highaltitude.log.20120101

[00:00] <joph> Happy X-Mas!
[00:00] <Danielsaul_ipad> Happy new year :)
[00:00] <gonzo_> and HNY
[00:00] <rs232u> its only 4pm in california
[00:01] <joph> happy new year and a wonderful 5. advent
[00:01] <Lunar_Lander> HAPPY NEW YEAR
[00:01] <Lunar_Lander> :P
[00:03] <rs232u> i wonder how spacex can get such high a proportion of their rockets to be useful payload
[00:03] <Darkside> uhm
[00:03] <Darkside> you guys are behind lol
[00:04] <SpeedEvil> Happy new year!
[00:04] <Darkside> its been new years here for 10 hours
[00:04] <rs232u> you all must be in aulstralia?
[00:04] <Darkside> 10.5 hours
[00:04] <SpeedEvil> rs232u: moderately advanced technology.
[00:04] <Darkside> rs232u: i'm in australia, pretty much all the rest are in the UK
[00:05] <Lunar_Lander> do you guys know the Anti-SpaceX advertisement?
[00:05] Danielsaul_ipad (5c153c64@gateway/web/freenode/ip.92.21.60.100) left irc: Quit: Page closed
[00:05] <rs232u> there's an anti-spacex advertisement???
[00:05] <rs232u> what does it say?
[00:05] <Lunar_Lander> http://www.futurespaceusa.com/smoke_fire.html
[00:06] <rs232u> so i keep falling short when i try to reproduce spacex's performance mathematically using the rocket equation and 2 stages
[00:06] <SpeedEvil> haha
[00:06] <Lunar_Lander> does the link work rs232u?
[00:06] <rs232u> i didnt click it
[00:06] <rs232u> afraid to
[00:07] <Lunar_Lander> well
[00:07] <Darkside> rs232u: its safe
[00:07] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[00:07] <Lunar_Lander> the site is from P&W Rocketdyne
[00:07] <rs232u> it looks pro-spacex to me
[00:07] <rs232u> almost
[00:08] <rs232u> spacex has really flown
[00:08] <Lunar_Lander> well
[00:08] <Lunar_Lander> it's an atlas V
[00:08] <rs232u> they're not just doing press conferences
[00:08] <Lunar_Lander> yea but they announced to fly in fall
[00:08] <Lunar_Lander> then in winter
[00:08] <rs232u> aww
[00:08] <rs232u> it happens
[00:08] <rs232u> im a spacex sympathsizer
[00:08] <rs232u> so shoot me !
[00:08] <Lunar_Lander> xD no
[00:09] <Lunar_Lander> well the text is wrong in one point
[00:09] <Lunar_Lander> "we deliver astronauts"
[00:09] <Lunar_Lander> should say "We have delivered astronauts"
[00:09] <Lunar_Lander> as there is no manned U.S. space vehicle at the moment
[00:09] <SpeedEvil> rs232u: How are you calculating velocities and drag?
[00:09] <rs232u> did they make the shuttle's SRBs or something?
[00:10] <SpeedEvil> I vaguely recall the engines
[00:10] <Lunar_Lander> ysea
[00:10] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[00:10] <Lunar_Lander> the poster is by ULA
[00:10] <rs232u> speedevil: i'm making some harsh assumptions, basically drag is proportional to velocity squared (which i assume to be true even beyond mach 1)
[00:10] <SpeedEvil> It's not
[00:10] <SpeedEvil> You've got a proper atmosphere model?
[00:11] <SpeedEvil> Also - thrust profile makes a difference
[00:11] <SpeedEvil> And you're assuming a realistic trajectory - not straight up?
[00:12] rs232u_ (6cccff70@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.204.255.112) joined #highaltitude.
[00:12] <rs232u_> er, "i used the nasa atmosphere model - you can find it by searching for nasa atmosphere metric"
[00:12] <rs232u_> my browser based IRC client doesnt work too well
[00:12] <SpeedEvil> There are several, but any should do.
[00:12] Dutch-Mill (3e2d8519@gateway/web/freenode/ip.62.45.133.25) left irc: Ping timeout: 258 seconds
[00:12] <rs232u_> this one has 3 parts, one for each layer of the atmosphere
[00:12] <Laurenceb_> haha
[00:13] <Laurenceb_> 4 real?
[00:13] <rs232u_> ?
[00:13] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: I lve the scrolly bit at the top left
[00:13] <Lunar_Lander> even US Standard Atmosphere of '76 was more accurate
[00:13] <Laurenceb_> the rocket equation
[00:13] <rs232u_> http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/k-12/airplane/atmosmet.html
[00:13] <Laurenceb_> using the quotend ISP?
[00:13] <Laurenceb_> *quoted
[00:13] <SpeedEvil> ISP will vary throughout the flight
[00:13] <rs232u_> i use their quoted specific impulse, yes
[00:13] <Laurenceb_> yeah thats a point
[00:13] <rs232u_> i dont think thats the reason im so far off though
[00:13] <Lunar_Lander> whoa man
[00:14] <Laurenceb_> for the first stage that might be at ground level
[00:14] <Lunar_Lander> that link thing is really simplified
[00:14] <rs232u_> i think the problem is i assume 15% structural mass
[00:14] <Lunar_Lander> that also should be an error
[00:14] <SpeedEvil> 15% is very high
[00:14] <Laurenceb_> erm
[00:14] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[00:14] <SpeedEvil> Ridiculously high
[00:14] <rs232u_> is it? an old text said 16% was realistic
[00:14] <rs232u_> it was the RAND study on a world circlign spaceship
[00:14] <SpeedEvil> It's what I was shooting for, when I was designing my rocket.
[00:14] <Laurenceb_> that would be massively important
[00:14] <SpeedEvil> And I was aiming for a fibreglass structure
[00:14] <Laurenceb_> its exponential with the mass fraction
[00:14] <rs232u_> But to match spacex performance I need like 10-11% structure !
[00:14] <Lunar_Lander> airship flying around the world? cool
[00:15] <rs232u_> how do they DO that????
[00:15] rs232u (6cccff70@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.204.255.112) left irc: Ping timeout: 258 seconds
[00:15] g7waw (5698c015@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.152.192.21) left irc: Ping timeout: 258 seconds
[00:15] <Laurenceb_> thts perfectly sane with their design
[00:15] <rs232u_> what do they have, a balloon rocket?
[00:15] <rs232u_> how can anything be so light?
[00:15] <Laurenceb_> pretty much
[00:15] <Laurenceb_> its pressure stabilised
[00:15] <rs232u_> i wish this rocketry stuff was easier, i doubt if an amateur like myself could make a pressure stabalized rocket
[00:15] <SpeedEvil> yes, you can.
[00:16] <SpeedEvil> A coke can is pressure stabilised
[00:16] <rs232u_> no kidding?
[00:16] <SpeedEvil> Shake it hard, and then stand on a coke can - vertically
[00:16] <fsphil> yay, 2012
[00:16] <SpeedEvil> It can take it with no damage at all
[00:16] <fsphil> I'm in the future!
[00:16] <SpeedEvil> :)
[00:16] <rs232u_> happy new year to you then
[00:16] <SpeedEvil> Now weigh the empty coke-can
[00:17] <rs232u_> so is it pressurized by carbon dioxide gas?
[00:17] <Laurenceb_> yes
[00:17] <SpeedEvil> Helium often, for rockets
[00:17] <rs232u_> i hear the russians used to use nitrogen
[00:17] <rs232u_> for pressurizing something or another
[00:18] <rs232u_> does anyone know what specific impulse you can get from paraffin-LOX?
[00:18] <rs232u_> on the web i get a high number, but i found from the enthalpy of formation, a much lower number
[00:19] <SpeedEvil> http://www.spacelaunchreport.com/falcon9.html
[00:19] <fsphil> I'll have to launch a rocket this year
[00:19] <fsphil> even a small one
[00:20] <rs232u_> fsphil: is that your new years resolution
[00:20] <fsphil> one of them lol
[00:20] <SpeedEvil> See the table at the bottom.
[00:20] <rs232u_> personally i want to do engine testing, not actual rocket launching, first.
[00:20] <fsphil> I've done water jet rockets
[00:20] <rs232u_> that table has the numbers i was trying to compute
[00:20] <fsphil> max altitude, 0.010km ;)
[00:20] <SpeedEvil> rs232u_: That gives ~7% structural fraction for the bottom
[00:20] <rs232u_> that is SO incredible
[00:21] <rs232u_> are you sure you divided right?
[00:21] <SpeedEvil> The tanks are bloody lightweight
[00:21] <SpeedEvil> They're Al-Li (IIRC), and honeycombed, using friction stir welding.
[00:21] <rs232u_> "~ 2.0 t?" is listed in the table
[00:21] <rs232u_> i'm guessing they mean around 2,000 kg
[00:21] <SpeedEvil> yes
[00:22] <rs232u_> for my first rocket test i want to use a pressure fed system and a water copper tube to cool it
[00:22] <rs232u_> i want to run it to the point of failure and use some instruments to measure what happens
[00:22] <rs232u_> sounds dangerous, huh?
[00:22] <SpeedEvil> Not very.
[00:22] <SpeedEvil> Unless you maange to fill the chamber with liquid unreacted fuel, which then goes off.
[00:23] <SpeedEvil> ^mixed
[00:23] <rs232u_> Goddard did some research with LOX and gasoline, which is readilly available
[00:23] <rs232u_> (I think)
[00:23] <SpeedEvil> Yu probably want to use purified kerosene - RP1 - or even just buy hexane or something.
[00:23] <rs232u_> is hexane propane?
[00:24] <SpeedEvil> You don't want coke happening in the coolant passages
[00:24] <SpeedEvil> Somewhere around there.
[00:24] <SpeedEvil> And gasoline is a poorly specified mix.
[00:24] <rs232u_> so you're saying that the combustion will leave residue that will clog things?
[00:24] <SpeedEvil> yes
[00:24] <SpeedEvil> Oh - you're not doing regenerative cooling?
[00:25] <rs232u_> what is it called when you have copper tubes for the combustion chamber and nozzle, with water flowing through it?
[00:25] <rs232u_> it can't fly that way
[00:25] <rs232u_> too heavy, but its for getting some numbers (data)
[00:25] <SpeedEvil> I had some prototype bits for electroformed regenerative nozzles, that looked promising.
[00:25] <SpeedEvil> Do it right, and it can
[00:25] <SpeedEvil> Sort-of.
[00:25] <rs232u_> where will i get water from if it flies though
[00:25] <rs232u_> "electroformed regenerative nozzles?"
[00:25] <SpeedEvil> Find a propellant with a wide liquid range, then pump it down past the throat, and then collect it at the bottom, and back up to the injector
[00:26] <SpeedEvil> This is a regeneratively cooled engine
[00:26] <SpeedEvil> I was thinking of LOX/alcohol.
[00:26] <rs232u_> what are the types of engines, regenerative and ablative? is there film cooling too like the V2 used?
[00:26] <SpeedEvil> As alcohol is good for coolant.
[00:26] <SpeedEvil> Radiation cooled too.
[00:26] <rs232u_> Oh, right.
[00:27] <SpeedEvil> But that means you need to find a nice source of Rh/Ir.
[00:27] <SpeedEvil> And Rh/Ir are awesome.
[00:27] <rs232u_> Rh/Ir ?
[00:27] <rs232u_> are those elements?
[00:27] <SpeedEvil> But they're also fun to machine, and with a pricetag implied by the term 'platinum group metals'.
[00:27] <rs232u_> ouch
[00:27] <SpeedEvil> It's a shame, because it's so easy.
[00:28] <SpeedEvil> You just have the chamber glowing at ~3000C
[00:28] <SpeedEvil> And it works fine
[00:28] <rs232u_> is it a coating? or is the chamber made from Rh/Ir ??
[00:28] <SpeedEvil> made from it
[00:28] <rs232u_> I was looking at the melting point of tungsten
[00:28] <rs232u_> why dont rockets use that?
[00:28] <rs232u_> it melts really hot
[00:28] <SpeedEvil> Umm
[00:29] <SpeedEvil> You don't only care about melting point
[00:29] <SpeedEvil> But also phase discontinuities.
[00:29] <rs232u_> yeah, structural losses at high temps matter too
[00:29] <SpeedEvil> For example, titanium changes phase at ~500C - and goes to another phase that's slightly denser
[00:29] <rs232u_> oh
[00:29] <SpeedEvil> this means you can't use it above this
[00:29] <SpeedEvil> As the strucutre will distort unpredictably
[00:30] <rs232u_> unless it's actively cooled somehow
[00:30] <rs232u_> like liquid lithium coolant or something
[00:30] <SpeedEvil> yes, in which case, tehrere isn't a good reason to use it over copper
[00:30] <rs232u_> oh
[00:30] <rs232u_> spacex uses a gas generator cycle. what is your favorite rocket cycle?
[00:30] <SpeedEvil> I was looking at pressure fed, with a simple gas generator
[00:31] <rs232u_> is it a pressure fed gas generator?
[00:31] <rs232u_> or did you mean no turbopump
[00:31] <SpeedEvil> no turbopump
[00:32] <rs232u_> i hope the NASA Nano-Sat challenge brings us a new space launch company
[00:32] <rs232u_> $2.0 million prize for two 1.0 kg payloads. someone's sure to win it.
[00:32] <rs232u_> now if only we could get the winner to share everything they learned...
[00:33] Laurenceb_ (~Laurence@host86-177-62-66.range86-177.btcentralplus.com) left irc: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
[00:33] <SpeedEvil> http://groups.google.com/group/sci.space.tech/browse_thread/thread/a461f9f041963326/bd2460469bbce036?hl=en&q=huzel+huang++%22elements+of%22#bd2460469bbce036
[00:33] <SpeedEvil> See that
[00:34] <SpeedEvil> Also - browse that groups archives
[00:34] <rs232u_> i've got some NACA technical reports
[00:34] <rs232u_> on the stability of biplanes...
[00:35] <SpeedEvil> NACA is awesome
[00:35] <SpeedEvil> was
[00:36] <rs232u_> what do you think would be the drawbacks of using gas-generator technology here on earth for energy generation? does it take more energy to produce the LOX than it's worth?
[00:36] <rs232u_> i mean like instead of a jet engine derrived energy generator, use a rocket derrived generator for energy.
[00:37] <SpeedEvil> The temperature is so enormously higher.
[00:37] <SpeedEvil> And the velocities higher too.
[00:37] <rs232u_> that's very good, i want higher efficiencies
[00:37] <rs232u_> faster exhaust means more kinetic energy for turning a turbine
[00:37] <SpeedEvil> Not quite.
[00:37] <rs232u_> rockets can manage the heat somehow, why not a generator?
[00:38] <SpeedEvil> Because cooling of rockets does not involve cooling surfaces directly impinged by a shockwave
[00:39] <rs232u_> in a rocket, the gas generator turns a turbine to power the turbopump. surely that can be connected to a generator instead of pumping fuel...
[00:40] <SpeedEvil> gas generator operates at way off stochiometric - so the products are comparatively cool
[00:40] <rs232u_> oh
[00:41] <rs232u_> have you seen a schematic for hero's engine? i wonder if you had a giant sphere with rockets mounted to turn it, how efficient it would be at generating energy.
[00:41] <rs232u_> the only problem is the LOX requirement
[00:42] <SpeedEvil> VEry inefficient
[00:42] <rs232u_> the reason i'm asking is i am a space dreamer and i want to pay for the rockets by selling energy (in this imaginary world...)
[00:42] <rs232u_> hmm
[00:42] <SpeedEvil> you need the sphere to be moving at a sizeable fraction of theexhaust speed.
[00:42] <rs232u_> so the centrifugal force would rip the rockets to pieces?
[00:42] <SpeedEvil> Which means ~3km/s or so
[00:42] <SpeedEvil> yes
[00:42] <rs232u_> hehe
[00:43] <rs232u_> the "next big thing" in rockets might be pulse detonation rocketry
[00:43] <rs232u_> which might someday be used to generate energy efficiently too
[00:43] <Upu> hope everyone had a good transitional period on the gegorian calendar
[00:43] <rs232u_> today's jet engine based generators spend a lot of energy compressing the air
[00:44] <rs232u_> do you know if a pulse detonation based generator would need a compressor at all? i mean maybe you can just detonate the air-fuel mix faster than sound and no compressor is required?
[00:44] <SpeedEvil> Conventional rocket engines are unliekly to be beaten
[00:44] <SpeedEvil> at least for pure rocket mode.
[00:44] <rs232u_> Upu: in 7 hours or so
[00:44] <SpeedEvil> They're >99% efficient
[00:44] <Upu> been and gone for us
[00:44] <rs232u_> speedevil: no, in actual flight they're in the 80-90% range
[00:45] <rs232u_> in terms of energy expended
[00:45] <rs232u_> vs. kinetic energy delivered to the payload
[00:45] <SpeedEvil> They are nowhere near 80-90%
[00:45] <rs232u_> have you ever computed the kinetic energy wasted on doing work on exhaust
[00:45] <SpeedEvil> If you measre it like that
[00:45] <SpeedEvil> More like 1%
[00:45] <rs232u_> if you measurei t in terms of work done on exhaust...
[00:46] <rs232u_> is the purpose of a rocket to do work on exhaust or on a payload?
[00:46] <SpeedEvil> If you measre it in terms of chemical energy to exhaust energy - you get >99%
[00:46] <SpeedEvil> (for a well expanded engine in vacuum)
[00:46] <rs232u_> no you don't, the exhaust speed of LH2-LOX should be 5 km/s or so at 99% efficiency
[00:46] <rs232u_> in a vacuum
[00:46] <rs232u_> instead it's 4400 m/s or so
[00:46] <rs232u_> for the SSME
[00:47] <SpeedEvil> The SSME does not - IIRC - sually run stochiometric
[00:47] <rs232u_> that's 88% efficiency
[00:47] <rs232u_> that's true
[00:47] <rs232u_> (too hot that way)
[00:47] <rs232u_> i'd say 30-70% of the energy generated by combustion in a rocket, goes to work on the payload (per stage)
[00:48] <rs232u_> which means 70-30% gets "wasted" doing work on exhaust, so as to conserve momentum
[00:48] <SpeedEvil> Way under that.
[00:48] <SpeedEvil> More like 10% gets used on the payload
[00:48] <rs232u_> lets say exhaust speed is 4400 m/s for sake of argument
[00:48] <rs232u_> lets say the rocket is 71% propellant, 15% structure
[00:48] <SpeedEvil> This is all largely irrelevant.
[00:48] <rs232u_> no
[00:48] <SpeedEvil> As you really care about cost
[00:48] <rs232u_> we can compute it
[00:49] <rs232u_> i was just talking about the energy
[00:49] <SpeedEvil> which is not a simple optimisation problem from teh point of view of the rocket equation
[00:49] <rs232u_> if Pulse Detonation proves better but more costly, no one will use it
[00:50] <rs232u_> Suppose the rocket is 100 kg full. Then 14kg is payload. We can compute the energy in vs. energy that wen tot Kinetic Energy of the payload then.
[00:50] <rs232u_> .5 * 14kg * (5,446 m/s)^2
[00:50] <SpeedEvil> You're using structural mass as payload
[00:50] <rs232u_> that's the energy out = 207 612 412 joules
[00:50] <rs232u_> no
[00:50] <rs232u_> 15% strucutral mass
[00:51] <rs232u_> 71% payload
[00:51] <rs232u_> sorry
[00:51] <rs232u_> 71% propellant
[00:51] <rs232u_> 14% payload
[00:51] <rs232u_> 15% structure, 71% propellant, 14% payload
[00:51] <SpeedEvil> ah
[00:51] <rs232u_> 71 kg propellant was used
[00:51] <rs232u_> what's the energy density of LH2-LOX?
[00:52] <rs232u_> including the oxidizer
[00:52] <SpeedEvil> losy
[00:52] <SpeedEvil> Truly terrible
[00:52] <rs232u_> hm?
[00:52] <SpeedEvil> Hence why spaceX used LOX/kero
[00:52] <rs232u_> LOX/kero has a lower energy density than LOX/LH2 "in theory"
[00:52] <rs232u_> i think it's the density that 's the problem
[00:52] <rs232u_> energy density means Joules per kilogram here
[00:52] <SpeedEvil> Energy density is J/l
[00:52] <SpeedEvil> Specific energy is J/Kg
[00:52] <rs232u_> ok
[00:53] <rs232u_> what's hte specific energy of LH2-LOX then
[00:53] <rs232u_> so we can see how much energy went in if we put in 71 kg LH2-LOX ?
[00:53] <SpeedEvil> I don't recall
[00:53] <rs232u_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density
[00:54] <rs232u_> 123 megajoules per kilogram ???? does that sound right?
[00:54] <SpeedEvil> Remember, you also have to do the right calculation - you can't for example assme that you can condense the water in teh exhast
[00:54] <SpeedEvil> which that probably assumes
[00:54] <rs232u_> here is an approximation that is better, then
[00:54] <rs232u_> Vex=sqrt(2 Ed), Ed = specific energy, Vex=exhaust speed
[00:55] <rs232u_> let's use 9 680 000 joules/kg, times 71 kg
[00:55] <rs232u_> 687 280 000 joules went in
[00:55] joph_ (~joph@p4FDEDD93.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #highaltitude.
[00:55] <rs232u_> 208 megajoules went out
[00:56] <rs232u_> possibly some more energy than that went in, but we're within 20% or so of the right answer
[00:56] <SpeedEvil> You're using the rocket equation to compute the final speed?
[00:57] <rs232u_> so "about 2/3 of a rocket's energy goes to exhaust and 1/3 does actual work on the payload"
[00:57] <rs232u_> yes
[00:57] <rs232u_> i did that
[00:57] <rs232u_> 4400*ln(1/(1-0.71))
[00:57] <rs232u_> 4400= exhaust speed in m/s, 0.71=propellant fraction
[00:57] <rs232u_> admitably this is PER STAGE.
[00:58] daveake (~daveake@daveake.plus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[00:58] <rs232u_> no one would (or could) use a rocket if only 1% went to useful payload, maybe your 1% figure was for a 3-stage rocket?
[00:58] gb73d (gb73d@81-178-186-168.dsl.pipex.com) joined #highaltitude.
[00:59] <rs232u_> one thing i never figured out is, if a rocket is hoovering its exhaust has a certain temperature right? does that temperature drop if the rocket is boosting upwards?
[00:59] joph (~joph@p4FDEDE7A.dip.t-dialin.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 260 seconds
[00:59] Nick change: joph_ -> joph
[00:59] <SpeedEvil> I wasn't thinking - 1% is the fraction of the initial mass as payload.
[00:59] <rs232u_> yeah, that sounds right
[00:59] <SpeedEvil> That's only truefor a singlestage rocket though
[01:00] <rs232u_> 1% is a good number for a 2-3 stage rocket
[01:00] <rs232u_> for the payload divided by initial mass of the first stage
[01:00] <rs232u_> a good rocket might be 10-20% payload per stage
[01:00] <rs232u_> i can optimize a 2-stage rocket easily, but i dont know "variational math" or whatever you need to do 3 stages
[01:01] <rs232u_> math of variations or whatever it's called, is there a good rule of thumb?
[01:01] <SpeedEvil> The 'easy' way to do it is to simply plot n different ones.
[01:01] <rs232u_> i write C++ programs to try all combinations
[01:01] <rs232u_> and gives me the optimal result for 3 stages
[01:01] <rs232u_> but that's cheating =)
[01:02] <SpeedEvil> I suspect there isn't a simple way to optimise.
[01:02] <SpeedEvil> as you want to optimise thrusts and weights too
[01:02] <rs232u_> yeah, it depends on your definition of 'optimal' too
[01:02] <SpeedEvil> - is a thirdstage that can accellerate at .5G better than one that does 2G
[01:02] <rs232u_> a cutting edge rocket that's ultra efficient might be more costly
[01:03] <rs232u_> .5G?
[01:03] <rs232u_> it will be impacted by gravity for part of the flight
[01:03] <rs232u_> which i guess is OK
[01:03] <SpeedEvil> In some cases, it might be better - engine mass is smaller
[01:03] <rs232u_> woa
[01:04] <SpeedEvil> And once it's nearly in orbit, the required accelleration to avoid gravity losses may go way down
[01:04] <rs232u_> hm, my trajectory simutions are just "fire up for the first stage, then go over at 45 degrees." it reaches orbit that way in 3 stages, but i cant even remotely match spacex's performance.
[01:05] <rs232u_> mostly because they have 7% structural mass or so !!!!
[01:07] <SpeedEvil> Fire up for the first stage is far from optimal
[01:07] <SpeedEvil> you want at least some cant
[01:07] <SpeedEvil> and you probably want it to continue to tilt over
[01:07] <SpeedEvil> Once it's up past 10km
[01:08] <rs232u_> the nasa atmosphere model gives a low density of air even at 100 km
[01:08] <rs232u_> 10 km will have a lot of air still too
[01:08] <SpeedEvil> yes.
[01:08] <SpeedEvil> gradually curving over
[01:09] <rs232u_> so in theory a 1,000 kg rocket can put a 1kg satellite in LEO
[01:09] <rs232u_> without any real difficulty
[01:09] NigeyS (~Nigel@cpc5-cdif13-2-0-cust232.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com) left irc: Read error: Connection reset by peer
[01:09] <rs232u_> it would cost $310,000 or so if we could match spacex's $310/kg rocket cost
[01:10] Action: rs232u_ doesn't have $310,000
[01:10] <SpeedEvil> The numbers I was coming up with were of the order of $20K for a 4-stage 1Kg launcher
[01:11] <rs232u_> that sounds about right, i mean 1,000 kg would be 0.1% payload usable
[01:11] <rs232u_> so maybe it's only 200kg to put 1kg in LEO?
[01:11] <rs232u_> 200 kg * $310/kg = ?
[01:11] <rs232u_> i get $62K
[01:11] <rs232u_> $20K is optimistic!
[01:12] <SpeedEvil> I was not costing it using Al-Li
[01:12] <SpeedEvil> But fibreglass.
[01:12] <rs232u_> hehe
[01:12] <rs232u_> nice!
[01:12] <rs232u_> well if you go for it i will be cheering for you at the launch
[01:12] chris_99 (~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929) left irc: Quit: Leaving
[01:12] <SpeedEvil> You can back _way_ off on the weight control if you up the number of stages.
[01:13] <rs232u_> Ah. And you can use easier fuel too.
[01:13] <rs232u_> I mean it doesnt have to be cutting edge efficient
[01:13] <SpeedEvil> Indeed.
[01:13] <rs232u_> I wonder if the NASA challenge will have a down payment required to register the team
[01:13] <rs232u_> that would be so bogus if they did
[01:14] <rs232u_> the lunar lander challenge is $10k, and no new teams are allowed
[01:16] <rs232u_> did you factor insurance and any licensing requirements into the $20k?
[01:17] <SpeedEvil> No.
[01:17] <SpeedEvil> I was looking at the technical reqirements only
[01:17] <rs232u_> i see, that makes sense.
[01:18] <rs232u_> 2x$20K << $2million (40k is much less than 2 million dollars anyways)
[01:22] gonzo_ (~gonzo_@109.104.96.45) left irc: Read error: Connection reset by peer
[01:24] <rs232u_> http://challenge.gov/NASA/49-nano-satellite-launch-challenge
[01:24] <rs232u_> in 1 year and 6 months it's all over
[01:24] <rs232u_> and people can start flying in 6 months
[01:25] Lunar_Lander (~knoppix@p54883D1F.dip.t-dialin.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 248 seconds
[01:25] <rs232u_> why do challenges have an experation date? that is so bogus. it takes 3 years to get a permit here in california for experimental rocketry
[01:25] soafee-chan (~TraumaPon@124-171-200-250.dyn.iinet.net.au) joined #highaltitude.
[01:28] spacekitteh (~TraumaPon@203-206-31-55.dyn.iinet.net.au) left irc: Ping timeout: 268 seconds
[01:31] <rs232u_> well bye y'all
[01:31] rs232u_ (6cccff70@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.204.255.112) left irc: Quit: Page closed
[01:40] aetaric (~aetaric@74-130-83-237.dhcp.insightbb.com) joined #highaltitude.
[02:03] Wil5on (~Wil5on@compsci.adl/eternalpresident/wil5on) joined #highaltitude.
[02:07] Nick change: soafee-chan -> spacekitteh
[02:27] Wil5on (~Wil5on@compsci.adl/eternalpresident/wil5on) left irc: Ping timeout: 252 seconds
[02:33] daveake (~daveake@daveake.plus.com) left irc: Ping timeout: 248 seconds
[02:42] navrac (545c0e05@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.92.14.5) left irc: Quit: Page closed
[02:46] gb73d (gb73d@81-178-186-168.dsl.pipex.com) left irc: Quit: Whoosh we're gone
[03:25] Lando-SpacePimp (~Lando_Cal@unaffiliated/lando-spacepimp) joined #highaltitude.
[03:30] setpixel (~Adium@cpe-66-108-116-57.nyc.res.rr.com) left irc: Quit: Leaving.
[03:48] snelly (~cjs@island.nu) left irc: Quit: leaving
[03:49] snelly (~cjs@island.nu) joined #highaltitude.
[04:06] Lando-SpacePimp (~Lando_Cal@unaffiliated/lando-spacepimp) left irc: Ping timeout: 260 seconds
[04:26] soafee-chan (~TraumaPon@124-171-200-250.dyn.iinet.net.au) joined #highaltitude.
[04:27] joph_ (~joph@p4FDED448.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #highaltitude.
[04:28] spacekitteh (~TraumaPon@124-171-200-250.dyn.iinet.net.au) left irc: Ping timeout: 268 seconds
[04:28] joph (~joph@p4FDEDD93.dip.t-dialin.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 260 seconds
[04:28] Nick change: joph_ -> joph
[05:00] <Paradoxial> Happy new year everyone!
[05:06] <kristianpaul> Thanks !
[05:06] <kristianpaul> Same :)
[05:20] Nick change: soafee-chan -> spacekitteh
[05:21] <natrium42> cheers, you too!
[05:21] rs232u (6cccff70@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.204.255.112) joined #highaltitude.
[05:47] setpixel (~Adium@cpe-66-108-116-57.nyc.res.rr.com) joined #highaltitude.
[06:12] DrLuke (~Im@p5B15A8C8.dip.t-dialin.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 252 seconds
[06:17] DrLuke (~Im@p5B15D9DD.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #highaltitude.
[06:19] rs232u (6cccff70@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.204.255.112) left irc: Quit: Page closed
[06:41] aetaric (~aetaric@74-130-83-237.dhcp.insightbb.com) left irc: Quit: aetaric
[07:25] nosebleedKT (~mixio@ppp079166176145.dsl.hol.gr) joined #highaltitude.
[07:50] nosebleedKT (~mixio@ppp079166176145.dsl.hol.gr) left irc: Quit: If you run you only gonna die tired
[08:30] number10 (568eafbe@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.142.175.190) joined #highaltitude.
[08:54] daveake (~daveake@daveake.plus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[08:56] Paradoxial (~Paradoxia@pool-108-28-22-94.washdc.fios.verizon.net) left irc: Quit: :
[09:45] nosebleedKT (~mixio@ppp079166176145.dsl.hol.gr) joined #highaltitude.
[09:45] <daveake> Happy New Year peeps
[09:45] <SpeedEvil> Indeed.
[09:46] <SpeedEvil> It's dawned a bright and sunny one here.
[09:46] <SpeedEvil> Definately more sunny than in australia.
[09:46] <SpeedEvil> (for several hours at least)
[09:47] <daveake> Still no news from Raul?
[09:48] <SpeedEvil> Seemingly not.
[09:54] <daveake> Hopefully his internet will work enough seconds to let us know soon
[09:59] <SpeedEvil> :)
[10:16] g7waw (5698c015@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.152.192.21) joined #highaltitude.
[10:17] andrew_apex (~chatzilla@2.27.102.10) joined #highaltitude.
[10:18] <nosebleedKT> Habby new year :)
[10:43] <SpeedEvil> :)
[10:55] <fsphil> daveake, raul found it
[10:55] <fsphil> got lots of video
[10:55] <fsphil> don't know any more yet
[10:56] andrew_apex_ (~chatzilla@2.25.202.254) joined #highaltitude.
[10:56] <SpeedEvil> :)
[10:56] andrew_apex (~chatzilla@2.27.102.10) left irc: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
[10:56] Nick change: andrew_apex_ -> andrew_apex
[10:58] <eroomde> good morning all
[10:58] <eroomde> HNY etc
[10:59] <cuddykid> ditto eroomde :P
[10:59] <fsphil> so far so good ;)
[10:59] <eroomde> yup!
[10:59] gonzo_ (~gonzo_@109.104.96.45) joined #highaltitude.
[11:00] <eroomde> fsphil: can you put bash functions in your .bashrc do you know?
[11:00] <cuddykid> the year of HABE2 and glider& hopefully&.. :P
[11:00] <eroomde> cuddykid: yes please please get that glider flying
[11:00] <eroomde> that would be fantastic
[11:00] <fsphil> eroomde, don't. I've only put aliases in there- nothing fancier
[11:01] <cuddykid> eroomde: I'll try my best :D
[11:01] <cuddykid> airframe is probably 1/2 way there now
[11:01] <eroomde> fsphil: ok thanks
[11:02] <eroomde> that's basically all mine is, some exports and some aliases
[11:02] <fsphil> hehe, global notice forgot that most of the populated world is in china and india
[11:02] <eroomde> hmm new years displacement activity #1: rationalise .vimrc and plugins
[11:02] <fsphil> I use vim, but have yet to mess with .vimrc
[11:03] <fsphil> I really must start
[11:03] <eroomde> there's some stuff in there i'd die without
[11:03] <fsphil> I'm constantly :ts=2'ing
[11:03] <eroomde> loads of useful bits, from basics like tabs to spaces to also automatically running ctags on a file save
[11:03] <fsphil> should probably just set that in there
[11:04] <eroomde> but i have a few plugins that i'm pretty sure I haven't used properly so they should go
[11:25] Wil5on (~Wil5on@compsci.adl/eternalpresident/wil5on) joined #highaltitude.
[11:30] <daveake> fsphil (re Raul) thanks - sounds promising!
[11:57] nosebleedKT (~mixio@ppp079166176145.dsl.hol.gr) left irc: Ping timeout: 276 seconds
[12:23] navrac (545c0e05@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.92.14.5) joined #highaltitude.
[12:31] andrew_apex (~chatzilla@2.25.202.254) left irc: Ping timeout: 255 seconds
[12:36] RocketBoy (~steverand@5acfd4fd.bb.sky.com) joined #highaltitude.
[12:36] RocketBoy (steverand@5acfd4fd.bb.sky.com) left #highaltitude.
[12:36] RocketBoy (~steverand@5acfd4fd.bb.sky.com) joined #highaltitude.
[12:49] RocketBoy (steverand@5acfd4fd.bb.sky.com) left #highaltitude.
[12:57] chris_99 (~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929) joined #highaltitude.
[13:04] <cuddykid> oh this is annoying
[13:05] <cuddykid> downloaded new arduino software and now getting loads of compile errors from the tinygps library
[13:05] <cuddykid> looks like 'byte' is no longer supported - wtf!
[13:06] andrew_apex (~chatzilla@2.25.202.254) joined #highaltitude.
[13:06] <cuddykid> neither is 'millis' ?!?
[13:07] <fsphil> make sure the right headers are being #included
[13:07] <cuddykid> yep - nothing has changed from arduino IDE 0022 :S
[13:08] <cuddykid> but arduino 1.0 now is throwing up errors to do with tinygps.h
[13:09] <cuddykid> ahh, it's not compatible with new software - have to downgrade
[13:09] <fsphil> odd
[13:16] nosebleedKT (nosebleedK@ppp046177080115.dsl.hol.gr) joined #highaltitude.
[13:22] Lando-SpacePimp (~Lando_Cal@unaffiliated/lando-spacepimp) joined #highaltitude.
[13:55] Lando-SpacePimp (~Lando_Cal@unaffiliated/lando-spacepimp) left irc: Quit: This deal is getting worse all the time.
[14:17] Wil5on (~Wil5on@compsci.adl/eternalpresident/wil5on) left irc: Ping timeout: 276 seconds
[14:51] juxta (~juxta@ppp203-122-193-94.static.internode.on.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
[14:52] RocketBoy (~steverand@5acfd4fd.bb.sky.com) joined #highaltitude.
[14:56] andrew_apex (~chatzilla@2.25.202.254) left irc: Ping timeout: 252 seconds
[15:00] RocketBoy (steverand@5acfd4fd.bb.sky.com) left #highaltitude.
[15:07] RocketBoy (~steverand@5acfd4fd.bb.sky.com) joined #highaltitude.
[15:16] jcoxon (~jcoxon@87.113.166.40) joined #highaltitude.
[15:16] <jcoxon> afternoon
[15:19] <number10> afternoon
[15:19] <jcoxon> hey number10
[15:19] <jcoxon> number10, picoatlas6 is constructed
[15:20] <jcoxon> now playing with settings to get the power consumption as low as possibl
[15:20] <jcoxon> e
[15:20] <number10> excelent sounds like you are ready for next week
[15:20] <jcoxon> yeah should be
[15:20] <number10> hopefully have a few trackers
[15:21] <jcoxon> yeah, it will be a similar flight path
[15:21] <fsphil> weekend flight?
[15:21] <jcoxon> i'm thinking sunday
[15:21] <number10> you must have a stock of gps modules
[15:22] chris_99 (~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929) left irc: Ping timeout: 276 seconds
[15:22] <jcoxon> number10, indeed i do
[15:22] <jcoxon> just ordered 4 more
[15:22] <jcoxon> basically if i order something i nearly always order 2
[15:22] <fsphil> hehe, opened a 50000x40000 image on the other machine, broke X
[15:22] <number10> are you using the fsa03 jcoxon - as they have stopped making
[15:23] <jcoxon> number10, yeah i am
[15:23] <jcoxon> as they are the lightet around
[15:23] <jcoxon> managed to get some more recently
[15:24] <jcoxon> meant to be in the post on their way
[15:24] <number10> sequoia managed to get a few - dont know if its a last time buy
[15:24] <jcoxon> yeah i ordered 4 from them
[15:24] <fsphil> I think the future will be homebrew modules
[15:25] gb73d (gb73d@88-110-49-132.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) joined #highaltitude.
[15:25] chris_99 (~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929) joined #highaltitude.
[15:25] <jcoxon> i've also got 2 antenova ublox 6's on order
[15:26] <jcoxon> to see what they are like
[15:26] <jcoxon> though it looks like they are waiting for stock
[15:26] <number10> I have not seen those
[15:27] <jcoxon> no one has used them yet
[15:27] <jcoxon> in theory they are very small
[15:27] <jcoxon> but are complicated - need additional circuitry
[15:27] <jcoxon> which is a bit annoying
[15:29] <number10> just did a quick search - is this the one http://www.anglia.com/newsarchive/pdfs/3002.pdf ?
[15:29] <jcoxon> yup
[15:30] <jcoxon> on Upu's breakout board for hte ublox modules what is the additional component required?
[15:30] <fsphil> external to the board?
[15:31] <jcoxon> i've got module and a pcb
[15:31] <jcoxon> but it looks like a smt part is also required
[15:31] <number10> looks like just a cap http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:ublox6
[15:32] <fsphil> yea
[15:35] <jcoxon> hmmmm
[15:35] Elwell (~elwell@freenode/staff/elwell) joined #highaltitude.
[15:35] <jcoxon> don't have any smt caps
[15:36] <fsphil> you could risk going without it, or add it later
[15:36] <jcoxon> any idea what cap it is
[15:36] <fsphil> very likely for decoupling
[15:36] <number10> I am sure I could get some if you need - let me know size and value
[15:36] <jcoxon> hmmm maybe i can use a through hole
[15:37] <jcoxon> with some careful soldering
[15:37] <fsphil> yea, it's connected between gnd and vcc
[15:37] <fsphil> you could solder a cap onto the gnd and vcc pins
[15:37] <jcoxon> fsphil, thats a good idea
[15:37] <jcoxon> okay i think we'll aim for next sunday for launch
[15:38] <jcoxon> though only if its sensible launch conditions
[15:39] <number10> looking forward to it - I best take Mrs#10 out on saturday so I get permission for HAB on sunday
[15:39] <fsphil> lol
[15:39] <jcoxon> hehe
[15:39] <jcoxon> i think its best i launch from suffolk
[15:39] <jcoxon> bit annoying driving up from kent
[15:39] <eroomde> yo
[15:39] <jcoxon> but launching from kent puts it too far south to start with
[15:39] <jcoxon> hey eroomde
[15:40] <cuddykid> great news jcoxon :D
[15:40] <cuddykid> have you tried solar panels on your flights to generate a little more power?
[15:40] <number10> at least you get to see the family as well I presume
[15:41] <jcoxon> cuddykid, yeah, its not that easy, they don't provide much current
[15:41] Action: SpeedEvil looks at his 2kW of solar cells.
[15:41] <jcoxon> i've been working on a solarpanel/lipo combo
[15:41] <SpeedEvil> (note, not solar panels)
[15:41] <cuddykid> jcoxon: ahh ok :)
[15:41] <jcoxon> but it gets heavy quickly
[15:42] <cuddykid> yeah
[15:43] <jcoxon> people are very welcome to help out on this project
[15:44] <cuddykid> I'm planning some small solar cells on my next flight, just planning to collect data though no lipo system just yet
[15:54] Elwell (~elwell@freenode/staff/elwell) left irc: Ping timeout: 255 seconds
[15:55] Elwell (~elwell@freenode/staff/elwell) joined #highaltitude.
[16:04] MrCraig (~Craig@host-78-150-109-27.as13285.net) joined #highaltitude.
[16:04] <MrCraig> happy new year all
[16:06] <NigelMoby> u to mrcraig :)
[16:07] <NigelMoby> Jcoxon its a 100nf 0603 on the gps breakout.
[16:07] <MrCraig> ty
[16:15] chembrow (~chris@188-221-15-153.zone12.bethere.co.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[16:15] <fsphil> really high altitude: http://i.imgur.com/cZvSG.png
[16:15] <fsphil> fuzzy image from arissat1
[16:17] <chembrow> afternoon
[16:17] <SpeedEvil> Is that the one that's getting rather warm?
[16:17] <fsphil> yea
[16:17] <fsphil> starting to loose altitude pretty quickly now too
[16:17] <fsphil> I give it a few more days
[16:21] <cuddykid> tail wing made :)
[16:21] <SpeedEvil> :)
[16:22] earthshine_ (~Mike@cpc1-orpi1-0-0-cust99.2-3.cable.virginmedia.com) joined #highaltitude.
[16:24] <MrCraig> where's that image from fsphil?
[16:25] <Upu> jcoxon its a decoupling cap
[16:25] andrew_apex (~chatzilla@2.25.202.254) joined #highaltitude.
[16:25] <fsphil> MrCraig, mmsstv - received it on the last pass
[16:25] <SpeedEvil> fsphil: :)
[16:25] <Upu> I'll solder one on and send a board if you want
[16:25] <SpeedEvil> fsphil: Is the noise internal, or external do you think/
[16:25] <jcoxon> Upu its cool i've got 2 boards and 3 modules
[16:25] <fsphil> the noise at the start is caused by my colinear I think
[16:26] <fsphil> the satellite was in a null
[16:26] <SpeedEvil> ah
[16:26] <fsphil> I tried aiming a yagi at it with a funcube dongle recording, but spectravue decided at that moment it couldn't see a funcube dongle at all
[16:32] earthshine_ (~Mike@cpc1-orpi1-0-0-cust99.2-3.cable.virginmedia.com) left irc: Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi
[16:35] Lando-SpacePimp (~Lando_Cal@unaffiliated/lando-spacepimp) joined #highaltitude.
[16:44] <RocketBoy> jcoxon: did you conclude anything about the ascent profile of your last flight - best guess as to the dip and re-ascent?
[16:47] jcoxon (~jcoxon@87.113.166.40) left irc: Quit: Leaving
[16:56] chris_99 (~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929) left irc: Ping timeout: 276 seconds
[17:08] andrew_apex (~chatzilla@2.25.202.254) left irc: Read error: Connection reset by peer
[17:09] chris_99 (~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929) joined #highaltitude.
[17:11] andrew_apex (~chatzilla@2.25.202.254) joined #highaltitude.
[17:20] AndChat- (~nigel@31.94.239.107) joined #highaltitude.
[17:22] NigelMoby (~nigel@cpc5-cdif13-2-0-cust232.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com) left irc: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
[17:24] AndChat- (~nigel@31.94.239.107) left irc: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
[17:26] RocketBoy (~steverand@5acfd4fd.bb.sky.com) left irc: Quit: RocketBoy
[17:33] NigeyS (~Nigel@cpc5-cdif13-2-0-cust232.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com) joined #highaltitude.
[17:34] Laurenceb_ (~Laurence@host86-177-62-66.range86-177.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[17:40] Jasperw (~jasperw@2a01:348:82:0:223:5aff:fef5:cce) joined #highaltitude.
[17:46] <Laurenceb_> http://lana-sator.livejournal.com/160176.html#cutid1
[17:47] <Laurenceb_> that looks slightly dangerous, im guessing hydrazine tanks
[18:13] <Lando-SpacePimp> 0-p mn5555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555
[18:13] <SpeedEvil> yeah - saw that.
[18:14] <SpeedEvil> Awesomely freaky long-exposure pics
[18:14] <Lando-SpacePimp> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2078428/Great-space-ball-mystery-SOLVED.html
[18:14] <Lando-SpacePimp> SpeedEvil: What are you doing here.
[18:14] <Upu> oh yay for the Mail
[18:14] <Upu> glad they cleared that one up
[18:14] <SpeedEvil> Where would we be without the mail.
[18:15] <Upu> suprised they didn't blame it on illegal immigrants extreme weather fair dodging free loaders tbh
[18:15] <Lando-SpacePimp> SpeedEvil: Favourite sounding rocket?
[18:15] <SpeedEvil> Lando-SpacePimp: Ones that go 'ping'.
[18:16] <Lando-SpacePimp> I like the classicalness of the Nike-based sounding rockets.
[18:16] <Lando-SpacePimp> And that they're military --> science program
[18:18] <SpeedEvil> black arrow
[18:19] <Lando-SpacePimp> That's no sounding rocket.
[18:33] <nosebleedKT> yo
[18:34] <nosebleedKT> haha nice
[18:35] <nosebleedKT> It was hailed as a doomsday device, an instrument from a weather balloon or proof that extra terrestrial life existed.
[18:35] <nosebleedKT> Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2078428/Great-space-ball-mystery-SOLVED.html#ixzz1iEVgHDz1
[18:35] <nosebleedKT> shit! stupid copy-paste
[18:37] <SpeedEvil> " Some claimed that it could be an escaped particle from the Large Hadron Collider, reindeer droppings or a Quaffle from the Harry Potter films. " They were all wrong - it's part of the ball-valve mechanism from God's toilet. - Philip, Bankrupted Britain, 25/12/2011 22:39
[18:44] <Laurenceb_> i was playing football with one of those in the park
[18:45] <Laurenceb_> some kids were asking their parents what it was XD
[18:49] navrac (545c0e05@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.92.14.5) left irc: Ping timeout: 258 seconds
[18:51] <Lando-SpacePimp> Laurenceb_: You were playing with a ball-valve?
[18:52] <Laurenceb_> yes
[18:58] <Lando-SpacePimp> In the park?
[18:58] andrew_apex_ (~chatzilla@2.27.81.16) joined #highaltitude.
[18:59] andrew_apex (~chatzilla@2.25.202.254) left irc: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
[18:59] Nick change: andrew_apex_ -> andrew_apex
[19:03] <SpeedEvil> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pn-Wv9YAfv0
[19:03] <SpeedEvil> Defibrilator teardown
[19:03] Paradoxial (~Paradoxia@pool-108-28-22-94.washdc.fios.verizon.net) joined #highaltitude.
[19:05] <Lando-SpacePimp> SpeedEvil: That guys voice is annoying.
[19:05] <SpeedEvil> Less so than Dave though.
[19:05] <Lando-SpacePimp> Dave?
[19:06] <SpeedEvil> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMBK0apFMs4&feature=context&context=G20b9720FUAAAAAAABAA
[19:06] <SpeedEvil> Dave
[19:07] <fsphil> he's nuts
[19:08] <Lando-SpacePimp> OMG LOL
[19:10] Action: daveake checks video, then relaxes :)
[19:10] <fsphil> lol
[19:23] MrCraig (~Craig@host-78-150-109-27.as13285.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
[19:32] <SpeedEvil> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=IMBK0apFMs4#t=1363s - how to stabilise a quadcopter
[19:32] Laurenceb_ (~Laurence@host86-177-62-66.range86-177.btcentralplus.com) left irc: Read error: Connection reset by peer
[19:35] nosebleedKT_ (~mixio@79.167.5.138) joined #highaltitude.
[19:36] nosebleedKT (nosebleedK@ppp046177080115.dsl.hol.gr) left irc: Ping timeout: 248 seconds
[19:38] Elwell (~elwell@freenode/staff/elwell) left irc: Ping timeout: 252 seconds
[19:38] Laurenceb_ (~Laurence@host86-177-62-66.range86-177.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[19:39] Elwell (~elwell@freenode/staff/elwell) joined #highaltitude.
[19:46] <Upu> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOafqCpF8KU bit hard to make out whats going on but thats a Yaesu AZ/EL mount controlled via an Arduino. I mounted a webcam on it and told it point at the moon and jupiter
[19:46] <Upu> which it did
[19:48] <Upu> this is the start of my "northern" UKHAS tracking site :)
[19:48] <daveake> :D
[19:48] <fsphil> you've half a goto telescope!
[19:48] <fsphil> oooh
[19:48] <fsphil> now there's a thought
[19:50] <Upu> radio telescope maybe
[19:50] <fsphil> not waterproof, but for temporary setups: http://www.365astronomy.com/astromaster-altaz-tripod-mount-w-14x20-photo-adapter-p-2611.html?zenid=d9f4eedb534489c2cab4f24ef8fb3e76
[19:50] <Upu> wonder if jupiter transmits on 70cms
[19:51] <fsphil> mostly HF I think
[19:53] <fsphil> although, at 2.4ghz-ish: http://www.spacetoday.org/images/SolSys/Jupiter/JupiterRadio/JupiterRadioImage13cm.jpg
[19:53] <Upu> wow
[19:54] <fsphil> probably needs a huge dish or array to get that kind of image
[19:54] <Upu> I joined the amateur DSN Yahoo group
[19:54] <fsphil> should be able to detect a lot of noise from the sun too
[19:54] <Upu> and they seem to have 1.5 meter dishes for certain stuff
[19:55] <fsphil> nice
[19:55] <Upu> though you seem to need 5 meters + for certain objects
[19:55] <Upu> 20 meters for Voyager 1
[19:56] <fsphil> not unexpected
[19:59] jcoxon (~jcoxon@87.113.166.40) joined #highaltitude.
[20:05] gb73d (gb73d@88-110-49-132.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) left irc: Quit: Whoosh we're gone
[20:24] GW8RAK (~chatzilla@host-78-150-134-219.as13285.net) joined #highaltitude.
[20:24] GW8RAK (chatzilla@host-78-150-134-219.as13285.net) left #highaltitude.
[20:26] Wild-Wing (~chatzilla@c-98-229-152-229.hsd1.ct.comcast.net) joined #highaltitude.
[20:26] chembrow_ (~chris@188-221-15-153.zone12.bethere.co.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[20:26] chembrow (~chris@188-221-15-153.zone12.bethere.co.uk) left irc: Ping timeout: 252 seconds
[20:26] chembrow_ (~chris@188-221-15-153.zone12.bethere.co.uk) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[20:38] nosebleedKT_ (~mixio@79.167.5.138) left irc: Quit: If you run you only gonna die tired
[20:45] Wild-Wing (~chatzilla@c-98-229-152-229.hsd1.ct.comcast.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 244 seconds
[20:52] Wild-Wing (~chatzilla@c-98-229-152-229.hsd1.ct.comcast.net) joined #highaltitude.
[20:56] andrew_apex (~chatzilla@2.27.81.16) left irc: Ping timeout: 252 seconds
[21:06] Wild-Wing (~chatzilla@c-98-229-152-229.hsd1.ct.comcast.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 244 seconds
[21:34] andrew_apex (~chatzilla@2.27.81.16) joined #highaltitude.
[21:40] <daveake> I see the channel went quiet when Sherlock was on :)
[21:40] <jcoxon> daveake, haha
[21:42] <russss> daveake: I didn't know it was on until after it had started, I'm going to catch it on iplayer :P
[21:42] <daveake> :)
[21:42] <SpeedEvil> Is it worth watching then/
[21:42] Action: SpeedEvil adds.
[21:42] <daveake> Yep
[21:42] Action: SpeedEvil hugs get_iplayer
[21:42] <Lando-SpacePimp> SpeedEvil: I LIKE TRAINS!
[21:42] <Lando-SpacePimp> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHkKJfcBXcw
[21:42] <russss> the first series was excellent
[21:43] <russss> 20mins to GRAIL-B lunar orbit insertion
[21:43] <russss> I'm watching it on http://solarsystem.nasa.gov/eyes/
[21:43] <daveake> I've made a stop-frame video of the Buzz1 launch preparation, taken by a Canon Powershot on a tripod - http://youtu.be/EPMAo9A--sI
[21:44] <SpeedEvil> russss: Oooh
[21:44] <SpeedEvil> I've wondered about surfing the masscons.
[21:45] <SpeedEvil> If you imagine the gravity map as an infinite bumpy field (which wraps) which your craft 'falls' down - it should be possible with good gravity maps to 'surf' it.
[21:45] <SpeedEvil> Using small amounts of delta-v to create large changes, or merely avoid flying into terrain.
[21:45] <SpeedEvil> Rather than simply brute-forcing.
[21:45] <SpeedEvil> and applying large amounts of delta-v as is othewise needed fo all lunar orbits.
[21:46] andrew_apex_ (~chatzilla@2.27.101.182) joined #highaltitude.
[21:48] andrew_apex (~chatzilla@2.27.81.16) left irc: Ping timeout: 260 seconds
[21:48] RocketBoy (~steverand@5acfd4fd.bb.sky.com) joined #highaltitude.
[21:48] Nick change: andrew_apex_ -> andrew_apex
[21:50] <RocketBoy> hey Darkside
[21:56] <fsphil> great show sherlock
[21:56] <SpeedEvil> ok - I guess The_Newly_Discovered_Casebook_of_Sherlock_Holmes_-_5._Holmes_Strikes_a_Happy_Medium_b00bf0l6_default.aac
[21:57] <SpeedEvil> Is probably not what you were meaning?
[21:57] <russss> no, it's just called Sherlock
[21:57] Wild-Wing (~chatzilla@c-98-229-152-229.hsd1.ct.comcast.net) joined #highaltitude.
[21:57] <russss> and tonight's is Series 2 Episode 1
[21:57] <russss> but I would recommend watching series 1 first
[21:57] <SpeedEvil> I guess it's not added to the index yet
[21:57] <fsphil> won't be on the iplayer yet
[21:57] <fsphil> was only just on
[21:58] <russss> it literally just finished I think
[21:58] <daveake> Finished 20 mins ago
[21:58] Action: fsphil was watching it with a 20 minute delay :)
[21:59] Action: SpeedEvil does not watch iplayer live, as that would require a TV licence.
[21:59] Action: daveake didn't know NI had its own time zone :)
[22:00] Action: SpeedEvil ponders a GMT-175200 comment.
[22:00] <fsphil> pvr :)
[22:01] <jcoxon> hey RocketBoy
[22:01] <daveake> :). We've got a Foxsat PVR (no HD on Freview here till later this year)
[22:01] <fsphil> this is a foxsat too, the hd one - great except for the very very slow UI
[22:01] <RocketBoy> yo - jcoxon - how you getting on with p6
[22:02] <jcoxon> yeah i've got MK2 working
[22:02] <jcoxon> ready to go pretty much
[22:03] <jcoxon> thinking about a week today
[22:04] <RocketBoy> cool
[22:04] andrew_apex_ (~chatzilla@2.27.101.182) joined #highaltitude.
[22:04] <jcoxon> when are you going to fly your pico payload?
[22:05] andrew_apex (~chatzilla@2.27.101.182) left irc: Ping timeout: 248 seconds
[22:05] <RocketBoy> do't know - I'll probably try to get the weight down from 50g first
[22:05] Nick change: andrew_apex_ -> andrew_apex
[22:06] <jcoxon> aim for single balloon flight?
[22:06] <RocketBoy> how are you gettinf on with the TPS61200?
[22:06] <jcoxon> yeah
[22:06] <RocketBoy> yeah
[22:06] <jcoxon> working well
[22:06] <jcoxon> now that i've modded it for low UVLO
[22:06] <RocketBoy> single AAA?
[22:06] <jcoxon> yup
[22:06] <jcoxon> yet to do a long duration test
[22:07] <RocketBoy> I finally got the inReach working (bluetooth paring problems) - need to fly it now
[22:07] <jcoxon> hehe
[22:08] <RocketBoy> its a bit bigger than I thought
[22:08] <RocketBoy> sort of coke can size
[22:08] <RocketBoy> about 250g
[22:08] <jcoxon> it could be stripped down
[22:09] <jcoxon> i susepct a lot is packaging
[22:09] <RocketBoy> need to hack the bluetoth now
[22:09] <jcoxon> is it worth going straight for the serial lines?
[22:09] <RocketBoy> well the case is waterproof - so I may leve it on for sea landings
[22:10] <RocketBoy> rather not if it can be hacked
[22:10] <jcoxon> fair enough :-)
[22:10] <jcoxon> that blog article should help
[22:10] Zuph (Zuph@2001:470:8:626:21d:7dff:fe0b:5e97) left #highaltitude ("Leaving").
[22:11] Zuph (~Zuph@2001:470:8:626:21d:7dff:fe0b:5e97) joined #highaltitude.
[22:11] <RocketBoy> yeah I need some form of bluetooth snooper
[22:11] <Zuph> IIRC, you can pair with any bluetooth device, and snoop with wireshark.
[22:11] <Zuph> Or use HCIDump on an android device.
[22:12] <Zuph> Dan, et al. have been going with the HCIDump route for Android-ey traffic.
[22:12] <RocketBoy> cheers - I'll give that a try
[22:12] <Zuph> need to root it, though.
[22:16] Nick change: Lando-SpacePimp -> Lando-Away
[22:16] Nick change: Lando-Away -> Lando-SpacePimp
[22:17] <zyp> I've done that too
[22:17] <Laurenceb_> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/180786734741?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1558.l2649#ht_500wt_1413
[22:18] <Laurenceb_> holy shit
[22:19] <russss> wow
[22:19] <Zuph> jeebus
[22:19] <Zuph> I'll take my BeagleBone, thanks
[22:26] Paradoxial (~Paradoxia@pool-108-28-22-94.washdc.fios.verizon.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
[22:27] <jcoxon> eek
[22:27] Wild-Wing (~chatzilla@c-98-229-152-229.hsd1.ct.comcast.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 244 seconds
[22:30] Lando-SpacePimp (~Lando_Cal@unaffiliated/lando-spacepimp) left irc: Quit: This deal is getting worse all the time.
[22:33] jcoxon (~jcoxon@87.113.166.40) left irc: Quit: Leaving
[22:33] Wild-Wing (~chatzilla@c-98-229-152-229.hsd1.ct.comcast.net) joined #highaltitude.
[22:37] <fsphil> madness!!
[22:38] jcoxon (~jcoxon@87.113.166.40) joined #highaltitude.
[22:42] <daveake> FMR
[22:45] <Laurenceb_> madness?! THIS. IS. RASPBERRY PI
[22:45] <jcoxon> hehe
[22:46] <daveake> Buy it then launch it. Then you'd have Pi In The Sky
[22:52] <joph> lol
[22:52] <joph> on of the first raspberry pi :D
[22:52] <SpeedEvil> I think I can hold off for the retail units at that price.
[22:54] <daveake> Not a stupidly rich early-adopter then? :)
[22:56] <SpeedEvil> No.
[22:56] <SpeedEvil> My fastest computer is ~5yo
[22:56] <daveake> :)
[22:56] <SpeedEvil> core duo 1.8
[22:57] <daveake> I just bought a new laptop and PC to replace my 2-year-old ones :p
[22:57] <SpeedEvil> I'm depressed I can't upgrade, and keep 4:5
[22:57] <SpeedEvil> 4:3
[22:59] <joph> i have on the desktop a 16:9 tft and at the laptop a 16:10 screen
[23:00] <daveake> It's worse than that. My old laptop has a 1920x1200 display, and the previous one was 1600x1200. Now the best you can get is 1920x1080. So in the quest for widescreen the manufacturers just chopped the vertical resolution. I ended up buying "last month's" model on ebay jsut to get the resolution.
[23:00] Paradoxial (~Paradoxia@pool-108-28-22-94.washdc.fios.verizon.net) joined #highaltitude.
[23:00] <daveake> Desktop has 3 x 1920x1200 monitors. Those have recently doubled in price as the newer models are all 1920x1080
[23:01] <joph> mine has just 1680x1050
[23:01] <daveake> I like pixels
[23:01] <SpeedEvil> :/
[23:01] Action: Laurenceb_ uses 2x http://www.dabs.com/products/iiyama-pro-lite-e1906s-1-19--lcd-monitor---1280-x-1024-res--5ms-dvi-d-vga---with-speakers-7KQX.html?refs=49680000&q=iyama%20prolite&src=16
[23:01] <SpeedEvil> Way too many laptop displays top out at 140dpi, if that
[23:02] <SpeedEvil> I want at least 200dpi on a laptop
[23:04] <daveake> Old one had a 15.4" screen at 1920x1200. Fearing that my aging eyesight might start struggling with that soon, my new one is 17" at the sameresolution
[23:04] <daveake> Heavy beast tho
[23:05] <zyp> one of my laptops are 130 ppi or so
[23:05] <zyp> 230*
[23:06] <Laurenceb_> arggggg
[23:06] <Laurenceb_> stupid openpilot
[23:06] <Laurenceb_> the release a new GCS without testing at all buadrates
[23:09] Wild-Wing (~chatzilla@c-98-229-152-229.hsd1.ct.comcast.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 244 seconds
[23:09] number10 (568eafbe@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.142.175.190) left irc: Ping timeout: 258 seconds
[23:09] daveake (daveake@daveake.plus.com) left #highaltitude.
[23:12] <fsphil> not a big fan of 16:9 screens
[23:12] <fsphil> or glossy screens
[23:13] <SpeedEvil> I'm actually sorta-tempted to resurrect several PII/300 laptops.
[23:13] setpixel (Adium@cpe-66-108-116-57.nyc.res.rr.com) left #highaltitude.
[23:13] <SpeedEvil> The Ipad 2 screen would pefectly fit.
[23:13] <SpeedEvil> And reduce weight by a fair bit.
[23:14] <SpeedEvil> As would pulling the motherboard and replacing it with a pandaboard, or raspberry pi
[23:14] <SpeedEvil> And increase battery life
[23:14] <fsphil> cheaper: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180786864217
[23:14] <SpeedEvil> Ending up with maybe a 800g 10h+ life 10" display laptop with a lovely keyboard and trackpoint.
[23:16] <zyp> my high-ppi laptop is 25:12
[23:16] <zyp> though, it's only 1600x768 on 8"
[23:16] <zyp> 222 ppi actually
[23:20] RocketBoy (~steverand@5acfd4fd.bb.sky.com) left irc: Quit: RocketBoy
[23:28] <Laurenceb_> oh the logo was updated
[23:29] <Laurenceb_> sorry im probably really slow
[23:29] <Laurenceb_> wasnt that natriums logo?
[23:35] <fsphil> yea
[23:42] jcoxon (~jcoxon@87.113.166.40) left irc: Quit: Leaving
[23:56] fsphil-laptop (~phil@2001:8b0:34:1:219:d2ff:fe09:a6b9) joined #highaltitude.
[00:00] --- Mon Jan 2 2012