highaltitude.log.20120321

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[01:05] <NigeyS> fuuuuuu eagle, illegal operation :@
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[01:15] <Lunar_Lander> why NigeyS
[01:15] <NigeyS> it crashed
[01:15] <Lunar_Lander> oh :(
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[01:30] <Lunar_Lander> what did you try to do?
[01:32] <NigeyS> added a library
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[01:35] <Lunar_Lander> ah
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[02:01] <Lunar_Lander> hello heathkid|2
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[04:25] <Randomskk> oh ugggh. hours and hours of debugging and this is the sodding problem
[04:25] <Randomskk> https://randomskk.net/u/tmp102.jpg
[04:25] <Randomskk> for size reference those passives are 0402
[04:26] <SpeedEvil> What was this?
[04:26] <Randomskk> and that PCB pad is 0.3mm by 0.4mm
[04:26] <Randomskk> i²c temperature sensor
[04:26] <Randomskk> and specifically
[04:27] <Randomskk> the SDA pin is not actually soldered
[04:29] <BrainDamage> btw, this might interest someone here: http://www.goodluckbuy.com/10dof-l3g4200dadxl345hmc5883lbmp085-nine-axis-imu-module.html ( I did not check yet the sensor quality & specs )
[04:31] <SpeedEvil> Ah
[04:33] <Randomskk> refresh for a better pic actually
[04:33] <Randomskk> sigh
[04:35] <Randomskk> at least that explains why it wasn't working
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[05:17] <zu_munir> Hallo all...
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[05:47] <schofieldau> Darkside: arduino and FTDI arrived today :D
[05:47] <Darkside> cool
[05:47] <Darkside> get programming
[05:47] <Darkside> you'll be wanting a gps soon i bet
[05:49] <schofieldau> yup
[05:49] <schofieldau> need a breadboard too
[05:49] <schofieldau> http://www.jaycar.com.au/ShowLargephoto.asp?id=2357&PRODNAME=Mini%20Breadboard%20-%20300%20holes&IMAGE=
[05:50] <schofieldau> actually
[05:50] <schofieldau> scratch that
[05:50] <schofieldau> http://www.altronics.com.au/index.asp?area=item&id=P1002 that's cheaper and bigger
[05:50] <schofieldau> I won't need any bigger than that, right?
[05:52] <Darkside> not for testing
[05:52] <Darkside> but you won't be flying thart
[05:53] <schofieldau> yeah I know
[05:53] <schofieldau> veraboard for flight
[05:55] <Darkside> yup
[05:56] <schofieldau> http://www.instructables.com/id/Bread-Board-from-IDE-Cables/ haha this is very much my style
[05:57] <Darkside> yeah but don't do it...
[05:58] <schofieldau> yup for $7 I think I'll just go the breadboard :P
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[07:06] <Upu> morning
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[07:06] <daveake> morning
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[07:08] <Darkside> evening
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[07:12] <Upu> Anyone from Porject Sharp online ?
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[07:37] <eroomde> not me
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[07:56] <fsphil> just project blurry here
[08:10] <daveake> project yawning
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[09:13] <NigelMoby> yawwwwwwwn
[09:22] <gonzo_> stop that. Yawns are contgious
[09:23] <NigelMoby> lol woops, morning dude.
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[09:26] <Hix> ping kokey
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[09:32] <ajwillink> hi
[09:32] <ajwillink> quick question, anyone used an android
[09:32] <ajwillink> for tracking?
[09:32] <ajwillink> wondering how the batteries do?
[09:32] <daveake> In a payload, or in the chase car?
[09:33] <ajwillink> in the payload
[09:33] <daveake> Google did it themselves in the payload. They have some videos on YT.
[09:33] <ajwillink> oh cool
[09:33] <ajwillink> thanks, will check them out
[09:34] <daveake> I suggest lots of insulation to keep the batteries warm
[09:34] <NigelMoby> htm its lipo ... it'll freeze
[09:34] <NigelMoby> hmm*
[09:34] <ajwillink> any particular insulation?
[09:34] <daveake> foam polystyrene
[09:34] <NigelMoby> something to keep it above -10
[09:34] <ajwillink> what about rock wool?
[09:35] <daveake> I've not done it myself, partly because I don't trust the batteries but mainly because I wouldn't want to lose an Android phone
[09:35] <daveake> You want something lightweight as well as highly insulative (is that a word?)
[09:35] <ajwillink> hehe,
[09:35] <ajwillink> makes sense as a word
[09:35] <daveake> Maybe add a heat source
[09:35] <Hix> http://goo.gl/R4pT5
[09:35] <Hix> CUSF may be able to help on android
[09:36] <ajwillink> checking it now
[09:36] <ajwillink> pretty crazy coming down
[09:36] <ajwillink> 150 mph?
[09:36] <daveake> Hiz there's a better video where a little Android robot toy gets launched from the payload, sans parachute, by a flapping chute line
[09:36] <ajwillink> checked that one just now
[09:36] <daveake> One of mine hit 260
[09:37] <ajwillink> 260, jeez
[09:37] <ajwillink> are you launching one soon?
[09:37] <daveake> It was quite high up in thin air at the time
[09:37] <daveake> Hoping to on Saturday
[09:37] <NigelMoby> yeah Dave launched a flying brick! lol
[09:37] <Hix> :D
[09:37] <ajwillink> I just ordered the parachute, still getting the basics together
[09:37] <daveake> A ball
[09:37] <ajwillink> heheheheheheeh
[09:37] <NigelMoby> u in UK ajw?
[09:37] <ajwillink> uk
[09:38] <ajwillink> east gatwick area
[09:38] <ajwillink> rather east grinstead
[09:38] <NigelMoby> oh cool
[09:38] <ajwillink> Just putting the basics together at the moment
[09:39] <ajwillink> Would love to see someone else do it first though
[09:39] <fsphil> I recommend that
[09:39] <daveake> Well there may be 2/3 flights this weekend. Depends on predictions
[09:39] <ajwillink> oh cool
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[09:39] <ajwillink> from where?
[09:40] <Hix> ajwillink, you got a scanner capable of AM SSB?
[09:40] <daveake> Mine is planned for a launch in Berks, and there's one near Evesham
[09:40] <ajwillink> no scanner, am planning on just using android for gps
[09:40] <ajwillink> Berkshire isn't far from me
[09:41] <ajwillink> only a couple of hours drive
[09:41] <Hix> I was thinking of for these launches coming up. You can trackthe m on www.spacenear.us/tracker
[09:41] <daveake> Problem with using GSM/GPS is first that you won't know where it is till it lands, and second that if it lands outside GSM coverage it's lost.
[09:41] <ajwillink> awesome site,
[09:41] <Hix> Won't the android GPS pack up after ~18Km?
[09:42] <Hix> and what dave said
[09:42] <ajwillink> according to google not
[09:42] <daveake> The GSM side will pack up way before that
[09:42] <ajwillink> just checking their android that was sent up
[09:42] <ajwillink> looks good
[09:42] <Hix> GSM ~2Km limit
[09:42] <Hix> it'll log but not tx
[09:42] <ajwillink> Nexus runs at -50
[09:43] <Hix> runs or stored
[09:43] <ajwillink> awesome
[09:43] <ajwillink> runs
[09:43] <Darkside> yeah buyt again
[09:43] <ajwillink> http://googlemobile.blogspot.co.uk/2010/12/android-in-spaaaace.html
[09:43] <Darkside> gps will conk out
[09:43] <Darkside> and gsm will screw up
[09:43] <ajwillink> you think?
[09:44] <ajwillink> and if it's well insulated
[09:44] <Darkside> hmm, apparently the gps in teh nexus s doesnt have the limit
[09:44] <ajwillink> am not using the camera part
[09:44] <Darkside> temp isnt the problem
[09:44] <ajwillink> only tracking
[09:44] <daveake> GSM is fine up to around 2km, maybe higher if you're lucky, but reckon on 2km
[09:44] <Darkside> ire more reliable data transfer
[09:44] <Darkside> theres a good reason we all use other radio systems
[09:44] <ajwillink> Hmm, more expensive no?
[09:44] <Darkside> yes, but worth it
[09:45] <Darkside> its either you pay the money, or you have a good chance of losing your payload
[09:45] <UpuWork> well if you can borrow a reciever I'd say cheaper
[09:45] <ajwillink> really?
[09:45] <Darkside> ajwillink: what country
[09:45] <UpuWork> £50 for a tracker
[09:45] <ajwillink> UK
[09:45] <ajwillink> near gatwick
[09:45] <Darkside> ok uk has better phone reception than most
[09:45] <UpuWork> you won't be launching from there :)
[09:45] <Hix> :D
[09:45] <daveake> re gatwick - you may need to launch from somewhere else :)
[09:45] <Darkside> so you will probably get lucky when it lands
[09:45] <ajwillink> Some videos of people about doing it with phones
[09:45] <Hix> Notams pretty scarce ther i reckon
[09:46] <Darkside> ajwillink: yeah, and the ones that have videos are the lucky ones that got their payload back
[09:46] <Darkside> heaps of people launch gsm trackers and loose contact with them shortly after launch
[09:46] <fsphil> you'd get some amount of calls if you did manage it :)
[09:46] <UpuWork> ajwillink take the time just to investigate making a radio tracker you can make one with a £20 arduino £10 NTX2 module and £20 of GPS board
[09:46] <Hix> or had other trackers fitted al la google blog
[09:46] <mfa298> I'd have thought using the 70cm radio the tx is cheaper but the rx is more expensive, for a phone the tx is cheaper but rx everyone already has. So long term if you lose some payloads the 70cms rtty is probably cheaper.
[09:47] <ajwillink> hmmm
[09:47] <ajwillink> interesting,
[09:47] <Hix> fsphil, :D
[09:47] <ajwillink> thanks guys, will certainly check that out
[09:47] <daveake> Other thing with the receiver - the cost is split over however many flights you do, plus if you ever do get bored with the hobby you can put the receiver back on ebay and sell it for what you paid. These things hold their value VERY well
[09:47] <ajwillink> it's pretty low risk in terms of money
[09:47] <ajwillink> have an old android available, and camera
[09:47] <ajwillink> just balloon and parachute
[09:48] <Hix> Make sure to get a NOTAM for the launch though ajwillink
[09:48] <daveake> Yeah, but you'll want it back for the photos
[09:48] <ajwillink> I have been reading into those
[09:48] <ajwillink> certainly will have to apply
[09:48] <ajwillink> but what if you change the launch date?
[09:48] <gonzo_> or rope in some local hams.
[09:48] <NigelMoby> u reapply.
[09:48] <ajwillink> Hehe, for sure will want it back for the photos
[09:48] <fsphil> or apply for a range of dates
[09:48] <daveake> Another option is that you build your payload with Android, then tag along on a flight with someone else. i.e. 2 payloads under the same balloon
[09:48] <NigelMoby> do not launch without 1 especially near Gatwick.
[09:49] <ajwillink> Wouldn't launch near gatwick, was thinking in devon somewhere, or france
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[09:49] <Hix> france would be pretty cool for floating
[09:50] <daveake> for the date, I put in several dates and the CAA issue for the first day or weekend. Then on the Monday I send an email saying if I launched or not, and if not they issue another notam for the next date or weekend
[09:50] <ajwillink> @Daveake, if you launch this weekend, any chance of letting me know? would love to drop by and say hello
[09:50] <Hix> if you roped in the french and german trackers
[09:50] <gonzo_> btw, anyone have any experience of launching in controled airspace. I've not had much luck getting advice from the CAA onnthis
[09:50] <andrew_apex> daveake: what frequency would you be on if you launch?
[09:50] <daveake> ajwillink sure, you on the mailing list?
[09:50] <daveake> andrew_apex - all of them :D
[09:51] <ajwillink> don't think so,
[09:51] <ajwillink> how do I join?
[09:51] <ajwillink> could I send you my mail id?
[09:51] <andrew_apex> :P SHARP are hoping to launch on two of the days out of saturday/sunday/monday - and they're on 434.650
[09:51] <daveake> We have 2 flights one with 2 NTX2 payloads on .075 and .650 and the other flight with rfm22b on 434.2
[09:51] <Hix> ajwillink, http://groups.google.com/group/ukhas
[09:51] <daveake> Yeah, we'll sort something out with them
[09:51] <andrew_apex> cheers :)
[09:51] <ajwillink> thanks, checking it out now
[09:52] <mfa298> sp99sp10
[09:52] <mfa298> that would have been the wrong window
[09:54] <ajwillink> ok joined
[09:54] <daveake> Upu or I will annouce on the mailing list nearer the time
[09:54] <gonzo_> wow, that's going to be a busy band! Wonder if I can rx all 4...... poss
[09:54] <ajwillink> OK cool,
[09:55] <ajwillink> Got to go, thanks everyone for your help, @dave, hopefully see you this weekend.
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[10:02] <Hix> If you take a yagi and scale it by 50% would it still be tuned or does the spacing change dependent on the length?
[10:02] <NigelMoby> heh pass .. rf = black magic
[10:03] <Hix> yup
[10:03] <fsphil> if you scaled it by 50% wouldn't it be an antenna for twice the frequency?
[10:03] <mfa298> a lot of the tuning is based on the element length, but I think the spacing is also dependant on frequency
[10:04] <daveake> That's what I would think, but I agree with the black magicness
[10:04] <cuddykid> http://news.sky.com/home/technology/article/16192615
[10:04] <cuddykid> ^ if only we could get exemption from stupid radio regulations in this country!
[10:05] <Hix> ftw
[10:05] <mfa298> it might be that changing the space changes it's radiation pattern as well.
[10:06] <gonzo_> yagi dims are all designed as fractions of a wavelength
[10:06] <Hix> for the cost I think I'm going to try it and see
[10:06] <gonzo_> so they scale pretty well
[10:06] <Hix> ah cool
[10:06] <daveake> I'm pretty sure they work by locally changing the laws of physics
[10:06] <NigelMoby> worth a shot, got a swr meter handy?
[10:06] <gonzo_> though be careful if going too far, as element/boom diams can start to have an effect
[10:07] <Hix> :D daveake
[10:07] <mfa298> building a yagi shouldn't be too hard there's lots of info out there that can help.
[10:07] <Hix> NigelMoby, no, but i was planning on scaling boom and elements by 50% too
[10:07] <gonzo_> there are some good oonline calcs. I use the dl6wu designs
[10:07] <Hix> or near as damn it
[10:07] <gonzo_> hix should eb fine
[10:08] <Hix> I was going to scale my existing 1m yagi
[10:08] <Hix> gotta be worth a go for <£10
[10:08] <mfa298> Hix, I think changing the element lengths and spacing is going to affect the frequency it works at.
[10:09] <Hix> hmm 2 conflicting views - always good :)
[10:09] <mfa298> If size is the problem you can change the number of directors
[10:09] <Hix> Something I could keep in the car was the aim
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[10:10] <Hix> and I have no real loadspace
[10:11] <mfa298> If you start off with a dipole the resonant frequency is based on the length of the elements. Each element is roughly 1/4 of the wavelength (so ~17cm for a 70cm dipole)
[10:11] <andrew_apex> Awesome - just set up my ic-7000 with a memory mode that switches to FM when txing (for the uplink) and then back to USB to receive :)
[10:12] <Hix> mfa298, ok
[10:12] <daveake> I have one of these for use in the car - http://www.moonraker.eu/Amateur-Radio/Beam-and-Yagi-Antennas/ZL-Special-Yagi-Antenna/ZL7-70-70cm-7-ELEMENT-SPECIAL-YAGI-ANTENNA
[10:12] <daveake> It's pretty compact
[10:12] <mfa298> to make a yagi you just add reflectors behind and directors in front (but I'm not sure the calcs for length and spacing - I've only made dipoles so far)
[10:13] <Hix> daveake, it looks like 2 d.e's
[10:13] <andrew_apex> I'm using a collapsable yagi - fits in a car ok when collapsed http://www.radioworld.co.uk/catalog/a430s10r_diamond_430-440mhz_70cm_10_el_yagi-p-3962.html
[10:13] <daveake> Hix yes
[10:13] <Hix> hmm that'd explain 11db for that sort of size
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[10:14] <Hix> afk
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[10:18] <gonzo_> I suggest avoiding the high gain yagi designs. If you a building that is. They are often quite highly tuned. Can be a prob if the design is centred on 432mhz, as lots are. Also they can be a bugger to reproduce and end in disappointment (I've tried lots over the years). Go for a meduim gain design and you'll have a chance of getting it to work.
[10:18] <navrac_> let me dig around for the program I use to design yagi's you can use it to scale designs and check the resulting impedance - with a bit of tadjing you can also see the effect of the changing the size of the conductors - which does make a difference.
[10:19] <navrac_> and i agree - high gain yagis are a real pain.
[10:19] <gonzo_> http://www.k7mem.150m.com/Electronic_Notebook/antennas/yagi_vhf.html
[10:20] <navrac_> http://fermi.la.asu.edu/w9cf/yagipub/index.html
[10:20] <gonzo_> I've used that site for mine and all worked well
[10:22] <navrac_> I used the calculator on the fermi site to modify existing designs to get good matches and it has proved to be pretty accurate - I built a 459MHz yagi based on a 432Mhz one three weeks ago and it gave me an almost perfect 50ohm 1:1 vswr on the first attempt
[10:23] <gonzo_> yep good wide band desuigns
[10:23] <NigelMoby> what's on 459?
[10:23] <navrac_> I was using it for an uplink
[10:23] <Hix> duly bookmarked :) cheers
[10:23] <NigelMoby> ahh
[10:24] <gonzo_> I did a 250mhz 13ele for a magazine article, match first time and was supre clean pattern. As it was for DF work that was ideal
[10:24] <navrac_> I'm ow cobling together a saw filter for the rfm22 as it is a bit prone to deafness due to other signals
[10:26] <navrac_> I can't get thru to that site gonzo_
[10:26] <GW8RAK> gonzo_ any ideas for a very narrow beam aerial but without the complexity of many elements?
[10:28] <navrac_> length ( element spacing) is pretty important - you can get a good deal of gain/directivity with few elements - but matching can become tricky
[10:28] <fsphil> someone should make a 70cm dish
[10:28] <GW8RAK> Or is that another holy grail of aerial design?
[10:28] <navrac_> Surrey university had a 2m dish......
[10:29] <GW8RAK> make a planar parabola so it's only curved in two dimensions
[10:30] <gonzo_> think you have the nub of it there
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[10:31] <gonzo_> a dish is simple (well if you just buy one) but you do need a big one to get any real gain
[10:32] <andrew_apex> do dishes have circular polarisation?
[10:32] <Darkside> depends on the feed
[10:32] <gonzo_> dish is just a reflector. The polorisation is determined by the feed at the focus
[10:32] <GW8RAK> For what I want to do (radio astronomy) it's probably better to go to uwave frequencies to get the beam accuracy
[10:32] <andrew_apex> ah ok
[10:33] <gonzo_> you could use yagi's and do interferometry at lower frequencies
[10:33] <gonzo_> are you in the BAA RAG ?
[10:34] <gonzo_> http://www.britastro.org/radio/
[10:35] <GW8RAK> RAG or RAK?
[10:35] <GW8RAK> Not yet, but will do when I get going.
[10:35] <gonzo_> radio astron' group
[10:35] <GW8RAK> Don't want to make discoveries, just prove what can be done in the back garden
[10:35] <gonzo_> worth joining, it's free.
[10:36] <gonzo_> I'm not interested in the astro side, just the radio
[10:36] <GW8RAK> Same here
[10:37] <gonzo_> there were a few people who made a big dish for 406meg I think. Did an all sky survey using eartyh transiit
[10:38] <GW8RAK> That is what I'd like to do. Map the sky to see what is achievable.
[10:39] <GW8RAK> Hence highly directional aerials
[10:39] <gonzo_> earth transit does simplify the mechanics considerably
[10:40] <gonzo_> I did think of trying to make a big two part parabola, similar to the old observatories
[10:42] <gonzo_> with a single curve parabola on the ground, staked out like a curved wire fence. Then a tilting reflector on the other side of the garden, like a straight fence that will tilt up
[10:42] <gonzo_> That would give a fixed azimuth and variable elevation. And could be almost invisible in the garden when not in use
[10:43] <GW8RAK> You've been thinking the same as I have with the curved fence etc.
[10:43] <GW8RAK> Got plenty of land so not bothered by the neighbours
[10:46] <gonzo_> neigbours are very accomodating here luckilly (they tollerate a 3mtr dish on a mast) but kids footballs are an issue for the antenna farm
[10:48] <gonzo_> btw steve, the RAG hav a yahoo group mailto:baa-rag@yahoogroups.com
[10:52] <Laurenceb> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/03/21/flying_man/
[10:52] <Laurenceb> lol fake
[10:55] <Hix> http://humanbirdwings.net/ that was amusing
[10:56] <gonzo_> 11 days early?
[10:57] <Laurenceb> its sad that anyone would think it was real :(
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[10:59] <gonzo_> the same people who read emails asking them to assiost disposing of $22M
[10:59] <Hix> wasn't it ;p
[11:01] <eroomde> Dear Sirs. We have £5bn to give you. But there is a problem. In exchange you must design a centralised computer record system for the NHS but say it will only cost £1bn. Please reply urgently.
[11:01] <eroomde> the role of the gullible granny is played by Accenture in this game.
[11:01] <Laurenceb> heh
[11:01] <Hix> he he he :D
[11:02] <Laurenceb> i never understood how it could cost anything
[11:02] <eroomde> just use google docs right?
[11:02] <Laurenceb> cant they just grab some database code off github or somewhere
[11:03] <NigelMoby> lol
[11:03] <Laurenceb> or that
[11:03] <NigelMoby> the mind boggles.
[11:05] <gonzo_> but then how would they feather the nests of their friends at the golf club?
[11:05] <NigelMoby> did it really cost 5bn?
[11:05] <gonzo_> inefficiency does not come cheap!
[11:06] <Hix> if they say it did it was probably 9 when you factor everything into it
[11:06] <NigelMoby> jeez...
[11:06] <Laurenceb> http://forums.theregister.co.uk/forum/1/2012/03/21/flying_man/
[11:06] <Laurenceb> seriously
[11:06] <Laurenceb> theres only one comment saying tis fake
[11:07] <NigelMoby> lol they need a clue.
[11:07] <Laurenceb> i like the mini rc plane motors on the "blog" link
[11:08] <Hix> "Seriously impressive though, even with augmentation." ffs
[11:15] <eroomde> the reg is bollocks
[11:15] <Hix> I might sumbit a video to the register turning CO into Gold or something - make my millions and go beat Baqumgartner in a HAB
[11:15] <eroomde> another aticle on the front page
[11:15] <eroomde> "In January, following an angry blog post by British mathematician Tom Gowers,"
[11:16] <eroomde> That would be Tim Gowers
[11:16] <NigelMoby> lol
[11:17] <Hix> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/03/20/self_charging_battery/
[11:17] <Hix> ha ha
[11:17] <Hix> graphene is the new God
[11:18] <Laurenceb> http://gizmodo.com/5894904/man-flies-like-a-bird-flapping-his-own-wings
[11:18] <Laurenceb> pmsl
[11:19] <gonzo_> so when the helium runs out, we can get HABs to fly up
[11:20] <daveake> We'll really be pushing the envelope
[11:20] <NigelMoby> its going to be 1 of those days ain't it...
[11:20] <daveake> Look, I had that one saved up for the next opportunity ...
[11:20] <NigelMoby> lol
[11:21] <gonzo_> hehe, cue up script 3323.......
[11:21] <Hix> to be fair he's come up with an efficient system it only took 4 5000mAh Batteries to power a 100m human flight ;p
[11:22] <gonzo_> play on words, by the left, NUMBER!
[11:33] <Hix> "there have been animals in the past (pterosaurs) larger than us that have conquered flight in a similar manner, so it's doable."
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[11:44] <NigelMoby> interesting nick....
[11:45] <Laurenceb> im more worried about the domain
[11:46] <NigelMoby> ooo yeah.
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[11:56] <griffonbot> @apexhab: Our Nokia Lumia has arrived! (In blue of course). #apexhab #ukhas http://t.co/HBg9Mf9P [http://twitter.com/apexhab/status/182435473032093696]
[11:58] <Laurenceb> spam
[11:59] <fsphil> hehe, nokia are still in business
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[12:31] <Hix> http://imgur.com/R5pbQ test
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[12:45] <navrac_> I'm having fun installing my funcube
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[12:46] <Darkside> installing?
[12:47] <navrac_> well ive installed it but the sma to n type adapter hasnt arrived yet - it is extremely frustrating!
[12:47] <Darkside> oh
[12:47] <navrac_> ive got a reverse sma to n type somewhere
[12:48] <BrainDamage> just stick 2 wires and move them around until reflection disappears :p
[12:48] <navrac_> maybe with a cut off pin....
[12:48] <Darkside> don't use an adapter directly on the FCD
[12:48] <navrac_> no its a flexible lead adapter - broken enough sma's in my time!
[12:49] <Darkside> good :P
[12:52] Action: fsphil hides his sma<>N adaptor
[12:52] <Darkside> i have a small pile of those at uni...
[12:52] <Darkside> and everything else
[12:52] <junderwood> Is there anyone around who could add a new payload description to the tracker?
[12:53] <Darkside> i made up the duplexer with SMB sockets, because i had a drawer of them
[12:55] <Randomskk> junderwood: yes
[12:55] <junderwood> http://pastebin.com/usQqj3wH
[12:55] <junderwood> :)
[12:55] <Randomskk> what's "sate"?
[12:56] <junderwood> a typo
[12:56] <junderwood> Should be sats
[12:56] <Randomskk> p_amb is pressure (ambient)?
[12:57] <junderwood> Yes. in Pa
[12:58] <Randomskk> cool, done
[12:58] <junderwood> Thanks
[12:58] <Randomskk> I've changed some of your field names to fit with the current standards
[12:58] <Randomskk> http://habitat.habhub.org/habitat/ffef47c14b50f0f1ba85dc6e6f8c694d
[12:59] <junderwood> No problem
[12:59] <Randomskk> namely sate -> satellites, int_temp -> temperature_internal, p_amp -> pressure_ambient, batt_volts -> battery
[12:59] <Randomskk> soon the generator will do all that for you
[12:59] <Randomskk> >_>
[12:59] <Randomskk> anyway should be in dl-fldigi in a few minutes
[12:59] <Randomskk> or now, if you have the new dl-fldigi
[13:00] <Hix> junderwood, is there info for preparing this info? for waaay down the line, don't worry :)
[13:00] <junderwood> There is a link hidden on the Wiki
[13:00] <Randomskk> http://habhub.org/genpayload/
[13:01] <junderwood> That's the one :)
[13:01] <Randomskk> uhm, it's written like a bad choose-your-own-adventure because I was reading too many of them at the time
[13:01] <Randomskk> there's a new version to come in a short while that will let you save the flight docs yourself without having to get someone to do it for you
[13:02] <junderwood> It should maybe expire them after a while as well
[13:02] <Randomskk> current flight docs expire when they reach the end of the specified launch window
[13:02] <junderwood> perfect
[13:02] <Randomskk> that system will remain. we'll also implement a better way of having long-lived and test flight docs
[13:02] <Hix> cool - ta
[13:02] <junderwood> There are a lot of active launch windows!
[13:03] <Randomskk> because right now a few docs end 'never' so that people don't have to keep getting a new one
[13:03] <Randomskk> yea, ^
[13:03] <Darkside> :-)
[13:03] <junderwood> Vortex seems to work nicely. I don't suppose there's an easy way of deleting it from the tracker?
[13:03] <Randomskk> in the soon to come system, there will be one flight doc /per flight/ rather than one doc per payload
[13:03] <Randomskk> junderwood: I can do that for you too, sec
[13:03] <junderwood> Ta
[13:04] <Randomskk> done
[13:06] <daveake> Randomskk Do feel free to delete my chase car too :)
[13:06] <Randomskk> hah I forgot about all the amazing text prompts in genpayload
[13:06] <Randomskk> it's definitely worth reading the text box at the the top as you step through
[13:15] <cuddykid> looking at my pcbs - looks like I need an 8mhz crystal
[13:16] <Randomskk> maybe. you can use a range of crystals
[13:16] <Randomskk> AVR ATmega?
[13:16] <cuddykid> yeah
[13:16] <Randomskk> 3v3 or 5v?
[13:16] <cuddykid> I will be running it at 8mhz
[13:16] <cuddykid> 5v
[13:16] <Randomskk> okay
[13:16] <Randomskk> well to run it at 8MHz you will need an 8MHz crystal :P
[13:16] <Randomskk> you could go up to 20MHz though
[13:17] <cuddykid> oh no - actually it might be 3v3 - been so long since I designed it lol
[13:17] <cuddykid> yes, 3v3 at 8mhz :P
[13:17] <Randomskk> ah
[13:17] <Randomskk> then yes
[13:22] <cuddykid> will this one do the job? (using spark fun crystal footprint on pcb) -> http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/crystals/4789347/
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[13:23] <Randomskk> to be entirely honest you probably don't need a crystal
[13:23] <Randomskk> the AVR has an internal 8MHz RC oscillator
[13:23] <Randomskk> which is lower accuracy but
[13:23] <Randomskk> well, good enough for 4800 baud GPS NMEA data
[13:23] <Randomskk> however sure, that crystal is probably fine
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[13:25] <cuddykid> that's annoying, I can only buy 10 minimum :(
[13:26] <cuddykid> oh, hello ebay
[13:26] <cuddykid> forgot about you
[13:26] <zyp> crystals are cheap
[13:26] <cuddykid> comes out at £3.70
[13:27] <zyp> and you can't afford that?
[13:27] <Randomskk> seriously though you probably don't need it
[13:27] <cuddykid> lol
[13:27] <cuddykid> I can - but I'd rather 1 at £1 or something
[13:27] <fsphil> I'm always forgetting about ebay
[13:27] <Hix> http://goo.gl/rrS9h
[13:27] <Hix> cuddykid
[13:27] <Hix> or http://goo.gl/GLBJw
[13:28] <cuddykid> oh nice Hix :)
[13:28] <cuddykid> can I pick up from a store? Is there a min price order?
[13:29] <Randomskk> I believe cpc/farnell have a £20 minimum credit card order for personal customers
[13:29] <kokey> anyone use anything other than an ntx2?
[13:29] <Randomskk> kokey: yes
[13:29] <Randomskk> cuddykid: you can probably even get one from maplins
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[13:29] <Randomskk> but seriously, try without one
[13:30] <Randomskk> it'l almost certainly work
[13:30] <Randomskk> and if it doesn't you've lost nothing
[13:30] <Randomskk> or just buy some from ebay or RS or anywhere really
[13:30] <cuddykid> Randomskk: with GPS/radio/microSD/temp sensors running off atmega?
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[13:30] <Randomskk> yes
[13:30] <cuddykid> oh ok
[13:30] <Randomskk> micro SD is clocked by avr so accuracy doesn't matter
[13:30] <Randomskk> GPS is like 4800 baud so will be fine
[13:30] <Randomskk> radio is 50/300 baud, also fine
[13:30] <Randomskk> temp sensors are slow, also fine
[13:31] <cuddykid> I've just placed an ebay order so if they arrive in time I'll run with them
[13:31] <fsphil> cpc don't have a minimum but it's a silly handling charge for cheap orders
[13:32] <cuddykid> £1.40 for 4 incl postage
[13:32] <kokey> I remember the price of crystals at hobby shops vs getting them from RS
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[13:33] <zyp> Randomskk, baudrate doesn't really matter, the error percentage is still the same
[13:34] <zyp> and while it might be fine enough in room temperature, I'd expect the internal oscillator to vary way more with temperature than a crystal oscillator
[13:34] <Randomskk> so you're saying that 115200 baud should work just as well as 300 baud from the RC?
[13:35] <andrew_apex> hi Graeme_SHARP
[13:35] <Graeme_SHARP> Hey Andrew.
[13:35] <zyp> I'm saying that a 5% timing error is a 5% timing error regardless of the baudrate
[13:35] <Randomskk> okay, I don't disagree
[13:36] <zyp> so there is no reason a lower baudrate would be less sensitive to timing errors than higher baudrates
[13:36] <Randomskk> I guess. that hasn't been my experience
[13:37] <daveake> One factor is that with higher baud rates it's often more difficult to hit the baud rate exactly, depending on the oscillator frequency and what dividers youhave
[13:37] <zyp> yes
[13:37] <daveake> So it's easier to drift outside that 5%
[13:37] <Randomskk> I guess the physical properties of the transmission will have an effect too
[13:37] <zyp> depends on which way you are drifting
[13:37] <daveake> zyp of course
[13:37] <Randomskk> the rise and fall times are going to be much more significant at higher bauds
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[13:39] <daveake> true
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[13:51] <Graeme_SHARP> Daveake / Upu: I understand you are planning a launch on Saturday - we are about to have a meeting to plan the logistics for our weekend of launching (we're not sure on Sat vs Sun vs Mon yet). What kind of time are you thinking about and what freq are you working on so we avoid stepping on your toes?
[13:51] <UpuWork> Just the man
[13:51] <UpuWork> got a moment for a quick chat Graeme ?
[13:52] <Graeme_SHARP> Yep. :)
[13:52] <UpuWork> PM
[13:57] <fsphil> a tweet from project blue horizon. I thought they'd given up
[14:02] <NigeyS> PBH XVIII
[14:02] <NigeyS> Mid March 2012
[14:02] <NigeyS> -
[14:02] Last message repeated 2 time(s).
[14:02] <NigeyS> Mission #1 - Duration Mission
[14:02] <NigeyS> fun
[14:03] <fsphil> looks like they're planning a launch shortly
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[15:20] <Hix> Could someone explain what C3 is doing in this scematic? I linkd VCC to GND but doesn't seem to interact with anything else
[15:20] <Hix> http://i.imgur.com/kt8J5.png
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[15:21] <navrac_> its a decoupling cap - just stick it nr the supply pins of the ic
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[15:21] <gonzo_> it's local decoupling cap for the processor supply
[15:23] <Hix> ah ok, thanks - i just couldn't work out where it connected
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[15:25] <Hix> so it'd be routed in parallel close to the vcc pins [4,6,18]
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[15:27] <navrac_> yep
[15:28] <Lunar_Lander> btw, decoupling capacitor...
[15:28] <Lunar_Lander> it's not needed for GPS and radio, right?
[15:28] <Hix> and this is purely to filter out fluctuations and noise from switching etc in other parts of the circuit
[15:28] <fsphil> I'd put a decoupling cap on every IC
[15:28] <fsphil> any digital device really
[15:28] <Randomskk> any power supply pins
[15:29] <Randomskk> every power supply pin, in fact
[15:29] <Randomskk> so multiple caps for devices with multiple VCCs
[15:29] <fsphil> wires have inductance, they resist quick changes in current. the decoupling cap helps fill the gap
[15:29] <navrac_> you can never have too much decoupling - one per chip
[15:29] <Randomskk> one or more per chip*
[15:29] <Randomskk> sometimes, multiple caps per pin
[15:29] <Hix> ok
[15:30] <Randomskk> usually you can get away with just 100nF on every VCC
[15:30] <Randomskk> but some things have more specific requirements
[15:30] <Randomskk> I think even the AVR likes certain things on its AREF and AVCC
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[15:30] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[15:30] <Hix> I've seen the spec sheet for volt regs and they specify the caps
[15:30] <Hix> assume its so they quoted voltage is pure
[15:30] <Lunar_Lander> so have a decoupler on NTX2 and GPS?
[15:31] <fsphil> do no harm
[15:31] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[15:31] <Lunar_Lander> what capacitance is good?
[15:31] <fsphil> your gps module may or may not already have them
[15:32] <Randomskk> many GPS modules will actually specify specific externals
[15:32] <Hix> Lunar_Lander, <Randomskk> usually you can get away with just 100nF on every VCC
[15:32] <Randomskk> 100nF is a good ballpark. it depends on the device a lot though
[15:32] <Randomskk> so for example in cases where you really need it to work well you want the capacitcor's self resonant frequency to be at the frequency of the device it's decoupling
[15:32] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[15:32] <Lunar_Lander> Upu, does your module have those?
[15:33] <Randomskk> which is why some chips have really really small -- like, a few picofarads -- decoupling caps, and then after those, larger -- 10nF or 100nF -- and sometimes even bigger reservoir caps after that -- a few µF
[15:33] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[15:33] <Randomskk> mostly though 100nF is okay
[15:33] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[15:33] <Lunar_Lander> ceramic or that polyester thing?
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[15:36] <Hix> I really don't think they are paying me to design flight computers in Eagle here.....
[15:36] <Hix> he he he
[15:36] <Randomskk> ceramic generally
[15:36] <Lunar_Lander> ok
[15:37] <UpuWork> yes Lunar_Lander the modules have decoupling on them
[15:37] <UpuWork> 100nF
[15:37] <Lunar_Lander> that is good
[15:37] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[15:37] <Lunar_Lander> is it the small thing just above the GND pin?
[15:38] <UpuWork> yep
[15:38] <Hix> i assume it's smart to mount radiometrix and GSM as far away from eack other on a board
[15:38] <Randomskk> and GPS
[15:39] <Hix> gps and GSm ok nearer to each other than Tx
[15:41] <Lunar_Lander> but GSM is also a transmitter
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[15:46] <Randomskk> actually the NTX2 and GPS are better closer if anything
[15:46] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[15:46] <Lunar_Lander> why?
[15:46] <Randomskk> the GSM is the most likely to interfere with the GPS
[15:46] <Randomskk> much closer in frequency
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[15:47] <Lunar_Lander> yea
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[15:57] <fsphil> also higher power
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[16:03] <Lunar_Lander> quich
[16:03] <Lunar_Lander> quick
[16:03] <Lunar_Lander> which river is liverpool on?
[16:03] <Randomskk> mersey estuary?
[16:03] <Lunar_Lander> thanks :)
[16:06] <Laurenceb> down to two lifelines
[16:06] <Laurenceb> do you want to ask the audience?
[16:07] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[16:07] <Lunar_Lander> what are lifelines?
[16:07] <Lunar_Lander> are these the amounts you can't loose once achieved?
[16:07] <Randomskk> if WWTBAM had 'use the internet for 30 seconds' as a lifeline...
[16:07] <Laurenceb> goatse
[16:07] <UpuWork> two girls..
[16:07] <Lunar_Lander> ah, in germany we call these "jokers"
[16:08] <Randomskk> lifelines was a pop culture reference to the TV show who wants to be a millionaire
[16:09] <Lunar_Lander> yeah I know
[16:09] <Lunar_Lander> I just didn't know, is it the thing that helps on a question
[16:09] <Randomskk> yea
[16:09] <Lunar_Lander> or are those the two amounts that you can't loose
[16:10] <Randomskk> ah, right
[16:10] <Randomskk> it's the things that help on the question
[16:10] <Lunar_Lander> yea
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[16:14] <Lunar_Lander> btw what do you think about the cube with philip schofield on ITV?
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[16:37] <Lunar_Lander> hi andrew_apex
[16:37] <andrew_apex> afternoon Lunar_Lander
[16:38] <Lunar_Lander> how are you?
[16:38] <griffonbot> @LVL1WhiteStar: Video posted of our zero pressure balloon vacuum leak testing: http://t.co/NJGpUcrP #ukhas #arhab #balloons #science [http://twitter.com/LVL1WhiteStar/status/182506390420602881]
[16:38] <Lunar_Lander> and when will we have data from Apex III on the website?
[16:38] <andrew_apex> good thanks - just getting SHARP ready for launch this weekend
[16:38] <Lunar_Lander> cool, so you work with them?
[16:39] <andrew_apex> sort of - none of them know electronics, radio or ballooning, so I'm helping out :)
[16:40] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[16:40] <Lunar_Lander> why did they postpone?
[16:40] <andrew_apex> I'd left them to finish program it, and it wasn't ready
[16:40] <andrew_apex> there were some radio issues
[16:41] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[16:41] <Lunar_Lander> which exactly?
[16:41] <andrew_apex> it uses gadgeteer, which tries to multithread (very poorly)
[16:41] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[16:41] <andrew_apex> meaning the RTTY has random pauses of a few ms every now and then
[16:41] <Lunar_Lander> what exactly is gadgeteer?
[16:41] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[16:41] <Lunar_Lander> so that isn't good
[16:42] <andrew_apex> indeed :P
[16:44] <Hix> andrew_apex, is it because of the hardware or just because of .NET?
[16:45] <Hix> I know there are a lot of .NET haters
[16:45] <andrew_apex> Hix: it's down to .NET
[16:45] <Hix> Is it that bad then?
[16:45] <andrew_apex> it works if you stop everything else while transmitting
[16:46] <Hix> what is it written ini?
[16:46] <Hix> in
[16:46] <andrew_apex> C#
[16:47] <Hix> oh7lzb, bummer - I was goin g to try and use netduino for a future launch opnce i'd got arduino computers running
[16:47] <Hix> hmmm oh thurned into something v wierd
[16:47] <Hix> ah someones nick
[16:48] <Hix> is C# really that bad then? Or is it just not suited to embedded tasks
[16:49] <Randomskk> its very widespread use suggests it probaly isn't that bad in and of itself
[16:49] <Randomskk> however in this case I think the issues were its appropriateness for this embedded platform
[16:49] <Randomskk> or perhaps the platform itself
[16:49] <andrew_apex> yeah
[16:49] <r2x0t> it's not impossible to use threaded os like FreeRTOS for this, but you have to do things differently
[16:49] <BrainDamage> it runs on a VM, that typically ramps up computing requirements and adds overhead
[16:49] <r2x0t> use interrupts, timers and HW UARTs as much as possible
[16:50] <Hix> oh ok. Didn't think it could be that bad. was it the gadgeteer modular hardware thingy
[16:50] <andrew_apex> we're counting timer ticks
[16:50] <andrew_apex> but it keeps going off and doing other stuff, then missing ticks
[16:51] <daveake> You need an RTOS, and it sounds like that isn't one.
[16:51] <andrew_apex> exactly
[16:51] <r2x0t> if you want to play with something more complicated, ARM atmel with FreeRTOS is a way to go
[16:51] <Hix> whats RTOS
[16:52] <andrew_apex> real time operating system
[16:52] <r2x0t> RealTimeOperatingSystem
[16:52] <Randomskk> FreeRTOS is okay. I like ChibiOS >_>
[16:52] <BrainDamage> why arm atmel?
[16:52] <daveake> Real Time Operating System
[16:52] <Hix> ah thought so but it was aguess
[16:52] <Randomskk> you don't need an RTOS for a balloon payload though really
[16:52] <r2x0t> depends on what you want to do with a payload
[16:52] <Randomskk> it's definitely useful once you scale up to more complicated projects
[16:52] <r2x0t> but usually not
[16:52] <BrainDamage> RTOS adds the advantage it abstracts the hardware a bit so you can exchange chip more or less easily
[16:53] <daveake> i.e. one that provides a program with the ability to run at specified times (e.g. on a timer) within a guaranteed time range
[16:53] <Hix> the netduino is ATmel 32 bit
[16:53] <Hix> but but 60K ram
[16:53] <Hix> assume .net would eat that pretty quickly?
[16:54] <r2x0t> .NET on this looks really like a bad idea
[16:54] <daveake> If you're going to use an OS then use one suitable for the job. Or don't use an OS at all.
[16:54] <Hix> so gould you use FreeRTOS with the netduino
[16:54] <Hix> all just theory at the moment
[16:55] <r2x0t> yes, that is possible
[16:55] <Hix> ah ok. Good to know for future ref
[16:55] <r2x0t> seems to be working: http://forums.netduino.com/index.php?/topic/1167-freertos/
[16:57] <r2x0t> I did some work with ARM 100MHz CPU and FreeRTOS interfacing it to LAN for measuring things...
[16:57] <r2x0t> it wasn't that complex, just modified the lwIP stack demo
[16:57] <Hix> arent ARM used in a lot of smartphone these days?
[16:58] <r2x0t> yes
[16:58] <Randomskk> and pretty much anything
[16:58] <r2x0t> http://forums.netduino.com/index.php?/topic/1231-netduinoblinkingled-native/
[16:58] <r2x0t> sample native code demo for netduino
[16:58] <Hix> so I'm presuming that as they can run fairly complex programs they should be pretty useful
[16:59] <kokey> I did some code for an ARM chip when I had a GP2X
[17:00] <kokey> linux, gcc
[17:00] <r2x0t> this sample may be nice base for better baloon controller
[17:00] <r2x0t> instead of .NET
[17:00] <kokey> I guess a netduino is made for WinCE types
[17:00] <kokey> bless their souls
[17:01] <r2x0t> hehe
[17:01] <Hix> I've got an old Ipaq I'd quite happily drop from a HAB :)
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[17:03] <daveake> number10, knock next door and say thanks for the 50p, but I don't earn that much yet
[17:04] <number10> will do
[17:04] <daveake> ta
[17:05] <number10> you need to do more work an less hab
[17:05] <number10> we'll have you working 7 days a week before long
[17:06] <daveake> true
[17:06] <number10> ouch 3p litre going ahead as planned - not going to be able to afford a long chase soon
[17:07] <kokey> I thought fuel duty will be unchanged?
[17:08] <Hix> you knwo what thought thought :)
[17:09] <number10> Upu is going to be a bit miffed with that stamp duty increase when he comes to sell ;)
[17:09] <kokey> yeah a bit rough on my 2.5L V6
[17:10] <daveake> 3L V6 :(
[17:10] <number10> is you pug a 3l
[17:10] <daveake> It drinks quicker than a student on a Friday night
[17:10] <daveake> yep
[17:11] <kokey> my girlfriend drinks like a student on a friday night
[17:11] <number10> ooo - I think you are going to have to convert the Mrs daves car for chase
[17:11] <kokey> I've been trying to un-teach her binge drinking
[17:11] <daveake> That's what we
[17:11] <daveake> 've used the last couple
[17:11] <kokey> I think if I tell her she drinks as fast as the car it might make an impression
[17:12] <daveake> piston broke?
[17:12] <number10> it could back fire - you may hav to sell the 2.5l
[17:14] <Hix> 3.02p per litre so the forecourts will immediately round that to 3.0p
[17:14] <Hix> 3.9p
[17:15] <Hix> oops
[17:15] <kokey> I'm more worried about the price of oil than of fuel duty
[17:15] <kokey> that said some analysts are saying it's a futures spike that might come apart again soon
[17:16] <Hix> 23 MPG has just got very painful
[17:20] <kokey> I've got no concept of mpg
[17:20] <kokey> I know l/100km
[17:20] <kokey> and I think mpg must be even more confusing since there are US gallons
[17:22] <Lunar_Lander> btw how did we get from SHARP to car engines?
[17:22] <Hix> UK budget announcement
[17:23] <fsphil> forgot about that
[17:23] Action: fsphil bends over
[17:24] <Hix> sorry sir we're out of goose fat
[17:24] <Hix> it's going to be dry
[17:25] <Lunar_Lander> XD
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[17:29] <Upu> it goes on house price number10 not altitude
[17:30] <number10> oh sorry Upu ;)
[17:32] <Morseman_G0DJA> I think I've just had "one of those days" !
[17:33] <Hix> has the wind changed and your face stuck
[17:34] <Morseman_G0DJA> I've nearly ended up walking into the back garden and screaming out loud...
[17:34] <Morseman_G0DJA> Anyway, what news of balloons?
[17:35] <Hix> theyve gone up too ;p
[17:36] <daveake> <old_joke>That's inflation for you</old_joke>
[17:36] <NigeyS> oh dave......
[17:36] <Hix> <comedy_trombone>
[17:36] <cuddykid> iPhone 4 16gb sold for £300 cash :D
[17:36] <Hix> knew I could rely on you for a followup
[17:36] Action: Morseman_G0DJA groans
[17:36] <Hix> :D
[17:38] <Lunar_Lander> discharge!
[17:39] <Hix> neagative
[17:39] <Morseman_G0DJA> I think I've lost an electron somewhere
[17:40] <Hix> are you sure?
[17:40] <BrainDamage> he's positive
[17:40] <Hix> he he he
[17:40] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[17:40] <BrainDamage> your mother is so ugly even fluorine won't bond with her
[17:41] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[17:41] <Morseman_G0DJA> Missed the puchline...
[17:42] <BrainDamage> I'd make another elements joke, but all good ones Argon
[17:43] <Upu> IRC question how do you mute someone ?
[17:43] <Morseman_G0DJA> I think of them periodically
[17:43] <BrainDamage> try /ignore username?
[17:44] <BrainDamage> ( 10s later I am ignored )
[17:44] <Upu> lol
[17:46] <Randomskk> Upu: set mode +q on them
[17:46] <Randomskk> on supported IRC servers
[17:46] <Randomskk> to mute them in the channel
[17:46] <Randomskk> (/ignore so that just you don't see what they say)
[17:47] <Upu> its ok they seem to have stopped making chemistry jokes
[17:47] <NigeyS> lol
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[17:54] <Hix> :D
[17:58] <Hix> Upu, daveake - just ran a rough predict
[17:58] <Hix> http://habhub.org/predict/#!/uuid=1c111922d93b827b0c33b849ffe76645ff4629df
[17:58] <Hix> looks like its right by one of the trackers
[17:58] <Hix> and easy to follow down the M4 and south circular :)
[17:58] <Hix> though it is very early
[18:07] <daveake> Not happening - http://habhub.org/predict/#!/uuid=0e11d29571cbbfa4d86fc74d3bda9e2040a47635
[18:08] <Hix> what cause of path?
[18:09] <daveake> Way too much chance of another sea landing. Yes I realise that Upu and I have recently fought and beaten that particular foe, but really there's a very good chance of losing this one. Also a flight over central london isn't the best idea what with the chance of an early burst
[18:10] <Hix> lets hope the winds shift then...
[18:10] <Hix> would have got some great images though :)
[18:10] <daveake> I nearly said "premature evacuation" there, but I could see Upu's finger ready to +q me or something
[18:11] <daveake> Yeah, I'd rather get the photos from outside the M25 really :)
[18:11] <Hix> I was thinking of the channel and france if it's this clear
[18:12] <daveake> Not much point taking good photos then dunking the cameras offshore
[18:12] <daveake> The prediction hasn't changed much all week so I don't see if changing now
[18:12] <Hix> Amphibious habload with deployable propellor and rudder for sea ditches :)
[18:13] <daveake> Yeah, I'm sure I can knock that together in 2 days ... :D
[18:13] <Hix> c'mon simple ;p
[18:14] <Hix> Brighton looks good :) - if you can get a french tracker to post back
[18:14] <Hix> http://habhub.org/predict/#!/uuid=c76b7f407e899f84156af6871680fb9f5dbb8e1d
[18:14] <Hix> and a very urgent NOTAM..... :|
[18:16] <Hix> or for sea launches you could program it to emit 121.5MHz and give tracking to coastguard - great practice for them ;p
[18:16] <Hix> landings rather
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[18:22] <griffonbot> Received email: David Akerman "Re: [UKHAS] Provisional Launch Notification 24th March"
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[18:41] <number10> shame about the weather - but I think you both need a launch that isnt so marginal after last experiences
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[19:21] <Lunar_Lander> daveake, what's +q?
[19:26] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[19:26] <Lunar_Lander> thanks
[19:27] <_Hix> Hix_M4300
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[19:37] <_Hix> Upu, they're pretty weeny :D
[19:37] <_Hix> http://imgur.com/F1C38
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[19:53] <Upu> those are the big ones Hix
[19:54] <Upu> you should see the pico ones
[19:54] <Upu> or did you mean the GSM bit ?
[19:54] <Upu> thats pretty small too
[19:54] <Upu> watch the static if you operate that antenna without the plastic radome
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[20:01] <jcoxon> evening all
[20:01] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[20:04] <fsphil> yoyo
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[20:05] <Lunar_Lander> what is the most expensive shopping place in the UK
[20:05] <Lunar_Lander> harrolds or so?
[20:06] <Lunar_Lander> ah Harrods
[20:09] <jcoxon> has anyone played with power saving modes on a ublox6?
[20:10] <Upu> navrac I think ?
[20:11] <Upu> did anyone come back to you on that mail you sent ?
[20:11] <Upu> http://www.holmea.demon.co.uk/GPS/Main.htm
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[20:12] <jcoxon> no one replied
[20:12] <jcoxon> :-(
[20:12] <NigeyS> jcoxon
[20:12] <fsphil-laptop> me eventually
[20:12] <NigeyS> B5 62 06 11 02 00 08 01 22 92
[20:12] <NigeyS> should enable pwrsve
[20:12] <NigeyS> ?
[20:13] <Upu> Well I thought it was a good idea :/
[20:13] <jcoxon> Upu, i think people are just being slow
[20:13] <Upu> ok
[20:13] <jcoxon> NigeyS, I find that if i set this then it resets the module
[20:13] <jcoxon> (this is before a lock)
[20:13] <NigeyS> oh, ive not had that happen yet :|
[20:13] <jcoxon> once i've got a lock it doesn't cause the reset
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[20:14] <NigeyS> interesting, neo6 or max6 ?
[20:14] <jcoxon> max6
[20:15] <navrac> might explain the repeating 10th sentence
[20:15] <jcoxon> it loses all settings of course on reset
[20:15] <jcoxon> i'm still investigating
[20:15] <navrac> tricky beast then
[20:15] <NigeyS> hrm
[20:16] <jcoxon> once we've got it cracked it'll be fine
[20:16] <jcoxon> from a micro point of view
[20:16] <jcoxon> just need to set teh power save mode once you've got lock
[20:16] <jcoxon> thats not difficult
[20:16] <NigeyS> yep, hopefully
[20:16] <navrac> So pwrsv mode works but only if you call it after its locked?
[20:16] <jcoxon> yeah
[20:16] <x-f> what happens if it looses lock?
[20:16] <jcoxon> otherwise it resets the module (after about 3 seconds) and you are back to max performance
[20:17] <navrac> hmm dont remeber seeing that in the docs
[20:17] <jcoxon> this is my experience
[20:17] <jcoxon> playing with u-center
[20:17] <NigeyS> the docs are sodding useless!
[20:17] <navrac> makes sense and explains some things i saw
[20:17] <Upu> if you have any tech support questions I can bounce them back to AlphaMicro
[20:18] <navrac> So no launches this weekend? got the new aerial and a funcube set up today in preperation for the weekend
[20:18] <daveake> sharp maybe
[20:18] <jcoxon> also powersave mode takes a bit of time tokick in
[20:19] <jcoxon> watching the current
[20:19] <Upu> yeah sorry predictions are not great : http://hourly.upuaut.net
[20:19] <Upu> I hope they've done their predictions as well
[20:19] <NigeyS> how long you think james, i had the probes on for quite a while and saw noticeable drop
[20:19] <navrac> did you have to do anything special to get cyclic mode running or is that just the pwrsave default
[20:19] <NigeyS> +no*
[20:19] <NigeyS> 1/10s cyclic is pwrsve default
[20:20] <jcoxon> NigeyS, oh only 1 minute
[20:20] <NigeyS> hrm, mine might just be a code error, not calling it right, ill have to recheck
[20:21] <jcoxon> also it'll bounce around a bit
[20:21] <jcoxon> depending on teh signal
[20:21] <NigeyS> yeah, even normal it tended to bounce, 51 was the lowest 60.1 highest iirc
[20:21] <navrac> wild guess on the average in pwrsve?
[20:21] <jcoxon> currently i'm at 15mA
[20:21] <jcoxon> with 6 sats
[20:22] <navrac> thats not too bad
[20:22] <jcoxon> and 1 second cyclic
[20:22] <jcoxon> NigeyS, so did you get it working then?
[20:23] <NigeyS> ive only had eco working, pwrsve is the 1 im having probs with
[20:23] <jcoxon> okay
[20:23] <navrac> eco doesnt give great savings
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[20:23] <NigeyS> nope, going to bash away at getting pwrsve done
[20:23] <jcoxon> NigeyS, let me see if i make some progress this evening
[20:24] <NigeyS> okies will do
[20:24] <jcoxon> i think teh default psm is good
[20:25] <NigeyS> problem ive had is trying to get a lock in this room, its very iffy for gps, and can only hold those probes for so long!
[20:25] <jcoxon> though there wouldn't be any performance problem with the max update period (10s)
[20:25] <jcoxon> NigeyS, hehe i'm sitting by the window with the gps outside
[20:25] <jcoxon> and my meter inside
[20:25] <jonsowman> why not just poll the gps when you want a position?
[20:25] <NigeyS> cheat! lol tbh i should get some croc clips for the meter
[20:27] <jcoxon> i think this cyclic mode is in the background
[20:27] <jcoxon> so you can poll when you want
[20:27] <jcoxon> its more when the internal engine updates
[20:28] <jonsowman> jcoxon: is it possible to have it only calculate a nagivation solution when requested?
[20:28] <jcoxon> not that i've found in the docs
[20:28] <jonsowman> okay
[20:28] <jcoxon> from my understanding it still needs to keep track of stuff
[20:28] <jonsowman> yeah, i could understand why that wouldn't be possible
[20:29] <jcoxon> but you make big powersavings with these modes
[20:29] <jcoxon> and you'll save power by turning off the nmea stream
[20:31] <fsphil-laptop> would be nice if you could put it asleep, exactly like if it was switched off but using power to keep the state like with the backup battery
[20:32] <fsphil-laptop> if you're powering it down for 60 seconds, it doesn't matter much if it takes 10 seconds to lock again
[20:32] <jcoxon> well you can
[20:32] <jcoxon> you can turn the gps engine on and off
[20:32] <jcoxon> but it draws about 10mA
[20:32] <jcoxon> so there isn't that much benefit
[20:32] <fsphil-laptop> that's more than it should
[20:32] <fsphil-laptop> yea
[20:34] <jcoxon> oh my meter can't measure lower than that
[20:34] <jcoxon> hehe
[20:35] <fsphil-laptop> ah, so it might be better than that
[20:36] <daveake> Most meters should manage 1mA resolution at least.
[20:36] <daveake> jcoxon I'll happily send you a spare meter that can :)
[20:37] <Upu> that pico board I've done can switch the GPS module off entirely
[20:38] <navrac> I'll have 15mA continuous rather than 10 seconds at 70mA every minute
[20:39] <navrac> the lower the discharge rate the better the battery will last
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[20:47] <Laurenceb_> yoyo
[20:47] <fsphil-laptop> I lost mine in the 80s
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[20:55] <jcoxon> hooray
[20:55] <jcoxon> i've got it to go into low power mode with my flight computer
[20:55] <daveake> excellent
[20:55] <jcoxon> just have to wait till it gets a lock before setting the power saving mode
[20:59] <Upu> Are you allow to launch from "common land" i.e National Trust without permission ?
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[21:10] <jcoxon> NigeyS, navrac, http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:ublox_psm
[21:17] <Morseman> Test
[21:18] <daveake> - . ... -
[21:18] <NigeyS> ah cheers james, will try that when ive had dinner
[21:20] <Morseman> - - - - .-
[21:20] <fsphil-laptop> ... -- ... :)
[21:20] <navrac> does that work with the dodgey locks - where there is still NF shown in the polled string
[21:21] <navrac> but lat&Lon>0 ?
[21:23] <Morseman> Trying mobile IRC
[21:23] <Laurenceb_> jcoxon: interesting
[21:24] <Laurenceb_> whats the power now?
[21:24] Nick change: heathkid|2 -> heathkid
[21:24] <Laurenceb_> ah 12ma
[21:24] <Laurenceb_> not bad
[21:24] <Laurenceb_> but cant you run at lower voltage?
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[21:25] <navrac> there are 1.8v modules
[21:25] <jcoxon> navrac, probably best that way
[21:25] <jcoxon> but i was just doing rapid testing
[21:26] <jcoxon> my max6 has never given me dodgy strings
[21:26] <Laurenceb_> NEO-6G-0 looks good
[21:26] <navrac> well congrats - didnt you get the tunisia typre reasdings yesterday?
[21:26] <jcoxon> on the antenova
[21:27] <navrac> ah - i saw them on my max in poor conditions ( on my office window)
[21:27] <Laurenceb_> max6 is 3v only right?
[21:27] <Laurenceb_> i they can go down to 12ma@1.8v thats really nice
[21:27] <Upu> navrac I've had dodgy strings, always when its had lock then looses it
[21:28] <navrac> Ive had strings that give dodgey co-ords and the string has nf in it. I wondered whether if you put it in powersave when its in that state does it lock up
[21:28] <navrac> sorry reset
[21:29] <navrac> biab
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[21:48] <junderwood> Randomskk, are you still around?
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[22:12] <craag> Does anyone know if it would be possible to decode the RTTY using the audio from an AM receiver instead of SSB?
[22:13] <craag> (the 70cm standard HAB rtty)
[22:13] <fsphil-laptop> if you where somehow able to inject a carrier wave, yea
[22:15] <fsphil-laptop> have you a receiver that does AM at 70cm?
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[22:16] <craag> I've just found my ft7800 can be switched to AM mode.
[22:16] <craag> I'm reading the manual and it's down in the car, so haven't played with it yet tho.
[22:18] <fsphil-laptop> if you can find the intermediate frequency of the radio, it might be possible to produce the carrier there
[22:19] <andrew_apex> craag: interesting - one of the SHARP team has an AM receiver for 70cm...
[22:19] <fsphil-laptop> not sure if that's practical
[22:20] <Lunar_Lander> SSB is needed
[22:22] <fsphil-laptop> SSB is AM without the carrier and only one side band
[22:22] <fsphil-laptop> if you add the carrier back in an AM receiver should be able to hear it
[22:23] <craag> What is the carrier actually required for in an AM receiver?
[22:23] <craag> Just got back from the car, I can turn the squelch down and hear static..
[22:24] <fsphil-laptop> it's a side effect of how an AM signal is modulated
[22:24] <fsphil-laptop> it doesn't really do anything, bit of a waste of power
[22:25] <fsphil-laptop> although it makes for really simple transmitters and receivers
[22:25] <craag> I understand that, just wondering why I need to inject it into the receiver.
[22:25] <craag> LOL step size on the rx may be a problem, minimum of 5KHz :/
[22:26] <andrew_apex> haha
[22:26] <fsphil-laptop> that is better answered by someone who understands it better than me :)
[22:26] <fsphil-laptop> ooch
[22:34] <craag> andrew_apex: Would you be able to transmit some rtty for me?
[22:34] <daveake> Well, you inject the local oscillator frequency and then mix with the incoming signal, producing the audio (which you keep) and 2 x oscillator which you throw away
[22:34] <daveake> Something like that. It's been a long time :)
[22:35] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[22:35] <Lunar_Lander> how have you been?
[22:35] <fsphil-laptop> wibbly wobbly waves
[22:36] <daveake> Even simpler than my explanation :)
[22:36] <Lunar_Lander> daveake, are you glados?
[22:36] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[22:39] <fsphil-laptop> he doesn't have any cake
[22:39] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:40] Action: fsphil-laptop hates homework more now than he did in school
[22:41] <gonzo_> google for "beat frequency oscillator"
[22:41] <fsphil-laptop> sounds like a band
[22:41] <gonzo_> that's what they used in the 40/50's for assing CW reception on Am receivers
[22:42] <gonzo_> hehe yep, sort of hawkwing style!
[22:42] <craag> cheers gonzo_, looking at it now.
[22:42] <gonzo_> hawkwind
[22:42] <daveake> :)
[22:43] Action: fsphil-laptop googles
[22:43] <gonzo_> the scanner probably has wide filters, so you should be able to tweak the frequency of the BFO, to give a fine tune between your 5khz steps
[22:43] <andrew_apex> craag: i haven't got SHARP here at the moment...
[22:44] Action: andrew_apex works out how to transmit RTTY
[22:44] <gonzo_> but to be honest, it's probably easier to hook up with some local amateurs with ssb rx kit
[22:44] <fsphil-laptop> yes
[22:45] <craag> andrew_apex: I wondered if you had your 7000 set up for tx? No worries if not.
[22:45] <andrew_apex> craag: yup I do
[22:45] <andrew_apex> one moment :)
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[22:46] <andrew_apex> craag: pick a frequency!
[22:47] <craag> gimme a mo, moving laptop back out to the car..
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[22:47] Action: fsphil-laptop is playing Silver machine
[22:49] <craag> andrew_apex: 433.6 ?
[22:49] <daveake> Quark, Strangeness and Charm
[22:49] <gonzo_> started something now!
[22:50] Action: andrew_apex connects various cables together
[22:50] <gonzo_> I'm off to a hawkwind type festival in june
[22:50] <gonzo_> sonic rock solstace
[22:50] <gonzo_> looks like it could be interesting, and probably quite stoned!
[22:50] <daveake> :)
[22:51] <craag> Well that sounded weird..
[22:51] <gonzo_> higher than helium
[22:51] <fsphil-laptop> ah, they had an early version of the nyan cat: http://geordierussell.instone.net/Jukebox/Img/H/Hawkwind%20-%20In%20Search%20Of%20Space.jpg
[22:51] <andrew_apex> craag: that was 50% of RTTY...
[22:52] <andrew_apex> Right, that's normal sounding RTTY being sent
[22:52] <craag> What type of rtty?
[22:52] <andrew_apex> ooh 433.6
[22:52] <andrew_apex> craag: try 434.6
[22:53] <andrew_apex> no wait
[22:53] <andrew_apex> it is 433.6 :P
[22:53] <andrew_apex> that's 50 baud, 425 shift
[22:54] <andrew_apex> craag: what does it sound like on AM?
[22:54] <craag> Not like 2 tones...
[22:55] <fsphil-laptop> if it's anything like FM it'll sound like a low buzz
[22:55] <andrew_apex> craag: I'm sending a constant tone now
[22:55] <daveake> AM won't produce 2 tones
[22:55] <craag> Exactly like FM, but with adding background static
[22:56] <andrew_apex> craag: does this constant tone sound any different?
[22:56] <craag> It's got it as a carrier, but no audio as there are no sidebands I guess.
[22:56] <andrew_apex> yeah
[22:57] <craag> It's registering on the S-meter, but it's just static
[22:57] <craag> OUCH!
[22:57] <andrew_apex> I'm now txing on AM
[22:57] <craag> THAT was a tone.
[22:57] <andrew_apex> yeah :P
[22:57] <andrew_apex> this is on AM, so you shoudl get it fine
[22:58] <fsphil-laptop> how far apart are you two?
[22:58] <andrew_apex> 500 meters?
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[22:58] <fsphil-laptop> ah not too much
[22:58] <andrew_apex> (back to USB now)
[22:58] <craag> mm, no decode but it sounds like RTTY.
[22:59] <craag> Ok, thanks, it was worth a try!
[22:59] <andrew_apex> no problem :)
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[23:00] <craag> andrew_apex: Did you say the last bit was ssb?
[23:00] <andrew_apex> yup
[23:00] <andrew_apex> audio over SSB = RTTY
[23:01] <craag> ah, im getting mixed up, no worries.
[23:01] <Lunar_Lander> is this automatically so?
[23:01] <Lunar_Lander> or is tones over radio = RTTY?
[23:01] <andrew_apex> Digital levels over FM = Audio over SSB = RTTY
[23:01] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[23:02] <andrew_apex> so with NTX2s we stick digital levels into an FM transmitter
[23:02] <andrew_apex> then we receive getting audio out of SSB radios
[23:02] <fsphil-laptop> it's a nice hack :)
[23:04] <andrew_apex> I'm going to bed - night all :)
[23:04] <daveake> Indeed. It seems strange when you first read about it - encode as FM then decode as SSB, but there's method in the madness
[23:04] <fsphil-laptop> it's all about bandwidthz
[23:04] <craag> Right, so with the AM rx it keeps trying to use the RTTY as a carrier to tune to, hence the same clicking/buzz as with FM as it 'retunes' rapidly.
[23:04] <andrew_apex> ah, that makes sense
[23:05] <craag> For it to work, we need a stable carrier, (such as a BFO actually in the RX).
[23:05] <craag> Which makes it an SSB rx!
[23:05] <fsphil-laptop> there's got to be a cheap mixer IC for 434mhz
[23:05] <fsphil-laptop> for direct conversion
[23:06] <daveake> You would think
[23:06] <craag> Has anyone seen the thing about using TV tuners as SDRs?
[23:06] <fsphil-laptop> last one I seen went up to 200mhz
[23:06] <gonzo_> yep, it's aclled a Fun cube dongle
[23:06] <craag> They're meant to be able to do 64-1700 MHz....
[23:06] <fsphil-laptop> yea that's pretty neat craag
[23:07] <fsphil-laptop> the tv tuner one has a much higher sampling rate gonzo_
[23:07] <NigeyS> wtf is a FSK Superheterodyne Receiver ?!
[23:07] <craag> http://sdr.osmocom.org/trac/wiki/rtl-sdr
[23:08] <craag> ^^ That's an info page about the tv tuner sdr project. Nothing realtime yet due to the large bandwidth of data.
[23:08] <fsphil-laptop> 2.8 MS/s
[23:09] <craag> But if you could turn it down to 2.5KHz bandwidth, convert to PCM audio and pipe to dl-fldigi...
[23:09] <Lunar_Lander> so when i design my veroboard, I have to separate NTX2 and GPS as far as possible?
[23:09] <fsphil-laptop> you could capture all of 433-434mhz :)
[23:10] Action: SpeedEvil drops co-channel interference on fsphil.
[23:10] <Matt_soton> what i want to do is tap the output of the front end of those and send it into a ADC/FPGA combo
[23:10] <fsphil-laptop> those meddling kids!
[23:10] <gonzo_> ah I seen using tv rx dongle directly
[23:10] <Darkside> Matt_soton: its a similar frontend as to on the FCD
[23:10] Nick change: heathkid|2 -> heathkid
[23:10] <SpeedEvil> Matt_soton: Err - why?
[23:10] <Darkside> same problems at that frontend too
[23:10] <SpeedEvil> 2.8MS/S is _trivial_ to process on a modern PC
[23:10] <Darkside> Matt_soton: and the osmoSDR is doing just that
[23:10] <SpeedEvil> Even a really quite old one
[23:10] <Matt_soton> yea that elonics part?
[23:10] <SpeedEvil> You have a thousand clocks an instruction.
[23:11] <Matt_soton> shame you cant just get those
[23:11] <SpeedEvil> per sample
[23:11] <Darkside> Matt_soton: yes, the osmoSDR is what you just suggested
[23:11] <SpeedEvil> And this even omits MMX-like and multicore
[23:11] <Darkside> tuner + ADC + FPGA
[23:12] <Matt_soton> hadnt seen that before
[23:13] <Matt_soton> tbh i wouldnt really know what to do with the extra bandwidth atm
[23:13] <Matt_soton> im guessing this tv tuner 'research' is in part a cheap reciever
[23:13] <Darkside> yes
[23:13] <Darkside> i'm waiting for support for my dongles tuner, so i can do some performnce measurements
[23:14] <fsphil-laptop> I've a dvb-t dongle somewhere, must see if it's compatible
[23:14] <Darkside> its the ones that support DAB that you're looking for
[23:15] <fsphil-laptop> this one is quite old
[23:15] <Darkside> yeah then it wouldn't be supported
[23:15] <Darkside> its only a certain realtek chipset, the one that supports DAB
[23:15] <fsphil-laptop> actually it's right here and the case already broke opened...
[23:16] <Darkside> since apparently the IQ passthrough is for the DAB receiver software
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[23:16] <Darkside> which is, interestingly enough, done in software on the PC
[23:16] <NigeyS> ive got a couple of wintv dvb-t sticks here .. probably useless
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[23:18] <Darkside> ok time to head into uni
[23:18] <Darkside> bbl
[23:18] <Morseman_G0DJA> GN all
[23:18] <fsphil-laptop> nah, mine doesn't seem to have any realtek chips
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[23:19] <BrainDamage> I'm considering getting one myself, for that price I guess I can throw away some money
[23:19] <BrainDamage> I'm annoyed by the fact I have to make an impedance matcher circuit tough, all the circuits I have are 50Ohm
[23:20] <BrainDamage> plus pal connector is simply retarded
[23:20] <fsphil-laptop> yes. yes it is
[23:21] <Matt_soton> someone needs to design a 50ohm in 75ohm out filter/lna
[23:21] <Matt_soton> then we're all sorted
[23:21] <BrainDamage> you still have to replace the connector
[23:21] <reentry_llama> the pal connector is closer to 50 ohm impedance
[23:21] <BrainDamage> since pal is not 75 Ohm, and reflects some
[23:21] <Matt_soton> oh ok :\
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[23:22] <reentry_llama> (I'm working on LNA for the rtl-sdr which would fit in the footprint of the pal connector: https://github.com/loxodes/rtl-sdr-lna)
[23:22] <gonzo_> it's only a small missmatch, I wouldn't worry that much
[23:23] <SpeedEvil> Well...
[23:23] <SpeedEvil> The mismatch can cause really comedic issues.
[23:23] <SpeedEvil> I accidentally made a notch filter by using 50R cable to connect my TV yagi.
[23:23] Action: fsphil-laptop has an image of a llama in a space suit doing a space dive
[23:23] <Matt_soton> might as well get a 'proper' connector on there though, its only a £20 card
[23:23] <SpeedEvil> By wiggling the cable, I could filter out or enhance channels
[23:24] <gonzo_> rgr filters and mixers can get upser by mismatch
[23:24] <gonzo_> but gain stages are reasonably hardy
[23:24] <Matt_soton> TV broadcasting is such high power, who cares about a bit of reciever mismatch :P
[23:25] <gonzo_> in the 70's, amateurs used belling lee's for tx on 23cm
[23:25] <gonzo_> makes me shufdder to think of it though
[23:25] <BrainDamage> there's also usually a preamp next to the antenna, then signal gets distributed to various users
[23:26] <reentry_llama> what sort of filtering would be useful for an LNA board?
[23:26] <reentry_llama> since the tuner supports a crazy large frequency range
[23:27] <reentry_llama> just do a highpass at ~50 MHz?
[23:27] <Matt_soton> well if people put these LNAs/filters next to their antenna then it depends on the antenna
[23:27] <Matt_soton> but then you need 75ohm coax...
[23:28] <Matt_soton> some LC filter ~434MHz would be good for balloons reentry_llama
[23:28] <BrainDamage> yes, pretty much just dc blocking, if you want to add lowpassing @1.7GHz to avoid out-band blockers, but probably the circuit's parasitics would attenuate already
[23:28] <BrainDamage> yes, but optional
[23:28] <BrainDamage> one can always attach a filter separately
[23:28] <reentry_llama> (my lna board assumes 50 ohms at the antenna, then transforms it to 75 after the amplifier)
[23:28] <Matt_soton> do you have a datasheet for the mga-68263, google give snothing
[23:28] <gonzo_> lna and helical filter up front
[23:29] <reentry_llama> oh, that is a typo, one moment
[23:29] <reentry_llama> mga62563
[23:29] <reentry_llama> not sure what I was thinking
[23:29] <Matt_soton> ah :)
[23:30] <Matt_soton> is that matching circuit wideband?
[23:31] <reentry_llama> I've got s-parameters at the bottom
[23:31] <gonzo_> oooh nasty!
[23:31] <reentry_llama> it is ~-6dB across 100 Mhz to 1.5 GHz
[23:31] Nick change: daveake -> Alpaca_balloon
[23:31] <reentry_llama> usually lower
[23:32] <Matt_soton> the LNA seems to think it is matched to 50ohm across its bandwidth
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[23:33] <Matt_soton> so maybe a 75:50 transformer instead?
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[23:33] <reentry_llama> I am just planning on sticking a minimum loss pad at the output of the LNA
[23:34] <Matt_soton> i suppose if you add a 70cm filter on the front then you can match for a narrow bandwidth
[23:34] <Matt_soton> how expensive are the LNAs?
[23:34] <SpeedEvil> tens of pennies
[23:34] <reentry_llama> ~$3 for the chip. total bom cost is >$10
[23:34] <pjm__> whats the nf of that front end chip in the board?
[23:34] <Matt_soton> most of that being connectors?
[23:35] <pjm__> not yet looked at the datasheet
[23:35] <SpeedEvil> Oh - I was remembering the ones Laurenceb was using
[23:35] <Matt_soton> pjm__: 1dB
[23:35] <pjm__> thats already pretty damn good
[23:35] <Matt_soton> datasheet says 0.9dB and website says 1.1dB :\
[23:35] <pjm__> amazing
[23:35] <reentry_llama> I doubt I'll actually get that good of a NF on my board
[23:36] <pjm__> i'd have thought the tuner chip would have been 3 or 4 db min, but a db is impressive
[23:36] <Matt_soton> this isnt the tuner IC pjm__, its a discrete LNA IC
[23:36] <pjm__> ah i meant the tuner front end ;-)
[23:37] <Matt_soton> elonics wont tell you unless you promise not to tell anyone else (probably)
[23:37] <pjm__> i'd use one of them g4ddk cheapo lna boards, they are about a tenner
[23:38] <pjm__> i shud have my dvb-t usb's in a day or so , then i can have a play
[23:38] <Matt_soton> where are people getting these boards from btw?
[23:38] <pjm__> mine were from cosycave
[23:39] <pjm__> https://www.cosycave.co.uk/product.php?id_product=104
[23:39] <Matt_soton> thanks
[23:39] <pjm__> cheapest place i found so far, and acceptable shipping costs
[23:40] <pjm__> seems the usb tuner comes with some associated crap, but its still cheap
[23:40] <Matt_soton> anyone found an internal shot of those?
[23:42] <pjm__> http://sdr.osmocom.org/trac/wiki/rtl-sdr
[23:42] <fsphil-laptop> hehe, £8
[23:42] <Matt_soton> lol i just found that
[23:42] <fsphil-laptop> how's that even possible
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[23:47] <Matt_soton> anyone know of low power small fpgas btw?
[23:48] <r2x0t> Altera CPLDs are ok
[23:48] <r2x0t> if you don't need big one
[23:48] <r2x0t> Cyclone series may be more hungry, but you can optimize it down
[23:48] <r2x0t> depends on what is low power
[23:48] <Matt_soton> im also thinking small, low pin count (64)
[23:49] <r2x0t> also check some Actel ones
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[23:50] <r2x0t> Altera smallest ones are 100pin
[23:50] <Matt_soton> yea maybe a cpld instead
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[23:50] <r2x0t> TQFP
[23:50] <Matt_soton> yea
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[23:52] <r2x0t> I'm currently working on project with 144pin Cyclone2 FPGA
[23:52] <Matt_soton> yea that is just a bit of an overkill really
[23:52] <r2x0t> it's small and ok to solder even by hand... just takes some time
[23:52] <Matt_soton> meh soldering, done 0.4mm pitch fine
[23:52] <r2x0t> but yeah, CPLDs are way to go if you don't need big one
[23:53] <BrainDamage> drag soldering
[23:53] <Matt_soton> also there was no solder resist on that board
[23:53] <r2x0t> Actel chips are cheaper
[23:53] <r2x0t> but development SW sucks
[23:54] <r2x0t> it's huge mess, many different sw bundled together
[23:54] <r2x0t> from different vendors
[23:55] <Matt_soton> i didnt appriciate how small a cpld could be
[23:55] <Matt_soton> 80 LE...
[23:55] <r2x0t> http://www.altera.com/devices/cpld/max2/overview/mx2-overview.html
[23:56] <r2x0t> but smallest is still 100 pin
[23:56] <r2x0t> unless you want to use BGA :)
[23:56] <Matt_soton> nope
[23:57] <Lunar_Lander> btw
[23:57] <Lunar_Lander> my friend says that we don't need decoupling Caps because the current is even from a battery
[23:57] <Lunar_Lander> what should I say?
[23:57] <Matt_soton> tell him hes wrong :P
[23:58] <r2x0t> Matt_soton: there is some nice stuff like this: http://www.cesys.com/produkte/kategorie/fpga-karten-spartan/produkt/efm-01/
[23:58] <r2x0t> but expensive
[23:58] <Matt_soton> although you dont need them across the input connector, but thats probably about it
[23:59] <Matt_soton> http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=2076463&MER=baynote-2076463-pr better priced
[23:59] <Matt_soton> im using the DE0 (not nano) atm for sometihng else
[23:59] <r2x0t> yeah
[23:59] <Lunar_Lander> the input connector is where the battery goes to?
[23:59] <r2x0t> http://uk.farnell.com/digilent/210-047-c2/board-dev-cpld-c-mod-40dip/dp/2061840?in_merch=New%20Products&in_merch=Featured%20New%20Products&MER=i-9b10-00002068
[23:59] <r2x0t> what about this CPLD
[23:59] <Matt_soton> Lunar_Lander: yea
[23:59] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[00:00] --- Thu Mar 22 2012