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[07:24] <griffonbot> Received email: "Re: [UKHAS] Launch Announcement - Saturday 8th September"
[07:25] <griffonbot> Received email: Anthony Stirk "Re: [UKHAS] Launch Announcement - Saturday 8th September"
[07:25] <griffonbot> Received email: David Akerman "Re: [UKHAS] Launch Announcement - Saturday 8th September"
[07:25] <daveake> What did I miss?
[07:25] <daveake> Upu?
[07:26] <UpuWork> wut ?
[07:26] <UpuWork> I just told him to go 434.650
[07:26] <daveake> You said 434.65 wondered why
[07:26] <daveake> ok
[07:26] <daveake> Because ...
[07:26] <UpuWork> because 075 is QRMtastic round here :)
[07:26] <daveake> ... .. better for you?
[07:26] <UpuWork> yep
[07:26] <daveake> haha
[07:26] <UpuWork> lol
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[07:35] <natrium42> Stirk Industries
[07:40] <UpuWork> 2000
[07:43] <costyn> morn
[07:44] <griffonbot> Received email: "Re: [UKHAS] Launch Announcement - Saturday 8th September"
[07:50] <craag> Is the person behind Random Aerospace on here?
[07:51] <daveake> not this minute, but yes. "RocketBoy"
[07:51] <craag> Ok, I'll keep an eye out, thanks.
[07:51] <daveake> He logs on at random times
[07:54] <UpuWork> I would emailhim
[07:54] <UpuWork> he doesn't always talk when on here
[07:55] <craag> I've tried emailing the sales address, but no reply.
[07:55] <UpuWork> give him some time
[07:55] <UpuWork> he's quite a busy chap
[07:55] <costyn> yesterday I tested the gps some more, but it hasn't been able to get a lock. is there a way to get it to print NMEA strings in ascii?
[07:55] <craag> Ok, will do, cheers.
[07:55] <UpuWork> how do you mean ?
[07:55] <UpuWork> does it get time ?
[07:55] <costyn> UpuWork: nope, no time either :(
[07:56] <costyn> UpuWork: so basically it responds to commands but nothing else.
[07:56] <UpuWork> is it one of my modules?
[07:56] <costyn> yes
[07:56] <UpuWork> are you inside ?
[07:56] <costyn> I left it outside for about 20 minutes, nothing
[07:57] <UpuWork> which one did you get ?
[07:57] <costyn> the assembled one with sarantel
[07:58] <costyn> btw, When ordering please specify in the notes if you want the 2.54mm pitch header installing. <-- s/installing/installed/ :)
[07:58] <costyn> on: http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_60&product_id=51
[07:58] <UpuWork> ok
[07:58] <UpuWork> I'll fix that
[07:58] <UpuWork> so how have you got it wired up ?
[07:59] <costyn> UpuWork: http://i.imgur.com/FOIjB.jpg
[07:59] <costyn> it's a little out of focus unfortunately
[07:59] <UpuWork> do you have a 3.3v FTDI board ?
[07:59] <costyn> yes
[08:00] <UpuWork> ok can you plug the module into that
[08:00] <UpuWork> lets take the Chinaduino out of the equation
[08:00] <costyn> I'm not at home atm, but I will do that tonight
[08:00] <UpuWork> ok
[08:00] <costyn> UpuWork: good idea :)
[08:02] <costyn> UpuWork: I haven't played with PRocessing before, but that would be the easiest probably to port to code to?
[08:03] <UpuWork> well one step at once
[08:03] <UpuWork> lets check the modules working first
[08:03] <costyn> ok, so if I connnect it to serial, what should I see? will it print ascii nmea strings ?
[08:03] <UpuWork> yeah just connect 3.3v to 3.3v , GND to GND , RX on the module to TX on the board and vice versa
[08:04] <UpuWork> open putty or whatever @ 9600
[08:04] <UpuWork> go download ublox ucenter
[08:04] <costyn> it's a windows thing right?
[08:04] <UpuWork> yeah ?
[08:04] <costyn> ok, I'll run it in virtualbox
[08:04] Action: costyn = mac user
[08:05] <costyn> UpuWork: thanks for the help
[08:05] <UpuWork> nps
[08:06] <Darkside> it works fine in wine
[08:06] <costyn> UpuWork: would you mind if I edited the ublox6 wikipage afterwards, put in the troubleshooting steps I did?
[08:07] <Darkside> you jus need to put a symlink in the ~/.wine/dosdevices folder, pointing to your gps devices tty
[08:07] <UpuWork> yep absolutely please do
[08:07] <costyn> Darkside: I didn't even know there was Wine for Mac
[08:07] <Darkside> lol
[08:07] <Darkside> don't you use macports?
[08:07] <costyn> I use homebrew
[08:07] <Darkside> should be in there too
[08:07] <costyn> ok
[08:08] <costyn> i have a windows 7 vm, think I'll just use that :)
[08:11] <costyn> heh... sectioning in docuwiki is the exact opposite of mediawiki, confusing :)
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[09:41] <costyn> staat ook geen route voor in de route-tabel
[09:41] <costyn> def route is via de ASA
[09:41] <costyn> ff kijekn
[09:44] <costyn> der
[09:44] <costyn> sorry wrong window
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[10:05] <kokey> stuur jou roetes deur die cisco vuurmuur
[10:06] <fsphil> I agree
[10:06] <daveake> couldn't have said it better myself
[10:06] <costyn> kokey: u funny guy :)
[10:07] <costyn> kokey: but I added the routes on the loadbalancer and then it started working :)
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[10:09] <kokey> ah that helps
[10:09] <costyn> they apparently mysteriously disappeared during a software update
[10:09] <kokey> routing directly back or using source based routing?
[10:09] <costyn> kokey: source
[10:10] <costyn> kokey: is a vpn client range
[10:10] <costyn> but maybe I shouldn't be saying too much about customer network internals on the interwebs :)
[10:11] <fsphil> aww ;)
[10:11] <fsphil> I mean, yes of course
[10:11] <kokey> yeah now I know your internal network is a 10.* network
[10:11] <kokey> I have your sekretz
[10:11] <costyn> hehehe
[10:11] <costyn> seekrits
[10:13] <MrScienceMan> stealing all your holiday fotos
[10:14] <daveake> There's no place like
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[10:19] <fsphil> except ::1
[10:20] <daveake> I bow to your more complete nerdiness :p
[10:21] <UpuWork> +1 for ipv6
[10:22] <kokey> I wonder how many people using martian IPs are having conflicts with the curiosity rover
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[10:23] <MrScienceMan> +1 for using short format
[10:23] <daveake> None. Curiosity killed the cat cable
[10:23] <fsphil> with a laser
[10:24] <daveake> UpuWork Your pAVA board is happily getting a lock inside this ball payload, not far from the camera
[10:24] <daveake> I can kill the GPS if I put it close enough, but it's as far away as I can get
[10:25] <Hix> speaking of payloads, where are good sources of foam?
[10:26] <daveake> 24 degrees and sunny on Saturday. Filling in the sun is going to be a novelty
[10:26] <daveake> ebay probably
[10:26] <daveake> Have you decided if you want the low density white stuff that goes everywhere when you cut it, or the high density stuff?
[10:27] <daveake> Having now tried both, I prefer the latter
[10:27] <Hix> not too sure, white foam, hotwire cutting is the future#
[10:27] <daveake> Hotwire works for either
[10:27] <Hix> the high density stuff blue or pink?
[10:27] <daveake> Yes, either
[10:28] <Hix> ok
[10:28] <fsphil> meh, clouds and rain for sunday here
[10:28] <daveake> When are you hoping* to launch?
[10:28] <Hix> might have some CAD based payload design fun this afternoon
[10:28] <daveake> *Yes I know that you usually hope in vain
[10:28] <fsphil> hoping to launch next weekend for the last 3 months
[10:29] <daveake> blimey. there's posh
[10:29] <daveake> :D
[10:29] <fsphil> I suspect things will go quicker once the air show has finished
[10:29] <daveake> yeah
[10:29] <Hix> not really - it beats a duct that is boring the hell out of me
[10:30] <fsphil> the polystyrene I've been using, would anyone know what kind it is -- I'm running out of the stuff. It's sheets made for under floor insulation, it's dark grey and is a bit heavier than normal packaging polystyrene
[10:30] <daveake> For Sunday my payload is a white poly ball (painted pink of course) with a Canon camera and a tracker borrowed from Upu
[10:31] <daveake> That tracker has a boost converter and it'll be running from the AAs in the camera
[10:31] <Penfold> daveake: tenner says you can't land it on my lawn :D :D
[10:31] <daveake> Where's your lawn?
[10:31] <Penfold> Peterborough North
[10:31] <UpuWork> Sunshine ?
[10:31] <UpuWork> f?ck off :)
[10:31] <daveake> So it's a pretty light payload considering it has a camera
[10:31] <daveake> lol
[10:31] <daveake> No chance Penfold
[10:32] <Penfold> http://craftfoam.co.uk/ is interestig for foam
[10:32] <daveake> Prediction: http://habhub.org/predict/#!/uuid=0b63df5588b8e9062394f7de31a71fb435541048
[10:33] <daveake> I've had shorter drives to the landing spot, but that's not bad
[10:33] <Penfold> does 2 'x 2' x 6" blocks of the sensibly cuttable-with-a-knife stuff
[10:33] <fsphil> hot wire is amazing though
[10:33] <daveake> Mostly I use 10mm thick sheet
[10:33] <Penfold> if I can get my SDR up by then, I might actually be able to track that
[10:34] <daveake> It blunts blades pdq
[10:34] <fsphil> yay, http://habhub.org/predict/#!/uuid=d2741d1eb853e680e7d2ebb5feecf32bd7b1e921
[10:34] <daveake> no trees
[10:34] <fsphil> this is true
[10:34] <fsphil> and I do now know some people with boats :)
[10:34] <fsphil> although that's a bit far
[10:34] <daveake> :)
[10:35] <daveake> Launch *from* a boat then
[10:35] <fsphil> oooh
[10:35] <fsphil> international waters
[10:35] <daveake> yup
[10:36] <daveake> Someone should do that sometime
[10:36] <UpuWork> 1000 HAB points if you can land it on Ailsa Crag
[10:36] <fsphil> I could launch easily from lough neagh- but that's inland
[10:37] <UpuWork> Craig even
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[10:39] <costyn> UpuWork: that's freaking tiny :)
[10:44] <UpuWork> My wife climbed to the top of that on her hen do
[10:48] <Randomskk> any OS X users around?
[10:48] <costyn> Randomskk: yo
[10:48] <Randomskk> costyn: what version are you running?
[10:48] <costyn> Lion
[10:49] <Randomskk> could you check if a beta dl-fldigi runs for you? just need to open the app and check it opens and picks up sound basically
[10:49] <Randomskk> also is anyone not running lion? :P
[10:49] <costyn> sure
[10:49] <costyn> Randomskk: you want Mountain Lion (newer?) or Snow Leopard (older?)
[10:49] <Randomskk> both
[10:49] <Randomskk> I'm running lion :P
[10:49] <costyn> ah :)
[10:50] <costyn> Randomskk: have link to the beta?
[10:50] <costyn> is it 3.21.50?
[10:50] <Randomskk> http://randomskk.net/u/dl-fldigi.zip
[10:52] <Randomskk> ignore a "there is a new version availabe" popup and ignore the HTTP 404 error in the bottom
[10:52] <Randomskk> they're both expected and related to the fact it's a non released beta
[10:52] <costyn> ok
[10:52] <costyn> Randomskk: well it works
[10:52] <Penfold> can try on ML but don't have audio to feed it
[10:52] <Randomskk> Penfold: that's fine
[10:52] <costyn> if i tap the mic i get yellow in the waterfall
[10:52] <Randomskk> mostly I just need to know it opens
[10:52] <Randomskk> it opening means most of the ridiculous building and linking has worked :P
[10:53] <costyn> Randomskk: cool
[10:53] <Penfold> predictably: "?dl-fldigi? is from an unidentified developer. Are you sure you want to open it?"
[10:53] <Penfold> well, yes, you stupid machine :D
[10:54] <Randomskk> heh yes my biggest concern was mountain lion's new app security thing
[10:54] <Randomskk> well that and all the library version conflicts
[10:55] <Penfold> runs, picks up noise from Mic
[10:55] <Randomskk> yay! perfect!
[10:55] <Randomskk> thank you very much
[10:55] <Penfold> fullmarks for the audio settings, BTW
[10:55] <Penfold> as I'll be using Soundflower to route an SDR into it
[10:55] <Randomskk> okay. hopefully that should work
[10:55] <Penfold> will let you know at the weekend, hopefully
[10:55] <Randomskk> great
[10:56] <Randomskk> Penfold: costyn: now delete that version, because I wouldn't try and use it for anything just yet :P
[10:56] <Randomskk> probably have a full release out before this weekend's flights
[10:56] <Penfold> deleted :D
[10:56] <costyn> Randomskk: done:)
[10:56] <Randomskk> sweet, thanks both of you
[10:57] <fsphil> I've an old PPC mac if you want to test on that :)
[10:58] <Randomskk> haha not a chance of that working I'm afraid
[10:58] <Randomskk> not a universal binary
[10:59] <Randomskk> well I mean you could see and it'd not-work
[10:59] <Randomskk> I'm pretty sure
[10:59] <fsphil> it mostly runs linux anyway, but I kept the osx partition
[10:59] <Randomskk> hehe
[11:01] <Laurenceb> anyone use open office?
[11:01] <Laurenceb> what causes odt to have an "accept change" thing when i try to edit a document?
[11:02] <daveake> Change tracking switched on?
[11:05] <Laurenceb> aha
[11:05] <Laurenceb> edit -> changes
[11:05] <Laurenceb> thanks
[11:18] <costyn> Laurenceb: save early, save often
[11:18] <costyn> my collegue just now: 13:17 <@Ome^ijS> fucking schijtopenoffice..
[11:18] <costyn> schijt = shit
[11:18] <Laurenceb> lol
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[11:53] <cuddykid> https://sites.google.com/site/balloonnewswebstore/home
[11:58] <SamSilver> ooh Quality guaruntee and Returns policy :
[12:00] <daveake> "It burst; have it back"
[12:02] <costyn> SamSilver: so are the pawan balloons any good?
[12:02] <costyn> beentrying to contact hwoyee to get a quote from them
[12:02] <daveake> No idea.
[12:03] <SamSilver> costyn: don't know I have only owned hwoyee
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[12:46] <Gadget-Work> Out of interest whats the typical per lauch cost for HAB ?
[12:47] <daveake> I reckon on £200
[12:47] <daveake> Assuming you get the payload back
[12:47] <number10> excluding chase car fuel
[12:47] <gonzo_> you can prob do a pico for £50 ?
[12:47] <daveake> In my case yes :D
[12:47] <number10> fish and chips
[12:48] <daveake> Depends who's paying for the fish & chips
[12:48] <gonzo_> teddy bears
[12:48] <number10> well every other launch will cost you
[12:48] <daveake> Latex balloon typically £50-£80. Helium £80. Petrol on top.
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[12:51] <fsphil> and ferry and car trip to yorkshire
[12:51] <daveake> Or Eurotunnel
[12:51] <fsphil> +1
[12:54] <costyn> fsphil: yea if you want to launch right now, come to Holland. :)
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[12:55] <costyn> fsphil: land of no NOTAMs (for the sizes of HABs UKHAS people typically launch)
[12:56] <number10> would be good to launch from holland when the predictions show it landing in UK
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[12:56] <daveake> homing hab
[12:56] <fsphil> hah
[12:57] <fsphil> I might do that
[12:57] <daveake> Doubt they'll let you take H2 on the chunnel train tho
[12:57] <daveake> They don't like LPG
[12:57] <daveake> Ferry would be ok
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[13:00] <costyn> fsphil: I could organize He for you. H2 not yet
[13:01] <gonzo_> they used to get arsey about bottled lpg in caravans, but LPG converted cars were ok
[13:01] <number10>
[13:01] <daveake>
[13:01] <costyn>
[13:01] <Randomskk> combo breaker.
[13:01] <costyn> ghehehe
[13:01] <costyn> telepathic irc
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[13:02] <number10> lllllllllllllllllllkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkjjjj
[13:02] <fsphil> there where talking about a telepathic dalek network on dr who on saturday, and all I could think of was Dalnet
[13:02] <daveake> number10 Your cat needs feeding
[13:02] <number10> oops sorry - leaning on k/b
[13:02] <fsphil> if the daleks used Dalnet, they'd be easy to beat. Just wait for a netsplit
[13:03] Action: costyn is shamefully behind on watching dr who episodes
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[13:24] <SamSilver> video showing jet stream action on burst balloon fragments, burst is at 29 sec mark http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n62zy5untg&feature=player_embedded
[13:26] <Laurenceb> interesting
[13:27] <Laurenceb> looks like really heavy wind shear
[13:28] <SamSilver> my thoughts 2
[13:28] <Hix> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n62zy5untg&feature=player_detailpage#t=29s
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[14:03] <nick_> Can anyone tell me how to tell a Cortex M3's NVIC which function I want it to run for a given interrupt?
[14:04] <Laurenceb> you have a vector table
[14:04] <Laurenceb> usually its all setup in a linker script
[14:05] <Laurenceb> https://github.com/Laurenceb/STM32-Logger/blob/master/lib/lanchon-stm32-names.inc
[14:05] <nick_> Oof, I've got to go
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[14:29] <Hix> What is the Max payload that people have sent up? I nkow the guidlines state <4Kg but wondering what is realistically feasible?
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[14:31] <UpuWork> most people keep it below 1.5kg
[14:32] <costyn> Hix: http://ukhas.org.uk/general:flight_data
[14:32] <Hix> is there any history of more? Within the density criteria?
[14:32] <costyn> heaviest I see is 1.75
[14:32] <UpuWork> I think some of the earlier launches may be been heavier but I'd very actively discourage it
[14:33] <UpuWork> why the question ?
[14:33] <Hix> wondering what sort of imaging system could be sent up.....
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[14:34] <costyn> want to send up a Canon 1D ? :P
[14:35] <Hix> D4 - if I can blag it
[14:35] <Hix> ha and you were joking about 1D
[14:35] <costyn> um yes
[14:35] <costyn> :)
[14:35] <Hix> But with no glass it's ~1400g
[14:35] <costyn> 1.3KG geez
[14:36] <Hix> just think of it as build for near space
[14:36] <costyn> what lens were you thinking of?
[14:36] <Hix> *built
[14:36] <Hix> tbh a 50mm 1.8 is razor sharp and light
[14:36] <costyn> yes, that would be great choice, but the fov isn't that great
[14:36] <UpuWork> I believe there is one place left at the conference if anyone is interested
[14:36] <Hix> it's an FX body so 50mm is pretty much that of human eye
[14:37] <Hix> oops noty fov
[14:37] <costyn> Hix: full frame right?
[14:37] <Hix> *not
[14:37] <Hix> yeah full frame
[14:37] <costyn> Hix: but you wouldn't be the first one to send up a DSLR, there have been ones that weren't recovered or didnt work
[14:38] <costyn> I think Tim tried to send up an EOS 350
[14:38] <UpuWork> Canon were going to send one up with Rob but they got nervous about it
[14:38] <UpuWork> as they are stupid heavy
[14:38] <Hix> not trying to be the first. Just want to get some really good images. Saw Tims writeups
[14:38] <Hix> That's the reason for the quert
[14:38] <Hix> query
[14:39] <costyn> http://www.timzaman.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/DSCF0100-150x150.jpg
[14:39] <Hix> good typing this arvo
[14:39] <nick_> Laurenceb: In the NVIC chapter of the manual it has a vector offset for each interrupt
[14:39] <nick_> Is it a case of putting the function pointer in there?
[14:39] <Hix> afk
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[14:53] <Laurenceb> nick_: maybe
[14:53] <Laurenceb> but thats not the normal way to handle it
[14:53] <Laurenceb> usually you have a linker script setup with isr names
[14:53] <Laurenceb> so you create a function with that name
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[14:59] <Laurenceb> nick_: see the lib folder in my github project
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[15:35] <MrScienceMan> can anyone tell me how I can create custom blocks in eagle?
[15:36] <UpuWork> paerts ?
[15:36] <UpuWork> parts even
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[15:37] <MrScienceMan> yeah, IC block
[15:37] <MrScienceMan> one that is not in the library
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[15:37] <UpuWork> ok whats the package ?
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[15:38] <MrScienceMan> lets say ublox gps module
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[15:38] <UpuWork> well just get my library they are in there
[15:39] <UpuWork> NEO and MAX foot prints
[15:39] <MrScienceMan> ahh
[15:39] <MrScienceMan> awesome, i was wondering if you've made schematics for the breakout board
[15:41] <MrScienceMan> can you point me to how I can create libraries?
[15:42] <DrLuke> there's also some videos on youtube if you prefer that
[15:42] <Hix> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irE4oHB5fSc&feature=player_detailpage#t=393s
[15:43] <Hix> walks through creating parts and libraries
[15:43] <UpuWork> its not too hard, especially if the package is based on a standard foot print
[15:44] <UpuWork> if it is you just copy it from ref-packages.lbr
[15:45] <MrScienceMan> thanks ill poke around :)
[15:47] <Hix> there's a mahoosive collection on element 14 http://goo.gl/tJCAQ
[15:47] <Hix> of libraries
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[15:53] <DrLuke> I've created my own USB footprint so far
[15:53] <DrLuke> that was pretty cool
[15:54] <DrLuke> and the datasheet of it was well done, and had a schematic drawing, which was a bit daunting at first
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[16:45] <SRNET> darkside
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[17:04] <SRNET> Is Darkside about ?
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[17:24] <daveake> On his way back from Uni
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[18:06] <Darkside> srnet: hey
[18:07] <Darkside> i just got home
[18:08] <srnet> What time is it with you, local time in the UK is 19:07
[18:08] <Darkside> i'm in the UK at the moment
[18:09] <Darkside> :-
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[18:09] <srnet> IC
[18:10] <srnet> Anyway, I see what your doing with the RTTY, what M\S frequncies did you end up with ?
[18:11] <Darkside> i had a shift of about 425Hz
[18:11] <Darkside> the base frequency drifts up and down a bit
[18:11] <Darkside> that small crystal on the RFM board is not very good
[18:12] <srnet> Drifts with what, temperature ?
[18:12] <Darkside> yes
[18:13] <Darkside> i've seen them drift by a few KHz
[18:13] <Darkside> i'm betting yours will too, as the cubesat temp cycles as it goes in/out of sunlight
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[18:14] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[18:14] <srnet> Well we shall see, the drift I found between freezer and warm oven was OK. but even if it were a problem, all you need to do is 'calibrate' it.
[18:15] <Darkside> srnet: it all depends on what 'OK' is
[18:15] <Darkside> if a few KHz of drift is OK, then thats fine
[18:15] <Darkside> but one of the most annoying things i noticed was drift as the transmitter warms up
[18:15] <Darkside> so when you turn on the carrier for your morse transmission, it drifts in a little
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[18:15] <Darkside> so yeah, i'd seriously suggest usinglow baud rate RTTY as the downlink
[18:15] <srnet> By 'calibrate' it I mean read the RFM22 temperature (or PCB temperature) and use the capadjust and a table of values to compensate.
[18:16] <Lunar_Lander> hello NigeyS !
[18:16] <NigeyS> lo
[18:16] <Darkside> the other useful thing about using RTTY is that most demodulators have AFC
[18:16] <Darkside> so they will track temp drift and doppler
[18:16] <Darkside> most software CW decoders are just crap
[18:16] <Darkside> especially with doppler drifting signals
[18:17] <Darkside> we have to deal with drifting RTTY signals all the time in high altitude ballooning, fldigi's RTTY demodulator handles it very well
[18:17] <srnet> I did test the RRC capability of the RFM22, it seems to sope well enough with a frequncy shift (dopler is my problem) of up to 10kHz
[18:18] <Darkside> RRC?
[18:18] <Darkside> you mean for the uplink?
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[18:19] <srnet> I mean AFC, typo. Doppler is an issue, this RFM22 will be travelling at around 27000kmph
[18:19] <Darkside> yeah
[18:19] <Darkside> though packets are often short
[18:19] <Lunar_Lander> NigeyS, how are you?
[18:20] <NigeyS> pretty good kev, just hugely busy, and you ?
[18:20] <Darkside> srnet: yeah, the AFC works well, i've for mine pulling in from +-5KHz well
[18:20] <Lunar_Lander> NigeyS, about the same here
[18:20] <Darkside> i can make it pull in more reliably by upping the preamble length
[18:20] <Lunar_Lander> NigeyS, I have to head for dinner but I'd like to show you my github :) https://github.com/WinzenFlyer/Oernen-II-Stratosphere-Science-Platform
[18:21] <Darkside> but yeah, as long as the packets are relatively short, doppler should be OK
[18:21] <NigeyS> tnx, ill take a look
[18:21] <Lunar_Lander> thank you too
[18:21] <Lunar_Lander> brb
[18:21] <Darkside> srnet: my cutdown stuff uses preset commands, i didn't want to deal with parsing data out of the packets on the flight computer, that way leads possible breakage
[18:21] <Darkside> but with enough testing it can be done
[18:21] <bertrik> 32% of light speed?
[18:22] <bertrik> ah, miscalculated
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[18:22] <srnet> Strange, I thought that too, longer preamble is better. I did some testing at the RSSI limit of the reciever, and a $20 preamble was actually worse than a $08
[18:23] <Darkside> interesting
[18:23] <Darkside> whats your path loss?
[18:24] <Darkside> ahhh nvm
[18:24] <Darkside> ok, 50W on ground, about -83dBm at receiver
[18:24] <Darkside> i wonder what the noise floor will be :-)
[18:24] <Darkside> i see -105dBm on my balloon flights
[18:25] <srnet> Yes, I thought so to. Path loss, too many sums for me. There is a web conferance this evening with the guys who did the calcs I will ask.
[18:25] <Darkside> yeah im doing the calcs now
[18:25] <Darkside> with it directly above you, 50W into a smallish yagi should be decodable
[18:26] <Darkside> please make sure you have some kind of passkey thing :-)
[18:26] <srnet> I reacall that the estimated RF horizion was around 2000km ?
[18:26] <Darkside> yeah, did the cals with a 3000km path
[18:26] <Darkside> you still have 10dB SNR
[18:26] <Darkside> this is assuming 3dBi at the sat, and 9dBi on ground
[18:26] <Darkside> which is about a 7 element yagi
[18:27] <srnet> The projects primary objective was to see if a 50mm cube satellite was possible, in that form factor there are not many frequency agile devices out there.
[18:27] <costyn> Darkside: looks like I'm gonna have to use Wine after all. FTDI doesn't want to attach to my VM (get some Virtualbox error)
[18:28] <Darkside> srnet: yeah, you are certainly limited
[18:28] <Darkside> srnet: the 500 baud GMSK mode may be useful
[18:28] <Darkside> it means you can uplink using a recorded packet, into a normal amateur radio
[18:28] <Darkside> 5KHz shift is too wide
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[18:29] <Darkside> of course you can just use an amplifier on the output of another RFM22B, but its nice to have 50W right off the bat
[18:30] <srnet> 5khz is fine for the FM audio, thats being used so that a simple handheld tranciever will be able to hear it on the ground.
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[18:30] <Darkside> wait, FM audio?
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[18:30] <Darkside> the RFM22B doesn't do FM audio, it does FSK
[18:31] <srnet> Yes, the basic beacon will send out its callsign in FM audio morse
[18:31] <Darkside> you can kind of generate a square wave tone if you send 01010101 and change the baud rate up and down
[18:31] <Darkside> why not just CW?
[18:31] <Darkside> you'll get more punch for your power with that
[18:31] <Darkside> with FM you're just spreading what little power you have over more bandwidth
[18:31] <Darkside> receiving FM audio from a 250mW cubesat is hard enough with a 7 element yagi
[18:32] <Darkside> 100mW is goign to be 3db more pain
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[18:32] <Darkside> sideband receivers are easy enough to come by
[18:32] <Darkside> hell, lots of people have the fubcube dongles now
[18:32] <Darkside> this kind of thing is what they were designed for
[18:33] <srnet> I tried that, no need, put the RFM22 in FSK direct mod mode send a square wave tone to the direct mod pin.
[18:33] <Darkside> that is a nasty way of generating FM audio
[18:33] <fsphil> bit of a waste that
[18:33] <Darkside> and again, you're just making it harder for people to receive it
[18:34] <Darkside> that will *not* be receivable with a normal handheld and a yagi
[18:34] <Darkside> well
[18:34] <Darkside> not without a big yagi
[18:34] <srnet> ITUPSAT1 transmits FM audio at 100mw, easily heard on the ground with a handheld and rubber duck.
[18:34] <Darkside> 'easily'
[18:34] <Darkside> its not that easy
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[18:35] <Darkside> raw CW is a far FAR more efficient way of getting your power across
[18:35] <Darkside> and anyone with a SSB receive will hear it easily
[18:35] <fsphil> arrisat had 500mw on 2m and I didn't have much luck
[18:36] <Darkside> SO-50 has 250mW on 70cm down and its a right PITA to receive
[18:36] <srnet> Yep. I have picked the Morse beacon from ITUPSAT1 up at 2000km using a FT60 and Arrow antenna.
[18:36] <Darkside> even with a yagi
[18:36] <Darkside> still, morse over FM is very wasteful
[18:37] <Darkside> and trying to send your downlink telemetry over that is going to be really sorrying
[18:37] <Darkside> worrying*
[18:37] <Darkside> if you have important telemetry, send it over either raw CW, or FSK
[18:37] <fsphil> it's silly the range we get out of 10mw fsk :)
[18:37] <Darkside> well yeah
[18:37] <fsphil> the limits are actually geography rather than range
[18:37] <Darkside> 850km range
[18:37] <srnet> Of course, but if you want the signal to be as accessible as possible, what is the alterantive ?
[18:38] <Darkside> and thats only because of one of sight
[18:38] <Darkside> srnet: there's accessibility vs functionality
[18:38] <Darkside> line of sight*
[18:38] <Darkside> but yeah, for downlink telemetry, 50 baud RTTY woudl work *really* well
[18:38] <fsphil> the fcd is pretty widespread now
[18:38] <Darkside> the current distance record for telemetry reception is 850km, with a 10mW transmitter
[18:39] <fsphil> faster than cw too
[18:39] <Darkside> and the only readon the record isn't longer is because of the radio horizon
[18:39] <fsphil> and designed to be decoded by machine
[18:39] <fsphil> cw is too fuzzy for data
[18:39] <Darkside> yeah
[18:39] <Darkside> alwo CW is wasteful for data
[18:39] <Darkside> well, if you use morse code anyway
[18:39] <Darkside> if you don't you're just using OOK anyway
[18:40] <Darkside> with RTTY you can send full 8-bit bytes through
[18:40] <Darkside> and its ridiculously simple to implement
[18:40] <fsphil> any room for a camera? :)
[18:41] <bertrik> I thought the channel capacity formula showed that wideband has more capacity for positive S/N ratios
[18:42] <Darkside> for a fixed TX power, a narrower bandwidth signal will get you more SNR though
[18:43] <srnet> Camera, could be. But not this launch, its important to establish first, if the RFM22 will work at this sort of range.
[18:43] <Darkside> well, we know 50 baud RTTY will work at 850km
[18:44] <fsphil> with small antennas
[18:44] <Darkside> and i've had people uplink to my payloads with a 500 baud GMSK packet, from 400km away
[18:44] <fsphil> 680km out of my colinear
[18:44] <Darkside> they used 10W, and there was still plenty of SNR margin
[18:45] <Darkside> really the only reason for the range is the narrow bandwidth of RTTY
[18:45] <srnet> sounds promising, Did the RTTY put much of a load on the precessor, I presume you were shifting the frequncy by a register write every bit.
[18:45] <fsphil> having AFC means not needing to rely on funky doppler corrections in the radio
[18:46] <Darkside> srnet: at 50 baud, noy much
[18:46] <Darkside> you can either transmit a string with a blocking function, or do it interrupt based
[18:46] <Darkside> you don't need to send much SPI data to twiddle the register
[18:46] <Darkside> its only 3 bytes i think
[18:47] <fsphil> what processor are you flying?
[18:48] <srnet> I will tell you the processor if you dont make fun.
[18:48] <Darkside> processors for cubesats are usually weird things
[18:48] <fsphil> I'll only make fun if it's a 6502 :)
[18:48] <fsphil> I'll think about making fun but refrain if it's a PIC
[18:48] <Hiena> 6502 is a serious thing.
[18:49] <Darkside> fsphil: hey, some of the cubesat platform controllers use pic32s
[18:49] <fsphil> make fun in a good way :)
[18:49] <srnet> Gasp, 6502, I remeber those, I was in charge of making BBC micros .......
[18:49] <Darkside> either that or a msp430, which are REALLY good for power operation
[18:49] <Darkside> low power operation*
[18:49] <Darkside> srnet: so what are you using :-)
[18:49] <fsphil> Hiena: making fun in a good way. my first assembly program was on a 6510 :)
[18:49] <srnet> PICAXE 40X2, this is an educational project.
[18:49] <Darkside> oh lawd
[18:49] Action: fsphil refrains
[18:50] <Darkside> just because it's an education project doesn't mean you need to shoot yourself in the foot
[18:50] <Darkside> hehe
[18:50] <Darkside> wipe the picaxe firmware and program the pic directly :P
[18:51] <Darkside> the pic18 series are fine
[18:51] <daveake> I suppose it educates people to make better technology choices
[18:51] <fsphil> we had bbc micros at school. those where cool
[18:51] <srnet> Ha, Ha, but it works. It sends Morse, it sends packets, it recives packets, what more do you want ?
[18:51] <Darkside> not BASIC
[18:51] <daveake> A half decent language for a start
[18:52] <daveake> And one you can use elsewhere
[18:52] <srnet> It aint as bad as it seems, it works fine at 8Mhz, but I could run it at 64Mhz if I choose.
[18:52] Action: fsphil refrains again :)
[18:52] <Darkside> srnet: i used an atmega2560 in a cubesat payload :-)
[18:52] <Darkside> and programmed it in arduino
[18:52] <Darkside> well, C
[18:52] <Darkside> thats educational!
[18:52] <daveake> Ah, the "throw hardware at an interpreter" approach
[18:53] <Darkside> srnet: aaaaanyway, no matter what you use
[18:53] <Lunar_Lander> Darkside, there is a arduino programmed chip in orbit around the earth?
[18:53] <Darkside> get it downlinking 50 baud RTTY L-)
[18:53] <Darkside> Lunar_Lander: a few actually
[18:53] <Lunar_Lander> cool!
[18:53] <Darkside> a few more will be launched in feb next year, including the one i coded for
[18:53] <Hiena> Duh, the processors just nails, and if you have a right hammers and knows how to drive a nail, doesn't matter what will you use for a chair.
[18:54] <Darkside> so does the pixace actually use an interpreter on the chip?
[18:55] <Darkside> or does it do somethign smart like compile th eBASIC to bytecode, because thats fine
[18:55] <Lunar_Lander> Darkside, COOL
[18:55] <fsphil> you'd be surprised how small a basic interpreter can be
[18:55] <Darkside> an interpreted language on a chip being used in a radiation environment worries me a bit. one more area of the chip where a SEU can cause major problems
[18:56] <srnet> PICAXE is a PIC that is loaded with firmware that runs a tokenised basic thingy.
[18:56] <Darkside> hell, the atmega2560 came out of radiation testing with locked fuse bits, and bits of corrupted flash
[18:56] <Darkside> if you corrupt the flash that contains the basic interpreter, you're screwed
[18:56] <Darkside> nothing runs
[18:57] <Darkside> however you're equalliy screwed if your program code in flash is corrupted
[18:57] <fsphil> that applies to compiled code too though
[18:57] <Darkside> yes
[18:57] <fsphil> but it would have a smaller footprint
[18:58] <Darkside> but adding a bootloader on is just asking for more trouble
[18:58] <fsphil> yea
[18:58] <Darkside> however, the bootloader could be smart and do things like checksum the program code
[18:58] <Darkside> but you can still have aa corruption in the bootloader which kills everything anyway
[18:58] <Darkside> i went thorugh all this last year
[18:58] <srnet> Sure, corruption of code applies to any device that has code, and you cant reload it remotely.
[18:59] <Darkside> yup
[18:59] <Gadget-Mac> Evening all
[18:59] <Darkside> srnet: aaaaaaaaaaaaaanyway
[18:59] <Darkside> no matter what you're coding in, make it do RTTY!
[18:59] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[18:59] <fsphil> more sats should do that
[18:59] <Darkside> 50 baud RTTY downlink from a cubesat soudns awesome
[18:59] <fsphil> AFSK never made sense
[19:00] <Darkside> and make it so we can receive packets and upload them somwehre
[19:00] <Darkside> then we can help with ground station RX :-)
[19:00] <fsphil> a distributed listener system
[19:00] <srnet> I sure will use RTTY. The guy fronting this in the states is Bob Twiggs, he seems well experience in the small satellite field.....
[19:00] <Darkside> i wonder where that's been done before :-)
[19:00] <Darkside> srnet: i can send you the register settings i'm using for the 500 baud GMSK stuff
[19:01] <srnet> I am off to get some supper, wont be back for 45 mins or so.
[19:01] <srnet> Yes please for the settings
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[19:18] <Lunar_Lander> hello radim_OM2AMR
[19:20] <radim_OM2AMR> hi Lunar_Lander
[19:20] <Lunar_Lander> how are you and the payload?
[19:21] <radim_OM2AMR> I hope I'm prepared :-) and what about you ?
[19:24] <Lunar_Lander> I am good, thanks
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[19:33] <radim_OM2AMR> When will PYSY fly ?
[19:35] <mclane> PYSY will fly on 15.9. or 22.9. depending on weather
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[19:35] <Lunar_Lander> hi mclane
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[19:35] <mclane> hi lunar
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[19:36] <SRNET_> Thanks for the settings Darkside, I can see what you are doing, I just did not think of doing it that way.
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[19:37] <radim_OM2AMR> mclane, nice, maybe I will try to receive it
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[19:38] <mclane> I will publish the final date in the ukhas mailing list early enough
[19:39] <SRNET_> Anyway, Whats the max LOS anyone has got with the RFM22 data telemetry, 100mw and untuned 1/4 wave antennas ?
[19:40] <Upu> we got 760km from a NTX2 @ 10mW with a 1/4 wave
[19:41] <Upu> RFM22B not sure to be honest they are regularly received ~ 500km@ 10mW
[19:41] <Upu> we can't use 100mW in the air in the UK
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[19:47] <SRNET_> Upu, did you mean telemetry in general, or the RFM22 in particular. I realise its a bit deaf, claimed to be -121dbm.
[19:47] <Darkside> SRNET_: we've only recently started using RFMs
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[19:47] <Darkside> the 10mW limit is due to the UK's ISM band laws
[19:48] <Darkside> and because you can't use amateur radio transmitters airborne, like in the US and other places
[19:48] <radim_OM2AMR> 10 mW is enough to jam my car remote :-)
[19:49] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[19:49] <SRNET_> Yes , of course, 10mW limit in the UK. This satellite is covered, we will be using the full 100mw
[19:50] <Upu> are you in the UK ?
[19:51] <SRNET_> I am, in Cardiff. Licensing and call sign allocation is being done in the US
[19:52] <Upu> what are you transmitting from ?
[19:53] <Darkside> Upu: mini cubesat
[19:53] <SRNET_> A satellite at an altitude of circa 750km.
[19:53] <Darkside> 50x50x50mm
[19:53] <Upu> with an RFM22B ?
[19:54] <SRNET_> Yep
[19:54] <Upu> they aren't even ground rated never mind space rated
[19:56] <SRNET_> Lots of bits in small micoro satellites are not space rated.
[19:56] <Upu> As a module they can be very hit and miss
[19:57] <Upu> had one that didn't seem to be putting out the power it should
[19:57] <Darkside> mine doesn't
[19:57] <Darkside> well
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[19:58] <Darkside> it puts out 2dB less than its meant to
[19:58] <SRNET_> Sure, the antenna tuning is C**P and needs to be SOT, one reason for not getting the TX power you might think.
[19:58] <Upu> The one that we used on the pava had some wierd issue
[19:58] <Darkside> SRNET_: no, i mean straight out of the RFM module
[19:58] <Upu> in answer to your question range shouldn't be an issue
[19:59] <Darkside> meant to be 14dBm, i get 12dBm or less
[19:59] <Darkside> the antenna isn't a problem - a 1/4 wave ground plane is fine
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[19:59] <Darkside> i mean, 1/4 wave element with a ground plane
[19:59] <Darkside> the one on my current payload has a SWR of 1.2:1, which is pretty good
[20:00] <SRNET_> The other reason for the lack of power is that its available in versions tuned for the different bands, a 868Mhz one works like C**P on 70m.
[20:00] <Darkside> well yes
[20:00] <Darkside> that because they have a bandpass filter on the output
[20:00] <Darkside> or someting approximating one
[20:00] <Darkside> the modules we have are for the 70cm ism band, and still don't put out the rated power
[20:01] <SRNET_> Darkside, yes, 2-3db less than advertised is what the RF guys in the US measured too.
[20:01] <Darkside> mm
[20:01] <Darkside> still, they are very cheap
[20:01] <Darkside> and far more flexible than the other modules we normally use
[20:01] <Darkside> and you get uplink capability
[20:01] <Darkside> brb
[20:02] <SRNET_> Stupid cheap, did you try tuning the antenna ?
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[20:05] <Darkside> SRNET_: how do you mean
[20:06] <Darkside> the antenna on my payload is tuned for my operating frequency
[20:06] <Darkside> it presents a 1.2:1 SWR, which is 'not bad'
[20:07] <SRNET_> The RFM22 antenna matching is a bit hit or miss, its not as if they use precision components in the matching network.
[20:07] <Darkside> ahh
[20:07] <Darkside> hmm
[20:07] <Darkside> i do wonder what the output impedance is
[20:07] <Darkside> i can probably measure that
[20:08] <SRNET_> Can you actually measure SWR at 100mw, your average gear just cant go that low a power.
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[20:08] <Darkside> SRNET_: VNA
[20:09] <Darkside> http://i.imgur.com/a85wt.jpg
[20:09] <Laurenceb_> DO WANT
[20:09] <Darkside> yeah, 40MHz to 65GHz
[20:09] <SRNET_> me too.
[20:09] <Darkside> kind of overkill
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[20:10] <Darkside> also the calibration was a bit weird on that one, i didn't have many data points to work with
[20:10] <Darkside> but was enought o get it to 1.2:1, which is fine
[20:11] <Darkside> apparently the black cables that run from the VNA to my antenna cost a few thousand pounds each
[20:12] <SRNET_> I went for the crude approach, set up another RFM22 to scan the RSSI, went over the local park, and cut bits off the piano wire antenna and plot the signal
[20:12] <Laurenceb_> heh
[20:12] <Laurenceb_> i did something similar
[20:12] <Darkside> well you can tune the SWR with another higher powered radio
[20:12] <Darkside> and a SWR meter
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[20:15] <SRNET_> There was quite a differance between individual devices, but the best 1/4 wave always ended up being longer than the simple sums
[20:16] <Darkside> well
[20:16] <Darkside> from theory, a 1/4 wave radiator above a continuous groudn plane should be 0.235 times the wavelength
[20:16] <Darkside> this is for a thin radiator
[20:17] <Laurenceb_> itd be interesting to try some of the ceramic chip stuff
[20:17] <Darkside> your testing method tests the radiation pattern and the radiation efficiency at th esame time
[20:17] <Darkside> measureing the SWR properly lets you get the radiation efficiency up
[20:18] <Darkside> as you're cutting away at the antenna, you'r antenna will still radiate, but you're going to be modifying the radiation pattern wich each cut
[20:18] <Darkside> with*
[20:18] <SRNET_> Sorry, I meant the best length per se, the best '1/4 wave' does not make sense.
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[20:18] <Darkside> how do you mean
[20:19] <Darkside> longer than a 1/4 wave will be a bad match to 50 ohms
[20:19] <Darkside> it may radiate, and you may be able to to cut it sugh that it radiates better at a certain angle, but it's not going to be an efficient antenna
[20:20] <Darkside> SRNET_: try measureing the SWR using a SWR bridge
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[20:20] <G7PMO_Kev_Hotel> Evening Mike
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[20:22] <SRNET_> Well it might, assuming of course that the RFM22 has a 'real' 50R output as the data sheet maintains. Given low spec output matching components, some variation to be expected.
[20:23] <Darkside> yeah
[20:23] <Darkside> still, measureing it with another radio further away isn't a good way to do it
[20:23] <Darkside> get the antenna as best you can using a higher powered radio and a SWR meter
[20:23] <Laurenceb_> https://www.olimex.com/dev/a13-olinuxino.html
[20:23] <Laurenceb_> drool
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[20:24] <Darkside> Laurenceb_: it has wifi?
[20:24] <Darkside> no eothernet
[20:24] <Darkside> oh, optional wifi module
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[20:25] <Darkside> i'd prefer something a little smaller and with ethernet, but that looks pretty good
[20:26] <Darkside> it has mounting holes, better than the rpi already :P
[20:26] <Laurenceb_> they have a A10 board coming for 60 euros
[20:26] <Laurenceb_> with hdi and sata
[20:26] <Gadget-Mac> rpi is getting mounting holes ;)
[20:26] <Laurenceb_> *fdmi
[20:26] Action: Laurenceb_ passes round a drill
[20:27] <Darkside> mm i don't want the video output
[20:27] <Darkside> i just want a low power embedded linux computer
[20:27] <Darkside> at the moment the beaglebone is the best thing for me
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[20:29] <Laurenceb_> lol the A10 datasheet
[20:29] <Laurenceb_> "Supports NADN memory"
[20:31] <Gadget-Mac> So, why can't we use 869.40-869.65 MHz @ 500mW in the UK ?
[20:31] <Laurenceb_> yes we can
[20:31] <gonzo_> limited to 10% duty cycle at 500mw
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[20:32] <costyn> Upu: finally got u-center working under my Win7 vm
[20:32] <costyn> Upu: been standing outside for a bit and some blue bars appear once in a while, but then nothing
[20:32] <Gadget-Mac> Ok, thought I was going mad :)
[20:32] <Upu> singal
[20:32] <Upu> signal
[20:32] <costyn> Upu: tried the 2nd module that I have from you a well. seems same behaviour. I'm not sure but I think I need to be more patient :)
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[20:34] <Upu> if its getting some bars it is getting a signal
[20:34] <costyn> funny, sitting inside and getting blue bars too :)
[20:34] <costyn> ok
[20:35] <Lunar_Lander> yeah Upu here I have it outside and it gets lock and I take it back inside and still has lock
[20:35] <Lunar_Lander> but it hadn't got a lock before htat
[20:35] <Lunar_Lander> *that
[20:36] <Upu> once they get lock its hard to get them to break it
[20:36] <Laurenceb_> https://www.miniand.com/products/Hackberry%20A10%20Developer%20Board
[20:36] <Laurenceb_> thats the best one ive seen
[20:36] <Lunar_Lander> cool
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[20:37] <costyn> Upu: ok i'll try & wait longer next time
[20:37] <fsphil> I've an 869mhz module here that I've been meaning to fly for a while now
[20:38] <Gadget-Mac> fsphil: interesting
[20:39] <fsphil> few people have receivers for it
[20:39] <fsphil> or antennas
[20:39] <fsphil> the 10% limit is annoying but it would work for packet
[20:40] <fsphil> sadly the drift on the 869 module is quite huge, so it doesn't work so good for fsk
[20:41] <Gadget-Mac> ok
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[20:44] <Gadget-Mac> As you said, few people able to listen, so makes it of more limited use
[20:44] <fsphil> good to experiment however :)
[20:45] <BrainDamage> use a 10W transmitter on the GSM band, then track the payload by the reports of cellphone malfunctions
[20:46] Nick change: DRAMAWAY -> DRAMA
[20:46] <number10> fsphil: you could launch it the day after conf - daveake and I have scanners that will recieve
[20:46] <fsphil> I'm considering that number10
[20:46] <Gadget-Mac> Sure, I'm all for experimenting :)
[20:47] <fsphil> basically a little payload that doesn't need tracking
[20:47] <fsphil> launch, track and bbq :)
[20:48] <number10> I hope to come along - is the day after drive back from lakes 5.5h
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[23:35] Nick change: DRAMAWAY -> DRAMA
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[00:00] --- Thu Sep 6 2012