highaltitude.log.20120626

[00:44] <griffonbot> Received email: steamfire@gmail.com "Re: [UKHAS] Pressure required to inflate latex balloon?"
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[01:16] <eroomde> the adc chipoid is now all working
[01:16] <eroomde> at last
[01:16] <eroomde> all 5 power supply rails (fecking analogue) finally as they should be
[01:16] <eroomde> weeee
[01:17] <Randomskk> don't you love analogue
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[01:17] <Randomskk> also being at work at 2.17 am from the sounds of it
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[01:29] <eroomde> Randomskk: yes and that
[01:29] <eroomde> wanna get linear actuators vecotring the engine, and pressure readings back from the engine
[01:29] <eroomde> once that, bed
[01:33] <SpeedEvil> I assume you don't get to do hot fires at 2AM? :)
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[01:56] <eroomde> magic smoke :(
[01:56] <eroomde> no, no test fires
[01:56] <Randomskk> :(
[01:56] <Randomskk> did ALL the magic smoke come out?
[01:56] <Randomskk> sometimes only a little
[01:56] <Randomskk> sometimes there's a lot in there
[02:11] <eroomde> it was a lot of it
[02:11] <eroomde> but it was from a diode
[02:11] <eroomde> which gave its life to protect something more expensive
[02:11] <Randomskk> noble
[02:16] <Darkside> hey eroomde
[02:16] <Darkside> do you know much about the curiosity rover parachute?
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[03:25] <eroomde> sun is rising
[03:25] <eroomde> yay
[03:26] <eroomde> Darkside: a little
[03:26] <SpeedEvil> :)
[03:27] <SpeedEvil> Retried the test?
[03:29] <eroomde> i've just resoldered the suspect bits responsible for magic smoke
[03:29] <eroomde> about to plug in
[03:30] <SpeedEvil> Good luck!
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[03:37] <eroomde> it works!
[03:37] <eroomde> actuator doing a nice sinusoid
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[03:40] <eroomde> tv crew arriving in like 3.5hrs
[03:40] <eroomde> this is all so pointless
[03:40] <eroomde> channel 5 ffs
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[03:41] <SpeedEvil> Woo!
[03:41] <SpeedEvil> So it wiggles!
[03:41] <SpeedEvil> Clearly it must therefore fly.
[03:41] <SpeedEvil> Good luck with the TV thingy.
[03:41] <SpeedEvil> Are you on stage?
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[03:58] <eroomde> sunrise!
[03:58] <eroomde> it's nice here
[03:58] <eroomde> pretty
[03:58] <eroomde> SpeedEvil: i hope not
[03:58] <eroomde> i'm a bit tired and shaggy
[03:59] <eroomde> it's presented by dick strawbridge, i think it'll be mainly him
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[05:51] <eroomde> there are some sleepy faces here
[05:52] <eroomde> but the engine is vectoring and the fuel and oxidiser valves are wiggling and it looks rockety
[05:53] <eroomde> james keeps talking about how a 3-phase soldering iron would be good
[05:53] <Upu> when does it fire ?
[06:04] <eroomde> this afternoon
[06:04] <eroomde> unless we fall asleep before
[06:04] <Upu> good luck
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[06:19] <eroomde> thanks
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[07:14] <eroomde> just had a fryup
[07:14] <eroomde> lovely but flirting with coma
[07:15] <eroomde> i think just caffeine from now on until the whole ordeal is over
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[07:19] <Darkside> ?
[07:22] <eroomde> yeah i'm not sure either
[07:26] <fsphil> no sleepy?
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[07:32] <eroomde> fsphil: not yet
[07:32] <eroomde> hoping to have tomorrow morning off though
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[07:44] <griffonbot> Received email: Neil Baker "Re: [UKHAS] Pressure required to inflate latex balloon?"
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[08:10] <eroomde> the dick is here!
[08:10] <eroomde> ok will report back later today
[08:13] <fsphil> it's his fault I installed PV panels
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[08:33] <jcoxon> morning all
[08:39] <UpuWork> morning
[08:39] <fsphil> mornin'
[08:42] <gonzo__> so bacon butties are a HAB tradition, rocketry goes one better and the full english!
[08:45] <fsphil> I think bacon butties win
[08:46] <fsphil> esp. if they're well done, nice and crispy
[08:48] <gonzo__> I tend to agree
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[09:08] <daveake> Did someone mention bacon butties? :-) http://tinyurl.com/3rdafg3
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[09:10] <Darkside> daveake: whats the joke?
[09:10] <Darkside> oh
[09:10] <Darkside> bacon
[09:11] <MrScienceMan> mmmm bacn
[09:11] <gonzo__> I bet half of us have that word as an alert in the chat client
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[09:27] <UpuWork> lol
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[10:33] <cuddykid> http://habhub.org/predict/#!/uuid=98ba3200789fc94fac4b4f97fa3bd5a3cd208ed6 - not good
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[10:35] <nick_> You don't like Sheffield?
[10:37] <cuddykid> I'd rather not have to venture 1/2 way across the country :P
[10:38] <UpuWork> coming my way
[10:38] <cuddykid> this time last year I picked it up ~5 miles from launch site!
[10:41] <eroomde> nearly assembled and ready
[10:42] <eroomde> dick doesn't talk, his moustache resonates and he modulates by varying the stiffness of his upper lip
[10:42] <UpuWork> lol
[10:45] <fsphil> hah
[10:45] <gonzo__> I expect most habers with a car would be happy to drive 20/30miles to retrieve another's balloon
[10:46] <gonzo__> woudl be interesting to have a map of recovery zones.
[10:48] <daveake> cuddykid One of mine was predicted to land in Belgium but that didn't stop me :)
[10:50] <gonzo__> yep made a day trip of it. Wasn't it still returned by another habber anyway?
[10:50] <daveake> It was. I didn't think it very likely I'd find it given that the last known position was halfway across the channel at 24km up!
[10:51] <daveake> Looking back, wish we'd just got a hotel for the night in Bruges, then done a search the next day. Oh well.
[10:52] <UpuWork> I wouldn't even start planning until Thursday cuddykid
[10:52] <UpuWork> weather is random as hell
[10:52] <cuddykid> daveake: haha :P
[10:52] <daveake> Regardless, it was a great day, held a record for a while, and it was recovered anyway
[10:52] <cuddykid> UpuWork: yeah, I'm going to keep an eye on it :)
[10:53] <cuddykid> that reminds me - need to get balloon ordered just in case!
[10:53] <gonzo__> out of interest, I've just brouught a gps/gsm tracker for £31 off ebay. Seems interesting as a 2ndry tracker for landing
[10:53] <daveake> I'm surprised no-one has mentioned that I can aim for and hit Belgium, yet have managed to aim for and miss the UK 3 times ....
[10:53] <cuddykid> gonzo__: they're great - saved me a few times!
[10:53] <cuddykid> daveake: lol
[10:54] <gonzo__> sods law trumps all dave
[10:56] <cuddykid> hmm, might go for an 800g Hwoyee
[10:56] <cuddykid> WillDuckworth's 500g one flew well
[10:59] <cuddykid> nah 1000g it is :D
[11:09] <daveake> cuddykid: If you do fly, do you need a hand?
[11:09] <cuddykid> daveake: if you're free and want to come up you're more than welcome! :D
[11:09] <cuddykid> thanks :)
[11:10] <daveake> np, should be free, let me know what you decide
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[11:20] <cuddykid> great, will do
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[11:28] <cuddykid> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/POLYSTYRENE-Glass-Wine-Bottle-Postal-Carriers-Boxes-x1-/160773184970?pt=UK_Packaging_Materials&hash=item256ed41dca#ht_1600wt_1060 looks interesting for a payload container
[11:29] <gonzo__> especially if you get a bottle of wine too
[11:29] <cuddykid> :P
[11:29] <gonzo__> could use it as the reward offer for recovery
[11:30] <cuddykid> good idea!
[11:33] <cuddykid> http://www.jbpackaging.co.uk/1-5kg-polybox/11008SAM.html what I ordered last time
[11:36] <cuddykid> a bit too big though, does anyone have a link to small poly boxes?
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[11:53] <gonzo__> I made my pico box from 'styrene sheet, stuck with silicone sealant. Not recommended, it adds to the weight horribly
[11:53] <UpuWork> I know daveake is very fond of his balls
[11:53] <UpuWork> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Polystyrene-Styrofoam-Modelling-Balls-5-pcs-x-120mm-/270928835336?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3f149df308
[11:53] <gonzo__> ooer
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[12:20] <LBCran_> Hello
[12:29] <SpeedEvil> hey
[12:32] <LBCran_> Hello there
[12:32] <LBCran_> Working on some estimations for CAA
[12:33] <SpeedEvil> As an applicant, or someone that's deciding on them?
[12:33] <LBCran_> Applicant
[12:33] <SpeedEvil> Aww.
[12:34] <LBCran_> Needing to give the height and diameter of the balloon, but the guy who developed this thing was pretty non-specific.
[12:34] <SpeedEvil> At burst, you mean?
[12:34] <Randomskk> developed what thing?
[12:34] <SpeedEvil> What altitude?
[12:34] <SpeedEvil> That too.
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[12:35] <LBCran_> Well it has a "20km design altitude" but I believe it exceeds that
[12:35] <LBCran_> by how far I'm not sure
[12:35] <SpeedEvil> Define thing.
[12:36] <LBCran_> 1.5Kg payload on 1Kg balloon with 0.5kg Helium
[12:36] <Randomskk> no, "thing" as in "the guy who developed this thing"
[12:37] <Randomskk> also http://cusf.co.uk/calc
[12:37] <LBCran_> As in ongoing university project
[12:39] <Randomskk> can't really help you with that thing without any idea of what it is or what it's doing, but that link I posted should be enough for you to work out a launch diameter and height.
[12:40] <LBCran_> We've been fiddling a bit with that today
[12:45] <Randomskk> depending on what the caa require it should be reasonably straightforward to find the diameter
[12:46] <Randomskk> not clear what you mean by height -- the total vertical size of the entire thing including payload etc, or the altitude the balloon reaches, or what?
[12:46] <LBCran_> yeah vertical height
[12:47] <LBCran_> of the balloon
[12:47] <LBCran_> and payload sorry
[12:47] <LBCran_> only unsure thing we have now is the distance the radar reflector should be from the payload
[12:47] <SpeedEvil> Can you explain in detail what you're doing.
[12:48] <SpeedEvil> In general a radar reflector is not required except for extremely large payloads.
[12:48] <LBCran_> we've got a 1.5kg payload and a reflector anyway.
[12:48] <Randomskk> in general the CAA don't require estimates of balloon diameter or height
[12:49] <LBCran_> essentially some students last year built the balloon and we're just finalising it
[12:49] <Randomskk> what uni are you at?
[12:49] <LBCran_> they dont?
[12:49] <LBCran_> its in the form though?
[12:49] <Laurenceb> has anyone looked at improving the descent predictor?
[12:50] <Laurenceb> from my experience the drag coefficient varies a lot, especially at very high altitudes
[12:50] <UpuWork> LBCran can I be blunt unless you understand every last line of code on that tracker and test it you're going to have big issues
[12:50] <UpuWork> did you try it outside ?
[12:51] <Randomskk> LBCran_: oh, that. I woudln't be too fussed...
[12:51] <Randomskk> Laurenceb: well volunteered
[12:55] <LBCran_> We did ... then the battery ran out on the receiver since we'd spent all day testing with it. plan to test it later today again.
[12:55] <LBCran_> I will rework the code on a spare board before the test date
[12:58] <UpuWork> ok
[12:58] <LBCran_> Need to program the cut off and build a relay board for it before then to do the cut anyway
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[13:09] <Laurenceb> hehe
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[13:19] <LBCran_> gotta go guys, catch up a bit later
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[13:21] <UpuWork> thats not going to end well
[13:22] <nick_> What isn't?
[13:22] <UpuWork> That Cranfield University project
[13:27] <Darkside> tl;dr version?
[13:27] <UpuWork> gets undocumented 2 year old unlaunched payload and tries to make it work
[13:27] <Darkside> oh dear
[13:27] <UpuWork> out of the box has 2 errors and doesn't seem to transmit standard telemetry
[13:27] <UpuWork> TX lines are RV and the shift is 900 this does not bode well for important stuff like padding errors etc
[13:28] <nick_> I didn't get what the guy was trying to do.
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[13:28] <UpuWork> also the wiring is loose
[13:29] <UpuWork> but apart from all that rock and roll
[13:29] <nick_> Did he post a link or something?
[13:30] <daveake> <UpuWork> I know daveake is very fond of his balls
[13:30] <daveake> lol
[13:30] <UpuWork> pink balls
[13:30] <daveake> cuddykid If I come up at eh w/e and want some balls, I have some spares :)
[13:31] <UpuWork> you can get arrested for that daveake
[13:32] <daveake> I shall take precautions
[13:32] <gonzo__> well put them back when you are done
[13:33] <gonzo__> (though if you were done, you'd havo none at all)
[13:33] <daveake> :)
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[13:40] <LBCran_> hello again
[13:40] <Laurenceb> its ok cuddykid is old enough
[13:40] <daveake> lol
[13:40] <fsphil> spaceballs again?
[13:40] <cuddykid> lol Laurenceb
[13:40] <Darkside> that was a great movie
[13:40] <cuddykid> thanks daveake :D
[13:40] <fsphil> it really was
[13:41] <daveake> LBCran_ You asked earlier about the balloon size on the CAA form. I just put down something like "approx 1.5m at launch"
[13:41] <LBCran_> yeah thats what the documentation I've got says.
[13:41] <LBCran_> so is it okay to leave those blank instead though?
[13:41] <Darkside> ok bedtime for me..
[13:41] <daveake> Leave what blank?
[13:41] <Darkside> nn all
[13:42] <daveake> nn DS
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[13:42] <LBCran_> the length width columns
[13:42] <nick_> LBCran_: what are you trying to launch?
[13:42] <LBCran_> 1.5kg payload 1kg balloon
[13:42] <daveake> Yes I just cross those 2 out
[13:42] <LBCran_> trying to find the right CAA guidelines as well. Air traffic here pointed me at CAP 736 but it doesn't seem appropiate.
[13:43] <LBCran_> Toy Balloons its for apparently, I dont think this applies to it
[13:44] <nick_> I mean, what is your payload?
[13:45] <LBCran_> Its just a testbed
[13:45] <LBCran_> so GPS, temperature and humidity sensors
[13:45] <LBCran_> radio
[13:45] <LBCran_> thats it really
[13:45] <fsphil> why so heavy?
[13:46] <LBCran_> + camera and a very high battery load
[13:46] <LBCran_> I didn't do the thesis and the calculations
[13:46] <LBCran_> but apparently it needs 11 batteries onboard.
[13:46] <fsphil> eek
[13:47] <Darkside> the hell?
[13:47] <Darkside> use lithium AAs
[13:47] <Darkside> it shouldn't be that heavy...
[13:47] <LBCran_> If I did that and changed the mass I'd have to redo the calculations, and this isn't my thesis
[13:47] <Darkside> but 1.5kg...
[13:47] <Darkside> thats ridiculous
[13:47] <nick_> LBCran_: Why does such a simple thing take multiple years?
[13:47] <SpeedEvil> haha
[13:48] <LBCran_> insurance
[13:48] <Darkside> seriously. 1.5kg is seriously heavy for a telemetry payload + camera
[13:48] <LBCran_> The university didn't want to run without insurance, and no one knew how to insure something no one normally insures
[13:48] <LBCran_> so it never happened lol
[13:48] <Darkside> if it was, say, a Canon 7D then i might understand
[13:48] <Darkside> it's not a canon 7d is it?
[13:48] <LBCran_> powershot If i remember right running Lua code
[13:48] <Darkside> yeah
[13:48] <Darkside> that should be a 500g payload mx
[13:48] <Darkside> max
[13:48] <Darkside> including telemetry
[13:49] <fsphil> hadie is usually about 550g
[13:49] <fsphil> and that's with 6x AAs
[13:49] <nick_> LBCran_: got any pictures of it?
[13:49] <LBCran_> But like I said, if I adjust the weight everything is going to have to be recalculated, and its already been built.
[13:49] <Darkside> why would it have to be recalculated?
[13:49] <LBCran_> not at the moment
[13:49] <Darkside> you put more or less gas in?
[13:49] <LBCran_> it is huge though
[13:49] <Darkside> what kind of batteries is it using?
[13:50] <LBCran_> AA's
[13:50] <fsphil> you may have to distribute hard hats to a good portion of the population :)
[13:50] <LBCran_> haha
[13:50] <Darkside> LBCran_: at least it's using that..
[13:50] <LBCran_> well i think the way it got decided was that it needed to be heavy enough to carry a decent payload in future
[13:50] <nick_> No
[13:50] <LBCran_> so you could optimise the system and put the weight over to other things.
[13:50] <nick_> It needs to be light enough to carry a decent payload
[13:51] <LBCran_> I mean without changing equipment.
[13:51] <daveake> My first payload was 1kg, and that had 2 cameras and a backup GSM tracker. As Darkside says, a single camera + tracker should be 500g or less. I've managed one in 200g or so.
[13:52] <LBCran_> If I was designing from scratch that'd be great, but I'm not lol
[13:52] <daveake> true!
[13:52] <nick_> LBCran_: why not?
[13:52] <nick_> How much time do you have to do this?
[13:52] <LBCran_> ah thats the problem you see
[13:52] <Darkside> i'm very sure you could reduce weight
[13:52] <LBCran_> we've got 5 weeks. so the CAA form has to be off, basically now
[13:53] <nick_> Is that a problem?
[13:53] <daveake> Besides the weight, I'd be a bit wary (well, a lot actually) flying a hand-me-down tracker that doesn't "just work"
[13:53] <Darkside> very wary
[13:53] <LBCran_> we already have the balloons, the software needs modifying and more radio testing done. Honestly with the other stuff needed there isnt time to redo the design.
[13:53] <LBCran_> This isn't my primary project. I've got a main thesis to do.
[13:53] <Darkside> weigh the efford if having to redo the design to the loss if the system fails and you don't get your payload back
[13:54] <nick_> How long does it take to design, build and test the basic payload?
[13:54] <LBCran_> No idea, I didn't do it.
[13:54] <LBCran_> I'm just supposed to test it and get it in the air really.
[13:54] <nick_> I was aiming that at someone like daveake who has made a few.
[13:54] <Darkside> if you have some basic idea what you're doing you can knock up a working payload on veroboard within a day
[13:54] <LBCran_> oooh
[13:54] <LBCran_> sorry lol
[13:55] <Darkside> arduino nano + gps + ntx2
[13:55] <UpuWork> I asked this before LBCran but what is your main thesis ? If you're wanting to launch some experiment why not see if someone with a known working tracker can asssit
[13:55] <LBCran_> You mean have someone else from UKHAS track the balloon?
[13:55] <LBCran_> I don't think that'd be a problem
[13:55] <Darkside> LBCran_: no, fly an existing, known working telemetry beacon
[13:55] <nick_> Or put your real payload on their balloon?
[13:56] <LBCran_> oooh
[13:56] <Darkside> or that
[13:56] <UpuWork> talk to us
[13:56] <LBCran_> I think the idea is to prove the system we have works though.
[13:56] <UpuWork> it doesn't I can tell you that and you've not launched it yet :)
[13:56] <nick_> Or disprove it!
[13:56] <LBCran_> lol or disprove maybe
[13:56] <nick_> You could write a great thesis ripping the design to shreds.
[13:57] <daveake> nick_ Well, I first thought about doing a HAB in Feb 2011, and my first flight was July 2011
[13:57] <LBCran_> my own thesis is on Satellite refurbishment and recycling
[13:57] <LBCran_> so its a totally different subject lol
[13:57] <nick_> daveake: but how much time could you really spend on it?
[13:57] <nick_> When you are full time on a project you can really kick things off...
[13:57] <nick_> So why are you launching this thing?
[13:58] <nick_> Why isn't the guy who made it launching it?
[13:58] <daveake> A lot of the time I took was finding out about the non-tracking stuff ... predictions, how to fill, n different designs for the payload box, CHDK, etc etc
[13:59] <daveake> From that point of view there's a lot to learn
[13:59] <Darkside> as i said, with a bit of knowledge, a simple gps tracker can be whipped up really easily
[13:59] <Darkside> there isn't much to them
[13:59] <daveake> As for building a tracker from scratch, anyone with a bit of s/w knowledge shouldn't take long with the guides that Upu has put up
[13:59] <nick_> (or bought pretty cheaply)
[14:01] <Darkside> as a rule, people here don't sell pre-built trackers
[14:01] <Darkside> making your own is a rite of passage, if you will
[14:01] <LBCran_> guy who made it has since left, hes finished his degree here
[14:01] <Darkside> but we will certainly assist people in building their own
[14:02] <nick_> Doesn't UpuWork sell a working tracker?
[14:02] <UpuWork> negative
[14:02] <nick_> If he does it would definitely make sense to buy one and put it on the payload along iwth the probably non functioning one you inherited.
[14:03] <Darkside> he sells parts to build one
[14:03] <UpuWork> deliberately not done that as I'm with Darkside
[14:03] <UpuWork> if I do that people won't understand exactly whats going on and that will never end well
[14:03] <Darkside> radio + gps + arduino + power = simple tracker
[14:03] <Darkside> there really isn't much to one
[14:03] <nick_> UpuWork: what's the board that you sell then?
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[14:04] <Darkside> nick_: he sells breakouts for radio modules and gpses
[14:04] <UpuWork> I don't sell a board
[14:04] <nick_> It just takes in data over serial and transmits from the radio?
[14:04] <UpuWork> I sell radio modules
[14:04] <nick_> Oh, you just showed pics of one you made?
[14:04] <UpuWork> GPS modules
[14:04] <UpuWork> I make them
[14:04] <UpuWork> I don't sell them :)
[14:04] <nick_> OK
[14:05] <UpuWork> though I'll take the compliment that they look sellable :)
[14:05] <Darkside> nick_: he sells stuff that we know works for ballooning
[14:05] <Darkside> gps modules that are known to work >18km (with the right code)
[14:05] <Darkside> radio modules that are commonly used amongst the HAB scene
[14:05] <Darkside> that kind of thing
[14:05] <nick_> You just sell breakout boards?
[14:05] <UpuWork> yep and made up breakout boards
[14:05] <Darkside> with gps modules on them too
[14:06] <nick_> and the module to attach them to
[14:06] <UpuWork> I appreciate some people may struggle with the soldering
[14:06] <nick_> OK, I guess I must have mistaken some of your pics for something that you do/will sell.
[14:06] <nick_> The red tracker board
[14:07] <LBCran_> Darkside, thats exactly what we have. radio + gps + arduino + power.
[14:07] <Darkside> LBCran_: not arduino
[14:07] <Darkside> arduino nano
[14:07] <LBCran_> oooh
[14:07] <Darkside> SOLDERED connections
[14:07] <LBCran_> we're using an uno board.
[14:07] <Darkside> yeah
[14:07] <Darkside> bad
[14:07] <Darkside> move it and it'll fail
[14:07] <Darkside> when it hits the ground, it'll fail
[14:07] <LBCran_> yeah I made some proper sockets for it yesterday
[14:08] <LBCran_> as everything was just pushed in place through the sockets on the board and that'd never stay working
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[14:08] <LBCran_> Is there a CAA document that directly applies to these balloons? I can't seem to find one.
[14:08] <LBCran_> Aside from the permission form.
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[14:25] <eroomde> had to abandon for today
[14:25] <SpeedEvil> No TV?
[14:25] <eroomde> rain then ignition detect (a combo of igniter current and chamber pressure) seemed to stop working
[14:25] <eroomde> so they're gonna come back tomorrow
[14:25] <eroomde> sucks a bit
[14:25] <eroomde> but we're all running on vapours
[14:25] <eroomde> but we're massively nearly there
[14:26] <SpeedEvil> :)
[14:26] <eroomde> we've built the damn thing in like 36 hrs
[14:26] <SpeedEvil> Was it your fault?
[14:26] <SpeedEvil> Good progress anyway!
[14:26] <SpeedEvil> So, extrapolating - launch in August.
[14:26] <SpeedEvil> :)
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[14:29] <eroomde> lol yes perhaps
[14:29] <eroomde> um possibly my fault
[14:29] <eroomde> we cba to trace the ignition detect fault now
[14:29] <Upu> LBCran http://ukhas.org.uk/general:restrictions_legality
[14:29] <eroomde> but i designed most of the pcbs on it so it could well be my fault
[14:30] <SpeedEvil> But stuff built rapidly can't really be blamed
[14:30] <UpuWork> time for some sleep eroomde ?
[14:30] <SpeedEvil> :)
[14:33] <NickB1> Hey Upu
[14:34] <UpuWork> hi nick
[14:35] <NickB1> just received the order for ada-systems :)
[14:35] <UpuWork> oh it came from you :)
[14:35] <UpuWork> glad to hear it got there
[14:35] <UpuWork> Enough to make a few payloads there
[14:36] <NickB1> yeah but its for work
[14:36] <UpuWork> ah ok
[14:36] <UpuWork> That was quick I only posted it at 5pm on Friday
[14:36] <NickB1> working on a prototype for a telemetry setup
[14:36] <NickB1> using rfm22b in normal operation
[14:37] <UpuWork> ok fair enough
[14:44] Nick change: stilldavid_ -> stilldavid
[14:52] <nick_> eroomde: what are they meant to film you doing?
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[15:00] <eroomde> nick_: firing our little after-hours hovering rocket
[15:01] <eroomde> a thing the 3 of us have been working on in gaps between proper work
[15:01] <eroomde> with lots of scrounged bits and bobs
[15:01] <nick_> Hovering rocket?
[15:01] <nick_> What's that?
[15:02] <eroomde> takes off, hovers for a bit, lands
[15:02] <nick_> Got any pics?
[15:02] <eroomde> so it's basically a liquid propellant rocket with a chamber that you can vector with linear actuators
[15:02] <eroomde> yeah andy just took a pic of james and I and gyroc
[15:03] <NickB1> cool!
[15:03] <eroomde> lemme upoad
[15:03] <nick_> Is there a point for this other than fun?
[15:03] <nick_> Landing on another planet or something?
[15:03] <eroomde> well this specific project is more just in house fun
[15:04] <eroomde> but it'd be a great test bed for a lot of ideas we have
[15:04] <eroomde> which will make good products
[15:04] <eroomde> and being able to invite customers over and have it take off, hover infront our our rocket test facilities, then land, is a ncie advert
[15:05] <eroomde> forgive our apprearences as we have all done allnighters
[15:05] <eroomde> so have been working solidaly since 9am yesterday
[15:05] <eroomde> http://i.imgur.com/Cy1Ok.jpg
[15:06] <eroomde> gyroc is bolted to its vertical test stand which is the ugly steel box-section thing
[15:06] <eroomde> you can see the combustion chamber and the two black linear actuators
[15:07] <eroomde> these are the actuators in closeup http://www.flickr.com/photos/69676024@N07/7432603668/in/photostream
[15:07] <eroomde> and here is the same engine ebing tested horizontally http://www.flickr.com/photos/69676024@N07/7431989820/in/photostream
[15:07] <nick_> So this is basically a rocket you can point in real time?
[15:08] <eroomde> yeah
[15:09] <eroomde> but it's also v throttleable
[15:09] <eroomde> so you can just match gravity and stand still at a point in the air
[15:09] <nick_> How do you controll the power?
[15:10] <eroomde> we have made valves for the fuel and oxidiser lines
[15:10] <nick_> What are they?
[15:10] <eroomde> normal RC servos mated to valves
[15:11] <eroomde> the valves are normally hand operated, one is needle and one is plunge
[15:11] <nick_> I mean, what are the fuel and oxidiser?
[15:11] <eroomde> ah, the fuel is IsoPropyl alohol (IPA)
[15:11] <eroomde> and the oxidiser is N2O
[15:11] <eroomde> both are easy to get, quite cheap, decently performing and storable
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[15:13] <nick_> And today was meant to be the first test of this thing hovering?
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[15:14] <eroomde> nope just static (held down) but with vecotring
[15:14] <eroomde> first time we've lit up all the pcbs
[15:14] <eroomde> got them talking
[15:14] <eroomde> pressure sensors calibrated etc
[15:14] <eroomde> and just loads and loads of cable making
[15:14] <nick_> What is the brain of the operation?
[15:15] <eroomde> basicaly turning it from some individual subsystems into something that can hopefully take off
[15:15] <eroomde> the flight computer?
[15:15] <eroomde> it's an atmega2560
[15:16] <eroomde> that just does everything in a 100hz loop
[15:18] <nick_> Where everything is measuring it's position, orientation and acceleration then calculating how to change the rocket power and direction and implementing that?
[15:18] <eroomde> yeah
[15:18] <nick_> So brain wise it's a lot like a drone?
[15:18] <nick_> quadrotor or whatever.
[15:18] <eroomde> so basically there is an atmega2560 board with a load of connectors on and an sd card
[15:18] <eroomde> that's the thing at the top
[15:19] <eroomde> then there are lots of pcbs that connecto to that board
[15:19] <eroomde> inertial - 3 axis gyro accel magneto
[15:19] <eroomde> gps board
[15:19] <eroomde> radio board (xbee)
[15:19] <eroomde> board that can drive 4 high current servos
[15:19] <eroomde> 2 boards that do the actuators with potentiometer feedback
[15:20] <Randomskk> why an avr for main flight computer?
[15:20] <eroomde> and a data aquisition board with is a board with a 200ksps ADC which does 8ch simultaneous samping, where we've put some nice instrumentation amp front end with high order anti-alias filters than have constant group delay (bessel), and precision +/-10v, 12V, 5V etc supplies
[15:21] <eroomde> thats so we can get really good data off the various pressure sensors
[15:21] <eroomde> of which with have combustion chamber pressure, fuel and oxidiser injector pressures, tank chamber pressures and a few other things
[15:23] <eroomde> a few channels for theromocouples too
[15:23] <eroomde> tho those are slower sampling just cos of time constants
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[15:28] <nick_> I'll echo Randomskk's question. Why are you running an avr?
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[15:29] <eroomde> oh because it's plenty for the time being
[15:29] <eroomde> it's hardly stretched
[15:30] <eroomde> and we ca do avrs in our sleep
[15:30] <eroomde> the interesting stuff are all the daughter boards
[15:30] <eroomde> we can trivially upgrade the processor if we need
[15:30] <daveake> "avrs in sleep" ... which is just as well :)
[15:30] <eroomde> but also remember that scout rockets could routinely get into orbit with a paper tape control system
[15:31] <eroomde> so needing a bigger cpu is more a reflection of one's coding abilities than one might like to admit
[15:31] <nick_> How does the flight computer talk to the daughter boards?
[15:31] <eroomde> often, anyway
[15:31] <Randomskk> that's like saying assembler is turing complete so using high level languages is a reflection of your coding ability
[15:31] <UpuWork> is that why I need an overclocked extreme 4Ghz i7 ? :)
[15:31] <eroomde> depends on the specific thing
[15:32] <eroomde> so, my big push which i am supper happy with was complete isolation
[15:32] <eroomde> so we use the ADUM chips from analog devices on most of the daugher boards
[15:32] <eroomde> that completely gets rid of ground loop problems
[15:32] <Randomskk> handy
[15:32] <daveake> I once worked with a programmer who defended the slowness of his program with "by the time it gets released, computers will be fast enough to run it"
[15:33] <eroomde> Randomskk: not so much really, it just means that often a PIC loop that is well designed will beat something more complicated with more margin
[15:33] <eroomde> PID*
[15:33] <Randomskk> I have no issue with using an AVR if it's the thing for the job
[15:34] <Randomskk> but just because it can in theory be done on one doesn't mean you might not have an easier time or more flexibility with a different chip, in some cases
[15:34] <eroomde> it's just the thing for this, for now. it can happily handle 100hz control loops, reading sensor and logging stuff. really honestly plnty
[15:34] <Randomskk> yea, fair enough
[15:34] <Randomskk> looking forward to seeing results of it hovering on rocket power :P
[15:34] <eroomde> me too!
[15:34] <eroomde> but not today
[15:35] <Randomskk> oh well
[15:35] <eroomde> nick_: so to continue with your question, often just isolated spi
[15:36] <eroomde> or isolated uart
[15:36] <Randomskk> ugh, one of the cusf potential sponsor's PA phoned me early last week to schedule a phone call with the guy
[15:36] <Randomskk> today at 11.45
[15:36] <Randomskk> nothing.
[15:36] <eroomde> nice
[15:36] <Randomskk> his PA also does all his emails
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[15:37] <nick_> What is isolated spi?
[15:37] <eroomde> spi
[15:38] <eroomde> but done with isolators
[15:38] <nick_> Just so you don't get any cross talk from the two systems?
[15:38] <eroomde> so there isn't an electrical connection between the master board and the daughter board
[15:38] <eroomde> except all the boards have power and ground from the same point (star)
[15:38] <eroomde> yeah it helps prevent current loops and things
[15:38] <nick_> Where do you put the isolator?
[15:38] <eroomde> on the daugher board
[15:38] <eroomde> it's a chip
[15:39] <nick_> Yeah
[15:39] <eroomde> +VinA, GNDA, In1A,In2A,Out1A,Out2A
[15:39] <eroomde> then the same but 'B' on the other side
[15:40] <eroomde> and some kind of transformer and signal conditioning inside the chip itself, you can treat it as transparent basically unless you want really high speeds
[15:41] <eroomde> also all the cable are screened and the screens are termianted into wires that are part of the connectors on the board
[15:41] <eroomde> that helps with noise too
[15:41] <eroomde> we use them on things like the pressure sensors, as the signals are v small
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[15:43] <Randomskk> do you attach the screens to ground at both ends or just one, and directly or capacitively or what?
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[15:44] <eroomde> it depends on the app
[15:45] <eroomde> so on the pressure sensors we screen at both ends (the screen is attached to the body)
[15:45] <eroomde> but usually on any weak signalled electrical thing just at one end
[15:46] <eroomde> and on chunky moonkey things like actuator power leads, both ends
[15:46] <eroomde> we don't have to float the screens at a common mode voltage or anything for this app, bandwiths are conveniently much lower than anything that needs that
[15:48] <Randomskk> cool
[15:48] <Randomskk> sounds like a fun project :P
[15:49] <eroomde> just trying to keep noisy things like pwm to actuators under control
[15:49] <eroomde> as delicate things like pressure sensors have to run alongside them
[15:49] <LBCran_> Do you tend to apply for small timeframes in the CAA form, or just apply for 9:00 19:00 or something for a wide enough window?
[15:50] <LBCran_> Currently talking with ATC and wondering the better way to do this.
[15:50] <eroomde> i think people seem to often get away with a sort of half day chunk
[15:50] <eroomde> say, until 2pm on a sat
[15:50] <LBCran_> right so 9-2 is a more common sort of arrangement?
[15:51] <Randomskk> or whole weekends
[15:51] <eroomde> i'd have a go at asking for a whole weekend sure
[15:51] <LBCran_> we have a weekend in our window, but I think thats going to end up worse for where we are.
[15:51] <eroomde> id have a go at asking for a whole 6 months
[15:52] <LBCran_> Cranfield sits smack bang on an airfield, so weekends here -> weekend flyers.
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[15:53] <nick_> Which kind of crazies fly at weekends?
[15:53] <LBCran_> ah, these times and dates. - the time is time on each individual day, not a from and till window isnt it?
[15:54] <LBCran_> ah wait of course it is, daily period.
[15:57] <daveake> I usually ask for something like "9am to 2pm, Saturday and Sunday" which actually gets translated on the NOTAM into "9am Saturday to 2pm Sunday"
[15:58] <daveake> Also I usually ask for a particular "primary" weekend, and 2 or 3 backup weekends
[15:58] <daveake> But you can ask for whatever you like
[15:59] <daveake> Remember that having a NOTAM will very likely result in calls from pilots wondering if it's OK to pass through the area, so the wider your range of dates/times the more calls you're going to get
[16:00] <Randomskk> or you can have a rolling 24/7 notam and get woken up by pilots most days of the week
[16:00] <gonzo__> I put a /m phone number on my application, so just put the status ion answerphone
[16:00] <Randomskk> it's really great
[16:00] <daveake> Who'd want one of those then :p
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[16:32] <number10> does anyone know if there is a limit on 434 data tranmission like that on 868?
[16:34] <eroomde> ir3020
[16:34] <eroomde> or that
[16:35] <number10> ta
[16:35] <eroomde> page 17 of that document
[16:35] <eroomde> at 10mW, 10% duty cycle
[16:36] <number10> some one asked me if we switched off the transmitter between packets on 434MHz so I wondered why they asked (before I answer)
[16:37] <eroomde> i think we're meant to yep
[16:37] <eroomde> i usually do
[16:37] <eroomde> it might just be for 50ms
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[16:38] <eroomde> but at least i can answer truthfully if asked :0
[16:38] <number10> most people I have tracked - stop the data transmission but leave the tx enabled
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[16:46] <nosebleedkt> fsphil
[16:47] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[16:47] <nosebleedkt> this is the regulator i got: http://imagebin.org/218477
[16:47] <nosebleedkt> 70E man
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[17:11] <SamSilver> nosebleedkt: i am on my way out but there is a good write up somewhere about using that regulator for HAB (remove rubber and attach a fitting and hose then an adapter)
[17:11] <SamSilver> will have a look for it tomorrow
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[17:12] <SamSilver> nick/ SamSilver_
[17:12] <SamSilver> aaarg
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[17:49] <G0DJA> GE all how has everyone been whilst I've been away?
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[18:15] <fsphil> that'll do nicely nosebleedkt
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[18:23] <nosebleedkt> yes fsphil?
[18:23] <nosebleedkt> I was very anxious when i paid iy
[18:23] <nosebleedkt> it*
[18:24] <fsphil> you can always sell it again
[18:24] <fsphil> have you tried it?
[18:27] <daveake> what's this? </nosy>
[18:27] <fsphil> regulator for nosebleedkt's He tank
[18:28] <daveake> ah cool
[18:33] <nosebleedkt> i didnt try it, but they told me its the right one for the tank they gave me, and they also showed me how it works
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[19:01] <number10> AA ultimate lithiums 4 pack at Tesco £4.50 - http://www.tesco.com/groceries/Product/Details/?id=258536558 usual disclaimers I dont work for tesco buth thought it was of interest
[19:02] <number10> buth = bit
[19:02] <number10> but
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[20:00] <Laurenceb_> http://www.stockwell.com/pages/materials_foam.php
[20:00] <Laurenceb_> video is insane
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[20:56] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[20:57] <Lunar_Lander> got the NTX2 working with 3.3V by just replacing R3 with 47kOhm as mcclane said
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[22:10] <Laurenceb_> http://www.electravia.fr/mc15eEng.php
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[22:24] <Lunar_Lander> can I power my HIH-4030 off 5 V and then it will still be understood by my 3.3V arduino?
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[00:00] --- Wed Jun 27 2012