highaltitude.log.20120809

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[02:13] <nigelvh> Evening
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[07:14] <jd3297> Hi guys
[07:14] <jd3297> I am looking for an Eagle library for the Falcom FSA03 GPS, anyone who can help me out?
[07:18] <daveake> I don't recall anyone here using the FSA03 on a PCB, so you might be out of luck
[07:19] <UpuWork> morning jd3297
[07:19] <UpuWork> I think it has been used on PCB's be some people let me check for you
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[07:20] <UpuWork> FSA03 is end of life so not that availble these days
[07:21] <UpuWork> http://www.esawdust.com/blog/gps/files/FalcomFSA03.html
[07:21] <UpuWork> are you wanting a break out for it ?
[07:22] <UpuWork> https://www.esawdust.com/product/bkob-fsa03-gps-bare/
[07:22] <UpuWork> they say you can mail them to get it
[07:23] <UpuWork> or you could just buy a uBlox6 instead
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[07:39] <griffonbot> Received email: Jon Sowman "Re: [UKHAS] CUSF Launch - Friday 10/08/12"
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[07:47] <UpuWork> woop
[07:47] <UpuWork> whoop even
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[07:50] <jsowman> :)
[07:55] <jd3297> I've mailed esawdust before to ask for their eagle part library but get no response...
[07:55] <Darkside> you could make your own
[07:55] <Darkside> the footprint shoudl be in the datasheet
[07:55] <jd3297> I am making a flight computer that uses the FSA03 but would like to avoid having to make the footprint in Eagle myself if it is already available.
[07:56] <Darkside> its a good learning experience
[07:56] <Darkside> and you have a FSA03?
[07:56] <Darkside> i'd probably suggest using something else, since you can't get them anymore
[07:56] <jd3297> I figured, the FSA03 is quite popular within the HAB community so someone must have a footprint for it.
[07:56] <Darkside> its not popular anymore lol
[07:56] <jd3297> I already have 3 FSA03's so that's what I'll use.
[07:56] <fsphil> they don't make 'em like they used to :)
[07:56] <jd3297> :-)
[07:57] <Darkside> fsphil: no, they make them better
[07:57] <fsphil> thankfully
[07:57] <fsphil> I still have a couple of fsa03's somewhere
[07:57] <Darkside> we don't fly fsa03 based payloads anymore
[07:58] <Darkside> all of our use the ublox NEO or MAX 6Q modules
[07:58] <daveake> I have one, in my "tracker that always comes back"
[07:58] <fsphil> nor me, but I might use it on a pico
[07:58] <jd3297> I plan to use it in a really small APRS tracker payload
[07:58] <Darkside> jd3297: heh.
[07:58] <jd3297> Should work as long as it's put in 'airborne' mode
[07:58] <Darkside> i kind of set the bar on small aprs payloads
[07:59] <jd3297> I know, I've see your work :-)
[07:59] <Darkside> http://rfhead.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/aprs_payloads.jpg
[07:59] <Darkside> :P
[07:59] <jd3297> Mine will come pretty close in size :-)
[07:59] <Darkside> my next step is getting away from the radiometrix modules
[08:00] <jd3297> Why's that?
[08:00] <Darkside> well they're bloody expensive
[08:00] <Darkside> problem is you trade cost for board complexity
[08:00] <Darkside> doing a APRS generator using, say, a ADF7012 and a modulated crystal is a hell of a lot more complicated
[08:00] <jd3297> I plan on using an HX1-144.800. This is my first attempt at HAB so I don't want to go off the beaten path too much.
[08:00] <Darkside> yeah, use them
[08:00] <Darkside> its a hell of a lot easier
[08:01] <Darkside> i'll see if i can get the latest version of our trackuino fork uploaded to svn
[08:01] <Darkside> we added in telemetry packet support
[08:01] <Darkside> no more telemetry in the comment string
[08:02] <fsphil> I'm using compressed telemetry in the comment string
[08:02] <jd3297> I bought two of them for 43¬ a pop so that's not too bad for a full integrated radio that small.
[08:02] <Darkside> fsphil: did you implement the aprs.fi compressed telemetry thing?
[08:02] <fsphil> Darkside: yea
[08:02] <Darkside> oh nice
[08:02] <Darkside> we haven't done that yet..
[08:02] <Darkside> i might try and get our trackuino fork into github
[08:02] <Darkside> then we can share code :-)
[08:02] <fsphil> it's not hugely different from uncompressed
[08:03] <jd3297> I'll go with a standard APRS string for my first attempt, true KISS style. I'd like to avoid the disappointment of loosing the payload (I want to get the pictures back!)
[08:03] <fsphil> it's in the projectswift code on github
[08:03] <Darkside> fsphil: cool
[08:04] <Darkside> jd3297: just use the trackuino code, with mods
[08:04] <Darkside> that works pretty well
[08:04] <Darkside> you;ll need to mod it to switch to airborne mode
[08:04] <Darkside> but apart from that it works fine
[08:04] <jd3297> Thinking about launching two APRS payloads, one on 2m APRS freq and one on 70cm for redundancy
[08:04] <Darkside> or just do normal RTTY on 70cm :-)
[08:05] <jd3297> Trackuino is for AVR and I use PIC, so I'm using a PIC library someone wrote. My tracker works fine on teh breadboard, now making boards for it.
[08:09] <UpuWork> hey Darkside you know I got the HX1's at the same price as the NTX2's ?
[08:09] <UpuWork> Got a few in stock for our euro chums
[08:10] <UpuWork> did you get the link to the breakouts jd3297 ?
[08:11] <UpuWork> that foot print would take about 10 mins
[08:13] <UpuWork> in fact
[08:13] <UpuWork> UsedLibrary="D:/Badgerworks SVN/RockTracker/FSA03.lbr" ...
[08:14] <UpuWork> I think you need to speak to a Mr Moore
[08:14] <UpuWork> ping eroomde
[08:20] <nosebleedkt> UpuWork, your idea was brilliant
[08:21] <nosebleedkt> Today I will have more time to experiment and bring new curvature
[08:21] <nosebleedkt> :)
[08:21] <jd3297> UpuWork: no I didn't get that link, I'll check.
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[08:24] <jd3297> I find links to FSA03.lbr but can't find a downloadable library.
[08:24] <jd3297> And Esawdust aren't replying to my requests to send it...
[08:25] <fsphil> everyone loves curves
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[08:40] <nosebleedkt> fsphil, ;)
[08:41] <nosebleedkt> do you know why spaceships use very high frequencies to send data back to earth?
[08:41] <nosebleedkt> and not 5GHz for example?
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[08:43] <craag> nosebleedkt: What do you mean by very high frequencies? like X-band?
[08:44] <nosebleedkt> 20GHz eg
[08:44] <craag> Most use X-band at around 10-11 GHz I think.
[08:45] <craag> They have a desginated frequency band there, and I guess antenna size is also an issue.
[08:45] <nosebleedkt> Im just thinking of why not use high bands on our payloads and carry big bandwidths there?
[08:45] <nosebleedkt> using small antennas
[08:45] <craag> There aren't any ISM-licensed frequencies up that high afaik.
[08:45] <nosebleedkt> lightweight
[08:45] <nosebleedkt> in the world or in your country?
[08:45] <craag> Also path loss would lose you a lot.
[08:46] <craag> In my country, don't know about the world.
[08:46] <craag> (UK)
[08:47] <craag> The atmosphere attenuates those high frequencies a lot, to get over that you would need high gain antennas, so everyone would need to be pointing dishes to receive..
[08:47] <craag> Plus the rx and tx equipment would be expensive!
[08:48] <craag> It's great for space comms, because vacuum doesn't attenuate it much!
[08:49] <jsowman_> craag: the atmosphere doesn't attenuate electromagnetic waves
[08:49] <jsowman_> the fact that it's in a vacuum makes no difference
[08:49] <jsowman_> free space path loss is down to the inverse square law and antenna aperture
[08:49] <craag> jsowman_: Oh. My bad.
[08:49] <jsowman_> see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-space_path_loss#Physical_explanation
[08:50] <craag> I'm thinking of loss through clouds I think.
[08:50] <craag> But I'll double check that..
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[08:51] <craag> I assumed that water vapour, etc would attenuate it.
[08:52] <jsowman_> a small amount
[08:52] <craag> Ah, 'not an issue below 15GHz'.
[08:52] <craag> Ok.
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[08:54] <craag> That antenna aperture factor clears up a fair few things for me.
[08:54] <jsowman_> :)
[08:54] <UpuWork> ney nosebleedkt
[08:55] <UpuWork> hey even
[08:55] <UpuWork> glad its working
[08:55] <upix> good day
[08:55] <nosebleedkt> :)
[09:01] <craag> So due to the antenna aperture, there's 26dB more loss at 10GHz than 434MHz over the same path. Does that sound right?
[09:03] <jsowman_> yes that sounds about right
[09:03] <craag> Cool, thanks.
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[09:07] <fsphil> a big cloud can wipe out satellite tv at 10-12ghz
[09:07] <fsphil> snow is especially good at it
[09:09] <fsphil> the biggest difficulty would be aiming it
[09:13] <jsowman_> yeah, i was meaning that free space doesn't attenuate
[09:14] <jsowman_> stuff like snow/rain does :)
[09:14] <jsowman_> more or less depending on frequency
[09:15] <fsphil> we need lasers and high speed aiming
[09:15] <fsphil> can't get much more gain than that
[09:15] <craag> lol
[09:16] <jsowman_> that would be cool
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[09:26] <Randomskk> free space optical comms would be cool
[09:26] <Randomskk> though a huge faff when you're on the ground trying to hunt it :P
[09:26] <Randomskk> you could shunt a goodly amount of data
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[09:30] <fsphil> follow that red dot!
[09:32] <Randomskk> it would be fun to try microwave and a really high gain pointing dish
[09:32] <Randomskk> but I dunno if you could get any more data :P
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[09:41] <Adam_> Thoughts on Hydrogen as a balloon gas?
[09:42] <Adam_> I'd say it looks to be something to look out for in the future with the Helium situation.
[09:42] <nosebleedkt> i'll look for 434mhz modules with high power !
[09:44] <UpuWork> Adam_ I would strongly suggest Helium for your first launch
[09:45] <Adam_> Yes, I'll be using Helium then, but just a general thought really for the future.
[09:46] <Adam_> I hear from 2014 there will be strict rules governing who can have access to Helium. i.e. only hospitals etc
[09:46] <daveake> Yeah get comfy with launching before you add the extra excitement of H2 :D
[09:47] <Adam_> Haha, no matches on a stick for thar ;)
[09:47] <Adam_> that*
[09:47] <kokey> I worked out I won't get a NOTAM in time so I'll probably do some small foil test launches first
[09:48] <kokey> not hard to get a bit of helium from ASDA for that
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[09:49] <kokey> with balloons that will come in handy when there's nitrous oxide around
[09:49] <Adam_> "At Wallys Party Factory, a 32-store chain based in the North Texas town of Ennis, balloons no longer contain 100 percent helium  the total is down to 60 percent  and an additive is pumped in to help certain types float better. "
[09:50] <eroomde> i use nitrous oxide for some of my high altitude experiments
[09:51] <upix> what you talking about guys?
[09:51] <daveake> Just gassing
[09:51] <Adam_> :)
[09:52] <eroomde> makes you wanna laugh really
[09:52] <eroomde> our conversations
[09:52] <craag> (and nitrous oxide)
[09:52] <Randomskk> I dunno
[09:52] <Randomskk> I find them pretty soporific
[09:53] <Randomskk> enough to put anyone to sleep really.
[09:53] <eroomde> your conversation is quite numbing Randomskk
[09:54] <Randomskk> ..I'm all out.
[09:54] <daveake> But not painfully so
[09:54] <Randomskk> ...out cold ;o
[09:54] <eroomde> i shouldn't need to force your puns out
[09:54] <eroomde> you should be self pressurising
[09:54] <jsowman> do some work, all of you.
[09:55] <eroomde> (more obscure nitrous as rocket fuel joke. maybe getting tenuous now)
[09:55] <daveake> You should all be barred
[09:55] <eroomde> jsowman: hahaha good one, gas law etc
[09:55] <jsowman> :|
[09:56] <jsowman> ah thermodynamics
[09:56] <jsowman> that was fun
[09:57] <eroomde> it still is
[09:57] <Randomskk> hmm you know something has gone wrong when you find yourself cloning a new copy of a git repo to avoid messing up the one you're working in to fix some other bit
[09:57] <Randomskk> in theory git stash, but...
[09:58] <eroomde> yes i've been there
[09:58] <eroomde> in theory git stash
[10:00] <eroomde> in practice it doesn't work
[10:00] <eroomde> then you find a blog post by someone with the same problem
[10:00] <Randomskk> or it kind-of works. or it works but then you forget to reapply it
[10:00] <eroomde> and they say 'you fix it like this'
[10:00] <eroomde> git rebase fetch HEAD --HARD history destroy --hard-obliterate -rebuild
[10:01] <russss> lol
[10:01] <eroomde> oh you say 'or... i could just clone a new one'
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[10:09] <eroomde> UpuWork: http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=27404
[10:09] <UpuWork> oh wow :)
[10:10] <Adam_> awesome
[10:10] <daveake> I'm still astounded that the landing sequence all worked
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[10:10] <russss> they were showing some of those panoramas at the press conference yesterday
[10:10] <eroomde> an impressive feat
[10:10] <russss> they are planning to get a mastcam panorama down today
[10:10] <russss> which should be the good stuff
[10:11] <eroomde> yeah i'm really looking forward to that
[10:11] <russss> although the navcam images are pretty awesome
[10:11] <russss> they're the same cameras which are on the MERs
[10:11] <craag> What are the roundel-type badges on every component?
[10:11] <eroomde> targets for computer vision algorithms
[10:11] <UpuWork> calibration markings
[10:11] <russss> that's the robotic arm
[10:12] <russss> so the cameras can see where the bits of the arm are
[10:12] <UpuWork> I love its just sat there on its lonesome
[10:12] <daveake> The Martians know to hide behind the camera
[10:12] <craag> eroomde: Ah cheers, that's an awesome system.
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[10:16] <eroomde> it's all just awesome
[10:16] <eroomde> usually stuff with very sharp high contrast edges means computer vision
[10:17] <eroomde> easy to get an accurate estimate of the position of a point (a high contrast corner)
[10:18] <eroomde> my friend co-founded a computer vision company (well, augmented reality) and spent a while trying to come up with a logo that was nice as a logo but also full of high constract corners
[10:18] <eroomde> http://www.zappar.com/
[10:18] <eroomde> contrast*
[10:18] <craag> Yeah, that works!
[10:23] <craag> I've been meaning to play around with python image processing + a webcam, a friend of mine built an industrial stess analyzer and his Masters project that way. Haven't found a project where it'd be useful yet though.
[10:23] <eroomde> optical balloon tracking maybe
[10:24] <craag> Perhaps. Need a good telescope first though.
[10:26] <craag> It would be quite cool to set up a telescope that gets the 3D position from habitat, points the telescope and uploads a live video stream.
[10:26] <craag> Perhaps some image processing that just uploads 'It's cloudy today.' 90% of the time.
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[10:28] <eroomde> :D
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[10:29] <eroomde> i used to work in a computer vision lab
[10:29] <Randomskk> I used to work in a computer vision lab
[10:29] <Randomskk> all alone
[10:29] <Randomskk> inside the building
[10:29] <eroomde> i never really got as far as feeling like I understood computer vision
[10:29] <Randomskk> no windows
[10:29] <eroomde> it was frustrating
[10:29] <Randomskk> with only a giant robotic arm for company
[10:30] <Darkside> Randomskk: computers gave you the vision
[10:30] <Randomskk> for weeks
[10:30] <Darkside> you didn't need windows
[10:30] <Randomskk> sadly also no gps reception which made testing this gps vision thing really annoying
[10:30] <Randomskk> also I got nowhere with the computer vision
[10:30] <Randomskk> well I managed feature tracking I guess
[10:30] <eroomde> gps vision?
[10:31] <Randomskk> well a vision system that also had a gps sensor
[10:31] <Randomskk> but the idea was to do optical stabalisation of a cheap toy quadcopter that was carrying an analogue wireless video camera
[10:31] <Randomskk> such a terrible idea
[10:31] <Randomskk> (the gps one was actually a separate project, same place)
[10:31] <eroomde> i can;t decide if you're teeing off a pipe between my brain and my hands or you've also done computer vision + gps stuff
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[10:31] <Randomskk> anyway as soon as the four brushed motors turn on the video signal wipes out
[10:32] <Randomskk> eroomde: I spent two summers working at the speech & signal processing lab in surrey uni
[10:32] <Randomskk> and vision
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[10:32] <eroomde> ah right
[10:32] <Randomskk> http://www.surrey.ac.uk/cvssp/ in fact
[10:32] <eroomde> yeah we had a few robustness issues to work with when combining cvis with the blimp
[10:32] <eroomde> it was very electrically noisy
[10:32] <Randomskk> the optical stabalisation was a mess
[10:32] <eroomde> the magnetometer in particular got very upset
[10:32] <Randomskk> the quadcopter was unstable as it stands
[10:33] <Randomskk> and the idea was to try and make it hold position by doing optical flow on detected features
[10:33] <Randomskk> har har
[10:33] <Randomskk> not a chance
[10:33] <Randomskk> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLAJk21QFE0&list=UU_FqpjPVD1yDiPcLYKjwiQQ&index=1&feature=plcp / http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UP46GC2twE&list=UU_FqpjPVD1yDiPcLYKjwiQQ&index=10&feature=plcp
[10:34] <Randomskk> the thing with gps was a large size rc car thing
[10:34] <Randomskk> with a ton of sensors
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[10:34] <Randomskk> to gather data for autonomous car stuff
[10:34] <Randomskk> gps, accels, magnos, camera, intercepting rc tx signals, controlling the motors, there were some other sensors
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[10:47] <upix> could you recoomend me any Yagi design software. I'm trying to model one with YagiCAD but it is giving me strange results as you can optimize only one parameter at a time
[10:49] <eroomde> upix: i've used this before
[10:49] <eroomde> http://www.vk5dj.com/yagi.html
[10:49] <Darkside> lol
[10:49] <Darkside> vk5dj
[10:50] <Darkside> i know him
[10:51] <upix> thanks
[11:25] <fsphil> hmm.. I thought they named it after launch. guess not
[11:25] <fsphil> (MSL)
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[11:31] <Gadget-Work> http://www.panoramas.dk/mars/greeley-haven.html
[11:31] <Gadget-Work> ^ Mars panorama
[11:33] <daveake> woah I like that
[11:33] <Darkside> not from curiosity though
[11:34] <daveake> Indeed
[11:34] <Darkside> thats from opportunity
[11:34] <Darkside> still cool
[11:34] <daveake> One from that would be good
[11:34] <daveake> Yeah I realised when I saw the tracks :)
[11:35] <daveake> The Curiosity tracks will spell out "JPL" in morse, apparently
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[11:37] <Darkside> oh jeez
[11:37] <Darkside> this ep is sad
[11:37] <Darkside> BSG Season 4 ep 11
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[11:41] <cuddykid> hi all - could someone remind me what times the updates for wind predictions come in?
[11:41] <Darkside> a bit after 0 6 12 and 18 Z
[11:42] <cuddykid> thanks :)
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[11:42] <cuddykid> not putting too much faith in the predictions for this sat morning as it changes hugely only a few hours before
[11:44] <jsowman> cuddykid: about 5 hours after the model time
[11:44] <jsowman> so the 06z model is released at about 11z
[11:45] <cuddykid> brill, thanks jsowman
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[11:47] <cuddykid> http://habhub.org/predict/#!/uuid=54c577e0186deea2e25d886e2e224fa985e1556c
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[11:55] <fsphil> Darkside: which ep was that?
[11:56] <Darkside> the ep after they find the wasteland of <redacted>
[11:56] <fsphil> aah
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[11:56] <Darkside> the ep where peopel start killing themselves
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[11:58] <fsphil> it was such a happy show
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[12:15] <eroomde> gpu programming does seem to require quite a lot of understanding of the hardware and the computation process in order to be useful
[12:16] <eroomde> i was searching the pycuda mailing list for something and came across someone saying that pycuda was crap because cuda.sum(a_vector_of_numbers) was way slower than numpy.sum(a_vector_of_numbers)
[12:17] <eroomde> and then loads of people chiming in saying 'cude only works for large dimensions - try a larger array' and the problem was still the same. it seems like everyone is confused
[12:18] <eroomde> as i understand it, cuads bottle neck is slow memory access and data transport from the cpu, so performing summing (which is O(n) complexity) on n datasets is not going to suddenly get comparatively faster if you increase n
[12:18] <UpuWork> using Cuda to speed up your GPS stuff ?
[12:19] <eroomde> but something like matrix inversion where for a square matrix of size n, you do n^3 operations on n^2 numbers, that's where you start seeing the gains
[12:19] <eroomde> which get bigger with n
[12:19] <eroomde> UpuWork: yes
[12:19] <eroomde> loking at aquiring sats in parallel
[12:19] <eroomde> looking*
[12:20] <UpuWork> ok
[12:20] <eroomde> but again it's not the best use case for cuda as a lot of the stuff i'm working on are 1-d arrays
[12:20] <eroomde> i'm more just curious
[12:21] <eroomde> s/matrix inversion/matrix multiplation a bit further up
[12:21] <eroomde> its interesting but it does look like writing really good cuda alorithms is a bit of an undertaking
[12:22] <Darkside> heh
[12:22] <Darkside> going through horus videos
[12:22] <eroomde> and i suspect it's not worth it at the moment, not until sensor fusion time
[12:22] <Darkside> looking for stuff to show tomorrow
[12:22] <Darkside> https://vimeo.com/32753872
[12:22] <Darkside> this video was done very well..
[12:22] <eroomde> then i will have more linear algebra on big matrixes to throw at it than you can shake a stick at
[12:22] <Darkside> need to commend grant on that again
[12:22] <eroomde> yes please do
[12:23] <Darkside> the score on that video fits perfectly
[12:23] <eroomde> 'this conversation is missing your voice'
[12:23] <eroomde> i think the inetenet encourages people to talk when they have nothing to say far too much
[12:24] <Darkside> heh
[12:24] <Darkside> https://vimeo.com/20544850 password: horus123
[12:24] <Darkside> if we want to talk about video scoring..
[12:24] <Darkside> that track fits high altitude ballooning to a tee :P
[12:24] <UpuWork> is this nickleback ?
[12:25] <Darkside> no
[12:25] <UpuWork> good
[12:25] <Darkside> Boards of Canada
[12:25] <Darkside> Dayvan Cowboy
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[12:25] <UpuWork> at least its not the YouTube Anthem (009 Sound System)
[12:25] <Darkside> HAHAHAHAHA
[12:25] <Darkside> tes,
[12:25] <Darkside> yes.
[12:25] <Darkside> the one that ALL the bloody wingsuit videos use
[12:25] <UpuWork> I know
[12:26] <UpuWork> did that fin work ?
[12:27] <UpuWork> Woob Wuub works as well for balloon videos
[12:27] <Darkside> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Veg63B8ofnQ
[12:27] <Darkside> speaking of dreamscape :P
[12:27] <Darkside> KITTY CORLISS
[12:27] <Darkside> wait
[12:27] <Darkside> thats not dreamscape
[12:28] <eroomde> yeah did the fin work? it *shouldn't* work in theory assuming the balloon is going at the wind speed, but there might be some other factor i've not considered
[12:28] <Darkside> it didn't
[12:28] <eroomde> like payload line twistage
[12:28] <Darkside> we've tried heaps of things
[12:28] <Darkside> they all end up panning around
[12:29] <eroomde> our trick worked pretty well
[12:29] <eroomde> for stabilising
[12:29] <Darkside> yeah your gigantic sails
[12:29] <Darkside> at some point we want to fly 6 goptos
[12:29] <eroomde> hopeless
[12:29] <Darkside> 6 gopros*
[12:29] <Darkside> one for each face of the cube
[12:30] <Darkside> then switch the video together
[12:30] <eroomde> also hopeless
[12:31] <eroomde> sails of death
[12:31] <eroomde> http://vimeo.com/3803248
[12:31] <eroomde> i think it looks a bit like haley's comment depicted in the bayeus tapestrey
[12:32] <Darkside> wait
[12:32] <Darkside> 2 balloons?
[12:32] <cuddykid> odd - shift has gone from being just over 1000Hz to 850Hz.. huh
[12:32] <eroomde> ok i'll wait
[12:32] <eroomde> yes 2
[12:32] <Darkside> why?
[12:32] <eroomde> floating in the days of totex
[12:32] <eroomde> one highly filled smaller balloon with lots of free lift
[12:33] <Darkside> so there was a cutdown on that?
[12:33] <eroomde> one bigger balloon that's as neutrally boyant with the payload as we can get
[12:33] <eroomde> let the high filled one do the work towing it up, then cut it away at about 25km
[12:33] <Darkside> cool
[12:33] <Darkside> did it work?
[12:33] <eroomde> and the system then just hangs under the neautral one
[12:34] <eroomde> with either a very slow +ve or -ve vertical rate
[12:34] <eroomde> yes it worked
[12:34] <cuddykid> and the pulsing has stopped.. :S
[12:34] <eroomde> we were testing a star camera that flight
[12:34] <eroomde> so wanted to get it up to altitude and then stay there for a while, with really low rotation rates
[12:34] <Darkside> ahh i remember talking about this in your car
[12:35] <eroomde> it works ok as a technique
[12:35] <Darkside> bit.. big though
[12:36] <eroomde> big for what?
[12:36] <Darkside> i mean, we've flown somw pretty absurd camera payloads
[12:36] <Darkside> as a camera payload
[12:36] <Darkside> you've seen the monkey payload, right?
[12:36] <eroomde> nope
[12:36] <eroomde> well it's as big as we thought it needed to be to get the job done
[12:36] <eroomde> i'm not sure if there are any other metrics to compare it
[12:37] <Darkside> https://vimeo.com/39127812 33 seconds
[12:37] <eroomde> it needed some very specific things, it wasn't a point and shoot camera
[12:37] <eroomde> it was a video sensor running star tracking algorithms on a blackfin procressor onboard
[12:37] <Darkside> warning: indie music in the background
[12:37] <Darkside> ooh
[12:37] <Darkside> very cool
[12:38] <eroomde> [crocodile dundee voice]: that's not a payload
[12:38] <Darkside> lol
[12:39] <Darkside> it had all these weird tensioning things
[12:39] <Darkside> that all immediately broke when the balloon burst
[12:39] <eroomde> hab payloads have shrunk massively in the last couple of years
[12:39] <eroomde> back in the day our stuff was really outlandish
[12:40] <eroomde> all sorts of bits sticking out and random tube and explosively deployed parachute mortars and 6 cameras and 9 experiments
[12:40] <eroomde> http://www.flickr.com/photos/cuspaceflight/sets/72157621752771172/
[12:40] <eroomde> that tube was about 1m long and had an estes rocket inside it
[12:40] <Darkside> what the hell
[12:41] <Darkside> and you fired it at altitude?
[12:41] <eroomde> and the payload itself had 3 parachute mortars to come down like an apollo capsule
[12:41] <eroomde> and a big aerobrake to come down like a shuttlecock should the parachute system fail
[12:41] <eroomde> and lots of stuff stuck to the 1m diameter polystyrene disc which was the aerobrake
[12:42] <eroomde> upwards and downwards facing cameras and various sensors bits of pyro match and lots of kapton tape everywhere
[12:42] <Darkside> did it work?
[12:42] <eroomde> kapton tape makes random shit look like space shit
[12:42] <eroomde> tru story
[12:42] <Darkside> also what was with the video camerA?
[12:42] <eroomde> it was a webcam
[12:42] <eroomde> it didn;t like the cold
[12:42] <eroomde> or rather, the warm
[12:42] <Darkside> heh
[12:42] <Darkside> wait
[12:42] <eroomde> no convective losses
[12:42] <Darkside> is this the PC104 days?
[12:43] <eroomde> we've never flown pc104 on a balloon
[12:43] <eroomde> the webcam was to a pic
[12:44] <eroomde> don;t cufuse me with poliver de phd please
[12:44] <eroomde> oliver*
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[12:45] <Darkside> hehe
[12:45] <Darkside> sorry
[12:45] <Darkside> still, interesting payload
[12:46] <eroomde> like i say, was all about trying new stuff every flight
[12:46] <eroomde> and trying to get a handle on how difficult a 100km rockoon would be
[12:47] <Darkside> and what was your end judgement on that?
[12:47] <eroomde> it's difficult
[12:47] <eroomde> mostly from a paperwork and recovery pov
[12:47] <eroomde> the potential crossranges are very very big
[12:49] <Laurenceb> its easy to do with spin stabilised
[12:49] <Laurenceb> maybe even use an off the shelf motor
[12:49] <Laurenceb> - with custom nozzle
[12:49] <eroomde> we've built balloon systems that can relaibly take >10kg systems up to 25km, we've commanded them from the ground, we have done redundancy in our flight computers, power systems and pyrotechnics, we've tested watchdog systems for safety critical things, and we've built minimum dimater carbon fibre rockets that would so about 70km if you launched them from 25km
[12:50] <eroomde> but, putting it all together and finding somewhere to test it is a trick
[12:50] <Laurenceb> yeah
[12:50] <Laurenceb> i was thinking more ~800gram rockoon
[12:50] <Laurenceb> at 36Km
[12:50] <Laurenceb> with spinup[ system to 25Hz
[12:51] <Laurenceb> and the rockoon is basically a bullet shape with no fins and minimal structure
[12:52] <Laurenceb> using off the shelf motor with custom nozzle
[12:52] <eroomde> needless to say we've done montecarlos at some length in our 6dof flight prediction code that comapres spun to non spun
[12:53] <Laurenceb> the only hard pare is the nose cone - it gets _very_ hot
[12:53] <eroomde> it's still a diffiult problem even when spinning
[12:53] <Laurenceb> well the spinup system isnt exactly easy
[12:53] <Laurenceb> but its not impossibly hard either
[12:53] <eroomde> no, infact i think it would be really very difficult
[12:54] <Laurenceb> i was thinking of a CF truss structure with 3 roller bearing towards the front
[12:54] <Laurenceb> then nozzel plug that doubles as bottom mount - connected to brushless motor
[12:54] <Laurenceb> the hoffman magnetics motors looked best
[12:56] <Laurenceb> - its a little trciky as its not spinning that fast
[12:56] <eroomde> i think we looked briefly at hot gas
[12:56] <Laurenceb> eeek
[12:56] <eroomde> as the power source for spinning
[12:56] <Laurenceb> thats crazy shit
[12:56] <eroomde> it's not
[12:56] <eroomde> pyrotechnic solutions are often the easiest
[12:56] <Laurenceb> hmm i guess if you spinup once
[12:56] <eroomde> not to mentioned the most reliable
[12:56] <Laurenceb> pointing errors would be an issue
[12:57] <Laurenceb> motor you can spin up and keep running for a while
[12:57] <Laurenceb> for n-prize i did some simulations of a spun up rocket system that cuts down at 32Km
[12:58] <Laurenceb> then uses cold gas RCS to point over the next ~2seconds
[12:58] <eroomde> hot gas also doesn't provide a countertorque on the launch assembly
[12:58] <Laurenceb> yes
[12:58] <Laurenceb> motor has to spin up slowly
[12:58] <Laurenceb> i guess it could work, but its tricky to test
[12:59] <eroomde> you still put the same angular momentum into the frame
[12:59] <eroomde> regardless of how fast or slow you spin up
[12:59] <Laurenceb> yes
[12:59] <Laurenceb> but if you are clever you can use it for pointing
[12:59] <eroomde> sod pointing
[13:00] <eroomde> just make it good enough to work regardless
[13:00] <Laurenceb> :P
[13:00] <Laurenceb> its important for orbital
[13:00] <Laurenceb> but yeah
[13:00] <eroomde> everything that needs active control is a nail in your coffin
[13:00] <Laurenceb> maybe cutdown -> rcs -> hot/cold gas spinup
[13:00] <Laurenceb> is a better way to do n-prize/whatever rockoon launch
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[13:01] <Laurenceb> you know you can make a decent RCS using nitrogen in a 2L coke bottle?
[13:02] <eroomde> at -50C?
[13:02] <Laurenceb> you can heat it
[13:02] <Laurenceb> electrically
[13:02] <eroomde> oh god laurence
[13:02] <eroomde> enough armchair reckoning
[13:02] <Laurenceb> hehe
[13:03] <Laurenceb> if you heat it refrigerants also work
[13:03] <Laurenceb> but much better mass fraction
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[13:05] <Laurenceb> in fact heated refrigerant would make a good spinup
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[13:06] <Laurenceb> - you want uber consistent behaviour
[13:07] <eroomde> Laurenceb: thanks for telling me what I want
[13:07] <russss> I want the moon on a stick
[13:07] <Laurenceb> :P
[13:07] <Laurenceb> i mean for n-prixe
[13:07] <Laurenceb> orbital
[13:08] <cuddykid> when I enable the temp code (one wire & dallas stuff) exactly like I've used on previous flights fine, it just kills the whole program. No rtty etc
[13:08] <cuddykid> when I disable it and re-upload code, it works :/
[13:09] <eroomde> 'it just kills' needs expanding. start instrumenting the bit of code u think is being dangerous (the 1 wire stuff presumably) with pin wiggles and so on
[13:09] <eroomde> or use a debuger if you have such a thing
[13:10] <cuddykid> eroomde: it's the following chunk of code: http://pastebin.com/HY4h0VxS
[13:10] <Laurenceb> hhehehe
[13:10] <cuddykid> I'm guessing it's the sensors functions
[13:10] <Laurenceb> its arduino
[13:10] <eroomde> ah yes, i just spotted the line where i said 'i'll do it for you'
[13:10] <eroomde> silly me
[13:10] <Laurenceb> they havent heard of jtag :P
[13:11] <eroomde> cuddykid: well, i'll stop being curmedgeonly for a second
[13:11] <Laurenceb> i wont
[13:11] <eroomde> one of the annoying things about arduino is that a lot of stuff is hidden from you
[13:12] <cuddykid> eroomde: lol
[13:12] <eroomde> so sensot.getTemp() could mean really anything
[13:12] <eroomde> sensor*
[13:12] <cuddykid> I'm going through that now
[13:12] <Laurenceb> human.destryAll()
[13:12] <eroomde> ok. well, see if you can find the function call that kills it then go to where that function is defined and narrow it down from there
[13:21] <upix> cuddykid: can you listen to your rtty and decode?
[13:22] <cuddykid> upix: don't get any rtty when I call the temp function
[13:22] <upix> but in general you can?
[13:22] <cuddykid> yeah
[13:24] <upix> then do like this http://pastebin.com/yQfa1KKW
[13:24] <upix> where RTTY_SEND is your function which transmits character
[13:24] <upix> and see where transmission stops
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[13:45] <Randomskk> eroomde: <3 matplotlib
[13:45] <Randomskk> just made a 72-chart spread
[13:46] <Randomskk> each one is multiple layered charts
[13:46] <eroomde> pics or it didn;t happen
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[13:47] <Randomskk> I'll trade for performance charts of your cooling system >_>
[13:48] <Randomskk> I even get to put fancy labels and info on each chart, with transparent box overlays and stuff
[13:48] <Randomskk> and draw borders around groups of subplots
[13:48] <Randomskk> and somehow still make it all fit on one screen
[13:49] <eroomde> nobody type anything for a sec
[13:49] <eroomde> 1000C
[13:49] <eroomde> ^
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[13:49] <eroomde> |\
[13:49] <eroomde> | \
[13:49] <eroomde> | \
[13:49] <eroomde> | \
[13:49] <eroomde> _______> distance through precooler
[13:49] <eroomde> -150C
[13:49] <eroomde> there you go
[13:49] <eroomde> now cough up
[13:50] <russss> lol
[13:57] <Randomskk> hah
[14:05] <Randomskk> https://randomskk.net/u/metric_breakdown_export.png
[14:06] <eroomde> that is pretty
[14:06] <eroomde> wat is it?
[14:06] <Randomskk> that'd be telling
[14:06] <Randomskk> (it's for work)
[14:06] <eroomde> i'll temp you with another of my charts if you want
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[14:06] <eroomde> power per unit volume (normalised units)
[14:06] <Randomskk> it's more exciting if you don't know
[14:07] <eroomde> best heat exchangers in the world one year ago:
[14:07] <eroomde> ->
[14:07] <eroomde> skylon precooler:
[14:07] <eroomde> -------------------------------------------------->
[14:07] <Randomskk> pretty good
[14:07] <Randomskk> as it happens you were exactly the width of my current terminal
[14:07] <eroomde> i go the extra mile
[14:09] <eroomde> it is a pretty graph tho
[14:10] <eroomde> if matplotlib could rener fast enough it'd be cool to make it real time
[14:10] <Randomskk> yea
[14:10] <Randomskk> to be fair it's not awful
[14:10] <Randomskk> but it's not quite good enough for rapid updates
[14:10] <Randomskk> not optimised for that I guess
[14:10] <eroomde> indeed
[14:11] <Randomskk> good enough for 1Hz odd though and the python integration is great
[14:11] <Randomskk> I wonder if it's faster if you avoid all its matlab-esque layer and just use the underlying api
[14:11] <eroomde> matplotlib?
[14:11] <Randomskk> yea
[14:12] <Randomskk> matplotlib.pyplot is like matlab and preserves state and does all sorts of things so that you can just make calls to stuff
[14:12] <Randomskk> but inside is actually a fully OO API
[14:12] <eroomde> hmm, i've only really noticed matplotlibs slowness as a function of the size of the dataset i'm trying to plot
[14:13] <eroomde> it seems to be a pure rendering problem
[14:13] <Randomskk> probably
[14:13] <Randomskk> but it could be processing
[14:13] <Randomskk> depends what you're doing as well, idk
[14:13] <Randomskk> if it was just rendering then it'd be fine for real time with sufficient sampling
[14:14] <Randomskk> it doesn't have any concept of a scrolling graph or any way to avoid re-drawing stuff it's already drawn though afaik
[14:14] <Randomskk> which is what you really need
[14:14] <Randomskk> but for some things the whole chart updates the whole time anyway
[14:14] <Randomskk> oooh
[14:14] <Randomskk> I lie
[14:15] <Randomskk> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4098131/matplotlib-update-a-plot/4098938#4098938
[14:15] <Randomskk> Instead of replotting, you can just update the data of the plot objects. You'll need to make some changes in your code, but this should be much, much faster than replotting things every time. However, the shape of the data that you're plotting can't change, and if the range of your data is changing, you'll need to manually reset the x and y axis limits.
[14:16] <Randomskk> http://www.scipy.org/Cookbook/Matplotlib/Animations implies you can actually blit to some backends
[14:17] <Randomskk> so in theory it could work fine
[14:17] <eroomde> ooh interesting
[14:17] <eroomde> last time i did a matplotlib animation i just wrote a srcript to render the pngs and stitched that together
[14:17] <eroomde> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pk971PWYpTk&list=UUDdAMHrUMRwFU3JafszKI2w&index=1&feature=plcp
[14:18] <Randomskk> neat
[14:18] <Randomskk> yea I think it has better support for animation
[14:30] <cuddykid> looks like it'll be flying without temp sensors
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[14:32] <eroomde> cuddykid: do you have timeouts and things?
[14:32] <eroomde> you don't want your seoftware to be so fragile that it'll wait forever for a broken sensor, say
[14:32] <cuddykid> eroomde: no, and I think that may be the problem
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[14:32] <eroomde> unless you expect to have to wait for ever for something (which of course you don't), code against it
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[14:33] <eroomde> see if you can use a watchdog on the chip
[14:33] <cuddykid> I expected the Dallas library to have a timeout, but looks like it doesn
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[14:36] <jsowman__> make a timeout :)
[14:38] <eroomde> put a flake in your break
[14:38] <cuddykid> will do
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[14:40] <jsowman__> or watchdog timer
[14:40] <jsowman__> but that should be last-resort-oh-crap-turn-it-off-and-on-again really
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[14:41] <eroomde> also watchdog won't work if out ping your sensor before sending tx
[14:41] Action: Laurenceb just came up with a genius idea for n-prize class rockoon launch
[14:41] <eroomde> i.e., if the sensor is gonna cause it to hang hup, don;t try and read it until after you've sent a gps packet down
[14:41] <Laurenceb> heated supercritical refrigerant with two solenoid valves and a spin up nozzel system
[14:41] <eroomde> that way you'll still get telemetry before watchdog resets
[14:42] <Laurenceb> fitted as a low stage nozzle plug
[14:42] <Laurenceb> then it can do spin up and aiming
[14:42] <Laurenceb> all with very few parts and little mass
[14:42] Nick change: eroomde -> Laurenceb_yesbot
[14:42] <Laurenceb_yesbot> yes laurence!
[14:42] <Laurenceb> hehe
[14:42] <Laurenceb_yesbot> yes laurence!
[14:43] <jsowman__> lol
[14:43] Nick change: Laurenceb_yesbot -> eroomde
[14:43] <Laurenceb> this is almost easy to build
[14:43] <eroomde> somebody please code such a thing
[14:43] <Laurenceb> lol
[14:43] <Randomskk> be careful what you ask for
[14:44] <Laurenceb> working on it
[14:44] <Laurenceb> then i can be certain that all my ideas get a positive reception
[14:44] <eroomde> exactly
[14:44] <Laurenceb> but yeah - motors is a little shit
[14:45] <Laurenceb> especially if you combine it with RCS for aiming
[14:47] <eroomde> you've done that thing again btw
[14:48] <eroomde> where i say something, like using gas for spinup, and you say that's wrong and that electric motors 'are best'
[14:48] <eroomde> then come back a bit later and say 'i have a really good idea! gas for spinnup!'
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[14:50] <upix> in Yagi calculator it gives RADIATOR single and folded dipole info, but do you have to make them both or just one of them
[14:50] <eroomde> pick one
[14:51] <upix> is there a difference?
[14:52] <eroomde> easier to drive from 300ohm twin lead
[14:52] <eroomde> folded is
[14:52] <eroomde> it's impedance is someting like 270 ohms or something
[14:54] <upix> don't you have to use coax cable for connection?
[14:54] <eroomde> no
[14:55] <eroomde> http://www.therealcableguy.com/300%20ohm%20twin%20lead%202.jpg
[14:56] <Laurenceb> eroomde: at least im not this daft http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/08/09/lohan_flying_truss/
[14:58] <upix> hm I though you use coax to connect yagi. so anyway you then need a 300 to 50 ohm balun connector to match the impedance with receiver?
[14:58] <eroomde> christ
[14:58] <eroomde> upix: exactly
[14:59] <eroomde> so, there's not a fundamental physics reason to use coax
[14:59] <Laurenceb> without impedance match the signal will bounce off
[14:59] <eroomde> it just happens to do a job well
[14:59] <eroomde> so it's the convention
[14:59] <eroomde> so yes, with a folded dipole you need a 4:1 balun
[14:59] <Laurenceb> tho some of the yagis have 50ohm match
[14:59] <Laurenceb> through clever tricks
[15:03] <upix> just to clarify: one balun on yagi to make it 300ohm, then twin lead cable, then 300 to 50 ohm balun connector
[15:03] <eroomde> i'd just do a dipole active element
[15:04] <upix> I don't really know what that is
[15:04] <Randomskk> hmm just added more colours and lines and things
[15:05] <eroomde> have you had a read up on antenna theory, and do you really need to design a yagi from scratch? do you have an amateur license?
[15:05] <eroomde> if u just want a yagi, there are a tonne of already existing home build designs on the web
[15:05] <upix> no, I'm really green on antenna stuff
[15:06] <upix> I just want to build Yagi for 434MHz
[15:06] <eroomde> i'd follow an existing design
[15:06] <eroomde> antenna design from first principles is hard maths
[15:06] <eroomde> hard for me anyway
[15:07] <upix> I can't seem to find a desing that is (looks) easy made and written clearly
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[15:07] <upix> maybe it's because this is new stuff for me or maybe I'm a bad searcher
[15:07] <eroomde> what kind of gain do you want?
[15:08] <eroomde> or more practically, what's the ongest antenna u could fit on the parcel shelf on your car?
[15:08] <eroomde> that's uaully what drives the gain requirement
[15:08] <upix> well I don't want anything fancy, maybe 4-5 elements
[15:08] <Randomskk> that's pretty small
[15:08] <Randomskk> why not just get a whip or a colinear? want it for foxhunting?
[15:09] <Randomskk> you could probably just buy one
[15:09] <Randomskk> there are a range of nice (folding!) yagis with sockets already attached and so on
[15:09] <upix> well I build a quarter wave antenna and want a directional one
[15:09] <upix> do boost up a signal and give direction
[15:10] <upix> to*
[15:12] <eroomde> http://www.nr6ca.org/70cmyagi.html
[15:12] <eroomde> won't get much simpler than that
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[15:23] <upix> ah thanks
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[15:28] <upix> any idea on gain of such yagi?
[15:32] <eroomde> nope
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[15:32] <DrLuke> 2,43
[15:32] <DrLuke> gain-units
[15:32] <DrLuke> :-)
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[15:40] <nosebleedkt> magic mothafucka
[15:41] <nosebleedkt> 4 images Upu
[15:41] <nosebleedkt> made crazy awesome results
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[15:43] <nosebleedkt> magic : http://imgur.com/Hhv2H
[15:44] <UpuWork> thats impressive
[15:44] <nosebleedkt> its crazy
[15:44] <UpuWork> so you like that program then ? :)
[15:44] <nosebleedkt> hahaha
[15:44] <nosebleedkt> in front is turkey
[15:45] <nosebleedkt> on the left bulgaria
[15:45] <UpuWork> whats the island ?
[15:45] <UpuWork> and the peninsular at the right ?
[15:45] <nosebleedkt> island in thasos
[15:46] <UpuWork> Thasos
[15:46] <UpuWork> yeah got it on Google Maps
[15:46] <nosebleedkt> on the right that stick is the third leg of Chalkidiki
[15:46] <nosebleedkt> but it does not belong to greece
[15:46] <nosebleedkt> its independent
[15:47] <UpuWork> yuo can see the mountain on it
[15:47] <nosebleedkt> yea that mountain is holy here
[15:47] <nosebleedkt> on priests live there
[15:47] <UpuWork> well hope your proud those are some of the best pictures I've seen
[15:48] <nosebleedkt> I can add another one on the left but it then destroys the curvature
[15:49] <UpuWork> yeah there are some limits
[15:49] <nosebleedkt> let me try to the right
[15:49] <nosebleedkt> i may add the remaining 2 legs
[15:52] <griffonbot> Received email: Anthony Stirk "Re: [UKHAS] Payload Document Upload"
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[15:57] <nosebleedkt> no i think thats the best i can do
[15:57] <nosebleedkt> ok i added 2 more pics but curvature goesto sky lol
[15:58] <nosebleedkt> lol
[16:03] <eroomde> UpuWork: u seen this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6TceTZq1L0
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[16:04] <Laurenceb> thats one insane wind tunnel
[16:06] <Laurenceb> how do they limit the rate it inflates at?
[16:07] <eroomde> they don;t really
[16:07] <eroomde> there are techniques you can use to actively try and jiggle the inflation rate
[16:07] <eroomde> but i don't think they used any
[16:07] <Laurenceb> interesting
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[16:07] <eroomde> it just comes down to the design. if u think it inflates slowly, yes i agree
[16:07] <eroomde> that's just the design
[16:08] <Laurenceb> the extra air gap around the rim helps?
[16:08] <eroomde> probably didn;t have the budget to investigate it enought to figure out how to make somethingthat size inflate faster
[16:08] <eroomde> that kind of chute is called disc-gap-band
[16:08] <eroomde> the air gap being the gap
[16:08] <eroomde> and it's used because it's stable supersonicially
[16:09] <eroomde> the gap is for porosity, so the air can get out without having to spill out round the mouth
[16:09] <eroomde> which causes all sort of instability
[16:09] <eroomde> especially when there's a shock on the mouth
[16:09] <eroomde> viking used it so everyone uses it now
[16:10] <x-f> part 1 shows some impressive slow motion footage of parachute inflation
[16:10] <Laurenceb> ah
[16:10] <eroomde> more info here
[16:10] <Laurenceb> yeah
[16:10] <eroomde> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7vf2HUMMdo&feature=relmfu
[16:10] <eroomde> yeah
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[16:10] <eroomde> but the opening characterists at 50m/s air at sea level are totally different than at mach 1.8 anyway
[16:10] <eroomde> for a given dynamic pressure
[16:11] <eroomde> so it's a slightly academic series of tests
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[16:11] <nosebleedkt_> hey upix
[16:11] <nosebleedkt_> hey Upu
[16:11] <nosebleedkt_> do u have connection to facebook.com right now?
[16:11] <nosebleedkt_> its down here for more than 30min
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[16:13] <eroomde> we tried some techniques for stopping inversions
[16:14] <eroomde> one which works is to use taschengerts which are little loops of elastic between the gores at the chute mouth
[16:14] <eroomde> which force the loops of material between the chute lines to be convex rather than concave in profile, if you see what i mean
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[16:14] <eroomde> which helps it to inflate outwards along the radius rather than inwards along the radius
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[16:16] <eroomde> part 2 is amazing
[16:16] <eroomde> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRRcbZlofOk&feature=relmfu
[16:17] <eroomde> this is so the kind of stuff that happens in real test programs
[16:17] <eroomde> in ways you just don;t expect
[16:17] <eroomde> the only conclusion i've really reached is to budget twice the amount of time you think you'll need for even your worst case
[16:19] <nigelvh> Only twice? Thrice may be more accurate.
[16:20] <eroomde> lol yes. thrice if u don;t have a bean counter in the loop
[16:21] <nigelvh> Just make sure the bean counter doesn't know how long it actually takes.
[16:21] <Laurenceb> http://www.reghardware.com/2012/08/09/apple_said_to_be_redesigning_idevice_screws_again/
[16:21] <Laurenceb> holy shit
[16:21] <eroomde> i want to cry when i look back at all the assumptions i made for our mars chute test program
[16:22] <eroomde> sufficed to say I learned a lot
[16:22] <nigelvh> Laurenceb I read another article from ifixit concerning that "screw design" they thought it was extremely unlikely
[16:23] <nigelvh> 1. The cad drawings aren't realistic enough to have come from apple. 2. Apple's screws are tiny. To put that head on a tiny screw would be big $$$. 3. That head probably couldn't support the torque involved.
[16:24] <Laurenceb> yeah
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[16:24] <Laurenceb> the thread looks daft
[16:24] <Laurenceb> its certainly fake
[16:25] <nigelvh> Personally I think apple's pentalobular screws do the job well enough. Keep out joe blow, but don't actually stop a determined tinkerer.
[16:25] <nigelvh> Which will be the case in ALL screw designs.
[16:26] <Dan-K2VOL> better than welding the plastic shut
[16:26] <eroomde> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ola9cG3RgOM&feature=related
[16:26] <nigelvh> Yes. I have the iPhone 4, and it is suprising how easily it comes apart. Just the two screws and the back comes off. The battery and whatnot are all right there.
[16:26] <eroomde> got to 50s
[16:26] <eroomde> it really did have to think about it didn;t it
[16:27] <Dan-K2VOL> anyone ever done any plastic welding
[16:27] <Dan-K2VOL> ?
[16:28] <eroomde> of thin sheet yes
[16:28] <eroomde> film rather
[16:29] <Dan-K2VOL> have you done anything other than contact heat sealing?
[16:31] <eroomde> staples
[16:32] <eroomde> they didn't work
[16:33] <Dan-K2VOL> I'm curious about laser welding
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[16:38] <Randomskk> eroomde: I may have gone too far. https://randomskk.net/u/rainbowgraphs.png
[16:40] <eroomde> beautiful!
[16:40] <eroomde> u need a 30" monitor really
[16:40] <Randomskk> ikr
[16:40] <eroomde> or have that on a 1hz update on a 42" plasma
[16:40] <Randomskk> it would help a lot
[16:40] <Randomskk> that would work too
[16:40] <eroomde> plasmas on walls with stats is the done thing nowadays
[16:40] <Randomskk> getting this kind of view on this data made a lot of things hit home quite hard that had been ignored up to now I feel
[16:41] <Randomskk> which is great given as I'm not here much longer :P
[16:41] <eroomde> :)
[16:41] <Randomskk> ...just long enough to fix things I guess :p
[16:43] <cuddykid> got this far now.. managed to retrieve temp sensor device addresses - however when I go to request temp values.. nothing is given
[16:43] <cuddykid> tried using Dallas library and not using it& neither successful
[16:44] <eroomde> bbl
[16:44] <Randomskk> getting an address is good progress!
[16:46] <cuddykid> I think I'll abandon getting temps on this flight
[16:47] <jonsowman> yeah i did the same for joey
[16:47] <jonsowman> stupid temp sensors >.>
[16:48] <cuddykid> only difference in implementation on this flight is that they're on the PCB with uBlox and SD
[16:48] <cuddykid> code is exactly the same
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[16:48] <cuddykid> and its a nightmare to debug with this pcb - no serial port so just have to log to SD
[16:49] <jonsowman> debug over radio?
[16:49] <jonsowman> that's what i did, couldn't be bothered setting the USART up
[16:49] <cuddykid> I could.. still a nuisance - takes forever to upload sketch to pcb swell!
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[16:50] <cuddykid> *aswell
[16:50] <jonsowman> cuddykid: arduino?
[16:50] <cuddykid> jonsowman: yep
[16:50] <jonsowman> you can try Optiboot
[16:50] <jonsowman> smaller bootloader that supports higher baud rates
[16:50] <jonsowman> than the stock Arduino one
[16:50] <Upu> optiboot is default now
[16:50] <jonsowman> oh ok
[16:50] <Upu> since 1.0 I think
[16:50] <jonsowman> you're stuck then, unless you use ICSP
[16:50] <cuddykid> ah
[16:50] <jonsowman> which is way, way faster
[16:51] <Upu> yeah use ICSP
[16:51] <Upu> I use that to program the Arduino
[16:51] <DrLuke> I program raw AVR without the arduino
[16:51] <DrLuke> much more enjoyable to be closer to the hardware
[16:51] <cuddykid> hardcore
[16:51] <DrLuke> it really is
[16:52] <cuddykid> :P
[16:52] <jonsowman> i agree DrLuke
[16:52] <DrLuke> you just have better control over what you're doing
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[16:52] <jonsowman> but arduino is an excellent platform for those who don't want to go straight to bare metal abr
[16:52] <jonsowman> *avr
[16:52] <DrLuke> although I still use arduino for quick prototyping
[16:53] <DrLuke> but I mostly use the board as a PSU nowadays
[16:53] <DrLuke> yep
[16:53] <DrLuke> I started with arduino
[16:53] <DrLuke> it was a nice kickstarter into electronics
[16:53] <jonsowman> indeed
[16:54] <DrLuke> especially after I first bought the avr-kit from sparkfun and was completely lost because their tutorial was crap and there were some driver issues with parallel ports on windows
[16:55] <DrLuke> so I bought a nice tinyUSB MKII ISP and started using AVRstudio and everything went smoothly
[16:55] <DrLuke> especially since it uses visual studio now
[16:55] <cuddykid> Upu: do you think 3 AAs will suffice for power or should I go for 4 to be safe?
[16:55] <DrLuke> the only downside is that it's windows only, I wish it was available on linux
[16:56] <jonsowman> i use vim
[16:56] <jonsowman> it's good
[16:56] <Upu> err
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[16:57] <Upu> I can't recall which regulator is on it
[16:57] <Upu> got for 4
[16:57] <jonsowman> which arduino is it?
[16:57] <cuddykid> will go for 4 to be safe then :)
[16:57] <Upu> cuddykid's a custom PCB
[16:57] <jonsowman> ah ok
[16:57] <cuddykid> jonsowman: atmega328 on 3v3 teg
[16:57] <cuddykid> *reg
[16:57] <jonsowman> which reg?
[16:57] <Upu> I suspect the drop on that reg will be 1v
[16:57] <Upu> ish
[16:57] <cuddykid> yeah
[16:58] <Upu> so go for 4
[16:58] <cuddykid> might be pushing it a bit with 3
[16:58] <jonsowman> if it's an LM111111111111111111117 then it's about 1V, yes
[16:58] <Upu> check the data sheet
[16:59] <DrLuke> 3 AAs might work but the voltage regulator will be unstable
[16:59] <jonsowman> DrLuke: it depends on the reg's dropout
[16:59] <DrLuke> yep
[16:59] <jonsowman> i run Joey on 3 AA's but that's because the reg's dropout is only 300mV
[17:00] <jonsowman> speaking of which, i should put some new batteries in before the flight tomorrow
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[17:00] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[17:01] <DrLuke> hey, how did your exam ho?
[17:01] <DrLuke> go*
[17:01] <Lunar_Lander> first I had to answer 10 short questions, that went well
[17:01] <Lunar_Lander> then I knew several things,several things took some time
[17:01] <Lunar_Lander> and in the end it was a 1.3 as a grade
[17:01] <DrLuke> nice
[17:02] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[17:02] <Lunar_Lander> thank you
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[17:47] <Lunar_Lander> hi number10 jcoxon cuddykid upix
[17:48] <jcoxon> hi
[17:48] <upix> hey
[17:48] <Lunar_Lander> I passed molecular physics
[17:48] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[17:48] <fsphil> yay!
[17:49] <Lunar_Lander> thanks :)
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[17:53] <number10> hi Lunar_Lander
[17:53] <number10> well done
[17:53] <Lunar_Lander> hi number10 thanks
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[17:57] <DrLuke> Does using fldigi require some sort of standardized data string? if so, where can I find the details about it?
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[17:59] <jcoxon> DrLuke, http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/communication:protocol
[18:01] <DrLuke> thanks
[18:02] <DrLuke> does it also allow using a custom string inbetween for my own uses? (Like a power bus status)
[18:02] <jcoxon> the system is quite flexible
[18:03] <jcoxon> pretty much as long as it starts with $$ ends in a checksum
[18:03] <jcoxon> and fields are seperated by commas
[18:03] <DrLuke> ah, ok
[18:03] <jcoxon> it can be adapted
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[19:24] <Lunar_Lander> our predictor was on german TV
[19:24] <SamSilver> how come?
[19:29] <Lunar_Lander> ah in braunschweig there is the physical technical office of germany
[19:29] <Lunar_Lander> and they flew a silicium solid-state cosmic ray detector on a balloon
[19:29] <Lunar_Lander> and at one point he showed a printout of our predictor
[19:30] <fsphil> nice
[19:30] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[19:30] <Lunar_Lander> but he didn't say like "this is from england" or so
[19:31] <SamSilver> fsphil: spacenear.us has you in the drink
[19:31] <fsphil> oh yea
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[19:34] <fsphil> that's better
[19:41] <Upu> when are you going to North Yorkshire fsphil ?
[19:42] <fsphil> saturday Upu
[19:42] <Lunar_Lander> hey Upu
[19:42] <Upu> evening Lunar_Lander
[19:43] <Upu> ok be interested if you find it :)
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[19:44] <fsphil> don't think I will :)
[19:44] <Upu> no me neither but hell you can alway look
[19:45] <fsphil> it's a good excuse to visit the area
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[20:49] <Laurenceb_> bit dead in here
[20:51] <eroomde> alive
[20:51] <eroomde> just got in
[20:51] <eroomde> happy drinks and tapas on the thames since 6
[20:51] <eroomde> full and merry and sleepy
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[20:52] <Laurenceb_> :P
[20:52] <Laurenceb_> theres one issue with gas spinup
[20:52] <Laurenceb_> you can end up spinning on the wrong axis
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[20:54] <eroomde> huh?
[20:55] <Laurenceb_> you want the rocket to spin about its axis of symmetry
[20:55] <Laurenceb_> i.e. up the middle
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[20:57] <Laurenceb_> in other news I can buy white fuming nitric acid
[20:57] <Laurenceb_> £38/litre
[20:57] <eroomde> sorry what?
[20:57] <Laurenceb_> *evil genius laughter*
[20:57] <eroomde> u didn;t explain what u meant
[20:59] <Laurenceb_> well it can end up corkscrewing abound
[20:59] <Laurenceb_> *around
[20:59] <eroomde> are you telling me that a spinning thing needs to be balanced
[21:00] <eroomde> are you honestly fucking insulting my intelligence
[21:00] <eroomde> there is only so much lb bullshit one can fit into a day
[21:00] <Laurenceb_> lol ok ill shut up
[21:00] <Laurenceb_> not exactly
[21:01] <eroomde> instability around the iddle exis of inertia?
[21:01] <Laurenceb_> it not only needs to be balanced, you have to take care with how the thrust is applied
[21:01] <eroomde> i've taken undergrad mechanics...
[21:01] <Laurenceb_> :P
[21:01] <Laurenceb_> anyways
[21:02] <Laurenceb_> you can actually build hypergolic RCS
[21:02] <eroomde> Laurenceb_: i build one 2 weeks ago
[21:02] <eroomde> we have about 400 litres of rfna at work right niwe
[21:02] <eroomde> now*
[21:02] <Laurenceb_> even if you are poor, but you have to be a bit insane
[21:02] <Laurenceb_> your mad
[21:02] <Laurenceb_> im glad im some way away
[21:03] <Laurenceb_> looks pretty obtainable tho
[21:03] <eroomde> there was a big cloud of red from a leak on the site today infact
[21:03] <eroomde> we had to stay inside
[21:03] <Laurenceb_> easier than hydrogen peroxide
[21:03] <Laurenceb_> oh my god
[21:03] <Laurenceb_> i was looking at 500ml bottles
[21:04] <eroomde> i work on a rocket test site. we have this stuff
[21:04] <eroomde> huge tanks of MON and hydrazine
[21:04] <eroomde> w and r fna
[21:04] <Laurenceb_> lol
[21:04] <Laurenceb_> nasa were trying to avoid it for health and safety reasons
[21:05] <eroomde> eu are trying to ban hydrazine
[21:05] <eroomde> as some industries have used it for treatment
[21:05] <eroomde> but they're lobbying for an exception for rockets
[21:05] <eroomde> sure it's not much fun
[21:06] <Laurenceb_> you can use a few different things for fuel tho cant you?
[21:06] <eroomde> but it's quite well behaved compared to some of the things we have to deal with
[21:06] <eroomde> like Fcl5
[21:06] <eroomde> FCl5*
[21:07] <Laurenceb_> holy shit
[21:08] <Laurenceb_> eroomde is dr evil ?
[21:10] <Laurenceb_> and i have to fill out a H&S form for storing ethyl acetate...
[21:10] Nick change: GeekShad1w -> GeekShadow
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[21:11] <eroomde> Laurenceb_: drunken typing
[21:11] <eroomde> ClF5
[21:11] <eroomde> not FCl5
[21:12] <eroomde> and i also can;t use a numberpad
[21:12] <eroomde> CLF3
[21:12] <eroomde> CTF (chlorine tetra flouride)
[21:12] <eroomde> yes it's very nasty
[21:12] <eroomde> but it's hypergolic and has a good isp
[21:13] <eroomde> it's also hypergolic with sand, concrete and engineers
[21:15] <eroomde> infact at the safety briefing the eseential equipment for dealing with a CTF fire was 'a good pair of running shoes'
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[21:19] <Laurenceb_> my crazy chemistry is limited to making custom adhesives
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[21:42] <SpeedEvil> http://dx.com/p/professional-gps-signal-generator-test-module-w-antennas-147378
[21:42] <SpeedEvil> wtf
[21:43] <SpeedEvil> oh
[21:43] <SpeedEvil> a jammer
[21:50] <Laurenceb_> welcome to prison
[21:51] <r2x0t> is habhub predictor working for anybody? it hangs at "Starting to poll for progress JSON" for me
[21:51] <Laurenceb_> if you use that thing
[21:52] <Upu> yeah I get that as well
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[21:54] <Upu> think its broke r2x0t
[21:54] <r2x0t> it's like that for maybe 2 days
[21:54] <r2x0t> was hoping it's yet another GFS server issue, but no
[21:54] <jonsowman> try now
[21:55] <r2x0t> nope
[21:55] <r2x0t> still same
[21:55] <jonsowman> hmm
[21:55] <jonsowman> what date are you running for?
[21:55] <Upu> not working from here either jonsowman
[21:56] <r2x0t> tried defaults, today about 1 hour in future
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[21:58] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: yeah - diddn't realise it was a jammer on posting
[21:58] <SpeedEvil> then looked at PCB
[21:58] <SpeedEvil> one so24
[21:58] <SpeedEvil> soic
[21:59] <Randomskk> not seeing much in logs
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[22:02] <Randomskk> investigating
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[22:11] <Randomskk> okay
[22:11] <Randomskk> r2x0t: Upu: etc: fixed
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[23:00] <r2x0t> great, thanks
[23:03] <Lunar_Lander> good night
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[00:00] --- Fri Aug 10 2012