highaltitude.log.20111028

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[00:25] <hibby> aye
[00:32] <Zuph> hibby: How were the pub?
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[00:44] <hibby> le meh
[00:45] <hibby> loads of the really annoying shitty insignificant politics between people, y'know?
[00:45] <hibby> less of the drinking and taser tag that I look for in pub attendance
[00:51] <Darkside> anyone know what would happen to a lipo battery in an un-pressirised luggage cabin?
[01:03] <k5egg> hibby: too many bros, not enough hos?
[01:04] <k5egg> thats usually when the drama breaks out
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[04:45] <griffonbot> Received email: David Akerman "Re: [UKHAS] Apex Alpha Write Up"
[04:59] <griffonbot> Received email: Robert Darlington "Re: [UKHAS] Apex Alpha Write Up"
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[06:43] <nosebleedKT> Good morning ALL
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[07:22] <mattltm> Morning all :)
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[07:25] <number10> morning
[07:30] <mattltm> Hi number10
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[07:40] <nosebleedKT> how is the name of the radio receiver you all use in EU ?
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[07:51] <earthshine> Morning
[07:54] <Upu> moring
[07:54] <Upu> morning even
[07:59] <costyn> nosebleedKT: you mean the Yaesu FT-817?
[07:59] <nosebleedKT> no, from radiometrix
[07:59] <costyn> and hello also :)
[07:59] <costyn> nosebleedKT: NTX2
[07:59] <nosebleedKT> ok, hello :)
[08:00] <costyn> nosebleedKT: NTX2 is a transmitter, not a receiver. :)
[08:00] <nosebleedKT> i need the receiver
[08:00] <costyn> oh
[08:00] <costyn> nosebleedKT: http://www.radiometrix.com/content/nrx2
[08:00] <costyn> ?
[08:01] <nosebleedKT> mhh
[08:01] <nosebleedKT> im not sure
[08:01] <Upu> Transmitter is generally the NTX2
[08:01] <costyn> nosebleedKT: then I don't know sorry :)
[08:01] <nosebleedKT> its ok konstantine :P
[08:01] <Upu> Receiver is whatever people have FT-817, 897 ICOM's etc
[08:02] <costyn> nosebleedKT: :) afaik people don't use the radiometrix units to receive data from the balloons
[08:02] <nosebleedKT> Im the only one that does have a radiometrix NRX1 receiver then ?
[08:02] <nosebleedKT> :PP
[08:02] <Elwell> 75 mins for the next nasa launch
[08:03] <costyn> Elwell: what kind of launch?
[08:03] <eroomde> what's goin up Elwell ?
[08:04] <eroomde> oh hi nytsoc
[08:04] <Elwell> cubesats and not sure what else is on it
[08:04] <nosebleedKT> optimus prime
[08:04] <nosebleedKT> :P
[08:04] <Elwell> Launch of NPOESS Preparatory Project
[08:04] <costyn> eroomde: :) hehe ... I've actually used that... Nightsock :)
[08:05] <eroomde> not sure i want to know what a nightsock is
[08:05] <Elwell> on a delta-2
[08:06] <costyn> eroomde: heheh... i'm not sure it's anything
[08:06] <costyn> eroomde: I meant I used it as a handle
[08:06] <costyn> nick/alias whatever :)
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[08:09] <costyn> http://www.ulalaunch.com/site/default.shtml
[08:09] <costyn> ah wait.. here's the live stream: http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/index.html
[08:10] <costyn> 68 minutes to go
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[08:21] <griffonbot> Received email: Nick Leaton "[UKHAS] Airship"
[08:35] <griffonbot> Received email: "Re: [UKHAS] uBlox-6"
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[08:48] <griffonbot> Received email: John Graham-Cumming "Re: [UKHAS] uBlox-6"
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[09:14] <griffonbot> Received email: Philip Heron "Re: [UKHAS] uBlox-6"
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[09:34] <griffonbot> Received email: Steve Randall "Re: [UKHAS] uBlox-6"
[09:47] <Elwell> 40 secs
[09:49] <Elwell> flip. mach1 in 33 secs
[09:51] <Elwell> <3 mins to mach 10.
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[10:18] <griffonbot> Received email: "Re: [UKHAS] uBlox-6"
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[10:22] <WillDuckworth> hey UpuWork - got the transmitter - thanks
[10:24] <UpuWork> great
[10:24] <UpuWork> only just turned up ?
[10:34] <WillDuckworth> i've been on hols all week - so not 100% sure when
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[10:35] <WillDuckworth> that Apex launch looked epic
[10:36] <fsphil> that's one word to describe it :)
[10:36] <WillDuckworth> hey fsphil - have you lost your long distance crown?
[10:37] <fsphil> about 6 or 7 people beat it I think :D
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[10:38] <WillDuckworth> until next time....
[10:39] <fsphil> I'll certainly keep trying ;)
[10:39] <nosebleedKT> fsphil: what about the ssdv on the linksprite cam ?
[10:40] <fsphil> haven't looked at that yet
[10:40] <fsphil> not sure it's going to be all that easy
[10:41] <mattltm> nosebleedKT: You have an NRX2 that you want to use to recive HAB's?
[10:41] <nosebleedKT> fsphil: ok
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[10:42] <nosebleedKT> mattltm: yes, im already using it.
[10:42] <nosebleedKT> nrx1 btw
[10:42] <mattltm> And you have used it sucsessfully?
[10:42] <fsphil> not sure you'll get much range out of that?
[10:42] <jonsowman> their sensitivity is pretty useless
[10:42] <jonsowman> relatively
[10:42] <nosebleedKT> i usually receive signals from cities far away
[10:43] <mattltm> nosebleedKT: Have you used it to track a HAB?
[10:43] <nosebleedKT> its on 144.8mhz
[10:43] <mattltm> ohh, its for APRS
[10:43] <nosebleedKT> yes, not for yours
[10:43] <fsphil> ah, that's not an nrx2
[10:43] <nosebleedKT> its NRX1 at 144.8
[10:44] <fsphil> yea. I got one of those for testing recently
[10:44] <mattltm> Yes, I have one on 144.8 too :)
[10:44] <nosebleedKT> and it works pretty good
[10:44] <mattltm> And a HX1 on 144.8.
[10:44] <nosebleedKT> i use it in conjuction with radioshield from argentdata
[10:45] <mattltm> The opentracker+ ?
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[10:45] <nosebleedKT> nop
[10:45] <nosebleedKT> arduino+radioshield+NRX1
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[10:46] <mattltm> Ahh, I know the one.
[10:46] <mattltm> http://wiki.argentdata.com/index.php?title=Radio_Shield
[10:46] <nosebleedKT> y
[10:46] <mattltm> very nice.
[10:46] <griffonbot> Received email: Solar Balloonman "[UKHAS] James May, Man Lab."
[10:47] <mattltm> I was goingt to mention that using a NRX for reciving HAB flights wont work very well.
[10:47] <nosebleedKT> but recently i found a new project called BertOS that does the receiving in much better way than radioshield which results in more decoded aprs
[10:47] <nosebleedKT> and provides the source code for avrs
[10:48] <mattltm> I have tried using a NRX to recive HAB's on 434.075 and its no go :(
[10:48] <mattltm> Yes, BertOS looks good.
[10:48] <nosebleedKT> mattltm: ive never used NRX1 to catch a hab cause it receives only on 144.8 and nobody does it in habing
[10:48] <mattltm> It also does TX IIRC?
[10:48] <fsphil> I tried FM on the 817 and there was no trace of the signal at all :)
[10:48] <fsphil> nobody in the UK nosebleedKT, APRS is used in most other countries
[10:48] <mattltm> fsphil: its more the issue of freq drift.
[10:49] <mattltm> nosebleedKT: Thats because 144.800 is not allowed for airbourne use in the UK
[10:49] <nosebleedKT> but APRS is a network and there are repeaters and other stuff that makes easier to track something
[10:49] <nosebleedKT> mattltm: i know.
[10:49] <fsphil> we'd love to use it :)
[10:49] <nosebleedKT> im sure.
[10:49] <fsphil> though tbh, the way we do it is far more flexible and power efficient
[10:49] <mattltm> Yes, I agree to would be good but I can't see it hapening. :(
[10:49] <nosebleedKT> aprs.fi is asewome
[10:50] <fsphil> I prefer spacenear.us :)
[10:50] <nosebleedKT> haha
[10:50] <mattltm> Maybe we need to encourage a licence free alternative and try and build a european network?
[10:50] <nosebleedKT> aprs.fi shows my telemetry even if a guy from UK receives it :)
[10:50] <fsphil> aprs on 869mhz?
[10:50] <mattltm> I think the main problem with HAB is the freq drift.
[10:50] <jonsowman> aprs is just a protocol
[10:51] <jonsowman> we can use it on a different frequency
[10:51] <nosebleedKT> yes
[10:51] <fsphil> we get 500mw to play with on 869mhz, and you wouldn't transmit more than the duty limit
[10:51] <SpeedEvil> We can't legally use APRS airborne in the UK on the normal frequency.
[10:51] <NigeyS> fsphil, what freq we using for swift ?
[10:51] <mattltm> Most APRS gateways are set on 144.800 and left there. No user interaction.
[10:51] <jonsowman> there was a plan with apex a while ago for receiving vehicles to hear data from the balloon on LPD433 and retransmit it over the APRS network to other stations
[10:51] <fsphil> NigeyS, either the 434mhz ones
[10:52] <nosebleedKT> going to eat and watch news. today we had military parade but it was cancelled for the first time and people think its the new german rules :P
[10:52] <NigeyS> fsphil, for aprs?
[10:52] <jonsowman> fsphil: what's duty on 868?
[10:52] <fsphil> 10% iirc
[10:52] <mattltm> 10%?
[10:52] <mattltm> lol
[10:52] <jonsowman> cool
[10:52] <NigeyS> 10% !
[10:53] <NigeyS> fk sake im always late :(
[10:53] <fsphil> NigeyS, nah standard rtty on the ntx2
[10:53] Action: NigeyS jumps the cliff
[10:53] <NigeyS> fsphil, ok, ill rephrase the Q, what freq are we using for aprs on swift? :D
[10:53] <fsphil> 10% is enough for a few aprs packets each minute
[10:53] <fsphil> 144.8
[10:53] <jonsowman> 144.8 surely
[10:53] <mattltm> 144.800 i guess NigeyS
[10:53] <NigeyS> ta :)
[10:53] <fsphil> anything else is silly :)
[10:53] <jonsowman> fsphil: yeah that's what i was thinking
[10:54] <jonsowman> free space path loss is x4 against 434
[10:54] <mattltm> How are we going to get around the no UK airbourne issue? Geo fence?
[10:54] <fsphil> yep
[10:54] <NigeyS> yup
[10:54] <mattltm> Yay!
[10:54] <fsphil> or, activate it on the ground
[10:54] <NigeyS> oh feck it .. ill sit in silence
[10:54] <fsphil> if it lands in the UK
[10:55] <NigeyS> if it lands in the u.k whoever filled the balloon will find themselves on the next 1 !
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[10:55] <mattltm> lol.
[10:55] <NigeyS> without a blanket!
[10:55] <fsphil> wonder what the rules are regarding operating over international waters
[10:56] <NigeyS> gw8rak was going to check out the legality of the aprs system for swift iirc
[10:56] <NigeyS> we may have to avoid certain countries to, that'll be fun
[10:56] <fsphil> more fences :)
[10:57] <NigeyS> i mean physically
[10:57] <NigeyS> like russia..
[10:57] <NigeyS> they no hab friendly
[10:57] <jonsowman> so the idea behind the aprs thing is to keep tracking it over europe etc?
[10:57] <NigeyS> yups
[10:58] <NigeyS> and it should work well as a beacon when it hits ground to
[10:58] <jonsowman> so when are you allowed to activate it?
[10:58] <NigeyS> after leaving u.k airspace
[10:58] <jonsowman> okay
[10:58] <jonsowman> how far out does that extend?
[10:58] <mattltm> Yust a thought but how much will a HX1 on 144.800 drift off freq?
[10:58] <NigeyS> i think its about 50 miles? something like that ?
[10:58] <jonsowman> mattltm: are they xtal multiplied?
[10:59] <mattltm> Im not sure.
[10:59] <jonsowman> they'll certainly drift less than the 434 ones
[10:59] <mattltm> Athough one has been used sucsessfully in the past.
[10:59] <jonsowman> as the drift is multiplied x5 from the 86 Mhz xtal
[11:00] <mattltm> I was just thinking that if we are relying on european stations to track then it will need to be band on 144.800.
[11:00] <jonsowman> if you can get an APRS module with a 144.8mhz xtal (not sure if possible) then it will drift very little
[11:00] <jonsowman> NigeyS: how are you generating the AFSK stuff?
[11:00] <mattltm> Would a KISS solution be better? Like try and contact clubs and get some more EU listners?
[11:01] <jonsowman> mattltm: it can't hurt
[11:01] <jonsowman> if people are at their receivers then they can retune
[11:01] <NigeyS> jonsowman, phils area, i have no clue on the aprs stuff other than what module it needs
[11:01] <jonsowman> NigeyS: ah ok
[11:01] <jonsowman> fsphil: ^ ?
[11:01] <NigeyS> i know Darkside has been fiddling with it to, and is working on compressed packets
[11:01] <jonsowman> APRS includes comment compression stuff iirc
[11:02] <fsphil> sorry, was afk :)
[11:02] <jonsowman> if you're over europe and the packets make their way back to the UK I bet you'll get hams complaining
[11:02] <jonsowman> especially at 1 packet/min
[11:03] <fsphil> the packets are very brief
[11:03] <jonsowman> some people are very fussy
[11:03] <jonsowman> we had several complaints when we were testing Apex I using APRS on the ground
[11:03] <jonsowman> i'm not saying don't do it
[11:03] <jonsowman> just saying be prepared
[11:04] <fsphil> several from different people? or just one?
[11:04] <jonsowman> different people
[11:04] <fsphil> hmm
[11:04] <jonsowman> the APRS network is a busy one and by nature the packets get everywhere
[11:04] <NigeyS> can we turn down to power to reduce the range ?
[11:04] <NigeyS> the*
[11:05] <fsphil> I'd have thought 1 per minute would leave plenty of space
[11:05] <jonsowman> NigeyS: this is the thing, with APRS, it doesn't matter
[11:05] <fsphil> as long as the packets are not setup to repeat
[11:05] <NigeyS> jonsowman, i see
[11:05] <jonsowman> if you choose your WIDE path correctly you should be ok
[11:05] <fsphil> yea
[11:05] <jonsowman> however some receivers don't implement it
[11:05] <fsphil> it would be easy to cause a packet storm
[11:05] <jonsowman> or ignore it
[11:05] <jonsowman> inherent problem with having input frequency the same as output for digipeaters
[11:06] <fsphil> all we'd need from >10km is to hit the igates
[11:06] <jonsowman> yep
[11:06] <NigeyS> http://www.centreforaviation.com/images/stories/2008/december/17/sesar2.png
[11:06] <NigeyS> seems to be the only map of airspace i can find
[11:06] <jonsowman> if i just fire up a TNC and listen on 144.8 for a bit, i get packets from spain, italy & portugal
[11:06] <jonsowman> aprs packets get a long, long way
[11:07] <jonsowman> which is a double edge sword :)
[11:07] <fsphil> I don't get any packets lol
[11:07] <fsphil> well, a couple per day at most
[11:07] <jonsowman> fsphil: interesting
[11:07] <NigeyS> phils hf is slightly deaf :(
[11:07] <jonsowman> at home i get about 10 a minute
[11:07] <jonsowman> home being surry
[11:07] <jonsowman> *surrey
[11:07] <fsphil> I live in an aprs black spot
[11:07] <jonsowman> mostly from the thames repeater group APRS digipeater
[11:08] <jonsowman> fsphil: http://gallery.apexhab.org/index.php/Apex-I/Building/TNC-X/TNC-X_016
[11:09] <Matt_soton> i remember tracking a truck from france to kent with that system
[11:09] <jonsowman> indeed
[11:09] <NigeyS> lol
[11:09] <Matt_soton> apex I was a while ago...
[11:10] <jonsowman> anyway the network is there to be used so definitely use it, just do your best to set the WIDE path right, and be prepared for a few complaints, probably
[11:10] <jonsowman> Matt_soton: 2007 :|
[11:10] <Matt_soton> 2008
[11:10] <jonsowman> well, we built it between sep 07 and apr 08
[11:10] <Matt_soton> no launch was 09
[11:11] <jonsowman> oh was it
[11:11] <Matt_soton> yea U6
[11:11] <jonsowman> oh indeed
[11:11] <jonsowman> that's not quite as bad then
[11:11] <jonsowman> but stiil
[11:11] <jonsowman> *still
[11:11] <jonsowman> seems like ages
[11:11] <Matt_soton> indeed
[11:11] <Matt_soton> dont suppose u know of any nice and easy PLLs / VCOs
[11:12] <Matt_soton> preferably one that gives a sine output of the VCO
[11:12] <jonsowman> not off the top of my head, no
[11:12] <jonsowman> you could make one :)
[11:12] <Matt_soton> im still interested to see whether the micrel part's VCO is sine output
[11:12] <jonsowman> use an LCR tank with a negative impedance thing
[11:12] <jonsowman> whack a varactor on it, sorted
[11:13] <jonsowman> (some steps omitted)
[11:13] <Matt_soton> it would be nice for a ingerated thing, otherwise i have a descrete /4, VCO, phase comp and XL oscillator + filter
[11:14] <jonsowman> :)
[11:14] <jonsowman> trip computer arrived for the car
[11:14] <Matt_soton> :)
[11:14] <Matt_soton> fitted yet?
[11:14] <jonsowman> no
[11:14] <Matt_soton> :P
[11:14] <jonsowman> i've got to figure out how to get a wire from the ECU through the bulkhead
[11:14] <Matt_soton> magnetic induction
[11:15] <jonsowman> and work out which wires from the fuel gauge and speedo senders
[11:15] <jonsowman> might have to wait till xmas
[11:18] <Matt_soton> yea
[11:20] <Matt_soton> also a integerated DDS might be simpler then that pll stuff
[11:20] <jonsowman> that'd also work
[11:20] <jonsowman> PLL is cooler :)
[11:20] <jonsowman> is this for the HF txer?
[11:20] <Matt_soton> if there was a one IC solution
[11:20] <Matt_soton> yea
[11:21] <jonsowman> nice
[11:21] <Matt_soton> also a DDS can be programmed to anythnig
[11:21] <Matt_soton> but i wont get an expesnive one that can do 434 :P
[11:21] <jonsowman> how expensive are we talking?
[11:22] <Matt_soton> $44
[11:22] <Matt_soton> for a 1GSPS
[11:22] <jonsowman> that is quite a lot
[11:23] <Matt_soton> they are quite nice tho
[11:23] <Matt_soton> but a bit ott
[11:23] <jonsowman> yeah
[11:23] <Matt_soton> also gay package
[11:23] <jonsowman> BGA?
[11:23] <Matt_soton> CSP
[11:24] <Matt_soton> actually QFN like
[11:24] <Matt_soton> not as bad as expected
[11:24] <Matt_soton> LFSCP even
[11:24] <jonsowman> oh that's not that bad
[11:24] <jonsowman> especially if reflowing
[11:25] <Matt_soton> the other thing is dds is om nom for power
[11:25] <jonsowman> lol
[11:25] <Matt_soton> compared to pll
[11:25] <jonsowman> yeah
[11:25] <jonsowman> pll is harder to design perhaps
[11:25] <jonsowman> but probably the way to go
[11:26] <Matt_soton> depends what i can find i think
[11:26] <jonsowman> yeah
[11:26] <Matt_soton> equally could filter a square wave and hope no-one cares
[11:27] <jonsowman> should be fine if you do it right
[11:36] <Laurenceb> you can do small BGA with a hot air tool
[11:36] <Laurenceb> >~9 balls gets harder
[11:45] <Darkside> hey guys
[11:45] <Darkside> i'm playing with APRS lol
[11:45] <Darkside> http://aprs.fi/?call=a%2FVK5NEX-9&_s=ll
[11:45] <NigeyS> stop it Darkside hams will complain!
[11:45] <Darkside> haha
[11:45] <Darkside> bugger off
[11:45] <NigeyS> :p
[11:46] <Darkside> http://i.imgur.com/hvR5C.jpg theres the tracker
[11:46] <Darkside> lol
[11:46] <Darkside> up the tower with all the spiders
[11:46] <Darkside> ugh
[11:46] <NigeyS> spiders.. screw that, spiders over there tend to eat biards and stuff!
[11:46] <Darkside> haha
[11:47] <Darkside> these ones are abit small for that
[11:47] <Darkside> still...
[11:47] <NigeyS> lol yuck!
[11:47] <NigeyS> love the way the antenna is like 10 times bigger than the payload!
[11:55] <fsphil> spiders? in australia?
[11:56] <fsphil> they're scary enough when they can't kill you :p
[11:56] <Darkside> haha
[11:57] <fsphil> I think a public version of aprs would be really neat
[11:58] <fsphil> a peer-to-peer network
[11:58] <Darkside> you could use AX25 if it wasnt for commercial use
[11:59] <fsphil> hmmm.. an ax.25/twitter bridge
[11:59] <NigeyS> ooo
[12:00] <fsphil> via the payload
[12:00] <Darkside> we want to fly an aprs digipeater here..
[12:01] <fsphil> that would be very cool
[12:01] <fsphil> wouldn't it receive too much traffic though?
[12:02] <Darkside> it would only digipeat packets with a certain path
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[12:09] <Zuph> wb8elk has flown voice repeaters in the past.
[12:09] <Zuph> Well, parrot repeaters.
[12:11] <griffonbot> Received email: Anthony Stirk "Re: [UKHAS] James May, Man Lab."
[12:17] <Darkside> Zuph: we've flown talk-through repeaters
[12:17] <Darkside> cross-band ones, 2m in, 70cm out
[12:17] <Upu> uBlox 6 break out boards have been shipped
[12:19] <Darkside> oh man, just found a pag full of BASIC code on a bit of paper in my dads radio shack
[12:19] <Darkside> its a program to calculate the element lengths of a log periodic array
[12:21] <NigeyS> :o
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[12:57] <russss> London Hackspace has ordered one of these (the dev kit version): http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/251588730/kicksat-your-personal-spacecraft-in-space
[12:57] <russss> if anyone has any cool ideas of what to do with it :)
[12:57] <russss> http://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Project:HackSat1
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[13:02] Action: hibby nyans
[13:04] <Laurenceb> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=nyan%20dubstep&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBoQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DBeGjTiUqw8U&ei=OqiqTtzyK8Gu8QOd2fmjCw&usg=AFQjCNGCf-3dWEN-yRTgr6Jp3CA4aPRX4A&cad=rja
[13:08] <Laurenceb> http://www.wimp.com/flybird/
[13:20] <hibby> sweet
[13:21] <hibby> when i actually have money i intend to learn to paraglide
[13:21] <hibby> I spend enough on giant kites as it is
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[13:34] <SamSilver> hibby: geat video
[13:35] <SamSilver> hibby: I am not much of a fan of floppy wings, prefer rigid wing hang gliders, from a safety point.
[13:36] <DanielRichman> fsphil: almost there :-) http://i.imgur.com/pG2uJ.png
[13:40] <SpeedEvil> Oooh!
[13:40] Action: SpeedEvil ponders.
[13:41] <SpeedEvil> I wonder with suitable winches, and weight transfer, you could make a parachute 'flap' upwards.
[13:42] <SpeedEvil> A. parachutist winched rapidly up, pulling parachute down hard, while pointed for optimal glide-slope, to increase forward momentum.
[13:43] <SpeedEvil> B. Parachutist swings forward and winches release, as canopy angles up, and 'flares', gaining altitude.
[13:43] <SpeedEvil> Cycle repeats.
[13:44] <SpeedEvil> (and yes, you'd need to keep net tension on the lines at all times, and the dynamics are fun. And the lousy L/D makes it challenging.
[13:50] <Laurenceb> hmm maybe
[13:50] Action: Laurenceb is trying to work out if this is crackpot
[13:50] <Laurenceb> http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/05/nasa-confirms-widom-larsen-theory.html
[13:52] <Darkside> yeah
[13:53] <Darkside> the rossi stuff is happening now apparently
[13:53] <Laurenceb> it kind of makes sense... kind of
[13:53] <Darkside> been following it with vague interest, but it seems crackpot...
[13:53] <Darkside> theres some kind of test going on right now supposedly
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[13:56] <Darkside> but no results will be released until midnight
[13:57] Action: SpeedEvil bets it's an elaborate suicide scheme that he'll blame on big oil.
[13:58] <Zuph> The fact that most references to "Widom Larsen" are on Cold Fusion forums and speculative science sites doesn't lend the idea much credance.
[13:59] GW8RAK_ (~chatzilla@host-78-150-131-115.as13285.net) joined #highaltitude.
[13:59] <Darkside> anyway, sleep time for me
[13:59] <Darkside> nn
[14:00] <Laurenceb> Zuph: yeah that was my conclusion
[14:00] GW8RAK (~chatzilla@host-78-150-131-115.as13285.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
[14:00] <Zuph> Think horses, not zebras.
[14:00] Nick change: GW8RAK_ -> GW8RAK
[14:03] <Laurenceb> http://ryviewpoint.blogspot.com/2010/04/widom-larsen-redux.html
[14:03] <Laurenceb> Larsen talks about collective effects and evidence that biology has anticipated the theory by several billion years, i.e. bacteria appear to use this effect to transmute elements needed for their growth
[14:03] <Laurenceb> o...k...
[14:07] <Laurenceb> mass normalized surface plasmon polaritons... convert gamma to IR
[14:07] <Laurenceb> riiigggghht
[14:08] <Zuph> heh
[14:09] <Laurenceb> it might actually work... apart from the fact gamma rays have wavelength smaller than an atom
[14:11] <Laurenceb> http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_KtMisEcJcwc/TGQZO07-HNI/AAAAAAAABS8/TfILQWuyHP0/s1600/Widom-Larsen.jpg
[14:12] <nosebleedKT> well
[14:12] <GW8RAK> "We want to outfit a van with a 4' dish for Balloon Tracking live downlink
[14:12] <GW8RAK> video and not have it blow off the roof at 70 MPH" by Bob Bruninga, the inventor of APRS
[14:13] <nosebleedKT> is any coder there?
[14:13] <nosebleedKT> fsphil
[14:13] <nosebleedKT> SpeedEvil
[14:14] <nosebleedKT> Im about to do something very cool for habing. Im close. But I need some bit decoding :)
[14:15] <SpeedEvil> GW8RAK: The positioning servos will be fun
[14:15] <nosebleedKT> SpeedEvil
[14:16] <SpeedEvil> GW8RAK: I think the only sane way is to put it in a dome
[14:16] <nosebleedKT> SpeedEvil: you are about to help me ?
[14:16] <GW8RAK> I remember in the days of AO-40, there was someone with a 2.3GHz dish which he used mobile, i.e. while moving.
[14:17] <SpeedEvil> nosebleedKT: with what - I probably can't, but ask your quetion.
[14:17] <nosebleedKT> SpeedEvil: you can. you are goot at that
[14:17] <nosebleedKT> well let me post a code snippet on pastebin
[14:17] <SpeedEvil> If it's not in a dome, consider the side-forces when it's side-on, and generating lift.
[14:17] <SpeedEvil> At 70MPH
[14:18] <GW8RAK> IIRC, it was in the back of his pickup. The dish was about 2' diamater IIRRC
[14:20] <nosebleedKT> SpeedEvil: http://pastebin.com/t3yZCM1t
[14:20] <nosebleedKT> The callsigns in an AX.25 frame have their bytes shifted 1 bit to the left, that's why they're not readable.
[14:20] <nosebleedKT> I need to make them readable.
[14:20] <SpeedEvil> Not up to that today.
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[14:21] <nosebleedKT> this code swifts the bits to the left and i need to undo that
[14:21] <nosebleedKT> :(
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[14:46] <SamSilver> later
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[14:54] <griffonbot> Received email: Dave Hibberd "Re: [UKHAS] James May, Man Lab."
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[15:03] <Laurenceb> http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/article3300369.ece/REPRESENTATIONS/w468/bomb_468_330.jpg
[15:03] <Laurenceb> ooh my christmas present is on the way
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[15:18] <Laurenceb> http://www.sparkfun.com/products/10890
[15:18] <Laurenceb> nice
[15:18] <Laurenceb> new sift4 as well
[15:19] <Laurenceb> boo 18km limit
[15:20] <Upu> Inventek advised they are looking at a SiRF4 with HA build like their ISM300
[15:21] <Zuph> 1.8v, man
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[15:24] <UpuWork> there is a low voltage version of the uBLOX6
[15:25] <Zuph> Even the hobby stuff is moving to 1.8v. More and more micros and simple fpgas require it.
[15:29] <griffonbot> Received email: Anthony Stirk "Re: [UKHAS] James May, Man Lab."
[15:33] <Laurenceb> noone uses 5v now XD
[15:37] <UpuWork> Ava did till I broke it
[15:40] <number10> *number10 wonders if anyone is using 12v cmos
[15:41] <Laurenceb> lol
[15:41] <Laurenceb> or +-15v analogue
[15:44] <number10> I have my PIC running 5v rtty at the moment - but need to change to 3v3 for the gps
[15:46] <griffonbot> Received email: Philip Heron "Re: [UKHAS] James May, Man Lab."
[15:53] <UpuWork> good point fsphil!
[15:55] <fsphil-laptop> lol
[15:55] <fsphil-laptop> well maybe small easy to reach trees
[15:57] <Zuph> trees with built in ladders, and branches made for mounting antennas.
[15:58] <fsphil-laptop> ooh
[16:01] Action: SpeedEvil is annoyed at vendors of heatpumps on ebay.
[16:02] <SpeedEvil> I'm surprised how good the best ones are. (not on ebay)
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[16:03] <SpeedEvil> I hadn't realised they'd got this good - I'm looking at a toshiba datasheet giving a COP of 5.6, at 7C ambient, and 2.5kW out.
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[16:30] <nosebleedKT> Last month I ordered a canon from ebay for 60e. It came but it had some problems with the lens. So i sent it back and the ebay user told me he will send me another one. Now he mailed me at told me that the envelope i sent him was empty...
[16:44] <SpeedEvil> Did you do the dispute resolution procedure, or just post it back?
[16:46] <nosebleedKT> i mailed him that this camera is not working as expected and he told me to mail it back and then he would send me another cam
[16:46] <nosebleedKT> i said ok and mailed back the cam
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[16:55] <SpeedEvil> It could have been nicked in the post.
[16:55] <SpeedEvil> If you do it through the dispute resolution procedure, and post it back tracked, you're guaranteed of a response.
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[17:13] <joph> hello
[17:14] <fsphil-laptop> hiya joph
[17:15] <joph> is there a console version of dl-fldigi available?
[17:15] <joph> im currently thinking about launching a receiver for 434MHz near the alps ;)
[17:17] <SpeedEvil> Little tripod + solar panel + balloon +3g = ground relay transmitter?
[17:17] <joph> just a receiver on the ground
[17:17] <fsphil-laptop> no console version, but it does have an interface for controlling it remotely
[17:18] <fsphil-laptop> someone here is developing a web interface too
[17:18] <joph> thats the problem, my server hasn't a graphics card and a virtual x server just for the gui is a bad solution
[17:18] <joph> does it run without a xserver?
[17:19] <fsphil-laptop> afraid not
[17:19] <joph> my server is the dockstar ;)
[17:19] <joph> 1,2GHz ARM
[17:19] <fsphil-laptop> if you're up for some hacking then it should be possible to use the rtty demodulator in you're own program :)
[17:19] <fsphil-laptop> your*
[17:20] <joph> may i can receive the reflections from the alps
[17:21] <SpeedEvil> xvnc isn't actually that bad.
[17:21] <SpeedEvil> If you've got ~40k/s available, it works. Slowly, but OK.
[17:21] <joph> 128MB ram ;)
[17:21] <SpeedEvil> If you're quotad of course, that can rapidly become an issue
[17:21] <SpeedEvil> X works fine in 128M
[17:21] <fsphil-laptop> the alps would be good if you're receiving a signal over very long distance (>500km)
[17:22] <SpeedEvil> I dunno about fldigi though
[17:22] <fsphil-laptop> the waterfall would make vnc a bit more difficult
[17:22] Action: SpeedEvil finds fldigi is not installed, so can't be easily tested.
[17:22] <SpeedEvil> It's managable - especially if you put it in 'spectrum' mode.
[17:23] <joph> thats nearly the place for the receiver: http://goo.gl/Im3Md
[17:24] <griffonbot> Received email: Terry Baume "Re: [UKHAS] uBlox-6"
[17:25] <fsphil-laptop> I normally run dl-fldigi at home and control it with vnc
[17:26] <fsphil-laptop> it's just about workable over gsm
[17:28] <fsphil-laptop> a console version would be really handy though
[17:30] <DanielRichman> I presume streaming the audio is impractical
[17:30] <Zuph> Ascii art waterfall? :-p
[17:30] <fsphil-laptop> exactly Zuph :)
[17:32] <DanielRichman> there was some talk of a python rtty demodulator though I don't thinkt he project has started. This may be easier or harder than hacking the rtty demod out of fldigi. If you do go for python, making it upload is really easy :-)
[17:34] <fsphil-laptop> haha
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[17:41] <fsphil-laptop> did anything change on the server a few days ago DanielRichman? I've noticed it going a lot faster recently
[17:41] <DanielRichman> hmm um. I don't think so
[17:41] <DanielRichman> you mean couch responding faster?
[17:42] <fsphil-laptop> yea
[17:42] <DanielRichman> I don't remember changing anything
[17:42] <fsphil-laptop> I have it setup to fetch data from a certain point -- recently it's been doing it in a few seconds, before it took about 10
[17:42] <fsphil-laptop> could be something on my own side
[17:42] <DanielRichman> interesting
[17:43] <DanielRichman> which view are you using?
[17:43] <fsphil-laptop> no view, all changes
[17:44] <DanielRichman> hmm. Pretty sure I didn't do anything
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[17:45] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[17:48] <fsphil-laptop> yoyo
[17:48] <mattltm> Hi Lunar_Lander :)
[17:48] <Lunar_Lander> how are you all?
[17:49] <mattltm> I will be ok in 20 mins when I have finished work :(
[17:49] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[17:50] <Lunar_Lander> does your Venus GPS work btw?
[17:50] <mattltm> Mine?
[17:50] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[17:51] <Lunar_Lander> the one you have bought according to your blog
[17:51] <mattltm> Works fine on the ground. Its not been up high yet.
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[17:52] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[17:52] <Lunar_Lander> I still have to take mine to the garden
[17:52] <Lunar_Lander> so
[17:52] <Lunar_Lander> dinnertime
[17:56] <Zuph> FYI, The Venus doesn't work above 60k without a firmware upgrade.
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[18:12] <Lunar_Lander> back
[18:12] <Lunar_Lander> yeah Zuph
[18:15] <Lunar_Lander> Zuph and Dan-K2VOL how interested are you in experiments on flights? I mean you got the dust counter and helium status sensors for SpeedBall
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[18:18] <Zuph> My personal interest is in the engineering challenges involved in long distance/long duration flight. I'm extremely interested in any experiments to that end.
[18:18] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[18:18] <Lunar_Lander> maybe we will have a superpressure balloon one day
[18:18] <Zuph> I'm not *disinterested* in other experiments, nor will I go out of my way to avoid them, but I'm not going to invest man-weeks of my time in them :)
[18:19] Laurenceb_ (~Laurence@host109-157-38-126.range109-157.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[18:20] <Lunar_Lander> yeah :)
[18:21] <Lunar_Lander> also you need that context and stuff all the time
[18:21] <Lunar_Lander> if you would for instance measure cosmic ray flux
[18:21] <Dan-K2VOL> Lunar_Lander I'm very interested in facilitating science experiments flying on balloons. That's one of my core reasons for continuing to make this stuff easier
[18:21] <Lunar_Lander> you need to correlate that with not only the altitude but also the latitude and longitude
[18:21] <Lunar_Lander> yeah!
[18:21] <Dan-K2VOL> However, I don't have the resources to do many experiments personally outside of engineering tests
[18:21] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[18:22] <Dan-K2VOL> on the superpressure work, and the trans-atlantic zero pressure work, we try to make the information public, and then eventually would like to do nice tutorials
[18:23] <Lunar_Lander> I got several ideas for balloon experiments, most from the Review of Scientific Instruments
[18:23] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[18:23] <Zuph> At this point in Amateur HAB, the engineering and the science are so closely linked that it's impossible to have a preference.
[18:23] <Lunar_Lander> true
[18:23] <Lunar_Lander> I have a division of some kind
[18:23] <Dan-K2VOL> yeah, the atmospheric science severely affects the longevity any balloon that is a constant-altitude
[18:23] <Lunar_Lander> I got the experiments connected to balloon design and performance
[18:24] <Lunar_Lander> and then any experiments about the high atmosphere
[18:24] <Lunar_Lander> so to speak
[18:24] <Dan-K2VOL> I'd like for the superpressure balloons to eventually be available to purchase by amateurs like you purchase latex. Then you can really do some experiments
[18:25] <Zuph> That would be really neat.
[18:25] <Dan-K2VOL> you'll need to be quite careful with your launch prep and math, but the tools we're writing will make that easy if you follow instructions and have a 0.01g resolution scale
[18:25] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[18:25] <Lunar_Lander> that would be cool
[18:25] <Zuph> Dan-K2VOL: Just give 'em some alkaseltzer tablets to shake inside the balloon at launch.
[18:26] <Dan-K2VOL> heh, or perhaps drano and aluminum foil
[18:26] <Zuph> Do-it-yourself long-duration balloon and/or suicide kit
[18:26] <Laurenceb_> http://newstechnica.com/2011/04/29/ubuntu-vista-11-04-defies-expectations/
[18:27] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[18:27] <Lunar_Lander> Laurenceb_ may I try to build one of your dust collectors?
[18:27] <Laurenceb_> of course
[18:27] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[18:27] <Laurenceb_> dont electrocute yourself
[18:27] <Lunar_Lander> yea
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[18:38] <Zuph> I am actually kind of digging the kicad workflow after working with it for a while.
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[18:52] <Laurenceb_> https://secure.mysociety.org/admin/lists/pipermail/developers-public/2011-October/007647.html
[18:52] <Laurenceb_> "If you can find a host for me that has a friendly parrot, I will be
[18:52] <Laurenceb_> very very glad. If you can find someone who has a friendly parrot I
[18:52] <Laurenceb_> can visit with, that will be nice too.
[18:52] <Laurenceb_> "
[18:55] <fsphil-laptop> balloon currently at 38.5km: http://aprs.fi/?call=VE4SHS-9
[18:56] <Laurenceb_> ooh
[18:56] <Laurenceb_> where is the altitude?
[18:57] <fsphil-laptop> not every position has an altitude
[18:57] <fsphil-laptop> try the one before the current
[18:57] <fsphil-laptop> ook, just jumped a bit
[18:57] <fsphil-laptop> and is now at 14.1km
[18:57] <Laurenceb_> i think it popped
[18:59] <Laurenceb_> http://thestallmandialogues.com/ <-wow they were onto that fast
[19:14] <Hiena> With some luck, it will land in MacGregor.
[19:33] <Hiena> Oh. The tracking stopped.
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[19:47] <Lunar_Lander> hi Hiena SamSilver_ Paradoxial
[19:47] <Upu> pew pew multi hi
[19:47] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[19:47] <Lunar_Lander> hi Upu
[19:47] <Upu> flawless greeting
[19:48] <Dan-K2VOL> haha
[19:48] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[19:51] <Upu> We ran that output filter from the ADF7012 CUSF design through spice last night and lovely cut off on the 3rd harmonic 42db of attenuation
[19:51] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[19:51] <Lunar_Lander> did you do Fourier?
[19:51] <Hiena> Too good to be real. ;)
[19:52] <Upu> not sure I don't really claim to know much about Spice, we put a sweep through it from 1hz to 2Ghz
[19:56] TimZaman (~chatzilla@535602CA.cm-6-7a.dynamic.ziggo.nl) joined #highaltitude.
[19:56] <TimZaman> fsphil are you here
[19:56] <TimZaman> fsphil-laptop: are you here?
[19:56] <Lunar_Lander> hi TimZaman
[19:56] <TimZaman> hi everyone
[19:56] <TimZaman> Oh Hi
[19:56] <Lunar_Lander> Upu : may I ask a dumb question?
[19:56] <Upu> sure
[19:56] <fsphil-laptop> g'day TimZaman, sure am
[19:57] <Lunar_Lander> what is the device you talked about?
[19:57] <fsphil-laptop> just writing an email to you infact
[19:57] <Upu> evening Tim
[19:57] <Lunar_Lander> with the harmonics
[19:57] <TimZaman> fsphil-laptop: if i reload my page i dont get an update immediatelly
[19:57] <TimZaman> with your site it instantly updates
[19:57] <Upu> ADF7012 is a programmable radio chip as talked about at the Conference
[19:57] <Upu> afk for a bit
[19:57] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[19:57] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[19:57] <fsphil-laptop> TimZaman, yea - the page pre-loads the images before sending it
[19:58] <fsphil-laptop> basically runs the same query as the javascript does
[19:58] <fsphil-laptop> and prints the images in the same way too. then when the page loads, the javascript takes over
[19:58] <TimZaman> how to i do that too
[19:59] <fsphil-laptop> similar to what you did before, with the json query
[20:00] <TimZaman> Okay.. wel i dont mind it not loading instantly
[20:00] <TimZaman> how do i change the info on the bottom
[20:00] <TimZaman> i want the images to fit in the background of my own div
[20:02] <fsphil-laptop> $('#images').prepend(image.html);
[20:02] <fsphil-laptop> this bit just prints the html as sent by my server
[20:02] <fsphil-laptop> you can change image.html with your own html
[20:02] <fsphil-laptop> the image. variable contains all the data you need
[20:02] <TimZaman> And what about the "Lastid" parameter? Its statically set to -1?
[20:03] <fsphil-laptop> it's the last packet id as stored in the database -- the query only returns what happens after that
[20:03] <fsphil-laptop> -1 returns everything
[20:03] <fsphil-laptop> after that you're only interested in the changes
[20:04] <TimZaman> Ah then i'll just set it statically on load on 40500 or something. Okay, that being covered.
[20:04] <TimZaman> Okay so how do i get the image onky from that image.html
[20:04] <fsphil-laptop> -1 is fine too, it limits the response to the last weeks worth of activity
[20:04] <fsphil-laptop> image.image_url contains the file name of the image
[20:07] <TimZaman> oh god sorry i feel like a true idiot
[20:07] <fsphil-laptop> you can get an idea of the data that's being received here: http://www.sanslogic.co.uk/ssdv/data?request=update
[20:07] <fsphil-laptop> this is a dump of the raw data
[20:07] <TimZaman> which is exactly i dont like copying sites :)
[20:07] <fsphil-laptop> well I should really document this ;)
[20:07] <TimZaman> i think i got it covered now, i finally got your structure. sorry, lack on js experience
[20:07] <fsphil-laptop> it'll be moved to habitat eventually anyway
[20:08] <fsphil-laptop> then I've no idea how all this will work ;)
[20:08] <TimZaman> ah that last link was helpful
[20:09] <TimZaman> still, what do you think about the two transmitters? two seperate image? 2x1200 on 1 image?
[20:09] <fsphil-laptop> just crazy enough that it might work :)
[20:09] <fsphil-laptop> your local dl-fldigi screen will display it a bit funny
[20:10] <fsphil-laptop> but it'll combine fine on the website
[20:10] <fsphil-laptop> did you get the other radio module?
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[20:14] <TimZaman> fsphil i got three now
[20:14] <TimZaman> i had the funcube and the yaesu
[20:15] <TimZaman> one yagi though
[20:15] <TimZaman> i now ordered one yagi
[20:15] <TimZaman> and social pressure pushed me into buying a handheld kenwood TH-F7
[20:15] <TimZaman> Very pleased with the last one.
[20:15] <TimZaman> Easy to setup. works great
[20:15] <TimZaman> Looks very funny if i hook up a yagi to the antenna
[20:15] <fsphil-laptop> that's the one that does 70cm ssb isn't it?
[20:15] <TimZaman> yep
[20:16] <TimZaman> though i just noted that it has 3.5mm microphone in, but a 2.5mm microphone in (or at least, a very small connector). need something that i can hook up there i guess
[20:16] <TimZaman> oh yeah i have something working now
[20:17] <TimZaman> fsphil now i need something that displays the current and the previous image
[20:17] <TimZaman> i dont yet see a smart way to do that with the current website implementation?
[20:17] <fsphil-laptop> the small connector might be the PPT
[20:18] <fsphil-laptop> you can limit the response to two images
[20:18] <fsphil-laptop> can't remember how ...
[20:19] <TimZaman> it seems like it's just prepending and prepending, not sure how to easily take the current and previous..
[20:19] <fsphil-laptop> ah
[20:19] <fsphil-laptop> you can remove images from the javascript too
[20:20] <fsphil-laptop> for(var i in response.images) <--
[20:20] <fsphil-laptop> this looks through the images from oldest to newest
[20:20] <fsphil-laptop> loops*
[20:20] <fsphil-laptop> you could have it remove anything but the last two images
[20:20] <fsphil-laptop> ah, wait that won't work
[20:20] <TimZaman> haha like how
[20:22] <Laurenceb_> http://i.imgur.com/srd4T.jpg
[20:22] <fsphil-laptop> .remove() the images (or tables that contain the images+data)
[20:23] <fsphil-laptop> loop through the images, skipping the first two
[20:23] <costyn> Laurenceb_: nice... how *not* to do it :)
[20:25] <fsphil-laptop> of course I'm not sure how to loop through the images
[20:25] <TimZaman> :|
[20:25] <TimZaman> its how my face looks haha
[20:25] <TimZaman> 1 image works great though :)
[20:25] <TimZaman> need two :P
[20:26] <fsphil-laptop> when the javascript adds the new image, just clear the div that contains the images
[20:26] <fsphil-laptop> change it so it adds the newest two
[20:26] <TimZaman> what does this mean> $('#' + image.id).length
[20:27] <costyn> TimZaman: what's happening on the 7th btw? Where/when do we meet up?
[20:27] <TimZaman> costyn: cool you can help
[20:27] <fsphil-laptop> .length returns the number of elements found
[20:27] <fsphil-laptop> == 0 means nothing matches the image id
[20:27] <fsphil-laptop> the image is new
[20:27] <TimZaman> costyn: if you like you can operate the control HQ when im gone those few minutes
[20:28] <costyn> TimZaman: sure, I've never done tracking before tho... guess i"ll have to learn on the fly
[20:28] <TimZaman> ill be there in the start, and i guess you have to learn some stuff anyway; i mean, read Juxta's tutorial for instance
[20:28] <TimZaman> its pretty easy really
[20:28] <costyn> TimZaman: ok that's on the wiki?
[20:30] <TimZaman> ehmmm
[20:30] <TimZaman> something like projecthorus.org?
[20:30] <costyn> this I guess? http://projecthorus.org/?page_id=336
[20:30] <TimZaman> fsphil, well, if the image is new.. cant i then fill in the first div.. and fill the bottom div with the last image
[20:31] <TimZaman> costyn: roger
[20:32] <fsphil-laptop> TimZaman, the last image won't be in the response - it only contains images that have updated
[20:33] <TimZaman> OK..
[20:33] <fsphil-laptop> you might be better with the latest query
[20:33] <fsphil-laptop> you can tell it how many images you want it to return
[20:34] <fsphil-laptop> http://www.sanslogic.co.uk/ssdv/data?request=latest&n=2
[20:34] <fsphil-laptop> where n = the images you want
[20:34] <TimZaman> yeah i know but the updating is not smooth
[20:34] <fsphil-laptop> http://www.sanslogic.co.uk/ssdv/data?request=latest&payload=PD4TA&n=2
[20:34] <fsphil-laptop> yep, but call that query from the javascrpit
[20:34] <fsphil-laptop> javascript*
[20:35] <TimZaman> huh?
[20:35] <fsphil-laptop> better if I describe it through code :)
[20:35] <TimZaman> I guess.. I mean, i have an idea..
[20:35] <TimZaman> I just this javascript only to update the very latest image..
[20:36] <TimZaman> Then, for the previous image, i update that every 5 seconds through that latest json request
[20:36] <fsphil-laptop> you won't need to update the previous image
[20:36] <TimZaman> they way i set it up is; i have two divs, one "#topimg" and a "#botimg". THe top displays the latest
[20:37] <TimZaman> yeah okay but i dont see yet how i pull that off
[20:37] <fsphil-laptop> writing some example code
[20:37] <TimZaman> that'd be kind :)
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[20:41] <Laurenceb_> http://sms.cam.ac.uk/media/1150242
[20:42] <costyn> Laurenceb_: did it work?
[20:43] <costyn> (haven't watched the video, read about it earlier today)
[20:43] <Laurenceb_> twitter says yes
[20:43] <Laurenceb_> but average output as only 470Kw
[20:47] <TimZaman> fsphil omg and i've got the image-caching refreshing problems as well
[20:48] <TimZaman> i guess ill add a javascript " ? + rand()" something like that
[20:48] <fsphil-laptop> use image.unique_packets instead of rand()
[20:49] <TimZaman> yeah i just thought of that
[20:49] <TimZaman> [unique_packets] => 42
[20:49] <fsphil-laptop> that only changes when the image changes
[20:49] <fsphil-laptop> so no unnecessary reloads
[20:50] <fsphil-laptop> ah ha, sorta working 2 images thingy
[20:50] <costyn> Laurenceb_: would still be huge if it were real
[20:51] <TimZaman> fsphil that's pretty smart.
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[20:54] <Laurenceb_> costyn: yeah i was reading about the theoretical explanations
[20:54] <Laurenceb_> seems to make sense to me up to the point where the gamma rays turn into IR
[20:54] <Laurenceb_> but that stuff is a little over my head
[20:54] <fsphil-laptop> TimZaman, #topimg and #botimg are <img> tags yea?
[20:55] <Laurenceb_> if someone can show how it could work with quantum chromodynamics
[20:55] <costyn> Laurenceb_: heh... hadn't gotten that far
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[20:56] <SpeedEvil> Meh - only 470kW.
[20:56] <Laurenceb_> low energy neutron capture seems to explain all the current cold fusion results
[20:56] <TimZaman> fsphil no they are div id's. i use background images
[20:56] <Laurenceb_> if you can explain the gamma ray electron capture stuff
[20:56] <TimZaman> Why, you ask? No reason.
[20:56] Action: SpeedEvil wonders if the sum of the energy exceeds the amount of batteries that can be hidden in the device.
[20:56] <fsphil-laptop> fair enough :)
[20:56] <griffonbot> Received email: David Akerman "Re: [UKHAS] James May, Man Lab."
[20:57] <Laurenceb_> aiui the 'catalyst' is designed to produce the necessary conditions for neutron capture
[20:57] <costyn> SpeedEvil: hehe... like someone on slashdot said "It will work for a short amount of time.... and then slowly drop in output and fail. Because all the AA batteries that are hidden inside all the equipment will have been drained."
[20:57] <TimZaman> fsphil well actually, images can be centered the easiest by using an image as div background
[20:57] <Laurenceb_> thats the key to making it work
[20:57] <Laurenceb_> supposedly
[20:57] <TimZaman> I think you guys are all jealous of his invention
[20:58] <SpeedEvil> Sure.
[20:58] <SpeedEvil> If it works.
[20:58] <SpeedEvil> Gonna need a hell of a lot more proof than a tweet.
[20:58] <Laurenceb_> the gammas are then capture by plasma electrons giving the electron enough energy to produce neutrons and neutrinos with protons from the plasma
[20:59] <Laurenceb_> thats how come it enters a 'self sustaining' phase
[20:59] <TimZaman> haha i was kidding
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[20:59] <Laurenceb_> it all makes sense if you can get the gamma capture by the plasma to work
[20:59] <Laurenceb_> thats the bit i cant believe
[20:59] <TimZaman> at my uni here in Delft they has invited some turkish bozo's as well with some perpetuum mobile, they got a lot of cash to show their crap.
[20:59] <Dan-K2VOL> Happy Weekend!
[21:00] <Dan-K2VOL> ttyl all
[21:00] <costyn> SpeedEvil: well apparently there's consultants who work for the "large US company" now checking it out and testing it. Think we should get an answer conclusively
[21:00] <costyn> unless the large company is a hoax too
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[21:02] Action: SpeedEvil points out that eestor has had those similar sort of statements from 'large US companies'.
[21:02] <Laurenceb_> this is the theory by the larsen guy or whatever hes called
[21:02] <Laurenceb_> yeah but i found the error in the eestor patent
[21:02] <fsphil-laptop> TimZaman, http://www.sanslogic.co.uk/files/ssdv.js
[21:02] <Laurenceb_> they added capacitance for capacitors in series
[21:03] <TimZaman> fsphil ahhh thanks, i see you thouroughly commented the code ;)
[21:03] <Laurenceb_> well - it was inherent if the FEA modelling of the capacitor
[21:03] <fsphil-laptop> naturally :)
[21:04] <Laurenceb_> hiding in the eestor patent
[21:04] <Laurenceb_> now if only Lockheed Martin had paid me to read the patent :P
[21:05] <Lunar_Lander> !
[21:05] <Lunar_Lander> you work for PBH?!
[21:05] <Laurenceb_> im joking
[21:05] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[21:05] Action: Lunar_Lander switches off the alarms
[21:05] <TimZaman> fsphil holy crepe it seems to be working
[21:05] <Laurenceb_> Lockheed Martin invested in EEstor
[21:05] <fsphil-laptop> that's a first lol
[21:06] <Laurenceb_> which was a supercapacitor scam
[21:06] <Laurenceb_> anyway, even if this cold fusion thing works, it cant generate power
[21:07] <Laurenceb_> thats a small issue :P
[21:07] <costyn> Laurenceb_: wait... what do you mean it can't generate power?
[21:07] <costyn> isnt' that the whole point?
[21:07] <Laurenceb_> its generates heat
[21:07] <Laurenceb_> at a not very hot temperature
[21:07] <costyn> aaah ok yea
[21:07] <Laurenceb_> close to useless
[21:08] <SpeedEvil> I'd really like a 10kW cold fusion device.
[21:08] <Laurenceb_> unless they can redesign the nanosctructured crazyness to run at ~600C its useless
[21:08] <SpeedEvil> Hell - make it 30, so I can keep the greenhouse too.
[21:08] <SpeedEvil> What's the purported output temp?
[21:08] <Laurenceb_> 80C
[21:08] <costyn> Laurenceb_: well if it works as a proof of concept I'm sure everyone will jump on it to make it work
[21:08] <SpeedEvil> That's not useless.
[21:08] <SpeedEvil> You can do a 'steam' engine at that pressure, quite easily.
[21:09] <SpeedEvil> Yes, it will blow, compared to carnot.
[21:09] <SpeedEvil> according to carnot.
[21:09] <Lunar_Lander> they want to couple RTGs to stirling engines now
[21:09] <Laurenceb_> there was a PhD opportunity to work on that
[21:10] <Laurenceb_> at Oxford
[21:10] <SpeedEvil> But still - 1kWe + 20kWth is hardly useless.
[21:10] <BrainDamage> esp if it's "free"
[21:10] <SpeedEvil> Indeed.
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[21:11] <SpeedEvil> Is it purported to be aneutronic?
[21:11] <SpeedEvil> Or is there radiation out?
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[21:12] <Laurenceb_> no radiation
[21:12] <Laurenceb_> http://newenergytimes.com/v2/sr/WL/WLTheory.shtml
[21:12] <Laurenceb_> the iItalian guy wont talk about theory, but from the discretion it seems to be based on this 'theory'
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[21:12] <Laurenceb_> *description
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[21:13] <TimZaman> fsphil you are the man
[21:13] <TimZaman> fsphil let me do a check
[21:13] <costyn> this was a somewhat informative read too: http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2011-10/28/cold-fusion
[21:13] <Laurenceb_> its the mass-renormalised surface plasmon polariton electrons that make me doubt the credibility
[21:14] <Laurenceb_> even if such a thing could exist i doubt it could cature gammas like that
[21:14] <BrainDamage> plasmons are the discretization of plasma oscillation
[21:14] <Laurenceb_> i know
[21:14] <Laurenceb_> its not nonsense
[21:15] <Laurenceb_> yet i still doesnt make sense
[21:15] <BrainDamage> yeah, I agree
[21:15] <BrainDamage> "it's not even wrong"
[21:15] <Laurenceb_> the gammas are very high energy... maybe you can show it with some weird quantum effects
[21:15] <Laurenceb_> like mossbauer effect
[21:16] <Laurenceb_> but i doubt it
[21:16] <TimZaman> fsphil the update does flicker though, have any clue why?
[21:16] <Laurenceb_> but if it does exist it explains the 'activation' effects all the cold fusion guys seem to see
[21:16] <fsphil-laptop> might be because it's a div TimZaman
[21:17] <Laurenceb_> as the gammas help energies the electrons
[21:17] <Laurenceb_> energize
[21:17] <TimZaman> kay.. i guess changing to a img cant hurt. Can img's have the css3 shadow effects?
[21:17] Action: costyn is off... ttyl
[21:17] <Laurenceb_> brb
[21:17] <fsphil-laptop> TimZaman, yea
[21:17] <fsphil-laptop> cya costyn
[21:18] <TimZaman> bb
[21:19] <NigeyS> its crazzzzzzzzy tim, wassup mr dutch dude?
[21:20] <Lunar_Lander> xD hi NigeyS
[21:20] <NigeyS> hey Kev!
[21:20] <Lunar_Lander> I am just laughing so hard
[21:20] <Lunar_Lander> TimZaman : do you want to see the newest funniest thing I found?
[21:21] <TimZaman> Lunar_Lander: ofcourse
[21:21] <Lunar_Lander> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_cVweFIsQI
[21:21] <TimZaman> Hi NigeyS , what's crazy these days?
[21:21] <NigeyS> my mind! lol how's things mr ?
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[21:24] <TimZaman> fsphil this doesnt seem to cut it
[21:24] <TimZaman> $('#topimg').img.attr('src', response[0].image.image_name + '?u=' + response[0].image.unique_packets);
[21:25] <fsphil-laptop> try $('#topimg.img').attr...
[21:26] <fsphil-laptop> er
[21:26] <TimZaman> haha NigeyS you germans are craazy
[21:26] <fsphil-laptop> $('#topimg img').attr...
[21:26] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[21:26] <Lunar_Lander> the reason why she smashes the caravan is that she can't find the whipped cream
[21:26] <Lunar_Lander> and then she finds it in her suitcase
[21:27] <Lunar_Lander> only then she realized that she wrecked the whole thing
[21:27] <fsphil-laptop> also, image.image_name should just be .image_name
[21:28] <TimZaman> yeah i got it
[21:28] <TimZaman> no luck with $('#topimg.img').attr('src', response[0].image_url+ '?u=' + response[0].unique_packets); either
[21:28] <fsphil-laptop> yea, take away the point between topimg and img
[21:28] <fsphil-laptop> $('#topimg img').attr...
[21:29] <TimZaman> Nope :)
[21:30] <fsphil-laptop> hmm
[21:30] <TimZaman> so i have this
[21:30] <TimZaman> <img class="spaceimg" id="topimg" />
[21:30] <TimZaman> and do this $('#topimg img').attr('src', response[0].image_url + '?u=' + response[0].unique_packets);
[21:30] <fsphil-laptop> aaah
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[21:30] <TimZaman> Aaah?!
[21:31] <fsphil-laptop> topimg is the image, so you need $('#topimg').attr ...
[21:31] <fsphil-laptop> topimg img looks for an image within the image
[21:31] <TimZaman> You are exactly right
[21:31] <TimZaman> now lets see if that solves our problem
[21:33] <TimZaman> fsphil for some reason it kinda doesnt put anew img in
[21:34] <TimZaman> hoooooo i said nothing
[21:34] <fsphil-laptop> the images are still ending early
[21:34] <TimZaman> fsphil your hypothesis was right
[21:34] <TimZaman> everything works now
[21:35] <TimZaman> thanks man you're the chief
[21:35] <TimZaman> the updating does not flicker anymore
[21:35] <fsphil-laptop> yea, I think the browsers handle image refreshing differently to avoid the flicker
[21:36] <TimZaman> yep
[21:36] <TimZaman> okay so it looks awesome
[21:36] <Lunar_Lander> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5FQ_mPlJRI&feature=related
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[21:37] <TimZaman> fsphil all images will be 680x460 btw
[21:37] <fsphil-laptop> how long does that take at 1200 baud?
[21:38] <TimZaman> fsphil http://i.imgur.com/C2VKe.jpg
[21:38] <TimZaman> yeah i was timing it just now
[21:39] <TimZaman> this fairly complex testimage takes like 2 minutes, but its smaller
[21:39] <TimZaman> i hope it takes 1~1.5m
[21:39] <fsphil-laptop> aaah
[21:39] <TimZaman> oh yeah i was now using 600bd
[21:39] <TimZaman> at 1200 its going to take
[21:39] <TimZaman> ehh
[21:39] <TimZaman> let me test it!
[21:39] <fsphil-laptop> 600 is definitely safer
[21:40] <fsphil-laptop> though if you're doubling up on the radio modules you'll still have the same speed
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[21:42] <fsphil-laptop> if you have a problem with one though you'll end up with a very patchy image :)
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[21:44] <TimZaman> fsphil Error: Component 1 sampling factor must be 2x2?
[21:45] <fsphil-laptop> the jpeg must not be a 4:2:0 one
[21:46] <TimZaman> yeah got it
[21:46] <fsphil-laptop> is this directly from the camera?
[21:46] <TimZaman> i hate gimp
[21:46] <TimZaman> no
[21:46] <TimZaman> here it comes
[21:46] <fsphil-laptop> I'll eventually figure out how to convert those other jpeg formats
[21:51] <TimZaman> fsphil-laptop: well thats super low priority
[21:51] <TimZaman> anyway 1200bd doesnt seem to be working too well with the kenwood over a microphone :)
[21:53] <fsphil-laptop> 1200 is right on the edge of most amateur radios audio bandwidth
[21:53] <TimZaman> yeah last time it worked pretty well though i have to say
[21:54] <fsphil-laptop> 1000 baud would be better
[21:55] <TimZaman> the reason why it went wrong is that (1) i wasnt really looking when it started; so i siwtched to 1200bd way too late. and (2) i got the tuning right only when you said to center it around 1500
[21:55] <fsphil-laptop> wonder if the signal can be got out of the radio before it's filtered
[21:56] <TimZaman> tim@timlptp:~$ stty -F /dev/ttyUSB0 1000
[21:56] <TimZaman> stty: invalid argument `1000'
[21:56] <TimZaman> :(
[21:56] <fsphil-laptop> yep - non-standard
[21:56] <TimZaman> oh well
[21:56] <fsphil-laptop> no technical reason, just people picked multiples of 300 for some reason
[21:56] <TimZaman> the only thing i'd love is a image-inpaint function
[21:57] <TimZaman> yep
[21:57] <TimZaman> 900 then
[21:57] <TimZaman> Nope
[21:57] <TimZaman> Also, fsphil, do you see the images are stopping early again?
[21:57] <TimZaman> THis is actually straight fromt he machine im on now, ubuntu 11.10, very proper laptop
[21:58] <TimZaman> i think it has something to do with the ftdi thingy
[21:58] <fsphil-laptop> well, powers of 300
[21:58] <TimZaman> It seems to be stopping at like 70% of what you give its buffer
[21:58] <TimZaman> and right before that the whole computer hangs for 20 seconds
[21:58] <fsphil-laptop> you might be feeding the buffer too fast
[21:59] <TimZaman> how then
[21:59] <fsphil-laptop> can you change it so that it feeds 1 packet at a time, with a short sleep between packets?
[21:59] <TimZaman> last time i solved this problem by splitting it into packets of 256, and "sleeping" for like 100ms in between
[21:59] <TimZaman> yeah, but only if it wait a little in between
[22:00] <fsphil-laptop> ideally it should just block until the buffer is clear enough to accept more data
[22:01] <fsphil-laptop> not sure why it just stops
[22:01] <TimZaman> Yeah i did a "split --bytes=256" then a loop over all the splits, and send out every file with cat and then a "sleep 3"
[22:01] <TimZaman> that way i did have a nice continous transmission =)
[22:01] <fsphil-laptop> if you did that but without the sleep, does it still die before finishing?
[22:02] <Laurenceb_> http://sms.cam.ac.uk/media/1074586
[22:02] <TimZaman> fsphil yep
[22:02] <Laurenceb_> this has left my impression of the cam video database... somewhat dented
[22:03] <TimZaman> fsphil thanks for the help. i guess it's done!
[22:04] <TimZaman> im off!
[22:04] <TimZaman> bb everyone
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[23:00] <Laurenceb_> http://www.e-catworld.com/2011/10/e-day-thread-rossis-1-mw-e-cat-plant-tested-by-first-customer/
[23:00] <Laurenceb_> video up
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[00:00] --- Sat Oct 29 2011