highaltitude.log.20120816

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[00:52] <DrLuke> woops, I've accidentally created a wrong new subnamespace in the ukhas wiki :S
[00:58] <nigelvh> What was that? You tore a new hole in spacetime via the wiki? Great. Now what do we do with the last few billion years on earth!?!?
[01:02] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[01:02] <nigelvh> Evening Lunar
[01:03] <heathkid> Hello Lunar_Lander
[01:04] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[01:05] <heathkid> I've just been reading through the wiki and such...
[01:05] <heathkid> would like to do a launch in the near future
[01:06] <heathkid> our high altitude chamber has recently been upgraded and may go well beyond 100k feet
[01:06] <heathkid> problem is there's no temp control in there
[01:06] <nigelvh> I don't bother testing temp and pressure simultaneously
[01:07] <heathkid> so now I'm thinking a double styrofoam system using dry ice
[01:07] <nigelvh> Really most the time I don't bother testing pressure. Most anything survives fine. The real bit that will get you is temperature
[01:08] <nigelvh> Just test that everything peachy-keen when cold, and then use the pressure chamber to calibrate the barometer if you have one.
[01:08] <heathkid> that shouldn't be a problem then
[01:08] <heathkid> I can test for that easily in our environmental chambers
[01:08] <heathkid> might even do some thermal shock testing
[01:08] <nigelvh> Yeah. Generally I do a few hot/cold cycles
[01:09] <nigelvh> -40/+60/-30/+50/-10/+30
[01:09] <heathkid> how long do you dwell at what temp?
[01:09] <heathkid> or just cycle?
[01:09] <Darkside> you're generally only below -20 for an hour or so
[01:09] <nigelvh> I don't really bother dwelling any longer than it takes to make sure it's working properly. The change in temperature is where the stress is.
[01:09] <Darkside> above 12km the payload get warmer
[01:10] <Darkside> if you get to -40 degrees you're either flying during night-time, or you didn't insulate your payload properly
[01:10] <nigelvh> Also, inside the packaging, my payloads generally only get down to about 0.
[01:10] <nigelvh> The thermal testing just helps weed out bad joints.
[01:10] <heathkid> good point
[01:11] <heathkid> I'm planning on testing at -50 to +80C and cycle it for 72 hours
[01:12] <nigelvh> No need to go that far.
[01:12] <nigelvh> Take it up, take it down. Make sure it works. It'll be fine.
[01:12] <Darkside> mm
[01:12] <nigelvh> I don't even take the big university projects going to antarctica to cycle for 72 hours.
[01:13] <Darkside> tbh most things you're be flying will be fine down to -50 deg C
[01:13] <Darkside> its the batteries that are the biggest concern
[01:13] <heathkid> :) I may be taking it to an extreme...
[01:13] <heathkid> they'll be heated
[01:13] <nigelvh> A few cycles, and taking measurements is the high end of what you'd want. In reality a single cycle and making sure it works is fine.
[01:13] <Darkside> why?
[01:13] <Darkside> heathkid: why bother heating the batteries? energizer AAs work perfectly down to -50, and probably below
[01:14] <heathkid> I'll be running li-poly
[01:14] <Darkside> i've flown payloads that have sat at the bottom end of my temp sensors rane (-55C) for 12 hours
[01:14] <Darkside> why!
[01:14] <nigelvh> As another reference point, as mentioned my payloads generally get down to 0C and my li-polys work fine.
[01:14] <Darkside> don't fly lipos!
[01:14] <Darkside> maybe if you insulate well enough
[01:14] <Darkside> but
[01:14] <Darkside> i've had nothing but nad experiences with lipos
[01:14] <Darkside> bad*
[01:14] <nigelvh> Lipos have worked perfectly every time for me.
[01:14] <heathkid> can't recharge energizer AAs
[01:15] <Darkside> thankfully they were all secondary payloads
[01:15] <Darkside> heathkid: this is true
[01:15] <Darkside> but they work
[01:15] <Darkside> and are pretty cheap off ebay
[01:15] <Darkside> run your main telemetry off energizer lithium AAs
[01:15] <Darkside> and whatever else off lipos
[01:15] <Darkside> having a payload die from cold really sucks.
[01:16] <Darkside> our first talkthrough repeater died like that
[01:16] <nigelvh> Did you have the batteries exposed?
[01:16] <Darkside> nope
[01:16] <nigelvh> I've never had the issue
[01:16] <Darkside> this was well insulated too!
[01:16] <heathkid> this will be my first launch... I have no clue what I'm doing yet
[01:16] <Darkside> the cell voltages dropped enough that the repeater didn't work
[01:16] <Darkside> we had a 14.8V (?) pack in there
[01:16] <nigelvh> I use two cells in series, and run through a 7805 regulator. Not the most efficient, but it works fine.
[01:17] <nigelvh> Never had an issue.
[01:17] <Darkside> mm in that case voltage drop might not be enough for it to cause a problem
[01:17] <Darkside> but still, as a rule we only use energizer AAs in critical payloads
[01:17] <heathkid> I'm still looking for a source for a balloon...
[01:17] <Darkside> like, positioning
[01:17] <heathkid> batteries are the least of my worries
[01:17] <nigelvh> You could also get lithium primary cells
[01:18] <nigelvh> crapton of power packed in those.
[01:18] <Darkside> nigelvh: which is what energizer aas are
[01:18] <Darkside> lithium AAs*
[01:18] <Darkside> lithium iron disulphide
[01:18] <nigelvh> The ones I've used are big approximately D sized cells. 3V each at 10AH.
[01:18] <heathkid> wow!
[01:18] <Darkside> ooh
[01:18] <Darkside> ooooh
[01:18] <nigelvh> Yeah
[01:19] <nigelvh> They're not fucking around.
[01:19] <Darkside> are these the big ones that have low current draw capability?
[01:19] <Darkside> used in backup systems
[01:19] <nigelvh> No, I don't think so.
[01:19] <nigelvh> They manage a couple amps just fine.
[01:19] <Darkside> ooh ok
[01:20] <Darkside> i'm thinking of lithium thionyl chloride
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[01:20] <nigelvh> Yeah, I don't recall what the specifics on these are.
[01:20] <Darkside> http://www.saftbatteries.com/Produit_LS_cell_range_303_6/Language/en-US/Default.aspx
[01:20] <nigelvh> We had a few hundred donated to us.
[01:20] <Darkside> D cell, 3.67V, 17Ah
[01:20] <heathkid> nice
[01:20] <Darkside> mad cont current is 250mA
[01:20] <Darkside> max*
[01:20] <Darkside> and they're restricted transport
[01:21] <nigelvh> Yeah, ours definitely do more than that.
[01:21] <Darkside> still, energizer AAs are pretty cool
[01:21] <Darkside> each cell has a 3Ah rating
[01:21] <Darkside> and they're ridiculously light
[01:21] <nigelvh> We generally use them in the ATV payload. 2 cameras, uC, relay, video overlay board, GPS, and 5W ATV transmitter, all running constantly.
[01:21] <Darkside> 3V 3Ah for <30G i think
[01:21] <Darkside> ooh ok
[01:22] <Darkside> what band ATV?
[01:22] <nigelvh> 70cm
[01:22] <Darkside> thought so
[01:22] <Darkside> much easier to do ATV there than on 23cm :-)
[01:22] <nigelvh> Yeah. Also you can just put a preamp on a TV and get it to pick up.
[01:22] <Darkside> we need to fly that here before we lose 440-450MHz
[01:22] <Darkside> we've got the hardware, just haven't had th etime
[01:23] <heathkid> you both in the UK?
[01:23] <Darkside> i'm in australia
[01:23] <nigelvh> No, I'm in the US.
[01:23] <Darkside> though in 48 hours i'll be in the UK
[01:23] <Darkside> :P
[01:23] <heathkid> :)
[01:23] <heathkid> I'm in Indiana
[01:23] <Darkside> we have it easy in the US and austrlia
[01:23] <Darkside> we can flyw hatever amateur gear we want
[01:23] <Darkside> in the UK they're heavily restricted
[01:24] <heathkid> so on a HAB with ham gear on it... is the station the launch site?
[01:25] <nigelvh> Yeah, assuming you've got your Amateur Radio License heathkid you'll be set.
[01:25] <heathkid> have had it since I was 12
[01:25] <nigelvh> Also, the station is the balloon
[01:25] <nigelvh> It's what's transmitting.
[01:25] <heathkid> right... but telemetry rules apply... right?
[01:25] <nigelvh> Yes
[01:26] <nigelvh> If I recall telemetry is defined as a one way transmission of data from a remote station.
[01:26] <heathkid> correct
[01:26] <heathkid> now... what if I want to do two-way communication to send it commands?
[01:26] <heathkid> is that legal?
[01:26] <nigelvh> Sure.
[01:26] <nigelvh> Then it's just a remote control telemetry station.
[01:26] <heathkid> nice! :)
[01:27] <nigelvh> In general, just play nice with the other local users, make sure you meed the ID requirements, and you're set.
[01:28] <heathkid> that's good to know
[01:28] <Darkside> mm
[01:28] <Darkside> its more a case of don't cause interference, and nobody will care
[01:28] <nigelvh> Pretty much
[01:28] <heathkid> I saw there was a trans-atlantic flight not long ago... what rules apply once a balloon flies over another country?
[01:29] <nigelvh> In most cases the local hams will be very curious and excited about it.
[01:29] <Lunar_Lander> good night
[01:29] <heathkid> nite Lunar_Lander
[01:30] <nigelvh> You're in their airspace, but using your american callsign. So in general play by the FCC rules, but try to be nice an follow along with what the other country's standards are.
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[01:30] <nigelvh> (NOT LEGAL ADVICE)
[01:31] <trelane> I would guess that the US will not extradite because of a radio tiff
[01:31] <nigelvh> I tend to think of it as you have an american callsign, so you're liable to the FCC. Meet their requirements first.
[01:31] <heathkid> right
[01:32] <heathkid> that's my plan... and play nice and polite with everyone else
[01:32] <trelane> this sounds like a situation where it's better to beg forgiveness
[01:32] <nigelvh> Otherwise, like Darkside said, play nice and nobody will care.
[01:32] <nigelvh> Also, you're extremely unlikely to have to worry about that. It takes a lot of specific planning to get a balloon to do that.
[01:33] <nigelvh> In all likelyhood, your balloon will pop and fall within 50mi.
[01:36] <heathkid> probably
[01:38] <nigelvh> Unless you're trying it's almost a guarantee.
[01:42] <nigelvh> So I assume you've got something set for a tracker?
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[01:44] <heathkid> still looking at options
[01:45] <heathkid> Radiometrix does have some interesting options...
[01:46] <nigelvh> They do have some reasonable radio modules
[01:46] <heathkid> but I could launch a Baeofeng dual-band HT for a lot cheaper!
[01:46] <DrLuke> http://i47.tinypic.com/2iav7e8.png
[01:46] <DrLuke> what do you guys think?
[01:47] <nigelvh> heathkid, have you considered what mode/frequency you plan to transmit?
[01:47] <heathkid> not sure yet but plan on a redundant system
[01:47] <nigelvh> Having a backup tracker is handy
[01:48] <nigelvh> We end up having three sources of GPS data on our flights, but they're from different trackers that serve different functions.
[01:57] <DrLuke> why
[01:57] <DrLuke> that's just extra weight and battery consumption, 2 should be more than enough
[01:58] <nigelvh> Each system does different stuff. We have an ATV transmitter, that overlays GPS coordinates on the images, I created a high speed data telemetry system, and the older telemetry system is low speed, and speaks the data via audio.
[01:58] <nigelvh> Also, for some background, this is all for a class at the University of Washington
[01:59] <nigelvh> The students create science payloads that measure something, and it's up to our telemetry systems to get the data down.
[01:59] <DrLuke> oh
[01:59] <nigelvh> Weight and battery power aren't terribly big concerns for us.
[01:59] <heathkid> oh I forgot... I actually did launch a weather balloon about 30 years ago...
[01:59] <DrLuke> so you want to be very extra sure it works
[01:59] <heathkid> sorta got in trouble...
[01:59] <heathkid> shut down O'Hare International in Chicago
[01:59] <heathkid> ooops
[02:00] <DrLuke> :S
[02:00] <DrLuke> was there any legal followup?
[02:00] <nigelvh> Yeah, shouldn't do that.
[02:00] <heathkid> no
[02:00] <heathkid> just an ooops
[02:00] <DrLuke> you're lucky then
[02:00] <DrLuke> if you did that today you would end up in guantanamo bay
[02:00] <heathkid> also not supposed to launch without permission from an airport either
[02:00] <heathkid> :)
[02:00] <DrLuke> for being a freedomhating arab terrorist
[02:00] <heathkid> but they tracked it and informed O'Hare
[02:01] <nigelvh> We launch from an airport, but are on the phone with the tower letting them know when we let it go so they can keep everyone in the loop. Also it's a less used airport.
[02:01] <heathkid> one of my friend's dad worked at an airport... there was a balloon... hmmm...
[02:01] <DrLuke> well, I have a medium sized airport nearby
[02:01] <DrLuke> but our gliding club already talks a lot with them
[02:01] <DrLuke> and they're super friendly
[02:01] <DrLuke> "they" being the air traffic controllers
[02:02] Nick change: soafee-chan -> spacekitteh
[02:02] <DrLuke> they're extremely chill about everything and we sometimes invite them over for a flight
[02:02] <heathkid> well, the traffic controllers were more upset there were two kids out on the runway launching a weather balloon than anything else...
[02:02] <nigelvh> Yeah, probably less than ideal.
[02:02] <DrLuke> you always gotta talk with the ATCs
[02:02] <heathkid> live and learn
[02:03] <heathkid> now a few decades later... I want to do it the right way
[02:03] <DrLuke> hehe
[02:03] <DrLuke> get a proper NOTAM out
[02:03] <heathkid> and have a better payload than a note.... :)
[02:03] <heathkid> it popped somewhere over Lake Michigan
[02:03] <DrLuke> make sure to use a string that breaks with 120N of force
[02:04] <DrLuke> it's some icao regulation
[02:05] <nigelvh> That's never been terribly clear. Breaks with 120N of force in the longitudinal direction? Breaks with 120N of force applied perpendicularly with a sharp object?
[02:06] <DrLuke> well
[02:06] <DrLuke> when you fix one end to the ceiling, it has to break when you put roughly 12kg of weight on the string
[02:07] <DrLuke> that's how I understand it
[02:07] <SpeedEvil> nigelvh: the two are equivalent if the rope is unrestrained
[02:09] <nigelvh> How is cutting it, and it breaking with 120N of weight on it equivalent?
[02:10] <DrLuke> cutting it is a whole different story
[02:11] <nigelvh> Well that's the scenario of force applied perpendicularly with an object.
[02:11] <SpeedEvil> I mean forcing laterally
[02:11] <DrLuke> nigel: what when an airplane rams the line with its wing?
[02:11] <DrLuke> that's definitely not a sharp object
[02:11] <SpeedEvil> oops
[02:11] <DrLuke> but the forces will surely be greater than 120N
[02:12] <nigelvh> Yes, it's not terribly "sharp" but it's not the same as 120N of weight on the string.
[02:12] <DrLuke> but it surely is enough force to break it when 120N pulling on the string is enough to break it
[02:13] <DrLuke> definitions don't relly matter, it's just so planes (especially smaller ones) don't have to land with a HAB stuck to their wing, possibly blocking the ailerons or even elevators
[02:13] <nigelvh> Also, 120N is 27lbs. It's relatively low.
[02:14] <nigelvh> But yes, the idea is that a plane would break it.
[02:14] <DrLuke> it's ~12kg
[02:14] <DrLuke> well yeah
[02:14] <nigelvh> Yes, because 27lbs is appx 12.2kg
[02:14] <DrLuke> and I'm pretty sure that even a glider hitting it will break it
[02:16] <DrLuke> why would you even want to use the imperial system, hah!
[02:16] <DrLuke> :P
[02:16] <nigelvh> Because I live in america and I was taught poorly.
[02:17] <DrLuke> well, as long as you weren't taught that creationism is the thing, all is fine
[02:17] <nigelvh> I fully admit the metric system is better, and I often try to use metric for lengths, but I don't have any concept for the weight of a kg.
[02:17] <DrLuke> start lifting weights
[02:17] <DrLuke> lol
[02:18] <DrLuke> but I understand what you mean
[02:18] <nigelvh> (Yeah, I'm not much of a believer in the religious stuff)
[02:18] <DrLuke> the metric system build upon a logic system, while the imperial is just a clusterfuck of random units
[02:18] <nigelvh> Yes.
[02:19] <DrLuke> although there's some things in the metric system I'm not happy with
[02:19] <DrLuke> like the avogadro constant being such an uneven number
[02:19] <nigelvh> Also for temperature, I still have to reference to known points in fahrenheit.
[02:19] <DrLuke> generally I think all units should be based of the smallest possible, like multiples of the weight of hydrogen (or whatever is the "lightest" weigth we know of)
[02:19] <nigelvh> Also, the avogadro constant isn't metric. It's just a universal constant
[02:20] <DrLuke> well yes
[02:20] <nigelvh> It's like saying Pi is imperial
[02:21] <DrLuke> don't even get me started on Pi and how people want to replace it with Tau :)
[02:21] <DrLuke> just because it makes calculating circles so much easier
[02:21] <nigelvh> Tau can shove off. It's just 2Pi
[02:23] <nigelvh> Now what I dislike is radians. If you're going to define an angle based on a full circle, just use 1. Makes things super easy to define precise angles, rather than some percent of an infinite number.
[02:23] <DrLuke> irrational*
[02:24] <nigelvh> Yes, that is more precise.
[02:24] <nigelvh> You understood the idea though.
[02:24] <DrLuke> yeah
[02:24] <DrLuke> just have this bad habit of correcting those mistakes
[02:24] <nigelvh> We all do.
[02:24] <DrLuke> although I wouldn't mind it if someone else did it with mine
[02:24] <DrLuke> and yes
[02:25] <DrLuke> radians is a bit of a pain
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[02:25] <DrLuke> but my calculator is cool, it outputs results as multiples of pi if it applies :)
[02:25] <nigelvh> Though, if you move to 1 for radians, it's essentially just a scaled version of degrees.
[02:25] <DrLuke> except less arbitrary
[02:25] <nigelvh> Yes
[02:25] <nigelvh> Though functionally the same.
[02:26] <DrLuke> but well, using pi just makes sense in this case
[02:26] <SpeedEvil> radians is very convenient in some cases
[02:26] <nigelvh> Yes.
[02:26] <DrLuke> you just go (percenteage_of_the_circle)*2*pi
[02:26] <nigelvh> Some math works easier with Pi Radians.
[02:27] <nigelvh> I'm just saying that figuring out that 1.57Radians somehow means half a circle.
[02:27] <nigelvh> It's not immediately intuitive.
[02:28] <DrLuke> that's why you when you do maths you always have a.) a calculator and b.) calculate in multiples of pi
[02:28] <DrLuke> that's also why I think it's bullshit to have no calculator in the maths finals in germany
[02:28] <nigelvh> Yes, then you end up with 3734/223934 * Pi Radians.
[02:29] <DrLuke> true
[02:30] <DrLuke> but usually in exams such a result is an indicator for something going wrong
[02:30] <nigelvh> Yes, in exams. The real world is often less fun.
[02:31] <DrLuke> well in the real world you would just round the result to 2 decimal places * pi
[02:31] <DrLuke> calculators always have a button to display the fraction as a decimal
[02:31] <DrLuke> mine can even do the rounding
[02:32] <nigelvh> Yes, but then we're back where we started before getting to a fraction of pi.
[02:32] <DrLuke> and probably any decent calculator can do that
[02:32] <DrLuke> why?
[02:32] <DrLuke> you get something like 0.77*pi
[02:32] <DrLuke> just divide 0.77 by 2 and you get how much of the circle it is
[02:32] <DrLuke> 0.385 circles
[02:33] <nigelvh> It all comes down to being precise and using a ratio of pi, or being convenient and ending up with a decimal number that's less accurate.
[02:33] <DrLuke> well what's accurate
[02:33] <nigelvh> That depends on the situation
[02:33] <DrLuke> were your measurements of the circle's parameters accurate enough to go for 10 decimal places?
[02:34] <DrLuke> exactly
[02:34] <nigelvh> My favorite piece of precision I've got is a frequency reference that's generally accurate to 0.01ppb
[02:34] <DrLuke> but in the end you'll always end up rounding
[02:34] <nigelvh> Not that I'd need it to be.
[02:34] <DrLuke> is it one of those gsm-antenna rubidium frequency standards?
[02:35] <nigelvh> Yeah, it's a GPS disciplined oscillator.
[02:35] <nigelvh> I use it to clock my HP frequency counter.
[02:35] <DrLuke> nice
[02:35] <DrLuke> must've cost a small fortune
[02:36] <nigelvh> It was actually rather inexpensive, I picked up the oscillator, antenna, and power supply on ebay for about $150.
[02:36] <DrLuke> oh
[02:36] <nigelvh> The HP counter I got for free broken from a local ham.
[02:36] <DrLuke> well those 0.1ppm rubidium standards go for 80$ I think
[02:37] <DrLuke> and those are over 10 years or so old, so they probably already are going around 0.5 ppm
[02:37] <nigelvh> Yeah, go for the Trimble Thunderbolt GPSDO
[02:38] <nigelvh> You pick them up used on ebay. Doesn't matter how old it is as long as it's within the disciplining range.
[02:38] <DrLuke> 1 ppm already is more than I'll probably ever need
[02:38] <nigelvh> Yes.
[02:38] <DrLuke> and I generally don't need one right now
[02:38] <nigelvh> In reality 1ppm is probably plenty.
[02:39] <DrLuke> yeah
[02:39] <DrLuke> oh well
[02:39] <nigelvh> But a 0.01ppb reference is nice to reference off of and know that your stuff is right on, so you don't worry about adding in any local error.
[02:40] <DrLuke> yep
[02:40] <DrLuke> other than for calibrating instruments I couldn't think of any use for one
[02:40] <nigelvh> At some point here I'll get a frequency synthesizer and clock it off that. Then I'll be able to generate and measure extremely precisely.
[02:41] <nigelvh> One thing I'd like to do is use it to compete in the ARRL FMT
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[06:09] <griffonbot> Received email: Chris Atherton "[UKHAS] Dropbox in space [sic]"
[06:22] <craag> So wifi can be done a short distance, albeit with 500mW TX and expensive equipment..
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[06:23] <craag> Sounds like they were very lucky with the recovery though!
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[06:24] <daveake> dropbox?
[06:24] <craag> Yeah.
[06:25] <daveake> Very lucky, dropping a box so close to someone.
[06:26] <Upu> morning
[06:26] <daveake> "Research & Preparation". Hmm, not sure that did much research :)
[06:26] <daveake> they
[06:29] <craag> "Minutes before launch, we discovered that our GPS transmitter was busted." - Soo, lets launch this balloon into the wilderness anyway!
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[06:56] <eroomde> "The caller informed us that shed gone outside to investigate a commotion among her horses when she discovered our balloon! Unbelievably thrilled, ...."
[06:57] <eroomde> that kind of thing gives me the heebiew jeebies
[06:57] <eroomde> if only we had $100M VC money as an insurance slush fund
[06:57] <daveake> :)
[06:57] <daveake> I love dropbox but that "project" was just silly
[06:58] <daveake> They didn't know where it was going; it was never going to send live images from "spaaace"; they launched without GPS
[07:07] <RocketBoy> stranegly the lands in a field of expensive horses and spooks them was one of the scenarios the insurers there up recently
[07:11] <RocketBoy> there = came up woth
[07:11] <RocketBoy> iwith
[07:11] <RocketBoy> gees
[07:12] <daveake> It's OK, we all have built in "dodgy Engish translators" these days
[07:13] <eroomde> 'what colour payload best pink' = 'i am a cretin. helping me is fruitless and will only shorten your life'
[07:13] <daveake> :D
[07:15] <MrScienceMan> its a good day today, got my hand on DR-599
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[08:12] <costyn> :)
[08:12] <costyn> just read that dropbox project thing. seems quite naive indeed
[08:12] <costyn> and they were very lucky they didn't send the horses panicking
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[08:13] <costyn> when I was a skydiver they always told us if you ever land out, please please try not to land in a field with horses as they're prone to panicking and seriously injuring themselves on barbed wire and such
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[08:14] <fsphil> stupid animals basically
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[08:26] <costyn> hehe
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[08:30] <gonzo__> yep, especially those who launch without gps
[08:35] <costyn> haha
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[08:57] <fsphil> that does seem a bit mental
[08:57] <fsphil> was there someone called Tim on their team by any chance?
[08:57] <gonzo__> what was the recovery plan? Just hoping someopne would find it and call the number???
[09:01] <fsphil> looks like
[09:01] <daveake> Yep
[09:04] <daveake> Note the carefully constructed payload - https://www.dropbox.com/sh/2im4hk3ccxn7cqg/Saw7d-e1ei#f:2012-07-22%2014.29.04.jpg
[09:05] <eroomde> 'we heard people have got 400 miles with wifi'
[09:05] <griffonbot> Received email: PFK "Re: [UKHAS] what frequencies modes are we alowed?"
[09:06] <daveake> The only surprise is they didn't include Josh's document in their list of "good resources"
[09:08] <costyn> fsphil: haha
[09:10] <costyn> they have a cute assistant though
[09:10] <costyn> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/2im4hk3ccxn7cqg/Saw7d-e1ei#f:2012-07-20%2007.45.57.jpg
[09:10] <craag> Wow. That payload is making me cringe... and I'm not really a HAB person!
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[09:22] <griffonbot> Received email: Steve Aerospace "Re: [UKHAS] what frequencies modes are we alowed?"
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[09:55] <eroomde> from my local sports centre, 'try trampolining! the perfect low impact sport!'
[09:55] <eroomde> that is unless you miss, presumably
[09:56] <gonzo__> it seems to be quite common, that people used to using flimsy cheap kit in a domestic./office enviroment, have no concept of what is required when you start flying things agressive enviroments like a/c, HABs, space, under the bonnet of a car etc
[09:57] <gonzo__> it's suprising how many kids go to casualty because of trampolines
[09:57] <eroomde> 'cant you just use usb?'
[09:57] <eroomde> quoted to me by a compsci when talking about connectors for a robotic airship we were building that would survey alpine glaciers
[09:57] <gonzo__> admittedly that's not frpm proper supervides trampolining
[09:58] <gonzo__> I cringe when usb is mentioned, unless it;s a modulation
[09:58] <eroomde> i put my foot down hard on the connectors and cabling issue
[09:59] <eroomde> even then, things like sata connectors to connect the pc104 board to an ssd gave us no end of trouble
[09:59] <eroomde> it seems like the design drivers for these connectors are 'how can we save another 5 cents?'
[09:59] <gonzo__> usb usualy (well for me) involves a lot od plugging, unpluggind and rebooting tio tryb and get some functionality
[09:59] <eroomde> it's crap
[09:59] <eroomde> we irritatingly have a couple of usb things to talk to old serial hardware on our rocket engine static test rig
[09:59] <eroomde> again, it's always the usb causing problems
[10:00] <eroomde> it's not isolated, which is a big pain
[10:00] <eroomde> everything else is ethernet which is great
[10:00] <eroomde> but usb just seems to invite ground loops when used in mechatronics things
[10:00] <eroomde> and yes the linux kernel seems to arbitrarily rename and rearrange things when you plug them in and out
[10:01] <gonzo__> ethernet or isolated RS485. Time server technology
[10:01] <eroomde> time saving aswell
[10:01] <eroomde> but yes, the legacy stuff is being etherneted in the next spin
[10:01] <gonzo__> typo, server-served
[10:01] <eroomde> so everything on the rig can go to the firing bay switch
[10:02] <eroomde> which will make life a happier thing
[10:03] <eroomde> also want to make it so we can use PoE and IEEE1588 timing standard
[10:03] <gonzo__> I assume everything has a hardwired safety interlock ? Relays and switches etc?
[10:03] <eroomde> which means one single cable to each of the data logging boxes
[10:03] <eroomde> no separate power connectors and common-time-stamp bncs
[10:04] <eroomde> yes we have everything interlocked and normally closed valves on all the fuel lines and so on
[10:05] <eroomde> and a couple of big red emergency buttons in the firing control room that go to the valve control box
[10:05] <eroomde> and sealed aircraft toggle switches with missile guards, but that's really just for shiggles
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[10:11] <gonzo__> I like those guarded switches. Also the ones with the protection bars, apollo CM/LM style. Very robust
[10:14] <eroomde> i've been trying to find those protection guards
[10:14] <eroomde> u bolts don;t really do it
[10:15] <RocketBoy> toggle switch guards - wilco (boy racers use them)
[10:16] <eroomde> link?
[10:16] <BrainDamage> they add to the coolness factor too :p
[10:16] <gonzo__> I've made simple ones from U section, cut and filed. With a hole at the bottom
[10:16] <BrainDamage> chinese shops sell guarded switches for cars
[10:16] <BrainDamage> dx, goodluckbuy, etc
[10:17] <BrainDamage> but given how critical is your system, you probably want better quality
[10:17] <RocketBoy> no link - I just got some in the local wilco - for model rocket launching
[10:17] <eroomde> this kind of thing? http://www.rubberduckiedesigns.com/images/Switchguard.JPG
[10:17] <gonzo__> apart from stopping accidental switching and coolnes. They save them getting broken when being chucked about
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[10:18] <BrainDamage> http://dx.com/s/toggle+switch
[10:19] <BrainDamage> they sell both just the cap or cap + switch set
[10:19] <eroomde> ah sure i know about that kind of cover, we use them as i mentioed above
[10:19] <gonzo__> mine come out more like: http://www.ctech-ind.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/63bec92a820ec470a5d45eb3a10b6947/i/m/image_10904.jpg
[10:19] <eroomde> but they don't work in all situations, they're designed for monostable things
[10:20] <eroomde> i.e. things which have a default position (off) and you need to lift the cover up to turn them on, cos the cover is design to toggle the switch to the default position when you close it
[10:20] <eroomde> so you can safe everything by snaping the covers down
[10:20] <BrainDamage> yup, you want a cover that allows both states?
[10:20] <eroomde> but i'm after the apollo style things that protect the switches but without having a 'default' position
[10:20] <eroomde> eg
[10:20] <eroomde> http://history.nasa.gov/ap16fj/pics/fdai_switches.jpg
[10:21] <eroomde> BrainDamage: i don't want a cover that allows both states!!!
[10:21] <eroomde> no way!
[10:21] <BrainDamage> I see
[10:21] <eroomde> that sounds like a accident waiting to happen
[10:21] <gonzo__> ah, illumonated also! That adds HAB(cool) points
[10:21] <eroomde> i.e. it would break the convention that you can 'safe' a system or see that it is safe at a glance by seeing if the covers are open or closed
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[10:23] <gonzo__> just retrieving a box from the boot without finding the switch lever bent of snapped will be enough for me!
[10:23] <eroomde> :)
[10:24] <eroomde> i have noticed that there is a nice difference when you spend £20 on a aerospace grade toggle
[10:24] <eroomde> it just feels more solid
[10:24] <eroomde> it clocks a bit more positively
[10:24] <eroomde> it's usually ip68 too
[10:24] <Randomskk> expensive switches do have great actions
[10:24] <eroomde> just harder to justify if it's just for occassional hobby use
[10:24] <Randomskk> ip68 is also nice
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[10:24] <eroomde> ip68 definitely useful for something like a rocket launch controller
[10:25] <Randomskk> I was in akihabara market one time
[10:25] <eroomde> you really don't want to have an fear about your rocket launch system malfunctioning in drizzle
[10:25] <Randomskk> found a stall that just sells toggle switches
[10:25] <Randomskk> best day ever
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[10:25] <BrainDamage> how's that place? sounds like engineer's wet dream
[10:26] <Randomskk> yes
[10:26] <Randomskk> that
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[10:28] <eroomde> ouch http://www.ebay.com/itm/Repro-Space-Shuttle-Toggle-Switch-Guards-/180691383314
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[10:30] <russss> lol, $800 each
[10:30] <gonzo__> toggle switch porn!
[10:30] <russss> $13.99 is still rather pricey
[10:30] Nick change: nick_ -> Guest54350
[10:31] Nick change: Guest54350 -> nick_
[10:32] <eroomde> indeed
[10:33] <eroomde> i do want to build a box with expensive toggles and missile switch guards and normal switch guards and throbbing led pushbuttons that pulse faster when they detect arming and so on, to be embedded into a peli case, and getting it all made on front panel designer from schaeffer
[10:33] <eroomde> this is what i need
[10:33] <Randomskk> more than once I've considered doing that
[10:33] <Randomskk> not even to control anything particular
[10:33] <eroomde> i have a few opportunities to do it legitimately in the next few months
[10:33] <eroomde> which is nice
[10:34] <Randomskk> just as you say, to have a box covered in cool switches and toggles and key switches and a number pad for codes and maybe an RFID card reader
[10:34] <Randomskk> and some push buttons that light up for firing
[10:34] <Randomskk> also with guards
[10:35] <nick_> You really need a dual key system too
[10:35] <Randomskk> of course, see the plural in "key switches" :P
[10:35] <eroomde> yes i suppose so
[10:35] <eroomde> and the side of the box needs to have some nice olive drab circular mil-spec connectors that you plug in with a satisfying bayonetty clonk
[10:35] <Randomskk> and firing codes inside a sealed envelope
[10:35] <Randomskk> with tamper tape
[10:35] <eroomde> handcuffed to your person
[10:36] <Randomskk> and the RFID arming card is also kept on your person at all times
[10:36] <Randomskk> and probably an RSA sequence generator too for good measure
[10:36] <Randomskk> really we need biometrics to cover all three factors
[10:36] <Randomskk> fingerprint reader is a given, one of the high security ones you can't quite so easily trick
[10:36] <Randomskk> maybe iris scanner
[10:37] <eroomde> i just want the throbbing LEDs really
[10:37] <Randomskk> of course
[10:37] <Randomskk> and they light up more and more the closer you get to armed
[10:37] <eroomde> a momentary toggle switch under a missile cover for arming
[10:37] <Randomskk> and I guess a klaxon
[10:37] <eroomde> and a throbbing led push button switch for fire
[10:38] <Randomskk> and strobing lights
[10:38] <daveake> wot no hotline phone?
[10:38] <eroomde> maybe with a spriny snapping cap
[10:38] <Randomskk> and the aforementioned sexy front cover
[10:38] <Randomskk> the whole thing in IP68 too
[10:38] <Randomskk> so you can use it while scuba diving
[10:38] <Randomskk> Just In Case
[10:39] <SamSilver> ...and a female carbon form in tight jump suit
[10:39] <Randomskk> well IP68 is some level of immersion, scuba diving takes a bit more
[10:39] <eroomde> scuba diving or launching rockets in scotland
[10:39] <Randomskk> SamSilver: like, graphene?
[10:39] <Randomskk> graphene could only improve it, I agree
[10:39] <Randomskk> not sure why you'd put graphene in a jump suit though.
[10:40] <nick_> To make it expensive
[10:40] <SamSilver> Bucky ball shapes moulede together
[10:40] <eroomde> actually here is a something that would be useful
[10:40] <eroomde> a reliable, robust (vibration, acceleration proof etc) pin pull switch
[10:41] <eroomde> so something that you can pull away from a little socket to make it relaibly turn on
[10:41] <eroomde> that means no audio jack bollocks, they're flimy as hell and short during connection and disconnection
[10:41] <eroomde> more like a grenade pin
[10:42] <Randomskk> that would be nice
[10:42] <Randomskk> I imagine they exist
[10:42] <nick_> You could do it with RFID
[10:42] <gonzo__> metal barrel with a microswitch in the side
[10:42] <Randomskk> nick_: not very reliably
[10:42] <eroomde> Randomskk: i'm not sure they do!
[10:42] <eroomde> have really look
[10:42] <nick_> Why wouldn't it be reliable?
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[10:42] <Randomskk> eroomde: huh, really?
[10:42] <eroomde> nick_: rebost i said
[10:42] <gonzo__> or magnet and reed switch
[10:42] <eroomde> rfid is probably the least robust way
[10:42] <eroomde> reed switches suffer from vibration
[10:42] <Randomskk> I can think of less robust ways
[10:43] <eroomde> true
[10:43] <gonzo__> true
[10:43] <eroomde> smoke signals or something
[10:43] <eroomde> but i mean, something that say a really violent snatch load like an inflating parachute at high speed could pull out
[10:44] <eroomde> just to signal that some event has happened
[10:44] <eroomde> microswitches also are not great at shock loads
[10:44] <Randomskk> I think it'd probably be a custom mechanical device with a really strong spring or something.
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[10:44] <eroomde> yes that's roughly what i had in mind
[10:45] <Randomskk> EMSL had a blog post yesterday about a fluid filled high voltage fuse that was pretty cool (though totally irrelevant)
[10:45] <eroomde> but you don't want the activation force to be too mega
[10:45] <Randomskk> neat to see how they solved that problem
[10:45] <Randomskk> it also involved springs
[10:46] <Randomskk> you also want the activation force to be very repeatable between events which could be trickier
[10:46] <Randomskk> maybe a shear pin rather than a spring
[10:46] <Randomskk> or something else designed to break
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[10:47] <eroomde> really wanted such a thing for, for example, arming rockets
[10:48] <Randomskk> yea I guess you want it to be a bit more reusable for that
[10:48] <eroomde> but with the knowledge that once the pin is out, it will stay working despite launch, parachute deploy, or harder than expected landing
[10:48] <eroomde> the issue with shear pins therefore is that they're kinda single use
[10:48] <eroomde> sorry yes, didn;t see that yopu just said that
[10:49] <Randomskk> if it's being pulled out manually then the force doesnt' have to be so strong
[10:49] <Randomskk> maybe a channel with a highly compressed spring held in place by the pin
[10:49] <Randomskk> like uh
[10:49] <eroomde> and it makes the whole 'remove before flight' tag convention more meaningful and robist at a human interface level
[10:49] <Randomskk> ----==== o /\/\||----
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[10:49] <Randomskk> where the --- are wires
[10:49] <Randomskk> the o is the pin, end-on
[10:49] <Randomskk> the === is a metal tube
[10:50] <Randomskk> the \/\/ is the spring
[10:50] <Randomskk> pull out the pin and the spring enters the tube
[10:50] <Randomskk> completing the connection
[10:50] <Randomskk> but won't then lose it just because it shifts a bit - the spring is a good way into the tube after pin removal
[10:50] <DrLuke> Randomskk: why don't you draw it in flockdraw?
[10:51] <Randomskk> probably put a plate at the end of the spring too I guess
[10:51] <Randomskk> ideally one that just fits into the tube
[10:51] <Randomskk> and probably have the pin run through a nylon tube of the same diameter that smoothly turns into the metal one, to guide the spring
[10:51] <eroomde> i'm still wary of springs
[10:51] <eroomde> would really rather thave something that properly locks
[10:51] <Randomskk> probably going to use a spring somehow
[10:52] <eroomde> a bit like the bayonet nobs on circular connectors
[10:52] <eroomde> but sort of in reverse
[10:52] <Randomskk> if you're going to have a removing thing
[10:52] <eroomde> maybe a spring that pushes something down a corkscrewed channel into a bayonet lock
[10:52] <Randomskk> ooh that could work
[10:52] <eroomde> and inserting the pin back in forces it out of lock
[10:53] <Randomskk> hmm less convince
[10:53] <eroomde> and compressed the spring back up
[10:53] <Randomskk> unless the pin was keyed to the thing corkscrewing
[10:53] <Randomskk> so you had to rotate the pin to reinsert it
[10:53] <Randomskk> and the rotating unlocks it
[10:53] <eroomde> definitely want to have the pin just 'pull' so that it can be done not just by humans but by chutes and stuff too
[10:53] <Randomskk> yes, pull out
[10:53] <Randomskk> but rotate to reinsert
[10:53] <eroomde> ah yes
[10:53] <eroomde> indeed
[10:54] <eroomde> this will be the greatest mechanism since lemo's
[10:54] <Randomskk> hah
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[11:17] <kokey> it's not often that you e-mail your payroll department telling you that you think they pay you too much
[11:17] <kokey> telling them that is
[11:18] <kokey> but I better sort this out now instead of having to cough up the tax later
[11:19] <kokey> actually in retrospect, I should have kept my trap shut, stuck all the money in an ISA, and then settle the tax later
[11:19] <fsphil> strange how emails sometimes go missing
[11:19] <Randomskk> don't payroll apply your tax anyway?
[11:19] <kokey> well, they do, but I think they did way too little
[11:19] <Randomskk> too little tax but the right gross pay?
[11:20] <kokey> yeah right gross pay it seems
[11:20] <Randomskk> I once had a too-small paycheque, emailed and was like 'uhm, yea, more pay pls'
[11:20] <Randomskk> "oh! sorry, here you are"
[11:20] <kokey> NI is also correct
[11:20] <Randomskk> but, way more tax too ;(
[11:21] <kokey> I think somewhere between a delayed start date, switching primary and secondary employer and maybe them pressing the wrong button somewhere, it all got screwed up
[11:21] <Randomskk> hehe
[11:21] <Randomskk> maybe they know what they're doing and you just don't owe much tax :P
[11:21] <kokey> good thing I'm pretty serious about working out tax, imagine I just blew the cash and then the HMRC would have been after me 2 years into the future
[11:22] <kokey> man, I wish that was the case
[11:22] <kokey> well I'm secretly hoping that I am wrong
[11:22] <kokey> that said, I just realised I should have kept my mouth shut
[11:23] <Randomskk> and invested the cash. for sure.
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[11:23] <eroomde> my fingers have total autopilot
[11:23] <Randomskk> do hmrc charge interest on payments owed though?
[11:23] <kokey> I worked out how much I could have made if I just went for a bog standard ISA savings rate and just settle with the HMRC when I do my tax return
[11:23] <Randomskk> heh
[11:23] <eroomde> on 6 occassions in the last few minutes i have tried to type 'rocker switch' but have instead typed 'rocket switch'
[11:23] <Randomskk> got enough space in this year's ISA to do it?
[11:23] <Randomskk> eroomde: :D I want a rocket switch
[11:24] <gonzo__> they charge interest but believe they will pay interest on overcharged money
[11:24] <kokey> actually I think they changed it recently so they don't pay interest on it any more, or a lot less than they used to
[11:25] <gonzo__> it's always a let down when you get a tax rebate, feel all pleased, then realise it was your money in the first place
[11:25] <kokey> oh yeah true I forgot there's an annual ISA limit
[11:25] <gonzo__> been a while since I dealt with them
[11:25] <Randomskk> gonzo__: haha yes
[11:25] <Randomskk> but it's still nice to get the money
[11:25] <eroomde> Randomskk: did you see my box mit blinkenlichts?
[11:25] <kokey> I'm counting the years before I'm legally allowed to start up a business of my own in the UK
[11:25] <Randomskk> eroomde: don't think so
[11:26] <eroomde> i finished it yest afternoon
[11:26] <eroomde> http://i.imgur.com/ec43x.jpg
[11:26] <Randomskk> kokey: what's the wait?
[11:26] <gonzo__> been at the same company for ages. Well, actually been with 4 companies, just sat at the same desk!
[11:26] <kokey> Randomskk: immigration
[11:26] <eroomde> it is quite unremarkable but for the pleasing rainbow of blinkenlights
[11:26] <Randomskk> eroomde: very nice
[11:26] <Randomskk> yes indeed
[11:26] <Randomskk> gonzo__: hehe. I've been at three different companies in this one office building
[11:26] <Randomskk> and four different offices inside it
[11:27] <gonzo__> to be accurate, the desk itself has moved about a bit, but it is technically the same one
[11:27] <Randomskk> I remember once getting like £500 tax back right when I really could do with £500
[11:27] <Randomskk> worked out very nicely
[11:27] <fsphil> I've had about 5 different desks at one company. they keep changing the office layout
[11:28] <kokey> I had to chase the HMRC last year for 8 months to pay out a tax rebate of over £2000
[11:28] <Randomskk> yea it does take some chasing
[11:28] <Randomskk> also I didn't have a P45 so ended up just sending them all the paycheques for the period
[11:28] <Randomskk> sigh
[11:29] <kokey> but I can't get a fat rebate like that soon again, you only have that luxury when you change countries and only work in the UK for part of a tax year
[11:29] <kokey> they delayed mine for all sorts of silly reasons, wanting to see the P60 certificates that they've already seen
[11:30] <kokey> I figured out eventually that part of the delay was that the company I was getting paid through went through two mergers during that year
[11:30] <Randomskk> can't help
[11:30] <kokey> so they changed name and code twice
[11:30] <kokey> ah yeah true I also had to send in a lot of payslips
[11:31] <Randomskk> heh I guess 'paycheque' is a bit antiquated now. all my payment is via bank transfer which is admittedly much nicer
[11:31] <kokey> oh so late PAYE penalty payments go from 1% up to 10%
[11:32] <kokey> depending on how late you are
[11:32] <Randomskk> ouch
[11:32] <Randomskk> then again you could top that in a decent ISA
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[11:32] <Randomskk> I've got +20% in the last 11 months
[11:32] <Randomskk> so you still come out ahead
[11:32] <kokey> yeah, or come out even or close at least
[11:33] <Randomskk> opssibly not worth the faff
[11:33] <Randomskk> possibly*
[11:33] <Randomskk> probably* really :P
[11:33] <kokey> it's all academic now since I told my employer now that I think they've done the tax wrong
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[11:50] <cuddykid> I'm guessing the ANO (2009) covers hydrogen balloons aswell as helium?
[11:51] <cuddykid> Got me thinking.. if that is the case, then would it cover a few small fireworks?!
[11:55] <Randomskk> the difference between hydrogen and helium balloons is quite a lot smaller than the difference between balloons and "a few small fireworks"
[11:55] <cuddykid> Randomskk: not in the case of a collision with an aeroplane say - they would both have similar impact
[11:56] <cuddykid> (if any)
[11:56] <Randomskk> uhm
[11:56] <Randomskk> you reckon a high velocity explosive will have the same impact as a balloon?
[11:56] <cuddykid> filled with hydrogen yes
[11:57] <Randomskk> I think I disagree
[11:57] <Randomskk> but anyway this is all conjecture
[11:57] <cuddykid> yeah
[11:57] <Randomskk> I have no idea if the ANO allows you to launch fireworks from balloons
[11:57] <Randomskk> but to be honest I doubt it
[11:57] <cuddykid> lol
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[12:16] <eroomde> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtCZRIx1Q8Y
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[12:28] <DrLuke> haha
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[12:33] <costyn> eroomde: fantastic! :)
[12:35] <Dutch-Mill> ping Costyn
[12:35] <costyn> Dutch-Mill: hiya
[12:36] <Dutch-Mill> Hoi Costyn ik kan er helaas niet bij zijn zaterdag a.s. ik in de buurt van Hilversum. Neem wel m'n set mee
[12:36] <Dutch-Mill> ben
[12:36] <costyn> Dutch-Mill: ok no problem. still a bit unsure where we'll be launching from.
[12:36] <Dutch-Mill> zondag bedoel ik
[12:37] <costyn> Dutch-Mill: but if you could listen in, great :)
[12:37] <costyn> Dutch-Mill: PD3EM will be assisting; I have enough people to help out in any case
[12:38] <Dutch-Mill> Oke that's nice
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[12:39] <Dutch-Mill> Wat is the launch location Rijswijk or PD3EM's QTA
[12:39] <costyn> Dutch-Mill: probably PD3EM, launch from Rijswijk still shows a wet landing in the North Sea
[12:40] <costyn> Dutch-Mill: but we're considering moving even further east towards Arnhem
[12:40] <costyn> no NOTAM requirement makes this all really easy :)
[12:40] <daveake> grrrrrr :)
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[12:42] <costyn> rules basically say if balloon is smaller than 2 meters in diameter at groundlevel, helium less than 4 cubic meters and payload less than 4kg you're allowed to do what you want
[12:43] <fsphil> ah man
[12:44] <Dutch-Mill> ... and yes we have a dense poplated contry and airspace
[12:44] <costyn> it does have to be for 'meteo research' but they don't specify it further
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[12:45] <costyn> and you're not allowed to let it go into foreign airspace without their permission
[12:45] <DrLuke> costyn: you're not doing meteo research
[12:45] <costyn> DrLuke: i can always argue that later if necessary :)
[12:45] <DrLuke> :P
[12:45] <costyn> DrLuke: carrying temp and pressure sensors
[12:46] <costyn> the rules are pretty specific funny enough ,they also say anything heavier than 30g has to have a parachute which restricts it to 5m/s descent rate
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[12:51] <gonzo__> if you are tracking it, you get wind direction and speeds in 3dims. That's research
[12:52] <costyn> gonzo__: good point
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[12:53] <fsphil> hmm.. CPC have the raspberry pi listed as "In Stock"
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[13:15] <eroomde> i generaly don;t talk much unless it's summer either
[13:15] <eroomde> so I know where you're coming from
[13:16] <daveake> :)
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[15:31] <Martian_Lander> hello
[15:31] <Martian_Lander> eroomde: found the cause of the temperature sensor
[15:31] <Martian_Lander> VCC wire was not properly soldered into power rail
[15:33] <eroomde> indeed, i've known that was the most likely thing for several days
[15:33] <eroomde> but the important thing is that you found the problem :)
[15:33] <eroomde> so awesome stuff
[15:36] <Martian_Lander> yea
[15:36] <Martian_Lander> currently the system is sending out on the NTX2 and recording to the SD card
[15:36] <Martian_Lander> want to see what it returns when I stop it tomorrow
[15:36] <eroomde> oh wow
[15:36] <eroomde> awesome
[15:36] <eroomde> that's impressive work that all of that stuff is working
[15:37] <Martian_Lander> yeah
[15:38] <Martian_Lander> the only thing is that sometimes the time in the string gets stuck and that returns a 333 error
[15:38] <Martian_Lander> but jcoxon said that something like that can happen from time to time
[15:41] <daveake> Does it work next time round?
[15:42] <Martian_Lander> yea the next string then works again
[15:42] <daveake> Well just bin the bad data and try again
[15:42] <Martian_Lander> yea
[15:43] <Martian_Lander> what else was there
[15:43] <daveake> Would be nice but nit imprrative to get the GPS code working 100%
[15:43] <Martian_Lander> the DMM says the batteries deliver 5.1 V
[15:43] <daveake> not imperrative
[15:43] <Martian_Lander> the circuit says 4.6 V
[15:43] <Martian_Lander> I'll try to figure out the correction factor
[15:43] <Martian_Lander> yea
[15:43] <daveake> Cool
[15:43] <Martian_Lander> yea
[15:43] <daveake> It.s 5.1/4.6
[15:43] <Martian_Lander> ok, thanks
[15:43] <daveake> lol
[15:44] <Martian_Lander> XD
[15:44] <jsowman_> it might not be linear if it's due to ADC effects
[15:45] <jsowman_> well, it might not be linear full stop
[15:46] <Martian_Lander> yea
[15:47] <daveake> So long as it's not hit the ADC max, it should be limear. It's only a pot divider and an ADC
[15:48] <Martian_Lander> yea
[15:52] <Martian_Lander> thanks again
[15:52] <Martian_Lander> will be back later
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[16:12] <SamSilver> my HAB Landy needs a 40m hf dipole any ideas? http://i.imgur.com/xOfNh.png
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[16:21] <daveake> I shall keep that link handy for next time anyone suggests my HAB-mobile project has gone OTT
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[16:38] <craag> That's it in 'travel' mode. The 2m yagis come out sideways: http://www.w4dex.com/gallery/SVHFS-2009-Conference-Charlotte/DSCF0119
[16:39] <daveake> Please, no-one show that to Upuwork :D
[16:39] <LazyLeopard> ;)
[16:40] <LazyLeopard> Can think of a few bridges that'd be difficult to drive under... ;)
[16:41] <MrScienceMan> but of an overkill wouldnt you say
[16:42] <craag> I think the idea is that to enter in a contest he can drive up to a vantage point, and just key up with no setup.
[16:43] <craag> But yeah, I have enough problems remembering to take the 5/8 magmount off the car before going into car parks..
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[16:54] <daveake> On the Buzz2 chase, when we went to Belgium via Eurotunnel, the 5/8 magmount went "ping ping ping" as we drove along the inside of the train
[16:57] <eroomde> 'windows-open-handbrake-on-first-gear-or-park-yagis-stowed'
[16:57] <daveake> :D
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[17:48] <Gadget-Mac> Evening all
[17:50] <fsphil> My car needs more antennas
[17:51] <SamSilver> have you got a pic fsphil
[17:53] <fsphil> I don't, but imagine this with a single tiny magmount: http://i.imgur.com/qEkug.jpg
[17:54] <SamSilver> hmmm .... needs more bristle
[18:03] <SamSilver> fsphil: this is a vhf jobbie that would look great on your car, matching color > http://www.w4dex.com/gallery/SVHFS-2009-Conference-Charlotte/DSCF0140
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[18:05] <SamSilver> looks like one of them fair-ground things that test how steady your hand is
[18:21] <griffonbot> Received email: Josh Taylor "[UKHAS] Thanks!"
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[19:04] <nigelvh> fsphil, like this?
[19:04] <nigelvh> http://www.reddit.com/tb/y8b99
[19:07] <eroomde> when people have asked, i have told them that the signs that i have 'made it' in life would be a grand piano and a wood fired pizza oven
[19:08] <eroomde> but maybe now I should say, a grand paino, a wood fired pizza oven, and a radio-mobile-atron-dsn
[19:10] <Zuph> Every US ham club worth its salt has purchased an old ambulance and outfitted it just like this.
[19:12] <Zuph> They inevitably clog the roadway at the site of every minor local natural disaster.
[19:13] <eroomde> yeah the one in cambridge got an old transit with a 12m telescopic mast in the back
[19:13] <eroomde> now a portashack
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[19:33] <jcoxon> evening RocketBoy
[19:33] <fsphil> RMS is everywhere... http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/62317000/jpg/_62317127_015732473-2.jpg
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[19:58] <jcoxon> fsphil, like a ninja
[19:59] <eroomde> by the time you've smelt him, it's too late
[19:59] <eroomde> oh no, i meant to say, it's ok because he's still a couple of miles away
[20:06] <fsphil> Julian better watch out
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[21:04] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[21:33] <fsphil> hi Lunar_Lander. wie geht es dir?
[21:33] <Lunar_Lander> mir geht es gut, danke und dir?
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[21:34] <fsphil> crap... *google translates*
[21:35] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[21:36] <fsphil> gut danke
[21:36] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[21:36] <Lunar_Lander> I got the temperature sensor to work
[21:36] <fsphil> yay
[21:36] <Lunar_Lander> VCC wire wasn't soldered in properly
[21:37] <fsphil> yea I thought that might be the case
[21:37] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[21:37] <Lunar_Lander> might explain why it worked at the start but then failed all the time
[21:37] <fsphil> soldering wires requires care
[21:37] <fsphil> more so than regular components
[21:37] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[21:37] <Lunar_Lander> they tend to slip out of the holes
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[21:50] <Laurenceb_> wow
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[21:52] <davedave> hi can anyone recommend a cheap way of recording altitude. I am not too worried about a constant record, just something that will measure the max. altitude achieved by the ballon. I am using a kaymont 1200 balloon
[21:52] <Laurenceb_> 12hours travelling in one day
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[21:52] <Laurenceb_> im insane :P
[21:54] <fsphil> davedave, what are you tracking it with? surely it has gps
[21:55] <Randomskk> Laurenceb_: meh try 24 hours travelling in one day
[21:56] <Upu> GPS module linked to an Arduino or something with an SD Card on it
[21:56] <Upu> where are you based davedave ?
[21:57] <davedave> yeah will be using gps, but a few artlces on the web suggest that accuracy drops off after a certain altitude
[21:57] <davedave> I'm based in the UK
[21:57] <fsphil> gps altitude accuracy is not great at any altitude tbh, but it's the best you're likely to get
[21:58] <Upu> its accurate enough :)
[21:58] <Upu> why don't you got for a radio tracker then you can see where it is live
[21:58] <Upu> without fear of loosing GSM signal etc
[21:59] <davedave> My electronic skills are very limited so I am trying to keep in simple
[22:00] <Laurenceb_> Randomskk: UK to Brussels and back in one day
[22:00] <Upu> what are you trying to achieve davedave
[22:00] <Laurenceb_> how many Daves?
[22:00] <Upu> my electronics skills are limited too and I did it :)
[22:00] <Laurenceb_> oh i forgot - everyone is called Dave
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[22:02] <davedave> First time lauch. Me and a mate fancied have ago
[22:04] <davedave> We want to try and get some pictures of the curvature of the earth
[22:04] <Upu> Can I make a suggestion. If you're willing to put a little time in it really isn't that complicated to make a radio tracker, thought it does sound complex
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[22:04] <Upu> and that will be rewarding
[22:04] <Randomskk> also you're much more likely to manage to find it after it lands that way
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[22:04] <Upu> yep
[22:05] <davedave> i am willing to put the time in, I just don't know where to start
[22:05] <Upu> well short answer is here :)
[22:05] <Upu> You know what would be really useful for you , if you can make it we have a conference in London next month
[22:06] <Upu> http://ukhas.org.uk/general:ukhasconference2012
[22:06] <Upu> you'll learn alot trust me
[22:06] <Upu> and get to speak to people with alot of experience
[22:06] <davedave> the last time I did anything with circuits was in school and that was a long time ago
[22:06] <Upu> or you can watch it remotely we are going to stream it
[22:06] <Upu> When I started this the only thing I'd made as a joystick that waggled itself when I was 15
[22:07] <Upu> (555 timer in case you're wondering)
[22:07] <Lunar_Lander> hello Upu
[22:07] <Upu> evening Lunar
[22:07] <Lunar_Lander> Upu, temp sensor issue solved
[22:07] <Upu> Ok getting started do this :
[22:07] <Lunar_Lander> VCC wire not soldered properly
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[22:07] <Upu> I read Lunar :)
[22:08] <Upu> Read this : http://ukhas.org.uk/general:beginners_guide_to_high_altitude_ballooning
[22:08] <davedave> I did see the conference, I will see if my mate fancies going
[22:08] <Upu> the answer to your first 29 questions will be "The Wiki" which is here http://ukhas.org.uk
[22:08] <Upu> or on the wiki
[22:08] <Upu> :)
[22:08] <Upu> Have a good read through that
[22:08] <davedave> Cheers Upu
[22:08] <Upu> then read through the existing projects pages
[22:09] <Upu> after that you should have a vague idea of how to do it
[22:09] <Upu> but yes the conference will be very useful and interesting I'd recommend it
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[22:10] <Upu> anyway I'm pooped and off to bed, sure if you have any questions people will be happy to assist
[22:10] <davedave> Thanks, good night
[22:10] <Upu> and if nosebleedkt comes on ask to see his pictures
[22:11] <Upu> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/63720513/Images/HAB/Nosebleed/620510_502209346459781_645899209_o.jpg thats one of his
[22:11] <Upu> nn
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[22:13] <davedave> amazing picture
[22:14] <Lunar_Lander> :)
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[22:36] <Lunar_Lander> hello Zuph
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[22:57] <MrCraig> evening UK
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[23:24] <chris_99> is it legal to make steerable rockets?
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[23:35] <chris_99> actually i guess that's been done ith rocket gliders
[23:35] <chris_99> *with
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[00:00] --- Fri Aug 17 2012