highaltitude.log.20120820

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[03:09] <KT5TK> MrCraig Want to come visit?
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[04:00] <nigelvh> KT5TK, thanks for the input on the boards. I just fixed up some things, and sent a reply. I'll probably be ordering them shortly.
[04:10] <KT5TK> Cool, just read your e-mail
[04:12] <nigelvh> I'm glad to be making progress with this. When projects take a while sometimes they fall to the back of your list and you think to yourself "I'll work on something else today"
[04:12] <KT5TK> Some pics from the last BLT flight: http://tkrahn.dyndns.org/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=4560&g2_page=2
[04:13] <nigelvh> Are they sorted at all?
[04:13] <KT5TK> kind of
[04:14] <KT5TK> Just the Android photos are a block by themselves
[04:14] <nigelvh> Ah.
[04:14] <nigelvh> Looks like you used one of the MX145/146s for APRS?
[04:15] <nigelvh> Or a tracker
[04:15] <KT5TK> Yes, that was my previous design. There are 3 GoPro videos at the very end.
[04:15] <nigelvh> Another photo's caption says the Baofeng was for APRS.
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[04:15] <KT5TK> That was another Argentdata Tracker that I built earlier
[04:16] <KT5TK> Two packages => two trackers
[04:16] <nigelvh> Ah
[04:16] <KT5TK> In case they get separated
[04:16] <nigelvh> Good plan
[04:16] <KT5TK> There were two more trackers in Andy's packages
[04:17] <nigelvh> Similarly a good plan
[04:17] <KT5TK> One old KPC3 and one Tint Tracker
[04:17] <nigelvh> I've had enough of them fail, or if they dont fail still get lost that more trackers is always better.
[04:18] <KT5TK> in deed. two of them failed on the way
[04:18] <KT5TK> Only 2 transmitted down to the impact
[04:19] <nigelvh> Yeah. Most of the time we have some success, but this time we had three trackers on the balloon, and all of them failed at various points in the flight, so we lost that one.
[04:19] <nigelvh> "this" being the most recent time. A few months ago.
[04:20] <KT5TK> Damn Aliens
[04:20] <nigelvh> Exactly
[04:21] <nigelvh> We had two of the transmitters essentially die simultaneously on the way up, and on the way down the video transmitter (with gps overlay) died too.
[04:21] <nigelvh> All with separate packages, power, gps, antennas, everything.
[04:22] <KT5TK> Preparing for Alaska already btw
[04:22] <nigelvh> I figured so.
[04:22] <nigelvh> So you're planning to launch up there then?
[04:22] <KT5TK> I have some Mylar balloons
[04:23] <KT5TK> If we can get some lift gas, we may try a pico
[04:23] <nigelvh> Fun stuff.
[04:23] <KT5TK> Geting Helium may not be trivial
[04:24] <nigelvh> Indeed
[04:24] <nigelvh> Anyway, it's time for me to hit the hay. Have yourself a nice evening!
[04:24] <KT5TK> But a mylar doesn't take up much space in the luggage
[04:25] <KT5TK> Yes, Will do some more things on Pecan later this week
[04:26] <nigelvh> I look forward to it.
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[07:34] <costyn> morning
[07:34] <daveake> Morning. How did the flight go yesterday? I was out most of the day
[07:36] <costyn> daveake: pretty good. except the bumpy (literally) start which took out the camera so we have no inflight pics
[07:36] <daveake> oh :(
[07:36] <costyn> some pics of the launch and recovery yesterday: https://plus.google.com/photos/102956066807503156810/albums/5778446766591651665?banner=pwa
[07:36] <daveake> bumpy as in it hit the ground?
[07:36] <costyn> just means we'll have to try again :)
[07:36] <costyn> yup
[07:36] <daveake> of course!
[07:37] <daveake> windy?
[07:37] <costyn> it was a bit windy and we just did it wrong :)
[07:37] <daveake> Yeah, you need to run into the wind otherwise the payload will swing in an arc that meets the ground :p
[07:37] <costyn> yes, well that is exactly what happeend
[07:37] <daveake> s/into/away from
[07:38] <costyn> well the grass was too high to run very fast
[07:38] <costyn> we should have just let up the balloon first
[07:38] <costyn> but we didn't think it through
[07:38] <daveake> It's amazing how horizontal the line can be in a strong wind
[07:38] <costyn> yea https://plus.google.com/photos/102956066807503156810/albums/5778446766591651665/5778447959814605538?banner=pwa
[07:39] <daveake> Sometimes you just have to wait for the wind to settle a bit, then run as fast as you can with the wind allowing the balloon to get more height
[07:39] <costyn> good god it was so hot and humid out there yesterday
[07:39] <UpuWork> that came back with alot of latex
[07:39] <costyn> yea :)
[07:39] <costyn> looked like pretty much all of it
[07:40] <daveake> You had a car; drive that down the field :D
[07:40] <daveake> (not serious)
[07:40] <costyn> ehehe
[07:40] <costyn> someone suggested that yesterday as well :)
[07:42] <daveake> Example of how to do it - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YM-29qVwGns&list=UUqu2gUbNzBRzb2Ejn5XtC1w&index=5&feature=plcp
[07:42] <daveake> That's Dave number10 btw :)
[07:42] <costyn> yes, that would've worked if we had gloves :)
[07:43] <daveake> Yes, another thing to add for next time :)
[07:43] <costyn> but we didn't and it was a very thin kite-rope :)
[07:43] <costyn> yep
[07:43] <costyn> darkside snet me this yseterday http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQGEBL8YQ4M where the launcher lets it up hand over hand
[07:43] <costyn> i'm really bummed though. yesterday was perfect weather, not a cloud in the sky
[07:44] <costyn> view must've been awesome
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[07:47] <daveake> For light payloads, Steve's method is to hold the payload whilst someone else holds the balloon upwind with the line fully extended. Launch balloon --> goes up and over the head of the person holding the payload who then just lets go as the line becomes taut again
[07:48] <number10> thats was cool - petty I didnt get a video of that
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[07:49] <daveake> Yeah, would have been good to have that one recorded
[07:49] <costyn> daveake: that sounds like a good method too
[07:50] <daveake> Not sure I'd want to try it with a heavy payload though
[07:50] <costyn> still chance of bumpy takeoff?
[07:51] <costyn> and from what weight does a 'heavy' payload start
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[07:55] <daveake> Probably anything with a camera
[07:55] <griffonbot> Received email: Costyn van Dongen "[UKHAS] Re: Launch announcement: Hyperion (Netherlands)"
[07:55] <costyn> ok
[07:57] <daveake> 2kg neck lift on a 600g payload? That's quite a lot!
[07:57] <costyn> yes
[07:57] <costyn> well calculated neck lift was about 1700g, and I really didn't want a floater :)
[07:57] <daveake> :)
[07:58] <costyn> didn't want to have to message OZ1SKY to go and find my payload in Denmark :)
[07:58] <daveake> :)
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[07:59] <number10> you could see the payload bounce viewing the live stream
[08:00] <costyn> number10: :)
[08:00] <costyn> number10: yea it was cool of Elmar to set that up, he had all sorts of goodies with him
[08:01] <costyn> I'd invited him to come watch the launch but he ended up helping in all sorts of aspects
[08:03] <costyn> do you guys know why in the server export of the payload strings received by the tracker server some strings appear to be almost duplicates?
[08:03] <daveake> I think more people should do the live streaming. Helps the listeners feel more involved.
[08:03] <costyn> $$HYPERION,359,11:04:00,52.2896,+6.2524,34665,9,6,451,-6,-1,-5*CF56
[08:03] <costyn> $$HYPERION,360,11:04:00,52.2896,+6.2524,34665,9,6,438,-5,-1,-5*F355
[08:03] <costyn> software bug
[08:03] <costyn> ?
[08:03] <daveake> yup
[08:04] <costyn> funny, pressure and temp change, but not timestamp and coordinates. so gps data hasn't been updated looksl ike
[08:04] <daveake> For some reason your tracker isn't picking up a new GPS position
[08:05] <costyn> ok will have a look; I used a lot of jcoxon's code for my tracker; maybe he's found and updated his code for ATLAS
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[08:17] <UpuWork> costyn could you fill in the following page when you get a moment pls :
[08:17] <UpuWork> http://ukhas.org.uk/general:flight_data
[08:17] <costyn> yes
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[08:25] <costyn> daveake: somehow i managed to get the neck-lift just right for the ascent rate of 6 that I wanted :)
[08:26] <costyn> UpuWork: updated
[08:26] <daveake> You're suggesting it was luck? :)
[08:27] <UpuWork> thansk costyn
[08:27] <costyn> daveake: yes
[08:27] <costyn> cause the scales I had at home weren't very good (going to buy a digital one) and during filling and trying to see if the balloon was lifting the weights I had no idea what I was doing :)
[08:28] <daveake> :)
[08:28] <daveake> I've bought some cheap digital scales to put in the launch kit, because I know that otherwise I will leave the kitchen ones behind one day :D
[08:29] <costyn> hehehe
[08:30] <number10> ultimate chase car? http://vans.autotrader.co.uk/used-vans/land-rover/other/land-rover-td5-cherry-picker-leatherhead-vfpa-8aba6ab939013c33013920c494ed6681
[08:31] <costyn> daveake: but the burst calc said I should've used 2289g neck-lift to attain 6m/s
[08:31] <daveake> number10 When are you buying it?
[08:31] <UpuWork> for daveake number10
[08:31] <costyn> time to burst was pretty accurate too; 104 actual, 100 predicted
[08:31] <costyn> lol @ cherrypicker :)
[08:32] <number10> lol, I think not high enough for daveakes trees - I found one a little cheaper http://www.neneoverland.co.uk/4x4defendertippers/4x4defendertippers_dropsidesV627OGC.htm
[08:32] <daveake> Ideal launch platform for when it's windy :D
[08:33] <costyn> yea, no probs with payloads hitting the ground
[08:33] <costyn> man I am so not in work mentality this morning
[08:33] <daveake> That will last all day
[08:33] <daveake> At least
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[08:34] <number10> daveake: I wonder if those people in oxford would mind you driving one of those across their tennis court
[08:34] <daveake> I'm sure it would be fine :p
[08:34] <costyn> :)
[08:34] <craag> Cherrypicker - doubles as mast+rotator, just attach a yagi to the bucket and extend upwards!
[08:34] <daveake> Cost of cherry picker: £12,000
[08:35] <daveake> Cost of lawn damage: £2000?
[08:35] <daveake> Cost of payload: £50
[08:35] <UpuWork> jsut take a shot gun and shot it down
[08:35] <number10> yes, but its a hobby - so you cant uses tose sort of costings
[08:35] <number10> those
[08:36] <daveake> Obviously Vulcans don't do hobbies
[08:37] <costyn> hehe
[08:37] <costyn> stage <insert high number here> of HAB
[08:38] <daveake> I think my list is going to be out of date soon :)
[08:40] <costyn> daveake: howcome buzz7 had such a low burst altitude?
[08:41] <daveake> Seems to happen with the 1600 Hwoyees - sometimes they burst quite early. I've had a couple do that; Steve has had a couple; Mick (Mondo) has had one do it
[08:41] <costyn> ok
[08:42] <daveake> It seems to me that if they get past 27km they're fine
[08:42] <costyn> Noticed mine had a patch where a hole was repaired
[08:42] <daveake> New one on me. You got a photo of that? Steve might be interested.
[08:43] <costyn> nope
[08:43] <costyn> although I might be able to find it back on the remains Istill have lying in a crate in my shed (looks like a deep sea creature)
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[08:43] <daveake> :)
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[08:56] <cuddykid> has anyone tried this kit on a UK flight? http://www.ubnt.com/airmax#dish after reading the dropbox launch it looks rather good
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[09:44] <kokey> heh, seen jcg's rover challenge?
[09:46] <UpuWork> link ?
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[09:49] <kokey> http://blog.jgc.org/2012/08/why-dont-they-just.html
[09:51] <eroomde> that's the kind of thing people need to be doing
[09:51] <eroomde> highly +1 from me
[09:51] <costyn> sounds like fun, if a *lot* of work :)
[09:52] <daveake> Hmmm
[09:52] <daveake> Interesting
[09:52] <costyn> not something for 1 person to undertake, you'd need a team effort here
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[09:52] <eroomde> i've always harboured a desire to do a precision parafoil drop from a hab into a nasty semi-active/toxic volcano crater
[09:52] <Maxell> h/whois zeusbot
[09:52] <daveake> I'll do the launch party BBQ. So that's my contribution sorted :D
[09:53] <eroomde> nice job Maxell
[09:53] <eroomde> it's the channel bot
[09:53] <Maxell> Oh hi
[09:53] <costyn> :)
[09:53] <eroomde> costyn: i reckon 1 keen person could make a go of it
[09:53] <Maxell> yeah, and the name zeus triggered me to whois is :P
[09:53] <costyn> eroomde: if they had lots of spare time and money :)
[09:54] <Maxell> How come there is so much 'activity' in The Netherlands? Is it so populair there?
[09:54] <costyn> Maxell: where do you see all this activity?
[09:54] <eroomde> costyn: usually one or the other
[09:55] <Laurenceb_> its flat
[09:55] <costyn> Maxell: we had a first launch since months
[09:55] <eroomde> if you have both then you probably live on an island and are too busy drinking champagne
[09:55] <Laurenceb_> so they cant just climb up a hill
[09:55] <Maxell> http://spacenear.us/tracker/
[09:55] <costyn> Maxell: ah, ok, that was yesterday
[09:55] <costyn> Maxell: 1 balloon with 2 chase cars
[09:56] <costyn> eroomde: hehehe
[09:57] <Maxell> But whats up with all the amateur radio? I see more icons there.
[09:57] <eroomde> 10 hab points if you use a skycrane
[09:57] <eroomde> Maxell: those are listeners
[09:57] <eroomde> people who have the dl-fldigi installed and running
[09:57] <eroomde> to receive balloon flights
[09:57] <costyn> Maxell: yea wel PD3EM posted something on a forum beforehand I think. that's why we had a lot of listeners there yesterday
[09:57] <eroomde> number of listeners >> number of flyers
[09:58] <Maxell> So the icons on the map are not permanent station?
[09:58] <costyn> no
[09:59] <eroomde> they will dissappear over the next few hours
[09:59] <costyn> purged after 24h?
[09:59] <Maxell> Oh right. That explains it.
[09:59] <eroomde> well, just timeout
[09:59] <eroomde> unless people keep it all switched on and running
[10:00] <daveake> Tend to get purged a day or two after launch, or when a new launch is imminent. Not automatically
[10:00] <eroomde> listeners i think he means
[10:00] <daveake> oh
[10:00] <daveake> Ignore me then :)
[10:00] <eroomde> or maybe not
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[10:06] <Maxell> /ignore daveake
[10:06] <Maxell> ;)
[10:07] <daveake> Yeah, the little aerial mast icons for listeners do time out, as eroomde said.
[10:07] <daveake> The flight and chase car data doesn't
[10:08] <eroomde> curiosi-hab
[10:08] <eroomde> i might make it 900kg too
[10:09] <fsphil> I'm totally up for launching an RC car on a flight
[10:09] <eroomde> just to upset the people who get upset when payloads exceed 500g
[10:09] <fsphil> but how do you talk to it
[10:09] <fsphil> hab-relay?
[10:09] <jgrahamc> An AMSAT?
[10:09] <daveake> I like the idea of doing an RC boat, replacing the R bit with some onboard guidance to the nearest shore
[10:09] <fsphil> satellite packet
[10:10] <fsphil> hmm
[10:10] <eroomde> you might be able to use amateur radio on a rover actually yeah
[10:10] <fsphil> might not have enough bandwidth to do images
[10:10] <eroomde> so you could relay via ao-51
[10:10] <eroomde> oh infact
[10:10] <eroomde> how wide is ao-51?
[10:10] <eroomde> because i've just thought of something super naughty that would work a treat
[10:10] <fsphil> I can read your mind
[10:11] <kokey> eroomde: the tricky bit, I think, is communication over long distance from the surface
[10:11] <eroomde> if ao-51 is wide enough, spread spectrum through it, right under their noses
[10:11] <eroomde> fsphil: yes i suspected u could
[10:11] <kokey> eroomde: HF would be ok, but it would be nice to have something up in the air to use as a relay
[10:11] <fsphil> HF from a small RC car would be tricky
[10:11] <kokey> I'm talking about the rover challenge, btw
[10:11] <jgrahamc> Isn't AO-51 dead?
[10:11] <eroomde> oh is it?
[10:11] <eroomde> i've not listened for about 3 yrs
[10:12] <fsphil> wasn't it FM anyway?
[10:12] <jgrahamc> Apparently it died November 2011: http://www.amsat.org/amsat-new/echo/CTNews.php
[10:12] <eroomde> oh but there are ways and there are was
[10:12] <fsphil> there are still a few SSB sats up there so the idea is still good
[10:12] <kokey> oh now I just noticed everyone else is, heh
[10:13] <fsphil> rfm22b hab relay would be good for getting some two-way data after landing
[10:13] <eroomde> failure to short is a Not Cool failure mode
[10:13] <UpuWork> jgrahamc I vote using a BigTrak :)
[10:13] <UpuWork> with a robotic finger to program it
[10:13] <eroomde> jgrahamc: did you see my comment?
[10:13] <jgrahamc> eroomde: on my blog?
[10:13] <BrainDamage> damn, mine is sitting in pieces after my newphews inherited it
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[10:14] <BrainDamage> I was planning to replace the flashing light with a real lazor, I was thinking 10W for starters :p
[10:14] <kokey> a nucleur power source, drop it in a desert... nothing can go wrong with that
[10:14] <UpuWork> and lasers
[10:14] <fsphil> sparkfun had a great rover base
[10:14] <fsphil> sadly can't look it up due to suppose to be working
[10:15] <eroomde> also your post amused me because the last time I had a drink with Tom Rivellini (curiosity EDL lead mechanical engineer, but not elvis) he said that nothing gave him a stronger sense of foreboding at a Q&A than 'why don't you just...?'
[10:15] <fsphil> lol
[10:15] <jgrahamc> eroomde: that's brilliant. It's the 'just' that's important. "Why don't they X?" is a reasonable question. But 'just'...
[10:15] <UpuWork> the answer is "...understand engineering" to the person who asks
[10:16] <kokey> why didn't you just order one from tamiya
[10:16] <fsphil> what sort of sensors could you have?
[10:16] <fsphil> I'd just have a camera on it, but that's just me :)
[10:16] <eroomde> yes i guess it'd be more like sojourner
[10:17] <eroomde> engineering demo
[10:17] <eroomde> very little science
[10:17] <jgrahamc> Good to have basic environmental sensors + cameras.
[10:17] <kokey> i think a rover inside of a ball, so it can move around at least
[10:17] <fsphil> a ball would get stuck very quickly
[10:17] <fsphil> unless it was big
[10:17] <jgrahamc> I've messed around with ball robots. The mathematics isn't that hard, but they get dirty.
[10:17] <eroomde> but yes i would like to request bonus points if the landing is rocket assisted
[10:17] <fsphil> eroomde, compressed air
[10:17] <eroomde> fsphil: compressed hydrazine
[10:18] <fsphil> +2
[10:18] <jgrahamc> Well, if you're going to do that we might just as well go to Mars. How hard can it be?
[10:18] <eroomde> i have hydrazine at work infact, i'm quite sure they wouldn;t notice if a bit went missing
[10:18] <fsphil> you don't want to be starting fires though :)
[10:18] <eroomde> jgrahamc: well indeed, that was my previous job
[10:18] <eroomde> fsphil: landing in a volcano...
[10:19] <fsphil> I was thinking yorkshire
[10:19] <jgrahamc> Yes, I like eroomde's suggestion of a volcano landing.
[10:19] <fsphil> as it's easy to fly to from here
[10:19] <kokey> that would be quite a feat
[10:19] <eroomde> well it's big and obvious and difficult to get to for humans
[10:19] <UpuWork> Bradford ?
[10:19] <eroomde> and the pictures would be fun
[10:19] <fsphil> "Northern Ireland scientist discovers field with sheep"
[10:20] <kokey> the sahara is close enough and tricky enough
[10:20] <kokey> and interesting enough to
[10:20] <kokey> too
[10:20] <fsphil> an advantage being that if it broke, someone could recover it and find out why
[10:20] <fsphil> be a good test anyway
[10:20] <daveake> I need to design one that escapes from trees
[10:20] <eroomde> box-only cutdown
[10:20] <kokey> daveake: I think the rocket lander can help with that
[10:20] <eroomde> i'm sure that would help
[10:20] <daveake> :)
[10:20] <daveake> Oh no. The designer of the 555 has died.
[10:21] <kokey> just burn down the tree
[10:21] <eroomde> but seriously, just precisionish landing from hab would be a feat
[10:21] <kokey> darn, that sucks
[10:21] <eroomde> if someone could do a parafoil
[10:21] <daveake> We all owe a debt to him :)
[10:21] <fsphil> horrible timing
[10:21] <UpuWork> I made an auto waggling joy stick using a 555
[10:21] <jgrahamc> I thought the folks from The Register were planning a balloon + rocket + 'low orbit' + precision landing
[10:21] <kokey> hopefully he left his great new design behind like steve jobs did
[10:21] <daveake> I wondered if he was in hospital for a while, in a stable condition
[10:21] <eroomde> jgrahamc: 'planning' I think
[10:21] <daveake> Life timed out
[10:21] <fsphil> to soon
[10:21] <UpuWork> jgrahamc yeah they are planning all that but have experience of none of it
[10:22] <UpuWork> btw they coined LOHAN and then worked out what the letters meant afterwards
[10:22] <daveake> :)
[10:22] <fsphil> that's always a great way to start a project
[10:22] <fsphil> *hadie*
[10:22] <UpuWork> Neil is coming to the conference you can chat to him then :)
[10:22] <UpuWork> I'm still trying to work out what AVA stands for
[10:23] <fsphil> swift doesn't stand for anything thankfully
[10:23] <eroomde> soft ware in floaty thing
[10:23] <fsphil> I just liked the name
[10:23] <UpuWork> lol
[10:23] <fsphil> hah
[10:23] <UpuWork> thats it
[10:23] <fsphil> damn
[10:23] <UpuWork> right there
[10:23] <jgrahamc> I was a bit rude to that guy from The Register when he popped up, but the 'low orbit' stuff annoyed me.
[10:23] <daveake> Not his fault
[10:23] <eroomde> jgrahamc: don't worry, i'm on the list too
[10:24] <eroomde> so your brusqueness (my preferred term) won't be noticed
[10:24] <UpuWork> it was the readers who suggested that and it was in irony as they got alot of stick for the previous "near space" so I think it was done with a helping of tougue in cheek
[10:24] <UpuWork> I know its technically wrong but "high up" doesn't generate the same headlines as "near space"
[10:24] <UpuWork> low orbit is actually more accurate than near space
[10:24] <fsphil> the roof of the world
[10:25] <UpuWork> very very low orbit
[10:25] <jgrahamc> Without an orbit
[10:25] <fsphil> not really an orbit though
[10:25] <eroomde> Sputnik launched in 1957, the first amsat was 1961
[10:25] <UpuWork> lol
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[10:25] <eroomde> that's very impressive
[10:25] <jgrahamc> That is impressive
[10:25] <fsphil> orbits are driven by gravity
[10:25] <kokey> so is wind
[10:26] <kokey> ;-)
[10:26] <eroomde> orbital velocity is precisely a function of gravity
[10:26] <eroomde> wind isn;t
[10:26] <fsphil> not all wind :)
[10:26] <UpuWork> I just hope it doesn't attract a new wave of idiots
[10:26] <UpuWork> eroomde fodder
[10:26] <fsphil> what colour rocket?
[10:27] <kokey> should have stripes on it
[10:27] <fsphil> and fins
[10:27] <daveake> Iz Pi good for me rocket?
[10:27] <Randomskk> haha oh boy.
[10:27] <kokey> plz send me source codez
[10:27] <UpuWork> "teh" source codez
[10:28] <eroomde> it's interesting to see how the beginner questions involve
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[10:28] <eroomde> evolve
[10:28] <eroomde> in 2006 it was BA (before arduino)
[10:28] <eroomde> and people came on and said
[10:28] <eroomde> 'ok'
[10:28] <daveake> good start
[10:28] <eroomde> 'i've bought an atmega16 from frenell'
[10:28] <eroomde> 'how do i put the linux in it?'
[10:28] <daveake> lol
[10:28] <kokey> in 2006 I was thinking of using a GP2X as my flight computer
[10:28] <UpuWork> so you've always had stupid questions ?
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[10:29] <kokey> I think people were thinking of using the gumstix units then too
[10:29] <eroomde> the ratio of less-well-informed to well-informed questions is significantly worse (leading adjective) than in 2006/7
[10:29] <eroomde> but they certainly did exist
[10:29] <fsphil> people have used gumstix
[10:30] <fsphil> I do believe jcoxon flew one that did sstv
[10:30] <eroomde> yes well the first ever uk hab flights wre ejcoxon on a gumstix
[10:30] <daveake> I was going to use a PIC but settled on the Arduino instead
[10:30] <kokey> ah yes, I remember that
[10:30] <fsphil> those where before my hab-time
[10:30] <kokey> daveake: yeah I was planning on msp430s but also gone arduino
[10:30] <UpuWork> Suprised PIC's are more prevalent
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[10:31] <number10> daveake: you just have to do a pic - all the top blokes use them ;)
[10:31] <daveake> :)
[10:31] <UpuWork> aren't
[10:31] <daveake> I guessed
[10:32] <kokey> what happened to that canadian guy, the one who did the glider, that got lost?
[10:32] <kokey> his projects were amazing
[10:32] <daveake> So is anyone building a 6502 tracker, or somethine else of that age?
[10:32] <UpuWork> Was that Marshall ?
[10:32] <jgrahamc> I;m not sure you need rockets for a precision landing on earth. If we drop with a balloon the terminal velocity won't be that high.
[10:32] <UpuWork> I want to make a 6502 tracker
[10:32] <eroomde> you absolutely don't
[10:32] <eroomde> need rockets
[10:32] <eroomde> purely for shiggles
[10:32] <kokey> daveake: I was thinking of an ez80 one perhaps
[10:32] <UpuWork> jgrahamc should have some small rockets on jsut for show though
[10:32] <Randomskk> but 'need' is the operative word
[10:33] <eroomde> kokey: he's dropped of the internet
[10:33] <eroomde> but his project was amazing
[10:33] <eroomde> that was what got me in to hab
[10:33] <fsphil> daveake: I'm 'planning' a 6510 tracker but not sure it'll get to far past planning
[10:33] <daveake> The Canadian glider?
[10:33] <daveake> 6510 is a 6502 variant?
[10:33] <fsphil> it is
[10:33] <UpuWork> yeah
[10:33] <fsphil> 6502 with some extra I/O specific to the C64
[10:33] <eroomde> jgrahamc: but equally you could just not use parachute at all and descend at the rover's terminal velocity
[10:33] <daveake> Ah ok
[10:33] <eroomde> then fire the rckets up at 200m agl
[10:34] <UpuWork> set fire to the field you land in
[10:34] <UpuWork> you'd be able to find it easily
[10:34] <eroomde> volcano
[10:34] <UpuWork> sorry volcano
[10:34] <jgrahamc> Yes, I suppose that would be cool.
[10:34] <kokey> eroomde: I hope he got snapped up by a good company that makes him do that sort of thing for a living
[10:34] <eroomde> i was anticipating some sort of travel budget
[10:34] <UpuWork> Ardnamurchan Last eruption
[10:34] <UpuWork> - c.55 million years ago
[10:34] <eroomde> as part of the stipend from the competition organiser
[10:35] <kokey> yeah, I do like the idea of a C64 in space
[10:35] <UpuWork> the power supply might be an issue kokey :)
[10:35] <fsphil> I've got a C64 that won't boot, I think the CPU is fine though
[10:35] <jgrahamc> Iceland
[10:35] <jgrahamc> Iceland is covered in volcanos.
[10:35] <eroomde> exactly
[10:35] <eroomde> and it look like mars
[10:35] <UpuWork> Iceland is amazing
[10:35] <costyn> not too far away
[10:35] <eroomde> looks*
[10:35] <eroomde> and everything is cheap
[10:35] <UpuWork> that bit isn't true
[10:35] <costyn> UpuWork: +1, been there in March, it really is another world :)
[10:36] <kokey> iceland is far away if measured by airline flight prices
[10:36] <BrainDamage> so it's like marse
[10:36] <BrainDamage> -e
[10:36] <fsphil> canary islands is like mars
[10:36] <UpuWork> https://picasaweb.google.com/118244444241111963790/200409Iceland#5379093899336421186
[10:36] <BrainDamage> you only have money for one attempt, and you can't afford to make mistakes
[10:36] <UpuWork> thats my wife next to a piece of B-52 bomber
[10:37] <fsphil> is/are
[10:37] <UpuWork> my wife isn't the ginger one btw
[10:37] <fsphil> parts of it are just red rocks and dust to the horizon
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[10:37] <BrainDamage> your wife is the piece of the b52 bomber?
[10:37] <kokey> I've been in the namibian desert once
[10:37] <costyn> fsphil: the wind at the canarieswill make it extra challenging though
[10:37] <kokey> flew to the walfish bay airport
[10:38] <kokey> it was like landing on another planet
[10:38] <kokey> amazing
[10:38] <jgrahamc> Also, Iceland is sparsely populated.
[10:38] <kokey> you step off the plane, the sun is bright, you stand on the runway and see how the runway becomes smooth sand and then dunes
[10:38] <costyn> kokey: sounds pretty cool
[10:39] <UpuWork> we had some people in Iceland who were going to launch a payload and we were going to collect it in Scotland
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[10:39] <kokey> namibia also sports friendly people and german beer, so it's great
[10:39] <jgrahamc> Also, would guess that there must be some nice Icelandic hams who'd be interested in relayig.
[10:41] <eroomde> indeed
[10:41] <eroomde> also bonus points please for in-mission software updates
[10:41] <jgrahamc> Yes!
[10:42] <BrainDamage> what can possibly go wrong with OTA updates?
[10:42] <eroomde> this is going to end up as complicated as dressage
[10:42] <costyn> haha
[10:42] <BrainDamage> for extra challenges, you can't use a double firmware or even a bootloader
[10:42] <BrainDamage> the program has to replace itself
[10:43] <eroomde> surely the radio-to-writting-stuff-to-a-memory-address bit counts as a bootloader?
[10:44] <costyn> BrainDamage: now you're just being silly
[10:44] <BrainDamage> as long as the piece of software that does the flashing is replaced as well by the firmware update, I'm fine with it, that's what I mean with no bootloader
[10:44] <BrainDamage> this way if flashing goes wrong, it's bricked
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[10:45] <eroomde> that sounds impossible
[10:45] <eroomde> well, i suspose you can do atomic writes of identical instructions onto the bootloaders own code space
[10:46] <eroomde> but... masochism
[10:46] <Randomskk> but it'd be stupid >_>
[10:46] <BrainDamage> it's the whole point, masochism :p
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[11:15] <kokey> BrainDamage how about you wire wrap logic gates for your flight computer
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[11:37] <jgrahamc> If we dropped a lander on Iceland (The Icelander?) then it could do some volcanic 'science' by looking at dust in the atmosphere and perhaps detect levels of sulphur.
[11:37] <Randomskk> icelander, fantastic
[11:37] <Randomskk> land it on a glacier mayber
[11:39] <fsphil> solar power might be tricky if there's a lot of dust
[11:39] <fsphil> although there's no real alternative
[11:41] <kokey> nuclear fuel
[11:41] <fsphil> good luck getting that and permission to launch it on a balloon into a volcano :)
[11:41] <kokey> at least you're landing it in iceland and not north africa
[11:43] <kokey> what data rates can one expect to get on HF?
[11:43] <jgrahamc> Nice thing about Iceland is it's isolated so would give some of the feel of landing on another planet where the thing is too remote to go fix.
[11:44] <fsphil> depends on the power available
[11:45] <fsphil> I wouldn't imagine it would be able to do more than 300 bps
[11:45] <fsphil> but HF is weird
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[11:46] <kokey> just wondering, that post landing, it can slowly send back images from the trip there
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[11:46] <fsphil> for thumbnail-size images
[11:46] <fsphil> hmm
[11:47] <fsphil> quite a while
[11:47] <kokey> 30k image, should take an hour?
[11:48] <kokey> 30*1024*8/100=2457
[11:48] <fsphil> 15 or 16 minutes assuming good conditions and 300 bps
[11:48] <kokey> add lots of FEC to it
[11:48] <fsphil> yes
[11:48] <kokey> I'm thinking 100bps
[11:48] <fsphil> I'd go for a smaller image at 100 bps
[11:48] <fsphil> although there is time unlike a hab flight
[11:48] <kokey> I think one image per hour is actually pretty useful
[11:48] <fsphil> yea
[11:49] <fsphil> I've done images over 50 baud
[11:49] <kokey> though not sure how much you can tx with batteries charging from solar
[11:49] <fsphil> like watching a C64 game load from tape
[11:49] <kokey> I started my online life at 1200bps
[11:49] <kokey> and watching that was pretty slow already
[11:49] <fsphil> nice
[11:50] <fsphil> my first modem was 11k or something simmilar
[11:50] <fsphil> can't remember now
[11:50] <jgrahamc> Apparently there are two 2m band repeaters in Reykjavik
[11:50] <fsphil> volcano does have the advantage of being high up
[11:50] <fsphil> wonder if it could hit an APRS igate
[11:51] <fsphil> that would be quite speedy compared with HF
[11:52] <jgrahamc> APRS would be quite nice
[11:53] <jgrahamc> Two way as well
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[11:57] <eroomde> vhf might have trouble getting out of a crater though
[11:58] <Randomskk> free space laser to an orbiting satellite
[11:58] <daveake> We should get it to run an IRC bot
[11:58] <daveake> Volcano_Lander has joined #highaltitude
[11:58] <daveake> hello
[11:58] <daveake> XD
[11:59] <jgrahamc> I was sort of hoping for something in the bounds of reality. Perhaps we just go EME?
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[12:00] <fsphil> HF and VHF will do fine
[12:01] <fsphil> VHF might be able to hit a satellite
[12:01] <jgrahamc> I wonder what sort of electrical/magnetic interference you get from a volcano.
[12:01] <fsphil> I imagine there's quite a lot of static
[12:01] <fsphil> there's some great images and video of lightning around a volcano
[12:02] <fsphil> during an eruption to be fair
[12:02] <fsphil> if that happens, static will be the least of the problems
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[12:04] <fsphil> no way to test that
[12:05] <fsphil> I guess you could drop a really simple beacon first
[12:05] <fsphil> see if that can be heard
[12:10] <eroomde> hf would probably get out fine
[12:10] <eroomde> maybe try 50Mhz
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[12:15] <jgrahamc> Also, Iceland has interesting amounts of sunlight (such as minutes in the winter) so the Icelander would have to over winter in some low/no power mode.
[12:16] <eroomde> at least it shouldn't irreperably freeze
[12:17] <jgrahamc> According to Wikipedia it's not that cold (on average).
[12:17] <jgrahamc> The southerly lowlands of the island average around 0 °C (32 °F) in winter, while the highlands tend to average around 10 °C (14 °F).
[12:17] <jgrahamc> At least in the south
[12:17] <Randomskk> I wonder what the legal standing would be.
[12:17] <Randomskk> it would actually be hugely cool to pull off
[12:17] <Randomskk> though the lander would have to be pretty lightweight to reliably carry it with a HAB
[12:18] <Randomskk> then again if it's not mobile there's no reason it couldn't be reasonably lightweight.
[12:18] <eroomde> well, 5kg on a hab is easy enough
[12:18] <Randomskk> you could have deployable solar panels
[12:18] <eroomde> and tat's a lot of rover
[12:18] <Randomskk> rovers need a lot more power
[12:18] <Randomskk> and smarts
[12:18] <eroomde> yes indeed
[12:18] <jgrahamc> I'm going to guess that given that Iceland is one of the least populated places on earth the legal sutation is easier than in the UK
[12:18] <Randomskk> I think you'd definitely start with an immobile lander
[12:18] <Randomskk> jgrahamc: yes I imagine so :P
[12:18] <eroomde> but 20cm/day drive :)
[12:18] <fsphil> not so smart, we'd have quicker communications
[12:19] <Randomskk> fsphil: but not hugely reliable. you /could/ purely remote control it I supopse
[12:19] <Randomskk> but the imagery being returned would be so slow I don't think that'd be sensible
[12:19] <Randomskk> I guess we have GPS
[12:19] <Randomskk> so you could waypoint it
[12:19] <jgrahamc> I would go for remote waypoints with a really short distance
[12:19] <Randomskk> yea.
[12:19] <eroomde> i agree with that
[12:19] <jgrahamc> Send back a picture and then we say: ok, turn header X and move Y cm
[12:19] <eroomde> just set it to do some wheel odometry
[12:20] <eroomde> up to 30cm say
[12:20] <jgrahamc> Yes
[12:20] <eroomde> then take a photo of your surroundings and wait to see what to do next
[12:20] <jgrahamc> Pretend that we don't have GPS
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[12:21] <eroomde> 1 stepper motor per wheel
[12:21] <eroomde> we could realistically recreate sojourner, I think
[12:21] <Laurenceb> https://www.olimex.com/dev/stm32-p407.html
[12:21] <jgrahamc> Also perhaps some way for it to right itself if it gets blown over.
[12:21] <UpuWork> schreeeemeck!
[12:21] <eroomde> you got their fast
[12:21] <eroomde> there*
[12:23] <jgrahamc> Not sure what the lander would do with 128x128 LCD display
[12:23] <eroomde> sojourner did about 100m over 80 days
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[12:27] <eroomde> static lander with a steerable yagi to downlink during amsat passes
[12:27] <eroomde> maybe
[12:27] <eroomde> save the hf for direct-to-earth comms
[12:28] <fsphil> sojourner was programmed to circle the lander if it lost comms
[12:28] <eroomde> a lander and a rover
[12:28] <eroomde> there we go
[12:28] <eroomde> and airbags
[12:28] <fsphil> too far :)
[12:28] <fsphil> a parachute would probably be enough
[12:29] <eroomde> so it bounces nicely down the walls of the volcano crater right into a pool of lava
[12:29] <fsphil> we at least have a nice atmosphere we can use
[12:29] <jgrahamc> A parachute won't ensure that it's the right way up
[12:29] <eroomde> things have to have gone pretty badly for it to not be the right way up :)
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[12:30] <fsphil> pathfinder had a nice solution to that, no matter what way it opened up it would always end upright
[12:30] <jgrahamc> I meant because of bouncing
[12:30] <Darkside> good-day all
[12:30] <Randomskk> quadcopter for landing
[12:30] <Randomskk> :P
[12:31] <fsphil> afternoon Darkside
[12:31] <eroomde> sure, although one can mitigate against bouncing (sufficient bouncing to tip it over anyway)
[12:31] <eroomde> but equally yes, a deployable radio mast could serve dual purpose as a kind of self-righting arm
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[12:45] <eroomde> another good thing about this project for hab is that it would push people to start properly designing parachute systems
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[12:45] <eroomde> thinks like oscillation on the way down will suddenly matter
[12:46] <eroomde> likewise glide angles
[12:47] <eroomde> calculation of landing dynamics in general
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[12:49] <Randomskk> also it would push people towards doing an interesting thing
[12:49] <Randomskk> managing collaboration would be a total pain though.
[12:49] <Randomskk> way worse than just normal primary/secondary investigators on a space agency payload
[12:49] <jgrahamc> Just pick a small team of people with different skills and don't open it up to everyone.
[12:49] <Randomskk> true I guess
[12:50] <Randomskk> the problem is that even when you do that
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[12:50] <Randomskk> you struggle to make volunteers on open source hardware/software projects able to commit to deadlines
[12:50] <Randomskk> or, well
[12:50] <Randomskk> generally
[12:50] <jgrahamc> Agreed
[12:50] <Randomskk> it's not like UKHAS haven't tried collaboration projects before
[12:51] <Randomskk> though this is perhaps the most ambitious :P
[12:51] <Randomskk> actually there's another thing here
[12:52] <Randomskk> one argument is to try a simple prototype first
[12:52] <Randomskk> but the one-off expense of going to iceland and running the thing makes it hard to do many of these
[12:52] <Randomskk> there'd be a lot of pressure to make the first one we do be perfect and fully featured
[12:52] <Randomskk> even if that means it never happens :P
[12:52] <eroomde> sounds a bit like a national space program really :)
[12:53] <Randomskk> hehe
[12:53] <Randomskk> or a student space program's certain rockoon project
[12:53] <eroomde> yes indeed. the fixed costs of doing anything at all are 80% the cost of a realistic 100km shot
[12:53] <Randomskk> yea.
[12:53] <Randomskk> that said we could get most of the testing done in the UK
[12:54] <Randomskk> right up to making a second full payload and doing the balloon drop and science
[12:54] <Randomskk> so all that changes is the location
[12:54] <jgrahamc> All the landing stuff could be tested in the UK. The rover itself could be tested.
[12:54] <Randomskk> yea
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[12:55] <jgrahamc> Even, as you say, the complete thing could be tested by landing the rover somewhere from a HAB.
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[12:56] <costyn> perhaps people from outside UKHAS, other amateur groups could be involved
[12:56] <fsphil> I'll try landing an HF beacon in england as a first test :)
[12:57] <Randomskk> costyn: very quick multiplication of the project management and coordination difficulties.
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[13:21] <costyn> I guess so :)
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[13:23] <fsphil> AVA - aeronautical and volcano administration
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[13:25] Action: UpuWork looks at the delay on that
[13:31] <griffonbot> Received email: Peter Browne "[UKHAS] HAM-1"
[13:33] <fsphil> good things come to those who wait. also bad things
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[13:45] <eroomde> there is a company (well, james') black labrador
[13:45] <eroomde> black labrador + EL wire + the dark = tron dog
[13:46] <eroomde> it's really very effective
[13:46] <russss> heh
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[13:49] <jgrahamc> Have you seen the EL wire + bicycle + Muybridge photos of horse motion @ Burning Man?
[13:50] <eroomde> no?
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[13:50] <fsphil> please don't give Disney ideas
[13:50] <jgrahamc> http://www.1reality.org/horseweb/makingTheHorse.html
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[13:52] <eroomde> very nice
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[13:56] <costyn> very cool
[13:57] <costyn> not sure how it works, I can't convert the explanation into images in my head :)
[13:57] Nick change: J0rd4n -> Guest
[14:07] <griffonbot> Received email: Anthony Stirk "[UKHAS] HAB Amp"
[14:15] <DrLuke> so apparently the price for helium is double the price of hydrogen for small quanitities, and 5 times the price of hydrogen for a bigger quantity
[14:16] <Randomskk> yea
[14:16] <Randomskk> hydrogen's quite a lot cheaper
[14:16] <DrLuke> but more dangerous
[14:16] <Randomskk> yes.
[14:16] <DrLuke> but if I ground myself and the gas tank, I should be relatively safe, shouldn't I?
[14:17] <eroomde> relative to what :p
[14:17] <eroomde> but yes i'm sure you'll be fine
[14:17] <Randomskk> DrLuke: ignition can come from a number of sources
[14:17] <Randomskk> like too much sunlight
[14:17] <Randomskk> people have launched with hydrogen before
[14:18] <DrLuke> too much sunlight?
[14:18] <Randomskk> but by and large those are people with some number of helium launches under their belt
[14:18] <Randomskk> who already know what they're doing
[14:18] <DrLuke> I just can't afford the helium
[14:18] <eroomde> i'm going to be contrary and say it doesn't really matter
[14:19] <eroomde> i don;t see that havig launched some balloons before really makes you any more or less likely to damage yourself using hydrogen over helium
[14:19] <Darkside> all it takes is one bit of static
[14:19] <DrLuke> I have anti-static shoes from work
[14:19] <eroomde> no, it probably takes quite a lot actually
[14:20] <DrLuke> So, then, as long as I ground myself and the tank, and don't release it into the air, just into the balloon, I should be fine
[14:22] <eroomde> probably
[14:26] <Laurenceb> keep flamethrowers pointed away from the balloon at all times
[14:27] <Laurenceb> do not inhale hydrogen whilst smoking
[14:27] <Laurenceb> do not use the balloon as a childcare device
[14:28] <jonsowman> perhaps we should update the ukhas guidelines with the above advice
[14:28] <DrLuke> :)
[14:28] <jonsowman> lives may be saves
[14:28] <jonsowman> +d
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[14:29] <eroomde> however, if we don't mention anything about not smoking, the species may be saved
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[14:30] Action: Laurenceb remembers fnoble smoking around HPR reloads :P
[14:32] <eroomde> Laurenceb: i put enough explosives to destroy a small house up the jacksie of an N motor
[14:32] <eroomde> it didn't light
[14:32] <eroomde> they need a hell of a lot to get them going
[14:32] <Laurenceb> did you have a plug in there?
[14:32] <eroomde> yes
[14:32] <Laurenceb> interesting
[14:32] <eroomde> it pinged out with a pop
[14:32] <eroomde> thermite solved the problem
[14:33] <Laurenceb> aiui it needs the heat to diffuse into the top layer of the APCP
[14:33] <Laurenceb> heh
[14:33] <Laurenceb> thermite + plug?
[14:33] <eroomde> yes
[14:33] <Laurenceb> i see
[14:33] <Laurenceb> presumably the heat effected zone needs to be larger than the grain size of the propellant?
[14:33] <eroomde> http://vimeo.com/41698743
[14:34] <Laurenceb> to start the reaction off properly
[14:34] <eroomde> you will hear the ping when the pressure builds up
[14:34] <eroomde> but it still takes a while to generate enough gas to choke
[14:34] <Laurenceb> yeah
[14:34] <costyn> is the bit in the wiki about H2 spontaneously igniting really true? hydrogen cylinders must not be snifted, that is opening the valve momentarily to release small volumes of gas to clear dust from the valve neck, as hydrogen will spontaneously ignite upon release and will burn with an invisible flame.
[14:35] <Laurenceb> plug is too loose maybe?
[14:35] <daveake> costyn That's straight from the BOC safety manual
[14:35] <gonzo_> it's one I HAVE to try
[14:35] <costyn> daveake: I see yes, seems farfetched
[14:36] <eroomde> Laurenceb: no that's an example of it working
[14:36] <Laurenceb> - i know that
[14:36] <eroomde> it doesn;t really matter how loose the plug is provided it does the job of keeping pressure long enough for the propellent to go
[14:36] <Laurenceb> but i mean does the plug come lose before ingition proper?
[14:36] <Laurenceb> yeah
[14:36] <eroomde> it just takes a long time to fill the volume
[14:37] <Laurenceb> hmm
[14:37] <griffonbot> Received email: Steve Aerospace "Re: [UKHAS] HAB Amp"
[14:37] <Laurenceb> eroomde: i was thinking about D motor rockoon ignition
[14:37] <Laurenceb> itll need slip rings i guess
[14:37] <eroomde> costyn: i think the issue is that if you release hydrogen at high pressure to atmosphere, it will go supersonic
[14:37] <eroomde> the point at which it goes supersonic will have a shock
[14:38] <costyn> eroomde: I see. that's starting to make sense
[14:38] <eroomde> where the heat may well be high enough to start a reaction
[14:38] <eroomde> it shouldn't just randomly ignite on its own though
[14:38] <costyn> eroomde: but this wouldn't happen if you let it go through a regulator right?
[14:38] <costyn> so this snifting is opening the valve on the cylinder without a regulator on it
[14:38] <eroomde> shouldn't do no, but i wouldn't want to say for sure without doing all the maths - there are other variables
[14:38] <eroomde> but basically no, just letting it come out of a regulator should be completely fine
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[14:39] <eroomde> and remember it burns when mixed with oxidiser, it won't detonoate as a mono-explosive or anything
[14:39] <costyn> ok, my physics common sense has been restored :)
[14:39] <eroomde> costyn: yes i expect it is specifically refering to straight from the bottle
[14:39] <costyn> yes
[14:40] <fsphil> yea as long as there's no oxygen in the balloon and no leaks, it should be pretty safe
[14:40] <daveake> It is. It's talking about clearing muck from the valve
[14:40] <costyn> eroomde: thanks for the explanation in any case. Gotta go now
[14:40] <costyn> daveake: but in our case we don't really care if there's some dust in the valve, right
[14:41] <costyn> anyways, gtg
[14:41] <eroomde> costyn: we deliberately release very high pressure hydrogen
[14:41] <eroomde> and mix it with air
[14:41] <eroomde> but it still needs to be lit somehow
[14:41] <eroomde> http://www.flickr.com/photos/69676024@N07/6334545713/lightbox/
[14:41] <eroomde> that is specifically air and hydrogen, testing air breathing rockets
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[14:54] <Laurenceb> eroomde: any idea of the current/voltage required to fire one of the Estes igniters?
[14:54] <eroomde> not a min threshold
[14:54] <eroomde> but it's not much
[14:54] <eroomde> be warned i think they're utter crap
[14:54] <eroomde> it's more than you want some kind of current limiting for them
[14:55] <eroomde> maybe 0.5A and maybe no straight away (so eith a low voltage so L*(di/dt) does the job, or an active ramp)
[14:55] <eroomde> gosh my typing is awful, I do apologise
[14:55] <eroomde> maybe not*
[14:56] <eroomde> so either*
[14:56] <Laurenceb> ok
[14:56] <eroomde> but i think they're crap because the hot wires seem very prone to breaking before getting the pyrogen mixture started
[14:56] <eroomde> they will happily go ping
[14:56] <Laurenceb> im going to build a test rig to experiment with spun rockets
[14:56] <Laurenceb> i see
[14:57] <Laurenceb> i need some sort of slip ring for the ignitor
[14:57] <eroomde> i would go so far as to say that *most* estes igniter launches at ears fail
[14:57] <Laurenceb> might use a pcb
[14:57] <Laurenceb> lol
[14:57] <eroomde> but they might not have current limiting on their launcher
[14:57] <eroomde> daveyfires are good
[14:58] <Laurenceb> pcb with circular gold plated pads
[14:58] <Laurenceb> pads/traces
[14:58] <Laurenceb> anyways
[14:59] Action: Laurenceb -> job interview
[14:59] <eroomde> why not just carbon brushes?
[14:59] <eroomde> solved problem
[14:59] <Laurenceb> yeah but difficult to fit
[14:59] <Laurenceb> or maybe not... its a design problem
[15:00] <eroomde> if the nozzle throat is large enough, maybe have a fixed igniter
[15:00] <eroomde> the motor spinning about it
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[15:00] <eroomde> i.e. the igniter forms part of the stator
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[16:13] <eroomde> number10: MotD
[16:13] <number10> ?
[16:13] <eroomde> music of the day
[16:14] <eroomde> I went to see jack gibbons play gerswhin last night in ox
[16:14] <number10> aha
[16:14] <eroomde> so in honour of that
[16:14] <eroomde> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muG6jQDfB24
[16:14] <number10> thanks - I'll take a listen :)
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[16:17] <number10> that must have been a fun party
[16:18] <eroomde> for when you have a bit longer you'll see a link to his rhapsody in blue
[16:18] <eroomde> transcribed from gershwin's paino rolls
[16:18] <eroomde> he played that as a finale last night
[16:18] <eroomde> instant standing ovation
[16:19] <number10> great - thanks eroomde
[16:24] <griffonbot> Received email: Steve Aerospace "[UKHAS] Launch announcement: XABEN-31 Wednesday/Thursday"
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[17:01] <nigelvh> Morning all
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[17:41] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[17:41] <Lunar_Lander> today I noticed something
[17:41] <Lunar_Lander> when I put in new energizers into the battery holder I got 5.4 V, back when I started the duration test I only had 5.1V
[17:41] <Lunar_Lander> also, the system draws 110 mA
[17:42] <Lunar_Lander> I think eroomde asked for that number
[17:42] <Lunar_Lander> or DrLuke
[17:42] <DrLuke> not me
[17:42] <DrLuke> and hi
[17:44] <eroomde> what was the time gap between putting the batteries in and starting the durection test Lunar_Lander ?
[17:44] <Lunar_Lander> the time gap was considerable I would say, I had done minor tests with these batteries the two days before the test
[17:46] <eroomde> worth considering as the reason for the voltage drop?
[17:46] <Lunar_Lander> I think so
[17:47] <Lunar_Lander> I'll be back in a few minutes
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[17:52] <nigelvh> eroomde, here's my new transmitter board. Minus the ground pour for visibility. https://k7nvh.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Iris_BRD_NoPour.png
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[17:55] <Darkside> nigelvh: nice
[17:55] <Darkside> so you're still using the Si571?
[17:55] <nigelvh> I'll probably send them off to be fabbed today.
[17:55] <nigelvh> No, I'm just using the Si571's footprint
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[17:56] <Darkside> k
[17:56] <MrScienceMan> so i tester our chute today
[17:56] <nigelvh> The 571 is too expensive for taste
[17:56] <MrScienceMan> https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-7R8Fc9KaJFI/UDJ04pOc6pI/AAAAAAAABjs/AJXo5IbCGh0/s512/IMG_7061.jpg
[17:57] <Randomskk> not from the top?
[17:57] <Randomskk> or is that it after being caught?
[17:57] <MrScienceMan> after
[17:57] <MrScienceMan> https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-cpeHtimnLKk/UDJ184aAzTI/AAAAAAAABjc/JUoSdnKfTAg/s512/IMG_7059.jpg
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[17:58] <MrScienceMan> that cable is the only thing near the land side and we managed land exactly on it
[17:58] <nigelvh> You got any thoughts Randomskk?
[17:58] <nigelvh> You were rather helpful in the schematic phase.
[17:59] <Randomskk> will have a check in a bit, just trying to finish this thing off at work before I go home
[17:59] <nigelvh> Sounds good.
[17:59] <Randomskk> it's 7pm and I'm still in the office :|
[17:59] <Randomskk> last one left :|
[17:59] <Randomskk> stupid thing is so nearly working
[17:59] <Randomskk> but I said that like half an hour ago
[17:59] <nigelvh> I've spent weeks saying that.
[17:59] <Randomskk> hehe
[18:00] <nigelvh> Works fine for me anyway, it's lunchtime here.
[18:00] <LazyLeopard> MrScienceMan: Heh! Things like that seem to have a strange attraction for HAB payloads...
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[18:01] <Lunar_Lander> back
[18:01] <Lunar_Lander> cool nigelvh
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[18:02] <cuddykid> Got a GoBandit on the way! Hopefully stick it on a launch soon :)
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[18:08] <griffonbot> Received email: "Re: [UKHAS] Re: HAM-1 Launch Announcement for 10:30am Saturday 18th
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[18:08] <Lunar_Lander> eroomde, I agree with you that the prelim. tests discharged the batteries somewhat
[18:10] <Upu> in other news pope a Catholic and sun will rise in the morning
[18:10] <Gadget-Mac> Evening all
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[18:13] <griffonbot> Received email: "Re: [UKHAS] Launch announcement: XABEN-31 Wednesday/Thursday"
[18:14] <jcoxon> evening all
[18:14] <Lunar_Lander> hi Upu jcoxon
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[18:14] <HixPad> Evening peeps
[18:18] <nigelvh> Morning all
[18:18] <Upu> evening Lunar_Lander
[18:18] <HixPad> With the zeusbot log search does it only search the old stuff? Nothing from 2012 seems to appear
[18:19] <Randomskk> just what google has archived, but that should include 2012 stuff
[18:19] <Randomskk> iirc
[18:19] <HixPad> Scratch that. Seen search on the new logs page
[18:19] <HixPad> Was using the old search function
[18:19] <Randomskk> aha
[18:20] <HixPad> Rtfm.....
[18:22] <eroomde> d'oh
[18:22] <eroomde> google street view
[18:22] <eroomde> is just entirely for self driving cars
[18:23] <eroomde> i've just been reading about google cars localisation algorithms
[18:23] <eroomde> and how they work (it's a sort of particle filter to estimate state)
[18:23] <Randomskk> I wouldn't say entirely, but that may well have been a big motivator
[18:23] <eroomde> i would be surprised if it isn;t 95% of it
[18:23] <eroomde> seriously
[18:24] <eroomde> street view is nice, but it has laser rangefinders and cameras cos that's what the self driving cars measure against
[18:24] <Darkside> what about areas that sren't covered?
[18:24] <eroomde> and the cars themselves will auto-update streetview, because they have an almost identical sensor package to the streetview cars
[18:24] <eroomde> Darkside: it's down;t work
[18:24] <eroomde> it's *just* localisation
[18:25] <eroomde> rather than simultaneous localisation and mapping (slam)
[18:25] <griffonbot> Received email: Steve Aerospace "Re: [UKHAS] Launch announcement: XABEN-31 Wednesday/Thursday"
[18:25] <eroomde> but if the model is Good Enough (tm) then when the cars are everywhere they'll be able to keep the mapping topped up
[18:25] <Darkside> m
[18:25] <Darkside> k
[18:25] <eroomde> the future is coming!
[18:25] <Darkside> goddamnit i am tired
[18:26] <eroomde> it literal;ly is the same sensor package as the self driving cars
[18:26] <HixPad> The future is so yesterday
[18:26] <Lunar_Lander> hi Darkside
[18:26] <eroomde> just doing the mapping
[18:26] <Lunar_Lander> eroomde, xD tm
[18:26] <eroomde> XD is your trademark yes :)
[18:26] <Lunar_Lander> yea :P
[18:26] <Lunar_Lander> btw currently the system undegoes a cold test at -75°C!
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[18:29] <nigelvh> Oh yeah? Well my payload (A lead brick) works in a cold test dunked in liquid helium.
[18:30] <griffonbot> Received email: Mike Willis "RE: [UKHAS] HAB Amp"
[18:31] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[18:31] <eroomde> bbl
[18:31] <HixPad> Are these guys the cheapest helium dudes? shop.click4warehouse.co.uk/helium-rental-cylinders-uk-delivery-756-c.asp
[18:31] <HixPad> Short of a BOC account
[18:36] <griffonbot> Received email: Tomasz Brol "Re: [UKHAS] HAM-1"
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[18:44] <Lunar_Lander> nigelvh, how did you mean the lead block thing?
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[18:48] <griffonbot> Received email: MikeB "Re: [UKHAS] HAM-1"
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[18:51] <Lunar_Lander> nigelvh, how did you mean the lead block thing?
[18:52] <costyn> good evening
[18:52] <Lunar_Lander> hello costyn
[18:53] <griffonbot> Received email: Anthony Stirk "Re: [UKHAS] HAB Amp"
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[18:54] <costyn> Lunar_Lander: how's your payload doing?
[18:55] <costyn> Lunar_Lander: what have you got at -75? everything incl camera's or only tracker?
[18:56] <Lunar_Lander> the full tracker
[18:56] <Lunar_Lander> the 808 camera had been in the fridge already in May
[18:56] <costyn> ah
[18:56] <costyn> how are you going to shield the 808 from your tracker?
[18:57] <griffonbot> Received email: Lee West "Re: [UKHAS] HAB Amp"
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[18:57] <costyn> Upu: funny, I thought you said people shouldn't reply to the mailing list ;)
[18:58] <Upu> I know
[18:58] <Upu> we also have a Wiki though sometimes you wouldn't belive it
[18:58] <Upu> believe
[18:58] <Lunar_Lander> costyn, not tested yet, probably will be outside and wrapped with Al foil
[18:58] <Gadget-Mac> Upu: What connectors are on the amps ?
[18:59] <costyn> Upu: :)
[18:59] <Upu> end launch SMA's
[18:59] <costyn> Lunar_Lander: ok
[18:59] <costyn> i'm psyched to get working on the next tracker and payload :)
[18:59] <Gadget-Mac> Upu: Nice :)
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[19:00] <Lunar_Lander> costyn, yea
[19:00] <Lunar_Lander> why did your camera fail?
[19:04] <costyn> Lunar_Lander: it seems when it got its bumpy start the top of the camera bumped into the lid of the payload box and hit the shutter button, interrupting the CHDK script
[19:04] <Lunar_Lander> :(
[19:04] <Lunar_Lander> how could that be avoided?
[19:04] <Lunar_Lander> daveake said to me I should remove the reset button of the arduino
[19:05] <costyn> Lunar_Lander: so next time the camera housing will be made so that it can't move once installed and there is space around where the buttons are
[19:05] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[19:06] <costyn> that's not a bad idea... never use it anyways
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[19:06] <costyn> Lunar_Lander: might use the screw on the bottom to secure the camera to a small plastic plate (which is glued to the payload), this will keep it in place better I think
[19:06] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[19:07] <Lunar_Lander> consider this https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10744
[19:07] <Lunar_Lander> look at the power selector switch
[19:07] <Lunar_Lander> that might be a problem too
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[19:07] <costyn> is that your mainboard?
[19:07] <Lunar_Lander> my arduino
[19:07] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[19:07] <Lunar_Lander> the sensors are mounted on another board
[19:07] <daveake> costyn Yeah, cut a holes or otherwise shape the surroundings so the buttons don't get pressed
[19:07] <daveake> -a
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[19:07] <Lunar_Lander> hi daveake
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[19:08] <Lunar_Lander> see where it says EXT and BATT https://dlnmh9ip6v2uc.cloudfront.net/images/products/1/0/7/4/4/10744-01.jpg ?
[19:08] <costyn> daveake: yes in hindsight should've done that
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[19:08] <costyn> Lunar_Lander: i've seen it yes
[19:08] <Lunar_Lander> what if that switch gets moved
[19:08] <Lunar_Lander> arduino will turn off
[19:08] <costyn> heh
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[19:09] <costyn> Lunar_Lander: If you don't need it often, put a drop of hot-glue on it. You can remove the hot-glue later
[19:09] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[19:09] <nigelvh> Yeah, for the balloons, I haven't had an issue with the reset buttons, but I left one on, on a rocket payload. Working, working, liftoff, nothing.
[19:09] <Lunar_Lander> I think I only used it twice before
[19:10] <Upu> anyone got a graph of internal payload temperature vs altitude ?
[19:10] <Upu> from any launch
[19:10] <costyn> Upu: not handy atm, but I have data
[19:10] <costyn> I need to go though. ttyl!
[19:10] <Upu> can you link data ?
[19:10] <Upu> nps
[19:10] <costyn> Upu: yea one sec
[19:10] <nigelvh> I've got stuff too.
[19:10] <mattbrejza> http://www.apexhab.org/apex-ii/launch-1-data/
[19:10] <nigelvh> Let me see if I can find it.
[19:10] <Upu> thanks mattbrejza
[19:11] <mattbrejza> apex II L1 was much worse insulated from wind then L2
[19:11] <Upu> yeah
[19:11] <costyn> Upu: sent you a link to google docs
[19:11] <Upu> thats not quite what I was trying to prove :)
[19:11] <Upu> thanks costyn
[19:11] <costyn> gtg
[19:12] <nigelvh> Upu, I've similarly got a google doc. Email so I can share it with you?
[19:12] <Upu> upuaut at gmail.com
[19:12] <nigelvh> Sent
[19:12] <Upu> thanks
[19:13] <nigelvh> This was from four or five years ago, but it was a payload with camera/antenna/sensor wire holes, though they were pretty well sealed.
[19:15] <nigelvh> Also, this was an I2C temp sensor (DIP8 package) on the PCB, so it's likely warmer than the air by a little.
[19:16] <Upu> may I share that data with people ?
[19:16] <nigelvh> Yeah
[19:17] <nigelvh> I believe the sensor was rated at +/- 1C
[19:18] <nigelvh> Also these were lithium rechargable batteries, running at 300mW transmitter constantly, so the battery voltage may be of interest to those curious about lithiums.
[19:18] <Upu> cheers muchly
[19:24] <nigelvh> I've also dug up last year's flight.
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[19:25] <Lunar_Lander> hello nosebleedkt
[19:25] <nosebleedkt> tomorrow TV comes home
[19:25] <nosebleedkt> lol
[19:25] <nosebleedkt> :P
[19:26] <Lunar_Lander> cool!
[19:26] <Lunar_Lander> I saw you are on the newspaper
[19:26] <nosebleedkt> yeah
[19:26] <Lunar_Lander> cool!
[19:27] <nosebleedkt> 2nd newspaper
[19:27] <nosebleedkt> :P
[19:27] <Lunar_Lander> yay
[19:27] <nosebleedkt> it get funny
[19:28] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[19:30] <nigelvh> Upu, sent you another set of data
[19:30] <nigelvh> This one from spring 2011
[19:30] <nigelvh> No camera, still with antenna/sensor holes
[19:30] <nigelvh> Pretty well sealed.
[19:30] <Upu> thanks
[19:30] <nigelvh> This temp sensor is NOT a DIP8 on the board.
[19:31] <nigelvh> It's a TO-92 at the highest it can be with the devices legs.
[19:32] <Upu> thats all good thanks
[19:32] <Upu> just trying to tell someone you don't need hand warmers
[19:32] <nigelvh> Ah
[19:32] <nigelvh> Yeah, Unless the device is going to be outside the package, generally not.
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[19:33] <Upu> sorted thanks
[19:33] <nigelvh> You are welcome
[19:34] <Upu> looks like I'll be making more of these amps
[19:34] <nigelvh> They do appear to be becoming popular
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[19:34] <mattbrejza> im assuming theyll mod to 869 easy enough?
[19:34] <Upu> you'll need a different filter
[19:35] <mattbrejza> all depends on the LNA frequeny response
[19:35] <Upu> EPCOS one
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[19:35] <mattbrejza> boom http://docs-europe.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/0536/0900766b805368d5.pdf
[19:35] <mattbrejza> either way this is a way off
[19:35] <Lunar_Lander> xD boom?
[19:35] <mattbrejza> farnell are a bit crap for saw filters
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[19:36] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[19:36] <Lunar_Lander> hey Elmar_PD3EM
[19:36] <Upu> sec
[19:36] <Elmar_PD3EM> hey
[19:36] <Elmar_PD3EM> good evening all
[19:36] <aklofas> howdy
[19:36] <nigelvh> Evening
[19:37] <Elmar_PD3EM> still 29 degrees in my shack...
[19:37] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[19:37] <Lunar_Lander> I just opened up the window wide
[19:37] <Lunar_Lander> to let the wind come in
[19:38] <Elmar_PD3EM> no wind here..
[19:38] <Lunar_Lander> :(
[19:40] <Upu> mattbrejza I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work
[19:40] <Upu> ask Darkside he's probably the best man to ask
[19:41] <Upu> you can have a PCB if you want
[19:41] <Upu> I have few extrea
[19:41] <Gadget-Mac> Upu: Any danger of ending up with too much signal with one of the amps ?
[19:41] <Upu> nah
[19:42] <Upu> AGC levels it out
[19:42] <Upu> I think its about 19db of gain
[19:43] <Gadget-Mac> nice :)
[19:43] <Lunar_Lander> xD I just remembered an awesome story
[19:44] <Lunar_Lander> guy and his girlfriend come home after being out and it's late and she wants to turn on the stereo but nothing happens, because she didn't push the A-B switch to turn on the speakers
[19:44] <Lunar_Lander> instead she sees the volume being -60 dB or so and she concludes that it is too less volume
[19:44] <Lunar_Lander> and she turns it up to 0 dB, still nothing just shhhhhhhh
[19:44] <Lunar_Lander> and then she pushed the A-B button
[19:44] <mattbrejza> yea Upu this isnt anything thats gonna happen any time soon. The SAW filters all seem to be 50ohm, so its just a case of copying the matching ciuicruit from the datasheet for 869
[19:45] <Lunar_Lander> the guy said that was the fastest he ran from the bathroom to the living room in all his life
[19:45] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[19:45] <Upu> bet she jumped
[19:46] <Lunar_Lander> yeah she too but he did cause of the neighbours
[19:50] <daveake> My wife did that and destroyed the speakers
[19:50] <daveake> Ones I'd made
[19:50] <daveake> I was so happy :p
[19:51] <Lunar_Lander> oh :(
[19:51] <daveake> On the plus side, she couldn't argue about my budget to replace them :)
[19:51] <Lunar_Lander> xD
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[20:52] <Upu> hey radim_OM2AMR
[20:52] <Upu> just scanning through your page watch those keychain cameras they can jam the GPS
[20:59] <radim_OM2AMR> Hey Upu, yes, I checked those, no GPS jam, maybe due to ground plate under active antenna
[20:59] <Upu> ah should be ok then just didn't want you do what I did :)
[20:59] <radim_OM2AMR> you mean camera shield ?
[21:00] <Upu> Well I jammed the GPS on my first flight
[21:01] <radim_OM2AMR> Oh so :-(
[21:01] <mattbrejza> ubloxs have jamming detectors, might be worth seeing if theres a difference between the camera on and camera off reading
[21:01] <Upu> it still jams them I tried it
[21:01] <Upu> GoPro didn't
[21:02] <radim_OM2AMR> but GoPro is not as cheap for the first flight :-D
[21:03] <mattbrejza> it will be possible to shield it, theres just the issue of knowing when its properly shielded
[21:03] <mattbrejza> other thing to do is put the camera right up near the balloon
[21:04] <radim_OM2AMR> it will freeze I think
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[21:06] <Upu> it will
[21:07] <Upu> we taped one to the top of the payload and it did this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exQiMNsbR6k
[21:07] <Upu> (wizz to end)
[21:07] <kristianpaul> mattbrejza: jaming detection, how so? i tought this feature was forbidden ;-)
[21:07] <Upu> it also jammed Dave's payload :)
[21:07] <Upu> watch how it dies :)
[21:09] <fsphil> shame that died
[21:09] <fsphil> it was a good view
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[21:12] <radim_OM2AMR> great view, really
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[21:13] <mattbrejza> jamming detection is fine
[21:13] <radim_OM2AMR> hmm, jammed upper - dave's payload ? so I will check it again and again Upu :-)
[21:14] <mattbrejza> do you have a rtl dongle? you might be able to see the inteferece
[21:15] <radim_OM2AMR> mattbrejza, yes, and funcubedongle too
[21:15] <kristianpaul> yes i do, but i'm afraid my eye is not that developed :)
[21:16] <kristianpaul> do you have a comparison in pictures?, just to get an idea
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[22:01] <eroomde> Randomskk: so google street view was co-developed by sebastian thrun
[22:02] <eroomde> him who is leading the google self driving car project
[22:02] <eroomde> i feel ever more confident in my assertion that street view exists from the beginning for self driving cars
[22:02] <Randomskk> heh
[22:04] <eroomde> right nn
[22:04] <Randomskk> seeya
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[22:29] <aklofas> Question: how hard would it be to float a radio-reflective balloon and bounce ham signals off of it?
[22:30] <aklofas> kind of like an instant long-range antenna
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[22:51] <bertrik> I think you'd have a 4-th power inverse relation between signal strength and distance to the balloon
[22:53] <bertrik> and reflection drops off for wavelengths larger than the balloon
[22:55] <aklofas> So I would need a really big balloon attached to a rope
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[22:57] <aklofas> I might be trying to get a cheap pirate radio station running
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[23:21] <NSS> I'll Be Back In 30 Minutes
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[00:00] --- Tue Aug 21 2012