highaltitude.log.20120720

[00:29] <griffonbot> @darksidelemm: RT @vk5gr: http://t.co/QjEyd5Qs Latest doco video for the #ProjectHorus High Altitude Balloon project - demo of new flight termination ... [http://twitter.com/darksidelemm/status/226111424055877632]
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[06:38] <UpuWork> morning jcoxon
[06:56] <griffonbot> Received email: James Coxon "Re: [UKHAS] Re: UKHAS Conference 2012"
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[08:26] <upix> good morning
[08:26] <nick_> hi
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[09:20] <daveake> nosebleedkt Do you have a plan?
[09:24] <Darkside> no, he isn't a cylon
[09:24] <Darkside> we think
[09:25] <daveake> lol
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[09:27] <daveake> Seems not to have a plan then
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[09:48] <nosebleedkt> nice
[09:48] <nosebleedkt> !
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[09:48] <daveake> nosebleedkt Do you have a plan?
[09:49] <daveake> Does it involve guns? a tank?
[09:49] <nosebleedkt> tomorrow morning I got to that village to met the hunting community
[09:49] <nosebleedkt> they will sent 2 hunters and a 4x4
[09:49] <Darkside> what happened?
[09:49] <nosebleedkt> with me
[09:49] <Darkside> where did.it.land?
[09:49] <daveake> a.tree.
[09:49] <Darkside> l.o.l
[09:49] <daveake> .amongst.lots.of.trees
[09:50] <nosebleedkt> Darkside 40.8413,23.408
[09:50] <nosebleedkt> bad place
[09:51] <LazyLeopard> What kinds of wild animals?
[09:51] <Darkside> ouch
[09:52] <daveake> nosebleedkt I think Darkside can probably trump you on whatever wild animal you can mention :)
[09:52] <nosebleedkt> https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/c0.0.843.403/p843x403/480769_494254323921950_1419241752_n.jpg
[09:52] <daveake> Darkside: I'm upsizing my chase vehicle :p http://images.exchangeandmart.co.uk/images/mmo/trade/ATR/35146/ATR26825323/image1_400.jpg
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[09:55] <LazyLeopard> Automatic? Hope it'ss got some decent overrides for off-road recoveries... ;)
[09:55] <kokey> should get a tomcat bowler for a chase car
[09:55] <nosebleedkt> :P
[09:56] Nick change: benoxley_ -> benoxley
[09:56] <kokey> daveake: funny, I was considering one of those not long ago
[09:56] <daveake> It has a number of positive attributes, including "big" and "cheap"
[09:57] <daveake> Quite a clever 4x4 transmission, and (as you can see) built like a tank
[09:58] <daveake> Definitely the most pounds weight per pound Sterling of any car I've bought before :p
[09:58] <daveake> And the plate has my initials on it lol
[09:59] <navrac_work> you better go for very fast ascent rates and early burst - cost a fortune in petrol to go on a long chase
[10:00] <daveake> true
[10:01] <daveake> Not that the pug is good in that regard
[10:01] <navrac_work> but the roof will make a really good ground plane
[10:01] <daveake> And I won't need the "limit chase car upload speed to 70mph" option
[10:01] <daveake> True
[10:01] <daveake> :)
[10:01] <navrac_work> so is this going to be your daily drive or more a chase car special
[10:02] <daveake> latter
[10:02] <daveake> and taking stuff to the dump
[10:02] <daveake> and for when we get snowed in
[10:02] <navrac_work> you are going to have fun kitting that out then
[10:02] <daveake> (we live in the sticks and we've been stuck a few times for days on end)
[10:02] <daveake> oh yus
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[10:02] <daveake> It won't be up to Horus standards but should be fun
[10:02] <navrac_work> enough room in the back for a real mission control
[10:03] <daveake> yep
[10:03] <daveake> and for large gas cylinders in the back :D
[10:03] <navrac_work> you mean it wont be up to horus standards initially....
[10:03] <daveake> (that's where the Pug really lets me down)
[10:03] <daveake> :D
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[10:04] <daveake> Kit #1 is a touchscreen monitor that Upu sent to me
[10:04] <navrac_work> I think you should invest in a doppler system for it - lots of pretty aerials
[10:04] <daveake> :D
[10:05] <navrac_work> a few years ago I had a renault espace i used for radio work - had a telescopic 30 foot mast out the sun roof
[10:05] <daveake> <dribble>
[10:06] <navrac_work> keep an eye out on ebay - and you can fit a co2 cylinder in there with no problem to pump it up
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[10:08] <daveake> Insurance was a laugh. We have a multi-car policy so I asked for a quote on that. Got told "you have to start with zero no-claims on an extra car". Called back next day and got handed 12-years NCB, halving the price.
[10:08] <navrac_work> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Aerial-Photogtaphy-26m-85ft-Telescopic-Mast-System-/140788295059?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item20c7a2e593
[10:09] <navrac_work> a little pricey.... but wow
[10:09] <daveake> It would more than quadruple the value of the car :D
[10:09] <daveake> but yea, want
[10:10] <gonzo__> my last car was an ex-police range rover, which in service had a pneumatic mast through the middle with a flood light system on the top.
[10:10] <gonzo__> shame they didn't leave it installed
[10:10] <daveake> lol
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[10:11] <LazyLeopard> Hmmm... http://www.camb-hams.com/flossie
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[10:11] <daveake> Unfortunately they do remove that stuff, and the lights and police signs
[10:11] <gonzo__> when I got it it had been refiotted with all the police kit again, for tv/film work. All but the mast
[10:11] <daveake> :)
[10:12] <navrac_work> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/9M-ALUMINIUM-ELEVATED-PNEUMATIC-PHOTOGRAPHY-MAST-/180931776404?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item2a205fcf94#ht_1857wt_1006
[10:12] <navrac_work> there you go - only doubles the price of the mast
[10:12] <gonzo__> I had to debadge it, as the kids kept nicking the cover up's for the police badges and I'd be driving around with it all on show
[10:12] <navrac_work> car sorry
[10:12] <daveake> lol
[10:13] <kokey> friend of mine bought an ex military land rover defender, which was a communications unit. it had no radio gear, but was fitted with a massive extra alternator and inverter
[10:13] <LazyLeopard> navrac_work: Look around for ex-military SCAM masts, and they're usually rather cheaper...
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[10:15] <kokey> when my current car dies, my next car is certainly going to be some kind of SUV again
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[10:26] <gonzo__> a lot of ex.mil LR's are 24V electrics. Far more sensible
[10:28] <nosebleedkt> I dont understand in what format to put the coordinates in the KML linestring
[10:28] <nosebleedkt> I use this tool http://www.earthpoint.us/BatchConvert.aspx
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[10:29] <nosebleedkt> It has many option to choose to convert to various format
[10:29] <nosebleedkt> formats*
[10:29] <nosebleedkt> I tried some but still when I open the KML it goes to asia :P
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[10:41] <nosebleedkt> well the habhub kml has coords like 23.0255,40.7199
[10:41] <nosebleedkt> but i have it the opposite way like 40.7199, 23.0255
[10:42] <upix> add appendices N/S E/W
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[10:56] <nosebleedkt> ok fixed
[10:57] <nosebleedkt> lol
[10:57] <nosebleedkt> the 3d plot looks ugly
[10:58] <nosebleedkt> contains i guess errors
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[11:34] <kokey> perhaps it really did move that way
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[13:05] <griffonbot> Received email: Neil Baker "Re: [UKHAS] Re: UKHAS Conference 2012"
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[13:10] <eroomde> oh god the I word again
[13:11] <WillDuckworth> la la la i can't hear you
[13:11] <Laurenceb> SMD soldering (theory, H+S doesn't allow us to actually do it!)
[13:11] <Laurenceb> :(
[13:13] <Laurenceb> elf and safety
[13:17] <kokey> I like how the list of people who has paid keeps getting shorter
[13:17] <daveake> lol
[13:17] <kokey> oh, no, work proxy server with aggressive caching
[13:17] <eroomde> i need to pay infact
[13:17] <eroomde> and then write a talk
[13:17] <daveake> Wonder what I could talk about
[13:18] <griffonbot> Received email: Anthony Stirk "Re: [UKHAS] Re: UKHAS Conference 2012"
[13:18] <Laurenceb> FROST CONTROL
[13:18] <daveake> "how to get payloads back from lost causes"
[13:18] <WillDuckworth> dunno eroomde
[13:18] <UpuWork> "using a Rasperberry Pi to boost internet searches volume for 'Dave Akerman'" ?
[13:18] <craag> lol
[13:19] <craag> I used to be on google page 1 for "hab raspberry pi"
[13:19] <UpuWork> "trees and how they find me"
[13:19] <craag> Now I've tried up to ~17 and it's still news sites about daveake.
[13:19] <fsphil> tree felling, a habbers guide
[13:19] <daveake> LOL
[13:20] <daveake> Yeah I'm beginning to learn how news on the internet works
[13:20] <kokey> well even for 'raspberry pi space'
[13:20] <daveake> even news for "raspberry pi camera" has me up in amongst the top few
[13:22] <Laurenceb> pispace
[13:22] <fsphil> pilon
[13:22] <Laurenceb> you need an assistant called tom
[13:22] <fsphil> why is LibreOffice's "build-in help" a separate download
[13:23] <Laurenceb> cuz otherwise itd be too easy?
[13:24] <fsphil> NCC-3.141
[13:24] <daveake> craag I just googled - hab raspberry pi - and you're #4 and #5, so don't feel too bad :)
[13:25] <craag> Oh
[13:25] <craag> 2 days ago it was all you!
[13:25] <daveake> It's probably that Google is bored iof me googling myself
[13:25] <craag> Hmm guess I need to actually get something going to be worthy of that placing..
[13:25] <daveake> do it :)
[13:26] <daveake> If it wasn't for the shite weather, I'd have launched it earlier, but without the live images
[13:26] <craag> Btw did you use debian or arch? I've been using arch but downloaded debian last night and it does seem to all fit together a little better.
[13:27] <daveake> Of course for the media, images are key
[13:27] <daveake> Debian
[13:27] <daveake> Patched to add the webcam support
[13:27] <daveake> But now, try this new raspbian thing
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[13:28] <craag> Yeah that's the one I downloaded last night. Brought it into work today to show it off, so it's sitting on my desk atm. :)
[13:28] <daveake> :)
[13:29] <daveake> I'll try the switched mode supplies this weekend
[13:29] <daveake> See how much power those save, and how noisy they are
[13:29] <craag> I'm using a 2A buck converter LT demo board I had lying around.
[13:30] <daveake> So 5V to tbe board with that?
[13:30] <daveake> I bought 2 so I can replace the onboard reg too
[13:30] <craag> Yeah, actually goes to stripboard with 3v3 reg for ublox+rfm22 and then 5V into the RPi header.
[13:31] <craag> Good plan.
[13:31] <craag> I've noticed that gets rather warm.
[13:31] <daveake> yes - that and the usb/ethernet chip
[13:31] <zyp> of course it does, it has to dissipate half as much power as the rest of the board
[13:32] <craag> mm, I noticed there was a reserved GPIO line that might be a POWER_ENABLE to the usb/ethernet chip.
[13:32] <craag> Haven't had the guts to try switching it off yet though.
[13:35] <griffonbot> Received email: Ed Moore "[UKHAS] Insurance"
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[13:41] <daveake> craag At the moment, I'm using the USB for the webcam. Of course I could power down for a while then back up when I need it again
[13:42] <daveake> However I'll have a chat with the RPi foundation about using one of the cameras they're working on
[13:42] <craag> Yeah definetely!
[13:44] <craag> Those look really quite good when combined with the onboard hardware encoding.
[13:44] <eroomde> h.264 over ntx2
[13:44] <eroomde> the future
[13:45] <craag> lol, maybe not so useful for payloads.
[13:46] <craag> But for stuff like a Pi + 3G dongle becomes a battery-powered H.264 internet Video stream.
[13:46] <craag> at 1080p (assuming good 3G)
[13:49] <griffonbot> Received email: Dave Hibberd "Re: [UKHAS] Insurance"
[13:53] <fsphil> rfm22b + really high gain antenna, might get enough bitrate to push h.264
[14:02] <craag> Wouldn't want to use RTTY though I don't think.
[14:02] <WillDuckworth> amazing how gmail decided to put an advert on the inbox page about insurance while reading ed's mail....
[14:02] <kokey> h.264 over morse
[14:02] <fsphil> definitely not -- would have to be one of the rfm22b's own modes
[14:03] <griffonbot> Received email: Anthony Stirk "Re: [UKHAS] Insurance"
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[14:04] Action: kokey looks at the ssdv code
[14:04] <fsphil> uhoh
[14:04] <WillDuckworth> it's quite neat - even has some comments
[14:05] <fsphil> lol
[14:05] <kokey> yeah, I'm also liking it
[14:05] <fsphil> the process() bit needs more comments
[14:05] <fsphil> it's a bit twisty
[14:06] <kokey> KA9Q, the man
[14:06] <daveake> comments? Can someone translate please?
[14:06] <daveake> :)
[14:06] <Darkside> fsphil: lol
[14:06] <Darkside> i was at a dinner with a few of the project horus guys
[14:06] <Darkside> and we had a chat about high bandwidth links from balloons
[14:07] <Darkside> 3g with an antenna pointing down won't work. 3g cells don't radiate up
[14:07] <fsphil> indeed
[14:07] <Darkside> 3g with antenna pointing out won't work. 3g limit is 280km
[14:07] <Darkside> 3g closer in won't work. too many cells, too shit ECIO, no throughput
[14:07] <fsphil> setup your own 3g station, aiming up?
[14:07] <Darkside> there was this discussion
[14:07] <Darkside> but can't do that legally
[14:08] <zyp> at that point, no need for it to be 3g
[14:08] <Darkside> yeah
[14:08] <Darkside> problem is, the link budget to run somethign like wifi is horrible
[14:08] <Darkside> you'd need a huge dish on the ground
[14:08] <Darkside> so yeah
[14:08] <zyp> you don't need duplex
[14:09] <Darkside> for what we want to do we would
[14:09] <fsphil> even if you limited yourself to one of the slower speeds like 1Mbit/s?
[14:09] <Darkside> fsphil: yeah likely
[14:09] <Darkside> i mean, its worth a shot
[14:09] <Darkside> anyway, if we wanted to do TV we'll be doing VSB ATV
[14:09] <griffonbot> Received email: John Graham-Cumming "Re: [UKHAS] Re: UKHAS Conference 2012"
[14:09] <craag> With the Pi it might be an option to do 4800/9600 baud GMSK audio into an NTX2?
[14:10] <Darkside> no
[14:10] <Darkside> you can't do that kind of baud rate in a standard FM radios deviation
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[14:10] <fsphil> sdr receiver would be ideal there
[14:10] <Darkside> 2400 baud is about where it caps out for standard 'FM'
[14:10] <Darkside> yeah
[14:10] <craag> It claims 10kbps datarate, I hadn't looked at the datasheet though.
[14:10] <Darkside> 9600 baud is possible with about 30KHz
[14:10] <Darkside> craag: yeah, huge bandwidth
[14:11] <chaoshax> Is anyone into fpv here?
[14:11] <kokey> 3g like gear would probably work well, if it wasn't for the license issues
[14:11] <Darkside> chaoshax: we can't do fpv from what we launch easily!
[14:11] <kokey> better than, say wimax
[14:11] <Darkside> kokey: if you could have a proper base station pointing up, then sure
[14:11] <fsphil> I know people here with gsm repeaters, but doubt they're legal at all
[14:11] <Darkside> but even though one of our team is a network engineer for the biggest mobile carrier in the country, even he can't pull that off
[14:11] <chaoshax> Darkside, Depends how high we are talking :D
[14:12] <Darkside> chaoshax: 35km?
[14:12] <fsphil> they use them to fill in bad signal areas
[14:12] <chaoshax> No chance then :D
[14:12] <Darkside> chaoshax: not no chance
[14:12] <Darkside> just hard
[14:12] <kokey> Darkside: what kind of bandwidth/distance are we talking about?
[14:12] <chaoshax> Yeah as you need very directional antennas and antenna tracking.
[14:12] <Darkside> kokey: well 3g will work over 35km just fine
[14:12] <craag> Someone needs to stand in front of a cell tower with a large metal reflector.
[14:12] <Darkside> but the issue is we can't get the gear or the license to run a base station on the ground
[14:12] <Darkside> craag: haha
[14:13] <chaoshax> Though you could do fpv on the way up though?
[14:13] <chaoshax> And the way down.
[14:13] <chaoshax> Just range will be limited.
[14:13] <fsphil> certainly
[14:14] <fsphil> only spelled correctly
[14:14] <Darkside> well we can get analog video down from peak altitude
[14:14] <Darkside> with 2W, on 70cm
[14:14] <fsphil> oh no it was correct
[14:14] Action: fsphil shuts up
[14:15] <Darkside> lol
[14:15] <Darkside> anyway, analog tv is possible
[14:16] <Darkside> and receivable with a standard tv
[14:16] <kokey> I wonder about DVB-H
[14:16] <craag> If we launched a legal 2.4GHz analog video system, we could probably get a fair few well-equipped ATV guys onside to give receiving a go and see how well it works.
[14:16] <craag> DVB is difficult due to CBR encoding.
[14:16] <Darkside> you won't receive it over more than a few km
[14:16] <Darkside> unless you use lots of power
[14:16] <chaoshax> It's all in the antennas.
[14:16] <kokey> and the competitor, flowview or whatever
[14:16] <griffonbot> Received email: Steve Aerospace "Re: [UKHAS] Insurance"
[14:17] <Darkside> more power, more heat dissipation, more batteries needed, more weight
[14:17] <chaoshax> Darkside, Ditch concentrating on power.
[14:17] <Darkside> and yes, since you can't put a directional antenna on the payload, it has to be on the ground
[14:17] <Darkside> and that means fucking big dish
[14:17] <chaoshax> People have done 30km with 10mw antennas.
[14:17] <chaoshax> On 5.8ghz lol
[14:17] <Darkside> 30km of what
[14:17] <chaoshax> Analog video.
[14:18] <craag> chaoshax: With an omni at one end?
[14:18] <Darkside> nige high gain antennas i bet
[14:18] <chaoshax> Yep.
[14:18] <chaoshax> With an omni on the tx end.
[14:18] <Darkside> and whats on the other end?
[14:18] <kokey> if only you could do FEC on analog ;-)
[14:18] <chaoshax> High gain antenna with an antenna tracking system.
[14:18] <fsphil> FM is a kind of FEC :)
[14:18] <craag> How high gain are we talking?
[14:19] <kokey> yeah like parity bits are
[14:19] <craag> I'm guessing very.
[14:19] <Darkside> at those frequencies high gain antennas can be smallish
[14:19] <chaoshax> I will send link
[14:19] <Darkside> but again, more path loss
[14:19] <craag> mm
[14:19] <chaoshax> http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1441664
[14:19] <gonzo__> you could have two TX sending the same picture. Just get one to send it before it happens. That would be FEC?
[14:19] <chaoshax> k he did 20km, I was off a bit.
[14:19] <Darkside> 18.7km with 200mw
[14:20] <fsphil> that would be dark magic gonzo__
[14:20] <chaoshax> Umm let me find the 10mw one
[14:20] <gonzo__> hehe
[14:20] <kokey> not impossible if you travel really fast
[14:20] <gonzo__> yep, but the doppler shift could be excessive
[14:21] <gonzo__> -ve frequency
[14:21] <Darkside> ok so that wasnt reliable at 18km though
[14:21] <chaoshax> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RdCiJ0StJ8 this is 5km with 8dbi
[14:22] <Darkside> at 2.4ghz
[14:22] <Darkside> yes
[14:22] <Darkside> this kinds of ranges are possible - we know they are, and we've done the link budgets on them
[14:23] <Darkside> if we were to do it, we'd do 2W of analog tv on 445MHz
[14:23] <Darkside> and thats what we're currently aiming for
[14:23] <gonzo__> I still have an idea of flying a small analogue cam on a launch. Have a 3mtr that could be used on rx
[14:23] <kokey> you just don't want to lift a car battery up with it I guess
[14:23] <chaoshax> Darkside, Have you tested to see that gps is OK with that 2w system?
[14:23] <Darkside> chaoshax: gps would be in another payload 20m up the balloon train
[14:24] <chaoshax> Ahh OK, yeah 2w could drown it out.
[14:24] <Darkside> not necessarily
[14:24] <Darkside> but we've flown voice repeaters putting out that kind of power before
[14:24] <craag> I blew up my phone gps with 5W of 144MHz :P
[14:24] <Darkside> but yeah, we keep them away from the telemetry payloads
[14:24] <gonzo__> 3dh harmonic could get in through any GPS filters
[14:25] <Darkside> 1335MHz?
[14:25] <gonzo__> the ceramic filters are not very tight
[14:25] <Darkside> they're tighter than that...
[14:25] <chaoshax> Darkside, What telemetry are you going to send down?
[14:26] <Darkside> chaoshax: we always have positioning telemetry payloads
[14:26] <gonzo__> and lots of gps ants seem to be unfiltered, relying on the tuning of the ceramic patch ant
[14:26] <Darkside> chaoshax: you do know what this channel is about, right? >_>
[14:26] <chaoshax> Yes, ha ha.
[14:26] <Darkside> gonzo__: pretty sure the ublox modules are reasonable
[14:26] <chaoshax> I was just wondering if you send down anything else other than position.
[14:26] <Darkside> temperature
[14:26] <Darkside> lol
[14:26] <chaoshax> Such as battery voltages.
[14:26] <Darkside> yeah, that too
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[14:28] <Darkside> position is the most important though. if we do anything new and fancy, that goes onto another payload with a separate downlink
[14:28] <Darkside> as the positioning payload needs to be super reliable
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[14:52] <Laurenceb> i was wondering about using one of the long wave timing stations
[14:52] <Laurenceb> and locking an si4432 to it
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[14:52] <Laurenceb> then you might be able to get position from multiple ground stations
[14:53] <Laurenceb> but youd need frequency locked ground stations
[14:53] <Darkside> interestingly, some radiosondes used to work like that
[14:53] <fsphil> yea, they repeated the LW band didn't they?
[14:54] <Darkside> where they'd remodulate the ye olde longwave position stations onto 400MHz
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[14:58] <Laurenceb> hmm
[14:58] <Laurenceb> yeah if it jumped between stations
[15:04] <fsphil> bah, forgot how annoying and messy polystyrene is
[15:04] <fsphil> I need a hot wire cutter
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[15:09] <Laurenceb> http://alancordwell.co.uk/radio/teleswitch1.html
[15:09] <Laurenceb> hmm
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[15:14] <gonzo__> think the LW they are talking about is the old LORAN system
[15:15] <gonzo__> was going to be turned off, but apptly it got a reprieve
[15:15] <kokey> fsphil: some friends of mine, way back, thought it would be a nice idea to make a chill room at a party. they got a UV light, and filled a room about half a foot deep with polystyrene balls normally used for insulation
[15:16] <kokey> fsphil: actually, it made a great chill room, except that the little balls are part of your life for a long time afterwards
[15:16] <kokey> I even found some inside of my phone a few months latr
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[15:16] <fsphil> I'm not surprised-- I'm still finding bits from the last payload box I made
[15:17] <fsphil> and that was about 8 months ago
[15:17] <fsphil> gonzo__: the BBC Radio 4 signal on LW carries timing and other data
[15:18] <kokey> it was funny during that night, we went to a nearby shop, and found traces of other party members there
[15:18] <gonzo__> a long time ago, when drunk, we fed a load of polystyrene through a big fan and giggling that it was snowing. Had a long time cleaning up when later sober
[15:18] <fsphil> lol
[15:19] <gonzo__> you won't get positional data off R4, but rebroadcasting loran, you can decode the data on the ground
[15:19] <kokey> I remember my friend cleaning the bearings of his skate board, and put it in a cup of petrol
[15:20] <kokey> he used a polystyrene cup
[15:20] <gonzo__> they disolve fiarly imopressivly
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[15:20] <gonzo__> like something from a scifi film
[15:20] <kokey> yeah it's amazing
[15:20] <fsphil> acid for blood
[15:21] <kokey> it's funny, he put down the cup, put the bearings in, filled it with petrol, and looked back towards his skate board to take the other bearings off
[15:21] <kokey> when he looked back the cup was gone, just a puddle with bearings
[15:21] <gonzo__> drained a carb on the roadside last year and all I had was a plastic beaker. Same effect
[15:22] <gonzo__> puddle and a round sticky ring
[15:22] <gonzo__> (ooer)
[15:23] <Laurenceb> if you had two stations like DCF77 you could do 2d positioning
[15:24] <Laurenceb> - dcf77 uses spread spectrum psk
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[15:34] <Laurenceb> oooh i didnt know about eLORAN
[15:34] <Laurenceb> looks perfect for supor cheap hab
[15:35] <Laurenceb> coil and a stm32 doing direct sampling
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[15:38] <gonzo__> or just transpond to UHF then do the processing on the ground
[15:42] <Laurenceb> http://www.rapidonline.com/Electrical-Power/MW-LW-Ferrite-rod-aerial-73119
[15:43] <Laurenceb> yeah but thats more rf crazyness
[15:43] <Laurenceb> but yeah i bet you could do it with a simple transistor circuit
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[15:47] <Laurenceb> or as loran is delay based you could do the timing onboard and send the data along with the other telemetry
[15:49] <Laurenceb> or something like that
[15:49] <Laurenceb> would help if the eloran specs were avaliable
[15:53] <Gadget-Mac> daveake: What the implications on battery size because of the Pi ?
[15:53] <daveake> Well you need more :)
[15:54] <daveake> Typical Arduino or PIC uses 60mA-80mA total
[15:54] <daveake> Multiply by 8
[15:54] <Gadget-Mac> whats that in watts ?
[15:55] <daveake> Depends on your regulator
[15:55] <daveake> And how many batteries
[15:56] <Gadget-Mac> Ok, lets talk 5v watts into the Pi :)
[15:56] <daveake> Current draw is about 500mA
[15:57] <Gadget-Mac> so ~2.5w
[15:57] <daveake> In the Pi
[15:57] <daveake> Plus regulator loss
[15:57] <Gadget-Mac> Which is of course then coverted using those horrible regs
[15:58] <daveake> Almost all is on the 3.3V line, so yes you have (5 - 3.3) * 450mA say loss in that reg
[15:58] <daveake> Which you can of course remove to do it with a switching reg
[15:58] <Gadget-Mac> Yup
[15:58] <daveake> Details on the web - it's been done
[15:58] <Gadget-Mac> Indeed. Kinda neat
[15:59] <daveake> In my slightly mad Pi flight, I had 8 AAs into a linear regulator. I'm sure you can calculate the approx (in)efficiency
[15:59] <daveake> Er, 6
[15:59] <daveake> sorry
[15:59] <Gadget-Mac> I could, but I don't think there's much point
[16:00] <Gadget-Mac> Ok, interesting stuff, as I'm aware of a possible alternative to the Pi that might be more suited
[16:01] <daveake> The aim was to fly the Pi, for which job it is very well suited :p
[16:02] <daveake> Of course, depending on the aims, there are lots of boards that may be more or less suitable for a particular flight
[16:02] <Gadget-Mac> Sure.
[16:02] <Gadget-Mac> I guess USB webcams make pi the obvious choice
[16:03] <daveake> Yeah, that's what got me interested. Cheap board; cheap and easy webcam access
[16:03] <daveake> Serial cameras are around £50 - more than the Pi plus SD plus webcam
[16:04] <Gadget-Mac> Did you still have a seperate avionics package ?
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[16:05] <daveake> A what now? GPS was into the Pi, and out through the rtty along with the images. That was it
[16:05] <Gadget-Mac> Ok. Cool
[16:08] <Laurenceb> how did you do rtty?
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[16:09] <daveake> UART --> NTX2
[16:09] <daveake> with resistors as usual
[16:09] <daveake> Too easy
[16:09] <daveake> :)
[16:10] <Gadget-Mac> Whats an NTX2 ?
[16:10] Action: Gadget-Mac dons n000bie hat
[16:10] <daveake> FM radio transmitter see the wiki
[16:10] <daveake> Waggle voltage in it beeps different frequencies out
[16:11] <Gadget-Mac> hehe
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[16:13] <fsphil> any uk launches this weekend?
[16:13] <Gadget-Mac> Sounds like I need to get my radio stuff back on-line for a start
[16:16] <jonsowman> fsphil: http://hourly.cusf.co.uk
[16:16] <jonsowman> :|
[16:16] <fsphil> cutting it a bit fine there
[16:16] <daveake> Eany Meany Miny ...
[16:17] <daveake> "CUSF flight shot down over London"
[16:17] <jonsowman> indeed
[16:17] <daveake> Well, it'd get you more news coverage than I managed :p
[16:17] <jonsowman> haha
[16:17] <jonsowman> no such thing as bad publicity and all
[16:17] <daveake> mmmm
[16:17] <jonsowman> not entirely sure if i agree
[16:18] <jonsowman> next weekend maybe
[16:18] <fsphil> I need to give this amp some waves to play with
[16:18] <jonsowman> plug into soundcard
[16:18] <jonsowman> open audacity
[16:18] <jonsowman> profit
[16:19] <fsphil> 434mhz preamp :)
[16:19] <LazyLeopard> Heh, the southern-most landing prediction bursts almost straigh overhead here... ;)
[16:19] <jonsowman> fsphil: ah
[16:19] <jonsowman> perhaps not then
[16:19] <fsphil> playing rtty very loud wouldn't go down too well with the neighbours
[16:20] <jonsowman> haha
[16:20] <fsphil> "He's playing that dubstep stuff again"
[16:20] <jonsowman> :D
[16:21] <Gadget-Mac> daveake: ntx2 was direct drive from the Pi gpio UART then ?
[16:21] <daveake> That's what I said
[16:21] <daveake> Well, 3 resistors (2 for biad 1 for level)
[16:21] <daveake> bias
[16:22] <daveake> It's in the wiki ....
[16:22] <jonsowman> i should write up the gnuradio/rtl-sdr stuff
[16:22] <jonsowman> one day
[16:22] <Gadget-Mac> daveake: I'm reading the wiki don't worry.
[16:23] <kokey> jonsowman: I'm going to be playing with that this weekend
[16:23] <jonsowman> kokey: cool, do you want my grc flowgraph?
[16:23] <jonsowman> it's at http://hexoc.com/u/rtl-rtty.tar if you do, anyway
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[16:40] <kokey> jonsowman: ah, yes, thanks, I've mucked with some flowgraphs before but this will probably save me stacks of time
[16:40] <jonsowman> give me a shout if i can be of any help
[16:40] <jonsowman> :)
[16:41] <kokey> I suppose it doesn't do the rtty decoding tho, does it?
[16:41] <jonsowman> nope
[16:41] <kokey> oooh >RTTY Demodulator for RTLSDR
[16:41] <jonsowman> yes i've been thinking about that
[16:42] <jonsowman> i'm sure it's doable
[16:42] <jonsowman> at the moment i just use portaudio to direct the audio output to fldigi
[16:42] <kokey> yeah, though I'd rather lean towards something that's easy to port between platforms
[16:42] <jonsowman> yeah
[16:43] <kokey> ok, home time
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[17:39] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[17:40] <Lunar_Lander> hi jcoxon
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[18:01] <nosebleedkt> yo
[18:02] <Lunar_Lander> hello nosebleedkt
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[18:03] <nosebleedkt> tomorrow is the recovery day :)
[18:03] <Lunar_Lander> cool
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[18:17] <Lunar_Lander> daveake, hello
[18:17] <Lunar_Lander> mind to look at some code of me?
[18:17] <Lunar_Lander> please
[18:17] <jonsowman> it's best to ask the whole channel rather than one person
[18:17] <jonsowman> since they might be busy and others can help
[18:17] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[18:18] <jonsowman> not that daveake is not likely to help or anything :)
[18:18] <Lunar_Lander> :) yea
[18:18] <Lunar_Lander> OK
[18:18] <Lunar_Lander> would anyone like to look at some code of mine?
[18:18] <jonsowman> paste a link and ask your question
[18:19] <jonsowman> i'm sure someone will help
[18:19] <Lunar_Lander> http://paste.ubuntu.com/1102186/
[18:19] <Lunar_Lander> I tried this program today
[18:19] <Lunar_Lander> and I wrote in the comments what are my issues
[18:19] <Lunar_Lander> i.e. the prime issue is statusLED() at the end
[18:21] <daveake> Erm ... what are your TRYING to do?
[18:21] <daveake> Normally I can guess :)
[18:21] <daveake> And whatever it is, delay() isn't the answer
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[18:22] <Lunar_Lander> I wanted to construct a function that controls the status LEDs and I just made some random criteria for that
[18:22] <daveake> What do you want the LEDs to DO?
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[18:22] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[18:22] <daveake> i.e. in simple English logic
[18:23] <Lunar_Lander> I just wanted the red LED to come on when I disconnected the battery pack that I had on the voltage divider circuit
[18:23] <Lunar_Lander> and the yellow one should come on when humidity would be above 60 %
[18:23] <daveake> 2 lines of code done
[18:23] <Lunar_Lander> and both should be off if temperature was above 30°
[18:23] <Lunar_Lander> just 2 lines?
[18:24] <daveake> In almost-code:
[18:24] <daveake> digitalWrite(RedLedPin, Voltage < some_limit);
[18:24] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[18:24] <daveake> Oh, one mo
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[18:24] <jonsowman> i imagine the LEDs flashing is because you're turning them on in StatusLED() then off again in LEDShutdown()
[18:24] <daveake> yup
[18:25] <jonsowman> the delay is because get_temp() has one-wire searching and stuff
[18:25] <jonsowman> and will take a noticeable amount of time
[18:25] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[18:25] <jonsowman> on the order of 10s of milliseconds at a guess
[18:25] <daveake> digitalWrite(RedLedPin, (Voltage < some_limit) && (temperature <= 30)
[18:25] <daveake> and another bracket, but you get the idea I hope
[18:25] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[18:25] <Lunar_Lander> thanks
[18:25] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[18:26] <daveake> You English logic didn't say "if something then flash fo x ms" so your code should NOT have a delay() call
[18:26] <daveake> and if you did want a flash, it's better to switch the LED on then set a counter or timer or something to turn the LED off later
[18:26] <jonsowman> it might be wise to put a few lines of comment above each function explaining what it should do, what parameters it takes and what it returns
[18:27] <jonsowman> even if it seems obvious right now
[18:27] <daveake> ^^ Very good advice
[18:27] <jonsowman> it helps other people read your code, and will help you in the future when you come back to it
[18:27] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[18:27] <Lunar_Lander> thanks
[18:27] <daveake> Mind you, in one code review I was at, a guy reading some code (not mine) said ... "Well I see what the code's doing, but I haven't a f-ing clue what these comments mean"
[18:27] <Lunar_Lander> sorry I forgot to say it, first I wanted the yellow LED to flash
[18:27] <Lunar_Lander> oh
[18:27] <daveake> ARRRGHH
[18:28] <Randomskk> daveake: there's definitely a balance
[18:28] <daveake> change of spec already :)
[18:28] <Randomskk> also you really must update comments when you update code
[18:28] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[18:28] <jonsowman> // main() - the main function -- is just as bad
[18:28] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[18:28] <daveake> LL, get it working without any flashing. Add flashing later.
[18:28] <Randomskk> at work we try and write entirely blindingly obvious code, and comment the few hard bits, but factor those hard bits out into other functions with obvious names
[18:28] <daveake> jonsowman Yup
[18:28] <Randomskk> jonsowman: I like things such as
[18:28] <daveake> And x++; // increment x
[18:28] <Randomskk> you beat me to it :(
[18:28] <jonsowman> lol yes
[18:29] <daveake> For a start it should be i++ as any FORTRAN programmer knows :D
[18:29] <Randomskk> though I usually see like
[18:29] <Randomskk> //increment number of subscribers
[18:29] <Randomskk> num_subscribers++;
[18:29] <daveake> lol
[18:29] <Lunar_Lander> daveake, yeah, I actually got it working with steady on and off
[18:29] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[18:29] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[18:29] <Randomskk> as though it's "helpful"
[18:29] <daveake> I once did // Look, I know the next line looks wrong, but it's that way to work round a compiler bug
[18:29] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[18:29] <jonsowman> yes, i've had a few of those
[18:30] Action: jonsowman looks at C18
[18:30] <Randomskk> lol c18
[18:30] <daveake> Don't start .... :)
[18:30] <jonsowman> lol
[18:30] <jonsowman> sorry
[18:31] <daveake> LL, for a flash, I suggest you do something like Switch LED on, set "LEDWasOnAt = millis()", and if (millis() > (LEDWasOnAt+100) Switch LED Off
[18:31] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[18:31] <Lunar_Lander> something like in the BlinkWithoutDelay example?
[18:31] <daveake> Assuming you don't really care if it's 100 or 140ms or something then just do this in your main loop
[18:31] <daveake> Avoid delay() calls in your main loop
[18:32] <Lunar_Lander> ok
[18:32] <daveake> You generally want the main loop to run as fast as possible
[18:32] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[18:32] <daveake> If say the LED was rtty or something else needing accurate timing, use a timer
[18:32] <daveake> But that's another lesson
[18:32] <daveake> And I'm hungry
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[18:34] <Lunar_Lander> yea
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[19:42] <Lunar_Lander> wb daveake
[19:42] <Lunar_Lander> thanks again
[19:45] <griffonbot> Received email: Neil Baker "Re: [UKHAS] Insurance"
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[21:05] <Laurenceb_> anyone got SDRsharp running on linux?
[21:05] <Laurenceb_> im getting System.TypeInitializationException: An exception was thrown by the type initializer for PortAudioSharp.PortAudioAPI ---> System.DllNotFoundException: portaudio
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[22:04] <Laurenceb_> anyone home?
[22:04] <kokey> me
[22:04] <kokey> briefly
[22:06] Action: Laurenceb_ is trying to get SDRSharp running on linux
[22:07] <kokey> ouch
[22:07] <Upu> brave man
[22:07] <kokey> well, that said, I'm fighting with macports to get gnuradio compiled
[22:10] <Laurenceb_> System.Configuration.ConfigurationErrorsException: Type 'System.Configuration.DictionarySectionHandler' not found.
[22:10] <Laurenceb_> funtimes
[22:10] <Laurenceb_> cant find anything for that error
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[22:24] <kokey> too bad strace is not much help with windows apps
[22:27] <Laurenceb_> http://i.qkme.me/6rcq.jpg
[22:30] <Lunar_Lander> hello Upu
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[22:33] <Laurenceb_> maybe i should try something else
[22:33] <Laurenceb_> SDRSharp looks very nice
[22:33] <Laurenceb_> whats hot?
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[22:41] <Laurenceb_> gqrx tiem
[22:41] <fsphil> it's quite nice
[22:41] <fsphil> needs a waterfall zoom
[22:42] <Lunar_Lander> hi fsphil
[22:42] <fsphil> yo LL
[22:44] Nick change: fsphil -> Mars_Rover
[22:45] <Laurenceb_> wtf
[22:45] <Laurenceb_> it wont compile
[22:45] <Laurenceb_> epic rage
[22:46] <Laurenceb_> /home/laurence/Gqrx/gqrx-build-desktop/../gqrx/applications/gqrx/receiver.h:23: error: gr_top_block.h: No such file or directory
[22:46] <Laurenceb_> wtf
[22:46] <Mars_Rover> your gnuradio is too old
[22:46] <Laurenceb_> i cloned git and opened in qt creator
[22:46] Nick change: Mars_Rover -> fsphil
[22:46] <Laurenceb_> oh
[22:46] <Laurenceb_> lmao
[22:46] <fsphil> or you don't have it installed
[22:46] <Laurenceb_> correction - its not even installed
[22:46] <fsphil> yea
[22:46] <fsphil> top_block I'm sure has been around for a while :)
[22:49] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[22:50] <Laurenceb_> wow its big
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[22:55] <kokey> seems like boost 1.5 is the problem I'm having with gnuradio on macports
[22:55] <kokey> downgrading to 1.49
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[23:00] <kokey> we know how to have fun on a friday night
[23:00] <fsphil> lol
[23:01] <kokey> well, we were out, went to the rainbow cafe in london, and a few pubs
[23:01] <kokey> now I'm compiling gnuradio
[23:02] <fsphil> I was on a trampoline all day
[23:02] <kokey> wow, that can be exhausting
[23:02] <fsphil> it is!
[23:02] <kokey> oh, I meant rainforest cafe
[23:03] <kokey> tourist trap
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[23:08] <kokey> cool, downgrading boost fixes my gnuradio compiling issues, it seems, got gruel, core etc. compiled
[23:08] <Laurenceb_> hmm same issue
[23:09] <Laurenceb_> do i need a dev version of gnuradio?
[23:09] <kokey> I'm compiling all this while running on my 3.5 year old laptop battery
[23:09] <kokey> Laurenceb_: this is with macports on OSX, compiler error with some boost stuff when compiling gruel
[23:10] <kokey> sound a way to install one version down of boost... https://trac.macports.org/ticket/35128
[23:10] <Laurenceb_> hmm
[23:11] <kokey> you know someone should be nice to set up a nice multi platform build rig for gnuradio binaries
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[23:15] <Laurenceb_> it cant find the headers
[23:15] <kokey> on linux?
[23:15] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[23:16] <kokey> sounds like something-devel is not installated, especially if it's redhat/centos
[23:16] <Laurenceb_> /home/laurence/Gqrx/gqrx-build-desktop/../gqrx/applications/gqrx/receiver.h:23: error: gr_top_block.h: No such file or directory
[23:17] <kokey> gr_top_block.h is part of gnuradio-core
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[23:19] <kokey> you probably need to point it to your gnuradio source somehow
[23:21] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[23:21] <Laurenceb_> hmm will try tomorrow
[23:21] <Laurenceb_> cya
[23:22] <kokey> Open gqrx.pro in Qt Creator and click build.
[23:22] <kokey> don't know anything about Qt Creator
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[23:27] <kokey> looks like I might be able to leave gnuradio to compile through the night
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[23:34] <DanielRichman> kokey: wow uh... what's your CPU?
[23:34] <DanielRichman> I don't remember it taking /that/ long
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[23:35] <kokey> this is a macbook from late 2008
[23:42] <DanielRichman> are you using make -j3 /-j5 / whatever?
[23:43] <kokey> done compiling now
[23:43] <kokey> hehe, yeah I was thinking to myself thank goodness I wasn't setting it to higher optimisation levels
[23:48] <zamabe> Why would that be a bad thing? "Compiling this thing takes fucking forever. Good thing it'll run slow as shit so the compile takes less time."
[23:48] <kokey> he was talking about -j<n> and I was talking about -O<n>
[23:48] <zamabe> that it what I understood, yes.
[23:48] <zamabe> is*
[23:50] <DanielRichman> anyway I was gonna say that if it took overnight to compile, you might have not much fun running something like gnuradio
[23:50] <DanielRichman> but doesn't appear to be that bad :P
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[23:54] <kokey> it wasn't very fast under a linux VM
[23:54] <kokey> so I'll see how it goes under native macos
[23:55] <kokey> ok, grc runs
[23:55] <kokey> bedtime
[00:00] --- Sat Jul 21 2012