highaltitude.log.20120727

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[00:31] <MrCraig> hi all
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[07:10] <jcoxon> hey RocketBoy
[07:10] <RocketBoy> yo
[07:10] <Upu> morning
[07:12] <jcoxon> RocketBoy, hows it going?
[07:13] <RocketBoy> well - i have been quite busy over the last 2 weeks - but got a few spare days now
[07:13] <Upu> so are they launching Boris Jonson then ?
[07:14] <Upu> Johnson..
[07:14] <RocketBoy> I was thinking of launching Sunday - but there seem to be several flights planned
[07:14] <Upu> Launch next weekend so I can test this antenna :)
[07:14] <RocketBoy> oh - the opening ceremony - you will have to wait and see
[07:14] <Upu> Well I'll be on a plane
[07:15] <Upu> so I'll have to watch it again or something
[07:15] <RocketBoy> swarn to secracy
[07:15] <Upu> yeah fair enough
[07:15] <jcoxon> RocketBoy, would you be launching eurus if you did?
[07:16] <Upu> my 19 element AZ/EL yagi is going up on Wednesday
[07:16] <RocketBoy> yes I could do - it looked like it would end up in the north sea
[07:16] <RocketBoy> at least with a 20k float
[07:18] <jcoxon> the key would be being able to sufficiently track it
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[07:19] <RocketBoy> yeah - be nice to get a direction thats well covered
[07:19] <RocketBoy> I may see if I can do somthing next week
[07:32] <jcoxon> just got my resting current draw from 13mA down to 7mA
[07:32] <jcoxon> (when GPS is off
[07:32] <jcoxon> )
[07:32] <RocketBoy> thats way low
[07:33] <jcoxon> its not doing anything exciting now and will jump in current draw when it transmit
[07:33] <RocketBoy> sure - its the laws of physics
[07:34] <jcoxon> but when its just doing its chirps every 10 seconds it'll hopefully make a big difference
[07:34] <RocketBoy> still the traansmitters aren't particaularly effiicent
[07:34] <jcoxon> yeah its jumping up to 48mA
[07:34] <RocketBoy> about 30%
[07:35] <RocketBoy> typically
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[07:45] <fsphil> that's a bit rubbish
[07:47] <jcoxon> typically my changes have broken everything else
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[08:03] <RocketBoy> bbl
[08:03] <MrScienceMan> could i power an arduino on 6x AA
[08:03] <MrScienceMan> wouldnt the volts drop bellow 7 at some point
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[08:04] <Darkside> you can use a different regulator
[08:04] <Darkside> one with a lower dropout voltage
[08:04] <Darkside> or use a switchmode supply,either boost or buck
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[08:04] <Darkside> then you can power it off a wider range of voltages
[08:05] <MrScienceMan> well it has a regulator
[08:05] <MrScienceMan> 7 to 12 volts
[08:05] <Darkside> yes
[08:05] <Darkside> but providing the >7 adds weight
[08:05] <MrScienceMan> i've seen 9v batteries drop bellow 7 and still have a punch
[08:05] <Darkside> its why a lot of use use 3.3v payloads
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[08:05] <Darkside> also the gps modules run at 3.3v
[08:06] <Darkside> you can get 3.3v arduino pro's
[08:06] <Darkside> or pro nano
[08:06] <Darkside> whatever it is
[08:06] <MrScienceMan> got the uno
[08:06] <Darkside> not the best thing to fly
[08:07] <Darkside> weight, and supply issues
[08:07] <MrScienceMan> i know, but it ok for a first flight
[08:07] <Darkside> good for testing, to a point
[08:08] <MrScienceMan> uno's are people to
[08:08] <MrScienceMan> let them get into space
[08:08] <Darkside> you'll either need to use a boost converter to get teh 4v
[08:08] <Darkside> 5v*
[08:08] <Darkside> or drop down from a higher voltage
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[08:10] <MrScienceMan> for now im going with 6 AAs
[08:10] <Darkside> mm
[08:10] <Darkside> heavy
[08:10] <Darkside> you can get boost converters from sparkfun
[08:10] <Darkside> you could run it off 2xAAs
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[08:11] <MrScienceMan> i've seen some flat lion batteries
[08:11] <Darkside> they'll freeze
[08:11] <MrScienceMan> would it run for 3-4 hours on 2 AAs ?
[08:12] <Darkside> test it
[08:12] <Darkside> probably
[08:12] <Darkside> well, most likely acvtually
[08:12] <Darkside> the switchmode regulstor will be more efficient than a linear regulator
[08:12] <Darkside> you should get a goor 8-10 hours out of it
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[08:19] <MrScienceMan> ill look into a boost converter
[08:20] <Darkside> look at sparkfun's LiPower boards
[08:23] <MrScienceMan> dont have time to get one
[08:24] <nosebleedkt_> some first crazy results
[08:24] <nosebleedkt_> :
[08:24] <nosebleedkt_> Canon system: 470 10MP pictures every 20s. 10:50 - 13:35. 2hrs,45min. TTLCam system: 1832 0.3MP every 30s. 10:50 - 09:05(next day). 22hrs,50min.
[08:25] <nosebleedkt_> even though i took so many pics from ttl cam the main system lasted almost 23hrs
[08:26] <nosebleedkt_> I guess if i had the ttl cam switched of after land, the main system would last much much more
[08:26] <nosebleedkt_> 1557 pics were taken after land
[08:26] <Burninate> Could you put the lion batteries in a styrofoam box with the regulator?
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[08:27] <Burninate> or does styrofoam survive altitude
[08:28] <Darkside> styrofoam is fine
[08:29] <Darkside> its just that the lipos will freeze
[08:29] <Burninate> I'm talking about putting a heat source next to them, in an insulated box
[08:29] <Darkside> there isn't going to be enough current draw or heat dissipation to keep them warm enough to not freee
[08:29] <Darkside> don't do it
[08:29] <Darkside> just use energizer lithiums
[08:29] <Burninate> add insulation :P
[08:29] <Darkside> seriously
[08:30] <Darkside> if you lipo's, you're going to be a sad panda
[08:30] <Burninate> maybe a controlled heater of some sort
[08:30] <Burninate> with feedback
[08:30] <Darkside> waste of power
[08:30] <Darkside> again. lithium AAs.
[08:30] <Darkside> get them off ebay, they're cheap
[08:31] <zyp> it should certainly be possible, but you have to compare it to the weight
[08:31] <Burninate> bah, and humbug
[08:31] <Darkside> seriously.
[08:31] <Darkside> reliability is key
[08:31] <Darkside> lipos are not reliable in cold temeratures
[08:31] <Burninate> maybe you're right, primary cells have an application here
[08:32] <Darkside> there is a very good reason they are used by every high altitude ballooning payload
[08:32] <Darkside> you won't find many other batteriesin use
[08:32] <zyp> Darkside, but if you don't allow them to get cold, it's fine
[08:32] <zyp> but really, how does the power density of lithiums compare to lipo?
[08:33] <Darkside> actually pretty well
[08:33] <Burninate> it's superior IIRC
[08:33] <Darkside> one lithium AA has a 3Ah capacity
[08:33] <Darkside> and weighs 12g (i think)
[08:33] <daveake> 15
[08:33] <Darkside> there we go
[08:33] <zyp> if lipos aren't lighter than lithiums, what would the advantage of lipos be?
[08:33] <Darkside> rechargablre
[08:33] <daveake> There's only 1 - rechargeable
[08:33] <Darkside> could possibly use a solar panel to keep them topped up
[08:33] <daveake> So unless you're doing a floater and have solar cells, forget the,
[08:34] <daveake> Or a pico where they won't get that cold
[08:34] <Burninate> does HAB stuff have a wiki?
[08:34] <daveake> For a "normal" flight look no further than the energizers
[08:35] <Darkside> Burninate: the UKHAS wiki
[08:35] <daveake> ukhas.org.uk
[08:36] <Burninate> thx
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[08:41] <Burninate> I'm in the initial stages of building a UAV wiki @ http://dronepedia.com , to cover the general category of things we put in the air without a pilot for the purpose of lifting a payload. I'll be getting around to HAB as I learn more about it
[08:47] <Burninate> I'm particularly interested in 'floaters', and in controlled gliding descent
[08:49] <Upu> which country are you in Burninate ?
[08:50] <Burninate> the US
[08:50] <Upu> I do some reading up on the laws around UAV's
[08:50] <Upu> which I think even a controlled glider comes into
[08:50] <Upu> and to echo what the others have said, use Energizers :)
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[08:51] <Burninate> The laws around noncommercial UAVs are something I've delved into quite a bit. They're a massive grey area, and rapidly changing.
[08:53] <Burninate> The lab I've been working with used Mikrokopters for scientific work without special FAA dispensation, under the prevailing theory that either such use was recreational in nature, or that research work was not explicitly endorsed or dis-endorsed under FAA voluntary guidelines.
[08:55] <Burninate> Commercial work is outside the military-industrial complex, of course, presently disallowed, but is expected to be ubiquitous five years down the line
[08:55] <Burninate> *misplaced is
[08:58] <Burninate> are there any legal nuances to note about HABs that aren't designed to burst?
[09:00] <Burninate> shitty thing is, my time in the lab ended just as we got a big NSF grant and lots of toys :)
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[09:12] <costyn> Burninate: floaters, or HAB's that don't explode after reaching altitude, are regularly launched in the UK and USA. Most people here are in the UK, but we do get the occasional US visitor.
[09:12] <gonzo_> they all burst eventually!
[09:12] <costyn> well yes
[09:12] <nick_> Not if you make the balloon from titanium!
[09:13] Action: costyn is reminded of the lead balloon they had on mythbusters :)
[09:13] <gonzo_> sounds like you are laying down a chalenge!
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[09:15] <costyn> Burninate: talk to KT5TK or Dan-K2VOL, they're both in the US and do HAB stuff
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[09:15] <Burninate> The wiki isn't really specific to the US
[09:16] <Burninate> and floaters sound like they're a matter of practical international law in the first place
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[09:18] <costyn> Burninate: if you need info on that, talk to those two guys I mentioned, they're on here at times, and with their callsigns they're easy to find on the web;
[09:19] <Burninate> cool, thanks
[09:19] <costyn> Burninate: they've both done or are planning long range (cross-atlantic) floaters
[09:20] <Laurenceb__> dont tell the ham nazis
[09:21] <Laurenceb__> there will be a miassive frequency use war
[09:21] <costyn> Laurenceb__: elaborate?
[09:21] <costyn> ah
[09:21] <costyn> Dan is going to switch frequencies to match local convention afaik
[09:21] <Laurenceb__> the last transatlantic one attracted a lot of negative attention
[09:21] <costyn> actually he's using satellite comms
[09:22] <Laurenceb__> i see
[09:22] <Burninate> I've been curious about whether you guys attempt to mount directionals on the vehicle. They're unwieldy as hell on a fixed wing
[09:23] <costyn> Burninate: the vehicle as in the bit that goes into the air? we usually call it the payload
[09:23] <costyn> Burninate: and no, we don't use directionals, quarter-waves with groundplane is conventional
[09:23] <Laurenceb__> yeah
[09:24] <zyp> the vehicle would be the entire thing, of which payload(s) would be part(s) of
[09:24] <costyn> my first thought was mounting directional on the chase vehicle, hence my question :)
[09:24] <costyn> when I hear vehicle, I think car :)
[09:24] <Burninate> ahh
[09:26] <gonzo_> nice to see a good old fashioned clash of jargon!
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[09:26] <zyp> when I was involved with rocketry, we always referred to «launch vehicles»
[09:27] <gonzo_> always fun to see the confusion when slightly differing disciplines coem together
[09:28] <Burninate> I tend to be really entertained where the fields meet - gliding balloon-launched UAVs, controlled-elevation winch KAP, hyperblimps
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[09:29] <Laurenceb__> yeah
[09:29] <gonzo_> yep, same words used for diferent concepts. Whereas in the SW world, there are so many different words to describe the same old concepts
[09:30] <Laurenceb__> someone needs to do a return to base glider
[09:30] <costyn> I'd like to do a gliding balloon launched UAV someday, but need to acquire a lot of skills before I can make that happen
[09:30] <Laurenceb__> i have one but ive only launched once
[09:30] <costyn> Laurenceb__: did it work?
[09:30] <Laurenceb__> and a knot failed
[09:30] <Laurenceb__> dont laugh
[09:30] <gonzo_> is that a double negative?
[09:30] <costyn> so it all went to hell?
[09:30] <Laurenceb__> rogallo with Cof G shift
[09:30] <Laurenceb__> yes
[09:30] <Laurenceb__> well
[09:31] <Laurenceb__> it was controlled for a bit
[09:31] <Burninate> shouldn't be too hard, maybe a $500 outlay for everything if you use a cheap ARF foamie
[09:31] <Laurenceb__> then knot came undone due to vibration and the winch servo iddnt have enough authority
[09:31] <Laurenceb__> Burninate: not in the UK
[09:31] <Laurenceb__> fixed wing is definitely not ok
[09:32] <Laurenceb__> oh you are us
[09:32] <Laurenceb__> not sure what the rules are there tbh
[09:33] <Laurenceb__> but yeah one day ill try a relaunch of my rogallo
[09:33] <Burninate> I'm interested in every country's laws
[09:33] <Burninate> Which ones did you run into in the UK?
[09:33] <Laurenceb__> need to rip out the electronics and stick something new in
[09:33] <Laurenceb__> well its a UAV
[09:34] <Laurenceb__> which need a permit to fly outide of visual range
[09:35] <Laurenceb__> cuddykid - not here atm - asked CAA for guidance on launching fixed wing gliders from a balloon
[09:35] <Laurenceb__> they said it was identical to an outside of visual range uav
[09:36] <Burninate> did you specify an airspace class?
[09:36] <gonzo_> from wehat I've read, that seems the case
[09:36] <Laurenceb__> i dont know, but i think he was asking more generally
[09:37] <Laurenceb__> once we have a notam, we are allowed to have payloads descend by chute
[09:37] <Laurenceb__> and theres nothing to say the chute cant be guided
[09:39] <SpeedEvil> At what point does a pressurised inflated wing become a parachute
[09:40] <Laurenceb__> heh
[09:40] <Laurenceb__> exactly
[09:41] <Burninate> Did you look at the requirements for a permit?
[09:41] <Laurenceb__> not personally
[09:42] <Burninate> RCG circa 2k8 says there was a 200GBP annual permit
[09:42] <SpeedEvil> I could even imagine in a hand wavey sort of way a parachute gaining altitude via weight shift
[09:42] <Burninate> under discussion
[09:42] <Burninate> the law was passed in 2010
[09:42] <Burninate> http://diydrones.com/forum/topics/uk-uav-regulations-explained?commentId=705844%3AComment%3A127041
[09:42] <costyn> SpeedEvil: how would that work? you can really only gain lift if it is powered
[09:43] <Burninate> it specifies 400' AGL VLOS
[09:43] <SpeedEvil> birds wings are not internally powered.
[09:44] <SpeedEvil> winchnthe payload up and down, while changing aka
[09:44] <Laurenceb__> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4858664474879256299
[09:44] <costyn> SpeedEvil: i can't visualize what you're describing :)
[09:45] <Laurenceb__> (1) A person must not cause or permit any article or animal (whether or not attached to a parachute) to be dropped from a small unmanned aircraft so as to endanger persons or property.
[09:45] <Laurenceb__> so you cant bomb people
[09:45] <Laurenceb__> sucks man
[09:45] <SpeedEvil> hmm.
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[09:45] <costyn> nor put pigs under parachutes
[09:45] <SpeedEvil> what is not an article or animal.
[09:46] <Laurenceb__> lol
[09:46] <costyn> this would also imply you can't use a cutdown mechanism with your HAB
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[09:47] <SpeedEvil> Nothing springs to mind
[09:47] <costyn> although a HAB is probably not classified as a 'small unmanned aircraft"
[09:48] <Laurenceb__> thats the point
[09:48] <SpeedEvil> regulations are weird.
[09:48] <Laurenceb__> with hab if we have a notam we are allowed to drop onbjects by chute
[09:48] <Burninate> http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=415
[09:48] <SpeedEvil> very literal.
[09:49] <Laurenceb__> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4858664474879256299
[09:49] <Laurenceb__> is a test from a few years ago
[09:49] <costyn> Laurenceb__: model hang glider
[09:50] <Laurenceb__> basically yes - a rogallo
[09:50] <costyn> ah ok
[09:50] <costyn> didn't know that term yet
[09:51] <Laurenceb__> http://ukhas.org.uk/_media/projects:ukhas_glider_project:pict7924.jpg?w=750
[09:52] <SpeedEvil> costyn: To explain the above more fully. Imagine two cases. A) payload being winched up, while parachute is configured for optimal descent rate under teh applied load. B) payload being winched down, while parachute is configured to climb rapidly, while under near zero load.
[09:53] <SpeedEvil> B) requires some local mass in the parachute of course.
[09:54] <costyn> SpeedEvil: like a kite? is the only example I can think of a climbing parachute (we're talking about a square inflated matress parachute aren't we?)
[09:54] <SpeedEvil> costyn: Look at parachute (manned) landings.
[09:54] <SpeedEvil> the steerable sort.
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[09:54] <SpeedEvil> The fancy ones can 'flare'
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[09:55] <SpeedEvil> and actually gain altitude somewhat in trade for horizontal speed.
[09:55] <Laurenceb__> glide ratio is poor
[09:55] <SpeedEvil> yes.
[09:55] <Laurenceb__> rogallo never gets more than 5
[09:55] <Laurenceb__> and thats still poor
[09:55] <SpeedEvil> That's the nasty issue with the above, you'll be struggling.
[09:56] <SpeedEvil> With proper wings it's easy.
[09:56] <Laurenceb__> - the photo i linked - thats similar to what was launched, but i swapped to a winch servo
[09:56] <SpeedEvil> I don't think it's impossible though.
[09:56] <SpeedEvil> In principle.
[09:56] <Laurenceb__> to make it more damage resistance
[09:56] <Laurenceb__> *resistant
[09:56] <Laurenceb__> but thats where it went wrong, knots on nylon line tend to come undone under vibration
[09:57] <SpeedEvil> Also, doing way too much research on benefits has lead to me being extremely cautious of others opinions on benefits on the internet.
[09:57] <Laurenceb__> heh
[09:57] <Laurenceb__> bbl
[09:57] <SpeedEvil> For example - it's possible under employment and support allowance to earn under 20 pounds a week, _and_ claim working tax credit.
[09:57] <costyn> SpeedEvil: I skydived for 10 years, I'm familiar with swooping :) but height gain is marginal
[09:58] <SpeedEvil> costyn: In the normal case, yes.
[09:59] <SpeedEvil> costyn: But current chutes are very much not optimised for this, for obvious reasons.
[09:59] <costyn> SpeedEvil: agreed, thy're optimized to be able to slow down someone from 200 km/h to 20 in 3 or 4 seconds
[09:59] <SpeedEvil> And the key would be offloading pretty much all of the vertical load, with the winch.
[10:00] <costyn> SpeedEvil: a better model to look at would be paragliders
[10:00] <SpeedEvil> (while on the nonpower stroke.)
[10:00] <SpeedEvil> Indeed. I was wondering about a 'pure' system, with just a payload and a chute and rigging.
[10:01] <costyn> SpeedEvil: so the winch is on the ground and pulling the chute up right?
[10:01] <SpeedEvil> No, the winch is on the payload, winching it up and down the string.
[10:02] <costyn> ok, but using the same principle I suppose
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[10:03] <costyn> they do this in hang gliding too... winch in when with glider against the wind, then hang glider turns and goes downwind, maintaining altitude, winch pays out, once further out, turns towards wind and winch pulls in again, the hang glider goes higher
[10:04] <Burninate> CAP 722 definitions: "Unmanned
[10:04] <Burninate> Aircraft
[10:04] <Burninate> An aircraft which is designed to operate with no human pilot on board, as
[10:04] <Burninate> part of a UAS. Moreover a UA:
[10:04] <Burninate> • is capable of sustained flight by aerodynamic means;
[10:04] <Burninate> • is remotely piloted or automatically flies a pre-programmed flight
[10:04] <Burninate> profile;
[10:04] <Burninate> • is reusable;
[10:04] <Burninate> • is not classified as a guided weapon or similar one-shot device
[10:04] <Burninate> designed for the delivery of munitions.
[10:04] <Burninate> The acronyms RPA and UAV may be used interchangeably, with the same
[10:04] <Burninate> meaning."
[10:04] <Burninate> Is an RC glider capable of "sustained flight"?
[10:04] <SpeedEvil> Their position would be that sustained is more than momentary.
[10:05] <SpeedEvil> And you'd need to defend that.
[10:05] <Burninate> is a parachute "sustained flight" then?
[10:05] <SpeedEvil> Under those definitions, yes.
[10:06] <SpeedEvil> Or at least arguably so, and reliant on interpretation that it's not by them.
[10:06] <SpeedEvil> A rocket would however seem to not be covered.
[10:07] <SpeedEvil> I'm unsure if liquid rocket engine 'quadcopter' UAVs would therefore be illegal.
[10:08] <SpeedEvil> I'm unsure under what authority the CAA is making these rules.
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[10:12] <Burninate> "As long as your sub 20kg now, you just need to make a safety case to the CAA and submit the other paperwork they need.
[10:12] <Burninate> A BMFA qualification as far as I am are aware will still satisfy them on the piloting front.
[10:12] <Burninate> "
[10:13] <Burninate> http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1288680&page=4
[10:25] <Burninate> notes/link scratchpad at http://dronepedia.com/index.php?title=UK_Laws
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[10:32] <gonzo_> if the thread is still on HAB released gliders, would a BMFA qual be applicable?
[10:44] <SpeedEvil> no
[10:44] <SpeedEvil> it needs a proper UAV cert
[10:47] <Burninate> Were I a benevolent autocrat, I would specify UAS regulation based on what sort of glass panel a direct collision could shatter
[10:48] <Burninate> it kills me that foam planes and aluminum turbine jet fighters are considered the same thing
[10:48] <nick_> The UAV regs are pretty lame
[10:49] <costyn> Burninate: that is quite lame yes
[10:49] <nick_> All the cool things I want to use a UAV for wouldn't be allowed.
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[10:53] <Burninate> a glass collision test nicely sidesteps weight, material, prop speed, everything
[10:54] <Burninate> particularly given an oppositional system where the regulator tries to crash it :)
[10:56] <Burninate> still working out the pseudocode gonzo_
[10:59] <Burninate> http://www.bmfa.org/publications/aerotows.html
[10:59] <Burninate> "All models Under 7 kg, both powered and un-powered
[10:59] <Burninate> These are not limited in any way other than having to comply with articles 73 and 74 of the ANO which are the endangering articles that we should all be familiar with."
[11:09] <Burninate> You have public FOIA's. Awesome. http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/parrot_ardrone_legality
[11:15] <SpeedEvil> Burninate: That is a small subset - it's only those through that site.
[11:15] <SpeedEvil> Which is a great pity.
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[11:22] <gonzo_> make the person submitting the model, stand behind the glass
[11:30] <Burninate> it's not designed to guarantee a manufacturer rating of approved glass safety guards, it's designed to give an indication of how much damage it could cause things in general. Soda-lime float glass is the same everywhere, and if you can't break a 5mm x 1m x 1m panel, you're not really any more dangerous than a slap of a human hand. Something that can break a 20mm x 1m x 1m panel, on the other hand, could easily crack a s
[11:30] <Burninate> kull
[11:31] <Burninate> it applies equally for, say, evaluating whether a particular parachute is big enough for a given payload to be safe dropping uncontrolled
[11:34] <Randomskk> it seems to me a lot of the CAA stuff might be to do with privacy as much as anything
[11:35] <Randomskk> and regulating stuff that was once solely military and security agency domain :p
[11:35] <costyn> Burninate: I thought the best example of this was Mythbusters' test of the chicken cannon. They were never able to get good results until they started testing how many panes of glass were broken by thawed vs frozen chickens
[11:35] <Burninate> ooh, I need to see that one
[11:36] <costyn> Burninate: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHfejwdrMVQ this is just the money shots
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[11:39] <gonzo_> someone did an FOI request on the UK met office regarding damage/insurance claims. Ome of the figures was for sonde claims.
[11:39] <gonzo_> From mem there were two for glass. One being a conservatory roof got a pane cracked, which is believeable. The other was a car windscreen, which I suspect was just someone pulling a fast one.
[11:40] <gonzo_> the only other, was the only varifable one, for removing one from power cables
[11:40] <daveake> We know that happens :p
[11:41] <gonzo_> hehe yep
[11:41] <gonzo_> mainly seems to be steve's media flights
[11:42] <gonzo_> btw dave, did you reply to me the other day, about H2 bottle hire/periods/cost etc?
[11:42] <daveake> Ask number10kV about that :D
[11:42] <gonzo_> oops, did he get a bill?
[11:42] <daveake> He may not have needed help :)
[11:43] <gonzo_> ah yes it was no10 who went out to spot it
[11:43] <daveake> No, different flight.
[11:43] <daveake> This was 10kV's own flight
[11:43] <gonzo_> 10kv are going to be easy enough with care
[11:43] <daveake> Dry day / nylon cord hanging down / rubber wellies* - no problem
[11:43] <daveake> *lie
[11:44] <gonzo_> remote scisors on non metaliv pole
[11:44] <daveake> He just cut the cord and it flopped to the ground
[11:44] <daveake> Re H2 ...
[11:45] <daveake> BOC do 2 sizes of H2 cylinder - B (too small) and K (quite large)
[11:45] <gonzo_> we used to tie copper wire to spuds and throw up, bolas style on the 10kv lines. As kids I will add!
[11:45] <daveake> K is £44 + VAT, and gives you 7.2 m^3
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[11:45] <gonzo_> that's not bad. Bottle hire?
[11:45] <daveake> Plus £15 collection charge, unless you're Upu who has special treatment
[11:46] <daveake> That includes 1 month; after that dunno - A few £ probably
[11:46] <daveake> I have the figure somewhere
[11:46] <gonzo_> ta, will make some calls.
[11:46] <costyn> Burninate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MythBusters_(2004_season)#Chicken_Gun_2 <-- this is the actual episode. Can't find it on youtube tho
[11:46] <daveake> I try to make sure it gets used and returned rather than have a H2 cylinder sat in my garden for a month :)
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[11:46] <Burninate> is there a practical hydrogen generation method for hobbyists?
[11:46] <Burninate> rather than buying it canned
[11:46] <gonzo_> is thetre a std coupling for uk bottles?
[11:47] <daveake> If you find the local BOC stockist, pop in and ask for an account.
[11:47] <daveake> BOC though do take *weeks* to process it
[11:47] <daveake> Yes, but don't ask me what thread :D
[11:47] <daveake> It'll be on the BOC site
[11:47] <gonzo_> Thanks. I have plenty of regs, just need to find the fitting
[11:48] <daveake> It's LH and a 28mm nut. That's all I can remember
[11:48] <costyn> Burninate: buying pre-canned is probably cheaper easier and safer :)
[11:48] <gonzo_> and no prob having H2 lying around. Though as I have big O2 bottles, it could be a temptation!
[11:48] <daveake> I think it's the same as an acetylene thread
[11:49] <gonzo_> I may have one then. I have a cetty bottle, but empty unfortunatly
[11:50] <number10> must change my nick to number11 so you can get the correct voltage 11kv daveake ;)
[11:50] <Burninate> costyn: I recall creating hydrogen in chemistry class at some point and blowing it up
[11:50] <Burninate> almost invisible flame
[11:50] <daveake> lol
[11:50] <daveake> Yep. Hot flame too
[11:50] <Burninate> but the reagents were shelf-stable and compact
[11:50] <daveake> The 3.6 m^3 He bottle I picked up yesterday, for Sunday's launch, was £80
[11:50] <costyn> Burninate: yea me too. but through electrolysis is a very energy expensive process
[11:50] <Burninate> most Google results are on hydrogen from water
[11:51] <Burninate> fuck that
[11:51] <number10> ah, you managed to get large He evetually then daveake - was it loacal?
[11:51] <daveake> Medium - T size
[11:51] <Burninate> Hydrogen from decomposition or reaction with hydrocarbon is simpler
[11:51] <daveake> I called 2 Air Products suppliers; neither had any
[11:52] <daveake> BOC place told me AP aren't supply balloon gas at all now
[11:52] <number10> is a bit worrying ssems to be a bit of a shortage
[11:52] <daveake> supplying
[11:52] <daveake> Yep
[11:52] <number10> who did you get from in the end?
[11:53] <BrainDamage> Burninate: add HCl to Al foil
[11:53] <daveake> Same as usual
[11:53] <Darkside> wow
[11:53] <BrainDamage> it'll make plenty of hydrogen
[11:53] <BrainDamage> the problem is that it'll also be quite hot
[11:53] <Darkside> i wonder how long until australia runs out..
[11:53] <daveake> He is currently 2.5 times the price of H2, using the cheapest supplier and assuming those cylinder sizes
[11:53] <Darkside> more expensive here :(
[11:53] <Burninate> When you say "Plenty"...
[11:53] <daveake> Steve said it's going up next week
[11:54] <daveake> (He price that is)
[11:54] Action: Burninate re-learns stoichiometry
[11:54] <Darkside> this is going to sound a bit bad
[11:54] <Darkside> but i wonder how long until the first HAB hydrogen accudent
[11:54] <BrainDamage> 2 Al + 6 HCl -> 2 AlCl3 + 3 H2
[11:54] <Darkside> accident
[11:54] <Darkside> because a hydrogen accident will likely result in someone getting very very badly burnt
[11:54] <daveake> Well, it's possible, so it may happen
[11:55] <daveake> fsphil has a face mask; might be a good idea
[11:55] <Darkside> i think it's just a mattter of time
[11:55] <BrainDamage> do you mean pre-launch, or post?
[11:55] <Burninate> It goes up pretty fast in a 1m balloon, I wonder how mixing-limited it is in high volumes
[11:56] <Burninate> we deal with more dangerous things all the time
[11:56] <Burninate> IIRC the hazard with hydrogen is invisible leaks that happen to be on invisible fire
[11:56] <costyn> Burninate: that sounds bad yes
[11:57] <Darkside> invisible fire that quickly turns into visible fire, and visible burning fragments of latex melting onto your face
[11:57] <daveake> Yes. Inside the balloon is fine - it's going to be almost all H2 within a second of opening the valve
[11:57] <Darkside> as soon as the balloon ruptures though.. it mixes
[11:57] <Darkside> sure, most of the flame will go up
[11:57] <daveake> Yes of course
[11:57] <Darkside> thats good
[11:57] <Darkside> but its the burning latex that scares the hell out of me
[11:57] <Burninate> In the test I witnessed, the H2 went up too fast to light any of the latex on fire
[11:57] <Darkside> and the concussion
[11:58] <Darkside> Burninate: what balloon did they use?
[11:58] <daveake> There's a video on YT showing a H2 weather balloon being deliberately set light to
[11:58] <Darkside> ahh that one
[11:58] <Darkside> yeah i've seen that
[11:58] <Laurenceb> ive generated hydrogen with Al and NaOH
[11:58] <Darkside> i would *not* want to be beneath it
[11:58] <daveake> No explosin - a whoomph as it flies up and downwind
[11:58] <Burninate> a 1m white latex balloon?
[11:58] <daveake> Spray melted burning latex as it goes
[11:58] <daveake> So rule #1 stay upwind as much as possible
[11:58] <Burninate> I'm dumb speculating
[11:58] <Burninate> this is verifiable
[11:58] <Burninate> Youtube ahoy!
[11:59] <costyn> have link anyone?
[11:59] <daveake> just a sec
[11:59] <Laurenceb> ive launched wheely bin liners with diy hydrogen
[11:59] <costyn> i only see ones where people deliberately mixed hydrogen and oxygen in side the balloon
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[11:59] <Laurenceb> also filled them with oxygen for explosions
[11:59] <daveake> there is one ; just need to find it :)
[11:59] <costyn> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=cQvpK9cl0No&NR=1
[12:00] <gonzo_> oxy-cetty in small latex balloons is fun, but you lose your hearing for a while
[12:00] <Darkside> daveake: i'll stay with teh cars while you guys fill, once it's up in the air i'll come join you :P
[12:00] <daveake> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQvpK9cl0No
[12:00] <SpeedEvil> Yeah. H isn't that scary. Just dress so you're OK with someone throwing a flaming bit of rubber at you.
[12:00] <Burninate> I realize I don't remember the demonstration in question well enough to verify that they were using hydrogen instead of hydrox
[12:00] <Burninate> which is showing up in the search results
[12:00] <costyn> daveake: that is nasty... yes don't be downwind
[12:00] <daveake> Darkside: Wimp! Safe unburned wimp mind :)
[12:00] <SpeedEvil> If it's hydrox, you know.
[12:00] <SpeedEvil> Largely by the window-shattering report.
[12:00] <SpeedEvil> Hydrogen just burns.
[12:01] <gonzo_> does the water that results put out the burning lates?
[12:01] <gonzo_> x
[12:01] <daveake> :)
[12:01] <Darkside> daveake: we'll be using hydrogen here eventually
[12:01] <number10> when are you over here Darkside ?
[12:01] <daveake> There are some guidelines on the wiki
[12:01] <SpeedEvil> gonzo_: No.
[12:02] <daveake> A powder extinguisher is recommended
[12:02] <Laurenceb> lol at comments on youtube
[12:02] <gonzo_> hehe, wasn't serious!
[12:02] <Burninate> small balloons on H2 and HO at 1:00 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjA9tQ6zaPQ
[12:02] <BrainDamage> I think the biggest concern would be add a mechanism that prevents an unbursted balloon to re-land
[12:02] <Laurenceb> the trees are _slightly_ too damp to catch fire
[12:02] <daveake> Apparently you don't need a warning sticker on the car until you have 2-3 large cylinders on board, but I feel *so* much safer with one :p
[12:02] <SpeedEvil> I have wondered about HO in a 'proper' balloon.
[12:02] <SpeedEvil> At altitude.
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[12:03] <Darkside> BrainDamage: cutdown device
[12:03] <SpeedEvil> I suspect a HO balloon at 25km or so would couple interestingly to the atmosphere.
[12:03] <Darkside> hehe
[12:03] <Darkside> i reckon that'd be interesting :P
[12:03] <costyn> cutdown could be a spark generator or laser (from dvd burner) to set it on fire :)
[12:04] <Burninate> oh yeah, that's not nice: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQvpK9cl0No
[12:04] <Darkside> heh costyn
[12:04] <Burninate> latex burns ahoy
[12:04] <SpeedEvil> hmm
[12:04] <SpeedEvil> I clicked on a youtube link from my rasp
[12:04] <SpeedEvil> berry pi
[12:04] <SpeedEvil> I don't think this will go well.
[12:05] <costyn> SpeedEvil: prolly not
[12:05] <Burninate> it has mpeg-4 acceleration, right?
[12:05] <Burninate> just not mpeg-2
[12:05] <costyn> yup
[12:05] <SpeedEvil> h.264 only IIRC
[12:05] <Laurenceb> wonder if you could do dvbt with a usb dongle
[12:05] <SpeedEvil> And I just get a 'flash or html5 required'
[12:06] <SpeedEvil> dvbt is mpeg2 isn't it?
[12:06] <Burninate> HO may actually be more safe if you're around more flammable things than glass
[12:06] <Burninate> you go deaf instead of on fire
[12:07] <daveake> *Burninate is now known as Deafinate :p
[12:07] <SpeedEvil> I question the use of the word safe with a significant sized HO balloon.
[12:07] <costyn> daveake: but is getting a bottle of H2 as easy as getting a bottle of He?
[12:07] <Burninate> a demonstration of a big HO balloon explosion does not include flaming debris: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMB2VR0087w
[12:07] <SpeedEvil> Easier - they are used for wedding.
[12:07] <daveake> Call BOC agent "I want H2 please" <clunk>
[12:07] <SpeedEvil> welding
[12:08] <costyn> interesting
[12:08] <SpeedEvil> many gasses are used for welding - including He.
[12:08] <daveake> With He it's cheaper to buy from a party place than use a BOC account.
[12:08] <daveake> With H2 you need the account
[12:08] <Burninate> looks to be maybe 10 cubic meters in mylar
[12:09] <costyn> wait, why would you use hydroxy in a HAB?
[12:10] <Burninate> Higher explosive = deflagrates too fast to catch on fire
[12:10] <SpeedEvil> I believe HO detonates, not deflagrates.
[12:10] <Burninate> yeah, that :)
[12:11] <BrainDamage> he'd pourposely make the balloon land, so he could reuse it as localization tool by making it explode
[12:11] <costyn> not sure I'd it detonating instead of flaming in case of accident
[12:12] <Burninate> BrainDamage: Me?
[12:12] <BrainDamage> yes
[12:12] <Burninate> I was just speculating about filling accidents, I haven't done any HAB work
[12:13] <daveake> We don't call it High Altitude Bangs for nothing
[12:13] <Burninate> I think that could be done if you had a triangulation mic array and an altitude sensor on it
[12:14] <Burninate> I don't see why you'd do that instead of just slap a locator on it
[12:14] <BrainDamage> it was a joke ...
[12:15] <nosebleedkt_> I am making a summary report of the mission and I'm collecting information. What do you think will be useful information to report?
[12:16] <Burninate> How *do* you guys recover payloads?
[12:16] <Darkside> Burninate: by continuously transmitting position information
[12:16] <Darkside> in a very reliable manner
[12:16] <Burninate> satellite? cell?
[12:16] <Darkside> radio
[12:16] <Upu> 70cms radio
[12:16] <Burninate> band?
[12:16] <Upu> and those things called legs
[12:16] <Darkside> low baud rate RTTY, usuallt on 434MHz
[12:16] <Upu> 434Mhz
[12:16] <Darkside> hrm
[12:16] <Darkside> i guess the project horus writeup is a good explanation here
[12:16] <Upu> we're not allowed to use APRS or anything in the air
[12:17] <Burninate> We used these with my lab, without needing a HAM license: http://dronepedia.com/index.php?title=Emergency_Locator#GPS_tracker
[12:17] <Darkside> Burninate: http://pipe2.darklomax.org/dump/horus_ar.pdf
[12:17] <Darkside> Burninate: those are $$ though
[12:18] <Darkside> the kinds of trackers we use probably cost about $50 in parts to make, maybe less
[12:18] <Darkside> the receivers may cost a bit more of course
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[12:36] <Upu> right have fun back on Sunday
[12:37] <daveake> Have a fun weekend
[12:37] <daveake> Though how you can have fun without HAB is beyond me :)
[12:37] <Upu> its called wine
[12:38] <Darkside> looool
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[12:39] <daveake> Tomorrow wine; Sunday HAB. My weekend is planned.
[12:39] <MrScienceMan> sounds good
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[12:39] <gonzo_> that's because HAB always sterts with bacon butties
[12:40] <Darkside> hrm
[12:40] <daveake> Not always, apparently. Shocking, but true.
[12:40] <Darkside> not sure i'd like bacon in a sandwich
[12:40] <gonzo_> for the record, looks like the BOC H2 fitting is a G3/8 left-hand
[12:41] <daveake> Yep. I remember now :)
[12:41] <gonzo_> it's the best way to eat bacon. And if you can load a fried egg in there, and the obligatory brown sauce
[12:41] <Upu> [13:40] <Darkside> not sure i'd like bacon in a sandwich eh ?
[12:41] <daveake> ^^ standard HAB brekkie here
[12:42] <Upu> did we not export bacon butties to down under with all the criminals ?
[12:42] <nosebleedkt_> ok on burst the capsule reached 385km/h
[12:42] <gonzo_> I'll have a rummage in my coupkling box and see if I have one of them. I definitly have plenty of regs
[12:42] <daveake> lol
[12:42] <nosebleedkt_> LOL
[12:42] <nosebleedkt_> ublox reported 107m/s vertical speed
[12:42] <daveake> Sunday it might have to be the McDonalds version en route
[12:42] <Upu> anyway bye
[12:42] <nosebleedkt_> which is 385
[12:42] <Darkside> nosebleedkt_: jeez
[12:42] <nosebleedkt_> km/h
[12:42] <Darkside> did you have a parachute at all?
[12:42] <nosebleedkt_> yes parachute deployed
[12:43] <nosebleedkt_> crashland at 8m/s
[12:43] <gonzo_> but there is bugger all air up there
[12:43] <Darkside> i haven't seen that kind of descent speed, except for the 43km ones
[12:43] <Darkside> i guess it could also be to do with the sampling times
[12:43] <daveake> Highest I've seen was 420kph vertically
[12:43] <daveake> But how believable that is, when the thing is falling and spinning, I don't know
[12:44] <nosebleedkt_> >40.8369,22.9198,37126,268,097,+107,10,1102|31,+21,+24,46,0 5|0687,FF,BABALU >40.8371,22.9153,35877,284,102,+100,10,1102|31,+21,+21,46,0 6|0688,FF,BABALU
[12:44] <Darkside> mm
[12:44] <nosebleedkt_> 107m/s and 100m/s
[12:44] <daveake> That one started off at about 41km up
[12:44] <Darkside> i've always been a bit doubtful about gps altitude accuracy
[12:44] <daveake> me too
[12:44] <Darkside> i really want to fly a dual-freq payload
[12:44] <Darkside> to check against
[12:45] <Darkside> i just don't have $4000 for a OEMV-1DF gps receiver
[12:45] <nosebleedkt_> well do you think its impossible to have that vertical speed?
[12:45] <Darkside> nosebleedkt_: not at all
[12:45] <Darkside> we've seen payloads drop incredibly fast
[12:45] <nosebleedkt_> stupid gravity
[12:46] <nosebleedkt_> from burst to land it took about 30min
[12:46] <Darkside> yeah thats normal
[12:46] <Darkside> how heavy was your payload?
[12:46] <Darkside> and what kind of parachute did you use?
[12:46] <gonzo_> actually, what is the gravity at those alts?
[12:46] <nosebleedkt_> 1347g
[12:46] <Darkside> oh jeez
[12:46] <Darkside> ok
[12:46] <nosebleedkt_> parachute neither very small nor big
[12:46] <Darkside> gonzo_: wouldn't be much lower than 9.8m/s/s
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[12:47] <Burninate> Without doing the math: the gravity as those altitude is better than 99.9% of surface gravity
[12:47] <Burninate> gravity doesn't vary that much
[12:47] <nosebleedkt_> when it reached 15km altitude it was falling at 17m/s
[12:47] <Darkside> mm
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[12:47] <Darkside> thats the parachute catching and drag setting in
[12:47] <Darkside> ain't much drag at 40km tho
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[12:48] <gonzo_> yep, no centrifucal force to counteract it that you tget in orbit
[12:48] <nosebleedkt_> speed was slowing smoothly
[12:48] <Darkside> the ascent altitude plot should be roughly linear, the descent plot approx exponential
[12:48] <Darkside> logarithmic*
[12:48] <Darkside> whatever
[12:48] <Darkside> a curve
[12:48] <daveake> lol
[12:48] <daveake> :)
[12:49] <Darkside> :P
[12:49] <gonzo_> draw your cueve THEN plot your points
[12:49] <nosebleedkt_> max inside temp: 59C
[12:49] <nosebleedkt_> lol
[12:49] <Darkside> hehe
[12:49] <Darkside> yep
[12:50] <Darkside> i think i've seen 70 or 80 degrees, right before my HF payload melted
[12:50] <daveake> Steve's rule-of-thumb is that the descent speed at 10km up is double what you get at landing, and that's held true n the flights I've watched since I heard it
[12:50] <daveake> So 10m/s at 10km and you're on target
[12:50] <nosebleedkt_> well
[12:51] <nosebleedkt_> something is wrong with temperature
[12:51] <nosebleedkt_> on 38.8km it reports +20C
[12:51] <nosebleedkt_> lol
[12:51] <Darkside> that can be correct
[12:51] <daveake> sun
[12:51] <Darkside> its not cold up there
[12:51] <daveake> it's hot
[12:51] <Darkside> coldest point is at 12km altitude
[12:51] <Darkside> the tropopause
[12:51] <nosebleedkt_> but people say its very cold
[12:51] <Darkside> above that, the payload will start to warm up again
[12:51] <daveake> people say lits of things
[12:51] <daveake> lots
[12:51] <Darkside> nosebleedkt_: make a graph of temperature vs altitude
[12:51] <gonzo_> is the speed in nmea secnences just the horisontal vector?
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[12:51] <Darkside> you'l see what i mean
[12:51] <Darkside> gonzo_: i think so
[12:52] <Darkside> well, pretty damn sure so
[12:52] <Darkside> as we use it a LOT when chasing
[12:52] <daveake> As Darkside says, it gets colder up to 10-14km then warms up. Plus a black sensor looking at the sun is going to warm up somewhat
[12:52] <nosebleedkt_> well, around 12 to 19km I get lowest temps
[12:52] <daveake> Close enough :)
[12:52] <nosebleedkt_> then it all raises
[12:52] <daveake> yep
[12:53] <nosebleedkt_> i got -40 at 16840
[12:53] <nosebleedkt_> meters
[12:54] <nosebleedkt_> everything starts to be fun
[12:54] <nosebleedkt_> the plots will be funny
[12:54] <nosebleedkt_> im expecting other things and you now tell me other
[12:54] <nosebleedkt_> lowest barometer 2mb at 38884m
[12:55] <daveake> gonzo_ My car PC tracking program has a compass showing where the payload is relative to the car position/direction, plus it shows a smaller compass with the payload's speed and direction. Very handy because you want to go where the payload is heading not where it is right now :)
[12:55] <daveake> So I include those values from the payload's GPS in the telemetry string (though they could be calculated from pairs of readings in the car program)
[12:59] <gonzo_> rrr dave
[13:00] <daveake> For Sunday, if we hang around for 3 hours after receovery, should see the Red Arrows flying back to base :)
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[13:22] <Burninate> Does ham authorization for voice comms over a particular band equate to authorization for data comms?
[13:23] <Laurenceb> i dont think so
[13:25] <LazyLeopard> Depends a lot on the particular ham licence that applies...
[13:26] <LazyLeopard> ...but I've certainly seen licences with mode-specific restrictions.
[13:27] <Burninate> Is there a website that covers this type of thing well?
[13:27] <gonzo_> in the UK, they don't care what you put over the bands, as long as it is kept within the mands
[13:27] <gonzo_> bands
[13:27] <LazyLeopard> ...and it isn't encrypted.
[13:28] <gonzo_> yep, that too
[13:28] <Burninate> Encryption controls sound crazy impractical
[13:28] <LazyLeopard> ...but in the US they do seem to apply different restrictions depending on mode.
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[13:28] <gonzo_> there is a rectriction on part of the HF band, 10meg I think. Only narrow band allowed.
[13:29] <gonzo_> OFCOM in the UK went to what they call 'technology neutral"
[13:29] <costyn> so what happens if you do encrypt it? do you get a visit from some gentlemen in suits?
[13:30] <gonzo_> so if you have a comercial licence, you are just buying the bandwidth, They don't care what you use it for
[13:30] <costyn> and where does custom encoding end and encryption start, if they can't immediately figure out the encoding used :)
[13:30] <Darkside> costyn: you can get a fine if someone reports it
[13:30] <gonzo_> I doubt they would even know these days. They have very few tech people
[13:30] <LazyLeopard> Burninate: It's quite simple. If you've encrypted your message then you can't send it over amateur bands under the amateur licence.
[13:30] <Burninate> Does "Compiled bytecode" or "JPEG compression" or "MPEG stream" or "LZW encryption" = encrypted?
[13:31] <costyn> Burninate: exactly! :)
[13:31] <Darkside> hehehehe
[13:31] <LazyLeopard> ...and it'll be down to you to prove your message isn't encrypted.
[13:31] <Darkside> Burninate: this is a long-standing discussion
[13:31] <Darkside> the best example is high power wifi on the amateur 13cm band
[13:31] <Darkside> whichis basically the 2.4GHz ISM band
[13:31] <Darkside> a HAM can run a hundret watt wifi AP
[13:31] <gonzo_> it takes years fo them to sdo anything about people swearing and playing music on the repeaters (as pirates) so crypto on an band would prob never get dealt with
[13:31] <LazyLeopard> costyn: It's compressed using code that is available, and anyone could un-compress it, so it's not encrypted.
[13:31] <Darkside> but if he/she puts SSL traffic over it, is that brraching the license conditions?
[13:32] <Darkside> it's never been determined
[13:32] Action: Burninate was typing a comment on SSL :)
[13:32] <LazyLeopard> ...until you use a password during the compression. ;)
[13:32] <LazyLeopard> Darkside: Yes
[13:32] <gonzo_> you can code traffic to facilitate the transport but not encrype
[13:32] <Burninate> Whatever you do, don't salt your passwords
[13:32] <LazyLeopard> It's point-to-point encrypted.
[13:32] <Darkside> hehe
[13:32] <Darkside> its an interesting regulation
[13:32] <LazyLeopard> A third party would not be able to listen in to what was sent.
[13:33] <BrainDamage> what about dsss modulations? that's sort of encrypted
[13:33] <gonzo_> 100W WLAN?! Nope, the UK licence allows 400W
[13:33] <Darkside> i'd be interested to see that kind of case go to court
[13:33] <Darkside> though i'm pretty sure if the wifi was hooked up to the web then that'd be the main issue
[13:33] <Burninate> spread spectrum frequency hopping was explicitly used to evade eavesdroping, right?
[13:33] <gonzo_> you can only spread enough to facilitate the transmission
[13:33] <Darkside> as amateurs can't hook their radio gear up to telecomms networks
[13:34] <BrainDamage> spread spectrum, both direct synthesis and freq hopping are hard to eavasdrop
[13:34] <gonzo_> you can only pass AR traffic over AR bands
[13:34] <BrainDamage> because they can bury the signal at noise floor, or even lower
[13:34] <BrainDamage> thanks to code gain
[13:34] <Darkside> but yeah, its kind of a grey area, and in general if you don't piss people off nobody will care
[13:34] <gonzo_> so if I use wlan to link a D-Star repeater to the web, that';s ok
[13:34] <costyn> and why do they care so much? a huge amount of traffic on the internet is encrypted, why is this different?
[13:34] <LazyLeopard> You could not legally use secure WiFi on an amateur band under an amateur licence.
[13:34] <Darkside> gonzo_: ahh, thats passing amateur traffic over the web
[13:34] <gonzo_> if I used it for non AR data then that is not ok
[13:34] <Darkside> but passing the web over amateur traffic!
[13:34] <Darkside> not*
[13:35] <BrainDamage> costyn: I guess because it's a shared medium
[13:35] <Darkside> again
[13:35] <Darkside> confusing laws
[13:35] <Darkside> lots of grey
[13:35] <Darkside> and in general, nobody gives a shit
[13:35] <LazyLeopard> costyn: Historical reasons. ;)
[13:35] <costyn> ok :)
[13:35] <Darkside> in australia encryption is allowed for the purpose of controlling a remote radio
[13:35] <gonzo_> there is notbhing to stop the web being used as part of an AR data path. But it's up the the AR station to make sure only AR data goes over the air
[13:36] <LazyLeopard> Think back to SoE and such like...
[13:36] <Burninate> They want to make sure you're not a Soviet spy
[13:36] <Burninate> and give themselves a reason to hold anyone suspected of being same
[13:37] <gonzo_> just reasing a book about the SOE and their creation
[13:38] <LazyLeopard> Darkside: Here the remote link rules say such links must be for your use only, but don't say how you can enforce that.
[13:38] <Burninate> A prohibition on encrypted communications probably dates back to before encryption became actually effective, with public-private key networked exchanges
[13:38] <Darkside> mm
[13:38] <gonzo_> a long time ago, you could only use modes that the post office (who administeres radio licenses) had equipment to RX. So you could use RTTY at 45/50/75bd but nothing else
[13:39] <Darkside> nowdays people experimet with new modes all the time
[13:39] <Darkside> and without the info on the mode, its effectively encrypted
[13:39] <gonzo_> securoty by obscutity
[13:41] <Burninate> I think it was put in so that the Cockneys couldn't take over with their secret society of rhyming slangers
[13:41] <gonzo_> during ww2 the US used native indians as communicators over open links
[13:42] <Burninate> Yup. A big 'fuck you, bigots' from multiculturalism right there.
[13:42] <gonzo_> and apptly welsh was used too (though only within welsh speaking unkits)
[13:42] <Burninate> although we'd probably have used dog barks if we could have
[13:42] <gonzo_> units
[13:43] <Burninate> Was Cryptonomicon's portrayal of Outer Qwrghm an analog of Welsh, or is there some New Hebridean language I'm not familiar with?
[13:44] <Burninate> *Qwghlm
[13:45] <Burninate> erm
[13:45] <Burninate> Old Hebridean
[13:45] <Darkside> hrm
[13:45] <Burninate> rather
[13:45] <Darkside> im not sure what that island was meant to portray
[13:45] <gonzo_> In the evenings the fishermen use their HF boat radios as a CB between themselves. And the thick scots accents are like a different language
[13:46] <Darkside> i really need to re-read cryptonomicon again..
[13:46] <Darkside> very good book
[13:46] <costyn> yea me too
[13:46] <gonzo_> after 10mins you start to get your ear in to it though, usually because you realise that every other word is f**k
[13:46] <Darkside> anyone here read Anathem?
[13:46] <Burninate> yeah
[13:46] <gonzo_> more of a pratchet man here
[13:46] <Darkside> bit slow to start, but brilliant book
[13:46] <costyn> not yet... any good?
[13:47] <Darkside> very highly reccommended
[13:47] <costyn> cool thx
[13:47] <costyn> now to find the audiobook
[13:47] <Darkside> it's long..
[13:47] <Burninate> it's odd
[13:47] <Burninate> everybody seems to like a different part
[13:47] <Burninate> the beginning, middle, and end are very different types of settings
[13:48] <Darkside> yeah
[13:48] <Burninate> I actually used it independently along with Clock of the Long Now in a discussion the other day
[13:48] <Burninate> without realizing that the one inspired the other
[13:48] <Darkside> i like the discovery and research around the <SPOILER>
[13:49] <Burninate> (we were talking about the structural stability required for cryonics to work, but that's another story)
[13:49] <Darkside> heh
[13:49] <Darkside> i'm glad the clock of the long now has been funded
[13:49] <Darkside> its on my list of things to see before i die
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[13:52] <Burninate> It's a pilgrimage
[13:52] <Burninate> remember to leave money in the till
[13:52] <Darkside> hehe
[13:52] <Burninate> That compound interest is important
[13:53] <Darkside> haha
[13:53] <Burninate> so the Hebrides speak Scottish Gaelic, not just with an accent
[13:54] <Burninate> That means I just need to take out my handy translation dictionary
[13:54] <Burninate> (here's a link if you've somehow missed buying your paper copy: http://www.dicts.info/dictionary.php?l1=scottish_gaelic&l2=navajo )
[13:56] <Darkside> bahahahahah
[13:56] <costyn> well there's something that's not going to see a lot of use :)
[13:59] <gonzo_> the fishphone chatter on HF was more like strong glaswegian (including the sweary bits)
[14:07] <costyn> yes... beer'o'clock here
[14:07] <costyn> and collegue just brought ice cream
[14:10] <daveake> mmmm Ice Cream
[14:10] <daveake> Permission in now for Sunday. Not that I was panicing at all ....
[14:11] <Randomskk> hah
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[14:18] <gonzo_> when did you put in the application?
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[14:19] <daveake> Not mine - the scout leader put it in - but early June IIRC
[14:20] <daveake> Though the location and date were changed on Tuesday :D
[14:23] <gonzo_> Hmmm, Put in for one for a three weekend slots. And this weekend would be the 2nd of them
[14:23] <daveake> No reply?
[14:24] <gonzo_> nothing
[14:24] <daveake> Have you put applications in before?
[14:24] <gonzo_> no this would have been the 1st. Emailed in 28days before
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[14:25] <daveake> I think a phone reminder is worth it, say on the Wednesday before the first weekend you're requested
[14:26] <daveake> After the first it seems less problematic
[14:26] <daveake> The scout leader put "with Dave Akerman" on the application; wonder if that helped :p
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[14:27] <gonzo_> well have written it off now. Will try again for september
[14:28] <gonzo_> If I hear early next week, then may try next weekend.
[14:29] <daveake> This application was originally for tomorrow, but the prediction was for a wet landing. Sunday is much better, and we swapped to a more inland site too
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[14:31] <gonzo_> The lack of response will probably give me more chance to get things ready i suppose
[14:31] <daveake> true :)
[14:32] <gonzo_> in reality it will just mean the unprepared last minute panic will be later in the year!
[14:33] <daveake> I didn't want to say it :D
[14:34] <daveake> I'm beginning to get to the stage where I don't panic, but I doubt I'll ever reach Steve's Zen-like level of calm
[14:37] <nigelvh> Never quite "one with the payload"?
[14:38] <daveake> :)
[14:38] <daveake> It's the nagging feeling I've forgotten something vital
[14:38] <gonzo_> not enough brown sauce on the bacon butty
[14:38] <gonzo_> the balloon!
[14:38] <daveake> Done that
[14:39] <daveake> Goof job my usual launch site is 200m from home
[14:39] <daveake> Good
[14:39] <nigelvh> Handy for you.
[14:39] <daveake> Or maybe not ...
[14:39] <nigelvh> Mine is about 150 miles from home.
[14:39] <gonzo_> that's what I did for our first pico attempt
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[15:26] <gonzo_> souns good enough
[15:26] <gonzo_> oops, wrong chan
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[15:46] <nosebleedkt_> ſ
[15:46] <nosebleedkt_> yo
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[16:16] <nosebleedkt_> silent hill
[16:17] <nosebleedkt_> where is james burton?
[16:17] <nosebleedkt_> :p
[16:17] <Darkside> lol
[16:17] <Darkside> dunno
[16:17] <nosebleedkt_> i missed him
[16:18] <Laurenceb> hmmm
[16:18] <Darkside> hrm
[16:18] <Darkside> latest email on the list
[16:18] <Darkside> writing a response atm..
[16:18] <Laurenceb> ¬_¬
[16:18] <Darkside> there should be a technical barrier to entry
[16:19] <nigelvh> I agree.
[16:20] <nigelvh> In the way that the person wanting to fly a payload actually has to put something together (with help is ok), rather than buying a complete tracker from XYZ store.\
[16:20] <Darkside> sent
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[17:35] <OZ1SKY_Brian> hi
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[18:40] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[19:01] <Lunar_Lander> I got a once and for all question
[19:01] <Lunar_Lander> on the Yaesu FT790-R, what dial setting corresponds to 434.075 MHz?
[19:02] <Lunar_Lander> is it 4.075.0 ?
[19:02] <number10> once and for all... that means no more questions ever Lunar_Lander
[19:02] <Lunar_Lander> no, I mean just for that topic of frequency settings
[19:02] <daveake> A rather specific topic!
[19:03] <daveake> Anyway, the answer is Yes
[19:04] <gb73d> http://www.redbullstratos.com/
[19:04] <Lunar_Lander> thanks
[19:04] <Lunar_Lander> yeah he made it!
[19:04] <gb73d> how about jumping off s HAB w chute !
[19:04] <gb73d> lol
[19:04] <gb73d> hope he breaks the rec
[19:04] <gb73d> i have seen the USAF footage from the 50s
[19:04] <gb73d> incredible
[19:05] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[19:05] <Lunar_Lander> it was 1960
[19:05] <Lunar_Lander> :P
[19:05] <gb73d> yeah
[19:05] Action: LazyLeopard likes that the guy who did that jump is on the team.
[19:05] <Lunar_Lander> yeah Kittinger you mean
[19:06] <gb73d> thats right
[19:06] <gb73d> the man who fell to earth
[19:06] <gb73d> literally
[19:06] <Lunar_Lander> there was a middle aged lady on the bus and she had the city newspaper and there was a photo of one of the zero-pressure balloons just before launch and I wondered what balloon project would make the papers
[19:06] <Lunar_Lander> and then I looked it up and found that it was that
[19:07] <Lunar_Lander> but it even wasn't on Google News when you just go on that
[19:07] <Lunar_Lander> had to search for Baumgartner
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[19:12] <radim_> good evening to everyone
[19:14] <radim_> may I have one question regarding tracker ?
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[19:19] <mclane> go ahead radim
[19:19] <radim_> hi mclane!
[19:19] <mclane> hi
[19:20] <radim_> I would like to test my payload in spacenear.us tracker. Ho w can I register my callsign to it ?
[19:21] <daveake> You need to create a payload doc first, at http://habitat.habhub.org/genpayload/
[19:21] <mclane> go to http://habhub.org/genpayload answer the questions and send the result to e.e daveake
[19:21] <daveake> noooo not me !
[19:21] <daveake> I'm not honoured with access :)
[19:22] <radim_> I found it, but I don't know what to do with the final doc line.
[19:22] <fsphil> Lunar_Lander: the 43 is assumed on the 790
[19:22] <Lunar_Lander> OK
[19:22] <daveake> upload the result to pastebin the post the link here
[19:22] <fsphil> so yea, 434.650 would be 4.650.0
[19:22] <Lunar_Lander> thanks
[19:23] <radim_> OK, guys, I'll try it , many thanks !!!
[19:28] <chrisstubbs> Does a test payload show to everyone on spacenear.us? I would like to do some tests of my tracker code soon but dont want to annoy everyone by constantly having my balloon bobbing about!
[19:29] <daveake> yes, but so long as no-one's flyng it doesn't matter
[19:30] <chrisstubbs> Ok, well i will test as much as i can on my own but i would like to try it with spacenearus some time. Thanks :)
[19:31] <daveake> When you're done if you ask here someone can clear your test from the tracker. It gets cleared before a flight anyway.
[19:34] <Lunar_Lander> YAY
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[20:04] <OZ1SKY_Brian> Now why didnt anyone put a payload on the olympic ballons that where just launched :-)
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[20:12] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[20:12] <Lunar_Lander> hi OZ1SKY_Brian
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[20:13] <OZ1SKY_Brian> mojn lunar
[20:14] <Lunar_Lander> how are you?
[20:15] <OZ1SKY_Brian> fine here, havent been paying much attention on habs lately, have there been some good launches or floaters?
[20:18] <Lunar_Lander> well there have been some launches
[20:19] <Lunar_Lander> the EURUS attempt at an east-west-crossing of the atlantic didn't work
[20:19] <Lunar_Lander> on the first flight, the transmissions ended suddenly on the Irish coast when it was supposed to switch to a 100 mW transmitter
[20:19] <Lunar_Lander> and the second one did not launch as two balloons were damaged by wind before launch
[20:22] <eroomde> Laurenceb__ or Laurenceb : ping
[20:23] <Laurenceb__> yo
[20:23] <Lunar_Lander> OZ1SKY_Brian, but today a rocket of Copenhagen Suborbitals flew?
[20:23] Nick change: Laurenceb__ -> Laurenceb_
[20:25] <OZ1SKY_Brian> Lunar_Lander yes thats right, didnt get to see it, was at work, a shame since im a sponsor :-)
[20:25] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[20:25] <Lunar_Lander> oh the rocket broke up?
[20:26] <Lunar_Lander> Copenhagen Post says that
[20:28] <OZ1SKY_Brian> only saw abit on the news, they didnt realy show any video, just some pictures. So dont know much
[20:28] <Lunar_Lander> oh ok
[20:28] <Laurenceb_> eroomde: pong
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[20:29] <nigelvh> Post says the nosecone crushed, which we've had happen, the breakup happens pretty quickly.
[20:30] <Lunar_Lander> yea
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[20:31] <OZ1SKY_Brian> sadly they havent had much luck lately, but its called learn by doing i gess
[20:32] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[20:32] <Lunar_Lander> this is my HAB http://s.gullipics.com/image/d/4/2/5yvm6j-jabl44-uklb/IMG0280.jpeg
[20:33] <eroomde> Laurenceb_: yo
[20:33] <Laurenceb_> hi
[20:33] <eroomde> you're allowed one guess as to why i might be asking this
[20:33] <OZ1SKY_Brian> nice lunar, going to fly that soon?
[20:33] <Laurenceb_> altimeter
[20:33] <eroomde> what do you know about turning costas loops and DLLs?
[20:33] <Lunar_Lander> hopefully yes
[20:33] <eroomde> tuning*
[20:34] <Laurenceb_> not a lot
[20:34] <Laurenceb_> ive made it work once for gps, using kai borre code
[20:34] <Lunar_Lander> it can already transmit sensor data and today we made the logging too!
[20:34] <Laurenceb_> so ive never done it from scratch
[20:34] <Lunar_Lander> and we configured the 808 camera
[20:34] <nigelvh> Nice progress Lunar_Lander
[20:34] <Lunar_Lander> and we tested the cutdown MOSFET
[20:34] <Lunar_Lander> this time the arduino could actuate the mosfet and the wire started to glow and so on
[20:34] <Lunar_Lander> thanks
[20:34] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[20:35] <OZ1SKY_Brian> nice lunar, that i might have a chance to hear, if it goes high
[20:35] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[20:35] Action: Laurenceb_ is currently trying to make blackmagic link to codesourcery libs so he can hack a backmagic out of a maple board
[20:35] <Lunar_Lander> OZ1SKY_Brian, nigelvh https://github.com/WinzenFlyer
[20:35] <Laurenceb_> or even an arduino for that matter
[20:36] <nigelvh> blackmagic is often a tough beast to wrangle
[20:36] <radim_> hi everyone again, could I please somebody to insert my payload doc into the tracker ? :-) http://pastebin.com/nG5vqETS many thanks !
[20:36] <eroomde> ah ok
[20:36] <eroomde> i'm trying to do it from scratch
[20:36] <eroomde> it was all going pretty well
[20:36] <eroomde> but it's like a 4d space i'm trying to find a solution in
[20:37] <Laurenceb_> eww
[20:37] <eroomde> without properlly grokking the dynamics
[20:37] <eroomde> so it's frustrating
[20:37] <Laurenceb_> Borres book has a nice simple into
[20:37] <eroomde> link me to the book?
[20:37] <OZ1SKY_Brian> Lunar_Lander 467km los to osnabrück, so a good chance to pick something up.
[20:37] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[20:38] <Laurenceb_> http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=x2g6XTEkb8oC&dq=kai+borre+gps&source=bl&ots=cTpL_sGcRU&sig=GoRzFRgdfBnH3_qOsowuHDmjdn8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=IvwSUOCUCpSZ0QW5k4DYAg&redir_esc=y
[20:38] <Lunar_Lander> OZ1SKY_Brian, I learned something however
[20:38] <eroomde> ta
[20:38] <Lunar_Lander> define all pins!
[20:38] <Lunar_Lander> I didn't define the pin the blue LED was hooked up to as an output
[20:38] <Lunar_Lander> and it was really dim
[20:38] <Lunar_Lander> after I did that it was bright :)
[20:38] <OZ1SKY_Brian> :)
[20:39] <Lunar_Lander> the blue LED is coupled to the transmitter software
[20:39] <Lunar_Lander> i.e. it flashes when RTTY is transmitted
[20:39] Action: Laurenceb_ imagines that knowone would be interested in blackmagic on arduino
[20:39] <Lunar_Lander> the green one is coupled directly to the power rail
[20:39] <Laurenceb_> *no-one
[20:39] <Lunar_Lander> olympics uz uz uz uz olympics uz uz uz uz olympics uz uz uz uz olympics uz uz uz uz olympics uz uz uz uz
[20:39] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[20:40] <Laurenceb_> while(1){ printf("omg olympics omg olympics");}
[20:40] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[20:40] <Lunar_Lander> OZ1SKY_Brian, the lower left corner will carry the cutdown stuff
[20:40] <Lunar_Lander> like a lipoly socket, the MOSFET and screw terminals
[20:41] <nigelvh> Here's a picture of something the local tv station showed during the winter olympics a few years ago.
[20:41] <nigelvh> http://digitalnigel.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/CIMG01371.jpg
[20:42] <Lunar_Lander> ROFL
[20:42] <OZ1SKY_Brian> Lunar_Lander not a cutdown fan, so dont tell me anything more about that :-)
[20:42] <Lunar_Lander> oh ok
[20:42] <nigelvh> Title Here, Subtitle Here. WOOO Go King 5 TV!
[20:42] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[20:42] <nigelvh> On top of those powerpoint presentations down there at the station.
[20:43] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[20:43] <OZ1SKY_Brian> Lunar_Lander cutdown will mean i can forget about hearing any ballons, as they will most likely be out of range when the cutdown happens, meaning the end of allmost all floaters :-)
[20:43] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[20:43] <Lunar_Lander> well ours is just for like when it approaches the sea or so
[20:44] <Lunar_Lander> and the first time we will limit the altitude to something like 25 km
[20:45] <OZ1SKY_Brian> 25km alt should make it possible to hear here
[20:45] <Lunar_Lander> yea
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[20:46] <OZ1SKY_Brian> signal should reach here at around 12km alt
[20:46] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[20:46] <OZ1SKY_Brian> if launched over osnabrück
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[20:46] <nigelvh> Just let the balloon drift a few thousand km either east or west and I'll listen for it here too!
[20:50] <fsphil> is there something going on somewhere else?
[20:51] <OZ1SKY_Brian> in london i think :-)
[20:52] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[20:52] <Lunar_Lander> the flag that will fly on the balloon: http://s.gullipics.com/image/8/l/v/5yvm6j-jabm2y-nkr5/IMG0283.jpeg
[20:53] <OZ1SKY_Brian> Lunar_Lander now that could be a problem
[20:53] <Lunar_Lander> why?
[20:53] <OZ1SKY_Brian> remember, a flag must never touch the ground
[20:54] <BrainDamage> just incinerate it before it does, problem solved
[20:54] <OZ1SKY_Brian> so you can forget all about your cutdown stuff right now :)
[20:55] <Lunar_Lander> oh
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[20:56] <OZ1SKY_Brian> unless it lands somewhere outside EU, then its not going to course a problem
[20:58] <fsphil> I forgot about that actually, will iplayer it later
[20:58] <radim_> is here somebody who can help me with tracker doc upload ? :-)
[21:02] <Lunar_Lander> OZ1SKY_Brian, xD
[21:06] <OZ1SKY_Brian> jokes aside, good luck, looking forward to hearing it
[21:07] <Lunar_Lander> thanks :)
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[21:14] <Lunar_Lander> predictions for tomorrow would fly almost directly due north
[21:15] <Lunar_Lander> OZ1SKY_Brian,
[21:15] <Lunar_Lander> http://habhub.org/predict/#!/uuid=8d8f0c394cbda5d9b4952d14ca1b8d6b588a34cc
[21:16] <Lunar_Lander> it would be possible!
[21:16] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[21:16] <Lunar_Lander> damn would still land in the sea
[21:16] <Lunar_Lander> didn't zoom in enough
[21:17] <OZ1SKY_Brian> yeah too much water here if you want to recover
[21:18] <OZ1SKY_Brian> you cant get further from the coast than 52 km anywhere in Denmark
[21:18] <Lunar_Lander> oh
[21:19] <Lunar_Lander> http://habhub.org/predict/#!/uuid=e2e6bcbcc7a7e86120acdf1581ad2248a8f49706
[21:19] <Lunar_Lander> xD S
[21:30] <fsphil> you flying tomorrow Lunar_Lander?
[21:30] <Lunar_Lander> no
[21:30] <Lunar_Lander> just checking out the predictions
[21:35] <radim_> Lunar, I wish for our flight something like that :-) http://habhub.org/predict/#!/uuid=f6ffdcbe4550a9b236c312b1aea3caa4c28cf0e5
[21:36] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[21:38] <Lunar_Lander> so you are from Slovakia?
[21:39] <radim_> yes Lander, in prediction is our planned start location for september's flight
[21:39] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[21:39] <Lunar_Lander> cool!
[21:40] <radim_> heh, here is today's prediction for Czech meteo sonde balloon flight from chmi.cz http://forum.radiosonda.sk/download/file.php?id=1664&mode=view
[21:44] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[21:44] <Lunar_Lander> boomerang
[21:45] <radim_> yes :-D I think we all wish such flight trajectory
[21:45] <Lunar_Lander> yeah :D
[21:46] <Lunar_Lander> and your forum uses SondeMonitor to track the weather bureau sondes?
[21:47] <radim_> yes, we are using sondemonitor. We ahve also our own tracker for meteo sondes http://katanganet.dyndns.org/trackme/test2.html
[21:47] <radim_> ...have, sorry
[21:48] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[21:48] <Lunar_Lander> do you also try to find the sondes?
[21:49] <radim_> yes, of course, it's very funny game :-)
[21:49] <Lunar_Lander> OHHH there is a sonde in eastern austria
[21:49] <Lunar_Lander> is that LIVE?
[21:49] <radim_> and very good practice for our flight
[21:49] <radim_> yes, it's live
[21:49] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[21:49] <Lunar_Lander> what do the green and the blue balloons mean?
[21:50] <radim_> Vienna is starting meteo sondes 4 times per day currently
[21:50] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[21:50] <radim_> blue - ascend, grean descend
[21:50] <Lunar_Lander> oh so it's about to land again
[21:52] <radim_> that sonde landed already - FRM: 7404 2012-07-27 21:29:22 (UTC time)
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[21:53] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[21:54] <radim_> you can check that tracker during the day, you can see 3 - 4 sondes in air. (Vienna times for starts 6, 12, 18, 0 UTC)
[21:54] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[21:54] <DanielRichman> radim_: I can upload a document for you
[21:54] <Lunar_Lander> that means they fly in about an hour again?
[21:55] <radim_> exact times for Vienna for example are about 20 minutes before whole hour, so the next one will start about 23:40 UTC ;-)
[21:55] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[21:55] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[21:58] <Lunar_Lander> radim_, does katanganet have a special meaning as a name?
[21:58] <radim_> Lunar, just one bonus link for you - one of the last found radiosonde from Vienna http://forum.radiosonda.sk/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=347
[21:59] <Lunar_Lander> cool Vaisala RS-92!
[22:02] <OZ1SKY_Brian> Lunar_Lander http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/07/smaragd-launch-by-copenhagen-suborbitals-first-short-video/
[22:02] <Lunar_Lander> cool!
[22:02] <Lunar_Lander> radim_, still there?
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[22:05] <Lunar_Lander> OZ1SKY_Brian, the slowmo in the end shows one problem
[22:05] <Lunar_Lander> the rocket like leaves the course almost immediatley
[22:08] <OZ1SKY_Brian> yes
[22:14] <natrium42> hi k3v1n
[22:15] <griffonbot> @ChinaUSFocus: Thanks for following! #ff @GoergeKoo @RichardWoellner @RussHickson @thats_mandarin @hervasyasociado @e_IR @shabnamlone Share #CUSF! #ff [http://twitter.com/ChinaUSFocus/status/228976832089837570]
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[22:17] <Lunar_Lander> hi natrium42
[22:17] <natrium42> what's new? did you fix your code?
[22:19] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:27] <natrium42> kuhl
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[22:41] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[22:41] <OZ1SKY_Brian> gn all
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[23:33] <griffonbot> @e_IR: RT @ChinaUSFocus: Thanks for following! #ff @GoergeKoo @RichardWoellner @RussHickson @thats_mandarin @hervasyasociado @e_IR @shabnamlone ... [http://twitter.com/e_IR/status/228996594610106369]
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[23:38] <chris_99> olympic logo in near space :)
[23:38] <Randomskk> !
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[23:39] <daveake> OK who did that then? :)
[23:39] <chris_99> heh, i'm curious too
[23:39] <Laurenceb_> was that the iss?
[23:39] <daveake> I know who didn't do it :)
[23:39] <Laurenceb_> looked too low
[23:39] <Randomskk> yea i wonder
[23:40] <Randomskk> Laurenceb_: no
[23:40] <Laurenceb_> they have an unhealthy obsession with blue leds?
[23:40] <Randomskk> the hab they released at ceremony start
[23:40] <Laurenceb_> seriously
[23:40] <Laurenceb_> wut
[23:40] <daveake> Not naming names, but I know someone here was asked to do it, and turned them down
[23:40] <Laurenceb_> thats live?!
[23:40] <daveake> It may not have been the same one
[23:40] Action: Laurenceb_ confused
[23:41] <natrium42> wat
[23:41] <Laurenceb_> <Randomskk> the hab they released at ceremony start
[23:41] <daveake> AIUI the video was recorded
[23:41] <Randomskk> doubt live
[23:41] <Laurenceb_> come again?
[23:41] <Randomskk> had hours
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[23:42] <jcoxon> Who did that...
[23:42] <Laurenceb_> so they launched one just prior to the ceremony?
[23:42] <jcoxon> Knew Steve was up to something!
[23:42] <priyesh> it was launched right at the start
[23:43] <daveake> AIUI not the same one
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[23:43] <daveake> Or from the same place
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[23:43] <mattbrejza> http://imgur.com/99UKP
[23:44] <Laurenceb_> so what time did they launch?
[23:45] <priyesh> 9pm bst
[23:45] <mattbrejza> not convinced
[23:45] <mattbrejza> no swinging also
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[23:45] <Laurenceb_> hmm
[23:45] <Laurenceb_> sun is very low
[23:46] <mattbrejza> too low of the iss?
[23:46] <Laurenceb_> yes
[23:46] Action: LazyLeopard noticed a balloon being launched, but ...
[23:47] <Randomskk> they said it was carrying the rings as it launched
[23:47] <Laurenceb_> i only watched the last hour
[23:47] <Laurenceb_> im not that sad
[23:47] <priyesh> you could see the rings upon launch
[23:47] <Laurenceb_> anyone got a sceengrab?
[23:47] <priyesh> i thinl there were 4 balloons
[23:48] <priyesh> im going to say prerecorded
[23:48] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[23:48] <mattbrejza> the quality too high for live video?
[23:48] <mattbrejza> well
[23:48] <mattbrejza> not impossible
[23:48] <Laurenceb_> i dare say the bbc could arrange a link
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[23:49] <Randomskk> it could have landed and recovered in this time
[23:49] <Laurenceb_> some long range version of the standard microwave kit
[23:49] <Randomskk> someone run a prediction
[23:49] <Randomskk> should have done that when they launched
[23:50] <mattbrejza> look at the server logs from the predictor, anyone being predicting a 9pm london launch?
[23:50] <jcoxon> surely its too dark
[23:50] <LazyLeopard> ;)
[23:51] <Laurenceb_> well the sun is low on the screengrab
[23:51] <mattbrejza> yea thats what i thought
[23:51] <jcoxon> steve hinted he was up to something
[23:51] <Randomskk> he did indeed
[23:51] <Laurenceb_> its _just_ credible
[23:51] <Laurenceb_> the angle of the sun etc
[23:52] <mattbrejza> http://imgur.com/TVUgi
[23:52] <mattbrejza> it wasnt from that balloon
[23:52] <mattbrejza> there were 4 of them
[23:53] <Randomskk> no camera
[23:53] <Randomskk> on that balloon
[23:54] <mattbrejza> looking at the other ones (low res) i cant see any camera
[23:54] <mattbrejza> there would probably be a largish box
[23:54] <mattbrejza> bearing in mind the transmitter and antenna wouldnt be that small
[23:54] <mattbrejza> http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/2012/live-video/bbc_one_2012_hd
[23:54] <Laurenceb_> there may be a camera
[23:54] <Laurenceb_> hard to say
[23:54] <mattbrejza> at 8:00
[23:55] <jcoxon> he'll explain 'm sure tomorrow
[23:55] <daveake> Busy here for 1am :D
[23:55] <jcoxon> night all
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[23:55] <mattbrejza> when did steve last launch?
[23:56] <Randomskk> guessing that one didnt go on the tracker
[23:56] <number10> balloons landing near me http://habhub.org/predict/#!/uuid=734072dcff922481459b6458de0d9830d42d0899
[23:57] <mattbrejza> well could have been from july 6th
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[23:57] <daveake> Well if Steve turns up in a shiny new 4x4 next launch, we'll know :D
[23:58] <Randomskk> haha
[23:58] <Randomskk> yup
[23:58] <Randomskk> sounds like he may have supplied all the ones they had at thr start
[23:59] <Randomskk> typical chinese balloons
[23:59] <Randomskk> never burst when you want them to
[23:59] <Laurenceb_> lol
[23:59] <Laurenceb_> looks its become part of the bbc news 24 intro
[23:59] <Laurenceb_> brilliant
[00:00] --- Sat Jul 28 2012