highaltitude.log.20120108

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[07:31] <daveake__> WillDickworth Launching today?
[07:31] Nick change: daveake__ -> daveake
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[08:58] <Upu> damn spammers are back on the Wiki
[08:59] <Darkside> damn
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[09:23] <jcoxon> morning
[09:24] <Upu> morning
[09:24] <Upu> spammers fixed and blocked
[09:24] <number10> morning
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[09:24] <RocketBoy> mornin'
[09:24] <jcoxon> hey RocketBoy
[09:25] <RocketBoy> yo - no news I suppose?
[09:25] <RocketBoy> on t mk2
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[09:26] <jcoxon> no nothing
[09:26] <jcoxon> navac picked up a signal in the evening
[09:26] <jcoxon> but couldn't decode much
[09:30] <number10> It would have been interesting to see the French listeners track it
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[09:35] <jcoxon> i think the most frustrating thing is that everyone was ready to listen for it
[09:35] <jcoxon> seems that the more publicity you make the more likely it fails :-p
[09:41] <RocketBoy> yeah - thats how it goes - when I was at work I noticed that to find the worst bugs in software all you needed to do was get the most seniour person you could find to give a demo to
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[09:47] <cuddykid> hi WillDuckworth_
[09:47] <WillDuckworth_> morning morning
[09:49] <WillDuckworth_> how's the glider going?
[09:52] <cuddykid> well& it's taken a turn for the better, a few days ago I emailed flyingwings.co.uk to see if they could donate some carbon fibre...
[09:53] <cuddykid> turns out, the guy is super interested in the project and has past experience with drones/uavs
[09:53] <cuddykid> he's now building me a custom flying wing (that can house all the electronics etc) - currently he says it's going to have a 55inch wing span!
[09:53] <WillDuckworth_> excellent - you seem to get lucky when acquiring kit.... ;)
[09:54] <cuddykid> because of the wings inherent instability, I'm going to run it with a APM2.0 (need to pre-order one)
[09:54] <cuddykid> yeah! :P
[09:54] <cuddykid> He thinks that it should run fine with the APM
[09:54] <WillDuckworth_> is that ardupilot?
[09:54] <cuddykid> yeah
[09:55] <WillDuckworth_> v2 looks good for its size
[09:55] <cuddykid> seems to be mature and stable so not a bad call I think
[09:55] <cuddykid> yup - slightly cheaper than v1 when you add in IMU shield etc
[09:55] <WillDuckworth_> exciting stuff
[09:56] <cuddykid> so, current plan is to order a v2 then have a play around etc! I've still got the glider I'm building - I'm going to keep that one going to just to see how it flys etc
[09:58] <cuddykid> how's your next payload coming along? all completed?
[09:58] <WillDuckworth_> yep - just putting final bits together now actually. Then running some simulated flights to check cutdown and stuff
[09:59] <cuddykid> brill
[10:00] <cuddykid> have you gone for pyro or nichrome cutdown?
[10:00] <cuddykid> I'm going to include a nichrome one on next flight because of the mysterious floating ability of the hwoyees!
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[10:06] <WillDuckworth_> going pyro, seems to work ok.
[10:16] <jcoxon> WillDuckworth_, you experiementing with RFM22b still?
[10:19] <WillDuckworth_> hi jcoxon, yep - still having a look, what do you make of it so far?
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[10:21] <jcoxon> just to point out i've started a wiki page on them
[10:21] <jcoxon> they are very good
[10:22] <jcoxon> though they can be a little tricky
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[10:52] <jcoxon> WillDuckworth http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:rfm22b
[10:53] <Upu> thanks for that jcoxon I might give that a go too
[10:54] <jcoxon> need to test this idea about TX_ANT
[10:55] <jcoxon> might explain the failure yesterday
[10:56] <Upu> given the difference in frequency you could run one of these alongside a "normal" NTX2 launch
[10:56] <Upu> on a "proper" balloon :)
[10:56] <jcoxon> sure
[10:57] <jcoxon> Upu, the freq can be what ever you want it to be :-p
[10:57] <Upu> exactly, get it in the same 3000Hz bandwidth of the NTX2 so we can decode both at once :)
[10:57] <Upu> *Radio not NTX2
[10:57] <jcoxon> ntx2 drift :-)
[10:57] <jcoxon> have fun
[10:57] <Upu> think the drift would spoil that
[10:57] <Upu> snap
[11:00] <Upu> well hopefully Ava2 PCB's will be turning up next week so I can start looking to get airborne
[11:00] <jcoxon> yeah i seem to be proping up the launch schedule
[11:00] <jcoxon> and my flights usually fail :-p
[11:00] <Upu> you're pushing the boundaries
[11:00] <jcoxon> :-)
[11:01] <Upu> goes with the territory
[11:01] <Upu> weather isn't exactly great for launches either, when was the last one that actually landed in the UK ? October ?
[11:01] <jcoxon> yeah
[11:01] <jcoxon> might find some high pressure systems in the next 2 months
[11:01] <jcoxon> but its been quite windy recently
[11:03] <Upu> sure 2012 will be probably one of the busiest years we've had
[11:04] <WillDuckworth_> :)
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[11:14] <fsphil> hopefully some launches further north than cambridge this year :)
[11:14] <Upu> Seconded
[11:15] <Upu> At the moment I might as well just put a Yagi pointing to the Netherlands at 0'
[11:15] <Darkside> i'm hoping for some launches further south
[11:15] <Upu> hey Darkside
[11:15] <Darkside> hi
[11:15] <Upu> did you see we can't actually run iGates here in the UK ?
[11:15] <Darkside> wait what?
[11:15] <Darkside> you can't run a RX only system?
[11:15] <Upu> legally we can't run them
[11:16] <Upu> yeah you can run RX only but we can't relay packets
[11:16] <Upu> which is the back bone of APRS
[11:16] <Darkside> you mean relay onto the internet?
[11:16] <Darkside> or do you mean you can't run a *digipeateR*
[11:16] <Upu> sorry yes
[11:16] <Upu> duh too early yes that
[11:16] <Darkside> thats interesting
[11:16] <Darkside> do people still run them anyway/
[11:16] <Upu> Firstly we aren't allowed to run unattended without a NoV
[11:17] <Upu> and secondly you can't re-transmit a message that wasn't intended for you
[11:17] <Upu> yay for yet more stupid UK laws
[11:17] <Darkside> lol
[11:17] <Upu> Give it 5 years we will all be a "threat to the state" and shutdown
[11:18] <Darkside> but i see digi's around the UK
[11:18] Action: fsphil is running one right now ;)
[11:18] <Upu> yeah not sure if they are just ignoring the silly law or have a NoV in place
[11:18] <Upu> you see the above I suspect is the former
[11:18] <fsphil> possibly
[11:19] <fsphil> you can transmit packets only made by yourself, and only when you are present
[11:19] <Darkside> it'll be interesting when i'm over there
[11:19] <fsphil> which basically rules out digipeating totally, unless it's repeating one of my own packets
[11:19] <Darkside> i'm not going to be able to fit M/ on my callsigns
[11:20] <Darkside> M/VK5QI won't fit in the APRS standard system
[11:20] <Darkside> so i'll just have to use VK5QI
[11:20] <Darkside> which is going to confuse a hell of a lot of people
[11:20] <fsphil> I've only seen one non-uk station here, and it didn't bother prefixing
[11:20] <Darkside> i don't think i'll bother :P
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[11:25] <Darkside> i think my mission, when i go to the UK next
[11:25] <Darkside> is to try and get into as many igates as possible along the way
[11:25] <Darkside> including while midair
[11:27] <fsphil> which reminds me of, http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/10/30
[11:28] <Darkside> haha
[11:28] <Darkside> i just need to ensure i get a window seat
[11:28] <fsphil> I was told of for using a camera
[11:30] <Darkside> during takeoff/landing?
[11:30] <fsphil> landing
[11:30] <Darkside> yeah, they don't like that
[11:30] <fsphil> I got the takeoff ok
[11:30] <Darkside> a flight attendant told me the real reason is so you aren'y distracted or have something that can fly around the cabin if there's turbulence
[11:31] <fsphil> that's a fair point
[11:31] <Darkside> back in a bit, i have dishes to do
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[12:49] <daveake__> jcoxon What was that step-up switcher you used to run from the single AAA?
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[13:31] Nick change: SamSilver -> SamSIlver
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[13:41] <fsphil> I think he's using http://www.sparkfun.com/products/9216
[13:41] <Laurenceb_> http://www.semtech.com/analog-controllers-sensors-converters/signal-conditioners/sx8723/
[13:41] <Laurenceb_> hardcore
[13:41] <daveake__> Cheers
[13:42] <daveake__> Buzz3 may be pink ... http://i.imgur.com/qObeL.jpg
[13:42] <fsphil> eek!
[13:43] <daveake__> s'ok, I'll pay Upu his royalty fee :p
[13:43] <number10> wonder what the theme is - I can see some rolly stick on eyes
[13:44] <daveake__> Julie thought that pack might come in handy
[13:44] <fsphil> http://blog.brandyourself.com/wp-content/uploads/Smiley-face-sphere-happy-sm.jpg
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[13:44] <daveake__> :)
[13:45] <daveake__> Cloud3 may well be an Apollo command module
[13:46] <SamSIlver> http://www.rapidonline.com/Electronic-Components/1-8mm-Pink-LED-High-Power-750mcd-55-1656
[13:46] <fsphil> make it beagle2-shaped
[13:46] <number10> :) - daveake james yesterday mentioned dc-dc coverter is LiPower from sparkfun
[13:47] <NickB1> yes he used the LiPower
[13:47] <daveake__> TVM
[13:47] <fsphil> or, a black sphere with a radiation sign on it and some russian text
[13:47] <daveake__> lol
[13:48] <number10> that5 will get you in the newspapers
[13:48] <number10> 1><10
[13:49] <Upu> I bought some 0603 pink LEDS' btw
[13:49] <daveake__> :)
[13:49] <NigelMoby> just write property of chernobyl on it ;)
[13:50] <number10> excellent - do I get a mention on you wiki as pink component engineer
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[13:56] Action: fsphil opts instead for red and blue leds
[13:57] <daveake__> traditionalist :)
[13:58] <SamSIlver> pink is peerty
[13:59] Nick change: SamSIlver -> SamSilver
[13:59] <SamSilver> blue is techno
[14:01] <NigelMoby> lime green!
[14:02] <fsphil> infra-red!
[14:02] <fsphil> oh wait
[14:03] <SamSilver> lol
[14:04] <SamSilver> http://www.unique-leds.com/index.php?target=products&product_id=1844 a tasty led if ever there was one
[14:09] <number10> i can see daveake__ using a nixie tube
[14:09] <SamSilver> old school
[14:09] <SamSilver> lol
[14:10] <number10> mind you to be fair I sould now direct those jokes to navrac
[14:11] <navrac> hey - I am here you know... nothing wrong with red mumble mumble
[14:12] <navrac> and for the record - Ive never built anything with a nixie tube.
[14:12] <navrac> owned lots of equipment with them
[14:12] <number10> :)
[14:12] <fsphil> I've never seen a nixie tube
[14:13] <navrac> they are 'well cool' looking
[14:13] <NigelMoby> lol poor navrac
[14:14] <navrac> nope - if you want a control panel that says 'i could launch a nuke' it has to have a nixie tube counting down
[14:14] <SamSilver> nixie tube looks like an alien dildo
[14:15] <NigelMoby> Ooook....lol
[14:15] <navrac> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_eye_tube
[14:16] <number10> Ive never seen one of those
[14:17] <SamSilver> had a radio that used it for visual tuning assist
[14:17] <number10> no - hold on I think there was an oblong one in 1960s tape recorder
[14:18] <navrac> yep me too, although i was 12 at the time and it was considered to be an old radio then. I'm not that old, I started young....
[14:20] <SamSilver> http://www.mbzponton.org/n2awa/grundig2066px.html pic of bar graph magic tube
[14:33] <daveake__> nixie tubes ... I think they would use the entire power budget!
[14:33] <daveake__> For a while I had a Windows clock that had a nixie tube mimic display
[14:34] Nick change: daveake__ -> daveake
[14:35] <daveake> What I do want though is a NASA-style countdown clock linked to a balloon release mechanism :)
[14:35] <Upu> count down will have to be in hours and go negative
[14:36] <daveake> True lol
[14:36] <number10> always remember to set the countdown clock an hour early
[14:36] <daveake> Though my last launch was only 5 minutes late
[14:36] <Upu> rare beast :)
[14:36] <daveake> Well I had a chunnel train to catch :)
[14:37] <number10> presumably that wasnt the launch where you did a time lapse and left Julie holding the baloon while you went for a pint
[14:37] <daveake> LOL
[14:37] <daveake> Nope, that was the one before
[14:38] <number10> I must remember that one - just poping off to get some cable ties as these are not the right ones
[14:38] <daveake> Quiet! :)
[14:42] <SamSilver> a pint of your best gov
[14:42] <SamSilver> got any spare cable ties
[14:43] <fsphil> I was suppose to launch at the same time as you that time daveake, I think I just launched minutes before yours burst :)
[14:44] <daveake> SamSilver LOL
[14:44] <number10> http://uk.farnell.com/thomas-betts/p-8-40fl-11-c/cable-tie-pink-218mm-pk100/dp/1279784 cable ties in pink
[14:45] <daveake> number10 I'll get some :)
[14:45] <SamSilver> back in a bit - got fish to barbeque
[14:45] <daveake> fsphil Yeah, I was wondering in the car when people would have 2 balloons to choose from!
[14:46] Nick change: SamSilver -> SamSilver_
[14:46] <fsphil> some day I'll launch on time
[14:46] <fsphil> brb, tesco
[14:46] <number10> I was thinking about this - do you solder the NTX2 on at the last minute incase someone else is launching
[14:46] <Upu> 2 boards..
[14:47] <daveake> number10 I check with Phil before to make sure we were on different frequencies
[14:47] <number10> my one is hand wired - will take ages
[14:47] <daveake> checked
[14:48] <number10> as you say Upu looks like its going to be a busy year - - mind you at the rate I am going it will take me ages to get finished
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[15:04] <russss> oh http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/01/balloon-drones/
[15:04] <russss> balloons carrying drones carrying drones
[15:06] <russss> http://www.nrl.navy.mil/PressReleases/2011/image2_157-11r.jpg
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[15:16] <Randomskk> I don't get what kind of sensors they could usefully carry or how they plan to transmit large amounts of data back, though
[15:19] <SpeedEvil> Is that a pen?
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[15:19] <SpeedEvil> That's huge
[15:20] <SpeedEvil> multi megapixel cameras easily, and perhaps wifi or similar steered up to the parent drone
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[15:20] <russss> there's more pictures here: http://www.nrl.navy.mil/media/news-releases/2011/autonomous-deployment-demonstration-program-completes-flight-testing
[15:20] <russss> apparently the little drones have a GPS and a 2-axis accelerometer
[15:21] <SpeedEvil> Or intelligence payloads
[15:22] <SpeedEvil> camoflague the body a bit, have the wing fall off as it's almost on the ground, and you have a solar powered 'rock' which does remote sensing
[15:22] <russss> yeah I think that's what they're alluding to
[15:23] <SpeedEvil> Audio bugs especially
[15:23] <SpeedEvil> Imagine flying one into a car through an open window when it's parked for a bit.
[15:23] <russss> it's fairly impressive that they can deploy them with an accuracy of 15ft
[15:24] <russss> hah
[15:24] <SpeedEvil> Or just a 'dart' - that sticks next to a window, and listens giving intel to decide to follow it up with a more explosive payload
[15:25] <russss> "Many remote sensors are currently hand emplaced," said Bovais. "The CICADA allows for the low-cost delivery of multiple precision-located sensors without placing the warfighter in harm's way."
[15:26] <Randomskk> SpeedEvil: wifi over 11 miles? the parent drone won't stay up all that long either
[15:26] <SpeedEvil> Randomskk: similar to wifi, I mean
[15:26] <Randomskk> microphones could be useful I guess, but I'd have thought most of the conversations you care about would be indoors
[15:27] <Randomskk> what do cameras get you that you don't get from bigger better cams on existing high altitude drones?
[15:27] <SpeedEvil> Randomskk: in many of the climates that are interesting, windows are not closed all the way, for obvious reasons
[15:27] <Randomskk> faces maybe
[15:27] <Randomskk> hmm, I guess
[15:27] <SpeedEvil> Randomskk: views of faces from the ground
[15:27] <Randomskk> I'd have thought that thing would be fairly conspicuous if it flew in a window
[15:27] <SpeedEvil> Randomskk: and being able to log pictures for a couple of weeks
[15:27] <Randomskk> and also nothing like accurate enough yet
[15:27] <Randomskk> logging could be handy
[15:30] <SpeedEvil> Also picking up even smaller sensors reports
[15:30] <SpeedEvil> For example, I can make a video bug in 1cm^3 about.
[15:31] <SpeedEvil> But I can't make it so it can transmit more than a few meters.
[15:31] <russss> I guess the US military might be able to
[15:31] <SpeedEvil> To an extent, yes.
[15:32] <SpeedEvil> But if you fly a small - disposable relay drone down to it, capable of relaying to a larger platform...
[15:33] <SpeedEvil> I can envision scenarios where you might scatter a thousand little cameras over an area, and later decide you want to know what happened at a given spot three days ago, for example.
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[15:41] <russss> you could fit a pretty high-gain antenna into a Predator or similar
[15:41] <russss> then use that to pick up one little drone at a time and pull the data from it
[15:41] <SpeedEvil> For very, very small sensors, a relay may be useful though perhaps.
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[15:44] <russss> drones all the way down
[15:44] <Hiena> SpeedEvil: that call disposable UAV
[15:45] <SpeedEvil> yes - I mean disposable drones to pick up the lowest level sensors
[15:46] <Hiena> At the BUT we talked about a small coaxial uavs, which works as a nightbugs.
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[15:46] <Hiena> At the daytime they rest and recharge the batteries, at the nightimes flies and gathers datas.
[15:47] <SpeedEvil> If you have a power network in the area, there are other options, of course.
[15:48] <SpeedEvil> Scotland in winter is almost entirely safe from solar powered bugs :)
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[15:50] <SpeedEvil> http://www.pvoutput.org/intraday.jsp?id=3744&sid=2940&dt=20111226
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[15:51] <russss> hah
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[16:18] <cuddykid> running with type B temp sensors for next flight rather than type S
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[16:31] <cuddykid> Dallastemp library actually works with B sensors unlike S
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[16:38] <cuddykid> can anyone explain very weird behaviour where It will randomly get the temperature to be 85C ?
[16:38] <cuddykid> It will get temp just fine, then randomly get it to be 85.00
[16:39] <daveake> What binary value from the sensor relates to 85?
[16:39] <cuddykid> not sure
[16:40] <cuddykid> I'm using the dallas temp library so whether there is a bug in that :S
[16:40] <daveake> Just wondering if it was all 1's
[16:40] <zyp> I would guess the same
[16:40] <daveake> What's the max temp it can read?
[16:41] <cuddykid> hmm - odd, the temp of 85C seems to only occur when I touch temp sensor
[16:41] <cuddykid> daveake: I'l check
[16:41] <zyp> you're hot!
[16:41] <daveake> :D
[16:41] <cuddykid> lol
[16:41] <cuddykid> ahhh
[16:41] <daveake> hot and dead
[16:41] <number10> see a doctor or check MSB
[16:42] <cuddykid> right - I haven't defined precision
[16:42] <cuddykid> that might be why
[16:42] <cuddykid> It has an operating temperature range of -55°C to +125°C and is accurate to ±0.5°C over the range of -10°C to +85°C.
[16:42] <russss> don't you get 85 degrees from 1-wire sensors when there's an error?
[16:43] <daveake> I've been putting up extra shelves in the garage/workshop. I now have some HAB shelves :)
[16:43] <cuddykid> russss: quite possibly, looks that way
[16:43] <daveake> So now Julie can have the dining room back
[16:44] <fsphil> organisation is overrated :)
[16:44] <daveake> :)
[16:44] <daveake> Organisation is usually the cause of me not being able to find something where I thought I'd left it
[16:50] <number10> I have a similar thing.. but its not being able to find something because I think Mrs10 has moved it
[16:59] <Upu> in my case Mrs Upu HAS moved it
[17:00] <daveake> That was the "organisation" I referred to :-)
[17:00] <daveake> Well, Mrs Dave not Mrs Upu :p
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[17:22] <number10> Mrs10 just read that and laughed
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[17:58] <Dan-K2VOL> buenas dias!
[17:58] <fsphil> Salut Dan!
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[18:00] <fsphil> things seem to be getting busy in Whitestar land
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[18:06] <cuddykid> new temp sensors soldered on
[18:07] <cuddykid> old ones desoldered :D
[18:07] <cuddykid> now to test the code&
[18:10] <cuddykid> initially thought there was something wrong as the temp readings where doing down when I held them - only to find it was because my hands are so cold lol
[18:10] <cuddykid> all good
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[20:45] <Laurenceb_> http://www.fonema.se/anemom/anemom.html
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[20:53] <SpeedEvil> fun
[20:54] <Laurenceb_> a little lame
[20:54] <Laurenceb_> i made a hot buld sensor
[20:54] <Laurenceb_> *bulb
[20:55] <SpeedEvil> nothing really unexpected
[20:55] <Laurenceb_> yeah, but sensors are slow
[20:55] <Laurenceb_> *big
[20:55] <NickB1> yes
[20:55] <Laurenceb_> i found you have to keep tungsten wire <400C
[20:55] <Laurenceb_> or it oxidises
[20:55] <NickB1> got ny first full data string
[20:56] <Laurenceb_> so ambient temperature effects rseults
[20:56] <Laurenceb_> also, dust can break the wire
[20:56] <Laurenceb_> i was contemplating an 0201 100ohm resistor on the end of some very thing constantan and nichrome wires
[20:56] <Laurenceb_> *thin
[20:57] <Laurenceb_> then pwm the resistor and have one side to gnd and the other to pwm/opamp amplifier
[20:57] <SpeedEvil> you mean to measure the nichrome wires?
[20:57] Action: SpeedEvil fails to understand.
[20:57] <Laurenceb_> inbetween the pulses measure the seebeck voltage and use to adjust pwm duty cycle
[20:57] <SpeedEvil> Just woken up.
[20:57] <Laurenceb_> its a thermocouple
[20:58] <Laurenceb_> nichrome and constantan
[20:58] <SpeedEvil> hmm
[20:58] <SpeedEvil> suppose it is
[20:58] <Laurenceb_> 62uV/C
[20:58] <Laurenceb_> you could get ~1K times gain with a decent opamp
[20:58] <Laurenceb_> then pwm at a few hundered hz
[20:59] <SpeedEvil> indeed - .1C resolution is quite easily obtainable
[21:00] <Laurenceb_> also it measures difference
[21:00] <Laurenceb_> so its better than a dual thermistor bridge
[21:00] <SpeedEvil> indeed
[21:01] <Laurenceb_> might work best with a dedicated micro - maybe an attiny or something
[21:01] <Laurenceb_> tiny pcb with micro and opamp thats exposed to the airflow, then resistor dangling off
[21:01] <Laurenceb_> AD8551 looks good
[21:02] <SpeedEvil> There are lots of 1uv opamps nowadays
[21:02] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[21:02] <Laurenceb_> ah idea i had ages ago was to use an 0603 PT100 sensor
[21:03] <NickB1> you mean 1uv offset?
[21:03] <Laurenceb_> the platinum is on one side under a very thin glase
[21:03] <Laurenceb_> yes
[21:03] <Laurenceb_> so if you pwm at 100Hz or so
[21:03] <SpeedEvil> yes nick
[21:03] <Laurenceb_> then you will heat just the thin film and glaze (approximately)
[21:04] <Laurenceb_> then look at the decay after the heating
[21:04] <Laurenceb_> or something like that
[21:04] <Laurenceb_> glaze - thin film - alumina
[21:05] <Laurenceb_> heat goes into glaze, film and top of alumina in the first few ms
[21:05] <Laurenceb_> then you turn off heating and it soaks into the bulk of the alumina substrate
[21:05] <Laurenceb_> but some is lost to the air, so the decay time constant changes wiht airflow
[21:06] <Laurenceb_> unfortunately it looks like the effect is really small, you need to be able to detect <<1%
[21:07] <SpeedEvil> hmm
[21:07] <Laurenceb_> it might be possible to make some form of oscillator
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[21:08] <Lunar_Lander> good evening
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[21:59] <Lunar_Lander> hello RocketBoy
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[22:20] <Laurenceb_> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Raspberry-Pi-Model-B-beta-board-01-limited-series-10-/180786868894?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item2a17bcb29e
[22:20] <Laurenceb_> wow
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[22:28] <BrainDamage> maybe they plan to reach the 30$ goal by having few rich people pay for the price difference for the others
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[22:36] <Laurenceb_> just realised i have the same birthday as steven hawking
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[00:00] --- Mon Jan 9 2012