highaltitude.log.20120731

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[00:19] <KT5TK_QRL> Hi, anyone still awake?
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[00:19] <KT5TK_QRL> nigelvh?
[00:19] <KT5TK_QRL> Pecan PCBs arrived
[00:20] <KT5TK_QRL> They came faster than I thought. See http://kt5tk.tkrahn.com/download/PecanNut/photos/pcb/ All parts except for the pressure sensor are here, so I'll start soldering one transmitter without GPS and pressure sensor to test the HF chain.
[00:42] <griffonbot> Received email: Henry Hallam "Re: [UKHAS] Re: MONDO launch..."
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[05:43] <SamSilver> I am looking for the lazy google link Darkside has used it once or twice but i can not recall it
[05:46] <SamSilver> when someone is to lazy to use google you send them this link to tell them (rudley) to use google
[05:47] <KT5TK> you mean this one? http://www.giyf.com/
[05:48] <UpuHome> morning
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[05:49] Nick change: UpuHome -> Upu
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[05:49] <Upu> looks good KT5TK
[05:49] <KT5TK> The link or Pecan?
[05:50] <Upu> Pecan
[05:50] <KT5TK> Thanks :)
[05:51] <SamSilver> thanx
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[05:53] <griffonbot> Received email: Nigel Vander Houwen "Re: [UKHAS] Ofcom position on use of Amateur licence to remote
[05:54] <SamSilver> thax Upu and KT5TK
[05:54] <SamSilver> thanx
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[06:49] <jcoxon> morning all
[06:51] <number10> morning
[06:56] <UpuWork> morning
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[07:01] <number10> UpuWork: I will be travelling back from the lakes on the conference day so will not be able to see vidoe stream - will any of the presentations be recorded?
[07:02] <UpuWork> yeah think so
[07:02] <UpuWork> should be a little better this time
[07:02] <UpuWork> reminds me batc never got back to me
[07:03] <number10> great
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[07:05] <jcoxon> can i clear the tracker?
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[07:34] <nosebleedkt_> I want hydrogen ?
[07:34] <nosebleedkt_> I want hydrogen !
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[08:23] <jcoxon> shaved off 3mA between transmissions by completely turning off the radio
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[08:28] <Darkside> doesn't that make it drift a bit when it starts up?
[08:30] <KT5TK> depends on the radio. I do the same with the MX146, no problems (on 144 MHz though)
[08:30] <Darkside> this one does seem to drift when uyou power it on and off
[08:30] <jcoxon> am checking right now
[08:31] <jcoxon> its my pico payload so quite extreme power saving
[08:31] <jcoxon> actually not too bad
[08:32] <jcoxon> i'm leading with 2 seconds of carrier
[08:32] <jcoxon> AFC is coping
[08:32] <Darkside> ahh ok
[08:32] <Darkside> thats better
[08:32] <Darkside> yeah, you need the carrier there
[08:32] <Darkside> else it dies
[08:32] <KT5TK> In the worst case you can turn it on 10 sec earlier
[08:32] <Darkside> you lose the $$
[08:34] <jcoxon> currently i'm playing around with settings
[08:35] <KT5TK> Damn I've chosen the wrong Layout for my 5V power regulator. http://kt5tk.tkrahn.com/downloads/PecanNut/photos/dry_test/wrong_TPS77350.jpg
[08:35] <jcoxon> Darkside, so if solar voltage is low it turns the GPS on, waits for a lock, turns it off and then transmits
[08:36] <KT5TK> I may use a TPS766350, but then two pins (3+4) need to get swapped
[08:37] <KT5TK> TPS76650 I mean
[08:56] <daveake> jcoxon Yes clear the tracker
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[09:25] <craag> I'm looking for somewhere to get 1-off, 2+ layer, roughly 1 inch by 2 inch PCB made. Anyone know anywhere cheap? (from UK)
[09:26] <UpuWork> Yeah
[09:26] <UpuWork> Well if you want it made in the UK no
[09:27] <UpuWork> but if you want it cheap
[09:27] <craag> Nah, I just meant cheap from the UK, so not a US-based with extortionate shipping.
[09:27] <UpuWork> join #hackvana and speak to CapnKernel
[09:27] <UpuWork> He ships from China and its $4
[09:28] <UpuWork> you'll end up with 8 boards for about $18 delivered usually
[09:28] <UpuWork> depends on the size of board
[09:28] <craag> Wow great. Thanks!
[09:28] <UpuWork> he's in China so be aware of TZ
[09:29] <craag> Gotcha. I just wanted to know whether it would be affordable at this point really, so I shall have to design it now!
[09:29] <UpuWork> oh yes its affordable
[09:29] <UpuWork> I don't bother with strip board and breadboard any more
[09:30] <craag> Yeah! I'm pretty sure thats cheaper than the last bit of stripboard I got from maplin...
[09:30] <daveake> :)
[09:31] <UpuWork> well exactly
[09:31] <daveake> It's got to be cheaper than buying blanks and FeCl3 (and new clothes after you splash yourself)
[09:31] <UpuWork> and the results are considerably more professional
[09:32] <UpuWork> My Dad's garage still bears the scars of me trying to make my own PCb's
[09:32] <daveake> :)
[09:34] <craag> Just one more question: What free PCB design software do you recommend?
[09:34] <craag> I've still got some acetate and marker pen somewhere...
[09:35] <daveake> Threw mine out last clearout, I think
[09:35] <griffonbot> Received email: Steve Aerospace "Re: [UKHAS] Ofcom position on use of Amateur licence to remote
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[09:59] <Randomskk> craag: I use KiCad
[09:59] <Randomskk> people also like Eagle
[10:00] <eroomde> Eagle, I don't think it's unfair to say, seems to currently have the mindshare of the internet hobby scene
[10:00] <eroomde> largely because of v good library suppot (people like sparkfun use eagle and release footprints for all their bits)
[10:00] <eroomde> and now farnell have been providing eagle parts on their website, which is v nic
[10:01] <Darkside> mm
[10:01] <Darkside> i put a request for an eagle importer in the next version of altium designer
[10:01] <Darkside> hopefully it'll happn
[10:01] <Darkside> it already imports basically everything else
[10:05] <daveake> From what Ed said about sparkfun and Farnell etc., they'd be daft not to
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[10:08] <eroomde> also eagle is available on linix, windows and osx
[10:08] <eroomde> i beleive altium is windows only
[10:08] <eroomde> rendering it unusable
[10:08] <eroomde> oh hey upu didn;t see ya there
[10:09] <UpuWork> I'm with you on Altrium
[10:12] <daveake> Apparently I photographed Jesus lol - http://www.flickr.com/photos/daveake/7576243926/
[10:13] <UpuWork> ffs
[10:13] <UpuWork> No its a cloud
[10:13] <UpuWork> idiot
[10:13] <nick_> Why is any vague face Jesus?
[10:13] <nick_> I don't believe anyone actually knows what Jesus looked like.
[10:13] <UpuWork> because people are stupid
[10:13] <eroomde> i told you
[10:13] <jcoxon> i think its jesus
[10:13] <eroomde> it's the 2nd Coming
[10:14] <nick_> Not least because a lot of art would have you believe he's a pale white guy
[10:14] <UpuWork> indeed
[10:14] <craag> Randomskk: Thanks, Eagle looks good! Didn't notice it was freeware at the first glance.
[10:14] <UpuWork> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/93/Buddy_christ.jpg/300px-Buddy_christ.jpg
[10:14] <UpuWork> looks nothing like it
[10:14] <daveake> lol
[10:15] <nick_> Dude, that's not Jesus, that's Brian
[10:15] <eroomde> craag: it's free for 2 layer boards, 80mm x 100mm max
[10:15] <eroomde> and a single sheet in the schematic editor
[10:15] <UpuWork> and learning it is frustrating
[10:15] <eroomde> you have to pay to get bigger boards and >2 layers
[10:15] <UpuWork> but it clicks eventually
[10:16] <eroomde> the limitation should be much of a problem for basic habby stuff
[10:17] <eroomde> except for that time when you need a 120mm x 20mm pcb to fit in a pvc tube or something
[10:17] Action: nick_ really needs to get some boards designed and made
[10:17] <daveake> ^ read that as "beards"
[10:17] <daveake> sorry :)
[10:17] <nick_> Beards should not be designed, they should be allowed to grow naturally
[10:17] <daveake> :)
[10:18] <nick_> Although I might have to trim mine soon :S
[10:18] <daveake> <shocked>
[10:19] <nick_> Apparently one is meant to look smart at a wedding
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[10:21] <Laurenceb> http://www.kebaili.com/pd-kmhp-100-bare-die.cfm
[10:21] <eroomde> there is only 1 letter different between fiance and finance
[10:22] <eroomde> this, and other witticisms are available in my new book, eroomde's pub-bore observations, volume 1
[10:22] <nick_> How are addresses set for I2C components?
[10:22] <eroomde> either pre-programmed and u hope u don;t get a clash
[10:22] <eroomde> or for example with simple things like the lm75 temp chips, there are 3 pins that you tie up or down to set a 3 bit address
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[10:41] Action: nick_ is looking for some DACs with a decent I2C address range
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[10:44] <eroomde> nick_: what kind of resolution?
[10:44] <eroomde> and how many channels?
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[10:45] <eroomde> and if one of them could do all the channels you want, does it need to be i2c? could it be something less yuck (I don't like i2c) like spi?
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[10:50] <nick_> I'm not sure that one could do
[10:50] <nick_> Basically each detector channel needs 2 DACs probably
[10:50] <nick_> One for the HV and one for LV
[10:51] <eroomde> how many channels?
[10:51] <eroomde> could u bring the detectors along this eve? would be interested to have a look
[10:51] <nick_> Probably 2
[10:51] <eroomde> ah well a 4ch dac should be no problem
[10:51] <nick_> But one of my collaborators would like at lest 4 channels
[10:51] <eroomde> 8ch dac also doable
[10:52] <nick_> By that do you mean 8 channels on one chip?
[10:52] <eroomde> yes
[10:52] <eroomde> 1 chip producing 8 different programmable voltages
[10:52] <nick_> OK, because there would probably be a separate board for each detector channel
[10:52] <eroomde> ah righty
[10:52] <eroomde> fair enough
[10:52] <eroomde> i2c makes sense for that then
[10:52] <nick_> So I think I2C makes sense
[10:52] <eroomde> u probs don't need me to tell u that infact
[10:53] <eroomde> and what kind of resolution do you need?
[10:53] <nick_> Because as long as there are enough programmable channels then the master board (with the uC and power) doesn't care how many detector boards so much
[10:53] <nick_> Because I can have it have a dozen inputs or whatever
[10:53] <nick_> Way more than I need
[10:54] <nick_> What kind of thing would you like to see?
[10:55] <nick_> There's at least one board I cannot bring, because I was leant it under pain of death
[10:55] <eroomde> :)
[10:55] <eroomde> well the detectors might be interesting
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[10:57] <nick_> The good news atm is that it seems that the crappy old power supply seems to be the cause of some of my instability
[10:57] <eroomde> yeah
[10:58] <eroomde> i found myself much calmer when i introducd more fruit and veg into my diet
[10:58] <nick_> I think I need to solder up a new one of my trigger boards though, the PD is wrong for my new sensors
[10:59] <eroomde> could whack in surface mount pots for the prototype one
[10:59] <nick_> If I run at the sensor's recommended bais then my trigger voltage is set too low.
[10:59] <nick_> I have a pot int he design, but I soldered it up wrong
[10:59] <nick_> :(
[10:59] <nick_> Forgot I don't have vias
[11:00] <nick_> oops
[11:00] <nick_> I've got a spare though, might solder it up toda
[11:00] <nick_> y
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[11:02] <eroomde> cool beans
[11:18] <Laurenceb> these looks awesome
[11:18] <Laurenceb> http://www.kebaili.com/pd-kmhp-100-bare-die.cfm
[11:18] <eroomde> MCMC in da house
[11:20] <Laurenceb> 650C with 100mw is pretty impressive
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[11:34] <eroomde> rocking a new nick
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[11:35] <jsowman> mm yes, for work
[11:36] <eroomde> as in, you have a work irc?
[11:37] <jsowman> no, just using the webclient at work since no ssh access
[11:37] <eroomde> ah righty
[11:37] <eroomde> how is work going?
[11:37] <jsowman> yes good thanks
[11:37] <jsowman> :)
[11:37] <jsowman> how about you?
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[11:38] <eroomde> v good, tho slow morning today
[11:38] <eroomde> back to gps tomorrow i hope
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[11:38] <jsowman> cool
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[13:17] <cuddykid> had an idea.. could we get a pico (foil) to float in the jetstream (or higher) by say 1/2 inflating it on the ground then carrying it up on a normal HAB and then detaching it at certain alt? Probably would be quite a balancing act to get it to float though
[13:19] <Laurenceb> ....
[13:19] <Laurenceb> why the hell would that help
[13:20] <daveake> Any multi-balloon tricks only can only get you to the float altitude quicker. In other words, if it has the correct fill to float at some altitude, then it will have enough gas to get there from the ground (eventually)
[13:20] <Laurenceb> if its going to float in the jet stream its going to float in the jet stream
[13:20] <cuddykid> fly faster? just a random thought lol
[13:21] <cuddykid> but with the size of the foils there is surely some altitude limit as if they're under filled (to get to jet stream altitude) then it may never lift tracking equip
[13:22] <UpuWork> wb cuddykid
[13:22] <UpuWork> coming to the conference ?
[13:22] <cuddykid> hiya UpuWork :) probably but I won't be certain until closer to the time. Got a few things going on around then and dates won't be confirmed until early sept :(
[13:23] <daveake> cuddykid the altitude limit is the one where it's full and it doesn't have enough lift to go further
[13:23] <daveake> If you suddenly place it higher than that, with less gas, it will fall
[13:29] <griffonbot> Received email: gonzo_ "[UKHAS] Re: Ofcom position on use of Amateur licence to remote
[13:29] <griffonbot> Received email: Dave Hibberd "Re: [UKHAS] Ofcom position on use of Amateur licence to remote
[13:36] <Lucasbuck> hi guys, i found the channel info on your website. im im a bit of an electronics hobbyist / programming and what not.
[13:36] <Lucasbuck> Ive been reading up on some of the previous projects you have launched
[13:37] <Lucasbuck> i was wondering if its possible to help out on a launch, or come along and assist in any way so i can learn a bit more about them
[13:38] <daveake> Whereabouts are you?
[13:38] <gonzo_> welcome
[13:38] <Upu> hey Lucasbuck
[13:48] <Laurenceb> hahaha
[13:49] <Laurenceb> north korea are 4th in medal table
[13:49] <Laurenceb> UK getting pwned
[13:49] <Laurenceb> wonder if their leader will be able to turn up and congratulate them
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[13:53] <gonzo_> pawned?
[13:55] <SamSilver> owned
[13:55] <SamSilver> well same as owned but different
[13:56] <Laurenceb> yes, what north korea is doing to the uk
[13:56] <griffonbot> Received email: David Akerman "Re: [UKHAS] Scout Sunday"
[13:56] <griffonbot> @daveake: Have written up the 5th Hucknall Scouts flight http://t.co/7pQQiPjA #UKHAS [http://twitter.com/daveake/status/230300970238767104]
[13:57] <gonzo_> Realised that, just thought Pawned sounded more amusing
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[14:51] <Lucasbuck> hi, sorry, work called ...
[14:51] <Lucasbuck> im based in london
[14:51] <Lucasbuck> i read on your website most launches happen in cambridge?
[14:52] <eroomde> that's often the case because it has a lot of active flyers
[14:52] <eroomde> but people launch from all over the place
[14:52] <Lucasbuck> oh right, thats cool
[14:52] <gonzo_> and they have a permenant NOTAM
[14:52] <eroomde> in the early days most of the fliers were at the university and it was convenient because it wasn't near any flight paths
[14:53] <daveake> I usually launch from my home in West Berks, but otherwise Cambs
[14:53] <Lucasbuck> makes sense, yes i spied the CAA application form for NOTAM
[14:53] <Lucasbuck> that looked 'fun'
[14:53] <daveake> It's easy enough
[14:53] <eroomde> that's a new thing too
[14:54] <eroomde> used to be you'd just have to fire off an email but there seems to be more process now that more people are doing it
[14:54] <eroomde> which is fine
[14:54] <daveake> I keep it on file and just change the date/time for each new launch
[14:55] <Lucasbuck> cool
[14:55] <Lucasbuck> i would love to come along to any launch, just to see how all the non computery bits work
[14:56] <daveake> Add yourself to the mailing list, if you haven't already
[14:56] <Lucasbuck> on it
[14:56] <daveake> New launches get posted there
[14:56] <Lucasbuck> awesome
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[14:57] <daveake> I'm sure you'd be welcome to any launch other than the commercial ones
[14:57] <Lucasbuck> that would be great. im more than willing to pitch in if you need an extra vehicle / pair of hands
[14:58] <Lucasbuck> all that jazz
[14:58] <daveake> If you have a tracking setup in the car (aerial / receiver / laptop) you'd be especially welcome!
[14:59] <eroomde> but welcome without anyway :)
[14:59] <daveake> Indeed
[14:59] <Lucasbuck> none im afraid
[14:59] <daveake> The chases range from a few miles to 200 or so
[14:59] <Lucasbuck> im less radio comms and more computer / electronicy
[14:59] <daveake> My closest was 10 miles; furthest landed near Bruges in Belgium
[14:59] <Lucasbuck> holy crap :D
[14:59] <Lucasbuck> return to sender stamped on top?
[15:00] <daveake> Oh, some have managed a lot further than that!
[15:00] <daveake> Retrieved by a Belgian HABber
[15:00] <Lucasbuck> thats cool
[15:00] <daveake> I did chase but was in the chunnel when it landed
[15:00] <Lucasbuck> hah
[15:01] <daveake> Only had telemetry down to about 24km IIRC
[15:01] <daveake> So I thought the chances of finding it were low, so we just went to Bruges for the day
[15:01] <daveake> Then someone here calculated what turned out to be a pretty accurate landing position
[15:02] <daveake> and we commissioned a local-ish HABber to go try and find it
[15:02] <daveake> Which, amazingly, he did
[15:02] <Lucasbuck> thats great
[15:02] <daveake> Good job the batteries were big enough to last 40 hours or so!
[15:02] <Lucasbuck> do you always use radio comms to broadcast location
[15:02] <eroomde> Lucasbuck: have you come across the landing rpedictor yet?
[15:02] <Lucasbuck> or do you rely on gps / sms and stuf flike that
[15:02] <eroomde> it's a wonderful tool
[15:02] <Lucasbuck> not yet!
[15:02] <daveake> I, and almost everyone else in the UK, uses radio
[15:02] <eroomde> habhub.org/predict
[15:02] <Lucasbuck> looking
[15:02] <eroomde> radio gives us the advantage of a position fix every 10s
[15:03] <daveake> I've used a GSM/GPS backup a couple of times
[15:03] <Lucasbuck> i was thinking of slapping a phone in there as a brain, and then usb to arduino for extra sensors
[15:03] <Lucasbuck> and then write an app for the phone to grap gsp and altometer etc
[15:03] <eroomde> whereas a lot of the other methods like gps/gsm cut out above a certain altitude, gps (the right gps)+radio gives us fixes for the entire flight
[15:03] <Lucasbuck> @ 'ground' level send sms or mobile data connect to a web api
[15:03] <Lucasbuck> which is being pushed gps data by the phone
[15:03] <eroomde> the gps on an android phone is very likely to cut out at 18km
[15:03] <Lucasbuck> yeah i dont need it all the way
[15:04] <Lucasbuck> just when its back down
[15:04] <WillDuckworth> daveake - where are the six stages of hab again?
[15:04] <gonzo_> also you don't want to fly anything that you are not prepared to lose
[15:04] <Lucasbuck> that predictor is awesome
[15:04] <Lucasbuck> yeah totally agreed, im expecting it to land in the ocean
[15:04] <Lucasbuck> :)
[15:04] <daveake> http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CGYQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fgroups.google.com%2Fgroup%2Fukhas%2Fbrowse_thread%2Fthread%2F2e4b5e13ac12e4bf&ei=-vMXULq4F8qa0QXo44HYCg&usg=AFQjCNHp4a4-rN3gumUqH2J2HAQe5Rauiw&sig2=wHohCWowWejtto6QGty09g
[15:04] <eroomde> the nice thing about the predicotr is that we have in integrated into the online tracking system
[15:04] <Lucasbuck> thats great
[15:04] <daveake> I hit stage "5" 2 weeks ago :D
[15:04] <eroomde> so every time you get a new fix from the balloon, the predictor will re-run the landing prediction
[15:05] <eroomde> and the in-flight predictions are usually much more acurate than ones done in advance
[15:05] <Lucasbuck> awesome
[15:05] <Lucasbuck> theres a webapi to push your data to for the predictor?
[15:05] <eroomde> so the really big advantage of having a radio tracker is that you can get landing predictions right after the balloon has burst, and try and get to the landing spot in time
[15:05] <eroomde> yes there is
[15:05] <Lucasbuck> thats great
[15:06] <Lucasbuck> theis really is an awesome tool
[15:06] <daveake> Even landing in the sea isn't necessarily the end, as some people here will attest
[15:06] <daveake> e.g. http://www.daveakerman.com/?p=220
[15:07] <daveake> ^^ saved by radio
[15:07] <daveake> and the wind
[15:07] <daveake> and the tide
[15:07] <eroomde> ave a read of this page to see the overall tracking system we've put together
[15:07] <eroomde> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:tracking_guide
[15:08] <eroomde> the 'Computer' bit is probably the more relevent section to read at this point
[15:08] <gonzo_> for me that tracking network is the most ompressive thing. You can get really involved (edge of your seat stuff sometimes) in other peoples launches
[15:08] <Darkside> impressive*
[15:09] <Darkside> i read that as 'opressive' first :P
[15:09] <daveake> lol
[15:09] <eroomde> i like it too
[15:09] <eroomde> it evolved in the wonderful way of hacks
[15:09] <gonzo_> that's impressive when you have a mouthfull of twix
[15:09] <eroomde> we were doing nova 7 out of cambridge
[15:09] <eroomde> jcoxon was living in his flat in london
[15:09] <daveake> It is great when you're in a bouncy chase car trying to figure out where to go, and you get messages like "Turn right in 200 metres Dave", or even "Silly bugger missed the turn!"
[15:10] <eroomde> he was going to try and listen to it but had to have his laptop in some awkward position on the balcony
[15:10] <eroomde> to get the antenna in the right place
[15:10] <eroomde> and didn't want to physically be there himself
[15:10] <eroomde> so it got a little irc robot to grab the tail of the fldigi log, and print it to the channel
[15:10] <eroomde> which would either be a string or a bit of corrupted string or whatever
[15:11] <gonzo_> and instructions to dave of where the best chippie was whilst waiting for the HAB to come back in on the tide
[15:11] <eroomde> and then natrium saw this and threw something together to put the point on a map
[15:11] <eroomde> which became spacenear.us/tracker
[15:11] <Lucasbuck> this is some great ingo
[15:11] <Lucasbuck> info
[15:11] <Lucasbuck> thanks for the links
[15:11] <eroomde> and it took off from there
[15:12] <Darkside> eroomde: you should do a 'history of UK HABBing' talk
[15:12] <Randomskk> and now it's over a hundred people with radios running programs to upload telemetry to a central server, thousands of lines of python and a ton of various web tools :P
[15:12] <eroomde> it might be useful, i have been tempted
[15:12] <Lucasbuck> where are you guys based ?
[15:12] <Randomskk> eroomde: s/talk/book
[15:12] <eroomde> you do get a lot of 'i have an awesome idea - why don't we try this?'
[15:12] <daveake> Yeah, it's worth saying, more than once, that these days we have it easy, and those of us (like me) who are relatively new to the game owe a debt of gratitude to the people that started the hobby off and who built the wonderful systems we all rely on.
[15:13] <eroomde> to which the answer is often 'yeah did that once, didn't really work' or 'tried it a bit but my maths wasn't up to doing anything useful with the data' or whtever
[15:13] <eroomde> it would be good to write something down so people can at least have a springboard to see who to ask if something in the past has been done that's similar to what they want to do
[15:14] <eroomde> i might have a go
[15:14] <eroomde> prose is good, i can drink red wine and still do prose adequately
[15:14] <eroomde> it's code that suffers
[15:14] <daveake> lol
[15:14] <Darkside> haha
[15:14] <Darkside> ok, time for me to sleep, 00:44 here
[15:14] <Darkside> night all
[15:14] <eroomde> nn Darkside
[15:14] <daveake> In my first job we had a bar on site
[15:14] <daveake> Friday lunch was always well watered
[15:15] <daveake> Monday morning was spent deleting the crap code that got written Friday afternoon
[15:15] <eroomde> yep :)
[15:15] <daveake> "Who wroite this shit?" ... "Oh, I did"
[15:16] <eroomde> when we were working on our esa drop vehicle, there would be a lot of late nights, and quite often we'd pop across the road to Browns for an expensive lager or two and some bar snacks before starting
[15:16] <eroomde> it was never a good idea, we'd only do garbage
[15:17] <eroomde> in the end just did menial manual work after drinking, like laying out cables or packing chutes
[15:17] <daveake> Alcohol --> helps you play darts or snooker. Doesn't help you code.
[15:17] <daveake> wise decision
[15:17] <eroomde> Lucasbuck: ed cunningham, who is occassionally on here and is part of the cambridge uni spaceflight group, has done a lot of work on android as a balloon flight computer
[15:18] <eroomde> ejc74 i think is his irc nick
[15:18] <eroomde> http://www.flickr.com/photos/cuspaceflight/sets/72157627669867814/
[15:19] <eroomde> tht was both sms and radio - he and Randomskk wrigged up a radio to the audio-out of the phone, to 'play' telemetry strings over the radio
[15:19] <eroomde> which could then be decoded by our ground network system
[15:26] <kokey> what kind of modulation did they use for that?
[15:26] <Randomskk> rtty still
[15:27] <Randomskk> but, FM
[15:27] <Randomskk> just because it was easier
[15:27] <Randomskk> danielsaul is actually working on doing it with SSB by putting an AM demodulator on the audio output of a phone
[15:27] <Randomskk> we just connected the audio direct to the input of the NTX2, so got audio FM output
[15:27] <kokey> I remember when I first got interested in it, I bought two cheap ISM band radios by goodmans
[15:28] <eroomde> you'd have to remove the ac coupling capactitor from the output of the dac inside the phone to get 50hz dc level modulation working properly, i think
[15:28] <kokey> and then hacked up some code in C to generate dual tones, and other code to use the goertzel algorithm to detect those dual tones
[15:28] <eroomde> and even then the dc performance of cheap audio dacs is not that convincing, often
[15:29] <kokey> it didn't work really well
[15:29] <Randomskk> eroomde: AM modulated onto a 5kHz carrier
[15:29] <eroomde> just curious
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[15:29] <Randomskk> out of phone
[15:29] <kokey> i thought I'd do something like DTMF with some error correction
[15:29] <Randomskk> -> AM demod -> NTX2
[15:29] <kokey> using Golay for FEC
[15:30] <eroomde> Randomskk: ah that's a nice way round it
[15:30] <Randomskk> well. 'nice'
[15:31] <Randomskk> danielsaul's playing with it
[15:31] <Randomskk> dunno if he's got it working
[15:31] <eroomde> it's a way round it then
[15:31] <Randomskk> I think he found the am demod was trickier in practice than just a diode
[15:31] <Randomskk> I think he's using an opamp atm
[15:31] <eroomde> hrm but wouldn't 'AM' audio be dc-balanced?
[15:31] <kokey> I wanted to get DTMF working, and then move on using phase shift keying over FM
[15:31] <eroomde> ah right, not if u use a diode
[15:31] <Randomskk> yea exactly
[15:33] <danielsaul> I'm doing what?
[15:33] <danielsaul> Oh
[15:34] <kokey> anyway, my initial experiments weren't great and I drove my girlfriend mad playing loud DTMF
[15:34] <danielsaul> Works really well... after spending an afternoon finding the right resistors and cap values and adding an opamp
[15:34] <Randomskk> oh cool
[15:34] <Randomskk> there you go then eroomde
[15:34] <danielsaul> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/rf2b7e5mpwzxnsv/ZAOM83xDee#/ << Photos of the phone & NTX2
[15:35] <eroomde> kokey: rtty gets properly into your brain too
[15:35] <eroomde> i've seen grown men weep
[15:35] <daveake> lol
[15:35] <daveake> I've heard it in the car A/C
[15:35] <Randomskk> I get periods of hearing it in white noise
[15:35] <eroomde> or wake up in the night suddenly shouting 'i hear a signal!'
[15:35] <Randomskk> especially after sleepness nights working on payloads
[15:37] <eroomde> nowadays my nightmare noise is valves clonkin in and off and throaty gas escaping noises
[15:37] <eroomde> as engines fail to light properly
[15:39] <Upu> I hear RTTY in white noise now
[15:39] <Upu> HABittanus
[15:39] <Randomskk> human brains are just too good at picking patterns out of noise
[15:39] <eroomde> if i got into a house where rtty has been in the past, i still hear it
[15:39] <Randomskk> haha
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[15:40] <eroomde> sometimes two little twin girls appear in the hallway infront of me and ask me if i want to help them debug their rtty code
[15:40] <daveake> "Mark" and "Space" are strange names for girls
[15:40] <oh7lzb> A little RTTY contest has done that too, can hear RTTY everywhere for a few days
[15:41] <eroomde> daveake: i was once helping some students out with a practice exam
[15:41] <eroomde> i kept making reference to an exam paper with the right answers
[15:41] <eroomde> eventually one of the students protested 'who the hell is Mark Scheme and why is he so damn clever?'
[15:41] <eroomde> it took him a second
[15:41] <daveake> lol
[15:46] <Lucasbuck> < eroomde> Lucasbuck: ed cunningham, who is occassionally on here and is part of the cambridge uni spaceflight group, has done a lot of work on android as a balloon flight computer
[15:46] <Lucasbuck> thats greatr
[15:48] <eroomde> so yep, the moral is that you can both do android and use the online live map stuff and radio and us (as people who listen to other's flights) all in one system if you would like
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[15:49] <Randomskk> you could even make the android upload to the web system over its net connection (when available)
[15:49] <Randomskk> in addition to transmitting out of a radio for ground-side receivers to pick up on and relay
[15:49] <danielsaul> Which is what I'm doing
[15:50] <Randomskk> (but I would not do it /instead of/ as a lot of the time the phone won't have network coverage, especially lying on the ground in the middle of some fields)
[15:50] <fsphil> I've an old openmoko phone, could make a tracker out of that
[15:50] <fsphil> finally a use for it!
[15:50] <Randomskk> (coverage at ground level is a lot worse than at the height you hold your phone, for instance, and the middle of fields are pretty bad)
[15:50] <Randomskk> fsphil: hehe nice
[15:50] <Lucasbuck> haha, ive got an openmoko kicking about somewhere :(
[15:50] <Lucasbuck> ok, so radio is a must
[15:51] <Lucasbuck> no problem, i'll wang one on the arduino
[15:51] <daveake> Last time I flew a GSM backup, you could hear the familiar GSM blips and bleeps on the video soundtrack as the module it re-established the connection. This was as it landed in a tree :)
[15:51] <Randomskk> yea, they're highly recommended
[15:51] <danielsaul> Wish I was using android... about ready to throw this phone out the window
[15:51] <Randomskk> having GSM as a backup is really nice
[15:51] <Randomskk> and has saved the day a few times
[15:51] <Randomskk> but having a radio onboard is really helpful
[15:51] <daveake> So I don't have great faith that it'd usefully connect whilst airborne
[15:51] <fsphil> what is it danielsaul?
[15:51] <danielsaul> windows phone
[15:51] <fsphil> ah
[15:51] <Randomskk> and typically lets you get pretty close to the thing while it's on the way down
[15:52] <fsphil> I feel your pain
[15:52] <eroomde> it is also hopefully less likely to suffer from not being able to handle minus signs correctly, so the radio might be telling you it's on the other side of the country to where it actually is
[15:52] <eroomde> which has happened before
[15:52] <Lucasbuck> i can code "ok" for android, my interface skills blow, but system stuff checking network connectoins, sending sms / gps data / making phone calls all that jazz ive got down
[15:52] <Lucasbuck> http etc
[15:52] <daveake> The other useful thing about GSM is that it should give you the landing spot before the chase car gets to the area and starts picking up the radio telemetry again
[15:53] <Lucasbuck> yeah, i was hoping for either sms'ed gps co-ords or mobile data dialup to a wbeapi
[15:53] <Lucasbuck> web*
[15:53] <Lucasbuck> do you guys put any or your code up on github?
[15:53] <danielsaul> Thats the other thing I hate about windows phone: can't programmatically send an sms
[15:53] <Randomskk> yea we do
[15:53] <Randomskk> there's tons of code
[15:53] <Randomskk> check http://ukhas.org.uk to get started
[15:53] <Randomskk> which also has code
[15:53] <Randomskk> but then most people's project pages might link to some of their code
[15:54] <daveake> What I did was SMS the telemetry string to a phone at home, with that phone hooked up to a PC running a small gateway program to the usual server (habitat) for the map
[15:57] <Lucasbuck> great
[15:57] <Lucasbuck> cool
[15:57] <Lucasbuck> yeah atm ive set up kannel (sms gateway) on my rasp pi
[15:57] <Lucasbuck> thats sitting next to me atm with some dirt ebay usb dongle
[15:58] <Lucasbuck> but i could easily hack that back end and grab sms inbound data and push it to an API
[15:58] <daveake> It's pretty straightforward to do
[15:58] <Lucasbuck> yeah thats great
[15:58] <Randomskk> I enjoy hearing it called an API
[15:59] <Randomskk> not that it's had to push to or anything
[15:59] <daveake> lol
[16:00] <eroomde> your baby becoming all grown up Randomskk
[16:00] <Randomskk> nearly ready for 0.3
[16:00] <Randomskk> and if that works it's practically stable
[16:00] <Randomskk> might not have a 0.4 before we hit 1.0
[16:02] <Randomskk> there's even documentation for the schema/api now
[16:02] <Randomskk> ;o
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[16:03] <danielsaul> Randomskk: and prettyness ;)
[16:03] <Randomskk> that too ;)
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[16:07] <KT5TK> nigelvh: Two PCBs are on the way to you
[16:07] <nigelvh> Oh! Thank you very much!
[16:08] <nigelvh> Do you have a final parts list so I can populate them?
[16:08] <KT5TK> Note I made a mistake with one voltage regulator
[16:09] <KT5TK> Wait, I'll make the Mouser list public.
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[16:09] <KT5TK> http://kt5tk.tkrahn.com/downloads/PecanNut/photos/dry_test/wrong_TPS77350.jpg
[16:10] <nigelvh> Which regulator is that?
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[16:13] <KT5TK> https://www.mouser.com/ProjectManager/ProjectDetail.aspx?AccessID=dcedd1698f
[16:13] <KT5TK> It's the regulator for the TX amplifier
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[16:14] <KT5TK> In addition to the Mouser list You'll need the Analog Devices ICs. You can probably get samples from AD or buy them at Digikey
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[16:17] <KT5TK> Plan is to replace the TPS77350 regulator with a TPS76633, but then pins 3+4 need to get patched (swapped)
[16:17] <nigelvh> Yeah, I tend to go to digikey for the ICs.
[16:18] <nigelvh> So it looks like maybe the TPS77350 is smaller than the footprint?
[16:18] <nigelvh> Is that the issue?
[16:18] <KT5TK> Yes, I must have stolen the wrong eagle library somewhere...
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[16:19] <nigelvh> Ok. Sounds good.
[16:20] <nigelvh> Looks like you stuck with the single band filter.
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[16:20] <chrisstubbs> hey guys
[16:21] <KT5TK> Yes, I placed the PCB order before we discussed multiband options.
[16:22] <KT5TK> chrisstubbs: Howdy!
[16:22] <chrisstubbs> how you doing KT5TK ?
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[16:23] <KT5TK> Worried about my own mistakes I made on my PCB. Else I'm fine.
[16:23] Action: fsphil is hungry and thinking of heading home for nom
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[16:25] <KT5TK> nigelvh: You'll probably get almost everything at Digikey. Just make sure that the inductors are good quality.
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[16:38] <nigelvh> Sorry there KT5TK. Internet is being flaky at the office today.
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[16:48] <griffonbot> Received email: Steve Aerospace "Re: [UKHAS] Ofcom position on use of Amateur licence to remote
[17:03] <Burninate> What's a standard payload for HAB?
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[17:06] <SamSilver> a fluffy toy is becoming a new fad
[17:06] <jonsowman> http://ukhas.org.uk/general:beginners_guide_to_high_altitude_ballooning
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[17:06] Nick change: nigelvh_ -> nigelvh
[17:06] <Burninate> thanks
[17:07] <KT5TK_QRL> nigelvh_ You'll also need a uBlox MAX-6Q module. Probably the best to get from Upu
[17:07] <nigelvh> I probably won't populate the GPS stuff.
[17:07] <nigelvh> I'll likely just do the atmega and the radio bits
[17:09] <Burninate> nagging curiosity: Why doesn't styrofoam burst in a soft vacuum?
[17:10] <Burninate> It's a closed-cell foam full of 1000 millibar air
[17:10] <Upu> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:materials?s[]=open&s[]=cell
[17:11] <Burninate> doesn't help me
[17:11] <jonsowman> how do i make an irssi shortcut for "it's on the wiki"
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[17:18] Nick change: Guest95416 -> nigelvh
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[17:32] <Gadget-Mac> KT5TK: Nice board
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[17:37] <chrisstubbs> my cats name is misty
[17:39] <chrisstubbs> wrong channel sorry
[17:39] <jonsowman> good to know
[17:40] <nigelvh> Indeed.
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[17:41] <Lunar_Lander_> hello
[17:42] <nigelvh> Howdy Lunar
[17:42] <Lunar_Lander_> hello nigel
[17:42] <Lunar_Lander_> how are you?
[17:42] <nigelvh> Well. Yourself?
[17:43] <Lunar_Lander_> same here
[17:44] <Lunar_Lander_> just researching how to connect the microSD breakout to arduino
[17:44] <Lunar_Lander_> I can identify MOSI, MISO and SCK
[17:44] <nigelvh> Good plan
[17:44] <nigelvh> Add in SS, GND, and +V and you're set.
[17:44] <Lunar_Lander_> yeah I am looking for SS
[17:44] <Lunar_Lander_> the breakout has CD and CS
[17:45] <nigelvh> CS
[17:45] <griffonbot> @daveake: First video from the Scouts In Space flight - http://t.co/cy1zCIwc #UKHAS [http://twitter.com/daveake/status/230358651880230913]
[17:46] <nigelvh> CD is card detect, and CS is chip select AKA SS
[17:46] <domlin> Chris I thought your cat was sent up on a balloon?
[17:47] <Lunar_Lander_> ah
[17:47] <Lunar_Lander_> thanks nigelvh
[17:47] <nigelvh> No problem
[17:47] <Lunar_Lander_> we run OpenLog but I want to familiarize with the normal SD and microSD too
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[17:48] <nigelvh> Sounds reasonable
[17:48] <Lunar_Lander_> yea
[17:48] <Lunar_Lander_> also I thought: Can Arduino control something like a 12 V windscreen wiper motor?
[17:48] <Lunar_Lander_> using a H-Bridge or so?
[17:49] <nigelvh> Yeah, that's an option. Or a relay
[17:49] <Lunar_Lander_> yea
[17:49] <Lunar_Lander_> that's not for the balloon but I had a number of ideas on the way home
[17:49] <Lunar_Lander_> xD
[17:50] <Lunar_Lander_> for example in one of the papers for an atmospheric electricity sensor for a radiosonde was a device in the circuit diagram that looked like a LED shone into a photocell on a different part of the circuit
[17:50] <Lunar_Lander_> now I know that this means an optoisolatore
[17:50] <Lunar_Lander_> -e
[17:51] <nigelvh> Yep
[17:51] <nigelvh> They can be useful.
[17:52] <nigelvh> Though I always have to remind myself that it doesn't act like a relay where it doesn't matter the direction of current. You have to treat it like a transistor.
[17:52] <Lunar_Lander_> yea
[17:52] <Lunar_Lander_> but to be stupid
[17:52] <Lunar_Lander_> the one on sparkfun looks like an IC from the outside
[17:52] <Lunar_Lander_> would there be LEDs and photodiodes inside if you broke that open?
[17:53] <Lunar_Lander_> or are there solid-state equivalents to these things
[17:54] <Lunar_Lander_> I ask because I once saw someone hitting a atmega328 or so with a hammer
[17:54] <Lunar_Lander_> and inside you couldn't really see something like a structure if I remember correctly
[17:55] <nigelvh> Yeah, they look like ICs, and I've never broken one open, but I'm going to guess that it's not going to be terribly recognizable.
[17:55] <Lunar_Lander_> yea
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[18:07] <fsphil> "Show me to your balloon" http://www.flickr.com/photos/daveake/7673106012/in/set-72157630812750752
[18:08] <nigelvh> haha
[18:08] <fsphil> that's a great photo
[18:09] <nigelvh> "Yes you fool. This will fit puuuurfectly into my plan to take over the world!!!"
[18:11] <fsphil> ah, someone else had my idea of multiple gopros: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0-ODUb7QRw
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[18:13] <nigelvh> Here's another: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rd7KTeUXLJk
[18:13] <fsphil> goes a bit wibbly after burst
[18:14] <nigelvh> Yes. Also, all the bits were really cool.
[18:15] <fsphil> yea
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[18:27] <Lunar_Lander_> does anyone know about the regulations to build a driftsonde and put it into a river where it signals data back?
[18:33] <fsphil> nope :)
[18:33] <KT5TK_QRL> Don't know too much about regulations, but we played with a buoy before:
[18:33] <KT5TK_QRL> http://tkrahn.dyndns.org/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=4363
[18:33] <KT5TK_QRL> It's a lot of fun. There as an APRS transmitter on board.
[18:34] <Lunar_Lander_> thanks
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[18:40] <fsphil> awww, http://habhub.org//predict/#!/uuid=9096f2bc228bc905c939e304febb460a868c5b8f
[18:41] <nigelvh> aww?
[18:41] <fsphil> I can't launch :(
[18:42] <fsphil> and it's ideal conditions
[18:42] <KT5TK_QRL> Certainly regulations are not as restrictive as for airborne vehicles. Each country will have their own regs. Where would you plan to let the sonde float? In rivers it'll probably get stuck quite early.
[18:42] <nigelvh> Yes, that does look like a nice prediction.
[18:44] <KT5TK_QRL> It looks pretty bad for a trans atlantic attempt though ;)
[18:44] <nigelvh> True.
[18:45] <fsphil> good for an attempt here, the winds above 20km are still heading est
[18:45] <fsphil> west*
[18:47] <number10> what, no NOTAM fsphil ?
[18:48] Nick change: Laurenceb__ -> Laurenceb_
[18:48] <Laurenceb_> any chemistry gurus here?
[18:49] <KT5TK_QRL> I may help with biochemistry
[18:49] <KT5TK_QRL> But inorganics may be harder
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[18:50] <Laurenceb_> why do pH sensors use 3 electrodes?
[18:50] <Laurenceb_> is my question :P
[18:52] <KT5TK_QRL> If my grey brain cells are right it's because you need a reference electrode.
[18:53] <fsphil> not a peep number10
[18:53] <Laurenceb_> ok
[18:53] <Laurenceb_> so what are the other 2?
[18:54] <KT5TK_QRL> Hmm, my pH meter in the lab has only 2 wires for the pH electrode itself. There is a PTC temperature sensor though for compensating temperature effects.
[18:55] <Laurenceb_> interesting
[18:55] <KT5TK_QRL> Which electrode are you looking at?
[18:56] <daveake> all the circuits I can find use 2 wires
[18:56] <Laurenceb_> http://www.hach.com/gli-encapsulated-ryton-differential-ph-sensor-with-internal-preamplifier-and-glass-electrode-5-wire-10-ft-cable-/product-details?id=7639990573
[18:56] <Laurenceb_> ok
[18:56] <Laurenceb_> seems its only used on a few
[18:57] <KT5TK_QRL> Check out https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10972 for a simple wiring diagram.
[18:57] <Laurenceb_> so what are the electrodes used in the two electrode version?
[18:57] <Laurenceb_> Pt and Ag/AgCl ?
[18:59] <KT5TK_QRL> The pH electrode above ^ ^ has a 300 ohm NTC which accounts for 2 wires already.
[19:00] <number10> thats a shame fsphil
[19:00] <KT5TK_QRL> the "Internal Preamplifier" may also need power supply
[19:01] <daveake> fsphil Add "with Dave Akerman" to the application; that worked for the scout leader ;)
[19:02] <griffonbot> Received email: "Re: [UKHAS] Re: MONDO launch..."
[19:02] <fsphil> I read about that daveake lol
[19:03] <daveake> Was a surprise to me!
[19:03] <Upu> famous dave
[19:03] <daveake> lol
[19:03] <daveake> Both launch date and site got changed last Wednesday
[19:03] <number10> or just change you name to Dave
[19:04] <Upu> Next week you'll be parachuting with the Queen
[19:04] <daveake> That was Steve
[19:04] <number10> what in that dress?
[19:04] <number10> ;)
[19:04] <daveake> with not as
[19:04] <daveake> :)
[19:04] <fsphil> that's a different kind of queen
[19:05] <number10> steve doesnt look the type for that
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[19:05] <daveake> It was raining Queens that night
[19:06] <Upu> you think number10 ?
[19:06] <Upu> http://www.flickr.com/photos/16828840@N07/4205366555/in/photostream
[19:06] <Lunar_Lander_> hello Upu
[19:06] <Upu> hey lunar
[19:07] <Lunar_Lander_> how are you today?
[19:07] <Upu> watching Horizon from last night
[19:07] <number10> you'll be in trouble Upu
[19:07] <daveake> I've never seen Steve stirred let alone shaken
[19:07] <Upu> so begging for a photoshop job
[19:07] <Upu> anyway afk
[19:07] <daveake> Ah. The Mars prog. Up to Horizon standards.
[19:08] <fsphil> over dramatic?
[19:08] <Upu> totally
[19:08] <fsphil> repeating the same bits over and over again?
[19:08] <KT5TK_QRL> Laurenceb http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_electrode
[19:08] <KT5TK_QRL> The reference electrode is usually internally wired.
[19:08] <Upu> sort of
[19:08] <daveake> yes
[19:08] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[19:08] <daveake> and yes
[19:08] <fsphil> yep, seen it :)
[19:18] <Lunar_Lander_> Upu, do you have a moment?
[19:24] <Laurenceb_> KT5TK_QRL:ok
[19:24] <Laurenceb_> complex
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[19:30] <costyn> Upu: new Horizon episode?... woot
[19:31] <costyn> lot of 'Truth about ...' episodes lately
[19:32] <Lunar_Lander_> hello costyn
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[19:32] <costyn> Lunar_Lander_: hiya
[19:32] <Lunar_Lander_> OHHHHHH
[19:33] <Lunar_Lander_> A mother of three from Aberdare, South Wales, who suffered a heart attack from the stress of lying awake but helpless during a hospital operation has won her legal battle for compensation. June Blacker, 45, who is expected to receive more than f100,000, said that she felt the scalpel cut into her during the operation to sterilize her. She was so terrified she suffered a cardiac arrest 15 minutes into the operation and watched as
[19:33] <Lunar_Lander_> doctors fought to restart her heart. (The British Weekly)
[19:33] <costyn> how did she prove it?
[19:34] <Lunar_Lander_> good question
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[19:51] <Upu> back now Lunar_Lander_
[19:52] <Lunar_Lander_> yeah
[19:52] <Upu> yes costyn about the Mars landing next week
[19:52] <Upu> ask away
[19:52] <Upu> you know if you ask on here many people will be able to answer
[19:52] <Lunar_Lander_> yea
[19:52] <Lunar_Lander_> on a project without GPS
[19:52] <Upu> ok
[19:52] <Lunar_Lander_> how can I get the current time to like save that to an SD card?
[19:53] <costyn> Lunar_Lander_: real time clock
[19:53] <daveake> Is it connected to a network?
[19:53] <jonsowman> DS1307 is the bog standard one
[19:53] <Lunar_Lander_> no I wanted to make it a datalogger sort of project
[19:53] <daveake> If so time server; if not RTC
[19:53] <Lunar_Lander_> thanks
[19:54] <Upu> see :)
[19:54] <Lunar_Lander_> yeah I can see the DS1307 on sparkfun
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[19:54] <Lunar_Lander_> it's I2C it looks like
[19:54] <jonsowman> it's really not very accurate
[19:54] <Lunar_Lander_> OHHHH
[19:54] <costyn> Lunar_Lander_: http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/seeeduino-stalker-v2-p-727.html?cPath=132_133
[19:54] <Upu> You can use GPS to set the real time clock or you can even receive the timing signals
[19:54] <jonsowman> the DS3234 is much better
[19:54] <Lunar_Lander_> yeah
[19:54] <Upu> someone did a shield for it
[19:54] <Lunar_Lander_> thanks costyn
[19:54] <Upu> if timing has to be super accurate
[19:54] <Lunar_Lander_> yea
[19:54] <Lunar_Lander_> jonsowman, but that is SPI
[19:55] <jonsowman> is that a problem?
[19:55] <jonsowman> i prefer SPI to I2C normally
[19:55] <Upu> http://spuder.wordpress.com/2010/05/26/arduino-atomic-clock/
[19:55] <jonsowman> it's faster and easier to debug, and the AVR SPI hardware is nicer to use than the I2C periph
[19:55] <mattbrejza> ds3234 +1
[19:55] <Lunar_Lander_> yea
[19:55] <Lunar_Lander_> but I have the SD card too
[19:55] <mattbrejza> there is a i2c version though
[19:55] <Upu> http://hackaday.com/2011/12/11/chrono-tomic-shield-helps-your-arduino-keep-perfect-time/ <- there
[19:55] <mattbrejza> Lunar_Lander_: spi can share the same bus
[19:56] <Lunar_Lander_> OK
[19:56] <jonsowman> the whole point of a bus, in fact
[19:56] <mattbrejza> but you need sperate CS pins for each device
[19:56] <Lunar_Lander_> thanks Upu
[19:56] <mattbrejza> USB jonsowman ? :P
[19:56] <Lunar_Lander_> xD
[19:56] <Lunar_Lander_> OK let's see
[19:56] <mattbrejza> i suppose its a logical rather then physical bus
[19:56] <Lunar_Lander_> assume that my SD card has the CS pin on 9
[19:56] <jonsowman> mattbrejza: yes
[19:56] <jonsowman> indeed
[19:56] <Lunar_Lander_> then the clock can be on pin 8?
[19:57] <jonsowman> Lunar_Lander_: any digital IO will work
[19:57] <mattbrejza> i dont know the pins on top of my head
[19:57] <Lunar_Lander_> yea
[19:57] <daveake> Lunar_Lander Wrong question
[19:57] <mattbrejza> ive put rtcs on balloons before, never got used
[19:57] <mattbrejza> you sure you eed one?
[19:57] <daveake> You connect the SPI pins (MISO / MOSI / CLK) to all devices
[19:57] <Lunar_Lander_> yes
[19:57] <Lunar_Lander_> mattbrejza, this won't be a balloon but a stationary system
[19:57] <daveake> Then you choose any spare I/O pins you like for the SS or CS lines
[19:58] <jonsowman> the AVR SPI hardware doesn't handle CS/SS for you, so you are responsible for doing it yourself, so use whatever GPIO you want
[19:58] <mattbrejza> btw ds3232 is i2c
[19:58] <Lunar_Lander_> yea
[19:58] <mattbrejza> might be easier if you already have something i2c
[19:58] <Lunar_Lander_> https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10160
[19:58] <mattbrejza> less pins etc
[19:58] <daveake> So you pull the correct CS low, talk to that device, then pull it high
[19:58] <Lunar_Lander_> yea
[19:58] <daveake> Repeat for other devices
[19:58] <daveake> Just don't try and talk to 2 at once
[19:58] <mattbrejza> i tend to put a 1k device in series for each MISO to stop issues
[19:58] <Lunar_Lander_> ok
[19:58] <jonsowman> cry when everything's interrupt driven and ten things want to use the bus
[19:58] <Lunar_Lander_> yea
[19:58] <Lunar_Lander_> xD
[19:59] <daveake> :)
[19:59] <mattbrejza> mind you electronics seems to be indestructable these days
[19:59] <Lunar_Lander_> yes
[19:59] <mattbrejza> yea interrupt driven stuff on spi + sd card ends badly
[19:59] <Lunar_Lander_> well because when I went home today I had like so many ideas
[19:59] <jonsowman> mattbrejza: i can imagine
[19:59] <Lunar_Lander_> and then I thought I cnan build them
[19:59] <Lunar_Lander_> *can
[19:59] <Lunar_Lander_> and then I felt like I am getting experience
[19:59] <Lunar_Lander_> while at the same time that solder smell still was in my nose
[19:59] <Lunar_Lander_> xD
[20:00] <mattbrejza> i intentionally bitbanged something rather then sharing with sd card
[20:00] <daveake> Lunar You suffer from something I do. Too many ideas. Try and finish one before you start too many others :)
[20:00] <jonsowman> mattbrejza: desperate times..
[20:00] <Lunar_Lander_> yea
[20:00] <Lunar_Lander_> because besides the balloons there is another element to explore
[20:01] <Lunar_Lander_> and this one's named
[20:01] <Lunar_Lander_> WATER
[20:01] <Lunar_Lander_> xD
[20:01] <mattbrejza> radio comms is harder mind you
[20:01] <Lunar_Lander_> yea
[20:02] <Laurenceb_> KT5TK_QRL: ping
[20:02] <Laurenceb_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphate_buffered_saline
[20:02] <Laurenceb_> im trying to understand where the weak acid is
[20:13] Action: Laurenceb_ is trying to design some nutty chemistry stuff
[20:13] <Laurenceb_> i want a hydrogen generator that only produces hydrogen gas, and doesnt have electrolyte pH change
[20:13] <Lunar_Lander_> because besides the balloons there is another element to explore
[20:13] <Lunar_Lander_> and this one's named
[20:13] <Lunar_Lander_> WATER
[20:14] <mattbrejza> hydrogen generator for lifting balloons? or just because?
[20:15] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb_: A hydrogen cylinder.
[20:15] Action: SpeedEvil cheats.
[20:15] <Laurenceb_> lol
[20:15] <Laurenceb_> its a blood flow sensor im thinking of
[20:15] <mattbrejza> er what :/
[20:16] <mattbrejza> well have fun with that
[20:16] Action: SpeedEvil again wishes someone would make a nice transcutaneous, or easily implantable tiny RFID style glucose meter.
[20:17] <Laurenceb_> hydrogen generator makes tiny amount of hydrogen
[20:18] <Laurenceb_> then its diffuses in, and platigmum electrode measures emf -> partial pressure of H2
[20:18] <Laurenceb_> *platignum
[20:18] <Laurenceb_> however you spell it
[20:18] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb_: why are you trying to H2 in blood?
[20:18] <Laurenceb_> hydrogen flux -> blood flow
[20:18] <mattbrejza> or if you screw it up ull blow someone up because you filled them with hydrogen
[20:18] <SpeedEvil> ...
[20:19] <mattbrejza> because blood is also full of oxygen...
[20:19] <SpeedEvil> So it's measuring diffusion out of the implant, and inferring flow from that?
[20:20] <SpeedEvil> that seems odd.
[20:21] <Laurenceb_> its a plaster
[20:21] <Laurenceb_> sticks onto the skin
[20:21] <Laurenceb_> generates H2 and measures H2 partial pressure
[20:22] <SpeedEvil> Ah
[20:22] <SpeedEvil> So it's to measure skin perfusion?
[20:22] <Laurenceb_> which i think you can do with a Pt and Ag electrode in agar with a buffer
[20:22] <Laurenceb_> yes
[20:22] <SpeedEvil> I vaguely remember that the skin has a nonzero transpiration of O2 or CO2.
[20:22] <Laurenceb_> EMF with zero current -> H2 pressure
[20:22] <SpeedEvil> - I don't remember which.
[20:22] <SpeedEvil> Which might do the same sort of thing.
[20:22] <Laurenceb_> current with Pt as -ive -> H2 gas
[20:23] <Laurenceb_> yes the top 1mm transpires O2
[20:23] <Laurenceb_> H2 diffuses better and isnt absorbed by haemoglobin
[20:23] <Laurenceb_> so its slightly better
[20:23] <SpeedEvil> So you're not confused by oxygenation of the blood?
[20:23] <Laurenceb_> also it isnt naturally present
[20:24] <Laurenceb_> and it relatively simple to measure using a Pt electrode emf
[20:24] <Laurenceb_> yes
[20:24] <SpeedEvil> thermal diffusivity?
[20:25] <SpeedEvil> Thoguh I guess that's hard because it will vary some with physiology.
[20:25] <Laurenceb_> thats muched up by temperature swings and highish thermal conductivity of tissue
[20:25] <Laurenceb_> yes
[20:25] <Laurenceb_> theres a scale factor
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[20:25] <Laurenceb_> beyong which perfusion exchange dominates over gas diffusion/conduction
[20:25] <SpeedEvil> you're trying to measure the perfusion of the very top of the skin?
[20:25] <Laurenceb_> for thermal it is ~1cm
[20:25] <Laurenceb_> for H2 its 1mm
[20:26] <Laurenceb_> so H2 can de done with a small sensor
[20:26] <Laurenceb_> thermal needs a ~5cm diameter block of foam on the skin
[20:26] <Laurenceb_> yes
[20:26] <SpeedEvil> I assume you've thought about optical + doppler )
[20:26] <SpeedEvil> :)
[20:27] <SpeedEvil> black people are a problem though.
[20:27] <Laurenceb_> yes - cant give you absolute flow
[20:27] <Laurenceb_> lol
[20:27] <Laurenceb_> works with nir
[20:27] <SpeedEvil> Thoguh I'm unsure what the spectra of the skin is in IR
[20:27] <SpeedEvil> ah
[20:27] <SpeedEvil> heated metal infused by hydrogen?
[20:28] <Laurenceb_> lol
[20:28] <Laurenceb_> its needs more hydrogen than that
[20:28] <SpeedEvil> Or does any emit at room temperature?
[20:28] <Laurenceb_> but not a lot
[20:28] <Laurenceb_> idont know
[20:28] <Laurenceb_> buffer would generate enough for a few days
[20:28] <Laurenceb_> with a 500um thick agar sheet
[20:28] <SpeedEvil> I wonder about slices of H2 storage cells for cars. Sort of like NiMH batteries.
[20:29] <SpeedEvil> But that's probably no better than a little can with h2 in
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[20:29] <Laurenceb_> then flexi pcb with electrodes and plaster over the top
[20:29] <Laurenceb_> cant get much simpler than that
[20:30] <Laurenceb_> its just that pH has to be stable or Pt H2 reference goes mental
[20:30] <SpeedEvil> Lots of buffering?
[20:31] <Laurenceb_> well the buffer supplies the H+ which becomes H2
[20:31] <Laurenceb_> at the Pt electrode - at the Ag electrode Ag -> AgCl
[20:32] <SpeedEvil> I mean lots of bicarbonate or something more suitable to keep the PH constant
[20:32] <Laurenceb_> more buffer -> more H2 -> longer life
[20:32] <Laurenceb_> phosphate buffer would last 1.5days i think
[20:33] <Laurenceb_> and is Na/KCl based so can supply the Cl to the Ag electrode
[20:33] <SpeedEvil> On another random topic - loving my nexus 7. Other than the wifi issue, the speakers, and the lack of buttons.
[20:34] <SpeedEvil> I need to get it rooted, so I can patch the kernel. The charge meter completely omits current_now, which is kinda important.
[20:34] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb_: I assume you've thought of a multilayer design, with one layer supplying the h2 through a hole?
[20:35] <Laurenceb_> yeah, but more complex
[20:35] <Laurenceb_> more volume makes it laggy
[20:36] <SpeedEvil> Oh - right - you're meausring the h2 in the generator, not actually generating pure h2
[20:36] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[20:36] <Laurenceb_> and a control loop keeping partial pressure constant
[20:37] <Laurenceb_> then electrode current for electrolysis -> flow measurement
[20:38] <Laurenceb_> top of the plaster has to be alu foil to stop leakage there
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[20:38] <SpeedEvil> Is common-or-garden Al foil porous?
[20:38] <Laurenceb_> nope
[20:39] <SpeedEvil> Wondering about it for lining wooden vacum chambers.
[20:39] <Laurenceb_> its actually a lot less porous than iron/steel
[20:39] <Laurenceb_> for H2
[20:39] <Laurenceb_> H2 goes into steel almost as easily as tissue
[20:39] <SpeedEvil> I suppose it's a getter, somehwat, even at room teps?
[20:40] <Laurenceb_> id guess
[21:18] <Laurenceb_> arg
[21:18] <Laurenceb_> Ag+ would preferentially reduce relative to H=
[21:18] <Laurenceb_> *H=
[21:18] <Laurenceb_> arg H+
[21:18] <Laurenceb_> http://www.jesuitnola.org/upload/clark/refs/red_pot.htm
[21:18] <Laurenceb_> so Pt electrode gets coated with Ag
[21:19] <Laurenceb_> i think you solve these problems with salt bridges or something
[21:19] <Laurenceb_> time to "ask a chemist (tm)"
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[22:09] <Laurenceb_> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17091394
[22:09] <Laurenceb_> niceeee
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[23:25] <chrisstubbs> Hi guys
[23:25] <Lunar_Lander_> hello
[23:26] <chrisstubbs> Been finishing off my PCB
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[23:26] <chrisstubbs> http://flic.kr/p/cHjAoS
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[23:26] <chrisstubbs> Works perfect, did a little test run today
[23:27] <Lunar_Lander_> cool
[23:27] <Lunar_Lander_> :)
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[23:37] <chrisstubbs> How have you been doing?
[23:42] <Lunar_Lander_> quite OK
[23:42] <Lunar_Lander_> today I made some sort of spinoff from my balloon board
[23:42] <Lunar_Lander_> a smaller board that houses a BMP085, DS18B20, HIH-4030 and a microSD breakout
[23:42] <Lunar_Lander_> as some sort of "weather station" to be run by an arduino uno
[23:43] <chrisstubbs> Ah cool
[23:43] <chrisstubbs> Do you have an ethernet sheild you could put on it?
[23:43] <Lunar_Lander_> no, what could I do with it?
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[23:48] <fsphil> it's odd that a raspberry pi is cheaper than the arduino ethernet shield
[23:49] <Lunar_Lander_> yea
[23:49] <Lunar_Lander_> it's $45 at sparkfun!!
[23:49] <Lunar_Lander_> that is like hugely expensive
[23:50] <fsphil> aye
[23:52] <chrisstubbs> Ah perhaps not the official sheild, i got a LAN board with some kind of controller IC for £4 or so
[23:52] <chrisstubbs> I was thinking you could access the weather data from the internet
[23:52] <Lunar_Lander_> ah
[23:53] <Lunar_Lander_> yeah that might be an idea for later
[23:53] <chrisstubbs> I really want to hook my lights up to an arduino with an ethernet port, and write an android app to control the lights from my phone
[23:53] <chrisstubbs> Project for a rainy day :)
[23:53] <Lunar_Lander_> yeah
[23:53] <Lunar_Lander_> :)
[23:55] <fsphil> so anytime this summer basically :)
[23:57] <Lunar_Lander_> XD
[23:57] <chrisstubbs> Haha
[00:00] --- Wed Aug 1 2012