highaltitude.log.20120228

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[00:01] <spacekitteh> also maybe i'm missing something here but how do you get a blimp to land
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[00:01] <spacekitteh> slight negative bouyancy with slightly down-angled thrusters?
[00:01] <eroomde> negative passively
[00:01] <eroomde> get your lift from moving
[00:01] Action: spacekitteh nods
[00:02] <spacekitteh> we have to hover though
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[00:02] <eroomde> oh
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[00:02] <eroomde> i would have thrust vectoring
[00:02] Action: spacekitteh nods
[00:03] <eroomde> trimming for neutral is tough
[00:03] <spacekitteh> it can be done automatically though, yeah?
[00:03] <eroomde> we have nagative so it somes down in the case of power failure
[00:03] <spacekitteh> like, in the autopilot
[00:03] <eroomde> as demod in that vid
[00:03] <spacekitteh> indeed
[00:03] <eroomde> yep it can be done automatically
[00:03] <eroomde> ultrasonic altimeter or something
[00:03] <spacekitteh> what sort of ratio is good?
[00:03] <spacekitteh> indeed
[00:04] <eroomde> if you have wifi, i'd just use that
[00:04] <eroomde> oh ratio
[00:04] <spacekitteh> for what?
[00:04] <eroomde> sorry i read radio
[00:04] <eroomde> my bad
[00:04] <spacekitteh> we can't send any data to the blimp over wifi once engines start
[00:04] <spacekitteh> it
[00:04] <eroomde> ok
[00:04] <spacekitteh> 's strictly telemetry + video from then on
[00:04] <eroomde> ratio for what?
[00:04] <spacekitteh> lift:payload
[00:04] <eroomde> hmm
[00:04] <spacekitteh> for negative passive bouyancy
[00:05] <eroomde> well, obviously payload > lift
[00:05] <spacekitteh> yeah
[00:05] <eroomde> but by how much i dunno
[00:05] <spacekitteh> what's it on yours?
[00:05] <eroomde> our circumstances would be different to yours
[00:05] <spacekitteh> 1.01:1 maybe?
[00:05] <spacekitteh> true
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[00:05] <eroomde> we had ours to be enough to fall at about 2m/s
[00:05] <eroomde> but it was a 9m blimp
[00:05] <spacekitteh> hmm i'm not sure that's good for us
[00:05] <spacekitteh> yeah
[00:06] <spacekitteh> oh well, testing will determine that i think
[00:06] <eroomde> and it had to fight mountain winds
[00:06] <eroomde> yeah
[00:06] <spacekitteh> hehe
[00:06] <spacekitteh> yeah we have to fight a couple of fans
[00:06] <spacekitteh> how many thrusters did you use?
[00:06] <eroomde> 2 main motors
[00:06] <eroomde> on either side
[00:06] <eroomde> which could be vecoteed together in elevation
[00:07] <eroomde> and then a sideways fan in the tail
[00:07] <spacekitteh> ah
[00:07] <eroomde> for improved pointing at low speeds
[00:07] <spacekitteh> indeed
[00:07] <eroomde> when there's not much air flow over the rudder
[00:07] <spacekitteh> we won't be moving fast enough for rudder steering
[00:07] <eroomde> yeah
[00:08] <spacekitteh> i'm thinking two two-axis motors on the rear
[00:08] <spacekitteh> with another two side facing ones, one at the front, one at the rear
[00:08] <spacekitteh> since the room is only about 12x12x3m
[00:09] <spacekitteh> a tiny turning cirlce is crucial
[00:09] <eroomde> yeah
[00:09] <eroomde> that sounds sensible
[00:09] <MLow-werk> do one of those swivel outboard motor looking things
[00:09] <spacekitteh> yeah that's what i was referring to MLow-werk
[00:10] <MLow-werk> awesome name btw
[00:10] <spacekitteh> :3
[00:10] <MLow-werk> :B
[00:10] Action: spacekitteh is going to be the first kitty kat in space
[00:10] <MLow-werk> russia beat you
[00:10] <MLow-werk> youtube zero G cats
[00:11] <spacekitteh> russia can kiss my pale white ass
[00:11] <MLow-werk> they loook funneh
[00:11] <MLow-werk> flailing around non-sensically
[00:11] <spacekitteh> =^-^=
[00:11] <spacekitteh> oh yeah
[00:11] <spacekitteh> at the end of the year our project is being marked by a panel of engineers from raytheon, boeing, lockheed martin, and bae
[00:11] <spacekitteh> lol
[00:12] <fsphil-laptop> no pressure
[00:12] <spacekitteh> ^
[00:12] <spacekitteh> DSTO too i think
[00:13] <spacekitteh> (australian version of darpa)
[00:13] <MLow-werk> yeah my capstone at college richard garriott was there
[00:13] <MLow-werk> :S
[00:13] <spacekitteh> hehe
[00:13] <MLow-werk> presentation that was
[00:13] <MLow-werk> i bombed, project bombed, but twas fun
[00:14] Nick change: MLow-werk -> MLow
[00:14] <spacekitteh> :3
[00:14] <spacekitteh> i'm pretty sure i'm going to be one of the best teams
[00:14] <MLow> we made a game in 6mo lol
[00:14] <spacekitteh> my team is*
[00:14] <spacekitteh> lol
[00:14] <MLow> had like 2 levels and the writting made no sense
[00:14] <spacekitteh> x3
[00:15] <MLow> we also jokingly made the final level in richard garriotts castle where he was the overlord mad scientist
[00:15] <spacekitteh> hehe
[00:15] <MLow> then they told us he was going to be there
[00:15] <MLow> so we changed that bit up
[00:15] <spacekitteh> :3
[00:15] <spacekitteh> oki i'm going to go play bf3 with my gfs
[00:15] <MLow> we had a ton of gay and black jokes
[00:15] <spacekitteh> cya
[00:15] <MLow> laterz
[00:15] <spacekitteh> MLow:  _ 
[00:15] <MLow> *had*
[00:15] <spacekitteh> <- lesbian
[00:16] <MLow> It was all good fun
[00:16] <spacekitteh> sure sure
[00:16] <MLow> the characters all represented geek stereotypes
[00:16] <MLow> the macho FPS Doug was secretly gay
[00:16] <MLow> but everyone knew it
[00:17] <spacekitteh> were the people on your team straight and white
[00:17] <MLow> the story was these guys(and gal) were working at a game studio for richard garriott, and when he fired them he stole their most precious items
[00:17] <MLow> our sound guy was extremely gay and black
[00:18] <MLow> like dark as oil, and wore a red scarf
[00:18] <MLow> in summer
[00:18] <spacekitteh> ugh
[00:18] <spacekitteh> anyway bbl
[00:18] <MLow> lol have fun with BF3
[00:18] <MLow> add CountX if you wanna blew shat up
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[00:20] <eroomde> MLow: alternative chatrooms exist for your anecdotes
[00:20] <eroomde> thanks
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[00:43] <spacekitteh> eroomde: also, xPC target for simulink
[00:47] <Hix> g'night y'all
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[00:51] <NigeyS> so whos getting up @ 6am wednesday to get a rasberry pi then? :D
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[00:54] <SpeedEvil> I shall be setting an alarm
[00:54] <NigeyS> me too
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[01:54] <MLow> i think i finally fixed this guys laptop
[01:54] <MLow> lol
[01:54] <MLow> screewn would flicker violently
[01:54] <MLow> screewn?
[01:54] <MLow> it's like a snes, i unplugged the cartridge blew in it then reset it
[02:01] <Pavix> Sounds like fun.
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[02:06] <MLow> Yeah he told me last minute(after I replaced the whole motherboard) that he had the screen replaced by a friend
[02:06] Action: MLow facepalms
[02:06] <MLow> so i re-seat all the monitor cables and *poof* flickering gone
[02:08] <MLow> i once saw a computer where the entire motherboard was screwed to the atx case directly, no spacers at all, wow...
[02:10] <Pavix> you should give him some tips so he doesnt make the same mistake twice and save him from trying to RMA a $500 motherboard
[02:10] <MLow> nah it was an asus mobo, talking about a desktop in that example
[02:10] <MLow> he was a new pc builder
[02:10] <Pavix> I like my asus tyvm :P
[02:10] <MLow> i told him how the spacers work, but it didn't quite irk him like it did me
[02:11] <MLow> Dumbed it down...didnt get into the whole idea that metal is a conductor
[02:11] <MLow> damnit, my windows index is only 7.3 I NEED BETTER RAM
[02:12] <MLow> asus is great, to rma
[02:13] <MLow> too bad their only mobos with 2 sockets are like 400$
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[07:34] <natrium42> http://i.imgur.com/JK8hE.jpg
[07:34] <natrium42> :(
[07:35] <Darkside> it would have got to 3km max
[07:35] <Darkside> not space
[07:35] <Darkside> also wtf
[07:36] <UpuWork> what do you expect from 4chan ?
[07:37] <x-f> :/
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[07:41] <NigelMoby> Omg
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[08:04] <costyn> sad
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[08:27] <natrium42> costyn: it was for science i am sure
[08:29] <costyn> meh
[08:33] <fsphil> 4science?
[08:35] <costyn> just glad it wasn't a gerbil or somesuch
[08:35] <fsphil> sssh
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[08:38] <costyn> UpuWork: your wise words on sunday were happily ignored: <Upu> pls record neck lift etc accurately thx
[08:38] <costyn> hehe
[08:39] <fsphil> chairs are not a substitute :)
[08:39] <costyn> seems so
[08:40] <costyn> said he had a scale, but someone misplaced it so he couldn't weigh the weigh, but I can't imagine that his parents (who's village we lifted off from) didn't have any scales in the house
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[08:51] <SamSilver> up up and away > http://www.mymodernmet.com/profiles/blogs/upinspired-floating-house-14
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[09:44] <Lunar_LanderU> hello
[09:45] <Lunar_LanderU> sorry for my absence
[09:45] <Lunar_LanderU> my dad again cut me from the internet
[09:47] <costyn> Lunar_LanderU: have you been bad?
[09:48] <Lunar_LanderU> a bit
[09:48] <Lunar_LanderU> mostly it was his fault
[09:48] <costyn> lol
[09:48] <Lunar_LanderU> but
[09:48] <Lunar_LanderU> Tim landed near a highway says the tracker
[09:49] <Lunar_LanderU> :S
[09:49] <Lunar_LanderU> can you update me what happened on the weekend?
[09:49] <costyn> Lunar_LanderU: yea, it landed far inside Germany and he called the gps tracker and it reported position and then tried to contact some locals to pick it up.
[09:50] <Lunar_LanderU> yes
[09:50] <Lunar_LanderU> so it missed the highway?
[09:50] <Lunar_LanderU> if yes, that is good
[09:50] <costyn> Lunar_LanderU: only when the lady of the local pension went, she couldn't find it, also a local radio ham coldn't find it
[09:50] <Lunar_LanderU> yes
[09:50] <costyn> Lunar_LanderU: the gps tracker also lastly reported it had moved so someone had it but we didn't know who
[09:50] <Lunar_LanderU> ah
[09:51] <natrium42> finders -- keepers, losers -- weepers
[09:51] <costyn> Lunar_LanderU: but then last night Tim got a call from a guy who had picked it up. So now Tim sent him his finder's fee and if all goes well Tim shouold have his camera's back in a bit
[09:51] <costyn> natrium42: well yes Tim was probably weeping yesterday before his phone call. :)
[09:52] <Lunar_LanderU> cool costyn
[09:52] <Lunar_LanderU> I just checked
[09:52] <costyn> Lunar_LanderU: we even had a German friend of mine call the local police station yesterday, but nobody had brought it in
[09:52] <Lunar_LanderU> the latest news on that highway was a truck that burned down last week
[09:52] <Lunar_LanderU> so that was unrelated
[09:52] <costyn> heh ok
[09:52] <costyn> yes
[09:52] <natrium42> < Lunar_LanderU> so that was unrelated
[09:52] <natrium42> suuure
[09:52] <natrium42> O_O
[09:52] <Lunar_LanderU> XD the news says "6 days ago"
[09:56] <costyn> Lunar_LanderU: we drove all the way from north west holland to almost Aachen
[09:56] <Lunar_LanderU> yeah
[09:56] <costyn> Lunar_LanderU: but by then it had just started floating and we decided there was no point following it any more
[09:56] <Lunar_LanderU> ah
[09:57] <Lunar_LanderU> and then some time later the other guy called
[09:57] <natrium42> costyn: is tim planning any more launches?
[09:57] <costyn> natrium42: no, he said he's stopping for the time being; or at least if he does another launch it'll be something completely different, so maybe some other experiment or a pico
[09:58] <Lunar_LanderU> costyn: what was on the balloon this time?
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[09:58] <natrium42> aah
[09:58] <costyn> Lunar_LanderU: a polaroid camera, 2 canon powershots and a gopro, a gps tracker and an arduino based radio tracker, and an uncontrolled nicrhome wire board to keep the polaroid film warm hehe
[09:59] <costyn> was quite a big payload
[09:59] <daveake> I saw that :)
[10:00] <costyn> though the huge amounts of EPS did help keeping everything inside nice and warm
[10:00] <Lunar_LanderU> cool costyn
[10:00] <Lunar_LanderU> hi daveake
[10:00] <costyn> never did get below freezing
[10:00] <daveake> Hi LL. Where were you when Tim needed you? ;)
[10:00] <daveake> costyn with that lot generating heat, it won't
[10:01] <costyn> nope, although everything was pretty compartimentalized
[10:01] <Lunar_LanderU> sorry daveake had trouble with my dad
[10:01] <daveake> sorry to hear that. Was only joking anyway :)
[10:02] <costyn> well would've been useful to have a native German speaker sunday evening when Tim was calling random people in the village where it landed
[10:02] <costyn> but everything turned out okay, again... one lucky sonofabitch
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[10:03] <daveake> Luckier than Mr Lucky of Luckytown on LuckyDay
[10:04] <daveake> In fact, luckier than me :)
[10:04] <Lunar_LanderU> xD
[10:06] <fsphil> he must have some of the luck virus stashed away
[10:08] <Hix> Luck ^10
[10:11] <daveake> Had a play with a GSM module yesterday, sending texts from my Arduino via a RS232 level shifter.
[10:11] <daveake> No need for PDU mode so it's easier than the Ericsson phone I used last time
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[10:12] <daveake> Only issue is that Sparkfun's level shifter is a bit shifty
[10:12] <daveake> Sorted by replacing with a shifter that works :-).
[10:12] <Lunar_LanderU> xD
[10:15] <staylo> daveake: MAX3232 all the way. What issues did you have with the Sparkfun module?
[10:15] <daveake> Didn't work
[10:15] <staylo> Ah :)
[10:16] <daveake> The GSM module powers down the RS232 until it hears something. I suspect that's part of the issue. Anyway I have 3 MAX232 shifters so I popped one of those in
[10:16] <daveake> afk
[10:17] <Lunar_LanderU> costyn: one thing that is important: Know your device speeds
[10:17] <cuddykid> ahh this is interesting
[10:17] <Lunar_LanderU> I got this GUI for the Venus GPS
[10:18] <Lunar_LanderU> and I set it to 115000 baud, as the arduino program contained this number and nothing happened
[10:18] <cuddykid> UpuWork: possible explanation from seed as to why it's slow/no tracking info yet - Since China post office stopped Registered Air Mail service in the previous days. It caused the cargo quantity rising quickly in Hong Kong.
[10:18] <cuddykid> guess it will take mine far longer to get here now :(
[10:18] <Lunar_LanderU> I worked around one hour (that was around 4 am in the morning) before I got the idea to switch to 9600 baud
[10:18] <Lunar_LanderU> and then the data was there
[10:20] <Lunar_LanderU> this also goes to cuddykid and daveake
[10:20] <Lunar_LanderU> :)
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[10:20] <Lunar_LanderU> xD
[10:20] <cuddykid> nice :P
[10:21] <Lunar_LanderU> actually, the TinyGPS example first started a 115000 baud connection
[10:21] <Lunar_LanderU> and then 4800 baud to the GPS
[10:21] <costyn> Lunar_LanderU: thx for the tip :)
[10:21] <Lunar_LanderU> when I selected that I got strange characters
[10:21] <Lunar_LanderU> before remembering the 9600
[10:21] <Lunar_LanderU> no problem :)
[10:21] <Lunar_LanderU> but I always find it strange
[10:21] <Lunar_LanderU> back in 2000, I read about the bauds
[10:22] <Hix> does the max232 allow you to step 5v from arduino to 3.3v for the Ublox 6 then?
[10:22] <Lunar_LanderU> and then they disappeared with DSL internet
[10:22] <cuddykid> yay - tracking info online :D - only to say "being processed for delivery" - how helpful
[10:22] <Lunar_LanderU> never thought I'd need baud like 10 years later again
[10:22] <cuddykid> what - it was not posted on 23rd as seeed said, it was posted today! :S
[10:24] <Hix> cuddykid, same as my solder-station order - you ordered a week after me and it was delivered before
[10:25] <Hix> got the adafruit GPS/SD logger boarrd built last night. Just waiting for Upu's uBlox to come now and I can start asking bazillions of questions as to why my code isn't working :p
[10:26] <fsphil> technically even DSL has a baud rate
[10:27] <fsphil> although symbol rate might be more accurate
[10:27] <cuddykid> yep Hix
[10:28] <Lunar_LanderU> hi fsphil
[10:28] <Lunar_LanderU> yeah my slovenian friend said that the baud number would be very high or so
[10:28] Action: cuddykid has visions of my pcbs being balanced on top of a chinese persons head in a rural village somewhere
[10:31] <UpuWork> boards will be shipping today
[10:31] <Hix> Upu, whoop!!!
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[10:35] <Hix> Looks like my payload camera has arrived from Fleabay too. This is working out nicely
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[10:38] <Lunar_LanderU> hello UpuWork
[10:38] <costyn> UpuWork: ow nice! Saw the pix of the tiny tiny gps antenna, really cool
[10:38] <Hix> Now to just "obtain" my nephew's GoProHD
[10:39] <costyn> UpuWork: wonder how well they perform compared to the sarantels
[10:42] <Lunar_LanderU> OK people
[10:42] <Lunar_LanderU> time to get something to eat
[10:42] <Lunar_LanderU> cu later
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[11:02] <costyn> good plan
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[11:12] <oh7lzb> ~ .
[11:13] <oh7lzb> ops
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[11:26] <Hix> Anyone got schematics for the MAX232 to enable stepping down to 3.3v for uBlox - arduino interfacing?
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[11:32] <eroomde> the internet
[11:32] <eroomde> but
[11:32] <eroomde> there are easier ways
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[11:32] <eroomde> like you can do USB -> 3.3V rs232 directly with an ftdi cable
[11:34] <eroomde> but in the mean time Hix http://www.sparkfun.com/tutorials/104#
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[11:36] <Hix> had a brief look but just keppt churning up spec sheets - rying to do it whilst supposedly working which makes it harder :)
[11:37] <Hix> Excellent - cheers eroomde that looks like just the kind of 101 i was looking for
[11:38] <eroomde> np - sparkfun are very good
[11:38] <eroomde> keep asking stuff, you'll eventually get an intuition for which places are good to find things#
[11:40] <kokey> day jobs, blah
[11:40] <Hix> I've seen theire boards but not really their site. Looks like a mine of good info. Thought Adafruit was good but this looks much more helpful. Thanks again eroomde
[11:40] <Hix> tell me about it kokey 50 hours of it too - doesn't half get in the way of productive work :p
[11:40] <eroomde> that whole tutorial is very good
[11:40] <eroomde> you'll be building your own pcb in no time
[11:41] <fsphil> adafruit's stuff is a bit more hit and miss
[11:41] <Hix> he he - I'm sort of onto that
[11:42] <Hix> I'm a Catia CAD monkey by day, but Eagle sort of looks like catia if you chanke some colours [to the bosses anyway]
[11:43] <Hix> so I'm learning that
[11:43] <Hix> And copy paste info from sites into notepad so it doesn't look like browsing :D
[11:43] <Jim3> BTW guys, you know about the MAX233? same as the MAX232, but will all the caps built in. You can get samples from Maxim.
[11:46] <cuddykid> emailed david for easter permission
[11:47] <fsphil> good luck
[11:48] <cuddykid> I've requested evening permission too - up to 10pm (for a night time flight)
[11:48] <cuddykid> should be interesting haha
[11:49] <cuddykid> need these darn pcbs to arrive - otherwise no flights will be taking place!
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[11:52] <eroomde> this notam thing is so maddeningly convoluted
[11:52] <eroomde> it needs fixing
[11:55] <daveake_> +1
[11:56] <cuddykid> couldn't agree more
[11:59] <fsphil> viva la revolution!
[12:01] <daveake_> <Pink Floyd> ... "We don't need no damn permission ..... we don't need no launch control" </PF>
[12:01] <costyn> :)
[12:01] <daveake_> Sorry I've been sniffing too much solvent at this 'ere factory :)
[12:05] <fsphil> stick to the topic
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[12:27] Action: fsphil decides not to stick to glue jokes
[12:44] <Laurenceb> a sticky subject
[12:44] <staylo> a good rule to adhere to
[12:46] <cuddykid> lo
[12:46] <cuddykid> *lol
[12:46] <fsphil> you both win
[12:51] <Hix> Nice to see some bonding going on in here today
[12:52] <fsphil> bonus points to Hix
[12:55] <jonsowman> oh dear
[12:55] <Hibby> oh dear oh dear.
[12:55] <Hibby> this is like flogging a dead horse.
[12:55] <Hix> uhu anyone around?
[12:55] <Hix> #getscoat
[12:55] <jonsowman> hahaha
[12:55] <jonsowman> very good
[12:56] <Hix> sorry the jokes are just getting (e)poxy now. I'll stop.
[12:56] <jonsowman> :|
[12:57] <Laurenceb> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/02/27/it_staff_stress_survey/
[12:57] <jonsowman> eroomde: wombat PCBs are ready already
[12:57] <Hibby> I've not got a glue what's going on.
[12:57] <Laurenceb> "A survey of stress levels among IT security staff, thought to be the first of its kind, has shown that an alarming number of staffers are suffering dangerous levels of cynicism"
[12:57] Action: fsphil takes back the bonus points from Hix
[12:57] <Laurenceb> i thought all it people were massive cynics
[12:58] <Hix> fsphil, that's cyano unfair!
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[12:58] <cuddykid> java program complete :D
[12:58] <Hibby> cuddykid: now, rewrite it in a proper language.
[12:59] <cuddykid> Hibby: I wish
[12:59] <Hix> :D
[12:59] <cuddykid> lol
[12:59] <cuddykid> CS coursework
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[12:59] <Hibby> in that case, critiscise the lecturer.
[12:59] <Hibby> or study EE. all we ever did was C.
[12:59] <cuddykid> haha - he's madly into java :S
[12:59] <cuddykid> last semester I did C
[12:59] <cuddykid> that was good
[13:00] Action: Hibby derives far too much pleasure from fiddling with timers in ASM
[13:01] <kokey> but with java you can land a good job as a programmer, in india
[13:01] <fsphil> assembly is fun
[13:01] <fsphil> though I often get stuck at doing really trivial things
[13:01] <Hibby> kokey: i thought the key job description there was poor documentation, language doesn't matter?
[13:02] <Hibby> fsphil: it's definately a way of mind
[13:02] <cuddykid> fsphil: I like the branching :P
[13:02] <zyp> fsphil, I prefer treating assembly as a read only language
[13:02] <zyp> I like to read the assembly generated by my compiler
[13:02] <cuddykid> I often have to stop myself from writing a very bad "goto" in C
[13:02] <fsphil> assembly has branching
[13:03] <fsphil> goto is fine if used correctly
[13:03] <Hibby> cuddykid: goto isn't totally evil..
[13:03] <jonsowman> fsphil: http://channel9.msdn.com/achievements/visualstudio
[13:03] <kokey> all languages goto, under the bonnet
[13:04] <cuddykid> I suppose
[13:04] <jonsowman> Go To Hell
[13:04] <jonsowman> (0 points)
[13:04] <jonsowman> Use of the goto keyword. Um, I heard it was a best practice that you weren't supposed to do that anymore.
[13:04] <Hibby> jonsowman: linus wrote a huge rant about that mindset on the lkml
[13:04] <Hibby> and effectively said if used properly, it's fine
[13:04] <jonsowman> heh i didn't see that
[13:04] <jonsowman> i've been using uIP a lot recently
[13:04] <jonsowman> which uses it all over the place
[13:05] <jonsowman> right, must dash, bbl
[13:05] <fsphil> I use goto in the hadie gps parser
[13:05] <Hibby> fsphil: ARE YOU SATAN HIMSELF?
[13:05] <fsphil> *checks*
[13:05] <fsphil> oh yea
[13:06] <Hibby> "Some programmers, such as Linux Kernel designer and coder Linus Torvalds or software engineer and book author Steve McConnell also object to Dijkstra's point of view, stating that GOTOs can be a useful language feature, improving program speed, size and code clearness, but only when used in a sensible way by a comparably sensible programmer"
[13:06] <Hibby> From wiki. the actual page is unavailable atm :(
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[13:32] <griffonbot> @DutchMillbt: XABEN-22 flight announcement #ukhas Sunday March 4th Suffolk GB 434.075MHz #hamradio see: http://t.co/FFgGB2fa [http://twitter.com/DutchMillbt/status/174487180213878784]
[13:34] <Randomskk> best post ever
[13:34] <Randomskk> four balloons, three parachutes, PCB stencil, £250 of electronic parts
[13:34] <Randomskk> all spread over seven parcels
[13:34] <Randomskk> and then later today I'm driving to pick up the new PCBs
[13:34] <cuddykid> nice!
[13:35] <Randomskk> well jonsowman's doing the driving :P
[13:35] <cuddykid> Randomskk: where do you get your pcbs from?
[13:35] <Randomskk> normally seeed or itead or gold pheonix
[13:35] <Randomskk> in this case, cambridge circuit
[13:36] <Randomskk> who have made them in a day
[13:36] <Randomskk> and are a 15min drive
[13:36] <cuddykid> oh wow, high price?
[13:36] <Randomskk> "request a quote" ;(]
[13:36] <Randomskk> ;) *
[13:36] <cuddykid> jeez
[13:36] <cuddykid> lol
[13:36] <cuddykid> that will be £1M :O
[13:37] <cuddykid> I'll stick to my chinese labourer :P
[13:37] <cuddykid> can't spell
[13:38] <Randomskk> they do seem totally awesome
[13:38] <Randomskk> especially if you need PCBs in a hurry
[13:39] <eroomde> i think a kernel driver is one of the only times you're allowed to use goto
[13:39] <fsphil> interrupt handlers too
[13:39] <zyp> bullshit
[13:39] <zyp> why would they be any more or less allowable there?
[13:40] <Randomskk> tradeoffs can be different in context zyp
[13:40] <Randomskk> the same guidelines won't apply to every time you write code
[13:40] <Randomskk> the only reason goto is bad is that it can lead very quickly into super spaghetti code
[13:40] <Randomskk> so recommending it never be used is a quick way to prevent that
[13:40] <Randomskk> eroomde: seven massive parcels. the porters were thrilled.
[13:40] <Randomskk> this stencil seems nice htough
[13:41] <Randomskk> sadly I put paste on my test points :( have to clean that off or something
[13:41] <Randomskk> which is weird b/c the test point footprint has paste turned off...
[13:41] <Randomskk> must have not updated or something. oops
[13:41] <kokey> return # from goto to unless conversation about goto
[13:41] <kokey> unless=endless
[13:41] <gonzo_> just melt the solder on the test points, easier for the DVM probes to bite in
[13:41] <Randomskk> yea but the board is ENIG
[13:42] <Randomskk> so it'd be like, less pretty
[13:42] <zyp> Randomskk, and why is spaghetti code any more or less allowable in kernel drivers and interrupt handlers?
[13:42] <Randomskk> zyp: because sometimes you need quick performance there more
[13:42] <zyp> and how, exactly does goto give «quick performance»?
[13:42] <gonzo_> use goto's at your own peril
[13:42] <eroomde> you can break out of some deeply nested stateful thing very quickly
[13:42] <Randomskk> because there exist cases where using them speeds up code and reduces the amount of code
[13:43] <eroomde> when you need to clear up
[13:43] <kokey> because it's a single cpu instruction
[13:43] <Randomskk> anyway off to lectures bbl
[13:43] <cuddykid> ditto
[13:43] <gonzo_> (asm_ JMP)
[13:44] <zyp> there is no reason the same could not be realized without goto
[13:44] <eroomde> when i say 'one of the only times' i mean one of the few generally-considered-legitimate times you might encounter its use in a pc-ey systems programming world
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[13:45] <eroomde> and they do it because it can make the structure of the code much simpler to read
[13:46] <eroomde> but discourage it elsewhere as it's a sharp knife and you can easily make a mess
[13:47] <zyp> that argumentation doesn't make sense
[13:47] <zyp> just sounds like hypocrisy
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[13:48] <zyp> «I'm allowed to use it, because I'm a kernel programmer, and we are tidy, but you guys are not, so you can't.»
[13:48] <eroomde> that's more or less exactly the reasoning given though
[13:48] Nick change: daveake_ -> daveake
[13:48] <eroomde> whther or not you dislike it is neither here nor there
[13:48] <zyp> and that's stupid.
[13:50] <eroomde> it's because less experienced programmers can get themselves into a pickle with goto, much like using global variables everywhere. It's usually discouraged pedagogically (I think correctly)
[13:50] <kokey> I think there's an evil conspiracy against goto
[13:50] <eroomde> but if used judiciously it can simplify the structure of your code, and make it more apparent what you're trying to do
[13:51] <zyp> you know, instead of stereotyping and offending people, you could say «Use goto in the off case it makes your code tidyer, otherwise don't.»
[13:51] <eroomde> thankfully i'm not pathologicalkly over-sensitive so i wouldn't find anything like that offensive
[13:51] Action: LazyLeopard as once given a FORTRAN program that was a long as the compiler would allow. It was GOTO leapfrogs from one end to the other, and the next-to-last statement was "CALL GETOUT(huge list of variables)"
[13:52] <LazyLeopard> When I found "SUBROUTINE GETOUT" in the next file, I wasn't surprised to find that it simply continued the program's GOTO leapfrogs another few hundred lines...
[13:53] <LazyLeopard> ...and then exited, never to return.
[13:54] <LazyLeopard> SHould have been written in ASSEMBLER. It'd have made more sense.
[13:54] <eroomde> but i agree with your summary. I think the issue comes when people think it's a panacea for structuring software and it quickly becomes a mess. I think this is basically one of dijkstra's points in his arguments against teaching programming with basic
[13:56] <LazyLeopard> Yep. There is a place for "goto", but if you teach beginners to use it then they do so instead of using all the other clearer cleaner alternatives. ;)
[13:57] <kokey> just use GOSUB
[13:57] <eroomde> thanks :)
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[13:58] <gonzo_> but if you teach a beginner BASIC, they are so mantally crippled by it, they will never leard to code properly
[13:58] <kokey> I started out with LOGO and BASIC
[13:59] <kokey> so did pretty much everyone who started out in the 80s at home
[13:59] <eroomde> indeed, but then dijkstra was not known for understatement
[13:59] <kokey> hehe
[13:59] <kokey> now there's an interesting project
[13:59] <gonzo_> me too, and it's taken 30yrs of therapy to recover
[13:59] <eroomde> i read somewhere someone proposing the unit of arrogance to be nano-dijkstras
[13:59] <kokey> a HAB using only 80s technology
[14:00] <eroomde> kokey: i'd be up for it
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[14:00] <eroomde> it'd probably be much more solid and reliable!
[14:00] <eroomde> well except no gps
[14:00] <kokey> Z80 processor
[14:00] <gonzo_> you could do a ,lot with an HC11
[14:00] <kokey> yeah will have to do telemetry some other way
[14:00] <eroomde> i would make an exception that you can use a modern gps
[14:00] <eroomde> otherwise you'd need 20W
[14:01] <kokey> eroomde: why 20W? you could probably find a way to triangulate from the ground instead
[14:01] <gonzo_> nope, use LORAN
[14:02] <eroomde> we've done triangulation a number of times
[14:02] <eroomde> it's no problem
[14:02] <eroomde> just more time consuming
[14:02] <gonzo_> (The old Transit satnav was about, but that probably needs lots of heavy Rf gear)
[14:02] <eroomde> jcoxon once flew a backup 1hz 10mW beeper on a payload
[14:03] <eroomde> his main payload died at about 800m altitde, so we tracked and recovered from the beeper
[14:03] <eroomde> nice to do every now and then to keep your eye in
[14:03] <eroomde> but uses a lot more petrol driving around to take measurements
[14:03] <kokey> I'm just not sure what to do about image capture
[14:03] <eroomde> and ideally needs 2 chase cars
[14:03] <kokey> film?
[14:04] <eroomde> heh, film and a heated camera container
[14:04] <kokey> has there been much launches done using more than one latex balloon?
[14:04] <gonzo_> the USSR used to fly wet film inline processing in their early spy sats
[14:05] <eroomde> kokey: we've done a couple
[14:05] <eroomde> but haven't found them to be mega useful to do outside some niche applications
[14:06] <kokey> eroomde: I guess between film cameras, z80 computer, radios without ICs, old batteries, etc. you will need more lift
[14:07] <gonzo_> the early met sondes had valve TX, so once we have done the 80's HAB, that should be the next step!
[14:07] <kokey> gonzo_: haha, must have had quite a weight
[14:08] <gonzo_> actually they were very compact
[14:08] <gonzo_> single self oscillating TX and simple audio modulator for the telemetry
[14:09] <gonzo_> later ones had multiple sensors with a clockwork selector to mux them
[14:12] <kokey> that somehow excites me
[14:15] <gonzo_> the HV batts are not avail these days, so would need to cheat with a switcher. Or poss chaining 12V key fob batts
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[14:53] <Elwell> are the loran chains still active?
[14:55] <gonzo_> good question, last time I played was a while ago
[14:56] Action: Elwell used to faff with a decca one, and wikipedia tells me they stopped in 2000
[14:59] <UpuWork> Josh has been busy again : http://www.skyandtelescope.com/news/home/Great-Heights-Reached-with-Gaffer-Tape-140561953.html
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[15:07] <x-f> hi, .cz
[15:14] <whoami> hi all
[15:16] <Hix> hi whoami
[15:18] <whoami> did someone
[15:18] <whoami> sorry bad window
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[15:55] <NigelMoby> http://www.reghardware.com/2012/02/28/fxi_technologies_offers_cotton_candy_linux_pc_on_a_stick/
[15:55] <NigelMoby> hem
[15:55] <NigelMoby> hrm*
[15:58] <SpeedEvil> Interesting.
[15:58] <SpeedEvil> Obvious competitor is obvious though.
[16:00] <NigelMoby> Yup, I don't see much use for it tbh, no different to any other Linux distro on a hab drive.
[16:00] <NigelMoby> usb*
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[16:21] <fsphil> UpuWork, that the back of your head in that S&T photo?
[16:23] <Hix> pink box.....
[16:23] <fsphil> yea.. *turns the colour down on his screen*
[16:24] <cuddykid> oh, my testing (of the chase car iPhone app) didn't work :(
[16:24] <cuddykid> anyone know why?
[16:24] <fsphil> I've only used the android version
[16:25] <cuddykid> does the space near server have a password?
[16:25] <fsphil> it needed a password
[16:25] <fsphil> yea
[16:25] <cuddykid> ahh right
[16:25] <cuddykid> that will be the problem then - doh
[16:25] <fsphil> although I don't think habitat does
[16:25] <Hix> did you make sure to change the server from upu to spacenear?
[16:25] <fsphil> depends how it uploads it
[16:25] <Hix> its defaulted to upu
[16:25] <cuddykid> yeah, it's running on spacenear
[16:25] <Hix> well is on android
[16:26] <UpuWork> yeah it has a password cuddykid
[16:26] <UpuWork> use mine for testing
[16:26] <Hix> ok - just incase :)
[16:26] <UpuWork> http://ava.upuaut.net/tracker
[16:26] <cuddykid> doesn't work UpuWork :(
[16:26] <UpuWork> except its not working
[16:26] <UpuWork> derp derp
[16:26] <cuddykid> lol
[16:26] <UpuWork> brb
[16:29] <CovBalloon> Hello All, Upu how arethe GPS and oards coming along
[16:29] <UpuWork> done
[16:29] <UpuWork> and posted if you ordered on
[16:29] <UpuWork> one
[16:29] <UpuWork> shipped the first load out today
[16:29] <Hix> :D
[16:29] <UpuWork> http://i.imgur.com/oE7gX.jpg
[16:29] <CovBalloon> no missed your announcement obviously
[16:29] <UpuWork> Yeah going to do it this evening
[16:29] <UpuWork> just did the preorders
[16:30] <UpuWork> but if you want to order go for it everything is in stock with the exception of the chip antennas which are due in 2 days
[16:31] <UpuWork> try tracker now cuddykid
[16:31] <cuddykid> taa UpuWork
[16:31] <UpuWork> Its the old tracker
[16:31] <cuddykid> will do in a couple of mins
[16:31] <UpuWork> and you may get Jeffs head on it
[16:31] <UpuWork> he gets lost so we put a tracker on him
[16:31] <cuddykid> lol
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[16:34] <UpuWork> yeah sorry CovBalloon I wanted to make sure everything worked, then I fulfilled the preorders was going to mail the list tonight
[16:34] <UpuWork> what are you after ?
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[16:41] <UpuWork> there you go mail sent
[16:42] <griffonbot> Received email: Anthony Stirk "[UKHAS] HAB Supplies"
[16:43] <cuddykid> UpuWork: are you planning any rfm22b breakouts?
[16:43] <UpuWork> can do if there is interest
[16:43] <UpuWork> I have done one actually
[16:43] <eroomde> a chinese high altitude balloon designed to catch you off-guard
[16:43] <cuddykid> UpuWork: any good?
[16:44] <UpuWork> 1 sec
[16:44] <UpuWork> dunno its a break out :)
[16:45] <cuddykid> lol yes, that was a stupid question haha
[16:45] <cuddykid> ergh, somethings going on with my internet
[16:46] <UpuWork> ah when I say I did one
[16:46] <UpuWork> what I meant was I sorta started
[16:47] <fsphil> eagle fatigue?
[16:47] <UpuWork> not sure probably did something else and forgot
[16:47] <cuddykid> lol
[16:47] <UpuWork> its on my list
[16:47] <cuddykid> eagle fatigue is easy to get
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[16:53] <cuddykid> hmm UpuWork, tracker not working :(
[16:53] <cuddykid> using your address and password: whereami
[16:58] <UpuWork> ok
[16:58] <UpuWork> I'll have a look when I get home
[16:59] <cuddykid> it might be the app itself
[17:03] <daveake> Interesting ... now I'm using the FT790, all of a sudden 300 baud works all the time :)
[17:03] <fsphil> that'd odd
[17:03] <fsphil> d/s
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[17:04] <daveake> why odd?
[17:04] <fsphil> 300 should work on any receiver
[17:04] <daveake> oic
[17:04] <daveake> Well the AR8000 didn't seem that happy with it
[17:05] <daveake> I'll try that soon. I'm just comparing 50 and 300 on the rfm22b using 2 methods of setting the frequency
[17:06] <daveake> I'm doing spectrum plots of all combos and I'll repeat the lot with the AOR
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[17:12] <number10> daveake: when you are mobile what prog do you use for chat?
[17:13] <daveake> Trillian usually.
[17:13] <daveake> Wait ... when you say "mobile", you mean in the chase car with a laptop, or with a mobile phone?
[17:14] <number10> yes
[17:14] <daveake> WHICH
[17:14] <daveake> :D
[17:14] <number10> well not with phone
[17:14] <daveake> :)
[17:14] <number10> mobile netbook windows
[17:14] <daveake> Yeah, Trillian
[17:14] <number10> cheers I'll try it out - as orange seem to block webchat
[17:14] <daveake> Strange
[17:15] <number10> I think its a child saftey thing that I can request disabled
[17:15] <daveake> Some operators/sims do block whatever port it is that IRC uses (as they do for MSN etc).
[17:16] <daveake> But webchat us just port 80 like any other http
[17:16] <number10> I'll try the trillian thing on the netbook
[17:18] <eroomde> you only need to try a couple
[17:18] <eroomde> don't worry
[17:18] <Hix> number10, XcHAT seems pretty good. small and light got it on my work pc off usb stick
[17:18] <cuddykid> raspberry pi tomorrow morning!!
[17:18] <cuddykid> £22
[17:18] <cuddykid> 6am!
[17:19] <Hix> and you can set it to log sdo if it bombs it keeps what you were on about till you get home
[17:19] <number10> cheers Hix
[17:20] <Hix> daveake, http://xchat.org/
[17:23] <number10> work chucked a load of SMD components away today - I just didnt have the time or space to sort it out
[17:24] <number10> shame to waste stuff really
[17:25] <Hix> :( could have used some stuff as practice
[17:25] Action: fsphil isn't getting up at 6am to get some pi
[17:25] <number10> I am sure there will be more - I'll let you know if there is some Hix
[17:26] <cuddykid> 6am won't be happening here either
[17:26] <number10> wrong season for raspberries fsphil
[17:26] <cuddykid> though at £22 I am *very* hungry for pi
[17:26] <fsphil> pi is good
[17:26] <cuddykid> can't believe all the components on it for just £22
[17:27] <daveake> fsphil take a look at http://imgur.com/a/8WQ98
[17:27] <BrainDamage> and some profit margin too
[17:27] <cuddykid> yep
[17:27] <daveake> Top image is from the AR8000; bottom from the FT790R. No other change.
[17:29] <fsphil> it almost looks like overmodulation
[17:30] <fsphil> does it sound different?
[17:30] <daveake> Both decode fine at 50 baud. If I switch to 300 the FT790 decodes 100% but the AOR has a few % errors
[17:30] <daveake> Yes sounds different
[17:32] <daveake> The AOR sounds screechy but the yaesu has a "rounded" tone, if that makes sense
[17:32] <cuddykid> lol -> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6510851/Countdown/index.html
[17:32] <fsphil> wonder if the signal is too strong for the aor
[17:32] <eroomde> i will probably pass on 6am tomorrow
[17:32] <eroomde> i have enough to keep me busy this month
[17:33] <cuddykid> ditto
[17:33] <fsphil> no guarantee the announcement is even that they're for sale
[17:33] <daveake> Maybe. I'll move the Tx away and try. I should say though that when we had a 50/300 baud flight last year, I didn't get any complete packets at 300
[17:34] <cuddykid> fsphil: nope, but it does sound likely as a few days ago they made an announcement saying that their first batch is on the way
[17:34] <fsphil> yea
[17:34] <cuddykid> but it could just be an announcement saying when it will go on sale :P - but that would be cruel haha
[17:36] <fsphil> love that countdown clock
[17:36] <cuddykid> it's very nice - but the time is wrong lol
[17:37] <fsphil> very
[17:45] <daveake> fsphil Have moved the Tx to the other end of the house. No change. With the FT every packet decodes; with the AOR there's an average of about 1-2 visibly bad bytes per packet, with maybe 1 in 4 packets decoding OK
[17:47] <fsphil> don't understand that. is the volume level going into the PC too high?
[17:49] <daveake> No, I'v tried adjusting that, and i have it set about the same as with the FT
[17:50] <fsphil> must be some weird wibbly wobbly frequency thing going on inside there
[17:52] <daveake> Seems to me that it has a fault or maladjustment somewhere, and it's getting away with that at 50 baud but not at 300
[17:52] <daveake> Those traces I showed you were recorded from a 50 baud transmission
[17:53] <eroomde> sqelch?
[17:53] <eroomde> squelch*
[17:53] <daveake> wound right off
[17:55] <eroomde> ntx2 or rfm22?
[17:55] <number10> write some debug transmitter test code very slow change between 1 and 0 and see how the frequency changes on the transition, maybe
[17:55] <eroomde> wondering if the transitions from one freq to the other are messy and bashing the automatic gain control
[17:55] <daveake> rfm22b. However I had the same issue when I tried with an NTX2 ages ago
[17:56] <daveake> Interesting thoughts
[17:58] <daveake> The rfm22b has frequency registers and also a frequency offste register. jcoxon's code uses the former and navrac's the latter. INn my code I can select either with a #define but both methods decode 100% on the Yaesu and less than that on the AOR
[17:59] <number10> ebay time?
[17:59] <daveake> Again? :p
[18:01] <daveake> Has anyone had success with an AR8000 at 300 baud?
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[18:02] <Hix> daveake, will the ntx2 output 300? Getting one in the next couple of days and have just got AR8000 so could have a look
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[18:03] <daveake> Hix Yes
[18:05] <Hix> ok, i'll have a look when i get something set up and report back
[18:07] <eroomde> Hix: it'll output up to what its internal low pass filter will let you
[18:07] <eroomde> which i think is something like 3khz, tho don't remember
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[18:13] <griffonbot> @apexhab: Launch tomorrow currently going ahead - payload coming together nicely at last. #apexhab #ukhas [http://twitter.com/apexhab/status/174557739245256704]
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[18:15] <eroomde> 5kHz infact
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[18:19] <daveake> OK, I've switched off the rtty altogether so the transmitter is outputting a single frequency only. Top trace is the AOR lower the Yaesu: http://imgur.com/a/H09KR
[18:21] <daveake> If I look at the sine wave from the AOR it's jittering like a hittery thing
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[18:22] <daveake> FT is a bit wobbly but a lot better
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[18:25] <eroomde> maybe your aor is kpooerated
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[18:25] <daveake> I'm tending to agree with that expert analysis :)
[18:26] <NigeyS> gremlins
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[18:28] <nigelvh> It would be nice if you had something like a station monitor to use as a "reference" as to what the demodulated signal should look like. So you could see what's from the AOR, the Yaesu, or from the XMITTER itself.
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[18:34] <eroomde> an ovenised crystal oscillator from ebay
[18:35] <eroomde> 10MHz sinewave on the nose
[18:35] <nigelvh> I've got one of those, it's old though, and a bit off of 10MHz, but pretty close
[18:35] <nigelvh> I replaced it with a trimble thunderbolt.
[18:36] <chris_99> or you could use a rubidium clock
[18:37] <nigelvh> Or, you could get a cesium fountain clock.
[18:37] <eroomde> the nicest thing would be a pll with an OCXO and a gps with a 10mhz timepulse
[18:37] <eroomde> use the 0CXO for super low phase noise
[18:37] <eroomde> use the gps for 10^-14 freq stability over a week
[18:37] <eroomde> between them, the most 10MHzy possible thing you can make, i'd have thought
[18:38] <nigelvh> Yeah, my trimble is accurate to less than 0.1 parts per billion.
[18:38] <chris_99> rubium clocks are like 25 quid on ebay though nigelvh ;)
[18:39] <nigelvh> Yes, but the GPS clocks are automatically corrected, and have time, as well as a reference frequency.
[18:39] <nigelvh> Also, I got mine for like $120
[18:39] <nigelvh> including power supply and antenna
[18:39] <eroomde> gps >> Rb for stability
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[18:40] <chris_99> really though eroomde, depends on the crystal
[18:40] <chris_99> surely
[18:40] <chris_99> what i'd like it to use an SDR GPS with a rubidium
[18:40] <chris_99> *to do
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[18:44] <nigelvh> Also, I like to use mine for more accurate positioning. Set it up and let it run a few thousand point position survey.
[18:44] <nigelvh> Not as accurate as DGPS (though I could set it up for that)
[18:44] <nigelvh> but pretty good.
[18:45] <chris_99> does the Trimble use an OCXO then?
[18:45] <nigelvh> Yeah
[18:45] <eroomde> i'm not sure really that the local crystal makes that much difference
[18:45] <chris_99> it does
[18:45] <eroomde> it's all about the gps for stability
[18:45] <nigelvh> It does make some
[18:45] <chris_99> for the pulses
[18:45] <eroomde> the local crystla is for low phase noise
[18:45] <chris_99> it still needs it to keep time
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[18:45] <chris_99> surely?
[18:46] <nigelvh> If you get a lower noise crystal, the trimble will be more accurate
[18:46] <eroomde> i don't think so, nope
[18:46] <chris_99> what happens when you loose a fix, it still keeps time then?
[18:46] <chris_99> at least mine does
[18:46] <eroomde> oh yes
[18:46] <nigelvh> I read a mod a guy did who replaced the internal one with a big HP one and got better accuracy.
[18:46] <eroomde> there is that
[18:46] <eroomde> but i'm assuming nominally here
[18:46] <eroomde> but in essence the PLL is like a kalman filter
[18:47] <eroomde> the gps is your observation
[18:47] <eroomde> which is a 10mhz signal + noise
[18:47] <eroomde> the local crystla is kinda like your observer
[18:47] <nigelvh> The trimble clocks the GPS with the OCXO, and measures the phase difference to bring it into alignment. Then adjusts the crystal to match.
[18:47] <eroomde> and the output is your estimate of what the gps time actually is
[18:48] <eroomde> yes that's a slightly different way of doing things than the pll version
[18:48] <nigelvh> Yeah. I'm just speaking to the device I have.
[18:48] <eroomde> that's just measuring the difference between your local and your gps and adjusting the local temp to close the gap
[18:48] <nigelvh> Yes
[18:48] <eroomde> which is a perfectly fine way of doing it i guess
[18:48] <eroomde> but would take a lot longer to settle
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[18:49] <eroomde> like a week or something
[18:49] <nigelvh> They do recommend leaving it run for a day or two before relying on it being that accurate, while it measures the crystal's characteristics
[18:50] <nigelvh> Then once it's got those, it will remain relatively accurate in a hold-over mode in the case of loss of signal
[18:50] <eroomde> yeah
[18:50] <eroomde> that's probably the ideal thing for something like hardcore netowkring
[18:51] <nigelvh> They are commonly used on cell sites.
[18:51] <eroomde> stands to reason
[18:51] <nigelvh> Generally, unless I plan on doing a whole lot of measurements over a few days, I just turn mine on about an hour before I want to use it.
[18:52] <nigelvh> It's close enough to use for everyday use at that point.
[18:52] <eroomde> i think oven controlled ones on their own want at least 30 mins anyway don't they
[18:52] <eroomde> just to stabilise their temp
[18:52] <nigelvh> Yeah, something like that.
[18:52] <eroomde> coolio
[18:53] <eroomde> right, time to head home
[18:53] <eroomde> catch you later
[18:53] <nigelvh> Later
[18:53] <nigelvh> Have a good evening
[18:53] <nigelvh> It's nearly lunchtime for me.
[18:53] <eroomde> mmm food
[18:54] <eroomde> that's an idea
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[19:06] <daveake> Haha, take that FSA03 :-)
[19:07] <daveake> I managed to break the Sarantel earlier.
[19:07] <daveake> Fortunately the fault was that it lifted the centre PCB track to the antenna
[19:07] <daveake> One single strand of wire soldered on and now it works again :)
[19:08] <number10> your eyesight is still ok then
[19:08] <daveake> At the limit, numbe3r10, at the limit :)
[19:08] <number10> baebel.c
[19:08] <number10> :)
[19:08] <daveake> barbel.c? Wrong fish :)
[19:09] <number10> indeed... well, I think I have done the same with an FSA03 here
[19:09] <daveake> Easily done
[19:09] <number10> I will glue the next one I use
[19:10] <daveake> Yep
[19:10] <daveake> I never thought I'd say this .... but 300 baud seems fast :p
[19:10] <number10> well it can keep up with your typing speed ;)
[19:10] <daveake> :)
[19:11] <daveake> Right, time to cook
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[19:12] <griffonbot> Received email: Priyesh Patel "[UKHAS] Re: Apex III Launch 1 Announcement"
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[19:12] Nick change: Jessica__ -> Jessica_Lily
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[19:18] <cuddykid> wow priyesh, danielsaul - that's a lot of pcbs for all the modules! Where did you get them made?
[19:20] <whoami> someone who know where to get yaesu 817 or somethink similiar for cheap..? thanks..
[19:20] <cuddykid> whoami: ebay
[19:21] <cuddykid> picked up my 817 for £260 something a few years back
[19:21] <number10> they seem to be holding value these days
[19:22] <whoami> cuddykid: before few days i found $600+ it is fo much for me
[19:23] <cuddykid> yeah, they are expensive - mine was a bargain - 2 options:
[19:23] <cuddykid> 1) keep looking
[19:23] <cuddykid> 2) there are cheaper handheld scanners out there that work very well - WillDuckworth has one but not sure what the make/model is
[19:24] <nigelvh> The 817 is low on stock presently. So the prices are pretty high.
[19:25] <nigelvh> The running theory is that Yaesu's having a hard time sourcing the LCDs presently.
[19:25] <whoami> im looking for not speciali 817 but somethink in same way
[19:26] <nigelvh> Well, there's a million options. QRP/Full power, What bands, what modes?
[19:29] <whoami> my only need is 400-470Mhz for RTTY with display... and an advice..:-)
[19:30] <nigelvh> What do you need on the display?
[19:30] <PD3EM_> at least take a rig with a good fsk/data output. I've used the FT-847 last sunday and decoded perfectly with an s0 signal strenght
[19:30] <whoami> frequency..
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[19:31] <number10> must have been a microwave dish daveake_
[19:32] <whoami> for better tuning
[19:33] <daveake_> number10 lol
[19:34] <daveake_> Just waiting for it to finish cooking
[19:34] <number10> ping!
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[19:35] <daveake_> Pepper steak ... alcohol and wanton arson ... what could possibly go wrong? :)
[19:36] <number10> sounds nice
[19:36] <daveake_> It is :)
[19:45] <daveake_> In case anyone's interested, there's a new Apollo 13 programme on Ch5 starting at 8 this evening.
[19:53] <cuddykid> steak here too :D
[20:07] <fsphil> "There mission was to land on an unexplored part of the moon..." ... er
[20:12] <gonzo_> you have the title handy dave?
[20:13] <costyn> soo... does carbon fiber block radio signals?
[20:13] <costyn> since it conducts I'm guessing it does
[20:14] <daveake_> gonzo_ "Apollo 13 - The True Story"
[20:14] <gonzo_> ta will look
[20:14] <gonzo_> no tv here so have to see if I can downlad it tomorrow
[20:15] <daveake_> It's a bit slow
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[20:37] <jonsowman> eroomde: http://www.flickr.com/photos/cuspaceflight/6793049100/in/photostream
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[20:38] <Upu> interesting whats the circuit in front of the GPS antenna ?
[20:38] <jonsowman> Upu: there's an LNA on the GPS frontend
[20:38] <Upu> oh ok
[20:39] <Upu> NEO-6 ?
[20:39] <fsphil> shiny board
[20:39] <jonsowman> Upu: yep
[20:39] <Upu> very nice
[20:39] <jonsowman> fsphil: ENIG is so pretty!
[20:40] <fsphil> it's like gold
[20:40] <Upu> expensive :)
[20:50] <nigelvh> costyn: Yes, carbon fiber blocks radio signals.
[20:51] <nigelvh> The higher the frequency, the more it attenuates them
[20:51] <nigelvh> Also, depending on how close the antenna is, it will detune the antenna some.
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[20:53] <Laurenceb_> how fast
[20:53] <Laurenceb_> O_o
[20:54] <Laurenceb_> also why populate the power header first?
[20:57] Action: SpeedEvil tries to remember what he was meaning to ask Laurenceb.
[20:58] <SpeedEvil> Ah - yes - I was idly wondering about a mode where it could simply record the whole output, but I suspect that'd need both a large SD, and more space on the board.
[21:00] <Laurenceb_> yes to more space
[21:01] <Laurenceb_> but with a 64GB microsd you could store almost 1 day of data
[21:02] <SpeedEvil> Fairly silly. In principle that'd give you centimetric errors I guess if you have a control dataset from a known point.
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[21:18] <LazyLeopard> Sliced and diced, more like...
[21:18] <The-Compiler> ohshit
[21:19] <Upu> ping CovBalloon you about ?
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[21:40] <griffonbot> Received email: Priyesh Patel "[UKHAS] Re: Apex III Launch 1 Announcement"
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[22:13] <_Hix-Android> Apex launch tomorrow, 50 + 300 baud, assume it'll just sound different and fldigi will ignore the wrong tone
[22:16] <LazyLeopard> Yep. Typically, if you're listening on 300, the 50 produces lots of garbage characters, and the other way round you also get garbage characters, but rather fewer of them...
[22:17] <LazyLeopard> ... but dl-fldigi should recognise the actual strings and ignore the garbage.
[22:19] <priyesh> remember you can open 2 versions of fldigi and decode both!
[22:20] <LazyLeopard> Not om my old laptop I can't ;)
[22:20] <priyesh> that's a shame :(
[22:20] <LazyLeopard> It'll be doing the 50 baud, most likely. It just about keeps up with 300 if the lines aren't too long. ;)
[22:21] <priyesh> the lines are pretty long this time
[22:21] <LazyLeopard> Right. Definitely 50, then. ;)
[22:23] <fsphil-laptop> why the dual baud?
[22:24] <_Hix-Android> Thought so, just checking. Gonna try linking mobile to phone as WiFi access
[22:24] <_Hix-Android> To annoy you with 300 Fsphil :p
[22:25] <_Hix-Android> Oh, no it was Dave doing 300 tests earlier oops
[22:25] <fsphil-laptop> lol
[22:26] <fsphil-laptop> I've never managed to decode 300 at this distance
[22:26] <_Hix-Android> Well, I was pretending to work at the same time
[22:39] <eroomde> Nova 2 (nov 2006) was 300 baud
[22:39] <eroomde> got it out to about 300/400km
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[22:39] <eroomde> FT790R & random 6-el yagi
[22:40] <Upu> *cough*
[22:40] <Upu> Apex Alpha ’ 2E0UPU - 677.9km (22/10/2011)
[22:40] <Upu> @300
[22:40] <Upu> CUSF got it to 660km
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[22:44] <eroomde> foiled
[22:45] <_Hix-Android> Assume range difference is volume of data to get a clean string?
[22:45] <_Hix-Android> Or rather speed of
[22:46] <eroomde> once more?
[22:47] <_Hix-Android> Moi?
[22:48] <eroomde> yep
[22:48] <eroomde> didn't follow the question
[22:48] <_Hix-Android> Is range down to the speed it is bcast so hard to get clean data if weak.
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[22:53] <eroomde> that in turn means it's more likely to make the wrong decision because of other background noise
[22:54] <eroomde> and it's from this that we get the term signal-to-noise ratio, which is the main determining factor in how fast you can transmit information
[22:55] <eroomde> likewise the signal strength decreases as you get further away, but the noise stays the same, so the signal to noise ratio decreases as the balloon gets further away
[22:55] <eroomde> until some point where you can't make sense of it any more
[22:55] <_Hix-Android> Ahh. Snr so slower and good data low Snr
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[22:58] <eroomde> slower = higher snr
[22:58] <eroomde> usually
[22:59] <eroomde> higher = better
[23:00] <_Hix-Android> Scratches head
[23:01] <_Hix-Android> So how does baud affect things assuming ok signal
[23:01] <eroomde> well, if the signal; is 'ok' that means that the SNR is good enough
[23:02] <eroomde> SNR is really just a number that you can give to how OK the signal is
[23:02] <eroomde> it's not so much a separate factor that affects the signal, it's more a number you can calcukate based on all the variables that do affect the signal
[23:02] <eroomde> that gives you an overall idea of wther or not you telemetry will work
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[23:03] <_Hix-Android> Ok, this radio mullarkey is full of elactictrickery
[23:04] <_Hix-Android> I'm not trying that word on phone again
[23:05] <eroomde> radio can be a bit of a black art yep
[23:06] <eroomde> lots of it will seem like witchcraft
[23:06] <gonzo_> nah, all simple really, if explained properly
[23:07] <_Hix-Android> Brain hurts, took me a few years to grasp ground effect aerodynamics on cars...
[23:07] <fsphil-laptop> he's a witch!
[23:07] <_Hix-Android> Still life is for learning
[23:07] <_Hix-Android> Burn him
[23:07] <eroomde> ground effect is actually a lot more complicated
[23:07] <eroomde> this is just more new than complicated
[23:07] <_Hix-Android> Oh, wait does he weigh mire than a duck
[23:08] <_Hix-Android> True, but new is normally good. Unless its a mini
[23:08] <gonzo_> witches are women, so sould lit be 'she's a witch, burn him' ?
[23:12] <_Hix-Android> Ah but is it not true that some women have beards
[23:14] <_Hix-Android> To be honest I need to learn how to speak to computers so they can pass it on to a compiler and report back "listen to zr silly English knigget"
[23:15] <_Hix-Android> Then how the things that hold magic smoke keep it all in
[23:15] <_Hix-Android> Making it survive a crash I think I'm down with
[23:17] <gonzo_> think we suffer more from software crashes that crash landings
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[23:18] <eroomde> yep
[23:19] <eroomde> with predeployed parachutes it makes hab basically just a software problem
[23:19] <eroomde> with a bit of electronics
[23:21] <gonzo_> anything with software is by essence, a software problem
[23:22] <_Hix-Android> :D
[23:23] <_Hix-Android> So should I pick up Tim's baton and run with no chute
[23:25] <_Hix-Android> Nag can't do that. Got fluoro Orange mil spec ripstop and a mum who sews like fangio drove
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[23:32] <jonsowman> Laurenceb: this stm32 f4 has two pin one indicators. in opposite corners. ideas?
[23:34] <SpeedEvil> Clearly it can sense which way it is installed, so either works.
[23:35] <jonsowman> hmm
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[00:00] --- Wed Feb 29 2012