highaltitude.log.20120322

[00:00] <Lunar_Lander> I said, I was told any other device should have one
[00:00] <Lunar_Lander> and I told him that Upu's GPS has one
[00:00] <Matt_soton> although you would wnat to decouple at the regulator input
[00:00] <r2x0t> I had some digilent kits, they are usable
[00:00] <Matt_soton> r2x0t: thats quite neat :)
[00:01] <r2x0t> http://www.digilentinc.com/Products/Detail.cfm?NavPath=2,400,798&Prod=CMOD
[00:01] <Lunar_Lander> you mean from the regulator into the power rail?
[00:01] <Matt_soton> Lunar_Lander: until wire has no resistance and batteries have no internal resistance you will need decoupling caps
[00:01] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[00:01] <Matt_soton> and even then they reduce noise and so on
[00:02] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[00:02] <Matt_soton> most regs will want a cap from vin to gnd
[00:02] <Matt_soton> r2x0t: combine with jtag progammer and go?
[00:02] <r2x0t> yes
[00:02] <Matt_soton> jtag programmer...
[00:02] <Matt_soton> ebay...
[00:02] <r2x0t> really nice kit to start playing with FPGAs
[00:03] <Matt_soton> well its more a case of now i want a fpga i can put on stuff
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[00:03] <r2x0t> FPGAs are great for realtime stuff
[00:03] <Lunar_Lander> he says there is no noise
[00:03] <Lunar_Lander> :(
[00:04] <Matt_soton> Lunar_Lander: its not just a noise issue
[00:05] <Matt_soton> if you dont decouple the AVR will put out 16MHz spikes on the power rail as every flip flop changes state at once and draws power
[00:05] <Matt_soton> that will then go into the gps
[00:05] <Matt_soton> and generally cause a noisy power rail
[00:05] <Matt_soton> which will upset stuff
[00:05] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[00:05] <Lunar_Lander> noooo
[00:05] <Lunar_Lander> he went to bed
[00:05] <Lunar_Lander> :(
[00:06] <Matt_soton> just ignore him and solder the cap on :P
[00:06] <Lunar_Lander> but yea, that is important to look at
[00:06] <Lunar_Lander> yea :)
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[00:06] <Lunar_Lander> btw just to understand
[00:06] <Lunar_Lander> the avr will have spikes on the data lines?
[00:06] <Lunar_Lander> btw i got a arduino pro mega 3.3V which is 8 MHz
[00:06] <Matt_soton> well the data lines arnt the issue, its the power rails
[00:07] <Matt_soton> but the data lines are 'powered' by the supply rail so i suppose yes
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[00:08] <Lunar_Lander> well I plan for the following design
[00:09] <Lunar_Lander> a voltage regulator on a stripboard powers a power rail for the devices as I read that the GPS can't be powered from the arduino
[00:09] <Lunar_Lander> and next to the stripboard is the arduino
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[00:10] <Matt_soton> you can put the arduino and gps on the same power rail no issues
[00:10] <Matt_soton> (if you decouple) :P
[00:10] <Lunar_Lander> hm well I haven't decided yet
[00:11] <Lunar_Lander> I assume that the arduino gets a battery
[00:11] <Lunar_Lander> and the stripboard gets one too
[00:11] <Matt_soton> you can use the same battery :\
[00:12] <Lunar_Lander> oh
[00:12] <Lunar_Lander> how?
[00:12] <Matt_soton> r2x0t: do these CPLD parts tend to have ROM/RAM in them?
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[00:15] <Lunar_Lander> if I may ask that probably stupid question
[00:15] <Randomskk> Lunar_Lander: you just connect them together...
[00:16] <Randomskk> so battery -> 3v3 regulator, and also arduino
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[00:16] <Randomskk> 3v3 regulator -> GPS, NTX2, etc
[00:16] <Matt_soton> small cpld with memory was a bit optimistic
[00:17] <Randomskk> with memory is optimistic for mid range fpgas :/
[00:17] <Lunar_Lander> ah, that means that a DC plug comes out of that board power rail so to speak?
[00:17] <Matt_soton> cyclone III not mid range fpga?
[00:17] <Lunar_Lander> like a chain
[00:17] <Matt_soton> so you having one board per device Lunar_Lander ?
[00:18] <Matt_soton> you can just attach all the VCC and all GND together
[00:18] <Lunar_Lander> I bought myself a stripboard about 10x20 cm in size
[00:18] <Lunar_Lander> for the first flight I'll only have GPS and NTX2
[00:18] <Matt_soton> what else do you need? :P
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[00:18] <Lunar_Lander> later, there will be sensors and a SD
[00:19] <Matt_soton> well temperature, for eg, its just a programming task really
[00:19] <Matt_soton> assuming ds18b20 hardwire is really simple
[00:20] <Darkside> which it is
[00:20] <Lunar_Lander> yea, that is the thing with the resistor across data and GND
[00:20] <Darkside> uhh
[00:20] <Lunar_Lander> when I remember correctly
[00:20] <Darkside> resistor from data to VCC
[00:20] <Lunar_Lander> oh OK
[00:20] <Darkside> its a pullup resistor
[00:21] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[00:21] <Matt_soton> also you can use the AVRs internal pullup
[00:21] <Lunar_Lander> is pulldown the thing I first described?
[00:21] <Matt_soton> yea
[00:21] <Darkside> Matt_soton: oh?
[00:21] <Darkside> tbh i haven't tried using them without a 4.7K pullup
[00:21] <Matt_soton> well they say 4.7K, im guessing internal is more then that
[00:21] <Matt_soton> i cant remember what i did
[00:21] <Randomskk> internal pullup is approx 10k to 100k
[00:21] <Randomskk> ish
[00:21] <Randomskk> but tbh probably fine
[00:22] <Randomskk> it's good enough for i2c at low ish speeds
[00:22] <Matt_soton> ish
[00:22] <Darkside> mm
[00:22] <Randomskk> and one wire is even lower
[00:22] <Randomskk> Matt_soton: I think it's poorly-controlled
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[00:22] <Randomskk> though I don't know why that would be.
[00:22] <Randomskk> the datasheet seems to shy away from specifying a value but maybe I just didn't look in the right places (I wasn't really looking, either)
[00:22] <Matt_soton> well i put a space for a 4.7K pullup, whether i fitted it is a diffrent mater
[00:23] <Matt_soton> oh i did
[00:23] <Matt_soton> who knows if it will work then
[00:23] <Matt_soton> probably will :P
[00:24] <Darkside> probably not over as long a run though
[00:24] <Matt_soton> well it would sometimes
[00:24] <Matt_soton> which is the worst type of not working
[00:24] <Lunar_Lander> how would the internal pullup be activated?
[00:25] <Darkside> Lunar_Lander: use a resistor.
[00:25] <Matt_soton> when the pin is set to input, writing to the output register sets the pullup
[00:25] <Matt_soton> no idea using arduino stuff though
[00:25] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[00:25] <Lunar_Lander> just wanted to understand
[00:25] <Lunar_Lander> btw
[00:26] <Lunar_Lander> metal film or carbon?
[00:26] <Darkside> shouldn't matter
[00:26] <Matt_soton> whatever you have in your draw
[00:26] <Lunar_Lander> yea
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[00:34] <r2x0t> Matt_soton: this Xilinx CoolRunner II CPLD in non-volatile (at least for code you program it with)
[00:34] <r2x0t> you can make RAM/ROM cells from logic elements
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[00:34] <r2x0t> but it consumes them quickly
[00:34] <Matt_soton> yea i was thinking a sine table
[00:34] <r2x0t> some bigger FPGAs have special memory blocks
[00:35] <Matt_soton> the cyclone III i have has 500kb or so
[00:35] <r2x0t> yes
[00:35] <Matt_soton> and thats only the low end
[00:35] <r2x0t> yep...
[00:35] <Matt_soton> so i think external memory
[00:35] <r2x0t> first check the datasheet of that coolrunner
[00:35] <r2x0t> but I don't think it have mem cells
[00:36] <Matt_soton> are these the MAX II parts?
[00:37] <r2x0t> http://www.xilinx.com/support/documentation/coolrunner-ii.htm
[00:37] <r2x0t> is on the digilent board
[00:37] <Matt_soton> oh oops i was looking at altera
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[00:37] <Matt_soton> na they dont
[00:38] <Matt_soton> those things have the advantage of that eval board though
[00:38] <r2x0t> but what sin for?
[00:38] <r2x0t> you can use cordic to make it
[00:38] <Matt_soton> yea i was think that
[00:38] <Matt_soton> needs a multiplier?
[00:38] <r2x0t> no
[00:38] <r2x0t> that's why it's nice :)
[00:38] <Matt_soton> oh adder?
[00:39] <Matt_soton> yea i remember now
[00:39] <r2x0t> just adders + shifts
[00:39] <r2x0t> I use it all the time
[00:39] <Matt_soton> the reason i didnt use it in my cyclone III thing is they cant produce 'proper' quadrature outputs
[00:39] <Matt_soton> but i dont need that
[00:39] <r2x0t> wtf
[00:39] <Matt_soton> or near enough will do
[00:39] <r2x0t> they can
[00:39] <r2x0t> I use it in my SDR
[00:39] <Matt_soton> i shall find where i saw that
[00:39] <r2x0t> as I/Q mixer
[00:40] <Matt_soton> oh the otehr tihng is they arnt linear
[00:40] <r2x0t> works great, 0.05Hz resolution, 32bit output... perfect sin/cos
[00:40] <r2x0t> linear?
[00:40] <Matt_soton> as in the freuqncy input value to the output frequency
[00:41] <r2x0t> it's just mixer, not filter, so it's bit precise and lossless to some degree of rounding
[00:41] <r2x0t> and you set it with frq/clock
[00:42] <r2x0t> anyway, that's way to go
[00:42] <r2x0t> if you need just say 8 bits, it will be small
[00:42] <Matt_soton> yea seems good
[00:42] <r2x0t> if you don't need output every clock, you can even make it multi clock
[00:42] <Matt_soton> the reason why i didnt previously use them is a bit irrelevent
[00:42] <r2x0t> share same logic, do it sequentially
[00:43] <Matt_soton> yea i may not have space but they tend to go up quite high freq
[00:43] <r2x0t> they go nicely on high clocks, because no multipliers
[00:44] <Matt_soton> this is what i was looking at http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?arnumber=01203213
[00:44] <Matt_soton> and http://www.milton.arachsys.com/nj71/pdf/drdes/Chap7.pdf
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[00:45] <Matt_soton> table 7-1 on the second link says the modified CF is not strictly complex O/P
[00:45] <Matt_soton> mind you my quick excel spreadsheet begged to differ
[00:46] <r2x0t> these oscillators have multipliers in them
[00:46] <r2x0t> so will be much bigger in fpga
[00:46] <Matt_soton> well thats why i thought they required multipliers...
[00:47] <r2x0t> you can check some code on http://opencores.org/projects
[00:48] <Matt_soton> so these add and shift rather then multiply?
[00:49] <r2x0t> yes
[00:49] <r2x0t> this is good pdf: http://www.andraka.com/cordic.htm
[00:50] <r2x0t> it's all just bit shifters, registers and adders
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[00:51] <Matt_soton> one for reading later i think
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[01:38] <Lunar_Lander> still there Matt_soton ?
[01:38] <Matt_soton> just :P
[01:38] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[01:38] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[01:38] <Lunar_Lander> I am just thinking about the veroboard
[01:38] <Lunar_Lander> might be one way for the first flight
[01:39] <Lunar_Lander> do you think there are other ways?
[01:39] <Lunar_Lander> i.e. like designing a PCB later
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[01:39] <Matt_soton> well you can design a pcb
[01:40] <Matt_soton> you could always do it on veroboard but use sockets so you dont waste much on the first revision
[01:40] <Matt_soton> what gps you using?
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[01:41] <Lunar_Lander> I have one of Upu's ublox with sarantel antenna
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[01:42] <Matt_soton> that can be put in a socket i think so thats fine
[01:42] <Matt_soton> put the arduino in a socket
[01:43] <Matt_soton> ntx2 can be soldered in a way that can easily be removed
[01:43] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[01:43] <Lunar_Lander> I got a Pro mega
[01:43] <Lunar_Lander> not a mini
[01:43] <Lunar_Lander> is that OK too?
[01:43] <Matt_soton> er
[01:44] <Matt_soton> so is the veloboard going ontop of the arduino?
[01:44] <Matt_soton> or you using a DIP IC?
[01:44] <Lunar_Lander> I thought of having the board besides the arduino actually
[01:44] <Lunar_Lander> no, the mega has a SMD IC
[01:44] <Lunar_Lander> like the normal arduino mega
[01:45] <Matt_soton> well you can get them in DIP versions
[01:45] <Lunar_Lander> the atmega2560 too?
[01:45] <Matt_soton> er
[01:45] <Matt_soton> maybe not
[01:45] <Matt_soton> :P
[01:45] <Matt_soton> either way, doesnt matter with respect to your original question
[01:46] <Lunar_Lander> OK
[01:46] <Lunar_Lander> I thought to have veroboard and arduino side by side in the payload
[01:46] <Matt_soton> you could always make it on veloboard then change your mind later and only 'lose' a few resistors and sockets
[01:46] <Matt_soton> i think it would be tidier if they stacked but it doesnt really matter
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[01:48] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[01:48] <Lunar_Lander> I thought that I could solder in things like the resistors for the NTX2
[01:48] <Lunar_Lander> and then have sockets for GPS and NTX2
[01:49] <Matt_soton> the only issue with the nxt2 is you probably dont want the antenna doing thorugh a socket onto veloboard and so on
[01:50] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[01:50] <Matt_soton> but in practice how much differnce that makes i dont know
[01:50] <Lunar_Lander> oh ok
[01:50] <Lunar_Lander> I just was about to ask why is that
[01:51] <Matt_soton> well there is alot of capacitance on these connectors and veloboard that will mean you get power loss
[01:51] <Matt_soton> the impedance isnt 50ohm
[01:52] <Matt_soton> bnc connectors are designed for low loss for 50ohm devices
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[01:52] <Matt_soton> mind you providing you keep traces short it should reduce the effect
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[01:52] <Randomskk> pfft
[01:53] <Randomskk> I once had a payload with an NTX on stripboard
[01:53] <Lunar_Lander> oh
[01:53] <Randomskk> and in fact it just had the antenna soldered to the stripboard traces too
[01:53] <Randomskk> and in fact the RF GND was actually soldered to RF OUT
[01:53] <Randomskk> it still gave S9+40
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[01:53] <Matt_soton> yea so keep things short :)
[01:54] <Lunar_Lander> hm ok
[01:54] <Matt_soton> also Randomskk, Lunar_Lander intends to socket it, which will add a bit more loss
[01:54] <Lunar_Lander> is like 20 cm across the board bad?
[01:54] <Matt_soton> probably not that much though
[01:54] <Lunar_Lander> well that was just an idea
[01:54] <Matt_soton> well put the antenna socket and ntx2 right next to each other
[01:54] <Matt_soton> and break the track
[01:54] <Randomskk> http://www.flickr.com/photos/randomskk/4414038838/in/set-72157623572598718
[01:54] <Randomskk> lol
[01:55] <Randomskk> don't do that ^
[01:55] <Randomskk> also maybe it was fixed by the time I took that photo, but
[01:55] <Randomskk> the shield wire was shorting RF OUT too
[01:55] <Randomskk> fwiw that payload flew and the radio worked fine and was recovered
[01:55] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[01:55] <Lunar_Lander> the black wire is the antenna?
[01:55] <Randomskk> the payload was also put together inside of four hours one frantic afternoon
[01:55] <Randomskk> yes
[01:55] <Randomskk> but don't do it like that >_>
[01:55] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[01:55] <Lunar_Lander> how could I do it?
[01:56] <Lunar_Lander> I got a arduino pro mega 3.3V as I said
[01:56] <Randomskk> well to be fair I guess there's not much else you can do like that
[01:56] <Lunar_Lander> btw as the headers are soldered by me, it isn't shield compatible anymore
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[01:56] <Matt_soton> that isnt too bad, providing after the ntx2 the track is broken on RF out
[01:57] <Lunar_Lander> how exactly?
[01:57] <Matt_soton> you get these tools that do it
[01:58] <Matt_soton> they look like drill bits with a little handle
[01:58] <Matt_soton> just turn in in a hole on hte copper side and itll remove the copper around the hole
[01:58] <Lunar_Lander> yeah that I know
[01:58] <Lunar_Lander> but where exactly and why do I need to make that break?
[01:59] <Matt_soton> you dont want 20cm of wire connected to the RF output
[01:59] <Matt_soton> itll act like another antenna
[01:59] <Matt_soton> so connect the antenna really close to the nxt2 and break either side
[02:00] <Lunar_Lander> ah!
[02:00] <Lunar_Lander> so that the copper strip below isn't an antenna
[02:01] <Lunar_Lander> sorry
[02:04] <Matt_soton> anyway off to bed
[02:04] <Matt_soton> laters
[02:05] <Lunar_Lander> good night and thank you Matt_soton
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[08:13] <cuddykid> morning - looks like a nice day in store
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[08:20] <x-f> good morning
[08:20] <x-f> can anybody help me with the burst calculator on habhub.org/predict?
[08:21] <daveake> Mornign :-). Go on ...
[08:22] <x-f> i input payload mass, balloon mass, then "target ascent rate" 5.5 m/s and it give me "ascent rate" of 6.3 m/s
[08:22] <x-f> gives*
[08:22] <daveake> Yeah, it does that
[08:22] <daveake> Ask for 5, see what happens
[08:23] <daveake> I don't know why, but I just adjust the request a bit till the result is close to what I want
[08:23] <x-f> so i have to adjust that, uh-huh
[08:23] <x-f> thanks
[08:23] <x-f> 5.5 for a 1000 hwoyee should be safe, right?
[08:24] <daveake> yep
[08:24] <daveake> 5 is fine too
[08:24] <daveake> In terms of not floating that is. You may need 5.5 rather than 5 for the flight path, depending on the wind
[08:26] <x-f> yes, safe to burst i mean
[08:26] <x-f> thanks, Dave
[08:26] <daveake> I suspect the safe non-float ranget varies
[08:26] <daveake> I'll try again ...
[08:27] <daveake> I suspect the safe non-float range varies with hwowowowoyeee balloon site, and most of the floaters have been 1600s which could mean they're more prone to do it
[08:27] <daveake> size not site
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[08:35] <x-f> ok
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[08:35] <number10> so, nothing to look forward to this weekend daveake
[08:35] <daveake> sorry :(
[08:36] <daveake> it'll be a fun day for all when it does happen
[08:36] <number10> well you cant help the weather
[08:38] <daveake> nope
[08:39] <x-f> SHARP cancelled their flight as well?
[08:39] <daveake> Still on AFAIK
[08:40] <UpuWork> They should do really given the predictions
[08:40] <UpuWork> though I'm not sure what balloon they are using
[08:40] <UpuWork> fast on a small balloon would work
[08:40] <UpuWork> however who gets the ascent rate right on their first go ?
[08:40] <number10> did they sort the crc and comms out I wonder
[08:41] <cuddykid> hopefully over easter there should be some activity my way..
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[08:43] <daveake> Well if next weekend's no good, my egg may be flyiung at Easter
[08:43] <number10> maybe it was meant to happen
[08:43] <daveake> :)
[08:43] <number10> lucky you dodnt do a christmas theme
[08:43] <daveake> Good job I didn't make it inside a toy santa then
[08:43] <number10> span
[08:43] <daveake> too slow lol
[08:43] <number10> snap
[08:44] <number10> just re-arrange the litters I type to try and make the nearest logical word.
[08:44] <number10> talking of litter most of it is crap
[08:45] <daveake> :)
[09:22] <Hix> 13 sold - really? http://goo.gl/twhPh
[09:25] <UpuWork> I think thats the seller who had an AVR programmer for something silly too
[09:26] <UpuWork> maybe not
[09:27] <daveake> What sort of stripper costs that much?
[09:27] <daveake> Don't answert that ...
[09:27] <daveake> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/OLIMEX-AVR-ISP500-TINY-PROGRAMMER-ATMEL-STK500-COMPATIBLE-/260938311779?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item3cc122a863#ht_500wt_1156
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[09:29] <Hix> There seems to be no middle ground with [wire] strippers - its 99p shop shite or 3 figure excessive tools
[09:30] <gonzo_> what's up with the teeth
[09:31] <daveake> Those strippers are the same as the ones I have here, aside from the colour, and I bet I spent £10 or less
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[09:44] <Hix> and randomly 947 for 50 bnc plugs - ebay has som ebargains doesn't it :)
[09:44] <daveake> Do they have the added woowoo?
[09:45] <NigelMoby> maybe they make dinner?
[09:45] <daveake> I tried to coax one of mine into cooking.
[09:46] <NigelMoby> lol oh ure on form today :p
[09:46] <UpuWork> ok transistor pop quiz : http://i.imgur.com/glj5L.png
[09:46] <daveake> That's one view :)
[09:46] <UpuWork> if you pull UBLOX_PWR high
[09:46] <UpuWork> what happens ?
[09:47] <UpuWork> assuming VCC = 3.3v
[09:47] <UpuWork> high is 3.3V
[09:47] <daveake> Emitter follower do you should get 2.7V
[09:47] <daveake> Do I lose already?
[09:47] <daveake> Oh wait
[09:47] <daveake> It's PNP
[09:47] <daveake> I lost
[09:47] <UpuWork> it is
[09:48] <daveake> OK, have a dose of WTF then
[09:48] <zyp> that just looks wrong to me
[09:48] <UpuWork> you're probably correct zyp
[09:48] <UpuWork> showing my lack of knowledge now
[09:49] <UpuWork> the idea was so I could turn the ublox on and off
[09:49] <zyp> you have to swap collector and emitter
[09:49] <zyp> then set high to turn off, low to turn on
[09:49] <daveake> yep
[09:50] <gonzo_> UpuWork, quick question on the ublox gps ......
[09:50] <UpuWork> cheers I'll have a look
[09:50] <zyp> remember that power should flow along the arrow, not against it
[09:50] <Randomskk> yea, what zyp said. the arrow is like a diode
[09:50] <Randomskk> (in fact is very much like a diode)
[09:50] <gonzo_> how do you usually interface the txd out to a 5v device. I was thinking of a diode and pull up to 5v
[09:51] <daveake> Tx from 3V3 GPS to 5V CPU?
[09:51] <daveake> Just connect it
[09:51] <Randomskk> gonzo_: 3v3 TX should go into a 5V RX with no level conversion required
[09:51] <zyp> gonzo_, just hook it up, 3.3V will usually read as high
[09:51] <Randomskk> UpuWork: for a BJT, 10k as a gate bias might be far too high, too
[09:51] <Randomskk> uhm, base bias*
[09:51] <gonzo_> was concerned that the spec for the hi on 3v3 was vcc-about 0.4v
[09:51] <UpuWork> Hmm
[09:52] <Randomskk> I think usually mosfets would be used for power switches, rather than BJTs
[09:52] <Randomskk> (on a mosfet the gate resistor just controls inrush current, but on a BJT, the base resistor in combination with the transistor's current gain sets the operating current)
[09:52] <gonzo_> was worried about getting cliose to threshold
[09:52] <daveake> Yep. 100mA say into the GPS, gain of say >=100, you need 1mA into the base
[09:52] <zyp> but 1mA is not much
[09:52] <UpuWork> ok cheers
[09:53] <daveake> The trannie needs to be hard on for a low drop
[09:53] <gonzo_> but will give direct connection a go
[09:53] <Randomskk> through a 10k resistor it requires 10V
[09:53] <Randomskk> to get 1mA
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[09:53] <gonzo_> that sounds a bit rude dave!
[09:53] <daveake> yep
[09:53] <zyp> true
[09:53] <Randomskk> 10V is a lot for a 3v3 circuit :P
[09:53] <UpuWork> Thats a typo I'm sure I meant 1k
[09:53] <daveake> gonzo_ Yeah, I could see where that sentence was going but I just couldn't be bothered starting again :)
[09:53] <Randomskk> 1k would work better but you can probably get a MOSFET in the same package that might work better
[09:54] <Randomskk> and then use like 1k or 100R as the gate resistor
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[09:54] <daveake> He left the door ajar
[09:55] <zyp> do you even need a gate resistor?
[09:55] <NigelMoby> oh dear Dave lol
[09:55] <UpuWork> I'm not sure where I got this circuit now
[09:55] <Randomskk> *need*
[09:55] <Randomskk> it's like
[09:55] <Randomskk> if you don't you can get really massive current spikes
[09:55] <Randomskk> potentially much larger than your driving logic is meant to do
[09:55] <Randomskk> the mosfet is like a capacitor that you'd be charging up to 3v3 with (almost) no resistance
[09:56] <NigelMoby> gps no like spikes
[09:56] <Randomskk> so onrush current is I=V/R and if R is very small, that can be amps
[09:56] <Randomskk> amps for a very very short amount of time, but then you just get massive transients and all sorts of crap
[09:56] <Randomskk> whereas even like 100R gate resistance solves that problem neatly
[09:56] <daveake> Sounds fair
[09:56] <Randomskk> and as there's no maintained current flowing into the gate you don't lose any voltage over that resistor
[09:57] <daveake> nope
[09:57] <zyp> that is subject to output impedance of the driving signal aswell
[09:58] <Randomskk> true. and the pcb trace impedance and etc
[09:58] <Randomskk> and of course if you are driving it with PWM or an otherwise time-varying signal the gate capacitance will actually have a useful impedance
[09:58] <Randomskk> but to a first approximation you really do want that gate resistor
[09:58] <Darkside> mm i have a 100R gate resistor
[09:59] <Darkside> i also just copied my FET driving design from the altus metrum telemetrum design :P
[09:59] <zyp> driving design?
[09:59] <Darkside> well, FET + 2 resistors
[09:59] <Darkside> lol
[09:59] <Darkside> its actually a dual fet, but anyway
[10:00] <zyp> last time I constructed a high-side power switch I just took a p-channel mosfet and hooked gate directly to a gpio
[10:00] <Darkside> this is low side
[10:00] <zyp> actually, I hooked it to the output of a shift register, but that's irrelevant
[10:01] <zyp> UpuWork's schematic is high-side
[10:02] <zyp> I don't think you really want to switch low-side on a device such as a gps, you want low side to sit firmly on the ground plane
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[11:00] <Hix> Why o why do the pin numbers for a PDIP and SMD chip have to differ....
[11:00] <Hix> for the same chip
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[11:01] <fsphil> it's a test, to make sure you read the datasheet :)
[11:05] <zyp> because the internal wirebonding differs.
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[11:06] <Hix> :|
[11:06] <Hix> started to draw out a rough schematic [in CATIA as I'm supposed to be at work]
[11:07] <Hix> and then thought if im making a circuit board, just do it with an smd
[11:07] <Hix> so downloaded the specsheet
[11:07] <Hix> and bang!
[11:07] <Hix> start again...
[11:07] <Hix> bugger
[11:07] <zyp> is it that different?
[11:07] <zyp> what chip?
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[11:10] <Hix> http://i.imgur.com/jDw3j.png
[11:10] <Hix> http://i.imgur.com/I4gJC.png
[11:10] <Hix> ATMega 328
[11:11] <Hix> doesn't really matter as it's only theoretical but its annoying
[11:11] <Hix> I could have been actually doing some work i suppose :D
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[11:19] <zyp> Hix, as you can see, order of the pins is the exact same
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[11:20] <zyp> pin 1 on MLF equals pin 5 on PDIP
[11:21] <zyp> and that's because the order is the same on the die
[11:22] <zyp> die is square with connections on all four sides
[11:22] <zyp> in a square package that's easy since all pads on die can correspond to pads on each side of package
[11:23] <zyp> in PDIP package only have two sides of pads, so the middle ones on two sides are routed to two of the sides, and each end of both sides are routed to the other two sides
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[11:30] <Hix> zyp can see the logi of it but i'd just mapped pin 1 to pin 1 etc. Lesson #5234 - RTFD...
[11:30] <cuddykid> these boards here are killing me - I just want to get them soldered up!
[11:33] <Hix> on the spec sheet is states that the bottom pad should be soldered to ground - Does this mean the only way to use the MLF is to oven it?
[11:34] <zyp> nah
[11:34] <zyp> should != must
[11:35] <zyp> or you could put a via underneath it and solder from the back side
[11:35] <griffonbot> Received email: Martin "RE: [UKHAS] BBC Radio 2 this afternoon (Ban on Helium)"
[11:35] <Darkside> wat
[11:36] <Hix> thinking zyp :)
[11:36] <daveake_> Jeremy Vine? Expect stupid questions then.
[11:36] <Hix> although the phrasing was amusing
[11:36] <Hix> expected someone to be straight onto that one
[11:37] <cuddykid> oh the wonders of the nanny state..
[11:38] <cuddykid> sod off regulation!
[11:40] <russss> there wouldn't be any problem if the US government hadn't decided to dump all their helium
[11:40] <Hix> to be fair it is on "mass balloon releases"
[11:41] <russss> ah right
[11:41] <russss> I couldn't find any actual news on it
[11:42] <Hix> http://goo.gl/ry2OP
[11:42] <Hix> "Latex is fully biodegradable and an inflated latex balloon decomposes at about the same rate as an oak leaf under similar conditions."
[11:42] <Hix> so it seem reasonably balanced
[11:44] <daveake_> natural selection will soon remove stupid birds who think latex is food from the gene pool :-)
[11:44] <Hix> Though foil balloons are a different story - theres one in a tree at the bottom of my garden thats been there for at least 7 years and it is still in pretty much perfect nick
[11:47] <daveake_> http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/mar/18/helium-party-balloons-squandered
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[11:54] <russss> yeah I found that
[11:54] <russss> making it illegal is the wrong answer really
[11:55] <russss> trying to compensate for the US government's stupidity
[11:55] <Darkside> what do you mean 'dump' their reserves?
[11:56] <russss> Darkside: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Helium_Reserve
[11:56] <Hix> Oleg Kirichek sounds like a bit of a sanctimonious prick - basically he didn't do a stockcheck
[11:56] <russss> in 1996 the US government decided to dump all of their helium by 2015
[11:56] <russss> so they're artificially depressing the market price
[11:57] <russss> and the US (I think still) owns >50% of the world's helium
[11:58] <Darkside> wow
[11:58] <Darkside> so we should probably consider switching to hydrogen then...
[11:58] <russss> price will skyrocket after 2015, so make the most of it while it lasts
[11:58] <russss> the EU should put an import tariff on helium and give the proceeds to particle physics and MRI research
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[11:59] <Hix> someone on here said that CERN vented 3 tonnes of it last year - in one go
[12:00] <Hix> or words to that effect
[12:00] <russss> wasn't that was when they quenched? Can't really avoid that
[12:00] <russss> gas has got to go somewhere
[12:01] <russss> 3 tonnes is not a huge amount in the grand scheme of things. Apparently launching the space shuttle used 4 tonnes every time.
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[12:03] <Hix> be interesting to find out what BOC get through in a year - bet it's surprisingly little in comparisson
[12:03] <russss> an MRI machine generally has ~200kg of helium in it apparently
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[12:03] <Hix> I meant to add sold as balloon gas
[12:04] <russss> yeah, would be interesting
[12:04] <gonzo_> you'll find some accountant who massages the figures by the fact that gaseous it has -ve weight
[12:04] <russss> I get the impression that the majority of helium sold is used for leisure balloons
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[12:06] <Hix> a simple answer would be to market leisure balloon gas with a far lower percentage of helium - just so there is a tiny amount of lift
[12:06] <gonzo_> do we class as leisure?
[12:06] <Hix> research - just make sure there is a barometric sensor :D
[12:07] <gonzo_> or radio prop, or ground station testing...
[12:07] <russss> SCIENCE
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[12:09] <Hix> basic calc is 0.44625kg based on a 2.5m3 launch
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[12:10] <Hix> so 450 HAB to a MRI
[12:11] <russss> I wonder if high temperature superconductors are good enough to make MRI-style superconducting magnets yet
[12:12] <russss> I guess they're way more expensive
[12:12] <russss> so the real question is the ratio of the cost of the magnet to the cost of the coolant.
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[12:22] <gonzo_> in reality, technology will probably have moved on by the time the real shortages kick in
[12:22] <Morseman> Anyone heard about the potential ban on helium filled balloons in UK?
[12:23] <Morseman> News suggests it would be the "party" balloons but still a concern...
[12:25] <zyp> people were just talking about that
[12:26] <Darkside> ugh
[12:26] <Darkside> error on my sdr board
[12:26] <zyp> fix it
[12:26] <Darkside> modified an amplifier on the board to also be a sallen key filter in the last revision
[12:27] <Darkside> and forgot to add the virtual ground on the opamp
[12:27] <Morseman> zyp sorry if duplicating - only just logged on
[12:27] <Darkside> so... yeah, not going to work
[12:27] <daveake_> Anyone fancy tracking a pico/foil balloon on Saturday?
[12:28] <Darkside> daveake_: i'll have to do some launches with you when i'm bck in the UK
[12:28] <daveake_> Sure thing :)
[12:28] <Darkside> since i'll be so close
[12:28] <daveake_> When's that?
[12:28] <Darkside> probably july
[12:28] <Morseman> daveake_ If there's one going - Yes please. Otherwise was going to take the colinea down due to cancelled launches this weekend
[12:29] <Morseman> Sorry - colinear
[12:29] <gonzo_> I'll be about for sat afternoon, in poole
[12:29] <daveake_> Launch would be in Berks. If it fails to float it'll land near Banbury. If it doesn float it'll be over towards Essex - http://habhub.org/predict/#!/uuid=3a871e9e2dc33f38b7df59700d532c9338d21b5a
[12:29] <daveake_> (that's the float part ... have to do these predictions in parts)
[12:30] <NigelMoby> if I can get to a mountain I might do line sat / Sunday
[12:30] <daveake_> Darkside Whereabouts will you be? Bath was it?
[12:30] <NigelMoby> mine*
[12:30] <Darkside> daveake_: yes
[12:31] <Darkside> you're near didcot somewhere, right?
[12:31] <daveake_> That's 10 miles NE of here
[12:31] <Darkside> ooh, you're south of didcot
[12:31] <Darkside> ok
[12:31] <Darkside> well, i know i can get to didcot easily :P
[12:31] <daveake_> About 10 mins from the M4
[12:32] <daveake_> :)
[12:32] <daveake_> Well, I can pick you up from there easily
[12:32] <Darkside> hehe
[12:32] <Darkside> what maps do you guys use on your chases? just spacenearus?
[12:32] <daveake_> We're a bit out of publci transport. Allegedly there is a bus once a day
[12:32] <Darkside> or do you have your own offline system
[12:33] <daveake_> spacenear, plus I've added a thing to poke the car position and balloon position into google maps
[12:33] <Darkside> heh ok
[12:33] <NigelMoby> habhound
[12:33] <daveake_> Offline would be great
[12:33] <Darkside> i'll have to find some maps of the UK
[12:33] <Darkside> and try the project horus offline system in the UK :P
[12:34] <NigelMoby> try habhound mark.
[12:34] <daveake_> Google Maps inside a window in my program - http://www.daveakerman.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/5.jpg
[12:34] <Darkside> if it doesn't load our topographic maps i'm not interested
[12:34] <Darkside> :P
[12:35] <daveake_> So far, on my chases, I've been online pretty much throughout
[12:35] <daveake_> Usually 1 or 2 dropouts
[12:35] <Darkside> yeah not as much issues in the UK
[12:36] <daveake_> Only issue really is spacenear being slow on a mobile connection. Takes a while to load up
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[12:36] <Darkside> yeah we load it before we leave, then don't press refresh
[12:36] <daveake_> :)
[12:36] <Darkside> and we don't use it unless we have to anyway
[12:37] <Darkside> our offline system works *really* well
[12:37] <NigelMoby> habhound is a lot faster, and can precache all the osm data....
[12:37] <Darkside> but it really only works in australia :P
[12:37] <Darkside> NigelMoby: HAH OSM
[12:37] <Darkside> hahahahahaha
[12:37] <Darkside> hahahahahahahahaha
[12:37] <daveake_> Other thing I'm going to try is getting a program at base to listen to the telemetry online, then when it senses a landing for it to email the position to my mobile phone (Android) as a Google Maps link. It's then a press or 3 on the phone to get live directions
[12:37] <Darkside> >_>
[12:38] <Darkside> NigelMoby: OSM doesn't work for where we go
[12:38] <Darkside> we prefer topographic maps
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[12:39] <NigelMoby> ahh, works quite well for here much lighter on the net connection
[12:39] <Darkside> hehe
[12:42] <cuddykid> perfect launch weather today!
[12:42] <cuddykid> unlike -10C a few weeks ago& -_-
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[12:43] <NigelMoby> not here, 27kph winds :(
[12:43] <daveake_> Righto, disposable cylinder ordered for delivery tomorrow
[12:43] <cuddykid> oh :( it's pretty calm here
[12:44] <cuddykid> just been for a lovely run around wollaton park
[12:44] <daveake_> Windy here today. Tomorrow looks much better. Sunday not so good
[12:45] <gonzo_> what's the name of it going to be dave?
[12:45] <daveake_> It's the Buzz tracker from my sea landing :)
[12:45] <cuddykid> hmm, been thinking - wouldn't it be cool (but expensive!) to organise a trip out to nevada/US desert and launch some wacky HAB experiment/stunt where you can actually get permission for those things?!
[12:46] <daveake_> CK if you're thinking of your glider ... do they have a bunker I can hide in?
[12:46] <cuddykid> haha!
[12:46] <cuddykid> yes I was.. and rocket stuff.. :P
[12:46] <daveake_> I know it's a big place but I don't like those odds
[12:46] <cuddykid> especially when I've coded some bits
[12:46] <daveake_> I'll be safe here then :)
[12:47] <daveake_> safer
[12:48] <cuddykid> seeing as someone got permission to drop a chair from 30km then I'm sure my wildest ideas could probably get permission there!
[12:48] <Hix> daveake_, STN migh not like that float path too much
[12:48] <Hix> cuddykid, that chair didn't exactly come dowen on a chute did it :)
[12:48] <daveake_> Good point. I'll drive further north to launch then, assuming it stays that way
[12:49] <cuddykid> daveake_: come up to worcester :D - but I'm not back until afternoon
[12:49] <cuddykid> Hix: I'm not sure whether it did have a chute?! Wasn't it a samsung advert? Can't remember
[12:49] <cuddykid> one of the tech firms
[12:50] <daveake_> I think somewhere near the M40, for easy access, might be a better option. Anyway I'll decide closer to the time. At least with pico you can choose where to launch on the day
[12:50] <cuddykid> yep
[12:50] <daveake_> Cylinder was £32 for a "disposable 50", plus a couple of quid for guaranteed next-day delivery
[12:51] <Hix> cuddykid, yeah it was for their tv - but the chair broke up pretty badly on descent
[12:51] <Hix> wouldn't have fancied that on my head :)
[12:51] <cuddykid> indeed!
[12:51] <cuddykid> and the iPad case drop.. seems to be a common theme of dropping things out there :P
[12:52] <cuddykid> even better - get our trip funded by a company if we offer to do the work of carrying it all up to altitude!
[12:52] <Hix> hmmm - sky TV anyone?
[12:53] <cuddykid> nice!
[12:53] <cuddykid> I like it
[12:53] <daveake_> I'm kinda surprised Richard Branson hasn't sponsored one yet
[12:54] <cuddykid> yeah
[12:55] <pjm> hello, my cheapo DVB-T usb's arrived today, will test their 'sdr' capability later
[12:56] <NigelMoby> oh let us know how it goes pjm
[13:03] <pjm> well i have it apart just to check out the crappy build quality, its all lead-free solder of course
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[13:05] <pjm> it does amaze me, they stick a metalised Q.C. passed label over the usb interface ID and the associated r's and c's
[13:05] <NigelMoby> lol
[13:05] <pjm> and measuring the label with a meter shows a dead short
[13:05] <pjm> unbelieveable
[13:05] <NigelMoby> where u get ures?
[13:05] <pjm> cosycave
[13:05] <pjm> ordered sunday, delivered today
[13:05] <NigelMoby> ahh
[13:06] <Morseman> I was in Notts on Tuesday cuddykid
[13:06] <pjm> https://www.cosycave.co.uk/product.php?id_product=104
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[13:07] <NigelMoby> cheers, ordering...
[13:08] <fsphil> doesn't look like a very safe website :)
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[13:09] <pjm> lol it is crappy but so far i've not been taken for a ride
[13:09] <cuddykid> ahh cool Morseman - were you in the city?
[13:10] <Morseman> I was doing an energy survey at one of the Shops - I also went to another building a week or so back to do a DEC survey so all over the place really :-)
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[13:21] <cuddykid> nice :) it's a good city, I like it
[13:21] <Morseman> I live about 20 miles north of Notts - in Bolsover
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[13:22] <cuddykid> :D
[13:23] <cuddykid> I like how the uni campus is a few miles from the city centre though, gives a nice break and much greener etc :P
[13:23] <griffonbot> Received email: David Akerman "[UKHAS] Buzz Pico Launch"
[13:24] <Morseman> I did a 260 panarama of the Trent building during lunch break once - wonder where I put that picture...
[13:24] <Morseman> 360 even
[13:25] <cuddykid> brilliant, I had a tutorial in there earlier
[13:25] <Morseman> I wasn't thrilled with the picture quality but then my "other" camera is a Nikon...
[13:26] <griffonbot> Received email: David Akerman "Re: [UKHAS] Buzz Pico Launch"
[13:29] <NigelMoby> Dave ... have u checked ure pico path isn't near airspace or cities? want to keep it at least 15 miles away from both, also heliports.
[13:29] <jonsowman> daveake_: what's the radio on buzz?
[13:30] <griffonbot> Received email: Martin "FW: [UKHAS] BBC Radio 2 this afternoon (Ban on Helium)"
[13:31] <NigelMoby> afternoon jonsowman
[13:31] <jonsowman> hello NigelMoby
[13:32] <NigelMoby> how's joey today?
[13:32] <jonsowman> will carry on with firmware later today
[13:32] <jonsowman> gps polling works though
[13:32] <jonsowman> brb
[13:34] <NigelMoby> oh cool.
[13:35] <Morseman> I think this might work http://www.teliportme.com/view/12303
[13:36] <Hix> ooo Morseman, that would be very cool for a HAB stitch
[13:36] <NigelMoby> meh Android says no :(
[13:37] <Hix> If only I could risk losing my Nikon on a big launch
[13:37] <NigelMoby> dslr?
[13:37] <Hix> NigelMoby, got DolphinHD? Normally pretty good..
[13:37] <Hix> yeah - but heeeeavy
[13:37] <Hix> D2X
[13:37] <Morseman> Not sure that version would work as I have to stand in one place and turn round watching the screen to capture each photo - I had wondered if it would work on a balloon though
[13:37] <NigelMoby> ooo smart
[13:38] <Morseman> This is on my HTC - If I were to do it using D90 I'd have to use a tripod...
[13:39] <Hix> Oh is this something that stitches and uploads itself? I thought you stitched a pano together and this site rendered it
[13:39] <eroomde> cuddykid: air display
[13:39] <eroomde> it's amazing
[13:40] <Hix> yeah - it's very cool
[13:40] <eroomde> i just went againt my pricniples (no app is worth spending more than 99p on) and got it
[13:40] <eroomde> quite amazing
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[13:44] <navrac> are you doing a pico launch on saturday daveake_
[13:44] <Morseman> Here's one of Notts City Centre - stiching not quite perfect though but I like the ghostly effect as people walk into shot http://www.teliportme.com/view/13738
[13:45] <Hix> Gold!! http://goo.gl/NkdxW
[13:45] <daveake_> navrac Yes, should be
[13:46] <navrac> oh good - gives me a chance to test my new aerial/receiver - I presume the winds blowing my way
[13:48] <navrac> rfm22b , max6 - did you see jcoxons power saving stuff last night for the gps - could be a good ling flight
[13:48] <daveake_> Yes, did do. Wasn't planning on doing any power-saving, but I will take a look and maybe add some if I get a bit of time
[13:49] <daveake_> For the prediction I put in 0.5m/s to 5000, then 0.1m/s to 6000. That takes it N to Banbury then E towards Cambridge. But anything could happen!
[13:51] <navrac> I was just doing the same prediction - with slightly more generous figures
[13:51] <navrac> since it seems in the 30g-40g pico range float works then it could be a long trip
[13:53] <navrac> my prediction goes to france, comes round and skirts cornwall then ireland - better get the power saving to work for that though
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[13:53] <NigelMoby> lol nice trip
[13:53] <daveake_> lol nice :)
[13:53] <daveake_> More than 15-16 hours?
[13:53] <NigelMoby> mines off to the welsh mountains
[13:54] <navrac> 14 hours
[13:54] <navrac> http://habhub.org/predict/#!/uuid=9e2172aa296e9210586332ec8988efec87b246ef
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[13:58] <navrac> go on daveake_ give it a go - it would be epic to track - dont forget to put some packing tape over the valve
[13:58] <NigelMoby> yes tape is vital.!
[13:58] <daveake_> Will do :)
[13:59] <daveake_> Interesting you do the prediction with a fast ascent and very slow descent
[13:59] <daveake_> I did mine as 2 separate predictions, one for the ascent and one for the float
[13:59] <navrac> meanwhile I'm going to try to increase the height of my aerial by 2m
[14:00] <daveake_> Well I got my cylinder order in before the ban :p
[14:00] <NigelMoby> lol
[14:00] <navrac> well i overfilled mine so it went up at 2m/s (well 1.5) and it didnt deflate except at night where it just settled down at 5km so i see no reason your wont do the same
[14:00] <daveake_> yep
[14:01] <daveake_> This tracker has the Sarantel antenna, and 3 AAAs, so I'll use 2 foil balloons
[14:01] <navrac> you get a double prize if it flies round twice. I'm just going to lower the descent rate further
[14:01] <daveake_> Plus, of course, the Buzz Balloon :)
[14:01] <daveake_> landing back in the UK after a flight like that would be awesome
[14:02] <daveake_> Question is, do I follow in the chase car, or just wait for it to come back? :p
[14:02] <NigelMoby> Dave how wide is that buzz balloon?
[14:02] <daveake_> Hold on ...
[14:03] <NigelMoby> just thinking it could clip and tear 1 of the others, the pic of it looked like it had fairly thick seams.
[14:04] <daveake_> 1.2m
[14:04] <NigelMoby> hmm that and 2 qualatex foils?
[14:04] <daveake_> It won't be adding to the lift. I'll have a look later and see if it's OK to use (e.g. within 2m all directions
[14:05] <NigelMoby> yeah I think its gonna put u over the 2m
[14:05] <daveake_> I was thinking of Buzz above the other 2
[14:05] <daveake_> Well if so I'll remove him
[14:06] <NigelMoby> can do, with the other 2 .. tie them together close to the valve, stops them flapping and spreading about
[14:06] <daveake_> Another option might be 1 36" + Buzz
[14:07] <daveake_> That's what I was thinking - 2 round ones close together, Buzz above filled to provide very little lift
[14:07] <NigelMoby> uve got the weight for 1... might just get away with it
[14:07] <daveake_> Might do. I just want to avoid having Buzz overfilled to get that lift, then have a short flight because he bursts early
[14:08] <NigelMoby> yup, that'd be a shame :( be great to see a buzz float!
[14:08] <daveake_> :)
[14:09] <Hix> bugger - forgot R2 - tuned in at 13:30 but it was Anne Widdecombe so dropped it and never remembered to check again - what was the story?
[14:09] <Hix> or was it just a rehash of old news
[14:09] <NigelMoby> I'm gonna catch it on iPlayer
[14:11] <daveake_> Helium running out ... USA making it too cheap ... needed for scanners etc .... found a party shop owner who has decided to stop selling it ... finally there was a guiy called in from an international balloon convention in the USA who said "we only use the crap recycled stuff anyway"
[14:11] <daveake_> Also mentioned NASA using loads of it
[14:12] <Hix> it's not on oplay again apparently
[14:12] <Hix> "we only use the crap recycled stuff anyway" quality :D
[14:12] <NigelMoby> lol
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[14:19] <daveake_> He may have used slightly different words :)
[14:21] <Hix> ahh thought "" were real
[14:22] <Hix> why is the predictor showing the burst so soon on such a log flight
[14:22] <Hix> is that a product of fiddling rates
[14:24] <daveake_> yes it's set up as short ascent and loooooong descent
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[14:28] <daveake_> navrac Having taken as look at the power-saving page that jcoxon posted, that looks too easy :-) so I'll add it in today
[14:43] <griffonbot> Received email: Will Duckworth "Re: FW: [UKHAS] BBC Radio 2 this afternoon (Ban on Helium)"
[14:44] <Laurenceb> wut
[14:44] <Laurenceb> ban on helium
[14:44] <Laurenceb> BAN THIS EVIL FILTHY GAS
[14:44] Action: Laurenceb writes into the daily mail
[14:45] <daveake_> lol
[14:45] <Hix> :D I'm usre they will be onto it
[14:46] <Hix> Party balloons kill thousands needlessly | Selfish parents cause thousands to die because they cant get scans
[14:46] <daveake_> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1305386/Earths-helium-reserves-run-25-years.html#comments
[14:46] <daveake_> Old article
[14:46] <daveake_> BSo they just need to rehash that one
[14:47] <daveake_> "Why not put hydrogen in toy balloons? Not only is it cheap and plentiful but it is lighter than helium."
[14:47] <daveake_> LOL
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[14:48] <NigelMoby> loooool
[14:48] <daveake_> Love the comment at the top ... "Why on earth is such a valuable and limited resource being used in party balloons? Hydrogen is perfectly good for those, and it's only the Health and Safety lot who have insisted we use helium. A hydrogen balloon might be inflammable but burns up quickly with quite a low temperature and as long as kept outside present little danger. Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1305386/Earths-helium-re
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[14:49] <daveake_> Next we'll have "Hydrogen balloon seriously maims toddler at birthday party. Ban it!"
[14:49] <Hix> oh so you can make it from trituim - cool - loads more helium and lots of glowing shit its a win win ;p
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[14:49] <Laurenceb> its actually not very dangerous
[14:50] <Laurenceb> small bang from a balloon
[14:50] <Laurenceb> i one ingited a wheely bin liner with hydrogen+oxygen mix
[14:50] <daveake_> More of a pop with flying burning latex
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[14:50] <gonzo_> it used to be fun to fill party balloons with oxy-acetty mix and wait for someone to pop it with a cigerette
[14:50] <Laurenceb> big bang
[14:50] <Laurenceb> but nothing crazy
[14:51] <Hix> my mate used to do oxy-acetalyne marigold gloves - they made a bit of a bang :)
[14:51] <gonzo_> marigolds are fun when put on an exhause with a hose clip
[14:52] <gonzo_> t
[14:52] <pjm> lol
[14:52] <gonzo_> dave, you have an prrrox release time for buzz-reborn?
[14:53] <daveake_> 10ISH
[14:53] <griffonbot> Received email: Martin "RE: FW: [UKHAS] BBC Radio 2 this afternoon (Ban on Helium)"
[14:53] <daveake_> F1 has banned helium in wheel guns. Wonder how much that will save :)
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[14:53] <gonzo_> rgr ta. Just letting some of the people down here know. See if I can get them interesed
[14:54] <daveake_> cheers
[14:54] <daveake_> It could be a short or very long flight
[14:58] <daveake_> So long as it gives you lot something to do on Saturday, and me some practice with my new chase car setup, I'll be happy. Anything more is a bonus
[14:58] <Hix> Nitrogen is used a.t.m its primarily for saving pressure changes in heat cycles. Also it's dried to remove as much h2o as possible
[14:59] <Hix> to maintain tyre characteristics
[15:04] <Hix> http://goo.gl/m9Oth Antex 0.12mm conical solder tip
[15:05] <gonzo_> I may not be up for tracking till after 12, but wuill see
[15:08] <pjm> i can try rx'ing it
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[16:06] <daveake_> navrac I've put the power-saving in. Total current for the tracker, after a lock, is now 45mA with blips to about 75mA
[16:07] <daveake_> Should be enough for this flight :)
[16:12] <gonzo_> rgr pjm, you should have a better path than me to the north.
[16:14] <pjm> when is it going up and what freq?
[16:18] <daveake_> Saturday am 434.2
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[16:28] <Laurenceb> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Ds8bEdkJEi8
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[16:34] <edmoore> Small high def video camera which
[16:34] <edmoore> Logs to sd card
[16:34] <UpuWork> cheap ?
[16:35] <edmoore> Specifically yes. Of the order of £50 if poss
[16:35] <edmoore> Loads of options if you go to £150
[16:35] <UpuWork> AEE-MDS90
[16:35] <UpuWork> err
[16:35] <UpuWork> let me check that
[16:36] <UpuWork> AEE MD80
[16:37] <UpuWork> thats the older one
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[16:39] <UpuWork> AEE-MD91
[16:39] <UpuWork> thats it
[16:39] <UpuWork> http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_nkw=AEE-MD91&_sacat=0&_odkw=AEE+HD50&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313
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[16:39] <UpuWork> my burst video and splash down were done on it
[16:39] <edmoore> Thanks hive mind
[16:39] <UpuWork> not perfect
[16:39] <ok2xdg> hello
[16:40] <UpuWork> but takes an 8Gb card and if you rig some AAA's in the bottom > 8Hours
[16:40] <UpuWork> hi tehre ok2xdg
[16:40] <edmoore> Can you link to your burst and splash video?
[16:40] <UpuWork> yup 1 sec
[16:41] <ok2xdg> HI Upuwork
[16:41] <UpuWork> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8cOzkUeso4&list=UUGkq3Q2JQhN_ChjcPPwAW3A&index=21&feature=plcp
[16:41] <UpuWork> at the point of burst
[16:41] <UpuWork> the camera padding gets out of view, cock up on install
[16:42] <UpuWork> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcbykWjsQrI&list=UUGkq3Q2JQhN_ChjcPPwAW3A&index=22&feature=plcp
[16:42] <UpuWork> and splash down
[16:42] <UpuWork> note camera still works so they are quirte hardy
[16:43] <UpuWork> burst is ~ 1:30
[16:43] <daveake_> edmoore I use the Kodak Zx1. HD, logs to SD card (up to 32GB); 4GB/hour roughly, ebay circa £25
[16:43] <Hix> what's with the audio UpuWork ?
[16:44] <UpuWork> lack of air I think causes some odd noises, the beep you can here every 10 secs is the Canon A560 taking pics
[16:44] <UpuWork> 2:36 you can see the remains of the balloon
[16:44] <ok2xdg> nice camera is GoPro Here2
[16:44] <ok2xdg> Hero2
[16:45] <daveake_> On one of my videos, during the initial descent, at one point it really sounds like someone yells "aarrghh!"
[16:45] <UpuWork> ah thats better by a mile but make sure you get it back :)
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[16:45] <UpuWork> as you can see I managed to land mine in the sea
[16:47] <Hix> eroomde, Kodak on amazon http://goo.gl/eQCTU
[16:52] <Hix> jaysus I know Greece is screwed but.... http://goo.gl/LS2AA
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[16:58] <ok2xdg> someone from Greece needs money from you :)
[16:58] <cuddykid> that someone is probably the Greek Gov :D
[16:58] <cuddykid> their new recession busting policy
[16:59] <ok2xdg> don't worry about me, I'm just from CZ
[16:59] <NigeyS> AEM Water/ Methanol Injection Kit 1gal Tank- PN 30-3000
[16:59] <NigeyS> £14,600.00
[17:01] <eroomde> thanks chapses
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[17:53] <eroomde> this afternoon is a win. there's no obvious place to put as time-zero when doing rocket firing tests, so we monitor the current of the solendoid that puts fuel into the combustion chamber. the current increases (coil = inductor) then starts to decrease as the solendoid starts to move (back-emf) then increases again once it's fully moved. so we make t0 the point where the current starts to drop off again. We've been finding this point by eye so far, whi
[17:53] <eroomde> http://i.imgur.com/iAeIj.jpg
[17:53] <eroomde> until just now! the green line is where my algorithm thinks the start is
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[17:54] <eroomde> so now the data processing after a fire can hopefully be completely automated
[17:55] <eroomde> and on that note, it's time for a beer
[17:55] <NigeyS> woosh that went right over my head lol
[17:55] <eroomde> basically, made an algorithm that found that hump in the curve
[17:56] <eroomde> which we previously did by eye
[17:56] <NigeyS> ahhh well thats neat, usin gmatlab i see.. !
[17:56] <NigeyS> using* spelling fail today :/
[17:57] <eroomde> it added several minutes of data processing after each test. we could hopefully now get it down to some scripts which should do everything in about 5s
[17:57] <eroomde> this is what i'd like
[17:57] <eroomde> yeah i like octave
[17:57] <eroomde> i really like python too
[17:57] <eroomde> but octave just lets you write the maths down
[17:57] <eroomde> numpy just gets annoying with it's huge namespaces to get to every function
[17:58] <NigeyS> hah got to love numpy!
[17:58] <eroomde> for production code i'd translate it
[17:58] <eroomde> it's pretty easy to translate from octave
[17:58] <NigeyS> ah right
[17:59] <NigeyS> right coffee! before the super bright leds on swift blind me further!
[17:59] <russss> numpy only does that because it's trying to emulate matlab (not entirely sure why)
[18:00] <eroomde> but for raw prototyping i prefer octave as there's less of a barrier between idea and testing
[18:01] <eroomde> yes i do wish it wouldn't
[18:02] <eroomde> in octave i can design a filter like this: [b,a] = butter(6,2000,500)
[18:02] <eroomde> arguments are order, sample freq, cutoff freq
[18:02] <eroomde> in numpy it's sort of: [b,a] = signals.sigproc.filters.filterdesign.butterworth(arguements)
[18:02] <eroomde> very annoying
[18:03] <NigeyS> eugh talk about longhand!
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[18:08] <zyp> eroomde, because import * from signals.sigproc.filters.filterdesign would be too hard
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[18:28] <eroomde> zyp: yes exactly
[18:29] <eroomde> it is annoying when you think 'hrm, what if i quickly try filtering this'
[18:30] <eroomde> or say you want to have a look at some vector's spectrum quickly. you can't just do 'fft(x)', you have a similar ringamarole and it's non obvious in numpy what the namespace chain for ffts is anyway
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[18:33] <eroomde> it's something like numpy.fft.fft({args}) and to me and my memory that seems non obviois so i try numpy.fft(args) and take a few seconds to remember why it's fallen over
[18:33] <eroomde> little things like that
[18:33] <eroomde> but you did fullfill the bet that for anything said on this channel, you will jump in with something sarky and frustrated
[18:33] <eroomde> so well done for that
[18:35] <daveake_> On a slightly, ok much, less technical note :-), car pc ready for chasing* the pico on Saturday - http://imgur.com/a/kQiqG
[18:35] <daveake_> * if it floats I'll give up and track from home
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[18:44] <NigeyS> daveake_
[18:44] <NigeyS> http://nigey.co.uk/predict/
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[18:44] <NigeyS> next thursday looks good to send mine to you .. lol
[18:45] <daveake_> It does? I'm not close to any of those points ...
[18:45] <navrac> nice incar system there
[18:45] <eroomde> yeah
[18:45] <daveake_> ta. I drove round the local lanes to make sure the compass heading stayed pointing to the payload (at home)
[18:45] <eroomde> looks sweet
[18:46] <NigeyS> daveake_, thought you were down near yeovil ?
[18:46] <daveake_> I really wanted something permanent enough that I can put an aerial on the roof, jump in the car and set off with the minimum of fuss
[18:47] <daveake_> NigeyS Berkshire
[18:47] <eroomde> have you got a dedicated radio for it?
[18:47] <NigeyS> oh, hmph
[18:47] <daveake_> eroomde Yes, a Yupiteru currently
[18:48] <daveake_> I've run the audio and power cables to where that will sit
[18:48] <daveake_> Need ti tidy up the woring (under carpets etc
[18:49] <daveake_> OK, now I'm dyslexic on single characters 4 words apart ...
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[18:52] <daveake_> brb -- food
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[20:31] <ajwillink> Hi all
[20:31] <ajwillink> was wondering if anyone knows a cheap place to get helium
[20:33] <navrac> http://www.click4balloons.co.uk
[20:33] <daveake> Cheapest I've found is http://balloonhelium.co.uk/main/pricing
[20:33] <ajwillink> oh cool,thanks dave
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[20:33] <navrac> that was the ohne i was trying to remember
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[20:34] <daveake> navrac I've got the D50 coming tomorrow
[20:34] <daveake> Paid about £2 extra for guaranteed next-day, as I'm hoping to fly on Saturday
[20:35] <navrac> unbelievably light
[20:35] <ajwillink> I used to do a lot of pro photography
[20:35] <ajwillink> d50 is great
[20:35] <ajwillink> good choice
[20:35] <navrac> d50 cylinder
[20:35] <ajwillink> ah
[20:35] <ajwillink> heheh
[20:35] <ajwillink> fair enough
[20:35] <navrac> i reckon its thinner than a tin can
[20:35] <daveake> It's just for a pico launch. Obviously too small for a Latex launch!
[20:36] <ajwillink> how much did that cost?
[20:36] <daveake> I was wondering what use helium was in photography ... :)
[20:36] <daveake> Anyway I'm a Canon man :p
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[20:37] <navrac> £32 -does 4 pico balloons
[20:37] <ajwillink> I am a canon man myself
[20:37] <ajwillink> 5d mark 2
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[20:37] <ajwillink> fashion weeks and studio work
[20:37] <daveake> <jealous>
[20:37] <ajwillink> mostly
[20:38] <daveake> Not done either - more landscapes me
[20:38] <ajwillink> but reconsidered sending that up on my first balloon
[20:38] <daveake> :)
[20:38] <ajwillink> got a blog with your work?
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[20:39] <daveake> "work"? :p http://www.flickr.com/photos/daveake Try the USA 2010 set
[20:39] <ajwillink> AWESOME
[20:39] <daveake> ta :)
[20:40] <daveake> That reminds me I have some uploading to do
[20:40] <ajwillink> do you shoot them in raw?
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[20:40] <daveake> Those were
[20:40] <daveake> Some gentle HDR too there
[20:41] <ajwillink> what I figured
[20:41] <ajwillink> light is pretty balanced
[20:41] <ajwillink> good stuff
[20:41] <ajwillink> my work is mostly studio and fashion,
[20:41] <daveake> I was doing a 365 last year but stopped when I got ill for over a week
[20:42] <ajwillink> ah
[20:42] <daveake> Took a lot of time
[20:42] <ajwillink> can imagine
[20:43] <ajwillink> so looks like its going to be £40 for helium
[20:43] <ajwillink> ordered the balloon and parachute yesterday
[20:43] <Laurenceb_> aha
[20:43] <ajwillink> should be coming soon
[20:43] <Laurenceb_> found my ukhas meetup photos
[20:43] <Laurenceb_> http://lolpics.se/pics/28595.jpg
[20:43] <andrew_apex> ajwillink: what balloon?
[20:43] <ajwillink> 300
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[20:43] <ajwillink> its my first
[20:43] <ajwillink> so thought i would play safe
[20:43] <andrew_apex> :) sounds good!
[20:44] <daveake> I used blipfoto for the 365. e.g. http://www.blipfoto.com/entry/1049788
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[20:44] <ajwillink> Am still thinking iPhone/ android for gps
[20:44] <ajwillink> it will conk out at 60k feet, but should kick back on return
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[20:48] <signaleleven> sorry for the in&out
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[20:50] <ajwillink> Apparently Google's nexus work up to 60kfeet
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[20:57] <ajwillink> Has anyone used hydrogen?
[20:57] <griffonbot> @PBHVI: Friday's update http://t.co/VGdDZyew 100 hours, 4400 miles, PBH-18 is GO for launch 2300 EST 3/23/2012 #PBHVI #ARHAB #UKHAS [http://twitter.com/PBHVI/status/182933935129505792]
[20:57] <navrac> people have - but helium is mainly used as its safer
[20:58] <ajwillink> I know :) I used to make the explosive mix in school
[20:58] <x-f> they use UKHAS hashtag now?
[20:58] <ajwillink> of hydrogen,
[20:58] <ajwillink> but its cheaper
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[21:03] <pnorman> What stops working at 60k feet? The entire phone, or the GPS?
[21:03] <andrew_apex> pnorman: the GPS
[21:04] <ajwillink> i think the phone
[21:04] <ajwillink> gps
[21:05] <ajwillink> then when it gets back down, starts transmitting again
[21:05] <ajwillink> thats the story,
[21:05] <ajwillink> seems other people have had the same thing
[21:05] <andrew_apex> ajwillink: if it's using the cellular network, there won't be any signal over about 2k meters
[21:05] <ajwillink> GPRS
[21:06] <ajwillink> I guess
[21:07] <ajwillink> And was going to use the canon a800 since it takes AA batteries
[21:07] <ajwillink> which can handle the cold
[21:08] <ajwillink> @Dave, any thoughts on when your going to launch on the weekend? I was given tickets to Chelsea game and have to go for work now.
[21:10] <navrac> he said about 10am IIRC
[21:10] <ajwillink> ah cool, may just still be able to track it on my phone.
[21:10] <ajwillink> thanks navrac
[21:11] <daveake> You're supporting Chelsea or Spurs?
[21:11] <ajwillink> Ummm, Was thinking Chelsea
[21:12] <daveake> Oh. I'd better stop talking to you then :)
[21:12] <ajwillink> But am going on a business trip mostly. I am more F1
[21:12] <ajwillink> fan
[21:12] <daveake> :)
[21:12] <ajwillink> so then spurs it is
[21:12] <daveake> good call
[21:12] <ajwillink> Better learn their song
[21:12] <ajwillink> otherwise will look like a right idiot
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[21:13] <navrac> http://www.ave-it.net/tottenham%20chants.htm
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[21:15] <navrac> inspired lyrics
[21:15] <ajwillink> ok got it
[21:15] <ajwillink> thanks, :P
[21:16] <navrac> check youtube for the tunes :-)
[21:16] <navrac> or get dave to hum it ti you
[21:16] <ajwillink> Hahaha, was sort of thinking that just shouting out as loud as possible would be ok
[21:16] <daveake> lol
[21:16] <ajwillink> will put on my best singing voice
[21:16] <ajwillink> any particular key its sung in?
[21:17] <navrac> flat
[21:17] <ajwillink> B flat
[21:17] <ajwillink> (beer)
[21:17] <navrac> just flat generally
[21:17] <fsphil> "Go... team!"
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[21:17] <navrac> I'm sticking with F1
[21:17] <ajwillink> "I said "fuck off, bollocks you're a c*nt"" - inspired
[21:17] Action: fsphil would stand out at a football match
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[21:18] <ajwillink> I am sticking with f1 as well usually
[21:18] <ajwillink> never been to a Football match
[21:18] <Elmar_PD3EM> evening all!
[21:18] <ajwillink> apparently this one is a big deal on sat
[21:19] <jonsowman> mind your language :)
[21:19] <navrac> yep theyre going to try to kick a rubber thing into a net
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[21:19] <ajwillink> any particular net or just a random one?
[21:19] <ajwillink> ;)
[21:19] <navrac> don't know - all a bit beyond my attention span
[21:20] <ajwillink> lol
[21:21] <ajwillink> F1 this weekend, that will be a blast
[21:21] <navrac> oh daveake - james mentioned last night if you call the powersave before its got a lock it doesnt powersave and reboots the gps
[21:21] <ajwillink> last race was sensational
[21:21] <navrac> it was good
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[21:22] <navrac> dont know if im going to stay up for fp1 though
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[21:40] <NigeyS> hey ed
[21:46] <daveake> navrac - Yeah, I saw that bit. I send the power save after lock.
[21:47] <navrac> just wanted to make sure so i get anice long time to track :-)
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[21:48] <daveake> :)
[21:52] <navrac> well the funcube is behaving well and so is the new aerial so im happy
[21:52] <navrac> apart from i think that the coax mighbt have faller out the connector on the aerial end
[21:53] <navrac> LMR400 is a bit bigger than RG213 so it was a bit of a bodge
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[21:54] <daveake> I bought some RG213-specific plugs
[21:55] <daveake> It would have been a lot easier if they'd come with instructions!
[21:55] <navrac> so did i - that was the problem but the cable wasnt..
[21:56] <daveake> Cut lengths need to be fairly accurate to get those things to work
[21:56] <navrac> the inner core on the cable is >1mm and the hole in the pin wasnt big enough so much soldering and filing going on
[21:57] <daveake> :)
[21:58] <navrac> the funcube was picking up 70cm repeaters clearly from about 80 miles away that the old receiver didnt know was there
[21:59] <fsphil> you're fortunate
[21:59] <fsphil> mine is quite sensitive on a small antenna but on the colinear it's deaf
[22:00] <joph> have you seen the sdr radio on hackaday made out of a dvb-t/dab stick?
[22:01] <fsphil> gonna try that :)
[22:01] <fsphil> I've been wondering why the funcube dongle didn't implement a higher speed mode like that
[22:01] <joph> i tried it with my "MSI digivox mini II v3.0", it has the realtek chipset but it hasn't worked for my in a virtual machine
[22:02] <joph> i'll try it this weekend on my laptop
[22:02] <joph> *my=me
[22:03] <joph> good night
[22:03] <navrac> I live in a rural area so no flattening - however im buying some saw filters for it
[22:03] <navrac> good night - have you got the hackday link?
[22:04] <joph> http://sdr.osmocom.org/trac/wiki/rtl-sdr http://hackaday.com/2012/03/20/software-defined-radio-from-a-usb-tv-capture-card/#comment-608394
[22:05] <pjm> lol btw dont think that gnuradio which is needed to support that cheap USB stick is easy to compile!
[22:05] <joph> it's nearly the same thing as the funcube dongle ;)
[22:07] <navrac> I thik i might wait till its a bit more evolved
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[22:08] <Bob_G8NSV> hi all
[22:09] <pjm> well if gnuradio is involved, you'll be waiting a long time!
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[22:12] <BrainDamage> pjm: I compiled it yesterday, no issues whatsoever
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[22:12] <pjm> hmm
[22:12] <BrainDamage> altough I used a git version
[22:12] <pjm> ditto here
[22:12] <pjm> ubuntu 10 or greater?
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[22:14] <BrainDamage> arch
[22:17] <Morseman> Don't believe the rubbish about not being hardware based... Flex Radio have based a business on selling more and more hardware updates after selling the "update on software only" idea
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[22:17] <pjm> BrainDamage ah yeah i'm using slackware which i thing arch was based on
[22:17] <pjm> but its such a PITA re the deps, i've given up
[22:18] <pjm> so it'll be a cheap dvb-tv adapter
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[22:23] <Lunar_Lander> hello everyone
[22:23] <Lunar_Lander> good evening
[22:23] <Bob_G8NSV> got my new funcube dongle today!
[22:24] <fsphil> yay!
[22:24] <fsphil> working well?
[22:24] <Bob_G8NSV> seems to be, a bit of pager noise round here tho
[22:25] <Bob_G8NSV> mind you not on 434 as i have a cavity filter on the input!!
[22:25] <Bob_G8NSV> vhf bad tho
[22:26] <Bob_G8NSV> 434.074 has real bad local chirping devices, wireless alarm stuff maybe?
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[22:28] <fsphil> very likely
[22:28] <fsphil> it's the same here
[22:28] <fsphil> also with the pagers
[22:29] <Bob_G8NSV> i have some helical filters off of old VHF airband sets, might do for 137 satt band
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[22:30] <Bob_G8NSV> theres an rf amp in them as well
[22:30] <Bob_G8NSV> along with the mixer and front end!!
[22:30] <Bob_G8NSV> its easy to solder an output after the pre-amp
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[22:43] <BrainDamage> pjm: arch is based off gentoo
[22:44] <BrainDamage> and all it tool me was yaourt gnuradio-git
[22:44] <BrainDamage> took*
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[22:45] <pjm> ah yeah its based on the ideas of slackware, not directly on it
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[22:46] <Lunar_Lander> got a question
[22:46] <Lunar_Lander> sparkfun has the Arduino Pro Micro 3.3V
[22:46] <Lunar_Lander> but it has USB
[22:46] <Lunar_Lander> but I don't know why, as USB is 5V
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[23:05] <Lunar_Lander> nevermind
[23:05] <Lunar_Lander> found out why
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[23:09] <navrac> Bob_G8NSV got my funcube yesterday
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[00:00] --- Fri Mar 23 2012