highaltitude.log.20120802

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[00:04] <mattloaf1> launching in ~90 minutes from 41.62635, -74.577624.. shot of the launch facility http://i.imgur.com/c6wfg.jpg
[00:04] <Randomskk> nice :D
[00:04] <Randomskk> where are you?
[00:05] <mattloaf1> new york
[00:05] <mattloaf1> see lat long above
[00:06] <mattloaf1> launch team of 7 campers at a summer camp
[00:07] <mattloaf1> first one we've done
[00:08] <Randomskk> cool
[00:08] <Randomskk> good luck!
[00:08] <Randomskk> have you run predictions?
[00:09] <mattloaf1> yes winds are very favorable (aka negligible)
[00:09] <Randomskk> nice
[00:09] <mattloaf1> no idea how accurate those things are
[00:09] <Randomskk> usually fairly good just before launch
[00:09] <mattloaf1> cool
[00:10] <mattloaf1> used http://habhub.org/predict/ and the university of wyoming one, both agree pretty closely
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[02:44] <KT5TK_QRL> More Pecan pics: http://kt5tk.tkrahn.com/download/PecanNut/photos/soldering/
[02:47] <Darkside> does it work?
[02:47] <Darkside> :P
[02:48] <Darkside> and where did you get the Si571s?
[02:49] <KT5TK_QRL> Need to solder the headers. Crosscheck with Ohmmeter was ok
[02:50] <KT5TK_QRL> I've used a Fox VCXO here, but I have a Si571 at home.
[02:51] <KT5TK_QRL> Mouser has 3 in stock: http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Silicon-Labs/SI57X-EVB/?qs=smyX9%2ftomJol0dd2Jg6g4LUS8SiSqIoT
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[02:52] <Darkside> wtf is with the price
[02:53] <Darkside> oh thats the eval board
[02:53] <KT5TK_QRL> I've bought mine for $70
[02:53] <Darkside> jeez
[02:53] <Darkside> i know i can get the Si570's for about $21
[02:54] <KT5TK_QRL> 571 has a analog Vc input for FM
[02:54] <Darkside> yeah
[02:54] <Darkside> but it costs an extra $50 for that?
[02:55] <KT5TK_QRL> Well the official price for the Si570 is also higher
[02:55] <KT5TK_QRL> Just some guys from the SDR community negotiated with Si
[02:56] <Darkside> ahh
[02:57] <KT5TK_QRL> I may see some of the Silicon Labs guys on the weekend in Austin at the Ham fest
[02:57] <KT5TK_QRL> If you're interested in a Si571 I can try to talk to them
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[03:28] <mattloaf1> thanks for your help everyone, launched 90 minutes ago and the balloon is on its way up
[03:28] <Dan-K2VOL> nice
[03:29] <Dan-K2VOL> link?
[03:30] <mattloaf1> lemme see here
[03:31] <mattloaf1> http://share.findmespot.com/shared/faces/viewspots.jsp?glId=0ROr0x8BZ2s7t8gd1VWUyBEKVhNgnBG8D
[03:31] <mattloaf1> it's really moving now!
[03:31] <mattloaf1> too bad spot doesn't have altitude
[03:31] <Darkside> oh, a spot tracker
[03:31] <mattloaf1> my second gps does but it's out of cell range now
[03:31] <mattloaf1> yeah i'm not a ham
[03:31] <Darkside> hopefully it doesn't land upside down
[03:31] <mattloaf1> fingers crossed
[03:32] <Darkside> you don't need to be a ham to use the ISM band stuff
[03:32] <mattloaf1> i'd like to investigate using that
[03:32] <Darkside> its what pretty much everyoen in here uses
[03:32] <Darkside> and a lot of people in here aren't hams
[03:32] <mattloaf1> how much equipment do you need? big investment?
[03:33] <Darkside> a few hundred $
[03:33] <mattloaf1> already sunk almost 1k into it
[03:33] <mattloaf1> might as well
[03:33] <mattloaf1> assuming i get it back
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[03:58] <KT5TK_QRL> Anyone knows how high the spot gps works?
[04:02] <nigelvh> I think I recall someone mentioning it stops at high altitude. So I'd guess something like the standard alt limit.
[04:03] <Darkside> 18km i think
[04:04] <nigelvh> I wonder if one could replace the GPS module in the spot and get higher altitude support.
[04:05] <nigelvh> Perhaps even with a helix antenna rather than the patch to get better signals at varying positions.
[04:08] <nigelvh> BTW KT5TK_QRL what are your thoughts on the 200MHz resonant inductor I found?
[04:47] <KT5TK> nigelvh: probably the best you can get with 1.2 uH. Note that the datasheet only mentions Q at 25 MHz, so this is what it was designed for. http://katalog.we-online.de/kataloge/eisos/media/pdf/744760312C.pdf
[04:49] <KT5TK> You may be lucky at 144 MHz, but possibly you'll need to make compromises and use a lower inductivity value.
[04:50] <KT5TK> at the cost of bandwidth
[05:08] <nigelvh> K, ill see if i can adjust to get something a bit better. Otherwise, it wont hurt to try.
[05:08] <nigelvh> evening all
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[05:48] <KT5TK> nigelvh Yes, it's definitely worth spending a few cents and try. You probably noticed that the higher the L, the sharper the edges of the filter. However it's difficult to get a high Q at the desired frequency and the self capacity pulls down the resonance frequency. Then you can use ferrite cores, but they also only work up to a certain frequency.
[05:51] <Upu> morning
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[06:19] <nosebleedkt> yo
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[06:55] <nosebleedkt> ok, this is the actual and predicted path from the predictor: https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/304889_499608426719873_28967712_n.jpg
[06:55] <nosebleedkt> the patterns are the same
[07:01] <costyn> nosebleedkt: did your balloon rise more slowly that the predictor predicted?
[07:01] <costyn> taking you further east?
[07:02] <nosebleedkt> according to predictor ascend rate was about 5.5m/s
[07:04] <nosebleedkt> according to my telemetry ascend rate was about the same
[07:05] <nosebleedkt> ascend rates vary from 4,5,6
[07:05] <nosebleedkt> so an average is 5
[07:16] <nosebleedkt> I think the balloons have a tedency to turn from the left
[07:16] <nosebleedkt> i make this assumption from my pictures
[07:16] <nosebleedkt> but i cannot explain the physics on that
[07:17] <nosebleedkt> maybe some physicist here can explain that to us
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[07:32] <eroomde> nosebleedkt: do you observe this over the first few hundred meters?
[07:33] <nosebleedkt> what? the ascent rate or the balloon turning?
[07:34] <eroomde> balloon turning
[07:35] <eroomde> oh hang on, do you mean it rotates/spins or do you mean that the path of the balloon turns from the left as it goes up?
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[07:38] <nosebleedkt> i mean rotation i think
[07:40] <eroomde> ah
[07:40] <eroomde> i dunno then
[07:40] <eroomde> coriolis force is the answer when you don;t know
[07:40] <eroomde> if darkside's payloads rotate the other way then we have 2 data points and then have proved it beyond all reasonable doubt
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[07:53] <SamSilver> I use to fly hot air balloons and we used the coriolis effect to steer
[07:55] <costyn> eroomde: :)
[07:55] <eroomde> indeed, if nosebleed had meant there was turning away from the left in the actual path of the balloon, over the first few hundred m, then that can be explained legitimately by coriolis, as hot air balloon pilots know
[07:55] <costyn> I was thinking that too, but thought the effect on such a small object would be neglible.
[07:56] <costyn> but if it affects hot air balloons...
[07:56] <eroomde> if affects the path hot air balloons take, rather than their rotation on their own axis, if u see what i mean
[07:57] <costyn> yes
[07:57] <eroomde> as wind doesn't go from high pressure to low in a straight line
[07:57] <costyn> but it shouldn't affect the spin
[07:57] <eroomde> but instead due to coriolis does a sort of s shape from high to low
[07:58] <eroomde> except as you get nearer the ground that is disrupted by geography, and the air does go in a stright line from high to low
[07:58] <costyn> yea I remember from some meteo lessons I once had
[07:58] <eroomde> correct me if i'm wrong on this SamSilver
[07:58] <eroomde> so you, by dropping up or down you can influence your path
[07:59] <SamSilver> when flying in the UK "right with height" was the saying to remember
[07:59] <SamSilver> you on the money eroomde
[07:59] <costyn> SamSilver: what's the phrase in ZA?
[07:59] <costyn> SA
[08:00] <SamSilver> turn right into parking
[08:01] <SamSilver> if his balloon rose slower than prediction then it was cause his flight path to be displaced to the left of track
[08:01] <SamSilver> which it looks like it did
[08:01] <costyn> that was my thought too
[08:02] <SamSilver> at work so AFK
[08:04] <eroomde> i'm not sure how much of an effect this has on balloons
[08:04] <SamSilver> http://share.findmespot.com/shared/faces/viewspots.jsp?glId=0ROr0x8BZ2s7t8gd1VWUyBEKVhNgnBG8D
[08:04] <eroomde> i.e once youre above a certain altitude you're well out of the direction gradient caused by geography vs coriolis
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[08:27] <SamSilver> the above link was for mattloaf1 payload
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[08:54] <SamSilver> morning dave
[08:56] <daveake> morning dave
[08:57] <SamSilver> how goes it with HABerizing the 4X4
[08:57] <daveake> Ah, just reading about that ...
[08:57] <fsphil> how many daves are going to the conference? should we have a quota?
[08:57] <daveake> ... there's a DIN slot under the radio and the Yeasu can go in there
[08:58] <SamSilver> if you gonna start that fsphil then the pizza for lunch will be ordered with extra oinions
[08:58] <daveake> :D
[08:58] <fsphil> oi!
[08:59] <number10> i'm not going so thats dave--
[09:00] <SamSilver> daveake: then will te radio sound system be the audio for the 817
[09:00] <daveake> :(
[09:00] <daveake> brb phone
[09:01] <fsphil> oooh cool, rtty stereo
[09:01] <SamSilver> pretty remote location to fetch a payload from > http://share.findmespot.com/shared/faces/viewspots.jsp?glId=0ROr0x8BZ2s7t8gd1VWUyBEKVhNgnBG8D
[09:03] <SamSilver> I mean rugged not sooo remote
[09:03] <jsowman> optiboot: #define LUDICROUS_SPEED
[09:03] <jsowman> excellent
[09:03] <jsowman> :D
[09:04] <Darkside> LUDICROUS SPEED - GO!
[09:04] <Darkside> my brraaaaaais are going into my feeeeet
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[09:19] <gonzo_> ohhhhh nasty
[09:19] <daveake> moar tape
[09:20] <gonzo_> this could be a job for bailer twine
[09:20] <LazyLeopard> Heh. They need Gaffer Tape, not Duck Tape!
[09:22] <gonzo_> daveake, have you gone for the second batt/split charge yet in the 4wd?
[09:28] <UpuWork> doubt that will be needed
[09:31] <daveake> gonzo_ Not yes, but the batteries/box/switches are here waiting for me to get round to it
[09:31] <daveake> As for the stereo, there's a half-reasonable radio/CD in there (not original fit) with aux in on the front panel. Just below there's a second DIN slot currently has a cubby hole with a lid tastefully decorated in fake wook
[09:32] <daveake> wood
[09:32] <daveake> Yeah, the battery is huge
[09:32] <daveake> Probably I'll put the battery in the pUg and do a new setup here
[09:32] <UpuWork> decorated in fake Wookie ?
[09:32] <daveake> Anyway, cubby hole can come out and a universal DIN bracket will go in with the Yaesu
[09:33] <UpuWork> its a diesel isn't it ?
[09:33] <daveake> I wish I could do a wookie noise on IRC :)
[09:33] <daveake> Oh here you go http://soundbible.com/484-Chewbacca-Wookie-Noise.html:)
[09:34] <daveake> Nah V6 3L petrol
[09:34] <daveake> Meanwhile I put a phone bracket on the dash for the phone, and a second on the left of the dash for the scanner
[09:35] <daveake> Nice to have more space for stuff :)
[09:36] <costyn> dedicated HAB chase vehicle. must be the final stage of HAB
[09:37] <daveake> Nah, that's stage 5
[09:37] <daveake> Stage 6 is getting a chase boat
[09:38] <daveake> And Upu nearly defined a new stage - 7 - yesterday: Getting a bigger house so the humungous aerial doesn't look so out of place :D
[09:38] <costyn> hehehehe
[09:39] <SamSilver> a helicopter with a dangling chainsaw would be handy
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[09:43] <craag> I think moving to a house on top of a hill could be in there somewhere. It's number 1 on my list of priorities for a place next year..
[09:44] <craag> If it has 4 walls that'd be great, but I could do without just for some extra HAAT.
[09:45] <daveake> Buy a hill and set up a remote station :)
[09:46] <gonzo_> woodland, cresting a hill with a river running around the perimeter. Ahhh, my pipe dream
[09:46] <craag> Yes, I know someone who's done that. He's got a shed on a hill with a duplex 70cm control link to his house. Gets Germany on 10GHz no problem!
[09:47] <craag> That would be good, there's a lack of big hills around here though.
[09:47] <gonzo_> finding a hill with the river that's more of a problem
[09:47] <costyn> craag: I know that feeling (live in NL)
[09:48] <gonzo_> ah water not a prob there then. Though getting iot fliowing is good
[09:51] <craag> costyn: Good point! It's not that it's completely flat around here, just that ground rises to the north, and the IoW is in the way to the south.
[09:51] <craag> Plus the shipyards makes the VHF band just awful.
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[10:01] <gonzo_> big spark gap tx's!
[10:09] <kokey> I remember as a kid trying to make a radio transmitter with sparks
[10:09] <kokey> I thought maybe if I had two wires close to each other with a big light surface attached to the one, that it would control the rate of the sparks when I spoke against it
[10:13] <kokey> should send telemetry, by triggering pre-charged arrays of capacitors
[10:16] <kokey> just need to make sure you earth it well
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[10:29] <fsphil> biting into a kitkat with a bit of the foil still on, fail
[10:30] <kokey> ouch
[10:31] <kokey> hmmm, I wonder if these new white fillings I've got have the same effect as the old fillings with foil
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[10:32] <kokey> from some quick googling it doesn't seem to be made of metal, yay
[10:33] <fsphil> reacts with other metals?
[10:38] <kokey> it's something I've never looked up before, but it seems like metal fillings with aluminium pressed hard against it forms a battery that stimulates your nerve endings
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[10:56] <nosebleedkt> well, look at this
[10:56] <nosebleedkt> https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/242739_499668113380571_826189429_o.jpg
[10:56] <nosebleedkt> can someone explain to me why I had so much difference?
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[10:57] <LazyLeopard> What are the two paths?
[10:58] <nosebleedkt> yellow = predicted
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[10:58] <nosebleedkt> red = actual
[10:59] <fsphil> when did you do the prediction?
[10:59] <fsphil> predictions will never be perfect
[10:59] <nosebleedkt> same day
[10:59] <daveake> slower ascent rate? launched at different time to prediction?
[10:59] <fsphil> well, not never, but not often
[10:59] <UpuWork> predictions only use data taken every 6 hours
[10:59] <UpuWork> so there will be a certain element of unknown
[10:59] <UpuWork> it got the path spot on
[10:59] <fsphil> looks like the winds where just a bit stronger than expected
[10:59] <UpuWork> whats the actual difference between the points ?
[11:00] <UpuWork> in kms ?
[11:00] <daveake> which is why I'm thinking ascent rate, though I can't tell with that 3D if that's the case
[11:00] <nosebleedkt> i can send you both kml files if you like
[11:01] <LazyLeopard> Looks like your ascent rate was just slightly lower than you used for the prediction, and that kept the balloon in the east-bound fast-moving air for longer. Hard to tell with the rest, but the paths are broadly similar.
[11:01] <nosebleedkt> yeah, pattern is the same
[11:01] <daveake> ^^ that's what I said :). So I agree :p
[11:02] <fsphil> my second one did the same
[11:03] <nosebleedkt> well, what can be the cause?
[11:03] <LazyLeopard> Given the way live predictions on the tracker can jump about, even fairlly small differences between predicted and actual can at times make a big difference.
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[11:05] <nosebleedkt> I run the predictor 30minutes before launch
[11:05] <fsphil> it is just a prediction remember
[11:05] <nosebleedkt> yeah
[11:05] <fsphil> it can't know what the winds will be like at the time
[11:05] <nosebleedkt> I wonder how we could make it more precice
[11:05] <nosebleedkt> precise
[11:05] <nosebleedkt> yes ok
[11:05] <nosebleedkt> accepted
[11:06] <nosebleedkt> but
[11:06] <jsowman> it is too precise
[11:06] <nosebleedkt> what about the altitude difference?
[11:06] <jsowman> accuracy is what you want
[11:06] <fsphil> altitude difference?
[11:07] <nosebleedkt> yes
[11:07] <kokey> yeah but don't forget it's inaccuracy doesn't mean they can't predict temperatures 100 years into the future if it's caused by industry
[11:07] <fsphil> burst altitude? that's impossible to predict
[11:07] <nosebleedkt> predictor said 36km and it went up to nearly 39km
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[11:08] <fsphil> it said 36km because that's what you told it
[11:08] <daveake> My last one the calc said 29km actual was 35.5km
[11:08] <nosebleedkt> lol
[11:08] <fsphil> aah the burst calculator
[11:08] <nosebleedkt> yes
[11:08] <daveake> Balloons are very variable
[11:08] <nosebleedkt> china hywee
[11:08] <fsphil> think of it as an educated guess
[11:08] <nosebleedkt> balloons
[11:09] <fsphil> 1600g balloons have burst much lower and much higher than expected
[11:09] <fsphil> by many km
[11:09] <daveake> Chinese balloons need to be dope tested
[11:09] <fsphil> hah
[11:09] <nosebleedkt> lol
[11:11] <LazyLeopard> ....and sometimes they don't play to the spirit of the rules.
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[11:16] <nosebleedkt> so whats the general answer to my problem now?
[11:16] <nosebleedkt> bad ascent rate?
[11:17] <daveake> Well why don't you compare the rates and see? If the actual one is slower, then yes that's probably the reason
[11:17] <nosebleedkt> ascent rates vary all the time
[11:17] <daveake> The fact it got so high does suggest it went up slower
[11:17] <daveake> Take an average over the first 10km
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[11:18] <daveake> Just take the altitude/time at 500m say and 10km then calcualate ut
[11:25] <nosebleedkt> ok
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[11:39] <nosebleedkt> http://pastebin.com/XYZd5D6K
[11:39] <nosebleedkt> this is the datastream
[11:39] <nosebleedkt> altitude,ascent rate, barometer
[11:42] <nosebleedkt> sory the last field is time
[11:42] <nosebleedkt> lol
[11:43] <daveake> No, do what I said. Take 2 readings one near the ground and one at 10km. Calculate the overall ascent rate from those.
[11:44] <nosebleedkt> at 513m I have 5m/s
[11:44] <nosebleedkt> at 10513m I have 3m/s
[11:44] <daveake> No. You need altitude and time at 2 points
[11:44] <daveake> Then *calculate* the *average* ascent rate
[11:44] <nosebleedkt> 4?
[11:44] <daveake> So it's (altitude2 - altitude1) / (time2 - time1)
[11:45] <costyn> nosebleedkt: what time did you release? what time was it at 35km?
[11:45] <costyn> nosebleedkt: then calculate what dave said
[11:45] <nosebleedkt> 38884m , 1101 UTC
[11:45] <daveake> Best to ignore the first and last bits though
[11:45] <costyn> true
[11:46] <nosebleedkt> 513mm, 0855 UTC
[11:46] <daveake> If it floated or slowed down that will bias the results
[11:46] <daveake> Also the initial rate can be low, especially for a floppy balloon (large balloon / small payload)
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[11:52] <fsphil> yay, I have helium for the pico
[11:55] <nosebleedkt> well
[11:55] <nosebleedkt> average
[11:55] <nosebleedkt> ascent rate
[11:55] <nosebleedkt> is 4.59m/s
[11:55] <daveake> and for prediction was?
[11:55] <nosebleedkt> while predictor had 5.39m/s
[11:56] <daveake> So 15% slower
[11:56] <daveake> Did that initial part of the path go 15% further than expected?
[11:56] <nosebleedkt> sorry i don't understand you
[11:57] <daveake> See you plot https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/242739_499668113380571_826189429_o.jpg
[11:58] <daveake> The initial part went further east than expected
[11:58] <daveake> Mostly because the balloon spent more time in the lower winds
[11:58] <daveake> Where it turned north-west will be at about the same altitude in both plits
[11:58] <daveake> plots
[11:59] <daveake> So the slower the ascent rate, the longer it spends in the east-bound wind, and the further east it goes
[11:59] <nosebleedkt> yes
[11:59] <nosebleedkt> understod
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[11:59] <daveake> So 15% slower (which is what you have) means roughly 15% longer going east
[11:59] <daveake> Looks a bit more than that to me, but anyway, that pretty much explains the difference
[11:59] <costyn> nosebleedkt: sounds like you have your answer:)
[12:00] <nosebleedkt> yes
[12:00] <daveake> So either you used less gas than planned
[12:00] <daveake> or it was heavier
[12:00] <daveake> or both
[12:00] <nosebleedkt> i think i used less
[12:00] <daveake> so do I :)
[12:00] <nosebleedkt> because its the only thing i cant count
[12:00] <costyn> nosebleedkt: you did measure neck-lift though right?
[12:01] <nosebleedkt> yes
[12:01] <costyn> well then you know how much helium you've got in your balloon
[12:01] <nosebleedkt> calculator gave me neck lift of 2744g
[12:01] <nosebleedkt> i had 2 bottles of water weighting 2744
[12:02] <nosebleedkt> and when the balloon was balanced
[12:02] <nosebleedkt> we stopped
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[12:02] <nosebleedkt> but you know here and there some helium was lost
[12:02] <nosebleedkt> or overfilled
[12:02] <nosebleedkt> small amounts of course
[12:03] <daveake> Did you include everything in the weight? Parachute?
[12:03] <Gadget-Work> Afternoon all
[12:03] <daveake> You were out by 15% so there's an error somewhere
[12:03] <daveake> Not that a parachute will be 15% :D
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[12:07] <nosebleedkt> yes
[12:07] <nosebleedkt> all weight
[12:07] <nosebleedkt> parachute+ropes+payload
[12:07] <nosebleedkt> 1.347g
[12:14] <daveake> balloon size?
[12:15] <nosebleedkt> 1600g
[12:15] <daveake> All adds up ok
[12:16] <nosebleedkt> i know
[12:17] <nosebleedkt> i run the same config in the calculator
[12:17] <nosebleedkt> there is one detail i can tell you
[12:17] <nosebleedkt> first look this pic
[12:17] <nosebleedkt> https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/311578_493994090614640_846801155_n.jpg
[12:17] <nosebleedkt> here is when we filled it and it was balancing
[12:18] <nosebleedkt> but it was balancing for about 4-5 sec
[12:18] <nosebleedkt> then it was starting to go up
[12:18] <nosebleedkt> and we stopped there
[12:18] <nosebleedkt> because we believe it was going up because we has some crazy air locally
[12:19] <nosebleedkt> like the wind was pushing it up
[12:19] <daveake> I was about to say that any wind makes it very difficult to get it right
[12:19] <daveake> The wind lifts the balloon so you actually have less neck lift than you think
[12:20] <daveake> The balloon can act as a sail, or the wind can deflect up near buildings/trees
[12:20] <nosebleedkt> so i had to add more helium /
[12:20] <daveake> "If in doubt; add more" :)
[12:23] <nosebleedkt> so the source of the problem is the not very good neck lift testing
[12:24] <eroomde> yes
[12:24] <eroomde> there are ways around this
[12:24] <eroomde> cusf have a mass flow meter now that you can tell to put a certain number of cubic meters of helium into the balloon then have it shut off automatically once it's done
[12:29] <nosebleedkt> i think i will buy the other thing
[12:29] <nosebleedkt> we call it manometro
[12:29] <nosebleedkt> it shows the pointer of how much you filled in
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[12:39] <WillDuckworth> anyone any thoughts on the best igniters to use at high altitude? e.g. estes standard. Can't remember what rjharrison uses....
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[12:40] <eroomde> estes are shit
[12:40] <eroomde> for all x
[12:40] <eroomde> what's the application?
[12:46] <WillDuckworth> rockoon as a primary goal
[12:46] <WillDuckworth> and possible pyro cutodown
[12:47] <eroomde> so there big difference between those two is that the match in a rockoon app is likely to be at ambient pressure
[12:47] <Upu> Rob uses Estes
[12:47] <eroomde> whereas for pyro cutdowns it's sealed up
[12:47] <eroomde> regardless, don't use estes
[12:48] <eroomde> they're very poorly made, the elements are prone to thermally breaking when you pass a current through before they've had a chance to get the pyrogenic mixture ignited
[12:48] <Upu> http://www.flickr.com/photos/30721501@N05/sets/72157619368022480/
[12:48] <WillDuckworth> yep - so for engine ignition extra pyrogen will be needed whatever the igniter chosen
[12:48] <eroomde> rocketry peeps use daveyfires mostly
[12:48] <eroomde> well, extra pyrogen, but that still produces hot gasses
[12:49] <Upu> Daveybickford SA2001 ?
[12:49] <eroomde> and hot gasses are not so good in vacuum like conditions because they just dissipate so quickly
[12:49] <Upu> Davey Bickford Premier Igniters SA2001 (E matches)
[12:49] <eroomde> that looks like the one
[12:50] <eroomde> you can get different ones, ones that 'pop' and ones that a more burney
[12:50] <WillDuckworth> cheers guys
[12:50] <WillDuckworth> thermite for you ed?
[12:50] <eroomde> anyway, re: hot gasses dissipating, it's a big problem in igniting rockets at high altitudes
[12:50] <eroomde> so yeah, something liquid phase like thermite is good
[12:50] <eroomde> i make a little mix
[12:50] <eroomde> you can dissolve an estes motor in water (i use water + 20% IPA)
[12:51] <eroomde> that gives you a sort of charcoal-like paste
[12:51] <eroomde> then add in iron oxide powder and aluminium powder
[12:51] <eroomde> and mix it all up
[12:51] <WillDuckworth> cool beans
[12:51] <gonzo_> for the small rockets, when we had run out of fuses, a pile of black powder stuffed up the 'ole and a trail was good
[12:51] <eroomde> then take your igniter like a daveyfire and drop it into this mix
[12:51] <eroomde> and let the mix dry
[12:51] <eroomde> then drop it in again, reapeating like coats of paint maybe 3 or 4 times
[12:52] <gonzo_> but had to watch you didn't get too myuch in the motor body, or they just exploded
[12:52] <eroomde> that dumps a lot more thermal energy into the chamber of the rocket engine. especilly important for bigger engines like M and N class. they take some igniting anyway, even on the ground
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[12:53] <gonzo_> I did try making a black powder paste, for reloading motors, but was never suvccessful
[12:54] <eroomde> if u want to blow open the bic-tube type cutdowns, infact the daveyfires on their own are enough to blow it apart, usually
[12:54] <UpuWork> the legality of them is dubious try with nichrome first
[12:55] <UpuWork> I have a few made up cut downs at home, not uses any though
[12:55] <UpuWork> you can put match heads in
[12:55] <eroomde> it's probably more illegal than dubious :)
[12:56] <UpuWork> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HF5FO2ECbfU
[12:56] <WillDuckworth> :D
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[12:57] <UpuWork> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89YACKHpUIQ <- Thats a sealed match stick head one
[12:58] <eroomde> historically i've leaned away form nichrome, just because i've thought it more liable fail. if you use it, make sure the bit of line the nichrome is around is restrained during the flight
[12:58] <UpuWork> thought tbh gun powder ftw : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mthD2gixVjQ
[12:58] <eroomde> as if it has to come with 2 hours of flexing about, it's very likely you'll get afatique failure
[12:59] <eroomde> standard video to demo how choppit it can be up there: http://vimeo.com/1598522
[12:59] <eroomde> choppy it*
[13:00] <eroomde> so you can see that if you just were to run a loop of nichrome out of a terminal block, round the wire, and back to a terminal block, you're asking for trouble
[13:02] <UpuWork> yeah thats something I need to look out how to hold the nicrhome in place but ensure its not going to get damaged
[13:02] <fsphil> Dan did a coil of nichrome around the nylon cord
[13:03] <UpuWork> something that mechanically seperates the cord from the nichrome
[13:03] <fsphil> the nylon cord could move freely through the coil
[13:03] <daveake> I did a coil around the cord, with high-temperature sleeving around that
[13:04] <daveake> It survived the flight then the cutdown triggered (on a timeout) in the back of the car after :)
[13:07] <WillDuckworth> any good webstores for those davey igniters? my google fu is lacking today
[13:07] <gonzo_> A small gunpowder charge would probablt cut a cord. Just atip of a teaspoon amount if gaffa
[13:08] <gonzo_> something like shotgun powder, as it ignites far easier than black
[13:12] <fsphil> are the explosive cut-downs easy enough to make?
[13:12] <fsphil> or more importantly, safe to make?
[13:14] <gonzo_> a bit of powser with an igniter wire, in a little gaffa patch, would just go with a flare like a couple of matches
[13:14] <nick_> Safe to make depends more on the maker than the explosive, I think.
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[13:14] <gonzo_> more of a pft, than explosive
[13:15] <fsphil> I had a small banger go off in my hand when I was younger, no harm but it's made me wary of these things
[13:16] <fsphil> I'll probably stick with nichrome
[13:16] <gonzo_> fireworks use black powder. It goes with a pop when confined and is more difficult to set off with a wire
[13:18] <eroomde> WillDuckworth: the rocketry shops
[13:18] <eroomde> like rocketsandthings
[13:18] <gonzo_> shotgun/pistol powder needs to ignioted under pressure (like in a gun) to get it to burn fast enough to be an issue. So it would just burn with a slow fizz
[13:19] <gonzo_> I should make a cutdown and post a video of it.
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[13:19] <WillDuckworth> yeah - they've got the aerotech copperheads
[13:21] <eroomde> tried ebay?
[13:23] <eroomde> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbO7fXBad3o&feature=related
[13:23] <eroomde> that's some acceleration
[13:24] <WillDuckworth> not all that good on ebay unfortunately - found some on http://www.tvandfilmsupplies.co.uk
[13:25] <eroomde> regardless of whichever igniter you end up with, put some ballast in series with it
[13:25] <eroomde> eg a highish power 1 ouhm resistor
[13:25] <eroomde> that will give a degree of current limiting which should help prevent the hot wire from shock-breaking
[13:26] <WillDuckworth> oh right - series? so it heats for long enough berfore ignition yeah?
[13:27] <eroomde> yes
[13:27] <WillDuckworth> hope you're noting all this chuff for your talk ;)
[13:28] <eroomde> they don't really need more than an amp to set them off, so using a fet to just connect them from +v to GND is a bit abusive
[13:28] <eroomde> at 5V that's almost 5A
[13:28] <eroomde> that much current all of a sudden can cause it to blow, much like old lightbulbs do
[13:28] <WillDuckworth> got the capacitor combo from the wiki going nicely
[13:29] <eroomde> or rather, with a 1 ohm reistor than it cannot be more than 5A all of a sudden
[13:29] <eroomde> but without it it could be much much higher
[13:29] <eroomde> i wasn't going to mention this in a talk
[13:29] <eroomde> if you want to get to the level of pyro igniter circuits on a talk covering rocketry, it would probably take 5 days to get through everything :)
[13:30] <WillDuckworth> true
[13:30] <eroomde> i was gonna talk more about actively guiding rockets
[13:30] <eroomde> and generally how to get higher than 150,000ft
[13:31] <eroomde> we're UKHAS rather than UKHABS afterall :)
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[13:32] <WillDuckworth> i like the sound of that :)
[13:33] <eroomde> have u seen the vid of out most recent test fire?
[13:33] <WillDuckworth> don't think so - linky?
[13:34] <WillDuckworth> was that the gimbled one?
[13:34] <eroomde> yep
[13:34] <eroomde> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkGlKYRISFM
[13:36] <WillDuckworth> ah - yes, pi-prop special :) what nozzle material is it? graphite?
[13:37] <eroomde> yes
[13:38] <eroomde> the chamber liner is phenolic
[13:39] <WillDuckworth> does that survive - or new each time?
[13:42] <eroomde> get about 90s out of it
[13:42] <eroomde> but it is just a stop-gap for testing
[13:42] <eroomde> a regeneratively cooled one is in the works
[13:43] <eroomde> with a more efficient injector too (measured in terms of how well it mixes the fuel and oxidisers) which means the chamber can be shorter and lighter
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[13:43] <eroomde> the new kind of injector is called a pintle injector, if you're interested
[13:43] <WillDuckworth> always ed, always
[13:44] <eroomde> i'm pleased to hear it
[13:45] <eroomde> so yes, it works by sending a thin-walled cylinder of one of the propellants down a tube
[13:45] <eroomde> and then sends a spray of the other injector out sideways (like putting your finger infront of a hose) so you get a flat sheet being sprayed out
[13:46] <eroomde> then it collides those two things so that you end up with a cone of mixed oxidier and fuel
[13:47] <eroomde> because that mixing is better, it means the fuel has burned completely in a shorter amount of time, which means the chamber can be shorter
[13:47] <eroomde> but the amount of energy being produced is the same, but the chamber is sammler, meaning a higher heat flux into the chamber walls
[13:47] <eroomde> so something more sophisticated that a phenolic liner starts to make sense
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[13:50] <upix> hello
[13:50] <nosebleedkt> if you have facebook, see this
[13:50] <nosebleedkt> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=3541900671020&set=vb.259791880701530&type=2&theater
[13:50] <nosebleedkt> its the video with the neck lift
[13:50] <nosebleedkt> it shows a balance of some seconds
[13:50] <nosebleedkt> and then a small lift up
[13:51] <Darkside> well i guess thats one way to do it..
[13:51] <Darkside> we just use a fishing scale...
[13:52] <eroomde> you don't have weather in australia though do you
[13:53] <Darkside> sure we do
[13:53] <Darkside> we just fill in a garage
[13:53] <Darkside> we've done our fair share of <45 degree launches
[13:54] <eroomde> easier 45 degrees than upside down tho
[13:54] <Darkside> upside down?
[13:55] <upix> any ideas why ublox gives variable altitude (might differ by 20 meters) though I'm stationary and airborne mode is not enabled yet
[13:55] <upix> or is this normal deviation
[13:55] <Darkside> upix: L1 gps altitude is pretty bad
[13:56] <upix> what is L1
[13:56] <Darkside> single frequency gps
[13:56] <upix> it's ublox max6
[13:56] <Darkside> as opposed to dual frequency GPS, which is far more accurare
[13:56] <eroomde> upix: the gps civilians like us can use
[13:56] <Darkside> yes, that uses L1
[13:56] <Darkside> eroomde: hey, you can use L2 if you want
[13:56] <Darkside> just costs $$
[13:57] <eroomde> the gps civilians like us can use who aren't surveyors
[13:57] <Darkside> about 4000 pounds for a dual-freq gps small enough to use on a balloon payload
[13:57] <Darkside> wait no, 3000 pounds
[13:57] <upix> so this deviation is expected?
[13:57] <Darkside> upix: yeah
[13:57] <upix> k thanks
[13:57] <Darkside> eroomde: we used a Novatel OEMV-1DF on the cubesat payload i was working on last year
[13:58] <Darkside> they still want to fly one on a balloon
[13:58] <eroomde> it's worse than latitude and longitude in accuracy usually
[13:58] <Darkside> i've been having on and off conversations with one of the guys at bath uni about making up a payload for one
[13:58] <eroomde> because to get good altitude you'd want sats above and below you
[13:58] <eroomde> but earth is in the way
[13:58] <costyn> cool "reliable centimetre-level positioning"
[13:58] <eroomde> so you're stuck with only having measurements from sats coming from one side of you
[13:59] <Darkside> but we'd probably fly it here so we can try and run a very high speed downlink to get data just in case something goes wrong
[13:59] <eroomde> Darkside: that gps works in orbit?
[13:59] <Darkside> like, would probably fly a 900mhz XTEND module
[13:59] <Darkside> eroomde: with the right firmware
[13:59] <Darkside> and a wider filter
[13:59] <Darkside> we had 2 units, one was "space rated" one wasn't
[14:00] <Darkside> the only difference was firmware and a little texta mark on the board
[14:00] <eroomde> interesting
[14:00] <Darkside> thats what i was using the gps simulator for, to make sure it would actually work under space conditions. the non space-rated one gave a "firmware restriction" error message as soon as it went above 50km
[14:00] <kristianpaul> dual-freq, you mean glonass too?
[14:01] <Darkside> the other one worked fine
[14:01] <Darkside> kristianpaul: no, i mean L1+L2 GPS
[14:01] <kristianpaul> ah
[14:01] <Darkside> i haven't looked at GPS+GLONASS units. apparently the ublox 6's can do that now?
[14:02] <Darkside> i've seen augmentation sats show up on my NEO-6T module, haven't spotted any glonass yet though
[14:02] <UpuWork> ublox 7's
[14:02] <Darkside> ahh
[14:02] <UpuWork> due out "soon" (TM)
[14:02] <Darkside> heh
[14:02] <Darkside> has there been any releases about them?
[14:03] <UpuWork> http://www.u-blox.com/en/gps-chips/stand-alone-gps-chips/ubx-g7020-ctktka.html
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[14:03] <eroomde> i'm going to try and detect the galileo signal soon
[14:03] <UpuWork> should be going in the positioning modules soon
[14:03] <UpuWork> MAX-7
[14:04] <costyn> cool stuff :)
[14:04] <eroomde> if i can time it right
[14:04] <Darkside> eroomde: theres a galileo sat up?
[14:04] <costyn> Darkside: according to this story http://www.esa.int/esaNA/galileo.html
[14:04] <eroomde> yes
[14:04] <eroomde> 2 i think
[14:05] <eroomde> they're prototypes
[14:05] <eroomde> 'orbital test vehicle' or something
[14:05] <Darkside> interesting
[14:05] <eroomde> but they smell like galileo as far as a receiver is concerned
[14:05] <Darkside> heh
[14:06] <eroomde> there's a lot of funding floating around europe atm for projects which use galileo to do something
[14:06] <eroomde> to try and justify the expenditure
[14:06] <eroomde> and i think I can usefully do stuff with galileo + gps anyway
[14:06] <eroomde> so 2+2 = some money hopefully
[14:08] <eroomde> also trying to engineer flying an L1 sampler and inertial measurement unit or something doing 50G for at least a second or so
[14:08] <Darkside> cool
[14:08] <Darkside> apparently theres some more funding floating around for me to continue on somethign i was working on ages back
[14:08] <eroomde> to test improved tracking from tightly coupling gps and ins
[14:09] <Darkside> an add-on unit for some dual-freq TEC measurement units the uni of bath use, that lets it trickle data back over a HF channel
[14:09] <Darkside> and accept commands over the same HF channel, for configuration updates or whatnot
[14:10] <eroomde> what's TEC sorry?
[14:10] <Darkside> total electron content
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[14:10] <Darkside> the total electron 'number' in a path between a receiver and a gps sat
[14:10] <eroomde> what do you measure with that?
[14:10] <Darkside> a dual frequency gps unit
[14:10] <eroomde> ah cool
[14:11] <Darkside> the directly measured values are usually horifficaly inaccurate, so you use with tomography techniques to build up a model
[14:12] <WillDuckworth> hey Darkside - how did you 'simulate' the gps? was it with one of those boxes which actually transmit signals?
[14:12] <Darkside> yes
[14:12] <Darkside> a CAST simulator box
[14:12] <Darkside> forget the model number
[14:12] <WillDuckworth> was that at a uni then?
[14:12] <Darkside> http://www.castnav.com/products/cast_1000.html
[14:12] <Darkside> ahh thats the one i used
[14:13] <Darkside> its on 'loan' to the uni of bath
[14:13] <Darkside> or it was when i was there
[14:13] <WillDuckworth> looks expensive
[14:13] <Darkside> yeah
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[14:13] <Darkside> 50000 pounds or something?
[14:13] <Darkside> was fun though
[14:14] <Darkside> i programmed in a trajectory and made my mininut board think it was at 49999m altitude
[14:14] <Darkside> also i can confirm the ublox 5's do in fact drop out at 50km altitude
[14:14] <UpuWork> optimistic
[14:14] <WillDuckworth> all firmware i guess
[14:14] <UpuWork> do they loose all positional information or just the altitude ?
[14:14] <Darkside> i should make a more realistic flight path :P
[14:14] <Darkside> UpuWork: it just lost lock
[14:15] <eroomde> yes there is definitely a market for a cheaper gps simulator
[14:15] <UpuWork> ok
[14:15] <eroomde> sell 100 times as many for £10k
[14:16] <eroomde> put it in a brushed aluminium case, with a throbbing blue LED one the front and an sma on the back
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[14:16] <eroomde> call it the iPos
[14:16] <eroomde> i might have just given away my business plan
[14:16] <UpuWork> Or the iWTFAMi
[14:16] <eroomde> catchy
[14:16] <UpuWork> ta
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[14:43] <SpeedEvil> Local GPS + laser ranger + gyro + magnetometer. Sight the vehicle you want to mislead, and then overpower the GPS signal it will see, and have a little joystick on the front to manipulate its position.
[14:44] <SpeedEvil> For extra points, automatically optically track, and add local accellerations into the increasingly misleading position.
[14:44] <eroomde> steal dem uavs
[14:45] <eroomde> i did think about putting a local gps transmitter onto a building at the side of the field we want to test in
[14:45] <eroomde> which would take one of the reserved prns
[14:45] <eroomde> 30 or something
[14:45] <eroomde> and provide a v high accuracy local reference
[14:46] <SpeedEvil> I wonder how many systems will think about faulting on too good a GPS signal.
[14:47] <MrScienceMan> arent local GPSs restricted or smth?
[14:47] <eroomde> just don;t make it too good
[14:47] <SpeedEvil> MrScienceMan: yes.
[14:47] <eroomde> has to be a similar snr anyway for the agc to work
[14:48] <eroomde> MrScienceMan: yes this would not be the whitest of things to try
[14:49] <SpeedEvil> I do wonder if any GPSs on the market will generate a position at the moon.
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[14:50] <SpeedEvil> Back of the envelope calculations seem to indicate that with just a fairly modest (1.2m dish) antenna, and no other changes, you can get a position.
[14:50] <SpeedEvil> If the engine doesn't throw it out as barking mad.
[14:52] <nigelvh> Wouldn't the position error be rather large considering the distance from the earth to the moon relative to the distance to the ground?
[14:52] <SpeedEvil> It's not _quite_ that bad.
[14:53] <SpeedEvil> As you get a few times higher than the radius of the earth as the apparant diameter of the GPS constellation.
[14:53] <SpeedEvil> But yes, DOP is murderous.
[14:53] <SpeedEvil> OTOH - no iono problems.
[14:54] <SpeedEvil> you're picking up overspill as the satellites are rising from behind earth.
[14:54] <nigelvh> Also, I doubt any consumer module would deal well with that. You'd certainly have to do something custom/military.
[14:54] <eroomde> several knowledgeable people have told me tat the sats have transmitters facing outwards too
[14:54] <eroomde> for black stuff in geo
[14:54] <SpeedEvil> Sounds plausible.
[14:55] <SpeedEvil> Though it would not surprise me if those did not broadcast L1/L2
[14:55] <eroomde> no indeed
[14:55] <nigelvh> Yeah
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[14:59] <eroomde> it's suddenly got very dark and blowey here
[14:59] <gonzo_> amsat have flown COTS gps rx's on sats as an experiment
[15:00] <gonzo_> though have a vauge mem that they were custom SW
[15:00] <WillDuckworth> did they work ok?
[15:01] <SpeedEvil> Do GPSs that support RTK output typically carry on providing it when they stop providing position?
[15:01] <gonzo_> thibnk they did
[15:02] <gonzo_> (reply was to, <WillDuckworth> did they work ok?)
[15:05] <eroomde> i think you can be almost certain they'd be custom software
[15:05] <eroomde> gps receivers, in order to calculate a solution, have to make an assumption abour your dynamics
[15:06] <eroomde> that's why the ublox has different modes that let you go to different accelerations and so on (basically they tweak the internal dynamic model used by the kalman filter to estimate your position)
[15:06] <eroomde> so something that things you're standing still on the ground is not going to want to believe you're doing constant freefall at 25,000mph
[15:07] <eroomde> thinks you're meant to be*
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[15:10] <eroomde> likewise the tracking algorithms might need tweaking for the larger doppler range and the much shorter time you'd see any given sat
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[15:15] <WillDuckworth> so what gps unit should someone use if building an amateur satellite/ardusat/cubesat type jobby?
[15:16] <UpuWork> http://www.clyde-space.com/cubesat_shop
[15:17] <WillDuckworth> yeah but no but
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[15:17] <UpuWork> prices are super loltastic
[15:17] <WillDuckworth> no gps
[15:18] <WillDuckworth> that i can find
[15:18] <WillDuckworth> theres a board for an optional one at £4k
[15:19] <WillDuckworth> outrages prices
[15:19] <WillDuckworth> outrageous
[15:19] <chris_99> http://www.clyde-space.com/cubesat_shop/transceivers_rx_tx/transceivers/166_vhf-uhf-transceiver
[15:19] <chris_99> bargain!
[15:19] <UpuWork> yeah I can't help feeling there is a little piss taking going on there
[15:19] <UpuWork> sure they have to recoup their costs
[15:20] <UpuWork> unless they have to pay to have everything ratified
[15:20] <chris_99> surely if you've got the ability to launch / pay for a launch of a satellite, you'd probably be making your own hardware
[15:21] <eroomde> space is like normal life but with extra zeros on the end
[15:21] <eroomde> in any metric
[15:21] <Laurenceb> thing to understand is these projects are time limited
[15:21] <Laurenceb> if you consider launch costs and people wages
[15:21] <Laurenceb> its a bargain
[15:21] <eroomde> chris_99: no way
[15:21] <eroomde> having to reinvent everything every time
[15:21] <eroomde> is bonkers
[15:21] <eroomde> utteraly bonkers
[15:21] <Laurenceb> its the way these projects go
[15:22] <Laurenceb> e.g. atm im drowning in money
[15:22] <chris_99> well, i was thinking, you'd want to just make the hardware very specific to your needs eroomde
[15:22] <Laurenceb> but im limited by having noone competent to help me
[15:22] <eroomde> chris_99: sure that that would cost even more
[15:22] <Laurenceb> thats the limiting factor in lots of stuff
[15:22] <eroomde> good aersoapce engineers cost you as an employers maybe £100/hr
[15:22] <Laurenceb> so you dont want your staff wasting their time
[15:23] <Laurenceb> im presently sending off an order for £14K of custom sensor dies
[15:23] <Laurenceb> i could make them, but its not worth it
[15:23] <Laurenceb> time is money
[15:23] <eroomde> so if you get them to spend a month trying to understand gps and make a prototype (before you even consider a test program for it) then thats £16k just on labour and possibly a similar amount on parts
[15:24] <Laurenceb> money is free
[15:24] <Laurenceb> you just moan to EU and they send you another 1M euros
[15:24] <Laurenceb> :P
[15:24] <Laurenceb> and staff to write proposals are cheap and easy to get
[15:25] <eroomde> we're used to chinese stuff because you can recoup the millions of r&d dollars over billions of sales
[15:25] <eroomde> but the metrics are just not there when you gt into specialist stuff
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[15:27] <WillDuckworth> so which gps unit to use?! would a ublox with unlocked firmware cut it in orbit?
[15:29] <UpuWork> I suspect you'd have to speak to ublox
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[15:30] <UpuWork> and I suspect they wouldn't do it
[15:30] <WillDuckworth> i dropped them a mail - i don't think they will
[15:30] <WillDuckworth> as you say
[15:30] <UpuWork> are you really planning on using it in space ?
[15:31] <nick_> How are you going to get something into space
[15:31] <nick_> ?
[15:31] <WillDuckworth> hypothetical
[15:31] <zyp> you just throw it really hard
[15:32] <UpuWork> if you were CUSF and had a solid plan and backing maybe
[15:33] <WillDuckworth> few more £££ required
[15:36] <eroomde> WillDuckworth: http://www.sst-us.com/shop/satellite-subsystems/global-positioning-systems--gps--receivers/sgr-05p---space-gps-receiver
[15:36] <WillDuckworth> yeah - that'll do nicely ;-]
[15:37] <chris_99> i'm intrigued how they test these http://www.clyde-space.com/cubesat_shop/propulsion/303_cubesat-pulse-plasma-thruster
[15:38] <chris_99> would they actually start to lift in a vacuum type situation
[15:39] <WillDuckworth> aaah - eroomde - i can't have one - only US companies are 'allowed' to purchase them
[15:40] <upix> i bet you can find a company which would buy and resell it to you
[15:41] <chris_99> you can get shipping addresses in the US that re-send goods anywhere. Depends what credentials they ask for
[15:43] <nick_> Planet Money told me yesterday you can start a company in the US without any ID
[15:43] <nick_> Call up, pay your $200 or whatever it costs and job done.
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[15:44] <zyp> chris_99, I've used a service like that
[15:44] <Laurenceb> youll get gitmoed
[15:44] <chris_99> zyp, what was it called? that could be pretty handy
[15:45] <zyp> it's norway specific
[15:45] <chris_99> ah
[15:45] <zyp> as in they fill up a batch every week and put it on a flight to norway
[15:45] <chris_99> cool
[15:46] <zyp> they also do a monthly batch on sea for heavy stuff, can even have cars shipped that way
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[15:54] <fsphil> you can charge lots extra when it's to be used IN SPAAACE.
[15:54] <fsphil> just looking at those cubesat prices
[16:02] <nigelvh> You can also charge lots extra when it's BEEN in space.
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[16:07] <eroomde> but yes clyde space is bonkers
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[16:08] <eroomde> they had a red and a black wire going to a jst connector, or something
[16:08] <eroomde> ah yes here we go
[16:08] <eroomde> http://www.clyde-space.com/cubesat_shop/harnesses/99_2u-solar-panel-connection-harness
[16:08] <eroomde> yours for £500
[16:08] <WillDuckworth> :-O
[16:09] <chris_99> that's just taking the mick
[16:09] <chris_99> how can they justify that
[16:10] <WillDuckworth> here's another pi$$ take: £67K ICOM radio http://www.clyde-space.com/cubesat_shop/ground_stations/343_satellite-tracking-and-control-station-stac
[16:11] <eroomde> chris_99: £100/hr per person
[16:11] <eroomde> probably 2 hrs of lab technician time
[16:11] <eroomde> and 2 hrs of person time bwteen sales, purchasing, stock management
[16:11] <eroomde> then something towards r&d
[16:11] <eroomde> then margin
[16:12] <eroomde> voila
[16:12] <upix> enlighten me on what and where to look for antenna. I'm using rfm22 tranceiver at about 434MHz, that gives me ~17cm quarter wave whip antenna. what other properties should I look for when choosing an antenna and what pages could you recommend for ordering one
[16:13] <eroomde> build one
[16:13] <nigelvh> Yep
[16:13] <nigelvh> Just throw one together.
[16:13] <eroomde> no one in the hisotry of hab has ever bought a 434mhz antenna
[16:13] <eroomde> it's 5 bits of wire
[16:13] <nigelvh> (for the balloon)
[16:13] <eroomde> yes sorry
[16:13] <eroomde> quite right
[16:14] <upix> well I have a 17cm piece of wire
[16:14] <eroomde> you're allowed to buy ground antennas
[16:14] <upix> i can just put it above ground
[16:14] <upix> what's more needed
[16:14] <eroomde> i have to go unfort but the ukhas wiki has pics of peoples antennas
[16:14] <nigelvh> upix, make a really simple 1/4 wave ground plane
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[16:19] <upix> i find it difficult to navigate through ukhas wiki, can't find pages once visited long time ago
[16:19] <upix> anyway eroomde why do you need 5 wires for omni antenna?
[16:19] <fsphil> yea it's a bit twisty and mazy
[16:19] <chris_99> they're probably just mass manufactured in China eroomde
[16:24] <Burninate> Q) What should I do with three pounds of cube steak?
[16:25] <Burninate> okay, wrong channel :)
[16:25] <Burninate> sorry
[16:25] <chris_99> make a curry out of it!
[16:26] <number10> or goulash
[16:26] <domlin> meat pie
[16:26] <Burninate> Here's what I got from ##cooking: "<spb> A) cook it"
[16:26] <Burninate> much appreciated :P
[16:26] <nigelvh> B) eat it
[16:27] <Burninate> meat pie sounds interesting
[16:27] <number10> beef bourguignon
[16:28] <domlin> ooo good shout.
[16:28] <domlin> id say either a pie or a bourguignon
[16:29] <Burninate> I grew up regarding chicken pot pie as an indulgence that was exclusive to mothers / grandmothers cooking and was too labor-intensive / high end to eat all the time
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[16:29] <Burninate> Apparently in London it's poverty street food or something?
[16:30] <nigelvh> In my house it lives in the freezer and I heat it up when I want something easy and tasty.
[16:30] <domlin> not really no, there isn't really any poverty street food so much anymore
[16:31] <domlin> even the most simple dishes which used to be regarded as poverty food have all been given expensive twists
[16:31] <Burninate> in the sense that the poor people got kicked out of the urban areas?
[16:32] <Burninate> In the DC suburbs (outside of the range of food cart-ville), we've at least got our taco / empanada trucks that rotate between downtrodden strip malls
[16:33] <Burninate> but most stereotypical 'poverty food' is now chain fast food or convenience store fare
[16:34] <domlin> in camden in london there is a lot of "street" food, its not parcitularly cheap but its usually very tasty
[16:36] <Burninate> My inference from fiction is that questionable pastries with meat in them were a mainstay in UK street food at some point in history - is that at least accurate?
[16:39] <Burninate> anyway, back to cooking, your help is much appreciated
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[16:44] <MrScienceMan> is there a way to disable interrupts on arduino
[16:44] <MrScienceMan> ?
[16:44] <nick_> yes
[16:45] <nick_> detachInterrupts()
[16:45] <nick_> sorry
[16:45] <nick_> noInterrupts()
[16:46] <jonsowman> just clears the INTE bit in MCUSR i think
[16:46] <nick_> http://arduino.cc/en/Reference/HomePage is very helpful
[16:46] <jonsowman> or SREG
[16:46] <jonsowman> can't remember
[16:47] <MrScienceMan> ill have a look
[16:47] <MrScienceMan> is there some software for windows for parsing aprs packets?
[16:48] <jonsowman> MrScienceMan: AGWPE is a soundcard modem for ax.25
[16:48] <jonsowman> UIView will parse the resulting text data and plot it on a map
[16:48] <upix> coax cable with 17cm of stripped coax VS 4 radial http://ukhas.org.uk/_media/communication:txant.jpg?cache= VS isolated wire poked through aluminum foil sheet: pros, cons and suggestions?
[16:49] <MrScienceMan> jonsowman: i just need to see if my radio is doing ok
[16:49] <MrScienceMan> local stations are not picking up my signal
[16:49] <MrScienceMan> but i get it on the waterfall
[16:50] <jonsowman> what's your transmitting radio?
[16:51] <MrScienceMan> hx1 on 144.800
[16:51] <jonsowman> what antennas?
[16:51] <jonsowman> -s
[16:51] <MrScienceMan> ground plane
[16:51] <MrScienceMan> hold on
[16:51] <MrScienceMan> let me get you a picture
[16:52] <MrScienceMan> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-lyKagjnCa74/UBl7OaFEQkI/AAAAAAAABgQ/TdnAMZPTBH8/s640/TINY.png
[16:53] <jonsowman> that looks fine
[16:53] <jonsowman> how far away are the stations you're trying to transmit to?
[16:54] <MrScienceMan> there should be a few local stations no more than 10km away
[16:54] <MrScienceMan> im also pretty high up, 22th floor
[16:54] <jonsowman> 500mW isn't much, i'm not entirely surprised they can't hear you
[16:54] <jonsowman> especially if it's inside and the polarisation is wrong
[16:55] <MrScienceMan> the antenna nearly outside
[16:55] <MrScienceMan> ill test it on the roof at some point
[16:55] <jonsowman> yeah
[16:55] <MrScienceMan> just want to debug first
[16:55] <jonsowman> as long as you can hear it and decode it, that's fine
[16:56] <MrScienceMan> as i said, i picked it up with my ezcap dongle
[16:56] <jonsowman> you said you can see it on the waterfall
[16:56] <jonsowman> which is not the same as it being decodeable
[16:57] <MrScienceMan> true :)
[16:57] <MrScienceMan> fingers crossed
[16:57] <jonsowman> anyway yes, don't worry about it too much for now
[16:57] <jonsowman> doesn't sound like anything is obviously wrong
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[17:02] <nigelvh> AX.25 is a fiddly monster though. I had packets that sounded right, and were only about two bits off from right, but they wouldn't decode. Had do use audacity and capture the waveform and reference against a good known waveform, and find which bits I was messing up in my software.
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[17:18] <MrScienceMan> jonsowman: AWGPE doesnt detect VAC
[17:18] <MrScienceMan> :(
[17:19] <jonsowman> VAC?
[17:20] <MrScienceMan> virtual audio cable
[17:20] <jonsowman> ah
[17:20] <MrScienceMan> doesnt detect any soundcard infact
[17:21] <jonsowman> it is a bit picky
[17:21] <jonsowman> the other one i know of is MixW but i've never used it
[17:21] <upix> http://www.hamuniverse.com/2mgrnplane.jpg why ground wires are bent 45 degrees and not perpendicular to antenna?
[17:22] <MrScienceMan> q/fq 14
[17:22] <MrScienceMan> you get the proper radiation pattern
[17:22] <upix> when?
[17:22] <MrScienceMan> when they are 45 degrees
[17:23] <upix> in your image they are perpendicular
[17:23] <MrScienceMan> yes they are
[17:23] <jonsowman> it's more for impedance matching
[17:23] <jonsowman> 45 deg backwards presents a closer to 50 ohm match
[17:24] <jonsowman> though really with the transmitters we're using the difference is pretty marginal
[17:25] <upix> is there a reason you (and in tutorials I've seen) mount antenna on SO239
[17:25] <upix> or is it just because it has holes
[17:25] <jonsowman> it's an easy platform to build the antenna upon
[17:25] <upix> ok
[17:26] <jonsowman> SO239 is actually quite lossy at 434MHz
[17:26] <jonsowman> it's by no means electrically optimal
[17:26] <jonsowman> but it does make construction quite easy (if heavy)
[17:27] <MrScienceMan> indead, it was very easy to build
[17:27] <upix> what would be more electrically optimal connectors?
[17:27] <jonsowman> almost anything is better than PL259
[17:28] <jonsowman> if you want some power handling, then N-type
[17:28] <jonsowman> for HAB stuff, BNC and SMA are both popular and not too lossy at 70cms
[17:28] <jonsowman> with SMA being a bit better than BNC
[17:29] <griffonbot> Received email: Jonty Wareing "[UKHAS] Re: Speaking at Electromagnetic Field 2012, and ticket discount!"
[17:29] <jonsowman> jontyw: your email was moderated, should appear now. i've binned the first one
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[17:32] <jontyw> jonsowman, aha, explains the crazy!
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[17:33] <jontyw> jonsowman, thanks
[17:34] <jonsowman> no problem :)
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[17:37] <nigelvh> Yeah, a good SMA is rated to 20GHz, a cheapo one, much less.
[17:37] <SamSilver> unrecovered payload > http://share.findmespot.com/shared/faces/viewspots.jsp?glId=0ROr0x8BZ2s7t8gd1VWUyBEKVhNgnBG8D
[17:39] <nigelvh> If only it were in washington, I'd go out and pick it up.
[17:41] <nigelvh> Free spot for nigel
[17:41] <nigelvh> ;)
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[17:52] <griffonbot> Received email: Dave B "[UKHAS] Re: Speaking at Electromagnetic Field 2012, and ticket discount!"
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[17:53] <mclane> Hi
[17:53] <mclane> good evening
[17:54] <upix> hello
[17:55] <mclane> someone here who has flown already a geiger counter on a hab?
[17:55] <upix> jonsowman: what about F connector wiki says they are up to 1GHz, but has 75Ohm impedance
[17:56] <nigelvh> What are you planning to use the connector for?
[17:56] <upix> well the only short cable i can find in my local electronics shop is F to F
[17:57] <nigelvh> For what?
[17:57] <upix> I want to connect rfm with antenna
[17:57] <upix> 434Mhz
[17:57] <nigelvh> For the balloon?
[17:57] <upix> yeah
[17:57] <nigelvh> I wouldn't use an F
[17:58] <nigelvh> The antenna and transmitter are designed for 50 ohm impedance. Use a cable and connector that matches that.
[17:58] <upix> though so
[17:58] <mattbrejza> the 50:75 mismatch is only about 0.2dB but still not worth it
[17:58] <mattbrejza> but it does mean it doesnt really matter about the connector on the rtl dongles
[17:58] <nigelvh> Also F connectors aren't particularly nice.
[17:59] <fsphil> better than the tv connectors we use here
[17:59] <fsphil> but I wouldn't use them anywhere where I could use an SMA or N plug
[18:00] <nigelvh> You use a TV that uses something other than an F?
[18:00] <mattbrejza> we hve a push fit thing
[18:00] <fsphil> yea, it's a bit icky.. can't remember the name
[18:00] <nigelvh> They make F push fits.
[18:00] <nigelvh> Every TV I've ever seen either has an F, or the two posts for 300 ohm ladder line
[18:01] <mattbrejza> it doesnt really have a name other the 'tv aerial' or PAL aerial connector
[18:01] <mattbrejza> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV_aerial_plug
[18:01] <upix> what if I just soldered antenna and rmf via 50Ohm coax directly?
[18:01] <upix> bad idea?
[18:01] <fsphil> that's the one
[18:01] <mattbrejza> it qwould work but would be arkward
[18:01] <nigelvh> That is a rather odd connector!
[18:02] <nigelvh> You brits you.
[18:02] <fsphil> they're horrible
[18:02] <mattbrejza> nearer 50ohm then 75 too :/
[18:02] <fsphil> hah, 0-100MHz
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[18:03] <fsphil> our TV band is 500mhz-800mhz
[18:03] <mattbrejza> yea that wont be 3dB though
[18:04] <upix> what is loss when using SO239
[18:05] <mattbrejza> its supposed to be 50ohm and so fine
[18:05] <mattbrejza> often used as the hub of the antenna
[18:05] <Gadget-Mac> Evening all
[18:05] <nigelvh> They're not perfect at 434, but they're good enough, and definitely better than an F.
[18:05] <jonsowman> mattbrejza: it's quite lossy at 434 though
[18:05] <jonsowman> where "quite" is a relative term
[18:06] <mattbrejza> which is why theyre on the back of the icom...
[18:06] <jonsowman> no idea why
[18:06] <jonsowman> the FT817 has a BNC for VHF/UHF
[18:06] <jonsowman> much more sensible
[18:06] <mattbrejza> tbh connectors dont make too much difference until you get into the GHz
[18:07] <mattbrejza> remember to torque up your connectors to 0.9Nm
[18:07] <gonzo_> I have an idea what the F stands for!
[18:07] <upix> mattbrejza: why 0.9?
[18:07] <mattbrejza> thats what theyre designed for
[18:07] <nigelvh> upix don't worry about that. hand tight is good enough
[18:08] <gonzo_> (BNC's don't torque !)
[18:08] <upix> ok
[18:08] <upix> was afraid of how am I gonna measure torque
[18:08] <mattbrejza> it really doesnt matter <1GHz
[18:08] <jonsowman> yeah you will need a torque wrench
[18:08] <jonsowman> :P
[18:08] <mattbrejza> make sure its still in call
[18:08] <mattbrejza> *cal
[18:09] <mattbrejza> 'The center conductor jack on the SO-239 will also accept a 4 mm banana plug'
[18:09] <jonsowman> oh god
[18:09] <jonsowman> that sounds like a terrible idea
[18:09] <gonzo_> that's all a pl259 is!
[18:10] <mattbrejza> turns out that N and bnc have the same internal dimensions so they can fit together
[18:10] <mattbrejza> bnc socket and N plug only though
[18:10] <gonzo_> not nice, the N centre pin will splay out bnc sockets
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[18:10] <jonsowman> also sounds like a bad idea
[18:10] <mattbrejza> yea i didnt do this on a piece of test year
[18:10] <mattbrejza> gear
[18:11] <jonsowman> glad to hear it
[18:11] <upix> http://evita.lt/det-17620-uhf-lizdas-prietaisui-kvadratinis.html http://lemona.lt/index.php?page=item&i_id=35059 which one looks better for you?
[18:11] <jonsowman> either looks fine upix
[18:11] <mattbrejza> which ever is cheapest
[18:12] <jonsowman> *cheaper
[18:12] <jonsowman> </pedant>
[18:12] <mattbrejza> pfft
[18:12] <jonsowman> lol
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[18:14] <upix> What should connect to the other end is there a connection or I'll have to solder a wire
[18:14] <upix> sorry if I'm asking dumb questions
[18:14] <jonsowman> yeah solder the centre conductor of the coax to the pin
[18:15] <mattbrejza> http://www.cybermarket.co.uk/shop/connectors/uhf-connectors/standard-uhf-connector-pl259-253919.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=base&utm_campaign=H7Media
[18:15] <upix> and the coax to outer metal?
[18:15] <jonsowman> upix: yes, the braid needs to be connected to the connector shield
[18:15] <upix> thanks
[18:16] <jonsowman> trying to find a picture
[18:16] <jonsowman> http://gallery.apexhab.org/index.php/Apex-II/Antennas/Arial-1
[18:16] <upix> what about the wire used for antenna is 12 gauge ok?
[18:16] <jonsowman> so this is a PL-259 to BNC cable to connect the antenna and payload
[18:16] <mattbrejza> a typical thing to do is have bnc on the payload, and bnc->pl259 cable, and an antenna built around a so239 socket
[18:17] <jonsowman> upix: 12awg will be fine
[18:17] <jonsowman> in fact anything will be fine as long as it's held straight
[18:17] <jonsowman> even down to 20awg is ok if it's strapped to something to hold it straight
[18:18] <jonsowman> also yes, the PL259-BNC cable will make your life easier
[18:18] <jonsowman> http://gallery.apexhab.org/index.php/Apex-II/Antennas/100_1472
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[18:19] <mattbrejza> tbh anything that holds the antenna onto the coax will do
[18:19] <mattbrejza> and can then attach to the radio
[18:19] <Upu> that looks spikey
[18:20] <jonsowman> Upu: it was de-spikeyfied before launch
[18:20] <Upu> :)
[18:20] <mattbrejza> its fine theres heatshrink over the up bits...
[18:21] <jonsowman> in the first picture you can see the ball of squishy stuff on the end
[18:21] <jonsowman> foam covered in gaffa tape
[18:21] <jonsowman> standard engineering practise
[18:27] <jcoxon> evening all
[18:29] <jonsowman> hello
[18:29] <jonsowman> hows things?
[18:30] <jcoxon> hey MrScienceMan hows the preparations going?
[18:30] <MrScienceMan> trying to decode my own APRS packets
[18:30] <MrScienceMan> and failing miserably
[18:30] <MrScienceMan> :)
[18:31] <jcoxon> eek
[18:31] <nigelvh> Are you using the ardutracker code, or did you write your own APRS code?
[18:31] <MrScienceMan> got the modem code from trackuino
[18:31] <jcoxon> MrScienceMan, try fsphil's code
[18:32] <MrScienceMan> cant be sure the local aprs station can hear me
[18:32] <nigelvh> I wasn't too happy with the code from trackuino either. I ended up writing my own. I haven't looked at fsphil's code, but it's definitely worth a try.
[18:32] <MrScienceMan> its pretty terrible
[18:32] <MrScienceMan> it constantly reads the GPS serial and parses the sentatances
[18:33] <MrScienceMan> dont even check if the gps has lock
[18:33] <nigelvh> Also, I tend to use either AGWPE or MixW to do my local decoding.
[18:33] <jcoxon> https://github.com/jamescoxon/Eurus/blob/master/2mTracker/Combo/Combo.ino this works with a radiometrix HX1
[18:33] <jcoxon> lots of extras there
[18:33] <jcoxon> but worked well for me
[18:33] <MrScienceMan> trying to configure AGWPE, but it doesnt list any of my audio devices
[18:33] <nigelvh> Try MixW
[18:33] <MrScienceMan> nothing
[18:34] <nigelvh> I think it's got a trial
[18:34] <jcoxon> mixw is probably easier to setup
[18:34] <MrScienceMan> not sure how to setup mixw
[18:34] <nigelvh> Just install it, then in the mode menu select packet, then in the mode settings option choose the 1200 baud standard.
[18:34] <jonsowman> might be worth considering a second hand TNC?
[18:35] <jonsowman> i got a Kantronics KPC-3 off ebay a while back for about £25
[18:35] <MrScienceMan> nah, i've got someone who can help with this
[18:35] <MrScienceMan> unfortunately he wont be around till monday
[18:35] <MrScienceMan> nigelvh: i figured that far, but then nothing
[18:35] <gonzo_> you ca get PK232's for £25 these days
[18:35] <MrScienceMan> im using SDRsharp
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[18:36] <nigelvh> If it's not showing anything then it's probably not able to decode the packets.
[18:36] <jonsowman> gonzo_: ebay?
[18:36] <jcoxon> MrScienceMan, you still launching this weekend?
[18:36] <gonzo_> poss a little more o eay, ut ot taht much more
[18:36] <MrScienceMan> jcoxon: probably not, our application to launch is being stalled
[18:37] <jcoxon> oh
[18:37] <jcoxon> more time to do the work then :-)
[18:38] <MrScienceMan> i've turned on the trackuino debug code
[18:38] <MrScienceMan> getting modem overuns
[18:38] <upix> jonsowman or Upu: could you explain the part where you talked about spikes?
[18:38] <jcoxon> MrScienceMan, honestly scrap it
[18:39] <MrScienceMan> LZ1NY-9>APERXQ,WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1:/000000h0000.00N/00000.00EO000/000/A=000000/Ti=27/Te=33 TINYv1
[18:39] <jonsowman> upix: oh, we usually advice that the driven element (pointing downwards) should have something soft and squashy on the end of it
[18:39] <MrScienceMan> t=511, pos=706, sam=16
[18:39] <MrScienceMan> MODEM OVERRUNS: 99
[18:39] <jonsowman> so that it doesn't damage whatever it hits
[18:39] <jonsowman> *advise
[18:40] <griffonbot> Received email: James Coxon "[UKHAS] UKHAS Conference - go on sign up!"
[18:40] <upix> jonsowman: like hot glue?
[18:40] <jonsowman> upix: something a bit more substantial perhaps, like a ping pong ball
[18:41] <MrScienceMan> jcoxon: got it
[18:41] <MrScienceMan> http://aprs.fi/?c=raw&call=LZ1NY-9&limit=50&view=normal
[18:42] <MrScienceMan> oh man, it was so obvious
[18:42] <nigelvh> Yeah?
[18:42] <MrScienceMan> the function that reads the digital temp sensor takes about 500ms
[18:43] <nigelvh> Yep
[18:43] <nigelvh> That would do it.
[18:43] <MrScienceMan> i was using it during the transmission
[18:43] <nigelvh> Yeah, you really can't be doing much of anything during the transmission.
[18:43] <MrScienceMan> yes
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[18:43] <jcoxon> excellent
[18:43] <fsphil> nothing interrupt based, anything else is fair game
[18:44] <nigelvh> In my old code, I had been popping the next byte off the bottom of a buffer and shifting the buffer down. It worked, but it caused the baud rate to vary based on the length of the message, so I had to redo that portion.
[18:44] <fsphil> your sensor code was probably turning interrupts off
[18:44] <MrScienceMan> no
[18:45] <MrScienceMan> but, it takes samples for about 500ms
[18:45] <fsphil> only turning interrupts off, or another interrupt, will affect it
[18:45] <nigelvh> He was reading the sensor value during the transmission, so it had to wait to get the value.
[18:45] <fsphil> quite a lot of 1-wire libraries will turn of interrupts briefly to get accurate timing for example
[18:46] <fsphil> it doesn't wait for the entire packet before transmitting?
[18:46] <MrScienceMan> https://code.google.com/p/trackuino/source/browse/src/aprs.cpp?repo=trackuino-firmware#66
[18:46] <MrScienceMan> as I said, i have made much modification to the code yet
[18:47] <Gadget-Mac> It's one of the downsides of 1-wire the conversion times
[18:47] <MrScienceMan> have not*
[18:47] <fsphil> aaah
[18:47] <MrScienceMan> its a digital temp sensor
[18:47] <fsphil> I didn't realise trackuino worked that way
[18:48] <fsphil> it *should* wait for ax25_flush_frame() before tx'ing
[18:49] <Gadget-Mac> How many payloads have external temp sensors ?
[18:50] <nigelvh> I run an external, but it's an analog sensor.
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[18:53] <nigelvh> Also, there is an advantage to the trackuino code in that it is interrupt driven.
[18:53] <nigelvh> I haven't taken the time to do that with my code, so mine is all blocking.
[18:53] <MrScienceMan> fsphil: yeah, i know
[18:54] <MrScienceMan> completely forgot about the how long that function takes
[18:54] <mattbrejza> start conversion and do sometihng else for 750ms?
[18:54] <jonsowman> as long as you're sure to be finished at the right time
[18:54] <jonsowman> ow is very time critical
[18:55] <fsphil> the version I wrote takes the complete packet in one go
[18:55] <mattbrejza> isnt 750ms worst case?
[18:55] <jonsowman> isn't there a single conversion mode that you can use to make it run quicker?
[18:56] <nigelvh> Yeah, that's what mine does, buffers everything beforehand and then transmits it, it's just not interrupt based so I can't do anything while it's running.
[18:56] <jonsowman> i might be thinking of another sensor
[18:56] <Gadget-Mac> You can make all sensors on the bus start their conversion at the same time
[18:56] <Gadget-Mac> As long as you're not using parasitic power
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[19:03] <mclane> hi, has someone already flown a geiger counter?
[19:04] <nick_> I heard about a russion group who have flown hundreds of geiger flights
[19:05] <jonsowman> mclane: i flew two GM tubes a couple of years a go with the Apex project
[19:06] <jonsowman> *ago
[19:06] <mclane> any problems with isolation of high voltage at high altitude -> low atmospheric pressure?
[19:06] <jonsowman> well, the tubes failed at altitude
[19:06] <jonsowman> on both flights
[19:06] <jonsowman> and it appears others have experienced the same thing
[19:06] <jonsowman> see graph 4 on http://www.hexoc.com/pages/apex/apex-ii/launch-2-data.php
[19:07] <jonsowman> as you can see they started working again on the way down
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[19:08] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[19:08] <mclane> any idea why they failed at altitude?
[19:09] <jonsowman> we're not sure, and neither are the manufacturers
[19:09] <jonsowman> data seems to indicate pressure rather than temperature being the issue
[19:10] <Lunar_Lander> what failed?
[19:10] <nick_> At low enough pressure you presumably don't get much of a shower
[19:10] <nick_> So maybe the signal goes below threshold
[19:11] <MrScienceMan> there seems to be alot of aprs traffic
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[19:12] <nick_> You could probably even estimate the lowest pressure they can work at if you know the mean free path, the required gain, etc.
[19:12] <Lunar_Lander> what are you discussing currently?
[19:12] <nick_> geiger tubes at altitude
[19:12] <Lunar_Lander> ah
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[19:15] <Lunar_Lander> yeah they are like a problem recently
[19:16] <nick_> buy one of my detectors once I make them ;)
[19:16] <Lunar_Lander> the scintillation ones?
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[19:20] <mclane> I am also evaluating using a pin photodiode instead
[19:20] <mclane> does not need high voltage
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[19:21] <mclane> but seems to be very sensitive to any kind of noise
[19:21] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[19:21] <Lunar_Lander> mclane, the Elektor from June 2011?
[19:22] <Lunar_Lander> i.e. I mean they described a PIN gamma-ray detector
[19:22] <mclane> there is a more advanced version in Elektor some months later
[19:22] <Lunar_Lander> ah ok
[19:23] <mclane> using an opamp with a jfet in front instead of two bipolar transistors
[19:23] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[19:23] <nick_> Your rate with a pin diode will be ~0
[19:24] <jonsowman> mclane: http://www.maxim-ic.com/app-notes/index.mvp/id/2236
[19:24] <mclane> yea, I saw that also
[19:24] <upix> Antenna mounted on SO259 <-> PL259 to BNC female <-> BNC-BNC cable <-> BNC jack connected to rfm22. Good idea or not?
[19:24] <Lunar_Lander> nick_, why?
[19:25] <nick_> Your detection area ~0
[19:25] <mattbrejza> upix: bad
[19:25] <upix> why?
[19:25] <jonsowman> upix: you want to keep the number of connections down
[19:25] <jonsowman> since they introduce loss
[19:25] <mattbrejza> for some reason i read that as gps antenna
[19:25] <mattbrejza> 434 antenna not so bad
[19:25] <jonsowman> yeah it wouldn't be a huge problem
[19:25] <jonsowman> but you've got one unrequired connection
[19:25] <upix> so no connection converters?
[19:26] <mattbrejza> you can make a pl259 -> bnc cable
[19:26] <jonsowman> yes, do that ^. one fewer connection
[19:26] <upix> I will just looking for alternatives
[19:26] <mattbrejza> the converters are really not that bad, its just if you can avoid then avoid
[19:27] <upix> aye
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[19:35] <upix> is it worth buying gold plated jacks or regular one will do
[19:37] <mattbrejza> very little difference if any
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[19:58] <upix> http://lemona.lt/index.php?page=item&i_id=24110# I found this BNC socket which seems to have holes just like UHF
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[19:59] <upix> or is it too good to be true
[20:01] <number10> upix, if you are looking to make a 1/4 wave that will do
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[20:06] <upix> yeah that's what I'm doing
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[21:13] <radim_OM2AMR> good evening
[21:13] <Lunar_Lander> hello radim_OM2AMR
[21:13] <radim_OM2AMR> I would like to inform you, that I'm testing STS-1 payload in tracker, so don't panic ;-) It's just simulated GPS track ;-)
[21:14] <radim_OM2AMR> Hi Lunar_Lander
[21:14] <Lunar_Lander> cool!
[21:14] <Lunar_Lander> today I tested my board and suddenly I thought there was smoke!
[21:14] <Lunar_Lander> hope that it didn't fry something
[21:15] <radim_OM2AMR> oops, and did you check it again if everything is OK ?
[21:16] <radim_OM2AMR> I'm pushing to my tracker exported Viena radiosonde GPS track :-)
[21:16] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[21:16] <Lunar_Lander> radio still gave out the sensor data
[21:16] <Lunar_Lander> there is just something about the temperature sensor, that just gives 1000.00
[21:16] <Lunar_Lander> indicating an error
[21:16] <Lunar_Lander> but that had been there on friday too
[21:16] <radim_OM2AMR> what kind of temp sensor do you have ?
[21:16] <Lunar_Lander> so I have to look at that
[21:16] <Lunar_Lander> DS18B20
[21:17] <radim_OM2AMR> the same as mine
[21:17] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[21:17] <Lunar_Lander> I'll check the code again :)
[21:18] <radim_OM2AMR> I have very messy code, as I have APRS and UKHAS rtty in one CPU :-|
[21:18] <Lunar_Lander> oh ok
[21:19] <radim_OM2AMR> I would like to prove 144.8 and 434.650 radios and different telemetry types. After that I will choose the better one ;-)
[21:19] <Lunar_Lander> cool!
[21:22] <radim_OM2AMR> OK, I'll let the simulation running. I hope that it will not cause any problems in the tracker
[21:24] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[21:25] <radim_OM2AMR> Lunar, may I ask you, where are you come from ? :-)
[21:25] <Lunar_Lander> Germany
[21:26] <radim_OM2AMR> nice, so maybe I will receive your flight here in Slovakia ;-)
[21:26] <Lunar_Lander> yeah :)
[21:26] <Lunar_Lander> we also got people from Holland and Denmark who hope to hear it
[21:26] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[21:27] <radim_OM2AMR> have you already any date for the flight ?
[21:27] <Lunar_Lander> not yet
[21:28] <Lunar_Lander> early september maybe
[21:28] <radim_OM2AMR> yeah, 8-th sept is our date ;-)
[21:28] <Lunar_Lander> cool :)
[21:29] <radim_OM2AMR> not official currently, we have to send the request to slovakian CAA
[21:32] <Lunar_Lander> yea
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[21:39] <Laurenceb_> www2.bren.ucsb.edu/~dturney/port/papers/Electroless/16.pdf
[21:39] <Laurenceb_> plating platinum in hydrazine
[21:39] <Laurenceb_> it doesnt get more hardcore
[21:39] <Lunar_Lander> XD yay satellite fuel
[21:40] <fsphil> nom
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[21:47] <radim_OM2AMR> hi fsphil, can I ask you something ?
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[21:53] <Lunar_Lander> radim_OM2AMR, just ask
[21:53] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[21:54] <fsphil> hiya radim_OM2AMR
[21:55] <radim_OM2AMR> regarding tracker spacenear.us - I saw during the last BUZZ Scout flight path predictions. Is it necessary to activate built in predictor some way ?
[21:55] <fsphil> yea someone here needs to configure and enable it just before the launch
[21:56] <radim_OM2AMR> Oki, thanks. I'm just trying STS-1 now, so I don't need it currently ;-)
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[22:28] <griffonbot> Received email: Jonty Wareing "Re: [UKHAS] Re: Speaking at Electromagnetic Field 2012, and ticket discount!"
[22:33] <MrScienceMan> fsphil: got some packets decoded from statinos 10km away
[22:34] <MrScienceMan> more than half the packets get lost
[22:34] <fsphil> sweet, what radio?
[22:34] <MrScienceMan> hx1
[22:34] <fsphil> not bad at all
[22:34] <fsphil> do you live high up?
[22:35] <MrScienceMan> about 80m above city level
[22:36] <MrScienceMan> packets are send every 6sec
[22:36] <MrScienceMan> which is spammy
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[22:48] <fsphil> it is
[22:48] <fsphil> I've my own setup for 60 second intervals
[22:49] <fsphil> though I'd say 30 seconds is fine too
[22:51] <fsphil> one thing rtty on the ism band has for it, you can transmit as often as you want :)
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[23:26] <MrScienceMan> fsphil: idd
[23:26] <MrScienceMan> i assumed there are other transmisters that overpower my signal
[23:27] <MrScienceMan> perhaps i should make the intervals shorter when under certain altitude and 60 sec when in the sky
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[23:39] <fsphil> watch the path when in the air, no point having packets repeated on the groud
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[00:00] --- Fri Aug 3 2012