highaltitude.log.20120109

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[08:50] <SamSilver> http://xkcd.com/984/
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[09:01] <daveake_> Mroning RocketBoy. For your foil balloons, roughly how much can they lift?
[09:02] <RocketBoy> well upto 60g - when they are full
[09:03] <RocketBoy> perhaps a few gs more if you allow them to get into stretch
[09:03] <RocketBoy> but nuch less if you want them to float at a reasonable height
[09:03] <daveake_> Ta. And presumably I'd need to fill a bit less than that to get a float?
[09:04] <RocketBoy> say about 30g
[09:04] <daveake_> Ah you got there first :)
[09:04] <daveake_> I did a quick calc yesterday and reckon I can build a payload for around 30g
[09:05] <daveake_> But I could always use 2 balloons if I can't :)
[09:05] <RocketBoy> yes its challenging but doable
[09:05] Nick change: daveake_ -> daveake
[09:07] <RocketBoy> BTW - I sell foil balloons too :-)
[09:08] <daveake> I know - I checked yesterday :)
[09:09] <number10> will you be doing hell though daveake?
[09:09] <daveake> Not thought much about that bit yet
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[10:02] <fsphil> hellschreiber translates as "light writer", a very apt name I think
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[10:19] <UpuWork> muhahaha
[10:19] <UpuWork> http://imagebin.org/192633
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[10:20] <daveake> :D
[10:23] <fsphil> muhaha?
[10:23] <UpuWork> yes MUHAHAHAHA
[10:23] <fsphil> muhaha!
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[10:23] <UpuWork> Going to put pink LEDs on the outside of the box and do a close encounters piece from 36km
[10:24] <daveake> Size and distance being what they are, it might need have the same impact as in the movie :p
[10:24] <daveake> s/need/not/
[10:24] <UpuWork> indeed
[10:25] <gonzo_> I was looking at some 5watt clusters, thnking how well they would work as a strobe. Just pulsed for a very short duration
[10:26] <gonzo_> have a couple to try in my car ignition timing lamp (replace the crape old flash tube)
[10:26] <daveake> Maybe overinflate a latex ballon with an air/helium mixture, light up the envelope in different colours, and do a low flypast of somewhere with a suitable gullible population?
[10:27] <gonzo_> could poss pulse them from a charged cap, to save putting a big current spike oon the hab power system
[10:27] <gonzo_> how about he/O2, then you can do a cut down in style!
[10:28] <russss> can you overdrive LEDs if you pulse them?
[10:28] <russss> failure is almost always heat-related I think, but the big problem is that they're in a nicely insulated plastic housing
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[10:28] <gonzo_> yep,have seen that
[10:29] <daveake> You can'r exceed the average power rating
[10:29] <russss> yeah, but does that mean for a 1W LED you can do a 100W pulse for 100ms every 10seconds? probably not.
[10:29] <gonzo_> have done that with std leds, wonder how bright you could pulse the hig brightnes ones?
[10:30] <daveake> No, probably not :)
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[10:30] <russss> this calls for a moderately substantial budget to spend on LEDs and some science.
[10:30] <UpuWork> just get a Ultrafire 1200 lumen from deal extreme they pulse as standard and are extremely bright
[10:30] <gonzo_> you would prob burn the whisker wire with the current
[10:31] <gonzo_> I have to make a drive cct for the timing strobe, so will prob be able to do some research (when I get around to it)
[10:33] <SpeedEvil1> russss: Cree has some documents on overdriving power LEDs
[10:33] Nick change: SpeedEvil1 -> SpeedEvil
[10:36] <SpeedEvil> http://www.cree.com/products/pdf/XLamp-Pulsed-Current.pdf
[10:36] <SpeedEvil> russss:
[10:36] <russss> oh cool
[10:37] <russss> "The second type of over-current condition, high-current repetitive pulsing, may or may not result in an early catastrophic
[10:37] <russss> failure of the LED"
[10:37] <russss> ...
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[10:37] <russss> may, or may not.
[10:39] <gonzo_> i will be using an led capable of 100% duty at the required brightnes, but no reason why I can't try some others, when it's working
[10:40] <SpeedEvil> Handy number - for nighttime. A nanowatt a square meter is the amount a magnitude 4 star illuminates the earth
[10:40] <russss> heh
[10:41] <SpeedEvil> About 10% of power going into a good LED comes out as light, maybe a bit more
[10:41] <SpeedEvil> So 1/10th watt can do a patch 10km*10km
[10:42] <gonzo_> interesting info in that cree doc, slow death from electromigration
[10:42] <gonzo_> not a prob for a short flight
[10:42] <SpeedEvil> The real issue is that the efficiency sucks
[10:42] <russss> yeah
[10:43] <gonzo_> if it was seeable with a scope, would be interesting to try and put some data on it
[10:43] <SpeedEvil> you might get approaching the same light if you just use two LEDs driven at nominal, rather than one overdriven
[10:43] <gonzo_> though given the uk wx, prob a wasted effort
[10:43] <SpeedEvil> And batteries limit things too
[10:44] <gonzo_> yep, did think that if trying data
[10:44] <gonzo_> a short pulse for strobe though sounds worth a try
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[10:45] <gonzo_> poss mounted as a separate payload, so any power isues don't affect the main TC&C
[10:45] <gonzo_> and if the wx/vis is poor it could just be omitted
[10:45] <SpeedEvil> You want about an 'integration period' at least of the eye
[10:46] <SpeedEvil> are you thinking of night launch?
[10:46] <SpeedEvil> 20ms pulses are reasonable at ~1hz
[10:46] <gonzo_> yep, think would have to be
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[10:46] <SpeedEvil> This also means you may not need cooling, and can just dangle the bare LEDs
[10:46] <gonzo_> and night - no cams, so soem payload weight avail
[10:47] <gonzo_> 50hz has served us well for tv, so sounds right
[10:48] <gonzo_> I have a light receive for some amateur optical comms experiments, would be interesting to see if it was possible to hear the strobes
[10:48] <daveake> Next step: encode the gps data in the pulses
[10:49] <gonzo_> (and the light dtetctor should fit a std 1-1/4" scope mount, for more gain)
[10:49] Action: fsphil has the bits for optical comms stuffs, but not built yet
[10:49] <fsphil> I'm hoping to do an rtty beacon from a payload using a really bright red led
[10:49] <daveake> WOuld be an interesting project
[10:49] <gonzo_> yep, but as was pointed out, that would make a longer.more pulses. and batt drain probs
[10:50] <gonzo_> would you CW switch it or use an audio carrier phil?
[10:50] <fsphil> CW - totally on and off
[10:51] <SpeedEvil> If you can find the right filter, a laser diode (and a diffuser) may make sense
[10:52] <SpeedEvil> this can give you closing on 10^3 rejection of background
[10:52] <gonzo_> have a look at the amareur light comms sites , there is a not of good info
[10:52] <gonzo_> truns out a non cohearent LED source is better
[10:53] <gonzo_> better for terrestrial comms, as there is less effect from scintilation
[10:53] <gonzo_> there are some videos and audion recording to demo this too
[10:53] <SpeedEvil> Scintillation is less of a problem with a divergant beam IIRC
[10:54] <gonzo_> i;ll dig the urls out later if you remind me
[10:54] <SpeedEvil> naah - I know it can be true for point-point links
[10:54] <gonzo_> they were using focused beam
[10:54] <SpeedEvil> The vast reduction in background noise for daytime may be worth it though
[10:55] <fsphil> the biggest problem with the balloon beacon will be that it's not focused at all
[10:55] <fsphil> power is going to be spread out quite a bit
[10:55] <fsphil> imagine aiming is going to be really difficult too
[10:56] <gonzo_> if you can use a scope to find a star, then should not be so much different
[10:56] <SpeedEvil> Balloons tend to move more than stars
[10:56] <gonzo_> if you also have the telem on radio, should be doable
[10:57] <SpeedEvil> o was it that got a pic of burst?
[10:57] <SpeedEvil> video
[10:57] <fsphil> I remember that, someone got zapped by an electric fence
[10:58] <SpeedEvil> Do they make 4 quadrant APDs?/
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[11:20] <fsphil> ordered some florescent blue paint
[11:20] <fsphil> should be interesting
[11:20] <fsphil> should balance out the pink launches ;)
[11:21] <SpeedEvil> Blue, or cyan
[11:21] <fsphil> they say bluw
[11:21] <fsphil> blue
[11:21] <fsphil> might not look blue when applied
[11:25] <daveake> I was going to buy lime green (Buzz's colour of course) but it didn't stand out that much againsta green background (i.e. grass, trees)
[11:29] <gonzo_> I brought some dayglow orange fablon (think that's the name? the sticky back plastic beloved by Blue Peter)
[11:30] <gonzo_> that was seriously bright. Used it on our rockets
[11:30] <Elwell> russss: see also http://ronja.twibright.com/
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[11:50] <yogibear> hello from Sydney :)
[11:50] <yogibear> (my first time on this channel)
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[11:50] <fsphil> hiya yogibear
[11:51] <yogibear> only just finding out about HA ballooning
[11:51] <fsphil> good evening I should say :)
[11:51] <yogibear> it seems that putting together the payload is 90% of the work, is that about correct?
[11:51] <yogibear> that is, payload plus ground based tracking equipment
[11:51] <fsphil> indeed
[11:52] <fsphil> it's the bit you really need to get right if you want a fair chance of tracking it
[11:52] <yogibear> I'm surprised everyone seems to be soldering their own GPS units, radios etc. - why aren't there low-power ready-made components?
[11:52] <yogibear> I mean, I'd assume there are plenty of people who need a GPS + a radio to transmit a device's location
[11:52] <yogibear> for tracking $whatever, not specifically for ballooning?
[11:52] <fsphil> there are such things, but not for > 10km
[11:53] <yogibear> you mean 10km altitude or 10km horizontal once it's landed?
[11:54] <yogibear> my understanding was that a radio that could only communicate a kilometer on the ground (between buildings) was more than adequate for 35km down line-of-sight
[11:54] <yogibear> and once you've landed, presumably you can send an SMS (if the phone survives)?
[11:55] <yogibear> actually, with an Android phone you could use latitude if you have a data connection (is it naive to think that the Android phone would survive and reestablish a data connection upon landing?)
[11:55] <fsphil> almost all the off-the-shelf trackers use GSM
[11:55] <fsphil> which won't work above a certain altitude
[11:55] <fsphil> (and probably isn't allowed anyway, but sssh)
[11:55] <yogibear> right
[11:56] <fsphil> radio tracking as you say is normally very range limited
[11:56] <fsphil> although we have tricks to get around that
[11:56] <yogibear> so I know I need radio tracking at altitude
[11:56] <fsphil> mainly using big antennas on the ground, and expensive radios
[11:56] <yogibear> and I know you can dramatically increase the range with big antennas
[11:56] <yogibear> I'm not actually that concerned with tracking the thing at altitude
[11:56] <costyn_> yogibear: have you actually found any commercial off the shelf units that have gps and send their data by radio? most of them do it through gprs/gsm which is useless above a couple KM
[11:56] <yogibear> mainly I want to get it back once it's landed, and then get the imagery off the payload
[11:57] <fsphil> gsm might do -- however they don't always work
[11:57] <fsphil> they're mainly used here as a backup to radio tracking
[11:57] <yogibear> costyn: no, I haven't done much research, and what I was referring to was Android
[11:57] <fsphil> the advantage of radio tracking is you (hopefully) know where it is all the time
[11:57] <fsphil> so even if you won't receive it on the ground, you know roughtly where it is
[11:57] <costyn_> yes it's nice to have redundancy in case one of the systems fails
[11:57] <yogibear> I just have a couple of cheap old Android phones around, and they have built in GPS, GSM, camera, and Google Maps on Android already has a feature to share your location
[11:58] <yogibear> okay
[11:58] <fsphil> android phones have been flown before
[11:58] <gonzo_> then you can direction find it using radio when you get to the landing area
[11:58] <yogibear> so the radio tracking (non-GSM based) is the hardest part of the equipment?
[11:58] <yogibear> since it requires both payload and ground-based hardware and it requires some custom soldering?
[11:58] <costyn_> yogibear: pretty much, and th most expensive (the gound radio that is)
[11:58] <fsphil> it's quite simple if you've any electronics experience before
[11:59] <yogibear> so, I have a ton of programming experience (I write software for Androids for a job), but I have zero soldering experience
[11:59] <yogibear> but I have friends who do
[11:59] <fsphil> in .au it's also handy to have an amateur radio license, so you could perhaps use the APRS network
[11:59] <yogibear> I was also surprised to see how big the groups of enthusiasts were who typically launch this sort of thing - most seem to be like 6 guys
[11:59] <yogibear> so clearly I'm underestimating the amount of work that goes into this :)
[11:59] Action: fsphil is a one man team ;)
[12:00] <yogibear> where are you based?
[12:00] <fsphil> n.ireland
[12:00] <fsphil> actually I g et a lot of help from the guys here
[12:00] <fsphil> so I can't say I do it all myself
[12:00] <yogibear> are you in the UKHAS?
[12:01] <fsphil> in as much as anyone is I guess :)
[12:01] <yogibear> I read some stuff from the PRoject Horus guys in South Australia, but haven't spoken to them directly yet
[12:01] <costyn_> yogibear: most people on here are solo-ists; putting together everything themselves but having a few (unskilled) helping hands on launch day; I'm with 2 other guys, but so far I've been doing all the work putting together the payload electronics
[12:01] <gonzo_> the UKHAS is not a formal organisation , yet
[12:01] <costyn_> yogibear: that's Darkside he's on here often
[12:01] <yogibear> so is it fair to say that everyone uses their self-soldered radio and uses fl-digi to decode the signal?
[12:01] <yogibear> dl-fldigi, I mean (I think that was the name)
[12:01] <SpeedEvil> yogibear: not quite
[12:01] <costyn_> yogibear: pretty much ; seems to be the surest way of finding your payload back
[12:02] <SpeedEvil> we use radio modules
[12:02] <SpeedEvil> As they are certified, whereas a self-soldered one would not be
[12:02] <SpeedEvil> but otherwise, yes
[12:02] <fsphil> it's quite a fuzzy org
[12:02] <yogibear> SpeedEvil: right, of course you buy some chip that can do GPS and another module that does radio, but then you still need to solder them together and get the right software in some other chip to actually make the radio send the right things :)
[12:02] <gonzo_> a gathering, rather than an org!
[12:02] <yogibear> I see
[12:03] <SpeedEvil> yes
[12:03] <fsphil> that's pretty much it yogibear
[12:03] <yogibear> how many hours of work do you think one would have to invest from zero to launching the first successful flight? I guess it depends a lot on electronics/radio experience, which I have none of :)
[12:03] <costyn_> yogibear: that sums it up yes, most of us use a microcontroller
[12:03] <fsphil> the NTX2 from Radiometrix is the radio module most commonly used here
[12:03] <yogibear> ah, thanks that's good info
[12:04] <fsphil> and a lot of people use Arduino boards, or plain AVR microcontrollers
[12:04] <yogibear> ah yes I already had that on my list
[12:04] <yogibear> 25mW Radiometrix NTX2 was on my to-buy list
[12:04] <WillDuckworth> worth checking: http://www.ukhas.org.uk/
[12:04] <fsphil> there's a couple who use basic stamps, but we shall not speak of those
[12:04] <gonzo_> we use the NTX2 because the amaraur radio licence in the UK prohibits us from flying amateur kit
[12:04] <yogibear> what is AVR? And what are "Basic stamps"?
[12:04] <costyn_> yogibear: figuring out what you need, deciding what you're going to use, sourcing the parts, doing some soldering/breadboarding, programming the microcontroller, debugging... you're looking at at least several 8 hour days... or at least I've spent quite a lot of time on it so far ; my electronics knowledge was also pretty limited when I started
[12:05] <costyn_> yogibear: http://ukhas.org.uk/general:beginners_guide_to_high_altitude_ballooning
[12:06] <yogibear> costyn_: yeah I read that
[12:06] <costyn_> yogibear: ok )
[12:06] <costyn_> :)
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[12:06] <yogibear> so an advantage of an Arduino board I guess is that there is existing open source software written in the Arduino language that can talk to a NTX2 and $whatever_gps
[12:06] <costyn_> yogibear: the AVR and basic stamp's are brands of microcontrollers
[12:06] <yogibear> I see
[12:07] <costyn_> yogibear: yea there's a lot of existing code on the wiki which you can use in your arduino (which uses an AVR chip)
[12:08] <costyn_> yogibear: but seeing as you have a lot of android programming experience that might be a fun challenge: see if you can get by on launching just the phone in some insulation and getting pics and gps data and retreiving it
[12:08] <fsphil> you could connect an android phone to an ntx2
[12:08] <fsphil> that was done before by CUSF I think
[12:08] <costyn_> yogibear: if the phones are already written off it would be a pretty cheap way ; all the microcontroller bits and pieces do add up
[12:08] <yogibear> right
[12:08] <yogibear> I work at Google (who makes Android) and we have a ton of spare hardware flying around
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[12:09] <yogibear> plus I have a lot of colleagues who also have Android experience
[12:09] <costyn_> yogibear: it's just that most of us have microcontroller/robotics/electronics/ham experience so we use what we know; that might be different in your case
[12:09] <yogibear> so it would be cool in a way to run as much of the software as possible on an Android
[12:09] <fsphil> that would be handy
[12:09] <yogibear> but I suspect I'd use some external radio
[12:09] <yogibear> I've heard the term 'ham' radio before, what is it?
[12:09] <yogibear> I guess I should look on Google/Wikipedia
[12:10] <fsphil> yea, ham = radio amateur
[12:10] <costyn_> would be cool if you could send live data; it does make it *a lot* more fun to track it as it flies along, knowing the location, altitude, temperature, etc;
[12:10] <yogibear> right
[12:11] <yogibear> would it be legal to, say, launch a balloon with just a Android phone in a styrofoam box (somewhere where it's not predicted to land back on a city) and then hope I can locate it via GSM when it's back
[12:11] <yogibear> even if the chance of me nt finding it again is $LARGE?
[12:11] <yogibear> or am I legally required to have e.g. two different ways of finding it again?
[12:12] <yogibear> I know I need a CASA (civil aviation safety authority) license but I haven't yet looked into exactly what they rquire
[12:12] <costyn_> yogibear: sure that'd be legal ; nobody really cares I think
[12:12] <gonzo_> it's worth contacting the local ham/amateur radio club to see if there is any interest there. As they would have people who can assist with the tracking and expect there would be some enthusiasm to join in.
[12:12] <fsphil> no legal limits on tracking
[12:12] <yogibear> cool
[12:12] <fsphil> your limits will be weight, size, that sort of thing
[12:12] <yogibear> maybe I'll just send a phone up first, since it would be almost free and fun to see if it happens t work
[12:12] <yogibear> if not, who cares :)
[12:12] <costyn_> and cold... your android LiPoly or Li-Ion might not like the cold so much
[12:13] <fsphil> yea, it might need heating
[12:13] <fsphil> we've used lipo batteries once, they died as soon as the temperature hit 0c
[12:14] <fsphil> I wonder how the other android/iphone lunches managed that
[12:14] <yogibear> right, the standard batteries are LiIon, I haven't checked what voltage they are (I have some old ex electric helicopter large LiIon battery which would presumably be better able to keep up the voltage in the cold)
[12:14] <yogibear> fsphil: maybe they used an external battery?
[12:14] <costyn_> yogibear: yea although the ballooon and helium are expensive ; make sure to do some tests before hand :) visit your local skydiver club, see if they'
[12:14] <yogibear> Androids all have exchangeable batteries so if you have the right voltage it's trivial to attach something external
[12:14] <costyn_> yogibear: the'll throw out your payload on a chute and see if yu can find it
[12:14] <fsphil> possibly
[12:15] <fsphil> energizer lithium batteries are popular for ballooning, they work well a very low temperatures
[12:15] <fsphil> an external pack could run an android for ages
[12:15] <yogibear> the helium yes ($100-150 I gather) but the balloon and chute seemed cheap ($50 for both?)
[12:15] <yogibear> cool
[12:15] <costyn_> fsphil: lithium = Li-Ion or not?
[12:15] <costyn_> yea external battery pack would be your best bet
[12:15] <fsphil> they're not rechargeable, so not li-ion
[12:15] <fsphil> ?
[12:15] <costyn_> ah ok
[12:16] <yogibear> Lithium-Iron Disulfide
[12:16] <yogibear> according tos ome website :)
[12:16] <fsphil> I'm not good with chemestry :)
[12:16] <yogibear> Ion just mean it has a charge, but Li in some compound with another element would always have a charge
[12:17] <yogibear> so maybe Lithium Iron is also Lithium Ion (sounds the same already anyway!)
[12:17] <yogibear> or maybe the shop misspelled Ion as Iron :)
[12:17] <costyn_> Unlike lithium primary batteries (which are disposable), lithium-ion electrochemical cells use an intercalated lithium compound as the electrode material instead of metallic lithium.
[12:17] <yogibear> anyway batteries sound like a nonproblem
[12:17] <costyn_> wikipedia to the rescue
[12:17] <yogibear> \o/
[12:17] <costyn_> although I'm not sure what that means :)
[12:17] <daveake> All you need to know about Lithium AA cells ...http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/l91.pdf
[12:17] <yogibear> intercalated sounds fancy but I never saw the word before :)
[12:18] <costyn_> yogibear: me either :)
[12:18] <yogibear> (I'm not a native English speaker anyway)
[12:18] <costyn_> yogibear: me either :)
[12:18] <fsphil> Lithium/Iron Disulfide (Li/FeS2)
[12:18] <fsphil> yea
[12:18] <fsphil> I can't use that excuse ;)
[12:18] <daveake> It's probably made up like they do in the adverts ... "Our shampoo uses intercalated ions for shinier hair
[12:19] <fsphil> amazed that is still legal
[12:20] <daveake> "Our balloon is powered by bifidues acti-regularis"
[12:20] <daveake> bifidus
[12:22] <BrainDamage> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLDgQg6bq7o&feature=youtube_gdata
[12:24] <daveake> LMAO
[12:26] <daveake> I think I'll make a payload from prefamulated amulite
[12:27] <fsphil> can't watch that, but I think I know what it is already
[12:27] <Hes> Oolated squiggs!
[12:28] <BrainDamage> the component vital for the success of every project: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Emergency-Stop-Switch-Push-Button-PushButton-Mushroom-/220919257709?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item336fd05a6d#ht_2759wt_721
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[12:44] <yogibear> just a heads up, I'm reading about Arduino boards, Yagi antennas and the like, so if I've suddenly dropped quiet it doesn't mean I didn't appreciate your help so far - thanks heaps!
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[12:45] <costyn> meh... server crashed
[12:45] <NigelMoby> woman driver?
[12:45] <costyn> NigelMoby: some ESX cluster problemz ... not my problem to fix thankfully
[12:46] <costyn> did you guys see this? (not sure if it was posted yet) http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2083556/Meet-girl-blogger-sneaked-inside-Russian-missile-factory--security.html
[12:46] <costyn> awesome pics
[12:46] <NigelMoby> Eek
[12:46] <Laurenceb> thats not a missle factory
[12:46] <Laurenceb> its a vacuum rocket test stand
[12:47] <NigelMoby> Yup, nice big 1 to
[12:47] <costyn> no, it's not a missile factory, but a liquid rocket engine factory
[12:47] <Laurenceb> no
[12:47] <Laurenceb> its a test stand
[12:48] <Darkside> hrmm
[12:48] <Darkside> does fldigi send out stuff before and after the text you enter when you TX rtty..
[12:48] <costyn> Laurenceb: lots more pics : http://lana-sator.livejournal.com/160176.html
[12:48] <Darkside> i'm trying to decode it by hand from a FFT and failing
[12:48] <NigelMoby> err...
[12:48] <Laurenceb> yeah it was on slashdot
[12:48] <Laurenceb> slashdot also called it a missle factory
[12:48] <Laurenceb> *sigh*
[12:48] <costyn> Laurenceb: ah... don't read /. any more unfortunately don't have the time
[12:48] <NigelMoby> think it does ds
[12:49] <Darkside> dammit
[12:49] <Darkside> no wonder i'm getting so confused here
[12:49] <NigelMoby> lol I bet
[12:50] <Darkside> i want to make a nice graphic explaning how RTTY/FSK works
[12:50] <NigelMoby> ooo
[12:51] <Darkside> currently working on a huge talk
[12:51] <Darkside> about project horus
[12:51] <NigelMoby> Ahh, awsome, when is it?
[12:52] <Darkside> next tuesday
[12:52] <Darkside> >_>
[12:52] <Darkside> i want to be doing a rehersal on wednesday night at hackerspace
[12:52] <Darkside> but i dunno if thats going to happen the way we're going
[12:52] <NigelMoby> Eek, educated audience or general public?
[12:52] <Darkside> in between
[12:52] <Darkside> its as linux conf
[12:52] <fsphil> Darkside, it shouldn't
[12:53] <Darkside> at*
[12:53] <Darkside> fsphil: hmm
[12:53] <Darkside> well i'm not seeing the data i expect
[12:53] <NigelMoby> doesn't it blurry out random txt Phil?
[12:53] <NigelMoby> blurt*
[12:53] <fsphil> it may add 0x00 when idle
[12:54] <fsphil> are the start and stop bits at least coming in ok?
[12:55] <Darkside> i guess so
[12:55] <fsphil> ah when receiving NigelMoby, yea. it tries to decode the noise
[12:55] <Darkside> i'm not sure
[12:55] <Darkside> ok, what is 1 and 0
[12:55] <Darkside> is the higher frequency 1 or 0
[12:56] <fsphil> from my notes, /* MARK = Upper tone, Idle, bit */
[12:56] <fsphil> not sure if that's accurate. think it is
[12:56] <Darkside> uhh
[12:56] <Darkside> what does that mean though
[12:56] <Darkside> bit?
[12:57] <fsphil> 1 = higher tone
[12:57] <Darkside> and is the start bit a 0?
[12:57] <fsphil> start bit is 0 yea
[12:57] <Darkside> ok
[12:57] <fsphil> stop bit is 1
[12:57] <fsphil> idle is 1 (if you're idling between bytes)
[12:59] <Darkside> k
[12:59] <Darkside> will try again
[13:02] <Darkside> im gonna map out all the bits i see
[13:05] <fsphil> yea, you should see a pattern in it
[13:06] <NigelMoby> secret code? :o
[13:07] <cuddykid> question about cutdown device: When running wire up from payload to cutdown device (via chute) do is get tangled with chute etc? What's the best way to do it?
[13:10] <Darkside> fsphil: derp
[13:10] <Darkside> i think i know the problem
[13:11] <Darkside> little-endian
[13:11] <fsphil> yeoop
[13:12] <fsphil> lsb first
[13:16] <daveake> I did that one when I wrote my RTTY code
[13:17] <fsphil> I'd like to get rid of the start and stop bits for ssdv, but fldigi uses them for AFC
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[13:41] <Darkside> http://i.imgur.com/Qqka2.png
[13:41] <Darkside> whee
[13:44] <fsphil> pretty!
[13:46] <fsphil> I can see the stop and start bits
[13:46] <fsphil> 7-bit text?
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[13:49] <fsphil> characters look like FTB
[13:51] <Darkside> http://i.imgur.com/SsHxw.png
[13:55] <cuddykid> nice Darkside
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[14:06] <fsphil> I was well out
[14:07] <Darkside> how do i view pours in eagle?
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[14:08] <Darkside> hey vk5gr
[14:08] <vk5gr> ping Darkside
[14:08] <vk5gr> evening
[14:08] <vk5gr> standby - you are about to have a draft title sequence uiploaded
[14:08] <Darkside> cool
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[14:08] <fsphil> ah, I got my stop and start bits mixed up
[14:09] <Darkside> fsphil: ahh
[14:09] <Darkside> vk5gr: i'm working on the talk right now :-)
[14:10] <vk5gr> about 7 minutes to upload - another 4-5 after that to render
[14:11] <Darkside> ok
[14:11] <vk5gr> mind you - it will take a lot or argui9ng to make me change it :-)
[14:11] <Darkside> :P
[14:11] <Darkside> also spoke zarathustra is just... corny
[14:11] <Darkside> just like that bloody news theme
[14:11] <Darkside> vk5gr: i'll be at matts tomorrow night if you want to drop in
[14:12] <Darkside> he's giving me codan 2110 lessons
[14:12] <vk5gr> i wqont have time if I am to get this edited unfortunately - i am going to tickera this weekend so need to get the film finished by Thursday night. I have spent all of tonight on the dam,n titles and concept.
[14:12] <Darkside> ok
[14:12] <vk5gr> no narration means that I need to construct a story out of pictures
[14:12] <vk5gr> was the film being played at the start or end? (I think Tewrry said end?)
[14:13] <Darkside> start i think
[14:13] <Darkside> as an intro to what we do
[14:13] <vk5gr> start would be better - what I am thinking makes a good overall intro to the project
[14:13] <Darkside> yeah
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[14:14] <vk5gr> going to tackle the project in components and show images of each main phase, like prediction/forecasting, balloon ground ops. launches, flight video, tracking and chasing, recovery ops - plus introduce people along the way
[14:14] <Darkside> sounds good
[14:14] <vk5gr> should run about 4 minutes in the end - worst case 4.5 mins
[14:15] <Darkside> that should be fine
[14:15] <vk5gr> (thats when the rest of the soundtrack runs out
[14:17] <vk5gr> bugger - the upload to the USA is going REEEEAAAALLLLLYYYY SLLLOOOOOWWWW - says it is going to take 2 hours? What The? It is only 15Mb
[14:18] <vk5gr> the uploader widget broke - retrying - working a treat now
[14:18] <Darkside> heh ok
[14:19] <vk5gr> 2mins to uploaded
[14:20] <vk5gr> i really need to get DOCISS3.0 - 100mb/2mb would be nice
[14:20] <yogibear> Darkside: you in AU too?
[14:20] <yogibear> Darkside: Are you in SA? (I'm in Sydney)
[14:20] <Darkside> yogibear: yep, SA
[14:20] <Darkside> vk5gr: and I are with the Project Horus team
[14:21] <Darkside> as is shenki and juxta (who isnt online atm)
[14:21] <Darkside> we landed a balloon near you recently :P
[14:21] <yogibear> ah cool
[14:21] <yogibear> next time you do, say hi!
[14:21] <vk5gr> isnt watered a better description Darkside?
[14:21] <yogibear> I've been reading on your website a lot over the weekend
[14:21] <Darkside> hehe
[14:21] <Darkside> yogibear: look at Horus 16
[14:22] <yogibear> oh yes actually I do remember reading that one
[14:22] <yogibear> I remember at the end it said it was getting dangerously close to sydney airport approach paths, and that it was 2km out at sea?
[14:22] <yogibear> or was that another flight
[14:22] <Darkside> thats horus 16
[14:23] <Darkside> we're giving a talk at linuxconf next week
[14:23] <yogibear> oh I see, just reading now, I think it was actually a different one from what I read
[14:23] <yogibear> looks like a crazy long flight :)
[14:24] <Darkside> yeah, we didn't recover it :P
[14:24] <yogibear> I'll look out next time I'm at the beach :)
[14:24] <Darkside> haha
[14:24] <vk5gr> gave up direct ground tracking at swan hill about 700km from home - had amateur operators all over se AUS tracking it the rest of the way with our guys watching on the net for the rest of the flight
[14:25] <cuddykid> is it ok to power cutdown (nichrome wire) using arduino? Or would it be better to use a relay and an alternate power source?
[14:25] <Darkside> cuddykid: relay
[14:25] <vk5gr> Darkside - have a look http://vimeo.com/34783839 - and BE NICE!
[14:25] <cuddykid> cheers Darkside
[14:26] <Darkside> or FET
[14:26] <Darkside> and i'd suggest using a separate power source for the nichrome wire
[14:26] <Darkside> vk5gr: >_>
[14:26] <Darkside> opening text
[14:26] <navrac_> you certainly need some for of switch - be it FET or relay - and also check that the current doesnt drop the processor supply too much
[14:26] <Darkside> vk5gr: facepalm
[14:26] <cuddykid> does anyone know if the battery packs that come with those tiny keychain cams (with chinglish instructions :P) are lipo?
[14:26] <Darkside> cuddykid: yes they are lipo
[14:26] <daveake> I used a mosfet but same power source. I suggest using a separate power source :-). The Arduino rebooted on mine.
[14:27] <cuddykid> brill, thanks guys
[14:27] <vk5gr> and?
[14:27] <daveake> Toshiba do a 5A mosfet in a stretched TO93 package, rated at 5A and with a very low on resistance
[14:28] <cuddykid> daveake: is there a need for a mosfet if using a relay and separate power source?
[14:28] <Darkside> ok thats pretty cool
[14:28] <Darkside> the "it began with a dream" was a bit corny
[14:28] <Darkside> cuddykid: the arduino may not be able to switch a relay directly
[14:28] <navrac_> very nice - but it is a little corny - but what the heck -
[14:28] <Darkside> i'm not 100% on that
[14:28] <daveake> cuddykid, use a relay or mosfet, not both. You can get relays to run direct from the Arduino
[14:29] <fsphil> "In a world... where the sky is NOT the limit..."
[14:29] <vk5gr> the dream was corny - the idea was real - that bit i was thinking of changing anyway
[14:29] <daveake> I prefer mosfet to relay for this
[14:29] <daveake> No moving parts, no load on the Arduino, lighter
[14:29] <vk5gr> fsphil - that I like :-)
[14:30] <navrac_> yep - I'd go with mosfet, less weight and slightly less noisy switching
[14:30] <cuddykid> thanks! :D
[14:30] <Darkside> vk5gr: the horus 2 pic isnt from horus 2
[14:31] <Darkside> then again horus 2 didnt go anywhere
[14:31] <vk5gr> there wasnt one for Horus 2 on the website - and dont look closely at horus 13 either
[14:31] <Darkside> :P
[14:31] <vk5gr> editorial license
[14:31] <navrac_> I think you should go really corny with the intro - and then change the music and change from the dream (which is corny) to reality, which is hard work (and fun)
[14:31] <Darkside> i have pics from horus 13 if you want
[14:31] <vk5gr> send me one if you like
[14:32] <vk5gr> thats what I was thinking navrac
[14:32] <Darkside> hmm
[14:32] <Darkside> not very good pics
[14:32] <vk5gr> Darkside - do I need to intro more than just "Project Horus @ LinuxConf"?
[14:32] <vk5gr> does your talk have a name?
[14:33] <Darkside> it should be Linux.conf.au
[14:33] <Darkside> or LCA2012
[14:33] <Darkside> actually LCA2012 would be better i think
[14:33] <Darkside> http://linux.conf.au/schedule/125/view_talk?day=tuesday
[14:33] <Darkside> talk name is "Tux in Space: High altitude ballooning"
[14:34] <Darkside> but its good as is
[14:34] <vk5gr> I actually wondered about mentioning the conference at all - that way it could be easily used at later talks as well
[14:35] <Darkside> wouldn't be hard to do a re-render without it though
[14:37] <vk5gr> not hard now
[14:37] <navrac_> Just re watched it - I think it's pretty good and polished
[14:37] <vk5gr> not hard no
[14:37] <vk5gr> the intro wording - better if it is:
[14:37] <vk5gr> "It Began with an idea"
[14:38] <vk5gr> "To explore our planet
[14:38] <vk5gr> where the sky is not the limit
[14:39] <vk5gr> in a place few have been before
[14:39] <UpuWork> "To boldly go.." now wait
[14:39] <vk5gr> slightly less corny?
[14:39] <UpuWork> "on giant leap" no hang on
[14:39] <UpuWork> "Before this decade is out.."
[14:39] <vk5gr> now thats not helpful :-)
[14:39] <Darkside> damn i should go to bed
[14:39] <UpuWork> sorry :)
[14:39] <vk5gr> well one of the flights nearly coincided with the moon landing :-)
[14:39] <vk5gr> (aniversary)
[14:39] <Darkside> i need to be able to work on this talk tomorrow...
[14:39] <vk5gr> you mean today?
[14:40] <UpuWork> My talk is entitled "what I did one Saturday in October"
[14:40] <Darkside> yes
[14:40] <Darkside> A funny thing happened on the way to the launch site
[14:40] <vk5gr> so - shall I keep going from this point - or do you really not like the soundtrack from 2001?
[14:40] <Darkside> ii'd say stick with it for the moment
[14:40] <vk5gr> (hell you can always leave the sound off
[14:41] <Darkside> well i'm still trying to confirm if we even have sound...
[14:41] <vk5gr> ok - time for sleep - some of us have to go to work in 5 hours
[14:41] <Darkside> i really hope we do...
[14:41] <Darkside> hehe
[14:41] <navrac_> well you could do it that way . go for the it began with etc then put up 'to boldly go' and then put a red line through it and the same with one giant leap and then replace them with 'it started with an idea - that grew into an obsession
[14:41] <daveake> "201:1 A (somehwre near space but not really space just very very high) Odyssey"
[14:41] <daveake> *2011:
[14:42] <Darkside> navrac_: getting a bit *too* corny there :P
[14:42] <navrac_> well I'm just good at corny :-)
[14:43] <vk5gr> 2001: A Near Space Oddesey :-)
[14:43] <vk5gr> we should have been to Jupiter by now if Arthur C Clarke was right!
[14:43] <vk5gr> in fact we should have 2 suns by now!
[14:43] <navrac_> trouble is its a linux conf - so the first question will be how do you define 'near space'
[14:44] <UpuWork> we could have been to Jupiter by now if Arthur C Clarke was given a large budget
[14:44] <vk5gr> yes - we probably could :-)
[14:44] <UpuWork> navrac see GPSL there is currently an argument going on about that now
[14:44] <vk5gr> well - time to give up now - Mark I hope to have a lot more of the footage cut together tomorrow night - and should have a working draft on vimeo for you on Wednesday
[14:45] <Darkside> vk5gr: sounds good
[14:45] <Darkside> thanks a lot for doing this :-)
[14:45] <vk5gr> no probs
[14:45] <vk5gr> lucky i completed my tropfest and salos films already
[14:45] <vk5gr> talk to you tomorrow night maybe -
[14:46] <vk5gr> seeya
[14:46] <Darkside> cya
[14:46] <vk5gr> nite all
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[14:48] <fsphil> UpuWork, Dan's argument doesn't seem to be going anywhere. Shame too, I agree with it
[14:50] <fsphil> the media is lazy enough without us helping them getting facts wrong :)
[14:52] <UpuWork> sky down black it must be space
[14:52] <UpuWork> black up even
[14:55] <fsphil> if we're going by environment, we could say it's near-mars :)
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[15:09] Nick change: SAIDias -> W0OTM
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[15:20] <yogibear> I'm off to bed, catch you geeks another time :)
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[15:22] <fsphil> there are geeks here? eek!
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[15:23] <daveake> Beware of geeks bearing gifs
[15:33] <number10> any radio hams got a few moments to check an anwer on a sample paper I think is wrong?
[15:33] <number10> answe
[15:33] <number10> r
[15:33] <SpeedEvil> Shoot
[15:34] <number10> I can allow (a UK licensed) person to use my station unsupervised?
[15:35] <number10> I think question 5 in this paper is wrong http://www.rsgb.org/tutors/intermediate/pdf/intermediate-sample-paper-2.pdf
[15:36] <gonzo_> I'd say, yes. If they are using their own callsign
[15:36] <gonzo_> using yours, you have to be there (I think)
[15:36] <SpeedEvil> The answer would seem to be simple
[15:36] <SpeedEvil> Do you require a seperate licence to use a new radio
[15:36] <number10> thats what I thought - so the answer in that sample paper is wrong - infact the question has no correct answer
[15:37] <SpeedEvil> It may differ if you've constructed the thing yourself, I'm not sure.
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[15:37] <navrac_> if they use their oqn callsign then no - if they use yours then yes they have to be supervised#
[15:38] <gonzo_> a club/special event call is a special case
[15:39] <number10> the question says which one of the following is NOT allowed for an intermediate A) Beacon transmissions.
[15:39] <number10> B) Leaving your data transmitter running whilst out at work.
[15:39] <number10> c) Operation of a hidden transmitter intended for a direction finding contest.
[15:39] <Randomskk> no, it doesn't
[15:39] <Randomskk> it says what is not covered
[15:39] <number10> and d) Allowing another licensed radio amateur to use your transmitter whilst you are out at work.
[15:39] <Randomskk> not what is not allowed
[15:40] <Randomskk> and indeed, someone else using your transmitter is not covered by your license. their use of it would be covered by their own license.
[15:40] <number10> ahh
[15:40] <Randomskk> whereas beacons, remote operation and hidden transmitters are all covered by your own license
[15:41] <number10> cheers - mental block here
[15:41] <russss> that is sneaky.
[15:41] <number10> thanks Randomskk
[15:41] <Randomskk> it is a bit sneaky and I suspect they might not use a similarly worded question in a real exam
[15:41] <Randomskk> but tbh the pass mark is like, stupidly low
[15:41] <russss> also I assume you've seen http://www.hamtests.co.uk/ because it's way nicer than the sample papers?
[15:42] <LazyLeopard> Yeah, definitely sneaky. ;)
[15:42] <number10> yes russs
[15:42] <fsphil> that's evil
[15:42] <russss> just checking :)
[15:42] <Randomskk> but basic exam technique, you'd get (d) by eliminating a, b and c
[15:42] <number10> cheers russs
[15:42] <LazyLeopard> They like sneaky.
[15:43] <number10> yes randomskk - I did assume that to be the correct answer - but was convinced they had messed up - I'll hold off sending an email to complain ;)
[15:44] <number10> thanks guys for your help
[15:44] <LazyLeopard> They want you to think before answering... ;)
[15:44] <LazyLeopard> When're you taking it?
[15:45] <number10> yes - thinking is getting harder as I get older - I tend to rush - next week got the foundation and intermediate
[15:50] <navrac_> i must admit I'm thinking of taking the RAE, did actually read up on the licence about 28 years ago - but there were only two tests a year then so got distracted and missed on then got too busy to get round to it
[15:51] <navrac_> tried the hamtests and got 100% on a few practise foundation papers - that one you were looking at seemed a bit tougher - the electronics is ok but the license bits were a bit tricky
[15:54] <number10> that one was intermediate, you dont have to do a course navrac, so you can just read up and take exams (plus practical) - got to pop home now
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[16:32] <daveake> The name's Pond, James Pond ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=5L8aMI2dwf4 :)
[16:33] <SpeedEvil> Neat
[16:33] <SpeedEvil> Do it right, and the cover is even insulating
[16:33] <fsphil> I preferred James Pond 2: Robocod
[16:36] <daveake> It'd short out his circuits
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[16:56] <daveake> Ahm this is what I need :-) http://www.quadvision.co.uk/products/multi-screen-lcd-stands/tree-vt4x1.htm
[16:57] <daveake> They do 3x2 and 4x2 as well, but I don't have that many screens :p
[16:57] <fsphil> ooooooh
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[16:59] <daveake> As used by Terry Pratchett, so they must be good :D
[16:59] <fsphil> doesn't he have two of them, stacked?
[16:59] <fsphil> I remember seeing him sitting in front of like 8 screens
[17:00] <daveake> 3x2 according to the article on that site, but he may have upgraded :)
[17:01] <fsphil> ah, that might have been it
[17:01] <fsphil> I know there where two levels
[17:01] <fsphil> looked mighty
[17:01] <fsphil> no price mentioned
[17:02] <fsphil> nooo.. I don't need that many screens
[17:02] <daveake> Yes you do :)
[17:02] <daveake> I have a single row of 3 at the moment, plus a separate one for the laptop. I have 2 more monitors arriving this week, all 1920x1200
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[17:02] <fsphil> yikes
[17:03] <daveake> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ergotron-DS100-Quad-Monitor-Desk-Stand/dp/B000SUM0LO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1326128540&sr=8-1
[17:03] <fsphil> there are three screens on my desk, but two are separate PCs and one is a telly
[17:03] <daveake> I bought a new desktop PC just before Xmas, and specced that to have 4 DVI outputs
[17:04] <fsphil> hehe "SeaFrance goes into liquidation" ... I'm easily amused
[17:04] <daveake> So the plan is 4 for those, plus 1 for the new laptop. The last monitor is a cheapo VGA only one, and that can hide in the corner playing TV from the old laptop which has a USB TV dongle
[17:04] <daveake> lol
[17:05] <daveake> I'm going to try the new Anthony Worrall Thompson diet. Cheese and wine followed by porridge.
[17:05] <fsphil> two screens is enough for me. but a stand that held both would be neat
[17:05] <fsphil> the wall bracket I have atm is very weak, the screens sits at an angle
[17:05] <fsphil> very annoying
[17:06] <fsphil> I have to prop up one side with a speaker
[17:06] <daveake> http://www.amazon.co.uk/MDM05-Multi-Screen-Bracket-Monitor/dp/B001H2TODY/ref=sr_1_2?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1326128747&sr=1-2
[17:06] <fsphil> aye, that would be perfect
[17:07] <fsphil> wonder if my screens would fit
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[17:07] <daveake> Some do up to 24" screens
[17:07] <fsphil> this is 24"
[17:08] <fsphil> or.. "you will need to buy two additional long arms modules"
[17:08] <fsphil> will measure later
[17:09] Nick change: theycallmetim -> imrcly
[17:09] <fsphil> ooh, or vertically stacked
[17:10] <nosebleedkt> hi
[17:10] <nosebleedkt> yo
[17:10] <fsphil> yohi
[17:10] <daveake> sushi
[17:10] <nosebleedkt> lol
[17:10] <nosebleedkt> :P
[17:10] <fsphil> euuu
[17:10] Action: fsphil would starve in Japan
[17:11] <nosebleedkt> what is
[17:11] <nosebleedkt> BOFH
[17:11] <nosebleedkt> ?
[17:11] <fsphil> me on a monday
[17:11] <fsphil> oh, today is monday
[17:11] Action: fsphil deletes a random home folder
[17:11] <daveake> Bastard Operator From Hell
[17:12] <nosebleedkt> where is natrium42
[17:12] <nosebleedkt> i added him in fb
[17:12] <nosebleedkt> and he havent answered!
[17:12] <nosebleedkt> and yesterday some man start pm me
[17:13] <nosebleedkt> f*** gays
[17:13] <nosebleedkt> and he is from sparta
[17:13] <nosebleedkt> lol
[17:13] <nosebleedkt> !
[17:13] <SpeedEvil> http://www.dealextreme.com/p/tattoo-kit-2-machines-gun-54-color-inks-power-supply-needles-set-equipment-97019
[17:13] <fsphil> woo, nearly home time
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[17:34] <daveake> I've ordered some foil balloons. Dunno when I'll get round to it but I'll build a <=30g payload to have aplay with those
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[17:43] <number10> great - can you pad the FSA03s if you are sending some my way daveake ;)
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[17:43] <daveake> lol
[17:44] <daveake> Sure ... let me know what freq NTX2 you'd like too :D
[17:44] <number10> :) will do
[17:45] <number10> have you weighed an NTX2
[17:47] <navrac> 5.7g I think
[17:48] <daveake> I've got 5.1g in my spreadsheet
[17:49] <number10> I wonder how much the rfm22b modules compare - I'll ask james when he is next on
[17:49] <daveake> Dunno, but he will
[17:50] <daveake> Every 0.1g counts when you're trying to keep below 30g!
[17:51] <navrac> I've got one here - but Its in my workshop and wired in - but i'll try to weigh it later for you
[17:51] <daveake> Rough calc is 8g for the FSA03, 8 for an AAA, 1 for Arduino Mini Pro, 5 for the NTX2.
[17:51] <navrac> I chose it as it weighs a lot less
[17:51] <daveake> I don't know how much those power switchers weigh but I guess 1-2g.
[17:52] <daveake> Plus a bit of nylon and some wire
[17:52] <daveake> and a bit of insulation
[17:52] <number10> sounds like fun - apart from the one way trip
[17:52] <navrac> on my spreadsheet ive got the rfm at <2g
[17:53] <daveake> 1-way if you don't chase, or it hits the water
[17:53] <daveake> or it lands near someone who wants an fsa03....
[17:53] <number10> :)
[17:54] <navrac> 8g for AAA. 1.8g for arduino mini pro, 2g for RFM22b inc daughter board , 2g for voltage regs, 1.5g for differential pressure sensor and 1.2g for gps inc aerial
[17:54] <daveake> " 1.2g for gps inc aerial" ???
[17:55] <daveake> blimey
[17:55] <navrac> yep - although in all fairness I trashed mine so it doesnt work - but thats how much it weighed
[17:55] <daveake> wow
[17:56] <navrac> its a ublock6 on a tiny pcb with an aerial built round it - its called a
[17:56] <navrac> hold on old age set in - Ive forgotten what its called
[17:56] <number10> lol we have all the oldies on at the mo
[17:57] <daveake> lol
[17:57] <number10> anyway daveakes nodded off
[17:57] <daveake> Yeah, it's time for my afternoon na....zzzzzzzzzzz
[17:58] <navrac> radionova
[17:58] <daveake> I did feel old earlier when I was clearing out some old books and found a VT100 reference guide
[17:58] <number10> pf1 to pf4
[17:59] <navrac> my entire payload is just under 20g - excluding the h2 valve assembly which adds another 6g
[17:59] <navrac> n2
[17:59] <navrac> he even....
[18:00] <navrac> minds going....
[18:00] <daveake> daisy daisy ...
[18:00] <number10> thats pretty good navrac
[18:01] <daveake> Yes, impressive
[18:01] <navrac> yep - im pleased - but I think james will beat me to the first sub20g launch as he's using the same kit but without the differentilal pressure sensor - and he's faster at building prototypes than me
[18:02] <navrac> work keeps getting in the way - and this life stuff
[18:02] <daveake> I thought he was using fsa03
[18:02] <daveake> Work gets in the way here too, but fortunately I don't have a life :)
[18:02] <navrac> I pointed him at the antenova gps and I think they should have been delivered to him by now
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[18:03] <navrac> was that nipping out for a bit of life there?
[18:03] <daveake> that was hitting ESC in the wrong window :)
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[18:05] <daveake> navrac Where to get an antenova gps?
[18:05] <daveake> Their website seems to be useless atm
[18:05] <navrac> I'm curious to see how james gets on with the antenova using his pcb free technique he used on the pico6mkII
[18:05] <navrac> mouser
[18:05] <daveake> tvm
[18:05] <navrac> ill get the partnumber about £21 plus £12 delivery
[18:05] <daveake> anetnova site says "we're moving our site; merry xmas" :/
[18:06] <daveake> Expensive delivery
[18:06] <navrac> from the US - look for the radionova on mousers site
[18:06] <daveake> ta
[18:06] <navrac> 237-M10382-A1
[18:07] <navrac> Im not good at eagle, did the pad layout wrong and the pads were under the chip so i used a hot air gun to solder it and burnt the aerial off the top
[18:08] <daveake> Whoops
[18:08] <navrac> yep, bit miffed
[18:09] <navrac> tucked in the instructions in tiny print was 'bake the component for 8 hours before attempting to use hot air soldering
[18:09] <navrac> not good at instructions
[18:09] <daveake> lol
[18:09] <daveake> that's to remove any humidty inside ... that biols under the soldering heat
[18:09] <daveake> *boils
[18:10] <navrac> well mine 'boiled' quite nicely
[18:10] <daveake> :)
[18:10] <navrac> well it was a paint stripper gun, probably got too enthusiastic
[18:12] <navrac> basically im building a tx+GPS+dc-dc converter shield for the mini pro board
[18:14] <navrac> small enough to fit in the neck of baloons to measure the burst pressure of the balloons and then use that to dump helium when it gets too critical
[18:14] <number10> how far off is that navrac
[18:15] <navrac> well the big delay is getting a proper pcb made which i think is a month off. The homebrew pcb's just arent up to it
[18:17] <navrac> im doing another board without the gps to go below the baloon which has an rfm22b as a receiver and operates a remote ballast dump valve, although Im toying with the idea of having something which goes through the neck so the ballast is in the main part
[18:21] <number10> you'll have to do a wiki page so we can all see
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[18:22] <navrac> yep, my son was meant to be putting a wordpress site for me to put stuff on
[18:23] <navrac> since i leant him my domain 2 years ago and he's put loads of sites up there and changed all the passwords
[18:25] <Dan-K2VOL> navrac
[18:27] <Dan-K2VOL> we've flight tested the MPXV5010DP and MPXV5004DP as a great balloon differential pressure sensors, analog 0-5v output.
[18:27] <Dan-K2VOL> flown on this flight, there are graphs and data files from the output: http://wiki.whitestarballoon.com/doku.php?id=launches:spitball:1
[18:32] <navrac> I'm using the same range of sensors. I wanted the 3v3 supply one - but its £16 extra postage.so I've put a 1.5V-5V step up to run it
[18:32] <navrac> my main aim is to gather data on what is the typical bursting point so i only dump helium when i really need to
[18:33] <navrac> I had a look at your data - very interesting and nicely done
[18:34] <Dan-K2VOL> thank you
[18:34] <Dan-K2VOL> you have a good plan
[18:35] <Dan-K2VOL> I wonder if you could put sunscreen on a balloon to protect it from UV :-P
[18:35] <navrac> yes thats the big variable isnt it - the burst pressure when it first gets up compared to the burst pressure after a days exposure to uv
[18:36] <navrac> I guess I could just blow up the baloons at ground level to get the measurements - but nowhere near as much fun
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[18:39] <SpeedEvil> You'd need to go to the pole - need -40C
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[18:41] <navrac> ah true
[18:42] <navrac> well its only -40 on the way up - it warms a bit at 40km
[18:42] <navrac> but we dont get many days that cold round here.. just feels it
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[18:47] <daveake> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAXzDESs2iI&feature=related LOL
[18:49] <navrac> I've got the pickit 3 - I must admit it was frustrating to have to keep opening the A2 wallchart to work out which pin was which
[18:50] <daveake> He seems to have thing about PICs ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sSFUVL-bqc&list=UUcs0ZkP_as4PpHDhFcmCHyA&index=33&feature=plcp
[18:50] <cuddykid> oh, smoky - I think I might have just fried a transistor :P
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[18:59] <navrac> Dan-K2VOL what did you use to keep the temperature for the sensors above 10 degrees. I'm using a couple of resistors as heater elements and a temp sensor for feedback, but I'd like to come up with something a bit neater
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[19:11] <cuddykid> marlin don't do mosfets as far as I can see :(
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[19:18] <navrac> N10AH
[19:18] <navrac> to220 mosfet
[19:19] <navrac> i use rapidonline for small orders, better price and better range.
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[19:19] Nick change: Lando-SpacePimp -> Lando-Uni
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[19:22] <Dan-K2VOL> navrac I just put a linear power regultor nearby and ran a temp sensor there to tell afterwards if they stayed in range. It was a short flight so it was fine, and I had lots of extra battery power. I wouldn't bother with the 5004 again, it was needless resolution, the 5010DP has much lower temp range
[19:23] <Dan-K2VOL> you can see the 5010 and 5004 charts of the same pressure flight on that flight analysis
[19:24] <Dan-K2VOL> http://wiki.whitestarballoon.com/doku.php?id=launches:spitball:1
[19:25] <navrac> it looks like the 5% error range is only 0 to 85 so i was palnning to keep it above 0 - it looks like at -20 the error is 10%
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[19:26] <Dan-K2VOL> ah true
[19:26] <Dan-K2VOL> you can keep it very warm just by utilizing solar radiation
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[19:27] <Dan-K2VOL> paint it's covering black and seal all holes against air drafts
[19:28] <navrac> well i envisage the whole package being in the neck of the balloon. If I can get the sealing to work ok
[19:28] <Dan-K2VOL> I've been involved with many flights that used three layers of clear bubble wrap, over the PCB taled to a black piece of cardboard
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[19:28] <Dan-K2VOL> they all remained above 0C for daytime flights
[19:30] <navrac> well i hope eventually to be able to be able to control it so it dumped ballast at night - so i guess its only daytime i need accuracy as i wont dump helium at night
[19:31] <navrac> but thats a long way off - I think the furst few flights are just to establish a typical burst pressure
[19:32] <fsphil-laptop> (random) amateur GSM service .. would that be possible?
[19:32] <cuddykid> just checking before I purchase - these should be alright when dealing with nichrome cutdown? - http://www.rapidonline.com/Electronic-Components/TO-220-Logic-level-power-MOSFETs-N-Channel-77687/?sid=69c93642-b108-458c-8319-d52cf0e31b29
[19:34] <navrac> should be ok - but nichrome is very low resistance - 2inches is 1 ohm
[19:34] <cuddykid> cheers :)
[19:35] <navrac> so at 1.5v battery with an inch of nichrome thats 1.5A
[19:35] <navrac> so well within the limits of those
[19:35] <daveake_> Comes in different guages of course so check the ohms per inch/cm before you buy
[19:36] <navrac> yep the figures i quote are for the really thin stuff
[19:36] <daveake_> gauge
[19:37] <daveake_> Yeah, I use the thin stuff. The thicker stuff you'd need quite a bit
[19:38] <navrac> 32 gauge is 5.8ohms/foot
[19:39] <navrac> http://www.rapidonline.com/Cables-Connectors/125g-Reel-32SWG-Nichrome-Wire-05-0535
[19:39] <navrac> although I've been experimenting with the tip of an electronic cigarette
[19:41] <daveake_> Also possible to use a resistor and wrap the nylon round it, but it might not work many times!
[19:43] <cuddykid> that's annoying - the mosfet would be 50p but delivery just under £5! Might have to resort to eBay
[19:44] <daveake_> I use this one - http://uk.farnell.com/toshiba/2sk2989-tpe6-f/mosfet-n-ch-5a-50v-to92/dp/1714337
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[19:45] <daveake_> Saves a bit of weight vs TO-220 :D
[19:48] <cuddykid> Thanks daveake_!
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[19:48] <navrac> yep - but farnell have a minimum £20 for credit card orders.
[19:48] <navrac> free delivery though
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[19:58] <cuddykid> navrac: do they have a limit on debit card orders?
[19:59] <navrac> hmm not sure - never tried - i think its the same as credit cards
[19:59] <cuddykid> I'll try now - hopefully not!
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[20:03] <cuddykid> yep :(
[20:04] <navrac> Just checked their t&C's - it only mentions the charge for credit cards
[20:04] <daveake_> cuddykid let me have your address and I'll post one to you
[20:04] <navrac> :-(
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[20:04] <cuddykid> navrac: yeah, then when I went to order it said debit cards too :(
[20:04] <cuddykid> daveake_: that's very kind of you, I'll PM you :)
[20:04] <daveake_> np
[20:05] <chris_99> navrac, whats an electronic cigarette
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[20:22] <navrac> www.liberro.co.uk
[20:25] <navrac> the liberro ones have a tip with a hole through it that you can feed a wire through to the heating element
[20:26] <navrac> the battery part has a connector which also has a hole through it so it makes it easy to wire
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[20:32] <chris_99> interesting, so you're using the cigratte thing as a heater
[20:44] <navrac> well mainly to smoke really, but as an engineer you look at things and wonder what else they could be used for
[20:44] <navrac> and as a cut down device they looked quite handy
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[00:00] --- Tue Jan 10 2012