highaltitude.log.20120320

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[01:09] <schofieldau> Hey all
[01:13] <reentry_llama> y'all might be interested in this: http://sdr.osmocom.org/trac/wiki/rtl-sdr
[01:14] <reentry_llama> it looks like some consumer USB TV tuners use the same tuner as the FUNcube
[01:14] <Randomskk> sadly you are a day too late :P
[01:14] <Randomskk> (it was posted yesterday)
[01:15] <reentry_llama> blast, I greped my logs :(
[01:15] <schofieldau> relevant to my interests
[01:15] <reentry_llama> I'll go back to lurking then :D
[01:18] <reentry_llama> it would be fun to build an LNA for that, but I'm guessing that is expecting 75 ohms input impedance
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[01:18] <reentry_llama> at least I hope it would, since I think that uses an F connector
[01:18] <Randomskk> indeed
[01:19] <schofieldau> are there any guides about for DIY payload aerials?
[01:20] <Randomskk> hmm yes, but I wonder where
[01:20] <Randomskk> mostly people just use quarter wave whips with groundplanes
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[01:21] <Randomskk> which basically is a roughly 16cm long driven element connected to your unbalanced coax's centre conductor and four ~16cm long ground wires connected to the shield sticking out at something like right angles to make the ground plane
[01:21] <Randomskk> in theory it's not really 16cm and the ground radials should be at like 45 degrees or something silly
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[01:22] <schofieldau> so is it really precise like "use a protractor to measure the angle and a ruler to measure the wire because 1 degree/1 ml will mean 50% decrease in signal"?
[01:22] <Randomskk> no
[01:22] <schofieldau> okay
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[01:23] <Randomskk> you can get away with a lot
[01:23] <Randomskk> make sure you don't have the radials just droop around the driven element, that'd be bad
[01:23] <Randomskk> make sure the driven element is about 16cm or 17cm or so and the radials are at least that long
[01:23] <Randomskk> and you should really be okay
[01:23] <Randomskk> uhm, if you search for "quarter wave whip" you'll probably find a lot of better/more precise examples
[01:23] <Randomskk> surprisingly I can't find anything on the wiki
[01:23] <schofieldau> thanks :)
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[01:54] <NigelMoby> that sdr looks neat, any good without to much hardware hacking though?
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[02:14] <Darkside> NigelMoby: what?
[02:14] <Darkside> oh, the sdr thing
[02:14] <NigelMoby> yup
[02:15] <NigelMoby> wondering way hacking would be required on the hardware side.
[02:15] <NigelMoby> what*
[02:16] <reentry_llama> the datasheet for the tuner (E4000) is under an NDA, so I don't think it is known what sort of sensitivity it has
[02:16] <Darkside> not all of them have the same tuner
[02:16] <NigelMoby> bah typical :(
[02:16] <Darkside> my one has a FC0012
[02:16] <Darkside> and again, its all NDA'd
[02:16] <Darkside> same as the tuner in the funcube dongle
[02:17] <NigelMoby> crazy :/
[02:17] <Darkside> so yeah, all figurs are not available, which is a pain
[02:17] <reentry_llama> but the funcube has an LNA, and the $20 ezcap doesn't appear to have one (from the picture)
[02:17] <Darkside> reentry_llama: not hard to add externally
[02:17] <Darkside> same with filtering, as you'll need it
[02:18] <NigelMoby> hm true
[02:18] <reentry_llama> yeah, it shouldn't be too hard. it will just be a pain to work with 75 ohm impedance :D
[02:18] <Darkside> convert to 50 ohm asap
[02:18] <Darkside> tbh its not that bad
[02:18] <Darkside> its a SWR of 1.5:1
[02:18] <Darkside> so just put some 50 ohm coax on there and stop worrying :P
[02:18] <NigelMoby> lol
[02:19] <BrainDamage> and no preamp
[02:19] <reentry_llama> just pretend it is 50 ohms then stick a minimum loss pad after the LNA :D
[02:19] <NigelMoby> might grab 1, see if I get lucky with the tuner chip
[02:19] <BrainDamage> and no filtering
[02:19] <BrainDamage> might as well throw a resistor there
[02:19] <schofieldau> I'm stalking you all on github btw
[02:20] <NigelMoby> lol feel free
[02:20] <Darkside> lol schofieldau
[02:20] <Darkside> none of my code is on github :P
[02:20] <schofieldau> Darkside: what do you use
[02:20] <NigelMoby> decking thing won't let me log in to mine.
[02:20] <Darkside> in fact, most of my code isn't online
[02:20] <schofieldau> ah okay
[02:20] <NigelMoby> fecking
[02:20] <Darkside> http://code.google.com/p/project-horus/
[02:20] <Darkside> though theres a fair bit of work there
[02:21] <Darkside> thats mostly hardware designs though
[02:21] <NigelMoby> right, sleep, Nn dudes :)
[02:21] <Darkside> the only software there is the trackuino fork, which isn't any use to you
[02:22] <Darkside> schofieldau: got your arduino stuff yet?
[02:23] <schofieldau> nope not yet
[02:23] <schofieldau> started my code though
[02:23] <schofieldau> getting my head around git at the moment I'll upload it this afternoon
[02:24] <schofieldau> actually
[02:24] <schofieldau> will do so now
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[02:27] <schofieldau> https://github.com/ajhutton/TinyTracker
[02:28] <schofieldau> WIP
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[02:30] <schofieldau> also it's not quite "tiny" yet :P
[02:31] <Darkside> and it won't be tiny :P
[02:31] <Darkside> also don't use software serial
[02:31] <Darkside> for anything
[02:32] <schofieldau> okay
[02:32] <Darkside> the arduino has hardware serial for a reason, use it
[02:32] <Darkside> it just means you need to disconnect the GPS to be able to program the AVR
[02:33] <schofieldau> yep
[02:33] <schofieldau> that's why I wanted to use software
[02:33] <Darkside> don't use it though
[02:33] <schofieldau> but if it's not as reliable I"ll change it
[02:33] <schofieldau> brb lunch
[02:33] <Darkside> software serial is shit
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[06:54] <navrac> goodnight all
[06:55] <Upu> morning navrac
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[07:23] <eroomde> morning navrac and upu
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[07:24] <jcoxon> morning eroomde, navrac and upu
[07:24] <Darkside> hey all
[07:24] <Darkside> my SDR has ground loop issues :(
[07:24] <Darkside> makes me sad
[07:25] <zyp> then fix them, and that'll make you happy again
[07:25] <Darkside> yeah, i'm thinking my filterint was a bit excessive
[07:25] <eroomde> confucios say ^
[07:25] <Darkside> common mode chokes, shitloads of decoupling
[07:26] <eroomde> hypothesis for ground loop cause?
[07:26] <Darkside> something to do with the usb side
[07:27] <Darkside> i have mroe tests to do
[07:27] <Darkside> today i just confirmed that it wasn't a dead mixer
[07:27] <Darkside> by powering the RF side from a separate 5v supply
[07:27] <eroomde> lol
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[07:27] <eroomde> i had s conversation yesterday with my boss
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[07:27] <eroomde> who wretches at usb
[07:28] <eroomde> specificslly cos of grounding issues
[07:28] <Darkside> my power and ground rails are connected into the circuit via inductors
[07:28] <Darkside> and the shield is not connected
[07:28] <eroomde> its all ethernet and gslvsnic isolation via dc dc converters on the data aquisition bits now
[07:28] <Darkside> yeeeeeeah... i'm starting to wish i put in galvanic isolation on the audio lines
[07:28] <eroomde> worth it
[07:29] <Darkside> though its audio in only
[07:29] <Darkside> and it goes via another amplifier
[07:29] <eroomde> the only io on hedgehog is serial smd thats galvanically idolated
[07:29] <Darkside> anyway, i have more debuggin gto do
[07:29] <eroomde> good luck
[07:30] <Darkside> not now tho
[07:30] <Darkside> its 6pm
[07:30] <Darkside> but tomorow, ugh
[07:30] <Darkside> annoying, as the mixer and usb audio chip work fine separately
[07:31] <Darkside> my LO works fine! :P
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[07:31] <Darkside> i'm very close to scrapping the currenty mixer and putting a softrock clone in there
[07:31] <Darkside> since that seems to work so damn well anyway
[07:32] <Darkside> reduces my upper frequency range to about 50MHz though, which is a bit sad
[07:33] <Darkside> but it makes up for it in sensitivity, and the parts cost for the mixer parts is about the same as the quadrature demodulator i'm using currently
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[08:28] <Hix> http://www.pcb-soldering.co.uk/ pretty useful for suppllies and spares
[08:52] <Hix> UpuWork, you about?
[08:53] <UpuWork> no
[08:53] <UpuWork> doh
[08:53] <UpuWork> morning
[08:55] <Hix> :)
[08:55] <Hix> look what I found
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[08:55] <Hix> http://www.mikroe.com/eng/downloads/get/144/easygsm-gprs_schematic_v100.pdf
[08:56] <Hix> and
[08:56] <Hix> http://www.mcustore.com/arm-multimedia-boards/435-easygsm-gprs-mc55-board.html
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[09:00] <UpuWork> looks simple
[09:01] <UpuWork> I'll have a shot at that in the next week or so
[09:01] <Hix> keep me posted - have you got an etcher then?
[09:02] <Hix> or boarding it
[09:02] <Hix> oh doh, DF12 stops breadboards :/ hence my initial searching...
[09:05] <UpuWork> no I use Seeed
[09:06] <UpuWork> take a while but are very cheap
[09:06] <Hix> ah ok. are you going to get 10 done then? seems to be their min order
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[09:07] <UpuWork> why not they are only $1 each
[09:08] <Hix> wanna double it to 20 'ill split with you?
[09:08] <UpuWork> well order 10
[09:08] <UpuWork> and check they work
[09:08] <Hix> MC55 should be here tomorrow - i'll fwd 2 up
[09:08] <Hix> yeah spose
[09:09] <UpuWork> invariably Rev1 boards don't work :)
[09:09] <Hix> measure twice, cut once ;p
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[09:10] <UpuWork> file down the resulting mess
[09:10] <daveake> swap tx and rx
[09:10] <Hix> collect magic smoke and put it in a jar
[09:11] <Hix> daveake, got some MC55 boards for £15 last night GSM GPRS :)
[09:11] <daveake> yeah I saw. nice
[09:12] <Hix> ah couldn't remember of you were on last night
[09:12] <daveake> I was on, but mostly asleep :)
[09:14] <Hix> :)
[09:15] <Hix> everything sorted out for Sat launch?
[09:15] <UpuWork> well
[09:15] <UpuWork> everything but the weather
[09:17] <Hix> :) haven't seen forecast but today and tyesterday both lovely
[09:17] <daveake> if only "lovely" was enough :p
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[09:19] <daveake> I see that someone else has a HAB NOTAM in for Saturday, SE of Evesham
[09:19] <Hix> how do you check notams?
[09:19] <daveake> I use notaminfo.com
[09:19] <number10> isnt that the university one that got cancelled last sunday
[09:20] <daveake> Probably - is that where they were going to launch from?
[09:20] <daveake> Guess it is. They have sat and un in there
[09:20] <daveake> sun
[09:21] <number10> I think it was about there - cant find email now
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[09:21] <number10> they were on .650 if I remember
[09:22] <daveake> yes
[09:24] <Hix> ha - very informative "Unidentified airfield: Fuel availability not available" reminds me of them ficticious logs that did the rounds a few years back
[09:24] <daveake> OK, found the email, yes that is the site
[09:24] <Hix> "Sometuing loose in cockpit" remedy:something tightened in cockpit
[09:25] <zyp> oh, I remember those :)
[09:25] <Hix> LH engine sounds funny remedy: LH engine told to concentrate oin it's job and stop joking around
[09:28] <Hix> P: Number 3 engine missing.
[09:28] <Hix> S: Engine found on right wing after brief search.
[09:37] <griffonbot> Received email: Neil Baker "Re: [UKHAS] Re: CUSF: Wombat Test Flight"
[09:39] <UpuWork> hahaha : http://i.imgur.com/o1gJY.jpg
[09:40] <UpuWork> not going to loose that in a hurry
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[09:46] <daveake> :)
[09:46] <daveake> damn wrong box ....
[09:47] <Hix> is that a ublox board UpuWork ?
[09:47] <UpuWork> yeah
[09:47] <UpuWork> its NigeyS's design uses a ATMega644
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[09:48] <Hix> that explains why it's yellow then and not pink :)
[09:48] <Hix> I was going to query that
[09:48] <UpuWork> he wanted yellow
[09:48] <UpuWork> he got it
[09:51] <Hix> do you guys use solder paste for smt stuff
[09:51] <Hix> if so do you get a laser cut template made?
[09:57] <zyp> in my case yes and yes
[09:58] <zyp> so far I've used stencils from ohara
[09:58] <zyp> http://www.ohararp.com/Stencils.html
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[10:01] <UpuWork> I solder it by hand generally
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[10:02] <schofieldau> back. so much for brb :P
[10:04] <Hix> can you do 0.5mm pitch by hand easily enough UpuWork?
[10:04] <Hix> thinking that DF12 connector looks weeny 15.5mm for 50 pins
[10:04] <UpuWork> Sure
[10:05] <UpuWork> just drag the iron over it
[10:06] <Hix> just rely on the solder resist and if there is a bridge, wick it?
[10:10] <eroomde> have a flux pen handy
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[10:11] <eroomde> and wet the IC legs with it
[10:11] <eroomde> Hix: i definitely second zyps stencil recommendation
[10:12] <eroomde> you can see a little pictorial of how i do pasting and stencilling for my most recent flight computer here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/eroomde/sets/72157629174453806/
[10:13] <UpuWork> its alot neater
[10:13] <UpuWork> if you have the oven
[10:14] <eroomde> upvote ^
[10:14] <gonzo_> Hix, I've not got hold of the guy with the MC35 yet.
[10:15] <Hix> not aproblem gonzo_ I've ordered 10 MC55 last night too. Got them for £15 each
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[10:16] <Hix> Upu is going to do a breakout board
[10:16] <Hix> eroomde, that looks incredibly tidy, can't go the oven route though.
[10:16] <eroomde> wynot?
[10:17] <Hix> how do you get your stencils done
[10:17] <eroomde> pcbpool were offering free laser cut stainless stencils with their prototyping service
[10:17] <eroomde> but various places will do them
[10:17] <gonzo_> ah, interesting.
[10:17] <Hix> room for more stuff is not really going to go down well
[10:17] <eroomde> pcbtrain for example are another uk based one
[10:18] <eroomde> pcbpool is worth considering. The 5 PCBS for the hedgehog, with 5mil spacing and 12mil drilling, and the laser cut stencils for both sides, silkscreen both sides, cost £90 for a 5 day service
[10:18] <Hix> hmm - what are their prices like for boards - obviously they are going to be momre than seeed
[10:18] <eroomde> which isn't too bad, I don't think
[10:19] <eroomde> especially considering the geological shipping timescales of seeeeeed
[10:19] <Hix> assume it's cheaper for slower turnaround
[10:19] <Hix> uk base cos i mean
[10:19] <eroomde> they also do complex routing (i.e. non rectagular boards) at no extra cost
[10:19] <Hix> i'll look em up
[10:20] <eroomde> they will also accept eagle files natively
[10:20] <eroomde> if you don't want to mess around with generating gerbers
[10:20] <eroomde> http://www.pcb-pool.com/ppus/order_productconfiguration_js.html
[10:20] <Hix> I'm used to spitting out various CAd files :) I've had just a little practice in that realm ;p
[10:21] <zyp> I prefer generating gerbers myself, rather than risk other people messing it up :p
[10:21] <eroomde> http://www.pcb-pool.com/ppuk/order_productconfiguration_js.html
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[10:21] <eroomde> sorry you want this uk version ^
[10:21] <eroomde> zyp: oh me too, totally
[10:21] <eroomde> i'm much happier that way
[10:21] <eroomde> but some people aren't
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[10:22] <zyp> I'm afraid people will mess up which layers goes where
[10:22] <eroomde> i rate gold phoenix v highly though compared to all the over services
[10:22] <zyp> or rather which I actually want on the board
[10:22] <eroomde> for price and turnaround time and options
[10:22] <eroomde> this is pretty amazing: http://www.goldphoenixpcb.com/singlepage.php?tg=specialprice
[10:22] <zyp> so I generate the gerbers myself and inspect them thoroughly before submitting them
[10:22] <eroomde> especially their 4 and 6 layer prices
[10:24] <eroomde> Hix: seeed are great but there's also mileage in veroboard first
[10:25] <eroomde> i quite like doing designs on veroboard if it's a new thing. easy to test stuff quickly and mess around with configurations and code beofre setting the design in stone with a pcb
[10:25] <eroomde> i'm putting together a veroboard circuit at the moment which is meant to be a sensitive pressure and temperature package for use inside a balloon, to investigate floating
[10:27] <eroomde> it's got a couple if internal temperature sensors (one up a 1m stick inside the balloon) and 1 external, external pressure and differencial pressure between the inside and outside of the balloon
[10:27] <Hix> I've got some breadboards for scheming stuff out
[10:27] <eroomde> thankfully lots of the bits like instrumentation amplifiers are all available as DIP packages so it makes it quite easy
[10:27] <Hix> are you talking veroboards for semi permanent testing
[10:28] <eroomde> yeah - verboards can be flight hardware
[10:28] <eroomde> which i wouldn't do with breadboard
[10:29] <eroomde> there's a lot to be said for veroboards over pcbs infact, especially with surface mount stuff which isn't so robust to thermal cycling
[10:29] <eroomde> eg on a hab flight
[10:29] <eroomde> because through hole components can cope with differential expansion and constraction between themselves and the pcb - they have flexible legs
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[10:30] <Hix> truwe
[10:30] <eroomde> but something like a surface mount resistor is much stiffer and is more stiffly attached to the pcb, yet they have different thermal expansion coefficients so it's not been unknown for smd components to ping off the boards at temp extremes
[10:30] <Hix> true even
[10:30] <eroomde> i've never seen it happen in hab mind
[10:31] <Hix> sod's law - if it can it will
[10:31] <eroomde> but i think if you had one workhorse flight computer than did many flights, it's soemthing you might want to look at
[10:31] <Hix> tbh the pcb queries are for multiple ideas so it's good to know
[10:32] <Hix> I'm looking at something pretty small so smd would probably be the only option
[10:32] <eroomde> yeah
[10:32] <Hix> but it wont have thermal issues, just vibration
[10:32] <eroomde> racing car?
[10:32] <Hix> in which case it'd probably be in epoxy od similar
[10:33] <gonzo_> LOX rockets?!
[10:33] <Hix> no animal
[10:33] <eroomde> :)
[10:34] <Hix> friend is an ecologist and was asking me about what i was learningnabout from HAB and if she could pinch some of the tech
[10:34] <gonzo_> not loading live things into rockets?
[10:34] <Hix> :D mokey in space
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[10:34] <gonzo_> (Actually we put a mouse in one, it was stuffed. Well if it hadn't have been, it would be at eventually!)
[10:35] <eroomde> Hix: interesting
[10:35] <eroomde> there's a lot of scope for making really low power radio trackers and so on
[10:35] <Hix> there's a few "people" i've worked with in the past who I'd like ot load into a rocket - with no chute
[10:36] <Hix> yeah, things like badger roaming patters to save culling etc
[10:36] <Hix> badger-tracker
[10:36] <eroomde> interesting
[10:36] <eroomde> i'll lease you the copywrite on badger tracker if you want :p
[10:36] <eroomde> my fees are very reasonable
[10:36] <Hix> rather her than me trying to collar a badger though
[10:37] <eroomde> http://www.flickr.com/photos/eroomde/2501001643/in/set-72157605115928028
[10:37] <Hix> i've incorporated it so I'll buy your Uk badger tracker company oit :p
[10:37] <navrac_> give me 2 minutes and i'll sell you badgertracker.com - I think beavertracker has probably already gone
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[10:37] <Hix> HA
[10:37] <eroomde> not sure in want to know :)
[10:37] <eroomde> blimey may 2008
[10:37] <eroomde> time flies
[10:37] <gonzo_> wonder if HAB type telem, but with long power downs would work? Rabge would be poor, but if you flew the RX, that would give range
[10:38] <Hix> beaverheaven has gone - i bough tit for 4.99 :D
[10:38] <eroomde> i'd be inclined to try something like a v low poer gps logger
[10:38] <eroomde> that sent a text or several every 2 days
[10:38] <Hix> gps in eco mode with daily upload from kml via gprs would be cool
[10:39] <navrac_> its the low power gps that is the issue. You could pump out bursts of 50mW with very little overhead
[10:39] <eroomde> yeah
[10:39] <eroomde> the 1.8V ublox max-6 will give you 1s fixes for 22mW
[10:39] <navrac_> I've yet to se a ublox match the claimed gps current in powersave mode
[10:39] <navrac_> so it says
[10:39] <eroomde> interesting
[10:40] <gonzo_> you would only need to opwer up a few times a day though wouldn't you
[10:40] <daveake> navrac_ Is that because you have an active aerial and they're assuming passive?
[10:40] <navrac_> no that was a passive aerial
[10:40] <eroomde> sorry if this is an insulting question, but just for thoroughness you were using a passive antenna and so on?
[10:40] <daveake> ok I'll go back to sleep then :)
[10:40] <navrac_> it was upu's board
[10:41] <daveake> ok
[10:41] <navrac_> in the datasheet istr that it said 12-17mA
[10:41] <navrac_> but in the small print it said - 'with all satellites visible' which unless the world is flat is going to be tricky...
[10:42] <daveake> lol
[10:43] <navrac_> but to be honest I cant remember how much I got the max6 down to as I focussed on the whole board consumption in the end and how much was the rfm22b is open to question - and i lew the mA range on my meter
[10:43] <navrac_> does anyone have a measured figure for the ublox in powersave mode?
[10:45] <Hix> navrac, " which unless the world is flat is going to be tricky..."
[10:45] <eroomde> i lew?
[10:45] <Hix> they havent fooled you into the spherical theory have they
[10:46] <gonzo_> that's a load of balls!
[10:46] <Hix> very good
[10:46] <Hix> tbh the argument has been a-round for ages
[10:47] <gonzo_> we are going off at a tangent now
[10:49] <Hix> agreed orbiting the suject
[10:51] <Elwell> oh this old story circulating again?
[10:52] <Hix> itsd loomed over the horizon, unfortunately
[10:53] <daveake> Another tangent ... have been adding to my in-car s/w - http://www.daveakerman.com/?page_id=375
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[10:55] <x-f> keep rolling
[10:57] <Hix> daveake, cool
[10:58] <daveake> Since then I've added a button to load up spacenear
[10:58] <daveake> But usually that's done on a tablet, not the pc
[10:58] <Hix> spacenear kept crashing on my ipad with both safari and dolphin at the weekend
[10:59] <daveake> Julie has a Samsun Tab 10.1 and that's been fine. The map is slow to load when mobile though
[10:59] <eroomde> we had a similar in-car thing once on fergus's eeepc
[10:59] <eroomde> http://www.cusf.co.uk/images/tracker.png
[11:00] <eroomde> that ran the real time predictor locally too
[11:00] <daveake> nice
[11:01] <eroomde> but this was all before distributed listener days and i think what we have now is a lot better
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[11:01] <daveake> Yes, the distributed listener system is great
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[11:07] <Hix> good program on R4 now about Scott and getting back into space
[11:12] <eroomde> scott?
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[11:12] <eroomde> oh right
[11:12] <eroomde> listening
[11:21] <Hix> ha your ears pricking up eroomde ?
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[11:29] <gonzo__> whats it called? I'll listen later
[11:29] <daveake> "Scott's Legacy"
[11:29] <gonzo__> rgr ta
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[11:32] <Hix> gonzo_, http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01dhrmj
[11:32] <Elwell> heh. incar fl-digi? nice
[11:33] <Hix> more launches in cornwall i reckon - aren't they trialling 4G there now
[11:38] <eroomde> in cornwall?
[11:38] <cuddykid> I wish if they would have the 4G auction now..
[11:38] <cuddykid> yep, they're trialling 4G in cornwall
[11:38] <gonzo_> ta hix, it's downloading now
[11:41] <griffonbot> @vk5gr: Watch Project Horus - High Altitude Balloon Launch - Flight Horus 22 on Vimeo! http://t.co/10xEntXc #ProjectHorus [http://twitter.com/vk5gr/status/182069392551583746]
[11:42] <cuddykid> can't wait for when 4G really takes over - no more landline internet - incredible internet wherever!
[11:43] <Hix> gonzo_, nps
[11:43] <gonzo_> such a waste of a finite resourse
[11:43] <Hix> 4g is going to be the difference between 28.8 dial up and always on broadband
[11:44] <SpeedEvil> Bollocks.
[11:44] <SpeedEvil> It's a shared resource.
[11:44] <SpeedEvil> You can't just move everyone onto it.
[11:45] <gonzo_> though it's a better use than the wastes acres of spectrum used by TV
[11:45] <Hix> not everyone will move onto it though
[11:46] <gonzo_> though most people's use of the internet is equally moronic to the run of the mill tv content
[11:46] <SpeedEvil> Not mine!
[11:46] Action: SpeedEvil goes to look at pictures of cats.
[11:46] <gonzo_> I would put this group as a cut above the norm
[11:47] <gonzo_> when I used to watch the VSAT feeds, it was 90% dodgy porn
[11:47] <SpeedEvil> Could be worse. At least that's a second d.
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[11:48] <gonzo_> I though people were joking when they said that was the case!
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[11:54] <Lunar_LanderU> hello
[11:54] <Hix> Hi Lunar_LanderU
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[11:55] <Lunar_LanderU> hi Hix
[12:01] <kokey> 3G is as fast as most people's land line broadband, theoretically
[12:01] <kokey> you can stream HD video over it
[12:01] <kokey> however, in reality, the networks won't give you that kind of throughput economically
[12:01] <cuddykid> problem with 3G is the ping (if your not in a v good reception area)
[12:01] <kokey> the ping?
[12:02] <cuddykid> yeah - most of the time its >> 100ms
[12:02] <r2x0t> yes, even with good signal near BTS, you get 200-300ms minimum
[12:02] <oh7lzb> The round-trip-time and especially the jitter are absolutely horrible on 3G
[12:02] <oh7lzb> really, really annoying if you're doing interactive work
[12:02] <kokey> still, doesn't affect HD streaming, the acks can be many seconds behind
[12:02] <oh7lzb> or if you need to do voice over IP while someone around is doing bulk data transfer
[12:03] <kokey> it's about capacity really, and the cost
[12:03] <oh7lzb> The carriers are of course happy if they can ruin Skype and other voice over IP stuff and force you to continue paying $$/minute
[12:03] <eroomde> some ipad review i read said they were getting ping round trips of 60ms with the 4g
[12:03] <eroomde> which isn't too bad for mobile data
[12:04] <cuddykid> I have to say here on 3's 3G I get ping of around 70ms
[12:04] <oh7lzb> how about jitter?
[12:04] <r2x0t> LTE is much better, ping ~40ms, 70MBit/10Mbit speeds
[12:04] <eroomde> oh7lzb: it didn't say, and i haven't testing it myself
[12:04] <kokey> I've used 3G on very uncongested networks
[12:04] <kokey> and the latency is fine
[12:04] <Darkside> mm LTE started up here recently
[12:04] <kokey> 4G would be the same, if now one else is using it
[12:04] <Darkside> people have been getting 80/20mbit connections with 30ms ping times
[12:05] <Darkside> and even a few months on, people are still getting high speeds
[12:05] <r2x0t> but LTE is worthless if operators continue with current model of pricing and FUP
[12:05] <oh7lzb> Darkside: At the same time?
[12:05] <Darkside> eh?
[12:05] <eroomde> i almost tested in it central london on sunday (reasoning that was likely to have coverage) but my mobile sim wanted money
[12:05] <kokey> it's about congestion, cell density, etc.
[12:05] <r2x0t> onyl difference will be you download you entire monthly limit in mere minutes :)
[12:05] <Darkside> yeah in australian we have limits :P
[12:05] <Darkside> australia*
[12:05] <Darkside> and the cost is enough to ward off every man and his dog getting on LTE
[12:05] <cuddykid> three doesn't here :D
[12:06] <cuddykid> three are good from my couple of months experience
[12:06] <Darkside> seriously, the UKs 3g coverage is shit :P
[12:06] <Darkside> from what i could tell when i was over there
[12:06] <Darkside> at least we have almost blanket 3g coverage here in australia
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[12:06] <cuddykid> I basically constantly have a tethering hotspot going off my phone
[12:06] <Darkside> in the populated areas of course
[12:06] <kokey> what 4G will give us, is two things, one is it will make network operators upgrade infrastructure and the other is it will increase the expectations from customers as to what speed is reasonable
[12:07] <Hix> oooh I'm eligible for fibre tomorrow :D
[12:07] <kokey> Darkside: yeah, it's not just shit, in the cities where the coverage is half decent the throughput is nothing special
[12:07] <SpeedEvil> kokey: This does not mean available quota goes up much
[12:07] <SpeedEvil> Bits/Hz
[12:07] <Darkside> mm i got a 3 sim when i arrived at heathrow
[12:07] <Darkside> then that dropped out when i got on the train
[12:07] <eroomde> i just want to strip 26AWG ptfe wire
[12:07] <Darkside> so i got an o2 sim when i got to bath
[12:07] <eroomde> http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/miscellaneous/2508323922/
[12:07] <kokey> SpeedEvil: yeah, though you could deal with that with smaller cells
[12:07] <eroomde> why you so expensive. why?
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[12:08] <kokey> 3G in spain was great when most people weren't using it
[12:08] <Hix> christ
[12:08] <kokey> the Spanish are one of the more unconnected people in Europe, so they had 3G when a third of their population never used the internet ever
[12:09] <kokey> I could work over ssh on a train over 3G and not even notice much latency
[12:09] <jibbily> when i had to use 3G as my main connection, i had to SSH tunnel to avoid the transparent HTTP proxy which cut off downloads after a few megs
[12:10] <kokey> yeah a lot of the transparent proxies they sold to 3G networks were quite dodgy
[12:11] <oh7lzb> O2 UK runs (ran?) one which "optimized" javascript and other files
[12:12] <oh7lzb> ... and it promptly broke my web site
[12:13] <oh7lzb> http://blog.aprs.fi/2010/07/o2-uk-mobile-users-your-operator-is.html
[12:24] <eroomde> i think i might give giffgaff a go for my ipad
[12:24] <eroomde> £5 for 500mb/month
[12:25] <eroomde> given most of the time i have wifi
[12:25] <eroomde> the tmobile thing i have is £2 for a day
[12:25] <eroomde> which means if i want to use wireless for more than 2 times on 2 days, giffgaff is cheaper
[12:26] <daveake> Yep ... T-Mobile for very occassional use, say in a chase car :-), but GiffGaff is better for much more than that
[12:27] <eroomde> yeah
[12:28] <eroomde> i will probably switch to them for my phone too
[12:28] <eroomde> that'd be £15/mo for phone and ipad, versus currently £35 for phone and £2/day for ipad
[12:28] <daveake> I have a SIM-only deal with Tesco (also O2)
[12:29] <daveake> I have an automatic monthly topup of £10 (but as it's automatic they discount 10%, so that costs £9)
[12:29] <eroomde> oh really?
[12:29] <eroomde> what does that get you?
[12:29] <eroomde> giffgaff are 250 free mines (i use maybe 5), unlimited texts and data
[12:29] <daveake> First you get £20 of calls/texts for the month
[12:30] <daveake> Dunno how many mins that is as I never use that much
[12:30] <eroomde> that's about the same assuming 10p/min
[12:30] <eroomde> well, for just calls anyway
[12:30] <daveake> Out of the £10, £7.50 goes on a 1GB internet bundle
[12:30] <Hix> Giff Gaff seem very good with their goody bags
[12:30] <Hix> I'm going to use for my launches
[12:30] <Hix> and other projects
[12:30] <Hix> credit each time i register a sim too :)
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[12:30] <Hix> what library would be the best to use for the Siemens MC55 so I can issue AT commands
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[12:30] <Hix> to send SMS and possibly emails
[12:31] <Hix> whoa!!!
[12:31] <daveake> So basically it's £9/month for as much as I can eat, with £2.50 left over for say use abroad
[12:31] <daveake> Hiz - librray? It's easy peasy :)
[12:31] <eroomde> that's not bad
[12:31] <daveake> Yeah, works for me
[12:32] <Hix> daveake, not when you have the coding knowledge of a squid its not :p
[12:32] <daveake> :)
[12:32] <daveake> I can send you some simple code. Just remember to change the phone number :)
[12:33] <Hix> course
[12:33] <Hix> mail@adrian-hicks.co.uk
[12:33] <daveake> Read this first - http://www.developershome.com/sms/howToSendSMSFromPC.asp
[12:33] <daveake> All you need to do is emit the commands
[12:34] <gonzo_> does the mc55 use AT commands?
[12:34] <Hix> yup
[12:34] <daveake> Technically you should wait for "OK" etc coming back, but I just inserted a delay.
[12:34] <Hix> theres a 330 page maual of them
[12:34] <daveake> lol
[12:34] <daveake> You don't need many to send
[12:34] <Hix> www.widerimage.co.uk/docs/MC55_AT.pdf
[12:34] <gonzo_> ah, nice. I do that with hyperterm when setting up my mc35
[12:35] <gonzo_> tis easy
[12:35] <daveake> Set text mode for SMS (avoid PDU), send command with the number to send to, send the text, send the end-of-text (CTRL-Z). Donr
[12:35] <eroomde> Hix: is your website an art work?
[12:35] <Hix> gonzo_, think i've got the 35 AT manual want it?
[12:35] <eroomde> am i meant to reflect on my soul?
[12:35] <gonzo_> ta, but alreadt have
[12:35] <eroomde> or is the content just not loading?
[12:35] <Hix> nope - not sure what it is at the mo - think some shite wordpress holder
[12:35] <daveake> I use software serial for the GSM so I thought a delay would be more reliable than receiving from it :)
[12:36] <gonzo_> keep the soul dull, relfections glint and give you away
[12:36] <Hix> eroomde, works ok from here
[12:39] <eroomde> oh well
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[12:42] <cuddykid> PCBS HAVE ARRIVED!!
[12:42] <cuddykid> they're tiny aswell!
[12:44] <kokey> nice
[12:44] <Hix> to quote manwell evenshwally
[12:44] <kokey> what microcontroller are you going to use?
[12:44] <Hix> manuel
[12:44] <eroomde> pics or it didn't happen
[12:45] <Hix> :D
[12:45] <cuddykid> lol
[12:45] <cuddykid> eroomde: I've got to dash - back in 3hrs, will get them uploaded then!
[12:45] <kokey> wish it was easier to talk to a nokia phone
[12:45] <daveake> cuddykid races off to find someone to make some PCBs
[12:45] <kokey> I discovered that I already have a bunch of them and can get a bunch more
[12:46] <UpuWork> yay cuddykid
[12:46] <daveake> kokey MBUS?
[12:46] <daveake> of FBUS or wahtever it was
[12:46] <kokey> daveake: I think FBUS
[12:46] <daveake> lovely
[12:46] <Hix> they had both i think
[12:46] <kokey> I think you only need MBUS to reprogram/unlock them
[12:46] <daveake> I tried a recent one but they've disabled the SMS AT commands
[12:47] <kokey> really?
[12:47] <daveake> Yeah, it's a long time ago and I gave up anyway
[12:47] <kokey> I think the old ones should be fine
[12:47] <gonzo_> daveake, interested to know how you get your chase car on the tracker. Do you have a separate prog to forward the location to the server, from your GPS?
[12:47] <kokey> perhaps I should just try find the cheapst FBUS to serial or usb cable I can get my hands on
[12:47] <daveake> kokey Yeah, 6300i in this case, but it seems to be a common theme. Something to do with the way they handle texts internally.
[12:48] <Hix> kokey got a load of MC55 GSM/GPRS modules coming tomorrow £15
[12:48] <kokey> Hix: wow
[12:48] <Hix> Siemens - AT supported 35x35x3mm 5g
[12:49] <kokey> well, an old nokia is about £9 and a cable is about £2
[12:49] <kokey> and they're heavy
[12:49] <daveake> gonzo_ I wrote some code to do it. It parses the GPS and forms a URL with the position data inside. Not dofficult
[12:49] <Hix> UpuWork, Is going to try and do some boards for them.
[12:50] <kokey> Hix: you had to get in bulk?
[12:50] <Hix> had to buy min of 10
[12:52] <kokey> cool
[12:52] <kokey> could be handy
[12:52] <kokey> now to find a better use for old nokia phones
[12:53] <gonzo_> daveake, just confirm, I'm refering to the chase car location on spacenearus.
[12:53] <daveake> Yes so am I :)
[12:53] <daveake> dl-fldigi is supposed to do it but it didn't work for me
[12:54] <gonzo_> How does the URL work then? I'd assumed you would send the car data in the usual $$name format?
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[12:55] <daveake> habhub has a URL which you post to the server with parameters for the long/lat, speed etc
[12:55] <daveake> No not $$...
[12:55] <eroomde> this is all occuring on the other side of fldigi
[12:55] <eroomde> the $$ is for the benefit of fldigi's parser
[12:55] <gonzo_> OK think I see now
[12:55] <gonzo_> ta
[12:56] <gonzo_> I'll try with fldidg first. Not wanting to reinvent the wheel (and hating programming PCs)
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[12:57] <daveake> My car pc program uses the GPS already (to show an arrow pointing to the payload) so this way I don't need to have (or spoof) 2 GPS receivers
[12:59] <Hix> i bought a few of these too - appears from a laptop usb port they emit 3.3v http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/350467765831?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
[13:00] <daveake> There's another reason too which may become apparent if you were to look at the code carefully ... http://pastebin.com/UDeeWSyZ
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[13:04] <eroomde> what language is that?
[13:04] <daveake> Delphi
[13:05] <daveake> So Object Pascal
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[13:05] <eroomde> new to me
[13:06] <daveake> Been using it a long time, so tend to stick with it. It does most things pretty well - UI, database, serial comms, TCP/IP, etc
[13:14] <Hix> i'm assuming, though struggliong to fins the docs
[13:14] <Hix> that you can send email via GPRS
[13:15] <Hix> from an MC55 or similar
[13:15] <Hix> :| "struggliong to fins"
[13:16] <daveake> Yes. Will need more work than SMS.*
[13:16] <daveake> * a lot more
[13:17] <navrac> another delphi programmer!!!!#
[13:17] <Hix> hmm - skirts off in the other direction - rapidly :)
[13:17] <daveake> navrac cool :-)
[13:17] <daveake> Hix I would
[13:17] <navrac> I thought we'd about died out
[13:18] <daveake> Yeah, definitely fewer about now
[13:19] <daveake> When you're in Costa Coffee next time, hold the cup in your hand, admire the pretty colour of the cup, and remember me, 'cos I wrote the Delphi program that mixed the ink.
[13:20] <daveake> It's not big fame, but I'll take it :D
[13:20] <navrac> lol
[13:20] <x-f> Hix, if that helps, it's quite easy to send a GET or POST request to a webserver using GPRS, then the webserver can forward it as an email to where you need
[13:20] <Hix> x-f, cool got any info pls?
[13:21] <navrac> most of my delphi stuff is boring business stuff - but at the o2 arena the nissan experience the digital cornfield is delphi based as are a few of the other exhibits
[13:21] <daveake> nice
[13:21] <navrac> and a game called goalstriker at theme parks is another one
[13:22] <x-f> Hix, as a starting point i used this example - http://www.seeedstudio.com/wiki/index.php?title=GPRS_Shield_v0.9b#Uploading_Sensor_Data_to_Pachube.com_using_GPRS
[13:23] <daveake> This is Delphi too (and also mine) - http://test.luciteinternational.com/newsitem.asp?id=78
[13:24] <Hix> cheers x-f
[13:25] <navrac> blimey - that looks as though it was complicated
[13:26] <zyp> do people still use delphi?
[13:27] <daveake> navrac - tell me about it :D
[13:28] <navrac> http://www.thegreenwichphantom.co.uk/
[13:28] <navrac> thats part of the cornfield 1500 touch sensitive stalks, 1500 channels of pwm dimming and quad sound
[13:29] <navrac> turned into a pile of shit by top man of nissan uk who insisted i stopped it being so artistic and made it dull and rubbish
[13:32] <daveake> :(
[13:32] <Hix> http://gallery.autosport.com/picture.php/dir/mercf1launch2012/image/l_af5d1723-4
[13:33] <Hix> Did quite a bit on that.
[13:33] <Hix> pylons and turning vanes
[13:33] <navrac> it gave beautiful ripples of light that swooshed round and mixed with other ripples - you could even play tunes on it. man came in and said make em go on and off quick and no big ripples...
[13:34] <navrac> nice one hix
[13:34] <navrac> but sadly its behind the paywall
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[13:35] <navrac> IU did some stuff for cosworth/renault years ago - are the teams they still as big cheats in F1 nowdays?
[13:36] <Hix> and now I'm working on a stretched Range Rover Sport [increased rear legroom] - for the Chinese market
[13:36] <Hix> I wouldn't say cheating - but there are some fine lines
[13:36] <daveake> Dunno, but they were back in the MS days. Launch control etc
[13:36] <daveake> Some of the motorsport cheats are very inventive
[13:36] <navrac> I did some interesting briefcases that used to be left on the pitwall
[13:37] <Hix> you'd be amazed at how many photos the took every GP
[13:37] <Hix> of every detail of every car
[13:37] <navrac> yep i want to see the closeups of the mercs rear wing
[13:37] <daveake> This one, in the WRC, was brilliant - http://www.motorsportforums.com/wrc/121013-toyota-cheat.html
[13:38] <Hix> the old turbo - that was excellent
[13:39] <daveake> Roll cages filled with nitrous ...
[13:40] <navrac> mine was in the era of no comms from the pitwall to the car. The briefcases seemed to help them in that respect
[13:40] <daveake> :)
[13:40] <navrac> neat trick with that turbo - very clever
[13:42] <Hix> did the "Briefcases" work on a frequency :p
[13:42] <navrac> an IR type frequency
[13:43] <daveake> In 2001 I did some work testing a new timing system. One team had very consistently quik starts :)
[13:44] <navrac> I think clever cheating should be allowed. The penalties for getting caught should be very high, but if you get away with it for say 5 years there should be an amnesty and an award ceremony for the best examples
[13:44] <Hix> +1
[13:44] <daveake> I think in F1 it was Renault who had their cars start automatically when they sensed the jump-start electronics go live
[13:44] <Hix> yup
[13:44] <navrac> lol, clever
[13:45] <Hix> it's what its all about - innovation
[13:45] <daveake> yes, there should be an award for having a system that works by sensing the system that was designed to stop it :)
[13:46] <Hix> it's why things progress - can't stop humans. Sometimes unfortunately
[13:47] <BrainDamage> that reminds me of the speed trap battle
[13:47] <navrac> Lets face it the real innovation comes from people trying to get round problems - the rules being the problem
[13:47] <BrainDamage> there's radar detectors
[13:47] <BrainDamage> then radars that got bundled detection for radar detectors
[13:47] <BrainDamage> and now there's radar detectors that self shut down when approaching a radar, to avoid being detected
[13:48] <BrainDamage> apparently the LO leak for the superhet was sufficient to get caught
[13:49] <daveake> One team in WRC drove a car into their truck to "work on it", then drove a different one out. A photographer spotted that one.
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[13:51] <gonzo_> Someone started making a simplem pulsed tx in the radar band, with the pulse rate being well above the doppler value for the camera, so it would fire the cam in the distance, well repeatedly as you aproach
[13:51] <daveake> :)
[13:51] <gonzo_> so the probability was the cam was busy winding/charging the flash when you got there
[13:52] <gonzo_> but they had changed frequency so I.... erm they... never went any further
[13:53] <Hix> :D
[13:53] <Hix> Someone has burt out a Truvelo on the A45 - always warms my heart when i see it
[13:53] <Hix> burnt
[13:53] <zyp> here in norway speed cameras are based on sensor loops in the road
[13:54] <daveake> Ah, wasn't it Norway where a driver dumped a cmera in the sea then got jailed?
[13:54] <Hix> think that is same sysatem as truvelo
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[13:56] <gonzo_> at uni, a friend got caught by a temp one in roadworks. He has a yellow ex council val so just went back and retrieved it
[13:56] <Hix> zyp http://www.truvelouk.com/speedmeasurement.php
[13:56] <gonzo_> that went outr the side of the humber bridge
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[13:56] <Hix> :D
[13:56] <gonzo_> the up has inductive loop ones
[13:57] <gonzo_> usually with a parking place for the police and they plug in to a car miounted box
[13:57] <gonzo_> uk
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[14:02] <navrac> just read up on smokey yunick on wikipedia - he was a very impressive cheat
[14:04] <NigelMoby> navrac..
[14:04] <NigelMoby> http://i.imgur.com/o1gJY.jpg
[14:04] <SpeedEvil> 'Another Yunick improvisation was getting around the regulations specifying a maximum size for the fuel tank, by using eleven foot (three meter) coils of 2-inch (5-centimeter) diameter tubing for the fuel line to add about 5 gallons (19 liters) to the car's fuel capacity.'
[14:05] <daveake> :-) I remember that one :)
[14:06] <daveake> Honda/BAR had a sub-tank thing but got a 3-race ban for that
[14:06] <daveake> Some other teams had it to but got away with it
[14:06] <navrac> very nice
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[14:07] <daveake> 2" fuel line lol
[14:08] <navrac> Once, NASCAR officials came up with a list of nine items for Yunick to fix before the car would be allowed on the track. The suspicious NASCAR officials had removed the tank for inspection. Yunick started the car with no gas tank and said "Better make it ten,"[3] and drove it back to the pits.
[14:08] <navrac> I like trhe colour too NigelMoby
[14:09] <NigelMoby> hah yud, sunglasses required.
[14:09] <navrac> but think how much smaller and lighter it would be with an rfm22 :-)
[14:09] <navrac> sorry couldnt resist!
[14:10] <NigelMoby> lol I will stick with Ntx2
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[14:24] <Hix> I was thinking about people using GoPros on launches
[14:25] <Hix> The housing is sealed
[14:25] <Hix> so how does it survive pressure differential
[14:25] <Hix> anyone used one?
[14:25] <Randomskk> it's not strictly airtight I suspect
[14:25] <NigelMoby> its not airtight
[14:25] <Randomskk> I imagine it could vent if required
[14:25] <jonsowman> not in the least
[14:25] <Hix> they reckon 100m water to 10atm
[14:25] <NigelMoby> and most remove the waterproof case
[14:25] <Randomskk> well I mean o-rings can make things airtight
[14:25] <Hix> so
[14:26] <Randomskk> so it's not like, totally not airtight
[14:26] <russss> iirc the Horus guys didn't use the housing
[14:26] <russss> and it fell in the sea
[14:26] <Randomskk> hah
[14:26] <jonsowman> it took two screwdrivers to open the case after a flight due to the vacuum inside the case
[14:26] <russss> which is Murphy's law in full effect
[14:26] <NigelMoby> lol ruuus yup, sods law eh.
[14:26] <Hix> so you could put a payload in an otterbox if need be - with a check valve
[14:27] <Hix> to allow the vacum to equalise on decent
[14:27] <Hix> descent
[14:27] <Randomskk> well anyway they come with a housing that has holes in
[14:31] <Laurenceb> im guessing it can outgass
[14:31] <Laurenceb> but seals under external pressure
[14:31] <russss> yeah, generally I would guess it only seals one way
[14:32] <russss> must be fairly robust if it can hold a ~30km near-vacuum at sea level
[14:32] <Randomskk> it's thick polycarbonate I believe
[14:33] <Randomskk> (might not actually be polycarbonate. it's definitely thick.)
[14:33] <Randomskk> hey Laurenceb, my USART2 TX and my I2C1 SCL lines both get driven and held low by the STM32 when I turn those pins to AF mode
[14:33] <Randomskk> and both therefore become unusable
[14:33] <Randomskk> any ideas?
[14:34] <Randomskk> in reset the TX floats and SCL is pulled high as they should be, and as normal GPIOs I can drive both of them high or low no problem
[14:34] <Laurenceb> aiui in AF mode all the hardware devices are connected
[14:34] <Randomskk> AF mode and then I set the MUX to the correct peripheral
[14:34] <Laurenceb> so you probably have two periphgerals turned on
[14:34] <Laurenceb> check your init code
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[14:34] <Lunar_LanderU> hello
[14:35] <Randomskk> hm
[14:35] <Randomskk> hi Lunar_LanderU
[14:35] <Randomskk> Laurenceb: well I guess
[14:35] <Randomskk> like, PB6 is I2C1_SCL and USART1_TX
[14:35] <Randomskk> but that... shouldn't matter? I should be able to use both
[14:35] <Laurenceb> not at the same time
[14:35] <Laurenceb> one needs to be disabled
[14:36] <Randomskk> what?
[14:36] <Randomskk> isn't that like, massively silly?
[14:36] <Laurenceb> I2C1 or USART1 needs to be disabled
[14:36] <Randomskk> each pin has a 16 way mux to select which peripheral it's connected to
[14:36] <Randomskk> I thought
[14:36] <Laurenceb> i think you could configure USART as rx only
[14:36] <Laurenceb> hmm
[14:36] <Laurenceb> F4?
[14:36] <Randomskk> yea
[14:37] <Laurenceb> i havent read the datasheet properly for F4
[14:37] <Laurenceb> sorry
[14:37] <Laurenceb> on F1 it behaves like that aiui - for AF peripherals
[14:37] <Lunar_LanderU> [15:33] <Lunar_LanderU> got a question that is urgent
[14:37] <Lunar_LanderU> [15:33] <Lunar_LanderU> just borrowed me a pen and when I took the pen from the hand of the other person, I got a shock, like the shocks you get when you touch someone or an object
[14:37] <Randomskk> what do you mean by AF though
[14:37] <Laurenceb> well - some of them
[14:37] <Lunar_LanderU> [15:34] <Lunar_LanderU> but in my other hand I had the sparkfun cardboard box with my arduino pro mega that I just soldered
[14:37] <Lunar_LanderU> [15:34] <Lunar_LanderU> could there be damage?
[14:37] <Randomskk> in the F4 all the peripherals are AF
[14:37] <Lunar_LanderU> just asked that at sparkfun but no one answers
[14:37] <Laurenceb> alternative function
[14:37] <Laurenceb> ah
[14:37] <Randomskk> yea, but the primary function of all GPIOs is GPIO
[14:37] <Randomskk> then AF is for all peripheral functions
[14:37] <Laurenceb> yeah in F1 its rather disorganised
[14:37] <Randomskk> aiui
[14:37] <Laurenceb> glad they fixed that in F4
[14:38] <Randomskk> it certainly seems much much better
[14:38] <Randomskk> no more remapping
[14:38] <Randomskk> and a lot more options for connecting each peripheral
[14:38] <Randomskk> yet for some reason USART1 TX is still also USB OTG VBUS
[14:38] <Randomskk> which is incredibly annoying
[14:38] <Laurenceb> dunno then sorry
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[14:38] <Randomskk> :/ oh well, I'll keep investigating
[14:39] <Hix> Lunar_LanderU, if it was n the box I would say not
[14:39] <Randomskk> Lunar_LanderU: yea, not through the box
[14:39] <Randomskk> well
[14:40] <Randomskk> maybe you shocked it when you soldered it :P
[14:40] <Randomskk> you should use ESD protection really
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[14:40] <Randomskk> also it's incredibly hard to test. maybe the device will just die earlier
[14:40] <Randomskk> on the other hand perhaps you were okay and the other person had a charge buildup
[14:41] <Randomskk> so he discharged into you, while you were holding the cardboard box, in which case everything is fine.
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[14:43] <Hix> that needs rephrasing - badly
[14:43] <Hix> :D
[14:43] <Randomskk> I see no problem. ;P
[14:45] <Lunar_LanderU> yeah
[14:45] <Lunar_LanderU> btw it was a she who discharged
[14:45] <Lunar_LanderU> xD
[14:46] <Lunar_LanderU> but that is no difference of course
[14:46] <NickB1> So there was a spark :D
[14:47] <NigelMoby> oh the puns...lol
[14:49] <Hix> as long as nothing flowed you should be safe
[14:49] <Lunar_LanderU> xD
[14:49] <Lunar_LanderU> hi NickB1
[14:49] <NigelMoby> lol his
[14:49] <NigelMoby> hix
[14:49] <NickB1> hi Lunar
[14:51] <daveake> So is she your current girlfriend?
[14:51] <Hix> :D
[14:51] <Hix> are you positive about this question daveake
[14:52] <Lunar_LanderU> daveake: no she is working in the AI office next door
[14:52] <Lunar_LanderU> xD
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[14:52] <daveake> Well you should charge in and ask her out
[14:52] <Hix> he may get a negative responce
[14:52] <fsphil> make sure you use (ESD) protection
[14:52] <Hix> response
[14:53] <Hix> He sounds like a grounded lad to me
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[14:53] <Lunar_LanderU> sorry
[14:53] <Lunar_LanderU> hit "logoff" instead of "block screen"
[14:54] <daveake> I'm so glad no-one has made a pun using "discharge"
[14:54] <NigelMoby> lol
[14:54] <NigelMoby> moving on....
[14:55] <daveake> I think that's best :)
[14:55] <Hix> [14:41]<Randomskk> so he discharged into you, while you were holding the cardboard box, in which case everything is fine.
[14:55] <NigelMoby> indeed
[14:56] <Lunar_LanderU> xD
[14:57] <jonsowman> :|
[14:57] <Lunar_LanderU> back
[15:03] <kokey> this conversation has gone the opposite of high altitude
[15:03] <Lunar_LanderU> yea
[15:03] <gonzo_> (so many potential puns above)
[15:03] <NigelMoby> don't go there...lol
[15:03] <Lunar_LanderU> xD
[15:04] <Lunar_LanderU> brb
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[15:16] <Lunar_LanderU> back
[15:36] <daveake> I now have Google Maps running in a window, with my program asking it for directions from current car position (filled infrom GPS) to current HAB position (filled in from fldigi) - http://i.imgur.com/4WFab.jpg
[15:36] <Randomskk> nice :D
[15:38] <Lunar_LanderU> to cite the great Richard P. Feynman
[15:38] <Lunar_LanderU> "Meeeeeee!"
[15:38] <Lunar_LanderU> xD
[15:40] <Lunar_LanderU> that is hotter than the sun!
[15:40] <Lunar_LanderU> xD
[15:40] <Lunar_LanderU> to explain
[15:40] <Lunar_LanderU> we are just programming
[15:40] <Lunar_LanderU> and there is a temperature variable
[15:41] <Lunar_LanderU> and while iterating, the temperature just turned to "infinity"
[15:41] <Lunar_LanderU> xD
[15:42] <SpeedEvil> Is the last step 'bring a really tall ladder' ?
[15:43] <Lunar_LanderU> no, no ladders
[15:43] <Lunar_LanderU> that is just a program to solve riddles, like sudokus
[15:43] <Lunar_LanderU> the variable is just called "temperature"
[15:44] <Lunar_LanderU> no real temperature
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[15:45] <Lunar_LanderU> YAY it solved it with just 4 errors
[15:46] <Lunar_LanderU> *mistakes
[15:47] <Lunar_LanderU> OK
[15:47] <Lunar_LanderU> cu later
[15:47] <eroomde> daveake: nice work
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[15:47] <daveake> ta
[15:47] <eroomde> though obv the predicted landing site might be more useful!
[15:48] <daveake> I'll get it to also download the latest from habitat, in case we don't have the latest telemetry in the chase car but someone else does
[15:48] <daveake> Yes, indeed. I wonder if there's a way of getting that
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[15:49] <Hix> eroomde, google maps doesn't cover North sea does it ;p
[15:49] <daveake> Only by ferry
[15:50] <NickB1> or Jetski
[15:50] <Hix> i remember the other week a predicted landing site was intersecting the ferry route
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[16:21] <andrew_apex> Hix: Apex III (launch 1) did land on a ferry route :P
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[16:23] <SAIDias> Howdy
[16:23] Nick change: SAIDias -> W0OTM
[16:24] <W0OTM> Those of you in the US, have you experienced difficulty getting helium because of the helium shortage?
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[16:31] <NigeyS> W0OTM, how bad is the shortage there atm ?
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[16:35] <Hix> NigeyS, http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/why-the-world-is-running-out-of-helium-2059357.html
[16:35] <NigeyS> seen
[16:36] <SpeedEvil> 3 years ago
[16:37] <W0OTM> All the commercial distributors are not selling He cash/carry
[16:37] <andrew_apex> is hydrogen cheaper than helium?
[16:37] <daveake> much
[16:37] <W0OTM> and they are only fulling 40% of helium contracts
[16:37] <daveake> £44 for 7.2 m3 vs £105 for 9.1
[16:37] <andrew_apex> wow... can anyone buy hydrogen?
[16:38] <daveake> I've had no trouble getting helium from BOC, but can't get it from Air Products
[16:38] <UpuWork> You can Andrew but you need to take care
[16:38] <daveake> You need a BOC account, which is straightforward. You also need to read Upu (oh there he is)'s guide on ukhas
[16:38] <andrew_apex> I'm not considering it personally, just wondering about the future of HABing
[16:39] <UpuWork> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:hydrogen
[16:39] <UpuWork> I suspect most people won't have a choice tbh
[16:39] <Hix> daveake, how did you ge that price from BOC? they quoted me nearly double that
[16:39] <daveake> which price?
[16:40] <andrew_apex> I've only ever done launches funded by school/uni/etc, but for individuals paying for their own gas, hydrogen seems very attractive
[16:40] <UpuWork> It does but you need to be super careful
[16:40] <daveake> £44 is for an industrial cylinder. You were probably quoted for an extra-pure lab cylinder
[16:41] <daveake> Really, unless you have a special reason for using hyrdogen (and saving money isn't IMO special enough) stick with Helium
[16:41] <daveake> Also with H2 you need to buy a regulator for £lots
[16:41] <andrew_apex> is it higher pressure when liquidised?
[16:41] <eroomde> we drink hydrogen at work
[16:41] <eroomde> so i'll probably use it for the next flight
[16:42] <daveake> all gasses are high pressure when liquid :)
[16:42] <daveake> or cold
[16:42] <daveake> Or you mean "is H2 higher pressure than He qhen liquid?"
[16:42] <daveake> Not sure; think so
[16:42] <andrew_apex> ^^ that :)
[16:43] <andrew_apex> i was wondering if that's why you need a more expenisve regulator
[16:43] <Laurenceb> lol
[16:43] <Laurenceb> if it was liquid at room temp the pressure would be high
[16:43] <daveake> But no the pressure itn't the problem - it's the flammability. Needs little energy to light it,; burns without a visible flame; has a wide range of H2 vs O2 in which it will ignite
[16:43] <andrew_apex> sure
[16:43] <daveake> The He ones include a regulator. The industrial H2 ones don't
[16:44] <daveake> Even opening the valve then snapping it shut can cause it to ignite
[16:45] <Hix> daveake, Size T***
[16:45] <Hix> 86.09
[16:45] <Hix> 3.6m^2 plus VAT +collection! charge
[16:45] <daveake> That's He. You don't want to buy He directly from BOC
[16:45] <UpuWork> T is annoying as its not quite enough to get a 1600g Hwoyee > 4.5m/s
[16:45] <eroomde> "it burns without a visible flame" http://www.flickr.com/photos/69676024@N07/6334545713/
[16:46] <daveake> eroomde point :)
[16:46] <UpuWork> haz wikipedia told a mistrooth ?
[16:46] <eroomde> that was at work
[16:46] <eroomde> it is very faint though
[16:46] <daveake> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0010218009000170
[16:47] <gonzo_> what's H2 cost by comparison?
[16:47] Action: SpeedEvil adds to the hydrogen page
[16:48] <daveake> Less than half the cost of He
[16:48] <jonsowman> has anyone got a 300 baud NTX2 payload around that they can screenshot the waterfall for me?
[16:48] <Hix> ahh you were quoting UK h2 prices
[16:48] <daveake> Hence the £ sign
[16:48] <Hix> i thought He
[16:48] <UpuWork> jonsowman I can do one when I get home in about an huor
[16:49] <jonsowman> UpuWork: that's great, thanks :D
[16:49] <Hix> benfits of not reading things properly eh.
[16:49] <daveake> Shall we start again? 3.6m3 He £65. 9.1 m3 He £105. 7.2 H2 £53, all inc VAT, all exc delivery
[16:50] <daveake> So roughly half price for H2
[16:50] <r2x0t> I talked to a guy sending up weather sonde baloons
[16:50] <r2x0t> they use only H2
[16:50] <gonzo_> how does h2 compare then for the fill vol, kift and burst height?
[16:50] <SpeedEvil> gonzo_: The same.
[16:50] <SpeedEvil> gonzo_: Pretty much.
[16:50] <UpuWork> its better
[16:51] <gonzo_> (Big questio I know!)
[16:51] <r2x0t> h2 have slightly higher lift
[16:51] <UpuWork> 5%
[16:51] <UpuWork> ish
[16:51] <SpeedEvil> gonzo_: you need to measure very carefully to see the difference.
[16:51] <kokey> you could also try to slowly fill a balloon with H2 from electrolysis powered by off peak electricity or wind power
[16:51] <gonzo_> ah, expected it to be more complicated. OK np
[16:51] <r2x0t> kokey: that's how they make H2 on remote stations
[16:51] <jibbily> kokey: how long would that take?
[16:52] <kokey> no idea but from my childhood playing with electrolysis probably a long time on wind
[16:52] <Hix> kin ages I'd guess
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[16:52] <daveake> Roughly, He is 10% as dense as air but H2 is 5%. So with H2 the lift is 95% of the weight of the displaced air vs 90%. So not a big difference
[16:53] <daveake> However if one was to, for example, go for the world altitude record, that might equate to an extra 700 metres with H2 vs He
[16:53] <UpuWork> just do a launch with He first and please ask before you attempt to use H2
[16:53] <daveake> +10000
[16:53] <daveake> Also, He for balloons has a few percent air in it, so that increases the difference a little
[16:54] <NigeyS> daveake, miniscule
[16:54] <NigeyS> .1% if that
[16:54] <daveake> Someone here said 5%
[16:54] <kokey> 17km?
[16:54] <jonsowman> eroomde: around?
[16:54] <SpeedEvil> Zinc on ebay is ~10 quid a kilo. A kilo of zinc is ~30 moles. This will produce in sulphuric acid 15 moles of H2. 15 moles of H2 is 420l.
[16:54] <NigeyS> hm may depend on the type from boc / LAP
[16:55] <daveake> Might be bollox, I've no idea
[16:55] <NigeyS> i know LAP is 99.5 for industrial, and 99.9% for medical
[16:55] <daveake> I've not seen anywhere were it says the actual amount
[16:55] <SpeedEvil> If you can get zinc cheap - at closer to the raw metal price - it may actually be competitive.
[16:55] <jonsowman> we used CP grade which is 99.999% He
[16:55] <SpeedEvil> The generation is less trivial though.
[16:55] <kokey> you can get zinc from old dry cell batteries
[16:56] <NigeyS> CP is the medical stuff jon ?
[16:56] <SpeedEvil> kokey: Well - yes. But not ~10kg
[16:56] <jonsowman> NigeyS: there's two grades higher than CP
[16:56] <UpuWork> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PDC-4-Hydrogen-Gas-Diaphragm-Compressor-Very-Nice-/120789482064?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c1f9d3a50
[16:56] <jonsowman> (from BOC anyway)
[16:56] <NigeyS> blimey
[16:56] <kokey> I could raid the battery recycling tubes at work but it would take a long time
[16:56] <jonsowman> NigeyS: N6 grade is highest, 99.9999%
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[16:57] <NigeyS> :o and lets all guess the price on that !
[16:57] <jonsowman> 'lots'
[16:57] <NigeyS> wonder what they use in MRI
[16:57] <SpeedEvil> MRI doesn't use hydrogen
[16:57] <NigeyS> on about helium :)
[16:57] <SpeedEvil> Some coolers are actually going 'dry' now.
[16:57] <Hix> How much do you reckon CERN are getting through
[16:57] <UpuWork> right off home
[16:57] <UpuWork> back soon
[16:58] <NigeyS> well they leaked 3 tonnes of the stuff ? when the magnets quenched
[16:59] <Hix> 3tonnes - shit
[16:59] <Hix> at BOC prices thats a few pennies ;p
[16:59] <NigeyS> lol yup, and tha was fairly small quench iirc
[17:00] <Hix> kin ell
[17:00] <Hix> what volume do you need to make up 3t of He
[17:01] <NigeyS> err...
[17:01] <SpeedEvil> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/800g-Magnesium-metal-high-purity-99-8-not-ribbon-/130529553487?pt=UK_BOI_Medical_Lab_Equipment_Lab_Supplies_ET&hash=item1e642aec4f - hmm - I think this makes ~1m^3 of H2
[17:01] <NigeyS> maths fail here
[17:01] <Hix> 16,797,312.430 litres i think from basic google density
[17:01] <NigeyS> SpeedEvil, thats a nice chunk!
[17:02] <kokey> BOC?
[17:02] <kokey> bank of china?
[17:03] <NigeyS> british oxygen company
[17:03] <NigeyS> big gas supplier
[17:03] <daveake> Boil Old Cats
[17:03] <Hix> Bunch of..........
[17:03] <SpeedEvil> It was historically an arm of the admiralty - when we maintained that all the Oxygen in the world was ours.
[17:03] <kokey> wunch of bankers
[17:04] <navrac_> you mean it isn;t ours?
[17:04] <Hix> SpeedEvil, that true?
[17:04] <SpeedEvil> Of course.
[17:04] <kokey> like all the swans
[17:04] <NigeyS> illegal to kill a swan in the uk
[17:05] <NigeyS> protected by the crown
[17:05] <fsphil> mute swans only
[17:05] <NigeyS> oh, i thought it was all ?
[17:06] <kokey> yeah make sure they make noise before you kill them
[17:06] <Hix> I could half believe that is what we were like back then
[17:06] <fsphil> lol
[17:06] <NigeyS> lol kokey
[17:06] <NigeyS> what about birds of prey phil, same thing ?
[17:07] <kokey> common myth is that killing a mute swan was punishable by death
[17:07] <fsphil> it was until 1998
[17:08] <NigeyS> Swans used to be eaten by the aristocracy up to Tudor/Elizabethan ages. They ceased to be a popular dish when all swans in England were declared the property of the monarch, so catching one to eat could result in a short (or not so short) stay in the tower
[17:08] <SpeedEvil> I was recently dissapointed to learn it's illegal to kill wildlife for the pot with UAVs.
[17:08] <NigeyS> id love to be locked in the tower, thatd be cool!
[17:09] <fsphil> that can be arranged *g*
[17:09] <NigeyS> lol SpeedEvil !!!
[17:09] <Hix> Not with that many tourists
[17:09] <NigeyS> fsphil, you think i wifi dongle would work there? :D
[17:09] <NigeyS> a*
[17:09] <number10> what about the rack NigeyS , fancy that?
[17:09] <NigeyS> nooooooooo
[17:09] <NigeyS> just a nice cold windowless cell for a few days
[17:10] <number10> just locked up at night with the gohsts
[17:10] <Hix> you can have my office - well aprat from the cold bit
[17:10] <Hix> its baking in here
[17:10] <Hix> but you're welcome
[17:10] <Hix> have it for as long as you want
[17:11] <NigeyS> haha i'll pass :D
[17:11] <NigeyS> number10, ghosts are cool!
[17:13] <kokey> heh, I was trying to look up the story about swans breaking arms
[17:13] <kokey> seems like there's little evidence of it
[17:13] <NigeyS> i'd imagine they can give you a fairly nasty peck though
[17:14] <Hix> i think there's more o2 in the LAP daveake was talking about than my office at the moment
[17:14] <andrew_apex> where do you tell fl-digig HAB where the checksum is and what sort of type it is?
[17:14] <Hix> too many workstations and bodies
[17:14] <Hix> and no venting
[17:14] <fsphil> there was a story recently about a swan (I think it was anyway) pecking someones eye out
[17:15] <fsphil> not a swan: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-14118494
[17:15] <kokey> I know someone who broke the neck of an ostrich
[17:17] <NigeyS> andrew_apex, no idea, just had a look, isnt it all set via the payload file generated for habitat ?
[17:18] <andrew_apex> NigeyS: should be, but fl-digi isn't recognising strings for SHARP
[17:18] <number10> what crc do you use?
[17:18] <NigeyS> o thats not good, umm.. maybe phil can help
[17:19] <NigeyS> might need to RV it and or turn squelch off, but i guess uve done that
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[17:20] <andrew_apex> jonsowman spotted the problem - we're terminating with a 13, not a 10
[17:21] <NigeyS> ahh, see, 13 really is an unlucky number!
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[17:25] <andrew_apex> do you include the initial $$s in the checksum calculation?
[17:26] <jonsowman> no
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[17:26] <andrew_apex> what about the commas?
[17:26] <jonsowman> yes
[17:26] <daveake> yes
[17:27] <cuddykid> long awaited pcb photos uploading!
[17:27] <daveake> Everything after the $$ and before the checksum
[17:27] <kokey> Hix: how do you interface with the MC55?
[17:27] <jonsowman> we should clearly have a second checksum including the first checksum
[17:27] <jonsowman> :\
[17:27] <andrew_apex> $$SHARP,3, ,0.000000,0.00000,0.00,0,22.62,1030.97,False*12AF
[17:27] <jonsowman> andrew_apex: "False", really?
[17:27] <gonzo_> ans exclide the trailing * i think
[17:27] <NigeyS> cuddykid, they arrived ?!
[17:27] <cuddykid> NigeyS: yup!! this morning
[17:27] <andrew_apex> jonsowman: that will be a number :P
[17:27] <cuddykid> check them out! -> http://flic.kr/s/aHsjyDRk8J
[17:27] <NigeyS> yey!
[17:27] <jonsowman> andrew_apex: lol good
[17:28] <NigeyS> ATS turned up today to, ill find pics now
[17:28] <kokey> is $$SHARP a perl ref? ;-)
[17:28] <cuddykid> eroomde: http://flic.kr/s/aHsjyDRk8J
[17:28] <andrew_apex> not deliberatly :P
[17:28] <gonzo_> be careful of some online crc calc sites, I spent ages trying to debug mine, only to fine it was he checker that was at fault
[17:28] <Hix> kokey, AT commands. If you are talking hardware DF12 connector
[17:29] <jonsowman> gonzo_: very true, check your CRC calculator with a known correct string and checksum
[17:29] <number10> there are examples on the ukhas site for crcs
[17:29] <Hix> Upu said he was going to make a board or you can get http://www.mcustore.com/arm-multimedia-boards/435-easygsm-gprs-mc55-board.html
[17:30] <kokey> Hix: how does it talk through the connector? serial?
[17:31] <Hix> yeah
[17:31] <kokey> cuddykid: that looks awesome
[17:31] <Upu> ping jonsowman http://i.imgur.com/NIYdx.png
[17:31] <Upu> do you want a wav too ?
[17:32] <cuddykid> kokey: cheers, I'm impressed with how they've turned out! Just about worth the wait I think!
[17:32] <NigeyS> cuddykid, http://i.imgur.com/o1gJY.jpg
[17:32] <jonsowman> Upu: no that's great, thank you
[17:32] <cuddykid> won't be able to get it soldered up until the weekend though
[17:32] <cuddykid> oh nice NigeyS! I like the curved corners
[17:32] <NigeyS> hah yush, sexyness!
[17:32] <jonsowman> Upu: http://imgur.com/5f2a7
[17:32] <jonsowman> that's the waterfall from Joey at 300bd
[17:33] <jonsowman> looked a bit messy, just wanted to compare
[17:33] <cuddykid> hardest thing to solder will be the ublox
[17:33] <cuddykid> the rest looks doable, just
[17:33] <NigeyS> ooo, looks a bit spaced out dont it ?
[17:33] <jonsowman> cuddykid: you could reflow it
[17:33] <jonsowman> NigeyS: yeah it's a little odd
[17:33] <cuddykid> jonsowman: hmm, I don't have any of the equip though
[17:34] <Upu> yeah
[17:34] <Upu> I have a plan to fix that though
[17:34] <NigeyS> mines similar, but not as spaced out
[17:34] <Upu> don't use 300 baud
[17:34] <jonsowman> Upu: haha
[17:34] <Upu> instant results
[17:34] <kokey> oh the ublox looks SMD or something
[17:34] <Upu> happy receivers
[17:34] <cuddykid> kokey: yep
[17:34] <kokey> how much is a neo-6?
[17:34] <Upu> use a MAX6 kokey
[17:34] <jonsowman> Upu: true, Joey on 50 baud is fine
[17:34] <Hix> kokey speak to Upu about gPS
[17:34] <cuddykid> yeah, I would use a max6
[17:35] <Upu> http://ava.upuaut.net/store and use discount code UKHAS
[17:35] <Hix> oh - bit late there
[17:35] <kokey> with these nice modules I think it's time to think of building a bicycle tracker
[17:35] <cuddykid> kokey: that's what I was going to do :P
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[17:37] <kokey> either that or just some radioactive material
[17:37] <NigeyS> yeah drop some U235 in the head tube the police will happily find it for you
[17:38] <daveake> jonsowman this is 300 baud from an rfm22b. Haven't tried with an NTX2 yet http://www.daveakerman.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/300-baud-RTTY.jpg
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[17:38] <jonsowman> daveake: that looks quite similar to joey
[17:38] <jonsowman> thanks
[17:38] <daveake> np
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[17:39] <G0DJA> Ooops!
[17:39] <kokey> NigeyS: or wait for the next guy to launch with a geiger counter
[17:39] <NigeyS> lol
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[17:39] <jonsowman> daveake: have you got any filtering between the mcu and the rfm?
[17:40] <G0DJA> All for the sake of an /
[17:41] <gonzo_> should always try for a / before you go
[17:42] Nick change: G0DJA -> Morseman_G0DJA
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[17:57] <Morseman_G0DJA> Very good gonzo ;-)
[18:04] <navrac> I dont think you need any filtering when using it as a tx and daveake doesn't - however when its a receiver it does
[18:04] <navrac> trying to find a saw for the rx side at the moment
[18:06] <andrew_apex> where do I find the #include <util/crc16.h> library?
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[18:11] <NigeyS> andrew_apex, i think it comes with avr-libc ?
[18:11] <navrac> yep
[18:11] <jonsowman> http://www.nongnu.org/avr-libc/user-manual/group__util__crc.html
[18:12] <priyesh> this too -> http://www.nongnu.org/avr-libc/user-manual/crc16_8h_source.html
[18:13] <andrew_apex> aha - the CRC16 routine we are using uses an initial value of 0, not FFFF
[18:13] <andrew_apex> fingers crossed, this should work!
[18:15] <daveake> jonsowman Sorry was afk. The rfm22b has an spi interface, so the frequency is set by poking into registers.
[18:15] <jonsowman> so you just set the carrier frequency to one frequency and then another to create RTTY?
[18:15] <jonsowman> there's no 'modulation' input as such?
[18:16] <daveake> Exactly
[18:16] <jonsowman> got it
[18:16] <jonsowman> thanks
[18:17] <jiffe98> http://www.engadget.com/2012/03/20/felix-baumgartner-skydive-13-miles-insane/
[18:22] <Hix> lower but cooler http://youtu.be/DIf_vfmC2zA
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[18:24] <Hix> imho
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[19:04] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[19:12] <Lunar_Lander> discharge!
[19:12] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[19:12] daveake (~daveake@daveake.plus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[19:13] <Lunar_Lander> wb daveake
[19:16] <number10> XD
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[19:16] <daveake> LO LL #10
[19:18] <Lunar_Lander> daveake,
[19:18] <Lunar_Lander> I just said
[19:18] <Lunar_Lander> discharge
[19:18] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[19:27] <cuddykid> XD
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[19:40] <griffonbot> Received email: Adam Greig "Re: [UKHAS] Re: CUSF: Wombat Test Flight"
[19:42] <cuddykid> when I told people here that my pcbs had arrived they thought it was a shipment of drugs lol
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[19:43] <x-f> well they did make you happy today
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[19:46] <jcoxon> evening all
[19:46] <x-f> evening
[19:46] <Hix> evening
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[19:48] Nick change: Nigel_ -> Nige|
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[19:53] <jcoxon> ping navrac
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[19:55] <navrac> hi jcoxon
[19:56] <jcoxon> interesting about hte lipo
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[19:58] <jcoxon> certainly worth a try
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[19:58] <jcoxon> i've resurrected my picoatlasMK3 payload
[19:58] <jcoxon> with an antenova
[19:58] Hix (~Hix@93-96-211-26.zone4.bethere.co.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[19:58] <navrac> sorry - daughter on phone
[19:58] <jcoxon> np
[20:01] Nick change: Nige| -> NigeyS
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[20:03] <Lunar_Lander> hello again
[20:04] <WillDuckworth> hey jcoxon - how goes it?
[20:04] <jcoxon> WillDuckworth, hey, well thanks
[20:05] <jcoxon> and you?
[20:05] <WillDuckworth> all ok - still battling with an odd arduino reboot problem..... think the crc16 causes some sort of overflow
[20:05] <WillDuckworth> xor checksum works fine
[20:06] <Lunar_Lander> hello jcoxon , WillDuckworth
[20:06] <jcoxon> WillDuckworth, you using the avr library for it?
[20:06] <WillDuckworth> using #include "util/crc16.h" - that right?
[20:06] <jcoxon> yeah
[20:06] <jcoxon> never had an issue before
[20:07] <WillDuckworth> head - brick wall - bashing. will persevere
[20:07] <WillDuckworth> ta
[20:07] <daveake> Out of memory? That's the usual reason for unexplained reboots
[20:08] <jcoxon> yeah
[20:08] <jcoxon> 168 or 328?
[20:08] <WillDuckworth> 328 duemilanove jobby - seems plenty of mem left- using memfree.h
[20:09] <jcoxon> hmmmm
[20:09] <jcoxon> sprintf?
[20:09] alex____ (c3897ba6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.195.137.123.166) joined #highaltitude.
[20:09] <WillDuckworth> 801 free - something's up. gonna re-write it from scratch i reckon
[20:09] <WillDuckworth> cheers anyway
[20:09] <NigeyS> you using software serial at all ?
[20:10] <WillDuckworth> yeah, nss special - hi nigeys
[20:10] <alex____> I all, am new here, planning to send a camera to space, was told this is a good chat
[20:10] <daveake> Falling off the end of any buffers?
[20:10] <alex____> would love to hear any thoughts
[20:10] <NigeyS> WillDuckworth, NSS has issues, might be worth checking that
[20:11] <WillDuckworth> thanks mate - will investigate
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[20:11] <Hix> Hi alex____ have you checked out ukhas.org.uk
[20:11] <alex____> Hi Hix,
[20:11] <NigeyS> hi alex____ :)
[20:11] <alex____> thanks, will take look
[20:12] <navrac> hmm well its the right palce to talk about it - but if you ask have you any thoughts its a bit open ended - we couldbe here for days!
[20:12] <Lunar_Lander> XD yeah it is indeed a good chat
[20:12] <alex____> heheheh
[20:12] <alex____> baloon size
[20:12] <alex____> for a camera
[20:12] <Lunar_Lander> especially with electric discharge!
[20:12] <alex____> and phone
[20:12] <alex____> was thinking 600,
[20:12] <navrac> best thing is to read thru the wiki
[20:13] <Hix> read the bit about NOTAMS (very important) balllon info http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:balloon_data
[20:13] <navrac> to make it more fun build a tracker in - there is a whole side to this which isnt about the pics which is very worthwhile
[20:13] <alex____> That site is awesome Hix, thanks
[20:13] <alex____> looks like tons of info on there
[20:13] <Hix> no probs
[20:13] <navrac> theres enough infop there to build a complete system - i did
[20:14] <navrac> and heres a good place to chat about how you think you want to do it and get advice - or just chat and make bad puns
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[20:14] <Hix> :D
[20:14] <Hix> too late with http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:guidelines
[20:15] <navrac> yep he's floated off
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[20:15] <Randomskk> har har navrac
[20:15] <alexwillink> think that will work now
[20:15] <daveake> You have to be quick with some of these newbies
[20:15] <alexwillink> got kicked out
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[20:15] <daveake> :)
[20:15] <alexwillink> Thanks Hix for the info
[20:15] <alexwillink> helps a lot
[20:15] <daveake> Any more specific questions just ask here
[20:15] <alexwillink> was also thinking of sending something crazy up. Loved the beer
[20:15] <navrac> foods ready - jcoxon you still about - I'll be back in 5 (im a fast eater)
[20:16] <alexwillink> that was sent up by the americans
[20:16] <jcoxon> navrac no hurry
[20:16] <Hix> nps be sure to read http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:guidelines it's the bit that will stop things going bad
[20:16] <alexwillink> heheh,
[20:16] <daveake> Americans do beer now do they?
[20:16] <navrac> I think everything has gone up by now
[20:16] <alexwillink> parachute am wondering about though
[20:16] <alexwillink> maybe make it myself,
[20:16] <eroomde> faff
[20:16] <alexwillink> can't seem to find one online that looks good
[20:16] <Hix> daveake, get real
[20:16] <eroomde> try aerocon systems
[20:16] <Randomskk> http://randomengineering.co.uk/Random_Aerospace/Parachutes.html
[20:17] <eroomde> they do surplus. nice stuff but ver slow
[20:17] <jonsowman> eroomde: have you got any filtering between the DAC and the NTX2?
[20:17] <eroomde> spherachutes and fruitychutes have their fans
[20:17] <jonsowman> or anything at all in fact?
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[20:17] <eroomde> jonsowman: nope
[20:17] <alexwillink> all out of stock, but look perfect
[20:17] <jonsowman> interesting
[20:17] <jonsowman> have you got it transmitting rtty?
[20:17] <Randomskk> (at 300 baud)
[20:17] <jonsowman> yes
[20:17] <eroomde> not yet
[20:17] <eroomde> but we did exactly this for badger 1
[20:18] <eroomde> arm7 dac direct to ntx2
[20:18] <jonsowman> interesting
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[20:18] <eroomde> worked fine, including at higher baud rates
[20:18] <jonsowman> so i did that with joey
[20:19] <jonsowman> and ok it works but the spectrum is horrificly messy
[20:19] <jonsowman> so i've now got it transitioning using the step response of an order 50 FIR with a gaussian window
[20:19] <jonsowman> and it's much, much better
[20:19] <alexwillink> Clearly is going to take quite a bit of planning, but will be worth it, anyone here sent a balloon up and got a video online?
[20:19] <daveake> There are lots on youtube
[20:19] <jonsowman> i'll be interested to see how hedgehog performs
[20:20] <Randomskk> ntx2 is designed for fairly high bit rates anyway isn't it
[20:22] <jonsowman> i wonder if there's any internal filtering
[20:25] <jcoxon> jonsowman, i think there is
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[20:25] <jonsowman> jcoxon: i assume just a lowpass but it'd be interesting to know exactly what
[20:25] <jonsowman> i'm digitally doing a lowpass filter with a cutoff at 500Hz on this board at the moment
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[20:28] <daveake> jonsowman See http://radiometrix.com/files/additional/circuit-diagrams/ntx2nrx2/ntx2_blk.gif
[20:29] <jonsowman> definitely an LPF there
[20:29] <Randomskk> eroomde: oh yea, my crimpers for picoblade turned up
[20:29] <Randomskk> they're not as nice as yours
[20:29] <Randomskk> but they're still fairly nice
[20:30] <Randomskk> haven't tried them yet but will do so soon ;P
[20:33] <eroomde> cool
[20:33] <eroomde> i ordered some 26AWG ptfe wire today
[20:33] <eroomde> alpha cable do some really nice 19 strand stuff
[20:33] <eroomde> it's really great for hookup
[20:33] <Laurenceb_> canford.co.uk is nice
[20:34] <Hix> good spot
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[20:34] <navrac> right jcoxon - I'm back
[20:35] <navrac> the lipo stuff is a little marginal imho
[20:35] <jcoxon> very much so
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[21:38] <Upu> ping Hix-thinkpad
[21:38] <Upu> http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/search/browse.jsp?N=2031+203441+110180230&Ntk=PLS_MAN_BRAND_NAME&Ntt=hirose&Ntx=&No=0&getResults=true&appliedparametrics=true&locale=en_UK&divisionLocale=en_UK&catalogId=&skipManufacturer=false&skipParametricAttributeId=&prevNValues=2031+203441&mm=1002541||,&filtersHidden=false&appliedHidden=false&autoApply=true&originalQueryURL=%2Fjsp%2Fsearch%2Fbrowse.jsp%3FN
[21:38] <Upu> %3D2031%2B203441%26Ntk%3DPLS_MAN_BRAND_NAME%26Ntt%3Dhirose%26Ntx%3D%26No%3D0%26getResults%3Dtrue%26appliedparametrics%3Dtrue%26locale%3Den_UK%26divisionLocale%3Den_UK%26catalogId%3D%26skipManufacturer%3Dfalse%26skipParametricAttributeId%3D%26prevNValues%3D2031%2B203441
[21:38] <Upu> yuk nasty URL
[21:38] <Upu> I think the height is 3mm can you confirm ?
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[21:44] <daveake> Upu Buzz is going through his flight-worthiness tests ... http://imgur.com/TiYLi
[21:44] <Upu> lol
[21:44] <Upu> love the picture in the back ground
[21:44] <Upu> this is what it will look like :)
[21:45] <daveake> Buzz held on with string and sticky tape ... it'll be a bit better for the real thing. Don't tell Buzz he'll have a rod up his arse though :-)
[21:46] <fsphil> Buzz has had worse
[21:46] <daveake> He's made of The Right Stuff
[21:46] <daveake> Meanwhile, for a future mission ... http://imgur.com/CoRYW
[21:47] <Upu> lol
[21:47] <fsphil> hehe, I like the idea of getting one of my pics printed out
[21:47] <daveake> I have access to a 60" wide inkjet so easy to do :)
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[21:49] <NigeyS> http://imgur.com/gallery/52WPw
[21:49] <NigeyS> lol
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[22:03] <HixPad> Anyone willing to forgive an absolutely imbecilic coding question?
[22:03] <jcoxon> always
[22:03] <NigeyS> cant be any worse than my questions :D
[22:03] <HixPad> So, essentially I can write code with the setup() and then a bunch of while loops?
[22:04] <HixPad> So for exp while gps is spitting out data parse it else don't
[22:04] <HixPad> And while alt is
[22:05] <HixPad> Less than x km set gsm to send SMS
[22:05] <HixPad> Else sleep
[22:05] <HixPad> Etc etc
[22:05] <HixPad> This is my basic understanding of a program so far.
[22:05] <HixPad> Without arrays or struts ( got the fear)
[22:06] <HixPad> ?
[22:07] <HixPad> And that was structs damn autocorrect
[22:07] <NigeyS> err.. i'll let someone more knowledgeable answer :D
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[22:09] <jcoxon> so this is on an arduino i assume
[22:09] <HixPad> Essentially I am trying to grasp the concept of how the arduino can multitask
[22:09] <HixPad> Yeah jcoxon
[22:10] <HixPad> Seemed easiest way to kick off
[22:10] <jcoxon> good plan
[22:10] <jcoxon> so your setup() is run once
[22:10] <HixPad> :)
[22:10] <jcoxon> then it moves on to loop()
[22:10] <HixPad> Yup got that
[22:10] <HixPad> Yeah
[22:10] <jcoxon> in here you put your program
[22:10] <HixPad> Uh huh
[22:10] <jcoxon> so a simple program can run linear
[22:10] <jcoxon> so
[22:10] <jcoxon> 1) check gps
[22:10] <jcoxon> 2)parse gps
[22:11] <jcoxon> 3) if alt < 1km send SMS
[22:11] <jcoxon> 4) make telem string
[22:11] <jcoxon> 5) transmit radio string
[22:11] <jcoxon> and repeat
[22:11] <HixPad> Ok. Cool. Just to throw something else into the mix
[22:12] <daveake> As a first stab suggest that ^^ is exactly what you do. You can get cleverer later, if you want
[22:12] <HixPad> How would i then add take a pic every x secs for x time
[22:12] <HixPad> Just so I can grasp the higher level theory
[22:13] <jcoxon> so you could use a counter
[22:13] <Randomskk> just extend that idea
[22:13] <daveake> Use a Canon and run chdk, so nothing to do with your program :-)
[22:13] <Randomskk> daveake has the best suggestion
[22:13] <jcoxon> so every loop you add 1 onto a int
[22:13] <Randomskk> but if you insist on having your payload control the camera, you can just use millis() in arduino
[22:13] <Randomskk> it returns number of milliseconds since arduino started running
[22:13] <jcoxon> the have an if count == 10 take a picture
[22:13] <Randomskk> so if it's been, say, x*1000 milliseconds since you last took a photo, take another
[22:13] <HixPad> Ok
[22:13] <Randomskk> and if it's been over y*1000 milliseconds since you started, stop taking photos (if that's what you want to do)
[22:14] <Randomskk> or what jcoxon suggests also works, but counts in units of loops rather than seconds
[22:14] <HixPad> I will follow the linear suggestion
[22:14] <Randomskk> but really do what daveake says
[22:14] <HixPad> Gonna
[22:14] <daveake> Once you start doing lots of things, you'll find the serial approach limiting because it's then difficult to (say) take a photo every 10 seconds when your rtty takes 15 and the SMS another 5
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[22:14] <HixPad> That was what I was trying to work out
[22:14] <Randomskk> however if you've not done much/any programming or launched stuff before
[22:14] <Randomskk> I would avoid for the time being
[22:14] <daveake> I strongly suggest you leave that till later
[22:15] <daveake> Get yourself a solid platform esp rtty
[22:15] <HixPad> Course just trying to get head around coding in general daveake
[22:15] <daveake> esp GPS parsing
[22:15] <andrew_apex> use gadgeteer! <evil laugh>
[22:15] <HixPad> They are the two things I have been onto so far
[22:16] <HixPad> Just trying to get my head around how the more complex progs work
[22:16] <daveake> OK, well one approach is that you make your loop() function run really quickly. So for example it doesn't send the rtty itself, it just builds the sentence to send. Separately (in a timer) you poke the rtty out of the radio
[22:16] <r2x0t> sending rtty by waiting is worst possible way how to do it
[22:16] <Randomskk> other approaches include actual multitasking with threads (not on an arduino) or interrupt driven processing of everything
[22:16] <HixPad> Ah so loop create trry string
[22:16] <Randomskk> r2x0t: it's also the simplest possible way
[22:17] <r2x0t> yes, but using interrupt pin isn't much harder
[22:17] <HixPad> And then other comment to ref loop string
[22:17] <r2x0t> at least with rfm22, it outputs bit clock for you
[22:17] <r2x0t> so just trigger int by it
[22:17] <daveake> So you have a flag that says if you need to build a new rtty sentence, then you test that in the loop. Once it's built, the timer code steps through the sentence a bit at a time. When it gets to the end it sets a flag to request the next sentence.
[22:18] <HixPad> I'm getting a better picture now
[22:18] <daveake> I think for someone starting out, skip timer ints. For someone with a bit more experience they are indeed easier
[22:18] <HixPad> Course, I was just curious about what's next. I firmly believe in ri
[22:19] <HixPad> Walk before run
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[22:20] <HixPad> It's just plodding through exercises and reading books and sites gets very mundane
[22:20] <HixPad> So it's nice to have a break and then chat about ideas
[22:20] <cuddykid> just run your rtty stuff from a function call within loop()
[22:20] <cuddykid> worked fine for both my launches
[22:20] <HixPad> Before tannin back doon pit :)
[22:20] <cuddykid> and I'll be using it until it no longer works :)
[22:21] <HixPad> :D
[22:21] <HixPad> Right cheers for the help guys, back doon pit. Bbl t
[22:28] <navrac> interrupts are hell unless you are good at them. most people think they are but most arent
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[22:30] <daveake> Just getting the timer programmed with the right values in the right registers is bad enough unless you've done it before or are copying some code
[22:30] <schofieldau> is it okay to have the loop routine on an arduino just continuiously build new sentences and call the rtty transmit library?
[22:32] <daveake> Well that's pretty much the suggestion above ... get/parse GPS, build/send rtty
[22:32] <daveake> Do the loop takes 15 seconds or whatever it takes to read the GPS (<= 1second) and send the rtty (the rest)
[22:32] <daveake> s/do/so
[22:33] <daveake> Not what I'd do but nothing fundamentally wrong with it, and it's a good starting point for someone on step 1, which is how I read it for Hix
[22:34] <schofieldau> alright. it won't end up tripping over itself and trying to feed the rtty routine more sentances than it can transmit in the time it has? or will the loop routine just wait for it once it gets to the rtty.transmit() bit?
[22:35] <daveake> No, the "loop()" code is just called again after it finishes. So imagine it enclosed in a while(TRUE) loop
[22:35] <navrac> does anyone know a site which has maps that show elevation - wife has found a new house but i need to check the surrounding hills
[22:35] <Upu> HixPad> Course, I was just curious about what's next. I firmly believe in ri
[22:35] <Upu> [22:19] <Hix
[22:35] <Upu> grr
[22:36] <Upu> HixPad> Course, I was just curious about what's next. I firmly believe in ri
[22:36] <Upu> [22:19] <Hix
[22:36] <Upu> ffs
[22:36] <Upu> stupid cut and paste
[22:36] <daveake> Upu get a grip :)
[22:36] <Upu> http://www.heywhatsthat.com/
[22:36] <HixPad> Hi Upu
[22:36] <daveake> That's the one I was trying to remember
[22:36] <Upu> hi Hix
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[22:36] <HixPad> You were pinging me?
[22:36] <Upu> I was
[22:36] <navrac> thanks
[22:36] <HixPad> The URL?
[22:37] <Upu> http://goo.gl/AAjTC
[22:37] <Upu> 3mm height ok ?
[22:37] <HixPad> Yeah, tho rs are cheaper I think
[22:38] <Upu> yeah they are
[22:38] <HixPad> And I've got account so could order them so no post
[22:39] <navrac> next question - how do you get google maps to give the lat/lon
[22:39] <Upu> I'll have a think about a PCB
[22:39] <HixPad> Ffs every time I swap apps I'm afk
[22:39] <Upu> navrac right click on the map and select drop long/lat marker
[22:40] <Upu> you might need to be logged in
[22:40] <HixPad> Upu: Reckon itll be best to put sim on board too
[22:40] <Upu> yeah
[22:40] <navrac> i dont get that option :-(
[22:40] <HixPad> Ha lunar ;)
[22:40] <Randomskk> navrac: go to settings -> labs
[22:41] <Randomskk> there's an option to have lat/lng appear while you hold shift or something
[22:41] <daveake> I've seen that one
[22:41] <Upu> its Maps Labs just below the Experience MapsGL
[22:41] <Upu> which I don't advise
[22:42] <HixPad> Did you get eagle lib info for hirose?
[22:42] <navrac> found it - encoded in the paste url
[22:43] <Upu> I think that library is for the older larger connector
[22:43] <HixPad> I've ordered the breakout board I posted earlier so I can crack on with making it speak first
[22:43] <Upu> there is a con-hirose built into Eagle
[22:43] <Upu> I'll just butcher that
[22:43] <HixPad> Hmm, I'll try and source tomorrow
[22:43] <HixPad> Saw con-hirose
[22:44] <HixPad> At least I'm comfortable picking up eagle
[22:44] <HixPad> That's not too ar from what I'm used to :)
[22:44] <HixPad> Far
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[22:47] <navrac> oh dear - wife isnt going to like it - i reckon i need a 60 foot tower
[22:49] <Lunar_Lander> help me
[22:49] <Lunar_Lander> please
[22:49] <Lunar_Lander> Upu, heathkid
[22:50] <Lunar_Lander> I can't stop laughing
[22:50] <daveake> BOO
[22:50] <daveake> Oh, that's for hiccups
[22:50] <Lunar_Lander> we have a quiz night in another chat and after I did quizzes with the topics "escalator" and "elevator" they just switched the language to spanish
[22:50] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[22:50] <HixPad> navrac: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAPk9KZbdAE&feature=youtube_gdata_player
[22:51] <heathkid> hello Lunar_Lander
[22:59] <schofieldau> hey there Lunar_Lander
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[23:16] <Lunar_Lander> hi heathkid , schofieldau
[23:16] <Lunar_Lander> heathkid, the united nuclear people still didn't send me a shipping cost quote
[23:17] <natrium42> hi Lunar_Lander
[23:17] <natrium42> alles krass?
[23:18] <Lunar_Lander> xD yea
[23:18] <Lunar_Lander> and you?
[23:18] <natrium42> yeah, enjoying the sun
[23:22] <Laurenceb_> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/03/20/self_charging_battery/
[23:22] <Laurenceb_> wut
[23:22] <schofieldau> Lunar: what are you getting from united nuclear?
[23:23] <Lunar_Lander> they got uranium marbles
[23:23] <Lunar_Lander> at least heathkid showed that to me
[23:23] <natrium42> lol
[23:23] <natrium42> marbles!!!
[23:23] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[23:24] <schofieldau> if I ever have a kid and marbles come back in to fashion at his school
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[23:24] <schofieldau> I will buy him uranium marbles
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[23:24] <heathkid> once they are gone they are gone... no one is manufacturing them anymore.
[23:25] <heathkid> Lunar_Lander: not sure why they wouldn't have...
[23:25] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[23:25] <natrium42> you should get a tritium keychain
[23:25] <Lunar_Lander> maybe the mail got caugt in the spam
[23:25] <natrium42> it actually is pretty bright during the night
[23:25] <heathkid> and that CDV-700 they sent me is junk and wires cut, etc.
[23:25] <Lunar_Lander> ohh
[23:26] <heathkid> natrium42: I have both the green one and a blue one
[23:26] <heathkid> the green one is quite bright at night
[23:26] <natrium42> i just have a green one, but one of those larger ones
[23:26] <natrium42> 1 inch
[23:26] <natrium42> lol, somebody should launch a tritium balloon
[23:26] <natrium42> during the night
[23:26] <heathkid> that's the size I have
[23:26] <natrium42> should be easy to track visually :D
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[23:27] <heathkid> and those large marbles are a pretty decent test source
[23:28] <heathkid> I get about 1k counts/minute or more (depends)
[23:28] <heathkid> some as high as 1.5k
[23:28] <heathkid> I don't carry them in my pocket! :P
[23:29] <natrium42> why? it's not gay when the balls don't touch
[23:32] <Lunar_Lander> XD
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[23:37] <Lunar_Lander> did anyone of you use Eclipse SDK for programming?
[23:38] <natrium42> very briefly a long time ago
[23:38] <natrium42> vim is where it's at
[23:38] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[23:41] Action: jcoxon uses xcode
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[23:44] <Lunar_Lander> ah
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[00:00] --- Wed Mar 21 2012