highaltitude.log.20120618

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[02:06] <griffonbot> @Mark_In_Geelong: RT @darksidelemm: #projecthorus featured on Scope, Channel Ten's kids science show! https://t.co/bUNKMdZQ [http://twitter.com/Mark_In_Geelong/status/214539639959199744]
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[06:22] <nosebleed_> hi all !
[06:27] <eroomde> hi nosebleed_
[06:27] <Darkside> hey eroomde
[06:28] <Darkside> http://rfhead.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/BzaEC.jpg
[06:28] <Darkside> hows that for a band-pass response :-)
[06:35] <fsphil> oh that's perfect
[06:35] <fsphil> also, nice scope
[06:35] <Darkside> thats not a scope
[06:35] <Darkside> its a network analyzer :P
[06:35] <eroomde> itll do i guess
[06:35] <eroomde> i want a spectrum and a network analyser
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[06:35] <Darkside> it should work well enough as a frontend for the RTL-SDR boards
[06:37] <eroomde> might u do a wee blog post on the design and layout?
[06:37] <Darkside> http://rfhead.net/?p=484
[06:37] <Darkside> i've only done that
[06:37] <Darkside> all the files for it are available
[06:38] <Darkside> http://pipe2.darklomax.org/projects/HABAmp/
[06:38] <Darkside> CC-By-SA
[06:38] <Darkside> Upu is getting a run of the pcbs made up
[06:38] <eroomde> ah sure but design justification is more interesting than it itself
[06:38] <Darkside> there isn't much to it
[06:39] <Darkside> its a SAW filter and a LNA
[06:39] <Darkside> and i've used microstrip as much as i can
[06:39] <eroomde> ill buy one anyhoo
[06:39] <eroomde> the analog devices website is like a sweetie jar
[06:39] <Darkside> the only thing i could have changed is to put the SAW filter after the LNA instead of before
[06:39] <Darkside> but i didn't do it because i wanted out of band signals removed before amplification
[06:40] <Darkside> else i'll saturate the amp with other transmitters on the car roof
[06:40] <eroomde> could you put a saw either side of the lna as with gps design recommendations?
[06:40] <Darkside> is there really any point?
[06:40] <Darkside> it just means more insertion loss
[06:40] <Darkside> and a higher noise figure
[06:41] <Darkside> noise figure doesn't matter so much with GPS
[06:41] <eroomde> true
[06:42] <Darkside> lemme calculate what the Nf would be if i put the SAW after the LNA..
[06:42] <eroomde> i guess a 1024 bit spread spectrum buys you like 60dB of gain
[06:42] <Darkside> yep
[06:43] <Darkside> heh ok so noise figure is 0.77dB if i have the SAW filter afte rthe LNA, 2.75dB ifi have it before :P
[06:43] <Darkside> but if i have it after, i saturate the LNA too easily
[06:43] <Darkside> the antenna is going to be on a car roof with other transmitters on it, likely 2m
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[06:47] <UpuWork> morning
[06:48] <eroomde> wowee
[06:48] <eroomde> just found a 0-100khz analyser on ebay
[06:49] <eroomde> an hp one, for surprisingly little
[06:49] <eroomde> nobody touch it or i will come and kill you
[06:49] <Darkside> heh the network analyzer in this lab goes down to 9KHz
[06:49] <Darkside> transmission only
[06:49] <Darkside> wait, 9Hz, not 9KH
[06:51] <eroomde> yeah, these are design more for electromechanical things
[06:51] <eroomde> say, characterising a control system
[06:51] <Darkside> cool
[06:51] <eroomde> sweep a sign in, measure the response, get a nyquist plot
[06:51] <Darkside> ok, grg hometime
[06:51] <Darkside> gtg*
[06:52] Action: jcoxon is having fun with hysplit
[06:57] <eroomde> whats it showing?
[06:58] <jcoxon> that if we floated from portugal it would take 7 days to get to the states
[06:58] <jcoxon> http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hysplitout/18658_trj001.gif
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[06:59] <jcoxon> i was seeing how much effect geography had on crossing time
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[07:01] <jcoxon> while normandy would give us 5 days
[07:01] <jcoxon> http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hysplitout/15662_trj001.gif
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[07:15] <UpuWork> looks like Canada to me
[07:15] Action: UpuWork gets his map out
[07:16] <UpuWork> how long before these winds change direction ?
[07:17] <jcoxon> not sure
[07:17] <jcoxon> a few months
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[09:26] <cuddykid> we should have a HAB trip somewhere like france/portugal and then have competition to sees who's floater makes it to the US/Canada!
[09:26] <cuddykid> I'd think a lot of expensive equipment would probably be going in the sea though
[09:35] <griffonbot> Received email: Anthony Stirk "[UKHAS] SDR + Front End Filter/Amp"
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[09:48] <griffonbot> Received email: Philip Crump "[UKHAS] Re: SDR + Front End Filter/Amp"
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[09:51] <griffonbot> Received email: John Graham-Cumming "Re: [UKHAS] SDR + Front End Filter/Amp"
[09:51] <griffonbot> Received email: Mark Jessop "Re: [UKHAS] Re: SDR + Front End Filter/Amp"
[09:55] <griffonbot> Received email: Philip Crump "Re: [UKHAS] Re: SDR + Front End Filter/Amp"
[10:02] <griffonbot> Received email: Mike Willis "Re: [UKHAS] SDR + Front End Filter/Amp"
[10:09] <griffonbot> Received email: Ed Moore "Re: [UKHAS] SDR + Front End Filter/Amp"
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[10:10] <eroomde> if everyone gets an sdr thing then there is Something That Must Happen
[10:10] <eroomde> which is a gps-discilplined oscillator integrated with the sdrs
[10:10] <UpuWork> I put you down for one eroomde that ok ?
[10:10] <eroomde> and a software mod to send some time information to dlfldigi
[10:10] <eroomde> yes UpuWork
[10:10] <UpuWork> oh you mailed
[10:10] <UpuWork> sorry
[10:10] <UpuWork> missed thqat
[10:10] <eroomde> and then the DL could do position fixes just with time of flight
[10:11] <UpuWork> you were one of the initial 5 :)
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[10:13] <Darkside> eroomde: im workung on this at uni
[10:13] <Darkside> timestamping the received signal
[10:13] <Darkside> costs about aud$70 per timestamp unit
[10:14] <Darkside> I do it by clamping the antenna input to ground
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[10:15] Nick change: phirsch_ -> phirsch
[10:15] <Darkside> that gives you a timestamp resolution limited by the sample rate
[10:15] <Darkside> I have some ideas on how to go beyond that
[10:17] <Darkside> involving a ramp function and a variable attenuator
[10:18] <fsphil> would be neat to track a flight from just the signal
[10:18] <fsphil> would make for a great light weight payload :)
[10:19] <daveake> Very low power too
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[10:19] <fsphil> yea. just a peep once every few seconds
[10:20] <daveake> Exactly
[10:20] <Darkside> you'd need some kidn of modulation
[10:20] <Darkside> i mean, the wider the bandwidth the better the resolution
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[10:21] <daveake> NTX2 and a 555 then :p
[10:22] <fsphil> we could even track satellites with such a system
[10:23] <Darkside> range resolution depends on signal bandwidth
[10:24] <Darkside> 10KHz bandwidth gives you approx 15km range resolution
[10:24] <Darkside> i think there are some tricks you can pull with phase offsets
[10:24] <Darkside> but i don't know enough about that
[10:24] <cuddykid> server has been shipped :D
[10:24] <gonzo_> are we talking about doppler tracking or using time to arrive?
[10:24] <Darkside> TDOA
[10:25] <SpeedEvil> The simplest one would be a coherent phase tracker - which would work even with a beaco
[10:25] <SpeedEvil> but does require accurate timebases at the reciever
[10:25] <Darkside> yeah, we won't have gps synced sample clocks
[10:25] <SpeedEvil> (sample clocks running largely in sync)
[10:25] <Darkside> i don't know if you can do that with the rtl dongles
[10:25] <SpeedEvil> rubidium oscillators may be adequate
[10:25] <gonzo_> that would be a prob without continuous rx of the beacon
[10:25] <Darkside> my plan is to use in-band timestamping
[10:25] <SpeedEvil> gonzo_ yes
[10:26] <Darkside> producing a timestamp on the received signal which you can use to correlate data
[10:26] <gonzo_> if you were to lose phase lock on the signal then the beacon would need to be very accurate and stable
[10:27] <gonzo_> interesting idea darkside
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[10:27] <Darkside> its something i'm working on at the moment
[10:27] <Darkside> i've got the hardware mostly ready for testing
[10:28] <Darkside> the issue is getting the time resolution of the timestamp high
[10:28] <gonzo_> the timing info could be slow, but the actual measurement point would need to be sharp
[10:28] <Darkside> at the moment i can place it to approx one sample
[10:28] <Darkside> i have some ideas on how i could get the timestamp to resolution better than the sample rate
[10:29] <gonzo_> I can see it simplifying the system by taking the GPS out of the payload. That would save batts, but would it be that significant?
[10:29] <fsphil> averaging?
[10:29] <Darkside> you won't be able to take the gps out of th epayload
[10:30] <Darkside> not if you want to track it to any useful resolution
[10:30] <cuddykid> is there any software for that SDR that runs on mac?
[10:30] <Darkside> cuddykid: nothing thats entirely mac based
[10:30] <Darkside> well
[10:30] <Darkside> gnuradio can run on mac
[10:30] <Darkside> but its a bit of work getting it installed
[10:30] <fsphil> cuddykid: cutesdr?
[10:30] <Darkside> fsphil: no
[10:30] <fsphil> gqrx if you're brave enough to compile it
[10:30] <Darkside> nope
[10:30] <Darkside> won't work
[10:31] <Darkside> gqrx depends on pulseaudio still
[10:31] <fsphil> ah
[10:31] <fsphil> that's out the window then
[10:31] <Darkside> it *should* be using the gnuradio stuff
[10:31] <Darkside> but it doesn't
[10:31] <oh7lzb> I wish DSP Radio would start supporting it... it does FCD already.
[10:31] <fsphil> they claim mac support
[10:31] <Darkside> RTLSDR is a complerely different kettle of fish to the FCD
[10:31] <Darkside> the FCD is a sound card
[10:31] <Darkside> the RTLSDR is a usb device
[10:32] <gonzo_> if not getting rid of the GPS, what are we trying to achieve then?
[10:32] <Darkside> gonzo_: fun
[10:32] <fsphil> that's what I like about gqrx, it supports both
[10:32] <gonzo_> a fair enough reasin
[10:32] <gonzo_> on
[10:32] <fsphil> why would the payload need gps, if it's measuring the time the signal arrives compared to the gps at each receiver
[10:33] <Darkside> yeah, so GQRX depends on pulseaudio
[10:33] <fsphil> (expecting math answer)
[10:33] <Darkside> juse pain to get that working on max
[10:33] <Darkside> huge pain*
[10:33] <fsphil> I'm sure the pulseaudio dependency could be removed
[10:33] <fsphil> dno't have a mac though :)
[10:33] <Darkside> he uses it for output
[10:33] <Darkside> when he should be using the gnuradio output sink
[10:34] <fsphil> outputting to pulseaudio does make it work better on linux
[10:34] <fsphil> but yea he should have native mac/win output too
[10:34] <fsphil> or use a library to handle it
[10:34] <Darkside> if he used gnuradio it'd be entirely crossplatform
[10:35] <fsphil> doesn't QT have audio stuff anyway?
[10:36] <Darkside> dunno if its crossplatform
[10:36] <Darkside> or good
[10:36] <cuddykid> ahh ok, thanks guys :) will still have a look into it at that price!
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[10:46] Action: SpeedEvil is dissapointed in the internet.
[10:46] <SpeedEvil> I can find no footage of a ghetto blaster being dropped from high altitude.
[10:53] <Laurenceb> lmao
[10:53] <Laurenceb> just been exchanging emails with a 3M application engineer
[10:53] <Laurenceb> i was asking why their 1522 tape uses polythene as a base material, when its supposedly water permeable
[10:54] <Laurenceb> hes just sent me a link to the wiki page on polythene
[10:54] <Laurenceb> really helpful stuff
[10:54] <SpeedEvil> You mean internal wiki?
[10:54] <Laurenceb> wikipedia
[10:54] <SpeedEvil> oh.
[10:54] <Laurenceb> heh
[10:55] <SpeedEvil> When what is water permeable.
[10:55] <SpeedEvil> Everything is water permeable (almost)
[10:55] <Laurenceb> the tape is supposed to be water permiable
[10:55] <SpeedEvil> ah
[10:55] <Laurenceb> but polythene is a really good water vapour barrier
[10:56] <Laurenceb> my best guess is its some special 3M polythene type stuff (TM)
[10:56] <SpeedEvil> microporous or something
[10:56] <Laurenceb> yeah
[10:57] <Laurenceb> samples are very low modulus compared to plastic bags
[10:57] Action: SpeedEvil wants a SEM.
[10:58] <SpeedEvil> Or a judicial review.
[10:58] <daveake> I once asked Kodak about min/max charging voltage for a camcorder, explaining that this was for a HAB ...
[10:58] <daveake> ... their response was that I should use their charger and plug in to the nearest mains socket
[10:58] <SpeedEvil> hah
[11:05] <oh7lzb> Did you proceed by explaining the distance to the nearest mains socket, illustrated by a photo taken from a HAB camera?
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[11:08] <griffonbot> @doomsterdom: RT @darksidelemm: #projecthorus featured on Scope, Channel Ten's kids science show! https://t.co/bUNKMdZQ [http://twitter.com/doomsterdom/status/214676030982586368]
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[11:11] <daveake> Er, no, I gave up
[11:22] <griffonbot> Received email: John Tanner "Re: [UKHAS] SDR + Front End Filter/Amp"
[11:23] <SpeedEvil> Interesting. I left a double glazed panel on the lawn. -> dead bit of lawn.
[11:30] <Laurenceb> might just have overheated it
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[11:30] <SamSilver_> lack of water
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[11:32] <Laurenceb> rofl
[11:33] <Laurenceb> 3M engineer has not sent me exactly the same paper of water permeability increasing polythene additives
[11:33] <Laurenceb> *now
[11:33] <Laurenceb> - on
[11:33] <gonzo_> can't be UK if lack of water was the problem!
[11:33] <Laurenceb> that i was reading earlier off google scholar
[11:35] <Laurenceb> i dont think they are going to spill the beans on what they do to the polythene
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[11:48] <RocketBoy> yo eroomde:
[11:54] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: yeah - definately overheating
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[12:25] <griffonbot> Received email: navrac "[UKHAS] Re: SDR + Front End Filter/Amp"
[12:27] <UpuWork> ping navrac
[12:27] <navrac> hiya upu
[12:27] <UpuWork> hey navrac
[12:27] <eroomde> ah missed RocketBoy
[12:27] <eroomde> damn
[12:27] <UpuWork> dunno if this is of interest
[12:28] <UpuWork> been doing some testing with a TPS61201DRC boost convertor
[12:28] <navrac> any good?
[12:28] <UpuWork> can power RFM22B + MAX6 + AVR for 4h 40 mins from a AAA
[12:28] <UpuWork> with some power saving code (RFM22B set to low power between transmissions, GPS in PSM mode etc) = 6hours 40 mins
[12:29] <UpuWork> in a warm room
[12:29] <navrac> not bad from a single AAA. I guess with 2xAAA you will get better efficiency
[12:29] <eroomde> PSM mode = Power Save Mode Mode?
[12:29] <SpeedEvil> Upu: neat
[12:29] Action: eroomde ducks
[12:30] <SpeedEvil> What's the capacity of the AAs?
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[12:30] <daveake> 3000mAh
[12:30] <daveake> AAA is 1200
[12:30] <SpeedEvil> http://www.batteryjunction.com/10440.html
[12:30] <SpeedEvil> in principle may be interesting
[12:30] <SpeedEvil> though you'd need a different regulator of course
[12:31] <navrac> and it will be very temp sensitive compared to lifo
[12:31] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[12:32] <SpeedEvil> For a pico though, the temp is rather higher
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[12:33] <navrac> i'm just trying to build the baloon for ozzie3 - will reuse a modified ozzie2 payload - i got 30+hrs with 2xAAA, but the gps is a bit problematic WRT to height in psm mode
[12:34] <navrac> I'll give the TPS61201DR a go for the next one
[12:35] <navrac> im just trying to work out the volume of a tube with pinched ends
[12:35] <SpeedEvil> navrac: two pyramids + cylinder is probably close enough
[12:35] <SpeedEvil> Or hemispheres even
[12:35] <SpeedEvil> depending on how pinched
[12:35] <SpeedEvil> Oh - silly me.
[12:36] <SpeedEvil> If someones pinched the ends - it'll just run out anyway.
[12:36] <navrac> I thought the tetroon was meant to give the best volume to surface area ratio - but the pinched tube seems to beat it
[12:36] <SpeedEvil> Sphere is best.
[12:36] <SpeedEvil> :)
[12:36] <navrac> yep - but takes a whole load of sealing
[12:36] <navrac> im after easy!
[12:37] <UpuWork> your not too late navrac, you'll be in round two of builds
[12:37] <UpuWork> in theory I have parts for 20
[12:38] <navrac> thats excellent - thanks
[12:38] <UpuWork> I have to buy 20 amps at once
[12:38] <UpuWork> £60 odd quid
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[12:42] <WillDuckworth> is the TPS61201DR more efficient than the NCP1400?
[12:43] <navrac> well the big advantage is that it will run off 1xAAA wheras the ncp1400/1420 cant provide enough mA to start the gps
[12:43] <navrac> but efficiencies are pretty similar from what i can see
[12:44] <WillDuckworth> cool - might be worth a look see find out
[12:44] <navrac> (when both running of 2.4V @~50mA)
[12:48] <UpuWork> The TPS61201DR isn't very home user solder friendly though
[12:48] <UpuWork> but the PCB + battery https://dl.dropbox.com/u/63720513/Images/HAB/IMG_0653.JPG
[12:53] <WillDuckworth> coming along nicely Upu
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[13:40] <Laurenceb> *evil laugh*
[13:41] <Laurenceb> i can now see all the printers in the university
[13:41] <Laurenceb> most have a location description too
[13:42] <Laurenceb> "chancellors office" hmmm
[13:42] <Laurenceb> goatse.jpg
[13:42] <SpeedEvil> Print out a fun game. http://www.b3tards.com/u/0d2ba503c5487a5f8adb/kidscorner-maze1-big.jpg
[13:42] <r2x0t> *really evil laugh* Now I can print on all printers in university...
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[13:44] <Laurenceb> does the solution speel something?
[13:44] <Laurenceb> *spell
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[13:46] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: Squint a bit
[13:46] <eroomde> RocketBoy: yo
[13:47] <Elwell> :-)
[13:48] <Darkside> SpeedEvil: ecplain?
[13:48] <Darkside> explain*
[13:48] <Laurenceb> i dont get it
[13:48] <SpeedEvil> The corncob in the middle is not a coincidence.
[13:49] <Laurenceb> something to do with the dark lines
[13:49] <Laurenceb> oh wait i think i know
[13:49] <Elwell> and 'hello.jpg' IIRC
[13:49] <Laurenceb> oh noes
[13:49] <Laurenceb> its rather dubtle
[13:49] <Darkside> i don't
[13:49] <Laurenceb> *subtle
[13:49] <Laurenceb> good for you
[13:49] <Darkside> goatse?
[13:49] <UpuWork> lol
[13:49] <Darkside> if its there, its very very subtle
[13:50] <UpuWork> it is
[13:50] <Darkside> OH
[13:50] <Darkside> move away from the computer
[13:50] <Darkside> far away
[13:50] <Darkside> aaaaaand there it is
[13:50] <SpeedEvil> Not mine, alas.
[13:51] <Darkside> thats very well done
[13:55] <Elwell> finally found the original source http://www.b3ta.com/board/10785319
[13:55] <SpeedEvil> oh - I meant to link to that.
[13:55] <SpeedEvil> oops
[14:01] <RocketBoy> eroomde:
[14:02] <RocketBoy> back
[14:04] <eroomde> yo
[14:04] <eroomde> i missed you earlier
[14:04] <eroomde> you yo'd me
[14:05] <RocketBoy> sorry -
[14:05] <RocketBoy> yeah just wanted to talk about the pressure sensor - how you are getting on - interface etc - the plan would be to launch from cambridge some time this week if I can persuade the CUSF guys
[14:06] <eroomde> ah, i wouldn't be able to finish it this week i'm afriad
[14:06] <RocketBoy> ah - ok - np
[14:06] <RocketBoy> I can hold off for a bit
[14:07] <RocketBoy> no real rush
[14:07] <eroomde> it would be more of a 2-week thing, i want for example a custom pcb to help keep the noise down, and for it to be ovenised which would take abit of soak testing
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[14:08] <RocketBoy> OK - np - sounds the real deal
[14:08] <eroomde> the purpose is to try and get sort of 5Pa resolution and signal (i.e. not noise) from 0 - 101 kPa
[14:08] <RocketBoy> wow - that would be good
[14:08] <eroomde> so we can see if it's 'bobbing' when it floats which might only have an amplititude of 10-20Pa, for example. or see turbulence in atmospheric layers
[14:09] <RocketBoy> ah ok - Im with you
[14:10] <eroomde> i'd also quite like it to come back if poss. not mega critical but more for a flight with v low winds rather than something that's quixotically head off into the oceans
[14:10] <eroomde> just cos the abs and diff sensors are sort of £50/ea which is a lot for me a the mo
[14:11] <eroomde> but it should hopefully answer a lot of the questions about what's going on inside and outside the balloon when they establish a float
[14:11] <RocketBoy> I'm happy to cough up the money
[14:11] <RocketBoy> might put it in a floater flight that we will get back though
[14:11] <eroomde> i'll make about 10 pcbs, will populate one myself but perhaps there could be some kind of insurance policy on the sensors :)
[14:12] <RocketBoy> yeah - that seems idea
[14:12] <RocketBoy> happy to ough up if I loose your sensor
[14:12] <RocketBoy> cough
[14:12] <eroomde> the rest of the pcbs are some nice op amps and precision voltage references that i'm using to make a precision constant current source to excite the sensor bridge, then some signal conditioning and a 16-bit SPI adc
[14:13] <UpuWork> You have my sword ! Oh wait money ? AFK!
[14:13] <eroomde> all to a 6-pin milspec connector on the outside of the ovenised box - 0V, 5V, MISO, MOSI, SCK, CSEL
[14:13] <RocketBoy> cool (well warm)
[14:13] <eroomde> and 2 festo fittings on the other side of the box - one to be left open to the outside and one to accept a tube from inside the balloon
[14:14] <eroomde> probs about 30C
[14:14] <Elwell> btw - do the ublox6 modules have pps output?
[14:14] <eroomde> hopefully it won't take much current though as the box will be well insulated
[14:14] <eroomde> Elwell: yes
[14:15] <eroomde> though some in the ublox range do more than others
[14:15] <Elwell> cool. cheap and useful :-)
[14:15] <eroomde> for example the TIM6 modules have 2 outputs, one of which can be programmed to do anything from 0.25hz to 10Mhz
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[14:15] <eroomde> the latter being really exciting because you can use that output to directly discipline a 10Mhz crystal and get a super super super super (getting the idea?) stable and accurate time reference
[14:16] <eroomde> good enought for speed of light time of flight work, eg you could do some sort of ranging between your ground station and the balloon without needing a bidrectional link
[14:17] <r2x0t> http://www.dpieshop.com/trimble-icmsmt-gps-disciplined-clock-module-with-10mhz-clock-output-p-1134.html < this is nice and cheap module
[14:17] <eroomde> ah that's a bit different
[14:17] <eroomde> I *think* it is anyway
[14:18] <eroomde> because the square waves output by the gps units alone are very accurately 10 million pulses per second, but the rising edge has up to typically 60ns jitter
[14:19] <r2x0t> depends on type
[14:19] <r2x0t> if it have OCXO inside, it should settle after a while
[14:20] <eroomde> so the conventional thing to do it to use the freq stability of the gps with the phase stability of something like a normal crystal and get the best of both with a PLL, or the more old fashioned way is to use the output to adjust the temp of an OCXO until there is no difference between the freq of the two
[14:20] <eroomde> there's no way that thing has an OCXO for £25 fella ;)
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[14:20] <Laurenceb> vctcxo
[14:20] <eroomde> Accurate 1PPS or even second output, synchronized to GPS or UTC within 15 nanoseconds (one Ã)
[14:21] <eroomde> from the webpage ^
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[14:21] <Laurenceb> poor mans ocxo apart from the fact its just as good
[14:21] <Laurenceb> for gps syncing
[14:21] <eroomde> so yeah, 15ns to a single standard deviation is probably a bit coarse for the time of flight stuff
[14:22] <Laurenceb> why?
[14:22] <eroomde> well, i guess that's vague and depends what you want to do
[14:23] <r2x0t> I think it have: http://trl.trimble.com/dscgi/ds.py/Get/File-577771/ICM_SMT_UG2B_76858-00-ENG.pdf
[14:23] <r2x0t> page 33
[14:23] <Elwell> it's what ~5m or so at light speed?
[14:24] <eroomde> but to my mind for making it useful for lots of things, especially in analogue, it makes sense to turn it into a sine wave with a pll with the advantage of getting much lower phase noise
[14:25] <eroomde> 5m assume that a) the transmitting is perfect and b) remember 15ns is one standard dev
[14:26] <eroomde> but 3 standard deviations is more like 60 ns and if the tx and rx are out by that then you might be nearer 100m out
[14:26] <Dan-K2VOL> good afternoon all
[14:26] <RocketBoy> what size festo ed - ('ill work on the tube fittng at the valve)
[14:26] <eroomde> haven't picked one yet
[14:26] <RocketBoy> yo dan
[14:26] <eroomde> you can make that cal if you'd like
[14:26] <eroomde> call*
[14:27] <eroomde> just not too tiny as that will increase the time constant of the system. not that actally that's a big deal for this app
[14:27] <eroomde> but seeing as the board i'm doing will also work nicely for high altitude pitot tubes... :D
[14:28] <Dan-K2VOL> nice eroomde
[14:28] <Dan-K2VOL> what else does the board do eroomde?
[14:29] <eroomde> oh this is just specifically for that
[14:29] <Laurenceb> oh i found a perfect pressure sensor
[14:29] <Laurenceb> only bookmark is not on this desktop
[14:29] <Laurenceb> <-fail
[14:29] <eroomde> it's designed to be a high accuracy and resolution, temp controlled box for 2 pressure sensors
[14:29] <eroomde> one absolute and one differential
[14:29] <Dan-K2VOL> eroomde
[14:29] <Dan-K2VOL> that's awesome
[14:30] <Dan-K2VOL> it would be great for measuring superpressure
[14:30] <eroomde> so hopefully it can resolve maybe 2-5Pa resolution over the full 0-101kPa atmospheric range
[14:30] <eroomde> yes that's exactly what it's for
[14:30] <Dan-K2VOL> oh very very nice
[14:30] <Dan-K2VOL> I have a roll of heptax!
[14:31] <Dan-K2VOL> not a long one mind you, but a few meters
[14:31] <eroomde> and with a high resolution (and more importantly hopefully low noise if i've designed it right) we should be able to see 'bobbing' during float that has amplitudes as low as 10Pa
[14:31] <Dan-K2VOL> that will be wonderful
[14:31] <Dan-K2VOL> will you put the design on github or something?
[14:31] <eroomde> but it's just a paper design at this stage i must stress
[14:31] <Dan-K2VOL> ah
[14:31] <eroomde> am doing the pcb layout now
[14:31] <Laurenceb> http://uk.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Honeywell/HSCMRRN002ND2A3/?qs=ET3KB2DL9X1deHBqE6QN3pKRs%252bT4bBHsvrDsiP6zyYY%3d
[14:31] <Dan-K2VOL> which sensors? I had decent differential results with the mps5004dp
[14:32] <Laurenceb> +-2" with 1.5% total error band over temperature
[14:32] <Laurenceb> i2c out 3.3v
[14:32] <RocketBoy> does the festo size refer to the od or id of the tube?
[14:32] <Laurenceb> what more could you ask for
[14:32] <eroomde> i'm using a very precise, low noise constant current source to excite the bridge which is a key part of the whole design, and something i've spent a lot of time trying to design and select the right op-amps for current feedback for
[14:32] <Dan-K2VOL> nice
[14:32] <eroomde> RocketBoy: ah i always confuse this
[14:32] <eroomde> tube is defined by OD, pipe by ID i *think*
[14:33] <RocketBoy> think is od from what i just read
[14:33] <RocketBoy> yeag
[14:33] <RocketBoy> yeah
[14:33] <eroomde> Laurenceb: that's a bit coarse i think
[14:33] <Laurenceb> you're crazy :P
[14:33] <eroomde> also 2@ isn't enough
[14:33] <eroomde> 2"
[14:33] <RocketBoy> ok then 4mm festo - which is about 2.5mm id from what i read
[14:33] <eroomde> yeah Dan-K2VOL , jesus please sort out your countrymen
[14:34] <Laurenceb> ok i guess its about 8Pa error
[14:34] <eroomde> what the hell kind of a unit is 7" H20
[14:34] <Dan-K2VOL> lol what?
[14:34] <eroomde> jesus wept
[14:34] <Laurenceb> its good enough for pitot
[14:34] <Dan-K2VOL> oh jeez
[14:34] <Laurenceb> just
[14:34] <Dan-K2VOL> I can't even get google to convert inches of water!
[14:34] <eroomde> (I'm only teasing :p but in my notebook i have written down about 9 conversation equations for various insane units in pascals)
[14:34] <Laurenceb> i guess you want as good as possible
[14:34] <Dan-K2VOL> I do like pascals!
[14:35] <Dan-K2VOL> gtg to work fellows, nice news ed
[14:35] <Laurenceb> only a few pascals error is doable
[14:35] <eroomde> there was mm of Hg too
[14:35] <Laurenceb> psi
[14:35] <Laurenceb> and bar
[14:35] <fsphil> mm/elephant
[14:35] <eroomde> RocketBoy: ok cool. if you could drop me an email with the tube or connectors you're using, i'll do the same
[14:35] <Laurenceb> oz/sqare inch too
[14:36] <RocketBoy> te great thing about pressure is all the ways you can measure it in
[14:36] <Laurenceb> *square
[14:36] <RocketBoy> bbl
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[14:36] <eroomde> in the parachute literature, which i got quite intimate with in my last job, they had US units of porosity which were so ghastly i'd rather have watched 2 girld one cup
[14:36] <eroomde> things like cubic foot inches of mercury per slug, or something
[14:37] <Laurenceb> mercury kills slugs
[14:37] <eroomde> and parachute engineers
[14:38] Action: Laurenceb has ordered the pressure sensors from mouser
[14:38] <russss> cubic what
[14:38] <eroomde> Laurenceb: i guess for this app (going back to convo a bit up) i'm more interested in loest possible SNR and highest resolution than absolute accuracy
[14:38] <russss> four dimensions of mercury
[14:38] <Laurenceb> ok
[14:38] <eroomde> just so we can 'see' the dynamics of floating
[14:38] <Laurenceb> pitot you want absolute accuracy
[14:38] <Laurenceb> well <10pa error
[14:39] <eroomde> yeah sure, and we can calibrate it anyway and get the best of both worlds
[14:39] <eroomde> but for absolute pressure in this app, i mean, the driver is low noise and high resolution
[14:39] <Laurenceb> also pitots are nice if they are small, low power and dont have analogue going everywhere to pick up interference
[14:40] <eroomde> well that's not strictly true
[14:40] <Laurenceb> on a 747
[14:40] <eroomde> there are v noise immune analog sensors
[14:40] <eroomde> or rather, analogue transmission methods
[14:40] <eroomde> like 4-20mA
[14:40] <Laurenceb> eeek
[14:40] <eroomde> which is great for trailing large carbles around noisy environments
[14:40] <Laurenceb> not good for matchbox size imu
[14:44] <eroomde> sure but fine for cusf-esa drop vehicle size things
[14:45] <eroomde> which is sort of whre you can start doing some interesting research
[14:49] <nick_> eroomde: did you hear I got an ultrasound range finder?
[14:49] <UpuWork> I'm sure Rob harrisons Icarus 3 board had pads for that differential pressure sensor
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[14:49] <UpuWork> MPXV5004DP ?
[14:50] <nick_> Might be fun to try and measure the gas gamma
[14:50] <UpuWork> thats a different one
[14:51] <UpuWork> pads look idential
[14:55] <eroomde> nick_: i didn't hear but good news
[14:59] <nick_> For free no less :)
[15:01] <nick_> Where free means for no money. I basically have to write some code in return.
[15:02] <nick_> Seeed gave some of their modules to mbed users to get code basically.
[15:03] <eroomde> how are you going tonice
[15:04] <eroomde> woah
[15:04] <eroomde> a) nice
[15:04] <eroomde> b) how are you going to drive it and how are you rigging it to measure SoS?
[15:05] <griffonbot> Received email: Dave "Re: [UKHAS] SDR + Front End Filter/Amp"
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[15:08] <eroomde> i just thought up a potentially simpler way of measuring SoS with a conventional mic and speaker
[15:08] <eroomde> comparing the phase difference between the signal sent to the speaker and the signal received by the mic
[15:08] <nick_> I'm not sure how I'll use it exactly, the docs online aren't good (they basically just say hook it up to their arduino shield and use their library)
[15:09] <nick_> I think this is easier.
[15:09] <eroomde> you can use a phase locked loop (or at least the building blocks of one) to make something that'll give you a voltage proportional to the phase difference
[15:09] <nick_> You send it a trigger and it comes back with a number for you.
[15:09] <eroomde> yeah if there's a black box solution then do that by all means
[15:09] <eroomde> presumably bouncing it off some target a known distance away?
[15:09] <griffonbot> Received email: Anthony Stirk "Re: [UKHAS] SDR + Front End Filter/Amp"
[15:11] <nick_> yeah, I'd put it in a little box.
[15:11] <nick_> It claims to be sensitive from a few cm to a few m.
[15:16] <eroomde> just to help it out i would put the reflector target as far away as possible
[15:16] <eroomde> eg at the end of a 1m rod
[15:16] <eroomde> a) minimises the effect of fixed inaccuracies
[15:16] <eroomde> b) boxes will have all sorts of funky reflections that might confuse it a little
[15:16] <nick_> Yeah
[15:17] <SpeedEvil> I keep meaning to do a test of my tablets wifi antenna using a bit of bamboo.
[15:17] <nick_> "box" was ill-defined.
[15:17] <nick_> I'll have a play around with the sensor once I get it up and running and think about how to do it.
[15:17] <nick_> Is it OK to have some arm sticking out of a payload?
[15:18] <daveake> Use something easily breakable, like balsa wood
[15:19] <eroomde> SpeedEvil: yeah i know how frustrating that can be
[15:19] <eroomde> i keep meaning to do that too
[15:19] <eroomde> i just gosh darn never get round to it
[15:19] <eroomde> what am i doing with my life?
[15:19] <nick_> Getting older.
[15:21] <SpeedEvil> I, for one, spend each night cryogenically frozen.
[15:21] <daveake> I had a part of my body cryogenically frozen last week
[15:22] <daveake> It's fallen off now
[15:22] <nick_> I bought a bed today :)
[15:23] <SpeedEvil> Getting older - when your bed has more memory than you do.
[15:23] <nick_> I tried a lot of matresses this morning.
[15:23] <nick_> Many of the memory foam ones are weird.
[15:24] <SpeedEvil> nick_: I need to get a new matress - I've been sleeping on the sofa for the past year
[15:24] <nick_> Yes, they mould to your shape, but many take a while to do so. While they are moulding you feel like you are slowly falling.
[15:24] <SpeedEvil> A properly controllable matress would be awesome.
[15:24] <nick_> SpeedEvil: good luck. The three shops I went to weren't very helpful in finding the right mattress.
[15:25] <SpeedEvil> Say 20*10 grid of air-cells.
[15:25] <eroomde> nick_: where did you go?
[15:25] <eroomde> i went to dreams on botley road
[15:25] <nick_> Dreams and the two next to it.
[15:25] <eroomde> i didn't realise that selling matrices was 'a thing' that attracted the same kind of people who are attracted to selling used cars
[15:25] <nick_> There were a creeper at Dreams.
[15:26] <eroomde> it's all patter and i'll-do-ya-a-deal
[15:26] <nick_> The thing that really annoys me is that they do't have a brochure with all the prices and the matresses are not arranged in a logical manner.
[15:26] <SpeedEvil> Indeed.
[15:26] <nick_> So it's hard to compare. How much difference is made by the bed, how much is the mattress?
[15:26] <nick_> Why aren't similar matresses next to each other?
[15:26] <daveake> "Low mileage, one careful owner"
[15:27] <nick_> Why does the softness numbering seem like it came from a random number generator.
[15:27] <nick_> Yeah, the guy we bought from knocked £50 off the list price for us.
[15:27] <SpeedEvil> hmm.
[15:28] <SpeedEvil> Considering it sillily - 20*10 matrix of controllable air-cells is not actually - even at a tenner per - that much in excess of current matresses.
[15:28] <nick_> You'd want way more than 20*10
[15:28] <SpeedEvil> I mean under a thin foam pad
[15:29] <nick_> The pocketed spring things have ~1k springs
[15:29] <SpeedEvil> hmm
[15:29] <eroomde> i think the mattress makes more difference than th bed
[15:29] <eroomde> but then there are important bed considerations
[15:29] <eroomde> like spring slats
[15:29] <SpeedEvil> Storage.
[15:29] <SpeedEvil> Is it road-legal.
[15:29] <SpeedEvil> Does it float?
[15:30] <eroomde> i got a reasonably nice matress topper (i didn;t know they existed before) and that helps a lot
[15:30] <eroomde> it also is nice cos you can wash it which you can't really do so easily to a matress
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[15:33] <nick_> Yeah, we already have a topper.
[15:33] <nick_> We needed it for the crappy matress we have had this year.
[15:34] <nick_> But now we're moving to an unfurnished place so we figured we finally get to pick our own bed.
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[15:39] <Laurenceb> http://uk.farnell.com/images/icon_new.gif
[15:39] <eroomde> right
[15:39] <eroomde> well, gtg on that note
[15:40] <SpeedEvil> Have fun.
[15:46] <fsphil> anyone know a calculator that can convert geographic coordinates to the Easting and Northing (3fig) values the notam asks for?
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[15:48] <daveake> Oh, I did find one once. Took me ages. And no I can't remember where it was :(
[15:54] <G0DJA> fsphil www.streetmap.co.uk put in location and it has the Eastings and Northings with a link to all the different locator systems at the bottom of the page
[15:55] <G0DJA> Just use the 1st three figures for each
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[16:03] <fsphil> cool, thanks G0DJA
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[16:07] <Bahiense> Anyone knows of a relatively easy antena to make and/or buy for use with a Trackuino (Radiometrix HX1, 144.390MHz)?
[16:08] <Bahiense> I mean antenna... my Spanish got in the way
[16:11] <fsphil> the simplest antenna would be a quarter wave vertical
[16:12] <G0DJA> If you are listening to 144.390 that is the SSB part of the band - most signals are horizontally polarised there
[16:13] <fsphil> 144.390 is the APRS frequency in the US
[16:13] <G0DJA> So, either a horizontal half-wave dipole or a Yagi (more gain but you have to point it in correct direction)
[16:13] <Bahiense> what is the best option in terms of weight?
[16:13] <G0DJA> That's true - haddn't thought of that!
[16:14] <fsphil> well, the americas
[16:14] <fsphil> not specifically the US
[16:14] <fsphil> quarter wave again I think :)
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[16:14] <fsphil> or maybe a vertical bazooka
[16:14] <G0DJA> How far is the nearest APRS station to you Bahiense?
[16:15] <G0DJA> If close (say up to 3 miles) a vertical half-wave dipole would be easy to make
[16:15] <Bahiense> Hard to know... it could easily be 200 km
[16:15] <G0DJA> You need alot of gain then Bahiese!
[16:16] <G0DJA> Or a big vertical very high up...
[16:17] <G0DJA> See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2-meter_band for information on propagation on 2M band
[16:18] <fsphil> best bet would be to run your own igate in the chase car
[16:18] <Bahiense> Yes, I was thinking of doing that actually
[16:19] <fsphil> the range of the HX1 at altitude will be quite impressive, but the time when you really need it is when it's near the ground just before landing
[16:19] <fsphil> and you need stations nearby for that
[16:19] <Bahiense> right
[16:19] <fsphil> depending on the terrain of course
[16:19] <G0DJA> AH, if the TX is in the balloon - makes a big difference!
[16:19] <G0DJA> Sorry, again not thought of that as not allowed in UK
[16:24] <fsphil> right, I'm heading home. bbl :)
[16:27] <Bahiense> thanks guys
[16:27] <Bahiense> terrain is pretty plain, luckily
[16:31] <navrac> if its a long distance to the next station I would go for an antenna with a low angle of radiation - such as a slim jim made out of aerial feeder. - Light and easy to build
[16:31] <navrac> http://www.southgatearc.org/techtips/slimjim.htm
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[16:34] <Bahiense> I see
[16:35] <Bahiense> so this should stay vertical, right?
[16:35] <navrac> yes
[16:35] <navrac> but have it upside down compared to the draeing
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[16:36] <Bahiense> I see, that's what I was thinking
[16:37] <Bahiense> Btw, can one of these be used for my own iGate? http://www.rigpix.com/yaesu/ft2500m.htm
[16:53] <G0DJA> Bahiese - All the work is done either in the TNC and/or PC programme, so any FM radio will usually do
[16:53] <G0DJA> Bahiense - Sorry keep typing it wrong!
[16:54] <G0DJA> What TNC do you have for APRS?
[16:54] <Bahiense> Thanks... no worries :)
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[16:54] <G0DJA> If you don't have a TNC try AGWPE and something like UI-View32
[16:55] <G0DJA> In fact you can use UI-View with a TNC as well...
[16:55] <r2x0t> nowadays, soundcard + sw is a best TNC...
[16:55] <Bahiense> Actually none... that was my idea, yes
[16:55] <Bahiense> I'm not sure the type of antenna I'll have to use for this on the chase car
[16:56] <r2x0t> what about 2m QFX ?
[16:56] <r2x0t> QFH
[16:56] <G0DJA> Mag mounted quarter wave if going to be almost line-of-sight will be OK
[16:56] <r2x0t> little bit bigger, but covers everything down to horizon
[16:56] <Bahiense> I see
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[17:25] <jiffe98> r2x0t: software would be better than something like a kenwood tm-d700 ?
[17:26] <jiffe98> I had originally started with software but then when I switched to the kenwood I seemed to be able to pick it up at greater distances
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[17:43] <r2x0t> radio with disc. output + good soundcard SW should be better than HW tnc, at least that's what I found
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[17:58] <jiffe98> r2x0t: any particular radio/software stand out?
[18:05] <r2x0t> AGWPE works well for sw
[18:09] <G0DJA> UI-View worked for me for many years
[18:10] <r2x0t> UI-View is just APRS viewer, connects to AGWPE or other sources of data
[18:10] <G0DJA> http://www.ui-view.org/
[18:10] <G0DJA> AGWPE needs something like UI-View though...
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[18:11] <G0DJA> I did use BPQ32 for a while as well
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[18:16] <r2x0t> there is AGWTracker: http://www.agwtracker.com/trkfeautures.htm
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[18:42] <jiffe98> UI-View looks familiar I think I've messed with that before
[18:50] <Elwell> D1 and D2 are a low cost replacement for a low drop 3.3 V regulator chip, such as the LE33. Operating the AVR at higher voltages exceeds the common mode range of many USB chips. If you need to run the AVR at 5 V, add 3.6 V zener diodes at D+ and D- to limit the voltage.
[18:51] <Elwell> pastefail. Apologies
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[18:52] <SpeedEvil> blue LEDs are easier to get than 3.6V zener
[18:53] <Elwell> SpeedEvil: twas from http://www.obdev.at/products/vusb/index.html if you're interested
[18:53] <SpeedEvil> Familiar with that
[18:54] <Elwell> thought you might be :-)
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[19:22] <cuddykid> just picked up an ancient monitor to install linux on this server tomorrow
[19:22] <WillDuckworth> how's it going cuddykid?
[19:22] <cuddykid> good thanks Will :)
[19:22] <cuddykid> wbu?
[19:22] <WillDuckworth> what flavour of linux you going for? all good here
[19:22] <cuddykid> thinking Ubuntu atm
[19:22] <cuddykid> otherwise CentOS
[19:23] <WillDuckworth> either good
[19:23] <cuddykid> should be fun trying to get it to install off a USB HD
[19:23] <WillDuckworth> no probs :)
[19:24] <cuddykid> got the pcb up and running too yesterday :)
[19:24] <cuddykid> hopefully launch end of this month - Sat 30th
[19:24] <WillDuckworth> i saw - did you need to do much or did upu have it sorted?
[19:24] <cuddykid> Upu did a fantastic job, just had to solder temp sensor on then upload my own code
[19:25] <cuddykid> microSD logger works well
[19:26] <WillDuckworth> cool. might be around to help if needs be - working on mine too so may be a double? i've got clearance in ledbury then too
[19:26] <cuddykid> brilliant, yep - all help much appreciated!!
[19:26] <cuddykid> could do a sat then sun launch? Or both on one of the days
[19:26] <cuddykid> going to get Hydrogen I think this time - want to split the large cylinder (£50 I think)?
[19:27] <WillDuckworth> ooo - that's an idea....
[19:28] <cuddykid> at £25 each would be much cheaper!
[19:28] <SpeedEvil> Fill with 10% oxygen too - simplieies the cutdown
[19:28] <cuddykid> need to get a reg though, I'll have a look on eBay - decent long term investment :)
[19:29] <cuddykid> lol SpeedEvil
[19:29] <r2x0t> lol
[19:29] <SpeedEvil> Oooh!
[19:29] <SpeedEvil> Add a little chlorine, and you've got light activated cutdown
[19:29] <r2x0t> but really make sure you don't trigger it at ground by accident
[19:29] <SpeedEvil> UV
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[19:30] <WillDuckworth> bit more than a pop eh
[19:30] <r2x0t> also in case it float and drifts down, add sticker: "If you can read this, run"
[19:30] <cuddykid> :)
[19:30] <cuddykid> daveake/Upu/other hydrogen pros: is this regulator appropriate? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BOC-SAFFIRE-HR14-HYDROGEN-200-BAR-REGULATOR-/370593194645?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item5649136295#ht_736wt_1075
[19:30] <SpeedEvil> I do wonder about long-range coupling.
[19:31] <Elwell> SpeedEvil: yeah, the travel was a pisser when g/f moved away
[19:31] <SpeedEvil> A HAB filled with a near stochiometric H2/O2 would ahve an awesomely good coupling to the atmosphere when expanded
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[19:33] <gonzo_> and a hell of a bang too
[19:34] <gonzo_> (that was to the H2O2 mix, not the DX relationship!)
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[19:37] <cuddykid> oh wow, nice and hefty cylinder @ 65kg!
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[19:39] <SpeedEvil> Launch balloons - get fit.
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[19:40] Nick change: andrew_apex_ -> andrew_apex
[19:41] <cuddykid> :D
[19:41] <Upu> I wouldn't buy that cuddykid doesn't look right
[19:41] <Upu> ours had a big red knob on it
[19:42] <cuddykid> ahh right, thanks Upu - do you know where to buy from?
[19:42] <Upu> BoC Directly
[19:42] <cuddykid> cheers :)
[19:42] <Upu> http://my.page-flip.co.uk/?userpath=00000013/00012513/00045524/&page=39
[19:42] <Upu> you want the 41491
[19:42] <cuddykid> brill, thanks!
[19:43] <fsphil> http://www.telfordgroup.co.uk/acatalog/REGULATORS.html
[19:43] <cuddykid> wow, lots of connectors, dials, knobs etc!
[19:43] <cuddykid> thanks fsphil
[19:43] <cuddykid> ooo, £137 - I guess it pays off after a few launches
[19:44] <Upu> you'll need pipe too, the acetyline one is suitable I think
[19:44] <Upu> but use a long run
[19:44] <Upu> something about it needs some back pressure
[19:45] <fsphil> interesting
[19:45] <Upu> be careful and using warning signs
[19:45] <cuddykid> will do
[19:45] <cuddykid> I'll get one of those face guards too I think
[19:45] <Upu> thats not a bad idea actually
[19:46] <cuddykid> Upu: where do you get the pipe from?
[19:46] <Upu> BoC
[19:46] <cuddykid> thanks
[19:46] <Upu> who owns the land you are launching from ?
[19:46] <cuddykid> local farmer
[19:46] <fsphil> BoC might be cheaper for that regulator directly
[19:46] <Upu> have you told him your using H2 ?
[19:47] <cuddykid> Upu: I will tell him, sure he'll be fine - he's quite detached from reality :P
[19:47] <Upu> just make you do it all rigth
[19:47] <cuddykid> and there's not much around
[19:47] <Upu> fire extinguisher
[19:47] <cuddykid> yep, will try and get WillDuckworth to come along too :)
[19:47] <fsphil> make sure the ground around you is not dried grass
[19:47] <fsphil> one of the reasons I won't use H2 at the craggen launch site is that it all looks horribly flamable
[19:48] <fsphil> +m
[19:48] <cuddykid> yep
[19:48] <fsphil> we'll be launching in Cookstown instead, hopefully if mr.notam is ok with it
[19:48] <fsphil> we're a bit closer to an airport here
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[19:52] <daveake> cuddykid If you have a BOC account call your local BOC place and order cylinder + regulator
[19:52] <daveake> You also need a cylinder key (to open the valve)
[19:53] <daveake> and spanner. You can buy cheap cast ones 21mm one end 28mm the other, but they're shit
[19:53] <daveake> Better get some decent spanners at B&Q or whatever
[19:53] <daveake> The cheap ones are a very loose fit
[19:54] <daveake> Also a fire extinguisher (I found Screwfix the best value).
[19:54] <daveake> Powder ones are recommended
[19:54] <daveake> Make up some warning signs and attach one to the line near the balloon in case it comes down partially inflated
[19:55] <daveake> Suggest you get a PAYG SIM and put that number on it. If you get called by an angry person put the phone down :D
[19:55] Action: Upu raises an eye brow
[19:55] <Upu> that was MY idea Akerman
[19:55] <Upu> :)
[19:56] <daveake> And where have I claimed otherwise? :)
[19:56] <Upu> lol
[19:56] <fsphil> now now children
[19:56] <fsphil> you can both be winners :p
[19:56] <Upu> heh
[19:57] <daveake> cuddykid Have a read of the H2 page on UKHAS. It's a wonderfully written and absolutely brilliant source of information .... :p
[19:57] <Upu> lol
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[19:58] <fsphil> so what property does the acetylene hose have that makes it appropriate?
[19:58] <daveake> Think we're evens now :D
[19:58] <fsphil> yay, peace in our time
[19:58] Action: Upu serious face
[19:58] <daveake> It's got the right thread on the end
[19:58] <Upu> we were joking about the prepay
[19:59] <fsphil> Acetylene seems to be Hydrogen's angry brother
[19:59] <daveake> cuddykid I have image files for the warning signs; let me know if you want them
[19:59] <jcoxon> hey fsphil
[19:59] <fsphil> hiya jcoxon !
[20:00] <Upu> you can fit a hydrogen "push to fill" to the end of an aceyline hose, just don't squirt the H2 out like you do with He
[20:00] <Upu> to flush the tube
[20:00] <fsphil> yea
[20:00] <fsphil> woosh
[20:00] <Upu> helium push to fill
[20:01] <jcoxon> interesting comment on iss fan club that we have a 60 second window to hit the ISS without doppler tuning
[20:01] <fsphil> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1LwYJ8pDhc
[20:01] <SpeedEvil> jcoxon: More if you're in a fast car on a salt flat.
[20:01] <fsphil> try a packet every 10 seconds that window?
[20:01] <jcoxon> exactly
[20:02] <jcoxon> plan13 can predict freq
[20:02] <WillDuckworth> jcoxon - is this updates to eurus?
[20:03] <jcoxon> WillDuckworth, a method of long range comms
[20:04] <fsphil> really long range!
[20:04] <fsphil> and space :)
[20:09] <jcoxon> bbl
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[20:16] <cuddykid> thanks daveake!
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[20:23] <Laurenceb_> http://www.spaceuk.org/htp/stentor2.jpg
[20:23] <Laurenceb_> eroomdes minions at work
[20:25] <SpeedEvil> Reminds me of
[20:25] <SpeedEvil> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wartuba.jpg
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[21:04] <G0DJA> That was on QI the other night - listening tubes to detect noise of aircraft - those ones are Japanese
[21:04] <G0DJA> There were concrete ones on the South East coast of UK
[21:05] <G0DJA> Here we go http://www.culture24.org.uk/science+%26+nature/technology/art17649 and http://www.autogena.org/mirrors/a.html
[21:06] <fsphil> featured on Coast a while back
[21:06] <fsphil> they where*
[21:07] <G0DJA> I remember a dish with a microphone at the focal point feeding an audio amp to headphones at the Audio tent at Lucas Anual Sports in Birmingham in the 1970s
[21:07] <G0DJA> I guess you would get done for invasion of privacy now-a-days
[21:08] <fsphil> I've bought one of those as a kit from cpc
[21:08] <G0DJA> Wondered about doing similar for bat detection
[21:08] <russss> I've been there! http://www.flickr.com/photos/russss/sets/72157624413694385/with/4809996630/
[21:09] <fsphil> the planetarium in Armagh have two dishs setup in the grounds outside, on opposite ends of a field. two people standing in front of each one can talk to eachother
[21:09] <fsphil> quite clearly
[21:09] <fsphil> it's really odd
[21:10] <fsphil> speaking of bats, I'd love to do a websdr, but with a high frequency microphone instead of radio
[21:11] <G0DJA> I bought some philips inserts with same idea but so small I think they are in the far corner of a draw now!
[21:11] <fsphil> lol
[21:11] <fsphil> do you know of any microphone that can operate high enough?
[21:11] <fsphil> I guess it would need to be sensitive up to 200khz
[21:11] <G0DJA> Gave up on websdr - so many people have them that no one visits unless you come in top of a google search. HI
[21:12] <G0DJA> Piezo ones do
[21:12] <SpeedEvil> G0DJA: Or unless they're a wierdo with a balloon flying overhead.
[21:12] <nick_> dammit
[21:12] <G0DJA> I made a bat detector but had to buy a transmitter as well in a pair from Maplins
[21:12] <nick_> debugging fail thanks to a missing \n
[21:12] <fsphil> piezo microphone?
[21:13] <SpeedEvil> A bat transmitter?
[21:13] <SpeedEvil> Novel.
[21:13] <fsphil> lol
[21:13] <fsphil> seems they like Meat Loaf
[21:13] <G0DJA> 100Hz to 10kHz http://www.maplin.co.uk/microphone-capsules-dm-13-621341
[21:14] <fsphil> I'd like to see (er, hear) if swifts do any calls above 10khz
[21:14] <fsphil> 10khz wouldn't be enough for bats?
[21:14] <G0DJA> But I'm sure the piezo ones went higher
[21:16] <G0DJA> Magenta Bat5 monitor tunes 9.8 to 132kHz
[21:17] <G0DJA> I think the local Pipestrells do about 68kHz
[21:18] <fsphil> the detector we used tuned to about that range
[21:18] <fsphil> I think we heard activity up to about 80khz
[21:19] <fsphil> these are basically little USB demodulators
[21:20] <G0DJA> Ah a bit out "common at 46kHz, soprano at 55kHz and Nathusius' at 40kHz "
[21:20] <G0DJA> I works like a Direct Conversion receiver
[21:20] <G0DJA> It
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[21:22] <fsphil> I'd need a sound card with a better sampling rate than 96khz
[21:22] Action: SpeedEvil wonders how you'd make a decent broadband bat mic.
[21:23] <fsphil> it's an interesting challange
[21:23] <G0DJA> I was thinking of hard wiring an insert into either the SDR-IQ or Perseus
[21:23] <SpeedEvil> I guess start out working out how to make 1nm Al films
[21:23] <G0DJA> But was thinking the lead might pick up interference from flourescents and other noise sources
[21:23] <fsphil> yea, it's starting to venture into RF territory
[21:23] <G0DJA> I test all my new bat monitors out on the flourescents :-)
[21:24] <G0DJA> Being an Energy Efficiency advisor I do worry that I'm adding to the noise...
[21:24] <SpeedEvil> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wollaston_wire
[21:24] <SpeedEvil> But - in foil?
[21:25] <SpeedEvil> http://www.americanelements.com/alnmf.html
[21:25] <fsphil> how would that work?
[21:27] <SpeedEvil> I mean as a diaphram in a ribbon mic, for example
[21:27] <fsphil> http://bertrik.sikken.nl/bat/mics.htm
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[21:29] <SpeedEvil> http://www.indium.com/nanofoil/ - neat!
[21:29] <Laurenceb_> http://uk.farnell.com/multicomp/mcca000090/mlcc-0402-np0-50v-9pf/dp/1759654
[21:29] <Laurenceb_> anyone want some caps?
[21:29] <fsphil> aaah surveys
[21:29] <fsphil> die popups die
[21:29] <fsphil> go back to the last century where you belong"
[21:30] <fsphil> ne or two Laurenceb_ :)
[21:30] <fsphil> +O
[21:32] <SpeedEvil> http://buy.solder.com/NanoFoil-Bundle-Kit-40-Microns-x-5-Inch-Squares/P1069_1019/ - ow. $12/in^2
[21:34] <Laurenceb_> what does it do?
[21:34] <SpeedEvil> It heats to 1500C when you dent it
[21:35] <Laurenceb_> wtf
[21:35] <Laurenceb_> crazy
[21:38] <SpeedEvil> It would make an awesome substrate to bond flash chips to.
[21:38] <SpeedEvil> For secure erase
[21:45] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/LMK105BJ104KV-F/587-1227-2-ND/930579 for more normal caps
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[21:45] <SpeedEvil> Mass production in action.
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[22:00] <nick_> I think I've finally got a version of my configuration file parser woring.
[22:00] <nick_> working
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[22:13] <G0DJA> Not sure what happened there again
[22:15] <fsphil> yikes, late already
[22:15] <fsphil> time flies
[22:21] <nick_> Yeah
[22:21] <nick_> I just realised it's not 1900 any more.
[22:21] <nick_> Which sucks.
[22:21] <nick_> On the other hand it looks like my logger is finally up and running, which anti-sucks.
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[22:33] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[22:39] <nick_> hi
[22:39] <Lunar_Lander> how are you?
[22:39] <nick_> OK
[22:39] <nick_> I got my data logger working.
[22:39] <nick_> At least partially.
[22:40] <nick_> It can read the config file to set up analog and digital polling pins and saves them to a file and sends the data over serial too.
[22:42] <nick_> Just need to reimplement talkng to a MySQL database, removing a tonne of debugging messages and add in more error checking and then my prototype board will just need some sensors to try out.
[22:44] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[22:44] <Lunar_Lander> I got my parser for the GPS working I think
[22:50] <Laurenceb_> lumia chase?
[22:50] <Laurenceb_> chase is on windows phone?
[22:51] <Lunar_Lander> ?
[22:51] <Lunar_Lander> no windows XP on my laptop and arduino
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[23:18] <Lunar_Lander> anyone still around who knows about CHDK?
[23:19] <Lunar_Lander> nevermind, found it :)
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[23:24] <zamabe> checkdick?
[23:25] <Lunar_Lander> xD no the Canon Hacker's Development Kit
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[00:00] --- Tue Jun 19 2012