highaltitude.log.20120723

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[07:19] <nosebleedkt> lol
[07:19] <nosebleedkt> just sew 5 new telemetries in aprs.fi
[07:19] <nosebleedkt> from main system
[07:20] <nosebleedkt> well guys
[07:20] <nosebleedkt> you must see them and make some thougts
[07:20] <nosebleedkt> thoughts
[07:21] <Upu> still getting location information from it ?
[07:21] <nosebleedkt> when crashlanded it was still sending
[07:21] <nosebleedkt> and some station received it
[07:22] <Upu> whats the last coordinates ?
[07:22] <nosebleedkt> http://pastebin.com/vy1TduLK
[07:24] <nosebleedkt> http://pastebin.com/8B7VmTcy
[07:24] <nosebleedkt> see the 2nd
[07:24] <nosebleedkt> come on guys
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[07:24] <nosebleedkt> make some thoughts
[07:24] <nosebleedkt> from your experience
[07:24] <nosebleedkt> fsphil!
[07:24] <fsphil> morning nosebleedkt
[07:24] <nosebleedkt> man i found 5 new telemetries
[07:24] <nosebleedkt> http://pastebin.com/8B7VmTcy
[07:24] <nosebleedkt> after crashlanding
[07:25] <fsphil> how'd you manage that?
[07:25] <nosebleedkt> I had aprs.fi showing first 300
[07:25] <Upu> ok the answer to that is easy
[07:25] <nosebleedkt> now I put it first 500
[07:25] <nosebleedkt> and showed up more
[07:25] <Upu> get something like MotionX GPS on the your iphone
[07:26] <Upu> tape those coordinates in
[07:26] <Upu> and follow the arrow
[07:26] <Upu> and i suspect look up alot
[07:26] <daveake> I use HamGPS on my Android for that. pAVA would still be in the jungle without it.
[07:26] <Upu> its just off a track
[07:28] <Upu> right back later
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[07:34] <nosebleedkt> it was trasmitting the next da
[07:35] <nosebleedkt> y
[07:35] <nosebleedkt> omg
[07:35] <jcoxon> nosebleedkt, you got it back yet?
[07:35] <fsphil> who was receiving it?
[07:35] <nosebleedkt> http://aprs.fi/?c=raw&call=SV7MKT-11&limit=25&view=normal
[07:35] <nosebleedkt> check last 5 messages
[07:36] <fsphil> neat-- you must have caught a little propagation
[07:36] <nosebleedkt> the new point it 30meters away from the last point
[07:37] <fsphil> so it's definitely there
[07:37] <nosebleedkt> 30meters in the woods
[07:37] <jcoxon> oh thats quite a remote landing point
[07:37] <jcoxon> they'll be some drift from the GPS
[07:37] <jcoxon> especially if it hasn't got a very good lock
[07:37] <fsphil> quite a walk from the road
[07:38] <nosebleedkt> old point: 40.8413,23.408
[07:38] <nosebleedkt> from backup system
[07:38] <nosebleedkt> new point: 40.8413,23.4084
[07:38] <nosebleedkt> from ublox
[07:38] <nosebleedkt> that last 4, is 30 meters distance man
[07:39] <fsphil> those last few are probably more accurate than the gsm module
[07:40] <fsphil> but at least you have a smaller area to look now
[07:40] <fsphil> although that someone is still receiving it suggests it's in a tree
[07:41] <daveake> The fact that all the points are at trees, suggests it's in a tree!
[07:41] <fsphil> SV7MKT-11 is quite far from any forests
[07:41] <fsphil> oh wait, that's the balloon callsign
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[07:47] <fsphil> another trip to the forest in the near future then nosebleedkt?
[07:50] <nosebleedkt> YES
[07:51] <nosebleedkt> everybody knows me in that village
[07:51] <nosebleedkt> and wwants to help me get the ufo as they say
[07:51] <nosebleedkt> and they call me the ufo hunter lol
[07:51] <fsphil> lol
[07:51] <MrScienceMan> lol
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[07:53] <jcoxon> nosebleedkt, will you launch another balloon in the future?
[07:53] <MrScienceMan> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9We2XsVZfc#t=10s
[07:56] <nosebleedkt> jcoxon: if i find this one, I will launch new but after much time.
[07:56] <nosebleedkt> if i dont find this, I will launch for sure
[07:57] <jcoxon> yay
[07:57] <daveake> That's HAB for you: Either you want to repeat the success, or forget the failure
[07:57] <Darkside> haha
[07:58] <fsphil> failure? what failure? :)
[07:58] <daveake> tr.....tre......t...... no, can't say it
[07:58] <Darkside> ocean.
[07:58] <Darkside> new south wales.
[07:58] <Darkside> ocean.
[07:58] <fsphil> I have never landed in the ocean. ever.
[07:58] <fsphil> it was a sea
[07:59] <daveake> lol
[07:59] <Darkside> haha
[07:59] <daveake> I've managed the north sea and the English Channel, and both from the same launch site
[07:59] Action: eroomde spits some tobacco on the ground
[07:59] <Darkside> we're about to get schooled by the master
[07:59] <eroomde> time was, a man couldn't launch a hab with any idea wehter he gonna geet er back
[07:59] <Darkside> he's lost balloons EVERYWHERE
[07:59] <daveake> :D
[08:01] <eroomde> we looked at the jet stream forcasts on wunderground (interactive map, gps model, 200mBar')
[08:01] <eroomde> then had a reckon, as if we knew what we were talking about
[08:01] <eroomde> gfs*
[08:01] <eroomde> pinkey-blue was ok
[08:01] <eroomde> blue was bad
[08:01] <eroomde> pink was good
[08:02] <jcoxon> i miss those days
[08:02] <jcoxon> of reading weather maps
[08:02] <jcoxon> pink was always good
[08:02] <daveake> And you try and tell the young people of today that, and they'll never believe you
[08:02] <eroomde> does this work? http://www.wunderground.com/wundermap/?zoom=4&rad=0&wxsn=0&svr=0&cams=0&sat=0&riv=0&mm=1&mm.mdl=GFS&mm.type=SURPRE&mm.hour=0&mm.opa=100&mm.clk=0&hur=0&fire=0&tor=0&ndfd=0&pix=0&dir=0&ads=0&tfk=0&fodors=0&ski=0&ls=0&rad2=0
[08:02] <eroomde> they've tarted up their interface
[08:03] <eroomde> but yes, we'd look at that and see that east anglia was pinky purple = ok to launch probably
[08:04] <eroomde> sometimes you'd just get a huge sea of pink over the uk, and we'd all be on the phone to each other (didn;t have internet in those days)
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[08:04] <eroomde> LAUNCH!!
[08:04] <jcoxon> today woud be good if you look at 200mb
[08:04] <eroomde> yeah
[08:04] <eroomde> not so good for fsphil
[08:05] <fsphil> it rarely is :)
[08:05] <daveake> just as well he doesn't have a notam yet*
[08:05] <fsphil> ahem
[08:05] <daveake> * I don't knoe; just guessing
[08:05] <fsphil> yea, DM working for me
[08:05] <daveake> :)
[08:05] <jcoxon> eroomde, you coming to the conference?
[08:05] <fsphil> I'm sure he checks the predictions each day, and decides to delay it just a little bit until it's better
[08:06] <eroomde> jcoxon: yes
[08:06] <eroomde> i need top pay don;t i
[08:06] <eroomde> sorry been slacing
[08:06] <daveake> Please don't have a phall the night before
[08:06] <jcoxon> http://randomaerospace.com/ukhas/2012_UKHAS_conference_payments/Pay_Here.html
[08:06] <eroomde> i am so not having one of those again
[08:06] <fsphil> um yea
[08:06] <eroomde> ever
[08:06] <fsphil> you survived the morning after
[08:07] <eroomde> sorry to be unpleasant so early in the morn, but i had to have another shower again this morning
[08:07] <eroomde> after the phall round 2
[08:07] <daveake> return of the phall
[08:08] <eroomde> jcoxon: paid
[08:08] <fsphil> the phall of night
[08:08] <eroomde> phallow the yellow brick road
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[08:08] <jcoxon> thanks!
[08:08] <daveake> A Bridge Too Phall
[08:09] <daveake> very yellow I imagine
[08:09] <fsphil> anyway
[08:09] <daveake> jcoxon how many so far for the conf?
[08:09] <fsphil> :p
[08:10] <jcoxon> 24
[08:10] <daveake> 22 on the pay list
[08:10] <daveake> cool
[08:10] <fsphil> I'd better get organised
[08:10] <daveake> Thought it would be more by now
[08:11] <jcoxon> this happened last time
[08:11] <daveake> Hell or high water I'm not going to miss it this year
[08:11] <fsphil> it's london, so it may be both
[08:11] <daveake> true
[08:11] <fsphil> hoping for weather as good as last time
[08:12] <fsphil> that was the only bit of summer I saw that year ;)
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[08:12] <eroomde> one of the peeps i had curry with last night is a dubliner
[08:13] <eroomde> she doesn;t understand why everyone in england has been complaining that the weather is so bad
[08:14] <fsphil> the southern coast there does seem to get generally better weather than anywhere else
[08:15] <fsphil> at least from the few times I've been there
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[09:16] <griffonbot> Received email: MikeB "Re: [UKHAS] Insurance"
[09:16] <griffonbot> Received email: PhilipM "Re: [UKHAS] Insurance"
[09:16] <griffonbot> Received email: Peter Browne "[UKHAS] Fwd: balloon Insurance"
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[09:49] <olivier58> nous avons eu une superbe météo dans la semaine du 14/07/2012 au 21/07/2012 inclus mais nous n'avons pas eu le matériel et le temps pour effectuer ce tout premier lâchée de ballon. pour le premier lâchée il seffectuera dans le dép 58 la ville de départ vous serra communiqué en temps est en heure. veuillez nous excusée de ce petit retard de réponse pour ceux et celle qui attendez ces lâchées de ballons.
[09:50] <griffonbot> Received email: PhilipM "[UKHAS] Re: Pressure"
[09:50] <Darkside> english please
[09:50] <Upu> hey olivier58 probably best with English on here, not sure how many speak French
[09:50] <Upu> your launching a balloon ?
[09:50] <olivier58> i'm speak bad english dear friend
[09:51] <eroomde> olivier58: stay here
[09:51] <Upu> haha @ Google Translate :
[09:51] <Upu> we had a beautiful weather during the week of 14/07/2012 to 21/07/2012 included but we have not had the equipment and time to complete this first dropped ball. for the first released it will be done in the dept 58 departure city you shook release time is in hours. please apologized for this small delay in response to those who wait and those that dropped balls.
[09:51] <nick_> I speak worse French :)
[09:51] <Upu> dropped balls :)
[09:51] <daveake> beat me to it :D
[09:51] <eroomde> give me a minute to try and understand your message
[09:51] <eroomde> oh right fine gogle to the rescue
[09:51] <olivier58> we had a beautiful weather during the week of 14/07/2012 to 21/07/2012 included but we have not had the equipment and time to complete this first dropped ball. for the first released it will be done in the dept 58 departure city you shook release time is in hours. please apologized for this small delay in response to those who wait and those that dropped balls.
[09:52] <fsphil> google translate is either fantastic or hilarious
[09:52] <eroomde> olivier58: which city in dept 58?
[09:52] <Upu> Temps. date. Lieu. Veuillez lancer hors et la fréquence
[09:52] <olivier58> no ballon sonde or météo
[09:52] <daveake> According to Google Translate on one of the RPi stories, I'm the father of an astronaut
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[09:53] <Upu> de lancement ...
[09:53] <kokey> daveake: you're buzz' dad?
[09:53] <nick_> I wish I could still speak French.
[09:53] <Upu> where is F5AGV when you need him
[09:53] <daveake> No this was the Pi payload
[09:53] <nick_> You'd have thought living in a French speaking country for ~2 years would help, but no :(
[09:53] <daveake> And apparently we "throw payloads to 30km"
[09:53] <fsphil> sadly forgot all my french too :/
[09:53] <Upu> where they explode
[09:53] <daveake> yup
[09:54] <daveake> and the pi is a mini-micro-pico-neat computer
[09:54] <olivier58> http://lacher-de-ballon.wall.fm/index
[09:54] <kokey> I lived in Gibraltar for over 3 years
[09:54] <kokey> didn't bother to learn Spanish
[09:54] <kokey> Gibraltar is English anyway, I wasn't living in Spain
[09:55] <Upu> Où êtes-vous de lancer votre ballon de? A quelle heure vous lancer? Quelle est la date lancez-vous? Quelle est la fréquence est le ballon et ce qui est de la transmettre? RTTY / APRS?
[09:55] <fsphil> is this a sonde launch from france?
[09:55] <fsphil> I don't recall any before
[09:55] <costyn> kokey: I had no idea Gibraltar was part of England until I saw this documentary Worlds 10 scariest airports, apparently Gibraltar is scary as hell to land :)
[09:56] <kokey> costyn: yeah it's quite an experience, almost every time
[09:56] <kokey> costyn: and just to make it stranger, the cars drive over the runway and has to stop for landings
[09:56] <costyn> part of the problem apparently is that the Spanish don't like the planes going through their airspace
[09:56] <fsphil> !!
[09:56] <costyn> aah yea.... remember that now... there's a major road going through the runway haha
[09:57] <kokey> costyn: yeah, so if the wind if from the east, it has to loop through the bay and straighten up just before landing
[09:58] <kokey> costyn: which goes a bit weird since while you are doing the curve, the rock of gibraltar blocks the wind, so just before it has to be straigthened out it suddenly hits the wind again
[09:58] <Darkside> http://goo.gl/maps/ICg9
[09:58] <Darkside> the hell
[09:58] <costyn> Darkside: haa
[09:58] <Upu> lol
[09:59] <olivier58> pour le moment pas de date de prévue pour le lancement et il n'y aura pas de fréquence non plus car c'est juste un ballon avec une carte au bout
[09:59] <costyn> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOTuo1vdDkk start at 3:45
[10:00] <kokey> from the other side, the landing is a bit more straightforward, but if it's slightly SW then you get a massive dip in the wind just before hitting the runway while over the sea
[10:00] <kokey> I used to live here... http://goo.gl/maps/VpRt
[10:00] <olivier58> ce ballon retrouvée par une personne nous previendra de son lieux et de l'heure a la quelle il la trouver
[10:01] <kokey> so I could see the runway well from my flat, I could also see all the way to morocco
[10:01] <gonzo_> yep,that's gibralta! They are lucky it doesn't have a cattle grid half way down!
[10:02] <Upu> F6agv@free.fr Oliver électronique s'il vous plaît, il peut se traduire par vous remercier!
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[10:03] <Upu> Darkside is that a micrnut about half way down the page : http://alerte-radiosondes.blogspot.co.uk/
[10:04] <Upu> oh yes it is
[10:04] <costyn> kokey: cool
[10:06] <costyn> anways, World's Most Extreme Airports is a worthwhile documentary that was on the History Channel. Available on youtube and torrents; worth a watch for cringe-worthy footage of landings
[10:06] <kokey> is that hong kong one still in operation?
[10:07] <kokey> there's one on some tropical island too, where the planes land over the beach, but that said in gibraltar it's almost the same on both the eastern and western beaches
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[10:22] <upix> just to be perfectly clear. is baud (in fldigi to be exact) overall bit rate (including start and end bits) and not just data bit rate?
[10:23] <daveake> Yes. Same stuff as RS232
[10:23] <upix> ok, thanks
[10:23] <daveake> So 50 baud --> 20ms between (possible) transitions
[10:26] <upix> Reason I was asking this is because earlier I setup uC, rfm and SDR so they worked perfectly, then after several hours of being off I checked it again and two bytes were being cut off the messages. A day later (now) it's all fine again
[10:26] <upix> no changes were made during that time
[10:26] <upix> so wondering is it software bug or some kind of random conditions
[10:27] <costyn> kokey: no, hong kong has been shut down. And yea St Maarten is the one over the beach. Those airports are featured in that documentary too
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[10:28] <daveake> 2 bytes from the end? i.e. the checksum / linefeed?
[10:29] <daveake> or the beginning?
[10:37] <upix> It's a custom test message
[10:37] <upix> $$SMD,101.N<\n>
[10:37] <daveake> OK, so where are these lost bytes in the message? Random? Same place each time?
[10:38] <upix> where N is 1 to 4
[10:38] <upix> and N<\n> was cut off
[10:38] <upix> allways at the end
[10:38] <upix> it would be like $$SMD,101.$$SMD,101.$$SMD,101.
[10:39] <daveake> If you have a 'scope or logic analyser, it's always woth checking the timing, but that sounds more like a bug
[10:40] <upix> well I am using scope and it seems to be more or less accurate (~20ms between signal transitions)
[10:40] <upix> but it's a soundcard scope
[10:41] <upix> any idea how strict fldigi is
[10:41] <upix> i mean it think it should have some kind of boundaries like 20ms +/- something
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[10:42] <daveake> You need to be within +/- 5% I think
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[10:42] <upix_> ah conn lost
[10:42] <daveake> You need to be within +/- 5% I think
[10:42] <upix_> so thats like 1ms
[10:43] <daveake> very like
[10:44] <upix_> okay
[10:44] <upix_> is there a way to set custom baud rate
[10:44] <upix_> like 49.5
[10:44] <upix_> just in case
[10:44] <daveake> Pass. I'd want to get it right at the sending end.
[10:45] <daveake> I use timers to do it, and as I can't add up I test with a cheap logic analyser to see how far out I am :p
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[10:46] <gonzo_> my routines are interruopt driven, so I just had an output that toggloed everey input. So I could just check that with the scope and tweak for the exact time. Irrespective of what the software uart would/could be doing
[10:46] <griffonbot> Received email: Steve Aerospace "Re: [UKHAS] Re: Pressure"
[10:47] <gonzo_> (Also useful to give some maker pulses when checking the uart code, using a 2chan scope
[10:48] <gonzo_> also I had another o/p that was just the start bit, so I could trigger the scope on that
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[10:50] <nick_> gonzo_: what interrupt drives your routine?
[10:51] <gonzo_> I'm on a pic, but the principal is the same
[10:51] <gonzo_> I used a timer elapse, taken from the main osc (via a prescaler)
[10:52] <gonzo_> so I could fine adjust the timer to get an exact time (5 or 10ms in my case)
[10:52] <nick_> Could it be that you are triggering a new message before you finish getting the old message?
[10:53] <nick_> And that's why one message is getting the end bit cut off sometimes?
[10:53] <daveake> that was my guess
[10:53] <nick_> (I know my ublox will send a reply up to a second late, not sure what happens if I send another request during that wait or during the reply)
[10:54] <nick_> By up to a second late I mean it sends at the start of the next second.
[10:54] <gonzo_> if you have another spare o/p, you could pluse the line on writing the string, then catch that on the scope.
[10:54] <gonzo_> (I do a lot of debug by scope)
[10:55] <nick_> You are requesting data from your GPS every 5ms?
[10:55] Action: nick_ is confused
[10:56] <nick_> upix_: you are the one with the problem, right?
[10:56] <upix_> well it's not a problem anymore
[10:56] <upix_> I mean it happened earlier
[10:57] <upix_> and not happening now
[10:58] <upix_> and I am using "serial" code so one message couldn't cut off the previous one
[10:58] <gonzo_> if you have not found and fixed it, it'a still a problem!
[10:58] <daveake> +1
[10:59] <upix_> but it's nearly impossible to find and fix it if it's not reproducabl
[10:59] <upix_> but it's nearly impossible to find and fix it if it's not reproducable
[10:59] <daveake> Launches have a habit of making sure "I thought it was fixed" bugs come back
[10:59] <gonzo_> yep, reproducing is 9/10ths of the battle
[10:59] <daveake> If it does happen again, grab the audio
[11:00] <upix_> ok i will
[11:01] <daveake> Also, even though it's a dummy message, I suggest you test with ones that are much longer, so they're about the same size as real sentences
[11:05] <upix_> well it's my first baloon so I am just building everything up into places, so no real messages at the moment
[11:05] <upix_> but hopefully will do things this week
[11:08] <kokey> I suspect I'll have to order some more bits from Upu
[11:08] <kokey> I realised that I probably don't want to launch my stuff with the breakout boards, I'd rather keep those for further development
[11:09] <kokey> it also looks like I'll get away with inserting wires into a breadboard before putting the rfm22b breakout over it
[11:11] <Laurenceb> hmm im unconvinced by eztv impedance matching
[11:12] <Laurenceb> or the elonic ref board for that matter
[11:12] <Laurenceb> they say "50/75 ohm in"
[11:12] <Darkside> apparently its 50 ohm in
[11:12] <Laurenceb> thats not very convincing
[11:12] <Darkside> but yeah, dunno
[11:12] <Darkside> i guess i could look at the input impedance with a VNA?
[11:12] <Randomskk> maybe it's about roughly 50 ohms they hope
[11:13] <Randomskk> maybe the PCB traces are the impedance matching
[11:13] <Laurenceb> im going to grab a network analyser
[11:13] <Darkside> lol
[11:13] <Laurenceb> need to find one first
[11:13] <Darkside> hehe
[11:13] <Darkside> i can check it tomorrow if you can't find one
[11:13] <Laurenceb> mine has a 105pF cap on the input
[11:13] <Laurenceb> and nothing else
[11:13] <Darkside> you measured it?
[11:13] <Laurenceb> yes
[11:13] <Laurenceb> with an lsr
[11:14] <Laurenceb> *lcr
[11:14] <Darkside> cool
[11:15] <Laurenceb> now back to debugging micro sd cards
[11:16] <Laurenceb> while i wait for someone to bite on my mass emails
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[11:18] <Laurenceb> ohshit
[11:18] <Laurenceb> i think i broke the kernel
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[11:18] <Laurenceb> what does top show?
[11:19] <Laurenceb> it seems to be missing usb comms stuff
[11:19] <Laurenceb> cpu is at 90% in system monitor
[11:19] <Laurenceb> top says 0.9% usage
[11:20] <Laurenceb> and my machine is practically dead
[11:22] <Laurenceb> seems to be IO wait issues
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[11:33] <Laurenceb> http://www.wvshare.com/product/Open407V-D-Standard.htm
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[12:01] <nosebleedkt_> Hi
[12:01] <nosebleedkt_> from web irc client
[12:01] <nosebleedkt_> :)
[12:04] <fsphil> hello from console irc client :)
[12:04] <Laurenceb> hello
[12:04] <Laurenceb> i is on an internet
[12:05] <fsphil> ah, I got one of those once
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[12:07] <Laurenceb> http://xe.bz/aho/24/
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[12:10] <daveake> i is on a broken internet
[12:10] <kokey> wtf, heating food with serial ports?
[12:10] <fsphil> we should return it
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[12:11] <kokey> I remember the first small ISP I set up, people would ask me if I work for the internet, or if I'm a representative of the internet
[12:12] <fsphil> did you tell them you can't say, or the internet would get angry?
[12:13] <fsphil> you don't want to get it angry, it knows too much
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[12:21] <daveake> ^^ it's angry
[12:22] <fsphil> uhoh
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[12:31] <costyn> Laurenceb: haha nice link
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[12:39] <gonzo_> I do hope it's just a joke!
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[12:56] <fsphil> I've heard serial is good for the diet
[12:57] <Darkside> a UART a day keeps the doctor away?
[12:58] <Laurenceb> http://i.imgur.com/vEZpr.jpg
[12:59] <daveake> My pet bird eats a lot of serial, as evidenced by the mess under his perch. I call it the parroty area
[12:59] <Darkside> oh jeez
[13:00] <Darkside> we'd better stop this
[13:00] <daveake> Hey, you get what you pay for here :)
[13:00] <Darkside> we'd better stop this
[13:01] <kokey> hmmm, temperature sensors, I should get some
[13:01] <fsphil> cool
[13:01] <daveake> Darkside <-- Mark and Space
[13:01] <Darkside> hahaha
[13:01] <fsphil> That was a Bit too far
[13:01] <daveake> I'm on the edge
[13:01] <Darkside> i only operate 7-bits on my payloads
[13:02] <daveake> my word
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[13:04] <fsphil> it's not how many bits you got, it's what you do with them that counts
[13:04] <kokey> fold them in 3D space
[13:05] <fsphil> fsk modulation via moving the transmitter really quickly
[13:06] <fsphil> wonder how quickly that would need to happen
[13:08] <kokey> haha
[13:09] <JamesBurton> I have bin reading the ukhas wiki which gps modules ?
[13:10] <Darkside> uBlox 6
[13:10] <daveake> ^^ the best
[13:10] <JamesBurton> This http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:ublox_psm
[13:11] <daveake> I'd start at http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:falcom_fsa03
[13:11] <JamesBurton> Radio modules Which One
[13:11] <daveake> It's about a specific device but what it says applies to the ublox in general
[13:11] <daveake> NTX2 is the simplest
[13:12] <fsphil> mmm rpi
[13:12] <JamesBurton> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:ntx2
[13:13] <daveake> yup
[13:13] <JamesBurton> and is this RTTY
[13:13] <daveake> rtty is what you do with it
[13:14] <daveake> But yes we (UK) use rtty pretty much exclusively, and the NTX2 is good for that
[13:14] <JamesBurton> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:linkingarduinotontx2 what you was talking about
[13:14] <daveake> yup
[13:15] <gonzo_> if you google RTTY, you will find a lot of information on amateur and commercial services that use 5but baudot coding. Most HAB in the UK uses 7bit ASCII
[13:16] <JamesBurton> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:balloon_data which ballon size is best
[13:16] <costyn> JamesBurton: depends on the weight of your payload
[13:16] <costyn> JamesBurton: and your budget
[13:16] <daveake> Worry about the balloon when you know what's going in the payload
[13:17] <daveake> If you want to know for the budget, then £50 or so for the balloon
[13:17] <JamesBurton> gas i used Helium
[13:20] <JamesBurton> what i said is this the basics
[13:21] <daveake> Yes, use helium
[13:22] <daveake> Overall, you need a tracker (GPS, processor, radio), batteries, box, tape, nylon cord, radio receiver, laptop, balloon, filler, gas, parachute
[13:22] <JamesBurton> do you buy all this things from one place or severel
[13:22] <daveake> And 3 months - 3 years of work :)
[13:22] <costyn> daveake: and assorted bits of wires and cables to connect various bits together
[13:22] <daveake> yep
[13:22] <costyn> JamesBurton: different places
[13:23] <JamesBurton> websites
[13:23] <daveake> Pretty much. Balloon and parachute and cord from http://www.randomsolutions.co.uk/Random_Aerospace/Welcome.html
[13:23] <daveake> GPS and NTX2 from http://ava.upuaut.net/store/
[13:24] <daveake> Processor from ... well, depends on what you buy.
[13:24] <costyn> Arduino from ebay (cheapest)
[13:24] <daveake> Gas from local party shop
[13:24] <daveake> Filler you make from hose and stuff
[13:24] <daveake> Tape and glue and Polystyrene sheets from DIY store
[13:25] <JamesBurton> which Arduino ?
[13:25] <daveake> Radio receiver - ebay
[13:25] <costyn> JamesBurton: any 5v one will do
[13:25] Action: daveake reaches for soap box
[13:25] <daveake> Get a 3.3V one
[13:25] <costyn> hehe
[13:25] <daveake> </soap box>
[13:26] <costyn> yea yea .. but for a beginner I'd say 5v ?
[13:26] <daveake> Well, for a beginner one that's not too small to be fiddly :)
[13:26] <costyn> yea
[13:26] <daveake> If there's a 3.3V "normal" sized one then I'd recommend that
[13:27] <JamesBurton> tacking http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:tracking_guide
[13:27] <costyn> otherwise an UNO or one of the many many clones
[13:27] <nick_> Be careful buying an arduino from ebay
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[13:28] <JamesBurton> can you not buy arduino from main website
[13:28] <JamesBurton> http://store.arduino.cc/ww/
[13:28] <kokey> my 3.3v pro mini works nicely it seems, sparkfun one from ebay
[13:29] <costyn> JamesBurton: sure you can
[13:29] <JamesBurton> is it better
[13:30] <costyn> JamesBurton: do you live in the UK?
[13:30] <JamesBurton> no but soon
[13:31] <costyn> there are many many webshops which sell the arduino, it can save you some shipping costs if you look around
[13:31] <costyn> doesn't really matter that much where you buy them from, although nick_ seems to have had a bad experience buying one from ebay
[13:33] <kokey> JamesBurton: nosebleedkt_ is also in greece
[13:33] <JamesBurton> is this everything i need
[13:33] <daveake> Don't forget the radio receiver
[13:33] <Darkside> you also need to do a lot of coding
[13:33] <daveake> And an aerial
[13:34] <nosebleedkt_> yo
[13:34] <Darkside> you will need to write all your own payload software, to collect the data and do the modulation
[13:34] <Darkside> JamesBurton: have you programmed in C before?
[13:34] <JamesBurton> which aerial and radio receiver
[13:34] <JamesBurton> Yes
[13:35] <JamesBurton> whcih c#
[13:35] <nosebleedkt_> JamesBurton: are interested in GR ?
[13:35] <JamesBurton> i live at zakynthos
[13:35] <JamesBurton> ( Zante )
[13:36] <JamesBurton> nosebleedkt_ :
[13:36] <nosebleedkt_> lol
[13:36] <nosebleedkt_> you greek ?
[13:37] <kokey> bloody expedia why do you have to hang now
[13:37] <JamesBurton> Engish
[13:38] <JamesBurton> nosebleedkt_ : ex pax ( british )
[13:38] <kokey> moved to Greece for the economy?
[13:39] <JamesBurton> i moved to greece 2006
[13:39] <JamesBurton> 7 years ago
[13:39] <JamesBurton> and going back soon to england
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[13:39] <nosebleedkt_> JamesBurton: why did you come in Zakynthos? couldnt resist its beauty? :)
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[13:41] <JamesBurton> nosebleedkt_ : do you live in zakynthos
[13:42] <nosebleedkt_> no, I live in thessalonike
[13:43] <JamesBurton> nosebleedkt_ : what images of balloon
[13:44] <nosebleedkt_> e?
[13:44] <costyn> nosebleedkt_: maybe you should try greek :)
[13:44] <JamesBurton> nosebleedkt_ : What images of ballooning do you have of greece
[13:45] <costyn> JamesBurton: they are somewhere in a forest hehe
[13:45] <nosebleedkt_> lol
[13:45] <JamesBurton> i do not know greek ?
[13:45] <nosebleedkt_> nothing for the moment
[13:45] <costyn> JamesBurton: nosebleedkt_ is still looking for his payload which landed couple days ago
[13:46] <JamesBurton> el
[13:46] <JamesBurton> eh
[13:46] <JamesBurton> ok
[13:49] <JamesBurton> how much will it cost est
[13:51] <JamesBurton> To EveryOne :
[13:51] <daveake> It depends on what you fly, but for the first launch, inclluding a radio and aerials etc., budget £500
[13:52] <daveake> Apparently it's cheaper afterwards
[13:52] Action: daveake checks spend
[13:52] <daveake> but not necessarily so :)
[13:52] <costyn> daveake: well the radio is a pretty big investment
[13:52] <daveake> Yup
[13:53] <daveake> My assumption there is £125 for a funcube or s/h AOR AR8000 or Yaesu FT thingy
[13:53] <daveake> 790
[13:53] <JamesBurton> because you will reused the gps and etc ( if you get the payload back in one
[13:53] <JamesBurton> )
[13:54] <daveake> I wrote this last year /// https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/ukhas/LkteE6wS5L8
[13:54] <daveake> I hit stage 5 on Saturday
[13:54] <WillDuckworth> too true daveake
[13:54] <kokey> I wonder what radio to get
[13:55] <costyn> daveake: haha so true it hurts
[13:56] <costyn> daveake: title says 6 stages, what's stage 6?
[13:56] <costyn> kokey: see suggestions daveake posted a fewlines back
[13:56] <daveake> The boat mentioned at the end of stage 5
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[13:57] <daveake> (because I can't count)
[13:57] <costyn> :)
[13:58] <daveake> kokey I had an AOR 8000 scanner for a while, and that was great. The Yupiteru MVT7100 (I think that's the number) is a bit cheaper and poorer build quality but other seems as good.
[13:59] <daveake> But a larger radio is definitely more sensitive. I had a 790R but that died, so I splashed out on a new 817
[14:00] <daveake> For use at base, if you don't have any strong transmissions locally, the Funcube dongle is great. I wouldn't want to use that in the car - bit to fiddly when you're bouncing around on a country lane
[14:00] <Darkside> also its not as sensitive as some other receivers
[14:00] <Darkside> oh god the MVT7100
[14:00] <fsphil> not far off it
[14:00] <Darkside> i have one of those
[14:00] <daveake> Hopefully these cheap SDRs plus Darkside's filtered pre-amp will be a good budget option
[14:00] <Darkside> it was shit compared to the R10
[14:01] <daveake> How much is the R10?
[14:01] <costyn> would've thought the funcube would've been useful cause it's small and since you're chasing the payload you're not going to be tht far from it anyways
[14:01] <Darkside> costyn: the problem is when you're directly beneath it
[14:01] <Darkside> you're in the null of the payloads antenna
[14:01] <daveake> Well, mostly yes you're not far away and so you get a signal. Till it lands, that's true
[14:01] <costyn> Darkside: isn't that a problem with any radio
[14:01] <Darkside> thats when sensitivity counts
[14:02] <Darkside> costyn: yes, though we did solve the problem with circularly polarised receive antennas
[14:02] <Darkside> cross dipoles
[14:02] <daveake> I was directly under a foild balloon (and I mean directly - within 100m) and the signal dropped massively but we still decoded OK
[14:02] <costyn> Darkside: can you buy those or did you make them yourself?
[14:02] <fsphil> I'll be using the FCD on my next chase
[14:02] <fsphil> with an 817 for backup, just in case
[14:03] <Darkside> costyn: made ourselves
[14:03] <Darkside> i'll get a pic
[14:04] <Laurenceb> i need to measure the impedance
[14:04] <Laurenceb> according the the elonics datasheet you can trim the imput impedance on the e4000
[14:04] <Darkside> hrm, cant seem to copy a pic out of google docs
[14:04] <costyn> Darkside: don't worry about it
[14:04] <Laurenceb> but it not the full datasheet with i2c registers
[14:04] <costyn> Darkside: or 'no worries' :)
[14:04] <Laurenceb> e4000 looks very clever
[14:05] <Laurenceb> they have a cmos rf bandpass that goes down to 64mhz
[14:05] <costyn> Darkside: have no plans to make one yet
[14:05] <BrainDamage> you know that even if you disadapt 75 to 50 you're getting at most a power loss of 0.2 ?
[14:05] <Laurenceb> yes
[14:05] <Darkside> http://i.imgur.com/AYCod.png
[14:05] <kokey> I got my rtl-sdr working again on my mac with gnuradio
[14:05] <BrainDamage> then why is it so critical if it's mismatched? are you pulling hair with SNR?
[14:05] <Laurenceb> but its worth at least thinking about matching
[14:05] <Darkside> hmm that shouldn't be a png
[14:05] <Darkside> i'd be inclined to match it properly
[14:05] <kokey> I have an fc and elonics tuner one
[14:05] <costyn> Darkside: surprisingly simple :) the gray pipe is pvc right?
[14:06] <Darkside> especially hwen looking at weak signals
[14:06] <Laurenceb> BrainDamage: its no work to fix
[14:06] <Darkside> yes
[14:06] <UpuWork> shame Elonics went bust and don't make it any more Laurenceb
[14:06] <Darkside> costyn: theres a coax matching and phasing network inside that of course
[14:06] <costyn> Darkside: ok
[14:06] <Laurenceb> really?
[14:06] <Darkside> using 91 ohm coax i think
[14:06] <Laurenceb> website is up
[14:06] <costyn> the less simple bit then :)
[14:06] <UpuWork> I'm interested to know what Funcube are going to use
[14:07] <fsphil> a message on the list says they have enough stock for now
[14:07] <Laurenceb> http://www.insolvencynews.com/article/14186/corporate/metis-prepares-for-us-tech-auction
[14:07] <fsphil> and there are quite a lot of e4000s unshipped
[14:07] <Laurenceb> :/
[14:07] <nosebleedkt_> Ok, I have the first 3D path of my flight in KMZ file
[14:08] <UpuWork> Laurenceb http://i.imgur.com/purXb.png
[14:09] <Laurenceb> sucks
[14:09] <Laurenceb> they had really impressive products
[14:09] <Darkside> AD is coming out with some new chip from what i've been hearing
[14:09] <Laurenceb> and patents on the cmos rf stuff
[14:09] <Darkside> direct down converter and quadrature ADC in one chip
[14:10] <Laurenceb> a while back - before funcude, i tried to design similar with AD kit
[14:10] <Darkside> this is something new
[14:10] <Laurenceb> couldnt get the right rf range
[14:10] <Darkside> not released yet
[14:10] <Laurenceb> *cube
[14:10] <JamesBurton> funcude good
[14:10] <Darkside> i don't think it'll do the same range as the e4000 of course
[14:10] <Laurenceb> i cant speel
[14:10] <Laurenceb> exactly
[14:10] <Darkside> but it's closer
[14:10] <Laurenceb> the elonics e4000 patented stuff is awesome
[14:10] <Darkside> theres also mirics
[14:11] <Darkside> they have something similar
[14:11] <Darkside> but i dunno waht they're doing
[14:11] <Laurenceb> they have input cmos filtering stuff to allow wide range zero if on a single die
[14:11] <Laurenceb> god knows how but it seems to work
[14:11] <Darkside> apparently mirics is run by an ex-AD person
[14:11] <nosebleedkt_> Here you areeverybody
[14:11] <Laurenceb> interesting
[14:11] <nosebleedkt_> http://imagebin.org/221846
[14:11] <Darkside> i couldn't get anything out of them though
[14:12] <Laurenceb> yeah there must be ways to do this
[14:12] <costyn> nosebleedkt_: cool
[14:12] <nosebleedkt_> :)
[14:12] <JamesBurton> how do you do that
[14:12] <Laurenceb> elonics made a huge fuss about how their design avoided a ton of saw filters
[14:12] <Laurenceb> which seemed to make sense
[14:12] <nosebleedkt_> latitude,longitude,altitude in KML file
[14:13] <Laurenceb> id like to read the patents but i cant seem to find any
[14:13] <Laurenceb> typical
[14:13] <JamesBurton> how to make a KML file
[14:13] <BrainDamage> sometimes it's better not to patent stuff
[14:13] <Darkside> mm, they did a good job on thechip, thats for sure
[14:13] <BrainDamage> and simply keep everything secret
[14:13] <Darkside> its not perfect
[14:13] <Darkside> but cool
[14:13] <BrainDamage> it's cheap, and works reasonably for a zero-if arch
[14:13] <Darkside> yup
[14:14] <Laurenceb> there are other wide coverage zero if chips
[14:14] <Laurenceb> but they need a saw on the front to stand a chance of working
[14:15] <Laurenceb> apperently theres i/q mismatch correction and stuff on the chip
[14:15] <Laurenceb> doesnt look like gnuyradio is using that
[14:15] <Laurenceb> i have an image about 20dB down
[14:16] <Darkside> i think it only works so well
[14:16] <Laurenceb> well its made quite well
[14:16] <Laurenceb> so youd hope for 20dB or so with no correction
[14:16] <Darkside> also i dunno how much of the spec the osmosdr stuff implements
[14:16] <Laurenceb> i suspect theres no correction
[14:16] <Darkside> yeah likely
[14:17] <Laurenceb> apparently theres i2c registers for trimming it
[14:17] <Darkside> the annoying thins is we can't get the spec
[14:17] <Darkside> its NDA'd
[14:17] <Laurenceb> id hope for 40dB or so using those
[14:17] <Darkside> the osmosdr guys have it, but they're not sharing
[14:17] <Laurenceb> i know
[14:17] <Laurenceb> i only have a breif one
[14:17] <Darkside> of course the driver is open source
[14:17] <Darkside> but the spec itself isn't
[14:17] <Laurenceb> yeah
[14:17] <BrainDamage> will they be bound by the NDA even after the company completely failed?
[14:17] <Laurenceb> is the realtek datasheet open?
[14:18] <Darkside> it could probably be enforced by the administrator
[14:18] <Darkside> Laurenceb: dont think so either
[14:18] <Laurenceb> id like to add a gps module style active ant circuit
[14:18] <Darkside> though realtek have been friendly from what i've heard
[14:18] <Laurenceb> sucks :(
[14:18] <Laurenceb> using gpio on the realtek
[14:18] <Darkside> apparnetly they asked the osmosdr guys what they wanted in the next version
[14:18] <Laurenceb> heh
[14:18] <Darkside> i think the response was more ADC resolution
[14:19] <Laurenceb> yeah
[14:19] <UpuWork> What would be epic would a £75 radio with a twiddly knob and a display on it
[14:19] <Laurenceb> thats easy
[14:19] <Laurenceb> cheap netbook
[14:19] <UpuWork> not quite what I meant
[14:19] <BrainDamage> you could add a micro, lcd and encoder knob in a box with rtl dongle and LNA/upconverter
[14:20] <BrainDamage> and then a small cpu board
[14:20] <BrainDamage> rpi might be too shitty for full bandwith
[14:20] <BrainDamage> since it has 700MHz and full bandwith is ~2.8MSps
[14:20] <Laurenceb> or desolder an e4000
[14:21] <craag> What are you going to do with full bandwidth in a box with just an LCD and twiddly knob??
[14:21] <Laurenceb> make custom pcb using stm32
[14:21] <Laurenceb> my processor is only using a few % at 2.8Msps
[14:21] <Laurenceb> quite impressive
[14:21] <Laurenceb> - using gqrx
[14:21] <BrainDamage> you can use oversampling to increase the adc accuracy
[14:21] <JamesBurton> ( Sorry About butting it ) what code do you used
[14:21] <UpuWork> same as I do with it on the PC craag sit back enjoying being able to see the entire band we use in one go
[14:21] <UpuWork> JamesBurton depends on your microcontroller
[14:22] <craag> Ah, so a decent-definition colour LCD with waterfall :D
[14:22] <Laurenceb> stm32 has 7Msps adc
[14:22] <BrainDamage> for what I gathered on the rtlsdr channel , the e4000 has multiple bw output modes
[14:22] <BrainDamage> and you can do more than 1.5 MHz Bw
[14:23] <Laurenceb> yeah
[14:23] <Laurenceb> quite a lot more
[14:24] <BrainDamage> maybe a cheap-ish fpga for the waterfall display
[14:24] <Laurenceb> or a netbook
[14:25] <JamesBurton> tablet
[14:26] <Laurenceb> stone tablet
[14:26] <Laurenceb> with slaves
[14:26] <Laurenceb> to cut 15 per second
[14:27] <costyn> haa
[14:27] <costyn> *haha
[14:27] <daveake> Parallel processing needed there
[14:28] <JamesBurton> dual core
[14:29] <JamesBurton> intel i3
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[14:34] <Laurenceb> http://uk.farnell.com/nxp/nup1301u/diode-esd-0-6pf-sot323/dp/2069352
[14:34] <Laurenceb> going to use that for esd
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[14:34] <Darkside> BAV99 is the one i think they use
[14:34] <Laurenceb> i know
[14:35] <Laurenceb> but i dont think they accounted for parasitic capacitance
[14:35] <Darkside> hmm
[14:35] <Laurenceb> this might give half a dB or so better performance
[14:35] <Darkside> and that'll go up when the input is biased...
[14:35] <Darkside> interesting
[14:35] <Darkside> i didn't think of that
[14:36] <Laurenceb> im going to stick 3v3 into one of the pins on that
[14:36] <Laurenceb> life the pin and stick a choke on
[14:36] <eroomde> daveake: do you know if avrdude can be built for raspi?
[14:36] <Laurenceb> connect to the clean 3v3 rail
[14:36] <daveake> Sorry, no idea
[14:36] <eroomde> we need a wifi bridge to reprogram the rocket without going outside and plugging a laptop in
[14:37] <Laurenceb> ive got a 434mhz active antenni yagi that will connect to it then
[14:37] <Laurenceb> with 0.4dB NF preamp and 15DBi gain
[14:37] <Laurenceb> *dBi
[14:37] <Darkside> Laurenceb: heh, i just biased up the output
[14:37] <Laurenceb> how
[14:37] <daveake> http://www.raspberrypi.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=8635 any use?
[14:37] <Darkside> well
[14:37] <Darkside> not intentionally
[14:37] <Darkside> as a result of my preamp pcb
[14:37] <Laurenceb> :S
[14:38] <JamesBurton> nosebleedkt_ : permission for air like CAA
[14:38] <Laurenceb> oh i see
[14:38] <Darkside> i had the preamp board setup for use with the funcube dongle
[14:38] <Darkside> which has a 5v bias tee
[14:38] <Laurenceb> so there is another power line
[14:38] <Darkside> so when i feed 5v into my board from elsewhere, the coax is also biased up
[14:38] <Laurenceb> i want to run my handheld ant with one coax
[14:38] <Laurenceb> i see
[14:38] <Darkside> it didn't cause problems
[14:38] <Laurenceb> it wont
[14:38] <Darkside> hell, it didn't even increase the noise floor
[14:38] <Laurenceb> theres a cap in the way
[14:39] <Darkside> yeah
[14:39] <nosebleedkt_> JamesBurton: no laws in GR
[14:39] <Darkside> Laurenceb: but yeah, i get 20dB gain with 0.7dB NF out of my amp
[14:39] <nosebleedkt_> GREAT. I joined the ARHAB list at 20th position !!!
[14:39] <Laurenceb> nice
[14:39] <nosebleedkt_> for highest altitude record
[14:39] <Laurenceb> ive got RFMD amps
[14:39] <daveake> Us Brits have the top locked out on ARHAB :p
[14:39] <Darkside> mm, i'm using minicircutis
[14:40] <Darkside> minicircuits*
[14:40] <JamesBurton> nosebleedkt_ : ok ( What ARHAS list)
[14:40] <Darkside> PSA4-5043 iirc
[14:40] <nosebleedkt_> arhab.org
[14:40] <Darkside> i like that one as it doesn't need any kind of current limiting for th ebias
[14:40] <Darkside> just apply 5v
[14:40] <Darkside> well, 3 to 5v
[14:40] <Darkside> and away you go
[14:42] <Laurenceb> yeah, simple microwave oscillator
[14:42] <Laurenceb> :P
[14:42] <Darkside> pff
[14:42] <Darkside> my lna board doesn't oscillate...
[14:42] <Darkside> (though i haven't run it inside a metal box yet >_> )
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[14:43] <Darkside> thts what rf dampening foam is for, rite?
[14:43] <Darkside> <_<
[14:44] <Darkside> i don't expect problems tbh
[14:45] <craag> Hmm, my rtl-sdr has the BAV99 right on the input, I'll remember that when setting up the bias tee!
[14:45] <Darkside> yeah thats the problem
[14:45] <Darkside> that diode is a path to ground
[14:45] <Darkside> biasing up the input could be bad with it present
[14:45] <Darkside> i mean, i did it on mine, and it didn't blow up >_>
[14:45] <craag> Yeah, more than +-0.7v = smoke
[14:45] <craag> ok
[14:45] <Darkside> or maybe i blew up one of the diodes in it
[14:45] <Darkside> and didn't notice
[14:45] <Darkside> lol
[14:45] <craag> hmm, might be worth checking that!
[14:45] <Darkside> yeah lol
[14:46] <costyn> nosebleedkt_: nice about your arhab record
[14:46] <Darkside> but yeah
[14:47] <Darkside> i'd either put a separate bias tee in the line after the sdr, or power the lna externally
[14:48] <daveake> UpuWork You've not got pAVA up on ARHAB ... not bothering?
[14:48] <UpuWork> Requested it they put the project Ava up then seemed to forget to put pAVA on there
[14:48] <UpuWork> I've had a plan anyway
[14:48] <daveake> Yeah, I had to send some reminders on one of mine
[14:49] <nosebleedkt_> thanks costyn
[14:49] <daveake> Does this plan involve getting the #1 spot?
[14:49] <UpuWork> I'm going to copy the records not on our list over to a new page called World Records
[14:49] <daveake> :D
[14:49] <UpuWork> and stick it on our Wiki
[14:49] <UpuWork> job done
[14:49] <craag> I was planning the power the LNA seperately tbh, several antennas I use are short-circuit at DC, I'd probably end up plugging one straight into the bias tee eventually.
[14:49] <JamesBurton> Payload container what Material is best ?
[14:49] <costyn> JamesBurton: pink insulation foam apparently
[14:49] <daveake> I (now) prefer extruded polystyrene foam
[14:50] <costyn> JamesBurton: http://ava.upuaut.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/picoava.jpg
[14:50] <UpuWork> I submitted XABEN 28 too but that isn't there either
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[14:50] <daveake> Yeah, I noticed
[14:50] <JamesBurton> http://ava.upuaut.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/picoava.jpg is that something that it will look like
[14:51] <daveake> No - too soft
[14:51] <UpuWork> sent him a mail
[14:51] <BrainDamage> if it wouldn't be pink, would it cease to work?
[14:51] <daveake> Yep
[14:51] <UpuWork> correct
[14:51] <daveake> http://www.daveakerman.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/P1040546-1024x682.jpg
[14:52] <UpuWork> how much power did that disapate ?
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[14:52] <JamesBurton> why used pink
[14:52] <daveake> Tooooo much :)
[14:52] <daveake> Ah
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[14:52] <Darkside> pink is the magic hab colour
[14:52] <Darkside> to go higher than 40km altitude, the payload needs to be pink
[14:52] <UpuWork> pink is the best of all the colours
[14:52] <costyn> hehehhe
[14:52] <daveake> You want a colour that shows up
[14:52] <JamesBurton> red
[14:52] <Darkside> time for me to sleep
[14:53] <Darkside> night all
[14:53] <UpuWork> unless you land in a gay pride convention in which case unlucky
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[14:53] <costyn> Darkside: cya
[14:53] <UpuWork> nn Darkside
[14:53] <daveake> number10 made a bright yellow payload, then on the way to the launch site he passed lots of these .. http://img.alibaba.com/img/buyoffer/103756269/Rapeseed_and_sunflower_seed_bulk.jpg
[14:53] <daveake> lol UpuWork
[14:53] <costyn> daveake: haa
[14:53] <costyn> daveake: that would be unfortunate if it landed in there
[14:54] <daveake> He added some pink tape IIRC
[14:54] <JamesBurton> daveake: : http://www.daveakerman.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/P1040546-1024x682.jpg 500g
[14:54] <costyn> daveake: I present you Dutch flower fields... http://www.studiokoning.nl/Foto_7/Bollenvelden.htm
[14:54] <costyn> daveake: good luck choosing a color
[14:54] <daveake> :)
[14:55] <costyn> in any case recovery would probably get you an angry farmer :)
[14:55] <daveake> JamesBurton It would really help me, and I suspect others, if you talk in actual sentences. It's tiring trying to guess what you're asking.
[14:55] <costyn> agreed
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[14:57] <JamesBurton> daveake:Sorry http://www.daveakerman.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/P1040546-1024x682.jpg this image will good of starting ( the Box ) with the form padding
[15:00] <daveake> <sigh> If you're asking "Is this a good material?", answer, yes, like I said. That stuff though is a bit thin (10mm) and it's probably better to use thicker stuff for strength. What you want though is a box that survives the flight (it can be violent), and protects the parts inside. Till you decide what is going inside (tracker, camera, etc.) it's too early to choose the packaging.
[15:01] <daveake> I've made several different types of payload container, and each was a good solution for what I was trying to achieve.
[15:02] <JamesBurton> daveake : And Something that can survives the water just in case it go in the sea
[15:03] <daveake> lol
[15:03] <daveake> Sadly true, especially for me
[15:04] <craag> Are you planning to launch from Zante, or when you get back to the UK?
[15:05] <JamesBurton> In UK Why?
[15:05] <craag> I was thinking from Zante you stand rather a good chance of it going in the sea :P
[15:06] <JamesBurton> craag i think it will go to sea
[15:06] <Laurenceb> http://www.edinburgh-gazette.co.uk/issues/27079/notices/79
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[15:08] <number10> wasnt quite on the way to launch site I decided to add some pink tape to the yellow box - daveake - but it makes for a better story :)
[15:09] <daveake> Artistic license :D
[15:10] <number10> :)
[15:11] <JamesBurton> In Zakynthos the Airport is 1km from my home and can you still launch a balloon being saw close
[15:13] <JamesBurton> http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=zakynthos&hl=en&ll=37.746184,20.897241&spn=0.017646,0.042272&geocode=+&hnear=Zakinthos,+Ionian+Islands,+Greece&t=m&z=15 i live in kalamaki
[15:17] <eroomde> if you did crash a balloon into an aeroplane it would become known as the kalamaki calamity
[15:18] <fsphil> oh dear
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[15:19] <costyn> lol
[15:20] <nosebleedkt_> fsphil:
[15:20] <eroomde> if you crashed a squid into an aeroplane it would become known as the kalamaki calamari calamity
[15:20] <costyn> eroomde: now you're just being silly :P
[15:20] <eroomde> whereas before...
[15:20] <nosebleedkt_> lol
[15:20] <fsphil> niya nosebleedkt_
[15:20] <nosebleedkt_> kalamaki
[15:20] <costyn> "stop that. It's silly. Very silly indeed."
[15:21] <nosebleedkt_> fsphil: arhab.org altitude records 20th :P
[15:21] <fsphil> nice!
[15:21] <fsphil> none of my flights are on there
[15:22] <nosebleedkt_> LOL
[15:22] <fsphil> wonder if I can notify them of an upcoming flight from last year
[15:22] <nosebleedkt_> lol
[15:22] <costyn> hehe
[15:23] <nosebleedkt_> actually the guy told me that after january 2013 he won't add a mission if it wasn't previously submitted
[15:23] <fsphil> yea, I'm sure I'm gonna bother
[15:23] <nosebleedkt_> hehe
[15:23] <JamesBurton> nosebleedkt_ : Wood you do that
[15:23] <nosebleedkt_> JamesBurton: why did you move in zakynthos?
[15:24] <JamesBurton> why do you want to know
[15:24] <JamesBurton> nosebleedkt_
[15:25] <JamesBurton> Sun
[15:25] <nosebleedkt_> JamesBurton: social man
[15:25] <nosebleedkt_> JamesBurton: we get to know people here. Little nice community :)
[15:26] <JamesBurton> nosebleedkt_ : We Moved to zakynthos of the sun and work and nice people
[15:26] <JamesBurton> nosebleedkt_ : ika
[15:26] <nosebleedkt_> JamesBurton: Now you don't have work? That's why you want to leave?
[15:26] <costyn> JamesBurton: were you born and raised in England?
[15:26] <JamesBurton> yes
[15:27] <JamesBurton> costyn : Yes
[15:27] <kokey> my girlfriend moved to Spain from the UK, in 2006, amongst a wave of English expats
[15:28] <kokey> the majority of them moved back, slowly, since late 2008
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[15:28] <costyn> kokey: why's that?
[15:28] <nosebleedkt_> JamesBurton: I've never been to Zakynthos. It will cost a fortune.
[15:28] <kokey> somewhere around summer 2008 the property market started falling apart, people directly linked to sales lost their work
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[15:29] <kokey> then the rest of things started to fall apart, and the locals also ended up without work
[15:29] <JamesBurton> nosebleedkt_ get a bus to zakynthos
[15:29] <nosebleedkt_> JamesBurton: how do greek local girls look like in zakynthos?
[15:29] <kokey> things started to get a bit dodgy after that, unemployed people being trouble, councils not paying their staff, corrupt police getting more intense, etc.
[15:30] <JamesBurton> nosebleedkt_ ?
[15:30] <nosebleedkt_> JamesBurton: nevermind
[15:31] <costyn> kokey: makes sense
[15:31] <JamesBurton> nosebleedkt_ : Don't want to come zakynthos
[15:31] <kokey> it's probably full of drunk English people
[15:31] <nosebleedkt_> I want, I don't have money. :)\
[15:32] <nosebleedkt_> Drunk Brits are met in Crete
[15:32] Action: kokey makes note
[15:32] <kokey> s
[15:33] <costyn> gotta go.. bye all
[15:33] <kokey> it's strange, greece has a troubled economy, according to wikipedia a big percentage of greeks can speak english, but strangely I haven't noticed an influx of greek migrant workers in London... yet
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[15:35] <russss> because of the weather
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[15:35] <fsphil> they'd disolve in the rain?
[15:36] <fsphil> it gets cold there too, nosebleedkt_ has pictures of snow
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[15:37] Action: daveake imagines drops of blood in the white snow
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[15:39] <JamesBurton> Hello
[15:40] <nosebleedkt__> what?
[15:41] <JamesBurton> nosebleedkt__ : do you think it is a good idea to launch a balloon at zakynthps
[15:41] <JamesBurton> zakynthos
[15:41] <nosebleedkt__> how will you recover it from sea?
[15:42] <JamesBurton> rc helicopter
[15:42] <nosebleedkt__> or it could land in peloponnese
[15:42] <daveake> "rc heli" Now I've seen it all
[15:42] <craag> LOL
[15:42] <nosebleedkt__> hahha
[15:43] <JamesBurton> nosebleedkt__ : idea
[15:43] <nosebleedkt__> JamesBurton: its a bad place to launch. No mainland.
[15:43] <daveake> Go the whole hog, and fly an R/C boat with homing software
[15:44] <JamesBurton> daveake : you can do it if want
[15:44] <daveake> thanks
[15:44] <nosebleedkt__> LOL
[15:45] <JamesBurton> nosebleedkt__ : I Think it is better in the UK
[15:45] <nosebleedkt__> JamesBurton: Tomorrow I will organize a search party for the 3rd time to go and find my payload. Are you in ?
[15:46] <nosebleedkt__> JamesBurton: but in UK you need to get NOTAM. Here no :)
[15:46] <JamesBurton> nosebleedkt__ : No Sorry buy a RC Aircraft or RC helicopter
[15:47] <nosebleedkt__> No money here man
[15:47] <nosebleedkt__> You forgot where you are :)
[15:47] <craag> That boat idea would be pretty awesome. I wonder how far you could send an autonomous rc boat filled with batteries and a GPS?
[15:48] <daveake> I have thought about that :)
[15:48] <daveake> I especially thought about it after one or two unplanned sea landings
[15:48] <nosebleedkt__> some guy from Holland I think have done it
[15:48] <nosebleedkt__> I don't recall his name
[15:48] <JamesBurton> but how will you pick it up
[15:48] <JamesBurton> the payload
[15:48] <nosebleedkt__> get some strong magnets :)
[15:49] <daveake> If that's the one I'm thinking of, they deliberately landed in the sea but then collected by boat
[15:49] <daveake> Which if course is different to having a boat-shaped payload with motors, steering and batteries and homing software
[15:49] <JamesBurton> what about a RC Aircraft ( SeaPlane)
[15:51] <daveake> what about learning to land (on land) before you fly an R/C plane autonomously, into someone?
[15:51] <JamesBurton> i know how to fly a aircraft
[15:52] <daveake> OK, your payload lands 10km out to sea. Now how does your skill help you?
[15:53] <JamesBurton> rent a plane
[15:53] <daveake> Goalpost change. You were talking about R/C planes
[15:54] <JamesBurton> yes R/C Plane get a seaplane with a onborad gps and tracking
[15:54] <craag> 10km and back with an RC plane?????
[15:54] <craag> Plus somehow 'hooking' a payload out of the sea??
[15:55] <daveake> Autonamous? Dangerous. Probably illegal. Next?
[15:55] <JamesBurton> it would UAV
[15:55] <craag> There's no way you could 'UAV' the 'hooking' process...
[15:55] <craag> GPS isn't anywhere near acurate enough.
[15:56] <daveake> You haven't learn your own language yet, or how to write embedded software, let alone code a UAV which believe me is right at the advanced end.
[15:56] <daveake> So please, get real.
[15:56] <Laurenceb> there is a simpler way
[15:56] <Laurenceb> return to base parafoil
[15:56] <daveake> Yep
[15:56] <UpuWork> JamesBurton we have a term here its called cloud cuckoo land and your well and truly a resident at this time
[15:57] <daveake> Still a bit on the advanced side for a first flight, no?
[15:57] <Laurenceb> ive tried it
[15:57] <Laurenceb> but i failed at the simplest part
[15:57] <daveake> Yes but you know what you're doing
[15:57] <Laurenceb> used the wrong knot
[15:57] <daveake> :)
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[15:57] <Laurenceb> everything else worked and it was in controlled flight for a while
[15:58] <russss> a long-range payload-hooking UAV would be awesome though
[15:58] <daveake> That's still on my todo list
[15:58] <JamesBurton> UpuWork : Just a Idea to someone do know what are doing
[15:58] <eroomde> ideas are easy
[15:58] <UpuWork> train some ninja space bats JamesBurton
[15:58] <eroomde> and we have them a lot
[15:58] <russss> we are not short of ideas round here
[15:58] <UpuWork> but being serious keep it simple
[15:58] <daveake> +1000000
[15:58] <UpuWork> decide what microcontroller your going to use first
[15:58] <UpuWork> have a play with it
[15:58] <UpuWork> make it talk to a GPS
[15:58] <UpuWork> then come back
[15:59] <gonzo_> a beach launched rc boat would have saved you a couple of hours wait on one of your recoveries dave
[15:59] <russss> (of course if you're going to land on the sea then you'd probably be better off with an unmanned autonomous payload-recovery boat)
[15:59] <russss> heh
[15:59] <gonzo_> (though would have not had time for the chippie!)
[15:59] <daveake> gonzo_ What do you think I was planning during that time?
[16:00] <gonzo_> hehe
[16:00] <gonzo_> more reliable would be to pay someone to paddle out on a lilo
[16:00] <daveake> russs is correct - a board-shaped payload as discussed above
[16:00] <daveake> boat
[16:00] <daveake> grrrr
[16:00] <russss> I want to build an autonomous boat.
[16:00] <russss> oh yeah, or make the payload a boat.
[16:00] <daveake> With shark fin?
[16:01] <gonzo_> and the correct soundtrack on mp3
[16:01] <russss> solar-powered payload return
[16:01] <daveake> bahdum ....bahdummm....
[16:01] <gonzo_> di di di dah
[16:01] <JamesBurton> UpuWork daveake : But i think i be in the uk to launch the ballon and in zakynthos the risks of go to sea and etc
[16:02] <daveake> babel.c overload
[16:02] <JamesBurton> if you want build a glider into the payload to land at your home
[16:03] <daveake> I don't want
[16:03] <eroomde> today is a good day
[16:04] <eroomde> legitamte excuse to use this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_inverse_square_root
[16:04] <russss> hah
[16:04] <fsphil> lol
[16:04] <russss> that is some legendary code
[16:04] <russss> you have to keep the "what the fuck?" comment
[16:05] <daveake> lol
[16:05] <daveake> Ad far as magic numbers go, 0x5f3759df is pretty magic
[16:05] <eroomde> i will!
[16:05] <JamesBurton> daveake : We all have idea but half the time they don't work
[16:06] <gonzo_> they don't write numbers like that anymore
[16:06] <fsphil> I read a story on that number a while back, nobody seemed to know who wrote it
[16:06] <fsphil> or how they came up with it
[16:07] <daveake> Much better than MS and their 0xB16B00B5
[16:07] <JamesBurton> Big Boobs
[16:07] <fsphil> indeed
[16:07] <JamesBurton> Before MS put Boobies
[16:08] <JamesBurton> in there code
[16:08] <eroomde> yes the derivation of that number is amazing
[16:08] <russss> fsphil: yeah there's quite a thorough discussion on the wikipedia article now
[16:08] <eroomde> is there a greater bit hack ever?
[16:08] <kokey> I love how it has a photo of Carmack, with a 'he did not write it'
[16:08] <russss> which is quite interesting
[16:08] <kokey> almost like a dailymash entry
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[16:09] <russss> this man is awesome, but he did not write this code.
[16:10] <JamesBurton> daveake : I think i know part to go into the balloon box and i have to write some code with it
[16:10] <JamesBurton> but which C#
[16:11] <eroomde> the one on the left
[16:11] <kokey> had a chat today about how awesome KA9Q and Fabrice Bellard are
[16:11] <JamesBurton> C++
[16:11] <eroomde> fabrice bellard is a god
[16:12] <fsphil> bellard is a show off :)
[16:12] <fsphil> "oh here's a dvb modulator I just made, meh"
[16:12] <eroomde> bootling linux in real time in your browser compiling on the fly written in js
[16:12] <fsphil> it's like he sneezes amazing code
[16:12] <kokey> speaking of which, some code is out there to do DAB on VGA
[16:13] <fsphil> I'm using Phil Karn's reed-solomon code in SSDV
[16:13] <JamesBurton> EveryOne : Do you all used liunx
[16:13] <craag> http://bellard.org/dvbt/ No code though :(
[16:13] <eroomde> JamesBurton: i do
[16:14] <kokey> fsphil: yeah that's what started the conversation actually
[16:15] <JamesBurton> daveake : What Software do you use of code in c
[16:15] <craag> JamesBurton: I do 90% of the time at home.
[16:15] <fsphil> all I did was tidy up the indentation
[16:17] <kokey> JamesBurton: I tend to put up with the Arduino IDE, for now
[16:17] <daveake> JamesBurton Depends on the target
[16:17] <kokey> I'm pretty sure once I want to tie all my code together I'm going to have to use something else before I go mad
[16:17] <fsphil> right, home time. bbl
[16:17] <JamesBurton> daveake : C# or C++
[16:17] <daveake> JamesBurton Depends on the target
[16:18] <daveake> 99% of the time with this sort of stuff, C is what you use
[16:18] <daveake> But you have to start with the target processor, and if you're using Arduino it's a C++ compiler
[16:19] <daveake> But the C++ side is minimal; it's mostly standard C
[16:19] <JamesBurton> Raspberrt PI c#
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[16:19] <daveake> NO NO NO
[16:19] <daveake> Do not start with a Pi
[16:19] <daveake> And my Pi stuff was C
[16:20] <JamesBurton> Microsoft c
[16:20] <JamesBurton> java c
[16:20] <daveake> FFS no, it's nothing to do with microsoft
[16:20] Action: daveake smashes head against wall
[16:20] <daveake> Or Java
[16:20] <JamesBurton> All New to me
[16:20] <daveake> Start with the board you want to use NOT with what you happen to know
[16:21] <JamesBurton> Build Apps and websites in C#
[16:21] <craag> Look at programming with an arduino, there's code samples on the wiki.
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[16:21] <craag> You will need to use C, not C#.
[16:21] <daveake> I suggest you buy an Arduino, install the Arduino IDE, a breadboard and some LEDs and stuff (people sell the lot in a kit) and have a play just flashing lights on and off
[16:22] <craag> ^^ There's plenty of arduino flashing-lights tutorials out there that will help you to learn the C.
[16:22] <daveake> Then follow the wiki guides on getting a GPS going
[16:22] <daveake> then the RTTY stuff
[16:22] <JamesBurton> Can you not me sum code c
[16:22] <daveake> I can no sum me code no
[16:23] <daveake> Sample code on the wiki
[16:23] <daveake> Walk first run after
[16:23] <daveake> Don't try and rush by borrowing other people's code
[16:23] <daveake> Best by far to get a good understanding of what you're doing
[16:23] <JamesBurton> no i just wanted to look at it
[16:24] <daveake> See the wiki
[16:24] <JamesBurton> is there no manual
[16:24] <daveake> Correct
[16:25] <daveake> There is a lot in the wiki, but not organised as a manual. There is no "step by step" for the whole thing.
[16:25] <daveake> There's a lot more there now than there used to be
[16:25] <eroomde> by a factor of 100
[16:26] <eroomde> JamesBurton: there is enough on there that you can have a successful flight
[16:26] <eroomde> you might have to work at it a bit though
[16:26] <eroomde> but that is how it should be
[16:26] <daveake> It's probably too easy as it is :)
[16:27] <craag> If you have only used C#, I suggest you do some of the arduino tutorials first, it is a rather different language. A lot lower-level.
[16:27] <JamesBurton> can you not download the wiki of offonline content
[16:27] <eroomde> offonline
[16:27] <eroomde> meta
[16:28] <daveake> meta the wiki you know
[16:28] <eroomde> JamesBurton: i'm sure you can, if you can work wget
[16:28] <JamesBurton> is here a download link for people to download
[16:29] <JamesBurton> in a pdf
[16:29] <daveake> no
[16:29] <eroomde> i don't think it would make much sense as a single pdf
[16:29] <eroomde> i also wouldn't try and digest it all at once
[16:29] <eroomde> read the beginners guides
[16:29] <craag> If you are using chrome, you could print each page to a pdf if you wanted.
[16:29] <eroomde> get an arduino
[16:30] <daveake> > I suggest you buy an Arduino, install the Arduino IDE, a breadboard and some LEDs and stuff (people sell the lot in a kit) and have a play just flashing lights on and off
[16:30] <JamesBurton> what about if i break it
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[16:31] <eroomde> JamesBurton: then you'll have learned something
[16:31] <eroomde> but if you're careful then you shouldn't
[16:32] <eroomde> if you don't trust yourself to not break the arduino then you have no chance of doing a hab successfully
[16:32] <daveake> +100000
[16:32] <eroomde> but there's no reason you'll break it if you're careful
[16:32] <daveake> Indeed
[16:32] <JamesBurton> no problem
[16:32] <eroomde> just don't power lines to ground or anything
[16:32] <eroomde> don't short *
[16:32] <daveake> You're not going to break it with code, only by doing something silly with electricity
[16:33] <eroomde> oh yes indeed, there is no way you can break it with code
[16:33] <kokey> I tend to run mine off batteries
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[16:33] <daveake> You used to be able to break some monitors with code :p
[16:33] <eroomde> you can feel free to try whatever code you want, safe in the knowledge it'll be ok
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[16:33] <eroomde> unless the code writes over the bootloader
[16:33] <JamesBurton> Which arduino
[16:33] <eroomde> ...
[16:33] <eroomde> Arduino Uno
[16:33] <daveake> You asked that twice before
[16:33] <daveake> And there's the answer you got both times
[16:34] <kokey> btw, copper is good for an antenna?
[16:35] <JamesBurton> http://store.arduino.cc/eu/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=11_12&products_id=195
[16:35] <fsphil> only if you can get him to hold still and not arrest you
[16:35] <JamesBurton> http://store.arduino.cc/eu/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=11&products_id=197
[16:35] <gonzo_> coppe is only useable if sterile
[16:35] <kokey> fsphil: haha
[16:36] <fsphil> I hate myself for that one
[16:36] <kokey> I just remember from building crystal radios, if I use stolen telephone copper cable it worked loads better than any other wire for HF
[16:36] <eroomde> JamesBurton: the first one
[16:36] <fsphil> I don't believe it should matter
[16:36] <eroomde> JamesBurton: NOT the one with ethernet
[16:37] <fsphil> different materials have different velocity factors
[16:37] <kokey> I never compared it to non-stolen cable
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[16:37] <JamesBurton> Operating Voltage
[16:37] <JamesBurton> 5v
[16:37] <gonzo_> stoled has higher velocity, at first
[16:37] <daveake> lol
[16:38] <fsphil> true lol
[16:38] <JamesBurton> daveake : http://store.arduino.cc/eu/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=11_12&products_id=195
[16:38] <daveake> Also it makes the antenna more robbery
[16:38] <daveake> Dunno: I don't use them
[16:39] <gonzo_> groan
[16:39] <fsphil> nul points
[16:39] <kokey> ok, home time
[16:40] <kokey> to go solder some more header pins onto an arduino with a really bad soldering iron
[16:40] <daveake> Decent iron is a good investment
[16:40] <fsphil> totally
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[16:43] <JamesBurton> how do you power the arduino ( 5V )
[16:44] <daveake> USB or batteries or PSU. Needs 7V or more
[16:45] <MrScienceMan> hamster
[16:45] <daveake> wat size weel use do you?
[16:46] <MrScienceMan> regular
[16:47] <daveake> I tried that once. Stupid hamster ran the wrong way round the wheel.
[16:47] <daveake> All the GPS co-ords swapped sign
[16:48] <MrScienceMan> could it be hamster sabotage?
[16:48] <JamesBurton> thankd
[16:49] <daveake> No he just lost his bearings
[16:50] <JamesBurton> who lost the bearings?
[16:50] <MrScienceMan> concentrate
[16:51] <JamesBurton> MrScienceMan : was it you
[16:51] <MrScienceMan> happened to me once
[16:52] <JamesBurton> what happened
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[16:52] <nick_> If you lost the bearings I'm surprised the whell spun freely enough to get any power out of it.
[16:53] <JamesBurton> solar panels
[16:58] <JamesBurton> hello
[16:58] <JamesBurton> *
[17:01] <craag> Seriously, get a working arduino + gps running off batteries before you start thinking about any other stuff.
[17:01] <eroomde> craag is being very polite JamesBurton
[17:01] <eroomde> you have had A LOT of help from people here just now
[17:01] <eroomde> and they're being very patient
[17:02] <daveake> He missed out 2 words
[17:02] <daveake> Well, 3 technically
[17:02] <daveake> including "and"
[17:02] <JamesBurton> sorry all new to me
[17:02] <eroomde> ignorance is completely fine and we all have to start somewhere
[17:03] <daveake> But, staying polite, as I and craag and several others have said, go buy an Arduino and learn from that
[17:03] <eroomde> but realising your ignorance and knowing when to ask questions, and when to get your head down and do some private work, is a skill you should work on
[17:03] <daveake> Because otherwise we're putting more effort in to your project than your are
[17:03] <daveake> -r
[17:03] <JamesBurton> trieding to see which one because Arduino uno
[17:04] <eroomde> also taking more care over your typing would help. it's very hard to understand what you're saying
[17:04] <daveake> Just buy one; all of them have been used for HAB
[17:04] <eroomde> ever sentence is incomplete and full of typos
[17:04] <eroomde> it makes it very hard for us
[17:04] <eroomde> every*
[17:04] <eroomde> ironical.
[17:05] <daveake> ironic actually
[17:05] <daveake> :D
[17:05] <JamesBurton> very sorry can you forgive me
[17:05] <daveake> But ironical is a word so I'll let you off
[17:06] <eroomde> it's not really a question of forgiveness. it's just a question of making it as easy as possible for us to help you
[17:06] <JamesBurton> eroomde : make a exmaple
[17:07] <eroomde> better questions get better answers
[17:07] <eroomde> http://www2.gpmd.com/image/w/woou1614.jpg
[17:08] <eroomde> that is an exmaple
[17:08] <daveake> lmao
[17:08] <daveake> that took way too many seconds :)
[17:09] <nigelvh> eroomde: 403 - Forbidden.
[17:09] <daveake> works here
[17:10] <JamesBurton> images of a tree
[17:10] <eroomde> a dead tree
[17:10] <daveake> from canada
[17:10] <eroomde> (exmaple... ex-maple... nvm)
[17:10] <LazyLeopard> The pain............
[17:11] <nigelvh> I see.
[17:11] <nigelvh> Though, perhaps the 403 - Forbidden also makes a reasonable statement.
[17:12] <eroomde> JamesBurton: but seriously, a good question would be something like 'Here is my background - I have done web development in C# but haven't done any electronics, where is a good place to start to build a flight computer?"
[17:13] <eroomde> and we'll tell you an arduino, which you should note down so u don't have to ask the question again several times
[17:13] <daveake> and not "is pink a good colour?"
[17:13] <daveake> though of course it is :)
[17:14] <Upu> that decision was made after months of workout the important stuff first though
[17:14] <LazyLeopard> Heh! Any colour that contrasts greatly with leaves and wood is a good colour, because your payload _will_ land in vegetation. ;)
[17:14] <eroomde> but really, just sentences that make sense would help a lot
[17:14] <LazyLeopard> ...unless it lands in water...
[17:14] <eroomde> you must see that things like this:
[17:14] <eroomde> JamesBurton> trieding to see which one because Arduino uno
[17:15] <eroomde> are not understandable english
[17:15] <eroomde> surely?
[17:16] <eroomde> anyway i'm not here to preach. just to let you know that you can make this easier for yourself if you want
[17:18] <daveake> LazyLeopard Not just against vegetation :-) http://www.daveakerman.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/P1030873-1024x682.jpg
[17:20] <LazyLeopard> Pink is pretty good there, too.
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[17:20] <fsphil> I may need to reconsider pink
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[17:21] <nosebleedkt__> lol
[17:21] <nosebleedkt__> my mother went to a church to light a candle
[17:21] <nosebleedkt__> to a saint
[17:21] <nosebleedkt__> so I find the payload
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[17:22] <nosebleedkt__> the saint's name in greek means 'saint reveal'
[17:22] <LazyLeopard> ;)
[17:22] <nosebleedkt__> mothers get funny
[17:23] <LazyLeopard> Well, good hunting.
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[17:23] <JamesBurton> i buy a Arduino
[17:24] <JamesBurton> *
[17:25] <fsphil> I'm sure you'll find it nosebleedkt__
[17:25] <nosebleedkt__> everybody says that but me
[17:25] <MrScienceMan> be more optimistic :)
[17:25] <JamesBurton> nosebleedkt__ were did the padload land
[17:26] <daveake> I've managed a couple of against-the-odds recoveries. You've got the location it seems; you should find it.
[17:26] <MrScienceMan> did you get your diving license yet?
[17:27] <nosebleedkt__> JamesBurton: 40.8410,23.4085
[17:27] <JamesBurton> on a road
[17:28] <nosebleedkt__> not exactly
[17:28] <JamesBurton> google map http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=40.8410,23.4085&hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=40.843704,23.403752&spn=0.001055,0.002642&hnear=0x14a9077508920631:0x853f5655fc3157a4,%2B40%C2%B0+50'+36.23%22,+%2B23%C2%B0+24'+12.00%22&gl=uk&t=h&z=19
[17:28] <nosebleedkt__> you entered wrong coords
[17:29] <JamesBurton> http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=40.8410,23.4085&hl=en&sll=40.844003,23.403583&sspn=0.001055,0.002642&t=h&gl=uk&z=16
[17:29] <fsphil> google snaps to the nearest road
[17:29] <fsphil> put an @ in front of the coordinates
[17:31] <JamesBurton> in the trees
[17:32] <fsphil> very in the trees
[17:33] <fsphil> my own tree landing: http://flic.kr/p/9YEJse
[17:33] <fsphil> less trees but more bog
[17:33] <nosebleedkt__> :P
[17:33] <fsphil> my feed where soaking when I got back
[17:33] <fsphil> the field was basically mud and water
[17:34] <fsphil> it looks quite small on the map too but it took ages to even get to the forest
[17:37] <fsphil> also sheep poo
[17:38] <fsphil> I hate that field
[17:38] <fsphil> if I land there again, it can stay there
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[17:41] <MrScienceMan> JamesBurton> http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=40.8410,23.4085&
[17:42] <MrScienceMan> isnt that a dirty roal right next to the landing spot?
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[17:52] <fsphil> looks like, might be able to get a 4x4 up there
[18:04] <griffonbot> Received email: mclane "Re: [UKHAS] Launch in Southern Germany"
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[18:13] <fsphil> mmmm http://makeplaylive.com/
[18:13] <fsphil> fldigi should run on that, and it has usb ports
[18:14] <fsphil> only really lacks build-in gps
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[18:40] <nigelvh> I mostly want access to its 4 dimentional Gsensor.
[18:41] <nigelvh> dimensional*
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[18:58] <WillDuckworth> ping daveake or fsphil
[18:59] <Upu> evening WillDuckworth
[18:59] <daveake> pung
[18:59] <WillDuckworth> evening all, just trying fswebcam on latest raspbian pi - getting a weird 'unable to find a compatible palette format'
[18:59] <daveake> how may I direct your call?
[19:00] <WillDuckworth> did you get that at some point?
[19:00] <daveake> ah you want fsphil :p
[19:00] <WillDuckworth> :D
[19:00] <daveake> sounds familiar
[19:00] <daveake> shorted the fuse?
[19:01] <WillDuckworth> external powered hub - but that is my next mod
[19:01] <WillDuckworth> straight bypass on that yeah?
[19:01] <daveake> I got some weirdness with the power
[19:02] <daveake> solder wire over the fuses
[19:02] <WillDuckworth> cool - will give that a whirl methinks
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[19:09] <griffonbot> Received email: Anthony Stirk "Re: [UKHAS] Launch in Southern Germany"
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[19:16] <WillDuckworth> boom - done, sorted
[19:16] <jonsowman> i'm assuming the boom wasn't a sound effecr
[19:16] <jonsowman> +t
[19:17] <WillDuckworth> nope - was a 'success' boooooom
[19:17] <jonsowman> :D
[19:17] <jonsowman> good
[19:17] <WillDuckworth> are you doing a talk at the conf jonsowman?
[19:18] <daveake> WillDuckworth So fuse shorting fixed the error?
[19:18] <jonsowman> i'm not acutally
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[19:19] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[19:19] <WillDuckworth> yep daveake, even though it was a powered hub - possibly wasn't enough juice coming through
[19:19] <daveake> Excellent
[19:20] <daveake> Yeah, some hub PSUs are complete shite
[19:20] <Lunar_Lander> daveake, you ran the BMP085 on a 3.3V arduino before, right?
[19:20] <daveake> You know that :)
[19:20] <daveake> I blogged it
[19:20] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[19:20] <daveake> And the specification says it works on 3.3V
[19:20] <Lunar_Lander> because the sensor that fluctuated around works good on the 5V arduino here at home, in turn the other sensor I took to the lab shows now -2000m
[19:21] <Lunar_Lander> so my last resort is a code error
[19:21] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[19:21] <daveake> Oh, that's never the last resort :)
[19:21] <Lunar_Lander> my issue was that someone at arduino mentioned that the wire library could have errors at 8 MHz
[19:21] <Lunar_Lander> and the 3.3V arduinos run at 8 MHz instead of 16
[19:21] <nigelvh> Entirely plausible
[19:22] <daveake> Or your lab is underground
[19:22] <Upu> you can run an Atmega32 @ 3.3v 16Mhz but it is out of spec
[19:22] <Lunar_Lander> xD
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[19:22] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[19:23] <Upu> so stick to 8Mhz
[19:23] <Upu> and Lunar get your radio sorted you have people in Germany launching
[19:23] <jonsowman> they're fine at 16Mhz
[19:23] <jonsowman> i promise
[19:23] <jonsowman> :P
[19:23] <Lunar_Lander> yeah but in Bavaria
[19:24] <Lunar_Lander> that is 600 km away
[19:24] <mattbrejza> pfft 8MHz is such an overkill
[19:24] <mattbrejza> 500kHz ftw
[19:24] <jonsowman> shush
[19:24] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[19:26] <Upu> Probably uses more power at 16Mhz
[19:26] <Upu> slower is better
[19:26] <Upu> :)
[19:27] <mattbrejza> wow a 16MHz 5V AVR uses 10mA
[19:27] <mattbrejza> and thats ignoring pwm adc uart etc...
[19:27] <Upu> whats a 3.3v one use ?
[19:27] <Upu> at 8Mhz
[19:27] <mattbrejza> 3mA
[19:27] <Upu> thats quite alot actually
[19:28] <Upu> oh reminds me and I'll be putting out a mail about this
[19:28] <Upu> I'm going to be ordering from Alphamicro soon
[19:28] <Upu> so if there are any specials you want
[19:28] <Upu> i.e 1.8v modules let me know so I can bargin with them
[19:28] <mattbrejza> well i dont actually need a 1.8V module but id expect theyll go if you order some
[19:28] <jonsowman> 16MHz @ 3V3 would be interesting to know
[19:29] <mattbrejza> 16mhz@3.3 is out of spec so not given
[19:29] <jonsowman> yeah i know
[19:29] <Upu> I just don't want to order them in and then not be able to sell them
[19:29] <daveake> 16mhz? bit slow :)
[19:29] <mattbrejza> its about 5-6 though jonsowman
[19:29] <jonsowman> ta
[19:30] <jonsowman> daveake: 700mA :P
[19:30] <jonsowman> (perhaps exaggerating)
[19:30] <mattbrejza> the network IC doesnt help though
[19:31] <jonsowman> mm
[19:31] <Randomskk> stm32
[19:31] <Randomskk> microamps the moment it sleeps
[19:31] <Randomskk> then wake up and do 168MHz
[19:31] <mattbrejza> yea this is active though
[19:31] <jonsowman> what's an stm32's current draw at 168MHz/3V3
[19:31] <Lunar_Lander> what does alphamicro make?
[19:31] <Randomskk> idk
[19:31] <Randomskk> some mA
[19:31] <Upu> nothing Lunar_Lander
[19:31] <jonsowman> they're a ublox distributor
[19:31] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[19:31] <Upu> they resell ublox
[19:32] <mattbrejza> best figure is performance/watt
[19:32] <Upu> UK distributor
[19:32] <Upu> whos prices are way better than the German or Australian distribution channels it seems
[19:32] <mattbrejza> well Upu i may get some 1.8V ubloxes in the future but i cant guarantee ill buy them
[19:33] <mattbrejza> tbh there are enough picos about, do AVRs go to 1.8V?
[19:33] <mattbrejza> it would seem so
[19:33] <Upu> I'll put the mail out and if people are interested
[19:33] <Upu> I've bought some 144.800 HX1's in as people seem to be using them
[19:33] <fsphil> interesting WillDuckworth, I'm having usb problems with a powered hub too
[19:33] <mattbrejza> point out they work with a AVR and lower power for pico, im sure theyll be takers
[19:34] <Laurenceb_> <jonsowman> about 40
[19:35] <Laurenceb_> you can pull tricks like running from ram and turning off all the flash
[19:35] <jonsowman> 40mA
[19:35] <jonsowman> wow
[19:35] <Laurenceb_> and get it to 25
[19:35] <jonsowman> more than i was expecting but i suppose with the number of peripherals that thing has
[19:35] <Laurenceb_> on the larger ones you can add an external smps to generate 1.2v vcore
[19:36] <Laurenceb_> id guess you could get to 10ma running from ram with a setup like that
[19:36] <mattbrejza> same as a AVR lol
[19:36] <Laurenceb_> but sequencing gets _complex_
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[19:37] <Lunar_Lander> Upu, the problem is that I hoped on the BMP085 to work
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[19:37] <Lunar_Lander> and daveake prove that it works on the 3.3V arduino
[19:37] <Upu> it does work on a 3.3V Arduino
[19:38] <Lunar_Lander> OK
[19:38] <daveake> LL Go and download the logs from the flights where I used it
[19:40] <griffonbot> Received email: Anthony Stirk "[UKHAS] Lower voltage GPS Modules"
[19:40] <Upu> we put one on the Swift board
[19:40] <fsphil> what's the problem with the BMP085, other than it being a pain to solder?
[19:40] <Upu> and that works at 3.3V
[19:40] <Upu> a) PITA to solder
[19:40] <fsphil> yea they run fine at 3.3v
[19:40] <Upu> b) They don't work above 3X KM
[19:40] <Upu> don't recall what X is
[19:40] <Upu> actually they are ok to solder as long as you use longer pads on your PCB
[19:40] <jonsowman> min pressure around 100mb?
[19:41] <fsphil> it's possible the calculation they provide is what breaks at altitude
[19:41] <Lunar_Lander> it goes down further jonsowman
[19:41] <fsphil> be interesting to see the raw data
[19:41] <daveake> I had an SCP1000 before, which was much better. However it eventually became not better whilst floating in the North Sea
[19:41] <jonsowman> lol
[19:41] <Lunar_Lander> nosebleed's data showed it down to 3 mb
[19:41] <fsphil> the sea does that so well
[19:41] <Upu> unless your doing pico flights I'm not sure what the point is in measuring the pressure its low
[19:41] <daveake> yep
[19:41] <Lunar_Lander> and Darkside wrote on sparkfun that it works below 300 mb
[19:42] <jonsowman> 30?
[19:42] <fsphil> low pressure and cold :)
[19:42] <jonsowman> i should hope it works below 300
[19:42] <Upu> temperature is interesting as it varies
[19:42] <Upu> but pressure is fairly well documented
[19:42] <Lunar_Lander> daveake, download the logs from where?
[19:42] <fsphil> more interesting is a differential pressure sensor
[19:42] <Upu> its lower higher full stop
[19:42] <griffonbot> Received email: "Re: [UKHAS] Lower voltage GPS Modules"
[19:42] <Lunar_Lander> xD Upu
[19:44] <griffonbot> Received email: Anthony Stirk "Re: [UKHAS] Lower voltage GPS Modules"
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[19:45] <mattbrejza> Upu: if the 1.8V ones are the same price to them as the 3.3V ones you may be able to get them to 'bundle' them together for the same bulk price
[19:45] <Upu> I have to buy 50 to get break point pricing
[19:45] <Upu> I can ask I guess
[19:46] <Upu> I like Alphamicro
[19:46] <fsphil> any advantage to the lower voltage ones?
[19:46] <Upu> use less power better picos :)
[19:46] <jonsowman> yes they were very helpful when i spoke to them
[19:46] <Lunar_Lander> daveake, where can I download the logs please?
[19:46] <jonsowman> the guy was very interested in CUSF and balloons
[19:46] <fsphil> would they not just use more current?
[19:46] <mattbrejza> they sent out a replacement oone very quickely when they sent the wrong part
[19:46] <mattbrejza> na power usage is power
[19:47] <mattbrejza> and then your switch mode psu is more efficient
[19:47] <fsphil> ooo
[19:47] <mattbrejza> and its easier to step up from 1.5 to 1.8 then 1.5 to 3.3
[19:47] <Upu> put you down for some ? :)
[19:47] <WillDuckworth> Upu - your google profile pic scares me
[19:47] <fsphil> none for me this time
[19:47] <Upu> haha
[19:48] <Upu> at the rate I'm chewing through MAX6's shouldn't be long before I get some more in
[19:48] <fsphil> I've still got one of the larger ublox6s here
[19:48] <fsphil> will get that used up first
[19:48] <Upu> NEO's
[19:49] <mattbrejza> Upu: im sure theyll be used, its just a case of how long ull have to hold on to them
[19:49] <fsphil> that's the one
[19:49] <WillDuckworth> same here
[19:49] <griffonbot> Received email: "Re: [UKHAS] Lower voltage GPS Modules"
[19:49] <Upu> I expected the orders to peak then dry up until people dumped payloads in the sea
[19:49] <mattbrejza> will you be getting some for your picos (upu)?
[19:49] <Upu> however I'm getting about an order a day still
[19:49] <Upu> I might make a pico based on one
[19:49] <Upu> not sure yet
[19:49] <fsphil> hmm
[19:49] <fsphil> tempting
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[19:49] <Upu> if nothing else for a super light pico tracker
[19:49] <Upu> backup
[19:50] <WillDuckworth> hearing those cogs whirring fsphil
[19:50] <fsphil> nah, not yet
[19:50] <fsphil> too many things here already
[19:50] <Upu> something you can just stick a AAA in and instant backup tracker
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[19:51] <Upu> btw
[19:51] <Upu> RFM22B works at 1.8v
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[19:52] <mattbrejza> yea the ntx2 doesnt, not thats its a pico part
[19:52] <WillDuckworth> stick me down for a couple Upu
[19:52] <WillDuckworth> gps
[19:52] <Upu> 1.8v ones ?
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[19:53] <WillDuckworth> please
[19:53] <Upu> ok thats enough interest :) I'll get some ordered in
[19:53] <WillDuckworth> good man
[19:54] <Lunar_Lander> XD
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[19:55] <Upu> evening nick
[19:56] <nick_> hi
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[20:42] <Lunar_Lander> what do you think about the guy on the mailing list who found an insurer?
[20:43] <Upu> I think he did well
[20:43] <Randomskk> <redacted>.
[20:43] <Upu> still expensive
[20:43] <Randomskk> not covering planes makes it almost totally pointless
[20:44] <Upu> I'd disagree
[20:44] <Randomskk> anything else is likely to be cheaper than the premium let alone excess
[20:44] <Upu> The main issue the broker I had was not with planes
[20:44] <Lunar_Lander> wasn't the main point always that someone crashes his car when a payload lands in a road or so?
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[20:44] <Upu> but landing on a main road and causing a huge pileup
[20:45] <Upu> 600mph plane vs payload is only going to end one way
[20:45] <Randomskk> prop plane vs latex balloon or large payload into jet engine can be a bit sad
[20:45] <Upu> however someone swerving to avoid a payload may not end well
[20:45] <Randomskk> I mean, I agree
[20:45] <Randomskk> hitting a plane has never happened in the entire US aviation history
[20:46] <Randomskk> despite twice-daily launches from like 90 sites
[20:46] <Laurenceb_> it shouldnt cause serious damage
[20:46] <Randomskk> it shouldn't happen
[20:46] <Randomskk> let alone cause damage
[20:46] <Laurenceb_> maybe expensive damage to a jet tho
[20:46] <Upu> a critical hit against a plane so incredibly unlikely as to be consider nil
[20:46] <Randomskk> met office haven't caused a UK pileup yet either
[20:46] <Upu> but road ? 2 of my payloads have landed 100 meters from main roads
[20:47] <Upu> true
[20:47] <Upu> their payloads are quite small though
[20:47] <Randomskk> steve's reasoning seems okay at first glance but if it was 0.1% the met office should have had loads by now
[20:47] <Randomskk> true
[20:47] <Upu> look there is always a risk
[20:47] <Randomskk> yea
[20:47] <Randomskk> of course
[20:47] <Upu> take all steps to avoid the risk
[20:47] <Randomskk> mitigate the risk anyway
[20:47] <Upu> yep
[20:48] <Randomskk> I don't think £300 insurance per launch is the way to go for anything that's not a sponsored/media launch though
[20:48] <Upu> if I was doing commercial launches I'd insist on it
[20:48] <Randomskk> sure
[20:48] <Upu> but I'm not
[20:48] <Randomskk> but the majority of us are not
[20:48] <Randomskk> and most people seem to have found insurance when doing media related launches
[20:49] <Upu> lets hope the maths doesn't deal us a bum card and we need to find out
[20:49] <Randomskk> russss and I had a chat the other day about how ukhas could self insure based on some met office numbers
[20:49] <Upu> well my broker had the met office numbers
[20:49] <Randomskk> the expected cost is something like 27p per launch
[20:49] <Upu> and they still didn't like it
[20:49] <kokey> whatever the antonym is of 'admire'
[20:50] <kokey> that's what I am feeling about the soldering job I've just done
[20:50] <Upu> through hole or smt kokey ?
[20:50] <Upu> smd
[20:50] <kokey> just headers onto an arduino
[20:50] <Upu> ok
[20:50] <Upu> oh that reminds me thx
[20:50] <kokey> but apart from my skill, the soldering iron is as bad as it gets
[20:52] <Lunar_Lander> but wait
[20:52] <Lunar_Lander> isn't NOTAM exactly for warning air traffic?
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[20:53] <griffonbot> Received email: Anthony Stirk "[UKHAS] Conference Video Stream"
[20:53] <Upu> Lunar yes but only really lower level
[20:53] <DanielRichman> Upu: Xsplit
[20:54] <Upu> that was easy :)
[20:54] <DanielRichman> uh; http://www.xsplit.com/ . Can't remember how badly crippled the free demo is; (well, i don't have the full but a friend does)
[20:54] <DanielRichman> anyway it's meant to be good and it's free to try so...
[20:54] <DanielRichman> "Mix screen capture, cameras, videos, flash and images
[20:54] <Laurenceb_> http://dangerousprototypes.com/wp-content/media/2012/05/robots-2.jpg
[20:54] <Laurenceb_> see thats mad skillz
[20:55] <DanielRichman> mix in flash: so you can throw in nyan cat too for when the stream gets boring
[20:55] <Upu> I'll give that a shot thanks
[20:55] <Upu> lol
[20:55] <Upu> thats so going to happen
[20:55] <Upu> its only $14 for a 3 month license
[20:55] <Upu> I'll give it a try thanks
[20:57] <Lunar_Lander> what does "bum card" mean?
[20:57] <Laurenceb_> you dont want to know
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[20:57] <Upu> bad luck
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[20:58] <Upu> no idea what this will throw up :
[20:58] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[20:58] <Upu> is that broken ?
[20:59] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[20:59] <Laurenceb_> bikeshed.jpg
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[21:01] <griffonbot> Received email: John Tanner "Re: [UKHAS] Conference Video Stream"
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[21:14] <Upu> DanielRichman http://www.batc.tv/ch_live.php?z=1&id=768
[21:15] <Upu> seems to work
[21:15] <kokey> weird, the rfm22b code on the wiki... I can't figure out what library it's referring to really
[21:15] <Upu> not sure how I can do it with only one monitor though
[21:17] <Upu> haha
[21:17] <Upu> check my stream :)
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[21:18] <kokey> ok the example code has function names from two different libraries
[21:19] <DanielRichman> Upu: The audio is broken for me
[21:19] Action: nick_ possibly seconds the g+ hangout on air suggestion
[21:19] <Upu> its all broken :)
[21:19] <kokey> aah, I suppose I have to use jcoxon's library
[21:19] <DanielRichman> lol well it lasted for ~5 minutes so
[21:19] <Upu> I think I need to have a play :)
[21:19] <Upu> but yes suggestion looks viable
[21:19] <nick_> Let me know if you want to do a test hangout
[21:20] <Upu> Well we uses batc.tv last year
[21:20] <DanielRichman> youtube/hangouts sounds like it might be better quality
[21:20] <Upu> I'll see how I stream to them live
[21:20] <nick_> You hit the "on air" button
[21:21] <Randomskk> I'm not sure how easy it'd be to swap between slides and video with g+ though
[21:21] <Randomskk> still a really neat idea
[21:21] <nick_> you can share screen easily
[21:21] <Randomskk> hmm
[21:21] <Randomskk> that actually raises a different issue
[21:21] <Randomskk> namely how/what computer people will present from
[21:21] <Randomskk> last time it was just a vga connector for most of it
[21:28] <fsphil> unless you just have another camera pointed at the screen
[21:28] <Randomskk> could do that
[21:28] <nick_> You could do that and the organiser can choose which screen is the main one in the stream
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[21:35] <Lunar_Lander> xD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdcCxiqCNC0&feature=related
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[21:40] Nick change: UpuHome -> Upu
[21:43] <eroomde> Upu: potential interested in the gps units
[21:43] <Upu> probably going to order a few in if I can negotiate the price down
[21:44] <eroomde> it could be perfect for the low bower HF beacon but i need to check my amp can do enough power at 1.8V
[21:44] <Lunar_Lander> what is the prime good thing about the 1.8V supply?
[21:44] <eroomde> or rather, i need to design an amp that can do enough power at 1.8V
[21:44] <eroomde> Lunar_Lander: lower power
[21:44] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[21:44] <Lunar_Lander> and what about the communications?
[21:44] <eroomde> every time the clock switches in a digital thing, the transisters go from on to off or vice versa
[21:45] <eroomde> when they're neither fully on or fully off, their i.e. in the middle of switching, their resistance is quite high
[21:45] <eroomde> so that's when they dissipate the most power
[21:45] <eroomde> infact the power they dissipate at any point is the (voltage^2)/resistence
[21:46] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[21:46] <Lunar_Lander> but what about the communications
[21:46] <mattbrejza> eroomde: ism HF or over sea ham HF?
[21:46] <Lunar_Lander> i.e. can it talk with a 3.3V arduino?
[21:46] <eroomde> so you can see that if you can half the voltage, you will get 4 times lower power dissipation during the switching
[21:46] <eroomde> mattbrejza: neither
[21:46] <eroomde> i want it for my armpits
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[21:47] <Upu> Lunar you can run the AVR and the RFM22B @ 1.8v
[21:47] <eroomde> it's going to be right in the middle of normal ham
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[21:47] <Lunar_Lander> OK
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[21:47] <mattbrejza> for locating pieces of rocket?
[21:47] <eroomde> yep!
[21:48] <eroomde> so it's for when it's landed
[21:48] <eroomde> it will use a very slow morse mode that hams use for really low power contacts
[21:48] <mattbrejza> i think i suggested that to jon, of course everything is nice in hindsight
[21:48] <eroomde> it'll take about 30mins-1hr to send a gps location
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[21:48] <eroomde> but it does mean you can do it with little power so hopefully it'lllast for days
[21:49] <eroomde> i.e various day/night propagation opportunities
[21:49] <eroomde> low freq too, down at 3.5mhz probably
[21:49] <Randomskk> wow, that IS low
[21:49] <mattbrejza> you can put out large power on 1.8V, it just means designing for much lower load and impedance matching
[21:49] <Randomskk> how are you going to do a 53 million mile long dipole?
[21:49] <eroomde> thanks mattbrejza
[21:50] <eroomde> Randomskk: it'll not be particularly tuned
[21:50] <mattbrejza> i was wondering if highe freqs would be better due to antenna size but does it come down to propagation?
[21:50] <eroomde> just as long is is practical
[21:50] <eroomde> the rest by inductive loading
[21:50] <Randomskk> I guess once you're down in the millihertz region you don't stand much chance of getting resonance
[21:50] <eroomde> it comes down to propagation yep
[21:50] <mattbrejza> btw using a varactor FSK modem will be easiest
[21:50] <mattbrejza> dunno if you saw my attempt
[21:50] <mattbrejza> for some reason it died just before flight attempt two :(
[21:51] <nigelvh> There's always the examples of hams working the next town over on a dummy load, so even a very poor antenna *can* work.
[21:51] <eroomde> i didn't but was tempted to have a go at pulling the crystal
[21:51] <eroomde> but actually i'm not sure it's a good idea
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[21:51] <mattbrejza> its always worked very well for me
[21:51] <Randomskk> nigelvh: hehe. my icom can pick up HABs in the air without any antenna plugged in
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[21:51] <Randomskk> usually I don't notice that I've plugged the antenna into the wrong socket for a good hour
[21:51] <eroomde> unless you can be very sure of the shifts and absolute frequencies (temp compensating) because for these slow low power modes to work you have to really really know what the freq is
[21:51] <nigelvh> Yep, some radios are very very sensitive.
[21:51] <eroomde> as the receive bandwidth for the way the software works is tiny
[21:52] <eroomde> like 5hz
[21:52] <mattbrejza> but because the frequency is that much lower the drift is that much less
[21:52] <mattbrejza> oc 5hz is that much more extreme
[21:52] <eroomde> u see
[21:52] <eroomde> a txco should be fine with that
[21:52] <eroomde> if you don;t start trying to fart around loading it
[21:53] <mattbrejza> in my experience with 434 a crystal pulled crystals shift doesnt change
[21:53] <mattbrejza> with tmemperature
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[21:54] <eroomde> you're sure?
[21:54] <mattbrejza> well not that i noticed
[21:54] <eroomde> did you measure it?
[21:54] <mattbrejza> it was just an observation compared to an ntx2
[21:54] <griffonbot> Received email: Colin Tuckley "Re: [UKHAS] Conference Video Stream"
[21:55] <eroomde> rule 1: http://spacecraft.ssl.umd.edu/old_site/academics/akins_laws.html
[21:55] <mattbrejza> i can have a look tomorrow, i have another crystal pulled transmitter tthat needs freezer testing
[21:55] <eroomde> :D
[21:55] <eroomde> if u do get some numbers i'd be really v interested
[21:55] <mattbrejza> and at 3.5M then the numbers are that many times less
[21:55] <eroomde> mattbrejza: yes i do appreciate that
[21:56] <eroomde> u needn't keep reminding me
[21:56] <mattbrejza> i would get a proper crystal driver rather then trying a inverter based thing that i did
[21:56] <mattbrejza> lol yea
[21:56] <mattbrejza> only the second?
[21:56] <eroomde> 2 is a trend
[21:56] <eroomde> trust me i've finished my engineering degree now
[21:57] <mattbrejza> if i was being cheeky id use the testing oven at work and the spectrum analyser to see how it changes with temperture
[21:57] <eroomde> rule 5 http://spacecraft.ssl.umd.edu/old_site/academics/akins_laws.html
[21:58] <eroomde> but i'm tempted to try it with this slow morse for now
[21:59] <eroomde> for the same reason we use rtty
[21:59] <eroomde> it's a standard and there are more ears in more places
[21:59] <mattbrejza> so how were you going to do the shift thing?
[21:59] <mattbrejza> also potentially going to find a better rtty decoder?
[21:59] <eroomde> a varactor but as i said i after a little thinking i thought i wouldn't bother with fsk for now
[22:00] <eroomde> but especially for this, propagation is everything so the more hams who can potentially help the better
[22:02] <mattbrejza> oh yea you said morse, no need to FSK
[22:03] <eroomde> hopefully it'll do the trick
[22:03] <mattbrejza> adding XL pulling is very little extra work however
[22:03] <eroomde> it's an obvious upgrade path
[22:03] <eroomde> that's how i've left it
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[22:04] <mattbrejza> actually back to the lower frequency lower temperature dependance, you actually pull the cryslta the same number of hertz (which is more pull as a larger % of frequency) so may be the previously mentioned thing is not true
[22:05] <eroomde> mattbrejza: here's a cool radio problem 4 u
[22:05] <eroomde> if u want
[22:05] <eroomde> a radar altimeter for say 0m - 30m
[22:05] <eroomde> with height and vertical rate
[22:05] <eroomde> to say a couple of cm and maybe 5cm/s
[22:06] <nigelvh> There a reason you couldn't use an ultrasonic device?
[22:06] <Randomskk> ultrasonic to 30m range at cm accuracy is asking quite a lot iirc
[22:06] <Randomskk> plus it's kinda slow
[22:07] <nigelvh> Yeah, 30m is getting a bit far.
[22:07] <Randomskk> you're talking 174 milliseconds round trip at 30m
[22:07] <eroomde> nigelvh: a rocket exhaust plume
[22:07] <Randomskk> ^ is also a bit of a concern :p
[22:07] <nigelvh> Also the plume might cause issues...
[22:07] <eroomde> it's >2000m/s hot gas
[22:08] <Randomskk> I imagine that's not loud enough to really interfere though :P
[22:08] <mattbrejza> aorry went to make tomorrows lunch
[22:09] <mattbrejza> so just dopler shift?
[22:09] <mattbrejza> cant say ive done radar
[22:09] <mattbrejza> get a radar module and go from there?
[22:10] <eroomde> do you work for ESA?
[22:12] <eroomde> but srsly, radar is just a tx and an rx and some way of comparing what is coming into the rx antenna with some local copy of the tx signal
[22:12] <Randomskk> +details
[22:12] <eroomde> the fun is in deciding exactly how to do that, and how much accuracy you can get with different methods
[22:13] <mattbrejza> na, and im only working for the summer
[22:14] <mattbrejza> well i would be inclinedto go fpga then you have lots to play with
[22:14] <Laurenceb_> eroomde: doing it wrong
[22:14] <mattbrejza> but that doesnt lead to low weight/power usage
[22:14] <Laurenceb_> that problem is solved with optical mouse sensors
[22:14] <eroomde> s'ok tis just a toy problem we've got at work
[22:14] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[22:14] <Laurenceb_> its an annoying one
[22:14] <Laurenceb_> theres the russian solution
[22:14] <eroomde> i'm not sure if an fpga will help? it's more an analogue and system design problem
[22:14] <mattbrejza> probably best to look at papers then wait for me to come up with crappy ideas
[22:15] <mattbrejza> i was thinking ADC then whatever you want
[22:15] <mattbrejza> is it an analogue problem or a dsp one?
[22:15] <eroomde> exercise for the student
[22:16] <eroomde> but say i want 5cm heigh accuracy, that's a time of flight of 1.6e-10
[22:16] <Laurenceb_> eeek
[22:16] <Laurenceb_> lidar?
[22:16] <eroomde> so just going for a pure digital solution is not something i would want to undertake without a few drinks
[22:18] <eroomde> we have a plan that involves a microwave (say 5ghz) modulated with a swept triangular wave
[22:18] <eroomde> something like 10hz - 400hz
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[22:19] <eroomde> then the recivier will mix the reflection with a local copy of the fm, producing a bpsk beat frequency
[22:19] <eroomde> bpsk because it's a sine beat freq whose phase changes when the triangle wave makes a discrete change
[22:19] <eroomde> from / to \
[22:19] <Laurenceb_> you could do laser oct
[22:19] <Laurenceb_> maybe....
[22:20] <Laurenceb_> id need to think about that one
[22:20] <eroomde> then counting the number of zero crossings over a few sweeps
[22:20] <Laurenceb_> - swept optical coherence
[22:20] <Randomskk> how quickly do you need updates?
[22:20] <mattbrejza> yea in my head it was ADC the incoming wave and work out the dopler shift, but for many reasons that isnt pratcile
[22:20] <Randomskk> I imagine the time constants on the dynamics of a vectored rocket nozzle are not big.
[22:20] <nigelvh> Camera + String w/ weights.
[22:21] <Laurenceb_> but i want to patent this stuff
[22:21] <Laurenceb_> so i couldnt let you use it :P
[22:21] <Randomskk> better stop prejudicing yourself then
[22:21] <mattbrejza> anyway im going to bed, no more radio for one day
[22:21] <eroomde> Randomskk: yeah nothing too mega
[22:21] <eroomde> like 50hz would be fine
[22:22] <Randomskk> fair enough
[22:22] <eroomde> but it does have to good over than final metre
[22:22] <eroomde> that*
[22:22] <eroomde> or badness 10000
[22:22] <eroomde> Laurenceb_: yeah lidar is possible
[22:23] <nigelvh> Would the exhaust smoke plume be an issue for lidar?
[22:23] <eroomde> but the rocket plume is really very bright on lots of wavelengths
[22:23] <eroomde> and might diffuse the laser a lot
[22:23] <eroomde> because from a refractive index pov the air all around the bottom is really noisy
[22:28] <eroomde> also flying over fields of hay
[22:29] <eroomde> it's a really pernicious problem actually
[22:29] <eroomde> much easier if you want to fly much higher by gps and pressure
[22:29] <eroomde> but the final landing or to just stably hover at 2m is tricksie
[22:29] <Randomskk> rocket plumes + fields of dried grass?
[22:30] <nigelvh> In theory you can get barometers that should be able to measure reasonably small distances.
[22:30] <eroomde> yeah
[22:31] <eroomde> the one we have no has the resolution to
[22:31] <eroomde> but it's pretty noisy
[22:31] <eroomde> and certainly not up to guiding you down at 10cm/s
[22:31] <eroomde> but it can definitely see if it's on the table or on the floor
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[22:39] <Josh_> Hello all....if we are still awake?
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[22:42] <Josh_> Not to worry. I shall make a post in the old UKHAS group.
[22:43] <Josh_> Sleep well!
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[22:44] <jcoxon> didn't stay long
[22:46] <Laurenceb_> eroomde: hover rocket?
[22:50] <Randomskk> the best kind of rocket.
[22:51] <Laurenceb_> so not much ground speed
[22:51] <Laurenceb_> rules out passive sar
[22:51] <griffonbot> Received email: Josh Taylor "[UKHAS] Upcoming launch- anyone for piggyback?"
[22:51] Action: Laurenceb_ zzz
[22:52] <eroomde> RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
[22:53] <eroomde> i am not a fan of that child
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[22:53] <Randomskk> I can't imagine why not
[22:54] <eroomde> i hope we have the decency to give him the opportunity to design and build his own tracker
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[22:54] <eroomde> or maybe i'll offer to launch it from my boat
[22:54] <eroomde> 'hey ed, that looks more like an anchor than a balloon'
[22:54] <eroomde> splash
[22:55] <Randomskk> snigger.
[22:55] <Randomskk> lead balloon eh
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[22:58] <Lunar_Lander> Randomskk, do you know the mythbusters episode about the lead balloon?
[23:01] <eroomde> http://www.joshingtalk.com/
[23:01] <eroomde> and there it is still
[23:01] <eroomde> selling his 'exclusive guide' to launching your space balloon
[23:02] <eroomde> i'm not sure which bit is exclusive
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[23:02] <Lunar_Lander> is he like Elon Musk?
[23:02] <eroomde> do you need me to asnwer that?
[23:03] <eroomde> exclusive of content
[23:03] <eroomde> but you will get to witness several different spellings of the word gimbal on a single page, and marvel as the tenses and cases change within a single sentence
[23:04] <Lunar_Lander> he challenges Richard Branson?
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[23:05] <eroomde> bed time
[23:05] <Lunar_Lander> "Payload Construcshun"
[23:05] <Lunar_Lander> really?
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[00:00] --- Tue Jul 24 2012