highaltitude.log.20120427

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[06:43] <earthshine> Morning
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[07:03] <x-f> morning
[07:17] <SamSilver_> x-f: g'day
[07:18] <x-f> hi, Sam
[07:19] <fsphil> salut!
[07:22] <fsphil> lovely morning here. but rudely interrupted by work
[07:26] <SamSilver_> holiday here "Freedom Day"
[07:26] <SamSilver_> same as Barbeque Day
[07:26] <SamSilver_> South Africa
[07:28] <fsphil> a popular day in prisons no doubt
[07:32] <daveake> Apparently yesterday was "Hug an Australian Day". Fortunately I didn't have any Aussies handy.
[07:32] <UpuWork> Today we have "Friday"
[07:32] <UpuWork> its wet
[07:32] <UpuWork> miserable
[07:32] <UpuWork> but its Friday
[07:32] <UpuWork> which is always a bonus
[07:32] <daveake> A day most noted by it's relative position
[07:33] <UpuWork> however just for a giggle I just called Audi to ask how much 4 tyres were on my car
[07:33] <UpuWork> and they quoted £250 a corner
[07:33] <jonsowman> hahaha
[07:33] <UpuWork> which is about £100 a corner more than everyone else
[07:33] <jonsowman> wow
[07:33] <daveake> Comedians
[07:34] <daveake> A full set for mine and a full tank of petrol would pretty much double the car's value
[07:35] <jonsowman> mm same
[07:35] <UpuWork> lol
[07:36] <UpuWork> jonsowman can you fix the topic when you get a moment
[07:36] <UpuWork> peaksky isn't this weekend
[07:36] <jonsowman> oh yes
[07:36] <UpuWork> thanks
[07:36] #highaltitude: mode change '+o jonsowman' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
[07:36] <jonsowman> when's the next one...
[07:37] <fsphil> no launches this weekend. I'm scared!
[07:37] <jonsowman> ukhas calendar says BONZO1 next saturday?
[07:37] <daveake> :)
[07:37] <UpuWork> g0nzo's not sure
[07:37] <daveake> number10 and I may be launching that Saturday too
[07:37] <jonsowman> ok i'll leave it for now, will update when sorted
[07:37] Topic changed on #highaltitude by jonsowman!jonsowman@kryten.hexoc.com: Welcome to #highaltitude - discuss anything to do with high altitude projects (balloons, gliders, etc) www.ukhas.org.uk
[07:38] #highaltitude: mode change '-o jonsowman' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
[07:38] <number10> If we are I will need the payload doc adding again - as upload no longer working
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[07:38] <jonsowman> number10: no problem, let me know
[07:39] <number10> do you need another copy jonsowman or is it just an enable/disable thing?
[07:39] <jonsowman> i can just make a copy and update times :)
[07:39] <number10> ta :) i'll let you know
[07:39] <jonsowman> yep
[07:39] <jonsowman> biab
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[08:11] <nosebleedkt_> Good morning
[08:12] <fsphil> morn!
[08:14] <nosebleedkt_> fsphil:
[08:14] <nosebleedkt_> have you ever used glue for polysterine?
[08:14] <nosebleedkt_> to make your own payload
[08:15] <fsphil> nope, just duct tape
[08:15] <fsphil> I don't trust glue enough at cold temperatures
[08:15] <fsphil> but that's not based on any kind of scientific reasoning -- I just don't know how well it works/not works
[08:16] <Matt_soton> http://imgur.com/kX2UP <no glue or duct tape needed
[08:17] <nosebleedkt_> so you get ready containers?
[08:17] <nosebleedkt_> mhh
[08:20] <fsphil> looks fragile Matt_soton :)
[08:20] <Matt_soton> its actually very sturdy
[08:21] <Matt_soton> thers dowel on a few sides to keep it together too
[08:22] <Matt_soton> and tbh i did seal the inside with hot glue, but its a reasonable fit on the inside wihtot it
[08:22] <Darkside> Matt_soton: we use hot glue and alraldite
[08:22] <fsphil> it looks great
[08:22] <Darkside> and thin double sided tape
[08:23] <Matt_soton> it took a while to make mind you
[08:23] <Darkside> also how bad is london going to get during the olympics?
[08:23] <Darkside> because i'm coming over mid july it seems
[08:23] <fsphil> ever seen night of the living dead?
[08:24] <Matt_soton> probably not too bad unless you wanted to drive or use public transport at an unfortinate time
[08:24] <Darkside> heh
[08:24] <Darkside> well ideallyi won't need to go anywhere else apart from paddington station
[08:24] <LazyLeopard> Good question. Nobody knows, but smart money says itl' pay to be an Olympic big-wig...
[08:24] <Darkside> as i'd be training in from heathrow to there, then out to bath
[08:25] <nosebleedkt_> conspirancy theories want big ben to be destroyed
[08:25] <nosebleedkt_> during olympics
[08:25] <nosebleedkt_> lol
[08:25] <LazyLeopard> Get a bus from Heathrow out?
[08:25] <Matt_soton> paddington is at least the opposite side to the olympics
[08:25] <Matt_soton> just dont land when everyone else wants to
[08:26] <LazyLeopard> There are coaches from Heathrow that head directly west...
[08:26] <Darkside> nah i'l catch the train
[08:26] <Darkside> i prefer to train it anyway
[08:27] <Darkside> and now that i know about thetrainline, i won't be paying a ridiculous amount for trainfares
[08:27] <fsphil> always a plus
[08:28] <fsphil> just remember to take your ticket
[08:28] Action: fsphil forgot once :/
[08:28] <Darkside> oh yeah that was the problem i had last time
[08:28] <Darkside> the machines wouldn't read my cashpassport visa card
[08:28] <Darkside> i always had to go to a person
[08:28] <Darkside> that isn't a big problem in paddington though
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[08:29] <fsphil> the machine read my card, but only printed one ticket
[08:29] <fsphil> and the other one which is just a receipt
[08:29] <jcoxon> morning
[08:29] <Darkside> yeah i remember that
[08:29] <Darkside> i just kept both
[08:29] <fsphil> I thought the one ticket was all I needed, and on the way back I met "the ticket inspector"
[08:29] <Darkside> i still have BOTH my tickers from when i left the UK
[08:29] <fsphil> he was not happy
[08:30] <Darkside> heh
[08:30] <Darkside> on the day of the horus 15.5 launch, i was at the train station too early for people to be there
[08:30] <Darkside> and i couldn't get my ticket
[08:30] <Darkside> so i just boarded anyway
[08:31] <Darkside> i got all the way to didcot, no ticket inspectors!
[08:31] <Darkside> on the way back though, i got inspected, but i just showed the guy my trainline receipt and he was fine with that
[08:32] <Darkside> but yeah, i was freaking out at the bath train station when i couldn't get my ticket
[08:32] <Darkside> i think someone on here told me to just board the train
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[08:44] <fsphil> next time I'll get the tickets posted to me
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[08:49] <marcozambi> Hi there!
[08:50] <marcozambi> I and my friends of the StratoSpera team are getting ready for our next launch
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[08:50] <marcozambi> Some time ago I noticed there was a website in wich announce new launches
[08:50] <fsphil> hiya marcozambi, when is the launch?
[08:51] <marcozambi> may 26th
[08:51] <marcozambi> I'd like to ask if someone could point me to that website
[08:52] <jcoxon> marcozambi, http://www.arhab.org/hab_launch_list.php
[08:53] <marcozambi> oh, thanks jcoxon
[08:53] <jcoxon> marcozambi, where you launching from?
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[08:54] <marcozambi> Italy, central Tuscany, 20 km south from Florence
[08:54] <jcoxon> excellent
[08:54] <jcoxon> APRS tracking?
[08:54] <marcozambi> yessir, but officially none :)
[08:54] <jcoxon> oh i see...
[08:55] <marcozambi> Italian law forbids transmissions from the air by unguarded radio stations
[08:56] <jcoxon> marcozambi, is that just amateur radio stations (ham)?
[08:56] <marcozambi> Working on a double transmission platform: APRS for positioning and SSDV snapshots from a ttl camera pointing at our balloons
[08:56] <jcoxon> could you use ISM licence exempt modules
[08:56] <fsphil> interesting
[08:56] <fsphil> I thought the UK was the only country with that restriction
[08:57] <marcozambi> no fsphil, Italian law forbids that since 2nd WW, I think for military reasons
[08:57] <marcozambi> obviously this is an old and forgot law
[08:57] <fsphil> shame
[08:57] <fsphil> how are you transmitting the ssdv images?
[08:58] <marcozambi> as strange as it might sounds, the law forbids but doesn't state any kind of fine or punishment
[08:59] <marcozambi> for ssdv I'm currently working to port the code I found for HADIE under Arduino platform
[08:59] <fsphil> it's not a law here as such, just a license restriction. if we transmitted from a balloon they may remove our license
[08:59] <marcozambi> Our law doesn't even say that. Just forbids and that's it
[09:00] <marcozambi> Anyway almost all the people involved in the mission are licensed ham radio operators
[09:00] <marcozambi> so we try to break the low... with fair play. Low power transmissions
[09:00] <marcozambi> for few seconds
[09:00] <marcozambi> I know it's always breaking the law
[09:00] <marcozambi> but I'm sure no one will noticed.
[09:01] <marcozambi> *notice
[09:01] <marcozambi> :)
[09:01] <fsphil> does the project have a website?
[09:01] <marcozambi> As soon as our coding and electronic work will be done, we'll publish everything on our blog
[09:01] <marcozambi> open sourced
[09:02] <marcozambi> yes, you can find info on our blog http://www.stratospera.com
[09:02] <marcozambi> It's in Italian but Google can take care of that
[09:02] <marcozambi> We use a special mainboard called BSM
[09:03] <marcozambi> based on Atmel chip
[09:03] <marcozambi> and custom made by our sponsor Develer srl
[09:03] <marcozambi> Design and OS/firmware code are open source
[09:04] <fsphil> some very nice images from your last flight
[09:04] <marcozambi> so anyone can freely reuse the board's design and sw
[09:04] <marcozambi> thanks
[09:05] <marcozambi> this time we'll launch clustering 3 ballooons
[09:06] <marcozambi> in order to trying to maximise the stability of the payload
[09:06] <marcozambi> of course until one of the 3 balloons blows up :)
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[09:08] <jcoxon> haha indeed
[09:09] <Darkside> hehe, had some guy ask about the microAPRS stuff
[09:10] <Darkside> Jon elosegui
[09:12] <marcozambi> this will be our first time working with a cluster of balloons
[09:12] <marcozambi> and we are still wondering how they will interact
[09:13] <jcoxon> marcozambi, i've launched 2balloons before
[09:13] <marcozambi> in order to investigate their behaviour, we'll fly a light minicam pointed up, to the balloons, for the whole duration of the flight
[09:13] <jcoxon> they rubbed each other as they were too close
[09:13] <jcoxon> and burst early
[09:13] <jcoxon> right bbl
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[09:14] <marcozambi> what do you mean by early?
[09:14] <marcozambi> we expect to reach at least 30000 m
[09:14] <marcozambi> but it's not the main goal of the mission
[09:15] <marcozambi> we are still brainstorming for a good, passive way to have them well separated, but we are aware that the higher we'll go, the larger they'll become
[09:15] <Darkside> marcozambi: what he meant was they burst lower than one individual balloon would have ubrst
[09:16] <Darkside> and yeah, you can do separation, but it adds weight
[09:16] <marcozambi> Yes Darkside, my question was not clear. Let me rephrase it
[09:16] <marcozambi> What altitude did you expect to reach, and what was the real burst altitude?
[09:17] <Darkside> i don't know, i'm not involved with that group
[09:17] <marcozambi> Ok, so maybe jcoxon could answer :)
[09:18] <Darkside> he's just left :P
[09:18] <marcozambi> argh :D
[09:18] <marcozambi> you're right
[09:18] <marcozambi> anyway, our goal is mostly to evaluate the behaviour of a 3 balloons cluster system
[09:19] <marcozambi> so we'll see how much up they'll go
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[09:26] <costyn> Elmar_PD3EM: you rang?
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[10:10] <kokey> how much cheaper is h2 than he?
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[10:10] <russss> kokey: lots
[10:10] <cuddykid> a lot
[10:11] <russss> a factor of 10 I think
[10:11] <kokey> I assume the biggest issue with multiple balloons for extra lift is the cost of gas
[10:14] <kokey> I don't see many electrolyzer and compressor systems about
[10:14] <kokey> like home units
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[11:32] <Laurenceb> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-17864782
[11:32] <Laurenceb> awesome
[11:45] <oh7lzb> Sorry, but no. A large amount of users would then come asking where all
[11:45] <oh7lzb> the AIS ships disappeared suddenly. I also prefer to show everything by
[11:45] <oh7lzb> default so that people can learn what data is available - they can then
[11:45] <oh7lzb> oops, sorry for the paste.
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[12:13] <Darkside> ooh so they got it back
[12:14] <jonsowman> sans gopro, unfortunately
[12:15] <jonsowman> looks as it someone nicked the expensive bits before it was then found by the person who returned it
[12:15] <jonsowman> *if
[12:15] <Darkside> damn
[12:15] <jonsowman> yes, annoying
[12:16] <jonsowman> oh well, better than not getting anything back at all
[12:16] <Darkside> yup
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[12:29] <eroomde> bbc news article about work: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-17864782
[12:30] <jonsowman> eroomde: i assume you're not going to be at the martlet thing at cued this eve?
[12:30] <eroomde> LOL
[12:30] <eroomde> which is to say no, there is still quite a lot to do for me in ox
[12:30] <eroomde> on martlet and gyroc
[12:30] <jonsowman> fair enough
[12:30] <eroomde> coming up first thing tomorrow
[12:30] <eroomde> probably straight for work at this rate
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[13:12] <griffonbot> Received email: Solar Balloonman "[UKHAS] Re: PicoChu-5 Launch Announcement"
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[13:44] <costyn> eroomde: looks very cool!
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[14:49] Nick change: shenki_ -> shenki
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[15:08] <fsphil-laptop> PBH not having much luck finding one of their payloads
[15:10] <nigelvh> Happens sometimes.
[15:11] <fsphil-laptop> don't I know it
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[15:24] Action: fsphil-laptop checks his farnell order status ....
[15:24] <fsphil-laptop> nope
[15:24] <UpuWork> are they up ?
[15:24] <UpuWork> down ?
[15:24] <UpuWork> who cares
[15:24] <UpuWork> I just did one of those
[15:24] <UpuWork> Those JST connectors are on back order again
[15:24] <UpuWork> going to order 100 next tiem
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[16:04] Nick change: [1]Boggle -> Boggle
[16:31] <priyesh> hello
[16:32] <griffonbot> @apexhab: Apex III L1 has arrived! Currently looking at data from Core board (which still boots and works!). #ukhas #apexhab [http://twitter.com/apexhab/status/195913212603015169]
[16:32] <griffonbot> @apexhab: We have ~3.5 hours of data after it landed, and ~90 minutes of GPS data. #ukhas #apexhab [http://twitter.com/apexhab/status/195913371810406402]
[16:32] <griffonbot> @danielsaul: RT @apexhab: Apex III L1 has arrived! Currently looking at data from Core board (which still boots and works!). #ukhas #apexhab [http://twitter.com/danielsaul/status/195913379452432385]
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[17:18] <griffonbot> @apexhab: Some images recovered: http://t.co/Bg4lwv95 #apexhab #ukhas [http://twitter.com/apexhab/status/195924970528972800]
[17:21] <Upu> wow nice picture
[17:21] <nigelvh> That is a great photo
[17:21] <priyesh> http://saul.im/dkb2
[17:21] <nigelvh> Damn.
[17:22] <danielsaul> Unfortunately, there are only a few good ones
[17:22] <danielsaul> Because of the late launch, most are just black :(
[17:22] <eroomde> i have just finished all the pcbs needed for next week's field trip. it's been a slightly bonkers week getting them designed, layed out, fabbed and soldered up all in 7 days.
[17:22] <eroomde> http://i.imgur.com/Xl9fc.jpg
[17:22] <danielsaul> and it seems to start spinnign above the clouds a lot
[17:22] <eroomde> it's been f*cking missions
[17:22] <danielsaul> eroomde: Martlett?
[17:23] <danielsaul> -t
[17:23] <Upu> looks good eroomde
[17:23] <nigelvh> Shiny eroomde
[17:23] <Upu> what an odd picture py
[17:23] <Upu> priyesh
[17:24] <eroomde> danielsaul: yes
[17:24] <Upu> get them all up :)
[17:24] <priyesh> lots of stuff uploading :P
[17:24] <Upu> solder joints intentional on that bottom board on the large IC ?
[17:24] <danielsaul> Nearly all of them are blurred from spinning :(
[17:24] <eroomde> hope so
[17:25] <eroomde> er... yes that's the adc
[17:25] <Upu> 2 jumped pins ok
[17:25] <Upu> just checking :)
[17:25] <Upu> ok afk
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[17:25] <eroomde> also have built a launch tower for the rocket
[17:26] <eroomde> again in a mad last minute panic since monday
[17:26] <eroomde> scaf and truss
[17:26] <danielsaul> http://saul.im/dkbY << Looks like the sea...
[17:26] <danielsaul> Weird
[17:27] <nigelvh> A little blurred, but rather flat for clouds.
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[17:27] <danielsaul> http://saul.im/dkc6 << Another nice one
[17:28] <nigelvh> How often was it snapping photos?
[17:30] <danielsaul> Umm
[17:30] <cuddykid> nice danielsaul :D
[17:32] <danielsaul> About every 10 seconds
[17:32] <eroomde> http://www.flickr.com/photos/eroomde/6972988780/in/photostream
[17:32] <eroomde> launch tower
[17:32] <eroomde> minus guy cables
[17:32] <danielsaul> eroomde: Is the crane behind part of it? ;)
[17:32] <danielsaul> Looks good :)
[17:33] <eroomde> that's be nice
[17:33] <eroomde> would've saved money on truss
[17:33] <NigeyS> hah go use the crane! :D
[17:33] <nigelvh> Looks nice eroomde
[17:33] <eroomde> difficult to take up to Ben Armine too
[17:33] <fsphil-laptop> you streaming all this live ? :)
[17:33] <priyesh> Max sent us a postcard \o/
[17:34] <eroomde> apparently there is not just no singal up there, but completely completely no signal
[17:34] <eroomde> it's sat phones only
[17:34] <eroomde> so sorry, no live streaM :)
[17:34] <fsphil-laptop> ah well, worth asking :)
[17:34] <eroomde> have you seen a piccy of the rocket?|
[17:34] <nigelvh> I have not.
[17:34] <eroomde> http://www.cusf.co.uk/2012/04/martlet-1-2-stage-test-assembly/2-stage_foyer_cropped-2/
[17:34] <eroomde> that was it a week ago
[17:35] <eroomde> not finished in terms of being polished and stuff
[17:35] <eroomde> but structurally there
[17:35] <danielsaul> eroomde: Is it going to be just 2 stages then?
[17:35] <eroomde> *just* 2 have been quite a challenge so far
[17:35] <eroomde> soi yes :)
[17:35] <nigelvh> The largest we've done is a one stage 13' long 6" diameter rocket.
[17:35] <danielsaul> :(
[17:35] <eroomde> a challenge in the time available anyway
[17:36] <nigelvh> Staging is always tricky.
[17:36] <eroomde> we only knew about this opportunity to launch in jan
[17:36] <danielsaul> eroomde: Well, looks like it will be a fun/wet week :)
[17:36] <eroomde> and only raised about enough money from sponsors to start building quite some time after that
[17:36] <nigelvh> Fiberglas nosecone?
[17:37] <eroomde> it's had to have custom chutes, custom flight electronics, it's all carbon fibre and ali, it's all been a bit of a kerfuffle really
[17:37] <eroomde> i'm looking forward to a break
[17:37] <danielsaul> Oooh - just increased the brightness , lowered contrast of a couple of these totally black photos and I see stars!
[17:38] <nigelvh> Unless it's been painted, the nosecone doesn't look like Carbon Fiber to me.
[17:38] <fsphil-laptop> that's a big beastie
[17:39] <nigelvh> Just make sure it's not a plastic nosecone if you plan to exceed mach.
[17:39] <danielsaul> http://saul.im/dkde - possibly just some noise that Ive brightened... hmm
[17:40] <danielsaul> might be stars
[17:40] <fsphil-laptop> look like hot spots
[17:40] <eroomde> nigelvh: ah that's correct
[17:40] <eroomde> nose is fibreglass
[17:40] <eroomde> rf transparrent
[17:41] <eroomde> it's going well past mach :)
[17:41] <eroomde> and the top 5cm of nosecone is ali
[17:41] <nigelvh> Good deal. I figured you'd have something RF transparent on there. Point being is we've had plastic noscones crush then rip off, then the rocket be destroyed when exceeding mach.
[17:41] <nigelvh> Fiberglass fixed it.
[17:41] <eroomde> which will sink the heat from the shock away quite nicely
[17:42] <nigelvh> Yeah
[17:42] <nigelvh> We've been using the metal tipped ones lately as well.
[17:43] <nigelvh> As usual, make sure the fins are strong. They have a tendency to like to rip off.
[17:43] <eroomde> you can probably see
[17:43] <eroomde> they are aluminium (8mm thick) machine ribs
[17:43] <eroomde> with honeycomb carbon fibre filler
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[17:44] <nigelvh> Yeah. We've never had one break, what we've had is they pull out from the body.
[17:44] <eroomde> then in each 120 degree section between the fins there is a layer of carbon fibre being put on
[17:44] <nigelvh> There you go.
[17:44] <eroomde> to stop them pulling out
[17:44] <nigelvh> That should work
[17:45] <eroomde> the fillets of carbin fibre filled epoxy are also like 20mm
[17:45] <eroomde> one of them has an hd video camera embedded in
[17:45] <eroomde> looking downwards
[17:45] <eroomde> to catch stage separation
[17:45] <nigelvh> Good plan. It's always a tradeoff for reduced cross section and strength, but I lean towards strength.
[17:46] <eroomde> http://www.cusf.co.uk/2012/04/martlet-1-vacuum-bag-test/2012-04-18-01-19-01/
[17:46] <eroomde> that's what i was describing
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[17:46] <eroomde> and the fin camera http://www.cusf.co.uk/2012/04/martlet-1-hd-fin-camera/
[17:46] <nigelvh> Yeah, that's looking real nice.
[17:47] <eroomde> fingers crossed
[17:47] <eroomde> it's been such a rushed project
[17:47] <eroomde> but it's just for shiggles
[17:47] <eroomde> so we won't cry too much if it piles into the ground
[17:47] <eroomde> and we're near all the scottish distilleries
[17:47] <nigelvh> We've had a fair number of those....
[17:47] <eroomde> so we'll find a way to console ourselves
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[17:48] <eroomde> here is the range
[17:48] <eroomde> http://www.scottishrockets.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Armine-range2.jpg
[17:48] <eroomde> his in properly remote scotland
[17:48] <nigelvh> Generally I'm not too involved with the construction of the rocket bodies. I just make the telemetry, so I just want the students not to destroy my boards.
[17:49] <number10> short clip of REL test of Sabre on BBC news just now
[17:51] <griffonbot> Received email: Priyesh Patel "Re: [UKHAS] Apex III"
[17:53] <eroomde> number10: yeah cool huh?
[17:53] <eroomde> did you notice how awesomely the viper engine turned on?
[17:54] <number10> now I know why you dint want to go to france on holiday eroomde
[17:54] <eroomde> how much more smoothly it spun up and ignited than the original rolls royve sequencing system?
[17:54] <eroomde> i did that shit
[17:55] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: :)
[17:55] <number10> well thats cool eroomde - hope you get funding to see it through
[17:55] <eroomde> the original spark ignition wasn't all that reliable so we slightly upped the ante a bit by replacing the sparker with an oxygen hydrogen burner
[17:55] <eroomde> which almost burns a hole in the other side of the chamber
[17:56] <eroomde> but it lights it :)
[17:56] <SpeedEvil> Overignition is always better than the alternative
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[17:58] <number10> :) sounds like a lot of fun.. dont burn yourself out though with all the hours on that and Martlet
[17:58] <eroomde> and gyroc
[17:58] <eroomde> gyroc is also going to scotland
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[17:58] <eroomde> it's a biprop with active guidance
[17:58] <eroomde> a la armadillo aerospace et al
[17:59] <eroomde> that's what half those pcbs were for
[17:59] <SolarNRG> Has anyone ever cast their own de-lavel nossle before?
[17:59] <eroomde> but yes i'll be taking a holiday after next week
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[18:00] <eroomde> SolarNRG: not cast
[18:00] <eroomde> machined tho
[18:01] <eroomde> i know people who have though, for bigger ones
[18:01] <eroomde> what sort of size?
[18:01] <eroomde> i think a lot of the effort and technique of casting is a function of size
[18:02] <SolarNRG> What material did you use?
[18:02] <SolarNRG> I'm thinking of doing a 3d printed de lavel nossle, copying it with amorphous silicone into a wax cast
[18:02] <eroomde> have you had a look at the moonlight rockeeteer?
[18:02] <SolarNRG> Then embedding the wax cast into molochite and pouring in molten titanium in
[18:03] <eroomde> he does 3d printed complete engines
[18:03] <eroomde> chamber and nozzle
[18:03] <eroomde> regen cooling
[18:03] <eroomde> very interesting stuff
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[18:03] <SolarNRG> Any of you guys got any idea about "tripropellant rocketry" I.e using lithium, hydrogen and fluorine to get rediculous ISP?
[18:04] <nigelvh> BTW, I mentioned a while ago about going to the black rock desert for some rockets, but I haven't shared any pictures yet, so here's some: http://digitalnigel.com/wordpress/?p=1121
[18:04] <eroomde> daveake: the final tally since friday that i was talking about http://i.imgur.com/Xl9fc.jpg
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[18:04] <eroomde> SolarNRG: triporpellant gets talked about here
[18:04] <eroomde> but the chemicals are a bit anticoscial
[18:04] <eroomde> social*
[18:05] <eroomde> nigelvh: would love to get out there
[18:05] <daveake> eroomde Impressive :-)
[18:05] <nigelvh> It's a great place for doing this sort of thing.
[18:05] <SolarNRG> I think the big question is "How do you contain fluorine without it eating away at your tank walls" and "How do you fire it off without poisoning the crowd"
[18:05] <eroomde> it's serious trecking to retreive stages in scotland
[18:05] <nigelvh> Yeah, this is a big flat place. Just drive to it.
[18:06] <eroomde> don't have a crowd
[18:06] <eroomde> but yes flourine oxidisers are just horrendous
[18:06] <SolarNRG> And the former part of my question
[18:06] <eroomde> you keep hearing stories about how basically anything they touch catches fire
[18:06] <eroomde> SolarNRG: apparently you have opinions on skyl;on?
[18:07] <SolarNRG> Yeah
[18:07] <SolarNRG> My opinion is based on the Alan Bond lecture
[18:07] <eroomde> which one?
[18:07] <SolarNRG> I argue 30 micron technology is going to be sooo thin it won't withstand the heat and pressure of reentry
[18:07] <SolarNRG> Chemistry reckons the precooler may use eythylene as its de-icer
[18:08] <eroomde> they have done quite a few plasma tunnel tests already
[18:08] <SolarNRG> Britain's fastest ever built aircraft was the electric lightening 2, we haven't even gone to mach 3 yet let alone mach 25
[18:09] <eroomde> well skylon isn't an aircraft at mach 25 either
[18:09] <eroomde> its just in orbit
[18:09] <SolarNRG> sure
[18:09] <eroomde> and we've already made orbital rockets
[18:09] <eroomde> about 50 years ago
[18:09] <SolarNRG> blue streak 2
[18:09] <SolarNRG> Sure
[18:10] <SolarNRG> The space shuttle used replaceable heatshielded tiles and had to be painsteakingly replaced after each flight. These got around the problem of re-entry by being applatable and not reusable
[18:10] <eroomde> sure but the ballistic coefficient of skylon is very much lower
[18:11] <SolarNRG> The surface area is also much greater and would require a wider area of special heatshielding
[18:11] <eroomde> the energy dissipation on the skin in consequenctly much lower
[18:11] <eroomde> about 1MW/m^2
[18:11] <SolarNRG> You're still talking about 1000 degrees
[18:11] <eroomde> and we can keep rocket engines cool and unmelted and they're more like 10-100MW/m^2
[18:12] <SolarNRG> I have my doubts about the rate of liquid oxygen they will be able to produce litres/second
[18:12] <SolarNRG> Although I have no information to base this on as a pre-cooled jet engine that can turn hot air to liquid oxygen is currently hypothetical
[18:12] <SpeedEvil> Hell - a kettle does 200kW/m^2
[18:13] <SpeedEvil> (exposed element type)
[18:14] <SolarNRG> Safe Speedevil, how goes things
[18:14] <SolarNRG> :)
[18:14] <SpeedEvil> Shitty.
[18:14] <SpeedEvil> Haven't really managed to wake up at all today.
[18:14] <SpeedEvil> Though on the plus side - I did manage to blag 15Kg of chocolate for a tenner yesterday.
[18:14] <SpeedEvil> So a result of sorts.
[18:15] <eroomde> SolarNRG: you don't have to produce lox
[18:15] <eroomde> i don';t understand
[18:15] <eroomde> you can do that on the ground and fill up the tanks
[18:16] <eroomde> sabre doesn't liquify the air in air breathing mode
[18:16] <eroomde> it's single phase (gas) all the way through
[18:16] <SolarNRG> My understanding is that Skylon has very little LOX on board and uses air in the upper atmosphere to become lox to drive the aircraft up to mach 3
[18:16] <eroomde> nope
[18:16] <SolarNRG> This is so that you can have more fuel on board
[18:16] <SolarNRG> :o
[18:17] <SolarNRG> Then either you're wrong or I am. Explain to me how the Sabre engien works then.
[18:17] <eroomde> i'm right ;)
[18:17] <eroomde> it has lox in tanks
[18:17] <eroomde> which it uses when out of the atmosphere
[18:17] <eroomde> in conventional rocket mode
[18:17] <SpeedEvil> I suspect eroomde may know more about the subject :)
[18:17] <eroomde> but in air breathing mode, it keeps it as a gas all the way through
[18:17] Action: Upu inserts off topic comment :
[18:17] <Upu> priyesh love the way they'd packed it with sea shells
[18:18] <eroomde> it cools the gas from about 1000C to about -104C
[18:18] <Upu> what a hero
[18:18] <eroomde> 140C
[18:18] <SolarNRG> I thought Skylon used jet to get to mach 2, used precooler to turn air to lox to get to mach 5, then onboard lox h2 to get to orbit
[18:18] <SolarNRG> -159 degrees is oxygen's boiling point
[18:18] <eroomde> it's at about 1atm at this point
[18:18] <SolarNRG> -183 even
[18:19] <eroomde> sure - it stays above that
[18:19] <eroomde> so you have air at about 1atm and -140C within the precooler
[18:19] <SolarNRG> So are they using compressed air or liquid oxygen?
[18:19] <eroomde> it then has a turbomachinery style compressor
[18:19] <eroomde> which compresses the air to about 100atm
[18:19] <eroomde> and that's what goes into the chamber
[18:19] <eroomde> in air breathing mode, compressed air
[18:20] <SolarNRG> Won't the intert nitrogen in the mix reduce the efficiency of the engine?
[18:20] <eroomde> sure
[18:20] <eroomde> if you can someohow just get oxygen in there, you'd have more moles and more boom
[18:20] <eroomde> but you can't but it's still good enough
[18:20] <NigeyS> poor moles :(
[18:21] <SolarNRG> I thought that was the purpose of the pre-cooler, but you'd need to get down to -189 wihtout icing,
[18:22] <eroomde> no
[18:22] <SolarNRG> Then the nitrogen is still gas
[18:22] <SolarNRG> the oxygen is liquid
[18:22] <SpeedEvil> You can't do that
[18:22] <eroomde> you jsut need to get down from the 1000C that it heats up to when it comes through the intake
[18:22] <SpeedEvil> The boiling points are too close
[18:22] <SolarNRG> I thought the curved down at the back was so the liquid could flow down into a funnel
[18:22] <eroomde> because that's basicallymimpossible to compress, it's so energetic
[18:22] <eroomde> it's curved down at the back so the thrust is through the CoG
[18:23] <SolarNRG> So it isn't a true LOX LH2 rocket between mach2 to mach 5, its a compressed air LH2 rocket, right?
[18:24] <eroomde> infact the hydrogen is a gas too when it enters the chamber
[18:24] <eroomde> it's just stored as a liquid
[18:24] <eroomde> http://www.reactionengines.co.uk/images/sabre/sabre_cycle.jpg
[18:24] <eroomde> it's hydrogen/air from 0-Mach5
[18:24] Action: SpeedEvil wonders about applicability to jets.
[18:24] <eroomde> and hydrogen/ox into space
[18:24] <russss> same in the SSME though right?
[18:24] <SpeedEvil> - as in conventional jets
[18:25] <eroomde> SpeedEvil: for sure the precooler has applications
[18:25] <SpeedEvil> Oh - I guess on reflection the NOX will suck
[18:25] <eroomde> it lets you get the air manageable so you can compress and burn it at higher speeds than you can currently
[18:25] <SpeedEvil> - for Sabre
[18:25] <eroomde> current jets are limited to sort of mach 2.7ish for this reason
[18:26] <SolarNRG> The 30 micron heat exchanger walls would be efficient, at cooling that hot air down, especially if the surface area to volume ratio is high, however once mach 3 1000 degree air hits the precooler's walls which are less than half the thickness of a beer can's walls, how are the walls not going to burst open and require re-repair after each flight?
[18:26] <SpeedEvil> And then you have the annoying fact that you don't want too great a mismatch between the speed of the plane and the exhaust, or you run into Ke/momentum problems
[18:26] <SpeedEvil> Because you support them
[18:27] <eroomde> SolarNRG: they have internal pressure too
[18:27] <SpeedEvil> Note that a beercan can support the weight of a normal person if you stand on it
[18:27] <SpeedEvil> because it's internally pressurised
[18:27] <SolarNRG> I'd hope those walls are not made of aluminium (very soft)
[18:27] <SpeedEvil> Aluminium is not very soft
[18:27] <SpeedEvil> There are various alloys.
[18:28] <nigelvh> SpeedEvil, a person can stand on a beer can when it's empty. It's not the pressure that holds it up.
[18:28] <SpeedEvil> It's a useful structural metal, not that much worse than titanium
[18:28] <SolarNRG> Aluminium has one of the lowest ratings of vickers hardness!
[18:28] <SpeedEvil> nigelvh: yeah - I know, I was skipping that
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[18:28] <eroomde> but SolarNRG
[18:28] <SpeedEvil> But Ti is way denser
[18:28] <eroomde> so
[18:28] <SolarNRG> WTF? Titanium is like 4x the vickers hardness of ally
[18:28] <eroomde> the precooler is not exposed to the free stream
[18:28] <SpeedEvil> SolarNRG: And you don't care about hardness
[18:28] <eroomde> think about why the air is at 1000C when it enters the pre cooler
[18:28] <SpeedEvil> SolarNRG: For many strutural applications.
[18:28] <SolarNRG> In this case I'd be more worried about tensile strength
[18:28] <eroomde> it's bacause you've slowed it right down
[18:29] <eroomde> so it has heated up
[18:29] <eroomde> that's what the big pointy bits on the front of sabre do
[18:29] <eroomde> they create a shock and move in and out so that the shock iteracts with the nacelle to get this condition
[18:29] <SolarNRG> I also know they're not sucking in 100 percent of the air that is fed into the precooler, hence the bypass
[18:29] <eroomde> same as the sr-71
[18:29] Action: SpeedEvil hopes SpaceX buys the rights to this, and does something fun with it.
[18:29] <eroomde> i hope they dont
[18:29] <SpeedEvil> (in some ways)
[18:30] <SolarNRG> The SR-71 is a good case study for Skylon actually!
[18:30] <SpeedEvil> And yes - I know that it would be nice to get UK space going.
[18:30] <eroomde> so the pre cooler has to cool slower hotter denser air
[18:30] <SpeedEvil> I just have doubts.
[18:30] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: Is there any published timeline to actual flying hardware?
[18:31] <priyesh> Upu: :D - we have lots of shells and even a bit of driftwood :P
[18:31] <eroomde> there is
[18:32] <Upu> sounds like the person who found it was a bit of a laugh
[18:32] <SolarNRG> eroomde, I too think it would be great if Britain had its own space program and we did it our own way, but I think we might be better off looking for a totally re-usable 3 stage to orbit syste
[18:32] <SolarNRG> m
[18:32] <priyesh> they packed it up really well
[18:32] <eroomde> SolarNRG: what's the point?
[18:33] <eroomde> we might be able to just about match spacex
[18:33] <eroomde> but then what?
[18:33] <SpeedEvil> SpaceX can in principle get launch costs down below $500/Kg
[18:33] <eroomde> there is plenty of a crowd now in the take-existing-stuff-and-make-it-really-cheap space
[18:33] <SpeedEvil> If they can actually get their launch reusable.
[18:33] <SpeedEvil> In many ways spacex is boring.
[18:33] <eroomde> a uk version wouldn't have access to all the nasa help and money that spacex has had either
[18:33] <SpeedEvil> And could have been done 30 or 40 years ago.
[18:34] <SpeedEvil> And there is little technology in it - other than guidance - that wasn't basically mature 20 years before that.
[18:34] <SpeedEvil> - this is good - if you want a near-term vehicle.
[18:34] <eroomde> i don;t think the guidance particulaerly uses anything that wasn't around 20 years ago either
[18:35] <SpeedEvil> true
[18:35] <SpeedEvil> Friction stir welding?
[18:35] <SolarNRG> I think dragging all that unnecessary weight along with you is what's really going to hold Skylon back, the Russians knew this in 1948 when they researched staged rocketry. Don't get me wrong, the outcome of Sabre may revolutionize everything just like the Hawker Siddley enabled the Harrier, Lunar Lander and F-35
[18:35] <SpeedEvil> Stuff like Sabre and air-breating may be required to get it well below $500/kg
[18:36] <gb73d> i was at a talk by A Bond last Sat at astro soc
[18:36] <SolarNRG> TBH, I've got my doubts Skylon will get beyond Mach 3.25
[18:36] <SpeedEvil> Hmm
[18:36] <Hiena> Ehhh... It does't matter the technology if you choose the wrong execution method.
[18:36] <gb73d> its the body shape
[18:36] <eroomde> not 3.26 SolarNRG ?
[18:36] <gb73d> doesnt look optimum
[18:36] Action: SpeedEvil ponders if the precooler could be used as an intercooler.
[18:36] <gb73d> the propulsion system looks like it work
[18:36] <griffonbot> @aewakefield: RT @apexhab: Some images recovered: http://t.co/Bg4lwv95 #apexhab #ukhas [http://twitter.com/aewakefield/status/195944639499481088]
[18:36] <gb73d> no pilots
[18:37] <SpeedEvil> That would dramatically reduce jet engine NOX exhaust if you could get that to work
[18:37] <SolarNRG> This is based on a testimony from a croaky old guy who flew A-12s and SR-71s out of Groom Lake and said you could do Mach 3.25 over alaska where its cooler, when you get to Nevada you don't want to be doing more than about mach 3.20 as it heats up more. they were told not to go above 800 degrees c as teh blades expanded too much and started shaving away at the titanium honeycomb walls of
[18:37] <SolarNRG> the engines
[18:37] <eroomde> actually the esa funded lapcat project just recently completed looked a keeping the nox down
[18:38] <eroomde> using a precombustor to keep combustion temps down low enough that nitrogen wont react
[18:38] <SpeedEvil> ^and also it would increase efficiency of course, as you can boost the pressure ratio
[18:38] <griffonbot> @aewakefield: RT @apexhab: Apex III L1 has arrived! Currently looking at data from Core board (which still boots and works!). #ukhas #apexhab [http://twitter.com/aewakefield/status/195945048565743616]
[18:38] <eroomde> SolarNRG: but that's the whole point of a precooler
[18:38] <eroomde> i explained this earlier
[18:38] <Hiena> Low level high speed flying is just potato throwing. For a cheap reusable system, it needs a high efficiency low speed platform, which tolerates the reentry loads. Also it should be a giant single stage shit. That case it will works.
[18:38] <eroomde> conventional jets just don;t work with such hot air coming in
[18:39] <eroomde> so you cool the air right down and you're back in business
[18:39] <eroomde> which is obviously much easier said than done and has some crafty thermodynamics
[18:39] <SolarNRG> OK, you've got around that problem, now tell me about the temperature of the outer shell. The surface temperature is going to increase exponentially with velocity in atmoshpere
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[18:39] <russss> SolarNRG: I presume conventional rockets have already considered that part
[18:39] <eroomde> yes
[18:40] <eroomde> recall the amosphere gets thinner as you go up
[18:40] <SpeedEvil> Well - no
[18:40] <eroomde> you're not doing mach 5 at sea level
[18:40] <SpeedEvil> Conventional rockets do not do significant speed in the thick atmosphere
[18:40] <SpeedEvil> From memory - Shuttle is at ~mach 3 when it hits max dynamic pressure
[18:40] <SpeedEvil> - this won't quite be max heating, but it won't be long after that
[18:40] <russss> the main issue there is not heating but airframe stress
[18:41] <SpeedEvil> Indeed.
[18:41] <Hiena> Until the ship in the atmosphere the speed should be slow as possible. That goes to the climb and the reentry. With the interrupted reentry method, the skin temperature could be kept under the common materials tolerance level.
[18:41] <russss> I don't know what the proposed altitude/speed profile of skylon is though
[18:41] <SolarNRG> In 1988, we sold Saddam a gun that could hit space via the Canadian "gerald bull". The gun barrel was made in sheffield. Why can't Britain have its own supercannon and get an aircraft out of the atmosphere and up to Mach 9 before even firing its engine. I think this idea would be a lot simpler and more feasible to do
[18:41] <SpeedEvil> SolarNRG: Because gun launchers suck.
[18:42] <eroomde> you're trolling now
[18:42] <SpeedEvil> SolarNRG: They constrain the diamater of your payload, mean you have to have shock resistant everything, create hypersonic booms, can't be aimed easily, ...
[18:42] <SolarNRG> Quicklaunch don't agree with that assertion Speedevil, and no I'm not trolling at all Project HARP reached an altitude of 180km with a gun!
[18:42] <SpeedEvil> Reaching an altitude of 180km is trivial.
[18:43] <SpeedEvil> You can easily do that with a very, very modest first conventional stage
[18:43] <SolarNRG> SpeedEvil, exactly my point! Its trivial, why not build a SSTO, gun assisted system?
[18:43] <SpeedEvil> that imposes several orders of magnitude less stress on your payload than the gun
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[18:43] <Hiena> Also, using horisontal launch and airbreathing engines parallel with the rockets, the usable fuel load would be enoug, for the active reentry braking. That is the main reason why the rockets sucks.
[18:43] <SpeedEvil> Because it may well be harder.
[18:44] <SolarNRG> Hiena, agreed! Jets have much much higher ISP than rockets
[18:44] <SpeedEvil> For SSTO things over - say - 50 tons GLOW - the entire cost of launch is pretty much ~60s of coast from mach 1 to mach 3
[18:44] <SolarNRG> Also I think Skylon would have a great advantage over the shuttle as it could probably do a powered landing as opposed to essentially a controlled crash
[18:45] <eroomde> no
[18:45] <eroomde> it can't reenter with fuel
[18:46] <SolarNRG> eeroomde? Why not? Surely there's a trickle of fuel left to restart the turbines with and land at RAF Fairford?
[18:46] <eroomde> because it needs to keep the mass low
[18:46] <eroomde> so it can have a very low ballistic coefficient and so not heat up nearly as much on reentry
[18:46] <SpeedEvil> Heating is ~proportional to mass
[18:46] <Hiena> And not so hard to design subsonic 10:1 L/D airframe which has at least 4:1 supersonic L/D. That means for the take-off only 1/8th thrust needed. Not to mention the safer operation.
[18:47] <eroomde> and since when is gliding a 'controlled crash'?
[18:47] <SpeedEvil> Airliners are functionally gliding when landing
[18:47] <eroomde> and why would you want to land at raf fairford?
[18:47] <SolarNRG> I heard an interview with the last shuttle pilot training for STS 135 saying the shuttle descends like 3 times steeper than most passenger aircraft and they have to do 1000 simulated landings in a custom jet so they get it right
[18:48] <Hiena> SpeedEvil: heat radiation proportional with the surface. Bigger surface less heating.
[18:48] <SolarNRG> The Runways big enough for B52s
[18:48] <eroomde> yes it's not the best glider
[18:48] <eroomde> but it's a glider
[18:48] <SpeedEvil> Hiena: that too, yes
[18:48] <SpeedEvil> Hiena: Some of the MOOSE-alikes to great advantage of that.
[18:48] <SpeedEvil> We need a non-sucky space program.
[18:48] <eroomde> well yes it could land on pretty much any runway
[18:48] <eroomde> but it might aswell land on the runway it takes off from
[18:49] <SpeedEvil> That gets launch cheap enough to test lots of random shit, much of which won't work.
[18:49] <eroomde> as that has all the infrastructure
[18:49] <eroomde> and skylon can't launch from any old runway
[18:49] <SolarNRG> Hence why I suggested fairford
[18:49] <eroomde> it couldn't launch from fairford
[18:49] <Hiena> Actually water is better surface for the landing and the lift-off for such ship.
[18:49] <SolarNRG> Too small?
[18:49] <eroomde> yep
[18:49] <SolarNRG> Edwards AFB US?
[18:49] <eroomde> perhaps too weak too
[18:50] <SolarNRG> Groom lake, longest in the world
[18:50] <Hiena> Increasing the size the ground load increasing which requires bigger and bigger, and more sofisticated landing gears.
[18:50] <eroomde> edward afb runway isn't quite long enough either i don't think
[18:51] <eroomde> it need i think 5.x km of runway
[18:51] <eroomde> can't remember x
[18:51] <Hiena> On the water the load distributed on the wetted surfece.
[18:51] <eroomde> and the runway needs to be very strong as the loads are very high
[18:51] <eroomde> the takeoff speed is close to mach 0.5
[18:52] <Hiena> That means no needs landin gears or runways. Also the most big water surfaces far from the populated areas, so safer the operation.
[18:52] <SpeedEvil> Won't somebody think of the Cormorants!
[18:53] <SolarNRG> The only option then is to rebuild the 20,000 year old runway at Nasca Peru
[18:53] <Hiena> eroomde: not necessary. For an SST size simply 2 football field wing area enoug for a moderated few hundred km/h take off.
[18:54] <eroomde> sure but skylon in it's current configuration requires a runway as i described
[18:54] <eroomde> and has that takeoff speed
[18:54] <eroomde> and that's the configuration we're assuming atm
[18:54] <Hiena> That is why the Skylon is a dead bird.
[18:55] <Hiena> Same as the SST.
[18:55] <SpeedEvil> I guess landing (if you don't need to take off again) is lots easier
[18:55] <SolarNRG> The nasca lines are the length of 26km, flat, straight and wide. They look man made, its ancient and nobody knows why they were made
[18:55] <SolarNRG> But I think they would be ideal for Skylon
[18:55] <SolarNRG> Built on a mountain, strong enough for ya?
[18:56] <eroomde> I don't know that they'd be strong enough
[18:56] <eroomde> look it's not like we need to go all dan brown about this
[18:56] <eroomde> there are plenty of places in the word where a spaceport could put a 5km runway
[18:57] <Hiena> Skylon will be usefull as a Ming vase. Expensive, state of the art eyecandy.
[18:57] <eroomde> it's not a huge technical consideration
[18:58] <SolarNRG> Britain's got a land problem and its not close to the equator.
[18:58] <SolarNRG> I think this is perfect: http://www.nunukphotos.com/images/nazca-lines-11-pv.jpg
[18:58] <eroomde> it doesn't need to be launched in briatin
[18:58] <eroomde> britain*
[18:58] <SolarNRG> What's wrong with Peru then?
[18:58] <SpeedEvil> Also - some of the northwest of scotland may work
[18:59] <eroomde> i don't know - potentially nothing
[18:59] <SpeedEvil> Though is annoyingly high inclination
[18:59] <eroomde> but it's not a dichotomy SolarNRG
[18:59] <eroomde> you can launch where a spaceport thinks its economic to put itself
[19:00] <SolarNRG> Dubai then
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[19:00] <eroomde> maybe
[19:00] <eroomde> i am not a spaceport
[19:00] <eroomde> i do not know
[19:00] <SpeedEvil> You don't want to do Dubai
[19:00] <SolarNRG> They got the dosh
[19:01] <eroomde> i don't think 'economic' means 'go somewhere where people are rich'
[19:01] <eroomde> it means go somewhere where it makes financial sense to put a spaceport
[19:01] <SpeedEvil> You really don't want to put your launch facility anywhere with either political issues, the likelyhood of being blockaded in any manner, and the issue of technology transfers.
[19:01] <eroomde> near the equator for equatorial orbits
[19:01] <eroomde> easy to get to
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[19:01] <eroomde> politically conducive to importing other country's space hardware
[19:01] <eroomde> etc
[19:02] <SolarNRG> French Guiana, build an expansion to ESA's existing site
[19:02] <eroomde> yes that's a very possible option
[19:03] <SpeedEvil> Woomera Rocket Range!
[19:03] <SpeedEvil> :)
[19:03] <SolarNRG> Woomera's out of the question, skylon would suck far too much dust into the engines
[19:04] <fsphil-laptop> gonna be a while before they're considering launch locations
[19:04] <SolarNRG> Not in our lifetimes
[19:04] <SolarNRG> Maybe out grandchildren's
[19:05] <fsphil-laptop> I'm optimistic
[19:05] <Upu> me too
[19:05] <fsphil-laptop> these are smart people
[19:05] <eroomde> if there's functing, it could be up in about 10 years
[19:05] <eroomde> that's obiovusly an enormous if
[19:05] <SolarNRG> We're spending far too much money on perpatuating the afghan heroin trade
[19:05] <eroomde> but for now the priority is to complete the pre cooler testing, demonstrate the frost control works
[19:06] <eroomde> then that should unlock the next trache of funcding to build a full scale sabre 4 engine on the ground, and build the nacelle test vehicle
[19:06] <Upu> SolarNRG give them time, science is about testing, failing, improving and testing again
[19:06] <Upu> anyway isn't it about time for a change of topic ?
[19:06] <eroomde> which will be a sort of scale model skylon sounding rocket which will fly at high mach at about 20km, to test shock interations with the nacelles and other aerodynamics
[19:06] <fsphil-laptop> jaffa cakes!
[19:06] <eroomde> that in itself will be a very interesting and exciting
[19:06] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: Fun.
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[19:07] <SolarNRG> Let's go back to tripropellant, is there a way of containing fluorine?
[19:07] <Lunar_Lander_> hello
[19:07] <eroomde> SolarNRG: why are you so inetrested in tripropellant?
[19:07] <SpeedEvil> Triprop is basically ruinously expensive and hard for dubious gains.
[19:07] <SolarNRG> I think its high ISP may make an SSTO rocket possible
[19:07] <eroomde> you don't need it for ssto to be possible :)
[19:08] <eroomde> you just need an air breathing rocket engine
[19:08] <SpeedEvil> You can do SSTO with LOX/Kero just fine.
[19:08] <Upu> evening Lunar_Lander
[19:08] <Upu> how are you ?
[19:08] <SolarNRG> SpeedEvil, bollocks, its never been done!
[19:08] <fsphil-laptop> evening mr. LL
[19:09] <daveake> LO LL
[19:09] <Lunar_Lander_> hello everyone
[19:09] <Lunar_Lander_> fine thanks, Upu and you?
[19:09] <Upu> very well thanks
[19:10] <Upu> how did the ATC liaison stuff go ?
[19:10] <Lunar_Lander_> ah can't tell sorry, I just came home and I already told dan that I am on leave this and next weekend
[19:10] <Lunar_Lander_> but last time x-f did a call with Dan and that seems to have worked OK
[19:10] <Upu> oh ok
[19:11] <Upu> launch is postponded anyway
[19:11] <Lunar_Lander_> ah
[19:11] <Lunar_Lander_> what happened?
[19:12] <Upu> not sure
[19:12] <Upu> Dan mailed the list though
[19:12] <Upu> not happy with the gear I think
[19:12] <Upu> no point rushing
[19:12] <fsphil-laptop> programming problems from the sounds of it
[19:13] <Lunar_Lander_> oh I see
[19:13] <Lunar_Lander_> on my end I finally tried the wire on the actual cord that I bought from RocketBoy
[19:14] <Lunar_Lander_> set the PSU back to 2.5 V and 3.2 Amps and then connected it
[19:14] <Lunar_Lander_> there was a smell and it smoked and about 4 seconds for wire seperation
[19:15] <Upu> is this triggered from a board yet ?
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[19:16] <Lunar_Lander_> no, that was a bench test still
[19:16] <nigelvh> Lunar, I keep telling you to just try it from some batteries.
[19:16] <nigelvh> The power supply means nothing.
[19:17] <Lunar_Lander_> yea
[19:17] <nigelvh> But yes, at least you know that the wire is capable of cutting your rope.
[19:17] <Lunar_Lander_> I'll do that at the start of next week, I wanted to try out one of the 9V-Blocks but didn't have time to get one
[19:17] <Lunar_Lander_> yea
[19:18] <Lunar_Lander_> my prof also insists we should try to see if that 2000 mAh Lipoly still works afters some time in the -80°C freezer
[19:19] <nigelvh> Doesn't hurt to test. Though in your payload, and the thermal mass of the battery, it won't be anywhere near -80. The lowest the inside of my payloads ever get is about -10, and that's in the air in there. Not counting thermal mass.
[19:19] <SolarNRG> Lunar lander, have you not thought about pressurizing the lipoly chamber with a thermostat and some nicrome wire to keep the battery's temperature constant?
[19:21] <nigelvh> I don't think there's a need for either pressure or heaters. My lithiums work fine
[19:22] <Lunar_Lander_> yea
[19:22] <Lunar_Lander_> nigelvh, that I know, do you remember the long Horus flight from Adelaide to Sydney?
[19:22] <daveake> Pressurizing and heating a chamber to keep batteries warm for a cutdown? Madder than a box of frogs
[19:23] <eroomde> a pattern is emerging
[19:23] <nigelvh> Lunar, not really.
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[19:24] <Lunar_Lander_> nigelvh, it drifted one whole night across southern australia at 37000 m
[19:24] <nigelvh> Ok.
[19:24] <Lunar_Lander_> if the temp sensor was correct, the minimum temp inside was -25
[19:24] <nigelvh> Yeah
[19:24] <Lunar_Lander_> and the -80 test is because we have that fridge
[19:24] <nigelvh> Inside it's not nearly as cold
[19:24] <Lunar_Lander_> the other one only does a mere +4
[19:24] <Lunar_Lander_> yeah
[19:24] <Lunar_Lander_> that is true
[19:24] <nigelvh> I'm saying that I don't think that a -80 and a -25 are comparable
[19:24] <Lunar_Lander_> yea
[19:25] <Lunar_Lander_> -80 is like an extreme that is never reached
[19:25] <nigelvh> Get some dry ice. Stick the battery in there for a few.
[19:25] <Lunar_Lander_> yea
[19:25] <Lunar_Lander_> but wait
[19:25] <Lunar_Lander_> that is about the same temperature?
[19:25] <NigeyS> im gonna say a lipo will frezze and stick to lithiums ..
[19:25] <NigeyS> freeze*
[19:26] <Lunar_Lander_> yea
[19:26] <nigelvh> Dry ice is somewhere like -40 or -50, I don't recall off the top of my head.
[19:26] <Lunar_Lander_> we have the energizer Lithium anyway for the main system
[19:26] <fsphil-laptop> lipo at -10 has no hope
[19:26] <fsphil-laptop> sadly
[19:26] <nigelvh> My lipos work fine there.
[19:26] <fsphil-laptop> even that cold?
[19:26] <fsphil-laptop> we had some die at 0c
[19:27] <nigelvh> I've had my payloads down at -10 internal temperatre, and they ran fine on lipos.
[19:27] <nigelvh> Maybe it's their thermal mass keeping them warm, but they worked fine.
[19:27] <SpeedEvil> Cutdown is rather harder
[19:27] <SpeedEvil> normal payloads - sure
[19:27] <fsphil-laptop> yea, this was a small battery and it had very little insulation. also it was launched at night
[19:28] <Lunar_Lander_> yea
[19:28] <NigeyS> early evening! :p
[19:28] <nigelvh> Also consider that I run 0.5W transmitters compared to your 10mW ones. And these were two 2000mAh lipos in series.
[19:28] <Lunar_Lander_> and the 808 also works there afaik?
[19:28] <fsphil-laptop> lol
[19:28] <Lunar_Lander_> and it has an internal lipo
[19:28] <Lunar_Lander_> xD nigelvh
[19:28] <Lunar_Lander_> mine is also 2000 mAh
[19:29] <fsphil-laptop> I suppose having it well insulated and some resistance heaters might make it possible
[19:29] <nigelvh> I'm all for testing things, but make it a reasonably comparable test, and my experience has been that it works fine.
[19:29] <nigelvh> If you're worried about it, duct tape a couple of hand warmer packets to the batteries.
[19:30] <Lunar_Lander_> yea
[19:30] <SolarNRG> You still want to have a bit of give because Lipoly batteries expand and contract, just in case you didn't already know that
[19:32] <nigelvh> It's tape and some hand warmer packets, they're not going to move so much as to have it be an issue in that situation.
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[19:39] <eroomde> crumbs in hair
[19:39] <eroomde> occupational hazard of thinking while eating biscuits
[19:39] <Upu> lol
[19:39] <Upu> either that or you've been pulling your hair out :)
[19:39] <Lunar_Lander_> XD
[19:40] <Lunar_Lander_> I got Dunhills Wine Gums
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[19:40] <SolarNRG> Is there any advantage of using a tantalum hafnium carbide coating around a rocket engine if you want that engine to be 100 percent reusable?
[19:40] <Upu> Lagavulin
[19:40] <Upu> SolarNRG lets not start that conversation again pls
[19:41] <jcoxon> evening
[19:41] <eroomde> SolarNRG: Akin's Rule of spacecraft engineering #1
[19:41] <eroomde> i think you need to internalise it
[19:41] <eroomde> at the moment you're just like a dorwing man
[19:41] <eroomde> spashing about to now effect
[19:41] <eroomde> no*
[19:42] <number10> evening jcoxon
[19:42] <Lunar_Lander_> hello jcoxon
[19:42] <eroomde> drowning*
[19:43] <SolarNRG> My area of research is with microwave smelting of metals, i hope to achieve a method of turning 3d printed parts into was casts and make complex parts with it i hope one day i can use this to make a rocket with
[19:43] <SolarNRG> i shal return when i have a working system
[19:43] <SolarNRG> thank you for your time and god night
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[19:44] <Upu> night
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[19:44] Action: Upu sets mode #highaltitude +b solarnrg
[19:44] <eroomde> lol
[19:44] <eroomde> Upu: http://spacecraft.ssl.umd.edu/akins_laws.html
[19:45] Action: daveake reaches for alcohol
[19:45] <nigelvh> That's one way to go about things...
[19:45] <eroomde> these a fantastic i think
[19:45] <Upu> I've see that before eroomde its great
[19:46] <eroomde> rule 19 is one i often have to say to myself
[19:46] <Upu> lol
[19:46] <eroomde> along with a similar one that goes 'they got the scout rocket into orbit reliably with a paper tape control system. i do need need a faster arm processor'
[19:46] <eroomde> do not*
[19:48] <nigelvh> Paper tape isn't as sensitive to radiation.'
[19:49] <daveake> Well according to Farnell my Fruity Pie should arrive in June
[19:49] <daveake> So first flight in July then :)
[19:49] <Lunar_Lander_> :)
[19:49] <Upu> does it count if you just tie one to a balloon and let it go ?
[19:49] <Lunar_Lander_> XD
[19:49] <daveake> Damn my plan uncovered
[19:49] <nigelvh> That is a 'flight'
[19:50] <Upu> just dangle one in front of a camera and launch it
[19:50] <Upu> hackaday front page guaranteed
[19:50] <daveake> I think HAB points are only gifted if it actually transmits
[19:50] <Upu> meh tis but a small point
[19:50] <daveake> (and that doesn't mean sending RS232 to an Arduino that does the actual work)
[19:50] <nigelvh> Does the transmission have to be recievable?
[19:50] <daveake> Maybe
[19:51] <Upu> anyway Rocketboy won the hab points tally for this year
[19:51] <nigelvh> If it's on it puts out EMI
[19:51] <nigelvh> That's a form of transmission.
[19:51] <Lunar_Lander_> does anyone actually record the HAB points?
[19:51] <Lunar_Lander_> and are there like science collaboration points from Portal 2 Coop?
[19:51] <Upu> no Lunar_Lander_ :)
[19:51] <Lunar_Lander_> xD
[19:52] <nigelvh> It's even an intentional one if you put a big switch on it that says "Transmitter: ON/OFF"
[19:52] <daveake> Well volunteered LL
[19:52] <Lunar_Lander_> LOL
[19:52] <Upu> they non recorded and awarded on a arbitatry basis
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[19:53] <daveake> I think eroomde deserves at least 1.25 HAB points for patience
[19:53] <Upu> more
[19:53] <daveake> 1.25Million
[19:53] <nigelvh> That was a good bit of patience there.
[19:53] <G0DJA> Atach a crystal osc to a small PA and key it - call it an homage to Sputnic
[19:54] <nigelvh> I think though that 42 HABP is a more appropriate amount.
[19:54] <daveake> Already did Buzznik
[19:54] <eroomde> https://havblue.campfirenow.com/room/450111/uploads/3063965/2012-04-27%2020.13.33.jpg
[19:54] <eroomde> latest photo
[19:54] <eroomde> shiiiiiiny
[19:54] <eroomde> and also the rocket
[19:54] <nigelvh> requires login
[19:54] <G0DJA> wants a username and a password
[19:54] <eroomde> oh shit of course it does
[19:54] <daveake> ^^
[19:54] <eroomde> sorry brainless
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[19:55] <G0DJA> KAte is away so I'm off to the pub for a pint :-)
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[19:56] <Upu> have fun G0DJA
[19:56] <eroomde> is kate like samantha in i'm sorry i haven't a clue?
[19:57] <eroomde> http://www.flickr.com/photos/eroomde/6973339760/in/photostream
[19:57] <jonsowman> ah humphrey
[19:57] <jonsowman> i saw that being recorded at dorking halls once
[19:57] <jonsowman> was very funny
[19:58] <eroomde> i miss him
[19:58] <jonsowman> he was excellent
[19:58] <daveake> I forsee a raft of "Sorry but the launch is late - Samantha ........." excuses
[20:00] <G0DJA> eroomde no - Kate actually exists :-)
[20:00] <eroomde> :)
[20:00] <G0DJA> Kate is my partner - she's off at a health spa with her daughters ahead of the youngest getting married in a few weeks time
[20:01] <nigelvh> Fancy
[20:01] <G0DJA> It's only in Sheffield, so not *that* fance ;-)
[20:01] <G0DJA> fancy - even
[20:01] <Laurenceb_> round here a health spar is something else
[20:01] <Laurenceb_> where only men would be interested
[20:01] <nigelvh> They're all foreign places to me.
[20:01] <OZ1SKY_Brian> who is the launcher of "tyke"?
[20:02] <G0DJA> eroomde - try walking down Whitehall or round Stratford in East London with that!
[20:03] <Upu> hey Brian someone from my neck of the woods but I'm not sure who
[20:03] <G0DJA> Looks like peaksky is grounded for the W/E - which is a shame
[20:04] <OZ1SKY_Brian> Upu ahh ok i see, just havent seen any info on the board yet
[20:04] <Upu> yeah I decided not to launch G0DJA
[20:04] <Upu> preditions were crap
[20:04] <Upu> weather was rubbish
[20:04] <G0DJA> Probably wise given the wx prediction Upu
[20:04] <Lunar_Lander_> eroomde, also the sentence is "The cake is a lie" and not "The Kate is a lie"
[20:04] <Lunar_Lander_> xD
[20:05] <G0DJA> I didn't realise the NOTAM ran out the w/e as well
[20:05] <Upu> yeah
[20:05] <Upu> sure they'll get another one
[20:05] <Upu> Sunday prediction is great
[20:05] <G0DJA> When they do at least the FT817 is ready to go again :-)
[20:05] <Upu> but weather is bad
[20:06] <G0DJA> I will need to get it back as I'd like to test the 24G transverter when I'm next in range of one of the beacons
[20:06] <Upu> didn't fancy handing a balloon with 4kg of lift, the surface area of a garage door in high winds
[20:06] <G0DJA> Not fun!
[20:06] <nigelvh> Yeah. They tend not to do well with that.
[20:07] <G0DJA> And it do blow up on tham thar hills...
[20:07] <Upu> screw the balloon its my hands I'd be concerned about :()
[20:07] <Lunar_Lander_> there is a FT790RII on ebay in germany
[20:07] <Lunar_Lander_> but already at 200 euro or so, or the starting price was that#
[20:08] <G0DJA> OK - pint is calling me - See you all later
[20:08] <Upu> enjoy
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[21:10] <tstowe> howdy all
[21:14] <fsphil> evening!
[21:15] <tstowe> I've got a launch coming up next Friday.
[21:17] <tstowe> 15:00 GMT time at 33.013038 -81.298833
[21:17] <tstowe> callsign KJ4RSG-11
[21:18] <tstowe> I'll also be running the APRSdroid app on my phone. The callsign for that will be KJ4RSG-10
[21:19] <tstowe> We also have a SPOT that will be posting to http://share.findmespot.com/shared/faces/viewspots.jsp?glId=0cOWDl8uaZJOsXhkT8d291PzyCpag78kG
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[21:21] <Upu> evening tstowe
[21:21] <tstowe> hiya
[21:22] <Upu> any plan or just an up and down one ?
[21:23] <tstowe> nothing too fancy, a 1,500g balloon with 170 cu ft of helium
[21:23] <tstowe> the payload will be a little less than 4 lbs
[21:24] <Upu> ok cool
[21:24] <tstowe> we are planning one this summer where we will try to launch in the dark and try to catch a sunrise at 100,000 ft
[21:24] <Randomskk> that is very pretty
[21:25] <Upu> yeah I fancy trying that some time
[21:25] <tstowe> and possibly one in the fall with two GoPro cameras
[21:25] <Randomskk> http://www.flickr.com/photos/cuspaceflight/sets/72157621752577188/
[21:25] <Randomskk> almost worth the early morning start
[21:26] <Upu> what time did you start that day ?
[21:26] <tstowe> here's one some guys from Texas did: http://www.mikedeep.com/Project-Soar/Sunrise-Soar-II-2010-08-07/13394100_X2Pv4g#!i=974408439&k=QmiZg
[21:26] <priyesh> we did that with Apex II L2
[21:26] <jonsowman> we left surrey at 9pm for Apex II
[21:27] <Laurenceb_> http://www.flickr.com/photos/cuspaceflight/3742393062/in/set-72157621752577188/
[21:27] <priyesh> wasn't it midnight jonsowman ?
[21:27] <Randomskk> I wasn't there but istr it was something like 4 or 5 AM
[21:27] <Laurenceb_> yawn
[21:27] <tstowe> I figured you have to launch 90 minutes before sunrise.
[21:27] <jonsowman> priyesh: erm, maybe
[21:27] <priyesh> yeah.. i remember getting to ed's house at 11pm
[21:27] <jonsowman> ah ok
[21:27] <priyesh> i went to sleep at 9pm
[21:28] <priyesh> lol 1.5 hours sleep
[21:28] <jonsowman> i slept all day
[21:28] <priyesh> well it was a really good launch
[21:28] <priyesh> got some really cool images
[21:28] <jonsowman> then drove 500 odd miles in the next 24 hours
[21:28] <jonsowman> it was totally worth it
[21:28] <jonsowman> great fun
[21:29] <tstowe> we will be close enough to the ocean to see the coast.
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[21:33] <tstowe> the best part is that it is expected to come down close by...only 20 or 30 miles away
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[21:55] <Darkside> hmm
[21:57] <Lunar_Lander_> hello Dan-K2VOL
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[22:01] <Dan-K2VOL> hey lunar
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[22:35] <Lunar_Lander_> good evening jcoxon
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[22:53] <gonzo-mob> Evenin peoples
[22:54] <fsphil-laptop> hello from the peoples of earth.. and there's a few others here too
[22:55] <gonzo-mob> What's the news on the launches sat/sun?
[22:55] <gonzo-mob> Eve phil
[22:55] <fsphil-laptop> no launches this weekend
[22:55] <gonzo-mob> Wx?
[22:55] <fsphil-laptop> yea
[22:56] <fsphil-laptop> peaksky was the only one I think
[22:56] <natrium42> i am disappoint.
[22:56] <gonzo-mob> Rgr, suspected so
[22:57] <gonzo-mob> I'm up in shropshire for the weekend, but packed the radio/laptop in case
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[23:11] <Lunar_Lander_> ohhhh
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[00:00] --- Sat Apr 28 2012