highaltitude.log.20111230

[00:02] <Raul_> no, no luck with tuning the receiver
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[00:02] <daveake> ok
[00:02] <Raul_> will a screenshot help?
[00:02] <daveake> Uploading a wav might
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[00:36] <Lunar_Lander> damn internet
[00:36] <Lunar_Lander> Upu are you still here?
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[09:01] <x-f> something weird with this Ublox -
[09:02] <x-f> $PUBX,00,085747.00,5656.68738,N,02408.45354,E,13.967,G3,24,34,1.051,146.05,0.355,,2.47,5.01,2.72,6,0,0*59
[09:02] <Darkside> eh?
[09:02] <Darkside> thats the standard PUBX output string
[09:02] <x-f> 3D fix and 6 sats, but it puts me in the see 250 km away
[09:02] <Darkside> hah
[09:02] <Darkside> yeah ok
[09:02] <x-f> latitude seems to be right, but longitude is way off
[09:02] <Darkside> dunno
[09:03] <x-f> in the sea*
[09:03] <Darkside> i've had ublox 6 modules give weird repord when they have no lock
[09:03] <Darkside> hmm
[09:03] <Darkside> im not sure what all the values in that string are
[09:03] <Darkside> i'm wondering what the 146.05 is
[09:04] <Darkside> hopefully not your hdop
[09:04] <x-f> bearing
[09:04] <Darkside> ok
[09:04] <x-f> DOP values are at the end - 2.47,5.01,2.72
[09:04] <Darkside> mm
[09:04] <x-f> 24,34 - horizontal and vertical accuracy
[09:05] <Darkside> well something has certaily gone weird
[09:05] <x-f> yup
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[09:11] <x-f> could it be because of signal reflection? i have some tall buildings around here and quite a small window of clear sky
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[09:13] <x-f> altitude seems right, just the longitude..
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[09:34] <daveake> fsphil I think you need to upgrade your HAB camera to one like this - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-16358851 :)
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[09:54] <fsphil> arg, copy and paste fail. I can't get at the link
[09:54] <fsphil> ah there we go
[09:55] <fsphil> nice!
[09:55] <fsphil> sure, it would take about 2 years to transmit one image at 300 baud
[09:55] <daveake> There is that :)
[09:56] <fsphil> it would be perfect for hab mapping
[09:56] <fsphil> even a few km up, it would have quite detailed images
[09:57] <fsphil> I've always wanted to get a nice aerial photograph of this town
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[11:04] <nosebleedKT> hi all
[11:04] <SpeedEvil> hi
[11:08] <nosebleedKT> I got my first salary !
[11:08] <SpeedEvil> Congrats!
[11:11] <SamSilver> Bravo!
[11:11] <nosebleedKT> :)
[11:12] <nosebleedKT> !
[11:12] <nosebleedKT> everybody give me your paypals to send you 5e for a beer!
[11:12] <nosebleedKT> got a custom here to take family and friends for food or drink :)
[11:13] <nosebleedKT> ping fsphil
[11:13] <nosebleedKT> :)
[11:14] <Upu> congrats
[11:14] <nosebleedKT> thank you thank you :)
[11:14] <Upu> welcome to the wonderful world of paying tax
[11:14] <nosebleedKT> hahaha
[11:14] <nosebleedKT> i dont care
[11:15] <nosebleedKT> i have my own money now by doing linux :)
[11:15] <nosebleedKT> that is the most wonderful thing :P
[11:16] <SamSilver> HAB still flying in april?
[11:17] <nosebleedKT> possibly, despite i got the gsm module broken. Bought already a new one/
[11:17] <nosebleedKT> http://www.geekonfire.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7_49&products_id=78
[11:18] <nosebleedKT> april, may, june all is possible :)
[11:18] <nosebleedKT> with new year i need to pay a visit to airforce too :)
[11:25] Action: nosebleedKT goes out !
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[11:29] <fsphil> lol
[11:29] <fsphil> I still remember my first pay check :)
[11:32] <fsphil> used it and some money I'd saved to get a gameboy
[11:33] <fsphil> typically only a week before they dropped the prices
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[12:39] <cuddykid> does anyone know where jcoxon found fsa03s? I've been looking everywhere for them!
[12:40] <number10> they have stopped making them but..
[12:40] <x-f> cuddykid, http://www.sequoia.co.uk/shop/product.php?p=807
[12:40] <number10> http://www.sequoia.co.uk/shop/product.php?p=807
[12:40] <cuddykid> nice, thanks :d
[12:40] <cuddykid> :D
[12:40] <cuddykid> looks like may as well buy 2 if I'm going to get them
[12:40] <cuddykid> only £4 more!
[12:41] <number10> yes - is silly pricing scheme
[12:41] <number10> no further reductions for 2+
[12:42] <cuddykid> are they easy to interface with arduino? Lassens are dead easy, I'm hoping for a similar level of ease :P
[12:43] <x-f> you just solder four wires to it - rx, tx, vcc and gnd
[12:43] <cuddykid> awesome
[12:44] <cuddykid> doesn't have any eeprom on board - that's a little annoying, but not a big problem - will just need reflashing via arduino I guess
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[12:55] <Upu> hey cuddykid you can use the new uBlox 6 chips
[12:55] <Upu> they are just serial
[12:56] <cuddykid> poo, sounds good
[12:56] <cuddykid> *ooo - stupid autocorrect :P
[12:56] <cuddykid> do you have a linky?
[12:56] <Upu> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:ublox6
[12:56] <cuddykid> cheers
[12:56] <Upu> I made a breakout board for it
[12:57] <Upu> uses same antenna as the FSA03
[12:57] <cuddykid> is it difficult to solder onto breadboard? looks tiny!
[12:58] <Upu> Well you solder it on to the breakout and that just plugs in
[12:58] <Upu> its surface mount , quite easy with the right iron
[12:58] <Upu> and secret sauce : flux
[12:58] <cuddykid> ahh ok :)
[12:58] <Upu> http://www.google.co.uk/products/catalog?q=chipquik+flux&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=14348379773309560159&sa=X&ei=dbX9TsiLNqLn0QGPwPTIAg&ved=0CD4Q8wIwAw
[12:58] <Upu> that stuff is amazing
[12:59] <Upu> I'll make some up for you if you get the parts, I have spare boards
[13:00] <cuddykid> oh thanks, I'll have a look, at some stage I'll deffo need another gps module
[13:01] <Upu> don't be scared of the surface mount
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[13:01] <cuddykid> I'll deffo give it a try
[13:01] <DanielRichman> +1 surface mount is great
[13:02] <Upu> easier than through hole to be honest
[13:02] <cuddykid> problem atm is I need quite a few different bits and pieces and I'm trying to decide which bits to prioritise
[13:02] <Upu> especially when designing boards
[13:02] <cuddykid> is it 5hz?
[13:02] <Upu> uBlox 6 ?
[13:03] <cuddykid> yep
[13:04] <Upu> think it can be
[13:04] <Upu> defaults to 1Hz I believe
[13:04] <Upu> very quick start up
[13:04] <Upu> yeah 5Hz
[13:05] <Upu> http://www.u-blox.com/images/downloads/Product_Docs/NEO-6_DataSheet_%28GPS.G6-HW-09005%29.pdf
[13:05] <cuddykid> that's even better
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[13:05] <Upu> faster lock, less power good to 50000meters
[13:05] <cuddykid> will be used in glider if I do get one
[13:15] <cuddykid> does it have eeprom on board to store settings?
[13:15] <Upu> check data sheet but you can put a battery on it fairly trivially
[13:15] <Upu> brb
[13:15] <cuddykid> will do :)
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[13:22] <NickB1> does anyone have any spare smd terminals for the lassen iq ?
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[13:25] <danielsaul> NickB1: You can order samples - I got about 20
[13:25] <danielsaul> NickB1: I'll find the link
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[13:27] <NickB1> ok thanks
[13:28] <NigeyMoby> buy a hammer to
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[13:28] <NickB1> I ordered them at Farnell but didnt came with the order
[13:28] <NigeyMoby> Ull need it when you get bored of waiting 3 hours for the dam thing to get a lock :-)
[13:29] <NickB1> strange
[13:29] <NickB1> it got a lock within 10 minutes the first time i tried it
[13:29] <danielsaul> NickB1: http://www.samtec.com/SuddenService/Samples/SampleForm.aspx
[13:29] <NickB1> it also had a battery backup now
[13:30] <NigeyMoby> Ahh that'll help
[13:30] <danielsaul> NickB1: Code is CLP-104-02-G-D
[13:30] <danielsaul> They came quite quickly if I remember correctly
[13:30] <NickB1> thanks danielsaul!
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[13:31] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[13:31] <Lunar_Lander> fsphil, Upu anyone who was here last night
[13:31] <UpuWork> hi
[13:31] <Lunar_Lander> what was Raul's status ion the end?
[13:31] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[13:31] <UpuWork> no idea
[13:31] <UpuWork> I went to bed
[13:31] <Lunar_Lander> OK
[13:31] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[13:31] <Lunar_Lander> and my internet dropped out all the time :(
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[13:42] <Lunar_Lander> thanks anyway UpuWork
[13:51] <DanielRichman> Lunar_Lander: http://habhub.org/zeusbot
[13:52] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[13:52] <Lunar_Lander> that I didn't think of that
[13:52] <Lunar_Lander> sorry
[13:52] <Lunar_Lander> thanks DanielRichman
[13:52] <Lunar_Lander> see you all later!
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[15:53] <x-f> ok, took my uBlox for a ride, it's now reporting longitude correctly
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[15:59] <fsphil> ooh, received some aprs packets today again
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[16:19] <navrac> anyone used the rfm22 modules?
[16:22] <number10> I think jcoxon used one on picoatlas VI http://ukhas.org.uk/projects:picoatlas:picoatlasvi
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[16:31] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[16:32] <Laurenceb_> i dont see why you couldnt do rtty with the rf22
[16:32] <priyesh> what determines whether you are transmitting LSB or USB
[16:34] <SpeedEvil> If the spectrum is inverted or not
[16:34] <SpeedEvil> With USB, then a 1KHz tone is 1KHz above the 'carrier'.
[16:34] <SpeedEvil> With LSB, it's below
[16:35] <priyesh> ah
[16:35] <priyesh> thanks SpeedEvil
[16:37] <Laurenceb_> i mean theres a retune and a carrier on/off function in the arduino code
[16:37] <Laurenceb_> jcoxon just uses carrier on/off
[16:39] <navrac> I was struggling with the datasheet over the gpio registers - turns out the information I needed wasn't in the datasheet but in an application note.
[16:40] <Laurenceb_> the rfm22 datasheet?
[16:40] <navrac> I'm looking at using rtty with the rf22 - but the minimum frequency deviation is 625hz
[16:40] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[16:40] <Laurenceb_> ignore the datasheet
[16:40] <Laurenceb_> just grab the si4432 datasheet
[16:41] <navrac> yep - the si4432 datasheet is the same - but at least it pointed to the application note that told me how to route the external tx input to the right gpio pin
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[17:04] <jcoxon> evening
[17:05] <daveake> Evening.
[17:05] <daveake> Just finished my6 HAB kit :-) http://i.imgur.com/aMrBp.jpg
[17:05] <jcoxon> oh wow
[17:06] <cuddykid> nice daveake!
[17:06] <cuddykid> is that for in the field?
[17:06] <daveake> ta
[17:07] <daveake> yeah ... basically everything aside from the payload/chute/balloon/gas, aerials and computers
[17:07] <cuddykid> I don't see the rc helicopter with winch attached for payload removal from tree :P
[17:07] <daveake> lol
[17:07] <daveake> That has its own box :p
[17:07] <cuddykid> haha
[17:08] <daveake> My RC helis don't have enough lift :(
[17:08] <cuddykid> I used to have one until I crashed it spectacularly during it's 2nd flight
[17:09] <daveake> They tend to do that
[17:10] <fsphil-laptop> at least it was spectacular
[17:11] <fsphil-laptop> daveake, what kind of case is that?
[17:13] <daveake> http://cpc.farnell.com/hofbauer/957420/case-xtrabag-300-black/dp/SG33058
[17:14] <andrew_apex> daveake: how did you do such a great job cutting the foam?
[17:14] <fsphil-laptop> nice
[17:14] <fsphil-laptop> good price too
[17:14] <fsphil-laptop> something a bit deeper would be perfect for my 817 + batteries
[17:14] <number10> well thats very neat and tidy daveake - compared to my plastic carrier bag that I dropped and broke the AOR800
[17:15] <fsphil-laptop> !!
[17:15] <navrac> its a good idea, my ar8000 ended up beinng reversed over - its now completely flat
[17:16] <daveake> :(
[17:16] <jcoxon> number10, you'll be pleased to hear that i'm working on PicoAtlas6 MK2
[17:16] <daveake> andrew_apex - I just drew round each item with a marker pen, then cut with a sharp knife
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[17:17] <fsphil-laptop> does it still work navrac ?
[17:17] <number10> excellent jcoxon - hopefully will be launched on a weekend
[17:17] <andrew_apex> That worked really well. I rought a foam filled flight case for my ic-7000 hand had a messy job cutting a slot for it (hot wire)
[17:17] <fsphil-laptop> my old 817 got driven over, not a mark
[17:17] <daveake> How many receivers have you guys destroyed? :p
[17:17] <fsphil-laptop> personally, none yet ;)
[17:17] <jcoxon> number10, not sure it'll be ready for then
[17:18] <jcoxon> perhaps the weekend after
[17:18] <navrac> work? - no when i say flat - I really mean flat
[17:18] <fsphil-laptop> ooch
[17:18] <number10> my one still works - just needs a bit of tape to hold the batt cover on daveake
[17:18] <jcoxon> also not sure i'll be allowed to launch by the GF
[17:18] <jcoxon> i reckon my ft790 would survive being run over
[17:18] <jcoxon> they are built like a tank
[17:18] <daveake> Get your priorities right jcoxon :)
[17:18] <jcoxon> christmas eve was a step too far it seems :-p
[17:19] <navrac> In all fairness it was a truck..
[17:19] <fsphil-laptop> lol
[17:19] <number10> jcoxon, I did not mean next weekend - as long as its not a work day (normal workday for us slackers)
[17:19] <andrew_apex> daveake: what's the silver thing bottom left that looks like a bug finder for?
[17:19] <navrac> I did wonder about the choice of xmas eve - it made it difficult to find trackers who hadn't got to do the last minute xmas shopping
[17:20] <jcoxon> navrac, i wasn't working :-)
[17:20] <daveake> andrew_apex - it's a bug finder :D
[17:20] <daveake> Very handy as a quick check to see if a transmitter is Txing
[17:20] <andrew_apex> ah, clever :). I was wondering about the HAB link :P
[17:21] <daveake> Bought it years ago when I was working on rally car tracking
[17:21] <daveake> Not sure they're worth buying for HAB, but since I have one and it looks cool I put it in there :)
[17:22] <number10> daveake, you will definitely get stopped by security if you go on the chennel with that kitbox
[17:22] <daveake> lol
[17:23] <daveake> I'll tell them I'm filming the next Mission Impossible
[17:29] <number10> as long as its not tracking mission impossible ;)
[17:33] <Upu> http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b018g5tm/The_Life_Scientific_Colin_Pillinger/
[17:33] <Upu> of interest
[17:34] <SpeedEvil> eau
[17:34] <SpeedEvil> listened to that.
[17:34] <SpeedEvil> I diddn't realise that the beacon wasn't listened to by the carrier.
[17:34] <SpeedEvil> So no diagnostics.
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[17:41] <andrew_apex> Quick question: why do we go for a small shift (425Hz) rather than something bigger (say 1.2kHz)? Wouldn't that make it easier to decode? Or would it not make it any easier to decode, and only make it harder to tune (as the 300-3000 limit would mean you could get away with less or a poor tune)?
[17:41] <andrew_apex> *of a poor tune
[17:41] <SpeedEvil> It means that you have a wider spectrum that must be noise-free
[17:42] <SpeedEvil> The dsitance in between the carriers is only an issue from a signla decoding POV once the bitrate gets close to the seperation
[17:42] <andrew_apex> makes sense
[17:42] <andrew_apex> thanks SpeedEvil !
[17:42] <SpeedEvil> Close = say 5* or so.
[17:43] <andrew_apex> ah ok, i'm surprised you need it so much more...
[17:43] <andrew_apex> 300 baud must be quite close then?
[17:43] <SpeedEvil> Unless you shape the bitstream
[17:43] <SpeedEvil> If you band-limit the bitstream, you can go closer.
[17:44] <andrew_apex> am I right thinking 300 baud = 300 Hz (if the data is binary 10101010...)
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[17:45] <SpeedEvil> No.
[17:45] <SpeedEvil> 150
[17:45] <andrew_apex> obviously :P
[17:45] <SpeedEvil> 300 changes/second
[17:45] <andrew_apex> that makes sense :)
[17:45] <SpeedEvil> So 150Hz
[17:46] <SpeedEvil> If you think about the spectrum - it's the same as if you amplitude modulate each carrier - on-off keying
[17:46] <SpeedEvil> And add the two oppositely modulated carriers together.
[17:46] <andrew_apex> yup
[17:47] <SpeedEvil> So if you modulate the 'high' carrier with a 150Hz squarewave, you get spurious energy 150Hz from it, then 450Hz, ...
[17:47] <andrew_apex> I think that makes sense...
[17:48] <SpeedEvil> This would be a bad choice for a 450Hz spacing, as part of this energy appears over the opposite carrier
[17:48] <SpeedEvil> But if you used 400 baud, for example, it might actually work out better.
[17:49] <andrew_apex> interesting!
[17:49] <navrac> so the cc1101 and the rf22 both with a minimum of 625hz aren't really ideal
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[18:13] <cuddykid> tail fin or whatever you call it - done!
[18:15] <SpeedEvil> Today I fixed my variac.
[18:15] <SpeedEvil> And half-fixed the other one.
[18:23] <cuddykid> nice
[18:24] <cuddykid> have a big feeling the 1st test of this glider will be one big flop :P
[18:24] <cuddykid> as it nose dives
[18:24] <SpeedEvil> Is it made of stuff that will largely bounce?
[18:24] <cuddykid> styrofoam
[18:24] <SpeedEvil> ah
[18:24] <cuddykid> prone to lovely dents :(
[18:24] <SpeedEvil> Find a nice flat field
[18:25] <cuddykid> will probably fibreglass over it - though it already weighs quite a bit
[18:25] <cuddykid> yep - long grass too :D
[18:27] <cuddykid> does a high tail wing help with stability? (natural self righting)
[18:27] <cuddykid> e.g. like gpsboomerang one
[18:27] <SpeedEvil> Unsure
[18:28] <cuddykid> I can either go for a more sturdy tail wing in line with main wing or more flimsy higher one - currently I'm thinking lower one
[18:28] <Laurenceb_> cuddykid: no
[18:28] <Laurenceb_> a high tail makes it prone to spiral
[18:29] <cuddykid> Laurenceb_: oh that's fortunate! thanks :D
[18:29] <Laurenceb_> you should make the tail as small as possible to keep it yaw stable
[18:29] <cuddykid> is that the fin as well as wing?
[18:29] <Laurenceb_> no
[18:29] <Laurenceb_> just the vertical tailfin
[18:30] <cuddykid> brill
[18:30] <cuddykid> thanks
[18:30] <Laurenceb_> horizontal size effects phungoid oscillations
[18:31] <Laurenceb_> its a matter of fiddling around to see what works
[18:31] <Laurenceb_> ive found too small a horizontal tail surface and its not so much unstable as slow to respond
[18:31] <Laurenceb_> so it flies really poorly
[18:32] <Laurenceb_> goes into shallow dives and pulls out slowly, or stalls a lot
[18:32] <Laurenceb_> but i dont think horizontal tail size is quite so vital
[18:32] <cuddykid> ahh ok, thanks
[18:32] <Laurenceb_> wing dihedral, CofG position and tail fin size are things to tune
[18:33] <cuddykid> indeed - I think it will be a lot of trial and error (or improvement) :P
[18:33] <Laurenceb_> also the tail lenght changes behaviour massively
[18:33] <Laurenceb_> i kind of like playing with planes but they can be pretty annoying
[18:33] <cuddykid> I can imagine!
[18:34] <Laurenceb_> theres a lot of art to making something that glides well
[18:34] <cuddykid> I wonder how much an IMU and appropriate controls would stabilise a not so stable glider - it could well be a possibility
[18:35] <SpeedEvil> Well - fly by wire stabilises unflyable platforms
[18:35] <SpeedEvil> Withappropriate programming
[18:35] <cuddykid> yep
[18:35] <cuddykid> unless I've made this thing so bad :P
[18:37] <Laurenceb_> heh
[18:37] <Laurenceb_> yeah if it was me id use a full imu
[18:37] <Laurenceb_> its just too hard to make something thats guaranteed to enter a stable glide
[18:37] <Laurenceb_> my rogallo got flipped upside down and all sorts
[18:38] <Laurenceb_> and that was on a clamish day
[18:38] <cuddykid> yeah - hmm - I guess I could have a separate atmega328 running that's job is to soley keep the glider stable
[18:42] <Laurenceb_> supposedly you can make a flying wing that will always enter stable flight
[18:43] <Laurenceb_> using the right combination of wing sweep, dihedral and Cof G
[18:43] <SpeedEvil> hmm
[18:44] <Laurenceb_> http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1243189
[18:44] <Laurenceb_> i like that
[18:44] <cuddykid> oh nice
[18:44] <cuddykid> get building Laurenceb_ !!
[18:45] <cuddykid> there's a lot of useful info on that site
[18:46] <cuddykid> Coroplast -now that's what I've been looking for
[18:46] <SpeedEvil> cuddykid: cabp.co.uk
[18:47] <SpeedEvil> http://www.theplasticshop.co.uk/corrugated-polypropylene-sheet-2951-0.html
[18:47] <cuddykid> SpeedEvil: do they do coroplast?
[18:47] <cuddykid> brilliant
[18:47] <SpeedEvil> The first does corrugated polycarbonate, with decent shipping
[18:47] <SpeedEvil> As in 50 quid, for 4m long sheets to scotland
[18:48] <SpeedEvil> The second does corrugated polypropylene
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[18:48] <cuddykid> thanks - I popped into wickes today to see how well they would bend, but they only had huge thick pieces - I guess a nice thin piece would curve well ?
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[18:48] <SpeedEvil> What for?
[18:49] <cuddykid> planning to bend it around the nose of the glider (semi circle) like gpsboomerang :P
[18:49] <SpeedEvil> ah
[18:49] <fsphil-laptop> lol, top right pic: http://www.samcases.co.uk/img/explorer-cases/4boxes.jpg
[18:49] <cuddykid> lol fsphiil
[18:49] <SpeedEvil> I would guess a bend radius of ~50mm for the 2.5mm polypropylene
[18:49] <SpeedEvil> more than that, and it will crumple
[18:49] <SpeedEvil> 2.5mm corrugated
[18:49] <cuddykid> that would be about right I think,thanks
[18:50] <SpeedEvil> the first site has 2mm thick polycarbonate, which is heat-formable and very strong
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[19:07] <fsphil-laptop> bad science from the bbc: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-16367042
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[19:08] <fsphil-laptop> "amateur enthusiasts have in recent years sent a few payloads into orbit. ... These devices have mostly been sent up using balloons"
[19:09] <fsphil-laptop> or possibly just a typo
[19:09] <SpeedEvil> haha
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[19:11] <fsphil-laptop> a censor-free comms network would be a neat thing
[19:12] <fsphil-laptop> but probably unworkable
[19:12] <fsphil-laptop> bandwidth is going to be crap
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[19:18] <cuddykid> I guess JP aerospace could turn their floating space station/dock thing into a very low satellite type thing
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[19:24] <Laurenceb_> haha jpaerospace
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[21:22] <Laurenceb_> http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117936
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[00:00] --- Sat Dec 31 2011