highaltitude.log.20120711

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[00:55] <griffonbot> Received email: vk3jmc "[UKHAS] Re: SDR Front End Filter + a warning about the Dongle"
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[04:36] <markdownunder> @Darkside - afternoon
[04:39] <Darkside> hey markdownunder
[04:41] <markdownunder> hi - where did you find a decent map of south Oz that you can download?
[04:42] <Darkside> didn't download them lol
[04:42] <Darkside> they kind of got shared around
[04:43] <Darkside> the topo maps i mean
[04:43] <markdownunder> can they be bought somwhere
[04:43] <Darkside> yeah, but they're bloody expensive
[04:43] <markdownunder> who sells them
[04:43] <markdownunder> i obviously need one of WA not SA
[04:44] <Darkside> yeah, not sure tbh!
[04:44] <markdownunder> i'm not sure i have cached enough in Google Earth
[04:44] <Darkside> all the ones i have i got from the other guys
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[07:15] <fsphil> morning fine people of the channel
[07:17] <MrScienceMan> top of the morning to you sir
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[07:29] <nosebleed_> :)
[07:34] <jcoxon> so i'm playing with solar power
[07:34] <UpuWork> morning
[07:34] <Darkside> \o
[07:34] <UpuWork> does it work jcoxon ?
[07:34] <jcoxon> and of course it won't boot as the gps draws too much initially
[07:34] <jcoxon> before i can turn it off
[07:34] <Darkside> fix the brownout detection
[07:34] <jcoxon> so i'm going to add my backup batteries anyway
[07:34] <Darkside> or use some other kind of external supervisory system
[07:35] <UpuWork> let me know how you get on with that circuit
[07:35] <jcoxon> so the plan is to first try with a diode network with solar and lipo (for testing)
[07:35] <jcoxon> but is there a way of monitoring which source its drawing from?
[07:35] <UpuWork> Isn't there an IC that can do the switching ?
[07:35] <jcoxon> i guess i'd measure current from either source
[07:38] <fsphil> a comparator maybe
[07:38] <fsphil> whichever has the higher voltage will be the one powering it
[07:38] <jcoxon> yeah
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[09:30] <eroomde> Laurenceb: i believe it's on the record that hydrogen and oxygen are the only consumables on skylon
[09:30] <eroomde> keep trying
[09:33] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: Hideous. No coffee?
[09:33] <SpeedEvil> I'm never flying it.
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[09:56] <navrac_> Its just not going to stop raining is it? I wonder if you can treat a balloon so the water just runs off it.
[09:56] <jcoxon> eek
[09:56] <Randomskk> you probably could
[09:56] <SpeedEvil> Perhaps you could make it from rubber or something.
[09:56] <Randomskk> perhaps some kind of natural rubber
[09:59] <costyn> navrac_: weather is terrible on the other side of the north sea too. we've had nothing but clouds with rain the past few weeks and the forecast isn't showing any improvement in the forseable future
[09:59] <costyn> sometimes, when it rains too much: https://plus.google.com/photos/113785320591441846925/albums/5763840680207094961/5763840681758498018
[09:59] <navrac_> I've had everything built and tested since saturday and every day
[10:00] <navrac_> it rains
[10:00] <Randomskk> D:
[10:00] <navrac_> very good
[10:04] <jcoxon> navrac_, patience is the key in habbing
[10:04] <jcoxon> or things go wrong...
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[10:05] <navrac_> well i was patient when it was good weather but I was too busy at work to launch, now I'm not so busy the weathers poor - so I have been patient for 3 months
[10:06] <navrac_> I'm just dying to know whether my calculations are right and the balloon floats rather than bursts
[10:07] <jcoxon> hehe
[10:07] <jcoxon> they'll be a break in the weather
[10:07] <jcoxon> just need to grab it
[10:07] <jcoxon> how about an evening launch?
[10:08] <navrac_> well tomorrow doesnt look too bad - but the electricity board have decided to deprieve me of power all day
[10:08] <jcoxon> oh
[10:08] <jcoxon> bbiab
[10:08] <navrac_> and I let my dad borrow my inverter - which he then left in his caravan when he sold it
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[10:08] <Randomskk> could always get a new inverter
[10:08] <Randomskk> handy things
[10:09] <Randomskk> not that expensive either
[10:09] <navrac_> well ive got a generator - but i lent that to someone and its now 200 miles away and seized
[10:09] <daveake> After I ran Julie's car flat at a launch, I bought one of those car starter / inverter things to take with us
[10:09] <Randomskk> could always get a new inverter
[10:09] <Randomskk> ;P
[10:10] <daveake> Just went for the heaviest one in Maplins on the assumption that heaviest = biggest battery
[10:10] <daveake> :)
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[10:11] <navrac_> wife has the car all day tomorrow - - I suppose laptop plus router isnt a huger current draw - could probably connect a ups to a spare car battery
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[10:13] <SpeedEvil> I have a UPS connected to a 110Ah 12V battery.
[10:13] <SpeedEvil> It will keep my core stuff running 24h
[10:16] <Randomskk> pretty nice. how often do you need it?
[10:16] <Randomskk> my home UPS needs a new battery...
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[10:16] <craag> I tried doing, but annoyingly my UPS turns itself off if there's less than 50W load on it, haven't figured out how to disable that yet.
[10:16] <SpeedEvil> Randomskk: Enough that I need to write a letter to the electricity company to possibly claim my refund due to power standards.
[10:17] <Randomskk> hah nice
[10:20] <hitman_> hi guys, im considering buying a NXT2 radio transmitter for my balloon, any suggestions would be helpful
[10:23] <Randomskk> they're good
[10:23] <daveake> Well, there are 2 to choose from - 434.650MHz and 434.075MHz. If you have a receiver, check to see which frequency has less local noisenearby, and choose that
[10:24] <daveake> You can buy them from http://ava.upuaut.net/store/
[10:24] <hitman_> cheers
[10:24] <daveake> I keep both in case I want to fly at the same time as someone else, then I can swap frequencies if necessary
[10:27] <hitman_> daveake: are you based in halifax ? if so i was jst about to email you
[10:27] <UpuWork> thats me
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[10:32] <KT5TK> I've made some upudates to the Pecan Nut design: http://kt5tk.tkrahn.com/download/PecanNut/
[10:33] <KT5TK> Good to know how to clean up the silk screen. Thanks.
[10:34] <Randomskk> compact design
[10:34] <Randomskk> have you tested that radio layout and config?
[10:34] <Randomskk> the adf, I mean
[10:35] <Randomskk> a very long trace from its radio out to your antenna connector, running over a broken groundplane and parallel to some random other things...
[10:35] <Randomskk> though fair enough with the amp etc I guess
[10:35] <KT5TK> I've been reading about several ADF7012 projects. Instead of making a separate board I want to test it on one of the 10 boards I get.
[10:36] <Randomskk> fair enough
[10:36] <Randomskk> it can be a faffy radio
[10:36] <KT5TK> The long antenna trace is a directional coupler.
[10:37] <Randomskk> yea, just saw it on the schematic
[10:37] <Randomskk> kinda neat
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[10:37] <KT5TK> At 7cm total board length this is probably neglectable at 144 MHz
[10:37] <Randomskk> aah okay, 2m, fair enough
[10:38] <KT5TK> It should be usable at 70 cms though.
[10:38] <KT5TK> with different low pass filters.
[10:39] <Randomskk> mreh I wouldn't want more than 5 centimetres at 70cm without a matched line
[10:39] <Randomskk> but tbh yea it'd still "work"
[10:39] <Randomskk> plus that 20dB amp will make up for a lot of things
[10:39] <KT5TK> Even thought about a dual band version
[10:40] <KT5TK> Similar LPF like in those small Baofeng radios.
[10:40] <Randomskk> would be pretty neat
[10:41] <KT5TK> I'll build one or two and do some testing.
[10:41] <KT5TK> So far I've always used the SRB145 module.
[10:42] <KT5TK> SRB-MX145 to be precise.
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[11:48] <jcoxon> hey all
[11:49] <jdtanner1> Afternoon&I've just ordered a job lot of the little BAV99 diode that is missing from the EZCap. I'd be happy to post them out if people want to send me a SAE?
[11:49] <jdtanner1> Free of charge&just stamp your envelope
[11:50] <jdtanner1> Email me at j.d.tanner@gmail.com if you are interested and I'll send you my address
[11:50] <jdtanner1> :)
[11:52] <jcoxon> here is a highaltitude question
[11:52] <jcoxon> so lipos don't do well in cold temps
[11:53] <jcoxon> if they get cold but then warm up again will they retain their charge?
[11:53] <jcoxon> i assume the drop in cold temps is related to internal resistance increasing
[11:55] <UpuWork> hey jdtanner1 should have asked I have a pile as well :)
[11:55] <UpuWork> sounds like it needs testing jcoxon
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[11:56] <jdtanner1> :) It is probably cheaper to get 30 of Ebay for a couple of quid than faffin about with SAEs&but who knows :D
[11:56] <fsphil> hah, two of which just arrived this moment. ta UpuWork
[11:56] <UpuWork> welcom
[11:56] <UpuWork> e
[11:57] <jcoxon> UpuWork, i think having a lipo will help with the solar panels
[11:57] <jcoxon> either that or a supercap
[11:57] <UpuWork> I have no experience with solar panels
[11:57] <jcoxon> it would allow things to function even if your lithium energizers were dead
[11:58] <UpuWork> indeed
[11:58] <UpuWork> its of interest
[11:58] <jcoxon> basically its a hybrid/hybrid setup
[11:58] <UpuWork> daveake and I are going to make a super pressure balloon out of Tescos carrier bags
[11:58] <UpuWork> * not really
[11:58] <jcoxon> hehe
[11:58] <daveake> Waitrose
[11:58] <UpuWork> better quality
[11:59] <jcoxon> use a bag for life
[11:59] <jcoxon> :p
[11:59] <daveake> :)
[11:59] <gonzo_> or latex balloons from gloves
[11:59] <UpuWork> not sure "stout hessian" is a good balloon material
[11:59] <gonzo_> (or the other things)
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[13:23] <hitman_> Hi guys , im using SCP 1000 sensors to give me pressure and temperature data but they are limited to operating temperatures of -40C to +70C which would be a problem. Any suggestions?
[13:23] <nick_> Why would it be a problem?
[13:23] <daveake> I've used one. Worked fine.
[13:24] <daveake> It got down to -53 on one of my flights, where the insulation was a - minimal, and b - ineffective
[13:26] <hitman_> i thought it would not record between 15-25km as the temperature is below -40C
[13:26] <Darkside> it'll probably work
[13:26] <Darkside> though it'll bottom out at -40 degrees
[13:27] <hitman_> thts fine
[13:27] <gonzo_> that will bring tears to it's eyes
[13:30] <Darkside> which will promptly freeze
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[13:39] <Laurenceb> why do i see /dev/sdd and /dev/sdd1 when i connect usb mass storage?
[13:39] <Randomskk> your USB drive is /dev/sdd and it has one partition, /dev/sdd1
[13:39] <Laurenceb> ah
[13:40] <Laurenceb> why does hdparm give different results on each?
[13:40] <Randomskk> different results of what?
[13:40] <Laurenceb> speed
[13:40] <Randomskk> it should be mostly similar but I think the hdparm figures are a bit noisy
[13:40] <Randomskk> average of several runs is very different?
[13:41] <Laurenceb> yes
[13:41] <Laurenceb> sdd1 is roughtly double
[13:41] <Laurenceb> i cant spell
[13:41] <Randomskk> weird. could be caches messing it up
[13:41] <Laurenceb> its talking to an stm32 :P
[13:42] <Randomskk> I see
[13:42] <Randomskk> could be your code then :P
[13:42] <Laurenceb> maybe one is the device and one talks to the storage?
[13:45] <Randomskk> seems unlikely
[13:45] <Randomskk> /dev/sdd is the block device, the raw bit of data storage your stm32 is offering to the pc
[13:45] <Randomskk> then your PC can format it, writing a format table and etc
[13:46] <Randomskk> depends on how this is implemented on the stm32 really
[13:46] <Randomskk> maybe you fake the block storage and format
[13:46] <Laurenceb> its scsi emulation
[13:46] <Randomskk> shrug
[13:46] <Laurenceb> its all low level block access
[13:46] <Randomskk> then probably the two should be the same speed
[13:46] <Laurenceb> hmm odd
[13:46] <Laurenceb> i get about 780K and 1.4M
[13:47] <Randomskk> weird
[13:47] <Laurenceb> theoretically i get about 850K, but the card will block
[13:47] <Laurenceb> so 780 seems reasonable as its an old crappy card
[13:47] <Laurenceb> 1.4M is what youd get if you just bounced packets off it
[13:48] <Laurenceb> with the scsi you have packet and protocol overhead
[13:48] <Laurenceb> especially as its bulk transport
[13:48] <Laurenceb> /dev/sdd1: Timing buffered disk reads: 8 MB in 5.68 seconds = 1.41 MB/sec
[13:50] <Randomskk> try using something else like dd
[13:50] <Randomskk> just copy a big file. or the block device if it's pretending to be smallish
[13:50] <Laurenceb> ok
[13:50] <Randomskk> dd if=/dev/sdd of=/dev/null
[13:50] <Randomskk> dd if=/dev/sdd1 of=/dev/null
[13:50] <Randomskk> might wanna do this actually
[13:50] <Randomskk> dd if=/dev/sdd of=/dev/null bs=1M count=512
[13:50] <Laurenceb> but how will i benchmark that?
[13:50] <Randomskk> it gives you a data transfer rate at the end
[13:51] <Randomskk> or when you ^C
[13:51] <Laurenceb> aha
[13:51] <Randomskk> beware it'l get cached
[13:51] <Randomskk> so the second time you run it it'l probably be faster
[13:52] <Randomskk> and so on
[13:52] <Laurenceb> but first time is closest?
[13:53] <Laurenceb> what is the bs argument?
[13:53] <Randomskk> blocksize
[13:53] <oh7lzb> block size for read()
[13:54] <oh7lzb> and write
[13:54] <Randomskk> you could try
[13:54] <Randomskk> # sync && echo 1 > /proc/sys/vm/drop_caches
[13:54] <Randomskk> to clear disk cache
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[13:57] <Laurenceb> sudo echo 1 > /proc/sys/vm/drop_cachesbash: /proc/sys/vm/drop_caches: Permission denied
[13:57] <Laurenceb> huh
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[13:57] <Randomskk> sudo doesn't work like that
[13:58] <Randomskk> you ran 'echo 1' as root, then redirected to /proc as your normal user
[13:58] <Laurenceb> oh
[13:58] <Randomskk> there is a way around it, but tbh, just sudo -i
[13:59] <Randomskk> echo 1 | sudo tee /proc/sys/vm/drop_caches
[13:59] <Randomskk> maybe, idk
[14:01] <Laurenceb> sudo dd if=/dev/sdd1 of=/dev/null bs=1M count=512
[14:01] <Laurenceb> ^C42+0 records in
[14:01] <Laurenceb> 41+0 records out
[14:01] <Laurenceb> 42991616 bytes (43 MB) copied, 51.5246 s, 834 kB/s
[14:01] <Laurenceb> seems like what i was expecting
[14:03] <Laurenceb> on 64byte payload and lots of protocol and packet overhead with scsi emulation and bulk transport
[14:03] <Randomskk> yea that seems reasonable
[14:03] <Randomskk> heck I was getting only six times that writing to two hardware spinning disks recently
[14:03] <Laurenceb> i was hoping between 750 and 900
[14:03] <Randomskk> 6MB/s write speed is really painful
[14:03] <Randomskk> for a file server
[14:03] <Laurenceb> i should make an stm32 ftp server
[14:04] <Randomskk> totally
[14:04] <Randomskk> though pro tip, using its ethernet MAC is a /total/ pain
[14:04] <Randomskk> like a million wires to connect it to a phy and even once you've done that it's hard and annoying to write software for
[14:04] <Randomskk> so many wires
[14:04] <Laurenceb> heh
[14:04] <Laurenceb> i was looking at the chibios support
[14:05] <Laurenceb> annyoingly the chibios usb msc is only half done
[14:05] <Randomskk> stm32 on left, ethernet PHY on right: http://www.flickr.com/photos/randomskk/4869910804/
[14:05] <nick_> What are yo utalking about?
[14:05] <Laurenceb> work
[14:05] <Laurenceb> :P
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[14:05] <Randomskk> hobbies, while at work
[14:05] <Randomskk> >_>
[14:06] <nick_> Want to use a Cortex-m3 with ethernet?
[14:06] <Laurenceb> maybe
[14:06] <Randomskk> want to use an stm32 with ethernet. well, I did
[14:06] <Laurenceb> if i ever have time
[14:06] <Randomskk> don't want to use some other cortex m3 with a builtin phy :P
[14:06] <nick_> mbed.org
[14:06] <Randomskk> nor that
[14:06] <Randomskk> I mean, I have two mbeds
[14:06] <Randomskk> but the online IDE is imo rubbish, I'm not entirely convinced by their libraries for doing real work, the programming interface makes me sad, trying to debug it is a nightmare
[14:07] <nick_> I'm contemplating making a board from an mbed prototype I have now
[14:07] <Randomskk> and then trying to make your own board out of it requires either redoing all their stuff, or putting pin headers on and plugging in an mbed
[14:07] <Randomskk> not a fan
[14:07] Action: Laurenceb has been trying to make sd card work on stm32
[14:07] <Laurenceb> cmd17 is working ok now
[14:07] <Randomskk> I think these days if I was going to use an stm32 with ethernet I would use the microchip MAC+PHY that you talk to over SPI
[14:08] <Laurenceb> i tried cmd18 and it broke horribly
[14:08] <Laurenceb> card would just stop responding
[14:08] <Randomskk> I should try using the SD card on wombat...
[14:08] <Randomskk> in the end I wired it using the really, really reduced interface
[14:08] <Laurenceb> spi?
[14:08] <Randomskk> one bit? or maybe four? of SDIO rather than SPI
[14:08] <Laurenceb> oh
[14:08] <Randomskk> the lowest pin count option. also I was using spi elsewhere but wasn't using the sdio pins
[14:08] <Randomskk> and in theory the stm32 has an sdio peripheral
[14:08] <Laurenceb> yes
[14:08] <Randomskk> but yea I haven't gotten around to trying it because it's hard
[14:09] <Laurenceb> but this stuff is higher level
[14:09] <Laurenceb> commands are still the same
[14:09] <Randomskk> I see. I have no idea about the commands
[14:09] <Laurenceb> in theory, aquire card, cmd18, block, wait for card, block, etc, stop
[14:09] <Laurenceb> which usually worked for me
[14:09] <Randomskk> sounds annoying. what does cmd18 do?
[14:09] <Randomskk> I could do with some chocolate right about now.
[14:09] <Laurenceb> multiple read
[14:10] <Laurenceb> but sometimes i was getting block from the card forever
[14:10] <Randomskk> ah k
[14:10] <Randomskk> are you basically making a USB SD card reader?
[14:10] <Laurenceb> so im trying cmd17 now, which is single read
[14:10] <Laurenceb> in theory the wear leveller will take longer with cmd17
[14:10] <Laurenceb> but its the only way i could make it work reliably
[14:11] <Laurenceb> linux kernel has a limit on max number of blocks with cmd18
[14:11] <Laurenceb> i couldnt find anything like that in the spec
[14:11] <Laurenceb> so i tried to write code to impliment that and it failed with the same card response error
[14:11] <Laurenceb> it might just have been my code, but i can tbe bothered any more
[14:11] <Laurenceb> after 5 days on this
[14:12] <Randomskk> indeed
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[14:23] <Laurenceb> my code obviously isnt that screwed, and cmd17 worked straight off
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[15:17] <griffonbot> Received email: David Akerman "[UKHAS] Possible Launches on 14th/15th June from Brightwalton in Berkshire"
[15:18] <daveake> July dammit
[15:19] <griffonbot> Received email: David Akerman "Re: [UKHAS] Possible Launches on 14th/15th June from Brightwalton in Berkshire"
[15:19] Action: craag curses, beaten to the pi-in-the-sky.
[15:19] <nick_> daveake: is this the same place I tried to come to last time?
[15:19] <daveake> Yup
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[15:19] <daveake> Managed to get permission despite a lack of notice
[15:20] <daveake> craag: How is your getting on?
[15:20] <daveake> +s
[15:21] <craag> daveake: Been moving house so not too well recently, got gps on uart => string, rfm22b is connected to spi and responding, just need to port the spi code off the wiki.
[15:21] <craag> It would be my first payload though, so no images or other fancy stuff.
[15:22] <daveake> How are you ensuring the rfm22b timing stays correct?
[15:22] <craag> Erm, microsecond timing loops and some crossed fingers..
[15:22] <daveake> Ah, the SHARP method
[15:23] <daveake> I think they had to halt other processes during transmission
[15:23] <nick_> Can I tag along?
[15:23] <craag> Yeah.. should be a lot more accurate than SHARP's though.
[15:23] <daveake> Sure
[15:23] <nick_> When do you expect to have a go/no go decision based on weather?
[15:23] <daveake> craag Good :)
[15:23] <daveake> Saturday morning probably lol
[15:23] <daveake> Friday
[15:24] <craag> I have it transmitting the RTTY string on LEDs, but fldigi won't do webcam-input yet...
[15:24] <nick_> Any chance of a lift?
[15:24] <craag> Anyway, good luck with it, will be interesting to see the SSDV.
[15:25] <nick_> Is Upu local too?
[15:25] <daveake> Well I live 200m from the launch site, so I'm guessing you're not en route
[15:25] <nick_> Ah
[15:25] <daveake> Upu is oop north
[15:25] <daveake> Dunno what his travel plans are yet
[15:25] <daveake> Where are you?
[15:25] <nick_> I live in Kidlington
[15:26] <nick_> eroomde still kinda owes me a lift
[15:26] <daveake> Yeah, he couldn't get in touch I think
[15:26] <daveake> His clock broke
[15:26] <nick_> UpuWork's coming down?
[15:27] <daveake> Yes
[15:27] <nick_> Cool
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[15:27] <nick_> Maybe I can get a super quick delivery on a GPS module then...
[15:27] <daveake> But we only got this sorted half an hour ago so we've not spoken about when he's coming down
[15:28] <daveake> GPS module?
[15:29] <nick_> Upu's the one that sells the GPS modules, no?
[15:29] <daveake> OIC
[15:29] <daveake> Yes
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[15:39] <UpuWork> hey Nick
[15:40] <nick_> hi
[15:41] <nick_> You're coming down to sunny Oxford?
[15:41] <UpuWork> I am
[15:41] <UpuWork> well
[15:41] <UpuWork> possibly
[15:41] <nick_> How are you travelling?
[15:41] <UpuWork> car
[15:41] <nick_> Basically I'd like to tag along, observe, learn and help in any way I can
[15:42] <nick_> Although I don't have my own transport that can get me there.
[15:42] <nick_> (and I also need to check with my fiancée that I don't already have plans)
[15:42] <daveake> Man up :p
[15:43] <UpuWork> lol
[15:43] <UpuWork> Where are you in relation to brightwalton ?
[15:44] <nick_> I live just North of Oxford
[15:47] <nick_> Although I can get to most parts of Oxford by public transport if needed.
[15:48] <nick_> (like the park and rides around the ring road)
[15:48] <UpuWork> I'll come back to you nick_ I'm sure I can sort something out just a little snowed under atm
[15:49] <nick_> Cool
[15:49] <nick_> I might be able to get a lift from eroomde if I could convince him to go too.
[15:49] <nick_> If we manage to link up could I buy a module from you too?
[15:50] <UpuWork> of course
[15:50] <UpuWork> I'll come back to you tonight
[15:51] <nick_> :)
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[15:55] <navrac_> weather permitting ozzie3 will be going up on the 14th/15th - its currently set to 434.2 but can change it
[15:57] <mattbrejza> btw any reason to have the radio transmitting a single carrier between packets, fldigi doesnt afc on a single carrier?
[16:00] <griffonbot> Received email: David Akerman "Re: [UKHAS] Possible Launches on 14th/15th June from Brightwalton in Berkshire"
[16:00] <daveake> No. I just transmit continously (well there's a very short delay while the next sentence is sprintf'd)
[16:01] <Laurenceb> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/07/11/rehab_result/
[16:01] <Laurenceb> omg
[16:01] <Laurenceb> whod have thunk it
[16:02] <mattbrejza> this is a pico so it transmits a few positions then goes for a nap for 30sec or so
[16:02] <mattbrejza> so i want all the power savings i can get
[16:03] <daveake> In that case switch it off
[16:03] <Laurenceb> the special project bureau is quite special
[16:04] <daveake> I think it's best to have a bit of preamble before the real data. Not sure what's best to send though - "$" maybe, or 0x55.
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[16:04] <mattbrejza> yea in the 30secs i also turn it on for 2sec or so and send 'UUU' to get the AGC going
[16:05] <mattbrejza> and as a 'im here and have lock' indicator
[16:06] <mattbrejza> i think 0x55 55 55 55 00 00 is the best preamble as theres plently of transistions to get the agc working, and then 0x00 helps fldigi get the start of each byte in the correct place
[16:08] <fsphil> to be honest, fldigi will sync fine on a few 0x00's
[16:08] <fsphil> it's a very simple demodulator
[16:09] <mattbrejza> i would have thought the afc would work better on 0x55?
[16:11] <fsphil> doesn't seem to
[16:14] <mattbrejza> fair enough, not that it makes much difference either way
[16:14] <fsphil> it may be better when the signal is a bit weaker
[16:20] <daveake> I had a play a while back using different characters ... 55, AA, null, $ ... can't say I could see any difference
[16:20] <navrac_> nor me - so i settled for PREAMBLE
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[16:40] <Randomskk> so the thing is
[16:41] <Randomskk> with another decoder you should see a difference
[16:41] <Randomskk> but dl-fldigi doesn't really do anything clever
[16:42] <Randomskk> Laurenceb: jeez that's a tiny pressure chamber and tiny rockets
[16:42] <Randomskk> suck
[16:43] <Laurenceb> "special" projects bureau
[16:43] <eroomde> nick_: convince me about what?
[16:43] <nick_> being my taxi driver
[16:43] <eroomde> for what?
[16:43] <nick_> :)
[16:44] <Randomskk> but really why did they not just put a burst plug in
[16:44] <nick_> dave and upu are launching something this weekend
[16:45] <eroomde> afriad i'm in cam this weekend
[16:45] <eroomde> Laurenceb: that register article is depressing
[16:46] <nick_> OK
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[17:08] <nick_> http://www.designspark.com/content/watching-planes-software-defined-radio
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[17:09] <nick_> The g+ post claimed this was running on a rpi
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[17:10] <russss> I actually bought the USRP to do ADS-B reception
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[17:10] <russss> I got it kind of working and then gave up because I couldn't make it sensitive enough
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[17:53] <fsphil> pluto might not be a planet anymore, but it's making up for it in the number of moons (a fifth one just discovered)
[17:56] <joelio> Hi, does anyone have good information on the legalities of HA stuff in the UK
[17:56] Action: joelio completely new to this
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[18:02] <daveake_> I'm eating, so can I just point you to http://www.ukhas.org.uk/general:restrictions_legality till I'm back? :)
[18:02] <joelio> daveake_: Great stuff! Enjoy your tea
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[18:05] <fsphil> don't type with your mouth full daveake_
[18:06] Action: fsphil says while eating a chocolate digestive near the laptop
[18:06] <daveake_> goykd advish
[18:06] Nick change: daveake_ -> daveake
[18:06] <joelio> Ahh, the CAA. The organisation I work for had to cancel their maden voyage of a UAV today as they had more questions about it. Shame as it'd have captured video for the torch relay
[18:06] <daveake> mmmLasagne
[18:07] <fsphil> I assume you've talked to DM then
[18:07] <fsphil> he's the one who deals with balloon launches at the CAA
[18:07] <daveake> Yeah, balloon applications are less problematic
[18:07] <joelio> no, I don't work in that section
[18:07] Action: fsphil checks his email
[18:07] <daveake> Unless your name is Phil
[18:07] <fsphil> no mail :(
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[18:08] <daveake> He leaves them till the Friday, IME
[18:08] <fsphil> to be fair I did use a new launch location for this one, that might add extra work
[18:08] <daveake> Mine only went in on the 4th
[18:08] <joelio> Some of the flights I've 'researched' (read: watched videos of) seem to go to a lot wider than 2m. This generally an issue?
[18:08] <daveake> No
[18:08] <fsphil> not with permission to launch no
[18:09] <daveake> 2m is the limit for not having to get permission
[18:09] <joelio> right, sure
[18:09] <fsphil> it's actually really hard to launch and stay <2m
[18:09] <joelio> I can imagine!
[18:09] <fsphil> impossible with a latex as they expand as the pressure drops
[18:09] <daveake> "pico" flights generally use 1 or 2 foil balloons of ~36" diameter and those don't need permission
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[18:09] <daveake> However they only get to about 6km altitude
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[18:10] <fsphil> if done right they can cover huge distances though
[18:10] <joelio> I might start small tbh - new to this
[18:10] <joelio> *very* interested though!
[18:10] <fsphil> I'd suggest a regular balloon for your first one
[18:10] <joelio> regular being?
[18:10] <daveake> Latex
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[18:11] <joelio> ok, well I think I'd best do some reading of your wiki
[18:11] <joelio> thanks!
[18:12] <daveake> Hang around here too
[18:12] <daveake> Conversations go on at all levels ....
[18:12] <joelio> will do, I idle on IRC a lot
[18:12] <joelio> linux systems engineer by trade, so it's in the blood :)
[18:12] <joelio> looking forward to learning some cool stuff!
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[18:13] <daveake> Any electronics experience at all?
[18:13] <joelio> Yes, some.. played with Arduino's and the like
[18:14] <daveake> You'll find it all very easy then :D
[18:14] <joelio> I work in a research department so I'm completely imersed in it
[18:14] <nick_> What research?
[18:14] <joelio> tv stuffsw
[18:14] <daveake> Also, whereabouts are you?
[18:15] <joelio> Manchester, UK
[18:15] <daveake> OK, not many launches up there, but if there is one you'll probably be welcome to go along and see how things work
[18:15] <joelio> sure thing, I'll keep my ear to the ground et al.
[18:16] <joelio> or should that be eyes to the sky?
[18:17] <fsphil> yagis to the up
[18:17] <fsphil> er
[18:17] <fsphil> n/m
[18:19] <joelio> Ooh, SDR's - my colleagues been playing with those this week too
[18:19] <joelio> amazing
[18:20] <fsphil> they are that
[18:20] <fsphil> there's possibly a launch this weekend, gonna be trying to receive them with one
[18:21] <joelio> there's a pile of them near my desk too.. I'll be asking the owner of said stock for one tomorrow, for sure
[18:22] <joelio> will have to check if compatible, but for £20 it's hardly expensive is it.. quality
[18:24] <fsphil> some of the newer ones are missing an ESD protection diode, so be wary of connecting them to a large antenna
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[18:26] <joelio> ok, will do.
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[18:36] <gonzo_mob> should be ok if the antanna is dc coupled to ground
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[18:36] <gonzo_mob> though still a risk that the center pin mates first as you connect it
[18:37] <joelio> do people ever use directionals and triangualation for tracking? linking reception nodes over 3g or something?
[18:38] <jonsowman> only if things go very badly wrong ;)
[18:38] <fsphil> the data each station receives gets uploaded to the live tracker at http://spacenear.us/tracker/
[18:38] <fsphil> and yea, if you're doing directional then something bad's happened :)
[18:38] <joelio> wow, that's some distance!
[18:39] <fsphil> oh xaben, ignore that first point in england :)
[18:39] <fsphil> it was actually launched in wales
[18:39] <joelio> looked a little straight :)
[18:40] <fsphil> although other balloons have covered that distance and more
[18:40] <daveake> And some, due to a GPS parsing or formatting bug, have apparently done it :p
[18:40] <jonsowman> there's a particularly favourite spot just off the west african coast
[18:41] <fsphil> hehe, and some travel huge distances unintentionally :)
[18:41] <daveake> :)
[18:41] <joelio> "fill 'er up, we're in for a drive"
[18:41] <fsphil> the best distance so far is california to spain
[18:41] <daveake> My furthest went from Berks to Belgium
[18:41] <joelio> wow
[18:42] <daveake> But some have gone much further
[18:42] <fsphil> not sure what the best uk distance is
[18:42] <fsphil> apex alpha maybe, http://ukhas.org.uk/general:uk_records
[18:42] <fsphil> although I'm sure something else went further
[18:43] <fsphil> jcoxon's pico should be pretty high up on that list
[18:46] <joelio> right, I need to food myself. Thanks for the info guys, much appreciated
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[18:56] Nick change: Elwell_ -> Elwell
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[19:35] <mattbrejza> http://hackaday.com/2012/07/11/two-stage-rocket-climbs-to-15-km-promptly-gets-lost/
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[19:56] <fsphil> nice
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[20:59] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[21:18] <nigelvh> Howdy
[21:18] <Lunar_Lander> hi nigelvh
[21:18] <nigelvh> How's things?
[21:19] <Lunar_Lander> ah got the cold and my cell phone does not start for some reason
[21:19] <Lunar_Lander> even when connected to the wall wart
[21:20] <nigelvh> That's not generally a good sign.
[21:21] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[21:22] <nigelvh> Making progress with your payload?
[21:23] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[21:23] <Lunar_Lander> one moment please
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[21:30] <Lunar_Lander> nigelvh, today we made a schematic (like EAGLE on Paper) and marked the areas on the stripboard where the devices can go and already made a socket and the resistors for the NTX2
[21:30] <nigelvh> Good deal
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[21:36] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[21:36] <Lunar_Lander> and I tried the voltage divider thing for reading the battery voltage
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[21:45] <nigelvh> Yeah?
[21:45] <nigelvh> I assumed it worked alright?
[21:46] <Lunar_Lander> yes, I used a 3.9k and 3.3k resistor and fed the 3 batteries to that
[21:46] <Lunar_Lander> on the arduino I wrote a simple program to read the analogue pin connected to the divider
[21:47] <Lunar_Lander> and I got about 700 as a value
[21:47] <Lunar_Lander> if I calculated correctly that translates to 4.1V input voltage
[21:47] <Lunar_Lander> which seems about correct according to the multimeter
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[22:09] <Lunar_Lander> nigelvh, what do you think about that?
[22:14] <daveake> There's not much to think about. Calculate the resistors --> make it --> measure with A/D and DMM --> calculate multiplier --> code V = ADC * multiplier --> sit back and relax
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[22:15] <nigelvh> Pretty much
[22:16] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:16] <daveake> If the values are noisy , and you care, then stick a capacitor on the A/D input and/or average a few readings
[22:16] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:17] <Lunar_Lander> ah what exactly do you mean with the multiplier?
[22:17] <nigelvh> Generally since I use my systems at 5V, I just use two 5.1k resistors, and the 10 bit adc (1024 divisions) into 5v gives 0.0049V/division. So I do batt_voltage = ((num_divisions*0.0049)*2);
[22:17] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[22:17] <daveake> It's simple stuff; just do it then get on to something else
[22:17] <Lunar_Lander> that is what I meant
[22:17] <daveake> If 700 is 4.1V then the mulltiplier is 4.1/700
[22:17] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[22:18] <daveake> eeeeeasy
[22:18] <Lunar_Lander> I selected the resistors based on 6V
[22:18] <Lunar_Lander> as you said that I should give it some headroom
[22:19] <daveake> Yes we covered that side yesterday
[22:19] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[22:19] <daveake> Now it's made it's the calibration
[22:19] <Lunar_Lander> so I calculated with 6 V and 3.3V
[22:19] <daveake> Also you might want to connect to a PSU and see how much headroom you actually have
[22:19] <Lunar_Lander> but if I used the 2.56V reference maybe, then I have to recalculated
[22:19] <Lunar_Lander> -d
[22:19] <daveake> yes of course
[22:19] <Lunar_Lander> to something like my regulator?
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[22:20] <daveake> Whatever you are measuring
[22:21] <nigelvh> It just depends on what the reference is. Take your reference voltage and divide by 1024 (the number of steps), then the number you get from analogread multiplied by that multiplier is the voltage it's reading.
[22:21] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:21] <daveake> Well you can calculate it
[22:21] <daveake> if 700 is 4.1V, and it's a 10-bit ADC, then max is 1023 * 4.1 / 700
[22:21] <daveake> Which sounds like about 6V to me
[22:22] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:22] <Lunar_Lander> so my theoretical calc worked
[22:22] <Lunar_Lander> yeah it is 5.997
[22:22] <daveake> 5.99
[22:22] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:22] <daveake> Depends how accurate that 4.1 was
[22:23] <nigelvh> Yeah. The reason you measure is that the resistors are never EXACTLY what the values are.
[22:23] <daveake> Sounds like it's "spot on" to me
[22:23] <Lunar_Lander> yeah of course
[22:23] <Lunar_Lander> these are the 5% tolerance ones
[22:23] <daveake> Considering the resistors are probably +/- 5%
[22:23] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:23] <SpeedEvil> And two get you 10% if you're unlucky
[22:23] <daveake> Which is why I said calculate --> make --> calibrate
[22:23] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:24] <Lunar_Lander> I connected it to the lithium pack which gives 7 V on the DMM
[22:24] <Lunar_Lander> that gave 1023
[22:24] <daveake> I use the same values when I make a tracker, then I measure to see if I need to adjust the multiplier
[22:24] <Lunar_Lander> cause it is off range of course
[22:24] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:24] <daveake> YES
[22:24] <daveake> We have a connection :)
[22:24] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[22:24] <daveake> Hope it all makes sense now :D
[22:24] <nigelvh> Be careful doing so. Over-volting the inputs can damage them.
[22:24] <Lunar_Lander> xD yeah
[22:24] <daveake> Yep
[22:24] <Lunar_Lander> yeah, I did it only very momentarily
[22:25] <nigelvh> very momentarily is eons in electricity's world
[22:25] <Lunar_Lander> OHHHHHHH
[22:25] <daveake> Well ... when things die from too much power, it can take a while for that to happen asbits heat up and melt
[22:25] <daveake> When you go too high in voltage, they die immediately
[22:25] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:26] <daveake> So take care
[22:26] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[22:26] <Lunar_Lander> and we found out that diode mode of the DMM is really helpful
[22:26] <daveake> Som regulators for 3.3V have a max input of 6 or 7V, which is silly low
[22:26] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:26] <Lunar_Lander> the arduino takes up to 12 V
[22:26] <Lunar_Lander> at least they printed that on the power jack footprint
[22:26] <daveake> Better regulator
[22:27] <daveake> But for regulators, you have 3 limits
[22:27] <daveake> Max volts in --> too high = dead
[22:27] <daveake> Max current --> too high = it shuts down or limits the currnent
[22:27] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[22:28] <daveake> Max power --> gets hot --> depends
[22:28] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[22:28] <SpeedEvil> daveake: 5.5 for the one on the Pi
[22:28] <Lunar_Lander> my regulator on the first board got hot when it was short circuited
[22:28] <nigelvh> Things tend to do that when they're shorted.
[22:28] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:29] <Lunar_Lander> today I worked with Richard and Miriam in the lab and she asked how fast it got hot
[22:29] <daveake> The first thing it will do is limit the current, say to 1A. Then you've got 5W or so in a small device. Then it gets hot
[22:29] <Lunar_Lander> and I said that it was like burning hot to the touch right away
[22:29] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[22:29] <daveake> Rule of thumb = if you can't hold your thumb on it, it's too hot
[22:30] <daveake> Max power can be complex to calculate, as it depends on the ambient temperature, board mounting (how much copper it's soldered on to), package style, any heatsink added, air movement ...
[22:31] <nigelvh> The phase of the moon...
[22:31] <daveake> Murphy's Law: You announce a flight using a new tracker, then your tracker dies.
[22:31] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[22:31] <daveake> Pi wouldn't boot
[22:31] <daveake> Fortunately just the SD card is kaput
[22:32] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:32] <daveake> Glad it happened now not on Saturday
[22:32] <daveake> I've restored the SD from a backup (I'm kinda amazed that I actually made one)
[22:33] <nigelvh> Good job! (says the IT guy)
[22:33] <daveake> :)
[22:33] <daveake> Since then the software got changed but I do have copies of that too, ftp'd onto my Windows PC
[22:33] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[22:33] <Lunar_Lander> ohh GLaDOS
[22:34] <nigelvh> R
[22:34] <daveake> So I need to copy that back, then set up the /etc/init.d stuff that I did after
[22:34] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:34] <nigelvh> "Remember when you tried to kill me twice. Oh how we laughed and laughed. Except I wasn't laughing."
[22:34] <daveake> Then I'll make another backup, and I'll create a duplicate SD card in case it happens at the launch site :D
[22:34] <nigelvh> Why'd the SD card get messed up?
[22:35] <daveake> Well the only thing that happened between it working and not working was that I made the payload box and put the card in
[22:35] <daveake> (card = pi)
[22:35] <daveake> the SD card sticks out the end so maybe I bent it
[22:35] <daveake> Either that or static
[22:35] <nigelvh> Oh so it physically broke
[22:35] <daveake> or it just died
[22:35] <daveake> Well it's possible
[22:36] <daveake> But I don't remember bending it
[22:36] <nigelvh> It sounded kind like it just got corrupted.
[22:36] <Lunar_Lander> nigelvh, yeah
[22:36] <daveake> I put it in a Windows PC and that saw the card but no partitions and no capacity
[22:36] <nigelvh> Yeah, that sounds kinda broke
[22:36] <daveake> So it's there, but not there. So it's not so much corrupted as buggered
[22:37] <nigelvh> New SD card then.
[22:37] <daveake> RS should swap it for me :)
[22:37] <daveake> Yeah, I have a few spares
[22:37] <daveake> It's a 4GB card, and the image is for the entire card, so I tried to restore to a spare 4GB card
[22:37] <daveake> But it was slightly smaller than the original 4GB so the image copier refused to copy
[22:37] <daveake> I hate that
[22:37] <nigelvh> Image restores can be rather problematic for exactly that reason.
[22:38] <daveake> Yep
[22:38] <daveake> had the same thing on hard drives
[22:38] <nigelvh> Oh, two bytes difference, too bad.
[22:38] <daveake> The original Debian image is formatted to use 2GB total
[22:38] <Lunar_Lander> daveake, did you play Portal?
[22:38] <daveake> No
[22:38] <Lunar_Lander> it's awesome
[22:39] <daveake> I used fdisk etc to extend the main partition.
[22:39] <daveake> Otherwise you only have 300MB or so free!
[22:39] <nigelvh> Only 300MB? What ever shall you do?!
[22:39] <daveake> lol
[22:39] <daveake> Well "storing a 3MB image every 5 seconds" isn't one of them :p
[22:40] <nigelvh> I've got some old Soekris engineering boxes that ran linux on 64MB flash cards. Granted it wasn't debian.
[22:40] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[22:40] <daveake> for this flight though I'm not going to - Upu will have a GoPro on the same balloon so no need
[22:40] <daveake> So I'm keeping it simple - just the SSDV and telemetry
[22:40] <nigelvh> Yes... simple....
[22:40] <daveake> :D
[22:41] <daveake> Yeah the irony came over me as I typed that ...
[22:41] <nigelvh> I should hope so.
[22:42] <nigelvh> One of these days when the Pi's are readily available I'll pick one up to play with, but for now "Registering my interest" just seems like so much work...
[22:42] <nigelvh> "You mean I have to visit your website twice?!"
[22:44] <daveake> What I meant (before my netbook powered down due to lack of charge) was that having made the tracker complex enough, and got it working, I don't want upset the apple cart :)
[22:45] <nigelvh> Yes
[22:45] <daveake> I ordered a pi on RS and another from Farnell, so I have 2. I really thought I was going to have to use the spare.
[22:45] <daveake> Slight pain as I've had to modify it a bit
[22:46] <nigelvh> Happens to the best of 'em.
[22:47] <nigelvh> BTW, what are you using to capture images? A usb webcam or a uart camera?
[22:47] <daveake> USB webcam
[22:48] <daveake> That was one of the reasons for trying the pi - easy access to webcam images
[22:48] <daveake> The other reason was "because" :)
[22:48] <nigelvh> Figured that would probably be the easiest. At least until the come out with the camera specifically for it.
[22:48] <daveake> It's quite easy with the webcam. Once you've patched the kernel and shorted out the USB fuse that is :p
[22:49] <nigelvh> webcam too much for the usb fuse? That's odd.
[22:49] <daveake> Webcam = 50mA idle 200+mA peaks
[22:49] <daveake> 250mA I think
[22:49] <daveake> Fuse = 140mA max
[22:49] <nigelvh> That's stupid
[22:50] <nigelvh> USB = 500mA
[22:50] <daveake> And at that point it ain't delivering 5V
[22:50] <nigelvh> And you can get more if it's an apple device
[22:50] <daveake> Yes, I know. It's so they can use a smaller PSU.
[22:50] <Lunar_Lander> btw
[22:50] <nigelvh> Makes sense. Just seems silly
[22:51] <daveake> It is
[22:51] <nigelvh> Also, it's home time now. So I'll chat with you all later.
[22:51] <daveake> Apparently some meece and keyboards won't work because of this
[22:51] <daveake> ok bb
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[22:51] <Lunar_Lander> this is the best bicycle xD: http://s.gullipics.com/image/m/y/p/5yvr4d-j9h5v8-r4dj/IMG0214.jpeg
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[00:00] --- Thu Jul 12 2012