highaltitude.log.20120614

[00:00] <fsphil> it should actually
[00:00] <fsphil> and it's quite brightly coloured, it may yet turn up on a beach somewhere
[00:00] <Smrtz> hmm. should have rented a boat.
[00:00] <SpeedEvil> That's been done :)
[00:00] <Smrtz> really? wow!
[00:00] <fsphil> lol yea
[00:00] <fsphil> a few times now I think
[00:01] <fsphil> Tim in holland landed in the ocean, hired a board and went out with a laptop and radio
[00:01] <Smrtz> what, do they try and cetch it in the boat?
[00:01] <fsphil> all after landing
[00:01] <fsphil> I don't think anyone ever intends to land in the ocean
[00:01] <Smrtz> ahh, I thought you ment they get a boat before hand
[00:02] <fsphil> daveake had a great one, it landed a few miles off shore and very very slowly drifted towards the beech
[00:02] <fsphil> beach
[00:02] <SpeedEvil> Awesome pictures on the water
[00:02] <Smrtz> yeah, I was here for that, watched it on the tracker.
[00:02] <fsphil> where's that picture of the payload floating?
[00:03] <fsphil> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/8820980/How-my-space-balloon-went-to-the-stratosphere-and-back.html
[00:03] <Smrtz> Actually really intresting for me, never thaught about how to get it if it lands in a restricted are or somethinkg like that
[00:03] <fsphil> sometimes you just can't
[00:03] <Smrtz> yeah, but I better
[00:03] <fsphil> one landed in a military firing range not so long ago
[00:03] <Smrtz> I need it for a grade
[00:04] <Smrtz> durring live fire?
[00:04] <fsphil> unknown
[00:04] <fsphil> but no way anyone was going out there to recover it
[00:04] <Smrtz> but still, that's crazy.
[00:04] <Smrtz> hah
[00:04] <fsphil> the place is probably littered with unexploded stuff
[00:05] <SpeedEvil> http://www.flickr.com/photos/daveake/sets/72157629187109165/
[00:05] <SpeedEvil> Is that launch - but doesn't have the picture
[00:05] <Smrtz> wait, how is that a picture of the paylode?
[00:05] <Smrtz> the camera is inside it.
[00:06] <fsphil> ah, the ed pose: http://www.flickr.com/photos/daveake/6824993091/in/set-72157629187109165
[00:06] <SpeedEvil> There is a man standing next to it pointing a camera at it.
[00:06] <fsphil> Smrtz: there where two payloads
[00:06] <fsphil> one photographed the other
[00:06] <SpeedEvil> oh - that one
[00:06] <Smrtz> ahh, that's what I thought.
[00:06] <Smrtz> so, now that we have the radio in the mail.
[00:06] <fsphil> gosh, 1:06am
[00:06] <Smrtz> power.
[00:06] <Smrtz> wait, its 1am there?
[00:07] <fsphil> aye
[00:07] <SpeedEvil> yes.
[00:07] <Smrtz> wut?
[00:07] <SpeedEvil> Here too.
[00:07] <SpeedEvil> (Scotland)
[00:07] <SpeedEvil> Same timezone across the water though.
[00:07] <Smrtz> I knew your time was wrong, but it's only 8 here.
[00:07] <fsphil> ooh, the local sonde launch is getting nearer me this time
[00:07] <SpeedEvil> (Note the cunning avoidance of having to remember which bit of that bit of land to the left of scotland fsphil is in)
[00:08] <Smrtz> heh
[00:08] <fsphil> lol
[00:08] <fsphil> the interesting bit
[00:08] <Smrtz> anyway, I'm using the 3.3v arduino, SpeedEvil knows this.
[00:08] <Smrtz> and I have some AA batterys.
[00:08] <SpeedEvil> For me to know this, I also have to remember it.
[00:09] <Smrtz> I know unregulated goes into "RAW" and 3.3v comes out the rest, but, can I just solder directly to the batterys?
[00:09] <SpeedEvil> Alkaline batteries?
[00:10] <Smrtz> and yes, when I designed the circuit you said it would work, I did it in paint? because eagle is weird and backwards.
[00:10] <SpeedEvil> It's generally a poor idea to solder to batteries if you have to ask if it's OK to solder to them.
[00:10] <SpeedEvil> Use a battery holder.
[00:10] <Smrtz> that holds them in paralell?
[00:11] <Smrtz> and no, Energizer Advanced Lithium
[00:11] <fsphil> a nippy -50c up there tonight
[00:12] <fsphil> interesting, the prediction on habhub is fairly worng
[00:12] <fsphil> wrong
[00:12] <SpeedEvil> Soldering those is probably a really bad idea
[00:12] <SpeedEvil> as they have actual metallic lithium in
[00:13] <SpeedEvil> which has a rather low melting point
[00:13] <Smrtz> wait, so is it -50? because if so, than that's why I'll never go there.
[00:13] <Smrtz> ahh, gladd I asked, I was about to do it last night.
[00:13] <fsphil> -50c at 17km up
[00:13] <Smrtz> but it was 1 here, so like 5 there.
[00:13] <Smrtz> ahh, haha whats the ground temp?
[00:14] <Smrtz> by the way, I'm logging this for the report to show my teacher.
[00:23] <fsphil> warming up, only -49c now
[00:24] <Smrtz> lol
[00:25] <Smrtz> how should I wire the batterys, like what voltage are they?
[00:25] <Smrtz> internet gave a vague answer
[00:25] <fsphil> typically 1.5v each cell
[00:26] <fsphil> 4x AAs in series is pretty common
[00:26] <fsphil> should give 6v
[00:26] <Smrtz> ahh, great. thanks
[00:29] <Smrtz> wait, series? I thought paralell increases voltages, while series increases time.
[00:34] <fsphil> other way
[00:35] <Smrtz> oh, well then.
[00:35] <Smrtz> lol
[00:35] <Smrtz> thanks
[00:37] <fsphil> this sonde is about 25km from me, and about 22km up. the signal is getting quite weak on my colinear already
[00:37] <Smrtz> comeing twards, or away?
[00:37] <fsphil> heading right at me
[00:38] <fsphil> it's due to burst shortly
[00:38] <fsphil> they normally pop at 27km
[00:38] <fsphil> the lower winds will carry it north so this one won't land near me
[00:38] <fsphil> will keep an eye on them though - be neat to find one
[00:39] <fsphil> burst
[00:39] <fsphil> down she comes
[00:39] <fsphil> spinning fast from the sound of it
[00:39] <Smrtz> I hear about people using the parts for their own
[00:39] <Smrtz> like chutes, batterys, and transmitters
[00:39] <fsphil> the chute would be handy
[00:40] <Smrtz> yeah
[00:40] <Smrtz> I'm using my teachers modle rocketry one, so it's not exactly perfict. as in size, strength, and attachment points.
[00:41] <Smrtz> but it was free.
[00:41] <fsphil> free is good
[00:41] <Smrtz> heh yea
[00:41] <SpeedEvil> Free can be bad.
[00:41] <SpeedEvil> You need to carefully think if free stuff is actually good.
[00:41] <Smrtz> depending on if it's free but somewhat related or not.
[00:42] <SpeedEvil> It can compromise a design, or make it take longer to make.
[00:42] <Smrtz> well, modle rocketry is somewhat relevent, and it's a "payload" chute, so I think I came out on top
[00:42] <fsphil> g'nite all!
[00:42] <SpeedEvil> night
[00:44] <Smrtz> later!
[00:44] <Lunar_Lander> night
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[01:23] <Smrtz> thinking of using RTL-SDR
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[01:46] <dayz> hello gentlemen
[01:47] <dayz> how is everyone tonight?
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[05:56] <eroomde> morning
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[06:00] Nick change: zamabe -> zamabe_
[06:00] Nick change: zamabe_ -> zamabe_cell
[06:00] Nick change: zamabe_cell -> zamabe[cell]
[06:00] Nick change: zamabe[cell] -> zamabe
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[06:23] <Upu> morning
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[06:35] <eroomde> whats new in happytown?
[06:36] <eroomde> im mentally gearing up for revenge of the pcb part 2
[06:36] <fsphil> silly mornings, with the silly waking up and stuffs
[06:37] <Upu> happy town is wet
[06:37] <Upu> which is bloody annoying
[06:37] <fsphil> but it's yagi day
[06:37] <Upu> see if the antenna guy wants to go on the roof
[06:37] <Upu> we'll see
[06:44] <eroomde> upu how do you rate the chipscale antennss?
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[06:44] <Upu> you know its pretty good
[06:45] <Upu> its not quite as good as the Sarantel but I was up to 10 satellites in doors in testing yesterday and XABEN used one last week upside down for the entire flight with no issues
[06:45] <eroomde> hmmm
[06:45] <eroomde> tempted for this product
[06:46] <eroomde> would save the cutout and a few grams
[06:47] <Upu> I wouldn't use it in a highly dynamic environment
[06:51] <eroomde> sure
[06:51] <eroomde> this is just hab-esque anyway
[06:51] <eroomde> moored blimps
[06:51] <Upu> Ed Moored ?
[06:51] <Upu> see what I did there ?
[06:52] <Upu> well if you want to test one I have breakouts
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[06:53] <eroomde> ill have a thunk once i get to work
[06:56] <eroomde> ty for the advice
[06:59] <eroomde> ight bbl
[06:59] <Upu> ttyl
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[07:00] <number10> is that one of your breakouts on xaben http://www.flickr.com/photos/16828840@N07/7173618921/sizes/l/in/photostream/ Upu
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[07:02] <Upu> interesting
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[07:02] <Upu> can't tell don't think so
[07:02] <Upu> only 2 wires to that
[07:03] <number10> thats whay I was thinking
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[07:57] <gonzo__> on this chan, ttyl should really mean, teletype later
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[09:25] <WillDuckworth> heathkid seems to be having some issues
[09:26] <jonsowman> yeah
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[09:27] <jonsowman> heathkid: sort your connection out :)
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[09:44] <jonsowman> *tumbleweed*
[09:45] Action: Darkside drops a pin
[09:49] <Laurenceb> lmao
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[09:50] <gonzo__> that would make it very difficult to sit down
[09:50] <gonzo__> having a detached bottom
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[09:55] <The-Compiler> that reminds me of git.
[09:55] <The-Compiler> "You are now in detached HEAD state"
[09:55] <The-Compiler> No, no, I think my head is attached just fine.
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[09:56] <eroomde> my favourite error is one that LaTeX produces
[09:57] <eroomde> 'Badness 10000'
[09:57] <jonsowman> haha yeah
[09:57] <eroomde> it can't imagine you can get anything much more bad than that
[09:57] <jonsowman> that is a lot of bad
[09:57] <jonsowman> and it's because an image is not wide enough for its container or something
[09:57] <jonsowman> TeX clearly takes that pretty seriously
[10:00] <eroomde> yes, something about bounding boxes
[10:00] <eroomde> whatever, you Really Shouldn't Be Doing It
[10:00] <jonsowman> can't say i've ever examined the error enough to bother fixing it
[10:00] <jonsowman> LaTeX must hate me
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[10:18] <Laurenceb> http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/178018_10150984640307941_556578356_o.jpg
[10:19] <jonsowman> :|
[10:19] <jonsowman> he's having a bad day
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[11:22] <nick_> Upu: does your tracker board have any communication interface?
[11:22] <Upu> how do you mean ?
[11:22] <Upu> software serial ?
[11:24] <nick_> Or hardware serial?
[11:24] <nick_> Basically if you wanted to insert some data into the transmission is there a way to talk to your board to do so?
[11:25] <Upu> of course just change the code
[11:25] <Upu> all the analogue ports are broken out so you can wire stuff in as needed
[11:26] <nick_> Do you have some docs for your board?
[11:26] <Upu> not really I don't sell them
[11:26] <Upu> its just an Arduino Pro
[11:26] <Upu> with GPS and radio
[11:27] <nick_> OK, so with just software change you could poll a serial interface and insert some data into the transmission data?
[11:27] <Upu> yep
[11:27] <fsphil> taken to extreme, I send images between my telemetry strings
[11:27] <nick_> Cool
[11:27] Action: nick_ was thinking of a board design overnight/this morning
[11:28] <nick_> A simple data logger that doesn't need any programming to configure.
[11:29] <nick_> Yesterday I got a simple settup running logging to SD and MySQL via ethernet.
[11:29] <nick_> If it could talk to your board via serial then it could be a simple way for people to launch a few sensors.
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[11:31] <nick_> And transmit some of the data in case they can't recover the SD card
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[11:39] <nick_> What pressures are expected at ~30km?
[11:42] <jonsowman> http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/international-standard-atmosphere-d_985.html
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[11:51] <gonzo__> should the word 'simple' be included in a sentence with SQL in ?
[11:52] <nick_> It was suprisingly easy to get it working with SQL, thanks to someone else's work.
[11:55] <gonzo__> just wondering how many megawatts of power you need to run the sw
[11:55] <nick_> It's not running SQL
[11:55] <nick_> It talks to a database over ethernet.
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[12:12] <cuddykid> Upu: it's arrived!! thanks :D - I'll get a NTX2 650 dispatched up to you today :)
[12:15] <Upu> no problems cuddykid good luck with it
[12:15] <Upu> sorry Geraldine
[12:15] <cuddykid> lol
[12:15] <cuddykid> thanks :)
[12:15] <cuddykid> hopefully fly it last weekend of this month :D
[12:16] <Upu> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/63720513/Images/HAB/sdr.jpg <- Payload decoding with a £12 Dongle
[12:20] <cuddykid> oh wow!
[12:20] <cuddykid> just a little cheaper than an ft817 ;)
[12:20] <nick_> Upu: can you explain what I'm looking at?
[12:21] <Upu> yes basically a £12 USB dongle receiving a HAB transmission the signal is then passed to dl-fldigi to be decoded
[12:21] <nick_> This is the SSB data from a payload?
[12:22] <nick_> Which dongle?
[12:22] <Upu> yep
[12:22] <Upu> I'm using an EZCAP dongle
[12:23] <nick_> Which interfaces to an antenna?
[12:23] <jonsowman> nick_: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jonsowman/7273795846/in/photostream
[12:23] <jonsowman> dongle is the thing with the blue LED on the left of the screen#
[12:23] <jonsowman> -#
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[12:24] <nick_> What's it connected to on the other end?
[12:24] <Upu> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/63720513/Images/HAB/IMG_0655.JPG
[12:24] <nick_> the radio on the bottom left?
[12:24] <jonsowman> 2m/70cm whip antenna
[12:24] <Upu> ditto here
[12:24] <Upu> well colinear
[12:25] <fsphil> I'm surprised it works on the colinear
[12:25] <nick_> So this is a replacement for a £300 radio?
[12:25] <fsphil> without being overloaded
[12:25] <nick_> If you just want to do tracking
[12:25] <jonsowman> fsphil: the e4k can squash its front end gain quite a lot
[12:26] <jonsowman> nick_: it has some downsides, but yes it does do everything required for tracking
[12:26] <Upu> yay Katy Perry again \/0\/
[12:26] <fsphil> aah
[12:26] <Upu> yeah if your not careful with it you get radio 1
[12:26] <jonsowman> lol
[12:26] <fsphil> lol
[12:26] <Upu> just be aware of that
[12:26] <jonsowman> :D
[12:26] <fsphil> that's not static, that's dubstep
[12:27] <eroomde> i want mine to arrive
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[12:27] <jonsowman> did you get it from cosycave eroomde?
[12:27] <fsphil> I must try gqrx on the pi
[12:27] <eroomde> nick_: the caveat to add to the above is that it's not going to be as sensitive as a ham radio
[12:27] <eroomde> jonsowman: not sure
[12:27] <eroomde> some ebay dude
[12:27] <jonsowman> ah ok
[12:27] <eroomde> cosycave doesn't ring a bell though
[12:28] <jonsowman> https://www.cosycave.co.uk/category.php?id_category=48
[12:28] <jonsowman> top three
[12:28] <nick_> Does it require any special software?
[12:28] <Upu> some
[12:28] <fsphil> you need some kind of sdr software
[12:28] <Upu> I'll document it shortly
[12:28] <eroomde> nick_: but building a pre-amp and filter is both interesting and not too expensive - the parts count is very low
[12:28] <nick_> will it run on linux?
[12:28] <Upu> https://www.cosycave.co.uk/product.php?id_product=104
[12:28] <Upu> thats the one have
[12:28] <fsphil> nick_: very
[12:28] <eroomde> it just means you'll loose the frequency agility if you have a preamp plugged in
[12:28] <eroomde> nick_: run it with GNU Radio
[12:29] <nick_> cool
[12:29] <jonsowman> nick_: http://hexoc.com/u/rtl-xaben.png
[12:29] <fsphil> gqrx is probably 100 times easier than gnu radio though
[12:29] <jonsowman> yeah gqrx is very good
[12:29] <eroomde> http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL618122BD66C8B3C4&feature=plcp
[12:30] <nick_> So something like this and an rpi sat on a roof somewhere would be a good cheap tracker?
[12:30] <fsphil> rpi may not be fast enough
[12:30] <nick_> OK
[12:30] <jonsowman> this needs more investigating
[12:30] <jonsowman> by those with pis
[12:30] <eroomde> if only they'd let you at the dsp, raspi would probably be fast enough
[12:30] <fsphil> with what?
[12:30] <fsphil> it might work without all the ui sutff
[12:30] <jonsowman> yeah
[12:31] <jonsowman> that's what i mean
[12:31] <fsphil> X takes too many cycles
[12:31] <eroomde> it's damn frustrating though. they have a dsp/gpu thing on the damn broadcom chip
[12:31] <fsphil> that and using the proper compile flags, it might just work
[12:31] <eroomde> that would smash FFTs to pieces
[12:31] <fsphil> yea
[12:31] <eroomde> it's like the canonical parallelisable algorithm
[12:32] <eroomde> sigh
[12:32] <jonsowman> :)
[12:32] <eroomde> maybe you can get at the dsp through x
[12:32] <eroomde> send it a 'model' whose 'rendering' happens to be the answer
[12:33] <eroomde> we tried to do that once to make a canon A560 talk to a radiometrix
[12:33] <eroomde> by creating jpegs which were design to produce a certain waveform when they got squirted out of the video output on the camera
[12:34] <daveake> :D
[12:34] <eroomde> it didn't work but it was fun to try
[12:34] <daveake> I like your style
[12:34] <eroomde> we were seeing if you could make chdk the flight logic
[12:35] <eroomde> on a quest for 80g camera payloads
[12:35] <eroomde> decent camera, i should say
[12:35] <eroomde> with actual glass
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[12:37] <nick_> What sensors do people usually want on a payload? temp, pressure...?
[12:38] <eroomde> gamma ray detectors
[12:38] <eroomde> but yeah temp and pressure are nice
[12:38] <eroomde> stuff that investigates internal balloon stuff is super cool
[12:38] <nick_> like?
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[12:39] <eroomde> eg balloon internal pressure, differencial pressure between balloon and outside, internal and external temps
[12:39] <eroomde> and so on
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[12:39] <eroomde> i'm not massively sure how you could make a really accurate delta temperature sensor
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[12:39] <eroomde> something involving thermoelectric effect probably but the actual implementation and accuracy could be tricksy
[12:40] <eroomde> i guess instead just have 2 really accurate temp sensors calibrated against each other
[12:42] <eroomde> i'd be interested if you have any bright ideas on measuring temp difference accurately
[12:42] <eroomde> as a research physicist
[12:42] <griffonbot> @adamcudworth: Next generation #HABE flight computer! Thanks @AnthonyStirk for your help! #UKHAS http://t.co/4R29xJUA [http://twitter.com/adamcudworth/status/213250169955823616]
[12:43] <eroomde> say measure the temp difference between the balloon at the neck and perhaps a meter inside
[12:43] <eroomde> (just out of curiosity on internal thermodynamics)
[12:43] <nick_> Hmm
[12:43] <eroomde> it might be very very low
[12:43] <nick_> I've only really used PT100s for temp sensing
[12:43] <Upu> let me know if the SD works cuddykid
[12:43] <eroomde> yeah PT100 was about as far as i've got
[12:44] <nick_> (usually for cryo temps)
[12:44] <eroomde> but accurate deltaT would be funkytown
[12:44] <cuddykid> Upu: will do :)
[12:44] <nick_> I'm just thinking of making up a sensor logging board for general or HAB use.
[12:45] <nick_> With a few on board sensors and breaking out stuff to connect anything special
[12:45] <eroomde> yeah
[12:45] <eroomde> get a decent adc with a few instrumentation amp channels
[12:46] <eroomde> and maybe +/- 15V supply
[12:46] <eroomde> that'll give you a lot of options
[12:46] <nick_> Sticking an ultrasound range finder on there could make a neat little measurement.
[12:46] <eroomde> to measure a?
[12:46] <eroomde> 'a'
[12:46] <eroomde> or for a retro-rocket landing altimeter
[12:46] <nick_> what's a?
[12:46] <eroomde> ...
[12:46] <eroomde> speed of sound
[12:47] <nick_> To measure the speed of sound
[12:47] <eroomde> ah indeed
[12:47] <eroomde> which of course is just indirectly measuring temperature
[12:47] <eroomde> so it would be interesting to fly both the ultrasonics and a temp sensor and see how they compare
[12:47] <nick_> Isn't it a combination of temperature and pressure?
[12:48] <eroomde> nope
[12:48] <eroomde> well, not in an ideal gas anyway
[12:50] <eroomde> it's sqrt(gamma*gas_constant*temp)
[12:50] <nick_> ok
[12:52] <nick_> For ground based things I was thinking temp, pressure, lihgt and maybe humidity as some standard simple sensors.
[12:52] <eroomde> sorry i dropped a term, it's not gas constant it's gas_constant/mass of air in kg mo^-1
[12:53] <eroomde> that's all fine and worthwhile
[12:53] <eroomde> light bight show you some fun things too
[12:53] <eroomde> if the light sensor is just on one side you can take its fourier transform to figure out your rotation rate
[12:54] <eroomde> but i'd not considered using ultrasound to measure SoS before, i think that's really worth doing
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[12:59] <nick_> I wonder if you can tell anything else from combining the speed and the temperature.
[12:59] <eroomde> gamma?
[13:00] <nick_> Maybe you could tell something about the composition of the air?
[13:00] <eroomde> if the air's composition changes with altitude, then gamma should change
[13:00] <nick_> Since you essentually get <m>?
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[13:00] <eroomde> so gamma = f(composition)
[13:00] <eroomde> might be lost in the noise though
[13:00] <eroomde> dunno
[13:01] <nick_> Isn't gamma basically the same for most stuff in air though?
[13:01] <nick_> N2 and O2
[13:01] <eroomde> yes
[13:01] <eroomde> to within about 0.1%
[13:02] <eroomde> though you might measure it's small (non-ideal) increase as temp drops
[13:03] <eroomde> a couple of percent perhaps
[13:04] <nick_> I guess it should change when you hit the O3
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[13:50] <Elwell>
[13:50] <Elwell> There will be another tour to the CCC (CERN Control Centre) in Prevessin next Tuesday, June 19th, 16:45++. Meeting is in front of b31. The tour shall take no longer than 2h. For those who dont have a car, well arrange for car sharing.
[13:50] <Elwell> pastefail
[13:51] <nick_> go go tape drive robots
[14:08] <eroomde> lucky the germans aren't in charge of naming things
[14:08] <eroomde> Kollider Kontrol Kabin
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[14:31] <nick_> CERN was set up to stop people like the Germans
[14:32] <nick_> By which I mean to stop a European war that destroyed the world (not specifically to do with the Germans).
[14:34] <Laurenceb> by destroying europe with a black hole?
[14:38] psophis (~anonymous@24-182-184-69.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com) left irc: Quit: psophis
[14:39] <nick_> By taking nuclear research away from the weapons market
[14:39] <nick_> And collaborating between countries who were recently enemies.
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[14:49] <Elwell> and its a place to loiter with books...
[14:49] <Elwell> http://arts.web.cern.ch/news/2012/strangels-cern-library
[14:50] <eroomde> NO MORE AIRWIRES!
[14:50] <jonsowman> :)
[14:50] <fsphil> Victory is yours!
[14:50] <nick_> eroomde: beats what someone does with the books at RAL
[14:50] <eroomde> doesn't mean i've finished, but it's finished for a first pass
[14:50] <nick_> Elwell: even
[14:50] <eroomde> http://i.imgur.com/xMAO6.png
[14:51] <jonsowman> i love the bus running along the edge
[14:51] <eroomde> which bus?
[14:51] <nick_> What are the red abd blue areas?
[14:51] <eroomde> oh the highway from the atmega to the left hand stuff?
[14:51] <nick_> different ground planes?
[14:51] <jonsowman> the 7 wires from the avr to the bottom left area
[14:51] <eroomde> nick_: red = top copper, blue = bottom copper
[14:52] <eroomde> in general i try and keep the bottom as solid a ground plane as possible
[14:52] <eroomde> and do the signals on the top
[14:52] <fsphil> I tried that on my mini hadie board, but failed
[14:52] <eroomde> but there are lots of reason to override that rule
[14:52] <fsphil> ended up splitting the ground plane in two or three
[14:52] <eroomde> for example in the right hand connector on the bottom with the thick traces, the priority there is to minimise the length of all the traces as it's high current
[14:53] <eroomde> ah yes by 'solid' groundplane i mean regionally-solid
[14:53] <nick_> What does this board do?
[14:53] <eroomde> this board has different areas of ground to try and minimise inteference between subsystems, for axample the switch-mode power supply and the op-amp that measures the high current
[14:54] <fsphil> sneaky
[14:54] <eroomde> it's for cutting down commercial aerostats (blimps) that accidently detatch from their moorings
[14:54] <fsphil> are they not all connected though?
[14:54] <eroomde> so it has a gps which has a sort of defined geofence, and if the aerostat breaks away it'll turn on a hot wire which is attached to the top of the blimp skin
[14:54] <eroomde> that'll cut a nice big slit and it will deflate
[14:54] <eroomde> fsphil: they are connected on the right hand edge
[14:55] <eroomde> where that bit of top copper sticks up from the smps
[14:55] <nick_> eroomde: where will you get the board made?
[14:55] <eroomde> they all come back to that point in the end
[14:55] <eroomde> nick_: pcb-pool for the prototype and probably a chinese outfit for a larger batch once the prototype has been tested
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[14:57] <Darkside> i have a friend in shenzhen who does all my pcbs now
[14:57] <Darkside> great prices too
[15:15] <eroomde> hopeless bot
[15:15] <eroomde> http://henningkarlsen.com/electronics/library.php?id=37
[15:15] <eroomde> potentially useful for some people
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[16:02] <nick_> How much should I budget in helium costs for a launch?
[16:05] <daveake> £65 or so depending on how much you need
[16:06] <nick_> And balloons are ~£30?
[16:06] <daveake> What size?
[16:07] <eroomde> more than £30 unless you want something smaller than usual
[16:07] <chris_99> is £65 including rental of cylinder daveake
[16:08] <daveake> yes
[16:08] <daveake> Helium: http://balloonhelium.co.uk/
[16:08] <daveake> Balloons: http://randomsolutions.co.uk/Random_Aerospace/Balloons.html
[16:08] <nick_> We'd get He from BOC I guess
[16:09] <nick_> Hmm
[16:09] <daveake> If you have a BOC account *and* you get a healthy discount, then yes. Otherwise cheaper to use somewhere like ^^
[16:09] <nick_> I think the department gets a lot from BOC
[16:09] <daveake> OK
[16:10] <daveake> depends on their discount. I have a BOC acct no discount and it's cheaper to buy elsewhere
[16:10] <eroomde> nick_: yes for sure go internal
[16:10] <eroomde> CUSf gets all its He free from BOC
[16:10] <daveake> that's a good discount :)
[16:11] <nick_> How do I know which balloon is needed?
[16:11] <eroomde> yes
[16:11] <eroomde> given at the peak when i was there we were getting through about 30m^3 a week
[16:11] <daveake> eek
[16:11] <eroomde> and about 120m^3 one week
[16:11] <fsphil> what daveake said
[16:12] <fsphil> so that's where it's all gone
[16:12] <daveake> lol
[16:12] <daveake> That's well over £1000
[16:12] <daveake> nick for balloon size start with payload weight and how high you want it to go
[16:13] <daveake> Have a play with the burst calculator
[16:13] <eroomde> yes it is well over £1000
[16:13] <eroomde> we are very greatful to them
[16:13] <eroomde> but equally it's about 0.001 physics-department-usage-days of He
[16:13] <daveake> As an e.g., a 1kg payload and 1kg balloon should get you about 100,000 feet
[16:14] <fsphil> getting 100000 feet will make 50000 people very angry
[16:14] <fsphil> and fall over
[16:14] <nick_> Where's the burst calculator?
[16:15] <eroomde> cusf.co.uk/burst_calc
[16:15] <eroomde> or not
[16:16] <daveake> http://www.cusf.co.uk/calc/
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[16:17] <eroomde> i notice methane has been added as a gas in the dropdown
[16:17] <daveake> Special request by number10 :p
[16:18] <eroomde> it would be a fun thing to do
[16:19] <eroomde> actually the performance is ok too
[16:19] <eroomde> 1000g/1000g @ 3ms = 28km burst
[16:21] <nick_> I mentioned H to my supervisor and he got very worried.
[16:21] <nick_> (mostly that he'd have to fill out a lot of safety forms)
[16:22] <daveake> Yeah, it's dangerous. You can get a nasty cut from the edge of one of those forms
[16:24] <daveake> eroomde H2 vs He vs CH4 could be fun
[16:26] <chris_99> who sells hydrogen?
[16:26] <daveake> BOC
[16:27] <chris_99> is it a lot cheaper?
[16:27] <daveake> Half He
[16:27] <daveake> But you do need to be reasonably careful with it
[16:27] <daveake> see the ukhas wiki page
[16:28] <chris_99> yeah, i'd be somewhat worried about using it
[16:28] <daveake> also, you need to buy a regulator (£140) so you don't save money till you've done a few launches
[16:28] <chris_99> eek, £140 quid for a regulator
[16:28] <daveake> yup
[16:28] <chris_99> i just bought one for £38
[16:29] <daveake> Needs to be a H2 reg
[16:29] <chris_99> yeah, mines for beer gas
[16:29] <daveake> This one is a 2-stage; a single stage should be cheaper
[16:29] <daveake> :D
[16:30] <nick_> beer gas = nitrogen?
[16:30] <nick_> or CO2?
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[16:31] <chris_99> nitrogen+co2
[16:31] <chris_99> 70/30 mix for me
[16:32] <chris_99> makes the beer less fizzy than pure co2
[16:32] <nick_> I finally got to try some of my homebrew yesterday.
[16:32] <nick_> Take that glandular fever!
[16:32] <chris_99> hehe, a bitter?
[16:33] <eroomde> i finally installed my brooks saddly on my bike
[16:33] <eroomde> Take than non-hipster ed!
[16:33] <eroomde> saddle*
[16:33] <nick_> It's a kinda generic light ale.
[16:34] <nick_> Light and medium malt extract and ... I forget the hops I used.
[16:34] <chris_99> good for summer :)
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[16:35] <eroomde> daveake: have you got the rain yet?
[16:35] <eroomde> just looking at raintoday.co.uk
[16:35] <eroomde> it's currently like the opening scene in stars wars
[16:35] <daveake> a few drops
[16:35] <eroomde> i'm tempted to leave the bike here and catch a lift home
[16:36] <nick_> I planned to brew another batch by now but had a little over 2 months when I wasn't allowed to drink.
[16:36] <nick_> Now it will wait until I move house.
[16:36] <nick_> There's a little rain here
[16:38] <eroomde> i'm about 20 miles weast of you nick_
[16:38] <eroomde> so it guess that gives me some time
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[16:53] <G0DJA> GE all
[16:54] <nick_> hi
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[17:23] <eroomde> Upu: pingadie pong
[17:23] <eroomde> apangpang-pizzle
[17:23] <Upu> wibble ?
[17:24] <eroomde> yo
[17:24] <Upu> evening
[17:24] <eroomde> i wonder if an exchange for a pint or two next time i see you, you might have a go with your rendering magic at my board?
[17:24] <Upu> lol sure send it over
[17:24] <Upu> what colour/PCB thickness ?
[17:25] <eroomde> what email addy should i send it to?
[17:25] <Upu> upuaut@gmail.com
[17:25] <eroomde> 1.6, green (though might try it out in black after the prototype)
[17:25] <Upu> :)
[17:25] <eroomde> just brd or brd and sch?
[17:25] <Upu> brd
[17:25] <eroomde> kk
[17:26] <eroomde> sent
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[17:57] <eroomde> pcb done
[17:57] <eroomde> i get to leave work early today
[17:57] <eroomde> woo
[17:57] <eroomde> right ttfn
[17:57] <eroomde> oh god it's 7
[17:58] <fsphil> that's not early :)
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[18:40] <fsphil> r2x0t: can you tell what kind of sonde this is? http://i.imgur.com/V0C5A.png http://www.sanslogic.co.uk/files/digital-sonde-20120614-1800.wav
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[19:00] <Laurenceb_> any upcoming launches?
[19:02] Action: SpeedEvil had a massive lump of cheese and a bananna, but that was some hours ago now.
[19:02] <Laurenceb_> i fried an stm32f4, not sure if it will taste nice
[19:02] <Laurenceb_> it is in 2 halves now
[19:03] <Laurenceb_> luckily i have a reel of 100
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[19:05] <SpeedEvil> Put it on backwards?
[19:05] <Laurenceb_> put power in backwards and overvoltage
[19:05] <SpeedEvil> Ah.
[19:06] <Laurenceb_> looks like bond wires vaporised, blowing off top of the package and exposing the die
[19:06] <SpeedEvil> QFDN?
[19:06] <SpeedEvil> QFN
[19:07] <Laurenceb_> LQFP64
[19:07] <SpeedEvil> ah
[19:07] <Laurenceb_> lots of silicon and carbonised plastic
[19:10] <Laurenceb_> its funny - i did the same thing to a board with a Ti regulator and no damage
[19:10] <Laurenceb_> even tho they both got -15v
[19:10] <Laurenceb_> cheap LDO failed
[19:12] <r2x0t> fsphil: this is satellite, not a sonde
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[19:13] <Laurenceb_> i now know a very expensive way to do diy fireworks
[19:15] <nigelvh> I once did the same thing to a TO92 package transistor. Popped the whole front off.
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[19:28] <Upu-G4NOK> Evening
[19:28] <Upu-G4NOK> anyone used an ICOM with dl-fldigi ?
[19:29] <Upu-G4NOK> Got a IC-910 here using a CI-V connector
[19:29] <Upu-G4NOK> COM1 19200
[19:29] <Upu-G4NOK> works in HRD
[19:29] <Upu-G4NOK> works in dl-fldigi initially but then freezes
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[19:32] Nick change: Elwell_ -> Elwell
[19:34] <Laurenceb_> ive only used the ic-1000
[19:34] <Laurenceb_> works fine for me
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[19:43] <Laurenceb_> try the mailing list, seems quite active
[19:43] Action: Laurenceb_ is pissed of with adhesives suppliers
[19:43] <Laurenceb_> or lack of
[19:47] Action: Laurenceb_ wonders about diy corona devices
[19:47] <Laurenceb_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymeric_surfaces#Corona_treatment
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[19:50] <G0DJA> Upu-G4NOK what are you doing here? ;-)
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[19:55] <Lunar_Lander> evening
[20:02] <G0DJA> GE Lunar_Lander
[20:03] <Lunar_Lander> how are you?
[20:04] <G0DJA> Not bad, thanks for asking. Some work and family problems getting in the way of HAB developments I'm sorry to say
[20:04] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[20:04] <Lunar_Lander> today I worked on GPS parser programming
[20:04] <Lunar_Lander> have to test it on the hardware tomorrow
[20:05] <G0DJA> That's where things tend to fall over IME
[20:06] <fsphil> r2x0t: ah thanks, didn't realise there where satellites around those frequencies
[20:06] <Lunar_Lander> you mean like the GPS is the most difficult thing?
[20:06] <Lunar_Lander> hi fsphil r2x0t
[20:11] <nigelvh> Lunar_Lander: I'm pretty certain he means that things tend to fail when you try them on the actual hardware.
[20:12] <Lunar_Lander> ah yeah
[20:12] <Laurenceb_> nice
[20:12] <Lunar_Lander> like the airborne mode switching program
[20:12] <Laurenceb_> someone has done a phd on solving the adhesives issue i currently have
[20:12] <fsphil> hullo Lunar_Lander
[20:12] <Laurenceb_> thats... encouraging
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[20:19] <Laurenceb_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-R0_nXpc7I&feature=iv&src_vid=XbEoZzAsN60&annotation_id=annotation_968090
[20:19] <nick_> I need to write a configuration parser. I wish I could do it in python :)
[20:28] #highaltitude: mode change '+o jonsowman' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
[20:28] #highaltitude: mode change '-b *!*heathkid@unaffiliated/heathkid' by jonsowman!~jonsowman@kryten.hexoc.com
[20:28] #highaltitude: mode change '-o jonsowman' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
[20:38] <eroomde> what did poor heathkid do?
[20:39] <jonsowman> heh just connection problems early this morning
[20:39] <jonsowman> just PMed him and he just PMed back and said it's fixed
[20:39] <number10> had a problem with intermittent connection
[20:39] <jonsowman> eroomde: made a new Joey today
[20:40] <eroomde> oh cool
[20:40] <eroomde> yeah sorry about that
[20:40] <eroomde> ...
[20:40] <jonsowman> haha not your fault
[20:40] <jonsowman> i was going to do it anyway with new crystals
[20:40] <jonsowman> except the radio bit's not working at the moment
[20:40] <eroomde> at least it dissappeared it style
[20:40] <eroomde> at mach 3
[20:40] <jonsowman> haha
[20:40] <jonsowman> true
[20:40] <jonsowman> i don't think the PA is turning on
[20:40] <jonsowman> also not sure if the oscillator is running but I need a scope...
[20:42] <eroomde> oscillators are tricky
[20:42] <eroomde> scoping them anyway
[20:43] <eroomde> without loading them too much
[20:43] <jonsowman> yeah, i managed to scope it without stopping it due to scope capacitance on the old joey
[20:44] <jonsowman> after my small fail of not grounding the diode anodes :P
[20:44] <jonsowman> the PLL was just zooming around everywhere
[20:44] <eroomde> oh details
[20:44] <jonsowman> :D
[20:46] <eroomde> sent off that pcb today
[20:47] <jonsowman> cool :) where?
[20:47] <eroomde> should have it populated and tested by this time next week hopefully
[20:47] <eroomde> pcb-pool
[20:47] <eroomde> if it's fine then i'll do a batch through itead
[20:47] <eroomde> with black+ENIG
[20:47] <eroomde> because
[20:47] <eroomde> .
[20:48] <jonsowman> because it's pretty
[20:48] <eroomde> zackly
[20:48] <jonsowman> actually the surface planarity of the ENIG is helpful sometimes
[20:48] <eroomde> + high contrast with silkscreen
[20:48] <jonsowman> HASL can be a bit lumpy
[20:49] <jonsowman> for packages like that LNA/SAW filter
[20:49] <eroomde> it can be a bit of a hastle to solder
[20:49] <jonsowman> ha ha
[20:49] <jonsowman> :P
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[21:01] <Laurenceb_> because it looks like a mac pro
[21:05] <eroomde> ?
[21:06] <eroomde> oh pcbs
[21:06] <eroomde> yes i thought about a glowing apple logo on the case
[21:06] <eroomde> between the plated black variants (as opposed to olive drab) of the mil-spec connectors we use
[21:06] <Laurenceb_> yeah the black motherboards
[21:08] <Laurenceb_> arg this was a bad idea
[21:09] <eroomde> ?
[21:09] <Laurenceb_> im trying to source adhesives for a stupidly overcomplex device consisting of polyamide flexipcb and silicone molded parts
[21:09] <Laurenceb_> in a ridiculous multilayer stackup
[21:10] <Laurenceb_> no rite-lok ac-78 _anywhere_
[21:10] <Laurenceb_> and 3m sales reps seem to be dead, no reply for 4 days
[21:10] <eroomde> why?
[21:11] <Laurenceb_> needs it as a surface activator to get the parts to bond
[21:11] <nick_> Until recently I had good access to the 3M employee's store.
[21:12] <eroomde> why tho in a more abstract sense
[21:12] <Laurenceb_> oh - its a medical sensor
[21:12] <eroomde> why do you need flexipcbs in silicon things?
[21:12] <Laurenceb_> its a spectrometer in a cuff
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[21:13] <Laurenceb_> using my multi led spectrometer and stm32 board - on github
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[21:13] <Laurenceb_> where it shouldnt really be as its a commercial project :P
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[21:13] <Laurenceb_> i dont really think anyone is going to replicate it somehow
[21:14] <jcoxon> evening all
[21:14] <eroomde> yo
[21:14] <number10> hi
[21:16] <Laurenceb_> i think at this point the sane option is to patent it and sell the patent to 3M
[21:16] <Laurenceb_> :P
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[21:21] Action: Laurenceb_ is reading documentation on CE compliant CE stickers
[21:21] <Laurenceb_> dawg
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[21:21] <Upu> if you want a graphic indication of the QRM around 434.075 : https://dl.dropbox.com/u/63720513/Images/HAB/qrm.png
[21:21] <Lunar_Lander> hi Upu
[21:22] <eroomde> Laurenceb_: so things have probably changed in he last 2 years
[21:22] <Upu> evening Lunar
[21:22] <eroomde> are you not doing a PhD anymore?
[21:22] <Upu> look how much quieter 650 is
[21:23] <Laurenceb_> hehe
[21:23] <Laurenceb_> technically i am
[21:23] <Laurenceb_> "sponsored"
[21:24] <Laurenceb_> which seems to involve me doing everything whilst the other staff play golf
[21:24] <Laurenceb_> http://www.monicahealthcare.com/
[21:25] <Laurenceb_> "Welcome to the Next Generation..." its funny cuz its a pxa255 from 2006
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[21:27] <eroomde> i can see they have you sold on the corporate vision
[21:28] <Laurenceb_> they sell those for £6K each, BOM is about £400
[21:28] <eroomde> i've seen quite a few 'medical device' companies that are someone with money + some PhDs in a university dept. they often seem to generate a bit more heat than light
[21:28] <eroomde> that's not far off standard
[21:28] <eroomde> when you consider time, rates, risk etc
[21:29] <eroomde> things that are little more than hab balloon trackers would sell for about £2k in B2B
[21:29] <Laurenceb_> its all the documentation etc
[21:29] <Laurenceb_> its a nightmare
[21:29] <eroomde> you should build rockets
[21:29] <eroomde> the paperwork is much easier
[21:30] <Laurenceb_> i want to concentrate on design and manufacturing
[21:30] <Laurenceb_> but im being pushed to get a product out asap
[21:32] <eroomde> i've got the whole game figured anyway,you'll be pleased to know
[21:32] <eroomde> consult for 2 days a week at about £100/hr
[21:33] <eroomde> do you own shizzle for the other 2 or 3 days
[21:33] <Laurenceb_> nice plan :D
[21:33] <Laurenceb_> 3M have medical stuff wrapped up - its the only practical supplier if you want the paperwork to be at all feasible for loads of stuff
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[21:42] <nick_> My mother in law worked on some fun 3M medical products.
[21:42] <nick_> Including the disinfectant that set a few patients on fire because doctors don't read instructions.
[21:44] <jcoxon> nick_, doctors don't read instructions
[21:44] <nick_> Some patients sued 3M but their response was RTFM
[21:45] <Laurenceb_> yes, thats why they have manuals
[21:45] <Lunar_Lander> hello jcoxon
[21:46] <fsphil> that's good to know jcoxon :)
[21:48] <nick_> I hope doctors read the "don't cut off this leg" instruction.
[21:48] <jcoxon> nah
[21:49] <fsphil> I've heard of wrong bits being cut off because of mixed up instructions
[21:49] <eroomde> there's a sign at work that says 'instructions are merely the manufacturer's opinion'
[21:49] <fsphil> lolo
[21:49] <fsphil> whoop, redundant o
[21:49] <Lunar_Lander> XD
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[22:01] <jcoxon> ummm whats up with the graffeti on spacenear.us
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[22:03] <jonsowman> no idae jcoxon
[22:06] <Lunar_Lander> site hacked=!
[22:06] <Lunar_Lander> ?!
[22:06] <Upu> haha
[22:06] <Upu> err no
[22:06] <Upu> thats AVA with no proper lock
[22:06] <Upu> sorry
[22:07] <Upu> I should break the checksum when the lock !=3
[22:09] <DanielRichman> best solution: add fix_age to your telemetry somewhere: time since the gps gave you the data you're sending in seconds, or -1 if it's garbage from first power on
[22:09] <Lunar_Lander> oh
[22:09] <Upu> ok
[22:10] <jcoxon> i just send locj
[22:10] <jcoxon> lock*
[22:10] <Upu> I put lock in mine
[22:10] <Upu> can you put a filter on habitat to not display if lock !=3 ?
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[22:19] <DanielRichman> yeah. It'll be a "quick hack to make it work now and we'll implement it properly later" thing, but that's ok
[22:19] <DanielRichman> / have been planning to add something like that for a while
[22:20] <Upu> ok cheers
[22:21] <DanielRichman> so what do I need to change: where is this new field and what does it look like?
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[22:33] <Lunar_Lander> Upu, ?
[22:38] <fsphil> most sensible people in the UK are asleep
[22:39] <Laurenceb_> yeah my job is so awesome
[22:39] <Laurenceb_> got into an email agrument with the boss at 11.40pm
[22:40] <Laurenceb_> "you do the vat forms..." "no you do the vat forms"
[22:42] <Laurenceb_> "maybe we should go to bed" - was my last email
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[22:56] <Lunar_Lander> xD
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[23:17] <SpeedEvil> :)
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[00:00] --- Fri Jun 15 2012