highaltitude.log.20120917

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[07:20] <SamSilver> daveake: i am making a pot of coffee you want cuppa?
[07:21] <daveake> me no drink coffee
[07:21] <SamSilver> well i am buggered if am going to make coffee and a pot of tea!
[07:22] Action: daveake edits Xmas card list
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[07:23] <SamSilver> you could some great xmas post cards with your hab pictures
[07:24] <SamSilver> ^insert verb
[07:24] <daveake> True :-). Though if I do a flight in the snow that could be better
[07:24] Action: fsphil checks notaminfo...
[07:25] Action: G0DJA has made a pot of tea
[07:25] Action: daveake laughs
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[07:25] <daveake> As of last night I am now a great-uncle (again)
[07:25] <fsphil> yay!
[07:25] <G0DJA> Congratulations daveake - is it a boy or a child?
[07:25] <daveake> I had the scary thought that if my new great-niece goes to college, I'll be 70 when she gets there
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[07:26] <G0DJA> Ah - that answers the question
[07:26] <SamSilver> now we know
[07:26] <daveake> Interesting question though!
[07:27] <G0DJA> I think I nicked it from either The Goons or Eric Morcambe
[07:27] <daveake> :)
[07:27] <fsphil> my sisters youngest has just started nursery school
[07:27] <G0DJA> Most of my stuff comes from one or the other
[07:27] <G0DJA> My grand daughter starts Infants next September
[07:31] <costyn> G0DJA: "is it a boy or a child" <= not mutually exclusive :P
[07:31] <costyn> oh and good morning all
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[07:34] <G0DJA> costyn - That's the joke... It suggests that they are
[07:36] <costyn> G0DJA: I don't get it I think, I mean the humor. Must be a british thing :)
[07:41] <Penfold> daveake: you think that's scary? by the time our son graduates, my wife will be eligible for a pension.
[07:47] <G0DJA> costyn - Yes, it can be a bit weird :-) and I think it was Terry Wogan (who is a TV and Radio presenter originally from Eire)
[07:48] <G0DJA> Penfold I already qualify for a Pension from a previous employer...
[07:48] <daveake> I no longer feel so old
[07:56] <fsphil> hah
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[09:18] <griffonbot> Received email: MrScienceMan "[UKHAS] Re: Comparison of AA batteries"
[09:23] <nosebleedkt> hi, any linux developer here?
[09:23] <nosebleedkt> I got a 64bit system and I want to build a project for 32bit
[09:23] <nosebleedkt> ../configure has got some flag to do that?
[09:25] <jgrahamc> Usually you want to set CFLAGS (and equivalents) to -m32
[09:25] <jgrahamc> Try doing something like: ./configure --build=i686-pc-linux-gnu "CFLAGS=-m32" "CXXFLAGS=-m32" "LDFLAGS=-m32"
[09:26] <nosebleedkt> ok
[09:26] <nosebleedkt> let me try!
[09:28] <fsphil> I'm guessing that requires 32-bit versions of any dependencies
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[09:31] <nosebleedkt> C compiler cannot create executables
[09:31] <nosebleedkt> :P
[09:31] <fsphil> configure can be so user friendly
[09:31] <kaktus> you probably lack 32bit build env
[09:32] <costyn> MrScienceMan: nice link to the battery graph. useful :) looks like Energizer Lithiums are still the winners
[09:34] <MrScienceMan> duracell seems to be quite overhyped
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[09:35] <fsphil> a much more useful graph would be one done vs. temperature
[09:35] <fsphil> a nice project for someone there
[09:36] <costyn> fsphil: that'd be a lot of flights and batteries to send up
[09:36] <costyn> but yes
[09:36] <fsphil> well, a fridge :)
[09:36] <costyn> yea
[09:36] <costyn> after I hit enter I realized i was being dumb
[09:36] <MrScienceMan> is it the same?
[09:37] <Adam012> If anyone can help/offer advice...we'd like to use the pre-launch checklist from the UKHAS wiki on our website. If we are allowed to use it then we'll credit UKHAS as the source and link UKHAS on the page. Is this okay?
[09:37] <daveake> Useful as that site is for some applications, for us any tests have to be done at low temps, so it's pretty useless
[09:37] <nosebleedkt> jgrahamc, I also need 32bit versions of installed libraries
[09:37] <nosebleedkt> which I don't have
[09:38] <fsphil> woo, I was right
[09:38] <nosebleedkt> fsphil, ;)
[09:39] <nosebleedkt> phil I became famous here :P
[09:39] <nosebleedkt> everyday i give a radio interview here
[09:39] <fsphil> sweet
[09:39] <fsphil> been on the telly yet?
[09:39] <jgrahamc> Can't really help nosebleedkt. You'll need the 32 bit environment installed as well.
[09:40] <nosebleedkt> jgrahamc, yes. At least I know what Iam missing.
[09:40] <DanielRichman> are you on ubuntu or debian nosebleedkt ?
[09:40] <nosebleedkt> fsphil, TV twice already
[09:40] <nosebleedkt> they want more but I start to reject.
[09:40] <nosebleedkt> there is a lot of pressure for me
[09:41] <fsphil> yea, never do anything unless you want to
[09:41] <nosebleedkt> DanielRichman, no. It's a custom distribution
[09:41] <costyn> nosebleedkt can't handle the fame eh?
[09:41] <nosebleedkt> costyn, yea
[09:41] <nosebleedkt> https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/426922_517723801575002_1739286848_n.jpg
[09:41] <nosebleedkt> thats from 2 days ago
[09:41] <costyn> :)
[09:42] <nosebleedkt> https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/383799_507122845968431_564882948_n.jpg
[09:42] <nosebleedkt> that from 1 montha ago
[09:42] <nosebleedkt> same channel
[09:42] <nosebleedkt> other asked too but i rejected
[09:42] <nosebleedkt> cant do that
[09:42] <nosebleedkt> i need to go in bathroom 3 times per interview
[09:42] <nosebleedkt> lol
[09:42] <costyn> haha
[09:43] <costyn> google.com/search?q=adult+diapers
[09:43] <costyn> (sorry)
[09:43] <costyn> :P
[09:43] <fsphil> I don't envy anyone doing the media stuff
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[09:44] <nosebleedkt> envy?
[09:44] <costyn> nosebleedkt: he's happy he's not you :)
[09:44] <fsphil> I wouldn't want to be doing it myself
[09:44] <nosebleedkt> :LP
[09:44] <nosebleedkt> :P
[09:44] <jgrahamc> Anyone here who's got kids and wants them to know about the Babbage project I'm involved in should watch BBC Newsround tomorrow.
[09:45] <MrScienceMan> 1 Yes, these are genuine Ford Motor Company AA batteries.
[09:45] <MrScienceMan> 2 These batteries leaked after the 200mA discharge.
[09:45] <MrScienceMan> wow, didnt realize form made batteries
[09:45] <MrScienceMan> ford*
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[09:45] <MrScienceMan> too bad they leak :(
[09:47] <costyn> lol
[09:47] <costyn> MrScienceMan: that's so unacceptable
[09:48] <MrScienceMan> :D
[09:49] <costyn> will the conference be recorded to video? I'd be interested to see it
[09:49] <costyn> at least the talks
[09:49] <fsphil> streamed and recorded costyn
[09:52] <costyn> fsphil: awesome thanks
[09:52] <costyn> man... this is a *nice* button; now I want to make something just so i can incorporate it: http://www.dfrobot.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=440#.UFbyv6T9PfA
[09:54] <eroomde> costyn: welcome to my world
[09:54] <eroomde> panel porn
[09:54] <eroomde> being delighted over a nice toggle switch
[09:54] <costyn> eroomde: :D
[09:55] <eroomde> http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3236/3066885874_3c1cbb6208.jpg
[09:55] <eroomde> sealed spade toggle switches with individual guards
[09:55] <eroomde> it's very nice
[09:56] <costyn> nice, what are we looking at?
[09:56] <costyn> have a larger resolution?
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[10:00] <jgrahamc> Trouble with those NASA circuit breaker switches is that they break off easily when you are leaving the Apollo 11 capsule on the moon and you can't fire the ascent engines unless you fix them with a pen you have in your pocket: http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-blogs/dsp-designline-blog/4034392/How-a-felt-tipped-pen-saved-the-Apollo-11-mission
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[10:04] <costyn> jgrahamc: good god, I can't imagine the thought that go through you as you realize how important that bit of plastic is
[10:10] <russss> there's an ebay seller who custom builds replicas of those space shuttle toggle switch guards
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[10:47] <eroomde> costyn: sorry actual work got in the way
[10:47] <eroomde> ut was just 'apollo switch panel' in google images
[10:47] <eroomde> there are lots
[10:47] <eroomde> :)
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[10:50] <eroomde> http://xkcd.com/1109/
[10:50] <eroomde> YES
[10:52] <DrLuke> haha, brilliant
[10:52] <eroomde> jgrahamc: nice link
[10:52] <eroomde> ty
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[10:54] <costyn> eroomde: very nice that fridge :)
[10:57] <Laurenceb> http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ll=54.423758,-3.499824&spn=0.000776,0.002642&gl=uk&t=h&z=19
[10:57] <Laurenceb> hook on a quadcopter anyone?
[11:00] <jgrahamc> Thanks, eroomde. BTW I highly recommend "Digital Apollo" if you are into the technical side of Apollo mixed with some human stories.
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[11:05] <costyn> Laurenceb: what are we looking at?
[11:05] <Laurenceb> waste pond with no roof
[11:05] <Laurenceb> you can see the fuel in there
[11:06] <costyn> that's what I thought it was. but why is there no roof
[11:06] <costyn> this looks hazardoes
[11:07] <costyn> * hazardous
[11:08] <Laurenceb> yeah
[11:10] <eroomde> jgrahamc: yeah i saw it did the rounds on some blogs a few weeks ago
[11:10] <eroomde> i might give it a try
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[11:11] <costyn> Laurenceb: maybe this is it? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sellafield#B30
[11:11] <Laurenceb> yes it is
[11:12] <costyn> interesting that a person cannot be more than 2 minutes closeto it, yet algae are apparently thriving
[11:13] <jgrahamc> http://sellafieldsites.com/2011/05/decommissioning-the-worlds-largest-open-air-nuclear-fuel-storage-pond-continues/
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[11:16] <costyn> so what do they do with rainwater? What happens to the runoff? I guess it has to go for procssing as well
[11:17] <costyn> ugh, nasty business this
[11:31] <eroomde> jgrahamc: speaking of digital apollo, i'm *especially* interested in any information about the apollo landing radar
[11:31] <eroomde> the more deep and technical the better
[11:32] <eroomde> you you have, or do, bump into anything, i'd be very interested to hear
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[11:56] <craag> Sod's law - The best predictions I've got are for Saturday.
[11:59] <LazyLeopard> Heh. The conference has competition. ;)
[12:01] Action: LazyLeopard is helping with a Foundation course that day...
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[12:08] <jgrahamc> eroomde: there is some information about the radar in Digital Apollo.
[12:08] <eroomde> jgrahamc: technical?
[12:09] <jgrahamc> Fairly, although it's a popular science book.
[12:10] <jgrahamc> Also, there's http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/alsj-LMRadars.html
[12:10] <eroomde> i'm really interested in pricesly how it works - freqs, modulation schemes, hardware, sigproc
[12:10] <eroomde> yeah i've read that report a few times
[12:10] <eroomde> but it's all a bit hand wavy
[12:11] <Laurenceb> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/09/17/apple_iphone_5_shortage/
[12:11] <Laurenceb> lolling
[12:13] <LazyLeopard> ;)
[12:13] <eroomde> jgrahamc: i should have read the article more - the editor comments are quite useful
[12:14] <eroomde> that's as far as i've got too (fm modulate a traingle wave over a carrier)
[12:14] <jgrahamc> Another fun Apollo 11 thing is that the descent engine throttle was all over the place during approach to the moon's surface.
[12:15] <jgrahamc> http://www.klabs.org/history/apollo_11_alarms/eyles_2004/eyles_2004.htm
[12:18] <costyn> Laurenceb: harsh article :)
[12:20] <eroomde> yeah I read that
[12:20] <eroomde> if it's on klabs, i have probably read it at least 3 times
[12:20] <eroomde> the place is a treasure chest
[12:53] <eroomde> jgrahamc: I think you might enjoy this one i've you've not seen it
[12:53] <eroomde> klabs.org/DEI/Processor/shuttle/garman_bug_81.pdf
[12:54] <eroomde> a bug that grounded the first every shuttle launch at T-20 mins
[12:54] <eroomde> ever*
[12:54] <jgrahamc> Reading it.
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[12:59] <jgrahamc> Very interesting eroomde
[13:07] <Laurenceb> just use insecticide
[13:13] <eroomde> there's a photography doing something with james next door. he sounds a lot like a dentist
[13:14] <eroomde> 'so we'll just psoition this here, if you could just hold that position for a few seconds, it won't be long.. and hold... there all done'
[13:14] <daveake> "open wide" ... what kind of photographer?
[13:14] <costyn> heh
[13:14] <eroomde> news
[13:14] <Randomskk> "news"
[13:15] <eroomde> someone saw that westcott was still doing rocket research on that three rocketeers documentary
[13:15] <daveake> Has he been in France recently?
[13:15] <eroomde> and so there's mean a mild bump of interest
[13:15] <eroomde> been*
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[13:22] <yameen> Hello there! I am involved in a project to send up a weather balloon for some high altitude photography, as a initial project to get use to all the things we will need to do, we are going to send up a pico balloon, my question is where is the best place to buy these types of balloon and how heavy a payload can they take, and where does one buy the helium?
[13:22] <eroomde> yameen: where are you located?
[13:22] <yameen> Manchester
[13:22] <yameen> Salford
[13:22] <eroomde> ah nice and easy
[13:22] <eroomde> well, daveake is currently here and has launched some foil pico balloons
[13:23] <eroomde> so he can probably tell you were he buys the balloons
[13:23] <yameen> thanks!
[13:23] <eroomde> helium in small quantitues for a pico balloon is most easily bought from a party shop
[13:23] <daveake> http://randomsolutions.co.uk/Random_Aerospace/Balloons.html but he has no stock
[13:23] <daveake> otherwise ebay
[13:23] <eroomde> i think payload is basically 25-50g?
[13:23] <daveake> e.g. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Metallic-Silver-36-Foil-Round-Shape-Balloon-Qualatex-/320621296443?pt=UK_Home_Garden_Celebrations_Occasions_ET&hash=item4aa684bb3b#ht_2354wt_1397
[13:24] <daveake> Yup
[13:24] <yameen> kewl, I can buy small amounts (for party balloons) from costco if thats enough
[13:24] <daveake> Yes the paty balloon disposable cylinders hold enough for this
[13:25] <yameen> Excellent! 50g upper limit is not alot !
[13:25] <UpuWork> not for a camera
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[13:25] <daveake> no, but I made a tracker using off-the-shelf modules for around 15g. That one needed 3 AAAs though which add another 24g
[13:26] <daveake> Presumably the pico is for a non-camera test flight?
[13:26] <yameen> well its our prelim project before we send something of more substance up, we were hoping to put a camera on board, maybe not.
[13:27] <UpuWork> do you have the time to develop your own tracker board or are you wanting to just do a payload and get a lift ?
[13:29] <yameen> were thinking of having a tracker
[13:29] <UpuWork> ok thats good
[13:29] <yameen> this is quickly becoming too limited for a foil ballon?
[13:29] <daveake> You mean make a radio tracker, or use a GSM off-the-shelf tracker?
[13:30] <UpuWork> a foil balloon will take one of the smaller trackers up but won't take a camera up
[13:30] <UpuWork> also it won't get very high
[13:30] <UpuWork> 5km ish +/- 3km
[13:30] <UpuWork> +3km/-5.1km :)
[13:31] <yameen> ah ok, thinking gsm tracke
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[13:31] <UpuWork> ok we wouldn't recommend a GSM tracker for a number of reasons
[13:31] <daveake> Well, there's no point doing a pico flight with one of those
[13:31] <UpuWork> the primary one is they don't work above a certain altitude ~2km
[13:31] <costyn> I a pico payload is harder for a first balloon than a big latex balloon
[13:31] <costyn> I think a*
[13:31] <UpuWork> and if you land somewhere without coverage game over
[13:34] <UpuWork> if you make your own tracker it can be very light
[13:34] <yameen> ok, this feels like we need to reconsider quite a bit. Another question, where would we buy a latex balloon and assuming gas requirements are much greater where can we get hold of the gas?
[13:35] <eroomde> randomengineering for the balloon
[13:35] <eroomde> for gas you want to try 'Air Products' or 'BOC'
[13:35] <eroomde> or others which i've 0 experience with so weon't recommend
[13:35] <daveake> Don't bother with Air Products
[13:35] <yameen> Is there a wiki page/site that can help us build our own tracker? randomengineering?
[13:35] <UpuWork> yameen daveake make this : https://dl.dropbox.com/u/63720513/Images/PCB%20Pictures/yqjSc.jpg
[13:36] <UpuWork> made even
[13:36] <eroomde> yameen: there is more information that you need to make a tracker on ukhas.org.uk
[13:36] <costyn> UpuWork: yea but that's dave
[13:36] <UpuWork> :)
[13:36] <daveake> :p
[13:36] Action: costyn is terribly impressed :)
[13:36] <UpuWork> amazingly that pile of wires has flown more than once :)
[13:36] <yameen> thanks for info. is randomengineering a company?
[13:37] <UpuWork> yes it is
[13:37] <daveake> 5 times no issues
[13:37] <UpuWork> Can't argue with that
[13:37] <eroomde> run by one of the hobbyists here
[13:37] <costyn> daveake: this is only for pico loads right?
[13:37] <eroomde> it's flown on a rocket too
[13:37] <daveake> That one's not seen a pico flight
[13:37] <daveake> oh yus :)
[13:37] <UpuWork> pico flights tend not to use the Sarantel antenna
[13:37] <UpuWork> as every gram matters
[13:38] <costyn> daveake: ah ok :) what kind of use do you get out of your bmp085? doesn't it stop becoming useful after like 35k or so?
[13:38] <UpuWork> oo
[13:38] <daveake> this one did a pico flight http://www.daveakerman.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/DSCF7134-1024x768.jpg
[13:38] <UpuWork> I have science for that costyn 1 sec
[13:39] <Darkside> costyn: it died at 38km
[13:39] <Darkside> i have graphs
[13:39] <UpuWork> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/63720513/Images/HAB/horus15_5_alt_pressure.png
[13:39] <UpuWork> Darkside's graph
[13:39] <Darkside> http://rfhead.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/horus15_5_alt_pressure.png
[13:39] <Darkside> smap
[13:39] <Darkside> snap
[13:39] <costyn> )
[13:39] <UpuWork> sceince!!1
[13:39] <costyn> :)
[13:39] <eroomde> no bot to help you now huh big boy
[13:39] <Darkside> eroomde: :(
[13:39] <costyn> UpuWork: my point is made, thanks
[13:40] <yameen> ok, thanks guys for all the info! Appreciate the help, going to rethink some of our plans. Probably will have to launch a full size balloon and probably at one of the ukhas sites
[13:40] <costyn> I had one on mine because a teammate wantd it, but of course he's done nothing with the data
[13:41] <eroomde> yameen: there aren't really any official 'ukhas sites', in that each common site is actually run by an individual ukhas member in their name(s). so get in contact with one of them with plenty of time if you want to launch at a specific time, as they'll have to be around agree to help out
[13:41] <eroomde> usually people are very happy to help out, but one still has to ask in plenty of time just as a courtesy ;)
[13:42] <yameen> understood cheers
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[13:45] <craag> Btw: Quick on-topic question. Is 10g a good amount of free lift to aim for in a pico fill?
[13:45] <daveake> Well, I do it by timing it ascending up the stairs :)
[13:46] <craag> Ah ok!
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[13:47] <craag> How do you attach the payload and can still adjust the fill?
[13:47] <daveake> The neck extends way below the filling point
[13:47] <daveake> See http://www.ukhas.org.uk/projects:microballoons:data?s[]=foil for info on previous flights
[13:48] <craag> Ah, makes it easy. I get mine out and have a look. Thanks!
[13:48] <daveake> So my last one had 35g neck lift and went up at 1m/s. So maybe aim for 10-15g
[13:48] <craag> Yep, saw that. Got the filling tube all ready :)
[13:48] <daveake> Also http://www.ukhas.org.uk/guides:filling_foil_balloons
[13:49] <craag> I'll aim for 10g and probably go well over, so that'll work :) Cheers.
[13:49] <daveake> Yeah, it's hard work getting the gas out if you overshoot!
[13:50] <daveake> To measure the neck lift, I just tie the balloon down with some heavy object which I put on the scales
[13:50] <daveake> So measure the weight with and without balloon trying to lift it
[13:51] <craag> That sounds good. Just realised I have no stairs in my house (still getting used to it), so I'll use the scales method.
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[14:15] <kokey> I have no idea how I managed to leave my laptop at airport security
[14:16] <kokey> I think some woman put trays on top of my tray that had the laptop in
[14:16] <costyn> kokey: and you didn't feel your laptop bag was too light?
[14:16] <costyn> kokey: did you get it back?
[14:17] <kokey> well I put the laptop in my small suitcase, had to take it out for the security scan
[14:18] <kokey> and I my wallet, belt, bag with liquids and some coins to deal with
[14:18] <costyn> whois LazyLeopard
[14:18] <costyn> crap
[14:18] <kokey> main thing was I needed to put my belt back on to free my hands up to do the rest
[14:18] <kokey> yeah they have it, not destroyed, picking it up tonight
[14:19] <costyn> kokey: ok phew :)
[14:19] <kokey> yeah last backup is over 6 months old
[14:19] <kokey> not that I ever keep that much important stuff on it, all my stuff is in 'the cloud' somewhere
[14:19] <kokey> except the originals of photos, video footage and music I'm making
[14:19] <kokey> so that would be annoying to lose
[14:21] <costyn> yes
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[14:58] <LazyLeopard> costyn: M0LEP
[14:58] <LazyLeopard> ;)
[14:59] <costyn> LazyLeopard: :) I was talking to my mom on the weekend, we were digging around in her storage unit, found some old docs from my dad to Mike Lane, so then I thought of you, but totally couldn't remember your name.
[14:59] <costyn> LazyLeopard: but your whois only has your first name :)
[15:03] Action: costyn afk
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[15:08] <cuddykid> oh joy - a ukrainian TV company wants to do an interview
[15:11] <LazyLeopard> costyn: QRZ.com ;)
[15:11] <LazyLeopard> cuddykid: How's your Russian?
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[15:21] <cuddykid> LazyLeopard: non-existant :P
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[15:22] Nick change: fergusnoble_ -> fergusnoble
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[15:24] <LazyLeopard> costyn: Erm... Plug my callsign into http://www.qrz.com/
[15:25] <LazyLeopard> ...or not, depending on whether you have a login... (forgot about that bit...)
[15:29] <eroomde> mixing matrices and arrays in numpy is the road to certain madness
[15:29] <LazyLeopard> http://qrzcq.com/ doesn't seem to be quite so fussy but has less information available.
[15:29] <eroomde> i don;t know what i was thinking
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[15:31] <Randomskk> eroomde: yes definitely avoid that
[15:31] <Randomskk> mostly I just avoid matricies altogether, for the same of a slightly more awkward syntax
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[15:35] <eroomde> Randomskk: yes that's why i went for them in the first place
[15:35] <eroomde> to try and neated up np.dot(a, np.dot(b, np.dot(C.inverse()))))
[15:35] <eroomde> A*B*C.I is easier on the eyes
[15:36] <eroomde> alas
[15:36] <eroomde> i'm having a shit time with dimensions not matching up, even though they should it's all a bit annoying
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[15:37] <Randomskk> yes
[15:37] <Randomskk> for the sake of a* I meant to say
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[15:37] <Randomskk> which doesn't really make sense anyway but you know what I mean
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[15:54] <WillDuckworth> anyone bought anything from rocketsandthings.com? if so, any good?
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[15:56] <fsphil> I got a chute from them aaaaages ago
[15:56] <fsphil> ordered two, got one - quick email and all sorted
[15:56] <WillDuckworth> ta. Are you going to the conf fsphil?
[15:57] <fsphil> am indeed
[15:57] <WillDuckworth> when & where you arriving? I'll be gettting into padington again if you're around?
[15:58] <eroomde> rocketsandthings are alright. it's run by a guy called malcolm who is very helpful on the phone
[15:58] <WillDuckworth> cheers ed
[15:59] <fsphil> I'm arriving in London on friday this time
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[16:00] <Lunar_Lander__> hello
[16:01] <fsphil> I'm not a fan of early mornings :) so this time it's just a short walk to the tube
[16:02] <fsphil> doesn't look like the weather is going to be as nice this time
[16:02] <fsphil> there was a heat wave last time
[16:05] <KT5TK> I need help understanding Fill (%) in this table:
[16:05] <KT5TK> http://www.ukhas.org.uk/projects:microballoons:data?s[]=foil
[16:05] <KT5TK> How is percent defined? Is it the share of maximum volume that the balloon can hold
[16:05] <KT5TK> or is it free lift divided by mass of payload (+ balloon hull?)
[16:05] <KT5TK> or what?
[16:08] <craag> I believe it's max volume of the balloon.
[16:09] <craag> Which is roughly 0.1 cu m according to randomaerospace.
[16:09] <craag> (For 36" foil)
[16:10] <KT5TK> I recently tried a 92 cm balloon which was filled with ~75% "balloon gas" and a ~90 g payload, but I hardly got it to float.
[16:11] <craag> Yeah, I think 90g is too much.
[16:11] <craag> <60g is reccomended somwhere.
[16:12] <craag> (For a single balloon at least)
[16:12] <KT5TK> The 9V block was already that weight and I had to chop off all plastic. So what Batteries are you using to get to 60g?
[16:12] <craag> I've got a payload ready to fly that's using 1x AAA.
[16:13] <daveake> I've done a tracker in 8g, plus 3 AAAs at 24g. So that's ~35g including aerial, plus some padding
[16:13] <daveake> But I suggest a single AAA or AA and a step-up
[16:13] <cjdavies> Anybody know whether the ublox max 6 is capable of outputing magnetic declination in RMC? The only place it is mentioned in the spec it says "Magnetic variation value, not being output by receiver" which sounds like a poor Chinese translation
[16:13] <cjdavies> but I suspect it means that it doesn't output it
[16:14] <craag> My payload is 35g including battery, antenna, insulation and a good length of cord.
[16:14] <cjdavies> but that is literally the only place in the 200+ pages that it mentions it :/
[16:14] <Upu> In theory I'm 15g all in
[16:14] <Hiena> KT5TK: what was your baloon gas? Nitrogen?
[16:14] <Upu> single AAA
[16:16] <KT5TK> Thanks for your info. The gas was some bottle labelled "balloon gas" in a hardware store in Alaska.
[16:16] <KT5TK> Likely not pure He
[16:16] <cjdavies> balloon gas is usually helium/oxygen mix
[16:16] <cjdavies> eg 60/40
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[16:16] <cjdavies> or the other way around...
[16:16] <daveake> For some strange reason they don't do that with H2 ....
[16:17] <KT5TK> That may have been thr reason for the low lift.
[16:17] <Lunar_Lander__> daveake, XD
[16:17] <cjdavies> daveake: could make the party go off with a bang ;)
[16:17] <KT5TK> 60/40 would be really bad.
[16:18] <craag> That doesn't sound too bad as 0.1 cu m of He (full balloon) should give ~100 g of lift? So could be pure He.
[16:18] <cjdavies> I may have made up the 60/40 or 40/60 thing
[16:18] <russss> balloon gas is 96% He
[16:18] <cjdavies> I seem to remember using one of those ratios with a Conwin regulator
[16:19] <russss> compared to lab-grade helium which is 99.9%
[16:20] <cjdavies> russss: this is what I've used & where I got the 60/40 mix, but this is balloon decor not HAB --> http://www.conwinonline.com/shop/shop.asp?pid=36310
[16:20] <Randomskk> russss: some "balloon gas" is 60/40 or 70/30
[16:21] <Randomskk> or "party gas"
[16:21] <russss> ah weird
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[16:21] <Randomskk> and there's a whole range of "lab grade"
[16:21] <KT5TK> I'll probably need to look into the 3 x AAA solution and 2 mylars because the pecan board is already quite heavy for a pico. Thanks for info to all.
[16:21] <russss> I believe BOC's balloon gas is 96%, though?
[16:21] <Randomskk> CUSF uses CP grade which is 99.999% and there's a 99.99999% too
[16:21] <Randomskk> russss: I'm not actually sure. I think it is.
[16:21] <cjdavies> afaik 60/40 is relatively common in the decor business as it floats a latex balloon that hasn't been treated with HighFloat for a single night, which is often enough
[16:21] <Hiena> Well, for such a small balloon, i would go with hidrogen.
[16:21] <Randomskk> 99.999% is crucial for balloons ;)
[16:22] <jonsowman> :)
[16:22] <eroomde> Randomskk: also docs.scipy.org server is powered by hamsters on wheels
[16:22] <Randomskk> jonsowman: I was chatting with ben about this and we decided we actually help save the environment by using it
[16:22] <Randomskk> because we need less actual helium
[16:22] <Randomskk> to counteract the weight of the not-helium in the mix
[16:22] <Randomskk> eroomde: yes! so annoying. I have a local copy of the docs at home
[16:22] <russss> heh
[16:22] <Randomskk> that said ipython's help stuff is fine
[16:22] <jonsowman> lol yes
[16:22] <jonsowman> true
[16:23] <SpeedEvil> if the gas is the same density as air - the diluten- then it does not affect lift at all
[16:23] <SpeedEvil> just burst/float
[16:23] <kokey> what's the max payload for a single foil balloon pico?
[16:23] <Randomskk> SpeedEvil: sure, burst.
[16:24] <kokey> wondering about adding a camera
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[16:27] <craag> kokey: ~60g I believe.
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[16:31] <eroomde> oh god Randomskk python is so not cool for linalg expressions
[16:31] <eroomde> i am not having a happy time
[16:32] <eroomde> how can a state vector be 2x2
[16:32] <eroomde> this is bs
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[16:34] <Randomskk> lol
[16:34] <eroomde> this all Just Works in octave
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[17:08] <Lunar_Lander__> I just remember how the Apollo computer was programmed in Octal
[17:08] <Lunar_Lander__> that must have been difficult
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[17:32] <Lunar_Lander__> hello radim_OM2AMR
[17:32] <radim_OM2AMR> Hi, Lunar_Lander :-) How are you ?
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[17:37] <Lunar_Lander__> I'm good, thanks and you?
[17:37] <radim_OM2AMR> busy as usual :-)
[17:37] <radim_OM2AMR> what about your balloon progress
[17:37] <radim_OM2AMR> ?
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[17:56] <nigelvh> Morning all
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[18:03] <Lunar_Lander__> radim_OM2AMR, nothing new really
[18:03] <Lunar_Lander__> hi nigelvh
[18:04] <radim_OM2AMR> Lunar_Lander, did you solve gps parser ?
[18:05] <Lunar_Lander__> no, I didn't really work on that, have to revise mathematics
[18:05] <radim_OM2AMR> ohh, university.. I understand then
[18:06] <radim_OM2AMR> I revised mine 4 times :-)
[18:06] <Lunar_Lander__> yeah
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[18:07] <radim_OM2AMR> i write in simple past, but it was about 20 year ago :-)
[18:07] <Lunar_Lander__> yeah :)
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[18:08] <radim_OM2AMR> so good luck with math Lunar :-)
[18:08] <Lunar_Lander__> thanks :)
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[18:30] <G7PMO_Kev_work> Hi Guys, I have an issue with TinyGPS never thinking it has a valid sentence.... I take the raw sentance from the GPS and put it into the static_test routine for tinygps and it works, but in my real code, I run out of serial.avaliable, pass a \r and a \n, but still never get a true out of gps.encode, and never get data that is not the GPS_INVALID_etc defaults....
[18:31] <G7PMO_Kev_work> any ideas?
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[18:32] <cuddykid> do we have any people living in France here? parlez vous francais?
[18:43] <nigelvh> cuddykid, I know lots of swear words, do those count as speaking french?
[18:43] <cuddykid> lol :P
[18:44] <nigelvh> I suppose it's evening over there. How is it treating you?
[18:45] Nick change: signaleleven -> signal11_dinner
[18:47] <nigelvh> That well huh? Interesting.
[18:52] <SpeedEvil> nigelvh: can you make grammatical sentences out of only swearwords?
[18:53] <nigelvh> Can insults be thrown in along with the swear words?
[18:55] <nigelvh> Perhaps "Bastard fucking shit" Subject adjective verb?
[18:56] <fsphil> mind the language pleeeease :)
[18:57] <nigelvh> I'm trying to, but it's hard to form complete sentences with limited words, most of which are adjectives or verbs.
[18:59] <cuddykid> sorry nigelvh - didn't see the message - good thanks, hows the almighty US of A?!
[18:59] <nigelvh> Drunk and belligerant as usual
[19:00] <cuddykid> ha
[19:00] <cuddykid> where abouts are you based again nigelvh?
[19:00] <nigelvh> I'm in the Pacific Northwest, specifically Seattle, WA
[19:00] <cuddykid> ah nice - home of Starbucks :D
[19:01] <nigelvh> Things seem to be a little less drunk over here in general, but there's no escaping it totally.
[19:01] <nigelvh> Yes, I often remark that I'm a very poor Seattleite as I don't drink coffee.
[19:01] <cuddykid> lol
[19:02] <daveake> I like Seattle. Only been there the once.
[19:04] <nigelvh> It's a good city, as far as cities go.
[19:04] <nigelvh> I grew up in a much more rural area in eastern washington. Much prefer that to the city.
[19:05] <nigelvh> But, there aren't too many systems administrator jobs in small towns.
[19:05] <Lunar_Lander__> G7PMO_Kev, I don't think I have a solution for you but may I ask a question?
[19:05] <Lunar_Lander__> G7PMO_Kev_work, I mean
[19:07] <Lunar_Lander__> G7PMO_Kev_work, do you use Arduino 1.0 and what GPS do you use?
[19:07] <cuddykid> this could be fun.. trying to get clearance for a HAB launch in France when I don't speak French..
[19:07] <daveake> nigelvh This was for work ... spent 3-4 days at PPG and managed to get a couple of days free
[19:07] <nigelvh> Find you any Tillamook cheddar?
[19:08] <nigelvh> Tasty stuff.
[19:08] <nigelvh> I remember you asking about it.
[19:08] <nigelvh> Though I thought you said you'd be down in california or something.
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[19:13] <Lunar_Lander__> hi RocketBoy , how are you?
[19:14] <Lunar_Lander__> RocketBoy, any chance to find the balloons from India that the MONDO flyer used?
[19:15] <RocketBoy> pawan I think
[19:17] Nick change: signal11_dinner -> signaleleven
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[19:18] <Lunar_Lander__> yeah
[19:19] <Lunar_Lander__> do we know any parameters of them?
[19:19] <nigelvh> Made of latex. Holds some helium. Stretches some.
[19:20] <Lunar_Lander__> xD
[19:20] <nigelvh> I know. My level of detail borders on the pedantic, but I want to make sure you're well informed.
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[19:21] <daveake> nigelvh Tillamook - Yeah, that was for my next trip, which is an RV roadtrip around CA in 3 weeks
[19:22] <nigelvh> Fancy
[19:22] <nigelvh> Like I said, the smoked cheddar with some crackers. Or the extra sharp white cheddar. Both excellent choices.
[19:22] <daveake> Not been over since May last year
[19:22] <daveake> Well anything's better than the rubber I've had before
[19:23] <nigelvh> I particularly like the extra sharp white on a burger or a steak.
[19:32] <Lunar_Lander__> can you order these on ebay?
[19:32] <Lunar_Lander__> xD
[19:32] <nigelvh> Good question.
[19:33] <Lunar_Lander__> there was a documentary on TV about customs
[19:33] <Lunar_Lander__> like people who ordered meat from africa and stuff like that
[19:33] <Lunar_Lander__> they destroy it all
[19:33] <Lunar_Lander__> all that food stuff
[19:33] <nigelvh> Does not appear there's any tillamook cheese on ebay.
[19:34] <Lunar_Lander__> oh
[19:34] <Lunar_Lander__> I know there is a british shop in Cologne
[19:34] <Lunar_Lander__> I think they have a online shop too
[19:34] <Lunar_Lander__> will check them out
[19:35] <nigelvh> Actually, I did find a guy who sells tillamook cheese on ebay. Though only to the US.
[19:36] <nigelvh> I once went to their factory. Neat place. They also make ice cream there. Free samples. It was a delicious and informative trip.
[19:39] <Lunar_Lander__> ah
[19:39] <Lunar_Lander__> cool!
[19:39] <Lunar_Lander__> btw do you know if Jeremy Clarkson answers his Twitter?
[19:40] <nigelvh> Who is Jeremy Clarkson? (If it's not clear, no I don't know if he answers his twitter)
[19:40] <Lunar_Lander__> ah
[19:40] <Lunar_Lander__> do you happen to know Ben & Jerry's ice cream?
[19:40] <nigelvh> Yes
[19:40] <Lunar_Lander__> quite expensive here but tasty
[19:41] <nigelvh> It is
[19:42] <nigelvh> The fiance and I tend to prefer Tillamook to ben and jerry's as well. But we're lucky because they're local so we get to enjoy their stuff. Ben and Jerrys is in the high quality of the national/international brands.
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[19:47] <Lunar_Lander__> yeah
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[19:56] <G7PMO_Kev_work> Lunah_Lander - Sorry, back, I use Ardunio 1.01, and the Max 6 - my problem seems to be that Serial.avaliable cuts me out of the read loop, before I have all the data from the GPS...
[19:57] <Lunar_Lander__> ah
[19:57] <Lunar_Lander__> :(
[19:58] <Lunar_Lander__> sorry that I can't help
[19:58] <daveake> Don't use serial.available to drop out then
[19:58] <G7PMO_Kev_work> PUBX string is 107 chars, I only read 64
[19:58] <daveake> Basically you should wait till you've got a complete sentence, or have timed out waiting for one
[19:58] <MrScienceMan> G7PMO_Kev_work: read until you get /r /n
[19:58] <G7PMO_Kev_work> Any significance to me reading 64 then getting moved on I wonder?
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[19:59] <G7PMO_Kev_work> but if Serial.available() is not true, and I call Serial.read, will I not just sit there for ever?
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[20:00] <Lunar_Lander__> is /r /n like the end of the sentence?
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[20:00] <MrScienceMan> yeh
[20:00] <MrScienceMan> you gotta to check, if its both or just /n
[20:00] <DrLuke> does anybody happen to know the maximum length of a nmea sentence including the \r\n?
[20:01] <zyp> is there defined any?
[20:02] <MrScienceMan> no more than 80 characters i think
[20:02] <DrLuke> is that including the checksum and \r\n?
[20:02] <DanielRichman> G7PMO_Kev_work: can you paste your code?
[20:03] <MrScienceMan> DrLuke: internet says 82
[20:03] <DrLuke> Thanks!
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[20:04] <DanielRichman> G7PMO_Kev_Work_: the arduino serial buffer is 64 bytes long
[20:04] <DanielRichman> this might explain your issue
[20:04] <G7PMO_Kev_Work_> Dan - ode is here http://pastebin.com/dMBhh2SR
[20:05] <Lunar_Lander__> so it just terminates DanielRichman ?
[20:05] <DanielRichman> G7PMO_Kev_Work_: what's the baudrate?
[20:05] <daveake> delay(100) ???????
[20:05] <DanielRichman> daveake: yes indeed
[20:06] <MrScienceMan> whats with the delay
[20:06] <MrScienceMan> doesnt read() out put 1 char ?
[20:06] <DanielRichman> no. read returns -1 if the buffer is empty
[20:06] <G7PMO_Kev_Work_> I was trying to slow things down, in case the data was not present and hence serial.avaliable was kicking me out to early, it appears to be the opposite problem...
[20:06] <fsphil> doesn't .read() block?
[20:06] <G7PMO_Kev_Work_> Dan - 9600
[20:06] <DanielRichman> fsphil: no
[20:07] <fsphil> ah yes I remember now
[20:07] <DanielRichman> @9600 baud 100ms is 96 bytes
[20:07] <DanielRichman> so after reading the first byte
[20:07] <DanielRichman> it will wait for so long that the buffer will fill and then it will discard the rest
[20:07] <DanielRichman> here's the solution:
[20:07] <DanielRichman> while (!Serial.available()) { do nothing };
[20:07] <DanielRichman> then you Serial.read()
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[20:09] <DanielRichman> then you put that whole thing in another loop - i.e., you have to wait for Serial.available() to be true for each byte
[20:09] <MrScienceMan> i feel this code is unnessary complicated
[20:09] <DanielRichman> I'm itching to respond with "well that's because arduino suckx"
[20:09] <G7PMO_Kev_Work_> Dan :)
[20:10] <DanielRichman> MrScienceMan: I don't think it is though
[20:10] <DanielRichman> looks similar to what everyone writes
[20:10] <DanielRichman> (after making the fix to use .available() properly)
[20:10] <MrScienceMan> im suprised that read doesnt block
[20:11] <MrScienceMan> althought it makes more sense to be nonblocking
[20:11] <DanielRichman> hmm perhaps providing a read() that blocks and a read that doesn't block would be nicer
[20:11] <DanielRichman> http://pastie.org/4741653 here it is if you don't believe me
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[20:13] <Lunar_Lander__> DanielRichman, doesn't load
[20:13] <Lunar_Lander__> "Error 503 Service Unavailable"
[20:13] Nick change: mike -> Guest1049
[20:13] <Lunar_Lander__> ah there it is
[20:13] <MrScienceMan> ok
[20:14] <DanielRichman> though looking over the source it seems that Stream (base class of HarwareSerial) provides 'readBytes' which blocks (with a timeout)
[20:14] <Lunar_Lander__> DanielRichman, what is Apex Alpha II btw?
[20:14] <Lunar_Lander__> on github
[20:14] <MrScienceMan> cant we just do
[20:15] <MrScienceMan> while (!gps.encode(Serial.read())) { }
[20:15] <fsphil> beta code :)
[20:15] <G7PMO_Kev_Work_> DanielRichman - I'm confused, I'm trying to think about the edge conditions and how I dont get stuck, but I dont understand your comment "then you put that whole thing in another loop - i.e., you have to wait for Serial.available() to be true for each byte" how do I both be able to get out of that loop if another byte doesnt arrive, but not get out too soon if I dont have all my data?
[20:15] <DanielRichman> Lunar_Lander__: link?
[20:15] <MrScienceMan> and some timeout code in the loop
[20:15] <DanielRichman> MrScienceMan: Serial.read() would return -1 after a few bytes
[20:15] <Lunar_Lander__> https://github.com/ApexHAB/apex-alpha-ii
[20:15] <MrScienceMan> cant gps.ecnode handle the -1 ?
[20:16] <DanielRichman> Lunar_Lander__: that's not mine- ask priyesh
[20:16] <MrScienceMan> loops breaks only if valid sentance or timeout
[20:16] <MrScienceMan> timeout say, 2-3 seconds
[20:16] <DanielRichman> but it looks like it would hold code for Apex Alpha II - Apex Alpha was the name of a payload
[20:16] <DanielRichman> G7PMO_Kev_Work_: one sec
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[20:18] <DanielRichman> G7PMO_Kev_Work_: http://pastie.org/private/rtwfhqsruqpyxts36ri0xw try something like this to start with - I'll answer the other part of your question in a sec
[20:18] <MrScienceMan> i suggest
[20:18] <MrScienceMan> unsigned int timer_s = micros() + 3000;
[20:18] <MrScienceMan> while (!gps.encode(Serial.read())) { if(timer_s < micros()} break; }
[20:19] <DanielRichman> I was going to suggest what MrScienceMan said - but you would put the timeout check in the while (!Serial.available()) loop
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[20:20] <G7PMO_Kev_Work_> Thankyou, I can do that
[20:22] <priyesh> Lunar_Lander__: it's the 2nd gen version of Apex Alpha (the one which went over Poland, etc) - not much work has gone into it yet though
[20:22] <Lunar_Lander__> ah ok
[20:23] <Lunar_Lander__> but you write it will be an AVR with an ublox and the other radio there
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[20:27] <priyesh> most likely an AVR, ublox & rfm22b
[20:27] <priyesh> not sure if it's going ahead though
[20:28] <priyesh> hence the empty repository
[20:28] <Lunar_Lander__> yeah
[20:28] <Lunar_Lander__> you are like programming without the arduino IDE, right?
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[20:33] <priyesh> yes
[20:33] <priyesh> that's correct
[20:33] <priyesh> no bootloader
[20:34] <Lunar_Lander__> ah
[20:34] <Lunar_Lander__> so you program via ICSP and programmer
[20:37] <joph> ISP!
[20:37] <joph> atmel doesn't uses ICSP
[20:37] <joph> ICSP is from microchip ;)
[20:38] <Randomskk> what?
[20:38] <Randomskk> well
[20:38] <Randomskk> everyone says ICSP
[20:38] <Randomskk> it just stands for "in circuit serial programming"
[20:38] <nigelvh> Yeah, at this point it's just common terminology
[20:38] <Randomskk> in fact mostly I see people say ICSP in the context of AVRs and ISP for PICs.
[20:38] <nigelvh> Despite who originated it.
[20:38] <joph> i see
[20:39] <nigelvh> It means the not bootloader and not JTAG connection.
[20:39] <nigelvh> :P
[20:39] <nigelvh> Though that is interesting to know. I had not realized that before.
[20:40] <joph> interesting
[20:40] <nigelvh> BTW randomskk, 7012 continues to work well. Got some code written to auto search for the right settings for a lock on a given frequency, seems to be working well.
[20:40] <Randomskk> cool.
[20:41] <joph> wikipedia explains on the ICSP site details about the microchip system and the ISP site is neutral http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-circuit_serial_programming
[20:41] <nigelvh> At this point I've got the radio stuff pretty well set up, so I'm moving on to rewriting my APRS code because I'm not a fan of the trackuino code base.
[20:41] <Lunar_Lander__> yea
[20:41] <Lunar_Lander__> on the arduino boards they print "ICSP"!
[20:42] <Lunar_Lander__> without the exclaimation mark, sorry
[20:42] <Lunar_Lander__> what exactly is JTAG, I didn't get it completely from the wikipedia article
[20:42] <Randomskk> it's a serial bus for programming and debugging devices
[20:42] <nigelvh> My previous APRS code was blocking, and used the MX614 for tone generation, so now I'm moving to interrupt driven and tones via a timer.
[20:42] <Lunar_Lander__> ok
[20:43] <nigelvh> Like what the trackuino does, but my code.
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[20:45] <Lunar_Lander__> hi Dan-K2VOL
[20:47] <Dan-K2VOL> hi Kevin
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[20:49] <Lunar_Lander__> how are you today?
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[21:04] <Dan-K2VOL> doing well Lunar_Lander
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[21:05] <Dan-K2VOL> working this afternoon in one of the oldest cafes in NYC - operating a mere 90 years :-P
[21:05] <Dan-K2VOL> I would imagine that pales in comparison to places over there ;-)
[21:06] <Dan-K2VOL> edmoore are you around?
[21:06] <Lunar_Lander__> cool!
[21:07] <Lunar_Lander__> what are you doing there?
[21:09] <eroomde> Dan-K2VOL: yes
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[21:13] <Dan-K2VOL> I'm getting ready for my trip over there! getting my talk ready, getting some files ready
[21:13] <Dan-K2VOL> you?
[21:13] <Lunar_Lander__> cool
[21:14] <Lunar_Lander__> I am like looking at mathematics
[21:14] <G7PMO_Kev_Work_> Dan / Mr Science, it took a while to get there, and I'm still not sure how, but finally I have: $$JIMBOB,2,21:12:45,52.3226,-0.7063,135,6*23E9
[21:14] <nigelvh> Lunar_Lander__ sexy sexy mathematics
[21:14] <Lunar_Lander__> xD
[21:14] <DanielRichman> G7PMO_Kev_Work_: success
[21:14] <DanielRichman> being sure how might be something you want to sort out before flying
[21:14] <Lunar_Lander__> XD nigelvh at uni they have an advert for a EEG study
[21:14] <Lunar_Lander__> like they only look for men
[21:15] <eroomde> Dan-K2VOL: my prep is at the level where i realise that i have to write the talk at some point before saturday
[21:15] <Lunar_Lander__> and they say that it is about brain scans while looking at women
[21:15] <Lunar_Lander__> XD
[21:15] <eroomde> and tomorrow and wed are out
[21:15] <nigelvh> Yeah, those are the best studies.
[21:15] <eroomde> oh u were talking to lunar
[21:15] <eroomde> pats me right for being unable to context parse
[21:16] <nigelvh> I'll forgive you eroomde. Just this once though.
[21:16] <nigelvh> Also, only if you forgive me that I just now realized that your nick is your name backwards.
[21:16] <G7PMO_Kev_Work_> Thank you Dan / MrScience. The timing is very critical, if I get to Serial.read to late, the buffer is overflowed, if I get to early and read to quickly I get -1's inbetween chars that seems to kill tinygps....
[21:18] <nigelvh> G7PMO_Kev_Work_: I just do a while loop for 1500ms, and if there's data available read it. It's blocking for a second and a half, but it guarantees a complete set of data.
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[21:25] <Dan-K2VOL> lol
[21:27] <Dan-K2VOL> sorry I'm very busy too, my prep work for the talk has consisted of jotting notes into my phone while on the train! I just got a new batt in my laptop for the trip
[21:27] <Lunar_Lander__> yeah
[21:28] <eroomde> Dan-K2VOL: pm
[21:29] <Dan-K2VOL> but I've been steeped in small superpressure balloon research for 8 months, so I just really have to put some pretty slides together to play behind me while I talk
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[21:30] <daveake> Yeah, my talk is just a series of jokes on pretty slides :)
[21:30] <jcoxon> evening all
[21:30] <Dan-K2VOL> hehe
[21:30] <Lunar_Lander__> XD
[21:30] <daveake> evening jcoxon. Dunno if you noticed but you've put down just 20 mins for fsphil and my talk?
[21:31] <daveake> I know he'd prefer not to talk for long but we do need 30 I think :)
[21:31] <jcoxon> oh right
[21:31] <jcoxon> i remember sometihng about you guys asking for shorter
[21:32] <daveake> Darkside said he only needed 20
[21:32] <Dan-K2VOL> hey James
[21:32] <jcoxon> well we'll run over anyway
[21:32] <daveake> We reckon on 10 each for our talks, plus 10 for demo/questions
[21:32] <jcoxon> no worry
[21:32] <daveake> Sure
[21:32] <daveake> :)
[21:32] <jcoxon> hey Dan-K2VOL
[21:32] <daveake> fsphil and I are planning a launch for the Sunday
[21:32] <jcoxon> :)
[21:33] <daveake> SSDV from Phil's SWIFT tracker
[21:33] <jcoxon> oh cool
[21:34] <jcoxon> well people can try out their new skills they've learnt
[21:34] <daveake> Think of it as an extended demo :D
[21:34] <daveake> Exactly!
[21:35] <Dan-K2VOL> I'd love to see a launch over there, where are you guys doing it daveake?
[21:35] <daveake> CUSF hopefully
[21:35] <Lunar_Lander__> in a fish and chips shop
[21:35] <daveake> jonsowman has kindly offered to come up so we can launch
[21:36] <Dan-K2VOL> awesome
[21:36] <jcoxon> Dan-K2VOL, you could take the train from london
[21:36] <jcoxon> under an hour away
[21:36] <daveake> I'm driving over from Berksire, and probably picking up Darkside en route
[21:36] <daveake> fsphil will be going by train and jonsowman picking him up from Cambridge station
[21:37] <daveake> That's the current plan anyway
[21:37] <eroomde> i need to visit cam too
[21:37] <eroomde> to write a paper with someone, but sunday day i could come up for a launch
[21:37] <jonsowman> that'd be good eroomde
[21:38] <daveake> I'm planning just one launch but if others are flying I can get a larger cylinder
[21:39] <daveake> Ed I could pick you up en route too
[21:39] <eroomde> let's liase sat
[21:39] <daveake> okey dokey
[21:39] <eroomde> i might end up staying sunday eve
[21:40] <Dan-K2VOL> sounds great!
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[21:50] <G7PMO_Kev_Work_> I think I have a version that does a reasonable job of dealing with the edge conditions, and not being so reliant on timing now: http://pastebin.com/U6TtxvVE Comments welcome....
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[21:54] <KT5TK_QRL> I couldn't resist buying 3 of these RasPis since they're now finally available at Newark.
[21:54] <Lunar_Lander__> XD
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[21:54] <Lunar_Lander__> how much were they?
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[21:54] <fsphil> I got some nice enclosures for mine today
[21:54] <KT5TK_QRL> $35 at Newark. Likely also at Farnell
[21:55] <Lunar_Lander__> cool
[21:55] <Lunar_Lander__> well, good night :)
[21:55] <KT5TK_QRL> Now I wonder if I could abuse the video card for something more useful
[21:56] <joph> don't buy the raspberry
[21:56] <joph> it's to slow for serious stuff
[21:56] <Randomskk> so?
[21:56] <fsphil> don't use it for serious stuff :)
[21:56] <Randomskk> I mean, I don't have one and I'm not a huge proponent but "it's too slow for serious stuff" is hardly a reason not to buy one
[21:56] <KT5TK_QRL> Maybe build some onboard transmitter with it: http://bk.gnarf.org/creativity/vgasig/
[21:56] <Randomskk> there's all sorts of genuinely useful and/or interesting and/or entertaining things you could do with one
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[21:56] <Randomskk> (also it's not that slow!)
[21:57] <fsphil> it doesn't have VGA output so that won't work
[21:57] <KT5TK_QRL> It's faster than a 8051 though ;)
[21:57] <eroomde> correct!
[21:57] <eroomde> though an 8051 can still probably handling an external interrupt faster than a linuxed pi
[21:57] <KT5TK_QRL> Could I abuse the HDMI?
[21:57] <eroomde> whores for cosies
[21:57] <fsphil> hdmi is not very hacker friendly
[21:57] <joph> 256MB ram are too less for many things
[21:58] <joph> video acceleration? lol
[21:58] <joph> cpu? very old
[21:58] <eroomde> yes they is
[21:58] <joph> nearly every a10 board is better
[21:58] <fsphil> my avr has 2k :)
[21:58] <eroomde> cpu is pretty new by microcontroller standards!
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[21:58] <eroomde> but sure it's older than current arm sota
[22:00] <mattbrejza> joph: what did you want to abuse vga to do? you would probably be better with something external then using a non real time system for something realtime
[22:00] <eroomde> vga for transmitting dvb wirelessly
[22:00] <KT5TK_QRL> How fast are the GPIOs? Could they be used to generate some wideband I/Q signal?
[22:01] <KT5TK_QRL> Yeah DVB-T would be cool
[22:01] <eroomde> which is possible but pathological
[22:01] <mattbrejza> shame there is no 8MHz wide band for it to use
[22:01] <fsphil> it wouldn't have the cycles to do dvb
[22:02] <KT5TK_QRL> Should be possible on the 1.2GHz ham band and above
[22:02] <mattbrejza> dvb-t is probably a FPGA job
[22:02] <mattbrejza> could always make a pci(-e) card
[22:02] <eroomde> u can do it with a normal pc
[22:02] <eroomde> as long as it has vga
[22:03] <Randomskk> that's stupid
[22:03] <eroomde> it's outrageous in a very pleasing way
[22:04] <mattbrejza> cant see that working well unless you can get the grahpics hardware to do alot of the work
[22:04] <fsphil> it's been done :) sortof
[22:04] <mattbrejza> rather then bit-banging the vga dac
[22:04] <KT5TK_QRL> Thought about something like DATV-Express
[22:05] <eroomde> you do sort of bit bang the dac i suppose
[22:05] <mattbrejza> whats the max sample rate on a generic usb sound device?
[22:05] <KT5TK_QRL> http://www.w6ze.org/DATV/TAPR-DCC-2011-DATVexpress-G4GUO-W6HHC.ppt
[22:05] <mattbrejza> not that you can buy
[22:05] <fsphil> 48khz for the cheap ones
[22:05] <eroomde> in that you send it images such that it produces a waveform on a specific channel whose harmonic is dvb
[22:05] <mattbrejza> could you make a usb dac running at 4MHz?
[22:05] <mattbrejza> using generic usb sound card
[22:05] <mattbrejza> protocol
[22:05] <fsphil> yea you generate the image, and let the vga dac generate the signal from that
[22:06] <mattbrejza> ok that makes more sense
[22:06] <eroomde> http://bellard.org/dvbt/
[22:06] <fsphil> that's it
[22:06] <mattbrejza> i was imagining you writing the DAC buffer one sample at a time
[22:06] <fsphil> bellard is too smart :)
[22:07] <eroomde> he is
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[22:09] <KT5TK_QRL> In deed this would be a good use for the video card on a HAB
[22:09] <fsphil> well, it wouldn't be a very clean signal
[22:10] <fsphil> or powerful
[22:10] <eroomde> you'd need an amp fo sho
[22:11] <KT5TK_QRL> There are plenty of amplifier modules that'd help.
[22:11] <KT5TK_QRL> How linear do we need to be for DVB-T?
[22:11] <eroomde> nfi
[22:12] <eroomde> don't know what the modulation scheme is probably lotsQAM
[22:12] <eroomde> so quite linear
[22:12] <Randomskk> can be qam or psk
[22:12] <fsphil> DVB-S is PSK
[22:12] <mattbrejza> its QAM16-256 OFDM
[22:12] <Randomskk> it _can_ be qam16
[22:13] <Randomskk> psk is also an option
[22:13] <mattbrejza> oh yea
[22:13] <fsphil> DVB-S is quite popular because it's simpler
[22:13] <Randomskk> there are thousands and thousands of options for dvb-t
[22:13] <mattbrejza> either way OFDM
[22:13] <Randomskk> it's amazing anything works
[22:13] <Randomskk> yes ofdm
[22:13] <Randomskk> silly complex ofdm
[22:13] <Randomskk> with stupid numbers of pilot tones
[22:13] <mattbrejza> 1k subbands or sometihng
[22:13] <Randomskk> which rotate through all 2k carriers
[22:13] <Randomskk> in a pseudorandom fashion
[22:13] <Randomskk> so that you can lock on to the phase
[22:13] <Randomskk> so you don't need a phase reference
[22:13] <Randomskk> you just wait for a pilot on that carrier
[22:14] <Randomskk> the whole thing is very complicated
[22:14] <mattbrejza> dvb-t isnt needed on a balloon mind you, unless you want to recieve on a standard tv, which you cant due to radio regs
[22:14] <Randomskk> yea dvb-s would be a bit more sensible
[22:14] <eroomde> schmeetails
[22:14] <Randomskk> fits the balloon model better too
[22:14] <Randomskk> doing any of this usefully within legal power limits would be interesting
[22:15] <eroomde> psk ce n'est pas the way when power limited
[22:15] <mattbrejza> well there are no sub ghz 8mhz wide bands
[22:17] <eroomde> go gig or go home
[22:17] <mattbrejza> so 2.4GHz the first one?
[22:18] <KT5TK_QRL> Can you use any other license free bands above 1 GHz in the UK? Maybe around 2.4 GHz?
[22:18] <eroomde> there are a few
[22:18] <eroomde> 25mW on 5GHz forex
[22:18] <KT5TK_QRL> There you'd get some cheap ampliiers...
[22:18] <KT5TK_QRL> amplifiers
[22:18] <mattbrejza> it seems pointless in trying to keep to the dvb-t standard when you wont rx on a standard tv
[22:19] <mattbrejza> make up your own thing and use less BW
[22:19] <KT5TK_QRL> DVBT dongle with converter
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[22:22] <KT5TK_QRL> I think there are some simple 2.4 GHz to normal TV converters out there that are produced for surveillance cams
[22:22] <joph> mattbrejza, VGA?
[22:23] <fsphil> shame none of the budget sdr dongles work well above 2ghz
[22:23] <eroomde> mmm
[22:23] <KT5TK_QRL> I'm looking at 1.2 GHz here in the US. That should just work with the dongles.
[22:24] <mattbrejza> joph: nm moment passed
[22:25] <joph> good night
[22:26] <mattbrejza> ull need a serious amount of power though if its being spread over 6-8MHz
[22:26] <mattbrejza> also has anyone produced a video->vga->dvb-t example (rather then just a still image)?
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[22:30] <fsphil> nope
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[22:31] <mattbrejza> the vga route is probably the more effort route (or was this abandoned a while ago?)
[22:32] <eroomde> this was just for fun
[22:32] <eroomde> because bellard is very smart
[22:32] <eroomde> just to show it's possible
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[22:34] <mattbrejza> usb it is then
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[22:35] <SpeedEvil> tccboot
[22:35] <SpeedEvil> awesome
[22:36] <KT5TK_QRL> DATVexpress seems more reliable for DVB. They said they'll come out with the board soon.
[22:38] <KT5TK_QRL> http://g4guo.blogspot.co.uk/
[22:41] <mattbrejza> is that a ethernet/usb -> fpga -> dac -> vector mod -> PA thing?
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[22:49] <KT5TK_QRL> Yes, it's usb > fpga > RF
[22:51] <KT5TK_QRL> The I/Q signal is generated in software and directly submitted to the fpga
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[22:54] <mattbrejza> still probably best to use sometihng other than dvb-t from a power point of view
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[22:55] <KT5TK_QRL> It's designed for DVB-S but it also works for DVB-T. It's in general a digital transmitter that can transmit anything you generate in software.
[22:56] <mattbrejza> yea i realise that
[22:56] <KT5TK_QRL> The question is rater where you have the most receivers readily available.
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[22:58] <mattbrejza> well just use the e4k dongles to recieve dvb-s
[22:58] <mattbrejza> theyre the only things that would tune up that high anyway
[22:58] <KT5TK_QRL> Yes, that was my thought also.
[22:59] <mattbrejza> what sort of BW would you use with the dvb-s scheme?
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[23:00] <KT5TK_QRL> The smallest possible. The videos from a HAB won't need a fast frame rate.
[23:00] <mattbrejza> so no ham or otherwise standard existing?
[23:01] <KT5TK_QRL> I have to admit that I don't have much experience with DVB. No Ham standards really exist yet.
[23:03] <KT5TK_QRL> G4GUO said that it was possible to integrate a frame number in the transmission. This way data from multiple receivers could be combined on a server on the internet
[23:05] <mattbrejza> well if you make up your own protocol you can do what you want
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[23:06] <mattbrejza> although the way video compression works means the frames arnt really independant from each other, so the frame number thing will be harder
[23:06] <KT5TK_QRL> Yes, but the existing DVB-S standard has already room for that.
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[23:07] <mattbrejza> cant say ive looked into dvb-s standards
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[00:00] --- Tue Sep 18 2012