highaltitude.log.20120214

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[00:09] <MLow-werk> wow this place died
[00:09] <Darkside> its like midnight in the UK
[00:09] <Darkside> 10:30am here :P
[00:09] <jakr> what is the mass of planet that you could reach terminal velocity by simply jumping upward?>
[00:10] <jakr> nono
[00:10] <Darkside> google it
[00:10] <jakr> escape velocty
[00:10] <Lunar_Lander> fsphil-laptop: still on this frequency?
[00:13] <Lunar_Lander> hi Darkside
[00:21] <fsphil-laptop> on 449mhz Lunar_Lander :)
[00:21] <Lunar_Lander> xD with BBC Ulster :P?
[00:21] <fsphil-laptop> nah, they play rubbish
[00:22] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[00:22] <fsphil-laptop> I've expanded the list a bit, http://spooky.sanslogic.co.uk/radio.php
[00:22] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[00:23] <Lunar_Lander> I want to have a woman
[00:23] <Lunar_Lander> like a wife or so you know
[00:24] <jakr> i just did the calculation
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[00:25] <jakr> someone will be able to jump at escape velocity on a planet
[00:25] <Lunar_Lander> like Phobos?
[00:25] <jakr> the mass of earth would have to be reduced
[00:26] <jakr> to 1.0752*10^17 kg
[00:26] <MLow-werk> i think at that point of such small mass it's considered an asteroid or something not a planet
[00:26] <MLow-werk> or sattalite
[00:26] <MLow-werk> satallite?
[00:26] <MLow-werk> irssi needs spellcheck
[00:26] <fsphil-laptop> satellite
[00:27] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[00:27] <Lunar_Lander> like Phobos
[00:27] <Lunar_Lander> or Deimos
[00:29] <MLow-werk> fff
[00:29] <MLow-werk> i was homeschooled :D
[00:29] <Lunar_Lander> fsphil-laptop: do you have a wife?
[00:30] <fsphil-laptop> nope
[00:30] <Lunar_Lander> ohh
[00:30] <Darkside> hehe
[00:31] <MLow-werk> i dont either
[00:31] <MLow-werk> in a 2 year long committed relationship though, so may as well be
[00:32] <MLow-werk> so ya, maybe ill email those byonics guys
[00:32] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[00:33] <Lunar_Lander> wives are important
[00:33] <Lunar_Lander> and Jessica will be the first female to do a HAB
[00:33] <Lunar_Lander> that will be cool
[00:33] <Darkside> first female?
[00:33] <Darkside> i'm pretty sure daveakes wife is involved a fair bit
[00:33] <Lunar_Lander> yeah first female project leader
[00:33] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[00:34] <MLow-werk> hm
[00:35] Action: MLow-werk persuades gf to lead my project
[00:35] <Lunar_Lander> :P
[00:35] <MLow-werk> shes the navigator :D
[00:35] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[00:35] <Lunar_Lander> yeah and maybe OZ1SKY will make the first Danish HAB
[00:35] <Lunar_Lander> if he wants to
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[00:42] <MLow-werk> im aiming for a $300 hab
[00:42] <MLow-werk> so i can prove it's accessible
[00:42] <fsphil-laptop> time to sleeeep
[00:42] <fsphil-laptop> night all
[00:42] <Lunar_Lander> good night
[00:43] <Lunar_Lander> good idea MLow-werk
[00:43] <MLow-werk> night fsphil-laptop
[00:43] <Lunar_Lander> MLow-werk: what should your balloon be able to do?
[00:44] <MLow-werk> take pictures and be trackable
[00:44] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[00:44] <Lunar_Lander> did you select a camera already?
[00:44] <MLow-werk> you could do an iDen phone for 50$ have a track
[00:44] <MLow-werk> $33 a560
[00:46] <MLow-werk> 560 is 7.1mp and does video in SD
[00:46] <MLow-werk> chdk script i made can do pictures and video at intervals
[00:47] <MLow-werk> going to find out soon if it can take sdhc cards for a 16gb one
[00:47] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[00:48] <Lunar_Lander> is CHDK difficult?
[00:48] <MLow-werk> nah
[00:48] <MLow-werk> it's pretty....BASIC
[00:48] <Lunar_Lander> that is good :)
[00:48] <MLow-werk> bad-dum-pshh
[00:48] <Darkside> MLow-werk: what a luad joke
[00:49] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[00:49] <Lunar_Lander> Darkside: how is horus going?
[00:49] <MLow-werk> how are you guys funded if you dont mind me asking
[00:49] <Darkside> uhmm
[00:49] <Darkside> a combination of self-funding and doing launches for other groups
[00:50] <Darkside> we've done launches for artists, yoyo companies, indie bands
[00:50] <Lunar_Lander> and TUX!
[00:51] <Darkside> yeah that
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[00:51] <MLow-werk> hm
[00:51] <MLow-werk> so kind of like a sponsorship deal but to do advertisement for them they fund it partially?
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[00:52] <Darkside> MLow-werk: uhmm
[00:52] <Darkside> kind of i guess
[00:52] <Darkside> i dont deal with that side of it
[00:52] <Lunar_Lander> Darkside: what about flying a pizza=
[00:53] <MLow-werk> well im kind of a one man show here
[00:53] <MLow-werk> so if i want funding i gotta ring up local businesses
[00:55] <Darkside> MLow-werk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3qYjzmgOdY&feature=share
[00:56] <Darkside> theres the yoyo launch
[00:56] <MLow-werk> cool im at work tho
[00:56] <MLow-werk> watch it later :D
[00:56] <MLow-werk> it's super slow though i am just kinda hanging around
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[01:15] <MLow-werk> shooting an email at byonics just cause
[01:17] <MLow-werk> well cause i know that radio module should do what i want
[01:21] <MLow-werk> heres hoping i can go home soon and work on my tracker program, going to get landing prediction integrated :D
[01:22] <MLow-werk> ohhh, i should buy a domain name for my blog
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[03:27] <MLow-werk> wish there were more US folk in here
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[04:49] <MLow-werk> /nick MLow
[04:49] <MLow-werk> wtf
[04:49] Nick change: MLow-werk -> MLow
[04:49] <MLow> there we go
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[05:35] <MLow> Just got an email back from Byonics dude
[05:41] <MLow> he said the old hx1 dont have a front end low pass filter, said to bias to 1/2 supply voltage and use a AC pass capacitor
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[08:21] <griffonbot> Received email: James Coxon "[UKHAS] Translation of Tracking Guide"
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[08:24] Nick change: daveake_ -> daveake
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[08:37] <griffonbot> Received email: John Graham-Cumming "Re: [UKHAS] Translation of Tracking Guide"
[08:43] <UpuWork> need to get Lunar to do a German version
[08:48] <costyn> Yea French, German, Polish would be useful. Scandinavians, Dutch, Belgians all pretty much all know English;
[08:55] <daveake> And Russian :)
[08:56] <x-f> i would like to support Lunar's suggestion about EUHAS
[08:57] <x-f> you're crossing borders! :)
[08:58] <Dan-K2VOL> x-f, I would like to suggest a broader term yet, perhaps IHAS?
[08:58] <Dan-K2VOL> :-)
[08:58] <x-f> that too
[08:59] <x-f> Dan, you're going to fly the GoPro on the transatlantic flight?
[08:59] <x-f> or that is for something else?
[08:59] <Dan-K2VOL> I sure am
[09:00] <x-f> ooh
[09:00] <Dan-K2VOL> one might say I'm putting my money on it making it :-P
[09:02] <Dan-K2VOL> We'll have remote on-off control
[09:02] <Dan-K2VOL> so we'll trigger it when it seems like it might be a good view
[09:04] <costyn> Dan-K2VOL: what places would you take pics?
[09:05] <Dan-K2VOL> hmm, that's such a fun thought
[09:05] <Hibby> Dan-K2VOL: watch out for the lens fogging
[09:05] <Dan-K2VOL> any tips on that hibby? going to be flying without the external case
[09:05] <Hibby> according to my kayaking buddies who have approximately 12 billion of the things, a layer of tinfoil on the inside of the case kills it
[09:05] <Hibby> at the back
[09:06] <Hibby> however, if you've not got the case, I don't think the fogging will be the major issue
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[09:06] <Dan-K2VOL> oh, the waterproof case just needs silica gel to fix that
[09:06] <Dan-K2VOL> going to run it without battery, to save weight, and power and control it through the ipod connector
[09:06] <Dan-K2VOL> I can't believe how easy it is
[09:06] <Dan-K2VOL> it's just damn expensive
[09:06] <UpuWork> I hate programmers
[09:06] <UpuWork> hi everyone
[09:07] <Dan-K2VOL> hi upuwork
[09:07] <daveake> Device programmers, or people who program? :p
[09:07] <UpuWork> jsut having an argument with some 2 bit crappy s/w company who seem to think its perfectly fine to tell our customers to turn of DEP on PC so their sh*tty software works
[09:07] <daveake> Ah.
[09:07] <daveake> In that case I concur :)
[09:07] <Hibby> Dan-K2VOL: interesting :)
[09:08] <UpuWork> not like DEP hasn't been around since 2004
[09:08] <UpuWork> </rant>
[09:08] <Dan-K2VOL> costyn, probably leave the cam on through launch, and turn on when going over US cities in the dark
[09:08] <UpuWork> that should make some interesting pics
[09:08] <UpuWork> when are you launching Dan-K2VOL ?
[09:08] <daveake> It's 'cos they no longer have anyone who understands the software they wrote a decade ago
[09:09] <Dan-K2VOL> then will turn it on for sunrise, some random peeks out in the day over the ocean
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[09:09] <costyn> Dan-K2VOL: ok, is there a gps going along? otherwise you could program points of interest where when it gets near it shoots some pics?
[09:09] <Dan-K2VOL> and definitely when coming close to landfall
[09:09] <Dan-K2VOL> UpuWork we're just a few weeks from being able to launch, will have to wait for the jet stream then
[09:10] <UpuWork> aiming for the UK ?
[09:10] <UpuWork> small target :)
[09:10] <costyn> UpuWork: EU as backup? :)
[09:10] <Dan-K2VOL> UK counts, but I'll take anything dry over there!
[09:10] <UpuWork> lol
[09:10] <UpuWork> got a cut down on it ?
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[09:11] <costyn> sounds like a situation where a stearable glider would be nice to get it down to a place you want :)
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[09:11] <Dan-K2VOL> costyn this payload has so much crap on it that doing logic like that is out of the range of possibility in the time we have - we're taking advantage of the two-way satellite link for commanding
[09:11] <costyn> Dan-K2VOL: ah ok :)
[09:11] <Dan-K2VOL> let us back on the ground do the thinking
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[09:11] <costyn> Dan-K2VOL: well if you have a working 2-way link already, indeed :)
[09:12] <Dan-K2VOL> yes, the Iridium 9602 satellite modem is very exciting and not too expensive
[09:12] <Dan-K2VOL> we've made an arduino shield for it
[09:13] <costyn> Operating Temperature Range -40ºC to + 85ºC
[09:13] <costyn> good... good :)
[09:13] <Dan-K2VOL> hehe, that'll for for daytime anyway
[09:13] <Dan-K2VOL> it's inside the box, it won't get below 40 in the electronics bay
[09:13] <Dan-K2VOL> the battery box will be kept over 20C though
[09:14] <UpuWork> so you can trigger a cut down remotely ?
[09:14] <Dan-K2VOL> have to keep that power available for sat txing
[09:14] <Dan-K2VOL> yes
[09:14] <UpuWork> awesome
[09:14] <costyn> Dan-K2VOL: do you need a lot of power for the iridium modem?
[09:14] <UpuWork> send it our way you have a number of recovery teams availble I suspect
[09:14] <Dan-K2VOL> hmm costyn, actually, the way we're doing it, not very
[09:14] <UpuWork> just be aware Jcoxon launched a SPOT recently which didn't cope too well with the cold
[09:15] <Dan-K2VOL> we needed a lot for the orbcomm modem, but Iridium has only 1.5A 5V 10ms pulse, vs 3A 16V 4 seconds pulse of orbcomm!
[09:15] <costyn> sounds reasonable
[09:15] <Dan-K2VOL> and with a 2.5F supercap, an arduino power regulator can supply
[09:15] <Dan-K2VOL> so we've got extra power now, and weight, orbcomm was heavy
[09:16] <Dan-K2VOL> which gives us room for the GoPro!
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[09:16] <Dan-K2VOL> I noticed James
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[09:16] <Dan-K2VOL> spot didn't survice
[09:17] <Dan-K2VOL> I'm curious if that's from the batteries voltage dropping or other electronics problem - did he cryo test the unit on a power supply?
[09:17] <UpuWork> not sure he thinks it was crystal that got cold and stopped comms
[09:17] <Dan-K2VOL> ahh
[09:18] <UpuWork> that said
[09:18] <UpuWork> I would have expected it to come back when it warmed up which it didn't
[09:19] <Dan-K2VOL> well, those have a soft power switch, and they don't power on when power is restored.
[09:19] <Dan-K2VOL> same problem with the Delorme InReach
[09:20] <Dan-K2VOL> I'm considering putting a findmespot on speedball-1 as backup, but really there's not much point in having a position-only backup, as the cutdown device will fire automatically if we lose comms
[09:24] <number10> what was the device you removed the 9602 from Dan-K2VOL ?
[09:24] <Dan-K2VOL> the Delorme InReach two-way satellite text messenger
[09:24] <daveake> Cheaper than buying the module?
[09:24] <Dan-K2VOL> also has a perfect little helical flex circuit antenna
[09:24] <Dan-K2VOL> yes, much
[09:25] <daveake> I checked. The module here is £328 plus tax
[09:25] <daveake> So over $500
[09:25] <Dan-K2VOL> holy moly!
[09:25] <Dan-K2VOL> yeah commonly listed for $400usd
[09:25] <daveake> I only got as far as 1 listing
[09:25] <Dan-K2VOL> the InReach goes for about $250usd
[09:26] <daveake> Much better, especially with the antenna :)
[09:26] <Dan-K2VOL> amazon sells it, as does delorme directly
[09:26] <Dan-K2VOL> yes!
[09:26] <daveake> OK, this makes it much more interesting :)
[09:27] <number10> I probably could have got a couple of 9602s for free
[09:28] <Dan-K2VOL> http://twitter.com/#!/LVL1WhiteStar/status/166316541938376705/photo/1 pic of the assembled 9602 arduino shield
[09:28] <Dan-K2VOL> plus delorme inreach antenna
[09:28] <Dan-K2VOL> number10, the connector setup on that isn't very amateur friendly, I'll tell you that
[09:28] <UpuWork> what are you using for cut down Dan-K2VOL ?
[09:29] <Dan-K2VOL> I destroyed a 9602 last night trying to get the socket soldered onto a pcb :-(
[09:29] <number10> I dont think we designed it for amatuer use Dan-K2VOL ;)
[09:29] <daveake> OK, that's 2 hints so far number10 .......
[09:29] <Dan-K2VOL> upuwork, nichrome rope cutter, inside the electronics bay
[09:29] <UpuWork> got a design for it ?
[09:30] Action: daveake pokes number10 with sharp stick
[09:30] <UpuWork> never had much sucess with Nichrome
[09:30] <Dan-K2VOL> heh number10 indeed, though I still like it lots
[09:30] <number10> we designed it at cambridge consultants
[09:30] <daveake> :)
[09:31] <Dan-K2VOL> Upu, have had 100% reliability with the cutdown designed by Carl Lyster, WA4ADG of the Spirit of Knoxville program
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[09:31] <Dan-K2VOL> have a video I'm trying to find
[09:31] <number10> the cto is on my linkedin contacts - but he has now gone to a competitor
[09:31] <UpuWork> is it an open design ?
[09:31] <UpuWork> I see videos
[09:31] <number10> not open - but oems can integrate it into a product
[09:33] <Dan-K2VOL> here's an overview clip of the cutter working: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35gGb5AWCkw&list=UU0Re_WINAzQNJXDaI68xEYw&index=32&feature=plcp
[09:33] <Dan-K2VOL> and a closeup of it working at 40C in the cryogenic chamber http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nh39Dwq8CqM&feature=autoplay&list=UU0Re_WINAzQNJXDaI68xEYw&lf=plcp&playnext=1
[09:34] <Dan-K2VOL> number10 what was the design impetus
[09:35] <costyn> Dan-K2VOL: says the video is private :(
[09:35] <costyn> (last one)
[09:35] <Dan-K2VOL> that's very odd
[09:35] <Dan-K2VOL> ok
[09:35] <Dan-K2VOL> I'll check
[09:35] <number10> I am not too sure I can talk about it in open forum Dan-K2VOL more than what is on the company website
[09:35] <Dan-K2VOL> oh no problem
[09:36] <Dan-K2VOL> what do you specialize in number10? are you in RF?
[09:36] <Dan-K2VOL> try this time: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o7N4aEbFfU&list=UU0Re_WINAzQNJXDaI68xEYw&index=7&feature=plcp
[09:37] <costyn> works, thanks
[09:37] <Dan-K2VOL> that's being heated by 4xAA energizer lithiums
[09:37] <Dan-K2VOL> which are at 20C
[09:38] <number10> test systems - protocols L2 and L3 stuff, not RF stuff Dan-K2VOL
[09:38] <Dan-K2VOL> and the jug is pulling up with the proper 6kg force
[09:38] <Dan-K2VOL> erm, not 6kg, 2.3kg I think
[09:39] <Dan-K2VOL> gotcha number10, the data side
[09:40] <Dan-K2VOL> anyone have any experience in doing microwave antenna design?
[09:40] <costyn> http://www.flickr.com/photos/48225359@N03/6400189615/in/pool-1578126@N22/ pic of the cutter
[09:41] <Dan-K2VOL> ah good googling there costyn
[09:41] <Dan-K2VOL> much better view
[09:41] <costyn> and in huge: http://www.flickr.com/photos/48225359@N03/6400189615/sizes/o/in/pool-1578126@N22/
[09:41] <Dan-K2VOL> we're using it with a serial command interface in addition to the timer
[09:42] <Dan-K2VOL> simple you can see, the reliability I think comes from the rope going through the brackets, and the wire coils not being too tight on the rope
[09:43] <costyn> Dan-K2VOL: the rope is just going through the pcb and brackets right? the pcb is not carrying any load right?
[09:43] <Dan-K2VOL> correct
[09:44] <Dan-K2VOL> it's hard to see in that photo, but there's two ropes, both are tied to the bottom bracket
[09:45] <costyn> yea just looking at that, so the bottom bracket is transferring load from one rope to the other
[09:45] <costyn> is there a reason for that?
[09:46] <costyn> why not just let the rope pass as 1 rope through the cutdown pcb?
[09:46] <Dan-K2VOL> you could, if you tied a knot in it through the bracket on the bottom
[09:47] <Dan-K2VOL> actually for SpeedBall, the cutdown is hard mounted to the payload frame horizontally
[09:48] <MLow> thats a pretty cool cutdown pcb
[09:48] <Dan-K2VOL> and the rope enters the box and bends 90 degrees horizontally through the cutdown bracket, nichrome, then bracket, then 90 degrees back up out of the box to the balloon again, forming a U
[09:48] <gonzo_> anyone experimented with a pyro cutdown?
[09:48] <MLow> i bet that thing gets hot with such short nichrome
[09:48] <Dan-K2VOL> ctlyster@comcast.net Carl Lyster makes them, he's a very friendly chap who's happy to customize them for you for small cost
[09:49] <Dan-K2VOL> sure does MLow, nearly white hot at room temp
[09:49] <Dan-K2VOL> 3amps @ 6V
[09:49] <costyn> Dan-K2VOL: cool, thanks for the details :)
[09:49] <MLow> dear lord
[09:49] <MLow> what kind of source?
[09:49] <Dan-K2VOL> 4xAA energizer ultimate lithium batteries
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[09:50] <MLow> how is the chute connected to the payload?
[09:50] <Dan-K2VOL> ah.
[09:50] <Dan-K2VOL> you see,
[09:50] <Dan-K2VOL> the balloon, so to speak, is the chute.
[09:50] <MLow> hm
[09:50] <MLow> does that work well for you guys?
[09:51] <Dan-K2VOL> and when you cut the two support ropes from the bottom of the balloon, the payload falls
[09:51] <UpuWork> looks good Dan thanks for pics
[09:51] <Dan-K2VOL> until the rope tightens that is connected to the top of the balloon
[09:51] <MLow> couldnt you do a knot with a kinda s curved rope
[09:51] <Dan-K2VOL> which yanks the whole 8m tall plastic bag upside down
[09:51] <Dan-K2VOL> and allows the helium to dump out the valve
[09:51] <costyn> interesting
[09:52] <Dan-K2VOL> it works marvelously, we've tested it in flight
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[09:52] <MLow> i salvaged some nichrome from a toaster, im cheap
[09:52] <daveake> Nicrhome is cheap anyway :)
[09:52] Action: costyn has an unused toaster in his garden shed... some use for it after all
[09:53] <Dan-K2VOL> leaves a few cubic meters of helium in when the vent spring finally closes, results in about a 1.5 m/s descent
[09:53] <MLow> ive had this idea about a cutdown that i have yet to try
[09:53] <daveake> Dan-K2VOL No chute at all? What if the ballon bursts?
[09:54] <Dan-K2VOL> the balloon is 2 mil thick polyethylene, about 3m diameter by 10m tall, if it's empty of all helium, it won't allow more than about 4m/s descent, due to the turbulent drag
[09:55] <daveake> Ah, understood
[09:56] <daveake> Now I understand about the "tying to the top of the balloon" bit too :)
[09:56] <Dan-K2VOL> :-) it's an arragnement that was the result of trying to solve many problems
[09:58] <Dan-K2VOL> We needed: no payload spinning, get rid of parachute weight, and terminate the flight of the balloon envelope when we cut down
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[10:03] <Dan-K2VOL> MLow what's your cutdown plan
[10:05] <MLow> good question
[10:06] <MLow> maybe a picture explains it best
[10:07] <MLow> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12996303/hab%20pics/cutdownplan.png
[10:07] <Dan-K2VOL> ah I see, sure
[10:07] <UpuWork> hope the rubber band is rated to -40
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[10:08] <Dan-K2VOL> where are you based MLow?
[10:08] <MLow> texas
[10:08] <MLow> Well it's just an idea I had, not going to do a cutdown on first launch
[10:08] <Dan-K2VOL> heh, a bit late for you and me MLow isn't it?
[10:08] <MLow> a bit
[10:08] <Dan-K2VOL> heh
[10:08] <fsphil> morning! :p
[10:08] <Dan-K2VOL> Morning phil
[10:08] <eroomde> that looks a bit dodge to me
[10:08] <Dan-K2VOL> hehe, a good learning experiment though
[10:08] <UpuWork> morning Ed
[10:09] <eroomde> if the cutdown fails and the balloon bursts, you'll have the balloon line and balloon fragments being held very close to the parachute and possible preventing it from inflating fully
[10:09] <eroomde> morning UpuWork
[10:11] <fsphil> nice to see you so far along Dan-K2VOL
[10:11] <fsphil> looking forward to the launch!
[10:12] <MLow> okay how about a section of pvc with the nichrome in it wrapped around the rope, wires extend down to the payload
[10:12] <MLow> idea being pvc would protect against melting of the chute and line
[10:18] <number10> any goodies turned up daveake?... apologies for not responding earlier - someone was in room
[10:19] <daveake> Not yet :-(. Just 1200 LEDs from Farnell. I'll enjoy soldering those later .... (no, not to a payload!)
[10:19] <costyn> daveake: pffff
[10:19] <eroomde> ACHTUNG - ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS
[10:20] <Dan-K2VOL> thanks fsphil! :-)
[10:20] <eroomde> relaxen und watchen das blinkenlights.
[10:20] <daveake> lol
[10:24] <number10> you should do the german fldigi guide, in addition to that french one you did yesterday eroomde
[10:25] <eroomde> hell yeah
[10:26] <Upu> that Lunar Landers job
[10:26] <Upu> thats
[10:26] <daveake> That's
[10:27] <eroomde> bas ballooten is floaten uber alles der mounten und planesen.
[10:27] <eroomde> das*
[10:27] <Upu> I'm from Yorkshire, English is my second language
[10:27] <natrium42> rofl
[10:27] <daveake> true Upu lol
[10:27] <natrium42> das nunstuck git slotermeyer!
[10:27] <Upu> das Hwyoee balloon notton poppen properely
[10:28] <daveake> lol
[10:28] <eroomde> de displayen is dumpkofen? pressen 'Rv'.
[10:28] <eroomde> das ist all
[10:28] <number10> eds french fldigi guide from yesterday -> <eroomde> c'est superbe, le fl-digique, quoi?
[10:28] <Upu> for years my Dad had me believe german for windscreen wipers was Flippen De Flappen De Mucken De Schpredder
[10:29] <natrium42> sounds plausible
[10:29] <Upu> plausable to a 9 year old
[10:30] <eroomde> de latex ist nicht fer fingerpoken
[10:30] <daveake> Shame you were 29 when the penny dropped
[10:30] <number10> lol, dont tell him about father christmas please
[10:31] <natrium42> eroomde: do russian next!
[10:31] <daveake> Das payload is diggen by experten only
[10:35] <costyn> hehe
[10:36] <natrium42> eroomde: russians don't really write instructions, eh? :P
[10:36] <costyn> natrium42: for proper ruski translateski you ghav to ghear it out loud, da?
[10:37] <natrium42> It's a diagram with the tools required: hammer, iron bar
[10:37] <costyn> natrium42: don't forget the sickle
[10:37] <natrium42> yes, to clear away launch field
[10:38] <costyn> yes, not for old stereotypes at all!
[10:38] <natrium42> actually, suck it, costyn
[10:38] <natrium42> http://englishrussia.com/2011/06/21/launch-of-a-handmade-aircraft/
[10:39] <costyn> natrium42: awesome
[10:39] <Dan-K2VOL> hi alexei
[10:40] <eroomde> natrium42: the russian guide to fldigi: I SOVIT /USSIA,  DCODS $U!
[10:40] <natrium42> yo dan, my main man
[10:40] <costyn> eroomde: hehehehe
[10:41] <natrium42> IF FOUND, MAIL KREMLIN, RUSSIA
[10:41] <costyn> natrium42: using a BASE pilot chute I see
[10:42] <griffonbot> Received email: Solar Balloonman "[UKHAS] Re: launching in UK"
[10:42] <costyn> interesting, laser range finder for nearby clouds; not sure what the useful data is though
[10:45] <eroomde> lol at the latest email
[10:45] <eroomde> hey, i hear you're launching
[10:45] <eroomde> can you launch mine too?
[10:45] <eroomde> i can't give it to you so i need you to pick it up
[10:46] <eroomde> also i need it to be cutdown at a specific height
[10:46] <eroomde> also i want a unicorn and to be served steak before you pick me up
[10:46] <eroomde> also, fairies
[10:46] <natrium42> rofl
[10:46] <daveake> Bit of a step up from bacon butties
[10:46] <Dan-K2VOL> and don't forget jpegs downlinked at 30fps over the NTX2
[10:47] <costyn> eroomde: lol
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[10:47] <natrium42> Dan-K2VOL: somebody tried to do that?!
[10:48] <Dan-K2VOL> hahaha just kidding natrium42
[10:48] <eroomde> no but srsly
[10:48] <eroomde> i need it
[10:48] <eroomde> for my payload that you just agreed to fly
[10:48] <eroomde> tacitly
[10:48] <gonzo_> 1/30th fps goes though
[10:48] <Dan-K2VOL> haha
[10:48] <eroomde> also to save you asking, medium rare
[10:48] <costyn> eroomde: hehe
[10:49] <costyn> eroomde: and the unicorn has to be pink right
[10:49] <daveake> fresh out of unicorn
[10:49] <Darkside> thinkgeek sells it
[10:49] <gonzo_> a fairy unicorn then?
[10:51] <griffonbot> Received email: Jon Sowman "Re: [UKHAS] Re: launching in UK"
[10:51] <natrium42> costyn: would YOU go for anything less?
[10:51] <costyn> natrium42: well, no
[10:51] <eroomde> unicorn sounds a bit like something monsanto would sell
[10:51] <Dan-K2VOL> haha
[10:53] <gonzo_> unicorn steaks?
[10:53] <gonzo_> btw, bit of general advice on choosing release sites required...
[10:53] <gonzo_> If there are existing notams for an area (airways etc), would that result in a notam being declined?
[10:53] <costyn> medium rare pink unicorn steaks?
[10:53] <gonzo_> still horse, whatever the name!
[10:54] <gonzo_> but you get 4 drumstick and wings!
[10:55] <eroomde> gonzo_: not sure
[10:55] Action: SpeedEvil ponders silly solution to insulation.
[10:55] <eroomde> not strictly, i don't think
[10:55] <SpeedEvil> Wrap-around conservatory.
[10:55] <eroomde> depends on what the notam is for
[10:55] <costyn> SpeedEvil: bubblewrap
[10:55] <eroomde> military exercises and kite festivals can both get notams but they would be treated differently
[10:56] <SpeedEvil> costyn: Tempting
[10:56] <SpeedEvil> costyn: If I could get opaque grey bubble-wrap, it would sort-of-match harling.
[10:56] <daveake> Only time I've been refused one was for the weekend that the Farford Air Show was on. Planes to/drom there often fly past us.
[10:56] <daveake> Fairford
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[11:00] <gonzo_> ta dave. Just looking at future sites, but all seem to have lots of permanent notams. most of the .mil ones seem to have the weekends off. But it's the airways that get in the way.
[11:03] <fsphil> Dan-K2VOL, you could maybe squeeze about 1 fps out of jpeg at 300 baud. if you drop all the headers, and have a nearly completely blank 16x16 image :)
[11:04] <SpeedEvil> Just pick a boring part of the country.
[11:04] <SpeedEvil> Some parts don't really need more than 16*16.
[11:04] <Dan-K2VOL> haha fsphil
[11:04] <fsphil> lol
[11:04] <Dan-K2VOL> speedevil
[11:04] <Dan-K2VOL> nice
[11:05] <fsphil> "We've landed in Brighton!" "What does it look like?" "uuumm.... yea"
[11:05] <daveake> The first 30 pics I looked at from my last launch wouldn't have needed 16x16 between them
[11:05] <daveake> After that I found some good ones :)
[11:06] <fsphil> with a good gain antenna you could do NBTV over an ntx2
[11:06] <fsphil> but I've not found a camera suitable for it
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[11:08] <miloslj> hi, I nead help width making balloon
[11:08] <miloslj> can anybody help me?
[11:08] <Dan-K2VOL> good morning all, I'm going to bed finally, got the final (hopefully) white star parts order into digikey and sparkfun
[11:09] <costyn> miloslj: anything specific you need help on?
[11:09] <fsphil> night/morning Dan-K2VOL
[11:09] <Dan-K2VOL> we have teams of rubber people, and teams of neck forming people, and spherical quality control checkers, so take your pick
[11:10] <miloslj> yes, width gps, can I put gps reciver width sim card, and he send me koordinates on my mobile?
[11:10] <costyn> rubber people... that sounds interesting
[11:10] <Dan-K2VOL> just kidding miloslj, this is a great place to come for help with your balloon questions
[11:10] <natrium42> dan is the henry ford of ballooning
[11:10] <fsphil> now there's an idea. homebrew balloons
[11:10] <natrium42> :D
[11:10] <costyn> miloslj: yes, that will work, but not after balloon goes above about 3km, but after it lands it might send you smses again
[11:11] <Dan-K2VOL> :-P thanks Natrium42, I suppose I have fairly beaten the process into an assembly line as far as volunteers will stand
[11:11] <costyn> miloslj: GSM does not work above certain altitude
[11:12] <miloslj> ok, I know that
[11:13] <miloslj> what would be best to use?
[11:13] <costyn> miloslj: also, the GPS/SMS trackers are not always reliable. If your payload lands upside down it might not get a GPS lock or lands in a remote area it migh not have gsm coverage
[11:14] <Dan-K2VOL> heck they're cheap, put one on the bottom side too
[11:14] <Dan-K2VOL> lol
[11:14] <Dan-K2VOL> sorry I'm going to bed, my humor gets out of control when I'm this tired!
[11:15] <costyn> heh
[11:15] <miloslj> :)
[11:15] <miloslj> what would be best to use?
[11:16] <costyn> miloslj: something like this: http://dx.com/handheld-portable-mini-gsm-gprs-gps-vehicle-tracker-black-72133
[11:16] <costyn> miloslj: but not sure it would be 'best'
[11:18] <costyn> miloslj: there are many different brands
[11:18] <costyn> miloslj: http://s.dx.com/search/gps+gsm
[11:18] <cuddykid> morning
[11:18] <cuddykid> is there anyway to disable the cocom limits all together on the ubloxs?
[11:18] <cuddykid> e.g. custom firmware
[11:18] <SpeedEvil> In principle, yes.
[11:18] <cuddykid> I guess it's a hard task
[11:18] <SpeedEvil> I wonder what the legalities of launching a delimited module out of UK airspace is.
[11:19] <SpeedEvil> cuddykid: I suspect possibly not.
[11:19] <gonzo_> have seen some quite light ones
[11:19] <gonzo_> (gsm/gps trackers that is)
[11:19] <cuddykid> I think GPS modules without cocom limits are still available on ebay say?
[11:19] <SpeedEvil> Find the COCOM limit, change it from AND to NEVER
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[11:21] <costyn> SpeedEvil: wouldn't it being easy to remove from the code defeat the purpose? Anyone building an ICBM would have enough know-how to remove it then too
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[11:22] <Dan-K2VOL> well, the restriction is not correctly applied to match the law anyway
[11:23] <eroomde> anyone who can build an icbm would have zero trouble building a gps from scratch
[11:23] <Dan-K2VOL> haha
[11:23] <costyn> eroomde: probably yes
[11:24] <eroomde> not even probably!
[11:24] <eroomde> it's all stuff an undergrad EE can understand
[11:25] <gonzo_> ah yes, but bnot for an administrator who comes up with the laws
[11:25] <eroomde> that's always the way huh
[11:25] <eroomde> ITAR seems pointless
[11:25] <miloslj> constyn: thanks
[11:25] <eroomde> more harm than good
[11:25] <russss> I'd like to thing that these export restrictions are going to be removed soon
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[11:25] <russss> but they probably won't.
[11:26] <gonzo_> the AMSAT community have been hit badly by that
[11:26] <eroomde> i'm sure commercial pressure will win out eventually
[11:26] <gonzo_> as satellites are classed as a munition
[11:26] <russss> ITAR is poisonous to commercial spaceflight
[11:27] <eroomde> but for now there's always the threat or trrrists building nooculer weapons
[11:27] <gonzo_> worse to amateur projects, as the whole system of admin is based around big industry
[11:27] <eroomde> threat of*
[11:27] <russss> yeah terrorists building ICBMs is clearly a massive threat...
[11:27] <gonzo_> amateur stuff does not fit their legislation
[11:28] <gonzo_> also spills over to other hobbies
[11:28] <gonzo_> try and order a replacement spring from the US for your shotgun
[11:30] <miloslj> whether this is all we need to track the balloon?
[11:32] <cuddykid> yeah, but that would be munching through binary or machine code?
[11:32] <SpeedEvil> Well - yes
[11:32] <SpeedEvil> You can also of course DIY
[11:32] <SpeedEvil> pay Laurenceb 10K to develop you a COCOM free GPS.
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[11:32] <UpuWork> kaboom
[11:32] <eroomde> :)
[11:32] <eroomde> quiet in here now
[11:32] <daveake> Someone mentioned munitions
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[11:32] <daveake> See I did it again
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[11:33] <cuddykid> they're back
[11:33] <cuddykid> lol
[11:33] <UpuWork> needs moar join/split spam
[11:33] <Darkside> lol
[11:33] <daveake> less unicorn more spam
[11:33] <UpuWork> Yeah read that mail
[11:33] <cuddykid> daveake: for a moment - I was thinking, how am I going to solve my problems without daveake!
[11:34] <Darkside> http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=canned%20unicorn%20meat&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CCMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thinkgeek.com%2Fcaffeine%2Fwacky-edibles%2Fe5a7%2F&ei=rkY6T5bMIMeaiAfu9On_CQ&usg=AFQjCNH3FLrw6mPYpNv5CtvCFq49PefERw
[11:34] <Darkside> fucking google
[11:34] <daveake> Ah, you'll manage fine when I'm gone :)
[11:34] <Darkside> hah
[11:34] <Darkside> so yeah, evenin gall
[11:34] <Darkside> evening all, rather
[11:35] <eroomde> in sickness, and in health, and even in gall
[11:35] <Darkside> yup
[11:35] <cuddykid> I'm guessing no spot update?
[11:35] <UpuWork> negative
[11:35] <cuddykid> :(
[11:35] <Darkside> i am drinking delicious chocolate oatmeal stout
[11:35] <UpuWork> still got the page ipen
[11:35] <cuddykid> still floating?! - can only hope..
[11:36] <costyn> miloslj: most people on here have their payload send live updates of the location using a small radio ; on the ground you use a sensitive receiver to receive and decode the packets
[11:37] <costyn> miloslj: it seems to be the most reliable method, but it is a lot of work and complicated and requires knowledge of electronics, programming, radio and such
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[11:39] <miloslj> costyn: why do we call this device does not send clear coordinates where currently located, in this case the bubble?
[11:39] <costyn> miloslj: I'm sorry I don't understand your question
[11:42] <MLow> WOW I FROZE EXPLORER
[11:42] <daveake> WOW I DISCOVERED CAPS LOCK :p
[11:43] <MLow> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12996303/hab%20pics/cutdownplan2.png
[11:43] <MLow> sorry haha
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[11:43] <costyn> MLow: is the cutter above the parachute?
[11:44] <cuddykid> MLow: that's exactly what I tried a few weekends ago
[11:44] <Darkside> your problem will be getting enough amps through the nichrome wire
[11:44] <MLow> its a tube of pvc with screews holding the wire and rope away from the edges
[11:44] <cuddykid> wire up to cutdown fell down right before launch, weight of wire broke the solder joint at the top
[11:45] <cuddykid> also - it tangled hugely
[11:45] <cuddykid> but, go for it
[11:45] <MLow> would some zip ties help
[11:45] <MLow> or heat shrink
[11:45] <cuddykid> MLow: be sure to wrap the wire around the cutdown modules (above chute) once or twice
[11:46] <cuddykid> so that takes the weight rather than solder joints or whatever
[11:46] <MLow> twisting could be a problem
[11:46] <MLow> ive seen those things spin like crazy
[11:47] <MLow> this whole thing is nuts
[11:47] <MLow> cutdowns seem overrated
[11:48] <cuddykid> yes, I agree
[11:49] <cuddykid> it does twist hugely and when the balloon bursts it gets tangled up with chute
[11:49] <costyn> MLow: yes agreed, the predictor is good enough to let you konw where it's going. just don't launch if you don't like the direction (gulf of mexico for example)
[11:49] <cuddykid> If I'm to do it again, I'm going to use a cheap RF link (does away with the wire)
[11:49] <MLow> we should stop calling it that
[11:50] <MLow> since when did mexico claim it...lets just call it the gulf of america
[11:50] <MLow> hm
[11:51] <MLow> no one?
[11:51] <cuddykid> yes, sounds good
[11:52] <MLow> alright then
[11:52] <MLow> were agreed
[11:53] <x-f> the problem is, when the balloon appears not to be filled with the desired amount of gas
[11:53] <MLow> get more gas in it?
[11:53] <x-f> for example, when measuring neck lift in windy conditions
[11:54] <costyn> cuddykid: you still have to power your cutter though?
[11:54] <x-f> MLow, then you can't rely on the predictor
[11:54] <cuddykid> costyn: cutter had it's own 2AA power supply, but couldn't be activated because the control wires had gone
[11:55] <MLow> i guess you could mount a small controller and supply in the cutter, have it mounted up there on the rope
[11:56] <costyn> cuddykid: aah :)
[11:57] <cuddykid> yeah, it was activated by mosfet
[11:57] <cuddykid> daveake's mosfet :)
[11:58] <daveake> :-)
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[11:59] <daveake> Jeez ... guy wants to dig out a basement, so he spends 15 years doing this with R/C moving equipment - http://www.scale4x4rc.org/forums/showthread.php?t=25724
[11:59] <daveake> Life <--- get
[12:00] <costyn> daveake: that guy has no life and no wife I'm guessing
[12:01] <cuddykid> lol daveake
[12:01] <daveake> Indeed. And I'm kinda guessing he doesn't really need the basement dug - it's just an excuse
[12:01] <costyn> yup
[12:01] <fsphil> needs somewhere for his stamp collection
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[12:02] <daveake> I need somewhere for my HAB payload collection, but that's a step too far :)
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[12:04] <Laurenceb> haha thats epic
[12:04] <x-f> MLow, daveake had an interesting and seems-to-be-reliable cutdown system for his Buzz payload - http://bit.ly/wOSbv4
[12:05] <costyn> the only problem is spinning balloon and/or payload right?
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[12:06] <daveake> "seems to be reliable" might be stretching it, as it only triggered the once and that was in the back of my car :D
[12:06] <daveake> Yes, it could well get twisted and no it hasn't been tested during a flight
[12:07] <x-f> swivels could help with spinning
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[12:08] <x-f> maybe a parachute ring too
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[12:08] <costyn> yea something small even from a keycord perhaps http://www.rei.com/zoom/t/1072559.jpg/440
[12:08] <daveake> Well you can put a swivel above that top ring, which should help
[12:08] <costyn> although that one isn't small
[12:09] <daveake> Fishing tackle shops sell really really small swivels
[12:09] <costyn> http://www.monkeyknuts.com/34mm-swivel-clip-nickel.jpg commonly found on keycords
[12:10] <Laurenceb> its going to tangle
[12:10] <daveake> Yep
[12:10] <daveake> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/50-x-Diamond-Eye-Rolling-Swivels-10-sizes-1-75p-20s-100s-/290669899199?pt=UK_SportingGoods_FishingAcces_RL&var=&hash=item89620d53c5#ht_500wt_1180
[12:10] <Laurenceb> i used a pole to support the cute on some flights
[12:10] <daveake> I've not bothered with a cutdown since
[12:10] <costyn> daveake: how much weight can they take?
[12:11] <cuddykid> tangling here is the biggest problem
[12:11] <daveake> Depends on the size. Only ones I've flown are larger brass ones, and "lots" is the answer
[12:11] <Laurenceb> hollow pole with cutdown line down the middle
[12:11] <Laurenceb> alternatively just have the cutdown on a cable
[12:11] <cuddykid> and also keeping hold of the cutdown module once fired - don't want it hurtling towards earth
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[12:13] <daveake> If the reason for using a cutdown is to avoid the balloon remains tangling round the chute lines, then maybe adding a small second chute near to the balloon would be a better option
[12:14] <costyn> daveake: or use a chute with mesh instead of lines
[12:14] <daveake> Also, the flights where I've had tangles, the chute has been quite large for the payload. This means the payload will fall slowly, and might mean the balloon can then catch up with it.
[12:15] <daveake> Last flight I used a small chute, in the hope of avoiding a sea landing (like that worked out!) and no tangles at all
[12:15] <costyn> daveake: what diameter?
[12:16] <daveake> 30" fabric (24" when open); circa 900g payload
[12:17] <daveake> Descent rate was just fine (about 6m/s near the end, I think)
[12:17] <daveake> Of course I wanted it to be faster :D
[12:18] <daveake> First flight had a 48" chute and 1kg payload, and that tangled horribly
[12:20] <costyn> daveake: thx
[12:22] <daveake> Actually I'll check those numbers ... think it was 36" and 20". I'll let you know later
[12:24] <cuddykid> daveake: has your proto-pic stuff arrived?
[12:24] <daveake> No, post comes lsoon
[12:24] <cuddykid> the post here varies, I'll pop down in a bit and see :D
[12:25] <daveake> "lsoon" = "changed from later to soon"
[12:25] <costyn> do you guys order your uberfloat9000's straight from hwoyee.com ?
[12:26] <daveake> rocketboy
[12:27] <daveake> soon --> now :)
[12:28] <cuddykid> ooo :)
[12:28] <daveake> cool, all bits here, including actual rfm22bs, not bluetooth modules
[12:30] <cuddykid> mine should arrive today then :D
[12:30] <cuddykid> yay
[12:30] <daveake> LOL The "UK via China" DS18B20s arrived
[12:30] <cuddykid> UpuWork: for the ISP 6 pin programmer, is it ok to use 3V3 rather than 5V (as stated on footprint)
[12:31] <cuddykid> lol daveake
[12:31] <costyn> daveake: hehe
[12:31] <daveake> Underneath the "Royal Mail" sticker is .... "Par Avion"
[12:31] <cuddykid> rofl
[12:32] <daveake> Free since they refunded
[12:32] <costyn> daveake: how many did you get?
[12:32] <daveake> 10
[12:32] <fsphil> cuddykid, the VCC pin on the ISP header should be wired to whatever supply the AVR is powered from
[12:33] <cuddykid> ahh ok fsphil, so it's ok to run off 3V3 (same as atmega)?
[12:34] <fsphil> you have to yea
[12:36] <cuddykid> right, I'm going to run with 2 board - 1 for standard hab stuff then another for use in a rockoon, the rockoon one will have rfm22b
[12:37] <cuddykid> is there anyway to set the size of the board to be 5cm x 5cm exactly in eagle?
[12:37] <MLow> i forgot my callsign regex
[12:37] <MLow> lol
[12:49] <miloslj> how to calculate how big balloon I nead?
[12:49] <daveake> http://www.cusf.co.uk/calc/
[12:50] <daveake> Enter your payload weight, set the ascent rate to 5m/s, then try different balloon sizes
[12:50] <daveake> What payload weight, roughly?
[12:52] <miloslj> not more than two kilos
[12:52] <Laurenceb> http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1594501
[12:52] <daveake> OK, that's fairly heavy. A 1600g Hwoyee probably then.
[12:53] <daveake> Depends how high you want to go
[12:54] <costyn> daveake: the cusf calculator should include an extra 'risk of float' indicator when using low ascent rates and a hwoyee :)
[12:54] <daveake> :)
[12:54] <costyn> but anything under 3 is a float risk right
[12:54] <daveake> Probably depends on the balloon size
[12:56] <cuddykid> apparently the rocket engine the guy wants to use exerts 675N of force - and on the ground gets up to 1000mph& eek
[12:56] <miloslj> 33000m
[12:58] <Darkside> cuddykid: and where are you planning on launching this?
[12:58] <Darkside> i doubt many aviation authorities would approve
[12:59] <cuddykid> Darkside: uk lol
[12:59] <Darkside> yeah
[12:59] <Darkside> thats going to happen
[12:59] <Darkside> hire a boat and get to international waters first
[12:59] <cuddykid> it's allowed on the ground
[12:59] <Darkside> yeah but you're firing a rocket
[12:59] <Darkside> that could quite possible fire DOWN
[13:00] <cuddykid> lol
[13:00] <cuddykid> I would just fly it when predictions have it firing over the sea or something
[13:00] <gonzo_> and a lot of explosive to be floating up and into the engine of a 747
[13:01] <fsphil> wait until I get my shelter built please
[13:01] <cuddykid> lol - it's a while off yet anyway
[13:01] <daveake> and don't used R/C models to build that shelter ...
[13:01] <daveake> *use
[13:03] <cuddykid> haha
[13:03] <cuddykid> no postie yet :(
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[13:03] <costyn> how do you guys measure neck lift without tying off the balloon neck? (in case it needs extra filling?)
[13:04] <Darkside> by knowing the weight of the filling apparatus
[13:04] <daveake> Cable tie the weight to the filler. Weight is target neck lift minus weight of filler
[13:05] <costyn> daveake: got it thx
[13:06] <daveake> And do this *before* you think you've filled enough. Not easy to get the gas back out :D
[13:09] <costyn> heh ok
[13:10] <costyn> weird idea, you'd think it would come rushing out as with a regular party balloon, but of course the differential pressure is none and the helium only wants to go up
[13:10] <costyn> (right?)
[13:10] <daveake> yes, very little pressure
[13:10] <fsphil> there is some pressure
[13:11] <daveake> I got this wrong on Buzz2. Looked "about right" but had ~200g more lift than I wanted.
[13:11] <fsphil> the weight of the latex at first, then a bit more as the latex stretches
[13:11] <zyp> when we did a sounding balloon launch in space tech school they just had weights tied to the filling apparatus, since every balloon were filled to the exact same lift, they then just filled it until the weights were weightless
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[13:13] <fsphil> I use a bottle of water with the weight matching the neck lift
[13:13] <daveake> ditto
[13:14] <fsphil> not good on a windy day though!
[13:15] <fsphil> as I learned on my last flight
[13:15] <daveake> Just like my 2nd than :p
[13:15] miloslj (~milosljat@cable-188-2-28-35.dynamic.sbb.rs) left irc:
[13:15] <daveake> Same result
[13:15] <zyp> we filled the balloon indoors before carrying it out to launch it
[13:15] <daveake> I don't have an indoors big enough
[13:16] <fsphil> yea - I launch in a car park :)
[13:16] <zyp> space tech school cooperated with the local rocket range, so we used the rocket range's balloon facilities
[13:16] <LazyLeopard> the catch is usually the door between in and out... ;)
[13:16] <daveake> yep
[13:17] <zyp> so I'm talking about a house built for balloon launches
[13:17] <costyn> zyp: that's some dedication
[13:18] Action: daveake updated "The 6 stages of HAB Expenditure"
[13:18] <daveake> *updates
[13:18] <daveake> That's a 7th stage right there
[13:18] <zyp> it's a rocket range after all, they launch a fair amount of balloons to profile the weather any before any rocket launch
[13:18] <zyp> -any
[13:19] <Darkside> mm the BOM here has special facilities for launching weather balloons
[13:19] <Darkside> http://vimeo.com/19826431
[13:19] <Darkside> theres a video of what they do
[13:20] <Darkside> well, in some areas
[13:20] <Darkside> most places have auto-launchers now
[13:20] <zyp> I think they launch some of the balloons with only a radio reflector as a payload, just to check the wind profile
[13:21] <Darkside> yep
[13:22] <Darkside> around here they fly just radar reflectors at 6Z and 18Z, and at 0Z and 12Z they do radar reflectors and radiosondes
[13:23] <cuddykid> ping Upu / UpuWork
[13:23] <UpuWork> this is going to be an Eagle question isn't it :)
[13:23] <UpuWork> afk ?
[13:23] <cuddykid> lol
[13:23] <cuddykid> one sec
[13:23] <zyp> all the rockets they launched at the range are simply ballistic, so knowing the winds is required to get the launch angle right for the planned trajectory
[13:23] Action: daveake is off the hook then
[13:23] <cuddykid> haha daveake
[13:24] <cuddykid> UpuWork: if you get a free sec - could you briefly scan over the revised board to see if anything looks odd before I route? Cheers :D http://i.imgur.com/uWLAs.png
[13:26] <daveake> Whay's the reg flapping over the side?
[13:27] <cuddykid> It will probably stand upright or bend in
[13:28] <daveake> Also ... not sure of the processor will run at 16MHz from 3V3.
[13:28] <daveake> if
[13:28] <fsphil> good point
[13:29] <daveake> I'm here all week :)
[13:29] <UpuWork> 8Mhz
[13:29] <UpuWork> ah you made it larger
[13:29] <daveake> Otherwise, looks a teeny weeny bit crowded, but you have the aerial connections in the right places.
[13:30] <cuddykid> ahh yeah, oops, forgot to change the value to 8mhz
[13:30] <daveake> You might need 8MHz :p
[13:30] <cuddykid> changed the caps for an 8mhz one
[13:30] <UpuWork> that vreg
[13:30] <cuddykid> yeah UpuWork: now 5x5ish
[13:30] <UpuWork> is going to clip the top of the ATMega vertically
[13:30] <Darkside> cuddykid: placement and routing should kind of happen at teh same time
[13:30] <cuddykid> move down?
[13:31] <Darkside> don't place components then set that in stone
[13:31] <Darkside> always move things around
[13:31] <UpuWork> move the crystal over and put caps at each side of it to minimise and make equal distance between atmega and crystal/caps
[13:31] <UpuWork> NTX2 is going to touch GPS
[13:31] <cuddykid> yeah Darkside, I just wanted to check everything is roughly in the right place, been here quite a few times before!
[13:32] <cuddykid> UpuWork: I'll bend the ntx2 away
[13:32] <UpuWork> ICSP header probably won't fit in there the actual plug that goes on the pins is slight larger as I found out on swift
[13:32] <cuddykid> ahh, maybe I'll rework
[13:32] <UpuWork> whats the comp above the ICSP header ?
[13:32] <cuddykid> button
[13:32] <cuddykid> fro reset
[13:33] <cuddykid> I could do away with it?
[13:33] <UpuWork> what does that need to be there for ?
[13:33] <UpuWork> if you need to reset it at 35km you have bigger issues
[13:33] <daveake> REMOVE the reset button.
[13:33] <daveake> You don't want it resetting because it's bouncing around or something is pressing on it
[13:34] <daveake> I unsolder the button from my Arduinos :)
[13:34] <UpuWork> give your self a little more space, make the board a little larger
[13:34] <daveake> +1
[13:34] <UpuWork> Whats R9 up too ?
[13:35] <UpuWork> under the AVR
[13:35] <UpuWork> pin within a pin
[13:35] <UpuWork> PCB inception
[13:35] <daveake> PUSH
[13:35] <cuddykid> oh didn't see that lol
[13:36] <Darkside> we have to go deeper
[13:36] <Darkside> (more layers)
[13:36] <daveake> It's hidden quite well; I didn't see it either
[13:36] <UpuWork> lol
[13:36] <cuddykid> thanks guys, will rework - lunch
[13:36] <daveake> Let us know when you want your next design demolished :p
[13:36] <Darkside> jeez i didnt even get a look at it
[13:36] <UpuWork> lol
[13:37] <Darkside> OH MY GOD
[13:37] <Darkside> yeah
[13:37] <Darkside> ok
[13:37] <UpuWork> wheres the caps for the power reg ?
[13:37] <UpuWork> oh I think I see them
[13:37] <Darkside> yeah thats not going to be nice to route
[13:37] <daveake> I knew I should have stayed here looking at it instead of answering the door for the Farnell delivery :)
[13:37] <Darkside> i am to do everything single sided
[13:37] <Darkside> aim*
[13:38] <Darkside> and only go to the other layer when i need to
[13:38] <eroomde> that should be the default and is good advice cuddykid ^
[13:38] <Darkside> aha!
[13:38] <eroomde> one side is entirely just a ground plane
[13:38] <eroomde> and the other signals
[13:38] <Darkside> the other person here skilled in pcb design
[13:38] <Darkside> :-)
[13:38] <Darkside> eroomde is probably better than me
[13:38] <daveake> Yep. Ages since I did any, but those were single layer and I tried really hard not to have to add any wires to jump over tracks.
[13:39] <Darkside> since he has done the 4-layer kung fu
[13:39] <eroomde> i think several people on here will attest to their annoyance and frustration at fixing mistakes on boards i have designed
[13:39] <Darkside> lol eroomde
[13:39] <eroomde> so i'm not sure 'skilled' is the right word
[13:39] <Darkside> i had the pinout backwards on a usb socket on a recent PCB of mine
[13:39] <Darkside> but thats the only massive error i can think of
[13:39] <Darkside> it certainly was a showstopper though, had to do some very dodgy rework on the pcb
[13:40] <daveake> I did one once with an IC (could have been all the ICs) upside down. I guess everyone does that once
[13:40] <LazyLeopard> Someone at the radio club etched a batch of mirror-image boards...
[13:40] <daveake> Nothing a pair of pliers couldn't fix
[13:40] <Darkside> heh
[13:40] <Darkside> i dont etch my own boards...
[13:40] <Darkside> really cannot be arsed dealing with that
[13:41] <UpuWork> god no
[13:41] <UpuWork> monkey does it cheap
[13:42] <Darkside> yeah
[13:42] <Darkside> lol
[13:42] <eroomde> pcb prototypes have become so fast and cheap in the last 5 years that home etching has sort of died
[13:42] <eroomde> which is no huge loss imho
[13:43] <Darkside> and you can get far better clearances, and PLATED VIAS
[13:43] <Darkside> yay plated vias
[13:43] <UpuWork> I want to move "monkey" to the building next door
[13:43] <Darkside> and plated EVERYTHING
[13:43] <daveake> I saw at the weekend that Maplin do still sell FeCl etc., but bigger that for a game of soldiers
[13:43] <UpuWork> whats a plated via ?
[13:43] <daveake> *bugger
[13:43] <eroomde> we did the maplin FeCl thing once
[13:43] <eroomde> when we needed a pcb for the parachute drop test
[13:43] <eroomde> in a really really really big hurry (allnighter)
[13:44] <Darkside> UpuWork: what you have on every single hole on your PCBs
[13:44] <Darkside> they coat the holes in graphite then electroplate them
[13:44] <daveake> I used to, and had the stained clothing to prove it, <old_fart_mode> but back then there wasn't much choice </old_fart_mode>
[13:44] <Darkside> which is how you get the coating on the inside of the via
[13:49] <daveake> Since everyone seems to be using Eagle ... is that a good one to go for, and is it free/cheap for up to a certain size board or number of pins?
[13:50] <Darkside> eagle is not a really good one to go for
[13:50] <Darkside> problem is the really good ones to go for cost lots and lots of money
[13:50] <Darkside> eagle is... adequate... for hobbyist use
[13:51] <daveake> Yeah, I bought Lab-something last year for a subbie for a project. Even the lowish level we neded was expensive
[13:51] <Darkside> i use Altium Designer
[13:51] <Darkside> it is king
[13:51] <daveake> Don't mind paying if it saves time
[13:51] <Darkside> used by most of the electronic engineerings companies around here
[13:51] <Darkside> daveake: its NOT cheap
[13:51] <Darkside> like, thousands of dollars per year
[13:51] <jonsowman> eagle is fine, seriously
[13:51] <daveake> Eek
[13:51] <Darkside> very easy to find a pirated version of course
[13:52] <UpuWork> i tried it and it was better than I was so I went back to Eagle
[13:52] <daveake> OK, next question ... for component libraries, do you end up having to add less-used components yourself? Is there an online repository for such work>
[13:52] <Darkside> haha
[13:53] <Darkside> i always end up making components
[13:53] <UpuWork> daveake for Eagle ? or Altrium ?
[13:53] <Darkside> altium has a huge library, but most often the component i want isnt in there :P
[13:53] <daveake> "better than i was" lol. I have an old HP reverse-polish scientific calculator ... every time I switch it on I have an "I'm not worthy" feeling
[13:53] <Darkside> eagle has heaps of online libearies
[13:53] <daveake> Eagle I was thinking
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[13:53] <Darkside> but learn to make yiour own components
[13:53] <UpuWork> making components isn't hard but I've done most of the common ones in Ava.lbr
[13:54] <daveake> ok
[13:54] <UpuWork> there is a package reference library
[13:54] <UpuWork> so you can get the package fairly quickly then just rename to pins
[13:54] <daveake> OK that's a time-saver
[13:55] <UpuWork> but check the Ava.lbr
[13:55] <UpuWork> https://github.com/Upuaut/Eagle-Libraries/blob/master/ava.lbr
[13:56] <UpuWork> if there are any issues let me know so I can correct
[13:56] <daveake> Cheers
[13:57] <navrac> eagle is pretty basic - but works well enough - not too steep learning curve and easy enough to define your own components
[13:57] <daveake> Sounds fine then
[13:58] <fsphil> I keep hitting silly problems, not find a solution and then forget about it for a while
[13:58] <fsphil> then do the same thing over again
[13:58] <daveake> Like life then :)
[13:58] <navrac> took n fternoon to design my first board - including two components
[14:02] <daveake> And presumably Eagle directly outputs the files needed by the PCB manu to do the etching, drilling, labelling and coating?
[14:02] <navrac> yep
[14:02] <daveake> excellent
[14:03] <daveake> I shall have a play then :)
[14:04] <UpuWork> daveake you process the job and it spits out the Gerbers
[14:04] <UpuWork> its pretty simple
[14:04] <daveake> p.s. but don't tell cuddykid otherwise he'll be asking me PCB questions too :p
[14:05] <daveake> ta
[14:05] <UpuWork> I'll have to do a guide at some point but I'm far from an expert
[14:05] <Darkside> i'd better sleep
[14:05] <Darkside> nn all
[14:06] <daveake> nn
[14:06] <Darkside> UpuWork: here's a good starting rule
[14:07] <Darkside> if all your traces take a route with a length more than 4 times the direct distance from pin to pin, YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG
[14:07] <UpuWork> lol
[14:07] <UpuWork> or going in circles
[14:07] <daveake> :-). First thing I used to do was think about where the components should go to stop that happening
[14:08] <Darkside> if your trace jumps from top layer to bottom layer and back again more than 2 times, YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG
[14:08] <Darkside> yeah
[14:08] <UpuWork> I sit down with the actual AVR pin outs and arrange the modules around it
[14:08] <Darkside> i often don't assign microcontroller pins until i layout components
[14:08] <UpuWork> what Darkside just said
[14:08] <Darkside> i'll only assiogn things like ISP, or UARTs
[14:08] <UpuWork> xtal
[14:08] <Darkside> yeah
[14:08] <daveake> Yeah, that's a useful think when you don't have to use particular pins
[14:08] <navrac_> and if the routes neatly run from chip to chip without changing layers - make sure you havent got the ic upside down
[14:08] <daveake> thin
[14:08] <daveake> *thing
[14:09] <daveake> lol
[14:09] <Darkside> yeah
[14:09] <Darkside> other things
[14:09] <Darkside> decoupling caps shouldnt be on the other side of teh pcb from the component they are meant to be decoupling (UPU)
[14:09] <Darkside> and by other side i dont mean on the other layer
[14:10] <UpuWork> All mine are as specified by angry aussie(TM) as close as possible to supply and on the same side
[14:10] <Darkside> :D
[14:10] <Darkside> not angry
[14:10] <UpuWork> "Hi Darkside am I doin this rite?"
[14:10] <UpuWork> "MORE VIAS MORE DECOUPLING CAPS"
[14:10] <Darkside> just making sure your board doesn't fail in some weird way
[14:10] <UpuWork> all advice is appreciated
[14:11] <Darkside> then again i didnt pick up on the reversed UART either
[14:11] <UpuWork> I've picked up loads
[14:11] <UpuWork> no 4 people checked it and it got missed
[14:11] <UpuWork> learning loads
[14:11] <UpuWork> My main rule is "can it be any better?"
[14:11] <Darkside> yeah
[14:11] <Darkside> i'm always optimising
[14:12] <Darkside> can i get this component any closer to this one
[14:12] <Darkside> can this be laid out more effectively
[14:12] <UpuWork> I redo Swift once a night, start again etc
[14:12] <UpuWork> Not happy with it yet
[14:12] <Darkside> am i actually going to be able to assemble this without wanting to kill myself
[14:12] <UpuWork> lol there are alot of things you need to consider
[14:12] <Darkside> i often loose track of scale when i'm doing a PCB
[14:12] <UpuWork> Sketchup rendering does make it much easier to visualise it
[14:13] <Darkside> i'm zoomed in so much tht i dont realise how small what i'm doign really is
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[14:13] <Darkside> ioh yeah
[14:13] <UpuWork> If you have Eagle EagleUp 3D is essential
[14:13] <Darkside> thats something altium is AWESOME at
[14:13] <Darkside> i press '3'
[14:13] <Darkside> and tadaaa, 3d mode
[14:13] <UpuWork> a little more complex in Eagle
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[14:14] <Darkside> i can edit in 3d mode too
[14:14] <Darkside> which is cool
[14:14] <Darkside> cant do everything, but i can do a lot
[14:15] <UpuWork> anyway
[14:15] <UpuWork> work calls
[14:15] <UpuWork> night Darkside
[14:16] <Darkside> night
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[15:18] <griffonbot> Received email: Dave "[UKHAS] Weekend activity"
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[15:41] <daveake> A bit of cleaning, and re-soldering has brought the cloud3 Arduino back to life :)
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[15:47] <fsphil> nice
[15:47] <fsphil> I ran the fsa03 that was in the tree for a month under the tap, going to resolder it tonight
[15:47] <fsphil> it worked but was a bit intermittent. I think there was some dirt on the contacts
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[15:48] <daveake> Salt water does an incredible amount of damage very quickly with power around
[15:49] <daveake> cloud3 was fine while it floated; once it washed up it died probably wihin minutes
[15:50] <daveake> Either because some water inside hit the electronics (in the underside of the lid) or the waves washing over it got inside. There was hardly any water inside when I opened it
[15:50] <daveake> The fsa03 was hidden away so that's probably fine
[15:54] <griffonbot> Received email: Anthony Stirk "Re: [UKHAS] Weekend activity"
[15:55] <chris_99> did it land in the sea daveake?
[15:55] <daveake> Erm, yeah ... http://www.daveakerman.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Landing-1024x572.png :-)
[15:56] <daveake> Dotted line is from the last position in the air (at 600m or so) and the first known position in the sea.
[15:56] <costyn> daveake: eletrolysis is a wonderful (erm) thing ;)
[15:56] <daveake> s/wonderful/evil/
[15:56] <daveake> Killed 2 trackers, 1 camera and 1 phone
[15:57] <BrainDamage> how hard would it be to make them waterproof?
[15:58] <BrainDamage> like adding sealing to the openings
[15:58] <BrainDamage> say, hot glue
[15:58] <costyn> it was meant in jest, and yes, salt water is right up there with microwaves and EMP for electronics destruction
[15:59] <daveake> Well you need somewhere for the air to get out and back in, but that can be a really small hole near the top. Not too tricky.
[16:00] <x-f> has anybody ever landed in a river or lake?
[16:00] <daveake> I've seen a river rescue on YT, so yes
[16:00] <BrainDamage> maybe use a piece of goretex or similar "breathing" rain jacket tissues?
[16:01] <BrainDamage> this way there should be easy pressure equalization and water blocking
[16:01] <BrainDamage> and still good seal
[16:07] <x-f> i'm going to put all electronics (gps, arduino, batteries) in seperate bags inside the payload
[16:08] <x-f> not sealed, of course, but just closed
[16:08] <zyp> why not just coat all the electronics?
[16:08] <costyn> zyp: weight?
[16:08] <x-f> there are wires and sensors and stuff
[16:09] <zyp> do a nice small SMT design and coat it, and I bet you won't notice the weight of it
[16:10] <zyp> I mean, bags aren't weightless, they're just a form of coating that's not stuck to the board.
[16:10] <fsphil> in my case the fsa03 just got wet from the rain water
[16:11] <fsphil> so the damage shouldn't be that bad
[16:11] <fsphil> it didn't rain until a few days after landing too, so the battery would have been drained
[16:11] <x-f> SMT is the next step, i can't do that on my first flight, it's a thing of evolution :)
[16:11] <zyp> and the problem with bags is that you don't want condensation to form inside them
[16:12] <zyp> remember that hot air carries a lot more water than cold air, and the air inside the bags will be relatively hot at the launch
[16:13] <costyn> zyp: hmm yea you'd get condensation on the inside
[16:13] <x-f> heh
[16:14] <zyp> I've worked as an electrician, and I can say from experience that the important part is not to keep water out from electrical enclosures, it's to keep it from staying inside
[16:16] <x-f> there goes my cunning plan.
[16:16] <zyp> so unless something is designed to actually be submerged, you'll normally find a hole on the bottom of the back to let any water, condensation or otherwise, out
[16:17] <zyp> oh, and extension cords
[16:17] <zyp> people like to tape bags around them when using them outdoors
[16:18] <zyp> I've lost count of how many bags on extension cords I've cut open, only to find water and corrosion inside
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[16:26] <griffonbot> Received email: David Akerman "Re: [UKHAS] Weekend activity"
[16:33] <daveake> Mrs Dave has started to check the dates I apply for launches for, to make sure I don't go over my allowance :p
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[17:12] <cuddykid> back from afternoon activities - time to get yet another eagle design done!!
[17:17] <griffonbot> Received email: Rick Hewett "[UKHAS] Re: Weekend activity"
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[17:25] <griffonbot> Received email: Adrian Hicks "[UKHAS] New Signup and a couple of questions"
[17:29] <cuddykid> I think I may go a little nutty if this design isn't good!
[17:31] <number10> .............0.
[17:31] <number10> .
[17:31] <number10> ...
[17:31] <number10> .
[17:31] <number10> ...
[17:31] <number10> oops - leaning my notebook on keyboard sorry
[17:34] <number10> mind you - its probably the most interesting thing I have said all week
[17:34] <cuddykid> haha
[17:35] <cuddykid> Upu / UpuWork: here I go again :P when you get a free mo would you be able to look at version 10000001? Thanks :D http://i.imgur.com/iCeYH.png
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[18:01] <cuddykid> the internet broke again
[18:04] <Upu> Sarantel not on board edge
[18:04] <cuddykid> Upu: a tad bit right?
[18:04] <Upu> SMA to NTX2 clearance is dubious
[18:04] <cuddykid> yeah, I thought that, I'll modify
[18:05] <Upu> remember that Sarantel has a notch out of the board edge
[18:06] RocketBoy_S2 (~RocketBoy@212.183.128.77) got lost in the net-split.
[18:06] <cuddykid> Upu: http://i.imgur.com/6DWSM.png better?
[18:06] daveake (~daveake@daveake.plus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[18:06] <cuddykid> I'm slightly worked about clearance of ISP
[18:07] <Upu> it just looks a bit tight to me
[18:07] <Upu> all comps really
[18:08] <Upu> but yeah Sarantel ok
[18:08] <Upu> AVR to SMA close
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[18:11] <cuddykid> how about - http://i.imgur.com/aXGAr.png?
[18:11] <griffonbot> Received email: navrac "[UKHAS] Re: New Signup and a couple of questions"
[18:12] <Upu> bette
[18:12] <Upu> ICSP needs more space above and below it as the plug is larger than the socket
[18:12] <Upu> once you move it
[18:13] <Upu> mail me the files across
[18:13] <Upu> I'll render it
[18:14] <cuddykid> Upu: after I've routed it?
[18:14] <Upu> if you wish
[18:14] Hix (d92dc755@gateway/web/freenode/ip.217.45.199.85) joined #highaltitude.
[18:14] <cuddykid> ok, I'll save a version before routing and after :)
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[18:16] <griffonbot> Received email: navrac "[UKHAS] Re: New Signup and a couple of questions"
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[18:27] <griffonbot> Received email: Adrian Hicks "Re: [UKHAS] Re: New Signup and a couple of questions"
[18:27] <cuddykid> final version hopefully - http://i.imgur.com/wggS4.png
[18:27] <cuddykid> moved LED over to near temp sensors
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[18:27] Possible future nick collision: ivan``
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[18:32] <cuddykid> this is a nightmare to route
[18:35] <zyp> route better
[18:35] <zyp> :p
[18:35] <zyp> want to switch? I do your board and you finish up this for me: http://bin.jvnv.net/f/ZTEhb.png ? :p
[18:36] <cuddykid> oh no!
[18:43] Action: cuddykid back to the drawing board
[18:44] <Upu> http://i.imgur.com/KN7Zw.png look I made an NTX2 model , pins don't line up but I'll fix that
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[18:50] <cuddykid> oh nice Upu
[18:50] <cuddykid> Upu: I've decided to get rid of the through hole resistors - it's not happening with them
[18:52] <Upu> good idea
[18:52] <cuddykid> I guess that as I get 10 boards a couple can be used for testing out my soldering
[18:54] Jim3 (~JimBuk@5ada863b.bb.sky.com) joined #highaltitude.
[18:54] <priyesh> cuddykid: go for a surface mount atmega too :P
[18:54] <cuddykid> Upu: what are the largest surface mount resistors?
[18:54] <Upu> 0603's are more than solderable
[18:54] <cuddykid> priyesh: now that is pushing my limit :P haha
[18:54] <priyesh> hehe
[18:54] <cuddykid> brill, will switch them out :D
[18:55] <cuddykid> plus it looks a bit more "professional"
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[18:56] <cuddykid> Upu: they're tiny!
[18:57] <Upu> :)
[18:57] <Upu> tweezers
[18:57] <Upu> don't fear them
[18:57] <cuddykid> would 0805 be easy?
[18:57] <cuddykid> *ier
[18:57] <Upu> just don't sneeze
[18:57] <Upu> meh too big
[18:57] <cuddykid> lol ok :D
[18:57] <cuddykid> Upu: where do you get these tiny things from?!
[18:58] <Upu> Farnell
[18:58] <Upu> going to have some on the shop shortly
[18:58] <cuddykid> ahh ok
[18:58] <cuddykid> hmm - still not sure whether to use 0805 or 0603s - my soldering is extremely bad
[18:59] <Upu> 0805's then but you'll need a very fine tip to do 0603's
[18:59] <jonsowman> cuddykid: you could reflow
[19:00] <cuddykid> jonsowman: what do you mean?
[19:00] <jonsowman> reflow solder instead of hand solder
[19:00] <jonsowman> then using smaller components isn't so much of a big deal
[19:01] <cuddykid> oh ok
[19:01] <cuddykid> I'll have a look into it :D
[19:01] <jonsowman> i do my reflowing in a normal oven, medium grill
[19:01] <jonsowman> much to the joy of my parents
[19:01] <jonsowman> :D
[19:02] <cuddykid> lol
[19:03] <Upu> do you put on the solder paste with a syringe ?
[19:03] <jonsowman> Upu: yep
[19:03] <jonsowman> i've done a couple just dabbing it on with a toothpick
[19:03] <Upu> I'm going to buy a skillet and try that
[19:03] <jonsowman> but i find the syringe is better
[19:03] <Upu> lol ok
[19:04] <jonsowman> resulted in a fairly good reflow: http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7005/6576944409_9772b71081_b.jpg
[19:05] <cuddykid> oh wow, my board has got a bit more space :D
[19:05] <Upu> yeah thats nice
[19:07] Lunar_Lander (~gd-fermi@p5488340B.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #highaltitude.
[19:08] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[19:12] <cuddykid> space glorious space
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[19:15] <cuddykid> Upu: check out revision 1000000000000000002 - http://i.imgur.com/y3Xty.png - any good?
[19:15] <Upu> getting there
[19:15] <cuddykid> lol
[19:15] <Upu> replace the ATMega with a SM one
[19:15] <Upu> dare you
[19:15] <cuddykid> noooooooo!
[19:15] <cuddykid> I've got all the chips here waiting lol
[19:15] <Upu> ok :)
[19:15] <Upu> I'll have a good look later
[19:16] <cuddykid> can I begin routing?! :P
[19:16] <Lunar_Lander> VEGA launched successfully!
[19:17] <Upu> do it cuddykid
[19:17] <cuddykid> :D
[19:17] Hix (5d60d31a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.96.211.26) joined #highaltitude.
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[19:18] <Lunar_Lander> hi Upu cuddykid
[19:18] <Lunar_Lander> I am so happy right now
[19:18] <cuddykid> hi Lunar_Lander
[19:18] <Lunar_Lander> VEGA flew
[19:18] <cuddykid> so I am sort of lol
[19:18] <cuddykid> :D
[19:18] <Lunar_Lander> and my boss is in the newspaper
[19:18] <Lunar_Lander> !
[19:18] <cuddykid> nice!
[19:18] <Lunar_Lander> they think life could have first developed on land
[19:18] <Lunar_Lander> in swamps
[19:19] <cuddykid> awesome
[19:19] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
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[19:25] <Lunar_Lander> cuddykid: so what are you up to?
[19:34] <griffonbot> Received email: Hix "[UKHAS] Re: uBLOX 6 GPS Modules Proposal"
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[19:41] <cuddykid> Lunar_Lander: creating a custom pcb :D on my billionth revision lol
[19:41] <Lunar_Lander> xD yay
[19:41] <Lunar_Lander> hi daveake_
[19:41] <cuddykid> just fried a steak, now the room is covered in grease - yuck
[19:41] <Lunar_Lander> ohhh
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[19:45] <Lunar_Lander> hi NigeyS
[19:46] <NigeyS> ello :)
[19:47] <Lunar_Lander> how are you?
[19:54] <Laurenceb_> http://i.imgur.com/TjL1J.png
[19:58] <fsphil> finally, home!
[19:58] <Lunar_Lander> yay fsphil
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[20:03] Action: daveake_ has a full belly
[20:03] Nick change: daveake_ -> daveake
[20:03] <Lunar_Lander> yay
[20:03] <Lunar_Lander> what did you eat?
[20:03] <daveake> Well, since you ask, I cooked a Nasi Goreng :)
[20:03] <Lunar_Lander> YAY
[20:04] <daveake> That was what I cooked on the first date with my wife, so seeing as it's Valentine's day I thought I'd do it again :)
[20:06] <Lunar_Lander> YAY 2
[20:08] <Lunar_Lander> fsphil, daveake our newspaper has an article on the VEGA launch
[20:08] <Lunar_Lander> and on the next page, my boss gets interviewed
[20:08] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[20:10] <fsphil> nice
[20:11] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[20:17] Action: cuddykid back to routing
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[20:41] <cuddykid> routing finished - some close shaves though
[20:41] <cuddykid> guess it will through up a lot of warnings
[20:42] <Laurenceb_> imgur
[20:42] <natrium42> action verb missing
[20:44] <Laurenceb_> coming soon a film about a BEEEP
[20:44] <Laurenceb_> this part missing...
[20:44] <Laurenceb_> ZEEKYBOOGDOOG
[20:45] <Laurenceb_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDEPvyBA_cQ
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[20:50] <eroomde> Hibby: yo
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[21:05] <cuddykid> Upu: what do you think? :P http://i.imgur.com/Mb7k7.png
[21:07] <Upu> not looking bad
[21:08] <cuddykid> :D
[21:08] <cuddykid> can I mail you the files?
[21:08] <Upu> yeah
[21:08] <cuddykid> would you be able to have a look over to see if there would be any probs etc?
[21:08] <Upu> NTX2 path is still a bit "bendy"
[21:08] <Upu> sure do that
[21:08] <eroomde> cuddykid: unsolicited advice
[21:08] <DanielRichman> have you got a ground plane pour/whatever it's called?
[21:08] <cuddykid> cheers Upu :)
[21:08] <Upu> I'm going to show him how to do a copper pour
[21:08] <eroomde> put a ground plane fill on the top and bottom layers when you're done
[21:08] <eroomde> ok cool
[21:09] <cuddykid> ahh yeah, forgot copper pour
[21:09] <cuddykid> righty ho - I'll get them sent now Upu :)
[21:09] <eroomde> especial emphasis around the gps
[21:09] <eroomde> consider shaping the polygon a bit so it's a separate ground connected to thew rest of the board in only once place
[21:09] <Upu> yeah thats why there is a t &brestrict under GPS, thats coming out now its routed and the pour is going in
[21:10] <eroomde> via the poo out of it
[21:10] <eroomde> and maybe loose that bottom layer track that runs right under rf_in on the gps
[21:10] <Upu> you've seen my breakouts ? the man who does vias at Seeed hates me
[21:10] <eroomde> if you can
[21:10] <Upu> that will go
[21:10] <Upu> its GNS anyway
[21:10] <Upu> GND
[21:10] <griffonbot> Received email: Chris Hembrow "Re: [UKHAS] Weekend activity"
[21:10] <eroomde> oh i see
[21:11] <eroomde> ok i'll shutup until pour
[21:11] <DanielRichman> by the way: http://habitat.habhub.org/stats/
[21:11] <Upu> oh yeah look at Daniels stats
[21:11] <cuddykid> awesome DanielRichman!
[21:12] <Upu> ok cuddykid give me a few mins
[21:12] <cuddykid> thanks Upu
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[21:17] <Laurenceb_> where the cement pour?
[21:20] <Upu> what colour PCB cuddykid ? Green blue red ?
[21:21] <cuddykid> I would love blue or red, but it's extra money, so I'll stick with green
[21:21] <griffonbot> Received email: Daniel Richman "[UKHAS] habitat upload totals"
[21:22] <Upu> meh tents on vias
[21:24] <cuddykid> tents?
[21:24] <Upu> vias that link the top and bottom of the board together are insulated
[21:24] <cuddykid> oh
[21:25] <cuddykid> was that the auto router?
[21:28] <griffonbot> Received email: Dave "Re: [UKHAS] Weekend activity"
[21:31] <Upu> no its part of the DRC
[21:31] <Upu> be with you in a sec just having an argument with a customer server
[21:31] <cuddykid> lol ok :)
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[21:33] <Upu> http://i.imgur.com/9YwMp.png
[21:33] <Upu> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-usTylOhTc
[21:33] <cuddykid> :O wow!
[21:34] <Upu> I thicked up the track from RF out on NTX2 and RF IN on GPS
[21:34] <Upu> still think its a bit tight
[21:34] <cuddykid> awesome thanks :)
[21:35] <cuddykid> yeah, it does look a bit tight around top of gps
[21:36] <cuddykid> Upu: would you be able to do me a favour? Shuffle the sma antenna connector and ublox/antenna down a little
[21:36] <cuddykid> on your annotation it does seem very close to ntx2
[21:36] <Upu> yeah in a min
[21:38] <cuddykid> thanks
[21:38] <Upu> see what the others think like I say I'm still learning this stuff
[21:39] <cuddykid> yeah
[21:40] <cuddykid> Also - how do you drill holes in opposite corners?
[21:40] <cuddykid> and write stuff on the board?
[21:40] <Upu> sparkfun library -> stand off
[21:40] <Upu> put 2 on the schematic
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[21:42] <cuddykid> cheers
[21:42] <cuddykid> and what surface finish do you go for?
[21:43] <UpuWork> cheapest ? :)
[21:43] <cuddykid> ok :P
[21:43] <cuddykid> Hasl it is
[21:43] <cuddykid> with lead?
[21:43] <jonsowman> ENIG is pretty
[21:43] <jonsowman> but largely unrequired for your purposes
[21:43] <cuddykid> +$15 though!
[21:44] <jonsowman> in fact totally pointless for you
[21:44] <cuddykid> lol
[21:44] <cuddykid> 1.6mm PCB thickness?
[21:44] <cuddykid> (standard)
[21:44] <jonsowman> unless you have a particular reason to go otherwise
[21:44] <Upu> yes
[21:44] <cuddykid> brill
[21:44] <Upu> Sarantel fits snug on 1.6mm
[21:45] <jonsowman> cuddykid: you ordering from seeed/
[21:45] <jonsowman> ?
[21:45] <cuddykid> jonsowman: yeah
[21:45] <Randomskk> why square vias :()
[21:45] <jonsowman> :)
[21:45] <Randomskk> why right angles :(
[21:45] <Upu> because I'm rushing
[21:45] <Upu> round vias
[21:45] <Randomskk> I think you can change all vias on the board to round in one go
[21:45] <Randomskk> though it's not like
[21:45] <Randomskk> well
[21:45] <Randomskk> for ground plane vias it makes zero difference
[21:46] <Randomskk> are you tending them?
[21:46] <Randomskk> tenting*
[21:46] <Upu> yeah they are tented
[21:46] <Upu> see video
[21:46] <Randomskk> oh right cool
[21:47] <Upu> it still needs some work just giving cuddykid some ideas
[21:52] <cuddykid> Upu: am I ok to place an order with seeed now?
[21:52] <Upu> hang fire
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[21:53] <jonsowman> cuddykid: have you generated and checked the gerbers?
[21:53] Action: cuddykid finger hovers over trigger
[21:53] <cuddykid> lol
[21:53] <Upu> not even finished the board yet
[21:53] <cuddykid> jonsowman: not yet
[21:53] <Upu> :)
[21:53] <jonsowman> oh okay
[21:53] <cuddykid> haha :D
[21:53] <jonsowman> sorry, haven't been following this from the start
[21:53] <cuddykid> jonsowman: it's been a long long journey - many many many revisions lol
[21:54] <jonsowman> cuddykid: it's the best way to learn
[21:54] <jonsowman> cuddykid: which revision is this then?
[21:54] <cuddykid> one millionth probably lol
[21:54] <cuddykid> lost count a while back :D
[21:54] <jonsowman> hehe
[21:54] <jonsowman> put revision number on the silk screen
[21:54] <cuddykid> lol
[21:54] <daveake> I think the unsigned int16 revision counter has been round the block a few times
[21:55] <jonsowman> you'll thank yourself when you find them in x months time and don't know which version it is cuddykid
[21:55] <cuddykid> yeah, very true
[21:55] <griffonbot> Received email: Dave "Re: [UKHAS] habitat upload totals"
[21:55] <jonsowman> as well as date etc
[21:55] <cuddykid> daveake: even the long long has
[21:56] <Randomskk> increment the revision number when you sent it for manufacture then keep a copy of the sch and brd against that number ;) (or tag it on git)
[21:56] <jonsowman> good advice ^
[21:57] <Randomskk> except for send*
[21:57] <Randomskk> but yea
[21:59] <cuddykid> why are there restrictions around the ublox? e.g. no routes under it and lots of vias?
[21:59] <jonsowman> it's general RF good practice
[22:00] <cuddykid> oh ok
[22:00] <griffonbot> Received email: David Akerman "Re: [UKHAS] habitat upload totals"
[22:01] <jonsowman> cuddykid: traces under it will radiate and could cause additional noise pickup inside the module, and lots of vias ensure that the copper around is kept as noise-free as possible
[22:01] <jonsowman> tying it to ground everywhere means potentials can't develop across the surface of the copper
[22:01] <cuddykid> ahh I got you :D thanks
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[22:04] <Randomskk> though bear in mind that's only going to work if you also have a really good ground plane
[22:04] <Randomskk> which means a near-uninterrupted solid copper pour on one layer that is complete for the entire current path
[22:04] <Randomskk> which means a perfect or near-perfect copper pour directly underneath all the copper carrying supply current on the other layer
[22:05] <Randomskk> current has to go back and it would very much like to go back the way it came, which also keeps the loop area that the current's circulating in as small as possible and therefore gives you the lowest radiation
[22:05] <Randomskk> ground planes that are all broken up don't really serve as ground planes and may as well just be short copper traces for many intents and purposes
[22:06] <Randomskk> (which is still important! but if you actually need a good ground plane, that's different)
[22:06] <Upu> http://i.imgur.com/YnKEv.png
[22:07] <Randomskk> so for instance the two traces I see that run under the right-hand (antenna-side) row of pads on the GPS...
[22:07] <Upu> ignore that it was a GND anyway
[22:07] <Randomskk> would perhaps be a lot better run as far left as possible
[22:07] <Randomskk> how come it wasn't being merged with the ground pour?
[22:08] <Upu> dunno Eagle is funny like that it's merged now check that pic I just posted
[22:08] <jonsowman> just eagle keeping you on your toes
[22:08] <Upu> btw
[22:08] <Upu> sure you want to use an NEO-6 ?
[22:09] <Randomskk> the just posted pic only shows the top layer but I was talking about a bottom layer trace :P
[22:09] <Upu> I mailed you the files back to have a play with them
[22:09] <Upu> sec
[22:10] <Upu> http://i.imgur.com/gKxyK.png
[22:10] <Upu> I see which one you mean
[22:10] <Upu> and that SMA looks close to the edge
[22:11] <Randomskk> both of those two to be honest
[22:12] <Randomskk> could easily be moved to the left side of the ublox
[22:12] <jonsowman> those small bits of silk text are unlikely to come out i'd've thought
[22:12] <cuddykid> Upu: yeah, I'll go with neo-6 with this one
[22:12] <Randomskk> even though it means they'd take up more space directly under the thing, they'd take up a lot less near the actual RF parts
[22:13] <Randomskk> also it looks like your six pin header next to the AVR has offset pins, I assume that's intentional for locking?
[22:13] <cuddykid> thanks Upu
[22:13] <cuddykid> Randomskk: yup
[22:14] <griffonbot> Received email: Anthony Stirk "Re: [UKHAS] Re: New Signup and a couple of questions"
[22:14] <jonsowman> you might want to avoid silk over pads too
[22:14] <Upu> yes!
[22:14] <Upu> thats what I meant to say
[22:14] <cuddykid> Upu: is it all sorted now ready to roll? Just going to pop silk on and those 2 holes at opposite corners?
[22:15] <Upu> Up to you cuddykid I know you're keen
[22:15] <Randomskk> do you have enough space for mounting holes?
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[22:15] <Randomskk> like you need a fairly large keepout for the screwhead
[22:15] <Randomskk> I'd be concerned it would get in the way of the satentel
[22:15] <Randomskk> maybe not, I can't judge the scale well on the 3d rendering
[22:15] <cuddykid> might just do one then
[22:15] <Upu> but I'd spend a little time just rerouting those wires as per Randomskki
[22:15] <Upu> you'd need more board
[22:16] <Randomskk> is there an eagle screenshot/png of the latest version?
[22:16] <cuddykid> where would I stick the randomskk reroutes?
[22:16] <Upu> cuddykid has it now
[22:16] <Lunar_Lander> btw
[22:16] <Lunar_Lander> my boss on newspaper: http://www.noz.de/deutschland-und-welt/politik/niedersachsen/60811520/osnabruecker-forscher-widerlegt-theorie-entstand-das-leben-doch-nicht-im-meer
[22:17] <Upu> sadly I don't speak German, dog walk time
[22:20] <cuddykid> is this too close? http://i.imgur.com/XeyhA.png
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[22:22] <cuddykid> also - how do I move silkscreen text?
[22:22] <griffonbot> Received email: Rick Hewett "[UKHAS] Re: habitat upload totals"
[22:23] <Randomskk> cuddykid: try the "break" or "smash" or something tool
[22:23] <Randomskk> it separates silk from the parts
[22:23] <Randomskk> so you can move it
[22:23] <Randomskk> or do what I do
[22:23] <Randomskk> turn off the _tPlace and _tName and _tValue or wahtever they are layers
[22:23] <Randomskk> and have a new layer that contains your silk
[22:23] <Randomskk> which only contains things you added yourself
[22:23] <Randomskk> for a CPB
[22:23] <Randomskk> uh
[22:23] <Randomskk> for a PCB* but then I got bored of saying that
[22:24] <Randomskk> anyway the point is that including all the long names and values and drawings isn't always helpful. stuff like pin 1 indicators can be and maybe values and then other drawings you enjoy and some words like a date and revision and your name/project name etc
[22:24] <Randomskk> anyway wrt your screenshot
[22:24] <Randomskk> yes
[22:24] <Randomskk> the outer red line is the screw head
[22:24] <griffonbot> Received email: =?utf-8?B?a2FydHBhcnRzQGdtYWlsLmNvbQ==?= "Re: [UKHAS] Re: New Signup and a couple of questions"
[22:24] <jonsowman> i keep Place but don't include Names/Values in the silk section of the CAM processor
[22:24] <Randomskk> the white line around the two pins is the plastic header
[22:25] <Randomskk> so in your case they are intersecting and the screw would not go on
[22:25] <cuddykid> thanks Randomskk
[22:29] <Randomskk> no problem
[22:29] <Randomskk> when you get bored of listening, send them off for manufacture, then fix any remaining mistakes with wire on the PCBs, quickest way to learn :P
[22:30] <Upu> lol
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[22:30] <Upu> yup
[22:30] <Randomskk> I think I'm yet to repeat a mistake on a PCB, but that hasn't stopped me discovering new ones all the time ;)
[22:30] <Randomskk> I think only one r1 PCB ever worked entirely with no issues...
[22:30] <griffonbot> Received email: Philip Heron "Re: [UKHAS] habitat upload totals"
[22:30] <Randomskk> oh two if I count the one where I had to swap out a part for one with an identical footprint, that was ok
[22:31] <jonsowman> we can't accept that, sorry :P
[22:31] <Upu> You should see Swift
[22:31] <Upu> I consider it a learning exercise
[22:31] <fsphil-laptop> more patches than an amateur knife juggler
[22:32] <Randomskk> it was just a resistor =(
[22:32] <Randomskk> Upu: haha some of the earlier CUSF boards...
[22:32] <jonsowman> we don't talk about those
[22:32] <Upu> lol
[22:32] <cuddykid> Upu: did you run any design/electrical checks?
[22:32] <Upu> I've learn heaps
[22:32] <Upu> you have to run them
[22:32] <Upu> :)
[22:33] <cuddykid> oh ok :)
[22:33] <Randomskk> run all of them and clear all errors
[22:33] <Randomskk> seriously
[22:33] <Randomskk> actually I seem to remember eagle not being so good about this, in that sometimes it whines about things that are not really issues
[22:33] <Randomskk> ...but be really, really, really sure they're not issues!
[22:33] <Upu> it does all the time
[22:34] <Upu> but you have to be sure as you hammer "ignore" you don't get something important
[22:34] <cuddykid> oh look at that - GND wasn't connected to the 2nd temp sensor on schematic even though it looked like it!
[22:34] <Upu> http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/datasheet/Fusion%20eagle.zip
[22:34] <Upu> http://www.lucadentella.it/2011/10/22/guida-al-servizio-fusion-pcb-di-seeedstudio/?lang=en
[22:34] <Randomskk> cuddykid: for instance that kinda thing :P
[22:35] <cuddykid> oh no, my mistake, it was, but it looked like it was connected to others aswell
[22:35] <Upu> btw
[22:36] <cuddykid> just to check, AVCC (atmega) should be connected to VCC?
[22:36] <Upu> I always press F7 and just wiggle each comp around to see if its connected correctly then just hit escape to snap it back
[22:37] <jonsowman> cuddykid: yes
[22:37] <jonsowman> cuddykid: are you using the ADC?
[22:38] <cuddykid> no, don't think so
[22:38] <Randomskk> cuddykid: feel like posting a .png or .pdf of the schematic and current whole board? :P
[22:38] <cuddykid> yeah, one sec
[22:40] <cuddykid> http://i.imgur.com/xrOM7.png
[22:40] <cuddykid> http://i.imgur.com/FvRTM.png
[22:41] <Randomskk> uhm, your power LED
[22:41] <cuddykid> ?
[22:41] <Randomskk> and your electrolytic reservoir capacitor
[22:41] <Randomskk> both appear to have their positive sides going to ground?
[22:41] <Randomskk> or I've totally lost it
[22:41] <Randomskk> wait
[22:41] <Randomskk> ...your regulator appears to have its ground pin going to vcc?
[22:41] <Randomskk> and its input going to ground?
[22:41] <Randomskk> and its output going to the power supply?
[22:41] <cuddykid> yeah, the regulator footprint is bad
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[22:42] <Randomskk> that's.... incredibly confusing
[22:42] <cuddykid> ignore the in/out/gnd printed on the reg, it's wrong
[22:42] <cuddykid> yeah
[22:42] <Randomskk> you can fix it really easily you know
[22:42] <cuddykid> really?
[22:42] <Randomskk> like a) use another regulator part, there are tons with eagle (and in the sparkfun library if you're not using it) that will probs be correct
[22:42] <Randomskk> but b) you can edit that schematic image so the words are right
[22:42] <Randomskk> uhm, I mean, edit the schematic symbol for the regulator
[22:43] <Randomskk> might have to copy it into a new library
[22:43] <Randomskk> at the least, big words on the schematic to say "THIS IS RIGHT REALLY I PROMISE"
[22:43] <Randomskk> (also double check it it in fact right :P)
[22:43] <Randomskk> but I'd go with (a)
[22:43] <Randomskk> do you have the sparkfun library?
[22:43] <cuddykid> yeah
[22:43] <Randomskk> it should have a regulator in it that works
[22:43] <cuddykid> the 3v3 and 5v have different pinouts
[22:44] <cuddykid> the spark fun is for 5v, hasn't got 3v3
[22:44] <cuddykid> but I can read it ok
[22:44] <Randomskk> uhm
[22:44] <Randomskk> the sparkfun library part is specific for 5v?
[22:44] <Randomskk> it... isn't?
[22:44] <jonsowman> cuddykid: you might want to label the RESET line on the AVR
[22:44] <jonsowman> just for clarity
[22:45] <jonsowman> also you don't technically need a pullup on RESET
[22:45] <Randomskk> talking of reset, R11 is redundant - the AVR has a 10k pullup internally
[22:45] <Randomskk> jon beat me to it :(
[22:45] <jonsowman> lol
[22:45] <Upu> see you thought I was bad no you you let Adam and Jon on it :)
[22:45] <jonsowman> sorry
[22:45] <Upu> bloody hell
[22:45] <Upu> now you
[22:45] <Upu> I should go to bed
[22:46] <Randomskk> ugh it's that time already? :( what a day
[22:46] <Randomskk> cuddykid: I think it will probably all work OK as it stands
[22:47] <jonsowman> yep i can't see any show-stoppers
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[22:47] <cuddykid> lol, ok, thanks guys :D
[22:47] <Randomskk> and by the same measure there are like a thousand little things you could change if you really wanted
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[22:48] <Randomskk> hmm actually having said that, why does your GPS appear to not be connected to power on the schematic?
[22:49] <Randomskk> (and in other news, when making EAGLE part symbols, you shouldn't put number_name as the pin name, you can specify the number separately and have it display it)
[22:50] <Randomskk> uhm
[22:50] <Randomskk> I can't see any power going to the GPS?
[22:50] <Randomskk> that might count as a showstopper
[22:50] <cuddykid> oh that's a point!
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[22:50] <cuddykid> oh dear lol
[22:50] <cuddykid> well spotted!
[22:50] <jonsowman> hehe
[22:50] <Randomskk> fun tip: when it's routing time, after part placement
[22:50] <jonsowman> cuddykid: the SF eagle lib has the correct LM1117 layout i think
[22:50] <jonsowman> otherwise i've got a serious problem with a PCB...
[22:51] <Randomskk> make the bottom layer 100% ground plane and connect all top side grounds to it
[22:51] <Randomskk> second, route all the VCC nets
[22:51] <Randomskk> with nice thick traces, too -- like 16, 20mil or more
[22:51] <Randomskk> third, route crystals, then fourth, high speed data lines
[22:51] <priyesh> that's good advice ^^
[22:51] <Randomskk> finally route the unimportant things like LEDs, low data rate lines, misc traces
[22:52] <jonsowman> and finally finally, find a mistake, rip everything up, cry a bit, start again
[22:52] <cuddykid> yes lol
[22:52] <Randomskk> addendum: keep all the not-ground-traces traces on the top, without using the bottom layer for anything except ground plane, if you can
[22:52] <Randomskk> (and you might be able to!)
[22:52] <cuddykid> VCC and RESET connected?
[22:52] <Randomskk> ?
[22:52] <cuddykid> for ISP
[22:52] <cuddykid> reset pin
[22:52] <Randomskk> no
[22:53] <Randomskk> if you do that
[22:53] <Randomskk> you can't reset the avr
[22:53] <cuddykid> ahh, how do I connect up ISP reset to atmega reset?
[22:53] <jonsowman> straight connection
[22:53] <Randomskk> yea
[22:53] <Randomskk> all the ICSP lines should go direct to corresponding AVR pins
[22:54] <cuddykid> so reset on atmega not connected to VCC?
[22:54] <jonsowman> nope
[22:54] <Randomskk> no
[22:54] <Randomskk> just to ICSP, nothing else
[22:54] <cuddykid> oh, ok
[22:54] <cuddykid> even though ICSP won't be active all the time?
[22:54] <Randomskk> when I said you don't need R11, I mean get rid of it and the VCC, not short it out
[22:54] <Randomskk> yea, the reset will by default be pulled up to Vcc inside the AVR
[22:54] <Randomskk> but through 10k, so when the ICSP needs to pull it down it can overpower the 10k if you like
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[22:54] <Randomskk> if you conneceted it directly it'd be impossible to pull it down. when the ICSP tried it would short circuit the power supply
[22:54] <Randomskk> =sad
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[22:56] <zyp> cuddykid, how's it going?
[22:57] <zyp> I just finished up my own board since you didn't want to do it for me ;)
[22:57] <zyp> http://bin.jvnv.net/f/nGjGf.png
[22:58] <cuddykid> zyp: a little bit of a nightmare lol
[22:58] <cuddykid> almost finished though, I can sniff the end!
[22:58] <cuddykid> *smell
[22:58] <cuddykid> lol
[22:58] <jonsowman> light at the end of the tunnel
[22:58] <jonsowman> just hope it's not a train
[22:58] <cuddykid> that's the one
[22:59] <jonsowman> hopefully the effort you put in now will mean everything works perfectly and this will be the final revision
[22:59] <Darkside> zyp: nice layout there
[23:00] <Darkside> zyp: one comment: powerchoke inductors arent meant to have copper below the centre of them
[23:00] <zyp> yeah, I think it worked out quite nicely
[23:00] <zyp> oh, right
[23:00] <Darkside> it'll probably work anyway
[23:01] <Darkside> so whats going on that board?
[23:01] <Randomskk> I see you've opted to connect the USB shield directly to your ground plane zyp
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[23:01] <Randomskk> contentious
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[23:01] <Darkside> :O
[23:01] <Darkside> he didn't!
[23:01] <Darkside> what a horrible person
[23:01] <jonsowman> at risk of starting WW3 there
[23:02] <Randomskk> I assume the connector on the middle left is USB...
[23:02] <zyp> it is
[23:02] <Darkside> also i connect the USB power rails in via inductors
[23:02] <Randomskk> and that sure looks like your shield is going to ground ;)
[23:02] <Darkside> just to be extra paranoid
[23:02] <Randomskk> Darkside: and you have a block of ESD diodes on the lines too, right?
[23:02] <Darkside> actually no
[23:02] <Darkside> lol
[23:02] <Darkside> maybe i should
[23:02] <Randomskk> if anything I'd do that before an inductor on power
[23:03] <Randomskk> USB is like "hello static please to be coursing down my D+ and D- traces"
[23:03] <zyp> oh, ESD diodes, I was considering them but I forgot
[23:03] <Darkside> well i'm trying to stop noise getting into a circuit
[23:03] <Randomskk> admittedly more so on devices that expose a USB male tab thing than not
[23:03] <Randomskk> zyp: but seriously, did you consider whether or not to connect the shield to ground?
[23:03] <Randomskk> it actually is contentious
[23:03] <Randomskk> I wasn't joking around
[23:03] <Darkside> Randomskk: any suggestions on what diodes to use?
[23:03] <Randomskk> Darkside: yea hang on
[23:03] <Darkside> preferably 0603
[23:04] <Randomskk> oh it's like a thing
[23:04] <zyp> Randomskk, I've always used to do that
[23:04] <Darkside> zyp: is the usb just for programming?
[23:04] <Darkside> also what the heck is on that board?
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[23:04] <zyp> more like configuring, but yeah
[23:05] <Darkside> got a schematic you can show us?
[23:05] <Darkside> because it looks pretty cool
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[23:05] <Darkside> i'm seeing all sorts of weird pads and things
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[23:05] <Darkside> and going WTF
[23:05] <zyp> STM32F4, IMU sensors, GPS, CPLD, xbee socket
[23:05] <zyp> it's intended to be used as an IMU controller
[23:05] <Darkside> ooh
[23:05] <Darkside> cool
[23:06] <Darkside> switchmode powerr supply too i see
[23:06] <zyp> yes
[23:06] <Darkside> is that a TPS61000 i see there?
[23:06] <zyp> for the SMPS? no
[23:06] <Darkside> or something else
[23:06] <Darkside> ok
[23:06] <Randomskk> Darkside: parts like http://uk.farnell.com/stmicroelectronics/usblc6-2sc6/ic-esd-protection-smd-sot-23-6/dp/1269406
[23:07] <zyp> it's an LT something
[23:07] <Randomskk> you connect it to ground, vbus, d+, d-
[23:07] <Darkside> zyp: boost or buck?
[23:07] <zyp> buck
[23:07] <Darkside> ahh ok
[23:08] <Darkside> Randomskk: thanks
[23:08] <Darkside> i do need this kind of thing
[23:08] <Darkside> i killed my last usb-audio IC with statuc
[23:08] <zyp> I'd show you a schematic, but it's just a mess after some pinswapping, so I'd like to clean it up first :p
[23:08] <Darkside> hehe
[23:08] <Darkside> my schematics are horrible
[23:09] <Randomskk> pretty schematics is like commenting and well-organising code
[23:09] <Randomskk> makes mistakes easy to spot
[23:09] <Randomskk> makes the concepts easy to communicate
[23:10] <Darkside> http://i.imgur.com/6TGAx.jpg
[23:10] <Lunar_Lander> hi Darkside
[23:10] <Darkside> i've been meaning to put boxes around each part and label them
[23:10] <Darkside> hi Lunar_Lander
[23:10] <Lunar_Lander> how's life?
[23:10] <Randomskk> https://randomskk.net/u/amp_sch.pdf is recent though simple
[23:10] <Darkside> good...
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[23:12] <Darkside> anyway, i'll certainly be putting one of those ESD protection ICs on the board
[23:13] <Darkside> the chip has no ESD protection from waht i can tell
[23:13] <Lunar_Lander> ohh
[23:13] <Randomskk> but yea ideally you have those diodes, an inductor on vbus, and are clever about the shield
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[23:14] <Randomskk> for a USB device rather than host, I'd usually say connect shield to ground through a 10nF capacitor
[23:14] <Darkside> i dont connect the shield
[23:14] <Randomskk> because then you still break any potential DC ground loops, but can dissipate any induced RF
[23:14] <Darkside> hmm
[23:14] <Randomskk> for hosts, shield to ground is obvious
[23:14] <Randomskk> for USB OTG where it can be a host or a client... haha good luck
[23:14] <Darkside> yeah in this case this is a SDR
[23:15] <Darkside> so i don't want any of that crap being a problem
[23:15] <zyp> http://bin.jvnv.net/f/hrX4l.png <- mcu sheet looks rather decent, at least
[23:15] <Randomskk> though if battery powered USB OTG then ground loops are unlikely to become an issue
[23:15] <Darkside> i've already got a common mode choke on the power rails
[23:15] <Randomskk> cuddykid: check out the microcontroller in the middle of zyp's schematic
[23:15] <Randomskk> note that his has numbered pins and normal pin names
[23:15] <Randomskk> rather than putting the pin number in the pin name
[23:16] <Randomskk> zyp: maybe just don't connect shield to ground, if you haven't already sent this for manufacture
[23:17] <Randomskk> incidental fun fact, st really recommend tantalums for some of the decoupling caps and they're even quite specific about what values they'd like you to use
[23:17] <Randomskk> and how many, and where exactly to put them
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[23:18] <Lunar_Lander> wow british government proposes electric cigarettes!
[23:18] <Lunar_Lander> that is cool
[23:18] <Laurenceb_> lulwut
[23:19] <zyp> http://bin.jvnv.net/f/EF6TY.png <- oh, and this is what I mean by horrible mess
[23:19] <Lunar_Lander> The government's "nudge unit" wants to encourage the use of smokeless nicotine cigarettes, banned in many countries around the world, in an attempt to reduce the numbers killed in the UK by smoking diseases each year.
[23:19] <Lunar_Lander> The Cabinet Office's behavioural insight team  better known as the nudge unit  wants to adopt the new technology because policy officials believe the rigid "quit or die" approach to smoking advice no longer works. Rather, they want nicotine addiction to be managed to help smokers who otherwise won't quit  an approach the unit believes could prevent millions of smoking deaths. Ten million people in the UK smoke, and sm
[23:19] <Laurenceb_> ST app note 2867 is interesting
[23:19] <Randomskk> zyp: haha ewww :D
[23:19] <Laurenceb_> also, dongs in WRONG
[23:20] <Laurenceb_> zyp: you dont need a resistor across xtals on stm32
[23:20] <Laurenceb_> its built into the processor
[23:20] <Randomskk> but you should definitely have more decoupling
[23:21] <Randomskk> also I'm a bit surprised that chip only has one VDD and one VSS, plus the analogue ones?
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[23:21] <Randomskk> but meh I don't see why not
[23:21] <zyp> eagle 6, multiple pins as one in the schematic
[23:21] <zyp> I love it.
[23:21] <Randomskk> aha yes I see the litle ^4
[23:21] <Laurenceb_> i guess
[23:21] <Laurenceb_> i find it annoying
[23:22] <Laurenceb_> zyp: running on mac?
[23:22] <Randomskk> it seems a bit... less clear
[23:22] <zyp> yes
[23:22] <Randomskk> but anyway regardless that means you should definitely have more decoupling :P
[23:22] <Laurenceb_> ah - i have annoying glitches on linux
[23:22] <Laurenceb_> its like eagle4 all over again
[23:22] <Laurenceb_> like they broke stuff
[23:22] <zyp> Randomskk, more than one on every pin?
[23:22] <Randomskk> zyp: in some specific cases
[23:22] <Lunar_Lander> I think smoking at a hydrogen launch would be bad
[23:23] <Laurenceb_> heh
[23:23] <Randomskk> in my three-VDD case there's a 100nF on VDD1,2,3 and 4u7 on VDD3 and 1u and 10n on VDDA
[23:23] <fsphil-laptop> what give you that idea Lunar_Lander ? :)
[23:23] <Randomskk> their datasheet gives the specifics
[23:23] <Randomskk> the 1u and 4u7s are both tantalums too
[23:23] <Laurenceb_> Randomskk: yeah thats standard
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[23:23] <Laurenceb_> Randomskk: i fried an ADC on one by putting it on a switched rail
[23:23] <Laurenceb_> dont do that :P
[23:23] <daveake> LL smoking is bad anyway; hydrogen just makes it badder sooner
[23:24] <Lunar_Lander> yeah XD
[23:24] <Randomskk> switched rail as in a rail provided by a SMPS or as in..?
[23:24] <Lunar_Lander> e-cigarettes!
[23:24] <Lunar_Lander> what do you think about Bear Grylls?
[23:24] <Laurenceb_> Randomskk: rail with enable
[23:25] <Laurenceb_> so the analogue front end could be turned off
[23:25] <Laurenceb_> soon as i turned it off it fried the adc
[23:25] <Randomskk> aah
[23:25] <Randomskk> oops :P
[23:27] <Laurenceb_> it has to be within +-300mv of the VDD rail
[23:27] <zyp> Randomskk, I don't think I'll bother finding room for more caps on the board now, it should be fine as it is
[23:27] Action: Laurenceb_ has big tants as well
[23:27] <Randomskk> your call, though adc performance is liable to suffer
[23:28] <Laurenceb_> i use a pfet and schokkey diode now
[23:28] <zyp> adc performance is irrelevant, sensors are digital and decoupled as per spec
[23:28] <Randomskk> ah okay then
[23:28] <Laurenceb_> so VDDA runs off VDD when the main analogue rail is off
[23:29] <Randomskk> that's pretty neat
[23:29] <zyp> the sensor datasheets actually specced Al caps
[23:30] <Laurenceb_> its for my datalogger board, so it can hibernate well
[23:30] <Laurenceb_> goes down to a few uA and can still wake from the RTC
[23:30] <Randomskk> cool
[23:32] <griffonbot> Received email: Dave "Re: [UKHAS] habitat upload totals"
[23:39] Action: Laurenceb_ zzz
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[23:47] <griffonbot> Received email: Dave "Re: [UKHAS] habitat upload totals"
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[23:59] <G0DJA> You know, even as a 'rael person' I struggle with the codes to prove I'm a real person at times!
[23:59] <G0DJA> rael = real
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[00:00] --- Wed Feb 15 2012