changepoint detection and model selection
[10:20] <eroomde> but i'm keeping that one to myself because i want to publish something on it soon
[10:20] <Laurenceb> fun fact: kit that might be used in an ambulance/ by a paramedic needs to go through road safety tests as well
[10:20] <Laurenceb> funtimes
[10:21] <Laurenceb> 6m chamber testing Wednesday XD
[10:21] <BrainDamage> do you guys have some reference books on radar theory in general?
[10:24] <eroomde> not I. I know nothing about it. unless you want robust tracking
[10:24] <eroomde> well, i know a tiny bit in as much as i've had a go at building a bench altitmeter first pass as a prototype for our hovering rocket
[10:25] <Laurenceb> so...
[10:25] <Laurenceb> you are building software gps and a hovering rocket
[10:25] <eroomde> mmm
[10:26] <Laurenceb> are you kind of like "reaction engines awesome guy"
[10:26] <Laurenceb> "and here is our department of awesome"
[10:27] <eroomde> i work for a company of 3 who do mostly reaction engines stuff (about 80%) and they do seem to treat us as a little skunkworks, which is nice
[10:27] <Laurenceb> but does any work get done on the engines? :P
[10:27] <Laurenceb> ah
[10:27] <eroomde> but 20% time (soft gps, hovering rocket etc) is quite important to us
[10:27] <Laurenceb> yeah
[10:28] <Laurenceb> i work in the "only guy who bothers to do any work" department
[10:28] <Laurenceb> which involves actually dealing with all the shit
[10:28] <eroomde> there are lots of people working on the engine :)
[10:28] <Laurenceb> cool
[10:29] <eroomde> including a couple of people who've picked up a couple of things here and there about rocket engines
[10:29] Action: Laurenceb is currently reverse engineering http://www.finapres.com/site/page/2/10/Finometer_PRO/
[10:29] <eroomde> like alan bond
[10:29] <Laurenceb> but i never said that
[10:29] <Laurenceb> heh
[10:29] <eroomde> it's a bit scary talking to alan about thermodynamics and engines
[10:30] <BrainDamage> I think the official term is "comparative product R&D"
[10:30] <eroomde> i remember talking to him at dinner a few months ago about an idea i had about trying to manage cavitation in a turbopump
[10:31] <eroomde> and he said 'oh yes that's easy you just suoper-cavitate like this:" [napkin drawing] "it's quite straightforward really I did this once for something and the shaft speed was about 500,000rpm and it was about 5MW in a coke can. I'm not really sure why other people don't do it tbh..."
[10:31] <eroomde> leaving the rest of us bleeding out of our ears at the maths onslaught
[10:31] <Laurenceb> lol
[10:31] <eroomde> he is a powerhouse
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[10:32] <eroomde> i've never felt so, so, so dumb and entirely completely totally out of my league
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[10:34] <WillDuckworth> Laurenceb - are you coming to the conf again?
[10:35] <Laurenceb> probably
[10:35] <Laurenceb> if i can afford train fair
[10:35] <Laurenceb> *fare
[10:35] <WillDuckworth> so we can hurl abuse at ed
[10:35] <Laurenceb> lulwut
[10:36] <eroomde> i'm prepared
[10:36] <eroomde> i will just talk really quickly
[10:36] <WillDuckworth> plenty of pics and vids as well yeah?!
[10:37] <daveake> My talk is right before lunch. Abusing me will mean you just stay hungry for longer :)
[10:37] <eroomde> almost entirely that
[10:37] <eroomde> people definitely won;t want me rebaiting on about maths
[10:37] <eroomde> rabitting*
[10:39] <Randomskk> eroomde: numpy in particular?
[10:39] <Randomskk> sounds like you're having fun
[10:40] <eroomde> Randomskk: yes
[10:40] <eroomde> numpy in particular
[10:40] <eroomde> doing element-wise operations with a matrix and a vector
[10:40] <eroomde> and other meaningless shit
[10:41] <eroomde> i am not having a happy time
[10:41] <eroomde> i wish you could say something like:
[10:42] <eroomde> do f*cking linear algebra in this section { .... }
[10:42] <Randomskk> heh
[10:42] <eroomde> no go back to your heuristic bollocks
[10:42] <eroomde> now*
[10:42] <Randomskk> are you sure you can't turn off broadcasting?
[10:42] <eroomde> you can absolutely crap the place up by wrapping everything in asmatrix()
[10:43] <Randomskk> oh god that sounds pretty bad
[10:45] <Randomskk> meh. can't it work if you're careful?
[10:45] <Randomskk> i.e. does it only broadcast when you're doing things you shouldn't really be doing?
[10:45] <Randomskk> or does it broadcast when you would expect it to actually just operate normally
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[10:48] <eroomde> sorry connection interrupted
[10:50] <eroomde> you have to be careful about whether you want dot(H,P) or H*P
[10:50] <eroomde> they're equivalent in some circumstances and not in others
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[10:55] <Randomskk> I see
[10:55] <Randomskk> sounds like once you're used to it you could write the code you need reasonably easily, even if it is an annoying design?
[10:56] <eroomde> yes it's a question of prototyping elsewhere i think
[10:57] <eroomde> it also won't do intellient things like inverse arbitrary things
[10:57] <eroomde> it just says 'not a square matrix!!!!'
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[10:57] <Darkside> so i'll be at cambridge on thursday
[10:57] <eroomde> BAS?
[10:58] <Darkside> yeah
[10:58] <Darkside> setting up a receiver there
[10:58] <Darkside> will be there instead of wales
[10:59] <eroomde> similar geography at least
[10:59] <Darkside> geography doesn't matter much
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[11:22] <WillDuckworth> is that British Antarctic Survey, Darkside?
[11:26] <griffonbot> Received email: David Akerman "[UKHAS] Yupiteru MVT-7100 Scanner for sale"
[11:27] <Darkside> WillDuckworth: yes
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[11:28] <WillDuckworth> good stuff - how did that come about if you don't mind me asking?
[11:28] <Darkside> via my supervisor
[11:28] <Darkside> and because they'r einterested in a low-power HF data relay system i'm working on
[11:29] <WillDuckworth> i see. the old man works there now and then - will tell him to keep an eye out for a dodgy looking Aussie
[11:30] <Darkside> lol
[11:30] <Darkside> i'm likely only going to be there for a day
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[11:30] <Darkside> maybe 2
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[11:36] <Randomskk> oh oliver
[11:36] <Randomskk> he is forwarding an invitation to a Digi webinar on xbee to the ukhas list
[11:38] <mattbrejza> are you forwarding to the mailing list black hole?
[11:42] <MrScienceMan> anyone here played with thermocouples?
[11:43] <Randomskk> mattbrejza: I don't have the heart... hopefully another moderator will.
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[12:08] <nosebleedkt> how much time does a jetstream flight lasts ?
[12:08] <nosebleedkt> i sew a flight from US to EU
[12:08] <nosebleedkt> but they lost near me
[12:09] <nosebleedkt> how much time does this travel ?
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[12:09] <fsphil> balloon flight?
[12:09] <nosebleedkt> y
[12:09] <fsphil> the transatlantic one took 2 days to cross the ocean
[12:09] <fsphil> or was the three
[12:09] <nosebleedkt> lol
[12:09] <fsphil> it's only been done once so far iirc
[12:10] <nosebleedkt> at what height is that jetstreams?
[12:10] <fsphil_pi> wikipedia has that
[12:11] <nosebleedkt> cant we sent a hab inside europe ?
[12:11] <eroomde> ?
[12:12] <nosebleedkt> sent a hab from here to fsphil for example
[12:12] <eroomde> northwest?
[12:12] <nosebleedkt> no specific place
[12:12] <fsphil_pi> unlikely you'll ever get winds like that
[12:12] <nosebleedkt> just an example i gave
[12:13] <eroomde> if there's a wind that will do it, then yes
[12:13] <eroomde> if there isn't, no
[12:13] <nosebleedkt> aren't those jetstreams standart?
[12:13] <eroomde> in what way standard?
[12:13] <eroomde> they are winds
[12:14] <eroomde> they go generally in one direction at a specific altitude
[12:14] <eroomde> if that direction lets you do what you want, then fine
[12:14] <eroomde> if it doesn't, then you can't
[12:15] <nosebleedkt> where can i see what jetstreams are above me?
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[12:26] <russss> http://icons-ak.wunderground.com/data/640x480/2xeu_jt.gif
[12:26] <russss> it changes based on the time of year, but I think this is currently fairly typical
[12:29] <Hix> I've always like the word "Coriolis"
[12:29] <eroomde> yes
[12:30] <eroomde> it's very useful
[12:31] <eroomde> whenever you do some mechanics calculations and end up with some odd looking cross product term that you're not sure how it got there, you say wisely, 'ah, that's coriolis*
[12:31] <eroomde> and then move on with your life
[12:31] <russss> heh
[12:32] <kiwi_> Hey, does anyone use hydrogen? Or is it all helium?
[12:34] <Hix> mostly He from what I've seen and heard, though H is used sporadically. But only be the experienced
[12:34] <daveake> I've used H2 a few times
[12:35] <russss> it seems people are moving to using hydrogen
[12:35] <Randomskk> hydrogen is cheaper and slightly more lifty and much more burny
[12:35] <UpuWork> I think recently , in the UK anyway, H2 has been used more
[12:35] <daveake> Need to. He is going to get more difficult to buy
[12:35] <Randomskk> eroomde: yesss. used itertools.chain.from_iterable. feels good.
[12:35] <eroomde> He will leave us but He will come again thank's to the power of His love
[12:35] <russss> heh
[12:36] <eroomde> Randomskk: why and what did it let you pull off in one line instead of 2?
[12:36] <kiwi_> A sales person from a gas company said there's not a shortage of (the low purity) balloon helium.
[12:36] <eroomde> i'm about 4 seconds to switching into octave for this kalman stuff
[12:36] <eroomde> python has just pissed me off too much
[12:36] <daveake> BOC are restricting it to, basically, the people that spend a lot with them
[12:37] <kiwi_> Anyone knows what hydrogen costs?
[12:37] <eroomde> octave then C+GSL i think will be the way forward
[12:37] <Randomskk> set(itertools.chain.from_iterable(p.cats[rc][metric]["score"].keys() for p in profiles))
[12:37] <russss> kiwi_: this may true in an economic sense, but it is running out. The only reason it's so cheap is because the US government owns most of the helium in the world and they're dumping it all on the market
[12:37] <daveake> About £70 for a K cylinder, which is enough for 2 flights
[12:37] <eroomde> ouch
[12:37] <Randomskk> given a list of profiles which contain a .cats object which is a 3d dict where the bottom level is another dict and I want to find all the different keys in the specific rc and metric
[12:37] <daveake> vs £80 for a He T cylinder which is 1 flight
[12:37] <Randomskk> GSL really bugs me
[12:38] <eroomde> Randomskk: cripes
[12:38] <Randomskk> well, ruby-GSL, anyway
[12:38] <eroomde> Randomskk: what's up with GSL?
[12:38] <WillDuckworth> he's lost it
[12:38] <Randomskk> eroomde: all in one lovely line. the alternative is two nested for loops and an accumulating list
[12:38] <eroomde> daveake: you're ebing murdered on price there
[12:38] <kiwi_> russss: Thanks for info
[12:39] <eroomde> i probably got through more H2 yesterday morning than all of ukhas ever in total
[12:39] <Randomskk> eroomde: meh it just does things that were a bit annoying and isn't as nice as scipy
[12:39] <Randomskk> mostly meh C
[12:39] <eroomde> and it cost about what you pay for a K botlle
[12:39] <Randomskk> eroomde: what did you do yesterday morning...
[12:39] <russss> I think it's getting morally more dubious to use helium (but, to be pessimistic, if we don't use it, it's probably just going to go into party balloons anyhow...)
[12:39] <daveake> eroomde Yeah I'm sure. But I get no discount
[12:39] <russss> still probably worth using helium for a first flight.
[12:39] <daveake> I pay £44 + VAT plus a "collection fee" where they charge me to turn up and collect
[12:39] <Randomskk> russss: sadly the first flight is the one most people try to do as cheaply as possible
[12:39] <eroomde> daveake: ask for some L bottles and check the rental costs
[12:39] <eroomde> might end up cheaper
[12:40] <kiwi_> daveake: K cylinder is 50 liter size.. but what pressure..
[12:40] <eroomde> Randomskk: was just a rocket firing
[12:40] <eroomde> but the mass flow is about 5kg/s so it doesn;t take long to use it up
[12:40] <russss> kiwi_: they generally also have an uncompressed size in cubic metres in the spec
[12:40] <daveake> eroomde an L for H2? Not seen that on the BOC site. Just B (too small) and K (7.2m^3)
[12:40] <russss> kiwi_: and that's the answer ^
[12:41] <kiwi_> BOC is a gas company?
[12:41] <eroomde> dunno. we gut H2 in bottles that coem up to my chin
[12:41] <daveake> OK well send some over :D
[12:41] <eroomde> there's about 20 strapped to a manifold on the side of our #2 firing bay
[12:42] <russss> how much of that do you get through in one test? :P
[12:42] <eroomde> well the burns are only about 2-3s
[12:43] <eroomde> as it's a heat-sink nozzle
[12:43] <eroomde> and it can only sink about 3s worth of heat
[12:43] <eroomde> but that'll be about 10kg of H2 probably
[12:43] <russss> needs more cryo
[12:44] <eroomde> no cryo fuels on the stuff currently on the rig
[12:44] <eroomde> but the next engine we're testing but one is cryo
[12:44] <eroomde> a wierd mix of propellents
[12:45] <kiwi_> I called AGA and they said 427 SEK for 3.6m^3 of industry hydrogen.
[12:46] <eroomde> a different AGA to the one I'm thinking of
[12:46] <kiwi_> I don't know what kind you're thinking of :)
[12:47] <kiwi_> Anyway the price is about 1/5 of helium.
[12:47] <eroomde> that's not a bad price
[12:48] <eroomde> oi remember why helium used to cost that much
[12:48] <eroomde> kiwi_: where abouts in SE are u?
[12:48] <kiwi_> eroomde: Linköping
[12:48] <kiwi_> (Price of canister has to be added too, of course)
[12:49] <SpeedEvil_> you don't fly the canisters. :-)
[12:49] <eroomde> kiwi_: there's not much land between Linköping and the sea :)
[12:49] <kiwi_> SpeedEvil_: Preferrably not.
[12:51] <kiwi_> eroomde: You mean not much space for doing HAB stuff? GB has a fair number of such places too. :)
[12:55] <eroomde> kiwi_: yes.
[12:55] <eroomde> you might want to head west to launch
[12:55] <Hix> Saw a documentary about Antartica the other night, they launched a HAB, it was a wee bit blowy, amusing seeing the guy run at 45° with a balloon then release it and hit the deck
[12:56] <kiwi_> eroomde: Where are you then?
[12:56] <daveake> kiwi_ I've drievn though Linköping :-). On the way from Värnamo where I was working for a few days, to Stockholm for the weekend
[12:56] <daveake> driven*
[12:56] <eroomde> kiwi_: oxford
[12:57] <kiwi_> How academic ;)
[12:57] <eroomde> i am v unacademic as people ehre wil attest
[12:58] <daveake> And me. When I was young I couldn't even spell "engineer", and now i is one
[12:58] <eroomde> i used to live in cambridge if that helps
[12:59] <daveake> Worse. Just worse.
[13:00] <eroomde> i have never been to Linköping
[13:00] <eroomde> which leaves me out of the convo a bit
[13:01] <Hix> is it pronounced lynch-o-ping?
[13:02] <kiwi_> daveake: Cool but I figure you didn't really see Linköping as the highway pass outside. You might have seen the spire of the cathedral.
[13:02] <kiwi_> (Which is nothing like the grand cathedrals of England)
[13:03] <eroomde> I lived in Uppsala for a bit
[13:03] <eroomde> that had an impressive church/cathedral
[13:03] <kiwi_> Hix: Almost, I'd say.. lin-*chu*-ping, with an 'u' as in 'murder' (no other similarity)
[13:03] <eroomde> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Uppsala_Cathedral.JPG
[13:05] <kiwi_> Very nice photo :) But not up to par with Durham, which is silly big.
[13:06] <eroomde> are you natively swede?
[13:06] <eroomde> or is the clue in the name?
[13:06] <Randomskk> what the. did the docs.python.org style just change for everyone else?
[13:06] <kiwi_> Ja ;) swedish
[13:07] <eroomde> Randomskk: just loading it
[13:07] <eroomde> so i'll tell you tomorrow
[13:07] <eroomde> hrm it looks roughly the same to me
[13:07] <kiwi_> Randomskk: looks the same to me
[13:08] <Hix> I think I passed by there, en route from Nyköping to Molkom a few years back.
[13:09] <Hix> but was spending most of my effort trying to keep a rental car on the road leaving not much capacity for sightseeing :)
[13:10] <kiwi_> Hix: good priority
[13:11] <kiwi_> Has anyone used RFM22B and can report how it reacts to cold? Does it drift?
[13:11] <MrScienceMan> /fq 18
[13:11] <Hix> It was in February so it was prettly hairy at times. It was very impressive to see the locals flying down some of the country roads in 60's and 70's Volvos though
[13:12] <eroomde> kiwi_: lots of people use them
[13:13] <eroomde> they're driftier than the radiometrix ntx2
[13:13] <eroomde> but both are fine if you put a little effort into insulation
[13:13] <eroomde> Hix: yes i was in tromso in december a few years ago
[13:13] <eroomde> very impressive to see how everyone there has learned to drift round corners
[13:13] <kiwi_> Ok thanks. Any indication of how much drift we're talking about?
[13:14] <eroomde> kiwi_: varies a lot. few kHz typically
[13:15] <Hix> eroomde: I was going to tie into the drift convo :) Always wanted to go to Tromso in winter. Aurora central. mmm Aurora HAB images :)
[13:15] <kiwi_> That's not too bad. I thought maybe the device can adjust its frequency to counteract effect of termperature but the drift might not be consistent.
[13:15] <eroomde> they frequency resoltuion is too coarse i believe
[13:16] <eroomde> it is not continusouly variable as with the ntx2
[13:16] <eroomde> Hix: yes definitely
[13:16] <kiwi_> I'll consult the datasheet again
[13:16] <eroomde> i have some pretty cool aurora photos from when i was there
[13:16] <Hix> One of natures true treats
[13:17] <Hix> wouldn't like to try that sentence after a few ales
[13:18] <eroomde> i'm sure there as been plenty of chewing tits after a few ales
[13:19] <Hix> fsphil_pi: do you get Aurora much in NI? There's great dark skies on the NW coast
[13:19] <Randomskk> eroomde: hmmm
[13:19] <Randomskk> http://docs.python.org/dev/library/argparse.html#required
[13:19] <Randomskk> I think this is just 3.3 vs old
[13:19] <eroomde> Hix: http://i.imgur.com/k6ufn.jpg
[13:20] <fsphil_pi> I've only seen one really good show Hix and a couple of fuzzy green horizons
[13:20] <eroomde> that's jsut a grany shot with a very old compact camera
[13:20] <eroomde> but is fairly representative of what they were like when i was up there on lots of evenings
[13:20] <Randomskk> http://docs.python.org/library/argparse.html
[13:20] <Randomskk> cf. those two links
[13:20] <fsphil_pi> the good one had all sorts of colours, and pillars of green right overhead
[13:20] <eroomde> yes they are different
[13:20] <fsphil_pi> quite amazing
[13:20] <Randomskk> I guess I just haven't used/noticed the 3.3 one recently
[13:21] <eroomde> yes i witnessed one spectacular overhead eruption
[13:21] <eroomde> very colourful
[13:21] <eroomde> very specular too when right overhead
[13:21] <fsphil_pi> it looked like it was centered on me
[13:21] <fsphil_pi> suspect an optical trick
[13:21] <kiwi_> If you use RFM22B as receiver as well, there's Automatic Frequency Control (AFC) to counter frequency shift. If not using AFC, the frequency can be adjusted manually in steps of 156Hz.
[13:21] <Hix> eroomde: still nice image though. impressive that the compact picked up so many star details
[13:21] <eroomde> i don't know of anyone who does use it as a receiver
[13:22] <Hix> im guessing it was 15" exposure max if compact?
[13:22] <eroomde> Hix: some of it might be sensor noise :)
[13:22] <eroomde> it was about 4s iirc
[13:22] <eroomde> which is the max it would do
[13:22] <Darkside> eroomde: eh?
[13:22] <Hix> if it is noise it's sidereal noise ;)
[13:22] <eroomde> Darkside: oh yes good point
[13:22] <eroomde> Rx on the ground
[13:22] <Darkside> oh
[13:22] <Darkside> yeah, no
[13:22] <kiwi_> eroomde: I receive with RFM22B, but I haven't tried high altitude.
[13:22] <Darkside> link budget is all wrong
[13:22] <eroomde> kiwi_: precisely
[13:23] <Darkside> esp with 10mW output power
[13:23] <Darkside> it just isn't enough power to get a reliable link through
[13:23] <eroomde> Hix: it didn't get the colouts very well. that yellowy bit was actually fa more red/orange to my eye
[13:23] <Darkside> even at low baud rates
[13:23] <Darkside> might be possible with a really big yagi tho
[13:24] <fsphil_pi> we had some purple and red spots in that big aurora
[13:24] <fsphil_pi> they didn't last long ehough
[13:25] <eroomde> Hix: re: stars, got the plough in this one. it's odd seeing polaris so overhead
[13:25] <eroomde> http://i.imgur.com/Dtaz4.jpg
[13:26] <kiwi_> Sweden has a license-exempt band for telemetry at 439 MHz up to 500mW. UK doesn't have anything like that?
[13:26] <Darkside> no
[13:26] <Darkside> 10mW
[13:26] <Darkside> kiwi_: even 100mW is pushing it for the link budget
[13:26] <eroomde> 10mW airborne*
[13:26] <russss> and the 868MHz band up to 500mW, but it's 10% duty cycle
[13:26] <eroomde> you can go higher not airborne
[13:27] <kiwi_> Defeats the idea of a balloon
[13:27] <Darkside> eh?
[13:27] <kokey> kiwi_: ooh, interesting
[13:27] <Darkside> 10mw is enough for low baud rate telemetry
[13:27] <kiwi_> Darkside: that was in comment to eroomde
[13:27] <Darkside> but for higher baud rate downlinks its just not enough
[13:28] <eroomde> if you can fly 439MHz at 500mW with 100% dutycycle, that's very useful
[13:28] <fsphil_pi> 1200 is just possible with 10mw and large yagis
[13:28] <eroomde> one could probably do live video
[13:28] <fsphil_pi> 1200 baud*
[13:28] <kiwi_> eroomde: For a digital link it's far from 100% duty cycle
[13:29] <fsphil_pi> but I wouldn't want to rely on a high baud rate signal for tracking it to the ground
[13:29] <kiwi_> eroomde: Video takes a lot of bandwidth..
[13:30] <eroomde> kiwi_: yes indeed
[13:30] <kokey> you'd probably still want to do analog video
[13:30] <Hix> ooh, forgot I'd added this link to the Wiki, http://balloonhelium.co.uk/main/pricing on the http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:balloon_data page at the bottom. Is that the cheapest anyone knows of?
[13:30] <eroomde> but 500mW is a lot of power
[13:31] <eroomde> I know of cheaper nernernernerner *raspberry*
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[13:32] <Hix> eroomde: for normal mortals without a BOOC trade account and a huge order history.....
[13:32] <Hix> or indeed BOC
[13:32] <kiwi_> fsphil_pi: Why not high baud rate for tracking? Link budget again?
[13:32] <Hix> do they have a British Overseas Oxygen Company?
[13:33] <eroomde> Hix: cusf had neither
[13:33] <kiwi_> ...to serve brits when abroad?
[13:33] <eroomde> we just asked boc for sponsorship
[13:33] <eroomde> they said yes
[13:33] <eroomde> free He
[13:34] <Penfold> What a gas!
[13:34] <Hix> free doesn't count. ;D
[13:34] <eroomde> no ideed
[13:35] <eroomde> kiwi_: we've found that for rtypical balloon flights, telemetry doesn't need to be that high
[13:35] <eroomde> there
[13:36] <eroomde> it's really just oversampling, you don't need much more from a balloon that position and housekeeping every 10s or so
[13:36] <eroomde> having more link bandwidth is really only useful if you want to start doing something more interesting, like sending pictures down
[13:38] <fsphil_pi> kiwi_, yea. the signal tends to weaken when nearer the ground. slower data rates are more useful at that point
[13:38] <eroomde> if i had like 10dB more power, would probably just switch to fm to eliminite having to track drift
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[13:39] <kiwi_> ok
[13:41] <Hix> Been looking at the "Learning C the hard way", there's no reason I can't run Ubuntu on a VMWare VM on my W2K8 server is there? Just so I can remote into it from wherever and pick up where I left off...
[13:42] <eroomde> i don't see a reason not to
[13:43] <eroomde> it's very good that, so far, i think
[13:43] <eroomde> i had a quick read and tried a few of the exercises and was really impressed
[13:44] <fsphil_pi> ooh, there's a python version
[13:44] <Hix> sounds ominous, arent' you a dab hand at C already though?
[13:44] <eroomde> ish
[13:44] <eroomde> python is noddier
[13:44] <eroomde> how to program + learning python
[13:44] <eroomde> c version assumes u can program and want to earn c
[13:44] <Hix> fsphil_pi: eroomde originally put me onto LPTHW
[13:45] <Randomskk> the python version is the original iirc
[13:45] <Randomskk> "x the hard way"
[13:45] <Hix> maybe do LPTHW before looking too much into LCTHW
[13:45] <eroomde> i recommend doing LPTHW though, you'll blast through it at 100mph if u can already program so it won't take long
[13:45] <Randomskk> and I hear it is very good
[13:45] <eroomde> and he teaches packaging and tests and deployment and so on
[13:45] <eroomde> which is v good
[13:45] <fsphil_pi> did you learn anything from it eroomde? (The C version)
[13:45] <eroomde> fsphil_pi: yeah. he gets into networks and sockets and url handling and stuff
[13:46] <eroomde> which i'd never done in c before
[13:46] <fsphil_pi> nice. yea those can be a bit tricky
[13:46] <eroomde> and cache optimisation
[13:47] <eroomde> he has not finished it yet but you end up writing a VM
[13:47] <fsphil_pi> ah brilliant
[13:47] <fsphil_pi> that sounds like fun
[13:47] <MrScienceMan> i heard segfaults are the number one cause for programmers mental breakdown
[13:47] <eroomde> yes
[13:47] <eroomde> but thankfully he teaches you valgrind and gdb
[13:48] <fsphil_pi> valgrind is saved me a few times :)
[13:48] <eroomde> i managed to make a segfault that also segfaulted valgrind once
[13:48] <fsphil_pi> is/has
[13:48] <eroomde> with which i was quite pleased
[13:48] <MrScienceMan> still, you gotta bounce check before you write to an array
[13:49] <fsphil_pi> I learned C from bits all ove rthe place, so there's probably a lot I've missed
[13:50] <eroomde> yes same
[13:50] <MrScienceMan> i learned about linux from monzy
[13:51] <eroomde> i think i will, when i get a chance, sit down and go through it
[13:51] <fsphil_pi> a friend of mine got me into linux, who ironically uses windows now :)
[13:51] <eroomde> the problem si there is so much stuff i want to learn
[13:52] <MrScienceMan> windows box without cygwin
[13:52] <MrScienceMan> is just a headache
[13:52] <MrScienceMan> waiting to evolve into unstoppable migrane
[13:52] <eroomde> s/ box without cygwin//
[13:53] <MrScienceMan> generally i would agree
[13:53] <MrScienceMan> but it has its ups
[13:54] <eroomde> but for 3d cad, i do not miss it at all
[13:55] <Hix> My tie to MS, unfortunately
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[14:03] <Hix> shit, busted at work on remote desktop with code on screen. oops
[14:04] <Randomskk> what are you meant to be working on? :P
[14:05] <Hix> climate control ducting and air con lines :o/
[14:05] <Randomskk> :o
[14:05] <Randomskk> that is less like code admittedly
[14:06] <Hix> slightly, high end 3D CAD
[14:06] <daveake> You need a job coding, where your boss can't tell the difference between tracker code and whatever it is you're supposed to be coding
[14:06] <Hix> deffo
[14:06] <daveake> Or work for yourself at home. Works for me
[14:06] <Hix> problem is to get one of them I need to know how to code *catch-22*
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[14:07] <daveake> It helps. Though I have met some coders who struggle with that concept
[14:11] <fsphil_pi> lol
[14:12] <MrScienceMan> how can somebody be a coder and not know how to code
[14:12] Action: MrScienceMan infinite loop detected
[14:13] <Randomskk> MrScienceMan: the question you should be asking is how anyone can have a job as a programmer and not know how to code
[14:13] <eroomde> *be a* vs *declare oneself a*
[14:13] <Randomskk> and the answer to that is that they passed an interview
[14:13] <MrScienceMan> thats easy
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[14:22] <gonzo_> then once they are discovered to be useless, the mgmt that employed them will not admit they screwed up and that person will just get promoted as a way of getting them away from coding
[14:23] <gonzo_> that's why useless people become management.
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[14:25] <gonzo_> and when you get a proportion of tthose people in in those positions, they promote and judge based on their usless way of thimngs. So mgmnt become more inept. A sort of negative evolution
[14:25] <LazyLeopard> ...and if the're _really_ useless they end up managing a department of one.
[14:27] <gonzo_> if they are so useless that they are a liability to their mgmnt piers, then they get promoted even further up. S
[14:27] <gonzo_> The dross always floats to the top
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[14:30] <Hix> so it's the same as engineering then?
[14:34] <eroomde> work in a company of 3
[14:34] <eroomde> makes it easier
[14:34] <eroomde> or rather, harder
[14:34] <eroomde> to hide
[14:34] <eroomde> says me happily on IRC
[14:37] <Randomskk> haha yes
[14:37] <Randomskk> you are kinda using IRC
[14:37] <Randomskk> not that I can talk
[14:38] <eroomde> zackly
[14:38] <eroomde> s'ok as long as work gets done
[14:38] <eroomde> no thanks to python
[14:39] <eroomde> also i made up 14 identical and very boring cables on sunday
[14:40] <eroomde> which brought me very close to doing a foxconn
[14:40] <kokey> I had someone to pick up from the airport on friday night
[14:40] <eroomde> so i can have some downtime
[14:40] <kokey> I thought that would be a good way to prevent myself from going out for drinks
[14:40] <kokey> so I can be fresh on saturday
[14:40] <eroomde> how is meeting someone a good way to prevent going out for drinks?
[14:40] <kokey> but now that's been cancelled
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[14:41] <kokey> eroomde: I seem to be able to prevent myself from drink driving, fortunately
[14:42] <eroomde> pff you city people
[14:42] <eroomde> all puritanical
[14:42] <kokey> well, where I'm from, drink driving is what you do
[14:43] <kokey> there is no other way to go out
[14:43] <eroomde> where i'm from in france, there are often police in the grounds of a chateux after a big banquet
[14:43] <kokey> but if I get caught here they'll ship me back to africa
[14:43] <eroomde> helping people find their cars because they are too fargone to find them themselves
[14:44] <SamSilver> drink drive in SA is a sport
[14:44] <SamSilver> ^ kokey
[14:44] <kokey> for sure
[14:44] <kokey> it's part of the fun for the night
[14:44] <kokey> especially off road
[14:44] <SamSilver> if you tooo drunk to sing you become the driver
[14:45] <kokey> in in the suburbs seeing how many for sale signs you can remove
[14:46] <kokey> you're a durbanite?
[14:53] <SamSilver> born in durban , now in Pietermaritzburg
[14:53] <SamSilver> banana boy
[14:53] <SamSilver> surfer dude
[14:55] <SamSilver> where you from kokey
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[15:06] <HAB> what happened to the hab hub predictor?????
[15:06] <HAB> Pls help provide a solution??
[15:07] <jonsowman> what's wrong with it?
[15:07] <HAB> we have a launch next tuesday and need the predictor
[15:07] <HAB> I can't get it to work
[15:07] <jonsowman> "it doesn't work" isn't really enough information
[15:08] <DrLuke> Does anybody have a handy little website about LiMn batteries? I am most interested in the discharged-voltage, and a voltage-charge-diagram
[15:08] <HAB> It has worked the last couple of weeks though
[15:08] <craag> Works for me.
[15:08] <DrLuke> what does it show
[15:08] <jonsowman> also working fine here
[15:09] <Hix> anyone got experience of xubuntu? Figured it would be good for vm as it's lightweight
[15:09] <craag> Hix: I run it on my laptop, no qualms at all.
[15:09] <Hix> any no compatability issues with anything you've discovered?
[15:10] <HAB> when I run it on my laptop it comes up with nothing
[15:10] <Hix> assume as it's based on ubuntu it runs the same
[15:10] <HAB> no prediction
[15:11] <Randomskk> Hix: xubuntu is great, but if you want to try something new you could consider ubuntu + awesome wm
[15:11] <HAB> also when I use the burst calculator and click use values the burt altitude dosen't change
[15:11] <Randomskk> which is a cool tiling window manager
[15:11] <Randomskk> but whatever xubuntu is great
[15:11] <jonsowman> HAB: what browser are you using?
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[15:12] <Hix> I'll give it a go tonight
[15:12] <Hix> think torrenting at work could get me in som eshit ;)
[15:12] <HAB> safari used to work fine last couple of weeks same with 4 others at my school and home
[15:12] <jonsowman> try running it again now
[15:13] <Hix> jonsowman: its fine on chrome @moment
[15:13] <eroomde> i wish people wouldn't call themselves reserved keywords
[15:13] <jonsowman> haha
[15:13] <jonsowman> indeed eroomde
[15:13] <eroomde> i can't parse
[15:13] <jonsowman> Hix: yeah, fine here on chrome
[15:13] Nick change: Hix -> UKHAS
[15:13] <UKHAS> sorry ;D
[15:13] <jonsowman> >.>
[15:13] Nick change: UKHAS -> Hix
[15:13] Nick change: eroomde -> conf2012
[15:14] <conf2012> conf2012 is just around the corner
[15:14] <conf2012> afk
[15:15] Nick change: conf2012 -> eroomde
[15:18] <eroomde> i don't like saying things like this much, it feels wrong and not the way things should be with the zeirgeist
[15:18] <eroomde> but it's very refreshing using octave after numpy
[15:18] <eroomde> even the error messages for type incompatability tell you the size of each matrix. rather than just 'NOT ALIGNED!!!!11one'
[15:19] <HAB> sorry guys with my other computer the predictor works fine don't know what is wrong with this one???
[15:19] <jonsowman> have you run it again on that one, as I suggested?
[15:21] <eroomde> oh but indexing
[15:21] <eroomde> i need to design my own language
[15:21] <eroomde> 0 indexed octave
[15:21] <eroomde> with list comprehensions
[15:21] <Randomskk> eroomde: you can change octave's indexing iirc?
[15:21] <Randomskk> it's just terrible
[15:22] <eroomde> i would but the second a share some code with someone their face will fall off
[15:22] <eroomde> i think i'll just get the prototype running in octave
[15:22] <eroomde> then very carefully translate
[15:22] <HAB> yeh wont work on this computer don't know why because I have used it on here before with no trouble
[15:22] <Randomskk> that sounds like the best option
[15:22] <Randomskk> it's a shame that octave is nicer to prototype in than numpy really
[15:22] <eroomde> yeah
[15:22] <eroomde> well i love numpy generally
[15:23] <eroomde> just the actual ability to write lots of linalg is not up to octave standards
[15:23] <eroomde> and being able to write a = [1;2;3]
[15:23] <eroomde> is more fun that
[15:23] <eroomde> a = numpy.array([[1],[2],[3]])
[15:23] <eroomde> than*
[15:24] <eroomde> especially when it's a 6 x 6 matrix
[15:24] <Randomskk> true
[15:25] <Randomskk> it's a shame there's not much that can be done about that
[15:25] <eroomde> yeah. making it too linalg-happy would break a lot of other things
[15:25] <eroomde> and generally be unpythonic
[15:25] <chalcy0n> HAB: try cleaning your browser cache
[15:25] <Randomskk> maybe have a string interpolator
[15:26] <Randomskk> np.a("1 2; 3 4") wouldn't be too awful
[15:26] <HAB> ok i will try thanks
[15:26] <Randomskk> and you could use """ to write big matricies
[15:26] <eroomde> yeah
[15:27] <Randomskk> bah I was so hopeful it already existed
[15:27] <Randomskk> http://docs.scipy.org/doc/numpy/reference/generated/numpy.fromstring.html
[15:27] <Randomskk> but no
[15:28] <HAB> chalcy0n thanks it works now
[15:29] <chalcy0n> nice
[15:30] <HAB> this is the first time I have relied upon this how accurate is it? I am in Perth, Western Australia
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[15:32] <fsphil_pi> good place to launch from
[15:32] <HAB> thanks
[15:33] <HAB> not launching from exactly Perth but a few hours away from the city
[15:33] <fsphil_pi> understandable
[15:34] <fsphil_pi> cities and hab don't generally mix
[15:35] <HAB> yeh
[15:36] <eroomde> HAB: it's really quite accurte (to say within <10km over a 100ish km flight) if you can fill the balloon accurately and get the burst height right
[15:36] <eroomde> because you obviously tell it your ascent rate when you run the prediction, and that ascent rate is up to you when you fill to achieve
[15:40] <Hix> Is a UV filter in the payload aperture a good move, or does it cause condensation build up [likely i reckon]
[15:41] <eroomde> never bothered personally
[15:41] <eroomde> and yes there is an increased risk of condensation
[15:41] <eroomde> a circular polarasing filter could be fun though :)
[15:42] <fsphil_pi> my uart camera often starts overexposing the image > 28km, and I've wondered if it's the increased UV - or just the harsher contrast between the sky and ground
[15:42] <Hix> polarising filter would make stitching panoramics a pain.
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[15:42] <Hix> I'd go with contrast
[15:43] <kokey> too bad you can't easily take HDR shots
[15:43] <Hix> well you can do multilpes at differenc EV
[15:43] <Hix> good spelling
[15:44] <kokey> I guess you can do well with raw images
[15:44] <kokey> alternatively have two cameras mounted so they point in the same direction, with different apertures
[15:48] <MrScienceMan> fsphil_pi: sounds like your comera is avaraging the light over the whole image
[15:49] <fsphil_pi> I might need to aim it down a bit
[15:50] <MrScienceMan> does it have any settings for light metering
[15:50] <fsphil_pi> nah, basically a black box
[15:50] <MrScienceMan> it should do, tho
[15:51] <MrScienceMan> is it constant or does it switch when the center of the image moves around the edge
[15:51] <fsphil_pi> I'll have to test, should be easy to setup something with a similar contrast
[15:52] <MrScienceMan> just aim it at the sky and back to ground
[15:52] <MrScienceMan> usually there are quite a few fstops of difference
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[15:53] <MrScienceMan> enough that, you makes it impossible to get a well lit shot of both
[15:53] <fsphil_pi> it's a very basic camera
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[16:26] <DrLuke> Is it worth using an active antenna with the ublox neo-6?
[16:27] <DrLuke> I've just read that it has a built in LNA, so I'm not quite sure whether an active antenna actually makes sense
[16:27] <UpuWork> they work
[16:28] <DrLuke> but?
[16:28] <UpuWork> they take power
[16:29] <UpuWork> and for HAB usage they don't have much benefit
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[16:30] <DrLuke> oh well, this isn't for a HAB
[16:30] <UpuWork> in that case yes they work and have a benefit
[16:30] <DrLuke> but also a battery powered application
[16:30] <DrLuke> ok
[16:30] <DrLuke> thanks!
[16:30] <UpuWork> I did a version of the Arduino breakout with a "baby" active on it
[16:31] <UpuWork> worked well
[16:31] <UpuWork> ok afk
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[16:59] <costyn> is there a difference between the blue XPS and pink XPS?
[16:59] <DrLuke> one is blue
[16:59] <DrLuke> the other is pink
[16:59] <DrLuke> :)
[17:00] <costyn> very helpful, thanks
[17:00] <DrLuke> sorry couldn't resist
[17:00] <costyn> :))
[17:03] <costyn> the big consumer hardware stores don't seem to have any sort of xps ; going to try to find some pro hardware store
[17:05] <daveake> I've not noticed a difference. Aside from the colour :)
[17:05] <costyn> daveake: did you find it in a store or order it online?
[17:06] <daveake> online
[17:06] <daveake> Try ebay
[17:06] <daveake> There's a UK company that Upu and I have used too
[17:07] <costyn> ok. I can find it online in shops here, but you can only get it in large quantities for use in building isolation
[17:08] <costyn> I'd like to see if I can get just 1 or 2 sheets
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[17:13] <cuddykid> don't suppose anyone has a version of RFM22B uplink code to hand?
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[17:15] <Darkside> cuddykid: yeeeees...
[17:15] <Darkside> what do you mean though
[17:20] <cuddykid> Darkside: just want to have a look through and see how people have implemented it
[17:21] <cuddykid> got a couple of rfms on the way
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[17:21] <kiwi_> Catch you later, guys!
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[17:21] <Darkside> cuddykid: ahh right
[17:22] <Darkside> i need to do a bit more work on making my code pretty
[17:22] <Darkside> but once it's a bit better, ill get some stuff online
[17:22] <Darkside> as it'd be nice if everyone used teh same packet format
[17:22] <Darkside> also, uplinking to an RFM22B in the air froma nother one on the ground is a bit of a pain
[17:23] <Darkside> its technially possible, but the link budget is pretty marginsl
[17:23] <Darkside> marginal*
[17:23] <cuddykid> ahh ok, cheers Darkside
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[17:30] <Darkside> cuddykid: are you coming to the conf?
[17:31] <cuddykid> Darkside: unfortunately I can't make it - I've heard there is a talk on uplink stuff - will try and watch online
[17:31] <Darkside> i'm doing said talk
[17:31] <Darkside> which i should probably finish writing
[17:31] <Darkside> >_>
[17:33] <cuddykid> lol
[17:33] <MrScienceMan> or procastinate instead :P
[17:33] <MrScienceMan> thers a 'r' somewhere in there
[17:33] <Darkside> :P
[17:34] <Darkside> well i'm partway through "A Storm of Swords"
[17:34] <Darkside> and i'd like to finish it
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[17:41] <griffonbot> Received email: vk3jmc "[UKHAS] Re: Launch this Saturday 8th - Bello Mondo-11"
[17:42] <griffonbot> Received email: Oliver de Peyer "[UKHAS] May be of interest to those who wish to use 868Mhz airborne?"
[17:46] <costyn> cuddykid: there's some rfm22b code on the wiki, have you seen it?
[17:48] <Darkside> costyn: it doesn't handle uplink stuff
[17:48] <Darkside> only producing RTTY
[17:51] <costyn> Darkside: aah my bad. read over that
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[18:37] <Hix> WOW!!! Xubuntu on a brand new SSD, litle bit lively to say the least
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[18:40] <jcoxon> ping Upu
[18:49] <MrScienceMan> ping timeout
[18:50] <Darkside> no route to host
[18:53] <jcoxon> boo
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[18:53] <Lunar_Lander__> hello
[18:55] <Darkside> no
[18:56] <Lunar_Lander__> ?
[18:59] <Upu> evening jcoxon
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[19:40] <griffonbot> Received email: Radim Mutina "Re: [UKHAS] Slovakia Launch Announcement - STS-1 (Saturday 8-SEP-2012)"
[19:41] <Darkside> ooh
[19:41] <Darkside> i thought the DS18B20's were off
[19:42] <craag> Can I get someone to approve my flight doc on habitat?
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[19:42] <priyesh> Randomskk: DanielRichman: ^
[19:42] <Randomskk> yea
[19:42] <Randomskk> doc id?
[19:42] <craag> Thanks.
[19:43] <craag> 7eb65569b93645bde23c4e3f868fb252
[19:43] <craag> that the right one?
[19:43] <Randomskk> looks right
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[19:44] <Randomskk> approved
[19:44] <craag> Great, thanks!
[19:47] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[19:47] <Randomskk> you're welcome
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[19:59] <Lunar_Lander__> hi priyesh
[19:59] <priyesh> hello Lunar_Lander__
[20:00] <Randomskk> Darkside: hmm
[20:00] <Randomskk> I'm not sure which set of data I trust more
[20:00] <Randomskk> also the barometric altitude relies on an accurate air density model
[20:00] <Darkside> i trust the vaisala sonde
[20:01] <Darkside> yeah, i dunno about the altitude measurements
[20:01] <Randomskk> well it's not that
[20:01] <Randomskk> more that temperature measurement is not easy
[20:01] <Randomskk> and there are a million ways to screw it up
[20:01] <Darkside> the sondes do it properly
[20:01] <Randomskk> and what do you mean by "temperature", and the temperature of what
[20:01] <Randomskk> well indeed, I'm sure they do
[20:01] <Darkside> yeah
[20:01] <Darkside> air.
[20:01] <Randomskk> I'm suggesting that the DS1820s might do it properly too
[20:01] <Darkside> the sondes temp sensore have far less thermal mass
[20:01] <Darkside> as its a capacitive (?) wire temp sensor i think
[20:02] <Randomskk> thermal mass matters, so does airflow, wind cooling, radiation, ....
[20:02] <Darkside> yeah, the temp sensors on teh sondes are out in the air
[20:02] <Lunar_Lander__> priyesh, did you get my message?
[20:02] <Darkside> so yeah
[20:02] <Darkside> wind cooling, etc
[20:02] <Darkside> but the met bureau seem to trust them
[20:02] <Darkside> and use that data in their models
[20:02] <priyesh> Lunar_Lander__: yes, give me a moment
[20:02] <Lunar_Lander__> yeah you are right
[20:02] <Darkside> theres a few met bureau people at bath uni at the moment
[20:02] <Darkside> i might ask someone about it
[20:02] <Lunar_Lander__> measuring temperature on balloons is a problem that dates back to 1803
[20:03] <Lunar_Lander__> around 1900 they solved the problem with the aspirated psychrometer for manned balloons
[20:03] <daveake> Is that when you started your HAB project?
[20:03] <Lunar_Lander__> but again they couldn't be used on sondes
[20:03] <Lunar_Lander__> XD
[20:03] <Darkside> pfff
[20:03] <Darkside> psychrometer?
[20:03] <Lunar_Lander__> yes, dry and wet bulb thermometer
[20:03] <Darkside> ahhh
[20:03] <Lunar_Lander__> and aspirated by a device that drew an airstream over them
[20:04] <Lunar_Lander__> also encapsulated in reflective tubes and was read by a telescope as the thing was suspended some 1.6 m from the balloon basket
[20:05] <BrainDamage> vacuum container + small pipe?
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[20:06] <Lunar_Lander__> no they had a clockwork driven fan
[20:06] <Lunar_Lander__> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspirationspsychrometer_nach_A%C3%9Fmann
[20:06] <Lunar_Lander__> that is how it looked like
[20:06] <Lunar_Lander__> it's still used as a reference today btw
[20:07] <BrainDamage> no, I mean, it could be ghettoed in a balloon using a modern vacuum flask
[20:07] <Lunar_Lander__> yeah
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[20:08] <Darkside> it'll still have a lag problem
[20:13] <BrainDamage> small fan?
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[20:32] <Hix> Right Xubuntu set up SSD working speedily, not to start with LCTHW. god-speed
[20:33] Action: Hix breathes deeply
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[20:34] <Laurenceb_> aspirated psychometer
[20:36] <Randomskk> psych_r_ometer
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[20:37] <Hix> ooh - jumping workspaces with wheel mouse on the screen edge, inspired
[20:40] <staylo_> Sounds pretty extreme. Peripheral parkour
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[20:43] <Hix> :D
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[20:50] <Hix> any good C channels? or can someone tell me which character set i should use to view files after make. gedit falling over on chpt1[extra credits]
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[20:54] <DanielRichman> Hix: gedit doesn't like editing binary files at all
[20:55] <Randomskk> use a hex editor if you're going to do that
[20:55] <DanielRichman> it won't be able to interpret the output of your compiler in any character encoding
[20:55] <DanielRichman> vim will open it but it won't be very useful
[20:55] <Randomskk> ghex on ubuntu maybe
[20:55] <Randomskk> or just `hexdump`
[20:55] <BrainDamage1> actually it can, any ascii-8 encoding will transliterate each byte to an 8 bit ascii char
[20:56] <BrainDamage1> not that it'd be useful
[20:56] <Randomskk> that's not true
[20:56] <BrainDamage1> why not?
[20:56] <Hix> ahh - there is a section in LCTHW at the end of each chapter called extra credits, assume it's called that as the reasons above
[20:56] <Randomskk> plenty of encodings don't have a character for the entire possible value range
[20:56] <DanielRichman> well to start with there isn't an ascii-8 option
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[20:56] <Randomskk> for instance ASCII.
[20:56] <DanielRichman> (atleast not in my gedit)
[20:56] <Randomskk> and other encodings - utf-8 - might turn two or more bytes into a single character
[20:57] <BrainDamage1> utf-8 won't work, for that reason
[20:57] <Darkside> UTF confuses me
[20:57] <Darkside> horribly
[20:57] <BrainDamage1> does latin-1 have full table?
[20:57] <Darkside> i went to a talk about it
[20:57] <Darkside> and it still confuses me
[20:57] <Randomskk> nor will ascii, it only specifies any characters for 0-127 and most of those are non printing control characters
[20:57] <Randomskk> either way it's totally pointless for this
[20:57] <Randomskk> use a hex editor
[20:57] <Randomskk> Darkside: unicode is amazing
[20:57] <Hix> have to say I like the guy already, something quite pure about coding in gedit and then doing make then running ./whatever
[20:57] <Randomskk> Hix: compared to? that's how I do pretty much all my programming :P
[20:57] <Randomskk> though vim instead of gedit, for extra purity
[20:58] <Darkside> ed
[20:58] <DanielRichman> Darkside: then you'll love this http://unspecified.wordpress.com/2012/04/07/what-the-heck-is-a-character-anyway/
[20:58] <Darkside> not vim
[20:58] <DanielRichman> can't remember where I saw that
[20:58] <Randomskk> Darkside: 💩
[20:58] <Darkside> BUTTERFLIES
[20:58] <Darkside> real men code with butterflies
[20:58] <Randomskk> DanielRichman: yea I read that over the weekend I think
[20:58] <Randomskk> must have been on something :/
[20:58] <Darkside> DanielRichman: there was something like this at the talk i went to
[20:58] <Randomskk> wait no
[20:58] <Randomskk> I read this
[20:58] <DanielRichman> the important bit is
[20:58] <DanielRichman> When I type  (U+221E INFINITY) followed by Ì8 (U+0338 COMBINING LONG SOLIDUS OVERLAY), I get the single thing 8. Is this thing a character?
[20:58] <Hix> Randomskk, I've been using code::Blocks and the horrible Arduino (IDE)
[20:59] <Randomskk> http://unspecified.wordpress.com/2012/04/19/the-importance-of-language-level-abstract-unicode-strings/
[20:59] <DanielRichman> you might need to look at that character in a browser - it's not showing up properly in my terminal
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[20:59] <Randomskk> ^ was on my g+ feed a few days back
[20:59] <Randomskk> and is the same blog and topic as the link you provide >_>
[20:59] <Randomskk> but makes a very good point and comes out in favour of python3 above pretty much everything else so I like it even more
[21:00] <Randomskk> (and unicode and character encoding in general has proven highly annoying recently)
[21:00] <Randomskk> (stupid bloody phones set to polish and so encoding decimal separators as commas in JSON)
[21:00] <Darkside> hmm
[21:01] <Darkside> it was a talk by someone called jacinta richardson
[21:01] <Darkside> http://lca2012.linux.org.au/wiki/index.php/Miniconfs/OpenProgramming#Don.27t_hate_Unicode
[21:01] <Darkside> perrrrrrrlll
[21:01] <Randomskk> oh god perl.
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[21:01] <Darkside> she gave python examples too i think
[21:02] <Randomskk> better
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[21:14] <fsphil> I wrote a program in perl once. just once :)
[21:14] <fsphil> (it's not *that* bad)
[21:14] <Randomskk> yes it is!
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[21:14] <Randomskk> literally I once cat /dev/urandom | perl
[21:14] <Randomskk> and it was a valid program!
[21:14] <fsphil> maybe one program wasn't enough for me to hate it properly
[21:15] <Randomskk> that found relationships between prime numbers!
[21:15] <Randomskk> what the hell.
[21:16] <fsphil> perhaps this is how the first AIs will be developed. cat'ing random data into perl
[21:16] <MrScienceMan> /o\
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[00:00] --- Wed Sep 19 2012