highaltitude.log.20120514

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[00:35] <SolarNRG> Beddy byes for Snoozey Pies!
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[06:59] <jcoxon> morning
[06:59] <jcoxon> sunny but still windy :-(
[07:06] <number10> morning
[07:06] <number10> windy all week by the looks of the forcast
[07:11] <jcoxon> indeed
[07:30] <jcoxon> ping UpuMobile
[07:47] <UpuMobile> morning
[07:48] <UpuMobile> ping jcoxon
[07:49] <jcoxon> hey
[07:49] <jcoxon> you actually mobile?
[07:49] <jcoxon> was wondering if you were free to discuss conference planning
[07:50] <UpuMobile> well sort of I'm on holiday in the Lakes but the cottage owners have kindly provided ADSL
[07:51] <UpuMobile> can we discuss when I get back this weekend ?
[07:51] <jcoxon> oh yeah it can wait
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[07:51] <jcoxon> np
[07:51] <UpuMobile> just about to set off walking :)
[07:51] <jcoxon> have fun
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[07:53] <fsphil> no fair, sitting in an office with no windows :p
[07:55] <UpuMobile> thats technically a cupboard
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[08:06] <number10> going high today UpuMobile ?
[08:07] <UpuMobile> lazy one
[08:07] <UpuMobile> walking about 3 miles up the valley, getting the stream train to the coast
[08:07] <UpuMobile> wandering around there having some lunch then stream train back
[08:07] <number10> nice
[08:07] <number10> sounds like a good day out
[08:09] <UpuMobile> we've done 2 days of walking so a more relaxed day is called for today
[08:10] <UpuMobile> ok afk
[08:10] <number10> Ros would like to see more video of Charlie!
[08:10] <UpuMobile> lol
[08:10] <number10> :)
[08:10] <UpuMobile> I'll see what I can do :)
[08:11] <UpuMobile> Should have done one last night, Charlie being a stubborn sh?t and refusing to go out in the wind and rain
[08:11] <UpuMobile> really afk now
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[08:44] <jcoxon> gosh i really hate the sound of my own voice
[08:45] <number10> we can tell you if its really bad jcoxon ;)
[08:46] <jcoxon> hehe
[08:46] <jcoxon> its 19mb
[08:46] <number10> when we review your pico video
[08:46] <jcoxon> pretty much finished
[08:48] <number10> interesting news story - http://www.norwichadvertiser24.co.uk/news/norfolk_police_search_for_escaped_weather_balloon_1_1356357
[08:48] <number10> what did we send up at that weekend
[08:50] <jcoxon> not that i'm aware of
[08:50] <jcoxon> though could be met office
[08:50] <jcoxon> or there is a captive balloon over at west tofts (army)
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[08:51] <number10> ah, I had a bit of a shock when I saw headline - thiught someone found Buzz from last weekend
[08:52] <jcoxon> hehe
[08:52] <jcoxon> just got an email from my broadband company saying that i'm approaching my download quota
[08:52] <jcoxon> for the month
[08:52] <jcoxon> but the billing period finishes tonight
[08:53] <fsphil> I hate having limits
[08:54] <fsphil> even though I've rarely gone over them. still knowing they're there makes me worried about downloading big files
[08:54] <jcoxon> my limit is only daytime
[08:54] <jcoxon> so if i've got a big download i can do it late at night and it doesn't count
[08:54] <fsphil> ah, not so bad
[09:02] <MrScienceMan> x
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[09:11] <fsphil> marks the spot?
[09:27] <MrScienceMan> usually
[09:52] <Darkside> horus launch tomorrow
[09:52] <Darkside> short launch, cutdown test
[09:52] <number10> triggered from ground Darkside ?
[09:53] <Darkside> yes
[09:55] <MrScienceMan> what cutdown mechanism you using?
[09:56] <Darkside> nichrome wire
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[10:22] <markdownunder> what time launch ?
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[10:40] <griffonbot> Received email: Lewis Howell "[UKHAS] Weather balloon"
[10:41] <griffonbot> Received email: James Coxon "Re: [UKHAS] Weather balloon"
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[10:42] <Darkside> markdownunder: 1pmish
[10:43] <Darkside> SA time
[10:43] <fsphil> too fast for me jcoxon
[10:43] <fsphil> had the send button pressed :p
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[10:44] <jcoxon> i moderated teh email
[10:44] <jcoxon> so it was easy to reply
[10:44] <fsphil> ah
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[11:16] <griffonbot> Received email: Lewis Howell "[UKHAS] Re: Weather balloon"
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[11:29] <Darkside> anyone have a max-6q board and a scope?
[11:30] <Matt_soton> max-6q being upu's ones?
[11:30] <Darkside> yeah
[11:30] <Darkside> i want to see the current draw
[11:30] <Darkside> see if theres any current spikes
[11:31] <Matt_soton> well i dont really have any way to measure current except just putting the probe on the power pin
[11:31] <Matt_soton> and hoping there is enough rsistance in the wiring
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[11:39] <Laurenceb> http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=21607606&postcount=988
[11:40] <Laurenceb> ^pmsl
[11:40] <SpeedEvil> :)
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[12:26] <SolarNRG> Afternoon
[12:27] <fsphil> hi hi. aaah, lunch time :)
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[12:35] <SolarNRG> bon appetit
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[13:03] <fsphil> hehe, rain's so heavy I can't hear other people in the office over the noise
[13:03] <Darkside> haha
[13:03] <fsphil> gonna find a window :)
[13:07] <SpeedEvil> It's lovely and sunny here.
[13:07] <fsphil> that was impressive. the car park went from dry to flood in about 2 minutes
[13:08] <SpeedEvil> :)
[13:08] <SpeedEvil> It was very rainy yesterday
[13:08] <SpeedEvil> http://www.yr.no/place/United_Kingdom/Scotland/Glenrothes/hour_by_hour.html
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[13:35] <SolarNRG> Do any of you know anything about making alloys or superalloys?
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[14:17] <eroomde> hello SolarNRG
[14:18] <eroomde> i think it probably depends a great deal on the application and materials
[14:18] <eroomde> making a super bronze is probably a very different challenge to making a super inconel
[14:18] <eroomde> but i've done a metallurgy course in my degree and vaguely remember the concepts
[14:25] <SolarNRG> Well I'm about to do my first basic metal casting
[14:25] <SolarNRG> I'm going to do a lost wax gear for solar robots
[14:25] <eroomde> does that require super-alloys?
[14:25] <SolarNRG> i don't care what the reprap and linuxcnc dudes say, my wax copies of a 3d printed gear mesh
[14:26] <SolarNRG> Well to start off with I'd like to make a low temp melting alloy that'll be tougher than aluminium
[14:26] <SolarNRG> What do I do, just mix up the powders, melt them, stir and pour?
[14:26] <SolarNRG> Is that it?
[14:26] <SolarNRG> Like baking a cake?
[14:26] <eroomde> that might work
[14:26] <SolarNRG> But at 900c
[14:26] <eroomde> but a lot of the stregnth of alloys comes from heat treatment
[14:26] <SolarNRG> "heat treatment"??
[14:26] <SolarNRG> Please elaborate
[14:26] <eroomde> yes
[14:26] <eroomde> so
[14:27] <eroomde> it's all about crystals
[14:27] <eroomde> metals have a crystalline structure
[14:27] <SolarNRG> I know if you melt something in and then u dip it in ice as soon as its cast, it'll be like a perfect crystal, hard and brittle
[14:27] <eroomde> the mechanical properties of the metal are quite dependant on the size and shape of these crystals as much as anything else
[14:27] <SolarNRG> I also know if you wrap it in perlite and take a week to cool it'll be soft and bendy
[14:27] <eroomde> sure
[14:27] <eroomde> so that's basically what heat treatment means
[14:28] <SolarNRG> Am I correct in assuming that for a good balance I need to cool the part off with something better than air, but not as good as perlite?
[14:28] <eroomde> except with allowys you often want to go to a specific temp and take a specific cooling rate to get the right mixture
[14:28] <eroomde> have you come across eutectics and phase diagrams on your metallurgy travels?
[14:28] <Laurenceb> when blacksmithing they usually just drop in some cold water :P
[14:28] <eroomde> it's more complex than 'good balance'
[14:29] <eroomde> you have to know what you're trying to do and what kind of crystal structure you want and follow that
[14:30] <eroomde> this is a good introduction http://material-sciences.blogspot.co.uk/2010/11/mechanical-properties-of-materials.html
[14:31] <eroomde> http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/engr322/Exams/AllExams/S08/ENGR322MT2.html
[14:31] <eroomde> take a look at 3c
[14:31] <eroomde> these cooling diagrams are important
[14:31] <eroomde> it should make it apparent that the allow structure you end up with is a function of your cooling rate
[14:32] <SolarNRG> So you can have alloys whose melting point is lower than either of the two elements individually if they are mixed at the right ratio?
[14:32] <SolarNRG> A bit like epoxy resin
[14:32] <eroomde> if you can conceptually grok the phase diagrams and the cooling curves, you have all the tools to be able to analytically make the allow you want. then it's a question of actually doing it
[14:33] <eroomde> SolarNRG: yes exactly
[14:33] <eroomde> and the point at which you have the lowest solidifying temperature in a mixture ratio is called the eutectiuc point
[14:33] <eroomde> eutectic*
[14:34] <kokey> making alloys sounds hardcore to me, especially considering that I haven't cracked getting an oven to the right temperature for pizza making yet
[14:34] <eroomde> i would never attempt it
[14:35] <fsphil> thankfully I like burnt pizza
[14:35] <eroomde> needs equipment and needs an enjoyment of materials science. i have neither
[14:35] <eroomde> it was my worst module
[14:35] <kokey> fsphil: my problem is getting the oven hot enough
[14:35] <eroomde> yes no domestic ovens are hot enough for pizza
[14:35] <eroomde> they gave half way if they're lucky
[14:35] <eroomde> get*
[14:36] <eroomde> a decent pizza oven is one of my life's aspirations
[14:36] <SolarNRG> I was thinking of a stainless bowl on a stovetop element outdoors surrounded by firebrick and a 10a fuse
[14:36] <kokey> problem is I got a glass top stove which is said to get damaged if I put a pizza stone on it
[14:36] <eroomde> you want the IR from above anyway
[14:36] <eroomde> ideally from a pizza oven stone roof
[14:36] <fsphil> ah, the pizza I make probably wouldn't qualify as a real pizza
[14:37] <eroomde> kokey, as a fellow london foodie, have you been to Franco Manca in brixton or chiswick or recently stratford?
[14:37] <kokey> eroomde: nope, actually
[14:37] <kokey> stratford, that's quite handy
[14:37] <eroomde> it's MEGA
[14:37] <eroomde> hang on
[14:37] <eroomde> best pizza i've ever had
[14:38] <kokey> ah, I read about it but it was too far
[14:38] <SolarNRG> What's a good strong alloy I can make that's better than aluminium and is reachable with a stovetop element, i.e. <1000ºc
[14:38] <eroomde> kokey: http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/wordofmouth/video/2010/feb/17/how-to-make-perfect-pizza
[14:38] <kokey> shame we moved from shoreditch to watford, now stratford is also far
[14:38] <eroomde> yeah their new one is in stratford westgate
[14:38] <eroomde> or westfield, or whatever it's called
[14:38] <eroomde> the dystopian shopping thing
[14:38] <kokey> eroomde: have you seen the heston blumenthal piece on pizza?
[14:38] <eroomde> not sure i want to....
[14:39] <eroomde> SolarNRG: i'm not sure if there are any
[14:39] <eroomde> sorry
[14:39] <kokey> it's about what I know about pizza plus a little more
[14:39] <SolarNRG> How good would bronze gears be?
[14:39] <SolarNRG> Copper and tin
[14:39] <SolarNRG> 920c
[14:39] <kokey> though I did track some forums down about various dough recipes in particular from well known baking guides
[14:39] <eroomde> although if you can be more specific with exactly what properties you want to maximise ('strength' is a bit vague in material science) then you might be in better shape
[14:40] <eroomde> kokey: i'm a fully paid-up sourdough base afficionado
[14:40] <eroomde> that video i just linked to is pornographic
[14:40] <kokey> the one I like, is the one with not that much sour so it tastes a little bit like matzos
[14:41] <kokey> but it's not to everyone's taste
[14:41] <eroomde> hopefully not like the texture tho!
[14:42] <kokey> hmmm, I'm wondering about a rotating platform like mini pizza oven
[14:43] <kokey> with a very very hot heating element of some sort
[14:43] <NigeyS> pizza..dominos all the way :p
[14:43] <kokey> dominos does pizza?
[14:43] <fsphil> next time I make mine own I'll take a pic :)
[14:43] Action: NigeyS awaits a pic of some coal from fsphil
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[14:44] <kokey> topping, I can do fine, I'm already nuts about tomatoes so I tend to spot nice ones
[14:44] <kokey> but it's the bread, that's the pickle
[14:44] <eroomde> kokey: get theyself to FM
[14:44] <eroomde> it was all about the tomatoes for me
[14:44] <eroomde> just explosively flavoursome and fruity
[14:44] <kokey> ah that sounds full of win
[14:45] <eroomde> and then a bit of basil and some mozarella
[14:45] <eroomde> it was win
[14:45] <eroomde> and the slightly hoppy tasting base
[14:45] <eroomde> they sell their margherittas for about £4.50 too
[14:45] <fsphil> that's not bad
[14:45] <kokey> hmmmm, hoppy
[14:45] <eroomde> not trying to make a buck, just doing something very simple very well
[14:45] <kokey> I wonder, if that's the taste I think of as reminding me of matzos
[14:46] <eroomde> a slightly bit of char and a slight bit of hoppy/fermentiness
[14:46] <fsphil> food seems somewhat more expensive in london than anywhere else
[14:46] <eroomde> but not too sour
[14:46] <eroomde> was great
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[14:46] <NigeyS> eroomde, you make ure own burgers very often ?
[14:46] <eroomde> everything is expensive in london, that's why i was so pleased to find this place
[14:46] <eroomde> NigeyS: sometimes yes
[14:46] <eroomde> trick is to use salt not breadcrumbs
[14:46] <Darkside> eroomde: this the place you took me to?
[14:46] <NigeyS> keep meaning to try it
[14:46] <eroomde> here endeth the burger l4sson
[14:46] <kokey> yeah eating out in London is not cheap most of the time, but if you want to find interesting and exceptional stuff to eat, London's great
[14:46] <eroomde> Darkside: yes
[14:46] <Darkside> aha
[14:47] <eroomde> i take all my dates there
[14:47] <Darkside> that was a pretty awesome pizza
[14:47] <NigeyS> lol
[14:47] <Darkside> haha
[14:47] <kokey> haha, was about to mention the salt and no breadcrumbs (or anything) thing
[14:47] <eroomde> heston high-5
[14:47] <Darkside> ok sleep time for me
[14:47] <Darkside> running a prac tomorrow morning..
[14:47] <kokey> my mom always did it that way
[14:47] <Darkside> then balloon launch in the afternoon
[14:48] <eroomde> g'luck
[14:48] <SolarNRG> Has any hobbiest ever managed to cast their own inconel de lavel nossel or is it really beyond amateur rocketry?
[14:48] <eroomde> i don't know
[14:48] <eroomde> BUT
[14:48] <kokey> but coming from south africa, mixing beef down with anything apart from spice is sacrilege
[14:48] <NigeyS> :o
[14:48] <eroomde> one usually doesn't use inconnel for nozzels
[14:48] <eroomde> woah spelling
[14:48] <eroomde> especially not the throats
[14:48] <eroomde> inconel is not very good at withstanding that kind of heat
[14:49] <SolarNRG> From what I've been reading, this highly expensive substance called Tantalum Hafnium Carbide is ideal as a coating
[14:49] <SolarNRG> Its got a hotter melting point than diamond
[14:49] <Zuph> Trick for a good burger is to grind your own meat :-p
[14:49] <SolarNRG> It costs 9,000 dollars a kg
[14:49] <SolarNRG> goodfellows sell it
[14:49] <eroomde> it's probably not necessary
[14:49] <eroomde> really
[14:49] <NigeyS> Zuph, dam really? i was just gonna use ready ground steak mince..lol
[14:49] <SolarNRG> Melting point of 4216k
[14:49] <SolarNRG> yeah
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[14:49] <eroomde> unless you're after enormous combustion chamber pressures
[14:50] <eroomde> i would forget all about anything to do with it if your objective is to make a working liquid rocket engine
[14:50] <eroomde> far more important just to get something that works first
[14:51] <Zuph> NigeyS: Grinding your own may be going a little overboard, but it sure makes a tasty burger. A good butcher should grind whatever you want for you.
[14:51] <SolarNRG> Sure, can I use a fish tank pump?
[14:51] <eroomde> and unless you really know what you want, either have an ablative chamber liner and throat like graphite or phenolic, or make it out of copper and cool it
[14:51] <NigeyS> Zuph, dam hard to find any butchers here in cardiff, let alone a good one, the supermarkets have made them all extinct :(
[14:51] <SolarNRG> I got a graphite crucible, can I machine it out of that?
[14:52] <eroomde> I don't know if you're trolling sometimes or not SolarNRG
[14:52] <eroomde> fish pump?
[14:52] <SolarNRG> I'm not trolling, I'm just at the lowest level of development
[14:52] <eroomde> oh for fuel pumping you mean?
[14:52] <SolarNRG> I'll show you what I've done so far
[14:52] <eroomde> at a small scale pressure is usually better (well, much easier) than pumps
[14:52] <SolarNRG> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CReRQb_UZj0
[14:53] <SolarNRG> As you see I am familliar with "guidance systems"
[14:53] <eroomde> so a helium tanks dumping into the oxidiser and fuel tanks to pressure them into the combustion chambre
[14:53] <Zuph> NigeyS: Weird. Cardiff isn't much smaller than Louisville, and I can think of 3 off the top of my head.
[14:53] <SolarNRG> Didn't the V2 use nitrous to drive the turbopump?
[14:53] <eroomde> you only use turbopumps for bigger rockets because making such huge fuel tanks able to withstand 200bar would be impossibly heavy
[14:53] <Zuph> NigeyS: Even some supermarkets have a decent full-service butcher counter.
[14:53] <SolarNRG> I've been to the Imperial war museum and I've seen the guts of a real V2 rocket
[14:54] <NigeyS> bah no fair :( we had some great family butchers here, but alas all closed down :/ best i can get is asda or tesco!
[14:54] <eroomde> sure - v2 is the sort of scale where pumps make sense
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[14:54] <eroomde> but i don't think that's the sort of scale you want to be experimenting with for your first rocket
[14:54] <SolarNRG> I've also seen the guts of the polaris, far more complex
[14:54] <SolarNRG> I could see how the V2 worked
[14:54] <SolarNRG> You got two tanks
[14:54] <SolarNRG> oxidizer, fuel
[14:54] <SolarNRG> a smaller tank of nitrous to drive the two pumps
[14:55] <SolarNRG> lots of thin metal pipes going into the combustion chamber via pre-burners
[14:55] <SolarNRG> There were bypass ducts
[14:55] <kokey> what a terrible waste of nitrous
[14:55] <SolarNRG> So excess fuel and oxidizer could be dumped after the engine
[14:55] <eroomde> again cos you're not flying you don't need any of the bypass stuff
[14:55] <SolarNRG> It was this black ovoid storage tank
[14:55] <eroomde> and because you're not doing hugely long burns you don't need regenerative cooling - an ablative liner makes more sense for experimenting at a small scale i think
[14:56] <eroomde> OR you can do something very interesting and 3D print a combustion engine with the regen cooling channels printed in
[14:56] <SolarNRG> I think the V2 had neither regen nor ablative, its engine was jsut tungsten so it could withstand the temperature, it wasn't a great rocket but it hit london
[14:56] <eroomde> the guy at this is fascinating i think http://rocketmoonlighting.blogspot.co.uk/
[14:56] <SolarNRG> regen and ablative have the advantages of longer burn time
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[14:57] <SolarNRG> I think regen is the way to go for re-usability
[14:57] <SolarNRG> But ablative is great for expendible
[14:57] <eroomde> certainly yes
[14:57] <eroomde> also ablative is good for 'My First Biprop'
[14:57] <eroomde> regen adds in a lot of thermodynamics at the design stage, and it's easier to iterate than to dive in at the deep end
[14:57] <Laurenceb> bah you guys are tempting me to have a go at n-prize
[14:57] <eroomde> i think, anyway
[14:57] <SolarNRG> I can get a de lavel nossle+engine+combustion chamber 3d printed, but ABS will not be very good for anything other than water
[14:58] <Laurenceb> or at least n-prize class launchers
[14:58] <eroomde> you might be an old industry grey-beard who has no problems with the sums
[14:58] <eroomde> oh look further - he does them out of metal
[14:58] <eroomde> that was just a dry run
[14:58] <SolarNRG> But I'm getting a lot better with lost wax
[14:58] <SolarNRG> And once I've build an induction melter, I think I can melt metals into a lost wax cast
[14:59] <eroomde> just be wary of the rabbit hole that is metalurgy
[14:59] <SolarNRG> Metalurgy is something very few here know much about
[14:59] <SolarNRG> Robotics are familliar with beer can melting
[14:59] <SolarNRG> not suitable for rockets
[14:59] <eroomde> you are a bit at risk of saying 'i want to make a burger [to borrow our earlier conversation] so: what kind of grass shall i plant for my cow field?'
[15:00] <SolarNRG> LOL
[15:00] <SolarNRG> Surley aluminium would be useful for the outer shell, tanks, pipes, heat exchangers
[15:00] <eroomde> i.e. it's not really on the critical path for building an engine, if that's what you want to do
[15:00] <Laurenceb> SolarNRG: I designed a launcher for n-prize
[15:00] <SolarNRG> Did you?
[15:00] <SolarNRG> Regen or ablative?
[15:00] <Laurenceb> it was balloon launched and spin stabilised
[15:01] <eroomde> i'd just make a chamber out of a bit of machine scaffolding bar with an ablative liner and a graphite nozzle
[15:01] <SolarNRG> :O how high?
[15:01] <eroomde> and get something fired
[15:01] <Laurenceb> using off the shelf high power motors
[15:01] <Laurenceb> non of this faff
[15:01] <eroomde> that's enormously more important as a first pass than premature optimisation
[15:01] <SolarNRG> You bought one that already worked
[15:01] <SolarNRG> Fine
[15:01] <Laurenceb> no
[15:01] <SolarNRG> Engine I mean
[15:01] <Laurenceb> that would never reach orbit
[15:01] <eroomde> solids are blargh
[15:02] <eroomde> fine for weekends in a field
[15:02] <Laurenceb> you had to use a carbon fibre motor case
[15:02] <Laurenceb> and ablative nozzle
[15:02] <SolarNRG> From what I understand is you either need a lot of stages of solid to reach orbit or you use them as boosters because of their high ISP but really short burn time
[15:02] <Laurenceb> you can get 280sec with off the shelf reloads
[15:02] <eroomde> boosters are a stage
[15:02] <Laurenceb> at altitude
[15:03] <Laurenceb> with largish expansion
[15:03] <Laurenceb> easily good enough for orbit with two stages
[15:03] <eroomde> sure but something like LOX/Methane is 340 seconds if well designed
[15:03] <Laurenceb> yes exactly
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[15:04] <SolarNRG> I'm sort of intrigued by tri-prop because of its high ISP, but a bit scared of working with lithium and fluorine in my back yard
[15:04] <eroomde> don't even
[15:04] <eroomde> SolarNRG: have you ever read a book called Ignite!
[15:04] <eroomde> you would love it
[15:05] <SolarNRG> No but I've read the haynes workshop manual of the Saturn V backwards
[15:05] <eroomde> every rocket scientist in the world has read it, probably. it's wonderfully well written, a short history of rocket fuels
[15:05] <Laurenceb> i was kind of tempted to try for a n-prize a couple of years ago
[15:05] <Laurenceb> but its very silly
[15:05] <Laurenceb> and has attracted a bunch of fruitcases
[15:05] <eroomde> ignition, not ignite, sorry
[15:05] <Laurenceb> having said that the idea is interesting
[15:05] <eroomde> SolarNRG: http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CH4QFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Flibrary.sciencemadness.org%2Flibrary%2Fbooks%2Fignition.pdf&ei=RB-xT8LIEMaA8wP77b3ICQ&usg=AFQjCNFM7dqm-6LnFwbdAo4D-upA1Vy7WQ
[15:05] <SpeedEvil> Indeed.
[15:06] <eroomde> you will enjoy it
[15:06] <eroomde> and you will read about some of the dangers of handling these propellents
[15:06] <Laurenceb> "library.sciencemadness.org"
[15:06] <SpeedEvil> I pondered the other day that you can do a complete lunar capable navigation system in around 1cc
[15:06] <Laurenceb> appropriate url
[15:06] <SolarNRG> I have a suspicion that deuterium would make an awesome fuel, if only you could keep the reaction going and use it for direct thrust
[15:07] <SolarNRG> i.e. a nuclear fusion rocket with no neutron radiation
[15:07] <eroomde> there is a section on that
[15:07] <eroomde> in the book
[15:07] <eroomde> it was tested in the 70s
[15:07] <SolarNRG> In terms of energy, you could fly to Mars, land fly home in a single stage, if only you had the materials and the knowhow
[15:07] <Laurenceb> huh
[15:07] <Laurenceb> they had working fusion in the 70s ?!
[15:07] <SolarNRG> The closest I've seen is the WB6 by George Bussard for the US Navy
[15:08] <SolarNRG> He had 6 "donuts"
[15:08] <SolarNRG> And made a DD fusion ball for half a second
[15:08] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: Pulsed.
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[15:08] <Laurenceb> oh i see
[15:08] <SolarNRG> I've done a lot of research into microwaves
[15:08] <Laurenceb> of course there is my idea....
[15:08] <Laurenceb> solar therma balloon to orbit
[15:08] <Laurenceb> *thermal
[15:09] <SolarNRG> Here is one of my microwave experiments, I've videod 9 so far
[15:09] <SolarNRG> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_xM65BNQpE
[15:09] <Laurenceb> using ammonia fuel and a balloon/concentrator
[15:09] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: That is truly wacky.
[15:09] <SolarNRG> I like it because Bussard suggested microwaves are the key to igniting DD fusion
[15:09] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: If you can get it working.
[15:09] <Laurenceb> its borderline workable in some simulations i tried
[15:09] <Laurenceb> if you take ~20minutes to orbit
[15:09] <eroomde> SolarNRG: from the ignite book on the nuclear rocket engines
[15:09] <SolarNRG> Nerva?
[15:09] <Laurenceb> but needs ~2um aluminised mylar film
[15:09] <SolarNRG> Or Orion?
[15:09] <SpeedEvil> SolarNRG: You should essentially ignore all comments about fusion from before the age of decent computers.
[15:09] <eroomde> The Phoebus-2 series nuclear engines, under development, are
[15:09] <eroomde> expected to operate at the 250,000-pounds thrust level; greater than
[15:09] <eroomde> the thrust of the J-2 and the reactor power (thermal) will be about
[15:09] <eroomde> 5000 megawatts. This is twice the power generated by the Hoover
[15:09] <eroomde> dam and the reactor generating it is about the size of an office desk.
[15:09] <eroomde> An impressive little gadget.
[15:09] <Laurenceb> the microflight guys have used similar for indoor planes
[15:09] <eroomde> [end of quote]
[15:10] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: I'm damn impressed by SpaceX's new hopper. Can't wait to see that.
[15:10] <eroomde> can't wait to see them be fully reusable
[15:10] <eroomde> seems outlandish to me
[15:10] <Laurenceb> "kayaking4autism"
[15:10] <Laurenceb> ...
[15:10] <SolarNRG> That's me
[15:10] <SolarNRG> I raise money for people with Autism
[15:10] <eroomde> but then i work for a company doing an ssto spaceplane so who am i to talk
[15:10] <Laurenceb> interesting name :P
[15:10] <SpeedEvil> 'oops - we forgot that we diddn't have the full rocket ontop, so it took off at 108G'
[15:10] <Laurenceb> fair enough
[15:11] <SolarNRG> I kayaked from England to France and when I landed I said on the radio back to my rescue boat "houston, the eagle has landed"
[15:11] <chris_99> how long did that take you SolarNRG
[15:11] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: Is it properly SSTO, or are there any stages which drop off - wheels/... ?
[15:11] <eroomde> no
[15:11] <eroomde> properly ssto
[15:11] <eroomde> as in, land, refuel, go up again
[15:11] <Laurenceb> isnt there an issue driving wierd "loads" with microwave ovens?
[15:12] <SpeedEvil> Neat.
[15:12] <Laurenceb> you can screw the magnotron? or is that not true?
[15:12] <SolarNRG> I use a calcium silicate box, the box is electrically and thermally insulated, it stops arcing
[15:12] <SpeedEvil> Modern microwaves are very resistant to it
[15:12] <SolarNRG> Magnetite and silicon carbide are highly receptive to microwave energy
[15:12] <SolarNRG> so is water and fat
[15:12] <SolarNRG> and sodium polyacrylate
[15:13] <Laurenceb> integersting
[15:13] <SolarNRG> I'm not sure about hydrogen, not tested it
[15:13] <SolarNRG> But if it works, I'm sure Deuterium is identical
[15:13] <Laurenceb> what temperatures did you reach?
[15:13] <SolarNRG> About 400c with my magnetite test after an hour
[15:13] <Laurenceb> 1hour?!
[15:13] <SolarNRG> Yeah, not great results
[15:13] <Laurenceb> yeah
[15:14] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: It would be awesome if you get it to work - what are the estimates of time to first flight to orbit - if funded?
[15:14] <SolarNRG> But I'm honest with my findings
[15:14] <Laurenceb> id maybe try induction
[15:14] <SolarNRG> I'm doing resistive heating first
[15:14] <Laurenceb> cool
[15:14] <SolarNRG> I want to get something melted
[15:14] <eroomde> SpeedEvil: not sure, i think that will depend on phase 3
[15:14] <eroomde> of the order of 10 years though
[15:14] <SolarNRG> I'll do induction at a later date
[15:14] <Laurenceb> problem with resistive is the connections
[15:14] <SolarNRG> I'd love a vacuum furnace
[15:15] <SolarNRG> Or an electron beam melter,
[15:15] <SolarNRG> But I haven't the cash
[15:15] <Laurenceb> we have some vacuum inductive ovens at work
[15:15] <SolarNRG> I'm also looking into solar melting!
[15:15] <Laurenceb> seem simple enough
[15:15] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: I guess SpaceX getting reusable to work - the next logical step would be some form of airbreathing.
[15:15] <SolarNRG> :o
[15:15] <eroomde> that would be quite a departure
[15:15] <Laurenceb> eroomde: have some prototype composite panels been made?
[15:15] <Laurenceb> i cant remeber what it is - silicon carbide or something?
[15:15] <eroomde> if you're going to go straight up, i.e. completely fighting gravity, you need an awful lot of oxydant
[15:15] <SolarNRG> So if I posted you a wax model coated in molochite with 4 drags and 4 copes and a pour hole at the top, you could pour in some special metals for me?
[15:16] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: Indeed - I was wondering if a buyout might be possible.
[15:16] <eroomde> it makes much more sense with wings
[15:16] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: Well - gravity losses can in some cases be 'small'.
[15:16] <SpeedEvil> And wings are not of course free.
[15:16] <SpeedEvil> It depends I guess if you hold that staging is evil.
[15:16] <eroomde> no but wings mean you don't need a crazy thrust to weight ratio in air breathing mode
[15:17] <SpeedEvil> I personally don't see a huge issue with it, if you do it where there is a low max-Q
[15:17] <SolarNRG> Air breathing method has problems of air heating, drag losses,
[15:17] <SpeedEvil> But the t:w ratio only matters if ...
[15:17] <Laurenceb> thats kind of the point of the reaction engines engine
[15:17] <eroomde> all rockets suffer from drag losses
[15:18] <SolarNRG> I mean if you had a giant SR-71 and a giant Pegasus XL I'm sure it would reduce launch costs in the long run!
[15:18] <SpeedEvil> Lots less as the size goes up.
[15:18] <eroomde> yes indeed
[15:18] <eroomde> but conventional rockets come with lots of their own problems
[15:18] <eroomde> tat's why they're so expensive
[15:19] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: IMO a lot of those problems are political, not technical.
[15:19] <SolarNRG> I think the answer lies with a more potent fuel and a better engine than the SSME
[15:19] <SpeedEvil> The SSME is a damn fine engine.
[15:19] <SpeedEvil> Arguably too good.
[15:19] <SolarNRG> Oooh yeah, even if it is 30 years old
[15:19] <eroomde> yes the SSMA is one of the highest performing engines ever built
[15:19] <SolarNRG> And started work 40 years ago
[15:19] <eroomde> so highly performing that they had to rebuild it alsot every flight at enormous expense
[15:19] <SolarNRG> You know the SSME was based on the Saturn V J2's future replacement for the cancelled Nova rocket for a Mars mission?
[15:20] <SolarNRG> This was back in the mid 70's
[15:20] <eroomde> it might have been based on something but that's immaterial to how it ended up
[15:20] <eroomde> like the shuttle program in general
[15:20] <SolarNRG> True
[15:20] <SolarNRG> What are your thoughts on the ESA's vulcain engine?
[15:20] <SpeedEvil> Optimising for mass is barking mad.
[15:20] <SolarNRG> Its like a big SSME for 1 use
[15:20] <eroomde> i don't really know anything about ESA's vulcain engine
[15:21] <SpeedEvil> The fuel (liquid) on the space shuttle launch costs 250K or so
[15:21] <eroomde> it sounds expensive
[15:21] <Zuph> SSME is impressively large and complex in person.
[15:21] <SpeedEvil> cost
[15:21] <Zuph> Not half as much as the F-1, though.
[15:21] <SolarNRG> The F-1 did the trick, but its quite inefficient compared to what we can make now
[15:21] <eroomde> we know how to make very high performance rocket engines
[15:22] <eroomde> the thermodynamics is quite well understood
[15:22] <UpuMobile> "The F-1 did the trick"
[15:22] <SolarNRG> The F-1 was made from Inconel
[15:22] <UpuMobile> I hear the pope is catholic too
[15:22] <SpeedEvil> I was re-watching SpaceX's dragon launch talk.
[15:22] <eroomde> it's making them reliable and cheap that presents the challenges
[15:22] <eroomde> and safe
[15:22] <SpeedEvil> And their plans to scale their plant to making more rocket engines than current global production.
[15:22] <SpeedEvil> err - falcon launch talk
[15:23] <eroomde> they've already made hydrazine and chloroflourofartypantsheptane engines that have great ISPs and will kill any technician who works on them and require rebuilding every 4 seconds
[15:23] <gonzo___> (I though, it was the pope that crapped in the woods?)
[15:23] <eroomde> that's not really the challenge anymore
[15:23] <SolarNRG> eroomde, isn't that what the Proton uses?
[15:24] Nick change: gonzo___ -> gonzo_
[15:24] <eroomde> they have used oxidisers than will react with sand, asbestos, that will carry on in a straight line even if the pipe they're in makes a turn
[15:24] <eroomde> BUT, none of them get you into space any cheaper
[15:24] <SpeedEvil> Liquid ozone is fun. :)
[15:24] <eroomde> and that's really the only interesting problem, I think, at the moment
[15:24] <SpeedEvil> Density is a wonderful thing.
[15:24] <SpeedEvil> LH2 gets great ISP - but it's only really better at enormous scales.
[15:25] <SpeedEvil> Even then it tends to boost structural mass.
[15:25] <gonzo_> density must be great, there is so much of it in the population
[15:25] <eroomde> there is a nice section on ozone in that book
[15:25] <eroomde> it's a fabulous book
[15:25] <eroomde> again, its tendancy to detonate made it unpopular with the expeirmentalists
[15:26] Action: SpeedEvil wishes Art of Electronics 3e would come out.
[15:26] <Randomskk> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorine_trifluoride etc
[15:26] <eroomde> what is it missing that you can't find elsewhere?
[15:26] <eroomde> i like its timelessness
[15:26] <eroomde> the digital stuff in it is a bit boring anyway
[15:26] <eroomde> it's all about the silly injokes
[15:26] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: It would be nice if there was a more up to date version to point newbies at.
[15:26] <SpeedEvil> I mean - 80c31 is great and all.
[15:27] <SolarNRG> Say you were going to make a DD fusion thruster (does not yet exist) How do you contain the reaction without million degree hot gases eating away at the walls of the engine? Also if its used on earth, won't the electrons of the atmosphere charge the deuterium and make it no longer affected by magnetic fields? Is there another way?
[15:27] <eroomde> supermagnetic fields
[15:27] <eroomde> you can generate them with your fish pump
[15:27] Action: SpeedEvil ponders.
[15:27] <SpeedEvil> I wonder what the thrust of ITER would be.
[15:28] <SpeedEvil> Anyway - in short
[15:28] <eroomde> SolarNRG: there was recently published a hefty study on project daedelus
[15:28] <SolarNRG> I think it won't work because its a tocamac, they don't work because the sun isn't a donut and these people think a donut fusion reaction will work
[15:28] <eroomde> which probably talks about some of the things you're asking
[15:28] <SpeedEvil> A gigawatt reactor gets you quite sucky thrust
[15:28] <SpeedEvil> If the exhaust is high enough ISP
[15:29] <SpeedEvil> ITER - the core - weighs around 5000 tons.
[15:29] <SolarNRG> I'm talking about fusion rocket, not a fusion power source, I don't care if the rocket is losing power, I care about whether or not continuous bombardment of deuterium nuclei can be done to get a rocket into LEO in a single stage
[15:29] <SpeedEvil> It outputs 500 megawatts
[15:30] <SpeedEvil> That power has to come from somewhere
[15:30] <eroomde> SolarNRG: you know how i told you to stop obsessiong over launch sites for skylon recently
[15:30] <eroomde> as you inexplicably and needlessly had a bee in your bonnet about them
[15:30] <eroomde> well, you have my permission to start obsession about launch sites again for your fusion-explosion powered ssto rocket
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[15:31] <eroomde> i should get on with some work
[15:31] <SolarNRG> Thank you for your time
[15:31] <SolarNRG> I guess I ask the impossible
[15:31] <eroomde> well it's fine
[15:31] <eroomde> but just coming onto irc and talking about stuff seems silly
[15:32] <eroomde> nothing is more depressing than flailing about as an armchair engineer
[15:32] <SpeedEvil> To get 5000 tons of thrust out of 500 megawatts - you've got to basically use a helicopter.
[15:33] <SpeedEvil> You need so low an exhaust velocity a rocket isn't possible
[15:33] <SolarNRG> Gas turbine, now THERE'S a powerplant
[15:33] <SolarNRG> I think a gas turbine is probably the right answer for building a workign bi-pedal combat mech suit
[15:34] <eroomde> jesus
[15:34] Action: eroomde leaves
[15:34] <Laurenceb> i knew that was coming
[15:34] <Laurenceb> freaking mech suits
[15:34] <SpeedEvil> Bipedal is stupid - it raises your profile, and takes you away from a sphere.
[15:34] <SolarNRG> The Royal Navy are offering 1.3 mil for a working design!
[15:35] <SpeedEvil> I think you mean an augment suit. _not_ a mech
[15:35] <SolarNRG> Like a giant Ed 209 thing
[15:35] <Laurenceb> lmao
[15:35] <Laurenceb> "argument" suit
[15:35] <SolarNRG> The Atlas in Mass effect 3
[15:36] <SolarNRG> I thought about making one out of my gears and some windscreen wiper motors, my arduino, some pressure sensors wire, resistors, capacitors and a load of laptop batteries
[15:37] <Laurenceb> oh dear
[15:37] <Laurenceb> arduinos...
[15:37] Action: Laurenceb leaves to go back to sanity
[15:37] <SolarNRG> Hey, 10 year ago when I was at Uni we worked with PIC and assembly
[15:37] <SolarNRG> The arduino is amazing
[15:37] <SpeedEvil> Augmentation is hard - you need really lightweight high performance stuff.
[15:37] <SpeedEvil> And harder than that are the bloody joints.
[15:38] <SolarNRG> Yeah, the gears need to be titanium really
[15:38] <SolarNRG> And the shell needs to be carbon fibre
[15:38] <SpeedEvil> Titanium is shit.
[15:38] <SpeedEvil> For gears.
[15:38] <SolarNRG> Steel's heavy
[15:38] <SolarNRG> Polyamide gears then, NASA said they are light and durable
[15:39] <SolarNRG> vickers hardness sorry
[15:39] <SpeedEvil> Ti does not have better hardness than dteel
[15:39] <SpeedEvil> you're possibly thinking of TiN
[15:40] <SolarNRG> Or TiBo2
[15:40] <SolarNRG> The MOD uses that for body armout
[15:40] <SolarNRG> Pain in the ass to make though, needs like 3000ºc
[15:41] <Laurenceb> ...
[15:41] <Laurenceb> that doesnt mean its good for gears
[15:42] <SolarNRG> Hmm, I was asking NASA initially about using Aluminum lithium for light strong gears and they said it was shit, I even rang up a company in birmingham for a block for 150 quid
[15:42] <SolarNRG> But I was advised the same as what you're telling me now
[15:42] <SolarNRG> Shit for gears
[15:42] <SolarNRG> I asked the 3d printer lot at Reprap about printing polyamide, said it was toxic as fuck
[15:42] <SpeedEvil> Steel works fine.
[15:42] <SolarNRG> In the end, I made 2 gears, an ICE gear and a WAX gear before my latex mold died on me
[15:42] <SpeedEvil> As does many plastics
[15:42] <SolarNRG> I got a steel gear also
[15:43] <SolarNRG> cost a lotta
[15:43] <SolarNRG> But I'm thinking for the gear ratios for a mech you really want lightweight gears, steel's heavy
[15:50] <SpeedEvil> http://corporate.honda.com/innovation/walk-assist/
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[16:55] <Lunar_LanderU> hello
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[17:02] <SolarNRG> hi lunar lander
[17:03] <Lunar_LanderU> hello
[17:14] <x-f> hi, lunar, how's your gesundheit?
[17:15] <Lunar_LanderU> a bit better, thanks and yours?
[17:16] <x-f> almost lost voice, but i don't mind
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[17:17] <Lunar_LanderU> ohhh
[17:25] <jonsowman> Laurenceb: rtty from a rtl dvb stick :) http://hexoc.com/u/rtl-rtty.png
[17:25] <SolarNRG> Is it worth getting a CNC mill to machine rocket nossles?
[17:28] <eroomde> no use a tooth pick
[17:28] <eroomde> a tooth pick and a steady hand
[17:28] <eroomde> that's how goddard did it
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[18:03] <SpeedEvil> Spun copper looks interesting as a way of forming chambers and nozzles
[18:06] <SolarNRG> Is it advisable to have a regeneratively cooled combustion chamber?
[18:07] <SpeedEvil> There are probably about a dozen sorts of cooling.
[18:07] <SpeedEvil> Regenerative is one
[18:08] <SpeedEvil> Film cooling, curtain cooling, ablative, regenerative, pulsed combustion, porous walls spring to mind.
[18:08] <SpeedEvil> I've probably missed some
[18:08] <SpeedEvil> Oh - radiative
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[18:19] <SolarNRG> Heatsinks on the outer walls of the combustion chamber?
[18:24] <SpeedEvil> ?
[18:24] <SpeedEvil> no
[18:24] <SpeedEvil> Letting the chamber glow like a light-bulb to cool it
[18:25] <SolarNRG> Can't the thermal radiation be dangerous to other components ?
[18:25] <SpeedEvil> Who told you that rockets were safe and easy?
[18:26] <SolarNRG> The best rule of rocketry is "always assume it WILL explode on the launchpad"
[18:26] <fsphil> I think rule 0 applies here
[18:26] <SpeedEvil> At the most inconvenient time.
[18:26] <SpeedEvil> Though the bunny is also appropriate.
[18:27] <SpeedEvil> Eddie Valiant: You mean you could've taken your hand out of that cuff at any time?
[18:27] <SpeedEvil> Roger Rabbit: No, not at any time, only when it was funny.
[18:27] <fsphil> great movie
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[20:03] <Elwell> went to see it and was *so* pissed off with teh cartoon start (had seen all the making of trailers etc and was expecting the human interaction.
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[20:04] <Elwell> was when the camera drew back from the set I was like 'oh wow'
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[20:09] <Lunar_Lander_> hello
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[20:14] <eroomde> tomorrow never dies is just starting
[20:14] <eroomde> among the most underrated bond films
[20:15] <eroomde> so say i and my bottle of san miguel
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[20:15] <eroomde> yo Dan-K2VOL
[20:15] <Randomskk> tomorrow never dies is excellent
[20:16] <Lunar_Lander_> hello Dan-K2VOL
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[20:37] <Dan-K2VOL> hey lunar_lander
[20:37] <Dan-K2VOL> hi eroomde
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[21:04] <Laurenceb_> http://imgur.com/gallery/9Msoo
[21:06] <Lunar_Lander_> Dan-K2VOL, how are you today?
[21:12] <Dan-K2VOL> doing fine Kevin, u?
[21:12] <Dan-K2VOL> just putting away all the white star stuff at the hackerspace
[21:13] <Lunar_Lander_> quite OK
[21:13] <Lunar_Lander_> what exactly did happen?
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[21:40] <jcoxon> evening all
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[00:00] --- Tue May 15 2012