highaltitude.log.20111216

[00:05] <fsphil-laptop> I think I've just made the slowest rtty decoder in the world
[00:06] <Zuph> haha
[00:07] <fsphil-laptop> it's a kind of brute force decoder, decoding the last 256 bytes for each sample
[00:08] <fsphil-laptop> managing about 1 character/second on my laptop
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[00:08] <fsphil-laptop> which is getting alarmingly hot
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[00:16] <gonzo_> even clockwork does faster than that!
[00:24] <fsphil-laptop> haha
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[02:16] <Dan-K2VOL> helo all
[02:17] <Zuph> WHY HELO DAN-K2V0L
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[02:26] <SpeedEvil> http://news.slashdot.org/story/11/12/15/2013249/us-sentinel-drone-fooled-into-landing-with-gps-spoofing
[02:26] <SpeedEvil> I guess they considered putting military mode GPS
[02:26] <SpeedEvil> on it too risky
[02:30] <BrainDamage> mmm, that makes me wonder, public key signature for gps?
[02:30] <BrainDamage> this way gps signal couldn't be easily faked anymore
[02:30] <Lunar_Lander> hi Dan-K2VOL Zuph
[02:30] <Zuph> How's your morning, Lunar_Lander ?
[02:30] <Lunar_Lander> good,thanks
[02:30] <Lunar_Lander> and yours?
[02:33] Action: hibby -> bed
[02:33] <hibby> significant day of drinking shit tons of alcohol in our departmental christmas celebration
[02:33] <SpeedEvil> M-code
[02:33] <SpeedEvil> The 'public' GPS signal is the coarse/acquisition one.
[02:34] <SpeedEvil> It was initially degraded to a few hundred meters precision.
[02:34] <SpeedEvil> The military 'm-code' and others - is a cryptographically secured signal.
[02:34] <BrainDamage> yes, but I was thinking to sign the whole packet
[02:35] <BrainDamage> this way, even civil gps cannot be easily misdirected
[02:35] <SpeedEvil> But these recievers are expensive, heavy, and have legal restrictions.
[02:35] <BrainDamage> without having to expose the secret key
[02:35] <SpeedEvil> Well - ...
[02:35] <SpeedEvil> Consider that when GPS was designed, a Z80 was a high performance processor.
[02:35] <Lunar_Lander> hibby: also physics department?
[02:36] <BrainDamage> doesn't preclude extending the protocol nowdays tough
[02:36] <SpeedEvil> Also - public key crypto hadn't been invented IIRC
[02:36] <BrainDamage> like additional bytes for signature
[02:36] <SpeedEvil> yes, it does.
[02:36] <SpeedEvil> There is no spare space in the c/a signal to add antispoofing.
[02:36] <BrainDamage> oh, right, forgot it uses SS
[02:37] <SpeedEvil> The military code cannot be recieved without an up-to-date key
[02:38] <BrainDamage> yeah, but like you said, that's a bit risky to be used in such disposable unit
[02:39] <hibby> Lunar_Lander: space concepts lab
[02:39] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[02:39] <Lunar_Lander> I was asking because the physics dept here had its christmas party also today
[02:39] <Lunar_Lander> what a coincidence
[02:39] <hibby> branch of electrical and mechanical engineering depts
[02:39] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[02:40] <SpeedEvil> Doing it right, you can have a 'reasonable' INS that will pick up massive chanfges of GPS, and get you back home with dead reckoning.
[02:40] <SpeedEvil> At least away from jamming.
[02:40] <hibby> anyhoo
[02:40] <hibby> be
[02:40] <hibby> d
[02:40] <hibby> xx
[02:40] <Lunar_Lander> good night hibby
[02:41] <Lunar_Lander> Zuph: what are you doing at the moment?
[02:41] <Zuph> Working on the white star tracker.
[02:42] <Zuph> JavaScript, hooray!
[03:01] <Lunar_Lander> yay
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[07:36] <jcoxon> morning
[07:37] <SamSilver_> good morning to you sir
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[07:49] <Elwell> nice vids of cloud1 - like the buzz lightyear :-)
[07:52] <UpuWork> morning
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[09:22] <daveake> Mornign guys. Just watching the CNSP-11 fill. "Were you aware that it was not a fast climber?" lol
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[09:54] <UpuWork> did that balloon actually have any gas in it ? :)
[09:55] <Darkside> haha
[09:55] <daveake> Not much :-). When the wind took it a bit before launch, it looked like it wasn't going anywhere
[09:55] <Darkside> it looked pretty similar to the horus 15.5 launch
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[09:56] <SamSilver_> later
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[10:02] <nosebleedkt_> yo-z
[10:07] <nosebleedkt_> natrium42: hi :)
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[10:16] <SpeedEvil> Some suppliers aren't very good at scamming.
[10:16] <SpeedEvil> http://www.cabp.co.uk/acatalog/4mm-Polycarbonate-Sheet-.html
[10:16] <SpeedEvil> Spot the bargain halfway down
[10:21] <nosebleedkt_> austerity just added to my english vocabulary
[10:22] <nosebleedkt_> and its funny cause it comes from the greek austerotita
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[10:32] <daveake> Being a sad git, I google my name and found this page that's been translated from and back into English ... http://tavasardze.lv/?p=20861
[10:32] <daveake> Apparanetly I'm "unapproachable ", but the best bit is ....
[10:32] <daveake> ... "He told El Reg: I can news that Belgian drink is most improved than that diseased Aussie things 
[10:33] <UpuWork> lol
[10:34] <Darkside> daveake: whats that?
[10:35] <daveake> My Register article got translated into Latvian or something, then Google put it back into Engrish
[10:35] <daveake> 'kin hilarious
[10:35] <Darkside> what register article?
[10:35] <Darkside> you got a register article?
[10:35] <daveake> UK #1 alt record. How soon you forget ...
[10:35] <daveake> Yes
[10:35] <Darkside> haha
[10:36] <Darkside> link me
[10:36] <daveake> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/12/07/balloon_record/
[10:36] <daveake> Don't take offence at the Uk-Aussie stuff :)
[10:36] <Darkside> hah i'm in there
[10:36] <daveake> Indeed
[10:36] <Darkside> Jessop was following the action on the Highaltitude chat forum, and was "particularly supportive, shouting 'burstburstburst!!!' as the flight approached his record," Dave notes.
[10:36] <Darkside> hah
[10:37] <daveake> I added the exclamation marks for comic effect :)
[10:37] <Darkside> :P
[10:37] <UpuWork> has any latex balloon lasted more than a day in the sun ?
[10:37] <Darkside> i thought the CNSP one was up for longer than that
[10:38] <UpuWork> other than that one
[10:55] <edmoore> UpuWork: we've done some overnight floaters that have made it to about 20hours of sunlight at a guess
[10:59] <UpuWork> none have done 3 days though :)
[10:59] <UpuWork> thx
[11:08] <Darkside> heh this what we're all forgetting
[11:08] <Darkside> edmoore: has done it all before
[11:08] <Darkside> :P
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[11:46] <edmoore> ouch!
[11:46] <Darkside> ouch?
[11:49] <staylo> ouch.
[11:51] <edmoore> i thought that was a dig :)
[11:52] <Darkside> nah
[11:52] <Darkside> its fact
[11:52] <Darkside> you did it all way before we all did
[11:53] <edmoore> oh to be a student again
[11:53] <edmoore> with free time and energy
[11:56] <daveake> yep
[11:56] <nosebleedkt_> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1set-3pcs-Ctrl-Alt-Del-Keys-Style-Cup-Coffee-Cup-Mugs-B-/300589510607?_trksid=p3286.m7&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D1%26po%3DLVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D4929974684432168609
[11:57] <daveake> Seen these? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-1-Canon-EF-24-105mm-f-4L-USM-Lens-Coffee-Cup-Mug-/170748747018?pt=UK_Collectables_Kitchenalia_RL&hash=item27c16b1d0a#ht_7046wt_1163
[11:59] <UpuWork> lol
[12:01] <nosebleedkt_> ha
[12:03] <SpeedEvil> Does it have stabilisation?
[12:05] <daveake> No, that has to be built into the body
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[13:37] <fsphil> sweet, office got a new line in. speedtest shows 89 mbit/s download speed
[13:39] Action: SpeedEvil just got his line fixed.
[13:40] <UpuWork> thats not a bad line
[13:40] <UpuWork> 100Mb leased ?
[13:40] <Darkside> goddamn UKians
[13:41] <Elwell> stab, seeing as I'm back to wet string at home
[13:41] <SpeedEvil> http://www.speedtest.net/result/1652034341.png
[13:41] <SpeedEvil> Mine now. :)
[13:41] <fsphil> 100mb fibre
[13:41] <SpeedEvil> 50% better than it was - well - for download
[13:41] <Elwell> fsphil: yeah thats what I had to home (FTTH) with upload of ~70
[13:42] <UpuWork> I have FTTC at home and its cracking
[13:42] <fsphil> Elwell, that's pretty much what we have yea
[13:43] <fsphil> sadly the office is in a bit of a valley so no way I can get wifi to here from home :)
[13:43] <BrainDamage> http://www.speedtest.net/result/1652037101.png
[13:43] <cuddykid> mines 99mb at uni with 20mb upload - however, now at home I have to suffice with 2mb :( !
[13:43] <Elwell> blog.elwell.org.uk has the details of mine
[13:44] <fsphil> Elwell, I actually did transfer data over a piece of string once :)
[13:44] <Elwell> binary with saline?
[13:45] <fsphil> sound waves
[13:45] <fsphil> the old string + cups trick
[13:46] <fsphil> 50 baud over 2 metres of nylon cord
[13:47] <BrainDamage> and there I hoped you used a piezo transducer
[13:47] <fsphil> if I had one
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[13:47] <fsphil> certainly would've worked much better
[13:47] <fsphil> might have even got 300 baud :)
[13:51] <fsphil> something like COFDM would work well I think
[13:55] Action: Elwell grabs a more recent screenshot of the monitoring plot. Suprisingly page load times aren't that much worse (double) considering the latency is much higher
[14:02] <gonzo_> needs someone to develop an IQ tx for HAB work
[14:02] <fsphil> ++
[14:02] <Darkside> heh
[14:02] <Darkside> i've got an IQ RX mostly done
[14:02] <Darkside> but not TX
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[14:03] <fsphil> am I right in thinking that an IQ TX could pretty much do any mode?
[14:03] <Darkside> it could
[14:03] <Darkside> but then you need to generate the inputs to it
[14:03] <fsphil> yea
[14:04] <Darkside> more computational power
[14:04] <Darkside> it'll end up using more power than a radiometrix module i bet
[14:04] <gonzo_> only phase reversal
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[14:04] <Darkside> if you want to do PSK theres easier ways
[14:04] Nick change: GW8RAK_ -> GW8RAK
[14:04] <gonzo_> just generating the IQ tones with the provessor
[14:04] <fsphil> I was thinking of multiple PSK signals
[14:05] <Darkside> you don't need IQ for that
[14:05] <Darkside> but it would probably be easier
[14:05] <gonzo_> advantage of IQ over the radiometrix for a simple fsk, is the shif is controled
[14:05] <Darkside> doing it in the UHF band would be a pain in the ass
[14:05] <SpeedEvil> I dunno
[14:06] <Darkside> don't most IQ modulatoes need 2xLO?
[14:06] <gonzo_> was chatting to a friend about it
[14:06] <SpeedEvil> It'd be interesting to see how accurate you could get PSK with the radiometri
[14:06] <SpeedEvil> x
[14:06] <gonzo_> with a little encouragement he may do one
[14:06] <Darkside> gonzo_: what do you mean the shift is controlled
[14:06] <gonzo_> the fsk mark space width
[14:06] <Darkside> oh
[14:06] <Darkside> yeah you wouldn't get that kind of drift
[14:07] <Darkside> you will still get LO drift though
[14:07] <gonzo_> would get the dirft, but the shift would be exact and stable
[14:07] <Darkside> mmm
[14:07] <Darkside> we haven't had problems with the shift changing through
[14:07] <Darkside> though
[14:07] <Darkside> its not hard to change it in dl-fldigi during the flight
[14:08] <gonzo_> but they are rarely the specified shift
[14:08] <gonzo_> agreed
[14:08] <Darkside> yes, teh shift changes during flight
[14:08] <gonzo_> not a big issue, but if there was a simple ref design that we could churn out
[14:08] <Darkside> i think it'd be more useful to have dl-fldigi track teh shift
[14:10] <fsphil> shift changing is not a huge issue for rtty, but other modes may not like it
[14:10] <Darkside> yeah don't do those modes with a radiometrix
[14:11] <Darkside> the problem you guys have is you're stuck with that band
[14:11] <gonzo_> once you move into IQ then other modes are easilly done
[14:11] <Darkside> *though*
[14:11] <Darkside> there is something you could try
[14:11] <Darkside> AD9851 DDS
[14:11] <Darkside> and take one of the aliases
[14:11] <gonzo_> that's the problem. The legistation
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[14:12] <Darkside> use an AD9851 and take the alias that falls in that band
[14:12] <Darkside> thats doable
[14:12] <Darkside> AD9851 + band pass filter + amplifier
[14:12] <gonzo_> simple multiplier in effect
[14:12] <Darkside> and the AD9851 *divides* down to get the output
[14:12] <Darkside> so its not going to drift as badly
[14:13] <gonzo_> reverse dds?
[14:13] <gonzo_> the drift is all down to xtal compensation or temp
[14:13] <Darkside> i've got some DDS boards in the works
[14:13] <Darkside> i'll have a look ant see if they can be used
[14:14] <SpeedEvil> Annoyingly none of the nice frac/n synth or DDS chips will actually measure a pulse.
[14:14] <SpeedEvil> So you can't have a 10ish MHz reference clock, and then calibrate it with a PPS source.
[14:14] <gonzo_> once you have the uhf sig, there are single chip IQ moduloators that could be driven
[14:14] <Darkside> SpeedEvil: theres ways to do that
[14:14] <SpeedEvil> Yeah
[14:15] <Darkside> the DDSes take a master clock
[14:15] <Darkside> you just use a PLL to lock it to a reference
[14:15] <SpeedEvil> But if it was all-in-one, it'd be wonderfully easy.
[14:15] <SpeedEvil> Oh sure.
[14:15] <gonzo_> gps lock is probably a step too far for balloons
[14:15] <SpeedEvil> But now it's lots of components, not two and a microcontroller
[14:15] <Darkside> yeah
[14:15] <Darkside> this is the issue
[14:15] <SpeedEvil> GPS lock raises interesting possibilities.
[14:15] <Darkside> all these ideas are far too complicated
[14:16] <SpeedEvil> If you can get it to the point that you can actually lock on the carrier
[14:16] <Darkside> SpeedEvil: synchronous transmission
[14:16] <gonzo_> I have an FLL on my GPSDO
[14:16] <SpeedEvil> That sort of thing.
[14:16] <Darkside> problem there is you won't get the accuracy you want out of the timepulse while its moving
[14:16] <SpeedEvil> That's the fun part.
[14:16] <Darkside> it'll be in the order of uS
[14:16] <Darkside> probably hundreds of uS
[14:16] <gonzo_> but with only a 1hz ref the loop would prob still be far too slow to compensate for the drifts that we get
[14:17] <SpeedEvil> It's more interesting if you do it groundside actually
[14:17] <SpeedEvil> With the balloon just as a constant freq beacon
[14:17] <Darkside> gonzo_: you can do faster timepulses with the ublox's
[14:17] <Darkside> but accuracy is always an issue
[14:17] <Darkside> its not goign to be accurate enough for any of the real fun stuff
[14:18] <gonzo_> I have another gpsdo that uses the oldf juptier GPS, with the 10khz o/p
[14:18] <gonzo_> if you can reduce the drift to within an audio bandwidth, then the ground segment can compensate
[14:19] <Darkside> heh
[14:19] <gonzo_> the radiometrix units drift far beond that so you are constantly retuning
[14:19] <Darkside> only the UHF ones do
[14:19] <Darkside> because the crystal drift is multiplied up
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[14:19] <gonzo_> yep
[14:19] <Darkside> the VHF ones dont drift
[14:19] <Darkside> well, not enough to be really noticable
[14:20] <gonzo_> all % of freq
[14:20] <Darkside> VHF ones arent multiplied either
[14:20] <Darkside> their crystal is the same as the output frequency
[14:21] <Darkside> don't you guys have a VHF frquency you can use?
[14:21] <Darkside> we have 151.3MHz here
[14:21] <gonzo_> May be poss to drive the modulation on those modules from an analogue o/p
[14:22] <gonzo_> which can not only modulate the data, but also compensate drift based on a temp measurement
[14:22] <gonzo_> nope, not as far as I can see
[14:22] <gonzo_> the only other allocation I can see that is useable is 868mhz
[14:23] <gonzo_> which would limit the numbers of ground stations
[14:24] <gonzo_> one option that I don't think has been tried in the UK is APRS. But only afer landing, to aid recovery
[14:24] <Darkside> ouch
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[14:32] <Darkside> ok i should sleep
[14:32] <Darkside> nn
[14:35] <gonzo_> gn
[14:59] <Laurenceb> anyone here ever ordered from sensortechnics?
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[15:23] <Laurenceb> http://uk.farnell.com/stmicroelectronics/stm32f4discovery/board-eval-stm32f4-discovery/dp/2009276?Ntt=stm32f4+discovery
[15:23] <Laurenceb> wow even lower price
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[19:02] <Zuph> Quiet today.
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[19:12] <hibby> shhhh
[19:12] <hibby> we're all singing the silent song.
[19:12] <Hiena> Close the valve! Close the valve!
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[19:48] <fsphil> So like, balloons and stuff.
[19:49] <eroomde> lol random
[19:50] <fsphil> my plan to try launching a foil balloon from the mountain was foiled by snow
[19:51] <eroomde> i get it
[19:51] <NigeyS> hey Ed!
[19:51] <fsphil> could have been worse
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[19:51] <eroomde> yo NigeyS
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[19:52] <NigeyS> Ed, have you seen these parachutes that steer themselves via a computer system ?
[19:52] <eroomde> yup
[19:52] <NigeyS> oh good, saw them on some program, weird things but bloody good!
[19:53] <eroomde> like the nasa x-38 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:X-38_Ship_-2_Landing_on_Lakebed_EC99-45080-101-EDIT1.jpg
[19:53] <hibby> parafoils with funky computer control bits?
[19:53] Action: hibby swears
[19:53] Nick change: NigeyS -> Scrooge
[19:53] <hibby> dangit
[19:53] Nick change: Scrooge -> NigeyS
[19:54] <fsphil> you planning that hibby?
[19:54] <NigeyS> hibby, thats the one, designed like an aircraft wing type thingy
[19:54] <hibby> nope, I forgot to bring my power kite back up to town last night so I could go kiteskiing in the hils this weekend
[19:54] <NigeyS> eroomde, thats a huuuuge chute!
[19:54] <eroomde> yeah
[19:54] <eroomde> immense
[19:55] <NigeyS> apparently they use them in the military alot for dropping vehicles :|
[19:55] <eroomde> yeah altair aerospace forex
[19:55] <eroomde> some clever stuff
[19:56] <NigeyS> indeed
[19:56] <eroomde> what you thinking?
[19:56] <fsphil> parachutes are a bit of a dark art
[19:57] <NigeyS> eroomde, oh nothing major, was just curious what they were all about as i'd never seen them before
[19:57] <Hiena> Eeeeee, burst test failed, except if i hook the cat under the balloon.
[19:57] <NigeyS> puzzles me why chutes have holes in them
[19:57] <NigeyS> doesnt that lower the drag? :|
[19:57] <eroomde> i was going to write a parachute 101 infact
[19:57] <NigeyS> defeating the purpose of the chute?
[19:57] <Hiena> NigeyS: stabilizator.
[19:57] <eroomde> it does lower drag yes
[19:57] <fsphil> stops them from flopping about doesn't it?
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[19:58] <eroomde> if there was no hole, you'd have high pressure inside the parachute canopy, then low pressure on the other side of the parachute canopy
[19:58] <NigeyS> ahhh right
[19:58] <eroomde> so the air would want to flow out and round the mouth to equalise the pressure
[19:58] <eroomde> this would cause the chute to flop about
[19:58] <Hiena> yup.
[19:58] <fsphil> points
[19:59] <eroomde> it would either establish a stable glide or 'cone'
[19:59] <eroomde> spinning about like a corkscrew
[19:59] <NigeyS> oh blimey, didnt think it did that :|
[19:59] <eroomde> whether it establishes a glide or it cones is a tricky one, usually depends on altitude
[19:59] <fsphil> the next chute I have has a hole in the top
[19:59] <Hiena> I have a rocket recovery chute with a lot of hole in it. It was used on a stormblaster rocket.
[19:59] <eroomde> you want about 20% geometric porosity in a parachute for best stability
[20:00] <eroomde> ideally you want it evenly distributed
[20:00] <eroomde> like a ringslot parachute
[20:00] <NigeyS> :o sooo many variables :|
[20:00] <eroomde> http://www.eng.cam.ac.uk/news/stories/2011/CU_Spaceflight/Helicopter_montage.jpg
[20:00] <eroomde> look at the bottom left
[20:00] <eroomde> that's a nice parachute
[20:01] <eroomde> the porosity is evenly distributed among the gaps
[20:01] <NigeyS> ah yeah, are there side holes in that chute or it it my eyes ?
[20:01] <eroomde> it's called a ring slot
[20:01] <eroomde> as its a series of rings of material
[20:01] <eroomde> with slots in between
[20:01] <fsphil> that's a neat idea
[20:01] <NigeyS> ohhh
[20:02] <eroomde> it's got the right porosity and a good porosity distribution
[20:02] <eroomde> it's very stable as a result
[20:02] <eroomde> it also has nice inflation characteristics
[20:02] <Hiena> Yup.
[20:02] <eroomde> as to whether you get a stable glide or coning, that often depends on altitude among other things
[20:02] <NigeyS> it's amazing stuff, stupidly complex, but amazing none the less!
[20:03] <eroomde> parachute dyankics are determined not just by the parachute mass but also the mass of air that it entrains
[20:03] <eroomde> the sort of bumble of influence of the parachute
[20:03] <eroomde> at high alt, low density, the weight of that bubble of air (herein: 'added mass') is lower than in thicker low altitude air
[20:04] <eroomde> this means the system's centre of gravity is down nearer the payload at high alt, and higher up towards the parachute at lower alt
[20:04] <NigeyS> :| mind boggling
[20:04] <eroomde> this affects the stability too, especially whether or not it establishes a stable glide (lower alts) vs coning about (high alts)
[20:04] <Hiena> Which change the stability, on the descent.
[20:05] <eroomde> the added mass effect is also the reason why parafoils at high altitude are a bit of a nogo
[20:05] <eroomde> or at least vastly harder
[20:05] <Hiena> Yeah, short strings more oscillation.
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[20:05] <eroomde> because the CoG of the descender will be right down near the vehicle, so the effect of disturbances will be much more wild on the orientation of the system, and in most sims you end up stalling the parafoil and wrapping yourself up in it
[20:06] <NigeyS> oh that's not good
[20:06] <eroomde> but if the CoG is up towards the parafoil in the thicker air, the vehicle, thanks to gravity, will try and restore its position to a stable one
[20:06] <eroomde> like a pendulum
[20:07] <eroomde> it's worth investigating more certainly, i wouldn't want to say it's not possible
[20:07] <eroomde> but it's vastly harder as a control problem than at lower alts
[20:07] <SamSilver_> what is this coning yhou speak of?
[20:07] <NigeyS> so is there a limit for the type of parachute then, thats pretty much fixed, say after xxxxft you wouldnt use a parafoil ?
[20:07] <Hiena> Not to mention, the CG location is critical for the parafoil longitudional stability.
[20:08] <eroomde> indeed
[20:08] <Zuph> Neat.
[20:08] <eroomde> I don;t think there's a hard limit, it depends on loads of thingslike masses and dimensions
[20:08] <eroomde> but for most practical designs it'd be very difficult indeed
[20:08] <NigeyS> hmm interesting
[20:09] <eroomde> so, 'added mass' is super important when doing your sums
[20:09] <eroomde> there are a few good papers on this, i'll try and site them when i get round to that parachute 101
[20:09] <eroomde> cite*
[20:09] <NigeyS> that has to be a real bitch to calculate, it's pretty much guess work ?
[20:09] <Hiena> The parafoil basically a flying wing, where the CG's moment counteract of the pressure's moment.
[20:09] <eroomde> there are some decent rules of thumb for practical sizes and mass ranges
[20:10] <NigeyS> ohh
[20:10] <eroomde> models that are good enough
[20:10] <eroomde> but to sim a parafoil would be quite tricky
[20:10] <eroomde> so, interesting study example i saw today
[20:10] <eroomde> http://fruitychutes.com/
[20:10] <eroomde> they claim a Cd of 2.2
[20:10] <eroomde> this is bollocks
[20:11] <Hiena> Ehehehe...
[20:11] <NigeyS> looks like a bloody donut :|
[20:11] <eroomde> if anyone is giving you Cd numbers >1, they are probably off their rocket
[20:11] <eroomde> but it's for an interesting reason
[20:11] <eroomde> it's because parachutes like that glide like bandits
[20:12] <eroomde> so their vertical rate of descent will be much slower than their air speed, as they might be gliding at about 1 in 2
[20:12] <Laurenceb_> couldnt you account for the lift as well
[20:12] <Laurenceb_> oh got you
[20:12] <Laurenceb_> thats what you're explaining
[20:12] <eroomde> and the manufacturers will use vertical rate of descent, rather than airspeed, to (thus incorrectly) calculate Cd
[20:12] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[20:13] <eroomde> as a rule, stability decreases as Cd goes up. most parachuts of a decent compromise seem to have a Cd of about 0.6
[20:13] <eroomde> so if you see Cd of 2.2, worry a bit, but perhaps you might not care if you only care about vertical landing speed
[20:14] <eroomde> but it could properly screw your flight prediction as the predictor assumes the parachutes aren't gliding
[20:14] <SamSilver_> searched for coning and found this > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Cocking
[20:15] <eroomde> eek
[20:15] <NigeyS> certainly a err.. unique design
[20:16] <eroomde> moral. for hab, use a spill hole
[20:17] <NigeyS> i have a x-form to use for ats-1
[20:17] <eroomde> if you want more specific requirements of oscillation, descent speeds, etc, come shout. it might be possible to mod an existing chute to do what you want
[20:17] <eroomde> x-forms can be very stable
[20:17] <eroomde> you want a strip length to width of 3.5-4 for good stability
[20:17] <eroomde> 3:1 is def unstable
[20:17] <NigeyS> hope so, i was just wondering if there was anything we could do to stop all the tangling we see so often
[20:19] <eroomde> i've not seen much tangling?
[20:19] <eroomde> there are ways you can mitigate chutes getting tangled
[20:19] <eroomde> you can use webbing inbetween the lines
[20:19] <eroomde> that stop them inverting
[20:19] <eroomde> http://www.eng.cam.ac.uk/news/stories/2011/CU_Spaceflight/Helicopter_montage.jpg
[20:20] <eroomde> bottom right
[20:20] <eroomde> see the pilot chute at the very top
[20:20] <eroomde> that was webbing in between the lines
[20:20] <eroomde> that's cos that parachute is designed to be deployed messily and still inflate and orient the vehicle to deploy its main aprachute
[20:20] <eroomde> v reliable
[20:20] <Dan-K2VOL> nice
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[20:21] <NigeyS> yep i see
[20:21] <eroomde> no spill hole in that pilot chute
[20:22] <eroomde> doesn't need the stability, it just needs to inflate so it can deploy the main
[20:22] <NigeyS> yup, remember that from the talk, what's that metal disc looking thing in the 2nd image ?
[20:23] <eroomde> that's the lid
[20:23] <eroomde> that was on the rear of the drop vehicle
[20:23] <eroomde> holding the spring pilot in
[20:23] <NigeyS> ahhh yes
[20:23] <eroomde> it was ejected with a pyrotechnic, letting the spring pilot spring out into the airflow, inflate, and pull the main out
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[20:29] <RocketBoy> hey daveake:
[20:30] <RocketBoy> just checking over some old H1600 data (following the CNSP stuff)
[20:30] <daveake> Hey Steve
[20:30] <RocketBoy> BUZZ1 and 2 were really quite different altitude wise?
[20:30] <daveake> Yep!
[20:30] <RocketBoy> any suggestions?
[20:31] <RocketBoy> as to why
[20:31] <RocketBoy> very similar otherwise
[20:31] <daveake> Not really .... Buzz 1 launch was very straightforward, pretty sure the balloon didn't get damaged
[20:32] <daveake> I was expecting 39km at least from that so I was surprised when it popped so early
[20:32] <RocketBoy> so no rough launch
[20:32] <daveake> Nope, very easy.
[20:32] <RocketBoy> didn't it touch a tree on launch IIRC?
[20:33] <daveake> Nope. Cloud 2 may have
[20:33] <RocketBoy> ah - ok
[20:33] <RocketBoy> ok - just variability then
[20:33] <daveake> Buzz 2 though the fill was quite difficult. We had quiet periods then very strong gusts for a couple of minutes at a time
[20:34] <NigeyS> i wonder if this has anything to do with it..........
[20:34] <daveake> It was quite difficult to hold it away from the ground and anything sharp. So I thought it would pop below Buzz1's height
[20:34] <NigeyS> Since 2005, we have started to research and develop 1600g meteorological balloon specialized for Global Climate Observing System (GCOS). Through several years’ efforts, we have made great achievements on this project. Until now, according to results received from GCOS stations (our 1600g sounding balloon have been used in 7 GCOS stations and 1 non-GCOS station in China)
[20:34] <daveake> .... I was wondering if the "pre-stretching" in the gusts, when it looked like a sail, actually helped
[20:35] <RocketBoy> humm
[20:35] <NigeyS> doesnt that sound like theyre purposely developing the 1600's NOT to burst ?
[20:35] <daveake> Buzz1's balloon was quite patchy in colour, so I'm thinking manufacturing differences
[20:35] <RocketBoy> no idea
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[20:36] <NigeyS> the percentage of 1600g balloon with average bursting altitude reaching to 38000m accounts for 50%, 36000m is above 80% and 30000m is 100%
[20:36] <RocketBoy> I wondered if the 1600 was a bit different - the burst diameter on the smaller hwoyee sizes is comparable with totex
[20:37] <RocketBoy> but the 1600 is a fair bit more - comparable with the totex 2000
[20:37] <NigeyS> well, that certainly sounds like theyre doing something "different" with the 1600's specifically
[20:37] <jiffe98> higher defect control?
[20:37] <RocketBoy> they are actually packaged differently too
[20:38] <NigeyS> pass, best idea would be to get a sample of the latex analysed, and compare it to the totex
[20:38] <RocketBoy> possibly - they seem to take more care
[20:39] <RocketBoy> however having said that - the actual burst diameters (i was talking about the published diameters above) seem generally well above totex
[20:40] <daveake> I wondered if the larger neck helped. There's more stress through that area I assume because of the payload weight
[20:40] <RocketBoy> I'm sure the Hwoyee are more UV resistant - the totex ones discolour quite easilly - not the hwoyee
[20:42] <RocketBoy> possibly - although I have seen both types burst well away from the neck
[20:42] <NigeyS> hmm seems there's an indian company who make balloons to
[20:42] <RocketBoy> pawn
[20:42] <NigeyS> PAWAN yup
[20:43] <NigeyS> oh, odd, 1600's are special order with them
[20:43] <RocketBoy> yeah - been meaning to try them
[20:43] <NigeyS> 1200gm, shipped to uk, $99
[20:45] <RocketBoy> expect to add about at least £30 in VAT import duty and courier charges
[20:45] <NigeyS> yup, think ill pass hehe
[20:46] <RocketBoy> well it would be worth a try - you never know
[20:47] <NigeyS> might try 1 for 1 of the swift flights
[20:47] <RocketBoy> It wasn't until darkside flew a few did we try the Hwoyees
[20:47] <daveake> Might end up with another rash of record breakers :)
[20:48] <RocketBoy> stranger things have happened
[20:50] <NigeyS> there's another company to, but their web site seems dead..
[20:50] <NigeyS> jinyang
[20:52] <RocketBoy> humm - I find it a nigthmare stocking just two brands in most of the sizes
[20:52] <daveake> :)
[20:52] <daveake> Steve, when will you be getting the 1600g NeverBursts and the 48" spherachutes back in stock?
[20:54] <RocketBoy> the 1600s are on their way - due in early Jan - the speheachtes should arrive any day now - they were shipped over a week ago.
[20:55] <daveake> Cool, I'll get an order in soon
[20:55] <RocketBoy> I won't be getting any 200g hwoyees for some time - they are out of production
[20:55] <RocketBoy> 2000
[20:55] <daveake> I was wondering if the 2000g would go higher, but I don't think there's enough data on them.
[20:55] <RocketBoy> I'm also getting 1200g Hwoyees whith the Jan shippment
[20:56] <daveake> Cool. Might get one 1600 and one 1200. Have a 1000g only at the mo
[20:56] <RocketBoy> the 2000 don't seem to outperform the 1600s IMO -
[20:56] <daveake> No, I don't think so either
[20:57] Action: RocketBoy shudders at the thought of chasing XABEN 13 (H2000) across the country in the summer
[20:58] Action: RocketBoy should have known with that number
[20:58] <daveake> lol
[20:59] <RocketBoy> got it back though (unbroken record)
[20:59] <daveake> Buzz returned home this week. Royal Fail left it with a neighbour and neither told me ....
[21:01] <RocketBoy> bugg*rs
[21:01] <RocketBoy> I notice that their pricing site has been down for about 2 weeks
[21:01] <daveake> Yeah I heard
[21:02] <RocketBoy> I'm having to play guess the shipping price for my international orders
[21:02] <daveake> :(
[21:03] <daveake> btw I found a site which had my Register article translated into Latvian, and helpfully back into English by Google. Apparently I described Aussie beer as "diseased" lol
[21:05] <RocketBoy> well it is :-)
[21:05] <daveake> Indeed :D
[21:06] <daveake> I can news that Belgian drink is most improved than that diseased Aussie things" lol
[21:11] <RocketBoy> or similar
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[22:26] <NigeyS> ..
[22:26] <fsphil-laptop> +++ATD
[22:26] <NigeyS> meh! :p
[22:27] <Laurenceb_> http://uk.farnell.com/ledengin/lz1-00r300/led-5w-far-red/dp/1901491
[22:27] <Laurenceb_> hardcore
[22:27] <NigeyS> AT&F1
[22:27] <Laurenceb_> AT+CMGS
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[22:27] <NigeyS> 5W led.. thats gonna be slightly bright!
[22:27] <Laurenceb_> far red too, could have some fun
[22:27] <NigeyS> oh yes, muchas fun!
[22:28] <Laurenceb_> i want to make an optic fibre cutter
[22:28] <Laurenceb_> like a photonic gas torch
[22:28] <NigeyS> nothing to complicated then? :p
[22:30] <NigeyS> LZ4-00R300 - LED 10W FAR RED
[22:30] <NigeyS> they do a 10w...lol !
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[22:32] <fsphil-laptop> oooh
[22:32] <fsphil-laptop> how far red?
[22:32] <fsphil-laptop> visible?
[22:33] <NigeyS> 725nm to 745nm
[22:33] <fsphil-laptop> that might be fun for my optical beacon
[22:33] <NigeyS> oo
[22:34] <fsphil-laptop> a 10w blast every few minutes, doing rtty
[22:34] <NigeyS> now that would be fun
[22:34] <fsphil-laptop> on a night time floater
[22:34] <fsphil-laptop> people could track it visually :)
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[22:59] <Laurenceb_> http://uk.farnell.com/vishay/vlsl-refl01/led-module-reflector/dp/1870797
[23:00] Action: Laurenceb_ gets his cannabis farm up and running
[23:00] <natrium42> :O
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[23:14] <jcoxon> evening all
[23:14] <natrium42> hi jcoxon
[23:14] <fsphil-laptop> hullo
[23:15] <jcoxon> hey guys
[23:15] <jcoxon> my pico payload just lasted 14hrs off 2AAAs
[23:15] <jcoxon> quite pleased by that
[23:15] <jcoxon> with no powersaving implemented
[23:15] <natrium42> sweet
[23:16] <natrium42> jcoxon: what do you think of http://www.ti.com/product/cc1120
[23:16] <natrium42> ?
[23:16] <Laurenceb_> jocoxon: do you have those sensortechnics solenoid valves you got ages ago?
[23:16] <natrium42> might be fun to make a tiny tracked with it
[23:16] <Laurenceb_> *jcoxon
[23:16] <natrium42> *tracker
[23:17] <jcoxon> Laurenceb_, yeah
[23:17] <jcoxon> natrium42, it would certainly work
[23:17] <jcoxon> my only issue is smd soldering
[23:17] <Laurenceb_> any chance you could let me have one?
[23:17] <jcoxon> i was actually going to use them :-)
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[23:17] <jcoxon> i've had an idea for them
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[23:18] <Laurenceb_> all of them? how many have you got?
[23:18] <Raul_> Hi
[23:18] <jcoxon> 2
[23:18] <Laurenceb_> im after one for a project but its 6week lead time
[23:18] <jcoxon> oh
[23:18] <jcoxon> okay
[23:18] <jcoxon> i'll send you one
[23:18] <jcoxon> email me your address
[23:18] <Laurenceb_> is it 3 or 5v?
[23:18] <jcoxon> 3
[23:19] <Laurenceb_> i can send you it back when i get mine - its just for develoiping
[23:19] <Laurenceb_> cool
[23:19] <Laurenceb_> the small ones right?
[23:19] <Raul_> Who here has launched a balloon from Europe?
[23:19] <jcoxon> yeah
[23:19] <jcoxon> tiny tiny
[23:20] <Laurenceb_> cool, thanks ill email you my address
[23:20] <Laurenceb_> ill send you it back when mine arrive
[23:24] <NigeyS> Raul_, which part?
[23:25] <Raul_> Eastern Europe
[23:25] <Raul_> Hungary, Romania
[23:25] <NigeyS> err.. theres been a couple, cant remember who though
[23:25] <Raul_> but I am also intrested in the central and western countries
[23:25] <jcoxon> Raul_, definitely some launches in poland
[23:25] <Raul_> how long dose it take in europe on average to get a flight clearance?
[23:26] <NigeyS> well, in the U.K its 4 -6 weeks
[23:26] <NigeyS> but i guess varies from country to country
[23:26] <Raul_> god, that's a lot
[23:26] <fsphil-laptop> yep
[23:26] <fsphil-laptop> sometimes even longer than that
[23:27] <Raul_> I was thinking more like the end of the month, I sent an email to both hungarian and romanian ATC a week ago
[23:27] <Raul_> is there a balloon size under which this is unregulated?
[23:28] <Laurenceb_> jcoxon: i might have some spare valves - im ordering 4
[23:28] <Laurenceb_> but 6 weeks lead time - ordered today
[23:28] <jcoxon> Raul_, in hte UK the whole thing has to be shorter then 2m
[23:28] <jcoxon> which isn't possible for high balloons as they expand significantly
[23:28] <Raul_> the whole payload- parachute-balloon assembly?
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[23:29] <jcoxon> yes
[23:30] <Raul_> :( with a 1500g balloon that is impossible to respect
[23:30] <jcoxon> exactly
[23:30] <Raul_> what are the legal consequences if you launch without one?
[23:30] <jcoxon> i don't know
[23:31] <NigeyS> not an area you'd wish to explore
[23:31] <jcoxon> but it might risk it in future for people that do follow the rules
[23:31] <Raul_> true, I will be legal that is for sure
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[23:32] <jcoxon> ping Dan-K2VOL
[23:32] <Raul_> dose anyone know a user named hiena?
[23:33] <Raul_> I am again late...dose anyone have contact details for him?
[23:34] <NigeyS> Raul_, im guessing this would be you're starting point
[23:34] <NigeyS> http://old.nkh.gov.hu/en/aviation/content/view/4/25/
[23:35] <Raul_> Thank you!
[23:35] <NigeyS> :)
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[23:38] <fsphil-laptop> is there any software that can take our hab images and make a ground map?
[23:40] <Zuph> 'evening.
[23:41] <fsphil-laptop> hullo Zuph
[00:00] --- Sat Dec 17 2011