highaltitude.log.20120703

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[02:40] <markdownunder> morning
[02:59] <Darkside> hey markdownunder
[02:59] <markdownunder> hi - what are people using for handhelds when tracking ?
[03:00] <Darkside> you mean just for comms?
[03:00] <markdownunder> i have done some testing and realised that the SPOT messengers don't work too well if they don't land pointing upwards
[03:00] <Darkside> yep
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[03:00] <markdownunder> so i am thinking i need to sort out some sort of directional antenna so I can walk and wave
[03:00] <Darkside> ahh
[03:00] <Darkside> Icom R19
[03:00] <Darkside> wiat
[03:00] <Darkside> R10
[03:00] <Darkside> IC-R10
[03:01] <markdownunder> home made antenna ?
[03:01] <Darkside> a 3-element yagi works
[03:01] <Darkside> either home-made or bought
[03:01] <Darkside> a 3-element yagi is simple enough to make
[03:01] <markdownunder> yep
[03:01] <Darkside> the Icom IC-r10 is nice for direction finding, as it has a variable attenuator knob
[03:02] <Darkside> so as you get closer, you can attenuate the signal, and still get a bearing
[03:02] <markdownunder> just checking ebay...
[03:03] <Darkside> basically you need something that can receive SSB on 70cm
[03:03] <Darkside> not many scanners do that sadly
[03:04] <markdownunder> how old is the r19
[03:04] <Darkside> R10*
[03:04] <Darkside> about 10 years i think
[03:04] <Darkside> they're the best handheld scanner for direction finding
[03:05] <Darkside> and they're a great telemetry receiver too
[03:05] <Darkside> we've done chases with just a laptop and an IC-R10
[03:06] <Darkside> they're a bit hard to find on ebay. just put a watch on for IC-R10
[03:06] <markdownunder> yeah i can't find any at the moment
[03:06] <markdownunder> whats the replacement model
[03:07] <markdownunder> T70 ?
[03:07] <Darkside> R20 probably
[03:07] <Darkside> but its not as good for direction finding
[03:07] <Darkside> it only has a 9-step attenuator, which is too coarse
[03:08] <Darkside> and no, a T70 isn't what you want
[03:08] <Darkside> that only does FM
[03:08] <Darkside> it needs to support sideband receive
[03:08] <markdownunder> hello gumtree http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/doonside/other-stuff-for-sale/icom-ic-r10-communication-receiver/1002682193
[03:09] <Darkside> GET IT
[03:09] <Darkside> thats a really good price
[03:09] <markdownunder> have emailed the dude
[03:09] <Darkside> i paid $250 for mine
[03:09] <Darkside> :P
[03:11] <markdownunder> thanks
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[04:37] <markdownunder> thought of a new way to keep GPS upright : https://www.buygyrobowl.com/
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[11:43] <UpuWork> any of our Dutch members on ?
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[11:44] <UpuWork> Dhr. drs. W.M. Vellema = Dr ?
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[11:50] <kokey> Dhr means 'sir'
[11:50] <kokey> but more as in 'mister' than someone who has been knighted
[11:52] <kokey> while drs. is a doctorandus, which is more like someone with an MSc
[11:52] <UpuWork> ok
[11:52] <UpuWork> thanks
[11:52] <eroomde> doctoranus
[11:52] <eroomde> tee hee hee
[11:53] <kokey> in belgium is seems to mean someone working on their phd
[11:54] <kokey> a shame that dutch is not like a major language or anything, since it would be the easiest one for me to master
[11:55] <eroomde> dutch wag?
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[11:56] <kokey> haha
[11:56] <kokey> no point in impressing the dutch, they can speak all the other languages anyway
[11:56] <eroomde> when you're surrounded by several much biger countries, you have little choice
[11:57] <UpuWork> yeah he or she seems to speak english well
[12:04] <fsphil> a lot of the dutch people I've met spoke better english than I do
[12:15] <Lunar_Lander> pfff, as soon as the IT at University is gone for "training in data privacy" the webmail interface fails
[12:15] <Lunar_Lander> damn
[12:15] <kokey> both belgium and portugal surprised me, I didn't expect much from either, but both countries I find pretty and interesting and in both countries the people were friendly and could speak english and a bunch of other languages well
[12:15] <fsphil> france not so much
[12:15] <kokey> spain not so much either
[12:15] <fsphil> and the uk of course .. we like english too much
[12:15] <kokey> no idea about the italians
[12:16] <Lunar_Lander> fsphil, XD
[12:16] <kokey> czech republic, slovakia, poland and hungary, most people seem to be quite fine with english
[12:16] <Lunar_Lander> I had a funny incident in Prague
[12:16] <Lunar_Lander> we were on like our final class trip before graduation
[12:16] <fsphil> that really could go either way
[12:17] <Lunar_Lander> and then I went to an internet cafe and asked "Do you speak english?"
[12:17] <Lunar_Lander> and he laughed "No, ich spreke Tschechisch!"
[12:17] <Lunar_Lander> (No, I speak Czech"
[12:17] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[12:17] <Lunar_Lander> was a bit funny
[12:17] <Lunar_Lander> of course he spoke english that's why he made fun of it
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[12:18] <Lunar_Lander> and another day I was in a souvenir shop and there were some glasses on a rack behind me and the one guy said "Oh please watch out with your backpack and the glasses, it's very danger!"
[12:19] <fsphil> better english than the kids on our street
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[12:37] <Lunar_Lander> fsphil, ohhh
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[12:42] <kokey> my one friend who lived in hong kong before and now in vietnam, post regular engrish pics from stuff he has seen out and about
[12:43] <BrainDamage> http://www.engrish.com/
[12:44] <fsphil> that website is bad for my health
[12:46] <Darkside> a friend of mine did that in china too
[12:48] <Darkside> http://wil5oneng.blogspot.com.au/
[12:49] <fsphil> it must happen the other way too. the chinese word for ask and kiss are the same, just different tones
[12:50] <daveake> Apparently the slogan "Come alive with Pepsi!" got translated as "Pepsi brings your ancestors back from the dead"
[12:51] <r2x0t> lol
[12:51] <Darkside> loooooool
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[15:44] <jcoxon> hey KT5TK
[15:46] <nigelvh> That is a neat callsign
[15:46] <nigelvh> All forward and backward like
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[15:48] <fsphil> I almost got that with MI6VIM
[15:49] <nigelvh> So close
[15:50] <nick_> Oof
[15:50] <nigelvh> Though throwing in MI6 and VIM isn't too shabby.
[15:50] <nick_> The price of the sensors I want to buy drop by more than half if I can order 10.
[15:51] <nigelvh> I bet it'll drop even more if you buy 100!
[15:51] <nigelvh> That's cheaper right?
[15:51] <nigelvh> ;)
[15:51] <kokey> reminds me of the guy who couldn't resist a bargain, on murders
[15:52] <nick_> It'll drop by a factor of 10 if I can buy 10k
[15:52] <fsphil> the fsa03 gps module used to be nearly half price if you bought two
[15:52] <nigelvh> No way! What a deal!
[15:52] <nick_> But the thing is I already plan to buy 2 now and 2 in the future.
[15:52] <fsphil> I don't think anyone ever bought a single
[15:52] <nick_> Which isn't far off the price of 10 now.
[15:52] <nick_> But I don't have the money for 10 now.
[15:52] <Randomskk> some of the pyrotechnics we use at CUSF for rockets and staging and stuff are almost the same price for 20 as 50
[15:52] <Randomskk> as in, only a couple hundred pounds in it
[15:53] <Randomskk> 30*, even. 30 for £50 each, or 50 for £30 each
[15:53] <Randomskk> "hmmm maybe we'll get 50!"
[15:53] <nigelvh> Exactly
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[16:06] <kokey> would be nice if it worked like that for helium
[16:07] <kokey> unfortunately the marginal cost for that is much higher
[16:07] <nick_> kokey: you're just not buying enough helium
[16:07] <nick_> I wonder what the price was for the LHC's helium.
[16:07] <nick_> "Hello, we'd like some helium"
[16:08] <nick_> "How much?"
[16:08] <nick_> "All of it..."
[16:08] <kokey> I guess if I have my own fracking rig, I can extract a bit of helium from that too
[16:10] <nick_> Oof, I forgot my LHC helium volume stat.
[16:10] <nick_> But it's something like half a year's production.
[16:11] <nick_> I used to use a cryostat that could piss it's way through helium pretty quickly.
[16:11] <nick_> One of thos classic "we'll save money by reusing the cryostat we already have... oops, it crappiness cost us 10 times the saving we made"
[16:12] <kokey> it's like getting old 30-60 CPU systems for free
[16:13] <kokey> and then paying the electricity bill for it
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[16:13] <kokey> how does it use helium, leakage?
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[16:13] <nick_> We'd boil it away.
[16:14] <nick_> Mostly when our crappy cryostat let some air get into the bore of our magnet and the water in it froze and jammed our hall probe system.
[16:14] <nick_> So we'd have to do a heat cycle to get rid of the water.
[16:15] <nick_> Which cost us ~100l of liquid helium
[16:16] <nick_> And a few days of surprisingly expensive student time, since I was working at a different lab and paying expensive hotel and travel cost.s
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[16:18] <nick_> That was another classic mistake.
[16:18] <nick_> "We'll get the student to do it, he's cheap..."
[16:24] <kokey> haha
[16:25] <kokey> you get what you pay for, like when you outsource to India
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[16:29] <nick_> Hey
[16:29] <nick_> I wasn't poor quality.
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[16:30] <nick_> It's just they didn't factor a month or two of hotels into my costs.
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[20:13] <Upu> mail
[20:15] Lunar_Lander (~gd-compto@p54882733.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #highaltitude.
[20:15] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[20:16] <number10> what sort of mail
[20:17] <Upu> mail client :)
[20:17] <Upu> I use launchy
[20:17] <Upu> evening Lunar_Lander
[20:17] <Lunar_Lander> hello Upu
[20:19] <number10> :)
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[20:41] <Lunar_Lander> hi cuddykid
[20:42] <cuddykid> hi Lunar_Lander
[20:43] <Lunar_Lander> how are you?
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[20:59] <nigelvh> Howdy all.
[21:01] <Lunar_Lander> hi nigel
[21:01] <Lunar_Lander> *nigelvh
[21:07] <mattbrejza> Upu: did you use gps power savings in the end?
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[21:32] <nigelvh> How's things lunar_lander
[21:32] <Lunar_Lander> good thanks
[21:32] <Lunar_Lander> I made this up to today http://s.gullipics.com/image/s/n/z/5yvnm1-j928p9-omm9/IMG0172.jpeg
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[21:33] <nigelvh> Looks like a sparkfun arduino clone and a board with some headers and a fet or voltage regulator.
[21:33] <Lunar_Lander> yeah, arduino pro mega 3.3V and on the board you see sockets for the NTX2 and the BMP085 and Upu 's GPS
[21:33] <Lunar_Lander> and a Vreg, yes
[21:33] <nigelvh> Fancy pants dude. You're getting close.
[21:34] <Lunar_Lander> thanks
[21:34] <Lunar_Lander> but does the wire tree look OK or crappy?
[21:35] <nigelvh> Well, it's a pile of wires, so compared to a real PCB (which is what I normally do), it looks messy, but the important part is that it works.
[21:36] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[21:39] <nigelvh> So what are your next steps?
[21:40] <Lunar_Lander> have a look at this http://s.gullipics.com/image/f/j/1/5yvnm1-j92892-wsb6/IMG0176.jpeg
[21:40] <Lunar_Lander> next I want to add the DS18B20
[21:40] <Lunar_Lander> and the humidity sensor
[21:40] <Lunar_Lander> and a voltage measurement device
[21:40] <Lunar_Lander> I think I can fit a voltage divider in the one corner where the regulator is
[21:41] <nigelvh> Makes sense. Where's your antenna connector?
[21:42] <Lunar_Lander> I figured I'll solder in a L/4-length wire at the TX pin
[21:43] <Lunar_Lander> i.e. behind the radio in this picture
[21:44] <nigelvh> K, also make sure you solder a second L/4 wire at a 90 degree angle connected to gnd for the counterpoise
[21:45] <Lunar_Lander> OK, can you explain that to me a bit please?
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[21:46] <nigelvh> So you'll have one wire connected to the RF out pin. That will be L/4 in length. You want to add a second wire, soldered to ground, of the same length, and positioned 90 degrees from the first wire.
[21:46] <nigelvh> Like this: http://highfields-arc.co.uk/beginner/foundation/files/quarterwave.gif
[21:47] <nigelvh> but instead of four, you can get away with one.
[21:48] <Lunar_Lander> OK
[21:49] <Lunar_Lander> what's the effect?
[21:50] <nigelvh> A L/4 radiator will not radiate efficiently without a counterpoise. In short, without the counterpoise the antenna will present a high VSWR which will reflect power back at the transmitter rather than send it out into the aether.
[21:51] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[21:51] <Lunar_Lander> VSWR means something with resistance?
[21:51] <nigelvh> Vertical Standing Wave Ratio
[21:52] <Randomskk> vertical?
[21:52] <nigelvh> That's how I learned it, Could be wron.g
[21:52] <nigelvh> wrong.
[21:52] <Randomskk> voltage I thought
[21:52] <nigelvh> That would probably make more sense
[21:52] <BrainDamage> voltage
[21:52] <Lunar_Lander> thanks
[21:53] <BrainDamage> basically, the wave hits the end of the antenna and goes back interfering with itself
[21:53] <Randomskk> apparently it can very rarely be 'vertical'
[21:53] <nigelvh> Anyway, when the antenna isn't matched to the transmission line or the coax, the RF signal doesn't like to pass through the impedance change and bounces back.
[21:53] <Randomskk> or at least, it appears that way a reasonable amount
[21:53] <Randomskk> but I think voltage is usual
[21:54] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[21:54] <Lunar_Lander> another view http://s.gullipics.com/image/h/u/g/5yvnm1-j929zl-s85n/IMG0180.jpeg
[21:55] <nigelvh> Anyway, the better matched your antenna (generally the closest to 50ohms impedance (though this number is arbitrary)), then the lower the VSWR is, and the less power gets reflected, which means more gets actually radiated.
[21:55] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[21:55] <BrainDamage> if we want to be picky, the antenna also has to adapt the coax impedance to void's impedance :p
[21:55] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[21:56] <Lunar_Lander> why do the antenna connectors always have 50 ohms?
[21:56] <SpeedEvil> They don't.
[21:56] <nigelvh> Because that's what they decided on
[21:56] <SpeedEvil> Some have 75
[21:56] <nigelvh> In reality it could be anything
[21:56] <SpeedEvil> Well - over a range
[21:56] <Randomskk> not a totally arbitary decision
[21:56] <BrainDamage> actually 50 and 75 are an optimum
[21:56] <nigelvh> For example, old tvs often have 300 ohm connectors
[21:56] <SpeedEvil> >a couple of hundred ohms gets tricky to manufacture
[21:56] <Randomskk> it has to be less than the impedance of free space for instance
[21:56] <Randomskk> well...
[21:56] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[21:56] <BrainDamage> 75 minimizes attenutation
[21:57] <SpeedEvil> It's the ratio of the core diameter and the shield - so you have a limited number of ratios that work well
[21:57] <BrainDamage> attenuation*
[21:57] <SpeedEvil> The core gets too thick or too thin
[21:57] <BrainDamage> and 50 iirc maximizes bandwith
[21:57] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[21:57] <Lunar_Lander> that makes sens
[21:57] <Lunar_Lander> +e
[21:57] <BrainDamage> silly propagation modes, TE10
[21:57] <nigelvh> Anyway, radio manufacturers mostly decided 50ohms was a good idea
[21:57] <Randomskk> 77 ohms minimises attenuation, but voltage breakdown in coax limits power handling
[21:58] <Randomskk> which is a maximum at 30 ohms
[21:58] <Randomskk> so 30 ohms can carry the most power, 77 ohms gives the least attenuation...
[21:58] <Randomskk> and 50 ohms is your compromise
[21:58] <SpeedEvil> And .5mm enamelled wire, submerged in low-melt alloy is about 6R
[21:58] <SpeedEvil> (IIRC)
[21:58] <Randomskk> 75 is better for TV/cable reception stuff where you're not fussed about power and are fussed about attenuation
[21:58] <Randomskk> additionally 75 is readily turned to 300 with a 2-1 balun
[21:59] <nigelvh> Also, just to keep things confusing. Remember that these are impedances and not resistances. So if you put a multimeter on some coax, you won't read 50 or 75 ohms.
[21:59] <Randomskk> and 300 is often handy for twin lead
[21:59] <Randomskk> if you had an infinitely long piece of coax, you would
[21:59] <Randomskk> between the shield and the conductor, anyway
[21:59] <BrainDamage> or if you connect your multimeter sufficiently fast
[21:59] <SpeedEvil> nigelvh: you will if it's infinitely long.
[21:59] <BrainDamage> ( and disconnect )
[22:00] <nigelvh> Nobody has infinitely long coax. The real world solves this one.
[22:00] <Randomskk> can be frequency dependent too, for kicks
[22:00] <nigelvh> Yes
[22:00] <nigelvh> Because RF is a bitch
[22:00] Action: SpeedEvil wishes he understood RF better.
[22:00] <BrainDamage> yeah, diff propagation modes = diff characteristic impedance
[22:00] <Randomskk> don't we all, SpeedEvil
[22:00] <SpeedEvil> I want to make a little 200W solid-state microwave oven.
[22:00] <BrainDamage> the best modes are non TEM
[22:00] <Randomskk> silly rf
[22:00] <SpeedEvil> This is ... challenging alas.
[22:01] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[22:01] <nigelvh> Now that we've thoroughly confused you. It's highly recommended to put a counterpoise on your antenna.
[22:01] <Randomskk> yes
[22:01] <Randomskk> definitely do that
[22:01] <Lunar_Lander> OK thanks
[22:02] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:02] <Lunar_Lander> http://s.gullipics.com/image/h/u/g/5yvnm1-j929zl-s85n/IMG0180.jpeg here you can see another view
[22:02] <Lunar_Lander> the LEDs are controlled by Pin 13 of the arduino
[22:02] <BrainDamage> since you're a physicist, this should summarize, it makes a simple harmonic oscillator and adding that makes sure you have a good boundary condition for coupling :p
[22:02] <Lunar_Lander> and they are both on actually because I did not yet shield the ends of the wires
[22:02] <Lunar_Lander> i.e. the solder points touch at the arduino
[22:02] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[22:03] <Lunar_Lander> BrainDamage, yeah :)!
[22:03] <BrainDamage> altough simple is a bit stretched as term here
[22:03] <nigelvh> Simple and RF never go together.
[22:04] <nigelvh> I tend to like to replace 'simple' with 'magic'. That fits really well.
[22:05] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[22:05] <Lunar_Lander> complex numbers!
[22:05] <fsphil> imaginary numbers
[22:06] <Lunar_Lander> spot the difference between image 180 and this one http://s.gullipics.com/image/y/e/5/5yvnm1-j929g3-jhux/IMG0181.jpeg
[22:06] <nigelvh> The other led isn't on.
[22:06] <Lunar_Lander> YES!
[22:06] <Lunar_Lander> :D
[22:07] <nigelvh> Not that it was terribly hard, but I used to work for a company that made hidden object games.
[22:07] <nigelvh> You get good at finding differences.
[22:07] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[22:12] <eroomde> i had a period of soldering smd leds on back to front because i rembered incorrectly their markings
[22:12] <eroomde> alsmo makes you good at seeing if leds are on or off
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[22:15] <Lunar_Lander> yea
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[22:18] <Lunar_Lander> nigelvh, well I want to put the temperature and humidity sensors in the region above the barometer
[22:19] <Lunar_Lander> and then somehow I have to fit SD and cutdown into the remaining corner
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[22:28] <nigelvh> Shouldn't be too hard.
[22:29] <Lunar_Lander> yeah but the SD takes up some space
[22:29] <nigelvh> True
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[22:29] <Lunar_Lander> and the cutdown takes the MOSFET and the screw terminals and the lipoly JST connector
[22:29] <nigelvh> mmhmm
[22:30] <nigelvh> You've got room. Just can't be as spread out as you have been so far.
[22:30] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:32] <Lunar_Lander> btw the MOSFET lines will have a much higher amperage is that a problem to all the other lines?
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[22:35] <nigelvh> It should be fine.
[22:36] <Lunar_Lander> ok
[22:36] <nigelvh> Anyway, time for me to head home. Chat with you all later!
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[00:00] --- Wed Jul 4 2012