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[08:04] <griffonbot> Received email: Anthony Stirk "[UKHAS] SDR Front End Filter + a warning about the Dongle"
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[09:03] <kokey> the filters seem interesting, any more details?
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[09:04] <kokey> ah, there are older posts about it
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[09:11] <UpuWork> yeah older posts :)
[09:18] <kokey> without a filter, the rtl-sdr doesn't work well for stuff that's not nearby
[09:19] <fsphil> depends on your circumstance
[09:19] <fsphil> if you live far from strong transmitters, it'll work fine
[09:20] <kokey> living in Watford doesn't seem to be far from anything in the right way
[09:21] <fsphil> we've a few annoying transmitters in or near Cookstown, although it causes the funcube dongle more problems than the rtl-sdr
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[09:22] <fsphil> which I suspect is because of the preamp in the funcube dongle
[09:22] <fsphil> the rtl-sdr has none
[09:23] <kokey> I'll play with mine some more at some point, it wasn't the most ideal setup under vmware on a mac
[09:23] <navrac> Sorry - just joined - is there a problem with the preamp used with a fcd? ~I was going to use it for that as well as the sdr
[09:24] <kokey> I couldn't even get a clear signal on radio 1
[09:24] <kokey> I'm probably going to rebuild everything including gnuradio on native osx
[09:25] <fsphil> navrac: nah, just saying the fcd has more issues with local transmitters than the rtl-sdr does
[09:25] <fsphil> I think it's because the fcd has a built in preamp
[09:25] <navrac> ah - ok
[09:25] <kokey> I might get a bit of a performance increase that way, I think my vm setup was making the system swap from time to time
[09:25] <fsphil> around the 70cm band I get a lot of noise from tetra, which is on 399mhz
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[09:26] <daveake> The FCD is quite sensitive - slightly better I think than my 817 (I was comparing them on that last pico flight). The ezcap was much less sensitive.
[09:26] <navrac> i was going to mount the preamp when it comes at the top of the mast and then just swap over the dongles to suit. - If I can get the software to work on the chinese thing
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[09:27] <jcoxon> navrac, shame about ozzie 3 launch
[09:27] <fsphil> I'd like a preamp on the mast too
[09:27] <fsphil> although one that allows tx'ing would be better
[09:28] <gonzo_> you can use RF sense in the preamp to switch it out when txing
[09:29] <gonzo_> or some radios can output a voltage on the coax on rx, that will power the preamp and switch it inline when needed. (Icon's do this I recall)
[09:29] <gonzo_> icoms
[09:30] <gonzo_> it's easy to add a little inline box at the shack end to do this if required too
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[09:42] <navrac_work> still trying to get my ezcap to work with hdsdr - or anything in fact. It seems to tune but theres no soundcard to select in hdsdr
[09:44] <navrac_work> ah looks like it auto select usrp as the input - so the dongles probably dead
[09:47] <fsphil> I wasn't able to get that working either
[09:49] <navrac_work> well since sdrsharp doesnt run on my pc I'm a bit stuck for software to try
[09:49] <nick_> navrac_work: this is one of the cheap usb TV receiver dongles?
[09:49] <navrac_work> yep
[09:50] <navrac_work> a dealextreme special
[09:50] <fsphil> I've only ever got them working in linux
[09:50] <nick_> Did you hear abot the ESD problem?
[09:51] <nick_> How much do these things cost?
[09:51] <fsphil> the dongles? about £17 including p+p
[09:52] <nick_> And what else do you need to get tracking?
[09:52] <nick_> I've been wanting to track stuff but I don't want to buy an expensive radio right now.
[09:52] <navrac_work> aerial, and probably a preamp
[09:52] <fsphil> in theory you could use it standalone with just a cheap 70cm vertical
[09:53] <fsphil> but it isn't very sensitive, so the preamp will help a lot
[09:55] <fsphil> all in it's still a lot cheaper than a real radio
[09:55] <nick_> How much is a pre-amp?
[09:56] <fsphil> no price yet, estimated £25
[09:56] <nick_> These are something someone here is making?
[09:56] <fsphil> yea, Darkside designed and UpuWork building
[09:56] <daveake> eys
[09:57] <daveake> whs
[09:57] <BrainDamage> compatible LNA with ~1dB NF and 15dB gain: http://www.g4ddk.com/SPFAMP.pdf
[09:57] <nick_> I think I could be quite helpful if I got a tracking station put on top of our physics building, we're pretty tall
[09:57] <BrainDamage> cost: 11£ + shipping
[09:58] <fsphil> this also has a 70cm band pass filter BrainDamage
[09:58] <UpuWork> BrainDamage Darkside's design also has a SAW filter on it
[09:58] <nick_> Although probably eroomde has a setup nearby that is better
[09:58] <fsphil> the more the merrier nick_
[09:58] <nick_> Yeah, that's what I think.
[09:59] <nick_> Also setting up a tracker would be fun
[09:59] <nick_> Especially if decent pointing is required.
[09:59] <fsphil> I do enjoy tracking, even though my distance makes the data fairly redundant
[10:00] <nick_> I've been meaning to work on something where I control movement for a while.
[10:01] <daveake> It's always good to have more trackers - not everyone is always available; sometimes there are 3 or 4 payloads to track at once; sometimes people run higher baud rates for SSDV for example and more trackers means fewer lost packets
[10:01] <fsphil> effects of local qrm can also be reduced by having more stations
[10:02] <nick_> So to get up and running I need one of these dongles, an antenna and maybe an amp?
[10:02] <nick_> Do you just buy an antenna?
[10:02] <daveake> Plus of course you may actually be close to the launch site or landing spot, so you may end up with a vital packet
[10:02] <fsphil> I would highly suggest getting the preamp
[10:02] <daveake> You can make them too
[10:02] <daveake> (antenna)
[10:02] <daveake> I bought a Watson collinear on ebay, and have a couple of yagis
[10:03] <fsphil> the watsons are good antennas
[10:03] <nick_> How much do they cost?
[10:03] <daveake> Upu's vast collection includes a home-brew but not tried yet on a flight
[10:03] <daveake> £50 or so
[10:03] <UpuWork> £50
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[10:03] <UpuWork> worth every penny
[10:03] <UpuWork> though
[10:03] <fsphil> the Diamond equivilent of the watson has a high pass filter
[10:03] <fsphil> no idea if that helps
[10:04] <nick_> So dongle + amp + antenna ~ £100?
[10:04] <daveake> yep
[10:04] <fsphil> still saving quite a bit of an ft817 :)
[10:04] <daveake> indeed!
[10:04] <nick_> Then I just need to add the cost of a few beers for eroomde to debug my setup...
[10:04] Action: daveake strokes ft817
[10:04] <UpuWork> nick_ http://imgur.com/a/1bqjM#0
[10:04] <fsphil> although I wouldn't exchange my 817 :)
[10:04] <UpuWork> £3 antenna
[10:04] <UpuWork> *if you have 20 meters of coax lying about
[10:05] <UpuWork> not tested it yet though
[10:05] <nick_> I bet there's some coax in the lab somewhere...
[10:05] <daveake> Beware that 20 metres of RG58 will lose you lots of db's
[10:06] <daveake> So pre-amp at the mast, or use something better
[10:06] <nick_> Is there a shopping list on the wiki for where you can buy these bits?
[10:06] Action: daveake has more than half a reel of "something better" sat around (hint hint)
[10:06] <UpuWork> which bits nick_ ?
[10:06] <nick_> dongle, amp, antennna
[10:07] <UpuWork> dongle try dealextreme
[10:07] <daveake> Aerials: http://www.moonraker.eu/ http://www.radioworld.co.uk/catalog/
[10:07] <UpuWork> amp not currently for sale
[10:08] <UpuWork> http://www.radioworld.co.uk/catalog/w-50_watson_2m_70cm_base_station_vertical_antenna-p-1947.html?osCsid=a7dba3c146ac7d6219fe6d5239b9d18b
[10:08] <UpuWork> thats the Watson
[10:08] <navrac_work> upu - turns out my dongle hasnt got the esd either
[10:08] <UpuWork> I'll post you some diodes navrac
[10:09] <UpuWork> nick_ I'll document the antenna on the wiki when I prove it works
[10:09] <navrac_work> wait till you've got the preamp finished - ill probably noty use the dongle till then
[10:09] <UpuWork> well they are almost done just need testing really
[10:09] <nick_> UpuWork: the one you made?
[10:09] <navrac_work> fsphil - do you track radiosondes?
[10:10] <fsphil> occasionally navrac_work
[10:10] <UpuWork> yep
[10:10] <nick_> It would also be helpful to have a link to the right kind of antenna on one of the normal shops sites
[10:10] <UpuWork> nick_ http://www.radioworld.co.uk/catalog/w-50_watson_2m_70cm_base_station_vertical_antenna-p-1947.html?osCsid=a7dba3c146ac7d6219fe6d5239b9d18b
[10:10] <navrac_work> what do you use for software?
[10:11] <nick_> Like I Thanks
[10:11] <nick_> I mean
[10:11] <nick_> Thanks
[10:11] <fsphil> navrac_work: sondemonitor
[10:11] <UpuWork> personally I use Yaesu FT817 + dl-fldigi
[10:11] <nick_> Now I need to go have my hairs cut
[10:11] <UpuWork> oh you mean for Sonde's ?
[10:11] Action: UpuWork shuts up
[10:11] <fsphil> woohoo, someone in the offices birthday. chocolate ckae
[10:11] <fsphil> cake*
[10:12] <SpeedEvil> :)
[10:12] <gonzo_> we had a load here last week. None for months then 3three in one day
[10:13] <navrac_work> tried that briefly on friday - looked a good signal on the hdsdr - but couldnt get the sondemonitor to decode anything - I selected sgp - would that be right?
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[10:15] <SpeedEvil> http://www.dealextreme.com/p/hw-t18-ultra-rugged-waterproof-android-2-3-wcdma-cellphone-w-3-5-capacitive-gps-and-wi-fi-orange-136834 - interesting
[10:16] <fsphil> navrac_work: it's the rg one I think
[10:16] <fsphil> the first one on the list
[10:16] <fsphil> I don't have the program handy
[10:17] <fsphil> sgp
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[10:17] <navrac_work> the first one is sgp on mine - I looked up whats used in the uk and that one seemed to match. How big is your waveform on the raw ausio signal display?
[10:17] <fsphil> did you click on start?
[10:18] <navrac_work> yes
[10:18] <fsphil> yea, SGP
[10:18] <fsphil> the waveform is fairly quiet
[10:18] <fsphil> I've played with the volume a bit, doesn't seem to matter much
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[10:18] <fsphil> the fm bandwidth was just enough to cover the two carriers on either side of the signal
[10:18] <navrac_work> on raw audio the centre line seems to be about 3/4 of the way up the screen and about peak to peak about 3-4 x the height of the header bar
[10:19] <navrac_work> ok I'll try narrowing down the output
[10:19] <fsphil> I'm using the fcd as a receiver
[10:20] <fsphil> keeping it offset from the middle to avoid the tetra noise
[10:21] <navrac_work> i think ive got one on 404.364
[10:21] <fsphil> right now?
[10:21] <navrac_work> yep
[10:22] <fsphil> it's early
[10:22] <navrac_work> just appeared about 2 mins ago
[10:22] <fsphil> they normally launch at 1115 UTC (1215 BST)
[10:23] <navrac_work> on the waterfall its one wide peak in the centre - a very thing peak either side then a rounded peak either side of them
[10:23] <fsphil> can you take a screenshot?
[10:24] <navrac_work> ok 2 secs, got to remember where to paste it!
[10:26] <navrac_work> oh bggr - its a new machine and i havent got round to installing any graphics software yet!
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[10:34] <navrac_work> fsphil: http://imagebin.org/220054
[10:34] <navrac_work> now you're going to tell me it isnt a radiosonde!
[10:34] <UpuWork> Windows 7 ?
[10:34] <SpeedEvil> 'That's no radiosonde!'
[10:35] <navrac_work> yep
[10:35] <UpuWork> you know if its right as it looks like batmans head on the SDR
[10:35] <UpuWork> run as administrator
[10:35] <UpuWork> doesn't decode if you don't
[10:35] <navrac_work> oh really - that is somewhat useful to know!
[10:36] <fsphil> navrac_work: a screenshot of it from the sdr software
[10:36] <fsphil> but try UpuWork's suggestion first
[10:36] <fsphil> I forgot about that
[10:36] <navrac_work> the screenshot is showing both - just scroll right
[10:36] <fsphil> ah
[10:36] Action: fsphil fails
[10:37] <fsphil> yea that's not a sonde
[10:38] <navrac_work> thought it was a bit higer frequency than the ones on friday - and didnt drift at all. I'll wait till 12:15 then
[10:39] <navrac_work> the ones on friday were drifting fading rotating etc like a proper tx
[10:39] <fsphil> http://i.ytimg.com/vi/zlREKPPrc80/0.jpg
[10:39] <fsphil> should look like that... a fuzzy bit with two carriers on either side
[10:39] <navrac_work> thanks I know what to look for now -
[10:39] <fsphil> or batman's outline if the waterfall is setup right :)
[10:40] <navrac_work> they launch from cambourne which isnt far away so i should get a reasonable signal
[10:40] Action: UpuWork points batmans head
[10:41] <MrScienceMan> qww/fq 13
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[10:56] <navrac_work> ah decoding one!
[10:56] <fsphil> nice!
[10:57] <fsphil> wonder why it launched early
[10:57] <navrac_work> hmm not sure about the results
[10:57] <navrac_work> ah no - its reading ok nowv 7360m
[10:57] <navrac_work> but no gps data
[10:58] <fsphil> you won't get gps data until you download the almanac, and enter the rought launch coordinates
[10:58] <fsphil> http://navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=gpsAlmanacs
[10:58] <fsphil> download Current SEM Almanac - .al3
[10:58] <fsphil> in sondemonitor, go to gps-arm
[10:58] <fsphil> enter the coordinates, and press ok .. it should then ask you for the al3 file
[10:59] <fsphil> it'll then decode the position
[10:59] <WillDuckworth> what baud do they transmit at?
[11:02] <navrac_work> thanks - got it
[11:02] <fsphil> someone mentioned it was about 1200 baud
[11:04] <fsphil> that use 60mw, so can get away with that sort of speed :)
[11:04] <fsphil> that/they
[11:04] <navrac_work> ok - how do i plot the position on a map?
[11:05] <fsphil> there's a map section on it, but I've never got it to work
[11:05] <navrac_work> I do feel like a bit of an eavesdropper though....
[11:05] <fsphil> it is possible to use google earth though
[11:06] <fsphil> the last couple launched here all landed too far away
[11:06] <fsphil> to try and find it
[11:07] <navrac_work> this one seems to be above southend on sea in essex
[11:07] <navrac_work> and heading for a wet landing
[11:08] <navrac_work> its on its way down slowly
[11:08] <fsphil> ah, you caught it going down
[11:09] <fsphil> you might hear others shortly
[11:09] <navrac_work> -3m/s
[11:09] <fsphil> they're due to launch in about 5 minutes
[11:09] <navrac_work> well its a bit of entertainment for a boring monday
[11:10] <navrac_work> and since i couldnt launch mine on sunday at least i can track others
[11:10] <fsphil> it's a good way of testing systems
[11:11] <navrac_work> even if it is a little out of the frq range of the watson
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[11:13] <fsphil> there's potentially a xaben launch tomorrow
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[11:36] <daveake> Hope so
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[11:53] <nick_> How big does a 70cm yagi need to be?
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[11:56] Action: Daviey forces himself to avoid saying, "70cm"
[11:57] <joph> anyone of you build this device: http://george-smart.co.uk/wiki/FunCube_Upconverter ?
[11:57] <daveake> nick_ Not very. I have this one - http://www.moonraker.eu/Amateur-Radio/Beam-and-Yagi-Antennas/ZL-Special-Yagi-Antenna/ZL7-70-70cm-7-ELEMENT-SPECIAL-YAGI-ANTENNA
[11:58] <daveake> and that's worked well for me. More important is where you can put it.
[11:58] <daveake> Up high = good
[11:58] <daveake> That one is good for using in the chase car as it's quite compact
[12:03] <UpuWork> when it comes to recieving high = good but for general purpuse recieving you'll be better off with a colinear
[12:03] <UpuWork> remember Yagi's need pointing somewhere
[12:05] <UpuWork> If you can get a Watson up high you'll do ok
[12:06] <nick_> daveake: so tha'ts 70cm long and 33cm wide?
[12:06] <daveake> sounds about that
[12:06] <daveake> But as UpuWork says, a co-linear is best generally
[12:06] <nick_> Or is the "longest element" the distance from the centre to the end?
[12:06] <daveake> Oh I don't know. That's maths and woo-woo-physics.
[12:07] <nick_> How accurately does this type need to point at the payload?
[12:07] <daveake> 10 degrees or so
[12:08] <daveake> It varies - longer aerial --> more gain and more directional
[12:08] <daveake> My collinear has about the same gain
[12:08] <SpeedEvil> A very rough idea can be got from the gain. If the gain is tenfold, then it concentrates all the sensitivity into a solid angle 1/10th of the whole sphere.
[12:09] <daveake> A co-linear doesn't need pointing. Well, it needs pointing up but that's it. In the horizontal plane it's unidirectional, which is handy as balloons tend not to stay in the same spot
[12:09] <nick_> But is that solid angle rotationally symmetric about the antenna's axis?
[12:09] <SpeedEvil> nick_: no.
[12:09] <SpeedEvil> Usually not for many antennas.
[12:10] <nick_> Which way does it extend the most?
[12:10] <SpeedEvil> The radiation pattern of yagis for example is something with a massive lobe out front, and then random spurs.
[12:11] <SpeedEvil> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=radiation+pattern+yagi&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=fflb&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=SMr6T_q5Eeip0QWZ2uC7Bw&biw=1400&bih=898&sei=S8r6T8qHGMbL0QW1hYCrBw
[12:11] <SpeedEvil> http://www.astronwireless.com/topic-archives-antenna-radiation-patterns.asp
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[12:12] <nick_> Would it be hard to mount one of these on a servo or something?
[12:12] <SpeedEvil> Not really.
[12:12] <nick_> To get it pointing wherever it needs to be.
[12:12] <SpeedEvil> It's somewhat annoying, as metals may interfere - you meed to position it carefully.
[12:12] <SpeedEvil> And the forces involved in withstanding high wind can be substantially nonzero.
[12:13] <nick_> Well, my department is basically a square with some balcony area all around.
[12:13] <SpeedEvil> Plus - if you want to cope with birds landing on it.
[12:13] <nick_> So I'd try to put it on the roof or on one of the corners to the balcony
[12:13] <SpeedEvil> If you just want a 'fair weather' one - it's quite simple.
[12:13] <SpeedEvil> If it's got to cope with snow, hail, ... - then it gets more involved.
[12:14] <nick_> Yeah
[12:14] <UpuWork> nick you can put them on a rotator
[12:15] <UpuWork> but they are quite expensive
[12:15] <UpuWork> just stick with a colinear
[12:15] <UpuWork> cheap and do a great job
[12:15] <UpuWork> I've managed 700km+ on a Colinear
[12:15] <SpeedEvil> A homebuilt one can be done from a large RC servo
[12:15] <SpeedEvil> Directional is a big plus if you have local interference
[12:15] <eroomde> nick_: we grabbed a 'broken' rorator from the cam uni wireless society
[12:15] <eroomde> we fixed it
[12:15] <SpeedEvil> If you're on a quiet site, it's not so important.
[12:15] <eroomde> and we have an automatically tracking yagi mount
[12:15] <eroomde> it's a good system
[12:16] <eroomde> might be worth asking the ox wireless society if it has such a thing
[12:16] <Laurenceb> haha
[12:16] <Laurenceb> some chance
[12:16] <SpeedEvil> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EXTERNAL-TV-AERIAL-ANTENNA-AUTOMATIC-ROTATOR-NEW-/180882011890?pt=UK_ConElec_TVAerials_RL&hash=item2a1d6876f2
[12:17] <SpeedEvil> Isn't _too_ bad.
[12:17] <Laurenceb> does anyone know if cameras are allowed at Farnborough?
[12:17] <SpeedEvil> 1D only, but...
[12:17] <eroomde> Laurenceb: i think so? surely
[12:18] <eroomde> i am going tomorrow now
[12:18] <eroomde> tomorrow is the space day
[12:18] <SpeedEvil> Are you going in an official capacity?
[12:18] <Laurenceb> oh
[12:18] <Laurenceb> but its business only?
[12:19] <nick_> How big does a colinear have to be?
[12:19] <eroomde> i'm going as a reaction engines guest
[12:19] <eroomde> it says REL on my pass
[12:19] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: Make a buisness card 'Thrusting systems' - Our motto - 'Yeah Baby!'
[12:19] <Upu> I use a W-50 which is about 1.8 meters long nick_
[12:19] <Upu> and its fine
[12:20] <Upu> APEX use a W-30 and get great results
[12:20] <Laurenceb> i once asked some woman for her business card at a conference
[12:20] <nick_> Is it OK to basically just hang it out of my office window?
[12:20] <Laurenceb> she was from an excort agency
[12:20] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: Heh.
[12:20] <nick_> Assuming the thing I want to track is that side of my building?
[12:20] <daveake> lol
[12:20] <Laurenceb> i thought she was an engineer
[12:21] <Upu> it has to be a) high b) vertical
[12:21] <Upu> http://www.radioworld.co.uk/catalog/w-30_watson_2m_70cm_base_station_vertical_antenna-p-1946.html?osCsid=957773d17fab35c63a6cd3a98502b29e
[12:21] <Upu> £50
[12:21] <nick_> My office is higher than most of Oxford
[12:21] <daveake> If it can go on a roof where there's a 360 degree view, that'd be great
[12:21] <SpeedEvil> c) seperated from metallic structures by at least a couple of wavelengths ideally
[12:22] <SpeedEvil> minimum
[12:22] <SpeedEvil> Clear 360 view of the sky really optimum.
[12:22] <eroomde> yes ehight wins
[12:22] <fsphil> you might also need to think about lightning
[12:22] <SpeedEvil> Yagis don't mind metal behind them so much
[12:22] <eroomde> oxford itself is in a bit of a dip though
[12:22] <eroomde> which is unfortunate for tracking
[12:23] <daveake> Well it's handy when you payload is in a tree west of oxford and there's someone tracking from east of it :-)
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[12:24] <jonsowman_work> UpuWork: you're welcome to use that photo
[12:25] <nick_> I wonder if I can get onto the proper roof
[12:26] <fsphil> that would be ideal
[12:26] <nick_> Maybe I'll have a sneak around sometime this week
[12:26] <nick_> http://goo.gl/maps/7UJ6 is where I'm talking about, if anyone is interested
[12:26] <nick_> IT's making me think the engineering building is taller
[12:27] <nick_> But I'm not sure, my office looks out to the east
[12:27] <Upu> thanks jonsowman
[12:28] <nick_> There's actually a tower coming out of the department that used to be part of an accelerator, I think.
[12:29] <eroomde> Laurenceb: http://www.reactionengines.co.uk/
[12:29] <eroomde> siny and new
[12:29] <eroomde> shiny*
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[12:29] <nick_> When will they be able to fly an engine?
[12:30] <eroomde> not for a few years
[12:30] Action: SpeedEvil is actually pondering making an ice-rejecting heat exchanger at the moment.
[12:30] <eroomde> next will be a ground test of an engine
[12:30] <daveake> Just wondering ... who is it doing the "taskermilward" flight?
[12:30] <SpeedEvil> But from 4mm thick corrugated polypropylene, for house AC.
[12:30] <UpuWork> antenna needs to clear the roof line nick_
[12:30] <eroomde> but ground testing is fine, as the point of the nacelles on the sabre engine is to take all the intake volecoty out, so the engine doesn;t actually know what speed it is going at
[12:31] <nick_> UpuWork: in all directions?
[12:31] <nick_> Or just the ones I care about?
[12:31] <SpeedEvil> nick_: Ideally all.
[12:31] <SpeedEvil> nick_: Problem is that otherwise reflections cause fun issues.
[12:31] <eroomde> there should also be a flying conventional rocket powered model to test the aerodynamics of the nacelles, developed a the same time as the ground sabre engine
[12:31] <fsphil> daveake: that payload's been appearing on the tracker for a while now
[12:32] <nick_> OK
[12:32] <fsphil> why are there so many chase cars on the map
[12:32] <nick_> So what I understand is that the easy option is colinear, since I don't have to point it but it needs to be high.
[12:33] <eroomde> higher is better for any antenna
[12:33] <eroomde> unless it's a dish pointing into space
[12:33] <nick_> Or I can go with a yagi, which only needs line of sight, but needs pointing in the right direction?
[12:33] <daveake> fsphil: Yeah, I've seen it before, but can't recall anyone mentioning it was them
[12:33] <eroomde> yagis don;t need LoS any more than colinears need LoS
[12:33] <eroomde> yagi just has a very high gain in a single direction, so yes you need to be pointing at the source
[12:34] <nick_> But then thigns blocking the way in othe directions aren't a problem?
[12:34] <eroomde> not for a yagi so much
[12:34] <eroomde> as the gain is very much lower
[12:34] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: Is the engine bent for any good reason?
[12:34] <daveake> yagi is less sensitive to reflextions from walls etc
[12:34] <eroomde> but still for any antenna you want to avoid metalic things nearby, as they will distort the radioation pattern
[12:34] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: Or is it just that you want input and exhaust on different vectors
[12:35] <eroomde> SpeedEvil: yes, a very good reason - to get the thrust pointed through the CoG
[12:35] <eroomde> otherwise it doesn't work in space
[12:35] <SpeedEvil> Ah.
[12:35] <SpeedEvil> Well, it does, if you like catherine wheels.
[12:35] <SpeedEvil> :)
[12:35] <eroomde> zackly :)
[12:37] <eroomde> or your thruster's burn rate is obscene
[12:38] <Laurenceb> How Heat Exchangers Work
[12:38] <Laurenceb> whod have thunk it
[12:39] <Laurenceb> The first is the spiral arrangement of the tubes which makes the heat exchanger more efficient.
[12:39] <Laurenceb> hehe
[12:39] <Laurenceb> thats actually the second
[12:40] <Laurenceb> according to esa
[12:41] <eroomde> you're just open circuit laurenceb
[12:41] <Laurenceb> :P
[12:41] <eroomde> i am not going to provide any kind of pullup or pulldown towards the voltage rail of truth
[12:41] <eroomde> so no point talking heat exchangers around me
[12:41] <Laurenceb> shouldn't there be fins between the pipes in the rendering?
[12:42] <Laurenceb> http://www.reactionengines.co.uk/heatex_work.html
[12:42] <eroomde> better weather today isn't it
[12:42] <SpeedEvil> I wish stainless steel foil was cheaper.
[12:43] <Laurenceb> you can see straight through the exchanger
[12:43] <Laurenceb> stainless has poor conductivity
[12:43] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: Which doesn't matter if you have 100um of it, and the heatflow is dominated by the surface effects.
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[12:47] <eroomde> if the foil is thin it doesn't matter so much anyway
[12:48] <Laurenceb> has the ceramic outer sheel been prototyped?
[12:48] <Laurenceb> *shell
[12:48] <Laurenceb> it looks quite clever
[12:48] <Laurenceb> - the material
[12:49] <eroomde> yes there's lots of work going on on the shell and tps in general
[12:49] <eroomde> need to go now
[12:50] <Laurenceb> cya
[12:52] <WillDuckworth> hope there's plenty of patenting going on
[12:52] <WillDuckworth> or patent pending
[12:52] <eroomde> i am still here briefly
[12:52] <eroomde> no
[12:53] <eroomde> patents are a manual to tell everyone else in the world how you do your clever stuff
[12:53] <eroomde> much easier just to keep it a secret
[12:53] <Laurenceb> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=preventing%20heat%20exchanger%20icing&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CFsQFjAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.myninesigma.com%2Fsites%2Fpublic%2F_layouts%2FRFPs%2FNineSigma_RFP_66951.pdf&ei=_9P6T4WRJYak0AXl2JSqBw&usg=AFQjCNGPMTLcKhIdjbgkX2xaxS_5PNpTNQ&cad=rja
[12:53] <Laurenceb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclonic_separation
[12:53] Action: Laurenceb runs away
[12:53] <WillDuckworth> good stuff - hope nobody pinches the ideas!
[12:54] <Laurenceb> google knows already
[12:54] <Laurenceb> ill shut up now it ok
[12:56] <Laurenceb> also dyson didnt invent anything
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[13:33] <SpeedEvil> I have problems with that in ways.
[13:33] <SpeedEvil> 'inventor' as a devalued term.
[13:33] <SpeedEvil> See the wind-up radio guy.
[13:34] <SpeedEvil> He 'invented' a bit of questionable technology.
[13:34] <SpeedEvil> A decent small NiCd cell would be a lot better for storing energy than the big spring
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[17:12] <davefrisbee> Hi I'm new to the altitude ballooning. Can anyone recommend a good area in the UK to conduct a launch?
[17:15] <nick_> wherever is near you :D
[17:15] <daveake> 200m from home does me fine :)
[17:16] <nick_> Where are you from?
[17:16] <nick_> It might be there's someone local to you who could help
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[17:17] <davefrisbee> Hi I'm in Wales, I was just worried about the balloon drifting out to sea as I'm not sure about the potential size of the area in which it could land.
[17:18] <jonsowman> http://habhub.org/predict
[17:18] <jonsowman> enjoy
[17:18] <nick_> davefrisbee: I've not launched anything myself but you've got a whole island to aim at.
[17:18] <daveake> Generally they go NE. Varies though. Quite a lot.
[17:18] <nick_> And depending on what you want to launch falling into the sea might not be a problem.
[17:19] <davefrisbee> cheers jonsowman.
[17:20] <davefrisbee> I'm looking at the payload being a camera in a styrofoam box
[17:20] <nick_> I guess you don't want to donate a camera to the fish.
[17:21] <daveake> They're fully stocked
[17:22] <daveake> davefrisbee What's your plan for tracking and locating it?
[17:22] <nick_> This week I'm feeling much happier about the possibility of losing my cosmic detector.
[17:22] <nick_> Now that the cost has more than halved
[17:26] <davefrisbee> looking at using a cheap phone with a location app.
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[17:28] <nick_> Risky
[17:28] <nick_> Generally people transmit position data continuously during the flight.
[17:28] <nick_> And maybe also send a location text when landed too
[17:30] <SpeedEvil> I'm idly wondering what you might do with balloons that cost a pound, and can lift a few hundred grams to 10kmish.
[17:32] <nick_> Drop lego men under parachute across europe?
[17:32] <SpeedEvil> hmm.
[17:33] <davefrisbee> Yeah I know it will be risky, but me and my mate are looking at doing this on a budget
[17:33] <nick_> The standard telemetry isn't too expensive.
[17:34] <SpeedEvil> nick_: Do you think accidental damage polcies would cover sending a mobile 30km up, and it not coming back?
[17:34] <SpeedEvil> I mean - it was an accident.
[17:35] <nick_> Yeah
[17:35] <nick_> You had every intention of it coming back down
[17:35] <nick_> Only magic kept it up there.
[17:35] <nick_> :D
[17:35] <nick_> Actually a kid semi seriously asked me this.
[17:35] <davefrisbee> can you recommend anything that is not to expensive, nick
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[17:35] <nick_> "Will you leave the detector up there?"
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[17:35] <nick_> UpuWork sells these kinds of things
[17:36] <nick_> http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_60&product_id=68 is a £40 GPS module with antenna, for example
[17:38] <nick_> You'd also need a radio module like http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=71_63&product_id=61 (£20) to transmit it
[17:38] <nick_> And I think a transmitting antenna made out of some coat hangers or something?
[17:38] <nick_> So not quite as cheap as a mobile phone you already have
[17:39] <davefrisbee> cheers nick
[17:39] <nick_> But on the other hand you get to transmit location in real time, so you feed that into the predictor and get a much better idea of where the thing will land.
[17:39] <nick_> And so hopefully improve your chances of finding your payload again.
[17:40] <nick_> If you can catch UpuWork when he's available (he often is) then ask him for more details.
[17:40] <nick_> Or just about anyone who has successfully launched and retreived a payload (which doesn't include me)
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[17:42] <davefrisbee> Thanks . I have to go but as Mr. Schawarzenegger said 'I'll be back'
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[17:54] <Upu> cheers nick_
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[18:08] <nick_> y/w
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[18:25] <nick_> When is the ukhas conference?
[18:25] <jonsowman> http://ukhas.org.uk/general:ukhasconference2012
[18:29] <fsphil> is the date definite?
[18:29] <Upu> yes
[18:30] <fsphil> grand, I can start planning
[18:30] <Upu> Hopefully jcoxon will be sending a mail out asking for monies shortly
[18:30] <Upu> and when money gets involved thats officially official
[18:30] <fsphil> no more official than that
[18:30] <daveake> I shall dig into my HAB budget then :D
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[18:38] <fsphil> hmm.. I always thought gatwick was a good bit closer to london than luton
[18:39] <nigelvh> I'll have to patiently wait for a "ukhas - west"
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[18:39] <fsphil> not much difference
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[18:54] <SpeedEvil> Argh.
[18:54] <SpeedEvil> I was looking forward to my Pizza. Only to find that instead of being in for 20 mins at 220C, it's been in for 20 mins at 40C.
[18:55] <SpeedEvil> It is not piping hot and ready to eat.
[18:55] <KT5TK_QRL1> Radiate some 2.4 GHz on it
[18:55] <SpeedEvil> Microwaved pizza is doubleplusungood.
[18:56] <nigelvh> doubleplus true brother.
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[18:56] <KT5TK_QRL1> Just a question of ERP. You can generate enough elementar carbon if necessary :)
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[19:07] <Upu> hey mclane
[19:08] <mclane> hello upu
[19:08] <Laurenceb_> die hard
[19:08] <Upu> Just sent you a mail
[19:08] <mclane> got your email
[19:08] <Upu> internets ftw
[19:08] <mclane> thanks!
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[19:08] <fsphil> lol Laurenceb_
[19:09] <Upu> mclane https://dl.dropbox.com/u/63720513/Images/HAB/HAB%20Filter/IMG_0709.JPG 1st batch
[19:09] <Upu> half built
[19:10] <mclane> perfect; I never would be able to do that smd stuff
[19:10] <fsphil> you'd be surprised
[19:10] <Upu> come to the conference I'll show you how to do it
[19:10] <fsphil> it's not nearly as scary as i expected
[19:10] <KT5TK_QRL1> Inspired by VK5QI's MicroNut and Justin Kenny's Rev0Trac VTx I've also designed a tiny payload transmitter.
[19:10] <KT5TK_QRL1> http://kt5tk.tkrahn.com/download/PecanNut/ . I named it PecanNut to give it a it of Texas flavor.
[19:10] <KT5TK_QRL1> Before I send off the PCB layout to Seeedstudio I'm all open for comments, critics, warnings, feature requests etc.
[19:11] <Upu> honetly its easier than through hole
[19:11] <Upu> hey KT5TK
[19:11] <Upu> give me a few mins I'll take a looksee
[19:11] <KT5TK_QRL1> Hi, yes
[19:11] <fsphil> needs more vias :)
[19:12] <KT5TK_QRL1> NP, I should mention that you also contibuted some stuff Upu
[19:12] <Laurenceb_> you know seeed do 12mil vias
[19:12] <Laurenceb_> a bit smaller?
[19:12] <KT5TK_QRL1> You find another location for a via :) ?
[19:12] <Upu> its ok I just steal stuff from everyone else anyway point in question : https://dl.dropbox.com/u/63720513/Images/PCB%20Pictures/IMG_0863.JPG
[19:13] <Upu> wow
[19:13] <KT5TK_QRL1> Yes consider the design of PecanNut 100% open.
[19:14] <fsphil> it's open in more than one way :)
[19:14] <Upu> in Texas do you have via sub machine guns ? :)
[19:14] <Upu> ok few quick ones : right click something and select Smash
[19:15] <Upu> you can then delete the text which is over some pads
[19:15] <Upu> like near LED1 for example
[19:15] <KT5TK_QRL1> I'll have to re-check the via diameter. The seeed studio rules didn't complain
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[19:15] <Upu> what GPS antenna are you using ?
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[19:15] <Upu> oh ADF7012 your brave
[19:15] <Upu> have you got some ?
[19:15] <fsphil> yea, and amp
[19:16] <fsphil> what power will this put out?
[19:16] <Upu> damn americans and their fancy laws :)
[19:16] <KT5TK_QRL1> There are 3 antenna options. Chip SMA, and this mini coax connector thing.
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[19:17] <Upu> Personally I'd pick one and stick with it but up to you
[19:17] <Upu> oh yes I see
[19:18] <KT5TK_QRL1> I have two ADF7012 samples, but I'll get at least 10 boards.
[19:18] <Upu> Well I have 5 ADF7012's you can have if you pay me for the postage
[19:19] <Laurenceb_> wonder if you could make it do psk
[19:20] <KT5TK_QRL1> The ADF has data lines connected. So just need to write PSK software
[19:20] <Upu> KT5TK https://join.me/781-097-720
[19:21] <KT5TK_QRL1> Nice!
[19:21] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[19:21] <Laurenceb_> im not sure how accurate pll retune will be
[19:21] <Laurenceb_> if it will be phase coherenct
[19:21] <Upu> only things I would say the GPS line isn't quite straight
[19:21] <Laurenceb_> so you can use a costas loop
[19:22] <fsphil> holy pcb batman!
[19:22] <Upu> you got text over pads
[19:23] <Upu> and I'm not sure about the chip antenna @ 90'
[19:23] <KT5TK_QRL1> I usually don't care too much about text but how can I adjust it?
[19:23] <Upu> watch
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[19:23] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[19:23] <KT5TK_QRL1> Ah, I see.
[19:23] <Laurenceb_> thats quite cool
[19:23] <Lunar_Lander> today we tested the board using a multimeter in "diode" mode
[19:23] <Upu> 1 sec wife calling
[19:24] <KT5TK_QRL1> Let me work on Text removal tonight.
[19:24] <Lunar_Lander> and we found the short which was the remaining VCC wire to where the barosensor socket had been, which I then desoldered and I resoldered the old regulator
[19:24] <Lunar_Lander> plugged the batteries in, got a green light and regulator did not get hot
[19:25] <Upu> back
[19:25] <Upu> yup its a busy board :)
[19:26] <Upu> 31mmx 80mm
[19:26] <Upu> quite small :)
[19:26] <Lunar_Lander> what does it mean if you switch the multimeter to that diode symbol?
[19:26] <Upu> continuity
[19:26] <KT5TK_QRL1> I've designed the witdth so that it will fit through the neck of a Gatorade bottle.
[19:27] <Upu> the web gerber thing is great
[19:27] <Upu> http://mayhewlabs.com/webGerber/
[19:27] <daveake> Diode test - it increases the voltage to a volt or so - enough to "see through" a diode.
[19:27] <daveake> Then you can test which pin is anode and which is cathode
[19:28] <daveake> In other resistance modes the voltage is lower and the diode will show as open-circuit either way round
[19:28] <daveake> On some meters the diode mode and buzzer mode are the same position
[19:28] <Upu> thats my smallest
[19:29] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[19:29] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[19:29] <Lunar_Lander> that way we found the short
[19:29] <Upu> KT5TK that there is how the strip line to the antenna should be
[19:30] <Upu> by my calcs if your using 0.4mm board that strip needs to be 0.8mm wide
[19:30] <Upu> 0.6mm = 1.2mm strip
[19:30] <Upu> 0.8mm = 1.6mm strip
[19:30] <KT5TK_QRL1> Understand, but chip antenna is not my first priority.
[19:30] <Upu> to get 50ohms
[19:30] <Upu> no fair enough
[19:30] <KT5TK_QRL1> This might increase board size.
[19:31] <Upu> but other than that and it looks like a block of swiss cheese of vias its fine :)
[19:31] <Upu> rest of board operate @ 5V ?
[19:32] <KT5TK_QRL1> VCC=3.3 V. Only the PA is 5V.
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[19:32] <Upu> how come you have a separate power regulator for the GPS ?
[19:33] <KT5TK_QRL1> The PA doesn't necessarily needs to be populated.
[19:33] <KT5TK_QRL1> just solder a bridge.
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[19:34] <KT5TK_QRL1> The separate power for GPS is to switch it off when not needed and save plenty of power.
[19:34] <Upu> I see
[19:34] <Upu> you can put it in very low power mode through software
[19:34] <Upu> 5mA or so
[19:34] <Upu> or switch it off / on using a fet
[19:35] <Upu> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:ublox_psm
[19:35] <Upu> saves the additional regulator but I see what you've done there
[19:36] <Upu> that radio circuit looks so complex :)
[19:36] <KT5TK_QRL1> The FET is probably the same size as the regulator.
[19:36] <Upu> oo my library :)
[19:36] <Upu> possibly
[19:37] <Upu> you don't need an active antenna you know
[19:37] <KT5TK_QRL1> THE GPS LED is on when uBLOX is powered and blinks when it has a lease
[19:38] <Upu> yeah but if your saving power loose all the LED :)
[19:38] <Upu> 20mA is alot :)
[19:38] <Upu> and these things work fine with passive antennas
[19:38] <KT5TK_QRL1> Yes, I'll populate that in the development version. In the flight version I can leave the LEDs away.
[19:38] <Upu> impressed you've got all that on there :)
[19:39] <Upu> have fun soldering that lot
[19:39] <Upu> :)
[19:40] <KT5TK_QRL1> Congrats for finding more possible vias :)
[19:40] <Upu> lol
[19:41] <KT5TK_QRL1> Any more feature requests?
[19:41] <Upu> probably less vias needed tbh
[19:41] <Upu> you'll have some poor robot in China wanting to do the robot equivalent of topping itself
[19:41] <KT5TK_QRL1> Whats bad about them?
[19:42] <Upu> with that many they may weaken the PCB especially if your going for thinner PCB material
[19:42] <KT5TK_QRL1> weight loss ;)
[19:42] <Upu> indeed
[19:42] <Upu> the end launch connectors will weigh more than the rest of the board
[19:42] <Upu> anyway if you need the MAX6s let me know
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[19:43] <KT5TK_QRL1> I will let you know for MAX6 for sure. I don't get them in the US.
[19:43] <KT5TK_QRL1> (except for $100)
[19:43] <Upu> hah
[19:44] <Upu> $20 each from me ?
[19:44] <Upu> sec let me do the conversion
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[19:44] <KT5TK_QRL1> but I already tested a max6 breakout board and I love this chip
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[19:45] <Upu> $27 excluding shipping
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[19:45] <KT5TK_QRL1> I still have 1 MAX6 but I'll need 9 more. I'll send you an email when it's time for it.
[19:46] <jcoxon> evening all
[19:46] <Upu> how come your making 10 boards ?
[19:46] <Upu> evening jcoxon
[19:46] <KT5TK_QRL1> Seeedstudio minimum order
[19:46] <Upu> doesn't mean you have to make 10 :)
[19:47] <Upu> however don't let me put you off ordering 10 GPS units :)
[19:47] <KT5TK_QRL1> They'll go away for sure.
[19:48] <KT5TK_QRL1> Depending how you'll populate the boards they may be cheap enough to be for one time use.
[19:49] <Upu> well thats happening alot in the UK now with the floaters etc
[19:49] <Upu> you can make a board for £40-£50
[19:49] <Upu> which is almost considered dispsable
[19:49] <KT5TK_QRL1> BTW the Si571 can be replaced with a cheap 5x7 VCXO
[19:50] <Upu> buy 10 GPS modules and I'll throw in whatever ADF7012's I have left for free
[19:50] <KT5TK_QRL1> I just designed the board so that I have SDA/SCL available
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[19:52] <KT5TK_QRL1> Wanna get rid of the ADF7012's?
[19:52] <Upu> yeah
[19:52] <KT5TK_QRL1> didn't work for you?
[19:54] <Upu> never finished the board and started using the RFM22B instead
[19:54] <mclane> Hi guys, need to drop out; interesting conversation!
[19:54] <Upu> I think I have 3
[19:54] <KT5TK_QRL1> I've been playing with RFM12b s but they don't get down to 144.93 APRS
[19:54] <Upu> laters mclane
[19:55] <Upu> no they don't
[19:55] <Upu> you can use the Radiometrix HX1
[19:55] <Upu> but the ADF7012 will probably be more flexible
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[19:55] <KT5TK_QRL1> That's what everyone uses. I wat to be frequency agile.
[19:56] <Upu> yup fair enough
[19:56] <KT5TK_QRL1> And possibly do all kind of different modes with the same board
[19:56] <Upu> we get round this problem in the UK by having silly laws that don't let us use any frequencies
[19:56] <fsphil> it's a cunning plan really
[19:57] <KT5TK_QRL1> Same board can be populated for 434 MHz
[19:57] <Upu> yeah thats what we use, we've made the NTX2 do clever things sort of
[19:58] <KT5TK_QRL1> ADF7012 + ADL5531 = still cheaper than a HTX
[19:59] <KT5TK_QRL1> Still more labor to solder though
[19:59] <Upu> yep
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[20:07] <KT5TK_QRL1> BTW this is the GPS antenna I had used before with the MAX6:
[20:07] <KT5TK_QRL1> http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Taoglas/AP17F070064A/?qs=QpZVHcK7GhR%252bx8qFNCS%252bxonOe%2fJhw48S
[20:08] <KT5TK_QRL1> Ah, sorry, it was this one.
[20:08] <KT5TK_QRL1> http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Taoglas/AP17E070064A/?qs=QpZVHcK7GhQFk7xy5GkvgKkZsHEMWcaV
[20:08] <Upu> I think people here tend to use the Sarantel SL-1202
[20:09] <Upu> when doing PCB's anyway
[20:09] <KT5TK_QRL1> The one with the last link is a bit lighter than the Sarantel. And in my experience more sensitive. Probably doesn't matter for a balloon.
[20:10] <KT5TK_QRL1> I believe I could also solder a Sarantel instead of a SNA
[20:10] <KT5TK_QRL1> SMA
[20:11] <Upu> both probably true but like you say doesn't matter unless your doing pico flights
[20:11] <Upu> i.e foil balloons
[20:11] <KT5TK_QRL1> Or solar tetrons
[20:12] <Upu> yep
[20:13] <KT5TK_QRL1> We're going to Alaska in Sept and want to try one on a gacier.
[20:13] <KT5TK_QRL1> Cold & sun should work best.
[20:13] <KT5TK_QRL1> Sun is still in question though
[20:14] <jcoxon> KT5TK_QRL1, that would be awesome
[20:14] <jcoxon> from alaska a float to get into the polar vortex
[20:14] <jcoxon> circle the globe...
[20:14] <KT5TK_QRL1> Just depends on the weather when we're there.
[20:15] <Upu> yikes that would be really cool - solar power :)
[20:15] <KT5TK_QRL1> We just can't get Helium on the cruise ship
[20:16] <KT5TK_QRL1> How far north do you need to be to get in the arctic winds?
[20:16] <jcoxon> it really depends
[20:16] <jcoxon> time of year is key
[20:16] <Upu> KT5TK write "medical oxygen" on the cylinder :)
[20:17] <Upu> *joke
[20:17] <jcoxon> tracking it wouldbe a challenge
[20:17] <Upu> sounds like a perfect job for spot
[20:17] <KT5TK_QRL1> Even oxygen is not allowed. They supply oxygen on board for those who need.
[20:17] <Upu> solar tetron on a glacier that will be fun :)
[20:26] <nigelvh> Just claim you have a medical helium deficiency.
[20:27] <KT5TK_QRL1> Or build a homemade hydrogen generator in the cabin ;)
[20:27] <nigelvh> Lots of salt water available
[20:30] <Lunar_Lander> hi nigelvh
[20:30] <nigelvh> Howdy Lunar_Lander
[20:30] <Lunar_Lander> how are you?
[20:31] <nigelvh> Doing alright. Super tired. Also, really considering putting together something like what KT5TK is working on. Would solve some headaches we have.
[20:33] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[20:33] <Lunar_Lander> cool
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[20:35] <nigelvh> Mostly it's the frequency agile bit that's really nice sounding. We're constantly working over what modules we want to use on different bands, and how to adjust the circuits to match them and whatnot. To build one module, does it all, and is standardized, would be awesome.
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[20:45] <Lunar_Lander> nigelvh, yea
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[20:58] <Lunar_Lander> nigelvh, I am also really tired
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[21:14] <Laurenceb_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=xVii7ATF-fk#t=131s
[21:14] <Laurenceb_> when you think you have no life you can just watch that
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[21:31] <staylo> I was actually given a LARP magazine by a friend recently. Now have the difficult task of disposing of it in the most anonymous way possible
[21:32] <Lunar_Lander> staylo, ?
[21:34] <staylo> I was replying to laurence's youtube link :)
[21:34] <Randomskk> staylo: burn it with fire
[21:34] <Randomskk> it's the only way to be sure
[21:34] <Randomskk> Laurenceb_: actually I know some people who went to maelstrom
[21:34] <Randomskk> nothing strictly wrong with larping
[21:35] <Randomskk> it's a shame they talk in such silly voices
[21:35] <Randomskk> and have to have drawn on beards >_>
[21:36] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[21:37] <Laurenceb_> i thought it was a cat face
[21:39] <Lunar_Lander> I tried something
[21:39] <Lunar_Lander> I took Upu's code example for the NTX2
[21:39] <Lunar_Lander> and I added a Led Pin and then added a function I called "blueled()" and added that
[21:39] <Laurenceb_> why dont you make a pcb?
[21:40] <Lunar_Lander> and gave an if statement to pull the pin high when the Mark Pin was high
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[21:40] <Lunar_Lander> but that resulted in like having only one line in dl-fldigi
[21:40] <Lunar_Lander> Laurenceb_ because that is hard
[21:40] <Lunar_Lander> when I try to add an atmega2560 in Eagle it is so painful to route the things
[21:41] <nigelvh> "the things" are often hard to route.
[21:41] <Lunar_Lander> and my back hurts cause my chair is broken
[21:42] <Laurenceb_> :(
[21:42] <Laurenceb_> buy a cushion
[21:43] <Laurenceb_> route 10 airwires a day and you'll soon be done
[21:43] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[21:43] <Lunar_Lander> my problem is like
[21:43] <Lunar_Lander> the other Atmel chips only have one UART
[21:43] <Laurenceb_> lol
[21:43] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[21:44] <Laurenceb_> avr is annoyting
[21:44] <Laurenceb_> avr34 ?
[21:44] <Laurenceb_> 644 maybe? i forget
[21:44] <Lunar_Lander> the 644 also only has one according to the atmel papers
[21:44] <Lunar_Lander> the first one with 4 is the 1280
[21:44] <Lunar_Lander> which is already 100 pin SMD
[21:46] <Laurenceb_> you dont have to use all pins
[21:47] <Lunar_Lander> won't Eagle object to that?
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[21:49] <nick_> No
[21:49] <Laurenceb_> atmega644
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[21:49] <hello_> Hi, just wanted to ask quickly, is it possible to do a HAB project as a non-programmer?
[21:49] <nick_> It'll only object if your route things in your schematic and not your board
[21:49] <Lunar_Lander> Laurenceb_, nick_ ah ok, thanks
[21:49] <nick_> hello_: it is possible starting as a non programmer.
[21:49] <Randomskk> hello_: yes but you might become one by the end
[21:50] <hello_> Of course, I'm wanting to learn, I was just thinking it could be
[21:50] <nick_> In fact if you just used someone else's code you could do it without programming, but the code you need is really quite simple, so worth learning anyway.
[21:50] <hello_> Possible to balloon and learn simultaneously
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[21:50] <nick_> hello_: definitely
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[21:51] <hello_> Arduinos use c++, right?
[21:51] <nick_> I'd expect anyone with the computing skills enough to use IRC to be able to learn the necessary programming in an afternoon.
[21:51] <nick_> yeah
[21:51] <Randomskk> IRC really isn't hard at all
[21:51] <Randomskk> and a totally unrelated skillset to programming, beyond the fact that both have typing...
[21:51] <nick_> Nor is programming an arduino
[21:52] <Randomskk> nonetheless yes, exactly
[21:52] <hello_> Haha, I know the basics of programming, ie what it is and the concept, i just dont know a language.
[21:52] <Randomskk> programming is straightforward enough and there's heaps of example code on the wiki
[21:52] <Randomskk> interesting
[21:52] <nick_> You can get a long way with just stuff like:
[21:52] <Randomskk> a lot of people know a language but don't seem to know the concept
[21:52] <nick_> digitalWrite(5, HIGH)
[21:52] <nick_> x = digitalRead(5)
[21:52] <nick_> etc
[21:53] <Randomskk> Laurenceb_: http://tech.slashdot.org/story/12/07/09/196234/indoor-navigation-on-your-smartphone-using-the-earths-magnetic-field
[21:53] <nick_> You really don't need to know the ins and outs of C to get some arduino sketches working
[21:53] <Lunar_Lander> can the 644 also be used as an arduino?
[21:54] <Laurenceb_> erm thats impossible
[21:54] <nick_> What does the mega run on?
[21:54] <hello_> Is there any guide you could point me to in order to learn the specific. It for ballooning? I've found plenty of guides for c++ from scratch, but I was thinking itd be more efficient to learn a moe task specific skillset
[21:54] <Laurenceb_> you can expropriate a bit
[21:54] <Lunar_Lander> mega has a 2560
[21:54] <Laurenceb_> but its not going to give unique position
[21:54] <SpeedEvil> C++ is fairly useless
[21:54] <SpeedEvil> C is all you need.
[21:54] <daveake> yup
[21:55] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[21:55] <SpeedEvil> C++ is way more confusing.
[21:55] <Lunar_Lander> I am afraid a PCB can't be made then
[21:55] <nick_> hello_: look at the arduino website
[21:55] <nick_> It's really helpful.
[21:55] <hello_> Right, but id have to use it to talk to the arduino right? Unless theres some way to use python
[21:55] <Randomskk> nick_: ukhas.org.uk
[21:55] <Randomskk> the wiki is full of code
[21:55] <Randomskk> and yes, you'd use c++ on the arduino, but the fun part is you can just use the bits of c++ that are essentially the same as C
[21:55] <nick_> http://arduino.cc/en/Reference/HomePage is good
[21:56] <hello_> Oops,mean c not python. So I should just learn C? Ive got time this summer, how long will it take do you reckon?
[21:56] <hello_> Or at least *enough* C
[21:56] <SpeedEvil> Basic C - enough for ballooning should be a week or two.
[21:57] <nick_> Get an arduino (they're only £20)
[21:57] <nick_> Buy some kit for it or some components
[21:57] <SpeedEvil> operators, conditionals, loops, the standard library - printf and friends.
[21:57] <nick_> Sit down with that, a computer and the arduino site and you'll be writing programs for it in no time.
[21:57] <hello_> I have one :)
[21:58] <nick_> Cool
[21:58] <nick_> Then start making cool stuff!
[21:59] <nick_> A lot of people here use arduinos for their HAB projects.
[21:59] <nick_> I assume the wiki (ukhas.org.uk) has some write ups.
[21:59] <hello_> Ive had a quick gander at the wiki, looks oretty complex
[21:59] <nick_> But really it's worth doing some simple projects to get used to thinking like an arduino first.
[22:00] <nick_> Get an LED blinking
[22:00] <hello_> Long done that :p
[22:00] <nick_> Measure some stuff and turn on a numeber of LEDs to reflect that.
[22:00] <nick_> Get talking to some kit over SPI/I2C/Serial/whatever
[22:01] <nick_> Pretty soon the kind of things you'll need to use for HAB will be easy
[22:01] <hello_> Ok, I think I'll need to get used to writing my osn code from scratch rather than modifying others.
[22:01] <hello_> Thats what ive been used to so far.
[22:02] <nick_> Reading other people's code is useful too.
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[22:02] <nick_> And talking about it.
[22:02] <Lunar_Lander> nick_, Laurenceb_ I am afraid a PCB is impossible to do
[22:02] <nick_> Why?
[22:02] <nick_> What do you want the PCB to do?
[22:04] <hello_> The other thing I wanted to knmow, how does one get an old nokia to transmit gps data? I've got a good few, and I could use those to track as well.
[22:05] <hello_> As nackup
[22:05] <hello_> *backup
[22:05] <nick_> How old?
[22:05] <Lunar_Lander> Laurenceb_ brought up the idea first
[22:05] <hello_> Let me check
[22:05] <Lunar_Lander> that ground plane stuff
[22:05] <Lunar_Lander> I don't get it
[22:05] <KT5TK_QRL1> Careful, the Nokia GPS will probably not work as high as your ballon flies.
[22:06] <nick_> Lunar_Lander: I'm going to go be sociable now, and I'm by no means an expert at designing PCBs but I'm happy to talk through your problem another time if you want.
[22:06] <Laurenceb_> PCB is _never_ impossible
[22:07] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:07] <daveake> More to the point, the Nokia won't be able to do GSM above 2km or so
[22:07] <nick_> I want to make a PCB soon using LPC1768
[22:07] <Lunar_Lander> also we want to do a radio range test next week
[22:07] <hello_> Oh right
[22:07] <Lunar_Lander> we can't make a PCB by that
[22:07] <nick_> Not for cheap, no
[22:07] <hello_> Id seen it used on a project in the wiki, as a backup, hohoho i think it was
[22:07] <daveake> I assume btw he wants to send a message through the Nokia from his flight computer, which depending on the Nokia may be quite easy
[22:08] <Lunar_Lander> my head is about to fail :(
[22:08] <daveake> I've done it, with an Ericsson phone and with a Wavecom modem
[22:08] <hello_> Yeah thats clearer sorry
[22:08] <daveake> Format message --> send to phone
[22:08] <daveake> Pretty much
[22:08] <Lunar_Lander> daveake, did you make PCBs before?
[22:09] <daveake> Yes
[22:09] <daveake> Next question ....
[22:09] <DanielRichman> Yup. The hardest bit is turning it into the weird 7bit SMS format - if the phone requires that. But you can totally just drop someone else's code in to do that
[22:09] <daveake> Yeah, PDU is a PITA
[22:09] <daveake> Hateful
[22:10] <Lunar_Lander> how do you make a PCB without your head bursting open?
[22:10] <daveake> My Ericsson did* PDU, but the wavecom is simple text
[22:10] <daveake> *Did before the English channel killed it
[22:10] <Laurenceb_> PCB is _never_ impossible
[22:10] <SpeedEvil> Lunar_Lander: One wire at a time.
[22:10] <Laurenceb_> http://i.imgur.com/hYDXy.png
[22:10] <DanielRichman> shameless plug https://github.com/danielrichman/alien/blob/master/misc-c/arduino-168/at-sms.c
[22:10] <Laurenceb_> case in point
[22:10] <Lunar_Lander> yeah but I can't use the atmega 644 with arduino as said above
[22:10] <Lunar_Lander> 328 simply is too small
[22:11] <nick_> Lunar_Lander: the first one I made was relatively simple and basically took a few iterations of me designing, showing it to someone, them pointing out a problem,e tc
[22:11] <Lunar_Lander> and the 2560 things are huge and SMD
[22:11] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[22:11] <daveake> Lunar_Lander I used to do them by hand, using pen and paper to draw the design, and transfers and tape to mark the PCB before etching. Granted these days there are more pins and wires, but Ithe principle is the same
[22:12] <nick_> Lunar_Lander: you could try designing a mega shield instead
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[22:13] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:13] <nick_> If you don't wnat to actually solder up the atmega2560
[22:13] <Lunar_Lander> but I want to say what my problem is with a shield
[22:13] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:13] <hello_> About the code you mentioned earlier for tracking, I'd love to read some, but It's not obvious on the wiki, is there a specific subsection for it that I've overlooked?
[22:13] <hello_> (sorry to interrupt)
[22:14] <Lunar_Lander> I got all those SFE breakouts
[22:14] <Lunar_Lander> how can they be used?
[22:14] <jcoxon> hello_, don't apologise - IRC is a multi-coversational system
[22:15] <Laurenceb_> its biggest positive
[22:15] <Laurenceb_> and also its biggest negative
[22:15] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[22:15] <SpeedEvil> Lunar_Lander: Wirewrap is much easier.
[22:16] <SpeedEvil> Just do that.
[22:16] <KT5TK_QRL1> hello_ Which country do you want to launch the balloon? Do you have a HAM license?
[22:16] <hello_> UK, and I dont, no :(
[22:16] <Lunar_Lander> wirewrap?
[22:17] <Laurenceb_> hes trolling
[22:18] <KT5TK_QRL1> OK, then you can't use APRS. The UKHAS wiki describes some RTTY method with 434 MHz unlicensed transmitters.
[22:18] <Lunar_Lander> wait
[22:18] <SpeedEvil> Somewhat. Though there is no routing for that.
[22:18] <Lunar_Lander> I'm not trolling
[22:18] <Lunar_Lander> I just like don't get it anymore :(
[22:18] <SpeedEvil> Seriously - making PCBs is not hard.
[22:18] <SpeedEvil> It's involved, and irritating at times.
[22:18] <Randomskk> KT5TK_QRL1: can't fly HAM licenses in the UK anyway
[22:18] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[22:19] <Lunar_Lander> I spent like one night testing EAGLE already
[22:19] <Lunar_Lander> and I think I got the concept
[22:19] <SpeedEvil> But if you can relax the spacing, and perhaps add more layers, you can do pretty much anything.
[22:19] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:19] <Lunar_Lander> the layer thing
[22:19] <Lunar_Lander> what is that exactly?
[22:19] <KT5TK_QRL1> I know, but that's why I asked where he launches.
[22:19] <Randomskk> hello_: I would just explore the wiki a lot -- it contains example code but also a lot of details on radios and how to set things up and helpful hints and so forth
[22:19] <SpeedEvil> For stuff like HAB - where teher are typically under a dozen major chips - it's relaly fairly basic.
[22:19] <SpeedEvil> Lunar_Lander: layers are how many layers of insulated copper there are on the board.
[22:19] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[22:20] <Lunar_Lander> so you can have lines crossing each other by using that?
[22:20] <SpeedEvil> Lunar_Lander: Single sided is easy to make at home. (for various definitions of easy) but you can't have crossing tracks.
[22:20] <hello_> Right-hom im off to read the wiki
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[22:20] <SpeedEvil> Double layer and up is ordered - for a small or larger fee for more layers
[22:20] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:21] <Lunar_Lander> because when I worked with the atmega2560 (or better experimented) it always complained about crossings and overlaps
[22:22] <Laurenceb_> did you cross traces?!
[22:22] <KT5TK_QRL1> Eagle wants you to solve the crossings by manual routing.
[22:23] <Lunar_Lander> what I did was looking at the eagle files for the arduino pro mega and I then tried to replicate their schematic
[22:23] <nick_> bit.ly/mbedDataLogger
[22:23] <Lunar_Lander> for the GND and VCC connections of the chip
[22:23] <nick_> Is what I was working on today.
[22:23] <Lunar_Lander> and then I tried to do manual routing, but ended up having to cross tracks
[22:24] <nick_> Lunar_Lander: sorry, I was not paying attention for a while.
[22:24] <Lunar_Lander> no problem
[22:24] <nick_> You can use breakouts on your shield, it'll just be a little ugly.
[22:24] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:25] <Lunar_Lander> sorry for being so stupid
[22:25] <nick_> Now I really should go be sociable before I go to bed...
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[22:26] <Lunar_Lander> also sorry to Laurenceb_ and SpeedEvil
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[22:30] <Lunar_Lander> and thank you for the information
[22:31] <Lunar_Lander> and sorry for making your angry
[22:31] <Lunar_Lander> -r
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[22:37] <daveake> New payload - http://i.imgur.com/Llvw1.jpg
[22:40] <daveake> rPi at the bottom; batteries and regulators at the top; webcam hiding underneath some foam at top-right
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[22:48] <Lunar_Lander> I just did some calculations about a voltage divider for reading the battery voltage
[22:49] <Lunar_Lander> that is why I came back
[22:49] <Lunar_Lander> I assumed putting in 4.5V and I wanted to get 3.3V out for that, i.e. that a full reading would be also a full reading at the arduino
[22:49] <Lunar_Lander> and for that I get that like the lower resistor must be quite bigger than the upper resistor in the divider
[22:50] <Lunar_Lander> i.e. 10 k and 27 k
[22:50] <daveake> http://www.electronics2000.co.uk/calc/potential-divider-calculator.php
[22:51] <Lunar_Lander> thanks
[22:52] <daveake> http://arduino.cc/it/Reference/AnalogReference
[22:52] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:52] <Lunar_Lander> I got the pro mega 3.3V
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[22:52] <Lunar_Lander> so there 255 would be equal to 3.3V unlike on the 5V models?
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[22:53] <daveake> http://arduino.cc/en/Reference/AnalogRead#
[22:53] <Lunar_Lander> thanks
[22:53] <Lunar_Lander> ah that is interestng
[22:53] <Lunar_Lander> *interesting
[22:54] <Lunar_Lander> it really has the 10 bit ADC
[22:54] <Lunar_Lander> I think the sparkfun balloon had a 8 bit one thus the difference in the description
[22:55] <Lunar_Lander> because when my professor and I discussed that he said it would be like the best to have the highest value (like 1023) correspond to full batteries
[22:56] <daveake> +headroom
[22:56] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:56] <Lunar_Lander> thanks for the calculator daveake, seems like my calculation was correct
[22:56] <Lunar_Lander> the site is quite useful :)
[22:57] <SpeedEvil> highest possible - but don't go too tight.
[22:57] <SpeedEvil> If you assume that 1.5V is maximum on AA batteries for example - you lose information for the first little while on lithium
[22:58] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[22:58] <Lunar_Lander> yeah I got a 3x Alkaline pack and a 4x Energizer Lithium
[22:58] <Lunar_Lander> and the latter don't give 6 but like 7.1 V
[22:59] <daveake> 1.84V I think is the highest I've seen.
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[22:59] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:59] <Lunar_Lander> on a Lithium?
[23:00] <SpeedEvil> 2V/cell is a nice round number to asume
[23:00] <SpeedEvil> you essentially don't care about resolution.
[23:00] <SpeedEvil> As unless you take _heroic_ measures - you're never, ever going to get noise below 1lsb
[23:00] <daveake> Anyway, unless it's critical you get the absolute best resolution, add a bit of headroom otherwise if the voltage is higher (e.g. you run from a PSU in testing) you won't be measuring the actual voltage
[23:01] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[23:01] <daveake> Also, I suggest you don't use the default 3.3V reference
[23:01] <Lunar_Lander> the reason he suggested that was that I told him that the SFE balloon had a 1:10 divider
[23:01] <Lunar_Lander> and he said that is giving away lots of resolution
[23:02] <daveake> Because when the battery voltage is low, your 3.3V may go down a bit and if you're using it as a reference you will again not be measuring correctly
[23:02] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[23:02] <Lunar_Lander> so AREF must be fed by something?
[23:02] <daveake> see the voltage reference reference I gave earlier
[23:02] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[23:02] <Lunar_Lander> the mega has a 1.1 and 2.56 V built in
[23:03] <Lunar_Lander> we only have to call it, right?
[23:03] <daveake> see the voltage reference reference I gave earlier
[23:03] <daveake> Sorry, yes
[23:03] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[23:03] <daveake> But really, those links took me 5 secs max each to find
[23:03] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[23:04] <Lunar_Lander> sorry :(
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[23:04] <Lunar_Lander> OK if I use the other reference, I have to pay attention to the other analogue devices too
[23:05] <Lunar_Lander> which is only the Honeywell humidity sensor so far
[23:05] <Lunar_Lander> but maybe later I'll have a AXDL accelrometer which is also analogue
[23:06] <daveake> You can switch references if you need
[23:06] <daveake> But I'd probably put in potential dividers to get them all to the same range
[23:08] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[23:08] <Lunar_Lander> for the HIH we need a voltage follower
[23:08] <Lunar_Lander> so working with an opamp there
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[23:10] <Lunar_Lander> actually that is one of two options
[23:10] <Lunar_Lander> the other is buying the HIH-5030 from Farnell or another shop
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[23:15] <Lunar_Lander> daveake, one last thing maybe for tonight
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[23:15] <Lunar_Lander> earlier I told how I tried to include an LED to flash when the arduino keys the NTX2
[23:16] <daveake> ok
[23:16] <Lunar_Lander> first I tried to make a function to be called in the loop with if RadioMarkPin = HIGH, RTTY_BLUELED (that was my LED pin) HIGH
[23:16] <Lunar_Lander> and also an else statement to turn it off
[23:17] <Lunar_Lander> when I did that, the LED worked but on dl-fldigi one of the two lines disappeared
[23:17] <Lunar_Lander> then I removed the function and just added the LED on and off stuff to rtty_txbit
[23:17] <Lunar_Lander> do you have an idea why the first way failed?
[23:18] <daveake> Not without seeing the code no
[23:18] <daveake> But probably you got the if then else bit wrong so it was only doing the LED
[23:19] <daveake> Right, I'm off, nn
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[23:20] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[23:20] <Lunar_Lander> thanks again everyone, SpeedEvil as you are the only one left here
[23:20] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[23:21] <SpeedEvil> :)
[23:23] <Lunar_Lander> good to see that no one of you got angry :)
[23:28] <BrainDamage> if you want anger, join ##electronics and make a stupid uniformed opinion about patents
[23:34] <Lunar_Lander> XD!
[23:34] <SpeedEvil> Please don't, or I'm gonna start quieting.
[23:36] <Lunar_Lander> no
[23:36] <Lunar_Lander> I won't do that
[23:37] <Lunar_Lander> but I like to check out Google Patents from time to time
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[00:00] --- Tue Jul 10 2012