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[00:37] <Adam___> Not the news I wanted as I start promoting my Balloon Project at school: http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/mar/18/helium-party-balloons-squandered
[00:37] <Randomskk> meh blame the USA
[00:38] <chris_99> bring on fusion!
[00:38] <schofieldau> hydrogen!
[00:39] <NigeyS> dam usa's fault that is!!
[00:41] <Randomskk> in the scheme of things I'm not sure how much party balloons even use up
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[00:41] <Adam___> A medium tank has enough for a 1000-1500g balloon depending on your fill and it only costs £65 which seemed cheap to me. Has there been much of a rise in price recently?
[00:41] <NigeyS> Adam___, it went up 15% in december
[00:43] <Adam___> Wow, so nearly £10 extra a tank. We're not planning to launch until this time next year, I better pad our budget a little to take account of that.
[00:43] <NigeyS> i would add at least another 5%
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[01:39] <schofieldau> Anybody have recommendations for parachutes?
[01:40] <Randomskk> the spherachutes on http://randomengineering.co.uk/Random_Aerospace/Parachutes.html
[01:40] <Randomskk> though they are all out of stock except the largest atm it seems
[01:41] <Randomskk> "spherachutes due back in stock in a week", 15th march
[01:41] <schofieldau> ah okay
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[01:42] <schofieldau> thanks :)
[01:43] <Randomskk> np
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[01:47] <NigelMoby> Nn peeps :)
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[07:43] <griffonbot> @LVL1WhiteStar: Jtag not going well. Can't seem to get code to debug on mega, nor can we get bootldr back onto mega... #UKHAS #Arduino http://t.co/PT7cKQdV [http://twitter.com/LVL1WhiteStar/status/181647125199855616]
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[07:48] <eroomde> poor whitestar
[07:48] <Darkside> heh
[07:49] <Darkside> i wonder if they tried ISP...
[07:49] <eroomde> mmm
[07:49] <Darkside> i see people at uni go OMG it has JTAG lets use that for everything!
[07:49] <Darkside> then forget you can program just as easily with ISP
[07:49] <eroomde> isp is suer easy
[07:49] <eroomde> and avrdude is very nice
[07:49] <Darkside> yeah
[07:49] <Darkside> pdi is the same
[07:49] <Darkside> dont think atmegas do PDI though
[07:50] <eroomde> and debug can be done with LEDs and printf :)
[07:50] <Darkside> yes!
[07:50] <eroomde> kiss
[07:50] <Darkside> who needs JTAG for debugging when you have a debug uart lol
[07:50] <Darkside> and a led
[07:50] <eroomde> found jtag very useful for debugging some rtos stuff on badger2, that said
[07:51] <Darkside> that was the cc1111 one wasn't it?
[07:51] <eroomde> lpc2368
[07:51] <Darkside> ahh
[07:51] <eroomde> the cc was just the radio
[07:51] <Darkside> oh i thought you did the whole thins on it
[07:51] <Darkside> thing*
[07:51] <eroomde> oh gosh no
[07:51] <Darkside> heh
[07:51] <Darkside> why not? :D
[07:51] <Darkside> it has the power, doesn't t?
[07:51] <Darkside> it*
[07:52] <eroomde> the cc?
[07:52] <Darkside> yeah
[07:52] <Darkside> i thought it had an 8051 core
[07:52] <eroomde> its an 8051 core!
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[07:52] <Darkside> yeah?
[07:52] <Darkside> isnt that enough to read from a UART and construct sentences?
[07:53] <Darkside> i thought you did that on minibadger or whatever that one was called
[07:53] <eroomde> badger2 was having to sample several sensors at khz, write at high speed to an sd card (faster than the spi interface can do) and made extensive use of all the onboard timers and interrupts for doing all this sequencing and sampling
[07:53] <Darkside> oh ok :P
[07:53] <eroomde> oh yes on badgercub
[07:53] <Darkside> i'm thinking of a different board
[07:53] <eroomde> but badger2 was built for the esa prachute testing ship
[07:54] <Darkside> ahh the red rocket
[07:54] <eroomde> bomb
[07:54] <Darkside> yes
[07:54] <Darkside> that
[07:54] <Darkside> i've seen the pictures
[07:54] <Darkside> scary shit
[07:54] <eroomde> mmm
[07:54] <eroomde> i didnt sleep much i must say
[07:55] <Darkside> yeahi bet
[07:55] <Darkside> ok time to head home from uni
[07:55] <Darkside> lol is 6:30pm...
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[07:55] <eroomde> im trying this on issh through my $tampon
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[07:55] <eroomde> running on the same remote irssi session
[07:55] <eroomde> its surprisingly nice
[07:56] <eroomde> i had a go editing on a remote machine yesterday. with an external keyboard it's a pleasure in vim
[08:05] <natrium42> irssi ftw
[08:06] <natrium42> irssi+screen
[08:06] <UpuWork> mIRC all the way :)
[08:06] <natrium42> lol
[08:06] <natrium42> microsoftie
[08:06] <UpuWork> indeed
[08:09] <natrium42> so you use rdesktop then?
[08:09] <natrium42> ascii interface is a bit more efficient for things like irc
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[08:09] <natrium42> i just connect to my server running irssi via ssh
[08:10] <UpuWork> I use linux heavily just not as a workstation
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[09:29] <daveake> Moaning all
[09:29] <john_many_jars> good morning
[09:30] <daveake> I have to ask .... jars of what? :)
[09:32] <john_many_jars> whatever you like
[09:33] <daveake> Well that answers that then
[09:33] <john_many_jars> it's a reference to that buckaroo bonzai movie
[09:33] <john_many_jars> all the aliens were called john something or other
[09:33] <john_many_jars> john smallberries, john many jars, john not john
[09:33] <john_many_jars> etc
[09:33] <daveake> ok
[09:33] Action: daveake has blank look in his face
[09:33] <daveake> :)
[09:34] <john_many_jars> are you in the UK?
[09:34] <john_many_jars> (It wasn't the most popular movie)
[09:34] <daveake> yep
[09:34] <john_many_jars> i don't know if it really made it over here at all.
[09:34] <john_many_jars> i live in Lancashire, but I'm American
[09:35] <daveake> New payload build - http://www.daveakerman.com/?p=364
[09:35] <daveake> Hopefully flying it on Saturday
[09:35] <daveake> ^ note the word "hopefully"
[09:36] <john_many_jars> cool!
[09:36] <john_many_jars> i take it you are down south somewhere?
[09:36] <daveake> Yeah Berks
[09:37] <john_many_jars> pity. one major reason i haven't ever gotten this done (after years and years) is everyone looks at you like you're crazy here if you suggest such a thing.
[09:38] <daveake> Just do it. There are 2 types of people IME - ones who think "wow that's neat" and ones who wonder what the point is/. Not much middle ground
[09:39] <john_many_jars> yeah. I'll have to do that. It's an issue of time and money as well. And motivation. But mainly money.
[09:39] <john_many_jars> and motivation.
[09:40] <john_many_jars> :-)
[09:40] <daveake> Not as cheap as the "students did this for $200" headlines.
[09:41] <daveake> The reality being that the got the balloon donated, the helium came from the physics lab, etc etc
[09:41] <john_many_jars> yeah. help is nice. I tried to engage the local HAM community, but they aren't interested because the average age of the folks is about 65, and more importantly, the stupid regs here won't let you use amateur radio equipment
[09:41] <john_many_jars> yes. absolutely.
[09:42] <john_many_jars> i have some willing help. they are in Germany.
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[09:43] <john_many_jars> so that wouldn't be cheap either. i will have to go and start buying the stuff one peice at a time.
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[09:44] <john_many_jars> if they did let you use amateur radio stuff, i'd have a willing, if a bit tired, team to help... as long as there was a pub nearby
[09:44] <schofieldau> daveake: curious as to why you put the NTX2 in the lid like that
[09:44] <schofieldau> minimizing aerial runs?
[09:46] <x-f> daveake, what is the three wire connector for on you Buzz payload?
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[09:48] <daveake> Oh, that got removed. That brought the battery power out so I could put a jumper on there to switch it on
[09:48] <daveake> Also, it was a socket for running it from external power
[09:49] <daveake> I decided it might add unreliability so it's gone
[09:49] <daveake> schofieldau 2 reasons - one is that I don't have coax loasses, second is that I can change the base for another with a different frequency
[09:50] <daveake> whether it's better than using coax or not I don't know, but it works
[09:50] <daveake> p.s. that's the base not the lid :)
[09:50] <schofieldau> ah okay cool
[09:51] <number10> predictions not looking good - but a lot can happen in a week
[09:51] <daveake> yes and yes
[09:52] <daveake> A week is a long time in highaltitude :)
[09:52] <number10> looks like you both have completed payloads
[09:52] <daveake> Yep, both done now
[09:52] <number10> did you confirm with DM
[09:53] <daveake> Not yet
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[10:02] <Hix> Morning peeps
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[10:02] <daveake> Morning
[10:03] <x-f> morning
[10:03] <daveake> I wonder .... is it just me that is completely incapable of cutting the circle for a camera lens in the right place?
[10:03] <fsphil> hehe, nope
[10:03] <daveake> Don't think I've ever had one where the lens was actually central
[10:03] <daveake> I measure the things to the nearest mm, and still get it wrong
[10:04] <x-f> seems like a trivial task (but i haven't done that yet myself..)
[10:05] <fsphil> it always seem to be off to one side
[10:05] <fsphil> even if you start with a tiny hole in the middle
[10:05] <fsphil> in the prefect place
[10:06] <Hix> what are you cutting the hole with and into what material?
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[10:06] <fsphil> in my case, polystyrene and a knife
[10:07] <daveake> ditto
[10:07] <Hix> what about something like a hot pastry cutter?
[10:08] <daveake> Would have used the table cutter but the box was assembled by then
[10:08] <Hix> ahh
[10:08] <Hix> one of those compasses thaqt holds a swan morton blade?
[10:09] <daveake> The knife isn't so tricky to use. I just assume there's some space-time warping going on
[10:09] <Hix> :D
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[10:12] <Hix> http://compare.ebay.co.uk/like/290684839532?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar
[10:21] <cuddykid> no pcbs.. wahhh
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[10:25] <Hix> has anyone got an idea if you can get a breakout for ffc cable connectors?
[10:25] <Hix> Got a siemens TC35 module that uses a 40 posn FFC cable
[10:25] <daveake> Ah one for ~£10 on ebay?
[10:25] <Hix> and could do with getting it linked to a breaboard
[10:25] <Hix> daveake, got a link pls?
[10:26] <daveake> No, I mean, "did you get the module for £10 on ebay?" :)
[10:26] <gonzo_> I have a couple of the mc35's (tc35 in a box) work well
[10:26] <daveake> Upu showed me a link to some last week
[10:26] <daveake> They're the standard SMS module
[10:26] <Hix> ah yeah - well I haven't got it yet
[10:26] <daveake> I'm using a Wavecom just becauise I happened to have one
[10:27] <Hix> they seem very slow - nearly 3 weeks cuddykid and that's UK based
[10:27] <gonzo_> worth keeping an eye opne ofr the m30 modules too. They don't do gprs, so are cheeeeeap
[10:27] <cuddykid> I've emailed seed now as it's ridiculous
[10:27] <schofieldau> @daveake: reading your blog atm. your egg payload is brilliant!
[10:27] <daveake> ta :)
[10:28] <daveake> 50g including chute
[10:28] <x-f> my chute alone weights 50 grams :/
[10:28] <daveake> My large one is 80g or so, but of course that's not needed for this thing
[10:29] <x-f> do you actually need a chute for it?
[10:29] <daveake> legally yes
[10:29] <x-f> ah
[10:29] <fsphil> the big disadvantage of the egg shaped payloads is all the bad puns
[10:30] <daveake> It may end up being aimed into the sea like Steve's last 2, but it still has to have a chute
[10:30] <x-f> a radar reflector could act as a chute
[10:31] <Hix> cant seem to find a breakout for a 40 posn FFC what's the rough cost for circuit boards in 1 or 2 offs?
[10:32] <Hix> or who is the cheapest to get 1 or 2 made by?
[10:33] <cuddykid> ahhh, just had a thought - I wonder if the reason why my rfm22b doesn't work is because GND is not connected up :P
[10:33] <cuddykid> forgot that one&. oops
[10:34] <number10> you know where to connect it though cuddykid ?
[10:34] <cuddykid> gnd - gnd
[10:34] <daveake> You know that bit where after you said it didn't work I said "check your wiring"? :p
[10:34] <cuddykid> lol daveake
[10:34] <cuddykid> It came to me last night whilst I was trying to get to sleep lol
[10:35] <fsphil> you where visited by the pcb fairy?
[10:35] <cuddykid> still, that might just be 1 of many issues& I ripped one of the pads off the rfm22 - hopefully the solder joint is connected to the right bit thouhg
[10:35] <daveake> He received a signal
[10:35] <daveake> ck I hope you're documenting all this. I sense a book in the writing.
[10:35] <fsphil> hehe
[10:36] <cuddykid> lol
[10:37] <daveake> Chapter 1: "So you thought there were only 6 ways to wire a 3-wire component"
[10:37] <cuddykid> daveake: the egg is fantastic
[10:37] <cuddykid> hahaha
[10:37] <daveake> I'm glad you added that colon
[10:37] <cuddykid> lol
[10:37] <cuddykid> right, bbl
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[10:38] <number10> i was looking at you pics daveake - nice work - I noticed that the radials changed from green/yellow, to blue/white - is this for the woo woo effect
[10:38] <number10> +r
[10:38] <zyp> daveake, because you don't want to be fantastic?
[10:38] <daveake> No, that's the straws I added :)
[10:38] <fsphil> (am I the only one that, when someone adds a spelling correction, goes back to look for the mistake cause I never spotted it?)
[10:38] <daveake> Which you may not all have the blue stripe upwards.
[10:39] <daveake> note
[10:39] <fsphil> see, I did it again
[10:39] <daveake> lol
[10:39] <number10> lo
[10:39] <daveake> p.s. straws stolen from KFC
[10:39] <number10> +l
[10:39] <fsphil> arg
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[10:39] <navrac_> yep fsphil - also guilty of rereading here
[10:40] <navrac_> I got some 1m long straws from a party shop - just in case
[10:40] <number10> have you got lots of blue and brown cable left over daveake ?
[10:40] <daveake> What size aerial are you planning to make?
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[10:40] <daveake> number10 Probably, but that came off a reel
[10:41] <navrac_> a vertically hanging yagi? - I just saw them and thought they'd be useful
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[10:47] <andrew_apex> morning mfa298
[10:48] <mfa298> andrew_apex: someone rebooted the box my irc client runs on. However irssi is now configured to autojoin all my channels :D
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[10:49] <andrew_apex> :D
[10:50] <navrac_> I have decided I don't like radio amateurs.
[10:51] <navrac_> you can never get any radio equipment off ebay at a cheap price because its for spares or repair.
[10:52] <navrac_> the radio hams keep bidding the broken ones up as they can repair them
[10:53] <mfa298> it is possible to get good deals but is a challenge - took me a while to get the ham stuff I've got from ebay often lots of looking, bidding and being outbid
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[10:53] <navrac_> and they hold on to old stuff too long as well
[10:53] <navrac_> they sadly share all the bad habits I have....
[10:54] <mfa298> If there's a radio rally near you they can be a good source of things but you need to do some research first.
[10:55] <mfa298> the radio rallies should all be listed at http://www.rsgb.org/events/
[10:56] <navrac_> Its the hopeless optimism they have that gets me down- it seems like the best way to get a good price when selling ham gear is to break it, say you can't find the fault despite trying, cant get hold of the parts anymre and they take it as a challenge and will bid more for it than one that works.
[10:57] <daveake> Yeah, took me ages to get the AOR and ages to get the FT790R. You need patience. Plenty more come along you just need a bit of luck to get one at a decent price
[10:57] <mfa298> I think that can be a general thing for technology on ebay.
[10:57] <SpeedEvil> Indeed.
[10:58] <daveake> On the plus side, when you put it back on ebay, you may even turn a profit :)
[10:58] <navrac_> its definitely worse with ham stuff
[10:58] <mfa298> I've seen some computer type kit sell for more on ebay than it costs to buy new :S
[10:58] <daveake> yep
[10:58] <daveake> Saw that one at a real computer auction
[10:58] <navrac_> old hifi stuff thats broken can be had for pennies
[10:59] <mfa298> the other place that used to be worth a look is www.junksale.co.uk however it currently looks broken
[10:59] <mfa298> (at least I'm pretty sure that's the right site)
[10:59] <daveake> A used USA-voltage monitor. 2 people decided they wanted to save money, then got caught up in outbidding each other. The rest of the room watched on in amazement
[10:59] <navrac_> true - i wanted a spare fan and keyboard for my laptop so I thought I'd buy a broken oe to scavenge for bits - silly prices
[10:59] <gonzo_> you often se epeople caught up in bidding frenzy who don't stop to see if there is another item that is BIN for lower price
[11:00] <daveake> yep seen that too :)
[11:00] <daveake> What I do is decide the max I'll pay, then put that in with 10 secs to go.
[11:00] <daveake> If I lose I lose
[11:01] <mfa298> daveake: I usually try the same sort of trick. (sometimes I put in a much lower bid early on as well just to ensure I get useful reminder emails)
[11:01] <daveake> :)
[11:01] <gonzo_> I do same, but bid very early. If your id keeps coming back every time others nudge it up, sometimes they just go away and forget it
[11:01] <navrac_> I just want a decent 70cm receiver - something with lots of knobs and switches - failing that I'm going down the funcube route so I can stick one on the hill next to me and remote it back
[11:01] <daveake> I had about 50 watchers on my AOR. That doesn't always translate into a good price but I did sell it for more than I paid for it.
[11:02] <gonzo_> the fcd is a cracking little bit of kit, but can need filters in high rf environs
[11:02] <daveake> When I bought it it had a "faulty battery connector", fixed in minutes with a spring from a battery holder
[11:02] <andrew_apex> mfa298: I've ordered a 70cm preamp for tracking (as you suggested) - that way I don't have to run RG213 throughout the house :)
[11:02] <mfa298> the lots of knobs and switches is definitly a useful thing. I don't get on so well with all the menu's on the FT817 (although at least it's portable)
[11:02] <daveake> andrew_apex which pre-amp?
[11:03] <andrew_apex> daveake: http://g0mrf.com/432LNA.htm
[11:03] <GW8RAK> Can recommend that preamp. Works well.
[11:03] <daveake> Looks good
[11:04] <andrew_apex> I just need to find a box for it now :)
[11:04] <daveake> I have a different one on order. Still waiting -it's been weeks now. Might cancel and get that one
[11:04] <andrew_apex> As long as you can do SMD soldering, that one's great for £20
[11:05] <daveake> Well I've soldered 1 SMD to date :p
[11:06] <andrew_apex> you'll be fine than :D
[11:06] <GW8RAK> When you get to 70cms, SMD's are almost compulsory.
[11:06] <fsphil> is the G0MRF one a kit or pre-built?
[11:06] <navrac_> I hadn't seen that one - thanks for the tip. I looked at either the hugely expensive one or the kit one from vectronics
[11:06] <andrew_apex> A kit
[11:06] <mfa298> looks like it could be good.
[11:06] <fsphil> I have the ventronics kit, havne't built that
[11:06] <andrew_apex> The vectronics kit looks too simple to work well - it's only a couple of components
[11:07] <fsphil> that's my worry too
[11:07] <fsphil> it also needs manual winding of a coil
[11:07] <fsphil> which I know I'm going to mess up :)
[11:07] <navrac_> yep the tuning instructions look a bit like - 'poke it till it works'
[11:08] <gonzo_> i have a couple of mfr lna's too. Agree they are good
[11:08] <fsphil> the preamps will need a box to put in yea?
[11:08] <gonzo_> also quite wide band. Will work up to 2.4ghz reasonably too
[11:08] <daveake> I made one of this as a kid - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/82/SinclairMicromatic.jpg/502px-SinclairMicromatic.jpg
[11:08] <andrew_apex> fsphil: yup
[11:08] <gonzo_> but again beware if near a cellular site
[11:09] <fsphil> I'm near a pager site
[11:09] <number10> I made one of those aswell daveake
[11:09] <daveake> For best reception you had to push 2 components closer or further apart. That was a feedback loop to adjust the gain ....
[11:09] <fsphil> which gives my funcube dongle problems when connected to the colinear
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[11:09] <daveake> I could only get Radio 4 clearly on mine!
[11:10] <gonzo_> you could try a stub filter to get rid of the pagest, when you are rxing on 70cm
[11:10] <daveake> Used to listen to that on my paper-round :)
[11:10] <fsphil> nice
[11:11] <daveake> Last one on ebay went for £52!
[11:11] <daveake> Some for a lot less. Suddenly I want one :)
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[11:14] <navrac_> I guess if I get a funcube the nearest cellular site is 6 miles away, the nearest dvt or pager site is 20 miles away so the funcube might be ok without a filter
[11:14] <navrac_> and just use usb extensions rather than lmr400
[11:16] <fsphil> worth trying
[11:17] <mfa298> andrew_apex: one thing you might need to consider is how the pre-amp copes with tx (I've not checked all the web page yet so don't know if it's happy with tx or not). Although if you only want to rx on 70cms you might be able to make use of a duplexer and run two bits of rg58
[11:18] <andrew_apex> mfa298: txing will break it, plus I'm planning to power it over the coax (so making a power injector box). So I'll just have to unplug the mic and plug in the power injector and preamp when I want to track balloons.
[11:19] <fsphil> beware that controlling the radio via computer can also trigger tx
[11:19] <fsphil> fldigi seems to trigger tx when starting up
[11:21] Action: mfa298 wonders how easily you could add a rf relay to the design. You should then be able to configure the radio to switch the relay before it pushes out rf (usually such things are designed for running a linear)
[11:22] <gonzo_> a good soln is to put the antenna into a relay at the antenna and switch to a tx feeder and the preamp.
[11:23] <gonzo_> Then bring the preamp down separatly on it's own feeder
[11:23] <andrew_apex> are high power (say 50W) rf relays easily available?
[11:23] <andrew_apex> and would RG58 do for the preamp feeder?
[11:24] <gonzo_> then, if the preamp has a problem, you can still use the antenna directl via the tx feed
[11:24] <mfa298> that's what I was half thinking with the duplexer if there's less tx used on 70cms (and 70cms does seem mostly dead around here)
[11:24] <gonzo_> yep given enough gain in the preamp, rg58 would be fine
[11:24] <gonzo_> I use CT100 sat tv cable a lot (I mena a LOT)
[11:24] <gonzo_> for rx only feeders
[11:25] <gonzo_> yep that would be an idea
[11:25] <gonzo_> would also help get rid of pager interference
[11:26] <gonzo_> I have used an MRF preamp on my satellite mast, with a yagi next to it txing at 100watts
[11:26] <gonzo_> I used a duplexer to filter off the rf power picked up at 2mtrs, from the lna at 70c
[11:26] <gonzo_> 70cm
[11:27] <gonzo_> because otherwise the 2mtr tx would swamp the lna
[11:27] <gonzo_> andrew_apex, yep 50watt relays are pretty easilly available
[11:29] <gonzo_> the other way of wiring a system is, put a linear/preamp assy up at the mast (or in the loft). Then you can feed tx and rx up a single thinner coax.
[11:30] <gonzo_> again I do that. Have 50mtrs of rg213 (which is lossy at those lengths) to the sged, where the lna/PA's are.
[11:31] <gonzo_> if I feed 40watts at 70cm into that, 10watts gets to the shed, which is the req drive for the PA
[11:31] <gonzo_> and they have all the rf sensed switching already built in. Easy
[11:35] <craag> gonzo_: Does losing that much signal in the cable not ruin the SNR, as the preamp boosts both signal and noise?
[11:37] <daveake> Re the loft, roughly how much loss is there at 434MHz in putting a Yagi in the loft vs at the same height in free air?
[11:39] <SpeedEvil> Depends on the construction.
[11:39] <SpeedEvil> From almost zero to 100%
[11:39] <daveake> Helpful ;-)
[11:39] <craag> I don't see much difference in my loft at 1296MHz
[11:39] <daveake> Red tiles, if that helps :)
[11:40] <SpeedEvil> In general, you will also get distortion of the wavefront, not just attenuation, so the yagi won't perform as well, and the beam will be wider.
[11:40] <daveake> ta
[11:40] <craag> And I have red tiles too!
[11:40] <daveake> Just wondering ... don't really have the sapce for a yagi on a rotator :D
[11:40] <fsphil> tsk
[11:40] <SpeedEvil> There isn't really a good way, other than trying it.
[11:41] <SpeedEvil> As I understand it, even tiles vary.
[11:41] <SpeedEvil> And of course dampness matters.
[11:41] <daveake> yep
[11:41] <mfa298> one issue you might see more in the loft is that you'll be closer to other things that might impact the tuning of the antenna (especially larger bits of metal)
[11:41] <daveake> Like the TV aerials :)
[11:41] <gonzo_> Well, you cannot improve over the snr that you get at the antenna.
[11:41] <gonzo_> But at V/UHF, electronics are noisy. So when you feed that S/N into your radio, you now have the received S/N plus the radio noise.
[11:41] <gonzo_> what you are doing is amplifying the signal and noise, picged up at the antenna, so that the effect of the radio noise in less significant.
[11:41] <gonzo_> An LNA will add it's own noise, so you put that at the antenna, so that it will amplify the antenna signals before thay get attenuated by the feeder loss. So that the LNA noise contribution is less signiificant.
[11:41] <gonzo_> Hope that makes sense?
[11:42] <mfa298> but loft access is usually a lot easier - and keeps the neighbours happier.
[11:42] <marcozambi> @#pr3nd1l4@#
[11:42] <gonzo_> Yep, depends on the attenuation of the roof tiles dave. Wet tiles are worse
[11:42] <marcozambi> sorry
[11:42] <marcozambi> wrong windows
[11:42] <gonzo_> I have some satellite UHF antennas in my loft and get away withj it
[11:42] <andrew_apex> Preamp kit just arrived :D
[11:42] <fsphil> we'll pretend we didn't see it marcozambi :)
[11:43] <daveake> nice password
[11:43] <marcozambi> lol
[11:43] <gonzo_> but mossy roof I have would prob starty to soak up 70cm signals
[11:43] <SpeedEvil> Hide the yagi inside a large inflatable santa.
[11:43] <SpeedEvil> Job done.
[11:43] <marcozambi> one of the many I can invent :)
[11:43] <daveake> but not remember
[11:43] <marcozambi> with a little l33t
[11:43] <SpeedEvil> Everyone likes santa!
[11:43] <daveake> I could make a large tree
[11:44] <gonzo_> the scandinavians use fibreglass fake fur trees for cellular masts
[11:44] <zyp> do we?
[11:44] <gonzo_> for HAB work dave, put the yagi on a short mast in the garden. You don't really need height
[11:45] <gonzo_> the HAB has the height!
[11:45] <daveake> Well, height (here) does help a lot when the HAB gets a long way away. Damn round Earth :-)
[11:45] <gonzo_> well you make them zyp! assumes you woyuld use them too
[11:46] <gonzo_> a standard mast, then optional fake branches to match the surrouning trees. Clever
[11:46] <fsphil> the earth is often getting in the way of my plans
[11:46] <daveake> I thought you needed more earth and less sea ...
[11:46] <gonzo_> reality gets in the way of mine!
[11:46] <gonzo_> higher earth!
[11:46] <craag> gonzo_: I was under the belief that noise would also be picked up in that length of coax, and while I agree your layout of LNA, cable, rig is optimal - It does sound like it would help to run some lower-loss coax for the RX side.
[11:47] <craag> Just pinging the idea to see if I understand correctly!
[11:47] <Hix> "Damn round Earth" - I'm not falling for that old one
[11:48] <SpeedEvil> Noise 'cannot' be picked up in properly matched coax.
[11:48] <craag> Even with a non-perfect sheild?
[11:48] <SpeedEvil> hence the quotes.
[11:48] <craag> ah
[11:48] <andrew_apex> has anyone come across double screened coax before? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2m-RG213-Double-Screened-F8-/230755787626?pt=UK_ConsumerElectronics_SpecialistRadioEquipment_SM&hash=item35ba1de36a
[11:49] <SpeedEvil> It's really quite immune, in practice for normal ambient signal levels.
[11:49] <SpeedEvil> Essentially all 'satellite' coax is double screened
[11:49] <SpeedEvil> it's quite common
[11:49] <mfa298> not come accross double screen for rg213
[11:50] <mfa298> but it's common for the lower loss coaxes (I know westflex 103 has a copper foil screen)
[11:50] <craag> I use sat coax for 23cm RX, as the shielding is great. But the tx power handling is ~1W due to the foil..
[11:50] <craag> (and not much braid on it)
[11:51] <mfa298> I've come accross some things that suggest things with a foil screen arn't so good for things that get moved as the foil breaks more easily than the braid.
[11:51] <daveake> Yeah, I went for RG213 rather than W103 as my setup is temporary and needs to be put up and down a lot
[11:52] <daveake> Still a lot better than the RG58 it replaced
[11:52] <UpuWork> I got some W103
[11:52] <gonzo_> craig, yep low loss feeder helps even in the rx, but if you have enough gain in the preamp, you can get away with more loss in the rx feeder.
[11:52] <gonzo_> Coax should not pick up noise (unless it'a really crap!) but it adds loss. That means the level of sugnals (sig and noise) to reach the radio are lower. And so the relative level of the noise inside your radio will more signiificant.
[11:52] <gonzo_> So I put more gain in the LNA and use cheaper cable.
[11:52] <gonzo_> Also I use 70ohm ct100. That';s a mismatch, but with enough gain, it don't matter.
[11:52] <UpuWork> and sliced my finger on it
[11:52] <mfa298> putting the N plugs on W103 is a pain as well.
[11:52] <UpuWork> there are special N-Plugs for W103
[11:52] <fsphil> W103 a health hazard?
[11:52] <daveake> ouch
[11:53] <UpuWork> the copper foil sheild
[11:53] <UpuWork> is thick
[11:53] <UpuWork> and sharp
[11:53] <fsphil> the special plugs for W103 are really expensive
[11:53] <gonzo_> I think double screen 213 is called rg214?
[11:53] <UpuWork> mind you if a project is worth doing its worth bleeding over
[11:53] <UpuWork> all my finest creations have my blood on them somewhere
[11:53] <mfa298> I've got 103 with the special plugs. I think the worst bit I found was soldering the pin to the inner core. The conductor is just a large heatsink :(
[11:53] <UpuWork> yeah
[11:54] <daveake> UpuWork Ah, so the pink paint/tape is so the blood doesn't show up?
[11:54] <craag> gonzo_: Ok, thanks for explaining. I'd probably go for more expensive coax and simpler LNA, but of course it isn't as much fun that way ;)
[11:56] <craag> Has anyone tried ecoflex cable? http://www.diodecomms.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=28
[11:56] <gonzo_> NP craag. Also for a terrestrial antenna, you don't need super low noise LNAs. As the antenna is rxing a lot of local thermal noise as it is
[11:57] <mfa298> I've not tried it but I've seen it recommended elsewhere.
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[12:02] <Hix> UpuWork, http://proto-pic.co.uk/crimping-tool-0-1-1-0-mm-capacity-16-28-awg/
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[13:15] <NigelMoby> htm kinetic energy of a falling object is 1/2 mass x V2 ?
[13:15] <Randomskk> well
[13:15] <Randomskk> yes
[13:15] <Randomskk> KE is ½mv²
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[13:17] <NigelMoby> brill tnx Adam, I do have some brain cells left after all!
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[13:20] <fsphil> can I have some?
[13:20] <NigelMoby> cost ya ...
[13:20] <NigelMoby> 50p each
[13:20] Action: fsphil looks at the big bottle full of pennies
[13:20] <NigelMoby> lol nooo way!!
[13:26] <NigelMoby> hrm what component uses measurement of nh?
[13:28] <Randomskk> inductor
[13:28] <Randomskk> nanohenries
[13:28] <Randomskk> (properly nH)
[13:28] <NigelMoby> aha yup was nH
[13:28] <NigelMoby> tnx!
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[13:34] <NigelMoby> Ello cuddykid
[13:34] <NigelMoby> pcbs?
[13:34] <cuddykid> nope :(
[13:34] <cuddykid> emailed them and they got back
[13:34] <NigelMoby> oh ?
[13:34] <cuddykid> they said wait a few more days
[13:34] <NigelMoby> meh
[13:35] <cuddykid> apparently there was a massive shipping backlog in HK
[13:35] <cuddykid> yet they left HK on the 8th!
[13:35] <cuddykid> argh
[13:35] <NigelMoby> oh
[13:35] <NigelMoby> they maybe held up at customs
[13:36] <cuddykid> yep
[13:38] <cuddykid> just got informed that for most mornings next week I will need to be in the office by 6:40am - ouch
[13:40] <NigelMoby> Eugh sod that
[13:40] <cuddykid> and won't be finished until 9ish most evenings
[13:41] <NigelMoby> how nice of them
[13:43] <kokey> cuddykid: sucks
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[14:04] <eroomde> cuddykid: why?
[14:05] <gonzo_> money is the usual answer!
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[14:43] <griffonbot> Received email: MikeB "[UKHAS] Volume, altitude and lift tables?"
[14:44] <griffonbot> Received email: Adrian Hicks "Re: [UKHAS] Volume, altitude and lift tables?"
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[15:20] <cuddykid> eroomde: JP Morgan spring week
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[15:40] <kokey> cuddykid: what do you do for spring week, attend?
[15:43] <cuddykid> kokey: shadow on chosen desks, participate in group events with senior people, network etc
[15:44] <cuddykid> just a leader into intern next year
[15:48] <Hix> cuddykid, Dictionary definition 2."Confine (someone) as a prisoner, esp. for political or military reasons"
[15:48] <Hix> :D
[15:48] <cuddykid> lol
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[15:49] <eroomde> oh right
[15:49] <eroomde> they're breaking you in gently then
[15:50] <cuddykid> yeah :/
[15:50] <eroomde> i'm not being sarcastic either
[15:50] <cuddykid> that's the scary thing!
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[15:52] <Hix> makes my hours seem reasonable
[15:53] <eroomde> mmm i got rather put off banking early on
[15:54] <eroomde> happier with rockets
[15:54] <SpeedEvil> Bringing the two together is generally frowned on. As you're only supposed to blow the bloody doors off.
[15:54] <cuddykid> the whole silicon valley career still hugely appeals - I guess I can use the week to see if it's something I want to do or not
[15:56] <eroomde> mmm
[15:56] <eroomde> it'll be a useful experience
[15:56] <eroomde> do some interviews for things you don't want too
[15:56] <kokey> I ended up in banking
[15:56] <eroomde> it's very useful
[15:56] <fsphil> there are fates worse than banking
[15:56] <kokey> I think if money was less important to me, I wouldn't have done so
[15:57] <cuddykid> I guess it's the trade off between sleep and money
[15:57] <eroomde> i did a couple of management consultancy interview processes (bizarrely long and involved) and because i didn't want either of the jobs i could do and say riskier things just as an experiment
[15:57] <cuddykid> yep
[15:57] <kokey> I've worked for an audit/consultancy firm before
[15:57] <kokey> it was very dull
[15:57] <eroomde> it worked, depressingly. i got offers from both
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[15:58] <eroomde> just for being what i perceived as a bit of a arse
[15:58] <cuddykid> nice eroomde!
[15:58] <Hix> :D
[15:58] <fsphil> depressingly? I'd be chuffed :)
[15:58] <NigeyS> eroomde
[15:58] <eroomde> no, it doesn't restore my faith in humanity or consultants
[15:58] <NigeyS> Q about you're board
[15:58] <NigeyS> why did you change to Tantalum caps?
[15:59] <eroomde> i would ask for some salary and they'd say 'er well, the average starting salary is...' and i'd cut them off with something like 'well if you want to pay an average salary then hire an average person'
[15:59] <eroomde> i mean it was all just rugger club, greed is good BS
[15:59] <eroomde> but it went down a storm
[15:59] <cuddykid> haha brilliant
[16:00] <Randomskk> enjoy turning them down then? :P
[16:00] <cuddykid> bbl
[16:00] <eroomde> not really. I just thanked them (sincerely) with a note for the opportunity to interview with them
[16:00] <eroomde> but that I wanted to persue other interests
[16:01] <eroomde> and now I am working on Skylon and the world is a happy place
[16:01] <fsphil> As long as the next project isn't Cylon
[16:01] <SpeedEvil> Naah.
[16:01] <SpeedEvil> Skynet.
[16:01] <eroomde> and i can get into work at 11am on my bike, and spend a large percentage of my time working on personal projects. Sure the money is nowhere near as good but I can still afford to go out in london every now and then.
[16:02] <fsphil> Skynet was dumb- cylons just nuked the entire planet
[16:02] <eroomde> the only thing is A HOUSE DEPOSIT BBBBAAAAAAARRGH
[16:02] <eroomde> but i don't think about that
[16:02] <NigeyS> oo the dreaded D word
[16:02] <cuddykid> eroomde: don't tempt me!
[16:03] <eroomde> NigeyS: most solidly attached to the board :)
[16:03] <Randomskk> smt electrolytics are an annoying pain, I either use pth or ideally ceramics and tants
[16:04] <Randomskk> also tants have some other nicer properties wrt esr and dC/dV
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[16:04] <NigeyS> ahh right
[16:05] <eroomde> it's always there though if i have a change of heart. that's the nice thing. my masters was is machine learning and general bayesian inference stuff, and i have a few friends working at algorithmic funds that do that kind of thing. it's good to have a qualification in the bag if i need but right now it's time for a space plane
[16:05] <eroomde> the iron is hot
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[16:05] <Randomskk> oh eroomde I fixed wombat's radio
[16:06] <Randomskk> it appears to be operating perfectly as expected now
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[16:06] <Randomskk> essentially just swapped the vco external tank inductor for a wirewound one a few nH less
[16:06] <eroomde> also https://twitter.com/#!/RocketEngines/status/181472077822435328
[16:06] <Randomskk> hah
[16:07] <eroomde> Randomskk: ok that's good news
[16:07] <eroomde> i had a fascinating thing to build last week
[16:08] <eroomde> a precise, varyable load for a SMPS
[16:09] <eroomde> so it needed a fast respose (which ruled out just wiring it up to a linear reg with feedbac across a sense resistor or something)
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[16:09] <eroomde> also my boss was doing a really really high speed circuit and getting annoyed at how laser trimmed 0805 parts have miles too much capacitance and inductance
[16:09] <eroomde> that was all a bit woo to me
[16:09] <eroomde> but interesting
[16:10] chris_99 (~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929) joined #highaltitude.
[16:10] <eroomde> analogue electronics is pretty cool. wish I'd done more at uni
[16:13] <Randomskk> they are
[16:13] <Randomskk> 0805s are massive :P
[16:14] <fsphil> hah
[16:14] <Randomskk> I wish we had more good analogue electronics courses available
[16:14] <Randomskk> 3B1 was really good but frankly not very in depth
[16:23] <WillDuckworth> where are you working these days eroomde?
[16:31] <SpeedEvil> (04:01:07 PM) eroomde: and now I am working on Skylon and the world is a happy place
[16:32] <SpeedEvil> https://twitter.com/#!/RocketEngines/status/181472077822435328 also
[16:34] <eroomde> the latter being incontravertible evidence
[16:36] <SpeedEvil> It looks more like a SR71 to me.
[16:37] <Hix> would this be any use as the base for a flight computer?
[16:37] <Hix> http://mrmodchips.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=61&products_id=808#!prettyPhoto[pp_gal]/0/
[16:38] <SpeedEvil> Sure.
[16:39] <SpeedEvil> I would guess it relies on its own bootloader
[16:42] <Hix> found it accidentally whilst searching for a FCC cable breakout
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[16:43] Action: UpuWork pokes CovBalloon
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[16:47] <fsphil> poked too hard
[16:47] <daveake> fail
[16:47] <Hix> pop
[16:48] <daveake> jim
[16:48] <daveake> oops
[16:48] <UpuWork> lol
[16:51] <r2x0t> Hix: interesting board... and cheap: http://www.ck3.co.uk/minimus-avr-usb-development-board.html
[16:51] <Hix> is seeedstudio my best bet for cheap development boards?
[16:53] <Hix> r2x0t, that got blocked by work for some innane reason - I'll look later
[16:53] <Hix> ta
[16:53] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[16:53] <Hix> oops
[16:53] <Hix> 2* thank you = goodbye apparently
[16:53] <r2x0t> they have non-32 version for £4.95
[16:53] <daveake> "To enter the bootloader mode you should simply press and hold HWB button, then press and release the RST button." ... well that sounds like a PITA
[16:54] <r2x0t> or 32 version for £7.95
[16:54] <daveake> If that's every time you program it, that's gonna get old very quickly
[16:54] <r2x0t> well, may be PITA for programming
[16:54] <r2x0t> but also means no delay to run bootloader when you don't need it
[16:54] <daveake> Which is what you're going to be doing. A lot.
[16:55] <Randomskk> the normal delay really isn't much of an issue
[16:55] <Randomskk> compared to how annoying that procedure would rapidly get
[16:55] <r2x0t> heh... yes
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[16:57] <Hix> any recommendations on where to get pcb's done? 1/2 off
[16:59] <Randomskk> seeedstudio.com and iteadstudio.com
[17:00] <cuddykid> seed - if you want to wait over a month select their cheapest shipping :)
[17:00] <Randomskk> yea with both if you select the very cheap shipping you're talking 2-4 weeks on average
[17:00] <Randomskk> sometimes longer if you're unfortunate
[17:01] <Randomskk> if you pay more for shipping then shipping costs as much as the PCBs, but given how very very very cheap the PCBs are anyway it's still worthwhile
[17:01] <Randomskk> (like $10 for 10)
[17:01] <cuddykid> bike chain just completely snapped :(
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[17:02] <cuddykid> anyone know roughly how much it is for a new chain/and fitted?
[17:02] <daveake> fix it
[17:02] <cuddykid> daveake: that involves getting hands dirty.. lol
[17:03] <number10> http://www.wiggle.co.uk/?s=cain+links
[17:03] <number10> including type :)
[17:03] <number10> typo
[17:03] <daveake> no wonder you found it so quickly :)
[17:04] <NigeyS> lol
[17:04] <number10> wiggle search has build in babel.c
[17:04] <Hix> cool i'll look at them links
[17:04] <number10> built --- I give up
[17:04] <daveake> lol
[17:07] <number10> I thought I was going to get an embarrassing moment a few years back when I mistyped the search engine hotbot.com, as hotbot.co.uk ... fortunately it was a hot water bottle site
[17:09] <Randomskk> hotbod, on the other hand...
[17:09] <number10> i dare not type it
[17:12] <number10> is it a dodgy site NigeyS
[17:15] <daveake> Years ago we needed a new washing machine or something, and there was a local electrical shop called Power Station, so I typed their name then .co.uk. That was an eye-opener
[17:15] <Randomskk> hah
[17:15] <daveake> (was for gentleman of a certain persuasion)
[17:15] <Hix> whoa - is cheap as chips 10 x 5cm x 5cm $9.90 +4.00 Shipping
[17:16] <Randomskk> yea.
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[17:17] <Hix> Happy to wait 30 day for shipment as I cant code for toffee yet so I can learn a little before making stuff
[17:19] <Hix> it'd just be nice to get the GSM linked to a breadboard to test
[17:20] <Hix> unless anyone has any ideas as to how to get a Hirose DF12 header linked. too small to wire methinks
[17:21] <daveake> Hix What will you be using the GSM for?
[17:23] Lunar_LanderU (~kglinka@cip22.informatik.uni-osnabrueck.de) joined #highaltitude.
[17:23] <Hix> well at some point it will spit out GPS co-ords when on ground. But I'd like to play with it for other ideas too
[17:23] <Lunar_LanderU> hello
[17:23] <Hix> abend Lunar_LanderU
[17:23] <Lunar_LanderU> hi Hix
[17:23] <Lunar_LanderU> everything good?
[17:24] <Hix> I'm at work..... -ve
[17:24] <daveake> OK, for the GPS, if you get it to send out the rttty string then I have a Windows program that will receive those messages (via a mobile phone) then upload the telemetry to spacenear for you
[17:24] <Lunar_LanderU> ah
[17:25] <Hix> daveake, cool - sounds interesting how does all this work then?
[17:26] <Hix> Lunar_LanderU, all good with you?
[17:26] <daveake> The PC prog just polls the phone for messages, then when it sees one that looks like telemetry it uploads it to havhub so it ends up on spacenear just like any normal dl-fldigi receivers.
[17:26] <daveake> See http://www.daveakerman.com/?page_id=338
[17:27] <daveake> So you get your payload to send the telemetry string to that particular mobile phone
[17:27] <daveake> At some point I'll have it use an online SMS service, but this works and is free at the receiving end use any old PAYG SIM card
[17:28] <daveake> I'll be running this for real on Saturday (winds permitting). My payload has an SMS module and a Tesco PAYG SIM with 5000 texts for £5
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[17:30] <Lunar_LanderU> Hix: , yes thanks
[17:30] <Hix> daveake, that's cool. Like your thinking there. The wavecom look pretty similar to the Siemens
[17:30] <Hix> looks
[17:31] <Lunar_LanderU> Udin_SHARP: what happened to your flight?
[17:31] <daveake> Yeah, I just happened to have a Wavecom sat around from a previous project. The Siemens is the one everyone uses
[17:32] <Udin_SHARP> Lunar_Lander: We had some problem with the comms module on the day so we had to postpone
[17:33] <Lunar_LanderU> oh ok
[17:33] <Udin_SHARP> but its all fixed now so we should be going up next saturday
[17:33] <Upu> err
[17:34] <Upu> what frequency ?
[17:34] <daveake> You realise that Upu and I are launching 3 payloads on Saturday?
[17:34] <Randomskk> haha this has been a busy few weeks
[17:34] <Randomskk> oh maybe I'll put wombat up on saturday too
[17:34] <daveake> :)
[17:34] <Upu> you can put wombat up but some of us are using NTX2s
[17:34] <Randomskk> I think I've perfected getting the radio to transmit across all of 433-435MHz :P
[17:34] <daveake> lol
[17:34] <fsphil> wiiiiide band
[17:35] <Udin_SHARP> as far as I remember its 434.650
[17:35] <Upu> oh thats ok then...no wait HAHA
[17:35] <Hix> looks like a busy weekend may have to dig out the gaffer tape for my antenna rig :)
[17:35] <Randomskk> more seriously some soldering this morning in the lab and I think it's now working properly
[17:35] <Upu> thats what Ava2 is on
[17:35] <Randomskk> so another test flight is definitely in its immediate future
[17:35] <Randomskk> but probably not saturday
[17:36] <fsphil> what time to you intend to launch Udin_SHARP? perhaps ava will be down by the time you're going up
[17:36] <Upu> Ava2 isn't quite on 650 actually 647.500 but could drigy
[17:36] <Upu> drift
[17:37] <Upu> can you get some plans together and come speak to us please Udin_SHARP
[17:37] <Udin_SHARP> not entirely sure yet but if you tell us when you launch I am pretty sure we can work around
[17:37] <Udin_SHARP> will do
[17:37] <fsphil> this is the rfm22b's big advantage :)
[17:38] <Upu> afk a few
[17:38] <Randomskk> or any other frequency programmable radio ;P
[17:38] <fsphil> ok, the ntx2's big disadvantage :p
[17:39] <number10> good to make up two payloads if on NTX2
[17:39] <daveake> The cloud/ava flight will be carrying the Radiometrix logo, so we can't really be putting up an rfm22b on that :D
[17:39] <fsphil> lol
[17:39] <number10> lol
[17:40] <Hix> daveake, if everyone uses the Siemens, is there a breakout for the 40 pin FCC that it uses? Has anyone hads any made?
[17:40] <Hix> had
[17:41] <daveake> No idea. I know you can buy them on breakout boards. Never used one so I don't know, sorry.
[17:41] <Hix> hmm seem to be like hens teeth..
[17:43] <Hix> anyone using Siemens TC35 out there?
[17:44] <Udin_SHARP> Upu and daveake we haven't decided yet if we will actually launch on saturday yet. We might launch on Sunday instead. If you let us know when you are launching we will work around it.
[17:45] <Lunar_LanderU> see you later maybe
[17:45] <daveake> Depends on the winds of course, so we won't know till the end of the week.
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[17:46] <Udin_SHARP> sure np
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[17:47] <OZ1SKY_Brian> hi
[17:48] <number10> hi OZ1SKY_Brian
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[17:52] <OZ1SKY_Brian> wonder if anyone every tryed to launch wlan with a ballon?
[17:54] <MrCraig> OZ1SKY_Brian I don't think it's legal.
[17:54] <eroomde> i think you'd need a huge dish on the ground
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[17:57] <r2x0t> it would be doable
[17:57] <OZ1SKY_Brian> yes it will need a parabolic at the rx site
[17:57] <r2x0t> patch antenna on baloon
[17:57] <r2x0t> 1m dish or bigger on ground
[17:57] <OZ1SKY_Brian> but if you calculate freespace loss, it should be possible
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[17:57] <r2x0t> you can use 5GHz for higher antenna gain
[17:57] <OZ1SKY_Brian> freespace loss at 2.4ghz for 50km is about 135dB
[17:58] <OZ1SKY_Brian> about 6dB more on 5gigs
[17:58] <MrCraig> Wouldn't you need a public network operators license (uk at least) in order to do it?
[17:58] <r2x0t> I don't think they care
[17:58] <OZ1SKY_Brian> dont know about the UK
[17:58] <r2x0t> ISM band is already so full of crap
[17:59] <Udin_SHARP> I am pretty sure you can. We are using Xbees on our platform
[17:59] <r2x0t> if you want beacon, you can tie microwave oven to a baloon :)
[17:59] <Randomskk> haha
[17:59] <Randomskk> and have line of sight to every wifi point in the country
[17:59] <craag> You'd want to use 5GHz for a little 'fresher air' I reckon.
[18:00] <r2x0t> 5GHz works very nicely
[18:00] <OZ1SKY_Brian> Randomskk you will not hear much from the ground at 30-35km alt, remeber 99% og the AP on the ground are indoor
[18:00] <r2x0t> with latest cards, you can use narrow channel (5MHz)
[18:01] <craag> This new 802.11ac standard with a few mimo antennas would probably work quite well.
[18:01] <r2x0t> for mimo, you can use two dishes
[18:01] <OZ1SKY_Brian> r2x0t mikrotik is great for custom BW and modes
[18:01] <r2x0t> exactly
[18:01] <r2x0t> good thing about wifi is it changes rate depending on signal level
[18:02] <OZ1SKY_Brian> been running a mikrotik link for 2½years, it NEVER had to be rebooted
[18:02] <r2x0t> so you may be able to get live video to some altitude
[18:02] <r2x0t> then just telemetry or slower video
[18:02] <r2x0t> etc.
[18:03] <OZ1SKY_Brian> mikrotik gear is extremely reliable.
[18:03] <craag> mimo would also allow you to position antennas around the payload to avoid polarity/spinning issues I reckon.
[18:04] <r2x0t> craag: best would be to use circular polarized antennas
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[18:04] <OZ1SKY_Brian> yes like a 4xbiquad
[18:04] <r2x0t> if two, one RHCP another LHCP
[18:04] <r2x0t> then same pair on ground as a feed for dishes
[18:05] <craag> Ok, if you're using dishes for rx that makes sense.
[18:05] <r2x0t> space is limited only for payload
[18:05] <craag> I had yagis on the mind..
[18:05] <r2x0t> so on ground... go as big as you can :)
[18:07] <OZ1SKY_Brian> r2x0t mikrotik just made a 27dbm 5gig card, that should do it :-)
[18:08] <mfa298> just read the stuff in IR2030 and that suggests that 2400-2483MHz is good for airborne but limited to 10mW eirp.
[18:08] <OZ1SKY_Brian> single chain, so mo stupid signal devider etc.
[18:08] <OZ1SKY_Brian> mo-no
[18:09] <craag> mfa298: Is 5GHz covered in there?
[18:09] <mfa298> 5725-5875 with 25mW eirp
[18:10] <mfa298> can't remember off hand if that matches the 802.11a band
[18:10] <r2x0t> yes, that is higher A band
[18:11] <mfa298> could be interesting to look at using 869.40-869.65MHz as that has 500mW eirp. Although I guess recievers could be more fun
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[18:12] <mfa298> although it's low bandwidth (<25Khz)
[18:12] <mfa298> and <10% duty cycle
[18:12] <r2x0t> there is RFM50 module
[18:12] <r2x0t> for 860MHz
[18:12] <r2x0t> and 100mW
[18:13] <r2x0t> but <10%... bursts sucks
[18:13] <OZ1SKY_Brian> for tracking 434 is better
[18:14] <OZ1SKY_Brian> easyer to come by radios and antennas for 434, 860 will limit the tracking stations alot
[18:15] <mfa298> Although I like how the airborne use notes are in the "General Non-Specific Short Range Devices" section of IR2030.
[18:15] <OZ1SKY_Brian> and running both 434 and 869 could give alot of problems, since it the 2nd harmonic
[18:16] <craag> r2x0t: What is the rough gain in dBd for a reasonable dish at 5Ghz?
[18:16] <OZ1SKY_Brian> my 70-90cm got 31dbi
[18:17] <OZ1SKY_Brian> 70x90cm
[18:17] <OZ1SKY_Brian> so the datasheet say anyway :-)
[18:17] <craag> Cheers.
[18:18] <OZ1SKY_Brian> http://wimo.de/download/18685_5.pdf
[18:18] <craag> Hmm, a random wlan path calculator I found says it won't work, by about 12 dB.
[18:18] <mfa298> OZ1SKY_Brian: I was thinking the same about the rx side. Finding things that rx around 860mhz is much harder. (I can't remember if my handheld does. It's fairly wideband but I think there's something around 800Mhz blocked out)
[18:18] <craag> (5GHz, at 50km)
[18:19] <OZ1SKY_Brian> 12db what, signal margin?
[18:20] <craag> Yep.
[18:20] <OZ1SKY_Brian> mfa298 yeah 860 is not a very good freq for ready as is gear.
[18:20] <OZ1SKY_Brian> craag 12db signal margin is ALOT
[18:21] <OZ1SKY_Brian> craag what parameter do they use, since they say 12db, 300mbit ?
[18:21] <craag> The calculation comes out at -2 dB margin, the text states that ideally >10dB is needed for a reliable link.
[18:21] <craag> I don't think it's a supremely accurate calculation..
[18:22] <OZ1SKY_Brian> craag yes but what is a reliable link, theres a huge difference from 5MHz 2mbit linkup to 40MHz 300mbit linkup
[18:22] <craag> This is what I found: http://huizen.deds.nl/~pa0hoo/helix_wifi/linkbudgetcalc/wlan_budgetcalc.html
[18:23] <craag> OZ1SKY_Brian: I really don't know, and I'm not sure whether this result is useful at all!
[18:23] <Hix> daveake, just got this - saves arsing around trying to connect things up initially
[18:23] <Hix> http://www.sainsmart.com/module/gps-gprs-gsm-module/siemens-tc35-sms-gsm-module-voice-adapter.html
[18:23] <Hix> then I can use the bare TC35 I've got coming on a custom board at a later date :)
[18:24] <OZ1SKY_Brian> craag those calculator normaly take 20MHz BW as a standard. With gear like mikrotik you can go down to 5MHz BW, that will give you about 6dB more signal margin.
[18:24] <daveake> Hix Yeah, go for that.
[18:24] <craag> Ah right.. that starts to make it look more hopeful!
[18:26] <OZ1SKY_Brian> Now if i remember correct, each time you dubble the bandwith you loose 3dB, but that also count for the RX, so in total from 20MHz to 5MHz you gain 12dB. Correct me if im wrong.
[18:27] <Hix> daveake, have done. £20.13 including china snail post
[18:27] <Hix> Can't grumble at that
[18:27] <daveake> :)
[18:28] <Randomskk> OZ1SKY_Brian: why does doubling the bandwidth used lose you SNR?
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[18:29] <Randomskk> oh, constant power, stupid question.
[18:29] <craag> Your power is more spread out.
[18:29] <Randomskk> yea. I'm not sure that counts again at RX though.
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[18:30] <OZ1SKY_Brian> Randomskk the channel power is the same, but your SNR will drop 3dB
[18:30] Cameron_ (~Cameron@host213-120-40-182.range213-120.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[18:30] <Cameron_> hello
[18:31] <x-f> hi
[18:31] <OZ1SKY_Brian> Randomskk the RX sensitivity drops the wider BW you need to cover
[18:32] <Randomskk> well yes but isn't that the same thing?
[18:33] <Randomskk> also I don't think it's generally true that for constant power, doubling the bandwidth halves the SNR
[18:33] <Randomskk> it depends on your modulation and decoder
[18:33] <Randomskk> if you're doing wifi with ofdm and add a ton more subcarriers at larger bandwidth then yes, sure
[18:33] <Cameron_> as a school project we've been working on something called project stratos; http://www.projectstratos.com/ stratos 1 was a failure, stratos 2 went well, we sent a high altitude balloon to the edge of space and got pictures and videos back.. stratos 3 will be launching this year which will record things such as pressure, temperature
[18:33] <Cameron_> i'm in charge of stratos 3 which will launch in the summer of 2013
[18:33] <Cameron_> but i need some ideas
[18:33] <Randomskk> Cameron_: you got cut off after "pressure, temperature" on that first message
[18:34] <Randomskk> or maybe that was the end of your message
[18:34] <Cameron_> i know that was the end of the message
[18:34] <Cameron_> lol
[18:34] <Randomskk> ah fair enough
[18:34] <Cameron_> *im in charge of stratos 4
[18:34] <Upu> well pressure there isn't much up there and temperature is cold
[18:34] <Cameron_> but yeah, i need ideas as to what to do! it's a relativly low budget project
[18:35] <Cameron_> i know Upu, i don't really have much to do with stratos 3, i just want stratos 4 to be awesome!! haha
[18:35] <Upu> paint it pink job done
[18:35] <Cameron_> lol
[18:36] <Cameron_> would pictures of the night sky work?
[18:36] <Cameron_> or not..
[18:36] <Cameron_> i'm thinking because it would be clear passed the atmostphere
[18:36] <OZ1SKY_Brian> Randomskk when you widen the BW you will collect more noice, so your SNR will drop
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[18:37] <Randomskk> OZ1SKY_Brian: it depends on the decoder and how you use the additional bandwidth
[18:37] <OZ1SKY_Brian> Randomskk if you can keep the channel power the some its ok, but not if the tx power is the same
[18:37] <Randomskk> I could do 2FSK with like 20MHz shift if my rx is filtering out the rest
[18:37] <Randomskk> though for obvious reasons that would be silly :P
[18:38] <OZ1SKY_Brian> if your channel power for a 5MHz signal is 10dbm, at 20MHz you will only have 7dbm
[18:38] <OZ1SKY_Brian> sorry at 10MHz
[18:39] <Randomskk> that's only the case if you transmit equally throughout the entire channel
[18:40] <Randomskk> well alternatively it depends on how you measure bandwidth, but crucially it still really depends on encoding
[18:40] <OZ1SKY_Brian> ofcause, if its analog video and audio is another storry
[18:41] <OZ1SKY_Brian> but then you cant compair it, because a analog channel is not 6/8MHz wide, if we talk about channel power. In that case you need to measure the video signal, audio, nicam ect. to get the channel power.
[18:42] <Randomskk> sure, agreed, but I'm still talking about digital
[18:42] <Randomskk> the point of 5MHz channels is to pack more of them into the same spectrum, at the cost of a lower data rate
[18:43] <OZ1SKY_Brian> Randomskk ok, but then i dont see why you would have a 20MHz BW if you only use 50% of it?
[18:43] <Randomskk> if you had a 20MHz channel with the same data rate then your SNR shouldn't be that adversely affected -- certainly not 6dB down
[18:43] <Randomskk> the SNR is a function of the energy per bit and the noise power spectral density
[18:43] <Randomskk> energy per bit depends on data rate as well as power
[18:43] <OZ1SKY_Brian> SNR is a analog measuremt, nothing to do with digital signal, thats MER and BER rates
[18:44] <Randomskk> sorry, probability of symbol error is a function of energy per bit and noise PSD
[18:44] <OZ1SKY_Brian> and that dependt of the code you use, QAM QPSK COFDM OFDM etc.
[18:44] <Randomskk> for QAM
[18:44] <Randomskk> OFDM is just lots of QAM
[18:44] <Randomskk> well
[18:44] <Randomskk> it's lots of whatever
[18:45] <Randomskk> in the case of most wifi, lots of qam.
[18:45] <Randomskk> but the results are basically the same for qam, qpsk, etc, they all basically come down to Eb/N0
[18:46] <OZ1SKY_Brian> im not talking about bit faults or bit error rates, just simple SNR or C/N
[18:46] <Randomskk> basically I'm saying that really you want to drop the data rate to get a better link budget, rather than the bandwidth
[18:46] <OZ1SKY_Brian> Randomskk sure if you go from 54mbit to 11mbit on 20MHz what will help, but if you also lower the BW than also helps alot
[18:47] <Randomskk> if you maintain the same bit rate then dropping the channel bandwidth in ofdm just reduces total data rate
[18:47] <Randomskk> are you lowering the bandwidth and keeping the same total data rate?
[18:47] <Randomskk> like, 11Mbps on 20MHz, but also 11Mbps on 5MHz?
[18:47] <OZ1SKY_Brian> im not talking about any data rates, the talk was about signal margin :-)
[18:49] <Randomskk> well yes but you can't ignore the data rates -- if you swap from 20MHz channels to 5MHz channels you either up the symbol rate or decrease the data rate
[18:49] <OZ1SKY_Brian> as you dont need 11mbit for a video/tlm downlink, then you can afford to go lower in datarate and then the 5MHz BW comes into play and that will incress your signal margin alot
[18:50] <Randomskk> and doing either affects whether you can get a successful link
[18:50] <Hix> Cameron_, you would struggle to get deecent night sky pics as the shutter speed would need to be too slow
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[18:50] <Cameron_> yeah that's what i was thinking :/
[18:50] <OZ1SKY_Brian> Randomskk i can ignore the datarates as i dont need 11mbit
[18:50] <Cameron_> i heard somewhere about how they made the balloon hover? how? lol
[18:51] <OZ1SKY_Brian> Randomskk but ok to be clear, if we lower the BW we also lower the datarate, yes, but we also incress the signal margin
[18:51] <Randomskk> sure, I agree
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[18:52] <Randomskk> but we can also increase the signal margin by lowering the data rate and keeping the same channel bandwidth
[18:52] <Randomskk> the SNR at the receiver is a function of bit energy / noise PSD, the latter is essentially constant over the channel, the former depends on total power but also bit rate
[18:53] <Hix> Cameron_, i guess they were talking about when th eballoon fails to gain altitude and hovers at a height, but it will still rotate and sway from the footage ive seen
[18:54] <Hix> someone on here was talking about a stabilised platform, think it was eroomde?
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[18:55] <mfa298> I did wonder if you could stabalise the payload with a gyroscope (or two) but I suspect that could significantly add to the weight and power requirements.
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[19:02] <Hix> Cameron_, http://habhub.org/zeusbot/logs_highlighted/highaltitude.log.20120301.html look at 22:45 onwards
[19:03] <Hix> right I'm about to exeunt from the office. cu in a bit
[19:04] <r2x0t> if you want to stabilize just to take photos, not videos
[19:05] <r2x0t> it may be easier to use acceleration sensor
[19:05] <r2x0t> then fire camere when movement is minimal
[19:05] <fsphil> I'm thinking of doing a bit of astrophotography with that method
[19:05] <r2x0t> also it may be possible to use it to get photograps only in some directions
[19:05] <Hix> but you're lookng at shutter speeds iro seconds
[19:06] <r2x0t> astro photography.... that will be big and heavy gyro
[19:06] <fsphil> nah, cheapy digital camera
[19:06] <fsphil> many can do exposures up to 60 seconds
[19:06] <r2x0t> I mean the stabilizing system
[19:06] <r2x0t> to keep it stable for 60 seconds
[19:06] <fsphil> sure they'll not be terribly good, but that's not my aim
[19:06] <Hix> though th idea of 3 aixs sensor and compass would be pretty good for sharper pics
[19:07] <fsphil> I'm not keeping it still for 60 seconds -- the sensor detects when the payload is still, opens the shutter until it detects it moving again
[19:07] <r2x0t> launching accel sensor would be interesting for payload
[19:07] <fsphil> the exposure time will be random
[19:07] <r2x0t> but needs faster downlink then just 1/sec
[19:07] <r2x0t> maybe just store data on sd card
[19:07] <fsphil> yea
[19:08] <r2x0t> I'm still looking at scaling up my modulation idea
[19:08] <r2x0t> to max rate of RFM22B
[19:08] <r2x0t> ie. 128kbit
[19:08] <r2x0t> then deal with the high rate on ground with big antennas
[19:08] <r2x0t> this rate would be high enough to send photos in realtime
[19:09] <r2x0t> or ugly video
[19:09] <Randomskk> how would you encode the data?
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[19:09] <Hix> right I'm out of this godfosaken office - l8r
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[19:09] Action: Randomskk is also toying with ideas for transmitting images, though still with amateur radio RX
[19:10] <r2x0t> will need something faster than Pic/Atmel... maybe ARM one
[19:10] <r2x0t> or even better use CPLD or small FPGA
[19:10] <Randomskk> I meant more encoding scheme than hardware
[19:10] <fsphil> 9600 baud would give you a 320x240 jpeg image every 16 seconds or so
[19:10] Action: SpeedEvil remembers porn like that.
[19:10] <fsphil> depending on image of course
[19:10] <r2x0t> currently I'm using GMSK mode in RFM22B
[19:10] <Randomskk> I've got an STM32F4 on this test board which is like, 168MHz with a DSP and FPU plus 192K RAM
[19:11] <Randomskk> r2x0t: I mean more how you encode the image data to be transmitted
[19:11] <Randomskk> rather than channel modulation :P
[19:11] <r2x0t> ah
[19:11] <Randomskk> gmsk is an interesting choice though, why?
[19:11] <r2x0t> because manchester encoded data into GMSK is PM
[19:11] <Randomskk> for limited power and where you don't care about sidebands too much I'd have thought normal fsk would work a fair bit better
[19:11] <Randomskk> oh, right, so just using it as psk?
[19:12] <r2x0t> yes, basically like BPSK
[19:12] <r2x0t> no power wasted on sidebands
[19:12] <Randomskk> even so I think fsk works better when power is your constraint? would have to check
[19:12] <r2x0t> BPSK is much more power efficient
[19:12] <Randomskk> gmsk is really bandwidth conserving but that doesn't mean it gives the best data rate for a given power
[19:12] <Randomskk> but I'm going off memory here :P
[19:12] <OZ1SKY_Brian> Randomskk thats right, the signal margin will also get better if you go from 54mbit to 11mbit at the same BW, no disagreement there
[19:12] <Randomskk> OZ1SKY_Brian: then we are entirely in agreement :P
[19:12] <Randomskk> fair enough
[19:13] <r2x0t> currently I can use twice data rate over same SNR channel by using this new modulation scheme
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[19:13] <Randomskk> interesting, that's cool
[19:13] <Randomskk> are you receiving using another rfm22b?
[19:13] <r2x0t> ie. 150Bd throughput vs. 75Bd
[19:13] <r2x0t> no, SDR
[19:13] <OZ1SKY_Brian> r2x0t NV2 ?
[19:13] <Randomskk> hmm okay, which?
[19:13] <r2x0t> but would work using SSB radio
[19:13] <r2x0t> as long as it fits into soundcard channel
[19:13] <r2x0t> obviously that would not work for 128kbit
[19:14] <Randomskk> indeed
[19:14] <r2x0t> but I'm testinglower rates so far
[19:14] <Randomskk> though I reckon you might pack 8Kbit into audio
[19:14] <r2x0t> this is 75Bd equal modulation: http://www.r00t.cz//75Bd_no_noise.wav
[19:14] <r2x0t> and this is same signal, buried deep in noise: http://www.r00t.cz//75Bd_still_good_copy.wav
[19:14] <Randomskk> such a shame that all the amateur radios are just 3kHz output
[19:14] <r2x0t> ..yet still can decode it
[19:15] <Randomskk> yea psk definitely has better noise immunity
[19:15] <fsphil> yea, no technical reason they can't have an option for more bandwidth
[19:15] <Randomskk> that said, what software are you using to try decoding the fsk?
[19:15] <Randomskk> fsphil: max my icom will do is 3.6k :(
[19:15] <OZ1SKY_Brian> Randomskk looks like we where not talking about the same thing, but agree on the last lines :-)
[19:15] <r2x0t> my own
[19:15] <r2x0t> same for this new mode
[19:15] <Randomskk> r2x0t: what were you doing to decode fsk, then?
[19:15] <Randomskk> as in, what demodulation technique?
[19:16] <r2x0t> two filters at tone frequencies
[19:16] <r2x0t> differentiate, then filter again
[19:16] <Randomskk> interesting
[19:17] <r2x0t> but for comparison, I used dl-fldigi
[19:17] <Randomskk> and then FFT bin it or what?
[19:17] <r2x0t> to get initial point, sending 80 chars test sequence, waiting for last SNR where I get entire 80 char line without errors
[19:17] <r2x0t> no FFT
[19:18] <r2x0t> just two filters, then mix them, filter, then do bit PLL timing, then search for 8N1 framing
[19:18] <Randomskk> interesting
[19:18] <Randomskk> is your source up anywhere?
[19:19] <r2x0t> no
[19:19] <r2x0t> commercial licence
[19:19] <Randomskk> I see, fair enough
[19:19] <Randomskk> commercial project?
[19:19] <r2x0t> but if I make this new mode, it will be fully documented
[19:19] <r2x0t> + reference decoder
[19:19] <r2x0t> and code for modulator for Pic/Atmel or something
[19:19] <r2x0t> so I think this is fair
[19:20] <Randomskk> whatever you want to do is fair, pretty much. sounds interesting
[19:20] <r2x0t> I just want to see if there is way to move into something more interesting than RTTY
[19:20] <Randomskk> you're not the only one
[19:20] <r2x0t> to get better link, higher rates and other stuff
[19:21] <Randomskk> indeed
[19:21] <Randomskk> rtty is pretty much the worst possible option except for simplicity
[19:21] <r2x0t> yes
[19:21] <r2x0t> only packet is worse :)
[19:21] <Randomskk> hah
[19:21] <fsphil> you'll love our dual rtty/packet payload :)
[19:21] <r2x0t> lol
[19:22] <r2x0t> also want to experiment with viterbi/convolutional coding
[19:22] <r2x0t> and interleaving data over time to equalize fading
[19:22] <r2x0t> it adds all up nicely... by using PSK instead of FSK, you gain 3dB
[19:22] <Randomskk> yea, these are pretty much all the reasons my new flight computer has such a powerful micro
[19:23] <r2x0t> convolutional gain is great
[19:23] <Randomskk> especially for our channel
[19:23] <r2x0t> want to try cassini K=9 1/3 code
[19:23] <Randomskk> though I also really want to try a fountain code for images
[19:23] <Randomskk> raptor or something
[19:23] <Matt_soton> have you actually make a PSK transmitter at 434 yet?
[19:24] <r2x0t> no :)... this is all just testing with generator
[19:24] <Randomskk> Matt_soton: MSK looks a lot like PSK though
[19:25] <Matt_soton> ah ok :)
[19:25] <Randomskk> or rather, certain types of MSK look a lot like certain types of PSK
[19:25] <r2x0t> my requirements are to make it doable with GMSK/MSK transmitter
[19:25] <Randomskk> r2x0t: I still don't think GMSK is a better idea than MSK
[19:25] <Matt_soton> MSK or MFSK?
[19:25] <Matt_soton> same thing?
[19:25] <r2x0t> no
[19:25] <Randomskk> different thing
[19:25] <r2x0t> MFSK = multi tone
[19:25] <r2x0t> MSK = minimum shift keying
[19:25] <Randomskk> minimum shift vs m-ary frequency shift
[19:25] <Matt_soton> oh i see
[19:25] <r2x0t> ie FSK with shift baudrate/2
[19:25] <r2x0t> GMSK = this, gaussian filtered
[19:26] <Randomskk> r2x0t: gmsk will mean you interfere less with other channels, but
[19:26] <Randomskk> it does nothing to help you
[19:26] <Randomskk> you get more ISI
[19:26] <r2x0t> yes, but it also can be decoded
[19:26] <r2x0t> using GMSK viterbi trellis decoder
[19:26] <Randomskk> well yes
[19:26] <Randomskk> do you still end up gaining vs doing msk without the shaping though?
[19:27] <r2x0t> well, I think yes... because you concentrate entire TX power to narrower BW
[19:27] <Randomskk> hmm
[19:27] <r2x0t> with MSK, you are wasting it on all the crap around
[19:27] <Randomskk> true I guess
[19:27] <Randomskk> another thing worth experimenting
[19:27] <r2x0t> yes... just play with things, that's all I do
[19:28] <Matt_soton> MSK seems like a type of PSK
[19:28] <Randomskk> right, gotta run
[19:28] <Randomskk> Matt_soton: it kind of is, though it's also a type of FSK
[19:28] <Randomskk> seeya around r2x0t
[19:28] <r2x0t> you can generate MSK using FSK transmitter
[19:28] <r2x0t> > FSK with shift baudrate/2
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[19:30] <Matt_soton> how odd
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[19:31] <r2x0t> if you are interested in modulations, this is very good documentation:
[19:31] <r2x0t> http://www.irig106.org/docs/106-11/
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[19:32] <r2x0t> IRIG-106 is standard for military telemetry
[19:32] <r2x0t> baloons, missiles, jet fighters...
[19:32] <r2x0t> TIER-1 is GMSK
[19:32] <r2x0t> TIER-2 is OQPSK
[19:32] <r2x0t> TIER-3 is CPM
[19:32] <r2x0t> choose your poison :)
[19:33] <RocketBoy> the good thing about standards is that there is so many to choose from
[19:33] <daveake> :)
[19:33] <r2x0t> for higher rate data link I would stick to CCSDS, it's very well designed
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[19:34] <r2x0t> describes multiple streams muxing and other stuff
[19:34] <r2x0t> no need to reinvent the wheel...
[19:35] <r2x0t> but it's not usable for lower rates because headers gets too big and frames too long
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[19:43] <jcoxon> evening
[19:44] <Hix> hi jcoxon
[19:45] <jcoxon> hey
[19:47] <fsphil> another busy launch weekend, I might actually build that preamp*
[19:47] <fsphil> *(probably not)
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[19:47] <daveake> :)
[19:47] <Hix> Bugger RS order came
[19:47] <Hix> I ordered crimp BNC plugs
[19:47] <fsphil> my inductor winding skills are poor
[19:47] <Hix> does the outer connection matter?
[19:48] <daveake> At the mo predictions look possible for Saturday
[19:48] <Hix> i.e can i solder the inner and the heatshrink the outer
[19:48] <fsphil> that's what I do Hix
[19:48] <Hix> cool
[19:48] <fsphil> well, crimp the outter
[19:48] <fsphil> outer
[19:48] <fsphil> sorry misread what you'd written
[19:49] <mfa298> ideally you want a good connection for both bits.
[19:49] <mfa298> places like maplin sell crimp tools.
[19:49] <fsphil> or ebay if you're not in a hurry. can get them really cheap now
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[19:51] <jcoxon> ping navrac
[19:52] <OZ1SKY_Brian> the pretracks on spacenear.us, are they based on current wx or at the launch time or?
[19:52] <jcoxon> its hte lastest release of the GFS dataset
[19:52] <jcoxon> so usually within 6 hours
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[19:55] <Hix> hmmm bluescreen
[19:55] chris_99 (~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929) joined #highaltitude.
[19:55] <Hix> looks like the gps is taking the same irq as th emouse as the cursor jumps on a per second pulse basis...
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[19:56] <daveake> Windows?
[19:56] <daveake> If so Device Manager --> Mice --> Serial Ballpoint Mouse --> Disable
[19:56] <Hix> yeah :|
[19:56] <daveake> See above
[19:57] <jcoxon> Hix, oh yes i've seen that before
[19:57] <daveake> Silly MS thing
[19:57] <fsphil> seen that too-- only it was a card reader not gps
[19:57] <Hix> yeah, it detected it just as the bluescreen kicked in. grrrr
[19:57] <Hix> sorted now
[19:57] <daveake> Disable it and it'll fix it permanently. Don't delete it as it'll come back
[19:57] <Hix> yeah, neutered it :)
[19:58] <daveake> Get this all the time with the ink dispensing machines I work on. Windows thinks the machine is a mouse. MS wrote some stupid code for sensing serial meece
[19:58] <daveake> This started in NT4 and it's still there
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[19:59] <Hix> serial mices - reminds me of my old spaceball
[20:00] <Hix> is u-center [sic] worth playing with initially to get a grasp on the MAX6?
[20:00] <jcoxon> yeah its quite useful
[20:00] <jcoxon> for playing with the additional settings
[20:01] <Hix> at the moment I've just got Putty looking at COM6...
[20:05] <navrac> ping jcoxon back
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[20:09] <Hix> yaaaay another bs. p.o.s
[20:10] <OZ1SKY_Brian> jcoxon sorry had a phonecall, thanks
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[20:44] <Hix> Siemens MC55 are they good? I've found someone near me with a pile of em
[20:44] <Hix> Triband and GPRS
[20:44] <SpeedEvil> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ornamental-Gas-Meter-By-Pass-Kit-Gas-Meter-Link-Credit-Meter-Dream-Free-/300672684274?pt=UK_DIY_Materials_Plumbing_MJ&hash=item46017d10f2 - Ah - art.
[20:44] <jcoxon> funny connector iirc
[20:45] <Hix> jcoxon, MC55?
[20:46] <jcoxon> well its a bit tiny
[20:48] <Hix> I've sourced a header for it. SMT onto a board and just push to fit
[20:50] <jcoxon> :-)
[20:50] <Hix> sec
[20:55] <Hix> jcoxon, http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/headers-pcb-receptacles/0234676/
[20:55] <Hix> bing!
[20:55] <jcoxon> hehe
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[21:54] <_Hix> Is there much interest in Siemens MC55 GPRS and GSM modules?
[21:54] <_Hix> 33x35x3mm 5g
[21:55] <kristianpaul> how much?
[21:55] <_Hix> trying to negotiate a price at the moment and need to order in multiples of 10
[21:55] <_Hix> Not sure - probably ~£15 [ish]
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[22:03] <Upu> put me down for 2 if they are easy to interface with
[22:04] <_Hix> Upu, I've sourced the connectors for them from RS @~£1.20
[22:05] <_Hix> they are smt so i need some form of board
[22:05] <Upu> I can make a breakout board thats not a problem
[22:05] <_Hix> that will have SIM on it too
[22:05] <Upu> link the connector pls
[22:05] <_Hix> They guy is being a bit slow to respond.
[22:05] <_Hix> sec
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[22:07] <_Hix> Upu, http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/headers-pcb-receptacles/0234676/
[22:07] <_Hix> got a .lrb but on the lappy at home
[22:07] <Upu> looks doable
[22:08] <_Hix> I reckon - small too
[22:08] <Upu> does the sim go in the module
[22:08] <Upu> or separate ?
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[22:08] <_Hix> i was thinking along the lines of a board with ublox GSM arduino pro mini all on same board
[22:08] <_Hix> separate
[22:09] <Upu> well that you can design yourself :) I can do a board and librry for this under Eagle though
[22:09] <_Hix> ok, with SIM module or not?
[22:09] <_Hix> Got schematics i can send you if you want
[22:09] <Upu> yeah with everything it needs to operate antenna socket etc
[22:10] <Upu> sure that would be great got my mail address ?
[22:10] <_Hix> nevis?
[22:10] <Upu> yup thats fine
[22:10] <Upu> I don't want to make a "HABduino"
[22:10] <_Hix> ok - when i get back I'll sed you everything
[22:10] <Upu> people will end up launching without notams and stuff
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[22:10] <_Hix> oh yeah forgot about your theory with fools
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[22:11] <_Hix> the antenna is the little sma style socket you get on WWAN cards foget name now
[22:11] <_Hix> built into module
[22:11] <Upu> u.fl
[22:12] <_Hix> errr nope don't thikn
[22:12] <_Hix> think
[22:16] <NigeyS> mmcx?
[22:16] <_Hix> NigeyS, me?
[22:16] <NigeyS> yeah
[22:16] <_Hix> as in?
[22:17] <NigeyS> its a connector
[22:17] <NigeyS> http://thewifishop.net/images/uploads/mmcx%20connector.JPG
[22:17] <Upu> thats not what I was expecting
[22:18] <_Hix> sorry - download has stalled - again
[22:19] <Upu> off to walk dog
[22:19] <_Hix> Think Upu was correct
[22:22] <_Hix> U.FL-R-SMT antenna connector from Hirose
[22:23] <natrium42> haha
[22:23] <natrium42> sounds like U.FL-are-smart
[22:23] <_Hix> And the hrader id Hirose 50 pin
[22:23] <_Hix> good typing....
[22:23] <_Hix> my hands have gone spaz
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[22:28] <_Hix> Header Hirose DF12 series
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[22:32] <_Hix> oh nice - the AT command set manual is only 30 pages :)
[22:32] <fsphil> on the plus side, I'm sure there are no errors on any of them :)
[22:34] <_Hix> shit good typing again. sarcasm doesnt work here 330 pages
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[22:36] <_Hix> afk
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[22:36] <fsphil> 330!
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[22:36] <_Hix> Yup!
[22:36] <Upu> why _hix and not just hix ?
[22:37] <_Hix> err - multiple computers and forgot to change
[22:37] <_Hix> I'll standardise the format
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[22:49] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[22:51] <Hix> hey Lunar_Lander
[22:52] <Lunar_Lander> hi Hix
[22:52] <Hix> hows tricks?
[22:52] <Hix> Right guy has come back with £15 for MC55
[22:53] <Lunar_Lander> I'm OK but I am a bit tired
[22:54] <Hix> Gonna order 10 initially - they try and get him down on price
[22:54] <Hix> Upu, you want 2 yeah
[22:55] <Upu> yeah
[22:55] <Hix> k
[22:55] <Upu> ta
[22:55] <Hix> nps
[22:56] <Hix> to work?
[22:56] <Upu> sure
[22:56] <Hix> k
[22:57] <Lunar_Lander> hi Upu
[22:57] <Upu> hey Lunar
[22:57] <Upu> NTX2 is in the post
[22:57] <Hix> Lunar_Lander, you haven't said yeah yet - you ok :p
[22:57] <Lunar_Lander> cool!
[22:57] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[22:57] <Lunar_Lander> yeah I am good
[22:57] <Lunar_Lander> yeah, yeah, yeah
[22:58] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[22:58] <Hix> ha
[22:58] <Lunar_Lander> and today I got someone interested in HAB
[22:58] <Lunar_Lander> because I talked about it in the mathematics computer room
[22:58] <Lunar_Lander> xD
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[23:02] <Hix> Right so 10 MC55 GSM GPRS modules winging their way to me
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[23:19] <Hix> right im orf l8rs guys
[23:20] <Hix> oh bugger - Upu http://www.widerimage.co.uk/docs/MC55.pdf
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[23:20] <Hix> http://www.widerimage.co.uk/docs/MC55_AT.pdf
[23:20] <Hix> seeya
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[23:21] <Lunar_Lander> Upu I am so happy that I was able to explain HAB to these informatics people
[23:21] <Lunar_Lander> and they never saw arduino before either
[23:21] <Lunar_Lander> and sparkfin
[23:21] <Lunar_Lander> sparkfun
[23:21] <Lunar_Lander> sorry
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[00:00] --- Tue Mar 20 2012