highaltitude.log.20120824

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[01:48] <DrLuke> https://www.atomicproto.de/drluke/ yay, my website is now live :3
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[02:28] <KT5TK> I like the PLACEHOLDER. Are those your tracking antennas in the background?
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[05:53] <griffonbot> Received email: tshado "[UKHAS] Re: HAB Amp"
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[06:59] <jcoxon> morning RocketBoy
[06:59] <RocketBoy> hey jcoxon
[07:02] <jcoxon> good launches yesterday
[07:03] <RocketBoy> yep - prety much to plan
[07:03] <RocketBoy> east launches and recovery
[07:03] <UpuWork> morning RocketBoy
[07:03] <UpuWork> great signal yesterday
[07:04] <RocketBoy> landing spot as expected
[07:04] <UpuWork> that first one was like it was in the same room as me
[07:04] <RocketBoy> really - just an NTX2
[07:04] <RocketBoy> its all in the antenna
[07:05] <RocketBoy> gotta tune the SWR
[07:05] <UpuWork> yeah very strong, very stable even at burst
[07:07] <RocketBoy> i'll stick to that design than
[07:07] <RocketBoy> anyone got a suggestion for getting dry air (or any gas) I need to 'wash out' part of a payload before launch
[07:08] <jcoxon> just use He?
[07:08] <eroomde> hydrogen?
[07:08] <RocketBoy> I was thinking of a fish tank air pump and silica jell
[07:09] <eroomde> condensation issues?
[07:09] <RocketBoy> yep
[07:09] <RocketBoy> have to use a sealed box for this flight
[07:10] <eroomde> i can only think that yep, either keep the payload sealed up at 1bar with some other dry gas, or just allows a lot of airflow in and out of the payload box to keep things equalised
[07:10] <eroomde> ah ok
[07:11] <eroomde> well yep, i did a sealed box once with some helium wash-out, seemed to work fine. but then we didn;t get condensation much at all. i could never quite pin down exectly what and what wouldn't lead to it
[07:11] <RocketBoy> yeah - this payload has a potential water landing
[07:11] <eroomde> nova 13 got condensation, but wasn't material different to novas 7-12, which were broadly similar
[07:11] <eroomde> and they didn;t get condensation
[07:11] <eroomde> materially*
[07:12] <RocketBoy> yeah - it can just depend on the day
[07:13] <RocketBoy> some days you will be fine - no condensation
[07:13] <RocketBoy> other days you get it
[07:13] <eroomde> but yep, so a dry wash of He of CO2 (assuming hydrogen dodgy and He running out) could do the trick
[07:13] <RocketBoy> with the same setup
[07:14] <eroomde> had a little pressure releief bar set to about 1.1 bar
[07:14] <eroomde> filled the box up until that vented for a few secs
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[07:15] <eroomde> and then as the payload ascend and the outside pressure dropped, the pressure relief valve kept letting pressure out such that the internal pressure was kept about 1 bar above external
[07:15] <eroomde> and then on the way down the external pressure just came back up to match the internal pressure (about 1 bar in and out)
[07:16] <eroomde> i built it to test a storm hab where i really didn;t want the outside getting in, or get condensation
[07:17] <RocketBoy> yeah = inside getting out OK, outside getting in BAD
[07:17] <eroomde> precisely
[07:18] <RocketBoy> I tried a small IP68 rated box and that (amazingly) seems to stand the 1 bar differential pressure
[07:19] <eroomde> that's exactly what I used :)
[07:19] <RocketBoy> :)
[07:19] <eroomde> even at low temps
[07:19] <RocketBoy> :) :)
[07:20] <eroomde> it was a box with a little polystyrene shield above it
[07:20] <eroomde> as a hail shield
[07:20] <RocketBoy> sounds like fun
[07:21] <RocketBoy> I wanted to fly a payload into a storn
[07:21] <eroomde> but launching into storms is really very difgficult, it turns out
[07:21] <eroomde> in as far as a storm itself in only about 500m across
[07:21] <fsphil> you need a good series of super cells
[07:21] <eroomde> indeed
[07:21] <fsphil> which are rare here
[07:21] <eroomde> however where i work now seems to get a v large number of storms coming up the valley
[07:22] <eroomde> they seems to come overhead quite often
[07:22] <eroomde> so that has put the idea back into my mind
[07:22] <eroomde> even though life is rockets rather than balloons now
[07:22] <RocketBoy> use a rocket
[07:22] <eroomde> :)
[07:23] <RocketBoy> actually I belived lightning will track down a rocket vapour trail
[07:23] <RocketBoy> :)
[07:24] <eroomde> yes i was wondering actually about triggering lighting with a hab
[07:24] <fsphil> you don't need a hail shield, if it's strong enough to damage a payload box then the balloon will be in trouble
[07:24] <RocketBoy> just make sure you have a wireless launch controlleer
[07:24] <eroomde> if once in the storm cell you could drop 500m of v thin copper wire
[07:25] <RocketBoy> mmm - tether a ballon by some tire
[07:25] <eroomde> and then maybe induce a spark across it with a coil, and the rf part of the spark should induce a nice big potential difference between one end of the wire and the other, the wire being a very low resistance path between the two
[07:25] <RocketBoy> wire\
[07:25] <eroomde> if you see ZUES1 on the tracker coming towards you, run
[07:26] <fsphil> mine's called THOR
[07:26] <eroomde> i think our parachute test vehicle could make a good case for being called thor
[07:26] <fsphil> I'll be waiting a long time to test that
[07:27] <fsphil> unless I travel to the US
[07:27] <eroomde> if the chute and backup systems failed
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[07:28] <fsphil> recreate the first scene of the movie? :)
[07:28] <eroomde> have you seen armadaillo aerospace's stig a flight 2 vehicle landing?
[07:28] <eroomde> Stiga A
[07:29] <RocketBoy> incoming ballistic rocket = scary
[07:29] <fsphil> the one that created a sonic boom on the way down? :)
[07:29] <eroomde> yes :)
[07:29] <eroomde> 2 in fact
[07:29] <fsphil> the ground just ate that one up
[07:29] <eroomde> they do seem to be having a lot of problems designing a recovery system
[07:30] <RocketBoy> I'v seen just the fins poking out the ground
[07:30] <eroomde> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aw11NFz14sA&feature=player_embedded
[07:30] <eroomde> watch the last 30s
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[07:30] <RocketBoy> earth seems to have rather a high rho
[07:30] <eroomde> with sound
[07:32] <UpuWork> ping jgrahamc
[07:33] <RocketBoy> winds the nearest the pad landing competition though
[07:34] <eroomde> :)
[07:34] <eroomde> not bad for something that got to 100km
[07:34] <eroomde> well, not quite
[07:34] <eroomde> but actually i guess it's to be expected, it is actively guided so will have been going straight up
[07:34] <RocketBoy> mush be guided
[07:34] <eroomde> and no parachute ever properly deployed to induce some drift on the way down
[07:34] <RocketBoy> yeah
[07:35] <eroomde> the video is rather fun
[07:35] <RocketBoy> was the video downlinked - r just SD survival
[07:36] <eroomde> it is under a ballute for some reason, and at some point the ballute line just goes 'ping'
[07:36] <eroomde> and you see it and the harness dissappear away from the rocket
[07:36] <eroomde> which then starts to tumble
[07:37] <eroomde> but it's a rather ominous 'ping!'
[07:37] <eroomde> just just sd survival i think
[07:37] <eroomde> the photos were amusing, the engine bulkhead decelerated down into the rocket tube
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[07:37] <eroomde> and compressed about 5m if internal plumbing and fuel tanks into about 50cm
[07:38] <RocketBoy> crush zone :)
[07:38] <Penfold> byebye no claims bonus :D
[07:39] <eroomde> http://media.armadilloaerospace.com/2012-01-28/IMG_4306_dr.JPG
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[07:39] <eroomde> that's looking down into the tube, the sheet at the bottom should be the bulkhead up right by where the camera lens is
[07:39] <x-f> speaking about rockets - NASA is launching a radiation belt storm probe satellites in about 27 minutes (NASA TV)
[07:39] <eroomde> poor sattelite!
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[07:41] <Penfold> RocketBoy: I see XABEN1 was reasonably cooperative about its landing spot, too...
[07:42] <RocketBoy> seen this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ope88eYNuOE - watch the fins as it hits 1000fps
[07:43] <eroomde> yes i saw that - unbelievable
[07:43] <RocketBoy> hiya Penfold - yes it was middle of a harvested field
[07:43] <Penfold> not too bad, then :D
[07:44] <eroomde> we sent that vid around ourselves when designing martlet's fins
[07:44] <eroomde> it's quite a demonstration of what you're up against
[07:44] <eroomde> and the upper stage would have got to about mach 2.x which also scares me
[07:45] <RocketBoy> penfold: well i had to park 20 yards away - so it wasn't all easy :)
[07:45] <Penfold> just hits a resonance, I asume?
[07:45] <Penfold> RocketBoy: awwww :D
[07:46] Action: Penfold starts hunting eBay for 70m SSB receivers. *eyes LazyLeopard* This is your fault.
[07:46] <RocketBoy> I'm not convinced I know what is going on with those fins
[07:46] <eroomde> also this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_FCQ550770&feature=related
[07:46] <Penfold> wonder if work'll let me run an antenna cable out the window?. :D
[07:49] <RocketBoy> that airframe gives way first methinks
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[07:56] Action: RocketBoy gets a hankering for lauching some rockets again
[07:56] <Penfold> *laughs*
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[07:57] <eroomde> i've been rockety for about the last yr now
[07:57] <eroomde> not launched a single balloon infact!
[07:57] <RocketBoy> what rig are you looking for Penfold
[07:58] <Darkside> eroomde: we'll have to fix that
[07:58] <Penfold> RocketBoy: nothing terribly expensive. Just searching about at present
[07:58] <RocketBoy> I only got into ballooning to launch a rockoon
[07:58] <eroomde> Darkside: i kind of prefer rockets
[07:58] <eroomde> yes same!
[07:58] <Darkside> RocketBoy: well, come to australia and we'll do one at woomera :P
[07:58] <RocketBoy> sort of got diverted
[07:58] <Penfold> there's an AOR8000 on ebay at present, which is sadly going to finish before I can afford it this month, I think :D
[07:59] <eroomde> that's still a vague plan, except that when i sat down and worked out the most realistic way that i was going to build something that could break 100km in the next 4/5 years, it looked like ground launch might still be the way
[07:59] <eroomde> when you factor in launch and range logisticzs
[07:59] <Darkside> mm
[08:00] <Darkside> i think realistically the only place you'd be able to launch a rockoon is at woomera
[08:00] <eroomde> or the sea
[08:00] <Darkside> that is, if you want to recover it
[08:00] <eroomde> woomera is unfort owned by BAe or something and they would charge a bomb unless you can get a freebie in
[08:00] <Darkside> eroomde: we have contacts
[08:00] <Darkside> but we're only playing that card for something thats worth it
[08:01] <eroomde> a rockoon :)
[08:01] <Darkside> we know the range manager out there
[08:01] <Darkside> he offered to make us a high altitude glider airframe
[08:02] <eroomde> nice of him to LOwer his HANd down to you to help you out
[08:02] <Darkside> i wouldn't play this card for them
[08:03] <Darkside> not unless they raised their game
[08:03] <RocketBoy> they do make me smile
[08:04] <RocketBoy> Penfold: if funds are limited then think about a SDR perhaps
[08:04] <eroomde> but yeah, i now thing a gentle launch from ground could be the easiest way
[08:04] <eroomde> fairly low acceleration through the thicker end of the atmosphere and just aim to get to about mach 5 at 25km
[08:04] <eroomde> and the coast the rest of the way
[08:05] <Penfold> googles, peers. oo. cute :D
[08:08] <RocketBoy> eroomde: your probably right - rockoon very difficult range logistics
[08:08] <eroomde> yeah. the crossrange to 99.5% confidence is hundreds of km
[08:09] <eroomde> also I am sold on biprops
[08:09] <RocketBoy> :)
[08:09] <eroomde> and biprop from a balloon would be a trick and a half
[08:10] <RocketBoy> yeah
[08:10] <RocketBoy> seen the co-ax triprops?
[08:10] <eroomde> but biprops really do scale favourably compared to solids when you're at sort of 100kg of rocket
[08:10] <eroomde> i've not
[08:10] <eroomde> is that a fuel/oxidier grain with extra oxidiser?
[08:10] <RocketBoy> see if I can dig out some info
[08:11] <RocketBoy> different fues
[08:11] <RocketBoy> fules
[08:11] <RocketBoy> changes fuel through the flight
[08:11] <eroomde> blimey
[08:12] <eroomde> to what end?
[08:12] <RocketBoy> plasitc to start with - slow
[08:12] <RocketBoy> then more aggessive fuel for faster
[08:13] <eroomde> that's what i don't like so much compared to pure liquid. you need these huge combustion chambers to contain the fuel and they are heavy to cope with the pressure
[08:13] <eroomde> whereas with biprop you can keep the fuel tanks just fairly lightly pressurised, and pressure feed them in a relatively much smaller combustion chamber
[08:14] <RocketBoy> they use a fuel contaner thats co-axial combustion chamber thats used to pre-heat the 2nd fuel
[08:15] <RocketBoy> thats about all I can remember
[08:15] <eroomde> the atlas rockets even just had stainless steel balloon fuel tanks that only get their strength and structural rigidity when pressureised
[08:15] <eroomde> yeah the heat transfer into the next fuel is nice
[08:16] <eroomde> but we do that with biprops too :)
[08:16] <RocketBoy> other than seeing a video that looked a bit lie the USS enterprise going from impulse engines to warp drive
[08:16] <eroomde> :)
[08:17] <eroomde> I am pushing forward with the ground biprop to >100km idea. I'll talk about it a bit at the conf
[08:18] <RocketBoy> yumy
[08:19] <eroomde> did you see the recent test fire of our N20/IPA chamber on the gimballing platform?
[08:19] <RocketBoy> nope
[08:19] <eroomde> sec
[08:20] <eroomde> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkGlKYRISFM
[08:22] <RocketBoy> I lied the idea of jetvectors for rocket exhaust
[08:23] <eroomde> they do suffer
[08:23] <RocketBoy> rather than the whole engine
[08:23] <RocketBoy> was going to try to turn one up in graphite
[08:24] <eroomde> that chamber is very long because the injectors are a bit simple
[08:24] <eroomde> there's a new one with a better injector that is about 2/3 the length
[08:24] <eroomde> but yes, wiggling all that mass around does not make it friendly for min diameter robots
[08:24] <eroomde> (100km rocket would be just fins)
[08:25] <Penfold> erp. Ok. THAT's long enough looking at SDR. *grins at RocketBoy* I should, y'know, do some actual work :D
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[08:27] <RocketBoy> have a look ere http://rfhead.net/?p=484 - might not be the right thing if you are new to the game
[08:27] <RocketBoy> fins is simple
[08:27] <eroomde> zackly
[08:28] <eroomde> 100km is the aim of the game. this test bed is going to be for the armadillo-style hovering hoppers
[08:28] <RocketBoy> with active stabilization?
[08:28] <eroomde> i.e. something different
[08:28] <eroomde> no
[08:29] <RocketBoy> simples
[08:29] <eroomde> just fins
[08:29] <RocketBoy> so a throtteling up bi-prop
[08:29] <eroomde> get it fast enough off the tower and let air do the rest
[08:30] <eroomde> yep
[08:30] <eroomde> min diameter, min dry mass etc
[08:30] <RocketBoy> what about boosted dart?
[08:30] <RocketBoy> if we are talking 100km simples
[08:30] <eroomde> well, burnout will be above most of the air anyway
[08:31] <eroomde> so i'm mess worried about coasting drag
[08:31] <eroomde> less*
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[08:33] <RocketBoy> they used to get 50+ Km from these http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/n-1.html
[08:35] <RocketBoy> wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of that ballistic re-entry
[08:35] <eroomde> 9kN for 1.9s
[08:35] <eroomde> that'd be like an O20000 :)
[08:35] <eroomde> P?
[08:36] <RocketBoy> P or Q methins
[08:36] <RocketBoy> 1Kn = M just ?
[08:36] <eroomde> wikipedia says 0 = 20-40kns
[08:37] <eroomde> i'd like to get a boosted dart flight to test the gps stuff
[08:37] <eroomde> thast would be a convincing little demo :)
[08:39] <RocketBoy> keeping structural integrity was a challenge IIRC
[08:39] <eroomde> i can well imagine!
[08:40] <eroomde> it's basically a cannon
[08:40] <eroomde> for a boosted dart
[08:41] <RocketBoy> but for me it sort of looked do-able development wise
[08:42] <eroomde> i have often wondered about sinking a bore hole into the ground
[08:42] <eroomde> and doing you tube launch idea
[08:42] <eroomde> but for much bigger rockets
[08:43] <eroomde> not so much for the overall delta v gain but more for a the 'rail exit velocity' gain
[08:43] <RocketBoy> it really does get em moving
[08:43] <eroomde> which might help with stability
[08:43] <RocketBoy> sure will
[08:43] <eroomde> because i'm looking at a really pretty low takeoff acceleration
[08:43] <eroomde> for this gentle biprop
[08:44] <eroomde> and was considerign some kinda solid strapon just to get it up to >100mph or so off the tower
[08:44] <RocketBoy> yep thats a good idea
[08:45] <eroomde> something that lights quickly
[08:45] <eroomde> not an N
[08:45] <RocketBoy> "tube launched" is fun
[08:46] <eroomde> our N in may took forever to get going
[08:46] <eroomde> cough, paheh, chuurg, grrr, blgmgmgmg, ROOOOOOAAAARRR
[08:46] <eroomde> but that was like 2-3 s before the roar
[08:47] <RocketBoy> yeah bi-prop and hybrids are a bit like that
[08:47] <eroomde> this was a solid
[08:47] <eroomde> :)
[08:47] <RocketBoy> was thinking of a spin stabilised (no fin) rocket launched from a spinning tube
[08:47] <eroomde> yes that is v sensible
[08:47] <eroomde> i like that idea
[08:48] <RocketBoy> I have a launch tube partially made
[08:48] <eroomde> u gonna be able to instrument your dart somehow?
[08:48] <RocketBoy> for some estes Ds - just to try the idea out
[08:48] <eroomde> to get an alt?
[08:49] <RocketBoy> yeah spinng electronics is a challenge
[08:49] <eroomde> mmm
[08:49] <RocketBoy> also deploying chutes
[08:49] <eroomde> mmm
[08:50] <eroomde> actually there was a paper presented at the aiaa conf on deploying chutes from howlitzer shells
[08:50] <eroomde> doing hundreds of rpm at apopgee
[08:50] <eroomde> they basiclaly just used a swivel
[08:50] <eroomde> ...
[08:50] <RocketBoy> have to be a good swivel
[08:51] <eroomde> yes i beleive it was
[08:51] <eroomde> a proper bearing
[08:51] <RocketBoy> not a fishing line swivel then ;-)
[08:51] <eroomde> :)
[08:51] <eroomde> right, need to run. back in about 1hr
[08:52] <RocketBoy> might try it without the chute
[08:52] <RocketBoy> cu
[08:52] <RocketBoy> bbl
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[08:59] <jgrahamc> Pong UpuWork
[09:00] Nick change: Laurenceb__ -> Laurenceb_
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[09:09] <UpuWork> hi jgrahamc
[09:09] <UpuWork> quick PM
[09:09] <jgrahamc> Hi
[09:09] <jgrahamc> Go for it!
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[09:34] <jgrahamc> Does anyone know what the CAA position is on The Register's LOHAN? Isn't the glider a UAV?
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[09:36] <daveake> They're not doing it in the UK
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[09:36] <russss> jgrahamc: they did their last launch in Spain
[09:36] <jgrahamc> Ah.
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[09:36] <jgrahamc> I was asking because I was intrigued by eroomde's suggestion the other day of doing a precision landing using a guided parafoil.
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[09:39] <cuddykid> think I might abort the sunday launch
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[09:40] <eroomde> jgrahamc: i think a parafoil would be grey enought to be on the side pf legal
[09:40] <eroomde> the notam just says it must come down via parachute
[09:41] <jgrahamc> Was wondering if might get away with that since it wouldn't be powered, would be a parachute and would just be guiding its descent.
[09:41] <eroomde> parafoils are parachutes, just with a higher glide ration than most parachutes (though *every* parachute has a glide ratio, even if the manufactureres say otherwise)
[09:41] <jgrahamc> Have you read any of the research on guided parafoils?
[09:41] <eroomde> yes :)
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[09:43] <eroomde> there are some effects of being at high altitude which must be considered
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[09:43] <eroomde> the biggest difference between the dynamics at high altitude and low altitude is due to an effect that the literature calls 'added mass'
[09:43] <jgrahamc> it doesn't seem completely out of the question
[09:44] <jgrahamc> Care to explain...
[09:44] <eroomde> which is to say, the systems inertia and mass properties are defined both by the mass of the thing and the mass air being entrained by the system (the chute)
[09:44] <jgrahamc> And the mass must change dramatically with pressure
[09:44] <eroomde> so, the chute entrains a certain volume of air around it (usually rules of thumb for different chutes might be say 3 forebody diameters)
[09:45] <eroomde> and the mass of the valume is obviously a function of thr air density, and so altitude
[09:45] <eroomde> now, that means that at higher altitudes, the centre of gravity of the entire system goes down towards the payload
[09:45] <eroomde> because the parachute end is 'lighter'
[09:45] <eroomde> this reduces the stability
[09:45] <eroomde> i.e it's not like a simple system where the payload is alike a pendulum hanging underneath the parachute
[09:46] <eroomde> the big problem with parafoils is that it's therefore easier to get into a stall, and parafoils loose their reigidity when they stall
[09:46] <eroomde> i.e. the whole lot could collapse and the parafoil could end up wrapping itself around the paylaod
[09:46] <jgrahamc> Oops
[09:46] <eroomde> which is what happened when they did some simulations for guided paraoil martian landing
[09:47] <eroomde> BUT, it's not like a brick wall of a problem, i don;t think
[09:47] <eroomde> just, needs to be considered
[09:47] <Darkside> hmm, go to london this weekend or not..
[09:48] <eroomde> so if you can model a controller sufficiently well, I think you'd be in with a chance
[09:48] <eroomde> the other option of course is to bomb down to lower altitudes under a drogue
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[09:48] <eroomde> then deploy a parafoil
[09:49] <eroomde> but that will reduce the space of possible landing sites
[09:49] <jgrahamc> Also that adds the complexity of deploying safely and discarding the drogue
[09:50] <eroomde> yes indeed
[09:50] <eroomde> you don't necessarily have to discard it though
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[09:52] <eroomde> I have some confidence in designing more complex parachute deployment systems for hab though, having sone it a few times now including for some fairly safety-critical flights
[09:53] <Darkside> what is the holiday this monday?
[09:53] <jgrahamc> It would be very interesting to work on something like this. My current plan is to do GAGA-2 (which will be a bristling with cameras flight) and then I'll need something to motivate me to do GAGA-3.
[09:53] <jgrahamc> A precision landing would be pretty interesting.
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[09:55] <eroomde> yes it would be
[09:55] <eroomde> and a first
[09:55] <eroomde> first for ukhas anyway
[09:55] <eroomde> it would be very pleasing to have some New Things being done
[09:55] <Darkside> landing within a 1km diameter circle would be very cool
[09:55] <daveake> What like spaace art? ;)
[09:56] <eroomde> zippit
[09:56] <daveake> lol
[09:57] <Darkside> though i think with better descent predictions, that kind of targeting may be acheivable with just a simple cutdown
[09:57] <jgrahamc> The ideal situation would be a precision landing where we can get to the landing site and wait for it and perhaps even catch it as it comes down.
[09:57] <Darkside> well, you don't need precision landings to be able to catch it :P
[09:58] <Darkside> terry almost did that, but there was a fence in the way...
[09:58] <eroomde> jgrahamc: i have long wanted to do such a flight
[09:58] <eroomde> where you let go
[09:58] <eroomde> unfold a deck chair
[09:58] <eroomde> open up a copy of the paper and crack open a beer
[09:58] <Darkside> jgrahamc: http://projecthorus.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/IMG_09331.jpg
[09:58] <daveake> eroomde you missed the BBQ step
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[09:58] <eroomde> look at your watch ebout 2.5hrs later, and say 'oh yes, there it is' at an approaching dot in the sky
[09:59] <Darkside> haha
[09:59] <Darkside> eroomde: yes, that woudl be awesome
[09:59] <daveake> yup
[09:59] <Darkside> we've done the bbq thing, but that was one of the flights where the balloon floated..
[09:59] <Darkside> and where it landed in teh sea..
[09:59] <jgrahamc> When we did GAGA-1 it landed about five miles from the friends where we were having lunch. Would have been even better if we'd all headed over there to open the beers and told them: "It's going to land in your field over there"
[09:59] <daveake> Speaking of which, I'd still like to have a homing boat
[09:59] <jgrahamc> daveake: that would not be hard
[09:59] <daveake> Deliberately land in the sea, choose the best beach to aim for
[09:59] <Darkside> still, i think the descent predictions can be improved
[10:00] <Darkside> make use of the ascent data
[10:00] <daveake> jgrahamc That's what I find attractive :)
[10:00] <Darkside> depending on how far away it lands, it could make the last few km of predictions far more accurate
[10:00] <daveake> Darkside Steve's onboard code does that AIUI
[10:01] <jgrahamc> daveake: I used to mess around the R/C boats. You just need a couple of props and control would be trivial.
[10:01] <Darkside> daveake: yeah, so i've heard
[10:01] <eroomde> the dynamic predictor does that
[10:01] <jgrahamc> Of course, would depend how far out to sea you are.
[10:01] <Darkside> eroomde: eh? which one?
[10:01] <daveake> Yes; might need a cutdown to make it land far enough out but not too far
[10:01] <eroomde> and pretty certain the offline flight predictor with noaa data will give better results than the propagate-the-model-on-the-way-down-through-the-measurements-on-the-way-up apprach
[10:02] <eroomde> which is what we used to use but ditched in about 2007 when we wrote the predictor
[10:02] <Darkside> eroomde: hrm
[10:02] <Darkside> eroomde: we have had to do things like update the gfs files in the middle of a chase before
[10:02] <Darkside> because we launched before the 0Z sonfe, and landed well after
[10:02] <Darkside> sonde*
[10:02] <eroomde> yes, this assumes the latest and greatest forcast data naturally
[10:02] <Darkside> the problem is when we land 3-4 hours after 0Z or whatever
[10:02] <jgrahamc> With every flight there seems to be quite a lot of trajectory change once near the ground due to wind speeds.
[10:03] <Darkside> by that point the data is pretty inaccurate
[10:03] <Darkside> yeah
[10:03] <eroomde> but i think it is more relevant than assuming temporal and position similarity on the way down as you saw on the way up
[10:03] <eroomde> it's a different bit of the country and it's a couple of hours later
[10:03] <daveake> sure
[10:03] <daveake> which could be a big change
[10:03] <Darkside> eroomde: depends on the terrain, and where th eballoon lands
[10:03] <eroomde> jgrahamc: i'm not sure how the dynamic predictor is implemented
[10:04] <eroomde> Darkside: yes of course it does
[10:04] <Darkside> if it ends up being an up/down launch, it could be useful
[10:04] <eroomde> that's preciely my point
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[10:04] <Darkside> it might be a useful option which could be switched on if required
[10:04] <eroomde> i'd still be caution about up/down
[10:04] <eroomde> weather paramaters are 4d
[10:04] <eroomde> you're only matching 3 there
[10:05] <Darkside> yes of course
[10:05] <Darkside> its just we've seen the predictor be totally incorrect for the last 10km of descent before
[10:05] <Darkside> and it'd be nice if could use some known data to help at peast partially correct it
[10:05] <eroomde> but i'm not sure that's the precitors fault so much as the implementation of how the predictor is used
[10:05] <Darkside> true
[10:05] <eroomde> how you dynmically learn the ballistic coefficient of the system under parachute as it descends
[10:06] <eroomde> it seems very noisy as implemented on spacenear
[10:06] <eroomde> but that could be because it's doing velocity by taking the difference between 2 time points
[10:06] <Darkside> for the last few km we usually go off the vertical and horizontal velocity measurement and what we see out the window
[10:06] <eroomde> which is very noisy
[10:06] <Darkside> we downlink horizontal velocity from the gps
[10:06] <eroomde> whereas something like a kalman filter can infer velocity from position much more optimally
[10:06] <Darkside> not sure if thats much better
[10:07] <Darkside> its useful to have that data in the string through
[10:08] <Darkside> or so we find anyway, gives us an idea of our chase speed relative to the balloon
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[10:09] <eroomde> i'd quite like to write an implementation of how the dynamic predictor is set off on the way down myself
[10:09] <eroomde> and then compare that to other methods
[10:10] <eroomde> just because i think having a proper state estimator would make a world of difference
[10:11] <Penfold> one assumes when you're that close to the ground local terrain effects/heating etc make a fair bit of difference
[10:12] <Darkside> well we've had silly things happen like the payloads being caught in what we can only assume was a thermal
[10:12] <Penfold> doesn't surprise me.
[10:12] <Darkside> and descent at ridiculously slow speeds
[10:12] <Darkside> 0.1m/s...
[10:13] <Penfold> is the predictor grabbing data from local surface weather stations at that point?
[10:13] <Darkside> no
[10:14] <Darkside> wouldn't have mattered in this case, the closest weather station was 200km away
[10:14] <Penfold> eesh
[10:14] <Darkside> oh wait, maybe 100km
[10:14] <Darkside> still, australia
[10:14] <Darkside> everything is far away
[10:15] <Penfold> rtue
[10:15] <Penfold> true
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[10:49] <UpuWork> ping navrac_work
[10:49] <navrac_work> hello upuwork
[10:49] <UpuWork> hi there
[10:50] <UpuWork> quick PM
[10:50] <navrac_work> fire away
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[10:57] Nick change: M0JSN -> jonsowman
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[11:05] <navrac_work> all done upu
[11:06] <jgrahamc> Warning to fellow HABers in this chat room. If UpuWork asks you for a 'quick PM' he's taking you round the back with a lead pipe to extract £20.
[11:07] <navrac_work> Well in fairness, I was biting his hand off to send the money when he first announced the habamp
[11:08] <navrac_work> so if he hadnt got to me first I would be demanding he let me pay money with menace
[11:13] <Penfold> mm. may well be interested in a HABAmp in a bit
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[11:14] Action: Gadget-Mac fancies a HABamp too
[11:15] Action: fsphil wants his signed by Darkside and UpuWork :)
[11:15] <Penfold> *laughs*
[11:15] <fsphil> they are rather nifty. my funcube dongle is deaf when plugged into my colinar (to many nearby transmitters)
[11:15] <daveake> Maybe they could do a signing session at the conf?
[11:15] <fsphil> the filter on habamp clears all that up nicely
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[11:17] <Penfold> current plan I think is to grab one of the realtek dongles for a song and see if I can at least get it to demonstrate basic 'listening to the airwaves' skills :D
[11:17] <fsphil> good plan
[11:17] <Penfold> after which, habamp :D
[11:18] <fsphil> people have tracked with the basic dongle before
[11:18] <eroomde> during descent the payloads will also swing to the left, looking down the wind vector
[11:18] Action: Laurenceb epic yawn
[11:19] <Laurenceb> did someone say something about return to base?
[11:19] <navrac_work> so I should swing my dongle to the left too?
[11:19] <Laurenceb> eww
[11:19] <Laurenceb> like prince harry?
[11:20] <eroomde> Laurenceb: yes they did
[11:20] <navrac_work> well if I've got a naked woman behind me maybe she could do that so I've got a hand free for the mouse to retune when the payload drifts
[11:20] <Laurenceb> ...
[11:21] <fsphil> autotune!
[11:21] <Laurenceb> i never understood autotune
[11:21] <navrac_work> cant get fldigi to retune the dongle
[11:21] <Laurenceb> it always sounds horrendous
[11:21] <fsphil> ah right, dongle
[11:21] <Laurenceb> anyways, who wants to make a return vehicle thingy?
[11:21] <navrac_work> yep its very clear - sounds out like a sore thumb to me
[11:22] <navrac_work> stands sorry
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[11:22] <Penfold> Laurenceb: that's when people use it as an effect. if you use it as what it was originally designed for, you shouldn't be able to tell it's being used
[11:23] <navrac_work> Sadly I still can hear - worked in pro audio for years and my ears are oversensitive to it
[11:23] <fsphil> or it's being used incorrectly
[11:23] <Laurenceb> <- music noob
[11:23] Action: Laurenceb tried to give a shit enough to read scrollback
[11:23] <Penfold> the one thing you don't do is hit the 'retune automatically' button
[11:24] <navrac_work> nowdays the singers record the vocals onto a backing track and the mixing guy xfades between live and pre recorded vocals - slightly less obvious than autotune
[11:24] <fsphil> anyway, this was not the autotune I was looking for
[11:24] <navrac_work> unless they record the pre recorded in a small space then you can hear that change too
[11:25] <Penfold> navrac_work: if you're using it live, you've got bigger problems anyway :D
[11:25] <Laurenceb> anyway, if anyone wants to do return to landing site id be happy to help them out
[11:25] <navrac_work> no true. I sold my nifty autotune box - it couldnt cope with bad singers
[11:26] <navrac_work> I only bought it so i didnt have to listen to out of tune singers when i was mixing, but sadly it kept giving up cos if the singer was so far out it couldnt work out what the note was meant to be
[11:27] <navrac_work> on the subject of the the other autotune is there no way to get fldigi to tune an fcd?
[11:27] <jonsowman> how do you tune the FCD?
[11:27] <navrac_work> dll
[11:28] <navrac_work> currently though i use hdsdr
[11:28] <jonsowman> is there an API sort of thing then?
[11:28] <fsphil> newer versions of hamlib can tune the fcd
[11:28] <Darkside> jonsowman: its a HID interface, theres a few programs that do it
[11:28] <jonsowman> oh ok
[11:28] <Darkside> qthid is the one i use
[11:28] <fsphil> but ideally you'd tune through the sdr app
[11:28] <Darkside> yeah
[11:28] <jonsowman> well hamlib seems to be the answer here
[11:29] <fsphil> I had spectravue + dl-fldigi running
[11:29] <fsphil> dl-flidig controlling the frequency via hamlib
[11:29] <Darkside> yeah, thats what you should be doing, something like that
[11:29] <fsphil> although it was reporting the wrong frequency, it did adjust correctly
[11:29] <Darkside> you shouldn't be using the raw IQ in dl-fldigi directly
[11:29] <Darkside> it does kidn of work
[11:29] <Darkside> but its bad
[11:29] <fsphil> I wasn't, it was recording from spectravue
[11:29] <fsphil> before wine broke that horribly
[11:30] <fsphil> I was hoping to add a virtual ssb decoder to gqrx but the code doesn't seem to be written that way
[11:30] <jonsowman> wine? break stuff? never
[11:30] <Darkside> fsphil: what happened?
[11:30] <Darkside> i had issues with using spectravue on ubuntu recently
[11:30] <Laurenceb> DarkSide: wtf
[11:30] <fsphil> wine? they screwed up the pulseaudio driver
[11:30] <Darkside> still works on my macs version of wine
[11:30] <Laurenceb> how can fldigi take raw iq?
[11:30] <Darkside> ahh
[11:31] <fsphil> it was either choppy audio, or no audio
[11:31] <fsphil> then it might work for a few minutes
[11:31] <fsphil> until I moved a window
[11:31] <Darkside> Laurenceb: when you tune close enough to the signal, you kind of get sideband audio
[11:31] <Darkside> well, its actually DSB
[11:31] <Laurenceb> ... lol
[11:31] <Darkside> direct conersion receiver yo
[11:31] <fsphil> yea, I've had dl-fldigi reading the raw data from the fcd
[11:31] <fsphil> I tracked hadie:4 initially that way
[11:31] <Darkside> so yeah, it can work
[11:31] <Darkside> but its dodgy
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[11:35] <MrScienceMan> q/disc
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[11:36] <fsphil> subtle
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[12:40] -:#highaltitude- [freenode-info] why register and identify? your IRC nick is how people know you. http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
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[12:45] <nick_> hi nigelvh_
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[13:05] <jgrahamc> So, eroomde if I wanted to get a parafoil to experiment with... any pointers to a good source?
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[13:09] <eroomde> jgrahamc: i was wondering this too
[13:09] <eroomde> i beleive ripmax used to make an RC parafoil toy
[13:09] <eroomde> http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=14284
[13:10] <jgrahamc> Hmm. $17. That I can afford.
[13:10] <jgrahamc> Have servos probably need an IMU.
[13:11] <BrainDamage> you can get imus from chinese sellers for incredibly reasonable prices, 9DOF for 30$ or so, but I didn't bother checking the chip specs
[13:12] <BrainDamage> so there's possibility of high drift, etc
[13:12] <jgrahamc> I know Chris Anderson (exec. editor of Wired and the guy behind DIY Drones)... will see if I can persuade him to discount one of their nice IMU things.
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[13:14] <jgrahamc> https://store.diydrones.com/APM_2_0_Kit_p/br-ardupilotmega-03.htm
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[13:16] <BrainDamage> if you're comfortabl with stm32, consider openpilot instead
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[13:17] <nick_> A wii motion plus could be made into a cheap IMU
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[13:45] <eroomde> nick_: you're so hacker space :)
[13:45] <eroomde> I like it
[13:46] <eroomde> always suggesting hacking a nintendo wii or using rfid
[13:46] <eroomde> now you must die a portion of your hair some bright colour
[13:46] <eroomde> dye*
[13:46] <nick_> A motion plus is basically a cheap 3 axis gyro
[13:46] <Penfold> heh
[13:46] <nick_> (or more accurately a cheap 2 axis and 1 axis gyro)
[13:47] <nick_> And I guess some other stuff too
[13:47] <eroomde> gosh it is cheap
[13:47] <Penfold> ?that talks bluetooth
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[13:48] <eroomde> jgrahamc: inkeeping with the spirit of optimisation for web demographics, you could use a raspberry pi as the brains
[13:48] <eroomde> that would have the horsepower to do some quite good sensor fusion, to get good estimates from these very xheap and not inherently accurate sensors
[13:48] <nick_> With a nunchuck and motion plus you can get a 6 axis IMU for £0
[13:49] <nick_> With a nunchuck and motion plus you can get a 6 axis IMU for £20
[13:49] <eroomde> With a nunchuck and motion plus you can get a 6 axis IMU for £40
[13:49] <eroomde> With a nunchuck and motion plus you can get a 6 axis IMU for £60
[13:49] <BrainDamage> who offers more?
[13:49] <nick_> (£0 is if you steal it from an unsuspecting child)
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[13:50] <jgrahamc> I read someone from MIT's thesis on guided parafoil's last night. One thing that was interesting was that interesting was that got 2-5m landing point accuracy by having someone on the ground designate a landing spot from an onboard camera in final approach.
[13:50] <eroomde> yes, cvis makes a lot of sense
[13:50] <eroomde> a big orange x or something
[13:50] <BrainDamage> radioactive marker!
[13:50] <jgrahamc> It occurred to me that it might be possible to do OpenCV stuff and stick a landing spot marker on the ground and have the thing find it.
[13:51] <nick_> Or better yet stick it on someone
[13:51] <eroomde> and again something more substantion like a linux single board computer would have the capacity to implement the necessary algorithms without arduous optimisation or simplification
[13:51] <eroomde> substantial*
[13:51] <jgrahamc> Agreed. RaspPi might be the way to go and can easily run OpenCV on it as well and it has the GPIO for servo control.
[13:52] <nick_> Does the pi have PWM exposed in GPIO?
[13:52] <BrainDamage> you can always bit bang it
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[13:52] <nick_> I'd be tempted to do pi + uC
[13:53] <eroomde> that would work nicely too
[13:53] <eroomde> there is something to be said for an isolated motion control bit
[13:54] <eroomde> just communicated with the pi over a uart or something
[13:54] <eroomde> communicating*
[13:54] <BrainDamage> spi would probably be the simplest
[13:54] <eroomde> sure, whatever works really
[13:55] <eroomde> the daughter uC could also do the hard real time control loops at whatever frequency (50hz say, so one pulse to each servo per loop) and the raspi can update the commands to it somewhat more asynchronously
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[13:56] <eroomde> i should say, the uC could both read the sensors and drive the servos on a hard real time loop, and then the raspi can handle it in a not-hard-real-time way somewhere within that 20ms period
[13:57] <Penfold_> also, given the amount of grunt in a PI, you do get then option of coding in somethibg a little more highlevel
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[13:57] <jgrahamc> OK. So, I have RaspPi plus lots of uC, servos, I'll order a parachute. Have GPS modules. Just need IMU.
[13:57] <eroomde> well for example, you can fuse the gps, gyroscope and accelerometer data with a kalman filter
[13:57] <jgrahamc> Yes, that's what the guy did in his thesis.
[13:57] <jgrahamc> Penfold_: high level?
[13:58] <eroomde> which should give you a good estimate of your state vectors [lat,lon,alt,latspeed, lonspeed, verticalspeed, roll, pitch, yaw, rollrate, pitchrate, yawrate] etc
[13:58] <eroomde> which an 8 bit micro would choke on
[13:59] <eroomde> state vector*
[13:59] <eroomde> not vectors
[14:04] <Laurenceb> roll, pitch, yaw
[14:04] <Laurenceb> fail
[14:05] <Laurenceb> you need quaternions
[14:05] <jgrahamc> The technique used in the thesis I read was first vectoring to vicinity of the arrival point. Then circling while attitude is lost. Then an into the wind approach.
[14:06] <daveake> Sounds very sensible
[14:09] <BrainDamage> you might want to measure airspeed too
[14:09] <BrainDamage> but that'd mean either an hot wire anemometer or a pitot tube
[14:11] <jgrahamc> What would I do with airspeed?
[14:11] <jgrahamc> If I fall below stall speed I'm screwed anyway.
[14:12] <eroomde> Laurenceb: that's not mutually explusive
[14:12] <eroomde> you can use quaterions as an internal state representation
[14:12] <Laurenceb> yes
[14:12] <eroomde> exclusive*
[14:12] <jgrahamc> I don't see any problem using quaternions.
[14:13] <eroomde> indeed, it's a Good Idea
[14:13] <Laurenceb> maybe ill fly my rogallo
[14:13] <Laurenceb> maybe i cant be bothered
[14:13] <Laurenceb> anyway, for dealing with wind there seems to be an optimum technique
[14:14] <eroomde> although they are not linear algebra which is why i have also got a big confused about using them directly in state space representations
[14:14] <Laurenceb> if you run the equivalent of landing spot prediction in reverse
[14:14] <eroomde> a bit*
[14:14] <Laurenceb> from the target upwards
[14:14] <Laurenceb> to the current altitude, using glider decent rate
[14:15] <Laurenceb> then aim at the point you end up at
[14:15] <Laurenceb> if you follow me :P
[14:15] <eroomde> jgrahamc: I'm not sure if u ever set Laurnce to /ignore but if you did, he is talking about wind compensation atm :)
[14:15] <Laurenceb> lol
[14:15] <jgrahamc> Yes, eroomde quaternion's are non-commutative.
[14:15] <jgrahamc> No, I am listening
[14:15] <eroomde> lol ok, just checking
[14:15] <eroomde> yes, so that's why i've always used quaternions just as an internal state representation
[14:15] Nick change: Laurenceb -> ToddAkin
[14:16] <eroomde> and translated them back into auler angles for the actual state space model maths
[14:16] <eroomde> euler*
[14:16] <eroomde> which is just linalg
[14:16] Nick change: ToddAkin -> Laurenceb
[14:17] <Laurenceb> tbh if you use something stable this is all overkill
[14:17] <Laurenceb> i used a single axis gyro and gps on my rogallo
[14:17] <Laurenceb> and it worked fine in testing
[14:17] <jgrahamc> In the thesis I read he did wind compensation pretty much as Laurenceb suggests. Using ground track from the GPS and the predicted path.
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[14:17] <number10> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8H2-vkUM0I I think the dev board is only £100
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[14:18] <Laurenceb> i used an atmega168
[14:19] <jgrahamc> http://www.st.com/internet/evalboard/product/250367.jsp
[14:20] <jgrahamc> That's the board number10 is talking about
[14:20] <Laurenceb> you have one?
[14:20] <Laurenceb> pita to get
[14:20] <Laurenceb> ive got a couple
[14:20] <number10> I have one on my desk at work, but I am not doing the clever bit - just a gps interface
[14:21] <Laurenceb> i see
[14:22] <eroomde> several I sees infact
[14:22] <eroomde> all on one pcb
[14:22] <Laurenceb> tbh if i was making a parafoil/rogallo from scratch i'd use maybe an lsm303dlh and an invensense gyro with stm32
[14:22] <jgrahamc> An an ARM
[14:22] <jgrahamc> And an ARM processor as well.
[14:23] <number10> yes
[14:23] <Laurenceb> then do tilt corrected compass
[14:23] <Laurenceb> and use a single gyro axis for heading control
[14:23] <Laurenceb> no need to make it complex
[14:23] <Laurenceb> with kalman and whatnot
[14:24] <Laurenceb> thats like a few lines of code using the openpilot matrix libs
[14:24] <eroomde> it sort of depends i think. if it's definitely inherently stable, then yes, a gps and a compass is probably all you need
[14:24] <Laurenceb> rogallo is
[14:24] <Laurenceb> ive tested that _very_ thoroughly
[14:25] <Laurenceb> by kicking of 10th floor balcony
[14:25] <eroomde> sure but it's rigid
[14:25] <Laurenceb> hmm
[14:25] <Laurenceb> semi rigid
[14:25] <eroomde> yes
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[14:25] <Laurenceb> its not very deployable thats for sure
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[14:26] <eroomde> it's not 'it's a parachute, 'guv' is my point
[14:26] <Laurenceb> hmm
[14:26] <eroomde> from the pov of uav legislation
[14:26] <Laurenceb> i think you could argue it was
[14:27] <eroomde> i think you couldn't. and i know every person in the country they would call to be an expert witness to decide what is and isn;t a parachute too
[14:27] <eroomde> and they'd agree with me
[14:27] <Laurenceb> heh
[14:27] <eroomde> assuming it got that far of course
[14:27] <Laurenceb> but parafoils are a pita
[14:27] <eroomde> you might be able to argue it with betty whose geraniums you land on
[14:29] <Laurenceb> there are more flexible rogallo designs
[14:29] <Laurenceb> or inflatible
[14:30] <eroomde> an inflatable rogallo might be different
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[14:30] <eroomde> but if it's a ram air rogallo, that's not really any easier than a ram-air parafoil
[14:30] <Laurenceb> yes
[14:30] <Laurenceb> so any rigid spars make it not a parachute?
[14:31] <eroomde> basically yes. structural rigidity has to come from dynamic pressure
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[14:31] <Laurenceb> but it does is a rigid rogallo :P
[14:31] <Laurenceb> as otherwise the flbrid is slack
[14:32] <eroomde> well, hah, there's me being sloppy with my terminology. structural rigidity has to come from the increased pressure from stagnation
[14:32] <Laurenceb> *fabric
[14:32] <Laurenceb> i see
[14:32] <eroomde> no a rogallo is not 'slack'
[14:32] <eroomde> it might be slack in just one axis
[14:32] <eroomde> but that's not the same thing
[14:32] <Laurenceb> i see
[14:33] <Laurenceb> if thats true i may as well give up
[14:33] <Laurenceb> as its not happening
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[14:35] <eroomde> i'd be inclined to fly it anyway
[14:35] <eroomde> just don't shout about it
[14:35] <Laurenceb> yeah
[14:35] <Laurenceb> but thats my modus operadi
[14:35] <eroomde> it's cool, it's worth persuing
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[14:35] <eroomde> the actual risk (orthogonal to legal wording) is very small
[14:35] <Laurenceb> if someones got something to contribute they will find out about it
[14:36] <Laurenceb> otherwise i avoid publicity
[14:36] <Laurenceb> now... back to the issue of where the f**k is everyone
[14:36] <Laurenceb> im in a building my myself
[14:37] <Laurenceb> and have been since monday
[14:37] Action: Laurenceb makes note to try golf center
[14:37] <BrainDamage> they finally found a way to avoid you?
[14:37] <Laurenceb> looks like it
[14:37] <Laurenceb> this place is an utter joke
[14:37] <eroomde> in 'Safer C', a book on weiting safety critical C, there is a very amusing story of a software bug
[14:38] <Laurenceb> ratio fo golf to work is approaching infinity
[14:38] <eroomde> where an entire inventory houseing warehouse for a big multinational did not get a single delivery or pickup for 3 whole years
[14:39] <eroomde> because someone doing some inventory management software upgrade accidently introduced a bug that made that particular warehouse unreachable by the management algorithm
[14:39] <Laurenceb> lol
[14:39] <eroomde> and for 3 whole years none of the staff at this warehouse said anything
[14:39] <Laurenceb> hehe
[14:39] <eroomde> not wanting to point out the fact that they weren't doing anything
[14:39] <eroomde> but they just kept turning up and doing zero and getting paid
[14:39] <eroomde> so, check your research dept is not the same way Laurenceb
[14:39] <Laurenceb> well today it seems someone uploaded a gantt chart
[14:40] <Laurenceb> with 16 days timeline for developing and testing a custom sensor
[14:40] <Laurenceb> wtf were they smoking
[14:40] <SamSilver> weed man
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[14:41] <eroomde> i don;t really understand what you're doing Laurenceb
[14:41] <Laurenceb> would take 16 days just to book time of the CNC to mill the injection moulds
[14:41] <eroomde> is it a PhD or is it product engineering?
[14:41] <Laurenceb> both
[14:41] <Laurenceb> PhD is kind of on the side
[14:41] <eroomde> but a huge amount of it seems to be just 'stuff' rather than research
[14:41] <eroomde> are right
[14:41] <eroomde> ah*
[14:42] <Laurenceb> ill upload what i do all day
[14:42] <Laurenceb> just a sec
[14:42] <number10> thias board is available in uk < £100 is 9 axis with ARM http://www.digikey.co.uk/product-detail/en/STEVAL-MKI119V1/STEVAL-MKI119V1-ND/2770468
[14:42] <Laurenceb> ooh
[14:43] <eroomde> gyroc got a special treat
[14:43] <Laurenceb> st gyros suck tho
[14:43] <eroomde> one of those black box combined 9dof things from analog devices
[14:43] <eroomde> in a sort of 30mm black cube
[14:43] <eroomde> it is very very nice
[14:43] <Laurenceb> it is very very overpriced
[14:44] <Laurenceb> .. maybe - the quality is probably good
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[14:44] <eroomde> it is a reasonably fair price
[14:45] <eroomde> its 3 of their good gyros (about >£50 each) and 3 good acclerometers, and a 3 axis magnetometer, and a pressure sensor
[14:45] <eroomde> all integrated in a way which saves several hours of engineer time (and therefore hundreds of quid)
[14:45] <eroomde> so it's a steal really
[14:46] <eroomde> and we've got good data from it. designing a board to sample it simultaneously with a gps front end sampler and whack it all over ethernet
[14:46] <Laurenceb> http://i.imgur.com/sruvi.jpg
[14:46] <eroomde> so i can have a dataset to test the combined gps/inertial reconstruction thing
[14:47] <Laurenceb> im making those
[14:47] <eroomde> what are they?
[14:48] <Laurenceb> inflatible pneumatic plastery thing
[14:48] <Laurenceb> connects to air supply and inflates a pouch against the skin
[14:48] <Laurenceb> then does IR spectroscopy through it
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[14:49] <jgrahamc> Is it one of these: http://uk.farnell.com/analog-devices/adis16400bmlz/ic-module-gyro-accel-mag-24pin/dp/1852642?Ntt=ADIS16400BMLZ eroomde ?
[14:49] <eroomde> yes
[14:49] <eroomde> or in that range anyway
[14:50] <eroomde> i think there are a couple like that. 1 sec will get you the precise part no
[14:51] <Laurenceb> as you can imagine this project is ... fun
[14:51] <Laurenceb> as it has to meet bazillion bio-compatibility standards
[14:52] <eroomde> jgrahamc: http://uk.farnell.com/analog-devices/adis16407bmlz/ic-acceleration-sensor-18g-ml-24/dp/2133200
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[14:53] <jgrahamc> Looks like a nice bit of kit.
[14:54] <Laurenceb> im going to give up on current design i think
[14:54] <Laurenceb> cuz it sucks
[14:54] <eroomde> the difference in that one is that it has the pressure sensor
[14:54] <Laurenceb> yeah looks nice specs
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[14:54] <eroomde> and is calibrated to -40C
[14:55] <eroomde> i think that's about it
[14:56] <jgrahamc> Also >£500 though
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[14:56] <Laurenceb> shrug
[14:56] <Laurenceb> i just spent that on LEDs
[14:57] <eroomde> speaking of pricey sensors, this is on my christmas list
[14:57] <eroomde> http://www.active-robots.com/sensors/object-detection/laser-range-finder/hokuyo-robotics-laser-2.html
[14:58] <eroomde> i have implemented a particle filter that does localisation, but in an invented world. I would really like to actually use it on a quadcopter (or hovering rocket!) for precise landing
[14:58] <eroomde> and localisation in general
[14:58] Nick change: phuzion -> gaben
[14:58] Nick change: gaben -> phuzion
[15:00] <jgrahamc> Don't tempt me on LIDAR stuff.
[15:00] <eroomde> it's really very exciting
[15:00] <jgrahamc> Yes, it is.
[15:00] <jgrahamc> And £££
[15:00] <jgrahamc> back in a bit
[15:01] <eroomde> i've always had a side interest in localisation and mapping, of late i've had a change to properly get my head around the problem of recursive bayesian computation in general (so kalman filters, particle filters, everything else) and so now feel like I intuitively understand it a lot better
[15:01] <eroomde> to the point i really want to make an actual robot that does it
[15:01] <eroomde> had a chance*
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[15:03] <Laurenceb> liveblogging
[15:03] <Laurenceb> http://i.imgur.com/5jTqr.png
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[15:04] <Laurenceb> sensor is now glued to my hand
[15:04] <Laurenceb> seems to be working
[15:05] <Laurenceb> - pressure applied and released
[15:05] <Laurenceb> from 15 to 19 seconds
[15:08] <Laurenceb> problem: how to remove sensor
[15:09] <Randomskk> possibly maybe this problem could have been anticipated moments before you glued the sensor to your hand
[15:09] <Laurenceb> indeed
[15:12] <Laurenceb> it peels off but takes top layer of skin with it
[15:12] <Laurenceb> shhhh heath and safety never heard that
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[15:25] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[15:25] <Darkside> Lunar_Lander: hello!
[15:25] <fsphil> Good day to you Sir!
[15:25] <Lunar_Lander> thank you
[15:25] <Lunar_Lander> how are you?
[15:25] <Darkside> JOLLY GOOD DAY OLD CHAP
[15:25] <Darkside> VERY WELL SIR
[15:26] <UpuWork> Greetings lunar
[15:26] <Darkside> HOW ARE YOU THIS FINE EVENING MR LANDER?
[15:26] <UpuWork> pray tell what manner of random testing are you engaging on today ?
[15:26] <Laurenceb> *MR ASSANGE
[15:26] <UpuWork> ascertaining if your payload is Wombat proof ?
[15:26] <Darkside> only I have that problem
[15:27] <Darkside> wombats are nasty buggers
[15:27] <fsphil> I blame wombats for hadie:2
[15:27] <UpuWork> I think you should test to ensure it works if submerged under the polar ice cap
[15:27] <UpuWork> just in case
[15:27] Action: UpuWork pats Lunar_Lander
[15:27] <fsphil> you can tell it's a Friday
[15:28] <Lunar_Lander> it would be nice if we could talk about the real problem that the longitude is 20 km to the east
[15:28] <UpuWork> that is indeed an issue
[15:28] <UpuWork> padding ?
[15:28] <Lunar_Lander> padding?
[15:28] <Darkside> padding.
[15:28] <eroomde> look on the walls around you Lunar
[15:28] <eroomde> that is called padding
[15:28] <fsphil> I bet you haven't adjusted for the nmea-standard of coordinate
[15:28] <UpuWork> http://www.ukhas.org.uk/guides:common_coding_errors_payload_testing#padding_issues
[15:29] <Lunar_Lander> OK the longitude it shows is 8.2.... E
[15:29] <Lunar_Lander> and I am at 8.02...E
[15:29] <Lunar_Lander> so I think that should be it
[15:29] <UpuWork> oh yes padding
[15:29] <fsphil> padding
[15:29] <fsphil> oh, that's already been said
[15:29] <UpuWork> lol
[15:29] <Lunar_Lander> thanks!
[15:30] <Darkside> this is why i use dtostrf...
[15:31] <Lunar_Lander> another thing is that I noticed that the ublox gives out -17 as an altitude when it doesn't have lock, in my string that is just a 17
[15:32] <Darkside> the ublox can report negative value for altitude i believe
[15:32] <Darkside> i think
[15:32] <fsphil> it can
[15:32] <Darkside> Lunar_Lander: what type are you using for altitude?
[15:32] <fsphil> nigel got that all the time
[15:32] <Darkside> and are you casting properly
[15:32] <fsphil> cardiff not looking so good if the sea level rises
[15:33] <Darkside> also i've noticed that my ublox modules report some rather weird altitudes and positions while they are in the process of obtaining lock
[15:33] <Lunar_Lander> int32_t
[15:33] <fsphil> how are you parsing it?
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[15:34] <Lunar_Lander> what exactly do you need the GPS part of the programß
[15:34] <Lunar_Lander> ?
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[15:38] <Lunar_Lander> brb
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[15:41] <HixHome> at the risk of getting shot, does anyone use visual studio for arduino development?
[15:41] <jgrahamc> eroomde: I too am very interested in robotics.
[15:41] <jgrahamc> Lots of interesting stuff there.
[15:41] <HixHome> It seems much better than the native ide, tooltips seem pretty helpful
[15:42] <Darkside> HixHome: i've heard visual studio is a nice IDE
[15:42] <Darkside> but i don't use windows
[15:42] <Darkside> so no
[15:42] <HixHome> i'm stuck with it as my native CAD only runs on Win these days
[15:42] <eroomde> jgrahamc: yes, really fascinating
[15:43] <HixHome> but it seems much better for learning with
[15:43] <Darkside> HixHome: i run multiple machines
[15:43] <HixHome> i've got ubuntu as a dual boot option, but don't use it too much really
[15:43] <eroomde> jgrahamc: I rather like how easy a lot of these algorithms are to code
[15:44] <eroomde> in that it's not that many lines of code before you start getting exciting results. just enormous data structures
[15:44] <HixHome> not used Unix for a good few year, and to be honest, while its very powerful I dont really miss doing everything in command line
[15:44] <jgrahamc> I worked with a guy who was an expert on reinforcement learning techniques (which are used a lot for autonomous robots) and was fascinating. He got a scholarship from the Royal Society (genius level guy), but oddly the algorithms are fairly simple.
[15:44] <jgrahamc> He was/is involved in computer solutions to the game Go.
[15:44] <eroomde> yes, that always seems to be the way. you can explain them to someone quite easily
[15:45] <Laurenceb> n reinforcement learning techniques
[15:45] <eroomde> for example on thursday I wrote a particle filter for something, the whole thing was about 30 lines of python including boilerplate
[15:45] <Laurenceb> *whip sounds*
[15:45] <jgrahamc> It's true that particle filters are pretty easy
[15:45] <eroomde> yet so powerful
[15:46] <eroomde> well, I guess like a lot of bayesian problems they're as good as your priors, your choice of distributions to resample each new particle from and so forth
[15:46] <kokey> i've been getting a lot of emails about a human robotics interaction company in cornwall that's looking for a developer
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[15:48] <eroomde> the example I like to show people because it's so simple is that lets say you have apredicted distribution and a measurement distribution on the same axis
[15:48] <jgrahamc> Bayesian stuff in general is amazingly powerful given the simplicity
[15:48] <eroomde> ---^------^---
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[15:48] <eroomde> bayes rule when you multiply those 2 clearly different things will say 'yes, this is the posterior with even higher confidence!'
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[15:49] <eroomde> ------/\------
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[15:49] <eroomde> you have to imagine that's a tall thinner gaussian than the previous 2
[15:49] <eroomde> ascii limitations sorry
[15:49] <Laurenceb> heh
[15:50] <eroomde> so wehere infact either your model or your measurement are clearly entirely in disagreement with each other, bayes rule will still let you get away with it. lulling you into a perhaps false sense of security
[15:51] <eroomde> but that's not a failing of bayes rule really. operator error
[15:51] <eroomde> if i had to get a tattoo it would probably be bayes rule
[15:52] <jgrahamc> Ha ha ha
[15:52] <jgrahamc> I did lots of stuff with Bayes rule for text classification.
[15:52] <kokey> ah
[15:52] <eroomde> well henry, also in CUSF, got the rocket equation tattood on his arm while at MIT
[15:53] <kokey> actually, I've been using jgrahamc's bayes perl script to identify sockpuppets on an online forum I moderate
[15:53] <jgrahamc> Nerdy
[15:53] <jgrahamc> You have?
[15:53] <jgrahamc> The one from Dr Dobbs?
[15:53] <kokey> hmmm, must be
[15:54] <jgrahamc> Or perhaps you are using POPFile?
[15:54] <jgrahamc> Dr Dobbs article: http://www.drdobbs.com/architecture-and-design/naive-bayesian-text-classification/184406064
[15:54] <jgrahamc> POPFile: http://getpopfile.org/
[15:56] <kokey> yeah it's the Dr Dobbs one
[15:56] <jgrahamc> Neat.
[15:57] <kokey> worked quite well, but now I've switched to using AI::Categorizer's NaiveBayes
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[15:58] <jgrahamc> Makes sense. AI::Categorizer has lots of good stuff, including the feature selector.
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[15:59] <kokey> yeah it's full of goodies, I might have to make up an excuse to use it in my day job
[16:02] <eroomde> i am quite enjoying being a sigproc/control person ina rocketry field
[16:02] <eroomde> there's a lot of low hanging fruit for which to apply your specialist knowledge
[16:02] <eroomde> and I get to build rockets also
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[16:13] <kokey> nice
[16:14] <eroomde> i did get some advice from a few people before specialising in my degree that there's something to be said for coming at a field slightly sideways, if you want to do something useful in it
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[16:16] <Penfold> :)
[16:16] <kokey> I've always gone into everything sideways
[16:17] <kokey> I think going into something in the normal direction gets you stereotyped beyond your control
[16:18] <kokey> oh, didn't notice google maps now do cycle routes in the uk
[16:18] <kokey> 1 hour 47 minutes to cycle to work
[16:19] <kokey> I prefer the 20 minutes walk, and 20 minute train ride, that I have
[16:19] <eroomde> yeah
[16:19] <eroomde> bit easier
[16:22] <nosebleedkt> yo
[16:22] <bertrik> The google cycle routes are a bit weird here in the netherlands. You can use your bicycle nearly everywhere in the city, but only a few routes are indicated on the map.
[16:22] <Penfold> I should find out how long my commute would be on a bike?.
[16:23] <eroomde> my bike commute is 22 miles
[16:23] <eroomde> so I don't do it that often
[16:25] <Penfold> 9.7
[16:25] <nick_> You guys all have the wrong kind of bike
[16:25] <Penfold> 54 in
[16:25] <Penfold> nib
[16:25] <Penfold> min!
[16:25] <eroomde> Penfold: that's quite a gentle pace
[16:25] <Penfold> which is still shorter than my commute by train./tube before I got this job by about 45 mins
[16:25] <nick_> You can get this thing called an engine to attach to it...
[16:25] <eroomde> i imagine they assume u don;t have shower facilities at your destination
[16:26] <kokey> I prefer my bikes to have seats, aircon, and on metal tracks
[16:26] <kokey> or four rubber wheels on tarmac for backup
[16:26] <Penfold> kokey - no ta. did 6 years+ of commuting into london, had my fill
[16:27] <kokey> 40 minutes, door to door, for me, and I always get a seat
[16:27] <kokey> I could probably make it 30 minutes if I used a folding bike
[16:27] <Penfold> 13, d-t-d, driving.
[16:27] <Penfold> :D
[16:27] <kokey> I lived in Gibraltar for 3 years
[16:28] <Penfold> one of the many reasons I like $newjob
[16:28] <kokey> 2 of the years it was a 5 minute walk to the office
[16:28] <kokey> 10 minute walk to the airport check in desk
[16:28] <kokey> and 15 minutes walk to spain
[16:28] <bertrik> spain would take a bit longer for me
[16:28] <nick_> I loved commuting in Geneva.
[16:29] <nick_> There was a tram from my road to the lab that took ~25 min and came every 5 mins.
[16:29] <eroomde> you just throw yourself onto the fountain
[16:29] <eroomde> get propelled to 300m
[16:29] <nick_> Very comfortable and I could happily read standing or seated (if it was busy when I got on I'd usually get a seat within a couple of stops)
[16:29] <eroomde> deploy a parafoil
[16:29] <eroomde> and glide to work
[16:29] <nick_> I read so many books.
[16:29] <nick_> Like 1/week
[16:29] <kokey> I've got a problem with reading on the train etc. at the moment
[16:29] <kokey> I think I've buggered my neck from too much phone use
[16:30] <nick_> I don't like reading on the bus I currently get, it vibrates and shakes too much
[16:30] <kokey> so I can really tilt my head down to read much
[16:30] <kokey> what do you read on?
[16:31] <kokey> I should try out a kindle or something perhaps it's not too bad to hold up
[16:31] <Penfold> I found podcasts better on trains.
[16:31] <Penfold> went through all of the history of rome, and the meeples & miniatures wargaming podcast
[16:31] <kokey> yeah I podcast it all the time now
[16:32] <kokey> problem is that podcasts are much slower than reading
[16:32] <kokey> I prefer podcasts for the daily radio 4 today stuff
[16:32] <nick_> I do love my kindle
[16:33] <Penfold> kokey: that's why the iphone has a x2 playback option on thigs categorised as podcast
[16:33] <Penfold> still perfectly intelligible
[16:33] <nick_> Very handy, much better ergonomically than a real book, battery lasts forever, etc
[16:34] <kokey> ok the 'much better ergonomically than a real book' has me sold
[16:34] <nick_> My ~brother in law listens to audiobooks at 4x normal speed
[16:34] <nick_> The only thing I would possibly worry about is how you turn pages on the new touch screen one
[16:34] <kokey> I guess audiobooks can be listened to faster
[16:34] <kokey> radio interviews 2x don't work too well
[16:35] <nick_> (you can only listen to bbc style radio faster than normal(
[16:35] <nick_> (you can only listen to bbc style radio faster than normal)
[16:35] <nick_> I have the old kindle, you can change pages forward or backwards on both sides.
[16:35] <nick_> So you can use it single handed in either hand.
[16:35] <Randomskk> nick_: don't get the touchscreen one if I were you
[16:35] <nick_> But I think the new ones you have to touch the RHS to go forward, LHS for backwards
[16:35] <Randomskk> my sister has that and I have the older keyboard one
[16:36] <nick_> YEah, I've got the old keyboard one
[16:36] <Randomskk> and I really dislike the touch one
[16:36] <Randomskk> much more annoying to change page or use the menu or search for things
[16:36] <kokey> do they still sell the old one new?
[16:36] <Randomskk> to be honest I'd be tempted by the keyboard one even now
[16:36] <Randomskk> yea
[16:36] <Randomskk> but if not, the cheapest one still has buttons
[16:36] <nick_> I palyed with the touch one for a bit and other than the issue I just mentioned it seemed fine
[16:36] <Randomskk> nick_: yea, but turning the page is the thing you do more than anything else
[16:36] <nick_> The most important thing is turning pages, that's what you'll do the most
[16:36] <Randomskk> and I find much easier on the keyboard one
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[16:37] <nick_> Does the touch screen one let you touch in different places on either side to go forward/backward, or is it just left=back, right=forward?
[16:37] <Randomskk> I think it's just left=back right=forward
[16:38] <kokey> depends where you want to go in the
[16:38] <kokey> choose your own adventure story
[16:38] <BrainDamage> textual adventure
[16:39] <Randomskk> admittedly CYOA is great on kindle
[16:39] <BrainDamage> there's a balooon, a big foam cube next to it, a parachute and a computer
[16:39] <BrainDamage> what to do?
[16:40] <Randomskk> > take lamp
[16:41] <nick_> CYOA usually kills me.
[16:41] <BrainDamage> Randomskk: you have died of dysentery
[16:42] <Randomskk> http://youchosewrong.tumblr.com/
[16:42] <Randomskk> ^ collection of CYOA dead ends
[16:42] <Randomskk> as in dead ends
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[17:02] <_Hix-Android> Darkside wasnt being ignorant laptop laptop went from 43% to dead in 3 mins earlier
[17:03] <_Hix-Android> New batt needed methinks
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[17:26] <Lunar_Lander> back
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[17:28] <griffonbot> Received email: Adam Cudworth "[UKHAS] Re: Launch Announcement - this weekend (25th/26th August)"
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[19:05] <Upu> fixed it Lunar_Lander ?
[19:08] <Lunar_Lander> Upu, no, not yet, the hardware is at the lab anyway
[19:08] <Upu> ok
[19:09] <Upu> Got your code to hand ?
[19:09] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[19:10] <Upu> link it on pastebin
[19:12] <Lunar_Lander> it's divided in four parts
[19:12] <Lunar_Lander> main part: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1164983/
[19:12] <Lunar_Lander> GPS: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1164984/
[19:12] <Upu> ok give me 10 mins
[19:12] <Lunar_Lander> RTTY: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1164985/
[19:12] <Lunar_Lander> Sensors: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1164986/
[19:12] <Lunar_Lander> OK
[19:13] <Darkside> ok
[19:13] <Darkside> first off
[19:13] <Darkside> stop using your own conversion routines
[19:13] <Darkside> just use existing ones
[19:13] <Darkside> i mean, converting from double to string or whatever
[19:13] <Darkside> dtostrf exists for a reason
[19:14] <Lunar_Lander> you mean instead of that fmtDouble?
[19:14] <Darkside> yes
[19:14] <Darkside> it also means you won't get padding issues
[19:14] <KT5TK_QRL> Lunar_Lander what's the exact problem to solve?
[19:14] <Darkside> KT5TK_QRL: padding issues
[19:15] <Darkside> which are solved by using the functions already in the c libs
[19:15] <KT5TK_QRL> at the BMP085?
[19:15] <Lunar_Lander> no the longitude
[19:15] <Lunar_Lander> it was given as 8.2 East and I was at 8.02 east
[19:15] <KT5TK_QRL> Ah, I see. Will have a look also
[19:16] <Darkside> Lunar_Lander: i'm pretty sure Serial.println is blocking
[19:16] <Darkside> so you don't need all those delay statements in teh gps setup function
[19:16] <Darkside> delay(3000); // Wait for the GPS to process all the previous commands
[19:16] <daveake> I was going to mention that char GPSAltitude[20] was a teeny bit optimistic, but you're not using it anyway.
[19:16] <Darkside> it does not take 3 secodns to process a nmea command
[19:17] <DanielRichman> the 8.02 transmitted as 8.2 thing used to happen all the time
[19:17] <Darkside> you don't need to wait
[19:17] <DanielRichman> a standard bug
[19:17] <fsphil> still does :)
[19:17] <Lunar_Lander> Darkside, ok
[19:17] <Darkside> DanielRichman: i've noticed people seem to like writing their own double to string conversion routines
[19:17] <Darkside> which is weird
[19:17] <DanielRichman> to the extent that we have an issue in habitat "add a common filter to automatically fix this common problem"
[19:17] <DanielRichman> but then people stopped doing it on live flights
[19:17] <DanielRichman> so we haven't bothered
[19:17] <Darkside> as there's existing ones in libc that WORK.
[19:17] <DanielRichman> Darkside: ikr
[19:17] <DanielRichman> also they're faster
[19:17] <Darkside> sure, might use a little bit more flash memory
[19:18] <Darkside> but its not like you're short on it
[19:18] <DanielRichman> also floats on avr, eww
[19:18] <Darkside> i just use dtostrf
[19:18] <Darkside> DanielRichman: well its what tinygps uses :P
[19:18] <Darkside> and its nicer to use that than to parse NMEA by yourself
[19:18] <DanielRichman> if you cared about memory you wouldn't use floats, right?
[19:18] <Darkside> yes yes we should be using the binary mode, i know
[19:18] <Darkside> but i cbf writing a ublox binary parser just yet
[19:18] <Darkside> though admittedly i just wrote one in python...
[19:19] <DanielRichman> nah I agree with you; NMEA + libc functions are definitely the way to go
[19:20] <Darkside> Lunar_Lander: stop writing your own conversion routines, seriously
[19:20] <Lunar_Lander> which ones exactly?
[19:20] <Darkside> like, all the stuff in the gps parse stuff
[19:20] <Lunar_Lander> fmtDouble or which ones?
[19:20] <Darkside> decimal_2
[19:20] <Lunar_Lander> ah that was by PD3EM
[19:20] <Randomskk> ublox binary is the easiest thing in the world to parse
[19:20] <Randomskk> like
[19:20] <Randomskk> it's much much easier than doing NMEA parsing
[19:20] <Darkside> just get the value, cast it to a float, and divide or whatever
[19:21] <Randomskk> https://github.com/adamgreig/wombat/blob/master/code/gps.c#L160-189
[19:21] <Randomskk> you just read in like a few bytes
[19:21] <mattbrejza> if anyone was interested the elonics part datasheet is floating around on the internet now
[19:21] <Randomskk> stick them together into a 32 bit number
[19:21] <Randomskk> and done
[19:21] <Darkside> mattbrejza: yeah saw that
[19:21] <Darkside> Randomskk: yeah
[19:21] <Darkside> its a fixed point integer isnt it?
[19:21] <Randomskk> yea.
[19:22] <Lunar_Lander> thanks Randomskk reading now
[19:22] <Darkside> what do you use to convert that to a string?
[19:22] <Randomskk> Darkside: sprintf
[19:22] <Darkside> :P
[19:22] <Darkside> ok
[19:22] <Randomskk> and what?
[19:22] <Darkside> so you divide it down?
[19:22] <Darkside> or what
[19:22] <Randomskk> it's got 20kB RAM, 1Mbit flash and a FPU
[19:22] <Darkside> or insert 0's manually
[19:22] <Randomskk> I cast it to a double and divide by 1E7
[19:22] <Darkside> yep ok
[19:22] <Randomskk> and then sprintf
[19:23] <Darkside> thats basically what i'd do anyway
[19:23] <Randomskk> it took me like an hour to write if that
[19:23] <Darkside> since even the avr has enough ram to do floating point stuff
[19:23] <Darkside> sure, its slow, but its not like you need to do this thousands of times a second
[19:23] <Darkside> hell, at 50 baud irs once every 20 seconds or something
[19:23] <Lunar_Lander> Randomskk, that is a completely different chip!
[19:23] <Randomskk> Lunar_Lander: yes, I wasn't referring you to it specifically
[19:23] <Lunar_Lander> oh
[19:25] <mattbrejza> bearing in mind you have to talk in ublox format to send flight mode, its not much more to use it to get position
[19:25] <Darkside> yeah
[19:25] <Darkside> hrmm
[19:25] <Darkside> need to check the messages
[19:25] <Darkside> is there one that has velocity too?
[19:25] <Darkside> i mean, as well as lat/lon/alt
[19:25] <Randomskk> I don't think so, but it's really no effort to just get a couple of messages...
[19:25] <Randomskk> I haven't looked
[19:25] <Randomskk> there might be
[19:25] <Randomskk> but there's one easy one for position so I use that
[19:25] <Darkside> mm
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[19:27] <radim_OM2AMR> hi, there is some problem with predictor :-( Knows anybody what is with it ?
[19:28] <radim_OM2AMR> There was an error in running the prediction: Unhandled exception: ValueError: string size must be a multiple of element size
[19:28] <Upu> oh its you making my inbox fill up
[19:28] <Randomskk> yea
[19:28] <Randomskk> we're on it
[19:28] <Randomskk> Upu: ?
[19:28] <Upu> I get a mail
[19:29] <Randomskk> Upu: the predictor failed emails are from a cron job that runs automatically, errors on people running the predictor are not emailed
[19:29] <Upu> ah ok
[19:29] Action: Upu shuts up
[19:29] <Randomskk> though yes, the check did catch this problem :P
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[19:29] <radim_OM2AMR> :-) not just me, other guys from Slovakia also, I'm sorry Upu
[19:30] <Upu> no worries :)
[19:30] <OZ1SKY_Brian> hi
[19:30] <radim_OM2AMR> I will tell them to not to use it for a while
[19:30] <Lunar_Lander> hi OZ1SKY_Brian
[19:30] <Upu> Evening Brian
[19:30] <OZ1SKY_Brian> The zoo balloon have landed again :-)
[19:30] <Upu> lol
[19:30] <Upu> any where interesting ?
[19:31] <OZ1SKY_Brian> in a backyard, on top of a kids playhouse
[19:31] <OZ1SKY_Brian> http://www.fyens.dk/article/2141973:Odense--Zoo-ballon-kunne-have-udloest-flystyrt#
[19:31] <Upu> nice looks like the kids are having fun :)
[19:32] <OZ1SKY_Brian> hehe yeah
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[19:34] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[19:35] <Lunar_Lander> Upu, btw what do you want to do with the code?
[19:36] <OZ1SKY_Brian> Who is going to make a HAB app for android, that can alert you, when a balloon is within range. Now dont reply all at once...
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[19:39] <Darkside> OZ1SKY_Brian: volunteering?
[19:40] <Upu> Lunar
[19:40] <Lunar_Lander> yes?
[19:40] <Upu> sorry ended up having to reconfigure a phone system for the bank holiday took me a while, seems the others have give you some ideas
[19:40] <Lunar_Lander> yea didn't got through yet, sorry
[19:40] <OZ1SKY_Brian> lol i wish, but i no programming skills what so ever. Had some pascal lessons some 20years ago
[19:40] <Lunar_Lander> can you give me some pointers still please?
[19:42] <Upu> well basically what the others said use a procedure that does the conversion
[19:42] <Upu> personally I keep everything as integers
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[19:43] <DanielRichman> radim_OM2AMR: From a brief look, it looks like the predictor outage is due to some problem with the NOAA wind/weather servers
[19:43] <DanielRichman> there's not much we can do about it :-(
[19:43] <radim_OM2AMR> DanielRichman, ok, many thanks for explanation
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[19:45] <radim_OM2AMR> We will hope the problem with NOAA is just temporary
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[19:50] <Lunar_Lander> Upu, ok
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[20:01] <Gadget-Mac> Have you seen the stripped down gopro https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11418
[20:02] <Randomskk> I'd hesitate to call it a gopro
[20:02] <Randomskk> more like one of those cheap ebay cameras
[20:02] <Randomskk> but bigger and heaveir
[20:02] <Randomskk> heavier*
[20:02] <Randomskk> and way more expensive
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[20:03] <Darkside> only does 30fps too
[20:03] <Darkside> and only has a 160 degree lens..
[20:04] <Gadget-Mac> Don't shoot the messenger ;)
[20:04] <Darkside> :P
[20:05] <DanielRichman> Lunar_Lander: have you fixed your problem yet?
[20:06] <Lunar_Lander> not yet, why?
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[20:11] <DanielRichman> this fix costs 10 hab points: http://pastie.org/4582398
[20:11] <DanielRichman> (provided that works correctly on the avr; it should do)
[20:12] <daveake> :)
[20:12] <OZ1SKY_Brian> gn all
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[20:12] <DanielRichman> You're using String() [an arduino provided class] to convert integer to string, and you can't ask it to add padding. snprintf is the easiest way to go
[20:13] <daveake> Lunar_Lander That code you uploaded earlier, is any of it yours or is it all copied from other projects?
[20:14] <Lunar_Lander> the sensor part is from code examples, RTTY was mostly Upu, GPS PD3EM
[20:14] <Lunar_Lander> the fmtDouble function was made by a friend of mine
[20:14] <daveake> Find a new friend?
[20:15] <daveake> Seriously though, use standard routines where you can.
[20:15] <Lunar_Lander> ok
[20:15] <daveake> And don't rely on code that you don't know works
[20:15] <Laurenceb_> in b4 RMS
[20:16] <Upu> lol
[20:16] <Upu> send the code back to your friend and advice its not right
[20:17] <Lunar_Lander> RMS?
[20:17] <Lunar_Lander> root mean square?
[20:17] <daveake> Royal Mail Ship
[20:17] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[20:17] <Laurenceb_> teehee
[20:17] <Laurenceb_> Richard Stallman
[20:17] <Lunar_Lander> OK get rid of fmtDouble then?
[20:18] <KT5TK_QRL> Lunar_Lander yes, do that
[20:18] <Lunar_Lander> ok
[20:18] <daveake> I think at least 10 people have told you that so far
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[20:19] <daveake> "10" may be an exaggeration, or I may have used one of those routines to produce it
[20:20] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[20:20] <Laurenceb_> theres only 10 people, those who understand binary and those who dont
[20:21] <Randomskk> 10 _types_ of people
[20:22] <KT5TK_QRL> you mean b10?
[20:25] <Upu> I used to think I was a nerd
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[20:30] <KT5TK_QRL> Lunar_Lander: In case you're using decimal_2 somewhere else in your code, then fix it too, as DanielRichman suggested ^^^
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[20:31] <Lunar_Lander> ok
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[20:38] <DrLuke> there are 10 types of people on this world: Those who know ternary, those who don't, and those who think this is a binary joke.
[20:39] <Laurenceb_> that can be extended to any number system
[20:40] <Randomskk> not unary
[20:40] <Randomskk> it has two symbols
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[20:42] <DrLuke> what?
[20:42] <DrLuke> unary only has one symbol
[20:42] <DrLuke> hence un-ary
[20:43] <Randomskk> and the literal "10" has two, hence you can't put it into unary.
[20:44] <Laurenceb_> <Upu> I used to think I was a nerd
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[20:50] <edmoore> You know, I think the predictor might not be working
[20:50] <edmoore> It is just a hunch
[20:50] <jgrahamc> I doesn't really make sense to think of unary and other bases in the same context. Fundamentally a base needs to have a power greater than 1 to even work. For example, the binary system's digits are 2^0 2^1 2^2 etc.
[20:50] <edmoore> There are a couple of oblique references to it in my inbox
[20:50] <jgrahamc> Unary would be 1^0 1^1 1^2 etc. which are all the same.
[20:51] <jgrahamc> And you can't represent 0 in unary
[20:51] <DrLuke> ^
[20:51] <DrLuke> I wonder if pi would work as a base
[20:51] <DrLuke> pinary
[20:52] <daveake> It'll work to a degree
[20:52] <edmoore> Ouch
[20:52] <edmoore> Your rading all the puns
[20:52] <edmoore> You're
[20:53] <daveake> I make no claims of quality
[20:53] <DrLuke> I think your puns are out of phase
[20:53] <daveake> I operate in some strange circles
[20:53] <edmoore> It's just a phase or something
[20:54] <Laurenceb_> what Upu said
[20:54] <daveake> It's 'cos I sin
[20:54] <edmoore> You're off at a tangent
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[20:54] <edmoore> Lame but obvious
[20:55] <daveake> :)
[20:55] <nick_> :(
[20:55] <nick_> Always insulting me when I arrive...
[20:55] <Laurenceb_> lol
[20:56] <Upu> nick_
[20:56] <Upu> do you still want a HABamp ?
[20:56] <Laurenceb_> http://astro.kent.ac.uk/facilities/lgg.htm
[20:56] <jgrahamc> pi wouldn't make a very good base. What do you do for digits?
[20:56] <Upu> ping G0DJA
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[20:57] <nick_> I hadn't said so originally, but if there are enough in the first batch then I'm interested.
[20:57] <edmoore> Its not a very rational choice for a base
[20:57] <daveake> hohoho
[20:58] <Upu> hmm hang on who is nickb ?
[20:58] <Upu> thats not you is it ?
[20:58] <nick_> No
[20:58] <daveake> nick is the wrong nick
[20:59] <Upu> meh
[20:59] <DrLuke> jgrahamc: no need to be all irrational about it
[20:59] <DrLuke> :)
[20:59] <jgrahamc> DrLuke: you were beaten to that joke by edmoore
[20:59] <DrLuke> I just saw
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[20:59] <jgrahamc> No one's made a joke about pi being a normal number or a transcendental.
[21:00] <edmoore> My puns about pi as a base are transcendental
[21:00] <edmoore> Ahem
[21:00] <DrLuke> Keep it real
[21:01] <edmoore> Geordies sometime presumably ask for the square root of -1 at a pub
[21:01] <Upu> Nick Blommen
[21:01] <edmoore> "pie alright dave?"
[21:01] Action: nick_ is Nick Ryder
[21:01] <edmoore> Eee to the aye, pi
[21:02] <edmoore> man
[21:02] <Laurenceb_> +1 to that
[21:03] <edmoore> Zero idea what you're on about Laurenceb_
[21:04] <BrainDamage> Upu: out of curiosity, what's an habamp?
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[21:05] <nick_> Upu: I'll probably get one later. The next month or so will be super busy for me so I wouldn't get any time to play with it.
[21:06] <Upu> its a small PCB designed by Darkside that sits in front of an SDR
[21:06] <Upu> it filters and boosts the signal coming in
[21:06] <edmoore> A preamp and bandpass filter
[21:06] <BrainDamage> lc, waveguide, or saw?
[21:06] <Upu> SAW
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[21:07] <Upu> wwhttp://rfhead.net/?p=484
[21:07] <Upu> you don't need the ww's
[21:08] <DrLuke> .oO(maybe if my worktable wasn't so messy I wouldn't loose my crystals all the time)
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[21:09] <edmoore> My electronics bench is at the loosing stuff stage
[21:09] <edmoore> Needs its monthly tidy
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[21:11] <DrLuke> do you guys know that phenomenon when you're looking for something specific you always find when you DON'T need it, but never when you DO need it
[21:11] <edmoore> Daily
[21:11] <DrLuke> aah
[21:11] <DrLuke> found my precious crystals
[21:12] <Laurenceb_> meth?
[21:12] <griffonbot> Received email: Anthony Stirk "[UKHAS] VK3JMC"
[21:12] <DrLuke> obviously
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[21:35] <gonzo__mob> i spend half of my life looking for something i put down 5min ago
[21:35] <DrLuke> how old are you
[21:35] <DrLuke> 10 minutes?
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[21:58] <Gadget-Mac> Upu: Whats the status on HABAmps ?
[21:59] <Laurenceb_> just landed a job starting next year XD
[21:59] <Upu> I'm shipping the first 20 out
[21:59] <Upu> are you on the list ?
[21:59] <Gadget-Mac> Upu: Don't think so, can I go on the 21+ list ?
[22:00] <Randomskk> Laurenceb_: nice! where at?
[22:00] <Upu> sure
[22:00] <Laurenceb_> Phillips in Guildford
[22:00] <BrainDamage> what if the new job bans irc?
[22:00] <Randomskk> oh, in the surrey research park?
[22:00] <Laurenceb_> *Philips
[22:00] <Upu> done Gadget-Mac
[22:01] <Gadget-Mac> Cool.
[22:01] <Laurenceb_> no centre of Guildford
[22:01] <Upu> I'll let you know they will be on the shop
[22:01] <Laurenceb_> or closeish
[22:01] <Upu> in the shop even
[22:01] <Laurenceb_> off the A3
[22:01] <Gadget-Mac> I may have e-mailed at some point. Can I pm details ?
[22:01] <Randomskk> the research park is off the a3
[22:01] <Randomskk> but okay, I think I know where you mean :P
[22:01] <Laurenceb_> yeah its on the left as you drive through
[22:01] <Upu> of course Gadget-Mac
[22:01] <Laurenceb_> - away from London
[22:02] <Laurenceb_> its complex - I'm not actually employed by them
[22:02] <Laurenceb_> its a Knowledge transfer thingy
[22:02] <Laurenceb_> and I own the IP
[22:02] <Laurenceb_> meaning crazy amounts of cash to be earnt :D
[22:02] <Randomskk> their medical division stuff?
[22:02] <Randomskk> hah nice
[22:03] <Randomskk> a few of my friends worked there over the summer
[22:03] <Laurenceb_> yes
[22:03] <Randomskk> mostly doing MRI stuff
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[22:04] <Laurenceb_> yeah they arent very big in small cheap disposable sensor stuff
[22:05] <Laurenceb_> Masimo and Covidien are the main names
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[22:05] <Laurenceb_> but I knew someone who knew someone... and thats how it goes
[22:06] <Randomskk> indeed
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[23:26] <DrLuke> http://i50.tinypic.com/33m8lug.png
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[23:26] <DrLuke> woohoo! reading out the ublox6 over i2c works :D
[23:28] <Gadget-Mac> DrLuke: coolio
[23:30] <zyp> how does that work, do you still just get a byte stream?
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[23:37] <Laurenceb_> yes
[23:38] <Laurenceb_> ive had this working on ublox5 too
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[23:38] <Laurenceb_> - my own code
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[23:45] <DrLuke> zyp: yes
[23:45] <DrLuke> you first read a 16 bit (two bytes) register containing the length of the message
[23:46] <DrLuke> and then you repeatedly read the same register, outputting the bytestream
[23:46] <DrLuke> kinda disappointing, I hoped to be able to directly read the coordinated and stuff out of it, but oh well
[23:47] <zyp> so there is not really any advantages
[23:47] <zyp> except maybe flow control, if you view that as an advantage
[23:47] <DrLuke> well
[23:48] <DrLuke> the advantage is that it doesn't use the uart
[23:48] <DrLuke> if you already use that for something else
[23:57] <Lunar_Lander> good night
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[00:00] --- Sat Aug 25 2012