highaltitude.log.20120807

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[00:48] <DrLuke> When I want to use hydrogen instead of helium, do I have to take any special precautions besides having a fire extinguisher ready and of course having no ignition sources?
[00:52] <SpeedEvil> treat it like a 2m bonfire lasting 1s, plus a flaming bit of rubber thrown as hard as you can in the worst possible direction.
[00:53] <SpeedEvil> so, protective clothing or at least resistant for a few seconds, plus fall face shields.
[00:54] <DrLuke> ok, then I'll stick with helium
[00:55] <SpeedEvil> protective clothing could just mean jeans, plus full sleeved non plastic coat
[00:56] <DrLuke> hmm ok
[00:56] <Lunar_Lander> good nighz
[00:57] <Lunar_Lander> *night
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[06:10] <nosebleedkt> hi all
[06:25] <SamSilver> Hey guys! Nuclear robot-car with lasers and web-cams and shit because SCIENCE!
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[06:26] <nosebleedkt> lol
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[06:31] <Gadget-Work> Nice pics: http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/images/2012/details/cut/msl_parachute_heatshield.jpg
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[09:23] <DrLuke> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcGMDXy-Y1I
[09:23] <DrLuke> awesome
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[09:49] <waner> Hello, Did anyone have succeed in launching a successfully hab with solar cells to provide energy in combination with batteries? Thanks
[09:50] <nosebleedkt> waner, afaik no
[09:50] <nosebleedkt> they add extra weight and complexity
[09:51] <nosebleedkt> the usual ultimate lithiums AA provide enough energy for our homemade systems
[09:51] <nosebleedkt> considering a flight lasts about 2-3hrs, our systems sometimes work even the next day
[09:51] <craag> There's a couple of people building payloads to try it I believe.
[09:52] <craag> But for msot payloads it's not that useful, given the energy density of the lithium AAs provide enough power, as nosebleedkt says.
[09:52] <UpuWork> waner I think Jcoxon and navrac are trying it
[09:54] <waner> I was not afraid by the weight but when I see on the ukhas ideas page, that a solar cell weigh just 8g, i'm just asking why there is no more try ;)
[09:54] <nick_> Has anyone tried to make a payload that will keep working for a while once it has landed?
[09:55] <daveake> On a typical tracker AAAs give you about 15 hours and AAs about 40 hours
[09:55] <gonzo_> how many batts ?
[09:55] <daveake> So the extra weight and complextity of solar cells isn't worth it unless you're aiming for a long flight
[09:55] <daveake> How many volts?
[09:56] <daveake> 3-4 for a 3.3V tracker
[09:56] <daveake> assuming linear reg
[09:57] <gonzo_> rr, just wondering how far below the curve my unit is!
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[10:02] <craag> Has anyone used the lithium CR2 batteries?
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[10:05] <gonzo_> suspect they are too low capacity to be useful
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[10:05] <gonzo_> unless it's a really short flight?
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[10:08] <waner> In dl-fldigi or FLdigi is there any possibility to have an output to deal with data in a python script for example? Or the only solution is to change the DL Client for a homemade "Python listener server " and then deal with data?
[10:09] <craag> I'm looking at designing a pico float payload, but need >1.8v power source. They're lighter than 2xAAA and are still 800mAH, 2x AAA is 1200mAH. They're slightly different chemistry though, but still rated to -40 operating temp.
[10:10] <daveake> waner You can open a network port (default is 7322) from another program on the same PC. That will give you the decoded telemetry byte by byte
[10:11] <craag> I mean 'looking at'. I will do an up-burst-down flight before I actually put anything together for the floater. But jsut wondered if anybody had tried them.
[10:11] <waner> Thank you for your response <daveake> very helpfull!
[10:13] <Randomskk> waner: there's also an xml-rpc interface to get informationa dn remote control dl-fldigi
[10:13] <daveake> Obviously you need to make sure each sentence is complete, and that the checksum passes, and then parse the string, but that's all easy stuff
[10:14] <Randomskk> waner: that said, what are you planning on doing it for?
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[10:16] <griffonbot> Received email: Ed Moore "Re: [UKHAS] conference talk"
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[10:20] <waner> "realtime" graphing data from sensors like temperature, humidity and hoping to do find a realtime predictive landing point in analysing the vector path of the payload when it's going back to the ground... Sorry for my bad english, not my first language ;)
[10:20] <daveake> Oh, it's better than at least one person here whose native language allegedly is English
[10:21] <Randomskk> your english is pretty much perfect
[10:21] <Randomskk> waner: is this for chasing without internet, or something else?
[10:21] <Randomskk> I only mention this because the data being uploaded by dl-fldigi is available already-parsed via HTTP
[10:22] <Randomskk> so you can just request the current data for a given payload from the central server
[10:22] <gonzo_> there are some people who can't get complete sentecnes in english, let alone RTTY!
[10:22] <waner> exactly! without any internet connection!
[10:22] <Randomskk> what's easiest depends on what exactly you are trying to do, and just reading what dl-fldigi decodes is not too hard
[10:22] <gonzo_> (agh, dave beat me to it!)
[10:22] <Darkside> waner: you'll have to write your own
[10:22] <Darkside> there are prediction tools available though, whcih you can use
[10:23] <Darkside> Randomskk probably has a link
[10:23] <Randomskk> none of that will be helpful if he wants to run it all offline
[10:24] <Darkside> the pred program i mean
[10:24] <Darkside> you can give it the start position, gfs data and other parameters
[10:24] <Darkside> and it gives you a predictd path
[10:24] <Randomskk> true but I assume waner wants to do the prediction themself, possibly from ascent data?
[10:25] <Darkside> yeah, thats the next step up
[10:25] <Randomskk> waner: there is C code where you can provide it with pre-downloaded wind data from the NOAA weather prediction computers and it'l calculate a trajectory
[10:25] <nick_> waner: I'm interested in realtime data plotting
[10:25] <nick_> Especially tied into a map interface
[10:25] <Darkside> heh, we already do that
[10:25] <Darkside> but we are locked into oziexplorer at the moment, wnd windows
[10:25] <Darkside> and*
[10:26] <waner> exactly randoomskk, working with vectors obtained with realtime positions..
[10:27] <eroomde> waner: kst is a nice application for realtime plotting
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[10:28] <Randomskk> nick_: online or offline?
[10:29] <nick_> Online
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[10:41] <waner> Randomskk: do you have any link for the C code giving a trajectory after having pre downloaded wind data?
[10:42] <Randomskk> https://github.com/cuspaceflight/cusf-landing-prediction
[10:42] <Randomskk> pred_src in there
[10:42] <Randomskk> I'd warn you that getting it all working - especially downloading the right data - can be a bit messy
[10:43] <Darkside> i;ve heard compiling it is a pain
[10:43] <eroomde> don't look in predict.py
[10:43] <eroomde> i did once
[10:43] <Darkside> lol
[10:43] <Randomskk> compiling it is pretty easy usually
[10:43] <eroomde> decided doing the gps was easier
[10:43] <Randomskk> making anything work...
[10:43] <Darkside> eroomde: you lost part of your sanity?
[10:43] <Randomskk> eroomde: hah
[10:44] <Randomskk> hmm that's odd
[10:44] <Randomskk> waner: maybe check out https://github.com/cuspaceflight/cusf-standalone-predictor too
[10:44] <Randomskk> it has the aforementioned predict.py
[10:45] <Randomskk> which is great fun
[10:45] <Randomskk> https://github.com/cuspaceflight/cusf-standalone-predictor/blob/master/predict.py#L26-35 is my favourite
[10:45] <Randomskk> it monkey patches an internal functioni n the httplib that pydap imports to override cache control
[10:46] <waner> thank you for all these links
[10:47] <Darkside> what the hell is a monkey patch?
[10:47] <Randomskk> where you replace a loaded function with a new one
[10:47] <Randomskk> generally in some library code
[10:47] <Randomskk> at runtime
[10:48] <Randomskk> ruby people do it all the friggin time
[10:48] <Randomskk> e.g. if you load rails for ruby, then it monkeypatches the shit out of all the base classes
[10:48] <Randomskk> so that you can take an instance of a good wholesome Numeric like 12
[10:48] <Randomskk> and do 12.seconds
[10:48] <UpuWork> its all written in english but I don't understand any of it :/
[10:48] <Randomskk> and it returns a timedelta with seconds=12
[10:48] <Randomskk> not to mention a range of other disgusting things ;)
[10:48] <Randomskk> in the case of predict.py, the pydap library is responsible for getting data from NOAA
[10:49] <Randomskk> and to make HTTP requests, it loads httplib2
[10:49] <Randomskk> and httplib2 has a cache checking/control function
[10:49] <Randomskk> and predict.py overwrites pydap's httplib2's cache control function
[10:49] <Randomskk> with a new one that mostly tells it to cache things despite what the NOAA web server said
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[10:53] Action: daveake makes up a "Don't Go There" sign
[10:53] <Randomskk> (this is to fix the problem that the NOAA servers tell clients to not cache anything, even though the data is very cacheable)
[10:53] <Randomskk> (by doing this the predictor doesn't have to redownload wind data every single request, saving heaps of time and bandwidth)
[10:53] <Randomskk> the rest of predict.py is basically even worse, it's a horrid mess of crap
[10:54] <Randomskk> for which I am only partially responsible.
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[11:05] <daveake> Sir Bernard Lovell died yesterday. http://www.manchester.ac.uk/aboutus/news/display/?id=8592
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[11:25] <griffonbot> Received email: Steve Aerospace "Re: [UKHAS] conference talk"
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[11:38] <upix> good day
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[11:41] <upix> If I wanted to use ezcap for receiver in the field is it worth resoldering the aerial tv jack to something better like BNC?
[11:42] <craag> upix: I would.
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[11:45] <upix> any numbers on how much bnc is better vs ezcap connection (TV aerial if I'm right)
[11:45] <kokey> hmmm, interesting idea
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[11:46] <BackHive> Hi, anybody here?
[11:46] <eroomde> git commit -m "general pep8 nazism"
[11:46] <zyp> no
[11:46] <eroomde> ah, this would not be the terminal i was looking for
[11:46] <eroomde> sorry
[11:46] <BackHive> Ah right :/
[11:46] <daveake> eroomde try "sudo rm -f /"
[11:47] <daveake> Seeya later :)
[11:47] <daveake> -rf dammit
[11:47] <eroomde> sudo rm -f /
[11:47] <eroomde> nothing happened
[11:47] <daveake> wrong window :D
[11:47] <Randomskk> ubuntu won't even let you do that now
[11:47] <daveake> Damn evil cunning
[11:47] <LazyLeopard> "sudo rm -fr .*" is also entertaining...
[11:47] <eroomde> does it not?
[11:48] <Randomskk> I know it's terrifying to try, but really.
[11:48] <Laurenceb> pep8?
[11:48] <daveake> A colleague did "cd [something or other]" followed by "rm -rf *" without noticing the cd bit was typed wrong
[11:48] <eroomde> python style conventions
[11:48] <Randomskk> you have to rm -rf --no-preserve-root /
[11:48] <eroomde> --i-really-mean-it
[11:48] <Randomskk> otherwise it won't do it
[11:48] <daveake> I've never seen anyone hit the brak key so quickly and with so much intent
[11:48] <daveake> break
[11:48] <eroomde> Laurenceb: line lengths < 80, variable and function naming conventions, docstring etc
[11:48] <Randomskk> also yay pep8
[11:49] <eroomde> docstring are pep257 infact i think
[11:49] <eroomde> but whatever, just tarting up the gps stuff
[11:49] <BackHive> Anybody good for a little advice on radio modules for a HAB ?
[11:49] <eroomde> don;t ask to ask, just ask
[11:49] <eroomde> is the irc mantra
[11:49] <daveake> BackHive UK? NTX2.
[11:49] <joph> http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idproduct=8991 http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__8992__Turnigy_9X_9Ch_Transmitter_w_Module_8ch_Receiver_Mode_2_v2_Firmware_.html <<< ist this mode 2 just another channel for trasnmitting?
[11:50] <BackHive> OK.... what radion modules are recommended, I see the NTX2 and some other unit on the HAB store, which one ?
[11:50] <Randomskk> NTX2 are popular, easy
[11:50] <zyp> joph, throttle on left stick vs throttle on right stick
[11:51] <eroomde> blimey thats a low price joph
[11:51] <eroomde> BackHive: i would recommend the NTX2 too
[11:51] <eroomde> it's very simple and very flexible
[11:51] <daveake> and reliable
[11:51] <BackHive> thanks eroomde. Is RTTY the most popular mode ?
[11:51] <eroomde> the other module (rfm22) has a more complicated digital interface and is more limited if you want to experiement.
[11:52] <eroomde> BackHive: yes that's the stadard
[11:52] <zyp> joph, throtte stick doesn't have a spring to return it to center position when you release it, mode 1 or 2 just refers to which stick comes without a spring
[11:52] <joph> zyp, which one is better for right handed people?
[11:52] <Randomskk> it's more personal preference
[11:52] <Randomskk> whether you want your right or left hand to be throttle
[11:52] <joph> i never used such a device
[11:52] <eroomde> i think people use their handed hand to do the steering
[11:52] <eroomde> because that requires more fidelity and accuracy
[11:53] <Randomskk> yea
[11:53] <Randomskk> I do, anyway
[11:53] <zyp> joph, I've heard that it usually depends on who you learn from, because you tend to take after them
[11:53] <BackHive> OK, so what about the GPS unit..... is the Ublox 6 with breakout board the main man ?
[11:53] <eroomde> the throttle one (with the ridges) on the left hand where you don;t have to touch it even
[11:53] <eroomde> BackHive: yes
[11:53] <joph> so i should take the version with the spring on the left side (im right handed)
[11:53] <eroomde> that's the best alrounder atm
[11:53] <eroomde> spring on the right if you're right handed joph
[11:53] <navrac_work> yep the ublox 6 works at high altitudes and is pretty good on power consumption
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[11:53] <eroomde> the sprung ones are what you use for sterring usually
[11:54] <eroomde> and the fixed ratchety ones for throttle
[11:54] <zyp> and I agree with eroomde, I prefer throttle on left, which IIRC is mode 2
[11:54] <joph> steering means controlling the direction of the device?
[11:54] <eroomde> yes
[11:54] <BackHive> OK. thanks. Can I assume that there is ample code for the Arduino UNO and these two devocis knocking around ?
[11:54] <zyp> if you change your mind, it's easy to open it and move the spring to the opposite stick
[11:54] <joph> and the steering goes with the spring automatically back to zero position?
[11:54] <Randomskk> throttle left is mode 2?
[11:54] <eroomde> BackHive: there is, though writing it from scracth is not too hard and a worthwhile learning exercise too
[11:54] <zyp> Randomskk, yes, if I'm not mistaken
[11:54] <Randomskk> okay
[11:54] <joph> thanks, if it's possible to change the springs it's great
[11:55] <joph> i never used such a "big" remote ;)
[11:55] <BackHive> OK, thanks much eroomde, I will definitely purchase those two items
[11:55] <joph> in my childhood i used a much smaller device with 40MHz transmitter and speed/left/right light only
[11:55] <eroomde> BackHive: cool no problem
[11:55] <eroomde> i'll be sure to collect my commission from Upu
[11:56] <Randomskk> :P
[11:56] <eroomde> joph: same with me
[11:56] <eroomde> then i discoevered helicopters
[11:56] <daveake> On your Frequent Habber card?
[11:56] <Randomskk> eroomde: my quadshot arrived
[11:56] <Randomskk> now I need to buy a TX, not to mention glue to stick it together :P
[11:56] <eroomde> nec-lift-ter card
[11:56] Action: eroomde gets his coat
[11:56] <joph> i'll take this 9 channel version cause i want to integrate a lot of stuff like camera ;)
[11:57] <eroomde> what's it for - a uav?
[11:57] <joph> yes
[11:58] <joph> UAV and stuff like that
[11:58] <joph> i want to use it with a UAV and some small RC cars i want to build ;)
[11:59] <UpuWork> afternoon
[12:02] <joph> and i also need a servo or dc motor with gear which allows to rotate a pv module
[12:05] <UpuWork> do I owe you some commission eroomde ? :)
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[12:06] <eroomde> entrepeneurially minded, me
[12:06] <joph> so which version should i take, mode 2?
[12:07] <eroomde> Randomskk: ipython's %prun is my new favourite thing
[12:07] <eroomde> profiled run
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[12:07] <zyp> joph, that's what I got
[12:08] <eroomde> life is just easier with it now
[12:08] <Randomskk> oh nice
[12:08] <Randomskk> I really need to pick up ipython
[12:08] <Randomskk> just have never quite got it building properly before
[12:08] <costyn> Randomskk: :)
[12:08] <Randomskk> but my desktop is 12.04 and presumably has it working usefully now
[12:09] <eroomde> since i've started doing more numerical stuff, having ipython --pylab has really helped
[12:09] <Randomskk> the way most of it is random magic kinda annoys me
[12:09] <costyn> Randomskk: sorry, I was scrolled back... was in reference to an earlier link to the predictor code comment
[12:09] <Randomskk> costyn: hehe
[12:09] <daveake> Mode 2 is "normal" in the UK; and is probably easier for a right-hander; go with that
[12:09] <Randomskk> ugh. I really need to pick up a tx
[12:10] <Randomskk> dunno whether to get a really nice one now on the grounds that there's probably a reasonable amount of stuff I can use it for later
[12:10] <Randomskk> or what
[12:10] <Randomskk> meh, really need to get paid first at any rate :P
[12:10] <eroomde> there's always that
[12:12] <Randomskk> soon hopefully
[12:12] <Randomskk> can't wait to put this quadshot together
[12:12] <Randomskk> it looks quite exciting
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[12:12] <costyn> Randomskk: those are pretty cool
[12:15] <Randomskk> :D
[12:15] <Randomskk> but buying a 7/8/9 channel 2.4GHz transmitter is like, really expensive
[12:15] <Randomskk> :|
[12:18] <costyn> I can imagine
[12:19] <joph> someone linked me a page for diy UAV which uses a plane/glider from hobbyking
[12:21] <joph> my camera has a weight of 240g, additional stuff like frame not included
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[12:27] <BackHive> Hi, can anybody recommend a prototype shield for the Arduino UNO to mount an NTX2 radio module and Ublox6 GPS unit ?
[12:29] <UpuWork> hi BackHive
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[12:29] <BackHive> Hi Upu
[12:29] <UpuWork> You can use a generic sheild and one of these :
[12:29] <costyn> BackHive: just use some perfboard ? there's no need for a shield really
[12:29] <UpuWork> http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_60&product_id=68
[12:29] <costyn> but if you want it really neat...
[12:29] <BackHive> Well I was thinking of using the shield to fool around with other stuff to get the hang of this arduino stuff
[12:30] <UpuWork> well use bread board first
[12:30] <Gadget-Work> UpuWork, are those breakoutbard your own handywork ?
[12:30] <UpuWork> yep
[12:30] <UpuWork> all hand made with love*
[12:30] <UpuWork> * and flux
[12:31] <costyn> UpuWork: is our much loved purveyor of hab related goodies and gizmo's
[12:31] <Gadget-Work> Hand soldered ?
[12:31] <UpuWork> yep
[12:31] <BackHive> Upu, the name is Terry, wa that yourself that sent me the email a short while ago ?
[12:31] <UpuWork> Ah Terry hi there :)
[12:31] <UpuWork> yes thats me
[12:31] <UpuWork> I just noticed your post on the blog too
[12:31] <UpuWork> sorry I don't check it very often
[12:31] <BackHive> Anthony,,, hi
[12:31] <UpuWork> Someone linked this :
[12:31] <UpuWork> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/63720513/Images/TINY.png
[12:32] <BackHive> Im gonna order a ublox jobbie shortly
[12:32] <costyn> UpuWork: think that was Darkside
[12:32] <UpuWork> no it wasn't I think it was the chap from Slovakia
[12:32] <costyn> oh yea
[12:32] <daveake> MrScienceMan I think
[12:32] <UpuWork> The blue material BackHive
[12:32] <BackHive> Upu, that photo.... what is the shield in the photo ?
[12:33] <costyn> yea there were some concerns about it poking eyes out and such
[12:33] <UpuWork> is basically the stuff that you insulate houses with
[12:33] <BackHive> Looks a lot neater than perf board
[12:33] <costyn> BackHive: it's an arduino protoshield
[12:33] <BackHive> any particular one ?
[12:33] <costyn> BackHive: available at any webshop that sells arduino's
[12:33] <costyn> nope
[12:33] <BackHive> ah right....
[12:33] <MrScienceMan> UpuWork: thats mine tiny, and its Bulgaria :)
[12:33] <costyn> they're all pretty much the same
[12:33] <BackHive> thanks much
[12:33] <UpuWork> BackHive http://www.hindleys.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=7_57_60_292&products_id=9635/
[12:34] <UpuWork> there you go its MrScienceMan sorry I didn't know who linked it but I liked it as it is very tidy
[12:34] <costyn> it is very tidy yes
[12:34] <UpuWork> I have renamed it :)
[12:34] <MrScienceMan> i did use a breadboard before that to play around
[12:34] <UpuWork> do you mind if I show people that ?
[12:34] <MrScienceMan> not at all
[12:34] <UpuWork> thanks
[12:34] <costyn> MrScienceMan: you don't have a larger version do you?
[12:34] <costyn> I think I already asked :)
[12:35] <MrScienceMan> https://picasaweb.google.com/109494460281734898309/ProjectTINY?authkey=Gv1sRgCOTayoOl2obP5gE
[12:35] <MrScienceMan> ahh
[12:35] <UpuWork> BackHive how do I cut out recessed holes ? Hot wire cutter
[12:35] <costyn> did you use DSL camera? focal depth is very shallow :(
[12:35] <costyn> :)
[12:36] <UpuWork> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/hot-wire-table-foam-cutter-for-polystyrene-depron-plug-in-cut-/261069424137?pt=UK_ToysGames_ModelKits_ModelKits_JN&hash=item3cc8f34609
[12:36] <UpuWork> this one to be exact
[12:36] <MrScienceMan> DSRL yep
[12:36] <costyn> UpuWork: ah cool, didn't know commercial units were so cheap
[12:36] <MrScienceMan> im on angle and focus is at antennas base
[12:36] <UpuWork> I think thats the same one daveake uses as well
[12:36] <costyn> MrScienceMan: yes, that's what I meant :)
[12:36] <daveake> That table is the cheapest I've seen. Cheap enough to make it not worth making your own
[12:37] <daveake> It is :)
[12:37] <UpuWork> So yes ask away BackHive/Terry you've found this channel which is a good start
[12:38] <daveake> This case uses the thick XPS from Hindleys: http://www.flickr.com/photos/daveake/7348723216/in/set-72157630074184822
[12:39] <daveake> This one thinner stuff from ebay - http://www.flickr.com/photos/daveake/7575194958/in/set-72157630584759530
[12:39] <costyn> daveake: Cloud 6 hasn't been up yet has it?
[12:39] <UpuWork> damn thats thick :)
[12:39] <daveake> costyn Nope
[12:39] <daveake> UpuWork It's a small box :)
[12:39] <daveake> I think the thinner (10mm) stuff is plenty strong enough
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[12:40] <costyn> daveake: whats the wavecom unit? for ssdv?
[12:40] <daveake> Got mine for free - the courier managed to deliver someone else's stuff to me by mistake, as well as mine. email the vendor who arranged for it to be collected, and refunded my money for being hoest :)
[12:40] <daveake> GPS backup
[12:42] <costyn> first time I've seen someone else use 3-island perfboard :) i bought some but it didn't turn out terribly useful, tracks would have been more useful
[12:43] <MrScienceMan> daveake: i love how you use 3 different brands of batteries
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[12:44] <daveake> That'd be for testing.
[12:44] <daveake> I only use the Energizer Lithiums for actual flights
[12:44] <MrScienceMan> right ;)
[12:45] <daveake> Those are NiMh rechargeables
[12:45] <MrScienceMan> yeh, i have a bag full for my flashguns
[12:45] <MrScienceMan> :)
[12:47] <MrScienceMan> daveake: would you like to see the build of one of the other teams
[12:48] <daveake> Sure; upload for all to see
[12:48] <costyn> I plan to use some leftover kite rope (strong stuff for acrobatic kite). Any reason not to?
[12:49] <daveake> If it's undamaged; otherwise I'm a frayed knot
[12:49] <Randomskk> ahaha.
[12:50] <Darkside> we use brickies line
[12:50] <Darkside> which is often pink
[12:50] <costyn> daveake: harharhar
[12:50] <costyn> Darkside: brickies? bricklayers?
[12:51] <Darkside> yeah
[12:52] <eroomde> Randomskk: you know how everyone says 'USE A PROFILER BEFORE OPTIMISING!'
[12:52] <Randomskk> I do know that
[12:52] <eroomde> and yet because we're awesome (well, because I am awesome) i know much better and already know where the bottlenecks are so dive right in?
[12:52] <daveake> Amazing how many people don't do that
[12:52] <Randomskk> eroomde: of course, everyone knows where the bottlenecks are intuitively
[12:52] <Randomskk> no point profiling code you wrote or anything
[12:52] <eroomde> so i did a bit of that with the gps stuff just now
[12:52] <Randomskk> you can just feel what's slow
[12:52] <eroomde> and it made little difference
[12:52] <eroomde> then i ran the profiler
[12:53] <eroomde> so, it turns out that sum() is about 200 times slower than np.sum()
[12:53] <eroomde> and it's gone from taking 307s to analyses 15s of data to 19s to analyse 15s of data
[12:53] <Randomskk> oh goodness yea
[12:53] <eroomde> having replaces sum with np.sum
[12:53] <eroomde> replaced*
[12:53] <Randomskk> that's a tidy speedup
[12:53] <daveake> :)
[12:53] <Randomskk> I love the simple ones
[12:53] <costyn> impressive speedup
[12:54] <Randomskk> though fwiw always use the np functions where possible
[12:54] <eroomde> so yes, USE A PROFILER!
[12:54] <Randomskk> max, abs, sum, etc
[12:54] <eroomde> it was a big surprise seeing 'sum' at the top of the list
[12:54] <Randomskk> hehe
[12:54] <daveake> Not uncommon to see people just jump in and spend a day speeding up something that only used a few percent of the total anyway
[12:54] <Randomskk> almost real time now
[12:54] <eroomde> totally not what I expected to see
[12:54] <eroomde> yes, and this in numpy
[12:54] <eroomde> it'll be c eventually which should be hecka fast
[12:55] <Randomskk> you might be surprised
[12:55] <eroomde> but i want to release a polished python program for gps receiving (offline)
[12:55] <MrScienceMan> costyn: https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-1FMotVJM_vc/UCEQIqXcJoI/AAAAAAAABgw/b0Px3XQF77Q/s640/TINY-closeup.png
[12:55] <Randomskk> a few other things to look out for include avoiding as many .s as possible
[12:55] <Randomskk> e.g. instead of like
[12:55] <MrScienceMan> daveake: https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Mx4kqF0KeJM/UCEQItsZAyI/AAAAAAAABgs/YTLJAr4MH30/s600/Phoenix1.png
[12:55] <Randomskk> for thing in things: do.my.stuff(thing)
[12:55] <Randomskk> stuff = do.my.stuff
[12:55] <Randomskk> for thing in things: stuff(thing)
[12:56] <Laurenceb> eroomde: kai borre code based?
[12:56] <Laurenceb> in numpy?
[12:56] <eroomde> Laurenceb: ed moore based code
[12:56] <Laurenceb> :P
[12:56] <Randomskk> but also check out scipy.weave
[12:56] <Darkside> MrScienceMan: is that a eaflebone?
[12:56] <Laurenceb> groovy
[12:56] <Darkside> beaglebone*
[12:56] <eroomde> yes i was eyeing up weave
[12:56] <Laurenceb> how far have you got?
[12:56] <MrScienceMan> yes
[12:56] <Darkside> MrScienceMan: awesome
[12:56] <MrScienceMan> and a whole lot other things :)
[12:56] <Randomskk> I'd write it in C to make a portable standalone program
[12:56] <eroomde> Laurenceb: i deliberately didn;t want to see someone else's implementation
[12:56] <Darkside> about time someone flew a beaglebone :-)
[12:56] <Randomskk> but not for huge speedups
[12:56] <Laurenceb> is it producing fixes?
[12:56] <eroomde> it's like seeing some elses conceptual sketch of a design
[12:56] <Darkside> i have 2 of them, but i haven't had time to do anything with them
[12:56] <eroomde> it gets stuck in your brain
[12:56] <Laurenceb> lol
[12:57] <Laurenceb> if it works who cares
[12:57] <Laurenceb> how far have you got?
[12:57] <eroomde> it's not so much that, its more about me learning while i'm doing it
[12:57] <Laurenceb> yeah
[12:57] <Laurenceb> i did my own aquisition code
[12:57] <MrScienceMan> Darkside: they didnt manage to get a transmitter
[12:57] <Laurenceb> then got bored and grabbed the kai borre stuff
[12:57] <MrScienceMan> so they are using tinytrack
[12:57] <eroomde> one of akin's laws of spacecraft design: 30. (von Tiesenhausen's Law of Engineering Design) If you want to have a maximum effect on the design of a new engineering system, learn to draw. Engineers always wind up designing the vehicle to look like the initial artist's concept.
[12:57] <Darkside> oh :(
[12:58] <MrScienceMan> and the beagleboard is recording stats
[12:58] <eroomde> Laurenceb: i've got aquisition, tracking, and a bit of the bit unpacking working so far
[12:58] <Darkside> make sure it stays warm
[12:58] <Laurenceb> nice
[12:58] <Laurenceb> impressive work
[12:58] <eroomde> but i'm cleaning up the aq and tracking first before i start on the sprint to a position fix
[12:58] <Laurenceb> can i ask how you go from initial aquistion to costas loop init?
[12:58] <eroomde> the end is in sight but i want to pay off some technical debt first
[12:58] <Darkside> MrScienceMan: there's been problems with some of these arm chips getting too cold nd the pll losing lock
[12:58] <Laurenceb> i used a second init stage
[12:58] <Darkside> the rpi worked because it was kept so damn warm by the linear regulators
[12:59] <eroomde> Laurenceb: i literally just pass the output of the aquisition function as the initial parameters for the combined costas and delay locked loop
[12:59] <MrScienceMan> Darkside: no problem, they are using tinytrack :)
[12:59] <Laurenceb> ...
[12:59] <Laurenceb> and it works?!
[12:59] <Darkside> doesn't mean it'll keep warm enough
[12:59] <Darkside> but if you use a linear reg in there it'd be fine
[12:59] <eroomde> Laurenceb: yes it works very nicely
[12:59] <Laurenceb> i used 20hz bandwidth on the costas
[12:59] <Laurenceb> so it needed a second init stage to be fast
[12:59] <MrScienceMan> Darkside: i think they have something setup that generates a bit of heat
[12:59] <Laurenceb> first stage was to within 250hz
[13:00] <Laurenceb> second stage was 25hz
[13:00] <eroomde> yeah this might not be fastest (can take maybe half a nav bit period to tune in) but that's fine really
[13:00] <eroomde> i think
[13:00] <Darkside> MrScienceMan: should be ok, i hope
[13:00] <Laurenceb> ok
[13:00] <Darkside> so the tracking is separate?
[13:00] <MrScienceMan> yep
[13:00] <Darkside> ok
[13:00] <eroomde> @ me Darkside ?
[13:00] <Darkside> should be fine then
[13:00] <eroomde> oh no sorry
[13:00] <costyn> MrScienceMan: thanks!
[13:00] <MrScienceMan> tinyttack gps hooked to a cheap radio transmister
[13:00] <MrScienceMan> 5watts of power
[13:01] <Laurenceb> eroomde: still interested in superpressure balloons?
[13:01] <Darkside> MrScienceMan: lower that
[13:01] <Darkside> :P
[13:01] <Laurenceb> or anyone for that matter
[13:01] <Darkside> you do *not* need 5W
[13:01] <Darkside> 1W will be fine
[13:01] <Darkside> we use 300mW
[13:01] <MrScienceMan> mine is 300mw :D
[13:01] <Laurenceb> no-oone seems interested :(
[13:01] <Darkside> yeah :P
[13:01] <eroomde> Laurenceb: in principle yeah. they don;t solve any burning need for me atm tho
[13:01] <costyn> Darkside: beagleboard != beaglebone?
[13:01] <Laurenceb> no-one
[13:01] <Darkside> 5W is incredible overkill once its in the air
[13:01] <Darkside> costyn: yeah
[13:01] <MrScienceMan> got decode from 68km
[13:01] <Darkside> costyn: google it
[13:01] <eroomde> but a circumnavigtor balloon would rock
[13:01] <Laurenceb> eroomde: i seem to have solved the heat seal issue
[13:01] <costyn> Darkside: Tim flew a beagleboard and we all know how that turned out :)
[13:01] <Darkside> costyn: yeah lol
[13:02] <MrScienceMan> costyn: i dont
[13:02] <Darkside> i've been investigating that with the beaglebone
[13:02] <Darkside> and why it happened
[13:02] <Darkside> MrScienceMan: it crashed at 12km
[13:02] <Darkside> during the coldest part of the flight
[13:02] <Laurenceb> im using silicone PSA from dow corning dissolved in ethyl acetate from sigma-aldrich
[13:02] <Darkside> the current theory is that it got too cold, and the PLL lost lock
[13:02] <MrScienceMan> could've just said, "well, frostbite"
[13:02] <Laurenceb> bonds amazingly well and you can paint a thin line onto the joints
[13:02] <Darkside> heh
[13:03] <Laurenceb> works on mylar and LDPE
[13:03] <costyn> MrScienceMan: well it's nice to know why this board crashed when arduino setups seem to do ok
[13:05] <eroomde> Laurenceb: what was the issue sorry?
[13:05] <Laurenceb> how to bond the seams
[13:05] <eroomde> was that an issue?
[13:05] <Laurenceb> i thought so
[13:06] <eroomde> the issue i remember for us was finishing it off nicely at the balloon apex
[13:06] <Laurenceb> maybe not with LDPE after CUSF got the heat seal rig
[13:06] <Laurenceb> ah
[13:06] <eroomde> but we had continuous roller heaters which seemed to make very nice joints
[13:06] <eroomde> what matieral are you using then?
[13:06] <Laurenceb> mylar
[13:08] <eroomde> ah cool
[13:08] <eroomde> never tried bonding that
[13:08] <Laurenceb> the silicone PSA is good to -60 or something
[13:08] <Laurenceb> unlike other PSA
[13:09] <eroomde> cool so now 12s of the 15s is taken up with numpy generating the vectors of local oscillator, which is already using the numpy r_ and c_ primitives commands for speedy array construction. so we're basically there
[13:09] <Randomskk> wow
[13:09] <Randomskk> can't you cache those?
[13:12] <eroomde> they have to be different every millisecond
[13:12] <Laurenceb> yeah
[13:12] <Randomskk> how different?
[13:12] <Laurenceb> bah i need to get my stm32f4 gps working
[13:12] <eroomde> because the frequency tracking loop subtle adjusts the local oscillator to match the movement of the incoming signal
[13:12] <Laurenceb> you can run the costas loops at 50hz
[13:12] <Randomskk> phase+freq?
[13:12] <Laurenceb> thats how we did it at sstl
[13:12] <eroomde> so you don't know in advance - it's part of the feedback loop
[13:12] <eroomde> phase + freq yep
[13:13] <Randomskk> ah fair enough
[13:13] <Randomskk> still seems an odd thing to be taking most of the time, but meh
[13:13] <Randomskk> not a bad time either
[13:13] <eroomde> Laurenceb: yeah that doesn't surprise me actually, it seems very steady
[13:13] <eroomde> although i want to keep it at the code length because i want to do some experiments with really high dynamics
[13:13] <Laurenceb> for my thumb2 asm code i do it differently
[13:14] <eroomde> Randomskk: well it's doing lots of trig lookups. the rest are just vector mults and adds really, and a few ffts
[13:14] <Laurenceb> i integrate into integration bins
[13:14] <Laurenceb> then sometimes the bins get rotated
[13:14] <eroomde> integrate what sorry?
[13:14] <Laurenceb> im playing with doing that with a timer interrupt
[13:14] <Laurenceb> the signal
[13:14] <Laurenceb> I and Q bins after the prn is stripped out
[13:15] <Laurenceb> and prn is hardcoded into asm
[13:15] <Laurenceb> thats autogenerated by a python script
[13:16] <Laurenceb> end up with 12 channels on a stm32f4 and ~30mhz to spare
[13:16] <Randomskk> nice
[13:16] <Laurenceb> so dont try to strip out the LO
[13:16] <eroomde> this is in aquisition right?
[13:16] <Laurenceb> rotate the bins
[13:16] <Laurenceb> no
[13:16] <eroomde> i'm not following so much
[13:16] <Laurenceb> oh sorry
[13:16] <Laurenceb> you use FFT to aquire
[13:17] <eroomde> code phase parallel yep?
[13:17] <eroomde> as opposed to freq parallel
[13:17] <Laurenceb> thayes
[13:17] <eroomde> cool ok
[13:17] <Laurenceb> should take a few seconds on F4
[13:17] <Laurenceb> but i havent written it as its the easy bit
[13:18] <Laurenceb> prn removal is the hardest
[13:18] <eroomde> :)
[13:19] <Laurenceb> but hardcoded asm seems workable
[13:19] <eroomde> my friend is a cofounder of a company called zappar
[13:19] <Laurenceb> then tricks with dma to skip samples to adjust code phase
[13:19] <eroomde> he does a lot of asm tuning on arm cortex-a8 cores to get their algos running fast enough
[13:19] <eroomde> but it looks actually not that pathological, i must say
[13:20] <eroomde> from the pov of bare-metal C on a big cortex a8 chip
[13:20] <Laurenceb> atm i have about 8 instructions :P
[13:20] <Laurenceb> thumb2 is almost like BASIC
[13:26] <Laurenceb> i want a pathological autorouter
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[13:55] <eroomde> Laurenceb: so, generating local carrier seems like the most time consuming bit in my code now
[13:55] <eroomde> know any approximations for trig functions that trade accuracy for speed?
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[13:55] <eroomde> by which i mean maybe 0.1% accurate as opposed to 0.001% accuract
[13:56] <eroomde> for a big speed bump
[13:56] <eroomde> infact how do the c libs calculate it anyway? is it a cordic?
[13:56] <eroomde> if so could just lower the threshold
[13:56] <eroomde> hmm
[13:56] <eroomde> monologue
[13:56] <eroomde> helloooo
[13:56] <eroomde> ellooo
[13:56] <eroomde> lloo
[13:56] <eroomde> ...oooo...oo....o...
[13:57] <Randomskk> so
[13:57] <Randomskk> there are loads of trig functions that are approximations
[13:57] <Randomskk> also you can just use LUTs
[13:59] <Randomskk> though I just found this which looks like it might be additional fun for you
[13:59] <Randomskk> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11442191/parallelizing-a-numpy-vector-operation
[13:59] <eroomde> LUTs are a bit 1985
[13:59] <eroomde> in the days of math operations being much faster than memory lookups on modern cpus
[14:00] <Randomskk> true I guess
[14:00] <Randomskk> those megs of L1 cache are pretty speedy
[14:00] <Randomskk> or L2 or L3 or whatever I guess
[14:00] <Randomskk> probably not got megs of L1
[14:01] <eroomde> thanks for that link tho
[14:01] <Randomskk> I can't think of or find any built-in faster methods for sin
[14:03] <Randomskk> you could write something up though
[14:12] <Laurenceb> back
[14:12] <Laurenceb> sorry was assembling cables
[14:12] <Laurenceb> hmm cant say ive tried
[14:12] <Laurenceb> i use lookup tables with hex in some of my code
[14:13] <Laurenceb> i.e. sin(x) as 4bit lookup table
[14:13] <Laurenceb> then integrate through your phase and do some bit shifts to get integer lookup table index
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[14:20] <eroomde> unfort numpexr can't parse numpys fast array construction syntax
[14:20] <eroomde> but unbundling the array construction into a loop is much slower than the time saving from using numpexr to do the trig
[14:20] <eroomde> alas
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[14:24] <Randomskk> is it all running single threaded atm?
[14:24] <Randomskk> might be other places to split it up
[14:26] <eroomde> can certainly track an individual sat as a thread
[14:26] <eroomde> but i'll save that for when it gets done in a faster language anyway
[14:26] <eroomde> atm i just want it to be as fast as is pythonically reasonable
[14:27] <eroomde> where i define threading is starting to not be so pythonic
[14:27] <Randomskk> indeed
[14:28] <Darkside> mm i need to look at python threding soon..
[14:28] <Randomskk> enjoy that
[14:28] <Darkside> though its only to spawna nother python function
[14:28] <Darkside> which does some gps timing stuff
[14:29] <kokey> do you have to generate different waves often, or can just repeat a sin cycle?
[14:30] <Laurenceb> http://uncomp.uwe.ac.uk/genaro/rule54/glidersRule54.html
[14:30] <Laurenceb> omg rule 54
[14:37] <eroomde> kokey: the universe gets discretised into 1ms chunk
[14:37] <eroomde> each ms chunk contains 12000 adc samples
[14:37] <eroomde> (i.e. 12mhz sample freq)
[14:38] <Laurenceb> which frontend?
[14:38] <eroomde> each ms, some feedback loops measure how good a match the local oscillator frequency is to the sattelite carrier frequency
[14:39] <eroomde> so each ms that feedback loop will make and adjustment to the local oscillator frequency so that it better matches the sattelite's transmitting frequency and phase
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[14:39] <eroomde> so, each ms in this software receiver i have to make a function that generate a 12000 long matrix of local oscillator, which means 12000 calls each to sin and cos (I and Q)
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[14:40] <eroomde> and it's that bit that is taking the time i think, though i am about to try and different method os constructing the vecotrs that might be quicker
[14:40] <Randomskk> seems like at the least you could maybe generate it a few times and copy/fake-copy
[14:40] <Randomskk> if there comes a point in that cycle where it repeats
[14:40] <eroomde> expad
[14:40] <eroomde> expand*
[14:41] <Randomskk> just do the indexing modulus the repetition period
[14:42] <upix> is there any performace difference between monolithic and threaded coax cable?
[14:42] <eroomde> ah sure. i don;t know if it caches that anyway
[14:42] <Randomskk> not sure
[14:42] <Randomskk> but your repeated sin/cos values will probably sit very high up in cpu cache if you do that
[14:42] <Randomskk> not to mention only have to calculate a few of them
[14:43] <eroomde> you only need to assuming the same rate is an integer factor of the frequency
[14:43] <eroomde> but it might not be
[14:43] <Randomskk> it could still repeat at the lowest common multiple or wahtever
[14:43] <Randomskk> whatever*
[14:44] <eroomde> sure, but that could be well outside the 1ms chunk
[14:44] <eroomde> it tracks down to centi-hertz
[14:45] <Randomskk> yea possibly
[14:45] <Randomskk> you might also be able to approximate :P
[14:45] <eroomde> will have a bash at rejigging array construction frst
[14:45] <Randomskk> seems reasonable
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[14:59] <eroomde> you're safe UpuWork
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[15:13] <[1]Hix> Afternoon peeps!
[15:13] <[1]Hix> What is the average time you guys have experienced from Seeedstudio for pcb orders?
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[15:15] <eroomde> got from 19s to 16s with numexpr on the local oscillator stuff
[15:15] <eroomde> better than a slap in the face with a wet fish i guess
[15:16] <Randomskk> [1]Hix: two weeks plus minus a week
[15:16] <Randomskk> eroomde: elps
[15:16] <Randomskk> helps*
[15:16] <Randomskk> that's nearly 1s/s?
[15:17] <eroomde> just about
[15:19] <DrLuke> where do you guys order your balloons?
[15:19] <[1]Hix> cheers Randomskk
[15:20] <eroomde> DrLuke Random Engineering
[15:20] <eroomde> run by a habber
[15:20] <DrLuke> thanks
[15:24] <upix> is there any performace difference between monolithic and threaded coax cable?
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[15:31] <eroomde> upix: i have no idea in principle
[15:31] <eroomde> if you are looking at two things infront of you to buy, the datasheets will tell you the losses in db per meters at given frequencies
[15:32] <eroomde> which is the only metric for 'performance' of coax that i suspect you're asking about
[15:32] <eroomde> unless you always want to use it to swing from roof to roof
[15:32] <craag> What is 'monolithic' and 'threaded'?
[15:32] <eroomde> also*
[15:34] <craag> upix: Do you mean solid vs multistrand?
[15:35] <upix> yea
[15:35] <craag> Core or outer?
[15:35] <craag> solid outer is wonderfully low-loss but only really for installation. Also expensive.
[15:36] <upix> core
[15:37] <Laurenceb> it goes up to mental frequencies too
[15:37] <Laurenceb> used a lot on comm sats
[15:37] <Laurenceb> - the solid
[15:37] <craag> Core won't make nearly as much difference as dialectric etc.
[15:38] <craag> You're better off looking for db loss per 100m at ~430MHz.
[15:38] <eroomde> dialectric, your buttcheeks is warm
[15:38] <craag> I'm pretty sure I've spelt it wrong...
[15:42] <craag> *dielectric
[15:43] <upix> what about outer layer threaded vs threaded + foil
[15:43] <upix> or is that what you mean by solid
[15:43] <craag> + foil would be better.
[15:43] <craag> No, solid is solid, like you can't bend it less than 2 feet diameter!
[15:44] <craag> But use this page to look up the loss: http://www.timesmicrowave.com/cgi-bin/calculate.pl
[15:46] <Randomskk> craag: does it come coiled?
[15:47] <craag> Yep, but on big drums, usually 3 foot diameter or more.
[15:47] <Randomskk> nice
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[15:53] <joph> wow, shipping is expensive at hobbyking
[15:53] <Randomskk> they have a UK warehouse
[15:53] <Randomskk> which can do cheaper shipping on some items
[15:53] <Randomskk> well
[15:53] <Randomskk> where are you?
[15:53] <Randomskk> I didn't find their shipping generally too bad before
[15:53] <Randomskk> (though I do have a high tolerance for shipping costs)
[15:56] <joph> germany
[15:57] <Randomskk> I think they might have a german warehouse too (or EU at any rate) though I'm not sure
[15:57] <joph> i've got 4kg of load which makes around $53 shipping
[15:57] <joph> yes, they have
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[15:57] <joph> may i have a look at the glider out of the german warehouse
[15:57] <Randomskk> $53 for 4kg doesn't seem unreasonable
[16:01] <joph> i think so too
[16:02] <joph> but i'm looking if i could save shipping costs
[16:03] <joph> i'm looging if it could be cheaper if i get it from eu/uk/de warehouse
[16:14] <joph> did anyone of you order this one? http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__16404__Predator_UAV_74in_Spy_Plane_ARF_DE_Warehouse_.html
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[16:16] <Lunar_Lander> hi
[16:19] <DrLuke> http://i.imgur.com/ijyo1.jpg
[16:19] <DrLuke> first color picture from MSL I believe
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[16:30] <nigelvh> Pretty dusty
[16:30] <russss> the dust cover's still on
[16:31] <nigelvh> That could do it.
[16:31] <russss> they can't remove it until they un-stow the arm that camera's on, which will be in a couple of weeks time
[16:31] <nigelvh> Makes sense.
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[16:31] <nigelvh> I would be so impatient. Get the arm out, lets go driving!
[16:32] <nigelvh> Lets laser some rocks!
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[16:36] <Lunar_Lander> hi nigelvh
[16:39] <nigelvh> Howdy
[16:39] <nigelvh> On your way back from mars and stopped by the moon did you?
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[16:44] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[16:51] <DrLuke> oh hi lunar
[16:55] <Lunar_Lander> hi DrLuke
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[16:56] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[16:56] <Lunar_Lander> molecular physics coming up on Thursday
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[17:00] <DrLuke> lunar_lander: university?
[17:01] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[17:01] <DrLuke> cool, I'm enrolling this year
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[17:01] <Lunar_Lander> cool, what subject?
[17:01] <DrLuke> I'm gonna study Electrical Engineering in Karlsruhe
[17:01] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[17:01] <kp49> hi
[17:01] <DrLuke> hi
[17:02] <kp49> this is the UKHAS freenode thing right :)
[17:02] <DrLuke> I'm pretty excited, although I don't look forward to all the maths
[17:02] <DrLuke> Yep
[17:02] <DrLuke> This is it, in all its glory
[17:02] <kp49> hey so i applied for launch permission from the CAA
[17:02] <kp49> they havent replied for 2 weeks now
[17:02] <Upu> evening kp49
[17:02] <Upu> thats normal
[17:02] <kp49> evening Upu
[17:02] <DrLuke> bureaucrats
[17:02] <kp49> is it?
[17:02] <Upu> where are you launching from ?
[17:02] <Upu> and when did you appluy for ?
[17:02] <kp49> when do they get back to you? and banbury
[17:03] <kp49> i applied for exactly 28 days after i sent it
[17:03] <kp49> so i think that was the 18th
[17:03] <kp49> or the 19th
[17:03] <kp49> something like that
[17:03] <Upu> ok
[17:03] <kp49> so i heard you guys have blanket permission? any chance i could borrow that :P
[17:03] <Upu> about a week before call David Miller
[17:03] <Upu> and politely ask him
[17:04] <Upu> he seems to work better when you give him an exact date and time
[17:04] <Upu> there is Elsworth (Speak to Rocketboy)
[17:04] <kp49> wow how do i get in touch with all these people?
[17:04] <Upu> and Cambridge (speak to the CUSF team, jonsowman etc)
[17:04] <jonsowman> evening
[17:04] <kp49> and in your experience when do the CAA get back to you
[17:04] <Upu> like that
[17:05] <jonsowman> kp49: contact@cusf.co.uk
[17:05] <Upu> well generally the day before the launch :)
[17:05] <jonsowman> if you want to use our site
[17:06] <kp49> thanks jon
[17:06] <Upu> is your payload ready ?
[17:06] <kp49> yes nearly
[17:07] <jonsowman> no problem :)
[17:07] <Upu> get a document submitted so you can test it
[17:07] <kp49> it *could * go up now, but in a few days time, my friends coming with a go pro so it would be a lot better
[17:07] <kp49> sorry upu what document
[17:07] <Upu> kp49 don't put it in the case (the gopro) and don't use antimist inserts
[17:07] <Upu> payload document
[17:07] <Upu> how are you transmitting your location ?
[17:08] <kp49> gps tracker and old phone
[17:08] <kp49> i dont really understand amateur radios, ortherwise i would have used them
[17:08] <kp49> pity, because they look really cool :)
[17:08] <Upu> ah ok
[17:08] <Upu> can I make a suggestion, especially if you're using a GoPro
[17:08] <kp49> continue all help is appreciated
[17:08] <Upu> Go read : http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:linkingarduinotontx2
[17:09] <kp49> k - brb
[17:09] <Gadget-Mac> Where's the best place to get an ntx2 from ?
[17:09] <Upu> http://ava.upuaut.net/store
[17:09] <Upu> kp49 I would use the GSm as a backup
[17:10] <kp49> I sort - of understand, but it looks complex, and there's two cameras riding up there
[17:10] <Upu> but really I don't think I'm going to be the only one in saying radio is the best way to do it
[17:10] <kp49> the GPS tracker i have is the Tk-103-2
[17:10] <Upu> exactly
[17:10] <Upu> want to loose them ? :)
[17:10] <jonsowman> kp49: Upu is right - it's really worth the time and experience building a small radio tracker
[17:10] <Gadget-Mac> Upu: You got stock ?
[17:10] <jonsowman> we say this to everyone, we're not picking on you, i promise
[17:10] <kp49> :)
[17:11] <kp49> well whats the cost? like, is it just the circuit board + chips, or do i need some sort of receiver?
[17:11] <Upu> it looks complex but if you have a micro controller and its transmitting its location via GSM you really shouldn't have too many issues with adding a radio
[17:11] <Upu> cost for the NTX2 is on my store its about £16 or something
[17:11] <Upu> yes Gadget-Mac
[17:11] <Gadget-Mac> ooh, you've got SDR sticks as well
[17:12] <jonsowman> kp49: lots of people on here will tune in and help track if you have a radio beacon
[17:12] <Upu> and you can use an SDR to receive
[17:12] <Upu> and if you get a radio beacon you get 20+ people who will track for you
[17:12] <kp49> sorry, whats an SDR ?
[17:12] <Upu> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:sdr_tracker
[17:12] <Upu> Software Defined Radio
[17:12] <Upu> normally you'd need a £600 amateur radio receiver
[17:12] <Upu> however...
[17:12] <kp49> im a bit confused, if I put up a radio, then why will it augment the tracking if more people do it?
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[17:13] <Upu> ok
[17:13] <Upu> GSM
[17:13] <Upu> stops working ~2km
[17:13] <Upu> it may or may not pick up again on the way down , it may or may not land in a GSM area
[17:14] <Upu> Radio transmits constantly from 0 to 36km and back again all the time, if one person doesn't quite receive a packet its likely someone else will so you get live, constant location updates
[17:14] <kp49> hence the double tracking. the phone is on a different network to the tracker, and the tracker has an external antenna that i plan to incorporate into the parachute somehow
[17:14] <DrLuke> kp49: they might receive it while you don't
[17:15] <Upu> I don't know what GPS your using either but generally the GSM tracker ones will lock up above 18km
[17:15] <kp49> wow, well as much as i'd love to give this a go, i feel totally out of my depth.
[17:15] <Gadget-Mac> Upu: which nxt2 module should I be getting ?
[17:15] <Upu> like jonsowman says please don't think we are having a go here, but based on the balance of over 100 flights radio trackers have proven more reliable
[17:15] <kp49> and yes, agreed with 18km, but both models have features for this case
[17:15] <Upu> either or Gadget-Mac doesn't really matter
[17:15] <DrLuke> kp49: even if you fail, you'll learn and gain experience, and you'll know better the next time
[17:15] <kp49> incase there's no signal, they store the coordinates and broadcast when they next get it.
[17:16] <eroomde> when are they going to 'next get it' when they've landed in a field that doesn't have gsm coverage?
[17:16] <fsphil> they may not get one. they don't move much after landing
[17:16] <fsphil> unless you landed in the ocean
[17:16] <eroomde> gsm coverage is about 100 times worse right on the ground than at head height
[17:16] <kp49> DrLuke: I'm a bit far gone with the old equipment though..... I'm definately going to do this again, so perhaps then
[17:17] <DrLuke> maybe you don't want to put a gpro on your first flight
[17:17] <kp49> ermoomde: if there's connection at head height, o
[17:17] <DrLuke> I'm sure I won't
[17:17] <kp49> won't it grab it on the way down?
[17:17] <Upu> may not have time
[17:17] <kp49> yeah thats a good point
[17:17] <kp49> about the GoPro
[17:17] <kp49> the other camera is an old SD camcorder which is on the way out anyway.,
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[17:18] <DrLuke> yep, only put stuff on it you can afford to loose ;)
[17:18] <Upu> kp49 as someone whos flight was recovered by a GSM tracker because my radio failed I know GSM does work
[17:18] <Upu> however my payload landed 5 miles out to sea
[17:18] <kp49> :DrLuke you make a good point
[17:19] <Upu> I was incredibly lucky to get it back
[17:19] <DrLuke> I#ve bought myself a Nokia 6210
[17:19] <DrLuke> Wow Upu, did it get washed back to the shore?
[17:19] <kp49> :Upu did the predictions not work?
[17:19] <Upu> the other thing is with a radio you can direction find it so even if its dead as long as its transmitting you can still in theory find it
[17:19] <Upu> DrLuke a boat :)
[17:19] <DrLuke> haha, that's pretty cool
[17:19] <Upu> kp49 balloon didn't burst due to not enough gas in it
[17:19] <kp49> Wow, so how did it come back so fast?
[17:20] <kp49> wouldn't it just float at a given altitude and end up over the continent?
[17:20] <DrLuke> that reminds me, I need to put a reward-message on my todo-list
[17:20] <Upu> http://ava.upuaut.net/?p=155
[17:20] <DrLuke> it probably didn't ascend fast enough is what he meant
[17:20] <Upu> there are some videos too
[17:20] <DrLuke> or pop soon enough
[17:20] <Upu> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcbykWjsQrI&feature=player_embedded
[17:21] <kp49> Ok so i think for this launch im gonna use stuff that im fine with loosing, and use a gsm antenna
[17:21] <kp49> but for the next one, i'll read up about radio building and test that out
[17:21] <Upu> whats your micro controller ?
[17:21] <DrLuke> upu: were the electronics fried?
[17:21] <kp49> and hopefully, some of my kit would still be operational, and i couuld do that
[17:21] <Upu> yeah
[17:21] <Upu> 18 hours in the sea
[17:22] <DrLuke> ouch
[17:22] <DrLuke> atleast you got the pictures
[17:22] <Upu> camera still ran for about 6 hours though
[17:22] <kp49> wow, Upu: how did you find it with fried electronics?
[17:22] <Upu> got some lovely pics
[17:22] <Upu> kp49 GSM tracker floated close enough into shore to get a signal
[17:22] <Upu> it was water proof
[17:22] <DrLuke> did you ever completely loose a payload?
[17:23] <kp49> saved by gsm? thats a weird ending :P
[17:23] <fsphil> it does sometimes happen
[17:23] <fsphil> it's always good to have a backup
[17:23] <Upu> however
[17:23] <Upu> I use it as an example
[17:23] <Upu> as it "floated close enough to shore"
[17:23] <Upu> I got super lucky
[17:23] <kp49> hahaha i was kidding
[17:24] <DrLuke> well, I'm going to launch in the black forest in germany
[17:24] <Upu> whats your microcontroller kp49 ?
[17:24] <DrLuke> so I need to prepare a very long stick
[17:24] <daveake> I got similarly lucky with one of mine. Landed 600m out and came in on the tide
[17:24] <Upu> DrLuke we tend to have an extendable pole with us
[17:24] <kp49> worry upu what is that
[17:24] <Upu> sec
[17:24] <kp49> and my thing is totally waterproof
[17:25] <Upu> picture and all that
[17:25] <Upu> https://picasaweb.google.com/118244444241111963790/201107ManLab#5635427324984205666
[17:25] <DrLuke> upu: exactly what I need, I'll have to look around in my local hardware store
[17:25] <Upu> I think Robs pole is bigger than daveake;s
[17:25] <DrLuke> that sounds dirty
[17:25] <DrLuke> :P
[17:26] <DrLuke> what is it made out of?
[17:26] <kp49> which is the microcontroller? is that like the main chip
[17:26] <DrLuke> yes
[17:26] <kp49> because im not really using one.
[17:26] <DrLuke> I presume arduino
[17:26] <DrLuke> oh
[17:26] <kp49> im using the tk 103 as altitude measure and gps tracker
[17:26] <kp49> the purpose is to get some personal pictures with tech i have / can be sold on
[17:26] <daveake> My pole in use - http://www.flickr.com/photos/daveake/6892064294/in/set-72157629717191599
[17:27] <Upu> thats our cut down mechanism
[17:27] <daveake> patent pending
[17:27] <DrLuke> :P
[17:27] <kp49> for the next launch, im planning to get into the whole radio building thing. I want to someday build my own sonde set up, with gps, temp, pressure, everything
[17:28] <DrLuke> then you'll need a microcontroller
[17:28] <DrLuke> a micro is just like a very tiny computer, it almost everything it needs inside a single chip
[17:28] <kp49> wow sounds cool
[17:28] <DrLuke> you'll eventually need one if you want to send signals back
[17:28] <kp49> schools gonna start soon, i think i'll get my electronics teacher to help me through this.
[17:29] <kp49> but first this (noob) launch
[17:29] <DrLuke> look up arduino if you want to go the easy way, avr if you prefer a more steep learning curve
[17:29] <DrLuke> oh hey, you gotta start somewhere
[17:29] <kp49> i'll use the avr if my teacher helps
[17:29] <kp49> if not, the arduino
[17:29] <upix> or cortex if u need power
[17:29] <kp49> hey thanks man
[17:29] <DrLuke> the arduino is cheaper and a lot easier to get in at first
[17:29] <kp49> and i dont think the activity i'll be doing will need much power
[17:30] <DrLuke> yeah an AVR will be more than enough
[17:30] <DrLuke> (arduino runs on AVRs)
[17:30] <griffonbot> Received email: kartik prabhu "[UKHAS] Weather Balloon"
[17:30] <griffonbot> Received email: Oliver de Peyer "[UKHAS] Anybody in the Bath area?"
[17:30] <kp49> oh the kartik prabhu thing is my friend
[17:31] <DrLuke> hehe, bath
[17:31] <kp49> i asked him to see if he could get in touch
[17:31] <kp49> disregard it - you guys are invaluable enough on this forum thingy
[17:31] <DrLuke> chat
[17:31] <kp49> *chat
[17:32] <DrLuke> :P
[17:32] <DrLuke> I hope my NTX2 arrives soon
[17:32] Action: DrLuke looks at upu
[17:32] <DrLuke> :P
[17:32] <Upu> Did I post it ?
[17:32] <kp49> ok, so basically youve told me , radio > gms, first launch so go easy, and ask david miller about launch right
[17:32] <DrLuke> I got an email that said "order completed"
[17:33] <Upu> when was that ?
[17:33] <kp49> have you guys gone through the CAA? and can you guys tell me your experience? is 2 weeks waiting time normal? is it a formality, and can i launch anyway
[17:33] <DrLuke> yesterday afternoon
[17:33] <Upu> you have to have permission kp49
[17:33] <kp49> Got it.
[17:33] <Upu> they will send you a permission to launch without that you must not launch
[17:33] <Upu> ok DrLuke its on the way then
[17:33] <DrLuke> Never launch without permission, fines can go into the 6-figure area
[17:33] <kp49> unless david miller lets me
[17:34] <DrLuke> ok thanks upu
[17:34] <kp49> right?
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[17:34] <Upu> he'll send you the authority as a PDF
[17:34] <Upu> no authority no launch
[17:34] <Lunar_Lander> hi upix
[17:34] <kp49> makes sense
[17:34] <Lunar_Lander> and Upu
[17:34] <Upu> hello Lunar
[17:34] <upix> hey Lunar_Lander
[17:34] <kp49> how quick are the CAA. like leaving the jokes aside
[17:34] <daveake> depends
[17:35] <Upu> kp49 if you're not hear a week before give them a call
[17:35] <daveake> +1
[17:35] <Upu> you need to speak to David Miller
[17:35] <daveake> Call a few days before the launch, to ask if it's going to be OK
[17:35] <Upu> he will sound like a small lost and surprised child
[17:35] <DrLuke> I need to give my local authorities a call, too
[17:35] <fsphil> "Airspace Specialist 5
[17:35] <fsphil> "
[17:36] <Upu> and promise it will be done
[17:36] <Upu> then call him 2 days before when you haven't heard anything
[17:36] <daveake> I've never spoken to him; I let Julie do that on the first 2 launches
[17:36] <daveake> Since then no reminder needed
[17:36] <eroomde> i have spoken to him many times
[17:36] <eroomde> if you believe what people say at face value, he is the busiest human being in the world
[17:36] <Upu> yep thats the impression I get too
[17:36] <eroomde> if you read between the lines, he is a
[17:37] <Lunar_Lander> Upu, the antenna pins on my old NTX2 (not the one from you) broke off
[17:37] <daveake> I've found him very helpful even when I've given him rather less than the 28 days notice
[17:37] <Lunar_Lander> :(
[17:37] <DrLuke> :(
[17:37] <Upu> post it over i'll solder one back on for you if you pay for the postage
[17:37] <fsphil> they don't break easily
[17:37] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[17:37] <Lunar_Lander> sorry, I am in a mess again
[17:37] <daveake> NTX2? Just solder more on
[17:37] <daveake> Easy
[17:37] <Upu> or what daveake says
[17:37] <Lunar_Lander> thursday is an exam, my mother shouts like insane
[17:38] <daveake> The pads are very solid; only the pin will have broken
[17:38] <DrLuke> I know that feel bro ;(
[17:38] <kp49> so david miller ain't a great guy?
[17:38] <fsphil> tip: don't let a monkey take notes for you in class
[17:38] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[17:38] <daveake> Who said that?
[17:38] <Upu> he's an amazing human being
[17:38] <Upu> don't even say otherwise
[17:38] <daveake> He's always sorted me out :)
[17:38] <Upu> sometimes he just needs a little encouragment
[17:38] <kp49> well thats great then
[17:38] <daveake> yep
[17:38] <Upu> or just say you're with Dave Akerman
[17:38] <fsphil> hah
[17:38] <daveake> lol
[17:38] <kp49> well i'll give him a call
[17:38] <kp49> whos dave akerman
[17:38] <daveake> Yes apparently that works :D
[17:39] <Lunar_Lander> fsphil, I got a list of questions, like file cards
[17:39] <daveake> <<<
[17:39] <fsphil> there's an application form for a notam kp49
[17:39] <Lunar_Lander> and we were told to revise these
[17:39] <fsphil> much better than a monkey. you'd never read its handwriting
[17:39] <daveake> But don't say you're with me :D
[17:39] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[17:40] <Lunar_Lander> atomic physics, molecular physics/quantum chemistry, spectroscopy and group theory/symmetry
[17:40] <kp49> okay, so is David Miller part of UKHAS?
[17:40] <kp49> or a CAA guy
[17:40] <eroomde> CAA
[17:41] <kp49> ok great. and he will be able to help me with my application right
[17:41] <DrLuke> what the christ https://picasaweb.google.com/118244444241111963790/201107ManLab#5635427369673273218
[17:41] <fsphil> that poor dog
[17:41] <Lunar_Lander> fsphil, the crap thing was that I got a library book that expired tomorrow and I exhausted the maximum number of loan time extensions
[17:41] <eroomde> for a certain kind of fetish
[17:41] <Lunar_Lander> so I got to town and returned it today
[17:42] <kp49> oh jesus
[17:42] <kp49> scarred for life mate
[17:42] <Lunar_Lander> and that lost me another 2 h
[17:42] <fsphil> Man Lab: Uncut
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[17:42] <Lunar_Lander> other option would have been to pay the 2 euro penalty after the exam
[17:42] <kp49> https://picasaweb.google.com/118244444241111963790/201107ManLab#5635427441036092866 whos sending pikachu into space
[17:42] <fsphil> 2 euro? don't worry about it :P
[17:42] <DrLuke> https://picasaweb.google.com/118244444241111963790/201107ManLab#5635427705717282802 is that james may?
[17:42] <Lunar_Lander> who's the woman?
[17:43] <Lunar_Lander> DrLuke, yeah
[17:43] <DrLuke> awesome
[17:43] <fsphil> that's james and rob
[17:45] <eroomde> one's a media personality
[17:45] <kp49> called david miller. just realized its gone six so hes probs not there. also, i was pretty sure that i called him b4, his number is on the sheet.
[17:45] <eroomde> the other one presents top gear
[17:46] <kp49> is his email easier to reach
[17:46] <eroomde> depends how far away your monitor is
[17:47] <kp49> :)
[17:47] <DrLuke> haha
[17:47] <Upu> afk
[17:47] <DrLuke> just try it tomorrow then
[17:47] <eroomde> david dot miller at caa dot co dot uk
[17:47] <kp49> thanks guys
[17:47] <kp49> so useful
[17:48] <DrLuke> I wonder why you brits have that .co.uk and .org.uk stuff
[17:48] <kp49> i finally have an idea whats going on
[17:48] <kp49> dont americans have .co.us?
[17:48] <DrLuke> yep kp49, they're a really helpful bunch
[17:48] <kp49> or .us
[17:48] <Lunar_Lander> sometimes
[17:48] <Lunar_Lander> normally they use .com
[17:49] <DrLuke> goddamnit windows, printing can't be THAT hard
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[17:51] <griffonbot> Received email: Ed Moore "Re: [UKHAS] Weather Balloon"
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[17:59] Nick change: danielsaul -> Guest99577
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[18:03] <joph> http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__19992__Phoenix_2000_EPO_Composite_R_C_Glider_ARF_DE_Warehouse_.html http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__24699__HobbyKing_Ventus_2_3m_EPO_Glider_KIT_DE_Warehouse_.html the phoenix 2000 looks better or is the other one better?
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[18:15] Nick change: Guest99577 -> danielsaul
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[18:18] <Laurenceb_> eroomde: ping
[18:19] <Laurenceb_> https://github.com/Laurenceb/STM32-Logger/blob/master/Sensors/ppg_new.c
[18:19] <Laurenceb_> ^some fairly simple 3 channel OFDM code i wrote using integer lookup for sin
[18:20] <Lunar_Lander> one of our weight lifters was struck by the 196 kg dumbbell today
[18:20] <Laurenceb_> dunno if you could do similar in python, or if it would be fast
[18:22] <costyn> Lunar_Lander: sounds painful
[18:22] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[18:23] <Lunar_Lander> and then three men came with some sort of transparancy with the Olympics logo and they held it in front of the man while he was attended help
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[18:26] <DrLuke> lunar_lander: standard procedure
[18:26] <DrLuke> they did the same in beijing
[18:27] <Lunar_Lander> yea
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[18:28] <DrLuke> tomorrow starts my first job ever
[18:28] <DrLuke> kinda excited, it will pay for my HAB
[18:28] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[18:28] <Lunar_Lander> what will you do?
[18:28] <DrLuke> It's a holiday job at Daimler, so probably assemble something
[18:29] <DrLuke> Normally I wouldn't be willing to do this kind of work, but they pay really good for soon-to-be students
[18:30] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[18:30] <Lunar_Lander> cool!
[18:30] <DrLuke> yep :)
[18:30] <eroomde> as soon i read 'normally i wouldn't be willing to do this kind of thing' i knew something about being a student was coming
[18:30] <eroomde> get used to it :)
[18:31] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[18:31] <DrLuke> haha
[18:31] <DrLuke> afk
[18:31] <nick_> "Normally I wouldn't be willing to do this kinda thing, but I just started taking meth..."
[18:32] <Randomskk> meth can really cloud your judgement
[18:34] <eroomde> there is a madness to this meth
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[18:36] Action: Laurenceb_ looks at his code and realises hes done volatile wrong
[18:39] <Laurenceb_> durrr
[18:40] <MrScienceMan> comment it out
[18:43] <Randomskk> oh what
[18:43] <Randomskk> https://github.com/DanBurton/tardis
[18:44] <Randomskk> TardisT is a monad transformer that provides state operations that allow you to send information to both the future and the past, as well as receive information from both directions.
[18:47] <Laurenceb_> haha
[18:50] <daveake> If I needed such a thing, I'd wait till I had time to write it, then use it to send itself back in time to when I actually needed it
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[18:52] <nigelvh> Hey all, mind taking a glance at my transmitter schematic? I've been chatting with KT5TK and it's loosely based on (the radio portion) of his design.
[18:52] <nigelvh> https://k7nvh.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/XMIT_SCH.png
[18:52] <Randomskk> hahaha adf7012
[18:52] <Randomskk> enjoy that
[18:53] <nigelvh> That's not encouraging.
[18:53] <Randomskk> I've seen his design too iirc actually and it is quite neat
[18:53] <Randomskk> I predict frustration getting the 7012 to work quite how you want, but when it is working it's pretty fun
[18:54] <nigelvh> The goal is a three band (2m, 70cm, 33cm) transmitter with as few physical changes as possible.
[18:54] <Randomskk> it's certainly a great IC for that
[18:54] <Randomskk> though you might find the PLL parts need respeccing
[18:54] <Randomskk> for different frequenceis
[18:54] <Randomskk> but hey, maybe not -- did you use their design studio thing?
[18:55] <nigelvh> That's why I've got those two coils between JP1 and JP2
[18:55] <Randomskk> I mean PLL loop filter, not VCO
[18:55] <Randomskk> though incidentally I'd probably just put two footprints down rather than jumpers
[18:55] <Randomskk> unless you want to be able to swap band by swapping the jumpers
[18:55] <Randomskk> but the impedance of those PCB tracks, the headers and the jumpers is going to be well on the order of your actual inductors
[18:56] <nigelvh> They're not actual pin jumpers. They're very small solder pads to connect them.
[18:56] <Randomskk> is the AUDIO into VC on your oscillator for what it looks like?
[18:57] <Randomskk> fair enough, though still likely to be an issue (also in eagle there's an SJ part for that)
[18:57] <nigelvh> I just found one in the sparkfun library
[18:57] <nigelvh> For the audio, yes, to modulate the VCXO
[18:57] <Randomskk> with the two filters, are you planning to just fit one of three?
[18:57] <Randomskk> or fit all three?
[18:58] <nigelvh> All three. I modeled the impedance (granted it's a model) and it's not too horrible.
[18:58] <Randomskk> wow.
[18:58] <Randomskk> so it's a triple passband then?
[18:58] <nigelvh> Yep
[18:58] <Randomskk> will definitely be impressive if it works
[18:58] <Randomskk> sure you need a double filter?
[18:59] <nigelvh> Also I figure when I finish designing the board and order the bits, I'll just assemble one filter and put my VNA on it and get some real data.
[18:59] <Randomskk> sensible
[18:59] <Randomskk> well I mean the adf7012 part all looks perfectly reasonable
[18:59] <Randomskk> though I'd still be a little cautious about the solder jumpers you might get away with it
[18:59] <nigelvh> I don't know if I need the double filter, but it's probably not a bad idea.
[18:59] <nigelvh> Yeah, I plan on making those as absoloutely short as possible.
[19:00] <Randomskk> generally all I'd say about that chip is that the datasheet is worse than it first appears and it can be a right pain to make the PLL lock
[19:00] <Randomskk> and sometimes it locks but is hugely temperature sensitive
[19:00] <nigelvh> Hmm.
[19:00] <Randomskk> or perhaps it's fairer to say its working frequency range is not generally all that big for a given set of components
[19:00] <Randomskk> and trying to lock outside of that can be a pain
[19:00] <nigelvh> Yes, I looked at the graph they've got.
[19:01] <Randomskk> as in, my final flight hardware had bootup code that did a parameter scan on the VCO bias and VCO adjust registers
[19:01] <nigelvh> I think the 2nH inductor should get me 33cm, then can be divided to 70cm. Then the 10nH is necessary for 2m.
[19:01] <Randomskk> and iterated through both to find values that locked okay
[19:01] <Randomskk> and continued monitoring lock during flight
[19:01] <Randomskk> uh
[19:02] <Randomskk> so, that's a thing
[19:02] <Randomskk> definitely -- definitely -- hook MUXOUT to a GPIO
[19:02] <nigelvh> That's an excellent point. I should monitor the lock signal
[19:03] <Randomskk> for reference https://github.com/adamgreig/wombat/blob/master/code/adf.c#L345-360
[19:03] <Randomskk> https://github.com/adamgreig/wombat/blob/master/pcb/wombat.pdf?raw=true
[19:03] <Randomskk> https://github.com/adamgreig/wombat etc
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[19:04] <nigelvh> That also reminds me I need to come up with some fancy name for it.
[19:05] <nigelvh> You've all got Wombat and PecanNut and whatnot.
[19:05] <nigelvh> So far I call it XMITTR
[19:06] <Randomskk> also I have no idea if that audio modulation will work
[19:06] <Randomskk> I mean, maybe?
[19:06] <Randomskk> depends on the PLL filter
[19:06] <nigelvh> I chose a rather wide bandwidth filter.
[19:07] <nigelvh> It's a good bit wider than another chosen by these guys: http://rev0proto.com/wiki/index.php/ADF7012 and it worked for them.
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[19:11] <Randomskk> yea but bear in mind
[19:11] <Randomskk> pll filter design is stupid magic
[19:11] <Randomskk> ooh looks like they have more info since I last checked them
[19:11] <Randomskk> anyway is your pll bandwidth wide enough for audio modulation? be interesting to see how that works
[19:11] <nigelvh> For me lots of RF is stupid magic. I'm mostly basing my design off models or other people's results.
[19:11] <Randomskk> I'd have thought it might massively overmodulate due to the PLL
[19:12] <Randomskk> RF is magic but PLL is harder on account of mostly being annoying nonlinear maths
[19:12] <Randomskk> I once derived a (simplified) pll theory of operation and it's such a faff
[19:12] <Randomskk> like pages of really annoying algebra and at the end of the day you're like "well. what."
[19:12] <Randomskk> you get that stupid graph like /|/|/|/| and hopefully that means it locks
[19:12] <nigelvh> Yeah.
[19:13] <Randomskk> and that wasn't fractional N, which thankfully mostly works the same
[19:13] <Randomskk> but is just way more complex inside >_>
[19:13] <nigelvh> Anyway, it's my first foray into making a transmitter. I won't be crushed if it doesn't work, but the hope is to make one module that will replace all our various ones for different frequencies/bands for our balloons and rockets.
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[19:14] <Randomskk> would definitely be fun
[19:14] <nigelvh> Yeah, it's certainly been a learning experience.
[19:14] <Randomskk> put scope probe test points on most of the adf7012's outputs
[19:14] <Randomskk> be prepared to start swapping out a lot of components and playing with a lot of those adjustment registers
[19:14] <Randomskk> do let me know how it goes as well so if it works I can try and copy it :P
[19:15] <Randomskk> (conversely feel free to poke me if you get stuck, I might have been in the same place)
[19:15] <nigelvh> Yeah. I'm certain to post a blog or two about it, so I'll let you know.
[19:15] <Randomskk> (I've spent _hours_ staying in the lab til dawn debugging the stupid things)
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[19:16] <nigelvh> Luckily most everything on the board is passive, so that helps. And really the 7012 is my main concern. The others are a bit simpler.
[19:16] <Randomskk> yea definitely
[19:16] <Randomskk> I had a whole heap of fun with loads of bits at once!
[19:16] <nigelvh> Also, I upped the power a little bit from PecanNut
[19:16] <Randomskk> like the stupid bloody SAW+LNA+SAW filter for the GPS
[19:16] <DrLuke> http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/674237main_PIA16001-43_946-710.jpg
[19:16] <Randomskk> which it turns out has a shunt to ground at the antenna input
[19:17] <nigelvh> I'm hoping to get about 250mW out
[19:17] <Randomskk> but I didn't know that until after probing to check for shorts and seeing continuity between the antenna and ground
[19:17] <Randomskk> cry
[19:17] <nigelvh> That would indeed be sad.
[19:17] <russss> DrLuke: better res image here: http://www.uahirise.org/images/2012/details/cut/landing_site_annotated.jpg
[19:18] <Randomskk> nigelvh: not as sad as desoldering it (and incidentally it's /such/ a bad package)
[19:18] <Randomskk> then resoldering a new one
[19:18] <Randomskk> finding the same short
[19:18] <nigelvh> Ouch
[19:18] <Randomskk> knocking the antenna off in the process, removing the pad
[19:18] <Randomskk> eventually resoldering an antenna via a wire to the track...
[19:18] <nigelvh> I HATE that.
[19:18] <Lunar_Lander> russss, cool
[19:18] <Randomskk> the package was one of those exciting ones with no leads
[19:18] <Randomskk> but also a stupid stupid package
[19:18] <Randomskk> uhm
[19:18] <russss> when they presented the image in the press conference, they were like "oh, this is way on the edge of the MRO's range, it's a bit crap really"
[19:18] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[19:18] <russss> and then they got a round of applause
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[19:19] <nigelvh> Looks like the sky crane went a bit splodey.
[19:19] <russss> they'll have a good pass of the landing site next week
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[19:20] <Lunar_Lander> nigelvh, xD
[19:21] <nigelvh> Anyway, thanks for the thoughts Randomskk. Like I said, it's my first foray into making a transmitter, so it's been a bit of a steep curve.
[19:21] <russss> they have zooms of all those too
[19:21] <russss> http://www.uahirise.org/images/2012/details/cut/parachute.jpg
[19:21] <Randomskk> nigelvh: aha, found it
[19:21] <Randomskk> this was the package
[19:21] <Randomskk> https://randomskk.net/u/supernemo.png
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[19:21] <Randomskk> it's like 2mm by 3mm or something
[19:21] <Randomskk> annoying as heck
[19:22] <Randomskk> yea, you're welcome
[19:22] <Randomskk> good luck!
[19:22] <nigelvh> Damn. That sucks.
[19:22] <Randomskk> it's super cool when it works
[19:22] <nigelvh> Yeah, I try to go for ones that at least have the pads exposed on the sides even if they're leadless.
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[19:23] <Lunar_Lander> WOW http://www.uahirise.org/releases/msl-descent.php
[19:23] <Lunar_Lander> the TIFF image of the whole site is 555 MB
[19:25] <nigelvh> How freaking awesome. We landed a car on another planet with a rocket powered sky crane, then we used a satellite to take pictures of it decending and after it's landed.
[19:26] <Gadget-Mac> The more amazing image http://www.uahirise.org/images/2012/details/cut/msl_parachute_heatshield.jpg
[19:26] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[19:26] <Gadget-Mac> chute, probe, and heatshield
[19:26] Nick change: number10_ -> number10
[19:29] <DrLuke> http://www.uahirise.org/images/2012/details/cut/sky_crane.jpg
[19:29] <DrLuke> haha, that's so cool
[19:29] <DrLuke> total carnage
[19:30] <DrLuke> curiosity really makes me want to work in some space related organization
[19:30] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[19:31] <Gadget-Mac> DrLuke: Kind of a shame, give the amount of fuel they didn't use. Could have landed it :)
[19:31] <DrLuke> yeah, my thought exactly
[19:31] <DrLuke> now the place is all littered up, and we barely even got there
[19:31] <Gadget-Mac> I guess it was never in the plan so no software.
[19:31] <DrLuke> yeah
[19:32] <DrLuke> http://www.uahirise.org/images/2012/details/cut/msl.jpg
[19:32] <Gadget-Mac> Speaking of which, they've got to do a software update
[19:32] <DrLuke> and there it is, the little rover that could <3
[19:32] <DrLuke> didn't they already do that?
[19:33] <Gadget-Mac> Maybe today. Still not something I'd like to be doing
[19:34] <DrLuke> yep
[19:34] <DrLuke> woops, for(;;)!
[19:34] <DrLuke> bye bye curiosity
[19:36] <nigelvh> It's a good thing they build protections for that stuff in.
[19:38] <Gadget-Mac> Given previous NASA errors I wouldn't bee so sure
[19:38] <russss> IIRC they've only ever lost one spacecraft due to a software error.
[19:38] <DrLuke> *cough* imperial to metric conversion *cough*
[19:38] <russss> and that wasn't a complete loss
[19:40] <Gadget-Mac> And their mirror problem with hubble
[19:41] <Randomskk> that wasn't exactly a software error
[19:42] Action: LazyLeopard seems to remember that the alleged units conversion issue was mostly (or possibly entirely) a media invention.
[19:43] <Lunar_Lander> the Mars Polar Lander had a software issue too
[19:43] <Lunar_Lander> the landing gear folded out and the engines cut
[19:43] <Lunar_Lander> about 1 km above the martian surface
[19:43] <Lunar_Lander> could have been avoided by an inflight update
[19:43] <russss> "The MCO MIB has determined that the root cause for the loss of the MCO spacecraft was the failure to use metric units in the coding of a ground software file, Small Forces, used in trajectory models. Specifically, thruster performance data in English units instead of metric units was used in the software application code titled SM_FORCES (small forces). "
[19:43] <LazyLeopard> That's the one definite software failure, I think?
[19:44] <russss> notably that wasn't a software error, it was a units error in the input.
[19:44] <Gadget-Mac> For anyone thats interested here's details of the data rate from Mars http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl/mission/communicationwithearth/data/
[19:45] <russss> LazyLeopard: oh yes, you're right, that was apparently a software error
[19:45] <DrLuke> it's more like a failure of engineering for whoever does that kind of stuff in imperial units
[19:49] <Gadget-Mac> Loving the DSN detail now available http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl/mission/communicationwithearth/
[19:50] Action: LazyLeopard saw a fairly detailed account of one failure which was blamed on a units issue, but that was just one small symptom of a far more general failure of the project's management. Faster, cheaper, better. Pick any two...
[19:50] <DrLuke> I choose you pikachu!
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[19:57] <Lunar_Lander> XD
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[20:11] <Laurenceb_> http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/674239main_PIA16001-full_full.jpg
[20:11] <Laurenceb_> lol skycrane blew up
[20:11] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[20:15] <russss> Laurenceb: http://www.uahirise.org/images/2012/details/cut/landing_site_annotated.jpg
[20:15] <russss> also http://www.uahirise.org/images/2012/details/cut/sky_crane.jpg
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[20:33] <Lunar_Lander> hi daveake
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[20:41] <Hiena> Hmmm...If they soft craned the rover, why the hell didn't softlanded the crane?
[20:43] <Randomskk> why bother?
[20:43] <Randomskk> better for it to burn itself out getting as far away from the lander as possible
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[20:44] <Hiena> For the crane operation, they should implement a high precision autonomous controll. They would have a nice relay station.
[20:44] <Gadget-Mac> No need though
[20:47] <Hiena> Why not? Storm damage on the rover long range communication antennaes could kill the mission. No communication to the sats, could results ana another expensive garden ornament on the Mars.
[20:49] <Randomskk> they already have relay stations in mars orbit
[20:49] <Randomskk> unless you mean long range to the sats
[20:49] <Randomskk> but it's like, line of sight
[20:50] <Randomskk> probably lose contact with the skycrane first
[20:51] <Hiena> But at the worst case it could still operate around the landed crane. Or using it as datadump point.
[20:53] <Hiena> Homebase send a weekly task to the crane, which uploads the rover, and the rover dumps back the gathered datas to the base through the crane's link.
[21:00] <fsphil> if the rover can't talk to the satellites, it's really unlikely it'll be able to talk with a ground based relay
[21:01] <Hiena> Why not? Optical communication or some other short range communication method?
[21:01] <fsphil> hehe, email on the funcube list just mentioned that MSL transmits on 401 MHz
[21:02] <fsphil> fancy a go Upu? :)
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[21:02] <Hiena> Even it could key it by some probe.
[21:02] <Gadget-Mac> Why add another point of failure in the data relay
[21:03] <Hiena> Why add another cheap backup solution?
[21:03] <Gadget-Mac> Just adds more complexity
[21:03] <fsphil> not cheap if it required them to land it safely
[21:03] <fsphil> they had good reasons for crashing the crane
[21:03] <fsphil> those pics are great, it looks like the thing properly exploded
[21:04] <Hiena> Yeah, the chinese will never reverse engineer it.
[21:06] <Gadget-Mac> http://www.uk.amsat.org/2578
[21:07] <fsphil> free parachute, http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl/images/Milkovich-3Parachute-br2.jpg
[21:08] <Laurenceb_> never mind that
[21:08] <Laurenceb_> free plutonium
[21:08] <Hiena> Ehehehe...
[21:08] <fsphil> hah
[21:09] <Hiena> It would be nice, since i'm building sand pile heater for the house.
[21:09] <Laurenceb_> didnt you see the terrorists in space suits unbolting the rtg?
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[21:11] <Hiena> Yeah, the two tiny white dots around the white blast center.
[21:11] <Laurenceb_> lol
[21:12] <Hiena> They are making dust angels.
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[21:13] <SpeedEvil> the real reason for sample-return.
[21:13] <Laurenceb_> the dust angles give them virgins in heaven
[21:13] <SpeedEvil> a petabyte of microsd
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[21:23] <Hiena> Well, time to tun in, i could barely hold the welder.
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[21:35] <craag> These ubloxs are awesome.. I've got a steady 3D fix with a 1/4 wave wire-whip antenna.
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[21:39] <Lunar_Lander> cool
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[21:48] <jcoxon> evening all
[21:48] <Randomskk> hi
[21:48] <Upu> evening
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[21:54] <Lunar_Lander> hi Upu jcoxon Randomskk nick_
[21:55] <nick_> hi
[21:55] <nick_> I thought I had broken one of my sensors but it came back to life when I reverted to my old set up
[21:57] <nick_> It's got me confused
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[22:06] <kp50> anybody home?
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[22:08] <SpeedEvil> maybe
[22:09] <SpeedEvil> :-)
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[22:14] <jcoxon> hmmmm, if the ground winds are lighter I might launch a pico on sunday
[22:17] <fsphil> yay
[22:17] <fsphil> those are always fun
[22:17] <fsphil> well mostly
[22:22] <jcoxon> http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hysplitout/10198_trj001.gif
[22:22] <jcoxon> mwhahaha
[22:23] <craag> My ublox can get a 3D lock with a 1/4 wave piece of wire, but not a single satellite with the sarantel. I think I might have broken it.
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[22:56] <griffonbot> Received email: Mark Jessop "Re: [UKHAS] Anybody in the Bath area?"
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[00:00] --- Wed Aug 8 2012