highaltitude.log.20120316

[00:00] <jonsowman> jcoxon: what frequency are you flying on on sat?
[00:01] <jcoxon> just xaben on .075
[00:01] <jonsowman> oh it's the same one, OK
[00:01] <jonsowman> sorry NigeyS, got confused
[00:01] <NigeyS> me to lol thats good news
[00:02] <jcoxon> if there is a last minute flight it would be a rfm22b so variable
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[00:10] <Hibby> here..
[00:10] <Hibby> I've just noticed something
[00:10] <NigeyS> u really are a male after all? :p
[00:11] <Hibby> at one point, Acorn computers were renamed to element 14. related to the farnell owned (I think) website at all?
[00:11] <NigeyS> hrm that i didn't know
[00:12] <Randomskk> yea
[00:12] <Randomskk> same company
[00:13] <Randomskk> wait, hang on
[00:13] <Randomskk> I heard they were the same company
[00:13] <Lunar_Lander> wb Graeme_SHARP
[00:13] <Randomskk> but I just looked it up and they're not
[00:13] <Randomskk> the element 14 from acorn eventaully got bought by broadcom in 2000
[00:13] <Lunar_Lander> we had a Acorn A3010 as our first computer ever
[00:13] <Randomskk> they make broadcom's DSL stuff
[00:17] <Graeme_SHARP> Lunar, In reply to your ealier question, we running on .NET Gadgeteer based mainbaord (Sytech Nano), based around an ARM 9 with a lots of breakout boards (including a Ublox 6 for GPS and NiM2 based comms solution).
[00:19] <Hibby> Randomskk: interesting
[00:19] <Hibby> Graeme_SHARP: how is .net gadgeteer? I've been curious...
[00:25] <Graeme_SHARP> You'll have to ask Rich (he'll be on here at some point) as he is the one who has been doing most of the work with it, but from the understanding I have, I would say potentially very powerful and flexible for someone with limited electronics experience, but doesn't offer the lower end customisation that other platforms might do.
[00:26] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[00:26] <Lunar_Lander> I looked at the one page
[00:26] <Lunar_Lander> what was it
[00:26] <Lunar_Lander> Outreach?
[00:26] <Lunar_Lander> that you did an experiment competition
[00:26] <Hibby> Hmm. Interesting. I'll be sure to ask how it relates to arduino and my personal asm hobby
[00:27] <Graeme_SHARP> However once the community around it matures and there are libraries and pre built 'modules' available it could really lower the barrier of entry to this kind of activity (we plan to open source the code and designs for the interfaces with NiM2 and Ublox 6 once we are confident in them).
[00:33] <Graeme_SHARP> Lunar_Lander, Yep, we worked with some Year 9 pupils at a local Southampton school to try and get them enthused about STEM subjects, if our first launch is successful, we will then fly a suite of instruments chosen by them on another flight and work with the pupils to analyse the data (as well as talk them through the balloon launch process).
[00:34] <Lunar_Lander> cool!
[00:34] <Lunar_Lander> ublox you said
[00:35] <Lunar_Lander> by Upu? :)
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[00:36] <Graeme_SHARP> Nope, This one http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/gps-module-net-gadgeteer-compatible-p-971.html?cPath=203 it is a Ublox Neo 6M underneath
[00:37] <Lunar_Lander> ah OK
[00:37] <Lunar_Lander> yeah I am working arduino based
[00:41] <Lunar_Lander> btw
[00:41] <Lunar_Lander> what's STEM?
[00:42] <Graeme_SHARP> Science, Technology, Engineering and Maths - A bit of an education/goverment buzz word at the moment. :)
[00:45] <Udin_SHARP> It might be worth mentioning though that we are also running an arduino nano to control the payload
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[00:46] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[00:46] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[00:46] <Lunar_Lander> hello Udin_SHARP
[00:47] <Udin_SHARP> evening
[00:47] Nick change: heathkid|2 -> heathkid
[00:47] <Lunar_Lander> hello heathkid
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[01:00] <griffonbot> @NigeyUK: RT @mattltm RT @PrototypeMedway: We are hosting an Open Morning on Saturday, 7th of April. Come see what we're all about! #ukhas [http://twitter.com/NigeyUK/status/180458508972601345]
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[01:03] <Lunar_Lander> Graeme_SHARP, Udin_SHARP SHARP seems to be a cool project!
[01:03] <griffonbot> @NigeyUK: project swift steaming along with completed r2 PCB. http://t.co/ULRxiFf0 #ukhas [http://twitter.com/NigeyUK/status/180459311015796737]
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[01:09] <Graeme_SHARP> Lunar_Lander, Thanks - we are enjoying it a lot despite the many sleepless nights it is causing us! :)
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[01:22] <Lunar_Lander> oh
[01:22] <Lunar_Lander> they left
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[01:42] <Lunar_Lander> good night
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[01:57] Nick change: MLow-werk -> MLow
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[03:32] <heathkid> hello
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[06:26] <SamSilver> moaning dave
[06:26] <daveake> It is. And it's come so quickly! :(
[06:28] <Randomskk> hasn't it just :(
[06:29] <SamSilver> time for a cuppa java
[06:29] <daveake> Double whammy ... my first 2 thoughts on waking were "Oh, that's early", and "At least it's Saturday" ....
[06:29] <Randomskk> oh no D:
[06:30] <daveake> On the plus side, there are flights to track today, tomorrow and Sunday ,,,
[06:30] <daveake> ,,, and between those I have 2 payloads to build for next weekend :)
[06:31] <Randomskk> nice ;D
[06:31] <Randomskk> after the shiftstorm that is today is over I plan to get wombat r2 designed up and send it off. can't wait
[06:32] <Randomskk> shitstorm*
[06:32] <Randomskk> and also solder up the new radio bits for r1 and try and fly it soonish
[06:32] <Randomskk> hopefully more successfully than its first flight ;P
[06:32] <daveake> :D
[06:33] <daveake> Well, it was a test, and you got a result :p
[06:34] <daveake> I've got a few new things for next weekend - the SMS gateway, a tracker using Upu's GPS breakout with the tiny GPS antenna, and the first chase with my car PC program
[06:34] <Randomskk> annoyingly I still dunno why it didn't work exactly -- when we got to it at landing it was transmitting rtty just fine
[06:35] <daveake> Oh that's annoying
[06:35] <Randomskk> but I have my temperature-related suspicions and a few ideas on hopefullying getting around some of the problems
[06:35] <Randomskk> find out soon I guess
[06:35] <Randomskk> sounds fun -- sms gateway?
[06:36] <daveake> Payload sends an SMS to a phone plugged into my PC; SMS contains the usual telemetry string; PC polls the phone looking for such messages; PC uploads to habitat
[06:36] <Randomskk> sweet
[06:36] <Randomskk> incidentally have you seen twilio?
[06:36] <Randomskk> it's $1/mo + 1 cent/incoming SMS
[06:36] <daveake> Been testing it this week and it's been working great
[06:37] <Randomskk> it's really, really, really nice for SMS gateways
[06:37] <Randomskk> their API is absolutely fantastic
[06:37] <daveake> Ah, I was going to ask you which one you used
[06:37] <daveake> That's very very good
[06:37] <Randomskk> yea, it's what I'm using for 020 4433221 HAB
[06:37] <daveake> I looked at a few. Best I found was £10/month
[06:37] <Randomskk> which will probably support text-to-upload-telem soon maybe one day perhaps
[06:37] <daveake> So I gave up and used a phone ==> free
[06:37] <Randomskk> twilio's just so much better
[06:37] <Randomskk> yea, indeed
[06:38] <Randomskk> also, $30 free credit on signup
[06:38] <Randomskk> which would last you like, years
[06:38] <daveake> Noted :)
[06:38] <SamSilver> on the tracker it is showing ASTRA as being on dry-land??
[06:38] <daveake> I tried a Nokia phone but they disabled the SMS AT commands!
[06:38] <SamSilver> and at 18.3 m was last seen at 22m
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[06:39] <daveake> Fortunately I keep my old phones and I had a V3 sat doing nothing :)
[06:39] <SamSilver> ASTRA > KF4ZTI Time: 2012-03-16 00:24:54
[06:40] <SamSilver> anyone know what the story is with ASTRA?
[06:40] <daveake> ooer
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[06:41] <daveake> oh, no that's not Astra
[06:41] <daveake> "KF4TI" ?
[06:41] <daveake> KF4TI
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[06:42] Action: daveake 's eyes still blurry
[06:42] <SamSilver> zoom out
[06:42] <daveake> Have done. Dunno what's going on there
[06:43] <SamSilver> early april fools day
[06:43] <daveake> :)
[06:43] <daveake> afk .. cuppa
[06:43] <SamSilver> aah no parachute
[06:52] <Upu> morning
[07:21] <daveake> I missed it at the time, but did anyone see the HAB segment in "The Secrets of Everything" on BBC3 on Sunday?
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[07:25] <daveake> Still on iPlayer - http://www.bbc.co.uk/i/b01dbhd6/
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[08:06] <daveake> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/recordbid-skydiver-felixbaumgartner-in-test-leap-7574755.html
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[08:16] <UpuWork> keeps crashing my browser daveake don't know why I'll try again tonight
[08:16] <UpuWork> I hear its not so good
[08:20] <daveake> yeah, not the best. Less said about the "science" side the better :p
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[08:54] <fsphil> the BBC thing?
[08:54] <daveake> "The Secrets of Everything" on BBC3 on Sunday
[08:54] <daveake> ^^ :)
[08:55] <daveake> Not "Orbit"
[08:55] <fsphil> ah
[08:55] <fsphil> well it's on BBC3
[08:55] <griffonbot> Received email: Alistair Currah "[UKHAS] Permanent NOTAM?"
[08:58] <NigelMoby> meh
[08:58] <NigelMoby> 2 hours sleep is never enough :(
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[09:00] <fsphil> I've learned that no amount of sleep is enough
[09:00] <NigelMoby> lol that can be so true Phil!
[09:03] <NigelMoby> off to town I go back later to track astra!
[09:04] <daveake> Such a shame sleep isn't like a big battery, so you could charge up by sleeping for a week say then not need any for a while
[09:08] <fsphil> yea
[09:10] <daveake> or use a quick charger :)
[09:11] <fsphil> it's a result of unintelligent design
[09:11] <daveake> lol
[09:17] <griffonbot> Received email: Jon Sowman "Re: [UKHAS] Permanent NOTAM?"
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[09:20] <number10> cant see anything wrong with sleeping at night and being awake in the day - unless you are a badger, or astronomer..
[09:20] <number10> or having an afternoon nap
[09:21] <griffonbot> Received email: Anthony Stirk "Re: [UKHAS] Permanent NOTAM?"
[09:22] <fsphil> an astronomer bird watcher
[09:26] <number10> how does that song go - tip toe throgh the daffodils http://imgur.com/nyLId
[09:27] Nick change: niftylettuce_ -> niftylettuce
[09:29] <griffonbot> Received email: David Akerman "Re: [UKHAS] Permanent NOTAM?"
[09:29] <daveake> That reminds me ...
[09:29] <daveake> ... must badger DM on Monday :)
[09:30] <fsphil> I seem to have been lucky, I get very long notams and only had a few calls
[09:30] <number10> all set for next weekend daveake ?
[09:30] <UpuWork> just waiting on the weather..
[09:32] <number10> yes, no point in getting good bacon butties wet - and I suppose there are balloon conciderations aswell
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[09:36] <daveake> "all set" ... well, I don't have either payload built yet, but both trackers are ready
[09:36] <daveake> bacon butties are like the batteries - go in at the last moment
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[09:53] Action: cuddykid patiently awaits a shiny new itoy
[09:53] <daveake> iWait?
[09:54] <cuddykid> iPatient :P
[09:54] <daveake> riiight
[09:54] <cuddykid> here between 11 and 12 apparently
[09:54] <daveake> iBet
[09:54] <cuddykid> iWon
[09:54] <cuddykid> I love how tnt's tracking system is down - they're one of the main couriers for today
[09:55] <cuddykid> the one coming here is with UKMail though, very helpful when I called them up
[09:55] <cuddykid> said they had a huge amount of deliveries toda
[09:58] <gonzo_> mothers day rush I assume
[10:00] <jonsowman> guys, please don't clear Apex from the tracker
[10:08] <griffonbot> Received email: Alistair Currah "Re: [UKHAS] Permanent NOTAM?"
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[10:25] <eroomde> morn
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[10:27] <fsphil> 'in
[10:28] <eroomde> amusing email on the cusf list
[10:28] <eroomde> "It is not customary to leave lithium batteries stored under short circuit."
[10:29] <Hix> cuddykid, http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Breakout-Board-Ipod-Iphone-Ipad-/370543426784
[10:30] <daveake> erooomde Is it customary to state the bleedin' obvious? :)
[10:30] <schofieldau> Hix: sparkfun also have them not sure how much
[10:31] <Hix> schofieldau, I'm just there looking :)
[10:31] <cuddykid> brilliant Hix!
[10:31] <Hix> sec cuddykid
[10:32] <daveake> So ck when are you launching your shiny new iPad into space? I'm sure you can get rtty out of that thing
[10:32] <cuddykid> haha
[10:32] <eroomde> do you have it yet?
[10:32] <cuddykid> eroomde: within an hour I should
[10:32] <eroomde> i was tempted to go to the apple store in reading this w/e
[10:32] <eroomde> but right now i am working (very hard)
[10:32] <cuddykid> apparently places like comet/pc world have stock in some places
[10:33] <daveake> suuuuure you are
[10:33] <Hix> schofieldau, cuddykid - http://proto-pic.co.uk/search.php?search_query=ipod&x=0&y=0
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[10:35] <gp_pl> can someone help me? I have no experience in antennas, I have Venus638FLPx and Im looking for good antenna
[10:36] <gp_pl> passive or active ?
[10:36] <gp_pl> cable length ?
[10:37] <zyp> what's your goal?
[10:37] <gp_pl> 30km+ ballon :)
[10:38] <eroomde> gp_pl: is it on a breakout board of some sort?
[10:38] <gp_pl> yes
[10:38] <eroomde> the general rule is active if the antenna is far away
[10:38] <eroomde> say down a couple of meters of cable
[10:38] <gp_pl> venus gps from sparkfun (for trackuino)
[10:39] <gp_pl> so in box 12x12in is no go ?
[10:39] <eroomde> passive if it's very close, eg the sarantel helical antennas on the same pcb as the gps eg http://www.flickr.com/photos/eroomde/6964024203/in/photostream
[10:39] <gp_pl> I have this http://www.sparkfun.com/products/11058
[10:39] <gp_pl> with SMA
[10:39] <eroomde> can you link me to the venus breakout datasheet?
[10:39] <eroomde> that'll tell you if it can support active
[10:40] <eroomde> ah sorry thanks. i am being slow
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[10:40] <gp_pl> It says that passive and active will work
[10:41] <gp_pl> but I've fount this
[10:41] <gp_pl> The 5-6m of RG-174 cable included with most portable active antennas is actually a required part of the "antenna system". The 6 dB or so of loss contributed by the cable is needed to lower the signal power into a range usable by the receiver. For instance, typical active GPS antennas have an LNA gain of 28-30 dB while some receivers have a MAXIMUM external gain specification of 26 dB to
[10:41] <gp_pl> 33 dB. Simply cutting off all but a foot or so of the cable results in the R.F. front end of the receiver being overdriven. The receiver will most likely still operate, but Time To First Fix (TTFF) and tracking performance will be degraded. The recommended minimum length of RG-174 for these types of antennas is 3m, and the maximum is 12.5m. If you are designing a project where the antenna
[10:41] <gp_pl> is going to be in close proximity to the receiver and a lot
[10:41] <gp_pl> of extra cable is undesirable, you should consider using a receiver fitted with the onboard LNA coupled to a passive antenna.
[10:41] <eroomde> mmm, passive will take less power but you might not get such good performance. however, on a balloon that might not be an issue
[10:42] <eroomde> i would just get something like this to start http://www.sparkfun.com/products/464
[10:42] <Hix> is there an average(y)(ish) sort of figure for current draw on a flight computer [GPS, SMS, Camera trigger]?
[10:42] <gp_pl> also I've found somewhere that rolled cable and antenna close to gps module is not working at all
[10:42] <eroomde> Hix: 'it depends', the always helpful answer
[10:43] <eroomde> you can put a lot of time into trying to lower the average by using low power gps, doing lots of sleeping with your gps, and so on
[10:43] <jonsowman> on the order of 100mA
[10:43] <Hix> yeah, just looking at a ballpark - basically solar powered for a float?!
[10:43] <eroomde> but typically you might be looking at (very very roughly) 20mA-50mA for gps, 10-20mA for microcontroller, 30mA for ntx2
[10:43] <eroomde> so about 100
[10:44] <eroomde> but you can definitely do a lot better than 100mA if you want to
[10:44] <Hix> so 100mA could easlily be achieved with solar backing up batts...
[10:44] <gonzo_> I've used amplified GPS ants with a cut short ant. Found the same prob due to excess gain. But not sure if that was excess noise or oscillation. I suspect the latter
[10:44] <gp_pl> what about antennas with LNA?
[10:45] <eroomde> they are nice too
[10:45] <daveake> Typically mine have ended up around the 65-70mA point after lock and without any power saving
[10:45] <eroomde> yes, gps's draw more power when they're trying to find a lock
[10:45] <gonzo_> I was refering to filtered/LNA ants
[10:45] <eroomde> i'm hoping to get my payload down to about 30mA average
[10:45] <jonsowman> Hix: which GSM module are you using?
[10:45] <eroomde> @3v3
[10:46] <eroomde> oh i didn't spot the sms. those modules can ask for about 2A peak during transmission!
[10:48] <daveake> Buzz4 tracker strapped to his power source - http://imgur.com/8FmXc
[10:48] <eroomde> at least, that was the caswe for a couple of different telit modules we once flew
[10:48] <jonsowman> daveake: nice
[10:49] <daveake> Those are AAAs
[10:49] <daveake> I put some hot-melt between the rfm22b and the cells, to minimize drifting
[10:49] <daveake> 30.54g. Insulation/aerial/cord/chute to add to that
[10:50] <daveake> eroomde Yeah, I've not looked at peaks, but they can be quite high
[10:52] <daveake> The module I have says it works down to 5V, so I tested it and it gave up at 4.8V. Main tracker runs from 4 x AA cells. Iwas thinking of adding 2 more and running the GSM from 6 in series
[10:53] <eroomde> daveake: you tracker weighs less than hedgehog without batteries!
[10:53] <daveake> :D
[10:54] <eroomde> i just weights hedgehog and it's 32g
[10:54] <eroomde> a lot of which is the saratel
[10:54] <daveake> It weighs half the GPS antenna did on my first flight!
[10:54] <daveake> Sarantel is 8g IIRC
[10:54] <eroomde> can definitely see the attraction of the chipscale antenna
[10:55] <daveake> I could save another 6g by removing an AAA and using a step-up. I ran some tests with lithiums at -20 in the freezer and I get more than twice the run time (15 hours vs 6) at that temp, with 3 AAAs into a linear reg rather than 2 into a step-up
[10:56] <daveake> For now I'm going safe and using 3, but for a pico flight later I'll use the step-up
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[11:02] <Hix> jonsowman, nothing yet. I know they draw a lot when being used
[11:02] <jonsowman> okay
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[11:05] <gp_pl> what about antennas without housing with 15cm cable ?
[11:06] <gp_pl> like this
[11:06] <gp_pl> http://www.proscan-antenna.com/index.php/site/products/product/ANTENA_GPS_MAZO_BEZ_OBUDOWY__2450V,36,1,9/
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[11:06] <gp_pl> or this http://www.sparkfun.com/products/178
[11:07] <daveake> I've flown those twice so far, with a Lassen IQ receiver. They work better with 8cm of foil underneath as aground plane.
[11:08] <daveake> I'm flying one next week too (hopefully)
[11:09] <Hix> there's no reason you couldn't have the f.c running on solar and switching to lithium when it needed to use SMS is there?
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[11:12] <Hix> or even a sensor that says when solar generation is low switch to lithium
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[11:19] <Hix> My Yagi arrived yesterday but is terminated with an sma connector and some cheap looking coax
[11:20] <Hix> am i better off soldering my rg58 with a bnc to the driven element instead
[11:20] <Hix> want to see if i can track thisw arvos launch
[11:21] <cuddykid> no pcbs&..
[11:21] <cuddykid> and it looks like todays post has come early for one
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[11:23] <eroomde> Hix: possibly
[11:23] <eroomde> if you're just receiving, sma is fine
[11:23] <eroomde> it won't take much power though
[11:24] <eroomde> if you're transmitting
[11:26] <NickB1> cuddykid, any pictures of your design?
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[11:28] <griffonbot> @b3noxley: Looking forward to seeing the hard work on #ASTRA and it's 3D printed payload finally being launched today. #ukhas #SotonASTRA [http://twitter.com/b3noxley/status/180616415252979712]
[11:28] <Hix> ok, thought more connections would create more loss
[11:29] <eroomde> more connections?
[11:29] <eroomde> you'd just be replacing one with another, if i understood correctly
[11:30] <Hix> ahh, confusion reigns
[11:30] <Hix> I've got a length of RG58 that I soldered and crimped a BNC to
[11:31] <Hix> so getting one this afternoon may be a struggle but soldering the coax to the criven element is quick and easy
[11:31] <Hix> driven
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[11:33] <gonzo_> is that a scottish driven element?
[11:34] <gonzo_> sma connectors will actually take quite a lot of power
[11:35] <Hix> scottish?
[11:36] <gonzo_> can anyone confirm, will the ublox6 rx come up in NMEA mode from cold, or does it need commanding first?
[11:36] <daveake> former
[11:36] <Hix> yup i got NMEA on first start last week
[11:36] <gonzo_> 'crivens' is a stereotyped scots exclamation
[11:36] <gonzo_> thanks, that make it all so much simpler.
[11:37] <daveake> You need to set flight mode, and may need to tell it what sentences you do or don't want
[11:37] <Hix> ah - don't think so - i'm guessing its a folded dipole - from the shape :)
[11:37] <daveake> But probably just the flight mode
[11:37] <gonzo_> BTW, is there a group promo code for UPUs online store?
[11:38] <Hix> UKHAS
[11:38] <gonzo_> I hadn't banked on having to talk to it. Just take all the sentences and filter in the PIC
[11:38] <gonzo_> ta Hix. Best get a few rx's ordered.
[11:39] <daveake> Yeah, sentence-wise you can just ignore the ones you don't want. I do turn off unwanted ones but that's just me :)
[11:39] <Hix> doh - just read the thread properly - face slap duly administered.
[11:39] <daveake> But the important thing is the flight mode
[11:41] <UpuWork> gonzo_ comes up in NMEA @ 9600bps
[11:41] <UpuWork> use code UKHAS
[11:41] <Randomskk> eroomde: any thoughts on picoblade crimpers? in particular if there exist any besides the £200 ones on farnell that might work?
[11:41] <UpuWork> Randomskk
[11:41] <UpuWork> I have an answer on that give me 10 mins
[11:41] <Randomskk> I wanna swap all of womnbat r2's connectors to picoblade
[11:41] <Randomskk> oh cool, ta
[11:42] <UpuWork> gonzo_ if you're ordering NTX2's PM me
[11:42] <eroomde> cuddykid: http://diydrones.com/profiles/blogs/introducing-hdwing-4-my-motor-glider-for-high-altitude-balloon
[11:42] <eroomde> Randomskk: Upu has foiund one
[11:42] <eroomde> oh too slow
[11:42] <eroomde> always too slow
[11:42] <cuddykid> nice eroomde!
[11:42] <eroomde> or just wrong
[11:42] <eroomde> such is life
[11:42] <cuddykid> shame about the idiotic CAA
[11:43] <Laurenceb_> you know what im going to say
[11:43] <cuddykid> lol
[11:43] <Randomskk> the CAA really aren't that bad
[11:43] <cuddykid> they are
[11:43] <Laurenceb_> they have their hands tied
[11:43] <cuddykid> when they stop a foam glider
[11:43] <Laurenceb_> "glider"
[11:43] <Laurenceb_> thats the issue
[11:44] <Laurenceb_> flixed wing uavs arent allowed
[11:44] <UpuWork> Randomskk http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Universal-Mini-Crimping-tool-Crimp-pliers-Molex-KK-ZH-XH-SL-JST-AMP-JAE-servos-9-/260968044160?pt=UK_Computing_NetworkingTools_Accessories_SM&hash=item3cc2e85680
[11:44] <UpuWork> PA09 pliers for pico blade
[11:44] <Hix> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Universal-Mini-Crimping-tool-Crimp-pliers-Molex-KK-ZH-XH-SL-JST-AMP-JAE-servos-9-/260968044160?pt=UK_Computing_NetworkingTools_Accessories_SM&hash=item3cc2e85680#ht_4946wt_653
[11:44] <Laurenceb_> the solution to this problem is to use a parachute
[11:44] <UpuWork> PA21 for JST
[11:44] <cuddykid> I wonder if I could rebrand it in any way.. foam that floats :P
[11:45] <Laurenceb_> i just use long nosed pliers
[11:45] <Laurenceb_> helium blown foam?
[11:45] <Laurenceb_> leviboard
[11:45] <Randomskk> sweet thanks upu
[11:45] <UpuWork> I have to get some too
[11:45] <UpuWork> but I've run out of money this month
[11:46] <UpuWork> I have the PA21's which are fine good quality
[11:46] <Hix> Upu, don't go there - I ended up with an iPad - dunno how or why...
[11:46] <Laurenceb_> burn it with fire
[11:47] <gonzo_> UpuWork, just ordered the ublox/chip ants. Ta
[11:47] <UpuWork> no problems I'll try get those done today for you
[11:47] <Laurenceb_> ifad
[11:47] <gonzo_> np, no rush.
[11:47] <jonsowman> Laurenceb_: I quote from the ebay ad: "recall the awful results achieved (not to mention time wasted) trying to crimp mini crimp pins with unsuitable tools like long nose pliers ..euggh! Time to do this properly...."
[11:47] <Laurenceb_> hehe
[11:47] <Randomskk> UpuWork: PA09 won't do JST?
[11:47] <Laurenceb_> he neeeds more skillz
[11:48] <jonsowman> Laurenceb_: haha
[11:48] <UpuWork> it probably will actually as both the PA-21 and and PA-09 have 1.6mm on it
[11:48] <Randomskk> cool
[11:48] <Randomskk> they do list a ton of JST things
[11:48] <UpuWork> I never planned to use the pico blades
[11:48] <Randomskk> sweet, I'll pick up a pair and see how they do
[11:48] <eroomde> http://www.flickr.com/photos/eroomde/6987004205/in/set-72157629174453806
[11:48] <eroomde> there's the one we just got
[11:49] <UpuWork> proper ones
[11:49] <UpuWork> on a cam
[11:49] <jonsowman> 'we' being work one assumes
[11:49] <Randomskk> that's the £200 one from farnell?
[11:49] <Laurenceb_> wuuutt
[11:49] <Laurenceb_> thats crazy money
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[11:50] <eroomde> yes
[11:50] <UpuWork> Laurenceb when you're making things that can go into space you don't piss about with long nose pliers :)
[11:50] <eroomde> Laurenceb_: crimp tools do cost crazy money yes
[11:50] <Laurenceb_> no, you solder the connectors :P
[11:50] <eroomde> but not as crazy as doing crimps without a drimp tool
[11:50] <Hix> eroomde, ooh fame on flickr :)
[11:50] <eroomde> crimp*
[11:50] <UpuWork> apparently you won't solder them
[11:51] <Laurenceb_> i solder them all the time
[11:51] <eroomde> aaaaaaaargh
[11:51] <Laurenceb_> always works
[11:51] <UpuWork> err don't
[11:51] <Laurenceb_> you just need the right amount of solder and flux
[11:51] <eroomde> for some value of 'works' perhaps
[11:51] <eroomde> but seriously
[11:51] <Laurenceb_> heh
[11:53] <eroomde> they really are designed to be folded into a very precise shape, one part holding the insulation and one the conductor, and to give a specific insertion and holding force onto the opposite gender
[11:53] <eroomde> if you start deviating from that, you risk the sky falling in
[11:53] <eroomde> i'm almost not joking
[11:54] <eroomde> the tools are shaped to fold different parts of the crimp into different shapes
[11:54] <Laurenceb_> u usually tin the conductor crimp part, fold it all onto place with about 5 actions then reflow the middle
[11:54] <Hix> " to give a specific insertion and holding force onto the opposite gender" sounds like part of an entry from Roger's Profanissaurus
[11:54] <Laurenceb_> if you want to do it without crimping tools
[11:55] <eroomde> no, i don't usually do that at all
[11:55] <eroomde> you might
[11:55] <Laurenceb_> :P
[11:55] <eroomde> but you'd be wrong to
[11:55] <Morseman> Anyone know what that APEX balloon showing as being in the NEC area near Solihull is all about?
[11:56] <Laurenceb_> well ive often had issues with contact on commercially crimped stuff
[11:56] <eroomde> seriously, i've been through the valley of the shadow of death with connectors on mechatronicsy projects. it's so worth doing connections right
[11:56] <eroomde> even at a hobby level
[11:56] <Laurenceb_> yeah
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[11:56] <eroomde> commercially crimped can still be crap if it was done by a monkey
[11:56] <UpuWork> Morseman it was a false location as part of something the Apex team were part of
[11:57] <jonsowman> Morseman: ignore it
[11:57] <Morseman> OK
[11:57] <UpuWork> Astra should be up later on
[11:57] <Laurenceb_> launching today?
[11:57] <Morseman> Yes, I've already set up the radio/DL-FLdigi
[11:57] <UpuWork> apparently
[11:57] <NigelMoby> they set a launch time yet or still between 1 and 3?
[11:57] <UpuWork> ISH
[11:58] <Laurenceb_> awesome
[11:58] <Morseman> However, Cornwall is a long way away and the two 70cm beacons in that direction were not strong earlier today
[11:59] <Morseman> I also have to go and collect Kate at 13:30 so I hope they are running a little late :-)
[12:01] <Morseman> Sandwich time I think...
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[12:03] <daveake> Not so far for me, however my house is in the way
[12:06] <Hix> Randomskk, UpuWork - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ratchet-Crimp-Crimper-Crimping-Tool-Molex-PC-Plug-Headers-Fan-2-54mm-HT-225D-/130660824262#ht_1220wt_902
[12:09] <Hix> right - time to exit work for 2.5 days - YES!
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[12:14] <griffonbot> Received email: Sophie Hart "[UKHAS] Launch Announcement: University of Southampton Project SHARP
[12:15] <eroomde> rocket pie: http://www.flickr.com/photos/eroomde/6987041909/in/photostream
[12:15] <eroomde> University of Southampton seem to have about 19 disparate balloon groups
[12:16] <Graeme_SHARP> Hehe, only 2 - and we do meet and chat on quite a regular basis. :)
[12:16] <Matt_soton> actually theres at least 4 differnet projects i know of
[12:16] <eroomde> yes 19/2
[12:16] <eroomde> i am prone to exaggeration :)
[12:17] <Matt_soton> + balloon launched gliders
[12:17] <Graeme_SHARP> ASTRA, SHARP and I'm guessing Phys Soc Matt?
[12:17] <Matt_soton> yea, and engineering have another gadgeeter payload
[12:18] <Matt_soton> but that is sorta part of astra
[12:18] <Matt_soton> i think that goes by the name of atom
[12:18] <Matt_soton> theres also a phone thats been sent up before
[12:19] <Graeme_SHARP> Yep, I was kind of throwing everything Andras/Steve have a hand in under the ASTRA banner. :)
[12:19] <eroomde> you should combine to make ultra-mega-hab-azoid
[12:19] <eroomde> like in power rangers.
[12:19] <Matt_soton> whether you combine astra and atom is in the same way that do you combine sharp/astra/atm
[12:20] <Matt_soton> each are designed by different people
[12:20] <Matt_soton> sharp/astra are a bit more seperate though
[12:21] <eroomde> i mean a perople combination
[12:21] <eroomde> rather than a payload combination
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[12:24] <Matt_soton> the physoc outreach might turn into a student society mind you
[12:24] <Matt_soton> im not too sure on the long term aspecct of astra
[12:25] <Matt_soton> they need more electronics people however :P
[12:27] <benoxley> we do indeed :)
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[12:28] <Graeme_SHARP> I think the ultimate goal of astra is the balloon launch gliders - and everything else is technology development in the that direction - but agreed on the electronics aspect - SHARP is all Aerospace Engineerings with limited electronics experience (hence the use of Gadgeteer) and it has been an uphill battle
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[12:31] <jonsowman> Matt_soton: benoxley: is there a current flight doc for ASTRA?
[12:32] <Matt_soton> ASTRA1
[12:32] <jonsowman> not showing up in dl-fldigi
[12:32] <jonsowman> anyone sel?
[12:32] <jonsowman> *else
[12:33] <Matt_soton> its right under APEX
[12:33] <daveake> I see it here, before and after a refresh
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[12:34] <jonsowman> what dl-fldigi builds are you running?
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[12:34] <daveake> 3.20.29
[12:34] <jonsowman> right
[12:34] <jonsowman> you're using an old version
[12:34] <Matt_soton> 3.20.29
[12:34] <daveake> yep
[12:34] <jonsowman> the flight doc for ASTRA1 has expired
[12:35] <jonsowman> nobody using newer builds will be able to see it
[12:35] <Matt_soton> how come?
[12:35] <jonsowman> the doc has expired
[12:35] <jonsowman> Matt_soton: is the telem format and everything the same?
[12:35] <Matt_soton> yea
[12:35] <jonsowman> ok i'll extend the doc lifetime
[12:35] <Matt_soton> can you just add a few months to te timestamp? :P
[12:35] <Matt_soton> ah
[12:36] <jonsowman> expiry tomorrow
[12:36] <Matt_soton> :)
[12:36] <Matt_soton> so is your flight list really short?
[12:36] <jonsowman> done
[12:36] <jonsowman> yep, only 5 things
[12:36] <Matt_soton> ah :)
[12:37] <jonsowman> ok ASTRA1 is now valid until midday tomorrow
[12:37] <Matt_soton> yra tahts fine
[12:37] <Morseman> I'm running V3.20.29 and ASTRA1 is in the list of flights
[12:37] <jonsowman> newer builds connect directly to couch
[12:37] <daveake> jonsowman While you're there :p could you delete the "CLOUD2" doc altogether please?
[12:38] <daveake> I just use "BUZZ" and "CLOUD" now
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[12:39] <Randomskk> shouldn't need to delete it, just let it expire
[12:39] <daveake> Oh it'll be expired :)
[12:39] <Morseman> There was a leter version of DL-FLdigi where you had to 'unhide' the list of all docs
[12:39] <Randomskk> we should have this sorted out a lot better soon, I got kinda distracted recently with wombat...
[12:40] <Morseman> daveake it still shows up in the list - when do they get deleted?
[12:40] <Morseman> leter = later
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[12:40] <daveake> Is the plan for people to be able to upload docs and set/change the validity dates themselves, rather than bother you guys each time?
[12:40] <Randomskk> Morseman: old versions of dl-fldigi don't remove expired docs, but there will be a new release soon
[12:40] <Randomskk> daveake: yes
[12:40] <daveake> cool
[12:40] <Randomskk> well the plan is that people can upload whatever docs they want and it'l show up as a 'testing' doc on dl-fldigi
[12:41] <Randomskk> then one of several people can 'approve' a doc to make it show on the default list and so forth
[12:41] <daveake> ok even better
[12:41] <Randomskk> which is just clicking a button on a web thing, so really easy
[12:41] <Randomskk> but people can then test their document by themselves first
[12:41] <Randomskk> (and testing documents needn't expire)
[12:41] <Randomskk> (only real flight docs expire, as each represents a real flight)
[12:41] <daveake> That would be great, especially if say I want to change the telemetry slightly
[12:42] <Randomskk> (but it'l be one click to copy an old flight doc for your payload into a new one)
[12:42] <Randomskk> yea, this was meant to be here a couple of weeks ago but wombat happened on a tight timescale, today's my last day of intense work though so hopefully in the next couple of weeks I can get most of this done
[12:42] <daveake> No rush :)
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[13:01] <griffonbot> Received email: navrac "Re: [UKHAS] Launch announcement: UoS ASTRA Project - Friday 16th
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[13:11] <griffonbot> Received email: navrac "Re: [UKHAS] Launch announcement: UoS ASTRA Project - Friday 16th
[13:13] <Morseman> Being able to have the additional data like temperatures etc would be a nic-to-have as well
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[13:14] <Morseman> OK - just finishing cuppa, setting works PC to do weekly back up and off to collect Kate from work - Hope ASTRA doesn't get too high before I get back ;-)
[13:14] <Morseman> nic = nice
[13:15] <LazyLeopard> Any idea when Astra's due to launch?
[13:15] <Morseman> 13:00 to 15:00 (ISH)
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[13:17] <LazyLeopard> Saw that one. Just wondered whether there'd been any narrowing down of the window... ;)
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[13:17] <Morseman> It's listed on spacenear.us but nothing showing on the map as yet so maybe not yet switched on or trackers have not set up yet?
[13:17] <LazyLeopard> (...or widening out, for that matter...)
[13:18] <fsphil> at least they're honest with the launch time :)
[13:18] <LazyLeopard> Yeah. ;) No sign of actual balloon activity on the tracker yet, though.
[13:19] <NigeyS> all hab time should be EBT
[13:20] <NigeyS> Estimated Bill time :D
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[13:37] <gonzo_> or Build Time, as it seems that development is going on upto (and during) launch
[13:38] <UpuWork> gonzo_ built the boards but my test gear is at home so will post Mondya
[13:39] <gonzo_> UpuWork, that's fine. I'm in no rush at all.
[13:40] <UpuWork> cheers
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[13:55] <benoxley> LazyLeopard: the launch site has no radio so no decodes will be done until it's in the air
[13:56] <LazyLeopard> Ah. And the nearest radio is where?
[13:56] <UpuWork> hi ben can we get confirmation when its up so we can start listening
[13:58] <Laurenceb> http://ph.parker.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product2_10151_12051_12163_-1_14107_14107_14097_ProductDisplayErrorView
[13:59] <benoxley> LazyLeopard: here
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[13:59] <NigeyS> Laurenceb, 8mm? :o teeeeeny
[13:59] <benoxley> will do UpuWork
[14:00] <UpuWork> cheers
[14:00] <Laurenceb> sensortechnics sell them, but parker have a webstore XD
[14:00] <benoxley> NigeyS: got your rig pointed towards camborne?
[14:00] <Darkside> ooh
[14:00] <Darkside> gas release valce
[14:00] <NigeyS> indeed i have benoxley
[14:00] <benoxley> excellent :) I'm guessing you'll probably pick it up first
[14:01] <NigeyS> hope so lol
[14:01] <LazyLeopard> Right.... Looks like the yagi might be a good idea...
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[14:03] <Darkside> Laurenceb: reckon that aperture would be enough for a gas release?
[14:04] <G0DJA> Any news on the ASTRA release yet?
[14:04] <benoxley> not yet
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[14:05] <G0DJA> OK - was wondering if I'd missed it whilst I was out
[14:06] <Laurenceb> Darkside: pushing it
[14:06] <Laurenceb> theres a lot of gas in a balloon
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[14:06] <Darkside> Laurenceb: whats the differential pressure at altitude?
[14:07] <Darkside> wouldn't you need a wire aperture?
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[14:07] <benoxley> Darkside: will tell you the dp in a few weeks
[14:08] <Darkside> woo
[14:09] <Laurenceb> Darkside: maybe a butterfly valve
[14:09] <fsphil> woo woo?
[14:09] <Laurenceb> woowoo
[14:09] <Darkside> Laurenceb: so you think its going to be high pressure?
[14:10] <Laurenceb> huh
[14:10] <benoxley> been having a lot of trouble finding a suitable valve
[14:10] <Laurenceb> no, very low
[14:10] <Darkside> yeah this is what i thought too
[14:10] <benoxley> pressure is <1kpa
[14:10] <Darkside> so you'll need a wide aperture to do it
[14:10] <Laurenceb> the problem is at high altitude you need to dump loads of volume
[14:10] <Darkside> i was thinking of making a ball valve with a solenoid and a ping-pong ball
[14:10] <benoxley> but density is less
[14:10] <Laurenceb> with a diff pressure of a few tens of Pa
[14:11] <Laurenceb> but at low altitude the pressure differential is orders of mag more
[14:11] <Laurenceb> and theres less volume
[14:11] <Laurenceb> so leaks matter more
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[14:11] <Laurenceb> its very hard
[14:12] <benoxley> Laurenceb: the low density means higher volume flow at low pressure
[14:12] <benoxley> well, similar
[14:12] <Laurenceb> thats true
[14:13] <Laurenceb> but the delta pressure is still lower
[14:13] <Darkside> what about balloon elasticity?
[14:13] <Laurenceb> exactly
[14:13] <Laurenceb> thats what im talking about
[14:14] <benoxley> you have to play off elasticity against volume
[14:14] <Laurenceb> maybe a balloon in a tube as the vavle
[14:14] <benoxley> ip decreases with volume
[14:14] <Laurenceb> silicone rubber balloon in a wide plastic tube
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[14:16] <Laurenceb> or maybe a donut of silicone rubber with a tens shaped membrane
[14:16] <Laurenceb> *tent
[14:16] <Laurenceb> "inflate" it with methanol or something ... that doesnt dissolve the rubber
[14:16] <Laurenceb> using a diaphragm pump and solenoid valves
[14:17] <Darkside> so yeah, i was going to make a big ball valve
[14:17] <Darkside> which will either use a small solenoid or a screw system to open and close it
[14:17] <Laurenceb> hmm
[14:17] <Darkside> and that goes in the neck of the balloon
[14:17] <Laurenceb> yeah actually a screw might work
[14:17] <Laurenceb> oh wait
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[14:17] <Laurenceb> you have really low diff pressure
[14:18] <Darkside> http://i.imgur.com/ZKhCJ.png
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[14:18] <Laurenceb> so it is say 5cm diamter or something then you are going to have about 100mN force
[14:18] <Darkside> that was the original concept
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[14:18] <benoxley> Darkside: will show you what ive been working on later
[14:18] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[14:19] <NickB1> Hell lunar
[14:19] <Laurenceb> yeah
[14:19] <NickB1> *Hello :)
[14:19] <Laurenceb> i think you only need about 100mN
[14:19] <Darkside> Laurenceb: i'd use a screw instead of a solenoid probably
[14:19] <Darkside> but that kind of idea
[14:19] <fsphil> would it not be simpler simply to pinch the neck with a solenoid
[14:19] <Laurenceb> screws might suffer from freezing grease
[14:19] <Laurenceb> but yeah itd be zero power
[14:19] <Laurenceb> but youd need a geared motor etc
[14:20] <Darkside> yeah, not hard to get them Laurenceb
[14:20] <Laurenceb> lots of potential for issues at crazy low tems
[14:20] <Darkside> like something out of a model helicopter ot whatever
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[14:21] <fsphil> you'd need a little fan mounted in the neck if you wanted to dump helium quickly
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[14:22] <Laurenceb> http://uk.farnell.com/ledex/151092-229/solenoid-tubular-pull-continuous/dp/1704810
[14:22] <Laurenceb> would work
[14:23] <Lunar_Lander> we are discussing balloon valves?
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[14:23] <Laurenceb> but about 1.5W for the ping pong ball
[14:23] <Laurenceb> yes
[14:23] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[14:23] <Laurenceb> i made one with polypipe and a solenoid - its on the wiki
[14:24] <Laurenceb> but i doubt itd work well at very high altitudes
[14:24] <SpeedEvil> fsphil: how would a fan help at all
[14:24] <SpeedEvil> fsphil: Oh - an extra 100pA over the valve?
[14:24] <fsphil> yea
[14:24] <fsphil> though with the really low pressure it would have ot spin pretty fast
[14:24] <fsphil> and might freeze
[14:24] <SpeedEvil> I question it'd actually do that at a few hundreds of Pa in helium though
[14:24] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[14:25] <fsphil> I suppose the trick here is doing it with the least moving parts
[14:25] <benoxley> launch in 15-20 mins
[14:25] <kokey> what's the most popular cut-offs at the moment?
[14:26] <Laurenceb> i guess geared motor driving a screw operated valve is most sane
[14:27] <Laurenceb> youd need to know position.. maybe detect the motor stalling is it reached an endpoint
[14:27] <benoxley> Laurenceb: heavy though
[14:27] <Laurenceb> and replace all the grease, check for operation at low temp
[14:27] <Laurenceb> not really
[14:27] <Lunar_Lander> there is a flight imminent?
[14:27] <benoxley> and difficult to fit in the balloon neck
[14:27] <Laurenceb> hundered grams or so
[14:27] <fsphil> Lunar_Lander, yea
[14:27] <Lunar_Lander> which one
[14:27] <Laurenceb> if made with small kit
[14:27] <fsphil> astra
[14:28] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[14:28] <Laurenceb> solenoids work but loads of current
[14:29] <fsphil> if the pressure differential is low, would a weak electromagnet be useful to push open a valve
[14:29] <fsphil> which I suppose is a solenoid
[14:29] Action: fsphil shushes
[14:29] <daveake> http://www.pneumadyne.com/normally-closed-latching-solenoid-valves-p-1448-l-en.html
[14:29] <daveake> Just an idea
[14:30] <OZ1SKY_Brian> hi, any news on astra?
[14:30] <benoxley> launch in about 15 mins
[14:31] <OZ1SKY_Brian> tnx
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[14:33] <Laurenceb> http://felixbaumgartner.com/index.php?id=8
[14:34] <Laurenceb> crappy site
[14:35] <SpeedEvil> The burst volume is what - 60m^3 ish. If you want to kill a percent a minute - that's 1m^3/min. Pressure is ~1% of atmospheric - let's say differential pressure is a third of that, or 400Pa.
[14:35] <SpeedEvil> For these assumptions - a couple of calculators say ~16mm orifice for air.
[14:38] <kokey> haha, I confused the rail track for a projected flight path
[14:38] <Laurenceb> id say diff pressure at ~35Km float is <100pa
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[14:39] <kokey> what's the predicted landing area?
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[14:39] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: Plausible, I guess.
[14:39] <benoxley> launch very soon
[14:40] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: Actually - that's almost certainly low
[14:40] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: Or is it.
[14:40] <SpeedEvil> I guess it depends if we're out of the elastic region
[14:41] <griffonbot> @apexhab: The #apexhab balloon display has improved since yesterday. #ukhas http://t.co/wLJRi9QG [http://twitter.com/apexhab/status/180664985456881666]
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[14:45] <griffonbot> @b3noxley: RT @SotonASTRA: ASTRA 10 airborne, currently heading north west along the Cornish coast. #ukhas [http://twitter.com/b3noxley/status/180666065884418049]
[14:46] <Lunar_Lander> can't see it on spacenear
[14:46] <OZ1SKY_Brian> nothing on spacenear?
[14:46] <fsphil> probably no receivers yet
[14:46] <Lunar_Lander> but normally balloons show up before launch?
[14:46] NickB1 (c24e2462@gateway/web/freenode/ip.194.78.36.98) joined #highaltitude.
[14:47] <Lunar_Lander> wb NickB1
[14:47] <benoxley> no-one at the launch site has a reciever
[14:47] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[14:47] <Lunar_Lander> where are you in the UK?
[14:47] <HixPad> Think chase car has Rex
[14:47] <Lunar_Lander> I mean where is the Cornish coast
[14:47] <HixPad> Sw ll
[14:47] <daveake> cornwall
[14:48] <Lunar_Lander> ah, thanks
[14:48] <HixPad> Google lands end
[14:48] <Lunar_Lander> I know that one
[14:48] <HixPad> Rough I
[14:48] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[14:48] <Lunar_Lander> so it has to show up near Plymouth or Exeter
[14:48] <NickB1> Got your adress Lunar_lander, will post it monday
[14:48] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[14:48] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[14:48] <benoxley> back in 5 mins
[14:49] <Laurenceb> launching from the NEC?
[14:49] <fsphil> that's a test Laurenceb
[14:49] <Laurenceb> ah
[14:49] <HixPad> Think box might have summat to saybaboutbthat
[14:50] <Laurenceb> yeah its a bit close to birmingham airport
[14:51] <NickB1> Is Astra launched ?
[14:51] <fsphil> I do worry that launching without a radio has meant they don't know if it's working
[14:51] <daveake> +1
[14:51] <fsphil> NickB1, yea. not receivers yet
[14:51] <fsphil> not/no
[14:52] <fsphil> someone should be hearing it by now
[14:52] <NickB1> oh ok thx
[14:55] <UpuWork> is it up ?
[14:55] <benoxley> anything yet?
[14:55] <NigeyS> nowt yet
[14:55] <benoxley> oh dear
[14:55] <benoxley> not again
[14:56] <Upu> 434.068.290 possibly
[14:56] <Upu> very very faint
[14:56] <Upu> if it is the signal
[14:56] <fsphil> ah, fair bit lower than expected
[14:57] <Upu> might not be it
[14:57] <Upu> anyone close who can try that ?
[14:57] <fsphil> daveake or gonzo_ would be the closest
[14:58] <GW8RAK> 40C in Devon can't hear anything
[14:58] <gonzo_> I'm at work at the mo. But will see if there are any traces remote (can't select antennas though remote)
[14:58] <navrac> nothing hear - but im a good distance away
[14:58] <navrac> here even
[14:58] <Upu> something on the waterfall @ 434.6068
[14:59] <Upu> see if it gets stronger
[14:59] <Upu> 434.068
[14:59] <fsphil> is it drifting?
[15:00] <NigeyS> theres something centered around 1000
[15:01] <gonzo_> ah, and can't switch the IF or audio pathe remore either. Damn
[15:01] <griffonbot> Received email: Chris Hembrow "[UKHAS] Launch calendar"
[15:02] <benoxley> its not up yet
[15:02] <benoxley> :P
[15:02] <NigeyS> bah lol
[15:02] <benoxley> ASTRA 10 is the gadgeteer payload
[15:02] <benoxley> haha
[15:02] <benoxley> i hate not being on-site
[15:02] <Matt_soton> nice of him to tell us in advance, we were off to the pub
[15:02] <daveake> premature twitting?
[15:02] <NigeyS> i bet lol
[15:03] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[15:03] <NigeyS> goes to show howmuch noise i have though, its hurrendous, its picking my mouse ffs! lol
[15:03] <benoxley> ASTRA 10 is a gsm only payload of gadgeteer .net stuff
[15:03] <OZ1SKY_Brian> dl-fldigi sw dl link not working ?
[15:04] <Upu> what link do you have Brian ?
[15:04] <OZ1SKY_Brian> https://github.com/downloads/jamescoxon/dl-fldigi/dl-fldigi-3.20.29.r115.1.exe
[15:04] <OZ1SKY_Brian> from ukhas site
[15:04] <Upu> that link works here
[15:05] <Lunar_Lander> benoxley: so the balloon won't show on spacenear?
[15:05] <OZ1SKY_Brian> ok?
[15:05] <Upu> hang on
[15:05] <benoxley> nope Lunar_Lander
[15:05] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[15:05] <OZ1SKY_Brian> "Page did not respond in a timely fashion.
[15:05] <OZ1SKY_Brian> Check our status site for alerts.
[15:05] <daveake> Aah ... I'm going to be a Great Uncle (again)
[15:05] <OZ1SKY_Brian> "
[15:05] <benoxley> should get a text when its up hopefully :)
[15:05] <Lunar_Lander> daveake: that sounds good
[15:05] <LazyLeopard> benoxley: You can add "Someone at launch site must have a working radio tracker" to your launch checklist. ;)
[15:05] <daveake> really?
[15:05] <daveake> :D
[15:05] <Lunar_Lander> hm well
[15:05] <NigeyS> benoxley, if u can get them to text u the dial freq as soon as you know it, ive got alot of noise here :/
[15:06] <Upu> OZ1SKY_Brian https://github.com/jamescoxon/dl-fldigi/downloads
[15:06] <Upu> try that
[15:06] <daveake> LazyLeopard +1
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[15:06] <Lunar_Lander> it's another person you need to get a xmas gift and birthday gift
[15:06] <Lunar_Lander> and all the other things
[15:06] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[15:06] <Lunar_Lander> but I think that doesn't really matter
[15:06] <daveake> quite
[15:06] <benoxley> NigeyS: no-one there has a radio
[15:06] <daveake> wow
[15:06] <NigeyS> ah sorry keep forgetting
[15:07] <NigeyS> ill walk round with the yagi like a lemon for a bit lol
[15:07] <Matt_soton> they know if it has gps lock however
[15:07] <benoxley> haha
[15:07] <Lunar_Lander> xD NigeyS
[15:07] <daveake> I assume there's some special reason as to why the people and kit that should be there, aren't?
[15:07] <Darkside> but htey don't know if its transmitting...
[15:07] <benoxley> I'll let you know when its up in the air
[15:07] <Lunar_Lander> Darkside: yea
[15:07] <Darkside> thats kind of... scary
[15:07] <OZ1SKY_Brian> Upu thanks
[15:07] <Matt_soton> mind you providing he can remember the frequency of LED sd card flashes when it has and doestn have lock
[15:07] <Darkside> we *always* confirm telemetry before launch
[15:07] <benoxley> the person with a radio is tracking from wales for recovery
[15:07] <Lunar_Lander> I remember a youtube video from one of these hackerspaces
[15:07] <Lunar_Lander> two guys discussed a balloon payload
[15:07] <daveake> It's kind of ... well I'm thinking of a word ending in "witted" and beginning with a shorter word
[15:07] <benoxley> Darkside: it's not how I would do it
[15:07] <Lunar_Lander> they had a arduino mega and a GPS shield and GSM shield
[15:07] <HixPad> So it is actually up yeah?
[15:08] <Lunar_Lander> and a shield with temperature sensors
[15:08] <Lunar_Lander> but I never heard of them flying
[15:08] <Lunar_Lander> also, the one guy always made a joke of what the other was explaining
[15:08] <Lunar_Lander> and he was smoking an electric cigarette
[15:08] <Upu> not up HixPad
[15:08] <Darkside> Lunar_Lander: that tracking method only works in countries with blanket gsm coverage
[15:08] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[15:08] <Darkside> and only once it lands
[15:08] <Lunar_Lander> they were from the US
[15:08] <Lunar_Lander> would it have worked?
[15:08] <Darkside> completely fucking useless here
[15:08] <Darkside> probably not
[15:09] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[15:09] <Darkside> though it depends where it lands
[15:09] <HixPad> Ah cheers Upu
[15:09] <Darkside> the problem in australia is we have damn good 3g coverage
[15:09] <Darkside> but not good gsm coverage
[15:09] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[15:09] <HixPad> Anyone know how to get a name highlighted in colloquy for iPad?
[15:09] <Lunar_Lander> 3g is iphone?
[15:09] <Darkside> uhhh
[15:09] <benoxley> damn, no longer sticking to the launch estimate :(
[15:09] <Darkside> no.
[15:09] <daveake> In the UK you'd have a pretty good chance but certainly not 100% of landing within GSM coverage
[15:09] <Lunar_Lander> oh ok
[15:10] <Lunar_Lander> well I see it here at home
[15:10] <Darkside> Lunar_Lander: we have very good WCDMA coverage, with the really large network
[15:10] <gonzo_> and a 70% chance of landing in the sea
[15:10] <daveake> Buzz1 landed outside. GSM in the car less than a mile away, but nothing where it landed
[15:10] <Lunar_Lander> often my cell shows "only emergency calls"
[15:10] <Lunar_Lander> ah Darkside
[15:10] <Lunar_Lander> btw, Faraday was right!
[15:10] <Darkside> so yeah, very good WCDMA coverage, not very good GSM coverage
[15:10] <daveake> "only emergency calls" means there's a signal with another provider
[15:10] <Darkside> and you don't find UMTS data shields
[15:10] <Lunar_Lander> when I am in the elevator at uni, the signal drops to absolutely zero
[15:10] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[15:11] <Lunar_Lander> yeah daveake, Darkside
[15:11] <Darkside> especially not for 850MHz WCDMA
[15:12] <Darkside> ok its 1:40am here
[15:12] <Darkside> i need to sleep
[15:12] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[15:12] <Lunar_Lander> good night
[15:12] <Darkside> nn
[15:12] <number10> nn
[15:12] <G0DJA> GN Darkside
[15:13] <G0DJA> Tracker station called 40C appeared on the map in Cornwall
[15:13] <GW8RAK> He can't hear anything down there
[15:15] <chris_99> anyone know how high GSM signals can be sent/received?
[15:15] <HixPad> Someone said approx 2km
[15:16] <NigeyS> about 2 > 2.5km ?
[15:16] <jonsowman> maybe 5km sometimes if you're lucky
[15:16] <chris_99> aha, so not terribly high
[15:16] <HixPad> Satellite module....
[15:16] <chris_99> heh
[15:16] <HixPad> Expensive
[15:16] <jonsowman> sat modems are cool
[15:17] <OZ1SKY_Brian> alot higher, ive seen one check email on his phone over island in a plain
[15:18] <Lunar_Lander> iceland?
[15:18] <OZ1SKY_Brian> yes iceland
[15:18] <gonzo_> I would expect them to work anywhere within a 32km raduis of the base
[15:18] <Randomskk> why?
[15:18] <Randomskk> the radiation pattern is not uniform
[15:18] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[15:19] <Randomskk> nothing has a uniform radiation pattern for that matter, but especially not GSM base stations
[15:19] <jonsowman> in fact it's purposefully non-uniform
[15:19] <Randomskk> which are (for obvious reasons) designed to radiate horizontally only
[15:19] <gonzo_> but there may be other problems of the phone being able to see hundreds of more remote, but strong base signals at height
[15:20] <gonzo_> even if the base antennas only have a tiny % of signal going up. We get 100's km with 10mw, so will phones
[15:20] <HixPad> Any news on Apex?
[15:20] <benoxley> in the air now *for real*
[15:20] <HixPad> Just been hacking the yogi
[15:20] <HixPad> Yagi
[15:20] <HixPad> Now it has bnc
[15:21] <HixPad> Whoop
[15:21] <jonsowman> gonzo_: we use very directional antennas on the ground, for a start
[15:21] <HixPad> 434.075 yeah?
[15:21] <benoxley> who knows :P
[15:21] <daveake> lol
[15:21] <jonsowman> haha
[15:21] <UpuWork> having a tune about
[15:22] <HixPad> That code for whistling UpuWork
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[15:23] <Randomskk> gonzo_: phones are at significantly more than 50 baud, for one thing
[15:23] <gonzo_> jonsowman, we still get long ragnes with low power using low gain omnis
[15:23] <Randomskk> and use totally different frequencies and modulations for another
[15:23] <Randomskk> I mean, I'm not saying it's impossible for phones to get signal in planes
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[15:24] <Randomskk> certainly that can happen, but typically on short-distance, low-altitude planes
[15:24] <Randomskk> which are within the kind of rough ideas of how high you can get GSM signal that were already said
[15:24] <HixPad> What's a rough theory for the radio horizon expansion rate at 5m/s?
[15:24] <gonzo_> yep, that is true, but given the base tx of say 100watts, I still recon it is going to be quite a fog of RF as seen fron altitude
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[15:24] <Randomskk> there are loads of other issues too, like the maximum acceptable path distance in GSM before latency breaks communication
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[15:24] <daveake> I left my phone on accidentally once, and had a couple of "welcome to germany" types messages on it after
[15:24] <Randomskk> gonzo_: there's more to it than just received signal strength, though that alone is going to be a major factor as it really will drop off quickly
[15:25] <Randomskk> the phone has to be able to talk back to the ground station, for instance
[15:25] <Randomskk> and is certainly not 100W
[15:25] <daveake> So it can work, ish
[15:25] <gonzo_> the licences in the UK are often 1kw (though that's a total erp)
[15:26] <Upu> anyone got a sniff yet ?
[15:26] <daveake> nope
[15:26] <NigeyS> not yet
[15:26] <HixPad> Nope
[15:26] <Upu> what was the planned accent rate and where did it launch from
[15:26] <jonsowman> is anyone tracking at the launch site benoxley?
[15:26] <jonsowman> Upu: Camborne
[15:26] <benoxley> nope
[15:26] <benoxley> no radio
[15:26] <jonsowman> NB: not Cambourne ;)
[15:26] <daveake> "no" is the answer to any question you might think of
[15:27] <benoxley> pretty much daveake :(
[15:27] <HixPad> No radio benoxley ?
[15:27] <UpuWork> Cornwall ?
[15:27] <daveake> yes
[15:27] <daveake> damn
[15:27] <jonsowman> Upu: eys
[15:27] <UpuWork> thats like miles away
[15:27] <benoxley> we're tracking from soton
[15:27] <jonsowman> Upu: lol
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[15:27] <benoxley> more launch uncontrol than launch site though
[15:27] <HixPad> :D
[15:28] <Morseman> Do we know how high it is yet?
[15:28] <daveake> no
[15:28] <daveake> If "no" wasn't such a short word I'd have it on speed-dial
[15:29] <benoxley> im just using up and enter
[15:29] <daveake> lol
[15:29] <Morseman> * The sound of several radios all being tuned blindly wrround 434.075 ensues
[15:29] <jonsowman> lol
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[15:29] <UpuWork> do we know what the planned accent rate was ?
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[15:29] <benoxley> no
[15:29] <daveake> yes
[15:29] <daveake> well, no
[15:29] <UpuWork> did it have a balloon on it ?
[15:29] <benoxley> 4m/s
[15:29] <HixPad> :P
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[15:30] <UpuWork> well 2.4km
[15:30] <benoxley> used this balloon http://www.geekosystem.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Air-Swimmers.jpg
[15:30] <jonsowman> ahaha
[15:30] <benoxley> that is what everyone uses right?
[15:31] <NigeyS> lol
[15:31] <jonsowman> no but i'm seriously considering it
[15:31] <fsphil> we no get signal?
[15:31] <benoxley> nope :/
[15:31] <staylo> That's weird, I was working all the start of this week in Camborne for the only time in my life, and did the 6 hour drive back yesterday. The only logical conclusion I can draw from this coincidence is that a) You're all part of a Truman Show style plot to create interesting events in my life, and b) None of you are very good at it
[15:31] <daveake> I want this one - http://blog.nj.com/hudsoncountynow_impact/2008/11/large_buzz-lightyear-balloon-macys-thanksgiving-day-parade.jpg
[15:31] <NigeyS> not yet
[15:31] <jonsowman> it'll be a few minutes
[15:32] <benoxley> staylo: haha
[15:32] <jonsowman> staylo: excellent :D
[15:32] <Hiena> Maybe, Sardine-ballon cluster would suit us better.
[15:32] <Morseman> Don't get into the boat staylo
[15:33] <benoxley> estimated rate of ascent is 3.8m/s
[15:34] <daveake> estimated rate of dave getting bored and making a cuppa = high
[15:34] <benoxley> should be at 3km by now...
[15:34] <benoxley> can we just type fake packets into habitat and pretend?
[15:35] <Laurenceb> has anyone got a signal?
[15:35] <griffonbot> @LVL1WhiteStar: 5v switching regulator only putting out 4.5v! That's too damn low for the sat modem. What to do, what to do... #UKHAS #EE [http://twitter.com/LVL1WhiteStar/status/180678600515792896]
[15:35] <UpuWork> scanning
[15:35] <daveake> Yesy "40C" isn't showing any telemetry yet
[15:35] <daveake> s/yesy/Yet
[15:35] <jonsowman> benoxley: yeah sure
[15:36] <jonsowman> pick a location and altitude :D
[15:36] <benoxley> moon
[15:36] <daveake> tomorrow
[15:36] <number10> looks like I have been missing the excitement with astra
[15:36] <jonsowman> 'excitement'
[15:36] <benoxley> everyone is missing excitement
[15:36] <number10> :D
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[15:36] <daveake> excr.... yeah, excitement
[15:36] <jonsowman> lol
[15:37] <benoxley> the ntxs drift down frequency with low temp right?
[15:37] <jonsowman> yes
[15:37] <Dutch-Mill> and low batt ;-)
[15:38] <jonsowman> who's 40C?
[15:38] <benoxley> im going for in a tree
[15:38] <UpuWork> benoxley what was the NTX2 on when you tested it ?
[15:39] <benoxley> what do you mean?
[15:39] <jonsowman> dial frequency
[15:39] <benoxley> freq wise?
[15:39] <daveake> what freq did you tune ti?
[15:39] <UpuWork> yep that
[15:39] <benoxley> .074
[15:39] <daveake> ta
[15:39] <jonsowman> spot on then
[15:39] <jonsowman> for a 1kHz tone out of the receiver anyway
[15:39] <UpuWork> should be about 5km now
[15:40] <benoxley> well thats a nice payload lost :/
[15:40] <jonsowman> delay your pessimism
[15:41] <UpuWork> yeah give it till 10km
[15:41] <UpuWork> if the ascent rate is correct
[15:41] <navrac> something really weak is on 434.073.9 here
[15:41] <UpuWork> lets assume its lower
[15:41] <HixPad> What was launch time
[15:41] <Morseman> Takes to about 5km to see anything from Cambridge here...
[15:41] <benoxley> anybody else seeing something on .059
[15:41] <benoxley> i know its very low....
[15:41] <UpuWork> checking
[15:42] <benoxley> signal drifting downwards@ 1000Hz
[15:42] <UpuWork> nothing here
[15:42] <benoxley> okay
[15:43] <UpuWork> lol can't get the radio back on 70cms
[15:43] <Morseman> Wondering if should try the beam even though horizontal polarisation
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[15:44] <UpuWork> you need a better launch crew benoxley :/
[15:45] <Morseman> A straight line on about the 'right' freq here
[15:45] <benoxley> UpuWork: tell me about it :/
[15:45] <benoxley> we didn't even get an invite to go and help launch
[15:45] <daveake> Invite? I think you should insist you go
[15:45] <jonsowman> agreed
[15:46] <Morseman> No - too steady and no parallel signal for the mark or space
[15:46] <benoxley> it's not as simple as that
[15:46] <Graeme_SHARP> Ben, who is down there? Just Andras and some ECS students?
[15:46] <benoxley> just andras
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[15:47] Action: jonsowman watches habitat's parser log
[15:48] <benoxley> I don't have enough money for accomodation/transport so unless they pay i have no choice
[15:48] Action: daveake watches the kettle
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[15:49] <daveake> Well, if they don't want to spend any money on helping make sure it works, then they're risking wasting the time and money spent on the project
[15:49] <HixPad> I'm thinking of firing up my radiometrix just so I hear some rtty
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[15:49] <daveake> lol
[15:49] <number10> is it worth setting up the antenna
[15:49] <daveake> I hear it all the time :D
[15:49] <daveake> not yet
[15:49] <UpuWork> probably not number10
[15:50] <jonsowman> it's not looking hopeful
[15:50] <jonsowman> :(
[15:50] <daveake> And if it was actually at 3k 10 mins ago, I suspect it won't be either
[15:50] <UpuWork> ok lets assume they underfilled it
[15:50] <number10> maybe I'll do it for xaben launch tomorrow
[15:50] <UpuWork> 6km
[15:50] <daveake> Ah
[15:50] <daveake> missed that one
[15:50] <UpuWork> yeah track that one
[15:50] <daveake> I mean, missed the 6km comment
[15:50] <UpuWork> well
[15:51] <daveake> I know XABEN is launching tomorrow
[15:51] <UpuWork> assume it was 3.4m/s
[15:51] <UpuWork> underfilled
[15:51] <UpuWork> doing about 2000meters every 10 mins
[15:51] <UpuWork> and launched at 15:20
[15:51] <daveake> ok
[15:51] <HixPad> daveake: UpuWork got a prediction yet?
[15:51] <daveake> Yeah. F***ed
[15:51] <UpuWork> I'd say if it doesn't show up by 16:00 anywhere gameover sorry benoxley
[15:51] <daveake> Oh, you mean OUR launch?
[15:52] <HixPad> Ha ha no for tomorrow
[15:52] <benoxley> UpuWork: its 3.8m/s
[15:52] <HixPad> Yah
[15:52] <daveake> Tomorrow? Not seen a prediction, no.
[15:52] <benoxley> UpuWork: im giving up already
[15:52] <UpuWork> scanning down from 434.085
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[15:55] <Laurenceb> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-17399985
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[15:55] <UpuWork> thats a proper payload
[15:56] <jonsowman> right well I must go, supervision
[15:56] <jonsowman> good luck benoxley
[15:56] <jonsowman> et al.
[15:57] <benoxley> should have just sent a person up and he could walk and tell us where he was
[15:57] <benoxley> damn :/
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[15:58] <UpuWork> I think I would insist you attend next time :/
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[15:58] <UpuWork> with a radio
[15:58] <HixPad> Pennywise pound foolish
[16:00] <NigeyS> eyup someones got it
[16:00] <Laurenceb> huh
[16:00] <NigeyS> 10km
[16:00] <benoxley> M0EYT
[16:00] <Morseman> Rob is in North Yorks!
[16:00] <HixPad> Yeahhh
[16:00] <F5MVO> appear ballon
[16:00] <fsphil> http://cubesat.bme.hu/en/2012/03/14/a-masat-1-elkeszitette-az-elsu-urfelveteleket/
[16:00] <griffonbot> Received email: Adrian Hicks "Re: [UKHAS] Launch calendar"
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[16:01] <F5MVO> astra1 appear
[16:01] <UpuWork> oh wow
[16:01] <Dutch-Mill> 434.072.72 ?
[16:01] <benoxley> can we get a dial freq?
[16:01] <Laurenceb> is it 300baud or something?
[16:01] <Laurenceb> seems to be updating fast
[16:01] <Morseman> Sorry - EYT isn't Rob!
[16:01] <benoxley> yes
[16:01] <Laurenceb> ah
[16:01] <pjm__> copy that astra1 'satellite' here in S. UK
[16:01] <benoxley> 300x15, 50x1
[16:01] <pjm__> m0eyt is me
[16:01] <Morseman> I think it's an old mate of mine from South Brum!
[16:01] <griffonbot> Received email: Solar Balloonman "[UKHAS] Re: NOTAMS"
[16:02] <Laurenceb> i dont see you on the map
[16:02] <fsphil> wait a second
[16:02] <fsphil> telemetry?
[16:02] <Upu> thats right in my blind spot
[16:02] <Upu> hey pjm__ whats the dial freq ?
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[16:03] <F5MVO> where is M0YET ?
[16:03] <Upu> "S.UK"
[16:03] <Laurenceb> in the sea
[16:03] <Upu> let me get a prediction loaded
[16:03] <benoxley> paul marsh apparently
[16:03] <F5MVO> IN THE BOAT ?
[16:03] <LazyLeopard> pjm__: Where on the dial is it?
[16:03] <Morseman> Hi pjm__ I think I'm getting you mixed up with someone else
[16:04] <pjm__> the dial free in USB is 434.0770
[16:04] <pjm__> for 1800cf FSK in audio
[16:04] <Upu> 0770 ?
[16:04] <Matt_soton> oh it goes up....
[16:04] <Upu> oh
[16:04] <LazyLeopard> Thanks. Very very faint here
[16:04] <costyn_> what's this then... launch from the sea or just no packets earlier than that?
[16:04] <Matt_soton> told you ben :P
[16:04] <pjm__> 434.0770MHz
[16:05] <Upu> don't see anything from here yet
[16:05] <HixPad> 2 more locks
[16:05] <HixPad> Sorry 1
[16:05] <NigeyS> faint here
[16:05] <fsphil> I'm not sure if I have coverage in that direction
[16:05] <fsphil> should do
[16:06] <Morseman> Hearing it here but narrower than advertised
[16:06] <Matt_soton> it would have reduced with temperature
[16:06] <F5MVO> external -4.4 ?
[16:07] <LazyLeopard> Shift hard to tell, but definitely nearer 350 than 400...
[16:07] <NigeyS> got it but shift is ??
[16:07] <Graham_G3VZV> ah yes - I can hear it in Milton Keynes..v weak tho 434.790
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[16:08] <fsphil> Graham_G3VZV, 790 or 079?
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[16:09] <daveake> 380 shift I think
[16:09] <Morseman> Got some of that last 50Hz transmission
[16:10] <pjm__> massive signal here!
[16:10] <UpuWork> suspect I have a pennines issue
[16:10] <UpuWork> 434.077 still ?
[16:10] <LazyLeopard> 300 is hopeless at this range. Got a 50 line though
[16:10] <Morseman> the 300baud is difficult to decode
[16:10] <LazyLeopard> Upu yes
[16:10] <pjm__> 434.077 yes
[16:11] <pjm__> i make it 302 baud
[16:11] <Graham_G3VZV> sorry 434.078.7 now USB
[16:11] <benoxley> doing okay from southampton
[16:11] <Laurenceb> we got massive ranges with the 300baud ages ago
[16:11] <Laurenceb> in 2006 with rocketboy
[16:12] <fsphil> 300 baud record is about 700km
[16:12] <Laurenceb> yeah
[16:12] <navrac> ah distinctive rtty now here in suffolk
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[16:13] <Laurenceb> maybe something isnt 100% with the antennui
[16:13] <Laurenceb> or something
[16:13] <fsphil> heading straight for you NigeyS
[16:13] <pjm__> actually 301.72 baud now
[16:13] <GW8RAK> For once 300 baud is easy to decode :)
[16:13] <NigeyS> yup cant decode though shifts all over the place
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[16:14] <fsphil> nothing here yet
[16:14] <GW8RAK> Loads of 300 bd decodes, but I don't appear on the map yet
[16:15] <daveake> Too much noise here
[16:15] <NigeyS> wat shift graham?
[16:15] <GW8RAK> default 425
[16:15] <HixPad> How often do 50 baud come?
[16:15] <GW8RAK> Huge signal and without the preamp
[16:16] <UpuWork> oh think I might just see it creeping out of the noise
[16:16] <UpuWork> NigelMoby its going to land on your house
[16:16] <UpuWork> sorta
[16:16] <fsphil> I see it on the waterfall
[16:17] <UpuWork> I don't :) This is not normal for me :)
[16:17] <F5MVO> GW8RAK, the 300 bauds ckecxum is good ?
[16:17] <UpuWork> actually I can see it
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[16:17] <GW8RAK> Yes F5MVO
[16:17] <fsphil> I make the shift to be 380 hz
[16:18] <Graham_G3VZV> shift seems to be 370 ish
[16:18] <LazyLeopard> I've got the 50 baud shift at 370
[16:18] <GW8RAK> Got any binoculars NigeyS?
[16:18] <benoxley> haha
[16:18] <fsphil> haha
[16:18] <fsphil> do it
[16:18] <NigeyS> lol yup
[16:18] <LazyLeopard> 300 baud is a bit trickier to tell, but looks narrower.
[16:19] <fsphil> it always does for some reason LazyLeopard
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[16:19] <LazyLeopard> 50 baud is solid. 300 baud is noisy.
[16:19] <fsphil> both too weak for me
[16:19] <NigeyS> thats what im finding
[16:20] <Upu> ditto
[16:20] <fsphil> starting to get bits of numbers
[16:20] <Upu> me too @ 50
[16:21] <LazyLeopard> I got it mostly reading 300 briefly, but he key word there is mostly... every line was red.
[16:21] <Morseman> Best so far on 50 baud $$ASTRA1,26940,q6"20:25,5053.5278,)p04Z0.8b26,10[91,%101,43*91B6
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[16:21] Nick change: Udin_SHARP_ -> Udin_SHARP
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[16:21] <fsphil> A026[;21:23,505.1g7,-00448.130l13874l-9.9,43*A12
[16:22] <fsphil> $$ASTRA1,26974,16:22:21,5054.7313,-00439.3593 14064,-9.8,436*4758
[16:22] <fsphil> so close
[16:22] <Laurenceb> i think somethings slightly screwed with the antenni
[16:22] <pjm__> also 50baud stuff with 384Hz shift
[16:22] <Upu> $$ASTrA1,26974,16:22:21,5054.7313,-00439.3593
[16:23] <pjm__> i have fixed my m0eyt location so i shouldnt be in the sea now
[16:23] <HixPad> 434.0787?
[16:23] navrac_ (545c0e05@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.92.14.5) joined #highaltitude.
[16:23] <Upu> 434.077 here
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[16:24] number10_ (569a24ab@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.154.36.171) joined #highaltitude.
[16:25] F5APQ (5a0163b8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.90.1.99.184) left irc: Ping timeout: 245 seconds
[16:25] <HixPad> Looks like its going to meet apex
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[16:25] <LazyLeopard> fsphil: You're not in your usual place on the map... ;)
[16:25] G8GTZ (5680425d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.128.66.93) left irc: Ping timeout: 245 seconds
[16:25] F5MVO (52e6b25d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.82.230.178.93) left irc: Ping timeout: 245 seconds
[16:26] Dutch-Mill (3e2d8519@gateway/web/freenode/ip.62.45.133.25) left irc: Ping timeout: 245 seconds
[16:26] <LazyLeopard> oops... network glitch there...
[16:26] <GW8RAK> With the preamp, signals are S9
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[16:26] Graham_G3VZV (5acb6cdb@gateway/web/freenode/ip.90.203.108.219) left irc: Ping timeout: 245 seconds
[16:26] <Morseman> So near ! $$ASTRA1,26940,q6"20:25,5053.5278,)p04Z0.8b26,10[91,%101,43*91B6
[16:26] Nick change: number10_ -> number10
[16:27] <Morseman> Ooops that was the old one!
[16:27] <Morseman> $ASTRA1,27038,16:26:13l5056.7730,-00436.159Z,14835,X.1,435*0A29
[16:27] <NigeyS> $ASTRA162705y,16:27s9,j057.4760,-X035.1145,15514,=30.^434:uA:E
[16:27] <NigeyS> grr
[16:28] daveake (daveake@daveake.plus.com) left #highaltitude.
[16:29] <UpuWork> yay got one
[16:29] <fsphil> here too
[16:30] Graham_G3VZV (5acb6cdb@gateway/web/freenode/ip.90.203.108.219) joined #highaltitude.
[16:30] <Morseman> That's the problem with just 1 TX in a particular mode - no chance to sight it up
[16:30] <fsphil> decoding most of the 300 now
[16:31] <UpuWork> and every 50 baud line local QRM
[16:31] F5APQ (5a0163b8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.90.1.99.184) joined #highaltitude.
[16:32] <fsphil> alpha dl-dlfigi not calculating bearing and distance
[16:32] <NigeyS> yey got 1 @ 50
[16:33] <UpuWork> your station isn't on the map fsphil
[16:34] <LazyLeopard> Getting some of the 300 now
[16:34] <fsphil> yea forgot to set my position UpuWork :)
[16:34] <fsphil> 460km range
[16:34] <GW8RAK> Where are you LazyLeopard?
[16:34] NickB1 (54c3b15f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.195.177.95) joined #highaltitude.
[16:34] <LazyLeopard> SE Lonndon
[16:35] Nick change: LazyLeopard -> LazyL_M0LEP
[16:35] Nick change: MLow -> MLow-werk
[16:35] Nick change: fsphil -> fsphil_2I0VIM
[16:35] <GW8RAK> Okay.
[16:35] <NickB1> great astra is being tracked :)
[16:35] <NickB1> whats the dial ?
[16:36] <GW8RAK> 434.077 with audio at 1700
[16:36] <fsphil_2I0VIM> decoding all of it now
[16:36] <fsphil_2I0VIM> shame they're not doing ssdv ;)
[16:37] <GW8RAK> Would be easy with these signal strengths fsphil_2I0IVIM
[16:37] daveake (~daveake@daveake.plus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[16:37] <LazyL_M0LEP> Mostly the lines which don't decode can be put down to local QRM bursts...
[16:38] <fsphil_2I0VIM> faded a bit
[16:38] <fsphil_2I0VIM> not decoding anymore
[16:38] Morseman (586f82ea@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.111.130.234) left irc: Quit: Page closed
[16:38] <GW8RAK> Has the shift reduced a bit?
[16:39] <fsphil_2I0VIM> working again
[16:41] <pjm__> i make the shift 328Hz for the 300 baud stuff
[16:41] <pjm__> well 301.74 baud
[16:41] <GW8RAK> It's coming down
[16:42] <fsphil_2I0VIM> it's about 10km closer to me now than when I started decoding
[16:42] <HixPad> GW8RAK: pop?
[16:42] <fsphil_2I0VIM> still ascending
[16:43] <fsphil_2I0VIM> wow
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[16:43] <fsphil_2I0VIM> what was that
[16:43] <GW8RAK> No, sorry, the shift is coming down.
[16:44] <fsphil_2I0VIM> I got a weird sound earlier that sounded like the ntx2 was cutting out
[16:47] _Hix (~Hix@87.194.200.92) joined #highaltitude.
[16:47] <pjm__> ah good i am no longer in the sea according to the map
[16:47] <gonzo_> best wipe your feet then
[16:48] <pjm__> lol
[16:48] G0DJA_ (586f82ea@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.111.130.234) joined #highaltitude.
[16:48] Nick change: G0DJA_ -> Morseman
[16:48] <fsphil_2I0VIM> I'm not even on the map :)
[16:48] <UpuWork> wow I got a 300 baud line
[16:48] <pjm__> these balloons do put some interest back into ham-radio
[16:48] <Morseman> A decode! Had to reboot PC as FLdigi getting clunky again
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[16:49] <Morseman> Distance and bearing not working properly again though
[16:49] <fsphil_2I0VIM> you need to press autoconfigure
[16:50] <LazyL_M0LEP> ...and maybe fix the NMEA setting too. ;)
[16:50] <fsphil_2I0VIM> must be well insulated, hasn't drift much at all
[16:51] <Morseman> Even got a couple of 300baud decodes that time!
[16:52] <Matt_soton> anyone else get interference ocassionally?
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[16:54] <fsphil_2I0VIM> I seem to be the only one getting some of these strings?
[16:54] <UpuWork> yep
[16:54] <NigeyS> 300 decoding lovely now
[16:55] <UpuWork> getting the odd one
[16:55] <UpuWork> I might need to increase the input but I can't do that remotely
[16:57] <UpuWork> right I'm off bb from home good luck benoxley
[16:57] <NigeyS> http://www.flickr.com/photos/nigeys/6987623157/in/photostream
[16:57] <NigeyS> lol
[16:58] jonquark (jonl@nat/ibm/x-xbdusgkfywopganr) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[16:59] <nigelvh> Now just hold that position for the next two hours.
[16:59] <NigeyS> lol no way, its on the whip now, nice strong stable signal
[17:01] <jonsowman> oh yay!
[17:01] <jonsowman> it's working then?
[17:01] <NigeyS> oh yes very nicely
[17:01] <fsphil_2I0VIM> indeed
[17:01] <fsphil_2I0VIM> wasn't expecting it
[17:01] <jonsowman> superb
[17:02] <NigeyS> every line a green light for the last 30 mins :D
[17:02] <fsphil_2I0VIM> even the 300 baud data
[17:02] <fsphil_2I0VIM> although I'm still not on the map :)
[17:02] Graeme_SHARP (~androirc@82.132.210.94) joined #highaltitude.
[17:02] <NigeyS> gonna be sick of the sound of rtty by the time this land though lol
[17:02] <jonsowman> :D
[17:03] <Morseman> Even when I get a good decode I don't get added to the list of receivers :-(
[17:03] <jonsowman> Morseman: what's your callsign?
[17:03] <Morseman> G0DJA
[17:03] <jonsowman> have you set that in dl-fldigi?
[17:03] <daveake> Right, I'm receiving now, after moving the antenna to another window :-), and resolving an argument between a UPS and a vacuum cleaner ....
[17:04] <jonsowman> daveake: lol
[17:04] <NigeyS> lol
[17:04] <fsphil_2I0VIM> who won?
[17:04] <NigeyS> i was stood on the chair 20mins ago dave!
[17:04] <Morseman> AH there I am :-)
[17:04] <fsphil_2I0VIM> frequency drifted a bit there
[17:04] <daveake> Well how was I to know that the row of sockets were UPS-powered. It's not as if I connected them up.
[17:04] <daveake> Oh, I did .....
[17:04] <_Hix> :D
[17:04] <NigeyS> haha duh!
[17:04] <Morseman> jonsowman - yes, it's been working OK on other balloons
[17:05] <jonsowman> Morseman: appears to be working now
[17:05] <daveake> All fine, but there was that suspicous smell you get after the escape of magic smoke. But apparently that's cos the vac is on its last legs
[17:05] <griffonbot> Received email: Roger D "[UKHAS] UKSEDS Conference Canterbury | NTX2 | picoHAB"
[17:05] <fsphil_2I0VIM> ah ha, I'm on the map
[17:05] <LazyL_M0LEP> Fixes are coming in too fast for the tracker's website updates? I think it shows the latest line, and if your system is even slightly sluggish then someone else will get the next line in before you get the previous one...
[17:05] <LazyL_M0LEP> ...or something like that...
[17:05] <Morseman> Now all I need is for the distance and bearing system to work!
[17:06] <Matt_soton> we're off home
[17:06] <jonsowman> Matt_soton: not tracking Matt_soton?
[17:06] <Matt_soton> box seems to keep everything nice and freq stable
[17:06] <LazyL_M0LEP> Make sure the payload field numbers are configured.
[17:06] <Matt_soton> the computers tracking
[17:06] <Matt_soton> it doesnt need me
[17:06] <jonsowman> does it have rig tuning?
[17:06] <Matt_soton> its not moving at all
[17:06] <Matt_soton> but it does actually
[17:06] <Matt_soton> but not set up
[17:06] <jonsowman> nice :)
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[17:06] <jonsowman> oh
[17:06] <jonsowman> you should set that up
[17:07] <Matt_soton> itll mess up satellites though which uses it
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[17:07] cuddykid (~acudworth@host-78-145-200-39.as13285.net) joined #highaltitude.
[17:09] <fsphil_2I0VIM> this is all working rather well
[17:09] <fsphil_2I0VIM> 2 dl-fldigis running, and I can still stream the audio to another PC so I can hear it
[17:09] <NigeyS> nicey
[17:09] <NigeyS> this things going to fly over my house dammit!
[17:09] <fsphil_2I0VIM> clear skies? :)
[17:10] <NigeyS> hah as if, overcast im afraid :/
[17:10] <fsphil_2I0VIM> actually brightening up here
[17:10] <NigeyS> give us our sun back!
[17:10] <griffonbot> Received email: "Re: [UKHAS] Re: NOTAMS"
[17:10] gp_pl (~MAtt@bdh148.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) left irc:
[17:10] <fsphil_2I0VIM> signal fading a bit
[17:10] <NigeyS> its drifting slightly east
[17:12] <Morseman> Definately do better with 50 baud here
[17:13] <jonsowman> or a better decoder
[17:13] <jonsowman> or bigger shift
[17:13] <jonsowman> etc etc
[17:13] <eroomde> Dan-K2VOL - re twitter, ac coupling!
[17:14] <fsphil_2I0VIM> both baud rates working sweet here
[17:14] <fsphil_2I0VIM> which I can't understand
[17:14] <jonsowman> how's your rtty demodulator going eroomde?
[17:14] <eroomde> just some octave functions
[17:14] <eroomde> quite unloved
[17:14] <jonsowman> :(
[17:15] <eroomde> i used the same algorithm to find something at work though
[17:15] <NigeyS> black magic phil
[17:15] <jonsowman> did it work well?
[17:15] <eroomde> which reminded me that it was cool and i should work on it
[17:15] <fsphil_2I0VIM> I suspect so nigelvh
[17:15] <fsphil_2I0VIM> er, NigeyS
[17:15] <eroomde> yeah it's great. any time you have a discrete change in dynamics in a noisy signal, it's your guy
[17:15] <jonsowman> what's the technique called?
[17:15] <nigelvh> Yep, I'm full of black magic
[17:15] <NigeyS> lol
[17:16] <eroomde> Bayesian Changepoint Blah
[17:16] <eroomde> where blah = some word depending on the paper
[17:16] <jonsowman> ta
[17:16] <eroomde> analysis
[17:16] <fsphil_2I0VIM> my favourite Blah!
[17:16] <eroomde> techniques
[17:16] <eroomde> whatever
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[17:16] <jonsowman> lol
[17:16] <fsphil_2I0VIM> if you ever get around to writing it in C, give me a shout :)
[17:17] <jonsowman> it is in a working proof-of-concept state eroomde?
[17:17] <jonsowman> *is it
[17:17] <eroomde> fsphil_2I0VIM: what's a good linear algwebra library for C?
[17:17] <eroomde> jonsowman: offline, sort of
[17:17] <eroomde> yes
[17:17] <jonsowman> right
[17:17] <jonsowman> that's cool
[17:17] <eroomde> the maths of online is different
[17:17] <fsphil_2I0VIM> wouldn't know I'm afraid
[17:18] <eroomde> but you could implement it offline for online, if you see what i mean, by discretely passing chunks of sampled soundcard data to it
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[17:18] <eroomde> but that would probably have some issues too
[17:18] <jonsowman> sounds like a potentially viable thing to do though
[17:19] <NigeyS> coffee brb!
[17:19] <Morseman> This distance thing is becoming anoying now apparently it's 563034.9 km away!
[17:19] <eroomde> yeah
[17:19] <jonsowman> perhaps getting it working online is a better next step though
[17:19] <eroomde> turning it into a nice desktop app is probably quite beyond me
[17:19] <Morseman> On a bearing of 357.9 degrees - I don't think so...
[17:19] <eroomde> but i would certainly like to get an online implementation
[17:19] <fsphil_2I0VIM> you should try the alpha version Morseman
[17:19] <jonsowman> fsphil_2I0VIM: if there was a working implementation in octave, would you be comfortable porting to C for fldigi?
[17:20] <fsphil_2I0VIM> I'm not familiar with octave, but I'd give it a good stab
[17:20] <jonsowman> i'd be up for helping with that
[17:20] <Morseman> I did fsphil_2I0VIM it didn';t seem to be working so I went back to the old one
[17:20] <jonsowman> you know, in all this free time i have. ¬.¬
[17:20] <eroomde> octave is really just linear algebra written down
[17:20] <fsphil_2I0VIM> you may have to explain the math to me though
[17:20] <jonsowman> i'm sure we could manage between us
[17:20] <fsphil_2I0VIM> was that the beta I pointed you to Morseman, or the new new one?
[17:21] <Morseman> I think it was version 3.21. something
[17:21] <fsphil_2I0VIM> the new new one being: https://github.com/downloads/danielrichman/dl-fldigi/dl-fldigi-3.21.38_setup.exe
[17:21] <fsphil_2I0VIM> hmm
[17:21] <jonsowman> ahh i was looking for a binarys for that
[17:22] <jonsowman> -s
[17:22] <fsphil_2I0VIM> actually working quite well here
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[17:22] <fsphil_2I0VIM> should be ready for release soon
[17:22] <jonsowman> :)
[17:22] <fsphil_2I0VIM> not sure it's been tested enough on win and mac though
[17:22] <jonsowman> the ALPHA one crashed a couple of times on Lion the other day
[17:23] <jonsowman> it was good enough to use though
[17:23] viewer34 (43bc7ef7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.188.126.247) joined #highaltitude.
[17:23] <fsphil_2I0VIM> my mac is too old to test with
[17:23] <jonsowman> unfortunately we were in the middle of a chase so didn't save the crash reports, and when I later came to leave it running waiting for it to crash, it of course did nothing wrong at all
[17:24] <fsphil_2I0VIM> seesm nice and warm up in the atmosphere today
[17:24] <Morseman> Ooo, that's better - Thanks :-)
[17:24] <fsphil_2I0VIM> let us know how it goes, or if it does anything odd Morseman
[17:25] <NigeyS> over the ocean it goes
[17:25] <fsphil_2I0VIM> predicted landing spot is getting closer to you NigeyS
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[17:25] <NigeyS> i know, waiting for it to be on the doorstep lol
[17:25] <jonsowman> haha
[17:25] <jonsowman> NigeyS: feel like beating the chase team to the landing site? :D
[17:25] <fsphil_2I0VIM> "A weather balloon landed in Cardiff Stadium today during a rugby match...."
[17:25] <NigeyS> on a pedal bike? lol i wish!
[17:26] <NigeyS> lmao phil
[17:26] HixPad (~hixpad@host86-163-54-93.range86-163.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[17:26] <NigeyS> shame its not clear id get the old telescope out and try to spot it
[17:26] <fsphil_2I0VIM> you're on the list of receivers now Morseman
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[17:27] <Morseman> :-)
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[17:27] <fsphil_2I0VIM> well sometimes -- I think the screen is updating too quickly to show them all
[17:27] <fsphil_2I0VIM> ah, being received in france
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[17:28] <Morseman> Seem to be getting more decodes on this version
[17:28] <Matt_soton> whats changed in the new version?
[17:28] <fsphil_2I0VIM> the rtty decoder had some changes but I don't think anything that would improve decoding
[17:29] <fsphil_2I0VIM> they've tweaked how the filters work I think
[17:29] <Matt_soton> oh ok
[17:29] <Matt_soton> myself and Randomskk were begiinning to draw out plans for a replacement
[17:29] <NigeyS> Matt_soton, if this lands in my garden you're not having it back :p
[17:29] <Morseman> At least the distance and bearing figures make sense now :-)
[17:29] <Matt_soton> we got to the argueing about language to use stage
[17:29] <Randomskk> tweaking filters could in theory make a big difference
[17:29] <Matt_soton> *what
[17:30] <Matt_soton> NigeyS: it wont be me youll have to argue with :P
[17:30] <jonsowman> if the recovery team can't find the payload and NigeyS is never seen on this channel again, we'll know what happened
[17:30] <Randomskk> the thing is a lot of the theory starts getting confusing when you take into account that dl-fldigi is working with AF data not passband
[17:30] <Randomskk> and that it's already been USB demodulated by the radio
[17:30] <NigeyS> *evil grin* :p
[17:30] <Randomskk> and also that the radi ois doing silly things
[17:30] <Randomskk> but otoh mostly it might just wrok
[17:30] <Randomskk> with a carrier freq of like 1khz
[17:30] <NigeyS> radio, balloon payload.. no idea what ya mean m8 :p
[17:30] <Randomskk> makes the computation a ton easier
[17:30] <Randomskk> I might play in octave with a correlated decoder
[17:31] <Randomskk> in theory it is optimal, if you don't listen to eroomde's bayesian stuff
[17:31] <Matt_soton> doesnt fligi just FFT bin select?
[17:31] <Randomskk> I don't actually know but I believe so
[17:31] <eroomde> in practice though
[17:31] <jonsowman> fligi :D
[17:31] <Randomskk> well it's a bit more than that
[17:31] <Randomskk> because it also applies filters
[17:31] <Randomskk> which can make a lot of the difference
[17:31] <Randomskk> okay so correlated decoders are optimal in AGWN
[17:31] <Randomskk> which we obviously don't have
[17:32] <Matt_soton> so apply a bandpass around each frequency first?
[17:32] <Randomskk> I was thinking of doing a few launches to help characterise the channel - transmit a prbs at a variety of baud rates and shifts
[17:32] <Matt_soton> to remove in band intefereres?
[17:32] <Randomskk> Matt_soton: well kind of, roughly
[17:32] <Randomskk> but there's other filtering you can do
[17:32] <Randomskk> to get rid of isi and stuff
[17:32] <Matt_soton> adaptive filtering stuff?
[17:32] <jonsowman> zero forcing equalisers \o/
[17:32] <Randomskk> shaped filtering stuff
[17:32] <fsphil_2I0VIM> is it bad that I don't understand what most of this is?
[17:33] <Randomskk> adaptive is cool but not what I'm talking about
[17:33] <Matt_soton> not needed surely due to the low bandwidth anywya?
[17:33] <Randomskk> isi will still mess you up
[17:33] <Matt_soton> isi can just be removed by adding more shift :P
[17:33] <Upu> and back
[17:33] <Randomskk> yea but you can keep the same shift and still remove it with shaped filters
[17:33] <Upu> 300 decoding nicely now
[17:33] <Matt_soton> interesing
[17:33] <fsphil_2I0VIM> none of the 50 baud launches will have an isi problem
[17:33] <Randomskk> adding more shift is a good idea though, people should do that more
[17:33] <jonsowman> and then up the shift anyway
[17:33] <fsphil_2I0VIM> re Upu
[17:33] <NigeyS> wb upu
[17:34] <Randomskk> fsphil_2I0VIM: well depending on their shift
[17:34] <navrac> need help decoding this chanel soon
[17:34] <Randomskk> but for all useful shifts, yea, agreed
[17:34] <fsphil_2I0VIM> I use 300 baud at 350hz shift, which will have that issue
[17:34] <Randomskk> the thing is if you want to get really high data rates, not just reduce errors on the current rate, there's a lot of scope for doing stuff
[17:34] <eroomde> yeah
[17:34] <Randomskk> fsphil_2I0VIM: 300 baud at 350hz shift should in theory be okay
[17:34] <eroomde> i'm thinking we should be cranking hab to 1.2kbps
[17:34] <Randomskk> depends on pulse shape but like
[17:34] <fsphil_2I0VIM> yea, 50 hz gap
[17:34] <eroomde> routinely
[17:34] <Randomskk> it's not bad
[17:34] <eroomde> a mix of cleverer decoding and good FEC
[17:34] <fsphil_2I0VIM> I can do 1200 baud with 350hz shift :)
[17:34] <Randomskk> eroomde: I want to see if we can get 1KB/s through an amateur radio's passband
[17:34] <fsphil_2I0VIM> but lots of errors
[17:35] <jonsowman> isn't MSK spaced at half the baud rate?
[17:35] <eroomde> Randomskk: oh easy!
[17:35] <Randomskk> well
[17:35] <eroomde> :)
[17:35] <Randomskk> also from a balloon
[17:35] <Randomskk> >_>
[17:35] <nigelvh> 1200 baud packet happens all the time
[17:35] <eroomde> you've got like 3khz
[17:35] <fsphil_2I0VIM> Randomskk, Tim did 1200 baud from a balloon
[17:35] <Randomskk> 1200 baud is not 1KB/s
[17:35] <jonsowman> nigelvh: on 10mW?
[17:35] <fsphil_2I0VIM> ah
[17:35] <fsphil_2I0VIM> misread you
[17:35] <Randomskk> note capital B
[17:35] <nigelvh> Yes, that's a bit different
[17:35] <fsphil_2I0VIM> 8000 baud
[17:36] <eroomde> i think you could yes
[17:36] <nigelvh> however, 9600 baud packet happens, though you have to pick up the signal before some stuff
[17:36] <Randomskk> depends on modulation too
[17:36] <Randomskk> brb
[17:36] <eroomde> we'd need to build our own radio
[17:36] <nigelvh> Many radios have a packet connector that wouldn't have the filtering on it
[17:36] <eroomde> yes - you would want some kind of IQ constellation
[17:36] <fsphil_2I0VIM> you should be able to do 9600 baud within 3khz but it's going to be realllly noisy
[17:36] <jonsowman> 64QAM or something
[17:36] <eroomde> something like that
[17:37] <jonsowman> need an IQ modem though
[17:37] <eroomde> yes indeed
[17:37] <eroomde> well, a dem
[17:37] <eroomde> which your soundcard could be
[17:37] <nigelvh> Just put a 30dbi wifi panel on there
[17:37] <nigelvh> 54Mbit
[17:37] <jonsowman> eroomde: what would you do balloon side?
[17:37] <Randomskk> back
[17:37] <nigelvh> I've done that in excess of 11 miles
[17:37] <Randomskk> QAM would be rubbish
[17:37] <Randomskk> for balloons
[17:37] <Randomskk> QPSK
[17:37] <eroomde> jonsowman: a custom radio
[17:38] <eroomde> Randomskk: QPSK is qam
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[17:38] <Randomskk> well
[17:38] <Randomskk> no
[17:38] <Matt_soton> make a HF radio first surely? much eaiser then UHF
[17:38] <Randomskk> subset thereof
[17:38] <eroomde> ok, qpsk is a subset of qam
[17:38] <Randomskk> qam does worse in lower snr
[17:38] <Randomskk> which is why like DAB uses qpsk while DVB is qam
[17:38] <jonsowman> it wouldn't be rubbish
[17:38] <Randomskk> well it wouldn't be rubbish
[17:39] <Randomskk> but I think qpsk would be the more noise resiliant choice
[17:39] <Randomskk> tbh experimentation clearly required
[17:39] <jonsowman> QPSK is better for fading channels
[17:39] <jonsowman> or freqeuncy selective
[17:39] <Randomskk> qpsk is more resiliant pretty much full stop
[17:39] <jonsowman> since there's no information encoded as amplitude
[17:39] <Randomskk> qam trades resiliance for more data per symbol
[17:39] <Matt_soton> surely jonsowman were not using enough bandwidth to care about fading?
[17:39] <Randomskk> fading's still an issue
[17:39] <Randomskk> just frequency selectivity isn't
[17:39] <jonsowman> Matt_soton: fast fading
[17:39] <Randomskk> or like
[17:40] <Randomskk> our whole channel fades
[17:40] <Matt_soton> yea im getting the wrong fading
[17:40] <Randomskk> anyway brb party, you coming for a bit jonsowman?
[17:40] <jonsowman> so QPSK is probably better in that sense
[17:40] <Matt_soton> mind you our channel is mich nicer then most
[17:40] <jonsowman> Randomskk: will pop over in a bit, i must continue packing for a while
[17:40] <Randomskk> okay
[17:40] <fsphil_2I0VIM> what about something like DRM does, many sub-channels
[17:40] <Randomskk> fsphil_2I0VIM: nice if we could do it
[17:40] <eroomde> let's try qpsk/4qam (identical, happily) and see what we can get
[17:40] <Randomskk> ofdm etc
[17:40] <jonsowman> fsphil_2I0VIM: OFDM
[17:40] <fsphil_2I0VIM> that's it
[17:40] <Randomskk> requires even cleverer radios
[17:41] <Matt_soton> the issue them is you split the power into different carriers
[17:41] <jonsowman> i'm unsure on the licensing for a start
[17:41] <Randomskk> by quite a long way
[17:41] <Randomskk> and yea, the licensing is dodgy
[17:41] <jonsowman> but if we assume that we are limited to 10mW total output from the radio
[17:41] <Randomskk> the ADF7021 can do 4FSK
[17:41] <Matt_soton> how far appart do the carriers hav eto be to be 'different radios'? :P
[17:41] <jonsowman> i mean the point is that you reduce the data rate on each carrier
[17:41] <Randomskk> which with large shifts covering 2kHz of audio plus not using RS232 but instead using actual source and channel coding
[17:41] <Matt_soton> also 4FSK isnt ODFM?
[17:41] <Randomskk> with error correction
[17:41] <Randomskk> I think we could get really decent data rates anyway
[17:41] <Randomskk> requires no special radios on either end
[17:42] <Randomskk> still goes through normal USB amateur kit
[17:42] <jonsowman> Matt_soton: well exactly
[17:42] <jonsowman> the licensing is the greyest of grey areas
[17:42] <Randomskk> nah it's not OFDM, I mean that I think just 4FSK could work quite well in itself
[17:42] <Randomskk> much easier to do too
[17:42] <jonsowman> it's a massive step up from 2FSK
[17:42] <Matt_soton> well as it is atm we're only using ~500/3000
[17:42] <eroomde> DominoEX woooo
[17:42] <Matt_soton> so might as well have your signal jump around a bit
[17:42] <fsphil_2I0VIM> the swift board was built with 4-fsk as a possibility
[17:43] <eroomde> hedgehog is MFSK capable
[17:43] <eroomde> delib
[17:43] <Randomskk> indeed
[17:43] <jonsowman> so is Joey :)
[17:43] <Randomskk> as is joey, it'l be interesting to test
[17:43] <Randomskk> as is wombat actually
[17:43] <Randomskk> but only in large shifts
[17:43] <Randomskk> bear in mind you will need to replace dl-fldigi, probably
[17:43] <Randomskk> its mfsk modes are... unique
[17:43] <eroomde> not for the amateur mfsk modes
[17:43] <jonsowman> eroomde: 2-GFSK is changing between two frequencies in a Gaussian way rather than in a binary way right?
[17:44] <eroomde> yes
[17:44] <jonsowman> we were trying to work this out the other day?
[17:44] <Randomskk> or, rather, it's the difference between 2FSK and RTTY and 4FSK and what dl-fldigi calls MFSK
[17:44] <Matt_soton> fldigis mfsk modes seem to increase bandwidth but then reduce the data rate so its the same as rtty
[17:44] <Randomskk> you'd need a custom decoder. but you probably want that anyway.
[17:44] <fsphil_2I0VIM> mfsk adds error correction
[17:44] <Randomskk> yea, fldigi sets the baud rate and shift when using their mfsk, and adds ecc
[17:44] <jonsowman> eroomde: is 2GFSK better than 2FSK in a HAB sense? and by 'better' I mean "more decodable at low SNR"
[17:44] <Matt_soton> hence fldigi replacement :)
[17:44] <jonsowman> because all these new flight computers could do GFSK easily
[17:44] <jonsowman> and that's a start
[17:44] <Randomskk> this conversation is more interesting than this party, sigh
[17:45] <Matt_soton> GFSK being FSK with a shaped waveforms?
[17:45] <eroomde> jonsowman: no
[17:45] <eroomde> i don't think so
[17:45] <Randomskk> it's not easier to decode
[17:45] <pjm__> hows about something like Space Data Link Protocol - CCSDS which is designed for telem, and has proper error correction
[17:45] <jonsowman> eroomde: why?
[17:45] <Randomskk> harder if anything
[17:45] <Randomskk> you increase ISI
[17:45] <eroomde> GFSK is just to narrow your bandwidth
[17:45] <Randomskk> however you decrease total bandwidth
[17:45] <jonsowman> mmm
[17:45] <eroomde> it's to play nicely with other users
[17:45] <Randomskk> so it spurts less onto other channels
[17:45] <Randomskk> yea what ed's saying basically :P
[17:45] <jonsowman> okay
[17:45] <Matt_soton> or spurts less into the other symbol
[17:45] <eroomde> but we are power limited, not bandwidth limited
[17:45] <jonsowman> Matt_soton: more if anything
[17:45] <jonsowman> hence ISI
[17:45] <Laurenceb> binoculars Nigey
[17:45] <eroomde> (in a practical sense)
[17:45] <Matt_soton> really jonsowman ?
[17:46] <Randomskk> Matt_soton: no, where instead of switching between two freqs you slide between them as a half guassian pulse
[17:46] <Matt_soton> oh
[17:46] <jonsowman> so ISI is therefore worse
[17:46] <Matt_soton> GFSK is something different then
[17:46] <Randomskk> but no sharp transitions
[17:46] <Randomskk> no that is GFSK
[17:46] <eroomde> so for a given power limit rather than bandwidth limit, FSK > PSK
[17:46] <jonsowman> what were you thinking of Matt_soton?
[17:46] <Matt_soton> to whats in my head
[17:46] <eroomde> if you do the BER sums
[17:46] <Randomskk> oh indeed
[17:46] <navrac> over land now
[17:46] <Randomskk> we don't transmit pulses in fsk
[17:46] <Randomskk> so no shaping
[17:46] <jonsowman> eroomde: right
[17:46] <Matt_soton> just a filter on the square wave
[17:46] <fsphil_2I0VIM> balloon is now in wales
[17:46] <fsphil_2I0VIM> abandon all hope
[17:46] <Matt_soton> surely you can shape a square wave?
[17:46] <jonsowman> NigeyS: get cycling
[17:46] <NigeyS> passport!!!!!!!
[17:46] <Randomskk> there isn't really a square wave
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[17:47] <eroomde> or a spoon
[17:47] <NigeyS> jonsowman, not yet, eating my pie! lol
[17:47] <Randomskk> or rather, if you shape the square wave going into your FM modulator
[17:47] <Laurenceb> passing over raf base
[17:47] <Randomskk> all it does is shift how you move between freqs
[17:47] <Matt_soton> Randomskk: thats what i ment
[17:47] <NigeyS> st athan
[17:47] <Randomskk> which is GFSK (with the right filter)
[17:47] <Randomskk> yea, which is what we are talking about, and increases ISI
[17:47] <Randomskk> it means your transmitter moves between the two freqs slower and so you get less distinction between the two tones
[17:47] <Matt_soton> i would have thought it would reduce it by reducing harmonics that sit on the other frequency
[17:48] <Randomskk> I don't think you usually get harmonics on the other freq but at any rate it doesn't :P
[17:48] <Matt_soton> either way, testing needs to be done
[17:48] <fsphil_2I0VIM> 33km, excellent altitude
[17:48] <Randomskk> you can do the maths for gfsk
[17:48] <Laurenceb> everyones getting 300 baud now?
[17:48] <Randomskk> but yes
[17:48] <Matt_soton> nm then
[17:48] <Randomskk> all things considered more testing everywhere needs doing
[17:48] <pjm__> yep still copying 300bd here
[17:48] <Randomskk> okay bbl actually
[17:48] <Matt_soton> its a 1500g balloon with 500g payload i think
[17:48] <NigeyS> think so Laurenceb, nice and stable here
[17:48] <jonsowman> Matt_soton: totex?
[17:48] <Matt_soton> yea
[17:48] <jonsowman> cool
[17:48] <NigeyS> if this floats i'll scream
[17:48] <Laurenceb> got to burst soon
[17:48] <fsphil_2I0VIM> burst should be imminent
[17:48] <jonsowman> NigeyS: you're the one cycling ;)
[17:49] <NigeyS> exactly lol
[17:49] <eroomde> what balloon is it?
[17:49] <jonsowman> see above
[17:49] <NigeyS> mid wales, ok, north wales, sod off :D :p
[17:49] <fsphil_2I0VIM> it's moving away from me again
[17:49] <r2x0t> best way for tlm downlink is GMSK with manchester encoded data, so it's decodeable with both coherren receiver as BPSK and still compatible with simple FM detector based receivers
[17:49] <MrCraig> evening all
[17:49] <fsphil_2I0VIM> howdy MrC
[17:49] <MrCraig> Heya fsPhil
[17:50] <eroomde> r2x0t: 'best'
[17:50] <NigeyS> oo its just over cardiff airport now
[17:50] <r2x0t> for coding, just stick tot he CCSDS coding standard used for stallites downlink, all documents are public and it's proven over many years
[17:50] <eroomde> what's your metric?
[17:50] <fsphil_2I0VIM> frequency dropped a bit
[17:50] <NigeyS> so it has
[17:50] <jonsowman> can we get a differential decoder into dl-fldigi?
[17:50] <NigeyS> hm
[17:50] <r2x0t> best as in compromise between SNR decodeability and possibility to use conventional radios
[17:51] <fsphil_2I0VIM> don't see why not jonsowman
[17:51] <r2x0t> if you don't need to make it compatible with FM radios and just use SDRs, then stick to coded BPSK
[17:51] <jonsowman> r2x0t: dl-fldigi can't do differential line coding at the moment
[17:51] <jonsowman> otherwise we'd have done that by now
[17:51] <r2x0t> so what? just make new decoding program or add that to it
[17:51] <eroomde> after you
[17:51] <MrCraig> When did apex down between coventry and birmingham? Was that today?
[17:51] <fsphil_2I0VIM> apex is a test
[17:51] <MrCraig> ahh ok
[17:51] <r2x0t> also viterbi coding at minimum should be used
[17:51] <jonsowman> r2x0t: i'm just saying, if we're trying to make it compatible with available software and people, then we'd need to have that sorted first
[17:52] <fsphil_2I0VIM> coming up on 34km
[17:52] <jonsowman> i don't disagree that differential decoding is better
[17:52] <Matt_soton> i thin new software is needed first, which will take a while
[17:52] <Matt_soton> until then MFSK it is
[17:52] <r2x0t> if you want to design something new, design it good from start
[17:52] <eroomde> viterbi 'coding'?
[17:52] <r2x0t> no compromises
[17:52] <eroomde> it's a message passing algorithm for decoding, i had always understood
[17:52] <r2x0t> make it new mode
[17:52] <fsphil_2I0VIM> yea eroomde
[17:52] <jonsowman> r2x0t: in theory that'd be lovely
[17:53] <jonsowman> given lots of time and people to work on things
[17:53] <r2x0t> only compatibility you need is with legacy receivers hw
[17:53] <r2x0t> ie. FM rx into soundcard
[17:53] <r2x0t> rest is just software
[17:53] <jonsowman> there have been recent discussions about an fldigi replacement
[17:53] <fsphil_2I0VIM> FM receivers are horrible with weak signals
[17:53] <MrCraig> freq for Astra1?
[17:53] <fsphil_2I0VIM> 434.077 MrCraig
[17:53] <MrCraig> tks
[17:53] <Matt_soton> well SSB recievers will be fine for BPSK/QPSK stuff?
[17:53] <fsphil_2I0VIM> 34km
[17:54] <r2x0t> Matt_soton: yes
[17:54] <SpeedEvil> FM signals are vulnerable to co-channel interference through their whole range.
[17:54] <fsphil_2I0VIM> burst!!!
[17:54] <r2x0t> BPSK is best choice
[17:54] <eroomde> best for what?
[17:54] <NigeyS> pop!
[17:54] <r2x0t> SNR
[17:54] <eroomde> please stop just using unqualified 'bests' everywhere
[17:54] <nigelvh> pop!
[17:54] <jonsowman> fsphil_2I0VIM: did you hear it on the radio?
[17:54] <eroomde> no it isn't
[17:54] <eroomde> that's just nonesense
[17:54] <fsphil_2I0VIM> jonsowman, yea
[17:54] <jonsowman> :)
[17:54] <r2x0t> I decode and design stuff like this for a living...
[17:55] <eroomde> proof by intimidation huh
[17:55] <fsphil_2I0VIM> NigeyS, it burst almost directly above you. suspicious!
[17:55] <NigeyS> didnt touch it :p
[17:55] <nigelvh> Doesn't mean you didn't laser it
[17:55] <jonsowman> r2x0t: you said manchester coded GMSK is best a few minutes ago :)
[17:55] <fsphil_2I0VIM> I was going to ask about that giant laser you had in the garden shed
[17:55] <NigeyS> haha would i :p
[17:55] <SpeedEvil> NigeyS: Do you have a dipole, and if so, how tall is it?
[17:56] <NigeyS> i dont, just a yagi, and a whip
[17:56] <jonsowman> admittedly any of these things are better than 50 baud RTTY in almost any metric apart from simplicity
[17:56] <r2x0t> jonsowman: manchester encoded GMSK = BPSK that is still receivable using simple FM receiver
[17:56] <LazyL_M0LEP> Good shot, NigeyS ;)
[17:56] <r2x0t> that way it's compatible
[17:56] <jonsowman> r2x0t: oh i see what you're getting at
[17:56] <SpeedEvil> 50 baud rtty with some FEC would be reasonable
[17:56] <SpeedEvil> Say 20 bytes after the checksum.
[17:57] <jonsowman> SpeedEvil: FEC would be a good idea in almost any of these schemes
[17:57] <SpeedEvil> that would be a useful improvement, and backwards compatible.
[17:57] <fsphil_2I0VIM> our normal strings are variable length. makes fec difficult
[17:57] <r2x0t> read this before designing anything by yourself: if you are
[17:57] <SpeedEvil> Indeed.
[17:57] <r2x0t> http://public.ccsds.org/publications/archive/131x0b2.pdf
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[17:57] <r2x0t> this is what NASA, ESA and everyone else uses for space links
[17:57] <jonsowman> it would be cool to have dl-fldigi be able to cope with some line codes
[17:57] <r2x0t> so don't reinvent the wheel...
[17:57] <jonsowman> then we could play around quite easily
[17:58] <fsphil_2I0VIM> signal faded very suddenly there for me
[17:58] <r2x0t> viterbi coding is very effective
[17:58] <Morseman> Signal deteriorated fast here
[17:58] <LazyL_M0LEP> here too.
[17:58] <fsphil_2I0VIM> yea saw that too Morseman
[17:58] <fsphil_2I0VIM> antenna failure?
[17:58] <jonsowman> interesting
[17:58] <LazyL_M0LEP> Suddenly way way down
[17:58] <jonsowman> wonder what happened
[17:58] <r2x0t> if you add Reed solomon block code to it, it's possible decode very weak signals
[17:58] <eroomde> r2x0t: what is viterbi coding please?
[17:59] <r2x0t> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convolutional_code
[17:59] <r2x0t> you take 1 bit, encode it to 2
[17:59] <Morseman> Something still there
[17:59] <daveake> died?
[17:59] <eroomde> oh right
[17:59] <daveake> very week
[17:59] <eroomde> i didn't know they were synonymous
[17:59] <r2x0t> then on output, you can use this double amount of data to correct errors
[17:59] <fsphil_2I0VIM> I can't hear it anymore, just a trace on the waterfall
[17:59] <SpeedEvil> There is little inherent reason that you can't interleave the 'real' signal - normal rtty - and then the FEC payload as seperate bytes
[17:59] <SpeedEvil> You lose some benefits from this, but not actually many
[17:59] <eroomde> i'd always known viterbi to be a message passing algorithm you can use for decoding
[18:00] <r2x0t> that ccsds document describes it all nicely
[18:00] <GW8RAK> Seemed stable on the descent, but is now unreadable
[18:00] <fsphil_2I0VIM> yea, far too weak even at 50 baud
[18:00] <r2x0t> anyway bbl... just wanted to steer you in a good direction guys...
[18:00] <eroomde> that document just seems to be an overview of a few well known FEC schemes
[18:01] <LazyL_M0LEP> Yeah, amplitude dropped suddenly from excellent to barely detectable.
[18:01] <eroomde> which is all well and good
[18:01] <NigeyS> wow its right above me and its barely audible
[18:01] <fsphil_2I0VIM> pointing the yagi upwards NigeyS?
[18:01] <NigeyS> just changing to it now
[18:01] <fsphil_2I0VIM> I can hear it again, but still too weak
[18:02] <fsphil_2I0VIM> signal strength seems to have improved a bit
[18:02] <NigeyS> seems to be coming inbursts
[18:02] <fsphil_2I0VIM> yea
[18:02] <NigeyS> spinning like a biatch i think
[18:02] <fsphil_2I0VIM> loose wire
[18:02] <fsphil_2I0VIM> lose
[18:02] <fsphil_2I0VIM> er
[18:02] <jonsowman> oh dear
[18:02] <fsphil_2I0VIM> and it's gone here, below my horizon
[18:03] <fsphil_2I0VIM> or broken totally :)
[18:03] <Upu> gone here
[18:03] <nigelvh> It's below my horizon too guys.
[18:03] <fsphil_2I0VIM> gonzo_ still decoding
[18:03] <fsphil_2I0VIM> lol nigelvh
[18:03] <nigelvh> YAY I'M POPULAR!
[18:04] <Upu> are you sure you're american ?
[18:04] Action: fsphil_2I0VIM bakes nigelvh a cake
[18:04] <nigelvh> I was born here if that counts.... Also, I hope it's a cheesecake. :P
[18:05] <fsphil_2I0VIM> chocolate fudge
[18:05] <nigelvh> That works too
[18:05] <fsphil_2I0VIM> okie, better feed the weremutt
[18:05] <fsphil_2I0VIM> brb
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[18:07] <LazyL_M0LEP> drifted down to 424.075.5 but only just visible on waterfall
[18:07] <GW8RAK> Partial decode at 50bd, but now very weak
[18:08] <NigeyS> same here very very bad :/
[18:09] <griffonbot> Received email: James Coxon "Re: [UKHAS] UKSEDS Conference Canterbury | NTX2 | picoHAB"
[18:09] <Matt_soton> well its at -24
[18:09] <Matt_soton> 13km
[18:09] <jcoxon> oooo i forgot about that launch
[18:09] <daveake> I've hatched my next payload
[18:09] <daveake> http://imgur.com/lE6Ik
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[18:10] <x-f> daveake, pretty! :)
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[18:11] <daveake> pretty in pink :p
[18:11] <Matt_soton> its lost GPS lock
[18:11] <NigeyS> eek
[18:11] <nigelvh> Nice daveake
[18:11] <Upu> amazing
[18:11] <daveake> 42g
[18:11] <NigeyS> as close as it is, i cant get another line, its to weak :(
[18:12] <daveake> Pink paint, aerial wire, straws and cord .... there's a theme there :)
[18:12] <nigelvh> Though, seems to be lacking duct tape.
[18:12] <LazyL_M0LEP> Temperature was dropping rapidly just before it faded
[18:12] <NigeyS> yups
[18:13] <daveake> lol Sorry, no tape
[18:13] <craag> Case opened on the payload?
[18:13] <Matt_soton> perhaps
[18:14] <NigeyS> UU]$$ASTRA1,28666,1y>04:43,5129.5278,-00305.4977,135[[.3,426*7EB0
[18:14] <nigelvh> Aliens.
[18:14] <NigeyS> last line i got, rest are completely garbled
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[18:14] <LazyL_M0LEP> Ah, well.
[18:14] <Matt_soton> it lost lock at 13km
[18:15] <nigelvh> Payload labeled?
[18:15] <jonsowman> oh dear
[18:15] <Matt_soton> yea
[18:15] <Matt_soton> im wondering if the cmaera was secured
[18:15] <Matt_soton> that could have fallen out if the case came off
[18:15] <MrCraig> just totally burned my pizza trying to tune in lol
[18:15] <Matt_soton> which it might have done due to the rapid cooling
[18:15] <Matt_soton> sorry MrCraig
[18:15] <Matt_soton> :P
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[18:17] <NigeyS> that came stupidly close to my house, and it breaks.. hrmm
[18:18] <MrCraig> lol no apollogies needed Matt_soton - perfect excuse for take out.
[18:19] <navrac> just a little suspicious NigeyS - when is your next launch?
[18:19] <Matt_soton> heh
[18:19] <NigeyS> haha i didnt touch it! .. not sure now, think the weathers gonna scrub the pico for this week at the least
[18:20] <Matt_soton> right food time
[18:20] <navrac> if it does mixed 300 and 50 baud 0n .075 it would look a bit odd
[18:20] <NigeyS> lol
[18:21] <navrac> best leave it for a week for the dust to settle
[18:21] <NigeyS> shhh dont tell everyone!
[18:21] <daveake> More to do than just hack the payload ID then :)
[18:21] <jonsowman> lol
[18:22] <NigeyS> £20,000 you can have it back! :p
[18:23] <nigelvh> BTW guys, have any of you measured the pwoer consumption of the ublox gps recievers?
[18:23] <nigelvh> power*
[18:23] <NigeyS> i did last night
[18:23] <nigelvh> How convenient.
[18:23] <NigeyS> 61.1ma
[18:24] <nigelvh> Ok,
[18:24] <nigelvh> I was hoping for better
[18:24] <NigeyS> drops by about 20ma after it gets a lock mind
[18:24] <nigelvh> The modules I have now runs about 40-45.
[18:24] <NigeyS> well they do have eco, and power save modes, mine wasnt using either
[18:24] <nigelvh> Yeah, this is standard mode on this one
[18:25] <nigelvh> (not that I have a datasheet that would tell me commands....)
[18:25] <griffonbot> Received email: Steve Randall "[UKHAS] Re: NOTAMS"
[18:25] <nigelvh> Well, good to know
[18:25] <nigelvh> At least it's not blowing my modules out of the water
[18:26] <NigeyS> true
[18:26] <nigelvh> Mostly curious because I was setting up an automatic APRS station to run for as long as possible off a small lead acid.
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[18:27] <nigelvh> Considering some inefficiencies on the board (high clock speed, 3 linear regulators, no external wake interrupt for deep sleep modes) I think I'm doing pretty well
[18:27] <eroomde> I wish Steve would de-construct things in a smaller font
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[18:28] <nigelvh> Got a handheld in squelched recieve, and the gps, microcontroller, and two temp sensors, a baro sensor, and humidity sensor under 100mA
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[18:28] <nigelvh> When it transmits it will obviously draw more.
[18:28] <benoxley> hello
[18:28] <jonsowman> hello benoxley
[18:28] <number10> its good for old blokes eroomde, just stand back from the screen a little and it will be fine
[18:29] <benoxley> how is astra going ?can anybody hear it still? (i know no decodes)
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[18:29] <craag> nigelvh: Can't you just turn most things off 95% of the time? (except main microcontroller and gps)
[18:30] <nigelvh> Yes, if I had designed the board that way
[18:30] <NigeyS> benoxley, its totally dead here
[18:30] <nigelvh> But I didn't, so they're on.
[18:30] <craag> kk
[18:30] <nigelvh> In reality though, all the sensors don't draw more than about 5mA
[18:31] <craag> How much does the squelched handheld draw?
[18:31] <nigelvh> Biggest gains would come from being able to turn off GPS (it locks quickly), switching regulators instead of linear, and reducing the clock speed of the micro, and having an external RC timer to wake the micro from deep sleep.
[18:31] <benoxley> NigeyS: and you couldn't be more directly next to it :/
[18:31] <nigelvh> The HT draws about 10mA in squelched recieve.
[18:31] <NigeyS> i know :( that sucks
[18:32] <benoxley> have to go have a look around the landing site :P
[18:32] <jonsowman> are people searching for it benoxley?
[18:32] <griffonbot> Received email: Steve Randall "Re: [UKHAS] Re: NOTAMS"
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[18:33] <NigeyS> its mainly all fields up that way, they should spot it in they can get a rough area of where it came down
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[18:33] <nigelvh_> Sorry, if anyone asked me something in the last minute, I probably missed it. Stupid web client.
[18:33] mikewintermute (~mikewinte@188-223-213-21.zone14.bethere.co.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[18:34] <jonsowman> nigelvh_: irssi :)
[18:34] <NigeyS> xchat!
[18:34] <eroomde> irssi
[18:34] <NigeyS> bitchx!
[18:34] <benoxley> jonsowman: yep, hopefully so
[18:34] <benoxley> people with a radio :)
[18:34] <nigelvh_> It's not an issue of getting a client, it's an issue of corporate filewalls
[18:34] <benoxley> no yagi though :(
[18:34] <NigeyS> they might pick up the carrier
[18:34] <eroomde> nigelvh_: irssi on remote machine
[18:34] <nigelvh_> Firewall blocks SSH
[18:35] <jonsowman> benoxley: cooll
[18:35] <nigelvh_> Pretty much anything but FTP and HTTP is out.
[18:35] <eroomde> blocks SSH specifically or port 22?
[18:35] <nigelvh_> Both
[18:35] <nigelvh_> Yay packet inspection
[18:35] <jonsowman> tried running an ssh server on port 21?
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[18:35] <jonsowman> oh i see
[18:35] <jonsowman> :(
[18:35] <nigelvh_> Yep, and 80
[18:36] <NigeyS> that sux :(
[18:36] nigelvh (45a4a77e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.69.164.167.126) left irc: Ping timeout: 245 seconds
[18:36] <nigelvh_> Though, I do plan on trying to tunnel SSH over an HTTPS proxy which should work
[18:37] <nigelvh_> Really most of the time it's not a big deal. Web works fine, and if I really need to get access to stuff, I'll tether my phone and use wireless.
[18:37] <nigelvh_> I just don't wanna leave it on all day.
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[18:38] <jcoxon> ping OZ1SKY_Brian
[18:38] Dutch-Mill (3e2d8519@gateway/web/freenode/ip.62.45.133.25) joined #highaltitude.
[18:38] <nigelvh_> Also, it's lunch time. Be back in a bit.
[18:39] <OZ1SKY_Brian> jcoxon pong
[18:39] <jcoxon> hey
[18:39] <jcoxon> just to say i'm not launching a floater tomorrow
[18:39] <jcoxon> sorry
[18:39] <griffonbot> Received email: "Re: [UKHAS] Re: NOTAMS"
[18:40] <OZ1SKY_Brian> jcoxon ok not a big problem for me, since im not home most of the day :-)
[18:40] <jcoxon> of course
[18:40] <griffonbot> Received email: Chris Hembrow "Re: [UKHAS] Re: NOTAMS"
[18:40] <jcoxon> OZ1SKY_Brian, one day though
[18:40] <OZ1SKY_Brian> jcoxon yes then i hope im home
[18:41] <jcoxon> cool
[18:41] <jcoxon> bbl
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[18:53] <griffonbot> Received email: John Graham-Cumming "Re: [UKHAS] Re: NOTAMS"
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[19:00] <griffonbot> Received email: Steve Randall "Re: [UKHAS] Re: NOTAMS"
[19:01] <griffonbot> Received email: "Re: [UKHAS] Re: NOTAMS"
[19:02] <griffonbot> Received email: David Akerman "Re: [UKHAS] Re: NOTAMS"
[19:02] <griffonbot> Received email: Anthony Stirk "Re: [UKHAS] Re: NOTAMS"
[19:02] <Upu> someone told me it was a low volume mailing list .... :)
[19:07] <jonsowman> it was..
[19:10] <griffonbot> Received email: Alistair Currah "[UKHAS] NOTAMS application"
[19:14] <griffonbot> Received email: Chris Hembrow "Re: [UKHAS] Re: NOTAMS"
[19:15] <daveake> Reading skills ain't wot they used to be
[19:15] <griffonbot> Received email: David Akerman "Re: [UKHAS] NOTAMS application"
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[19:18] <griffonbot> Received email: Steve Randall "[UKHAS] NOTAMS application"
[19:19] <daveake> Steve should have gone back to his default font for that one :D
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[19:21] <griffonbot> Received email: Alistair Currah "[UKHAS] Re: NOTAMS application"
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[19:33] <number10> seems to have gone email crazy in the last few days
[19:33] <Adam_> How was Astra's flight today?
[19:33] <fsphil> lots of new subscribers
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[19:34] <fsphil> "mixed" would be the word for astra
[19:34] <Adam_> Oh? Radio fail?
[19:34] <fsphil> possible antenna failure on descent
[19:34] <fsphil> the signal dropped out fairly suddenly
[19:35] <Adam_> Could they retrieve it or does it look lost?
[19:35] <fsphil> no word from them
[19:35] <fsphil> they may have had a backup
[19:35] <Adam_> I saw descent rated at -29m/s on the last reading. Is that faster than most?
[19:35] <fsphil> that's not bad
[19:35] <SpeedEvil> Adam_: No
[19:35] <SpeedEvil> Adam_: It hits 50m/s often if it's up high
[19:35] <fsphil> at that altitude they're normally falling faster
[19:36] <Adam_> So may be a snagged line?
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[19:44] <daveake> Latest payload build - http://www.daveakerman.com/?p=352
[19:45] <Adam_> Could anyone offer a little advice about radios? We're looking for a radio for our HAB project. Budget is small and this is our first launch. We are very keen for there to be more launches in the future but for now we are looking at just the one. Which would you get out of AOR AR8000, Yupiteru MVT7100 and Yaesu FT790R? We want to use it in the chase car, so it needs to be mobile (although Im planning to get an inverter for the
[19:45] <jonsowman> FT-790R :)
[19:46] <SpeedEvil> Indeed - that seems to be the defacto standard
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[19:46] <fsphil> sensitive, and well built
[19:46] <daveake> Well, for the chase car, I'd say the AOR. Handier to carry than the Yaesu, and better built than the Yupiteru. However if your priority is the most sensitivity and best decoding, Yaesu all the way.
[19:48] <fsphil> and if you've lots of money, the icom ic-7000
[19:48] <number10> nice payload there daveake, will be interesting to see how the gps antenna performs
[19:48] <fsphil> hehe, I was expecting that to end with "... be a shame if something where to happen to it"
[19:48] <Upu> it worked fine last week that floater that went to northern france used one
[19:49] <daveake> Indeed, and that used power saving (I'm not)
[19:49] <number10> was that so Upu, did not know that - so looking pretty good then
[19:49] <fsphil> that's got so many layers you should call it ONION
[19:49] <daveake> Right now it's running in my office, with a large object (me) between it and the window, which is mostly obscurred by monitors, and it has a lock
[19:50] <Upu> yeah I was quite chuffed :)
[19:50] <number10> great stuff Upu
[19:50] <Upu> Just tested two for Hix and they got lock indoors
[19:50] <fsphil> uputonics
[19:50] <Upu> they are just a little slower and a little less sensitive
[19:50] <Upu> but they get there eventually
[19:50] <jonsowman> that is really neat daveake
[19:50] <daveake> I don't think a Lassen has ever had a lock indoors here, but those are fine in the open (which is where a balloon is of course)
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[19:51] <daveake> TVM :)
[19:51] <fsphil> is that going into the pink eggs?
[19:51] <daveake> Hope you guys put up with the inevitable drift from such minimal insulation :p
[19:51] <Upu> yeah looks great I do hope we can launch big pink and little pink :)
[19:51] <daveake> lol
[19:51] <daveake> ooer missus
[19:51] <Upu> big pinks gone on a diet
[19:51] <Upu> saved 30g now :)
[19:52] <Upu> or 1 pico payload
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[19:52] <daveake> lol
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[19:52] <fsphil> three batteries, should last a bit longer
[19:52] <fsphil> is that a pressure sensor on the front?
[19:52] <daveake> Yep. 30.5g for the tracker+3 AAAs
[19:52] <daveake> Yes, BMP085
[19:52] <fsphil> mighty
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[19:53] <daveake> Not that much use for a Latex flight, but I put this together for pico originally
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[19:53] <fsphil> so this is going fairly high up?
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[19:53] <Upu> it'll clear 1km for sure
[19:53] <daveake> Arduino Mini Pro, BMP085, DS18B20, RFM22B, Upu-Special GPS. Just over 7g the lot
[19:53] <fsphil> hehe
[19:54] <fsphil> looking forward to this now
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[19:56] <Adam_> Why would it not work with latex?
[19:57] <Upu> I think they top out below the max altitude of a latex
[19:57] <daveake> Yeah, any data will be noise
[19:58] <fsphil> about 20km isn't it?
[19:58] <daveake> I have an SCP1000 on another tracker, and that's a lot better, but even that would need filtering to get good data from it
[19:58] <daveake> Can't remember, but I'm expecting a bit more than 20km ....
[19:58] <fsphil> just a bit
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[20:03] <nigelvh_> Yeah, the high altitude barometry gets more interesting
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[20:04] <Adam_> Are you referring to the range of the RFM22B?
[20:04] <fsphil> the pressure sensors
[20:06] <Adam_> So the BMP085 is no good above 20km? That's a blow, we were planning to use one in our environmental monitoring system on our first flight. Is there an alternative known to work above 20km?
[20:06] <jonsowman> they get pretty expensive if you want ones that go below 100mb
[20:07] <Upu> I can do it for free : its very low
[20:07] <nigelvh_> Yeah.
[20:07] Nick change: G0DJA_ -> G0DJA
[20:07] <nigelvh_> I use the ASDX015 from honeywell
[20:07] <nigelvh_> Expensive, but vacuum referenced and linear output.
[20:07] <jonsowman> yeah Honeywell are the people to go for
[20:08] <jonsowman> those look nice nigelvh_
[20:08] <nigelvh_> Yeah, We've been using them for a few years on our systems
[20:08] <G0DJA> Did they retrieve ASTRA1?
[20:09] <nigelvh_> No external amps, no weird calibrations, Just a linear voltage output
[20:09] <fsphil> unknown G0DJA
[20:09] <Upu> off topic but : http://nkwiatek.com/
[20:09] <G0DJA> OK fsphil - prediction said landing on dry land anyway
[20:09] <fsphil> yea, it's definitely sitting somewhere in wales
[20:10] <fsphil> hopefully they had an sms backup
[20:10] <nigelvh_> That's pretty damn neat Upu
[20:10] <jonsowman> thanks Upu, that'll keep my entertained for a bit
[20:11] <Upu> have another one : http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=iHJkyMo9MtU
[20:11] <jonsowman> *me
[20:11] <MrCraig> %^$&! some old lady just reversed into my jag :-(
[20:12] <x-f> Adam_, i observed that on a recent XABEN's flight BMP085 reported pressure data pretty much in accordance to the standard atmosphere model for up to 27 km altitude (later it got really cold and close to -40C it reported 4kPa @ 31km tho)
[20:13] <jonsowman> Adam_: http://www.hexoc.com/pages/apex/apex-ii/launch-2-data.php
[20:13] <jonsowman> second graph
[20:13] <jonsowman> typical response from a MEMS type Freescale one
[20:16] <Adam_> So there is a floor at ~100mb? Maybe we'll send it up and just disregard the data read after it hits the floor. I've bookmarked the Honeywell ASDX015D44D for a future flight.
[20:19] <fsphil> what a video
[20:19] <Upu> impressive
[20:19] <nigelvh_> Yeah, that was crazy
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[20:25] <Adam_> Thank you to everyone for all of the advice! I've got a little shopping to do this weekend (Farnell, Rapid and Proto-pic are going to get a little boost in sales).
[20:25] <Adam_> good luck to Xaben for tomorrow's launch!
[20:26] <jonsowman> /t
[20:26] <jonsowman> oops
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[20:31] <jonsowman> did james say XABEN isn't happening tomorrow?
[20:31] <jonsowman> or is steve launching something? I've got a bit lost with what's going on
[20:31] <Upu> its on tomorrow
[20:32] <Upu> single launch
[20:32] <jonsowman> got it
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[20:32] #highaltitude: mode change '+o jonsowman' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
[20:33] Topic changed on #highaltitude by jonsowman!jonsowman@kryten.hexoc.com: Welcome to #highaltitude - discuss anything to do with high altitude projects (balloons, gliders, etc) www.ukhas.org.uk - XABEN Launch, morning of 17/03/12
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[20:33] <jonsowman> will update that if steve gives a definite time or location
[20:33] #highaltitude: mode change '-o jonsowman' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
[20:33] <fsphil> should be interesting
[20:34] <fsphil> I don't ever remember it being this busy before
[20:34] <jonsowman> the channel you mean?
[20:34] <fsphil> launches
[20:34] <jonsowman> ah :)
[20:34] <jonsowman> yes there have been a lot recently
[20:34] <jonsowman> another CUSF one soon...
[20:34] <Upu> showing no signs of abating either
[20:35] <griffonbot> Received email: Alistair Currah "Re: [UKHAS] NOTAMS application"
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[20:40] <number10> when is the CUSF one jonsowman ?
[20:41] <jonsowman> number10: i'm soldering up the boards tomorrow hopefully, then i need to write firmware etc
[20:41] daveake (~daveake@daveake.plus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[20:41] <jonsowman> so maybe a couple of weeks number10 :)
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[20:41] <jonsowman> there may be one before that depending on how Wombat's radio behaves
[20:41] <number10> mid week or weekend?
[20:42] <Laurenceb_> recovered?
[20:42] <number10> depending on how quick you write code I suppose
[20:42] <jonsowman> could be either to be honest, depends when we're ready and what the weather's like
[20:46] <jonsowman> also yes, race to get flight-ready firmware
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[20:49] <griffonbot> Received email: David Akerman "Re: [UKHAS] NOTAMS application"
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[20:53] <griffonbot> Received email: Alistair Currah "Re: [UKHAS] NOTAMS application"
[20:53] <jonsowman> oh good lord
[20:53] <Laurenceb_> epic dramaz
[20:54] <jonsowman> haha
[20:54] <jonsowman> as epic as it gets I think
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[21:01] <Dan-K2VOL> ugh these pololu 5v/3v switching regulators will NOT start with a 2F capacitor on their output side
[21:01] <daveake> I blame the solar flares
[21:02] <griffonbot> Received email: David Akerman "Re: [UKHAS] NOTAMS application"
[21:02] <fsphil> it's a full moon. somewhere
[21:02] <daveake> I'm going to retire with this rather nice Belgian beer
[21:02] <daveake> :)
[21:02] <daveake> There's got to be some reason for the sudden outbreak of stupidity
[21:02] <jonsowman> haha
[21:03] <jonsowman> this guy launched without a NOTAM and is now complaining about the application procedure
[21:03] <daveake> And I'm about as laid back as it's possible to get :)
[21:03] <daveake> Yep. Unbelievable
[21:04] <jonsowman> I'm going to stick him on list moderation for now
[21:04] <daveake> :)
[21:04] <jonsowman> otherwise this is going to go on forever
[21:04] <daveake> true
[21:05] <nigelvh_> Excuse my not being from there, but what does NOTAM stand for?
[21:05] <jonsowman> Notice To Airmen
[21:05] <daveake> Even if I ignore him whilst supping this beer (which is getting nicer by the sip) someone will reply
[21:05] <jonsowman> a slightly dubious acronym, but there you go
[21:05] <nigelvh_> Sounds reasonable
[21:05] <daveake> I thought it was NOT Applicable to Me
[21:05] <jonsowman> hahah
[21:06] <jonsowman> very good
[21:06] <nigelvh_> So no matter how small the balloon/payload is you have to do one of those?
[21:06] <daveake> If > 2m in any direction you need one (I think that's it)
[21:06] <daveake> And that's at any point in the flight
[21:06] <jonsowman> or will be at any point during the flight
[21:06] <nigelvh_> Ah, so really it's the balloon that gets you.
[21:06] <daveake> So latex flights are out
[21:07] <Dan-K2VOL> you know, i just have to say, has anyone thought of trying to get the law changed?
[21:07] <daveake> So it's either a small solar balloon or a foil balloon
[21:07] <Dan-K2VOL> I guess I don't have to :-P, but I am curious
[21:07] <nigelvh_> Yeah, round here it's as long as it's under 10 pounds and the payload isn't huge.
[21:07] <jonsowman> Dan-K2VOL: which bit of it?
[21:08] <daveake> The UK is a bit denser
[21:08] <nigelvh_> Yes
[21:08] <nigelvh_> We have a bit more open space
[21:08] <Dan-K2VOL> all the deviation from ICAO regs really
[21:08] <daveake> (in more ways than one I'm beginning to think)
[21:09] <nigelvh_> It happens to the best of us...
[21:10] <jonsowman> Dan-K2VOL: there have been lots of attemps to have the "no amateur radio" one changed
[21:10] <nigelvh_> Even canada is getting some pretty ludicrous legislation these days
[21:10] <nigelvh_> Also, the amateur radio stuff is really handy
[21:11] <nigelvh_> Not to rub it in, but I would be pushing for that one.
[21:11] <jonsowman> nigelvh_: if UKHAS were formalised there would be the potential for it
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[21:11] <jonsowman> but the paperwork and time required are perhaps beyond any individual
[21:11] <jonsowman> perhaps not
[21:11] <jonsowman> i'm only going by the failure of past attempts
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[21:12] <nigelvh_> Well would that be just an exception for your flights, or for airspace in general?
[21:12] <nigelvh_> Also, do they have any good reason why it shouldn't be allowed?
[21:12] <jonsowman> nigelvh_: good point, previous attempts (at least that I know of) have been for the latter
[21:13] <jonsowman> afaik nobody has tried for a one-off exemption for a single flight
[21:13] <jonsowman> but that may well be worth a try
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[21:13] <nigelvh_> Well, I think it should be for airspace in general, but perhaps doing a single exemption, and showing there were no issues would be a good start to widening it.
[21:13] <jonsowman> true
[21:13] Nick change: nigelvh_ -> nigelvh
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[21:14] <Udin_SHARP> I have a quick question
[21:14] <jonsowman> Udin_SHARP: go ahead
[21:14] <Udin_SHARP> has anyone contemplated using http://www.avantiplc.com/
[21:15] <Udin_SHARP> to get around the bandwidth issue
[21:16] <nigelvh> Well, besides power and weight, I don't see why it wouldn't work.
[21:16] <jonsowman> agreed
[21:16] <jonsowman> feels a bit like cheating though
[21:17] <nigelvh> Also, as a side note, the arduino ethernet shields are a piece of crap.
[21:17] <jonsowman> oh why?
[21:17] <Udin_SHARP> yep I guess it will take away some of the thrill and would probably turn out quite expensive
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[21:18] <jonsowman> Udin_SHARP: the power and weight may well be totally prohibitive
[21:18] <nigelvh> I've got one, and it freaks out and just freezes without reporting any errors about once a day or two. I finally got around to adding a wire and the arduino will reset the module if it doesn't get a response. Also, they run really hot.
[21:18] <jonsowman> is this the ENC28J60 based one?
[21:19] <nigelvh> Whatever the stock one is. This one: http://www.sparkfun.com/products/9026
[21:19] <jonsowman> ah, wiznet
[21:19] <jonsowman> i've not used one
[21:19] <nigelvh> There are aftermarket ethernet shields that may do better, but the official "Arduino" shield I haven't been terribly pleased with.
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[21:23] Nick change: GW8RAK__ -> GW8RAK
[21:23] <SpeedEvil> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJoGTf6KL8s&feature=g-vrec&context=G22ff137RVAAAAAAAAAA workbench porn
[21:23] <griffonbot> Received email: Nick Leaton "Re: [UKHAS] NOTAMS application"
[21:23] <jonsowman> what? ^
[21:24] <fsphil> um
[21:26] <griffonbot> Received email: Martin Evans "[UKHAS] Are NOTAMS the ideal long term approach?"
[21:26] <Upu> omg
[21:26] <Upu> make it stop
[21:27] <jonsowman> what was that email about the pig?
[21:27] <Laurenceb_> flying pig?
[21:27] <Laurenceb_> where?
[21:28] <daveake> Battersea
[21:28] <SpeedEvil> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1oSo03pl1g&feature=related - pig power unit?
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[21:28] <Upu> another launch on Sunday ?
[21:28] <Upu> crikey
[21:29] <Laurenceb_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IghxyxeeVAk&feature=related
[21:29] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: yeah. Actual thrust would be good.
[21:30] <SpeedEvil> I've seen that before. I wonder what the smallest scale is.
[21:30] <Laurenceb_> the flameholder isnt working
[21:30] <SpeedEvil> Also - _way_ too slow.
[21:30] <SpeedEvil> I'd guess it'd need to exceed 100krpm
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[21:42] <NigelMoby> hey Steve :)
[21:42] <RocketBoy> yo yo
[21:42] <NigelMoby> still sane? lol
[21:42] <RocketBoy> only just
[21:42] <RocketBoy> calming down now
[21:43] <jonsowman> haha
[21:43] <NigelMoby> Lmao oh dear
[21:43] <RocketBoy> deap breaths
[21:43] <RocketBoy> deep
[21:43] <NigelMoby> woosah...
[21:44] <RocketBoy> did the astra guys get their payload back ok?
[21:44] <jonsowman> not heard anything yet
[21:44] <NigelMoby> not heard
[21:45] <NigelMoby> hope it didn't land on any sheepies!
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[21:46] <NigelMoby> and the fact we lost signal when it was directly above my house is purely coincidental!
[21:47] <RocketBoy> oh - what just stopped?
[21:47] <jonsowman> just after burst :\
[21:47] <MrCraig> Quesiton - if I have an NTSC signal from a camera to play with, and I wanted to x-mit it to ground (6Mhz bandwidth but x-mitted on/around 434Mhz) is that feasable/legal? And second to that, if it is doable, can anyone recommend transmitter hardware?
[21:47] <NigelMoby> it sounded like it was being battered around
[21:48] <fsphil> from the speed the signal disappeared either the antenna broke off or got twisted pretty bad
[21:48] <MrCraig> (just to be clear, asking about analogue transmission, not ADC->Digital xmit)
[21:48] <nigelvh> Are you in the US?
[21:48] <RocketBoy> in the uk?
[21:48] <MrCraig> UK yes
[21:49] <NigelMoby> wasn't me with a laser or a sniper rifle as had been suggested lol
[21:49] <RocketBoy> then no way to do it on 434
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[21:49] <RocketBoy> not leagally
[21:49] <fsphil> not unless you can squeeze it into 15khz
[21:49] <RocketBoy> analoge
[21:49] <MrCraig> damn regs again :-(
[21:49] <NigelMoby> ofcom ftw.....
[21:49] <nigelvh> Yeah, 6MHz is a little more than 15KHz
[21:49] <RocketBoy> 2.4GHz licence exempt TV is ok
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[21:50] <RocketBoy> if your talking fast scan
[21:50] <fsphil> narrow band telly is something I've been looking at... very low resolution and about 10 fps
[21:50] <MrCraig> what's the law that's preventing it? Is it only the wide bandwidth coverage?
[21:50] <RocketBoy> but only 10mW me thinks - a bit of a chanllenge
[21:50] <Upu> heh evening Steve :)
[21:51] <GW8RAK> 13cm.co.uk have 9dBm modules
[21:51] <Upu> need a drink ? :)
[21:51] <RocketBoy> hang on well you might be able to get a ham radio NOV
[21:51] <fsphil> a 6mhz signal on 434 would put out noise all over the amateur band
[21:51] <RocketBoy> to do TV on 434
[21:51] <jonsowman> we were talking about that earlier RocketBoy, has anyone done that?
[21:51] <fsphil> would there be enough bandwidth?
[21:51] <RocketBoy> not that i know of
[21:51] <jonsowman> hmm
[21:52] <r2x0t> if you want to do low rate video, use jpegs over 64kbit downlink or something
[21:52] <RocketBoy> (NOCV)
[21:52] <nigelvh> TV on 434? Yeah. But we do it here in the US.
[21:52] <RocketBoy> NOV
[21:52] <MrCraig> what's NOV?
[21:52] <r2x0t> that would give you one frame every few seconds or so
[21:52] <jonsowman> notice of variation
[21:52] <RocketBoy> Notice of variation
[21:52] <Upu> something full license holders (over a year) can apply for
[21:52] <Upu> any idea on the time tomorrow Steve ?
[21:52] <RocketBoy> its a way of going outside your ham radio lience
[21:53] <jonsowman> RocketBoy: that might be worth a try
[21:53] <MrCraig> interesting.
[21:53] <jonsowman> maybe I'll try it one day
[21:53] <fsphil> that baud rate would be very difficult with only 10mw power r2x0t
[21:53] <RocketBoy> tomorrow - about 10:00 +/- rain showers
[21:53] <r2x0t> you will need long yagi to rx it
[21:53] <fsphil> yea
[21:53] <fsphil> and careful aiming
[21:53] <r2x0t> but doable
[21:53] <fsphil> my highest 'frame rate' is 0.1fpm :)
[21:54] <Upu> cheers
[21:54] <Upu> I've put 10:30 on the trakcer
[21:54] <Upu> tracker
[21:54] <MrCraig> Well the challenge of finding a suitable antenna and pointing it in the right direction, that's an engineering thing - so with effort can be achieved. Overcomming the regulations, that's another matter.
[21:54] <jonsowman> RocketBoy: cambridge or suffolk?
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[21:54] <r2x0t> use setup like for satellites, AZ/EL mounted 4xYAGI
[21:54] <RocketBoy> suffolk
[21:54] <jonsowman> RocketBoy: right
[21:54] <RocketBoy> got the permit earlier
[21:55] <daveake> :)
[21:55] <jonsowman> good stuff
[21:55] <r2x0t> but 2.4GHz or even 1.2GHz would be much better for live video downlink
[21:55] <RocketBoy> yeah
[21:56] <r2x0t> can be tracked by pretty large dish on ground
[21:56] <RocketBoy> 434MHz too small for TV really
[21:56] <r2x0t> and if you use DVB-S modulator, you can rx it on sat tv receiver without any modifications
[21:56] <RocketBoy> I used to do TV back in the 80s - the vestigual filter was a bugger
[21:57] <MrCraig> RocketBoy - Is the legal bandwidth 1Mhz?
[21:57] <RocketBoy> I think it used to be 8MHZ back then
[21:57] <MrCraig> :-/
[21:57] <RocketBoy> 430 - 438 IIRC
[21:58] <RocketBoy> used to put the carrier a smidge below 432
[21:58] <RocketBoy> the 6MHZ sound (PAL) was just below 438
[21:59] <RocketBoy> and the vestigual filter cut off below 431
[21:59] <MrCraig> Then I guess the only option for live video downlink really is getting a NOV.
[21:59] <MrCraig> Or launching from the US where free means free.
[21:59] <RocketBoy> well for fast scan - not for digital
[21:59] <GW8RAK> I doubt you'd get one for 6MHz bandwidth in 70cms band
[21:59] <RocketBoy> or slow scan
[22:00] <RocketBoy> yeah I think we lost some of the 70cms band between then and now
[22:00] <GW8RAK> The band plan mentions 3MHz for fast scan tv
[22:00] <RocketBoy> yuch
[22:00] <RocketBoy> fuzz-o-vision
[22:01] <r2x0t> 3MHz is enough for SD full motion video
[22:01] <GW8RAK> 23 or 13cm would be the best band
[22:01] <RocketBoy> its about VHS quality
[22:01] <fsphil> ah, I didn't realise people could still do telly on 70cm
[22:02] <RocketBoy> I used to be G6AMF/T back in the days you used to have seperate tV licences
[22:02] <fsphil> didn't know that either
[22:03] <MrCraig> well SSTV looks like a fair alternative, it's not video but gets around problem 1 (having some data if your payload hits the drink)
[22:03] <Morseman> From UK Band Plans 435.0000-438.0000 20 kHz Satellites and fast scan TV (Note 4)
[22:03] <Morseman> and 437.0000 Experimental DATV Centre of Activity
[22:04] <Morseman> Note 4 = Note 4: ATV carrier frequencies shall be chosen to avoid interference to other users, in particular the satellite service and repeater inputs.
[22:04] <RocketBoy> I'd like to see someone do MPEG or similar over a digital channel
[22:04] <fsphil> the datv stuff is getting more compact and lighter now
[22:04] <fsphil> yea
[22:04] <fsphil> I imagine it'll eventually be squeezed onto a single chip
[22:04] <r2x0t> easiest would be interfacing with web cam
[22:04] <RocketBoy> it be way cool
[22:04] <r2x0t> over usb host mode
[22:05] <r2x0t> as cheap webcams output MJPEG stream
[22:05] <RocketBoy> ther you gp
[22:05] <RocketBoy> go
[22:05] <NigeyS> habTV .. and now the news with RocketBoy ! :D that'd be cool!
[22:05] <RocketBoy> tehre u go
[22:05] <fsphil> there are cameras that can output h.264 streams
[22:05] <r2x0t> even better
[22:06] <fsphil> the trick is modulating and transmitting it
[22:06] <RocketBoy> pice o cake then
[22:06] <r2x0t> encap that to valid TS stream, encode as DVB-S and it's watchable on your TV
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[22:08] <Upu> does this mean we have to launch two ballons one an hour later called HABTV+1 ? :/
[22:08] <jonsowman> :D
[22:08] Action: Upu gets his coat
[22:08] <NigeyS> lmao
[22:08] <MrCraig> lmao
[22:08] <NigeyS> todays top story .. "It's the wrong bloody form" ........ *hides*
[22:09] <Morseman> I would, of course, have my own channel for repeates
[22:09] <Morseman> repeats - even
[22:09] <fsphil> "News at 10km"
[22:09] <NigeyS> yeah just chuck 1 up called Dave! :p
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[22:09] Action: daveake wakes up
[22:09] <Morseman> Guess what my name is NigeyS ?
[22:09] <NigeyS> oh dear lol
[22:10] <jonsowman> daveake can be Dave Ja Vu
[22:10] <NigeyS> i assume Dave is a bbc owned / run channel ?
[22:10] <Upu> lol
[22:10] <NigeyS> pmsl
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[22:11] <daveake> Many years ago, on the Jasper Carrott show, there used to be a regular sketch "Dave The Cardboard Box"
[22:11] <daveake> That can be me
[22:11] <jonsowman> NigeyS: owned by UKTV according to wikipedia
[22:11] <Morseman> I think it might be NigeyS
[22:11] <NigeyS> ahhh
[22:11] <Morseman> They seem to have a deal with BBC to buy up old Mock The Week and QI shows
[22:11] <NigeyS> jasper carrot ftp!!
[22:11] <NigeyS> err
[22:11] <NigeyS> ftw
[22:11] <NigeyS> yeah thats the 1
[22:12] <daveake> Altogether now, in a Michael Caine voice "You were only supposed to fill the bloody form in!"
[22:12] <NigeyS> loooooool
[22:12] <daveake> (and wait for the permission)
[22:12] <Morseman> Wasn't there a fishing programme called "Tight Lines"? Could do an alternative version for balloons
[22:13] <daveake> "Floppy Latex"
[22:13] <NigeyS> we need the obligatory Adult channel to mind!
[22:13] <jonsowman> Alright that's enough :P
[22:13] <MrCraig> Morseman that called "Tight Astronomy?"
[22:13] <daveake> :)
[22:13] <NigeyS> lovely evening out :-)
[22:14] <jonsowman> isn't it
[22:14] <fsphil> The Sky at Height
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[22:14] <NigeyS> haaaaahaha
[22:14] <MrCraig> hehehe
[22:14] Action: NigeyS wipes coffee from screen
[22:14] <jonsowman> fsphil: do you spend a lot of time thinking of these? you're concerningly good at them
[22:14] <NigeyS> he practices i swear!!
[22:14] <fsphil> sadly not lol
[22:14] <Morseman> fsphil - That has to win pun of the day
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[22:15] <fsphil> brb, dog is trying to eat a cat
[22:15] <NigeyS> wtf..
[22:15] <jonsowman> :\
[22:15] <NigeyS> i have havent i jonsowman, ive woken up in a different dimension or something :|
[22:15] <jonsowman> must have
[22:15] <SpeedEvil> "There's something about Montgolfier'
[22:15] <jonsowman> you're not the only one either
[22:16] <NigeyS> phew !!
[22:16] <Morseman> And a show for the chase teams "Drive Time" of course
[22:16] <NigeyS> SpeedEvil, good 1 :p
[22:16] <NigeyS> ping Matt_soton
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[22:17] <Morseman> I think we should do a piece on the David Niven autobiography as well
[22:17] <Morseman> * taps fingers and waits for everyone to google David Niven
[22:17] <NigeyS> heh
[22:18] <NigeyS> RocketBoy, what is the payload / balloon tomorrow ?
[22:21] <RocketBoy> just a tracker payload - H1600
[22:22] <NigeyS> oh a possible floater then
[22:23] <RocketBoy> possible - simiar to last time - without the rain mehopes
[22:23] <Morseman> OK I'm off to bed. GN all
[22:23] <RocketBoy> me 2
[22:24] <RocketBoy> c u tomorrow
[22:24] <daveake> RocketBoy do you think the rain accounts for the variable ascent rate as well as the early burst?
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[22:25] <NigeyS> daveake, how far are you from yeovil ?
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[22:26] <daveake> About 70 miles I gguess
[22:26] <NigeyS> hrm
[22:26] <daveake> direct that is
[22:26] <NigeyS> wondering at what height you would start tracking a pico
[22:27] <NigeyS> i'll prolly lose it just after it crosses the channel
[22:27] <daveake> Not sure ... house might be in the way
[22:27] <daveake> Last Cambs one I could hear the telemetry from 600+
[22:28] <daveake> This is closer but depends on hills and such
[22:29] <NigeyS> hrms
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[22:32] <fsphil> this is the problem with a pico
[22:32] <NigeyS> yup, so dam low, its hard to predict who is gonna pick it up
[22:34] <fsphil> pretty much why I'd have to launch from a mountain
[22:35] <NigeyS> we got lots of them!
[22:36] <fsphil> indeed, better ones than here too
[22:37] <NigeyS> in theory, if i go down to the docks, and track from there, i should get clear LOS until it hits land other side of the channel
[22:37] <fsphil> higher is always better
[22:37] <fsphil> any access to a tall building in the city?
[22:38] <NigeyS> working on that
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[22:45] <NigeyS> omg
[22:45] <NigeyS> fsphil .. pm
[22:50] <MrCraig> is anyone here running open suse?
[22:51] <MrCraig> nvm
[22:52] <NigeyS> ubuntu here...
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[23:00] <jcoxon> ping Randomskk
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[23:04] <fsphil> woo, flood
[23:07] <Laurenceb_> is there a way other than scp to copy files
[23:07] <Laurenceb_> that only copies updated files
[23:07] <jonsowman> rsync?
[23:07] <Laurenceb_> oh yeah
[23:08] Action: Laurenceb_ brainfade
[23:08] <daveake> beat me to it
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[23:19] <griffonbot> Received email: Daniel Richman "Re: [UKHAS] Launch calendar"
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[23:38] <kmmm> hello
[23:39] <MrCraig> hi
[23:39] <kmmm> im creating a high altitude ballon
[23:39] <kmmm> chek it out http://www.sondaechoes.com/
[23:39] <MrCraig> good - you're in a good place for that
[23:41] <MrCraig> muy bueno
[23:43] <MrCraig> necesito traduccion
[23:43] <kmmm> yes, im from spain
[23:43] <kmmm> sorry :/
[23:44] <MrCraig> that's nothhing to be sorry aboout
[23:44] <MrCraig> it looks great
[23:44] <kmmm> thanks! !
[23:45] <kmmm> you can use google translator ;)
[23:45] <kmmm> not is the same, but..
[23:45] <MrCraig> A combination of google translate and the very limited spanish I have will get me by
[23:46] <MrCraig> I really should finish learning spanish, but after my chances with the girl were gone my inspiration to learn her language dwindled.
[23:47] <kmmm> jeje, a lot of information on the www about high altitude ballons is in english, and my english is to bad
[23:48] <kmmm> but is good, y learning jjeje
[23:48] <MrCraig> asi
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[23:57] <MrCraig> ok - going into R.E.M mode, night all.
[23:57] <MrCraig> (and no I don't mean listening to what's the frequency)
[23:57] Action: SpeedEvil puts on 'Shiny Happy People'
[00:00] --- Sat Mar 17 2012