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[02:52] <griffonbot> @steamfire: One of the GHOST superpressure balloons flew for 744 days in the late 1960s, with NCAR's Vincent Lally #UKHAS http://t.co/3dn35XN6 [http://twitter.com/steamfire/status/234844797012164608]
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[06:08] <jcoxon> morning all
[06:09] <Upu> morning
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[09:05] <Adam_> Hi
[09:06] <Adam_> would a cubical quad aerial with 10dB gain work as a ground aerial?
[09:07] <Darkside> you don't want much gain on the ground antenna, unles you're a really long away
[09:07] <eroomde> that's why my antenna is a paperclip
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[09:08] <Adam_> this would be for connecting to my SDR dongle
[09:08] <Adam_> what would you reccomend?
[09:10] <MrScienceMan> what happened to the preamp for the ezcap
[09:10] <Darkside> MrScienceMan: upu has been handling that
[09:10] <Darkside> UpuWork:
[09:10] <Darkside> Upu:
[09:11] <eroomde> alan
[09:11] Last message repeated 2 time(s).
[09:11] <eroomde> al
[09:11] <eroomde> alan
[09:11] <eroomde> al
[09:11] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[09:11] <eroomde> alan
[09:12] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[09:12] <eroomde> oh no i'm totally confused 2 memories there
[09:12] <eroomde> it's alan shouting Dan
[09:12] <eroomde> not dan shoting alan
[09:13] <eroomde> i need some coffee
[09:13] <Darkside> yes.
[09:13] <fsphil> xD
[09:14] <eroomde> Darkside: ^
[09:20] <jsowman> that's not alan
[09:21] <jsowman> that's steve
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[09:59] <UpuWork> Habamps
[09:59] <UpuWork> will be next week
[09:59] <UpuWork> they are good to go but I'm horrendously busy atm sorry
[09:59] <Adam_> ?
[10:00] <Randomskk> cool
[10:00] <Adam_> would I still need a good aerial?
[10:00] <craag> Awesome!
[10:00] <daveake> yes
[10:00] <Randomskk> quite tempted to pick one up, plug it into my colinear, try to make a permanent thing of it
[10:00] <fsphil> I bought a nice diecast box for mine yesterday
[10:00] <Randomskk> UpuWork: you should sell them in cases too :P
[10:00] <Adam_> i've been told by the local ham group that a cubical quad aerial with 10dB gain would be the best solution?
[10:00] <Darkside> Adam_: you don't need it for this
[10:00] <Darkside> a 1/4 wave ground plane works just fine for most launches
[10:01] <Randomskk> from the payload
[10:01] <Darkside> remember, you usually have line of right
[10:01] <Darkside> Randomskk: even on the ground
[10:01] <Randomskk> for your ground side tracking you probably just want a whip or a colinear
[10:01] <Randomskk> Darkside: true but still
[10:01] <craag> For a receiving antenna, a colinear is a good bet.
[10:01] <fsphil> I've chased with a 1/4 wave mag mount on the car, it works perfectly
[10:01] <Darkside> if you're near it, a 1/4 wave works too
[10:01] <daveake> "line of right" .... to be used when trampling across a field?
[10:01] <Darkside> sight.
[10:01] <daveake> I know :_)
[10:01] <fsphil> my brain autocorrected that
[10:02] <fsphil> watched too much scooby doo as a kid
[10:02] <Adam_> a whip? isn't that just the standard small aerial for a scanner?
[10:02] <Adam_> i don't have a proper radio, only a SDR dongle
[10:02] <Randomskk> you can still hook it up to a decent antenna
[10:03] <Adam_> so what do i need?
[10:03] <daveake> The main thing with an aerial is to get it as high as you can
[10:03] <Adam_> bear in mind i don't want to spend muhc money
[10:03] <Adam_> i'd rather build it myself
[10:03] <fsphil> you can get a 1/4 mag mount for about £15
[10:03] <daveake> Make a colinear from coax and tubing
[10:03] <daveake> For a chase car a mag-mount 1/4 wave or whip will do fine
[10:04] <fsphil> I have decoded telemetry from >500km with a little mag mount
[10:04] <fsphil> fair enough, I was on the side of a mountain at the time
[10:05] <Adam_> i've no idea what the difference is between the different types, so i'll have a quick google ;)
[10:05] <daveake> Adam_ If you don't want to spend much money, get a magmount then you can use that at home and in the car
[10:05] <daveake> Mine is like this - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EX-108UV-2M-70CM-DUAL-BAND-ANTENNA-AERIAL-WITH-MINI-MAG-MOUNT-BNC-CONNECTOR-/110900462033?pt=UK_Mobile_Phones_Communication_Radio_Antennas&hash=item19d22ec1d1
[10:05] <Adam_> so i don't want a cubical quad?
[10:05] <fsphil> out of stock, http://cpc.farnell.com/moonraker/12-028/dual-band-micro-antenna/dp/AP01509?in_merch=Products%20From%20This%20Range&MER=e-bb45-00001003
[10:05] <daveake> Still out of stock? Jeez
[10:06] <fsphil> how long's it been now?
[10:06] <fsphil> I see maplin has them but for more £££
[10:06] <daveake> http://www.wsplc.com/acatalog/Watson_Mobile_Antennas.html
[10:06] <daveake> About a year I think
[10:06] <fsphil> great little antennas
[10:07] <craag> Adam_: Cubical quad would be ok, but you'd have to point it at the balloon the whole time. Plus they tend to work out a bit flimsy IMO.
[10:07] <Adam_> oh ok
[10:07] <daveake> Adam_ W-77LS Watson 2m/70cm Dualbander on that page I linked £14.95
[10:07] <fsphil> that's not bad
[10:07] <Adam_> i just want one i can stick anywhere and it'll work with the SSB receiver
[10:07] <fsphil> then the vertical is ideal
[10:08] <fsphil> you really don't want to be aiming an antenna while driving :)
[10:08] <Adam_> oh, this isn't for a car.. :)
[10:08] <daveake> Yo9u will need one for the car
[10:08] <Adam_> i'm looking for something for home
[10:08] <daveake> This will do for both
[10:08] <Adam_> can't i wait for the balloon to land then start the chase with the coordinates noted?
[10:09] <daveake> On a budget, get one that does both, and the one I linked to is cheap and will work great
[10:09] <Adam_> it'll be quite complicated
[10:09] <Adam_> ok
[10:09] <Adam_> and with that can i track other balloons and help out?
[10:09] <fsphil> speaking from experience, you really need the data from as close to the ground as possible
[10:10] <fsphil> driving to near the predicted landing spot is the best bet for that
[10:10] <daveake> Adam_ When the balloon comes down, the last co-ords from others will stop at 500-1000m up depending on terrain and how far away they are. In your chase car you may get telemetry much lower than that, as you're much closer.
[10:10] <Adam_> ah ok
[10:11] <fsphil> the odds of you landing near a listener is quite remote, but it has happened
[10:11] <daveake> That said, if you have the predicted landing spot and drive there, you're very likely to get a signal when you get there if not before.
[10:11] <Adam_> ok
[10:11] <daveake> The PIE1 flight still had live images when it was down - the closest receiver was that close
[10:12] <fsphil> I had a signal from my third launch all the way to the tree and after
[10:12] <Adam_> but with the £14.95 / £19.99 aerials linked to my TV dongle, will I be able to stick it in the garden and track other balloons around the country and down south?
[10:12] <Adam_> or does that only work for chasing?
[10:12] <fsphil> you could hear in the signal it bouncing around the branches
[10:12] <daveake> Yes, but the pre-amp will help a lot
[10:13] <daveake> And getting the aerial up high will help
[10:13] <Adam_> why do people have these massive aerials then? if a small cheap one will do the same job?
[10:14] <daveake> I've tracked as far away as Belgium from an aerial taped to an upstairs window
[10:14] <Adam_> and what's this pre-amp?
[10:14] <Adam_> wow
[10:14] <craag> Mm, I've tracked balloons from Southampton with the dongle and supplied DVB antenna, just because I was on top of a hill!
[10:14] <daveake> Because when the balloon is low on the horizon the signal is weak, so a bigger/higher aerial will keep it working for longer
[10:15] <Adam_> ok, but once it's a few km's up, i should be able to help out tracking other balloons?
[10:15] <daveake> Really, to do this on a budget, get that magmount, get the pre-amp, and use your TV dongle.
[10:15] <Adam_> ok :)
[10:15] <Adam_> whats the pre-amp though?
[10:15] <Adam_> haven't heard it mentioned before
[10:16] <daveake> Upu will be seilling a little aerial amplifier soon. Darkside designed it.
[10:16] <Adam_> ok
[10:16] <daveake> Your TV tuner isn't as sensitive as it might be and the pre-amp will help. That said, if you want to save money, you can track without it.
[10:16] <Adam_> i'll get a mag mount then
[10:16] <daveake> I suggest you get the aerial and just try it on the next flight
[10:17] <daveake> Then decide from your experience
[10:17] <Adam_> however, my TV dongle isn't BNC
[10:17] <daveake> Get a cheap converter
[10:17] <Adam_> it's the sort of one you have on the back of a tv
[10:17] <Adam_> ok
[10:17] <daveake> Or you can solder a BNC socket in there, probably. I haven't bothered
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[10:18] <Adam_> RF?
[10:18] <Adam_> i'll get a converter of ebay.. what is the type of socket on the TV dongle?
[10:18] <daveake> You've got it look at it :-)
[10:19] <Adam_> haha
[10:19] <daveake> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BNC-SOCKET-to-TV-COAX-PLUG-ADAPTOR-/270786002069?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item3f0c1a7c95#ht_500wt_922
[10:19] <Adam_> I think I really need to start going to HAM radio meetings.. :)
[10:19] <daveake> Look around you might find one cheaper than that
[10:19] <Adam_> Thanks dave
[10:19] <daveake> Hmm careful with that :D
[10:19] <daveake> Just be carefuil with adapters to get male/female right at each end
[10:20] <Adam_> ok
[10:21] <daveake> Cheapest on ebay - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PRO-SIGNAL-PSG01745-ADAPTOR-BNC-TO-TV-PAL-/251067277040?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item3a74c69ef0#ht_500wt_1156
[10:29] <Adam_> thanks
[10:29] <Adam_> Bought it :)
[10:29] <Adam_> also, looking on this page for the antenna: http://www.wsplc.com/acatalog/Watson_Mobile_Antennas.html
[10:29] <Adam_> the 14.95 one says: * Bands 144 & 430MHz *
[10:30] <daveake> Yes, that's the one
[10:30] <Adam_> the 19.99 on glass one says: * Frequency range: 144-146MHz, 430-440MHz *
[10:30] <fsphil> they're the same thing really
[10:30] <Adam_> my transmitter is NTX2 434.650Mhz I think, so surely only the second one would pick that up?
[10:30] <daveake> They're not that 'peaky'
[10:30] <fsphil> the 70cm band in the UK is 430-440mhz
[10:30] <fsphil> saying '430mhz band' is just another way of saying it
[10:31] <fsphil> just lazy writing
[10:31] <daveake> So when it sayxs "430" it's really "430-440", and that doesn't mean if you try at 441 it won't work
[10:31] <fsphil> yea - I track sondes on 402.7 mhz with mine
[10:32] <Adam_> ok
[10:32] <daveake> The response will gently tail off
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[10:32] <Adam_> so why is one a fiver mote?
[10:32] <Adam_> is it just the mounting?
[10:32] <daveake> Probably
[10:32] <daveake> You want the mag mount one
[10:32] <Adam_> ok
[10:33] <Adam_> i'll see where the cheapest is
[10:33] <daveake> Like we said 30 mins ago ;)
[10:33] <Adam_> :)
[10:33] <daveake> That will be the cheapest probably. I've not seen cheaper.
[10:33] <fsphil> I imagine the car roof is a good ground plane, though I don't know how much effect that has
[10:34] <daveake> I would think so. But what I think and what radio thinks aren't always the same :)
[10:34] <Adam_> how about magnetising it to a radiator in the house?
[10:34] <daveake> Height matters more
[10:34] <fsphil> definitely
[10:34] <Adam_> ok
[10:34] <fsphil> get it into the attic even
[10:34] <Adam_> in the loft?
[10:35] <Adam_> :)
[10:35] <Adam_> yep
[10:35] <fsphil> watch out for spiders
[10:35] <daveake> Yep
[10:35] <Adam_> haha
[10:35] <daveake> Possible bargain for someone - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Diamond-X700H-Dual-Band-Vertical-Antenna-2m-70cm-base-high-gain-ham-aerial-/230837646784?pt=UK_Mobile_Phones_Communication_Radio_Antennas&hash=item35befef5c0#ht_500wt_1413
[10:35] <daveake> 7.2m lol
[10:35] <Adam_> collection only, not near me :(
[10:35] <daveake> No, get the mag mount, please
[10:35] <Adam_> not sure mum would be too pleased abou that...
[10:35] <daveake> You'd spend more than £14.99 on a mast for that beast!
[10:35] <Adam_> haha, yep I will
[10:36] <fsphil> madness
[10:36] <fsphil> isn't that the one Darkside has?
[10:36] <daveake> Having told everyone I'm tempted :p
[10:36] <fsphil> I've enough antennas up there already
[10:36] <daveake> Don't think my mast would cope though!
[10:36] <Adam_> so the mag mount would be considerably better than the cheap DVT antenna included with the dongle?
[10:36] <fsphil> my two colinears do look pretty odd
[10:37] <fsphil> vastly
[10:37] <daveake> Adam_ Yes
[10:37] <Adam_> ok, i'm in!
[10:37] <daveake> woohoo
[10:37] <Adam_> hopefully i'll now be able to help track
[10:37] <daveake> cool
[10:37] <Adam_> until i get a big aerial which my granddad might be able to give me when I see him at christmas
[10:38] <Adam_> ;)
[10:38] <fsphil> I'm still amazed these signals can be decoded 500km away
[10:39] <fsphil> it's 10mw, there are more powerful LEDs
[10:39] <Randomskk> radio = magic huh
[10:40] <Adam_> * Bands 144 & 430MHz * Gain 0dBi & 2.5dBi * VSWR < 1.5:1 * 50W max * Length 0.42m * Base PL-259 * Weight 70g
[10:40] <Adam_> vs
[10:40] <Adam_> Max power - 10W, Length - 51cm, Weight 120g
[10:40] <Adam_> big difference in max power.. and 10cm length difference... does that matter much?
[10:41] <fsphil> ignore max power
[10:42] <fsphil> avoid pl-259 if possible
[10:42] <fsphil> just get the little mag mount :p
[10:42] <Adam_> how come?
[10:42] <fsphil> you're over thinking it
[10:42] <Adam_> PL-259 is the waters and stanton one
[10:42] <Adam_> haha
[10:42] <fsphil> they're not great plugs
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[10:43] <fsphil> just around for historical reasons I suspect
[10:43] <Adam_> what about PL-250?
[10:43] <jdtanner> Afternoon...
[10:43] <Adam_> thats with the glassmount
[10:43] <Adam_> hello :)
[10:43] <Gadget-Work> daveake, nice 13dbi on the monster :)
[10:43] <fsphil> that's probably a typo Adam_
[10:43] <Adam_> pl
[10:43] <Adam_> ok
[10:44] <jdtanner> We are thinking about having a 'passive' trip out to have a look for PAVA
[10:44] <Gadget-Work> many a finger melted soldering a PL259
[10:44] <fsphil> I just did one of those for hadie:2 jdtanner :)
[10:44] <jdtanner> Any luck?
[10:44] <fsphil> none, but I did fall in love with the dales
[10:44] <Adam_> but these aerials are just plug and play so i shouldn't need to solder?
[10:44] <jdtanner> lol
[10:45] <fsphil> that place is amazing
[10:45] <jdtanner> What do you think the accuracy of the predicted landing site is like on the tracker?
[10:45] <fsphil> my leds are not so happy today though
[10:45] <fsphil> legs*
[10:45] <jdtanner> lol
[10:45] <fsphil> Adam_: yea
[10:46] <fsphil> mine has a BNC plug, fits straight into the 817. you'd use that adaptor daveake linked to earlier to plug it into the rtl dongle
[10:46] <Adam_> yep, i've got an adaptor on order :)
[10:46] <Adam_> so the decision
[10:46] <fsphil> I must get one of those myself
[10:46] <Adam_> W-77LS Watson 2m/70cm Dualbander on here http://www.wsplc.com/acatalog/Watson_Mobile_Antennas.html#a162
[10:46] <Adam_> or
[10:46] <Adam_> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EX-108UV-2M-70CM-DUAL-BAND-ANTENNA-AERIAL-WITH-MINI-MAG-MOUNT-BNC-CONNECTOR-/110900462033?pt=UK_Mobile_Phones_Communication_Radio_Antennas&hash=item19d22ec1d1
[10:46] <fsphil> although I'm hacking it anyway, could just remove the socket
[10:47] <daveake> Adam_ Either is fine. Go for whichever is cheapest inc postage
[10:47] <fsphil> jdtanner: foil balloons are a bit weird, I don't know of the predictor can handle them very well
[10:48] <daveake> Oh cancel that just saw the PL259 craptastic plug
[10:48] <daveake> Get the BNC one
[10:48] <fsphil> they don't really ascend or descent in a sane way
[10:48] <jdtanner> hmm...any idea if they over or undershoot?
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[10:49] <Adam_> theres a mini mag too furter down the watson page
[10:49] <Adam_> i think i missed half of that convo dave, my connection went bad
[10:49] <Adam_> it skipped from 11:46 to 11:49
[10:49] <daveake> Adam_ Get the ebay one.
[10:50] <Laurenceb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_Escape_Systems
[10:50] <Adam_> ok :)
[10:50] <daveake> jdtanner Just remember the foil balloons come down slowly, so they're basically going sideways, so they're quite likely to end up snagged on a bush/tree/fence
[10:51] <daveake> Look out for the foil
[10:51] <jdtanner> need a radar!!!
[10:51] <MrScienceMan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:LESSKinestheticControlConfiguration.jpg
[10:51] <MrScienceMan> :\
[10:51] <daveake> The one I chased, the payload was down and the balloon still flapping around in the wind
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[10:52] <daveake> That was at night and we spotted it with a (big) torch
[10:52] <jdtanner> we'll go and have a look Upu / Upuwork suggested a different landing site to the tracker
[10:53] <daveake> I don't know how accurate the tracker is with these
[10:53] <daveake> You'll be needing some luck as the radio will be dead by now
[10:54] <jdtanner> Hmm...well we can but try. Yeah...I haven't even bothered bringing my radio in today
[10:59] <fsphil> I was thinking when I was out looking that a solar powered beacon would be handy
[10:59] <fsphil> something that charges a cap up, then gives a few second peep on 434mhz
[11:00] <daveake> I imagine you had plenty of time to think about that recently :D
[11:00] <fsphil> haha yea. it was just looking out at a mountain thinking, I don't even know of it's here
[11:00] <fsphil> it could be on the mountain down the road
[11:00] <daveake> A solar beacon may well have helped!
[11:01] <fsphil> something like those solarbotic things, that charge up and then do some kind of action
[11:02] <fsphil> I sense a plan forming
[11:03] <daveake> :)
[11:03] <daveake> Buzz2 was saved by having ~40 hours of battery life
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[11:07] <griffonbot> @kylehotchkiss: RT @steamfire: One of the GHOST superpressure balloons flew for 744 days in the late 1960s, with NCAR's Vincent Lally #UKHAS http://t.co ... [http://twitter.com/kylehotchkiss/status/234969507146387456]
[11:16] <Laurenceb> i doubt we are going to beat balloon duration record anytime soon
[11:18] <Randomskk> amateur one though maybe
[11:18] <Randomskk> or was that?
[11:18] <MrScienceMan> thats 2 years
[11:18] <MrScienceMan> :x
[11:18] <eroomde> that is pressiveo
[11:19] <Laurenceb> over 2 years
[11:22] <DrLuke> but how
[11:22] <DrLuke> wouldn't all the helium leak?
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[11:38] <Randomskk> oooh.
[11:38] <Randomskk> looks like we'll be putting up a X-50N colinear on a 30m mast at EMF
[11:38] <danielsaul> and doing a pico launch :)
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[11:39] <Laurenceb> EMF?
[11:39] <fsphil> fantastic
[11:39] <Randomskk> as in http://emfcamp.org
[11:39] <Randomskk> if someone else wanted to launch that weekend though
[11:39] <Randomskk> we'd be super up for tracking :P
[11:39] <Randomskk> 30m high colinear in the middle of the country
[11:40] <Randomskk> be excellent
[11:40] <Laurenceb> seems a bit fascist to send all the nerds to a camp
[11:40] <danielsaul> haha
[11:40] <Laurenceb> id avoid the shower block
[11:41] <Randomskk> keep it classy
[11:41] <eroomde> a concentration camp for computer nerds
[11:41] <eroomde> hmm
[11:41] <eroomde> call it schwitzstatement or something
[11:41] <Laurenceb> id restrict it to java users
[11:42] <fsphil> vb users too
[11:42] <fsphil> only those who like it
[11:42] <fsphil> not those forced to work on it
[11:44] <daveake> Randomskk When is EMF?
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[11:44] <danielsaul> daveake: 31st aug to 2nd sep
[11:44] <Randomskk> fri-sun basically
[11:44] <Randomskk> in milton keynes
[11:44] <Darkside> hrm
[11:45] <Randomskk> it's looking to be super awesome.
[11:45] <daveake> possible
[11:45] <Darkside> not going to be able to get there for that
[11:45] <daveake> (to launch I mean)
[11:45] <Darkside> too much of a pain
[11:45] <Randomskk> Darkside: boo, come by train and just buy a day ticket for one day :P
[11:45] <fsphil> there's a slim chance I might be launching that weekend
[11:45] <fsphil> really depends on weather
[11:45] <Randomskk> that'd be cool.
[11:45] <fsphil> and caa
[11:45] <Darkside> Randomskk: but its gonna be a looong train ride up there
[11:45] <Randomskk> hopefully it'd be a nice place to track from
[11:45] <Randomskk> Darkside: I guess ._.
[11:46] <Darkside> remember, i have to get to london, then get north
[11:46] <Randomskk> meh :p
[11:47] <daveake> It's a small country Darkside, and we have public transport :)
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[11:47] <Darkside> heh
[11:47] <Darkside> its still like 3 hours to get there
[11:51] <griffonbot> Received email: Anthony Stirk "Re: [UKHAS] Re: SDR + Front End Filter/Amp"
[11:52] <fsphil> 3 hours on a bus is no fun
[11:52] <Darkside> this would be by train likely
[11:52] <MrScienceMan> the wheels of the bus go
[11:52] <MrScienceMan> ...
[11:53] Action: MrScienceMan takes his coat and exits
[11:54] <domlin> up and down
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[12:01] <jdtanner_> Currently in a field in the Peaks searching for PAVA
[12:01] <Randomskk> :D
[12:01] <Randomskk> good luck
[12:02] <daveake> ^^ needed
[12:02] <jdtanner_> Not looking too hopeful...David is returning empty handed from what I can tell
[12:02] <jdtanner_> We'll have a look around from the car
[12:02] <UpuWork> lol
[12:02] <UpuWork> buy yuo a beer jdtanner :)
[12:02] <UpuWork> it could be anywhere :/
[12:02] <jdtanner_> Lol...
[12:03] <jdtanner_> Yeah, we went with the prediction from the tracker
[12:04] <daveake> Try Upu's prediction?
[12:07] <jdtanner_> Where was that again?
[12:08] <UpuWork> sec
[12:09] <UpuWork> 53.0988 -1.5479
[12:10] <UpuWork> Intake Lane
[12:10] <UpuWork> Lots of trees...
[12:10] <UpuWork> South of Matlock
[12:10] <UpuWork> this is the issue though with 2 predictors disagreeing and no radio i think you're just going to have a nice day out :)
[12:10] <UpuWork> let me see if I can work it out from the last track
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[12:11] <fsphil> no better place for a day out
[12:12] <UpuWork> give me 5 mins doing some simple addition makes my brain hurt
[12:14] <jdtanner_> Ok...
[12:14] <jdtanner_> We'll wait on your calc :)
[12:15] <UpuWork> ok so about 17mins flight left
[12:15] <UpuWork> and it was doing about ...
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[12:16] <UpuWork> 30km/h
[12:16] <UpuWork> across ground
[12:17] <UpuWork> so its about 17km from last point
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[12:17] <jdtanner_> Ok...we are stuck behind a tractor now... So no hurry
[12:18] <UpuWork> which means its way furthe than the prediction
[12:18] <UpuWork> that prediction line is 10km
[12:18] <UpuWork> long
[12:19] <jdtanner_> Ok...care to guess :)
[12:19] <daveake> UpuWork iIf you look at the ascent, in the first 17 minutes it did about 8km
[12:19] <UpuWork> well if someone wants to check my maths
[12:19] <UpuWork> Kenslow Wood
[12:20] <UpuWork> but tbh the error margin is huge
[12:20] <daveake> So if the wind oop north was same strength then I reckon it travelled a shorter distance than the prediction
[12:20] <UpuWork> Well last recorded location was 53.0692669,-1.54307
[12:20] <fsphil> the predictor is possibly assuming a slower descent near the ground
[12:20] <fsphil> a foil might not do that
[12:20] <UpuWork> At 12:35:23 it was at 53.0544003,-1.5258823
[12:20] <jdtanner_> Got a grid ref? We might as well go and have a look
[12:20] <UpuWork> Last recorded 12:39:49
[12:21] <daveake> Also the direction at the start of ascent was a bit north of where the redictor says for the landing
[12:21] <UpuWork> OS or Long /lat ?
[12:21] <jdtanner_> OS :)
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[12:21] <UpuWork> ok 2 mins
[12:22] <UpuWork> so in 4mins 26 secs
[12:22] <UpuWork> it ddi 2km
[12:22] <UpuWork> it covered 2km
[12:22] <daveake> So my poersonal prediction is for 1 mile east of where spacenear says
[12:22] <UpuWork> thats the area I think
[12:22] <UpuWork> ok 1 sec
[12:23] <UpuWork> OS coords coming up
[12:23] <Randomskk> basically your search area is miles wide
[12:23] <UpuWork> yep
[12:23] <jdtanner_> Lol
[12:23] <daveake> yep
[12:23] <Randomskk> and no radio df
[12:23] <daveake> yep
[12:23] <daveake> So a nice day out :D
[12:23] <Randomskk> if it's lying in a field you might get lucky :P
[12:23] <fsphil> there's no harm in trying :)
[12:23] <Randomskk> I've not found payloads 5m from where I stood /with/ radio
[12:23] <Randomskk> it took about 20min to finally spot the bright orange cuhte
[12:24] <daveake> I'd just drive slowly down all the roads in the area with passenger staring into the fields (and up the trees)
[12:24] <Randomskk> yea
[12:24] <Randomskk> or get out and walk it for that nice-day-out thing
[12:24] <daveake> I walked into PAVA before I saw it :)
[12:24] <Randomskk> hehe
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[12:26] <daveake> Just for the record, my entry for the sweepstake is 53.1225, -1.6208
[12:26] <UpuWork> OS cords...
[12:26] <fsphil> I've never seen as many flat animals as in the dales
[12:26] <UpuWork> still working on it
[12:26] <fsphil> there was even a deer at the side of one road
[12:26] <daveake> what's that size that gives OS co-ords?
[12:26] <daveake> site
[12:27] <jdtanner_> Streetmap
[12:27] <daveake> got it ta
[12:27] <UpuWork> OSGB36 Grid ref: SK 2547458437
[12:27] <UpuWork> +/- 5 miles
[12:27] <Randomskk> hah
[12:28] <jdtanner_> Ha ha
[12:28] <eroomde> fsphil: my copy of Safer C just arrived
[12:28] <eroomde> a quick flick through lookd good
[12:29] <eroomde> it is also signed by the author, an unexpected perk of going 2nd hand
[12:29] <UpuWork> lots of little roads round there and flat fields
[12:29] <UpuWork> good luck
[12:29] <UpuWork> wish you'd put 2 x AA on it now daveake :)
[12:30] <daveake> lol
[12:30] <daveake> I was thinking that yesterday!
[12:30] <daveake> Might have got further too
[12:30] <UpuWork> indeed
[12:31] <UpuWork> never fear I'm working on a 1.8v version
[12:31] <Darkside> Dear Mr Jessop,
[12:31] <Darkside> By changing the way you travelled, you helped support a great Olympic Games and kept London moving. Without you, the past two weeks wouldnt have been possible.
[12:31] <Darkside> no probs, TFL
[12:32] <eroomde> i guess we owe you a few bn huh
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[12:33] <daveake> Dear Mr Jessop. By being part of one of our colonies you helped set the bar with the Sydney Olympics, thus inspiring us to do much, much better. Thankyou"
[12:33] <Darkside> lol
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[12:37] <jdtanner_> Bugger all...calling it a day :)
[12:37] <UpuWork> lol
[12:37] <UpuWork> thanks for looking much appreciated
[12:38] <jdtanner_> No probs :)
[12:38] <number10> Darkside: you'll have to wait another few weeks before coming over so as not to cause problems with the paralympic games
[12:39] <Darkside> can't do that starfox
[12:39] <Darkside> i arrive friday night :P
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[12:44] <griffonbot> Received email: Mervyn Huggett "Re: [UKHAS] Re: SDR + Front End Filter/Amp"
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[12:47] <griffonbot> Received email: Anthony Stirk "Re: [UKHAS] Re: SDR + Front End Filter/Amp"
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[12:51] <UpuWork> What time do you land Darkside and where ?
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[13:02] Nick change: signaleleven -> signaleleven_off
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[13:09] <BackHive> hello ?
[13:10] <SpeedEvil> hey
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[13:10] <Randomskk> UpuWork: around?
[13:13] <BackHive> hey guys, I just recieved a Ublox Max 6 for Arduino jobbie from HAB... do any of you know about software for this to test it out ?
[13:14] <Randomskk> u-center is good if you have a way to hook it up to your PC
[13:16] <BackHive> I seen screen caps of u-center in an online pdf doc. How is the Max6 Ublox hooked up to a PC ?
[13:16] <jdtanner> Back from the deepest darkest Peaks...we found bugger all.
[13:16] <MrScienceMan> BackHive: you can attach it to the andruino and have it print the NMAE strings to Serial
[13:16] <MrScienceMan> then read them in the PC
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[13:17] <MrScienceMan> s/in/on
[13:17] <BackHive> Well thats a bit beyond my head at the moment, is there a tutorial for that around Scienceman ?
[13:18] <MrScienceMan> http://ava.upuaut.net/store/wiki/doku.php?id=levelconvertor
[13:18] <daveake> Read up on Arduino serial in/out. Software-wise that's all you need
[13:18] <MrScienceMan> once you've uploaded the code, just select the arduino serial from u-center
[13:20] <BackHive> OK, guys, many thanks.. I'll look into that.. many thanks.
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[13:24] <griffonbot> Received email: Dave Hibberd "Re: [UKHAS] Re: SDR + Front End Filter/Amp"
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[14:29] <cjdavies> I'm not interested in high altitude projects per se, but I understand there is some knowledge of GPS receivers, particularly the uBlox MAX-6 here?
[14:30] <Randomskk> I guess so
[14:30] <cjdavies> Can anybody comment on the accuracy of the receiver? It's hard to glean real-world performance from the datasheet spec...
[14:31] <Randomskk> well that depends massively on your antenna and environment really
[14:31] <Randomskk> basically it's very good. it's as good as anything else you're likely to buy off the shelf. it's also a nice receiver with a good interface and decent power consumption
[14:31] <Randomskk> if you're looking for some kind of accuracy figure, maybe you'll get 3m of horizontal accuracy in optimal conditions
[14:31] <cjdavies> this seems to be the consensus from what I've read, which is good
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[14:32] <cjdavies> though I fear I may have to plump for full RTK to get the accuracy I need
[14:32] <cjdavies> though I guess I won't know for sure until I buy it & try :)
[14:33] <Randomskk> what's your application?
[14:33] <Randomskk> the rtk is more about increasing accuracy during loss of GPS reception
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[14:33] <Randomskk> though admittedly I've not looked into it or bought one
[14:35] <UpuWork> whats the application cjdavies ?
[14:36] <UpuWork> Afternoon Hitesh
[14:36] <Randomskk> UpuWork: off the top of your head do you know the gain figure for those preamps? and if they can be powered off the coax?
[14:36] <UpuWork> yes they can and its...
[14:36] <UpuWork> 20db off the top of my head
[14:37] <UpuWork> sec
[14:37] <Randomskk> hmm
[14:37] <Randomskk> incidentally know anything handy that'd inject the power? :P
[14:37] <UpuWork> The HABAmp has a number of power options. The LNA itself runs from 3-5V without any biasing resistors, and draws 56mA. Power can be supplied either using a bias-tee (power up the coaxial cable), or on a 2-pin header.
[14:37] <Randomskk> 60m of RG-213 for the colienar up a 30m mast at EMF looks like it'd probably want a preamp
[14:37] <UpuWork> Optionally, a low-dropout regulator can be placed on the PCB, allowing the board to be supplied with a higher voltage (>6V).
[14:37] <UpuWork> The SAW filter introduces a 2dB insertion loss, resulting in an gain of 19dB over the area of 70cm commonly used for HAB operations (433-435MHz). It's 3dB bandwidth is approximately 7MHz.
[14:37] <UpuWork> http://rfhead.net/
[14:38] <Randomskk> perfect
[14:38] <Randomskk> hmm
[14:38] <Randomskk> debating what to do about this.
[14:38] <Randomskk> putting a preamp on would mean no one can transmit using it
[14:38] <Randomskk> which seems a shame
[14:38] <Randomskk> without even more complication at the masthead anyway
[14:38] <UpuWork> yeah transmitting is a no no
[14:39] <Randomskk> 10dB loss over 60m of RG-213 :(
[14:39] natrium42 (~alexei@d24-150-92-187.home.cgocable.net) got netsplit.
[14:39] astevens (~astevens@caosvm2.osuosl.org) got netsplit.
[14:40] <UpuWork> yeah
[14:40] <UpuWork> Westflex ftw..
[14:40] <Randomskk> how much does 60m of westflex cost >_>
[14:40] <Randomskk> (also how much loss would that be?)
[14:40] <UpuWork> I think its 7db over 100 meters
[14:40] <fsphil> those masthead amps with the tx bypass are silly expensive
[14:40] <Randomskk> I could probably look those things up myself actually
[14:40] <Randomskk> fsphil: yea exactly :(
[14:40] <UpuWork> 60 meters ? double RF213
[14:40] <UpuWork> RG I suspect
[14:41] <Randomskk> hmm ok
[14:41] <Randomskk> westflex 103?
[14:41] <UpuWork> http://www.nevadaradio.co.uk/cables-leads-plugs/antenna-cable/westflex-103-drum
[14:41] <UpuWork> 432 MHz: 7.5dB per 100 meters
[14:41] <Randomskk> 4.56dB loss for 60m of W103
[14:41] <Randomskk> 20.75 for RG58 lol
[14:41] <Randomskk> 1.56 for LDF4-50A
[14:41] <Randomskk> :o
[14:41] <UpuWork> central core is very thick you will need special N-Types
[14:41] <fsphil> nice
[14:42] <Randomskk> fun fun. I bet it's loads of fun to put a connector on too
[14:42] <UpuWork> no I hate it
[14:42] <UpuWork> everything melts before the solder does
[14:42] <Randomskk> I had enough trouble trying to put PL259 on RG213
[14:42] <Randomskk> sigh
[14:42] <Randomskk> need crimp connectors really. soldering is silly
[14:43] <Randomskk> 4.5dB loss over 60m
[14:43] <Randomskk> at 434
[14:43] <Randomskk> uh.
[14:43] <Randomskk> yes, that's what I just said. wrong window >_>
[14:43] <fsphil> nobody noticed
[14:43] <Randomskk> good good
[14:44] <fsphil> I can't find the loss for rg213, websites keep giving it in db/feet
[14:44] <Randomskk> hmm well that's one option I guess
[14:44] <Randomskk> it's not cheap though.
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[14:44] <Randomskk> still
[14:44] <Randomskk> 4dB you could do without the preamp probably
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[14:50] <eroomde> cjdavies: yo
[14:50] <eroomde> i have been doing some gps work recently in a bit more depth
[14:50] <eroomde> canot promise i can help but are you able to say a little more about the application?
[14:50] <cjdavies> ah sorry, was looking at another channel
[14:51] <cjdavies> I'm working on a modified Second Life client that controls your position with a 3D reconstruction of a ruined building as you walk around the real-life ruins
[14:52] <cjdavies> I already have bearing & orientation via a tilt-compensated magnetometer/accelerometer setup with an Arduino, I'm hoping to attach a decent GPS receiver to the Arduino as well & plug the readings in for position
[14:52] <cjdavies> within* a 3D construction
[14:52] <Randomskk> you might find it works okay just as it is
[14:53] <cjdavies> yeah if it can achieve the 2m that it claims in the spec for SBAS augmented, it should just about be okay
[14:54] <eroomde> mmm
[14:54] <eroomde> sbas might make assumptions about for example being static
[14:55] <cjdavies> well it claims 2.5m without sbas... so it shouldn't be a great loss
[14:55] <UpuWork> Its accurate to 2.5 meters I'm sure
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[14:55] <UpuWork> just get a module and test it
[14:55] <cjdavies> that's good to hear
[14:55] <cjdavies> filling out the requisition form now
[14:55] <eroomde> it might not be accurate to 2.5 if you're walking around with it constantly
[14:56] <eroomde> but yeah, test it
[14:56] <UpuWork> whats your microcontroller ?
[14:56] <UpuWork> or what voltage are you running the logic on ?
[14:57] <cjdavies> I'll be buying it with a breakout with 5v to 3.3v conversion for Arduino
[14:57] <cjdavies> don't fancy soldering SMD myself
[14:57] <UpuWork> ok
[14:57] <eroomde> your mind is about to be changed
[14:57] Action: cjdavies waits in anticipation
[14:57] Action: UpuWork also waits :)
[14:58] <eroomde> that was a cue for you UpuWork
[14:58] <eroomde> :)
[14:58] <UpuWork> If you're considering purchasing from my shop (ava.upuaut.net/store)
[14:58] Action: cjdavies was just typing a message to UpuWork ....
[14:58] <UpuWork> I'm away on business for the next few days so it won't get shipped until Friday or possibly Monday
[14:58] <cjdavies> literally just
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[14:59] <eroomde> also cjdavies the other thing to remember is that given you have an accelerometer too, you suddenly have options to improve the combined position and attitude estimation
[14:59] <eroomde> you can use the accelerometers to imprve the estimation of the position that is based on the gps data
[14:59] <Randomskk> complicated options
[14:59] <Randomskk> :P
[14:59] <UpuWork> your application may benefit from an active antenna solution as well
[14:59] <UpuWork> however try it with a passive first
[14:59] <eroomde> free from a hardware pov options
[14:59] <eroomde> but yes, that involves maths
[14:59] <cjdavies> UpuWork: that won't be a problem, I have to translate some backend code from C# into C++ & my serial I/O framework before I can use it anyway
[15:00] <UpuWork> no problems they are in stock anyway
[15:00] <cjdavies> UpuWork: if the order goes through, you'll most likely see it coming from St Andrews University
[15:00] <UpuWork> No problems
[15:00] <cjdavies> eroomde: intriguing :)
[15:00] <cjdavies> though maths...
[15:00] Action: cjdavies has been relearning all sorts of trig recently
[15:00] <eroomde> cjdavies: anyway, if the idea of a kalman filter doesn't want to make you tune and flee, consider that you can use state estimation techniques to probably quite nicely improve the estimate of your position
[15:00] <eroomde> turn and flee*
[15:01] <Randomskk> definitely makes me wanna tune.
[15:01] <cjdavies> UpuWork: can the passive antenna be replaced by an active one on the breakout board, or is it a more involved affair?
[15:01] <cjdavies> eroomde: not heard of such a thing, so not scared until I google it ;)
[15:02] <UpuWork> not really but I have a PCB that will take an active antenna
[15:02] <eroomde> ok. well, maybe leave it for now
[15:02] <eroomde> wait till you get the hardware shaken down
[15:02] <eroomde> then you can have a stab at th sensor fusiion
[15:02] <UpuWork> but its designed for 3.3v
[15:02] <UpuWork> I'm redoing the Arduino/5V board with a Sarantel Sl1204R
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[15:03] <cjdavies> tbh I expect the passive antenna will probably be good enough
[15:04] <cjdavies> should just get it & do some real world testing
[15:04] <cjdavies> only way to know for sure
[15:04] <UpuWork> the Sarantel's are designed to be body worn
[15:04] <cjdavies> implications?
[15:05] <UpuWork> they have been designed for people to wear them so probably give superior performance over antennas that haven't been designed for this
[15:05] <UpuWork> I don't work from Sarantel I just read this blurb from their website so take it with a pinch of sales salt
[15:06] <cjdavies> righto, was thinking that maybe 'body worn' meant they might be more succeptible to surrounding RF from other components
[15:06] <cjdavies> as one doesn't usually plaster oneself in a fine mesh of electronics... but you never know...
[15:06] <UpuWork> http://www.sarantel.com/products
[15:07] <UpuWork> Sarantels revolutionary ceramic filtering antennas offer dramatically improved performance over existing antenna designs, resulting in a clearer signal, better range and a 90 per cent reduction in the amount of signal radiation absorbed by the body. Because of their smaller size and higher capabilities, Sarantel's antennas enable manufacturers to create innovative wireless products
[15:07] <UpuWork> for the GPS, Satellite Radio and Satellite phone markets.
[15:07] <cjdavies> sounds fancy
[15:07] <cjdavies> must be good ;)
[15:07] <UpuWork> sounds like sales waffle to me but they work for us
[15:07] <cjdavies> good enough then :)
[15:08] <cjdavies> do you have an 'official' email address I can put on my requisition form to keep the university happy?
[15:08] <UpuWork> yeah PM
[15:08] <cjdavies> cheers
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[15:11] <UpuWork> then when you've done developing positioning modules for a game where people with no lives have virtual sex come do something interesting and launch a balloon :)
[15:11] <cjdavies> oh I hate Second Life :)
[15:11] <Randomskk> haha oh, Second Life
[15:11] <cjdavies> I realise it's a dead/dying platform that completely failed to meet the hype
[15:12] <cjdavies> but it's a convenient platform for research sometimes
[15:12] <Randomskk> last I heard it had pretty flat concurrent user count
[15:12] <eroomde> augmented reality specs too?
[15:12] <Randomskk> they called it 'sustaining' or something
[15:12] <cjdavies> we don't even use Second Life itself, we run our own OpenSim servers
[15:12] <Randomskk> is opensim still c#?
[15:12] <cjdavies> yup
[15:13] <cjdavies> for the Mono compatibility
[15:14] <eroomde> c# being touted for its cross platform capaibility
[15:14] <eroomde> what is the world coming to
[15:14] <cjdavies> 'cross platform' when it comes to programming languages is invariably always bullshit
[15:14] <cjdavies> Web-based stuff is probably the best option for true cross platform compatibility these days
[15:14] <Randomskk> once upon a time I think I was even on the contributors list for opensim
[15:14] <cjdavies> as long as you stick to things like HTML5 rather than Flash...
[15:15] <Randomskk> apparently not any more
[15:15] <Randomskk> I wrote approximately one function admittedly
[15:15] <cjdavies> 'approximately' one? :D
[15:15] <Randomskk> might have been two.
[15:15] <Randomskk> might not have been opensim per se either but one of those earlier similar projects
[15:15] <Randomskk> can't really remember any more
[15:17] Action: Randomskk shrugs
[15:17] <Randomskk> long ago.
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[15:40] <Hix> Upu - you about?
[15:41] <UpuWork> hi Hix
[15:41] <Hix> Hi, looking for some advice on u-blox and thinking you the man.
[15:41] <UpuWork> well there are many who I'm sure could help but shoot
[15:42] <cjdavies> UpuWork: right, you should be getting an order for a ublox max 6 through today or tomorrow probably :)
[15:42] <Hix> looking for a module that doesn't need programming every time it starts seems that LEA-6H and 6N have flash http://goo.gl/oE50F
[15:42] <UpuWork> no problems cjdavies thanks , if they don't like paypal we take credit card over the phone
[15:43] <UpuWork> you can add flash to the MAX-6 or a battery
[15:43] <Hix> am i correct that once programmed they will store the config?
[15:43] <UpuWork> they keep their config with a battery
[15:43] <Hix> It's something I'm making for someone but don't want the maintenance contract :)
[15:44] <UpuWork> stick a battery on it
[15:44] <UpuWork> job done
[15:44] <UpuWork> the data sheet advises which I2C EEPROMS to uswe
[15:44] <UpuWork> use
[15:44] <Hix> So if i could permanently store config so after batt change it'd be straight back to stock
[15:44] <Randomskk> Hix: I'd put an I2C EEPROM on it
[15:44] <Randomskk> then you can tell the module to write config there
[15:44] <Randomskk> for any of them including MAX and NEO etc
[15:44] <Randomskk> then at every boot it reads config from that
[15:45] <Randomskk> battery or no
[15:45] <Hix> ok I'll look into EEPROMs
[15:45] <UpuWork> its i the data sheet with suggested parts
[15:45] <Hix> cheers guys - always a good source of help.
[15:45] <Hix> the more stuff I play around with the closer I get to a tracker that's ghonna work
[15:45] <Laurenceb> Randomskk: does it only access epprom at boot?
[15:45] <Hix> *gonna
[15:46] <Laurenceb> im wondering if you could have a miocro on there and use some eeprom for storage
[15:46] <Randomskk> idk, maybe
[15:46] <Laurenceb> would simplify pcb design
[15:47] <Laurenceb> atm i just do usb config in software
[15:47] <Laurenceb> *ubx
[15:47] <Hix> would EEPROM work for a passive device with no chip controlling it?
[15:48] <Randomskk> yes
[15:48] <Randomskk> that's how it's meant to be done
[15:48] <Hix> ahh cool
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[15:51] <Hix> UpuWork: do you have a link to the EEPROM suggestion sheet? Struggling on u-blox.com
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[16:13] <Upu> http://www.u-blox.com/images/downloads/Product_Docs/LEA-6_NEO-6_MAX-6_HardwareIntegrationManual_%28GPS.G6-HW-09007%29.pdf
[16:13] <Upu> Page 15-16
[16:14] <Hix> Upu: Ripper!!
[16:14] <Hix> cheers
[16:21] <Hix> http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/eeprom-memory-chips/6879158/ is the RS part number to save anyone searching
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[16:46] <griffonbot> Received email: MikeB "Re: [UKHAS] Re: SDR + Front End Filter/Amp"
[16:46] Lunar_Lander_ (~gd-compto@p54A0647D.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #highaltitude.
[16:46] <Lunar_Lander_> hello
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[16:53] <Lunar_Lander_> I found a possible reason for the temperature sensor failing
[16:53] <Lunar_Lander_> I put the sensor up on the breadboard and ran it successfully with Arduino Uno and Pro Mega
[16:53] <Lunar_Lander_> and then discovered that somehow the sensor socket gets 0 Volt
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[17:16] <griffonbot> Received email: Ed Moore "Re: [UKHAS] Re: SDR + Front End Filter/Amp"
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[17:17] <griffonbot> Received email: David Akerman "Re: [UKHAS] Re: SDR + Front End Filter/Amp"
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[17:21] <Lunar_Lander_> hi daveake andrew_apex_
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[17:43] <griffonbot> Received email: Ed Moore "Re: [UKHAS] Re: SDR + Front End Filter/Amp"
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[17:46] <fsphil> just had a rather impressive thunderstorm pass overhead
[17:46] <fsphil> lots of activity
[17:46] <eroomde> nice
[17:46] <Lunar_Lander_> hey fsphil eroomde
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[17:49] <eroomde> hey Lunar_Lander_
[17:49] <Lunar_Lander_> I found out something
[17:49] <Lunar_Lander_> my DS18B20 socket gets 0 Volts somehow
[17:50] <daveake> If that's the 0V pin, that's good
[17:50] <eroomde> ok let's work through this
[17:51] <eroomde> Lunar_Lander_: so
[17:51] <eroomde> it has 3 pins
[17:51] <Lunar_Lander_> yes
[17:51] <eroomde> which os the pins has 0V on it?
[17:51] <Lunar_Lander_> the leftmost and rightmost
[17:51] <Lunar_Lander_> i.e. there is no voltage on the VCC pin
[17:52] <eroomde> i don;t know what way round your DS is so that doesn't help me so much
[17:52] <eroomde> but regardless, those 2 pins are GND and VDD
[17:52] <eroomde> so
[17:52] <Lunar_Lander_> yea
[17:52] <eroomde> you are expecting 0V on GND right?
[17:52] <daveake> http://docs-europe.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/078b/0900766b8078b130.pdf
[17:52] <Lunar_Lander_> yes
[17:52] <eroomde> so that's fine and as it should be, agreed
[17:53] <Lunar_Lander_> yea
[17:53] <eroomde> is this on a breadboard atm?
[17:54] <Lunar_Lander_> no, I made a stripboard for all the components, made a power rail and ran wires for VCC and GND to the sockets for each device
[17:54] <eroomde> ok cool
[17:54] <eroomde> so, as far as you know, the VDD pin of the DS18B20 should be electrically connected to your VCC supply
[17:54] <Lunar_Lander_> yeah, and that is the thing
[17:55] <Lunar_Lander_> a wire is placed that way
[17:55] <Lunar_Lander_> but there is no voltage getting through
[17:55] <eroomde> ok
[17:55] <eroomde> so just to check, you have a multimeter and you have checked that you have a voltage between VCC where it comes into your strip board, and gnd?
[17:55] <Lunar_Lander_> yeah
[17:56] <eroomde> what is the voltage?
[17:56] <Lunar_Lander_> there is a regulator at the beginning
[17:56] <Lunar_Lander_> we put in about 5 V
[17:56] <Lunar_Lander_> and get 3.3V
[17:56] <eroomde> ok great. and you can confirm right now that it is correctly outputting 3.3V from the regulator?
[17:57] <Lunar_Lander_> It is at the lab
[17:57] <Lunar_Lander_> but there is one thing
[17:57] <Lunar_Lander_> at that power rail we made we get 3.3V
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[17:57] <Lunar_Lander_> also at like the GPS socket for example
[17:57] <Lunar_Lander_> but when I measured the output pin of the regulator directly there was something like 1.6V
[17:59] <eroomde> Lunar_Lander_: so, your regulator output voltage is 1.6V?
[17:59] <Lunar_Lander_> that is what the DMM said
[17:59] <eroomde> it sounds like something is pulling too much current
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[17:59] <Lunar_Lander_> OK
[17:59] <eroomde> what is on your board, and can you unplug stuff?
[17:59] <Lunar_Lander_> we got a green LED with a 150 Ohm resistor on that line
[18:00] <eroomde> it's best to tackle these problems one step at a time
[18:00] <Lunar_Lander_> yeah when I tested that actually only the LED was on and the DS18B20
[18:00] <eroomde> ok
[18:00] <eroomde> so was there 1.6V at VDD on the DS18B20?
[18:01] <Lunar_Lander_> on the regulator it said 1.6V, at the DS18B20 it read 0 V
[18:01] <daveake> Where did you measure the 3.3V then?
[18:01] <eroomde> yes, this is what i am wondering. you said you've actually measured 3.3V coming out of the regulator, when did it become 1.6?
[18:01] <Randomskk> number10: SD card received, thanks very much!
[18:01] <Lunar_Lander_> well, this is a bit hard to explain
[18:01] <Lunar_Lander_> let me try
[18:02] <eroomde> do
[18:02] <daveake> I'm all ears
[18:02] <Lunar_Lander_> I got these sockets for GPS and BMP085 and so on
[18:02] <Lunar_Lander_> but they were not plugged in
[18:02] <Lunar_Lander_> I checked the VCC and GND pins of these and got 3.3V
[18:02] <number10> great Randomskk
[18:02] <eroomde> ok, so the regulator drops to 1.6V when you plug one of your devices in?
[18:02] <Lunar_Lander_> and when I got the 1.6V, I was putting the one probe to the GND pin of the regulator and the other to the Vout pin of it
[18:03] <Lunar_Lander_> it seems so
[18:03] <daveake> So from that what do you think might be happening?
[18:03] <eroomde> so it sounds like there might be an error in the way you have wired up the sockets, causing something to short
[18:03] <Lunar_Lander_> there is the battery measuring circuit in front of the regulator, i.e. one resistor from the Vin to the side where the sensing wire runs and from that another resistor goes to GND
[18:03] <Lunar_Lander_> I think that might be a reason too
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[18:04] <eroomde> Lunar_Lander_: do you have a circuit diagram?
[18:04] <eroomde> including the values of these resistors?
[18:04] <Lunar_Lander_> sorry, not a real diagram, only a sort of "map" on where the things are on the board, does that help too?
[18:04] <Lunar_Lander_> resistors are 12 k and 10 k
[18:04] <eroomde> send me whatever you have
[18:05] <Lunar_Lander_> one moment
[18:08] <Lunar_Lander_> http://s.gullipics.com/image/l/6/q/5ztodj-jb6wt7-x5vc/CircuitPlanLatestVersion.jpeg
[18:09] <daveake> Lunar Where is Vin on that?
[18:10] <daveake> i.e. power from your power supply or batteries
[18:10] <Lunar_Lander_> can you see the gray and red square above where it says "Regulator"?
[18:10] <daveake> of course
[18:11] <Lunar_Lander_> there is where we installed the input
[18:11] <daveake> and ....
[18:11] <daveake> Which the res or the grey?
[18:11] <daveake> red
[18:11] <Lunar_Lander_> red is VCC and gray is ground
[18:12] <Lunar_Lander_> see the top right where the colours are explained
[18:12] <daveake> No, that says Vcc
[18:12] <daveake> I'm asking about V *IN* *to* the regulator not Vcc *out*
[18:13] <Lunar_Lander_> yea sorry
[18:13] <Lunar_Lander_> above the regulator
[18:13] <Lunar_Lander_> my one teammate used the same symbol for that
[18:13] <daveake> Shoot him
[18:13] <eroomde> dead
[18:14] <daveake> OK, so let's get this right. The reg has 3 pins. Left one is Vin that magically appears from nowhere. Centre is VOut which is your Vcc. Third is GND. Correct?
[18:14] <eroomde> Lunar_Lander_: so, it's is definitely the case that, please confirm
[18:14] <eroomde> 1) all you have on there is the battery sense resistor, the regulator, and DS18fjkd and the LED
[18:14] <Lunar_Lander_> one second please
[18:15] <Lunar_Lander_> yes
[18:15] <eroomde> yes to who?
[18:16] <Lunar_Lander_> yes to you eroomde
[18:16] <Lunar_Lander_> there are the devices you listed
[18:16] <Lunar_Lander_> and the pinout you mentioned is correct as you mentioned it
[18:17] <eroomde> ok
[18:17] <eroomde> so
[18:17] <eroomde> it works fine until you put the temp sensor in
[18:17] <eroomde> are you sure that you re putting the temp sensor in the right way round?
[18:17] <Lunar_Lander_> yes
[18:17] <Lunar_Lander_> the arduino says basically that it cannot find the sensor
[18:17] <Lunar_Lander_> and the pin is correct and everything
[18:18] <eroomde> you're sure of that
[18:18] <Lunar_Lander_> yes
[18:18] <daveake> Lunar When exactly does the 3.3V line drop to 1.6V?
[18:18] <eroomde> ahve you ever tried the temp sensor backwards?
[18:19] <daveake> Answer that and you will be closer to getting this thing working
[18:20] <Lunar_Lander_> when I apply the DMM probes to the regulator direclty
[18:20] <Lunar_Lander_> *directly
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[18:22] <daveake> Lunar Fill in the gap: "I measure the voltage at the regulator and it's 3.3V. I then do _______ and at the same point it measure 1.6V"
[18:22] <griffonbot> Received email: Steve Aerospace "Re: [UKHAS] Re: SDR + Front End Filter/Amp"
[18:22] <Lunar_Lander_> I didn't do anything, it just measured the 1.6V when the DS18B20 was in the board, I didn't try to measure without it
[18:23] <daveake> OK, I'll try a different way. What's the difference between when you measured 1.6V and when you measured 3.3V?
[18:23] <eroomde> are you measuring from the same two test points in both cases?
[18:23] <Lunar_Lander_> OK wait
[18:24] <Lunar_Lander_> that strange 1.6V reading appeared today
[18:24] <daveake> Ah, Mondays. Electronics never works on Mondays.
[18:24] <Lunar_Lander_> when we last measured 3.3V on there that was some time ago, inbetween we added that battery resistor stuff
[18:24] <Lunar_Lander_> and the Cutdown stuff
[18:24] <daveake> Ah, now we're getting closer to filling in the ________
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[18:25] <eroomde> Lunar_Lander_: is the cutdown stuff part of the circuit (electrically) when you tested it and it showed 1.6V?
[18:25] <Lunar_Lander_> the MOSFET is connected to the common ground
[18:25] <Lunar_Lander_> but the lipoly battery that connects to it wasn't connected
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[18:26] <eroomde> so the only point of contact between the cutdown bit and the rest of the circuit is that bit of wire connecting mosfet gnd to GND
[18:27] <Lunar_Lander_> yeah
[18:27] <Lunar_Lander_> that skewed wire you see on the diagram
[18:27] <eroomde> ok
[18:28] <eroomde> so you need to do the following
[18:28] <eroomde> power up the board
[18:28] <eroomde> without the DS75894
[18:28] <eroomde> or whatever it's called
[18:29] <Lunar_Lander_> ok
[18:29] <eroomde> put your multimeter between VCC and GND *ON THE SOCKET* of the ds sensor
[18:29] <eroomde> to check that 3.3V is across it
[18:29] <Lunar_Lander_> yes
[18:29] <eroomde> then plug the sensor in and perform the same test
[18:30] <daveake> ^^ exact same test *don't go measuring somewhere else*
[18:30] <daveake> don't change anything else. Change ONE thing at a time
[18:30] <eroomde> if it is not 3.3V, it is very likely your sensor is broken, IF YOU ARE SURE you have connected round right
[18:30] <Lunar_Lander_> OK
[18:30] <Lunar_Lander_> yeah orientation works
[18:30] <eroomde> also, the other thing is, I do not consider myself smart enough to work on a circuit of this complexity would a circuit diagram
[18:30] <Lunar_Lander_> and the sensor worked when I set it up on a breadboard for testing
[18:31] <eroomde> i would not attempt to design a board like this without having first done a circuit diagram either
[18:31] <Lunar_Lander_> yea
[18:31] <eroomde> i am just not brainy enough to manage it all in my head
[18:31] <eroomde> so
[18:31] <Lunar_Lander_> we sketched like one
[18:31] <eroomde> you might be much smarter than me and can cope
[18:31] <eroomde> but i think it would make it much easier for everyone if you had a diagram
[18:31] <daveake> You need to do circuit diagram first then layout
[18:31] <Lunar_Lander_> yea
[18:31] <daveake> Makes it MUCH easier for us to help, if nothing else
[18:32] <Lunar_Lander_> as I said we made like a sketch of a diagram which was not good I think
[18:32] <Lunar_Lander_> yea
[18:32] <eroomde> not good enough
[18:32] <eroomde> the diagram lets you check the theoretical circuit
[18:32] <Gadget-Mac> Evening all
[18:32] <eroomde> then you can check the layout matches the circuit
[18:32] <Lunar_Lander_> yea
[18:33] <eroomde> but, do that test
[18:33] <Lunar_Lander_> OK
[18:33] <eroomde> and lake we have both said, change NOTHING between the two measurements except putting the sensor in
[18:33] <Lunar_Lander_> thank you so far, we need to call a small break now
[18:33] <eroomde> NOTHING
[18:33] <Lunar_Lander_> OK
[18:34] <eroomde> if you change something else, i will rip your head off and shove something horrible down your throat
[18:34] <eroomde> i mean it
[18:34] <Lunar_Lander_> OHHHHHH
[18:34] <eroomde> i'm glad we understand each other
[18:34] <Lunar_Lander_> yea
[18:34] Action: Gadget-Mac feels like he's walked in on electronics 101 ?
[18:35] <nick_> Electronics 101: this is what we'll shove down your throat after ripping your head off for being stupid.
[18:35] <nick_> Here endeth the lesson.
[18:35] <eroomde> i must go now too
[18:36] <eroomde> good luck lunar lander!
[18:36] <eroomde> remember my promise x
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[18:38] <mclane> what happened to pava yesterday? recovered?
[18:38] #highaltitude: mode change '+o jonsowman' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
[18:38] Topic changed on #highaltitude by jonsowman!jonsowman@kryten.hexoc.com: Welcome to #highaltitude - discuss anything to do with high altitude projects (balloons, gliders, etc) - www.ukhas.org.uk
[18:38] #highaltitude: mode change '-o jonsowman' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
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[18:43] <Upu> no recovery mclane
[18:43] <Upu> was never meant to be
[18:44] <Upu> jdtanner did kindly go out and try locate it but wasn't sucessful
[18:51] <Lunar_Lander_> back
[18:51] <Lunar_Lander_> thanks eroomde
[18:51] <Lunar_Lander_> hello Upu
[18:51] <Upu> hi Lunar
[18:54] <Lunar_Lander_> how are you today?
[18:54] <fsphil> and more thunderstorms. nature is spoiling me today
[18:55] <Gadget-Mac> Anyone able to answer an SDR related question ?
[18:55] <fsphil> best to just ask, insteading of asking to ask :)
[18:55] <nick_> Am I allowed to ask to ask?
[18:56] <Gadget-Mac> fsphil: yeah I guess
[18:56] <Gadget-Mac> Just how much cpu power do I need for SDR with an EZCap dongle ?
[18:57] <Upu> A reasonable amount
[18:57] <Upu> more than a P4 3.0Ghz
[18:57] <Upu> less than an i7
[18:57] <Gadget-Mac> Okies
[18:57] <fsphil> my 1.9ghz laptop can run gqrx
[18:57] <fsphil> gets pretty toasty though
[18:57] <Gadget-Mac> Is that doing the decode as well
[18:58] <fsphil> so far I have not been at home when there's been a flight, so not yet
[18:58] <Gadget-Mac> Was wondering if the SDR part, and decode part could be split
[18:58] <fsphil> they are by nature of being two separate processes
[18:59] <fsphil> dl-fldigi needs to be configured to capture audio from the sdr app
[19:00] <fsphil> moar lightning
[19:00] <fsphil> this is sweet
[19:00] <Gadget-Mac> Ok. Was wondering if I could phyiscally split the two
[19:00] <Gadget-Mac> fsphil: You should build a lightning detector
[19:00] <fsphil> I have the parts Gadget-Mac
[19:00] <Upu> http://i.imgur.com/YtxaZ.jpg
[19:00] <Upu> thats 2 SDR's and an FT-817 all decoding at the same time
[19:00] <fsphil> just not the time :)
[19:00] <Gadget-Mac> Upu: Nice
[19:00] <Upu> Well FCD , EZCAP
[19:00] <Gadget-Mac> fsphil: What parts ?
[19:01] <fsphil> Gadget-Mac: the bits for this, http://www.blitzortung.org/Webpages/index.php?lang=en&page=2&subpage_0=12
[19:01] <Gadget-Mac> fsphil: Spooky looking at that a couple of weeks ago
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[19:05] <Gadget-Mac> Wonder if work would let me put an rx station on the roof http://goo.gl/maps/cJ60q
[19:09] <Upu> I could get one on this wonderful piece of architecture
[19:09] <Upu> http://goo.gl/maps/8iOS6
[19:10] <fsphil> glorious
[19:11] <Upu> http://goo.gl/maps/kCPRg note that portacabin on the roof
[19:11] <Gadget-Mac> lol
[19:11] <Upu> its part of 13 round manchester that form a ring
[19:11] <Upu> 10Gbe fibre with wireless backup
[19:11] <Gadget-Mac> Upu: What do they do ?
[19:12] <Upu> err
[19:12] <Upu> probably shouldn't say
[19:12] <fsphil> mafia
[19:13] <Upu> Kraken is in that box :)
[19:13] <Upu> its actually a self contained mini datacenter linked to Telecity, Williams House and UKGrid
[19:14] <Gadget-Mac> Cool stuff. Amazing what you can do these days
[19:15] <fsphil> that's not what they mean by cloud computing
[19:15] <Upu> lol
[19:16] <fsphil> looks like the storm is over here
[19:16] <fsphil> aww
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[19:29] <griffonbot> Received email: MikeB "Re: [UKHAS] Re: SDR + Front End Filter/Amp"
[19:31] <fsphil> I'd still love to try wspr on the ism hf bands
[19:31] <fsphil> even though the resolution isn't good enough for tracking
[19:34] <Lunar_Lander_> mike and the mechanics is cool!
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[19:36] <Randomskk> Upu: that's where kraken is? :o cool
[19:40] Action: Gadget-Mac looks blank. Whats kraken ?
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[19:41] <Randomskk> the server that hosts the predictor and distributed listener network etc
[19:41] <Gadget-Mac> Somewhat ironic
[19:41] <Randomskk> the first one was called nessie
[19:41] <Randomskk> then nessie got replaced
[19:43] <Gadget-Mac> Back in the 90's I was part responsible for a packet radio repeater that had an antenna on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lichfield_transmitting_station
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[19:47] <Elmar_PD3EM> GE all
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[19:54] <simrun> ooo
[19:54] <simrun> http://www.koko.uk.com/listings/beardyman-22-09-2012
[19:54] <simrun> on the night of ukhas conference
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[19:54] Nick change: [1]G8KNN_LT -> G8KNN_LT
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[20:04] <Lunar_Lander_> hello Elmar_PD3EM
[20:04] <Elmar_PD3EM> hi Lunar_Lander_ !
[20:04] <Lunar_Lander_> how are you today?
[20:06] <Elmar_PD3EM> Lunar_Lander_: quite busy... ;-)
[20:06] nigelvh (~nigel@173-160-168-86-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) joined #highaltitude.
[20:06] <Lunar_Lander_> yea
[20:06] <nigelvh> Afternoon
[20:06] <Lunar_Lander_> hey nigelvh
[20:06] <nigelvh> Howdy
[20:07] <Elmar_PD3EM> tracked a weather sonde yesterday ;-)
[20:07] <nigelvh> ooh
[20:07] <Lunar_Lander_> cool
[20:08] <nigelvh> One of these days I should figure out our local weather sonde schedule/frequency/whatnot.
[20:08] <Elmar_PD3EM> it was fun and we could find it in a field
[20:08] <Randomskk> generally 0000Z and 1200Z nigelvh
[20:08] <nigelvh> Still need to go find the frequency and whatnot, but yes, nice round times are common.
[20:09] <Randomskk> indeed :P
[20:09] <Randomskk> so the london science museum has a new Atmosphere section
[20:09] <Randomskk> with a weather balloon and a radiosonde on display
[20:09] <Elmar_PD3EM> QRG between 402 and 406 MHz
[20:09] <Randomskk> https://www.dropbox.com/s/5ud3jk9t1glpc2z/2012-08-12%2015.02.33.jpg
[20:09] <Randomskk> https://www.dropbox.com/s/kbk8e3sni8n2dzr/2012-08-12%2015.03.06.jpg
[20:09] <nigelvh> Elmar_PD3EM, I'm in the US. Specifically Washington. So I'll have to see what NOAA uses.
[20:10] <Elmar_PD3EM> nigelvh: that can be different
[20:10] <Lunar_Lander_> Elmar_PD3EM, nigelvh earlier I spoke here about my finding that my temperature sensor gets 0 Volts somehow on the board
[20:10] <nigelvh> Short?
[20:10] <Lunar_Lander_> that might be
[20:11] <Elmar_PD3EM> that's the one we found Randomskk
[20:11] <nigelvh> 0 generally means nothing or a short.
[20:12] <daveake> Apparently the 3.3V regulator was giving out 1.6V at the time ....
[20:12] <nigelvh> Sounds like a short.
[20:12] <nigelvh> Let me guess, maybe it was also hot. Perhaps smoking.
[20:12] <Lunar_Lander_> no
[20:13] <Lunar_Lander_> that didn't happen
[20:13] <daveake> I said apparenty
[20:13] <nigelvh> Well, the regulator could current limit, which would cause the low voltage without burning it up.
[20:13] <daveake> I said "apparently" because the supplied information doesn't completely add up
[20:14] <nigelvh> In summary Lunar_Lander_ look for shorts/opens.
[20:14] <Elmar_PD3EM> http://imgur.com/Trda9
[20:15] <Lunar_Lander_> yea
[20:15] <daveake> 0V at the sensor and 1.6V at the regulator would mean 1.6V being dropped between the two. Not possible if the two are connected by wire unless the current is a lot more than that regulator can supply. And yes something would get hot. So since those 2 things didn't happen then the facts as supplied are not correct either.
[20:15] <Lunar_Lander_> yea
[20:15] <Lunar_Lander_> I have to check that again the way eroomde said
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[20:17] <daveake> Lunar what is the power source for this circuit?
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[20:21] <daveake> It's a mystery
[20:22] <Lunar_Lander_> 3 Energizer Lithium AA
[20:22] <Laurenceb_> eroomde: in a good mood today?
[20:26] <Laurenceb_> cuz I had an idea for rockoon launch
[20:27] <daveake> Lunar So in testing you have those going to the regulator, and you've measured 3.3V or 1.6V coming out of the regulator?
[20:28] <daveake> Do you have a bench power supply? One with a current display? If so you should use that - it will help you know when there's a short somewhere.
[20:29] <SpeedEvil> current limiting is good too
[20:29] <daveake> yup
[20:30] <Laurenceb_> http://imagebin.org/index.php?mode=image&id=224462
[20:30] <daveake> And it avoids chasing a "problem" which is actually a flat battery
[20:30] <Lunar_Lander_> daveake, yes, that is true
[20:30] <Lunar_Lander_> and I got a power supply in the lab that shows current and voltage
[20:30] <SpeedEvil> if you expect the circuit to use 100ma, set it to not much more..
[20:30] <Lunar_Lander_> actually it is like limited by one of the parameters
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[20:31] <daveake> Use it, dear Lunar, use it
[20:31] <Lunar_Lander_> i.e. that there is a max voltage at a certain current
[20:31] <Lunar_Lander_> OK
[20:31] <daveake> max current at a certain voltage
[20:31] <Lunar_Lander_> yeah, either of those
[20:31] <Lunar_Lander_> depends on which knob you turn up first
[20:32] <nigelvh> Laurenceb_ that's a rather complicated design there.
[20:32] <daveake> correct. and for this you want to set the voltage to (say) 6V, and the current limit to a little above what you expect it to use
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[20:35] <nigelvh> That is something I need to invest in. I've got a variable power supply, but it doesn't have current limiting.
[20:35] <fsphil> I did but it stopped working :(
[20:35] <nigelvh> :(
[20:35] <daveake> Definitely worth having.
[20:36] <daveake> One of mine has fine and course controls, which are handy
[20:36] <nigelvh> Yeah, I use them in the lab at the university. Just haven't gotten around to buying one.
[20:42] <Lunar_Lander_> yea
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[21:30] <eroomde> Laurenceb_: i am all sweetness and light!
[21:30] <Laurenceb_> http://imagebin.org/index.php?mode=image&id=224462
[21:30] <Laurenceb_> i was inspired by an Israeli anti tank mortar
[21:30] <eroomde> that ias novel
[21:30] <eroomde> is*
[21:30] <eroomde> !
[21:31] <Laurenceb_> they use a chute
[21:31] <Laurenceb_> and it precesses around until it points at the target
[21:31] <eroomde> so, you spin up and unlock the bearing to keep it level despite swing?
[21:31] <eroomde> ah ok
[21:31] <Laurenceb_> im not sure how stable spin up will be
[21:31] <Laurenceb_> thats the only issue
[21:31] <Laurenceb_> due to lack of stabilisation of the rockoon body
[21:32] <Laurenceb_> radius is about 50cm to 1m for the asses
[21:32] <Laurenceb_> erm masses
[21:33] <Laurenceb_> maybe I should build a little scale model
[21:33] <nigelvh> That might be a good idea.
[21:34] <Laurenceb_> but yeah theres an Isreali thing thats like this but reversed, and is fired out of a mortar
[21:34] <Laurenceb_> then theres a little mm wave radar that searches for tanks
[21:34] <Randomskk> we'd be sure to include that on the rockoon, of course.
[21:35] <Laurenceb_> indeed
[21:35] <nigelvh> "Yes, I'd like permission to fly this rocket on a high altitude balloon, via a system I designed referenced from Isreali anti-tank weapon."
[21:35] <eroomde> oh that thing i have seen
[21:35] <eroomde> the think that pops out, turn, thrusts forward then does a shaped charge at the incoming rpg
[21:35] <eroomde> all in 1ms?
[21:36] <eroomde> one of the more impressive control systems i have ever seen
[21:36] <eroomde> lemme find the vid it's worth sharing
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[21:43] <eroomde> here we are
[21:43] <eroomde> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVIn_7fq2KE
[21:43] <eroomde> quite amazing
[21:44] <Laurenceb_> oh its american
[21:44] <Laurenceb_> sorry
[21:45] <Randomskk> the response speed is amazing
[21:45] <Randomskk> reminds me a little of the multiple kill vehicle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBMU6l6GsdM
[21:46] <eroomde> best named bit of hardware ever
[21:46] <Randomskk> ikr
[21:46] <Randomskk> fantastic
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[21:46] <Randomskk> hmm do I buy the £20 12V,5A PSU from farnell (UL approved) or the £8 one from eBay (only CE)
[21:47] <Randomskk> CE doesn't really reassure me much given as it's self-applied
[21:47] <eroomde> have you seen the old 60s icbm defense missile
[21:47] <eroomde> like the nike spring
[21:47] <eroomde> the literally had to launch and intercept mach 25 renetering warheads
[21:47] <Randomskk> crazy
[21:47] <eroomde> so they had liftoff accelerations of sort of 250G
[21:47] <eroomde> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsnkmpJhzlo
[21:48] <Randomskk> wow
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[21:48] <eroomde> itself armed with a thermonuclear warhead
[21:48] <eroomde> to just get close and detonate
[21:48] <Randomskk> fantastic
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[21:48] <eroomde> literally last line of defense stuff
[21:48] <Randomskk> missile-defense style
[21:48] <Randomskk> yup
[21:49] <Randomskk> good to have that level of defence I guess
[21:49] <eroomde> 0-Mach10 is 5s
[21:49] <eroomde> lolzor
[21:49] <Laurenceb_> thats the most insane missile ever for sure
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[21:49] <Randomskk> how did it control itself?
[21:49] <Randomskk> (did it..)?
[21:50] <Randomskk> fluid injection jet vanes
[21:50] <Randomskk> I see
[21:50] <Randomskk> 15 seconds from launch to nuclear detonation
[21:50] <Randomskk> and as you say, after 5 it's at mach 10
[21:50] <eroomde> ground in the loop control
[21:51] <Randomskk> via very powerful radio transmitters
[21:51] <eroomde> very
[21:51] <eroomde> i read a history of them, they had all sorts of problems with the really viscior rocket fueld creating signal blocking plasmas
[21:51] <Randomskk> amazing
[21:51] <Laurenceb_> hmm i think i was thinking of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sense_and_Destroy_ARMor
[21:51] <Laurenceb_> but it isnt gyroscopically stabilised
[21:51] <Randomskk> so anyone have any opinions to offer on the £20 PSU from Farnell with UL, or the £8 from eBay without?
[21:53] <Randomskk> no, good
[21:53] <daveake> What PSU is this?
[21:53] <Randomskk> 12V 5A for my lipo charger
[21:53] <eroomde> skin friction = 3200C on the sprint
[21:53] <Randomskk> !
[21:53] <daveake> Well, lipo overcharging can be "entertaining" ...
[21:54] <Randomskk> daveake: the charger itself is good
[21:54] <Lunar_Lander_> XD
[21:54] <Randomskk> and should prevent any overcharging
[21:54] <Randomskk> but I need a power supply for the charger
[21:54] <daveake> ah ok
[21:54] <eroomde> they only got round the plasma sheath problem by putting 1MW of TX down a 1 degree beam width phased array
[21:54] <Randomskk> crazy.
[21:54] <Randomskk> wait
[21:54] <Randomskk> I missed the M
[21:54] <Randomskk> holy shit
[21:54] <Randomskk> 1MW?!
[21:55] <nigelvh> Are you sure it wasn't 1.21 JiggaW?
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[21:55] <Laurenceb_> how did they generate that much power
[21:55] <Lunar_Lander_> XD!
[21:55] <nigelvh> (Come on Lunar_Lander_, you're slow on the obvious jokes)
[21:55] <Lunar_Lander_> I wasn't monitoring
[21:55] <Lunar_Lander_> DeLorean!
[21:55] <Laurenceb_> oh from the ground
[21:55] <Laurenceb_> i see
[21:55] <Lunar_Lander_> 88 mph!
[21:56] <Lunar_Lander_> Plutonium
[21:56] <eroomde> wow ok so i didn't know about HiBex
[21:56] <eroomde> and even more last ditch than sprint
[21:56] <eroomde> for warheads <20,000ft
[21:56] <eroomde> 400g acceleration
[21:56] <eroomde> jesus
[21:56] <Randomskk> videos clearly required
[21:57] <eroomde> looking
[21:58] <eroomde> the guidance system could produce lateral forces of 300g
[21:58] <eroomde> which was necessary to ctach manourvering reentry vehicles
[21:58] <eroomde> this is bonkers
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[21:58] <Randomskk> imagine being given that design spec
[21:58] <eroomde> i see him leave. he sucks ^
[21:58] <Randomskk> and that budget
[21:59] <eroomde> waste anything except time
[21:59] <eroomde> etc
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[22:00] <Randomskk> that's gotta be pretty seriously last-measure
[22:00] <Laurenceb_> there is another way to launch a rockoon
[22:00] <Randomskk> by the time you can hit it in 15s that warhead is awful close to home
[22:00] <Laurenceb_> http://regmedia.co.uk/2012/04/10/lohan_mission_summary_02.jpg
[22:00] <Laurenceb_> /troll
[22:02] <Randomskk> oh yea I now have the side camera video footage
[22:02] <Randomskk> so will try and put together a cut tomorrow with the guys manhandling the payload
[22:02] <Randomskk> still need to get the other camera off jonsowman though
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[22:21] <Randomskk> does superglue count as thread lock? :p
[22:22] <Laurenceb_> works well for me
[22:22] <Laurenceb_> im struggling to understand how the "lohan" project is even sane
[22:22] <Laurenceb_> i mean what is the "truss" even supposed to do
[22:23] <eroomde> in god we truss
[22:23] <Laurenceb_> heh
[22:23] <Laurenceb_> they have a triangulated truss but then a flimsy unsupported rod along the side that takes the load
[22:27] <eroomde> somewhat like this then http://www.flickr.com/photos/cuspaceflight/7316421758/in/photostream
[22:27] <Laurenceb_> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/01/03/lohan_thruster_update/
[22:27] <Laurenceb_> muhahaha
[22:28] <Laurenceb_> the fail is complete and utter
[22:28] <Laurenceb_> no your rod seems to be supported
[22:29] <daveake> I bet you say that to all the boys
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[22:30] <Laurenceb_> how dear
[22:30] <Laurenceb_> why did i know that was coming
[22:35] <Laurenceb_> owww
[22:35] <Laurenceb_> glass fibre brushes are lethal
[22:36] <Laurenceb_> ive got fibres embedded in my finger
[22:36] <Randomskk> :(
[22:37] <SpeedEvil> ow
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[22:39] <jcoxon> did PAVA2 really have an ascent rate of 1.0?
[22:39] <Laurenceb_> i can pull them out with tweezers luckily
[22:40] <daveake> jcoxon Yep
[22:40] <Laurenceb_> but if id let them go under the skin itd be nasty
[22:40] <daveake> 2 hours 7200m
[22:40] <jcoxon> odd that it didn't float
[22:40] <daveake> Yes, I was surprised
[22:41] <daveake> I timed it indoors and reckoned it was 0.7, but thatincluded some acceleration time
[22:41] <jcoxon> of course
[22:41] <jcoxon> hmmm why didn't it float
[22:41] <Randomskk> hey jcoxon could I run a thing by you real quick?
[22:41] <Randomskk> planning to do a pico launch at EMF
[22:42] <Randomskk> we'll even have a colinear on a 30m mast
[22:42] <Randomskk> got a pico payload (joey) which is like 50g with insulation and batteries or whatever
[22:42] <jcoxon> uhuh
[22:42] <daveake> Here's the exciting launch video :p http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBP3tgjI50g&lc=lv9wO6z25WkbgmD-b-1i6dlJ_j9O_8Do3gKibexxieI&feature=inbox
[22:42] <Randomskk> plan to buy a canister of party gas in the nearby area
[22:42] <Randomskk> and a foil balloon from steve perhaps
[22:42] <Randomskk> what crucial thing am I missing
[22:42] <daveake> a straw
[22:42] <jcoxon> daveake, yeah you broke rule 3
[22:43] <SpeedEvil> Party hat.
[22:43] <jcoxon> yeah a straw!
[22:43] <daveake> rule 3.... ?
[22:43] <jcoxon> Randomskk, there is a guide on teh wiki for filling
[22:43] <jcoxon> http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/projects:microballoons:faq
[22:43] <Randomskk> perfect.
[22:43] <Randomskk> I mean I do recall launching a few with you
[22:43] <jcoxon> not that link
[22:43] <daveake> Yeah, wasn't the best
[22:44] <jcoxon> Randomskk, http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/guides:filling_foil_balloons
[22:44] <Laurenceb_> tbh i dont think this pico float idea is very reliable
[22:44] <Laurenceb_> the envelopes arent good enough
[22:44] <Randomskk> yea I recall that from yours
[22:44] <Laurenceb_> perhaps we need something a little bit better using mylar
[22:44] <Randomskk> plastic tube required or straw works?
[22:44] <jcoxon> well i'm having fun finding that out Laurenceb
[22:44] <Laurenceb_> heh
[22:44] <jcoxon> Randomskk, straw works best
[22:44] <SpeedEvil> I wonder if it's the envelope, or the fill hole
[22:45] <Laurenceb_> the recovered ones showed seam failure?
[22:45] <SpeedEvil> ah
[22:45] <Laurenceb_> and film creep?
[22:45] <daveake> My recovered one burst near but not at the seam
[22:45] <Laurenceb_> the ascent profile seems to suggest envelope creep
[22:45] <jcoxon> oh actually they burst across
[22:45] <jcoxon> no at the seam
[22:45] <daveake> This one not recovered though
[22:45] <Laurenceb_> which you would expect if they used polyamide/nylon not mylar
[22:45] <Laurenceb_> as i have heard from some sources
[22:47] <jcoxon> once you've got float with these balloons it seems to be okay
[22:49] <Laurenceb_> have you used the same envelopes for all your flights?
[22:49] <jcoxon> yes
[22:49] <Laurenceb_> intriguing
[22:49] Action: Laurenceb_ zzz
[22:50] <jcoxon> night
[22:50] <jcoxon> the float window is quite tight it seems
[22:50] <jcoxon> but if you hit it then you've sorted
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[00:00] --- Tue Aug 14 2012