highaltitude.log.20111026

[00:09] <nickolai> darkside, how do u measure neck lift?
[00:09] <Darkside> upside-down fish scales
[00:09] <Darkside> but we fill in a garage
[00:09] <Darkside> so theres no wind
[00:10] <nickolai> i filled in the open last time
[00:10] <nickolai> we could do that since there was no wind, but someone suggested asking the airport if we could fill in their hangar
[00:10] <Randomskk> <3 flow meter
[00:11] <Darkside> i bet you do Randomskk
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[03:33] Action: griffonbot is GriffonBot [http://github.com/ssb/griffonbot]
[03:33] Action: griffonbot is following: #ukhas #cusf #atlasballoon #projecthorus
[03:33] Action: griffonbot is tracking emails sent to ukhas@googlegroups.com
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[07:51] <daveake> Good moaning
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[08:02] <costyn> moaning to you too :P
[08:02] <costyn> wait... that sounds wrong :)
[08:02] <SamSilver> and a groan fro me too
[08:02] <daveake> :)
[08:02] <daveake> Last day of the week for me ... off tomorrow for a long weekend away :)
[08:03] <daveake> First break of the year. Can't come too soon.
[08:04] <daveake> Thanks for asking. Helsinki. :p
[08:05] <SamSilver> where you off to daveake ?
[08:05] <daveake> :D
[08:06] <SamSilver> mp
[08:06] <SamSilver> and of then followed by .... why Helsinki?
[08:07] <daveake> lol
[08:07] <SamSilver> *of course
[08:07] <daveake> 'cos I've never been there. And we're meeting some friends.
[08:08] <SamSilver> you have friends outside of highaltitude IRC?
[08:08] <daveake> I have friends inside of highaltitude IRC?
[08:08] <SamSilver> ;)
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[08:08] <costyn> Helsinki is nice... and Finland too... was there last year on vacation
[08:09] <daveake> Reminds me of the old "Hancock" quote from the radio ham episode .... "I have lots of friends all over the world. None in this country, but lots all over the world"
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[08:28] <SamSilver> I start watching the Apex launch video and wife hears 99 red balloons sound track and has a look at the screen and sees young boys in a bedroom ...
[08:28] <jonsowman> haha
[08:28] <SamSilver> "What are you watching?"
[08:28] <jonsowman> it gets better... (musically)
[08:29] <daveake> :). Not many ways it could get worse (musically)
[08:29] <SamSilver> when I first joing Highaltitude irc first name she saw was darkside and said show me a picture of this evil darkside
[08:29] <jonsowman> hahaha
[08:29] <SamSilver> "and what type of a name is Upu?"
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[08:31] <costyn> heheh
[08:31] <daveake> "It's OK. He's from Yorkshire and he likes pink".
[08:31] <daveake> Erm....
[08:32] <SamSilver> lol
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[08:37] <Upu> Upu is bestest name
[08:38] <Upu> I can give you the boring story of why if you really want
[08:38] <costyn> Upu: sure lets hear it :)
[08:38] <Upu> Well this little fella http://www.cheops.org/startpage/therobots/upuaut2.jpg
[08:38] <SamSilver> swing it
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[08:39] <Upu> back when things were made of wood and the internet was via these "modems" Demon internet wanted a hostname and I was reading a book on the exploration of the pyramids and that robot was there
[08:39] <Upu> so I choose that name
[08:40] <Upu> since shortened :)
[08:40] <Upu> not very interesting
[08:40] <daveake> :)
[08:40] <costyn> what was the full name of the robot ?
[08:40] <Upu> Upuaut
[08:41] <Upu> which is actually an egyptian god
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[08:41] <costyn> In late Egyptian mythology, Wepwawet (hieroglyphic wp-w3w.t; also rendered Upuaut, Wep-wawet, Wepawet, and Ophois) was originally a war deity
[08:41] Action: costyn was just reading wikipedia :)
[08:42] <costyn> not bad :)
[08:42] <SamSilver> want to hear why I am "SamSilver' ?
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[08:42] <SamSilver> when my real name is David
[08:42] <Upu> go for it
[08:42] <SamSilver> my wive is Sam short for Samantha
[08:43] <jonsowman> i have a feeling the story of my nick won't be quite as interesting...
[08:43] <Upu> afterwards I'm waiting for niftylettuce to explain their name
[08:43] <Upu> lol
[08:43] <daveake> lol
[08:43] <SamSilver> and the first time I logged on I said "what should I call my self?"
[08:43] <daveake> Mine hardly needs explaining :)
[08:43] <SamSilver> and she said "Sam's Silver Haired Lover"
[08:43] <SamSilver> it got shortened to Sam Silver
[08:43] <Upu> probably best
[08:44] <costyn> SamSilver: nice :)
[08:44] <SamSilver> Upu lol
[08:44] <costyn> I've never thought of a good nick for myself... so now it's just my first name
[08:44] <SamSilver> I like Dan's nick
[08:44] <SamSilver> says what it is
[08:46] <SamSilver> I thought eroomde was a french guy called eroomde
[08:46] <Upu> turn it round...
[08:46] <costyn> haha
[08:46] <costyn> never realized that
[08:46] <SamSilver> I know ed now
[08:47] <costyn> ex-collegue's nick was ainmosni, also means something when turned around
[08:47] <number10> was it eroomde at home and edmoore when at work or visa verse
[08:47] <SamSilver> and that Laurenceb was a female
[08:47] <costyn> SamSilver: was?
[08:47] <SamSilver> Lauren ceb
[08:48] <SamSilver> NO!! he has always been a male
[08:48] <SamSilver> lol
[08:49] <eroomde> ears burning
[08:49] <eroomde> i am actually half french, for what it's worth
[08:49] <SamSilver> when you spoke about french farm house
[08:50] <SamSilver> grans spot I was sure you was french
[08:51] <eroomde> i can put on a convincing accent
[08:53] <eroomde> balloniere haute-altitude
[08:54] <daveake> Fetchez la vache
[08:55] <eroomde> i saw that in french a bit back
[08:55] <eroomde> well, i saw it on this franco-german tv channel called arte that they made to stop another war happening
[08:55] <daveake> lol
[08:56] <eroomde> so they tend to broadcast films in their native language and subtite french or german as appropriate
[08:56] <daveake> It played in Cologne I think
[08:56] <eroomde> so the scene at the french castle....
[08:56] <daveake> Spamalot, I mean, not The Holy Grail
[08:56] <daveake> yep
[08:56] <eroomde> i noticed the french subtitles were whizzing past a lot faster than the english dialogue
[08:56] <daveake> lol
[08:56] <eroomde> and when i was actually reading them - wow
[08:56] <eroomde> someone with a griudge against the english
[08:56] <daveake> That doesn't narrow it down much :)
[08:57] <eroomde> he totally ignored the dialogue and was just having a proper keyboard bashing rant about les anglais perfidu
[08:57] <daveake> lol
[08:57] <eroomde> about how smelly and untrustworthy and uncultured we all are
[08:59] <daveake> Fair
[08:59] <daveake> lol
[09:00] <eroomde> :)
[09:02] <costyn> hehehe
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[09:30] Nick change: SamSilver -> SamSilver_
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[09:38] <niftylettuce> jonsowman Upu daveake hmm
[09:38] <Upu> got for it
[09:38] <Upu> go for it
[09:38] <Upu> why niftylettuce ? :)
[09:40] <niftylettuce> Upu: well... let us just say that someone who you never expect to be down to earth, was in fact, rather down to earth, and therefore this nick was coined
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[09:41] <Upu> fair enough :)
[09:48] <eroomde> totally don't get it
[09:53] <number10> Upu - do you happen remember the rough size of the AVA payload?
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[10:20] <earthshine> Morning
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[10:40] <Upu> hey number10
[10:40] <Upu> about 19cms square ?
[10:40] <Upu> maybe a little smaller
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[11:08] <jgrahamc> Morning
[11:08] <jgrahamc> Did anyone watch the BBC documentary about Bletchley Park last night?
[11:09] <daveake> Yes. Very very interesting.
[11:09] <jgrahamc> It's on iPlayer here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b016ltm0/CodeBreakers_Bletchley_Parks_Lost_Heroes/
[11:09] <daveake> Will have to watch it again
[11:09] <jgrahamc> There was a lot of RTTY playing in the background because that's what the Lorenz was using.
[11:09] <jgrahamc> Anyone fancy having a go at decoding the RTTY the BBC transmitted as background music? Would be fun to see what they were sending.
[11:11] <GW8RAK> Don't know if it is still the case, but it was BBC policy for years that if morse was heard, it had to be meaningless
[11:12] <jgrahamc> That wasn't the case with the Inspector Morse series though. I distinctly remember the CW in the title sequence being real.
[11:13] <GW8RAK> That was on ITV (sorry to appear a smart arse)
[11:13] <jgrahamc> But perhaps that wasn't made by the BBC
[11:13] <jgrahamc> Not a smart arse. I'd forgotten that part!
[11:13] <GW8RAK> But so few people now know morse, it's less of a concern
[11:14] <Randomskk> why would it have been a big deal anyway?
[11:14] <jonsowman> there was Morse on Top Gear once
[11:14] <Randomskk> presumably they wouldn't be transmitting obscenities, people who did know morse would probably just enjoy it
[11:14] <jonsowman> think it said "I love cheese"
[11:14] <jgrahamc> Seems like a silly restriction. Surely they could have just repeated something boring over and over again.
[11:14] <jonsowman> or words to that effect
[11:15] <jonsowman> in the following episode they said "Strictly Come Dancing is crap"
[11:15] <jonsowman> which people weren't so happy about
[11:15] <GW8RAK> It was probably a throw back to the days of William Rees Mogg who oversaw every little detail of the BBC
[11:15] <GW8RAK> His influence, apparently extended well into the 80's
[11:15] <jgrahamc> Can you feed an audio file into dl-fldigi?
[11:15] <daveake> yes
[11:15] <daveake> Probably only wav files
[11:16] <GW8RAK> Not Rees Mogg, who was the first DG of the BBC?
[11:17] <eroomde> henry wood?
[11:17] <eroomde> no worry nonesense
[11:17] <eroomde> lord reith
[11:17] <eroomde> of reith lecture fame
[11:17] <eroomde> worry/sorry
[11:17] <GW8RAK> That's him
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[11:24] <griffonbot> @jgrahamc: Received the inner capsule for my next #ukhas flight to be named BabyGAGA. Small and light. http://t.co/zJEwKnV1 [http://twitter.com/jgrahamc/status/129156511250382850]
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[11:31] <eroomde> jgrahamc: nice
[11:31] <eroomde> what's the flight objective?
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[11:44] <jgrahamc> eroomde: got two small video cameras (keychain cams). Plan one to try to film the burst, the other the view.
[11:45] <jgrahamc> Want to be really light this time. So no large Canon camera, no GSM backup. Try to get video and perhaps altitude.
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[12:17] <fsphil> jgrahamc, was tempted to run fldigi on it last night :)
[12:17] <jgrahamc> I think it would be worth is fsphil just to see where they got the RTTY from.
[12:17] <fsphil> but it did make me wonder what enigma and lorenz actually sounded like
[12:18] <jgrahamc> Enigma was transmitted as CW
[12:18] <jgrahamc> Lorenz was just RTTY
[12:18] <fsphil> ah so same as what we're used to today
[12:18] <jgrahamc> Would be funny if that RTTY in the BBC programme is just some HAB RTTY they've ripped from one of our recordings on YouTube
[12:19] <fsphil> it sounded too clean
[12:19] <jgrahamc> Yes, Lorenz was an add on to standard RTTY machines that just encrypted the baudot code before it was transmitted
[12:20] <jgrahamc> It was all 50 baud
[12:20] <fsphil> also, mechanical rtty is a pretty neat trick
[12:20] <costyn> there was some RTTY on Richrad Hammond's Journey to the center of the planet too, in episode 2
[12:20] <fsphil> costyn, I tried that
[12:21] <fsphil> there was some text but nothing that made sense
[12:21] <costyn> fsphil: ah ok :)
[12:21] <fsphil> though I could have had the wrong mode setup
[12:22] <jgrahamc> Actually there was a lot of electronics in these devices. The mechanical part was the cipher generation, but even that was only mechanical in that the rotors turned creating different circuits.
[12:24] <jgrahamc> However, it's got to be worth a go at decoding what was in the show last night. There was a bunch of RTTY right at the beginning.
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[12:25] <fsphil> it cropped up in a few places
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[12:28] <costyn> i'd heard it before, but before this whole HAB thingy I'd never realized it was rtty
[12:29] <fsphil> yea, I always used to wonder at the strange blips and beeps on shortwave radios
[12:29] <costyn> as a kid I used to find and listen to RTTY on short-wave ... i had no idea what it was
[12:29] <costyn> fsphil: ;)
[12:30] <jgrahamc> Also there was high-speed CW as well on SW
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[12:32] <fsphil> I've heard of people doing high speed CW to send messages via meteor bounce
[12:32] <fsphil> recording it to tape, and playing it back really fast
[12:33] <fsphil> hmm.. it doesn't show up like rtty on the waterfall
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[12:34] <jgrahamc> fsphil: you have an audio file of the RTTY from the BBC programme?
[12:34] <fsphil> playing iplayer in the background
[12:34] <fsphil> sound card is recording from itself (mix)
[12:35] <jgrahamc> Any chance you can email me a sound file of the RTTY bit for me to play with?
[12:36] <fsphil> yea
[12:37] <jgrahamc> jgc@jgc,org
[12:39] <fsphil> you handle a .7z file?
[12:40] <jgrahamc> Yes
[12:41] <fsphil> en route
[12:41] <jgrahamc> Thanks
[12:42] <fsphil> ah, found the other rtty line -- it's > 3khz so you have to increase the size of the waterfall in fldigi
[12:42] <jgrahamc> Cool
[12:43] <jgrahamc> Now, does it decode?
[12:43] <fsphil> shift is 450hz exactly
[12:43] <fsphil> nothing so far. I'll play with the settings a bit
[12:44] <fsphil> PPOPOR PPUGOPOR PPUPOY PPRPOW ETOPOW PPTPOR PPQPOTV
[12:45] <costyn> hehe
[12:45] <jgrahamc> Then it's possible that it's a real Lorenz recording. I have some recollection that that was the standard shift on those machines.
[12:45] <jgrahamc> It may be slightly slower than 50 baud.
[12:45] <fsphil> 45005 PTPOQ OO
[12:46] <fsphil> baudot is giving more text, so that makes sense
[12:46] <russss> that's an improbably large amount of Ps
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[12:46] <fsphil> 50 baud seems to be having the most success too
[12:48] <fsphil> hehe, interesting the word length of those above is the same as the example they had on the show
[12:48] <fsphil> LONDON and OXFORD
[12:49] <jgrahamc> Real Lorenz transmission: http://www.eclipse.net/~dhamer/images/sz42.wav
[12:49] <jgrahamc> Does that decode?
[12:50] <fsphil> slow server, still downloading
[12:51] <fsphil> I think that email to you bounced
[12:51] <fsphil> I'll upload the file somewhere
[12:51] <jgrahamc> OK
[12:52] <fsphil> 79% of a 108k file :)
[12:53] <jgrahamc> Not sure what settings you've got but it should be 5 bits (baudot code) with a single start bit.
[12:53] <fsphil> 88%
[12:53] <jgrahamc> (or stop bit, basically a bit between them)
[12:54] <fsphil> baudot, 50 baud, 450 hz shift, 1 stop bit, no parity
[12:54] <fsphil> that decodes the most characters, with regular spaces that look like words
[12:54] <fsphil> one of the blocks is a group of numbers too
[12:55] <fsphil> 45005 PTPOQ
[12:55] <fsphil> I'm really struggling to get this sz42.wav file
[12:55] <fsphil> can you email me it? phil@sanslogic co uk
[12:56] <fsphil> http://www.sanslogic.co.uk/files/codebreakers-rtty-1.7z
[12:56] <fsphil> that's the rtty from the very beginning of the show
[12:56] <fsphil> there's a lot more I'll grab later
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[13:01] <jgrahamc> Bloody browser died.
[13:01] <jgrahamc> Where were we?
[13:01] <fsphil> haha
[13:01] <fsphil> code-breakers sample: http://www.sanslogic.co.uk/files/codebreakers-rtty-1.7z
[13:01] <fsphil> from the very beginning
[13:01] <fsphil> there's loads more in the show
[13:02] <fsphil> sz42.wav I got eventually, it looks a bit dodgy on the waterfall, 7 lines
[13:03] Action: SpeedEvil ponders the construction of a hedgecutter UAV.
[13:03] <SpeedEvil> Razor sharp wing, 200MPH jet engine.
[13:03] <SpeedEvil> What could go wrong?
[13:04] <jgrahamc> Can you repaste the decode you got?
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[13:07] <fsphil> AIUDUIRO PPOPORPPUGOPOR PPUPOY PPRPOW ETOPOW PPTPOR PPQPOTV
[13:07] <fsphil> 45005 PTPOQ OO
[13:07] <jgrahamc> Thanks
[13:07] <fsphil> there was a blank line between tem
[13:07] <fsphil> them*
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[13:11] <fsphil> the longer word sometimes decodes with a space in it. I think the music is interfering a bit
[13:15] <fsphil> I guess what you'd need to find is the same message repeated twice :)
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[13:23] <jgrahamc> Hmm. Not sure I'm going to get anywhere with this. FLDIGI seems to be hanging when I load the WAV
[13:24] <daveake> Check the format of the wav file it creates itself when you ask it to record the audio. Maybe it can only handle that bit rate or something.
[13:26] <jgrahamc> This is the same wav that fsphil was using so must be something on my machine
[13:26] <daveake> ah
[13:29] <jgrahamc> BTW fsphil The reason the s42.wav looks weird is that the original RTTY used six separate tones.
[13:37] <GW8RAK> Sorry to interrupt, but just been asked if there is a launch this weekend? Does anyone know?
[13:37] <GW8RAK> New listener
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[13:51] <DiJuMx> I'm thinking of trying some HABing.....can anyone give the average cost of a single flight?
[13:52] <jgrahamc> Consistently decodes to DUIRO PPOPORPPUGOPOR PPUPOY PPRPOW ETOPOW PPTPOR PPQPOTV 45005 PTPOQ OORZ
[13:54] <Zuph> DiJuMx: Anywhere from $200 to $2000, depending on what you're trying to do, and how much stuff/knowledge you already have.
[13:56] <DiJuMx> I think I may be putting it off for a while then :D.
[13:56] <Zuph> Heh, don't be discouraged too much. Most flights are towards the low end of that scale.
[13:57] <Zuph> That said, if you're coming into it with no radio/electronics experience at all, you'll need to buy some tools and equipment that can be pricey. These aren't just useful for HAB, though.
[13:57] <Zuph> What are you trying to do/what got you interested?
[13:58] <daveake> Average flight might cost £60 in Helium, £55 for the balloon, and say £50 in petrol/gas to retrieve. So those are the per-flight costs assuming you don't lose the payload, for example [cough] in the sea [cough].
[13:58] <jonsowman> lol
[13:59] <DiJuMx> What got me interested was the Apex ALPHA flight, and also some ideas I had floating around for a final year project at University. My idea's revolved around some kind of Glider/UAV flight. Using the balloon to get it up there, and upon release use it's own power......
[14:00] <daveake> On top of that you need the payload itself, which depends on what you want to fly. Say £30 for a camera, £20-£50 for a video recorder, £20 for radio transmitter if your're going the NTX2 route, £15 for an Arduino computer, £40-£60 for a GPS receiver. Plus batteries, polystyrene, tape etc. So around £200.
[14:00] <Zuph> DiJuMx: There are a few guys here that have done glider flights. They aren't easy!
[14:00] <daveake> And the radio route means you also need a receiver - £100 on ebay, magmount for the car £20, Yagi £30
[14:01] <DiJuMx> I've heard about those, where they are taken up tail first....my idea was along the lines of keeping the wings/tail folded inside and unfolding on descent, pulling the remains of the balloon in via a winch of some kind
[14:02] <Zuph> DiJuMx: Complicated! Just lose the balloon entirely! Cut the glider away, and be done with it!
[14:03] <daveake> And mind that the wings are strong enough otherwise you might find they fold in an unintentional way ....
[14:04] <SamSilver_> weight and balance will be hard with out knowing how much balloon weighs when you winch it in
[14:04] <Zuph> Stuff behaves oddly up there. You've got a lot less air, and it's very cold. There are also gov't regs on UAVs. Others can speak more to UK specific laws.
[14:05] <Zuph> And if it's university funded, it can be tough to get the project underwritten, even when it's just a camera and some batteries going up. Insurance can be a sticky subject.
[14:05] <fsphil> jgrahamc, that wav file can't be loaded into fldigi directly
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[14:06] <fsphil> fldigi needs it to be 8000hz and mono
[14:07] <jgrahamc> Yeah, I got around it and got the same decode as you
[14:08] <jgrahamc> One thing I wonder is whether this is actually not letters, if it was in figure shift mode then the Ps are 0s and it makes a lot more sense
[14:09] <fsphil> it does
[14:10] <fsphil> the second line begins with a number and switches back to letters
[14:10] <DiJuMx> Yeah, I'll have a look into what it is I actually want to achieve. Thanks for the info Zuph.
[14:10] <fsphil> what would the numbers be if it wasn't in shift mode
[14:10] <fsphil> might be a word
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[14:10] <Zuph> DiJuMx: No problem! Keep in mind, the APEX guys flew a pretty simple flight, just a super-light flight computer with GPS and transmitter, plus balloon.
[14:11] <jgrahamc> RPTTP
[14:11] <fsphil> or not
[14:11] <Zuph> DiJuMx: For your first flight, you should probably look towards something simple. Also, depending on where you're located, there might be some guys near you that are already launching balloons.
[14:11] <fsphil> I'll grab the other rtty samples later when I get home
[14:12] <fsphil> there might be something more sensible in those
[14:12] <Zuph> It would be massively educational to hook up with any nearby HABers.
[14:12] <fsphil> if the shift was in the wrong mode, I'd expect more symobls
[14:12] <fsphil> symbols
[14:12] <DiJuMx> I'll have a look into it.
[14:13] <Zuph> DiJuMx: Right-o. Feel free to stick around, see what's going on, and ask questions.
[14:14] <jgrahamc> $7849 009094007&9094 007096 004092 359092 005094 001095; RTPPT 05091 994"
[14:15] <fsphil> ooh
[14:16] <jgrahamc> But there are quite a few possibilities.
[14:16] <jgrahamc> Could be that the two tones are reversed so all the ones need to be zeroes and vv.
[14:17] <jgrahamc> Or could be that we are going LSB and it should be MSB
[14:17] <fsphil> tried that
[14:17] <fsphil> the RV button swaps how fldigi decodes it
[14:17] <jgrahamc> Good to know
[14:18] <fsphil> it's possible it's just some random file the sound engineer found on his laptop :)
[14:18] <jgrahamc> Could be
[14:18] <jgrahamc> But six digits blocks. Could those be map grid references?
[14:19] <fsphil> although the 450hz shift, baudot and 50 baud are all a bit too specific
[14:20] <jgrahamc> I agree. It's much too close to real RTTY (without being 6 tone)
[14:20] <eroomde> Dan-K2VOL: did I ever show you this?
[14:20] <eroomde> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uK80MXHQ5hA
[14:20] <fsphil> real rtty only has 2 tones though?
[14:20] <daveake> So it wasn't STRICTLYISSHIT then :p
[14:20] <fsphil> any more and its MFSK
[14:20] <eroomde> it's a prototype zero pressure balloon we built a couple (infact probs more now) years ago
[14:21] <eroomde> it used the construction you desribed
[14:21] <eroomde> butted joints with re-inforcement tape top and bottom
[14:21] <eroomde> be built a whole rig to do gore cutting and continuous welding
[14:21] <eroomde> with rollers at either end
[14:21] <eroomde> it would be awesome to un mothball it to try and make some SP balloons
[14:22] <jgrahamc> Actually way back on the Lorenz teleprinter code they used 6 tones
[14:22] <jgrahamc> This was done for redundancy
[14:22] <Zuph> eroomde: Got any documentation for that rig?
[14:23] <jonsowman> daveake: i remember that
[14:23] <daveake> If you google for "top gear morse code" you'll see all of them
[14:23] <jonsowman> wasn't there one about cheese
[14:23] <daveake> ILIKECHEESE
[14:23] <jonsowman> lol
[14:23] <eroomde> Zuph: hrm
[14:23] <eroomde> we built it in like 6 days
[14:24] <eroomde> and tried it out a few times
[14:24] <Zuph> heh
[14:24] <eroomde> then had to deconstruct it quickly as the lab it was in was being used for something else
[14:24] <Zuph> Okay, how about pictures/video of it? :-p
[14:24] <GW8RAK> jgrahamc if you are getting 6 character blocks, encrypted messages are usually in blocks of 5 IIRC
[14:24] <eroomde> so... if we were to un mothball it we'd obviously start documenting the hell out of it
[14:24] <Zuph> BTW, how did those ZP balloons go?
[14:24] <eroomde> never flew any
[14:24] <jgrahamc> Yes, and also Lorenz sent without sending in blocks because it was entirely machine to machine
[14:24] <Zuph> darn
[14:24] <eroomde> realised we could do what we wanted to do with latex
[14:24] <eroomde> and then the mothballing happened
[14:25] <eroomde> would love to get it fired up again
[14:25] <Zuph> Have any closer imagery of the seams?
[14:25] <GW8RAK> Good point
[14:25] <jonsowman> i'd like to have a go at ZPs
[14:25] <jonsowman> that welding head is still in the lab iirc
[14:25] <eroomde> yes
[14:25] <eroomde> might try and get it out and somewhere else
[14:25] <eroomde> but... will talk to you about that offline
[14:26] <jonsowman> plus a tonne of the polythene (?) sheet
[14:26] <jonsowman> ok cool
[14:26] <jonsowman> are you coming to EARS on the 6th eroomde?
[14:26] <eroomde> Zuph: http://www.flickr.com/photos/cuspaceflight/3740984274/in/set-72157621628336895/
[14:26] <eroomde> yes I am
[14:26] <jonsowman> cool
[14:26] <jonsowman> will see you there then
[14:26] <eroomde> wow 4 years ago
[14:27] <eroomde> i think it's retirement time
[14:27] <eroomde> Zuph: that was made with a piecewise nibbler
[14:27] <eroomde> the continuous welded seams are much nicer
[14:27] <Zuph> eroomde: Those look really good. Do any stress/pressure testing on the seams?
[14:27] <eroomde> peacewise nibbling is far too labour intensive and it's too easy to build in stress concentrations
[14:27] <Zuph> Yeah
[14:28] <Zuph> Our ZPs are sort of build that way, with a big bar sealer.
[14:28] <eroomde> we put a lot of effort into making that one in the video an optimal shape
[14:28] <Zuph> The seals overlap, and form obviously defficient stress points.
[14:28] <Dan-K2VOL> zuph actually the caviezel ones are built with the roller/belt method
[14:28] <eroomde> but actually it's so much work it would be better to try and get away with tetroons like you use
[14:28] <Dan-K2VOL> eroomde will have to look at it after work
[14:29] <Zuph> Dan-K2VOL: Well, he did a crappy job then, since there are those crummy overlaps.
[14:29] <eroomde> Dan-K2VOL: as always
[14:29] <eroomde> why no vids at work?
[14:29] <Dan-K2VOL> cause at my work all our computer screens face the boss :-)
[14:30] <eroomde> http://www.flickr.com/photos/cuspaceflight/3740196975/in/set-72157621628336895
[14:30] <eroomde> observe the slight stress concentrations
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[14:30] <eroomde> very tough to even out the tension when doing 50cm welds at a time
[14:30] <Dan-K2VOL> hmm interesting
[14:30] <Zuph> Aye. That looks nicer than our ZP :-p
[14:31] <eroomde> i wanted to talk to you about this in the skype Q&A at the conf but i think it would have gotten too nerdy too quickly
[14:31] <Dan-K2VOL> they're very labor intesive
[14:31] <eroomde> but i'd be very interested to share out experiences and work with you to get flying SP prototypes
[14:31] <Dan-K2VOL> lol next time, I think it should be much more nerdy!
[14:31] <Dan-K2VOL> definitely
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[14:32] <eroomde> http://www.flickr.com/photos/cuspaceflight/3740982370/in/set-72157621628336895
[14:32] <eroomde> the bodges welding rig
[14:32] <eroomde> so you can see a roll of taps above and below
[14:32] <eroomde> which sandwich the button together polythene sheets
[14:32] <eroomde> butted*
[14:33] <eroomde> gosh i sound drunk - I must work on my typing accuracy
[14:34] <eroomde> we pre-cut the gores and qwelded them together like so: http://www.flickr.com/photos/cuspaceflight/3740188361/in/set-72157621628336895
[14:35] <eroomde> Zuph: I can only find this very early, far-from-complete picture of the automatic welder: http://www.flickr.com/photos/cuspaceflight/3742407042/in/set-72157621632629963/
[14:35] <Dan-K2VOL> interesting. I watched Aerostar doing it from distance, and they had a machine that rolled down the edge of a very long table.
[14:35] <eroomde> yes I saw that too
[14:35] <eroomde> you need long tables to do that
[14:35] <eroomde> which we don;t have
[14:35] <eroomde> hence the picture above
[14:35] <Dan-K2VOL> They wouldn't let me get close enough to see if they were doing fin seams or something else
[14:35] <eroomde> from one roller to another, via a continuous welder
[14:35] <eroomde> the welder is not installed in thatpic butit sits on the higher middle table
[14:35] <Dan-K2VOL> ahh interesting
[14:36] <Zuph> That's quite the rig
[14:36] <Zuph> I like it.
[14:36] <eroomde> in the black bin-liner to the right of ian's foot is the 3km rolls of linearised ultra high molecular weight polyethylene we picked up from a scrapped government ZP project
[14:36] <eroomde> we got a few of them
[14:36] <Dan-K2VOL> very good find
[14:37] <eroomde> unfortunately we lost that lab
[14:37] <eroomde> it was great for the summer we had it
[14:37] <Dan-K2VOL> I just put up a video of a tetroon we built last night
[14:37] <eroomde> there was an autoclave there too which let us build our CFRP rockets
[14:37] <eroomde> Dan-K2VOL: link me up
[14:38] <Zuph> Heh, sort of tetroon :-p
[14:38] <Dan-K2VOL> will in a minute
[14:38] <Dan-K2VOL> just for fun
[14:38] <Dan-K2VOL> we had some of the balloon foil that is used to make party balloons, in long sheets
[14:39] <Dan-K2VOL> Used a hot-air soldering station to seal it into a tube, then sealed the tube ends 90 degrees apart
[14:39] <Dan-K2VOL> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gc_wJjbjFFY
[14:39] <Dan-K2VOL> tiny thing
[14:39] <Dan-K2VOL> but made in about 5 minutes
[14:40] <Zuph> I saw them getting out the foil and hot air station, turned my back, and the next thing I know, Dan was telling me that I missed the launch :-p
[14:40] <eroomde> how interesting
[14:41] <eroomde> so hot air works well?
[14:41] <Dan-K2VOL> heh it wasn't really meant to fly, but I realised that there was a infact a hole in one corner of the seam, so I squirted some helium in and tossed it out in the parking lot
[14:41] <Dan-K2VOL> lol, I wouldn't take much scientific knowledge from this attempt
[14:41] <Dan-K2VOL> but it worked ok, had to keep tapping the seam under the hot air stream with a rubberized tool handle to seal it to the other side
[14:42] <eroomde> ok
[14:42] <eroomde> our continuous seam welder has been pretty reliable
[14:43] <Dan-K2VOL> the bar sealer or something else?
[14:43] <eroomde> thought it advises us in finest Engrish to 'adopt butter regularly for happy time'
[14:43] <Dan-K2VOL> hahahah
[14:43] <eroomde> the continuous roller
[14:43] <Dan-K2VOL> I don't think I saw that one, that would be ideal
[14:44] <Dan-K2VOL> well, not ideal, but better
[14:45] <Dan-K2VOL> the fin seals are not good for stress
[14:45] <eroomde> fin seals?
[14:45] <eroomde> oh like the tetroons?
[14:45] <eroomde> aligning edges
[14:45] <Dan-K2VOL> yeah, not sure what the proper name is
[14:46] <eroomde> me neither
[14:46] <eroomde> did you take a look at the pellegrino paper?
[14:46] <Dan-K2VOL> the food industry calls it a fin seal, the seal that goes down the back of crisp bags and crackers
[14:46] <eroomde> yeah
[14:46] <Dan-K2VOL> which one was that, regarding the mars balloon work?
[14:46] <eroomde> we're on the same page
[14:46] <eroomde> http://www.pellegrino.caltech.edu/PUBLICATIONS/Shape%20optimization%20of%20pumpkin%20balloons%202007.pdf
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[14:47] <eroomde> very very interesting paper
[14:47] <Dan-K2VOL> oh no, thanks for the relink, I sometimes lose the things between work and home, I"m going to put it in mendeley now
[14:48] <eroomde> full of sutff i had forgotton from 2nd year structural mechanics
[14:48] <Dan-K2VOL> however, I've seen an evaluation that the pumpkin is not the optimal shape for small superpressures
[14:48] <eroomde> von Mises failer criterion etc
[14:48] <Dan-K2VOL> for small volumes
[14:48] <eroomde> Dan-K2VOL: yes, read the paper
[14:48] <eroomde> it concludes exactly the same thing
[14:48] <Dan-K2VOL> :-) will definitely do tonight
[14:48] <eroomde> via the maths it derives
[14:48] <Dan-K2VOL> ah yes there it is
[14:48] <eroomde> spherical is optimum for ~16 gore, <10m dia
[14:49] <eroomde> it all seems to fall out nicely from the model they present
[14:49] <Dan-K2VOL> interesting, Lally did his GHOST flights in the 1960s with 2-3m ~20 gore spheres
[14:51] <Dan-K2VOL> nice to see more analysis on the modern papers
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[14:59] <Zuph> I am incredibly pleased with how easy this Stellaris CM3 has been to play around with. Granded, I haven't been doing anything too difficult, but it's been easy through and through.
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[15:07] <Dan-K2VOL> nice
[15:08] <Zuph> Really, quite a difference from the MSP430 chips.
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[15:21] <fsphil> totally ot : anyone used the new small LED micro projectors? any good?
[15:29] <eroomde> fsphil: about 2 years ago
[15:29] <eroomde> was crap
[15:29] <eroomde> but i suspect they've moved on a lot since then
[15:31] <fsphil> yea, they used to be very dim
[15:31] <fsphil> they're a lot cheaper now too
[15:33] <stilldavid> So I got sick of editing
[15:33] <stilldavid> so this is it:
[15:33] <stilldavid> http://vimeo.com/31126399
[15:40] <SpeedEvil> They have lasers now!
[15:41] <eroomde> bloody american weather
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[15:43] <eroomde> we really must sort out HAB parachutes
[15:43] <eroomde> there is really no reason payloads need to spin aroundas they descend
[15:48] <Upu> you're the man for the job
[15:48] <Upu> we need a hab-a-chute
[15:48] <eroomde> yeah
[15:48] Action: Upu gets his coat
[15:48] <Upu> the spin came in useful for my pictures actually
[15:49] <eroomde> it's not a really a big deal i suppose but it makes vids poo and can make reception very difficult as it fades in and out at a couple of hertz
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[15:49] <SpeedEvil> Controlled spin.
[15:49] <SpeedEvil> Say a few revs a minute tops.
[15:49] <SpeedEvil> ~1Hz, as some have reached isn't useful.
[15:49] <DiJuMx> Tried multiple chutes?
[15:49] <eroomde> complicated
[15:49] <eroomde> and riskier
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[15:50] <DiJuMx> I was thinking like the three on the back of the space shuttles......
[15:50] <eroomde> do the space shuttles have three chutes?
[15:50] <eroomde> i thought it was just one
[15:50] <SpeedEvil> yes
[15:50] <eroomde> the SRBs have 3
[15:50] <SpeedEvil> Or they did
[15:50] <NigeyS> shuttle has 2 ?
[15:50] <SpeedEvil> Maybe that was the apollo drogues I was thinking of.
[15:50] <eroomde> i think you are thinking od that
[15:50] <eroomde> srb has 3
[15:51] <stilldavid> you can see I attached carbon fiber kite rods on this one
[15:51] <eroomde> for redundancy
[15:51] <eroomde> shuttle has one aerobrake chute
[15:51] <stilldavid> but they broke off before the descent
[15:51] <eroomde> sorry, ebing vague
[15:51] <eroomde> the *orbiter* has one brake chute
[15:51] <Upu> http://galaxywire.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/srb_parachute.jpg
[15:51] <eroomde> but triple chutes are complicated
[15:51] <eroomde> they're deployed very carefully
[15:51] <eroomde> usually with reefing and pilot chutes
[15:52] <eroomde> which is fine and well
[15:52] <eroomde> but maybe more faff than habbers want to deal with
[15:52] <Upu> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/Apollo_15_descends_to_splashdown.jpg
[15:52] <Upu> thats why you need redundancy
[15:52] <eroomde> ah no
[15:52] <eroomde> well yes
[15:52] <eroomde> that's why you need testing
[15:52] <eroomde> that parachute on 15 didn't fail, it was murdered
[15:52] <eroomde> they did a dump of reaction control systm hypergolics from the descent module
[15:53] <eroomde> and a blob of burning hydrazine
[15:53] <eroomde> flew into the canopy
[15:53] <eroomde> just not enough end to end tests
[15:53] <eroomde> one must do end-to-end tests
[15:53] <eroomde> stop me when you've heard this before
[15:55] <eroomde> but it does add a lot of complexity and mass to hab design. deploying 3 needs careful sequencing
[15:55] <eroomde> I'd just use one well designed chute. for 3 chutes they'd each have to be well designed and characterised anyway
[15:56] <SpeedEvil> The bigger problem is probably the balloon not cleanly seperating.
[15:58] <eroomde> if you have some tether line collapsing onto the canopy, that'll certainly not help stability
[15:58] <SpeedEvil> Tether line, and huge chunks of balloon
[15:58] <Dan-K2VOL> but is the parachute really that much of a problem in habbing? I mean, statistically, they seem to work often enough
[15:58] <SpeedEvil> Work, but could be better.
[15:59] <SpeedEvil> Descent rates are often screwed by balloon sep issues.
[15:59] <eroomde> well, we dismiss the descent as being a non-useful time
[15:59] <Dan-K2VOL> so it's a question of if it's worth it to make it better
[15:59] <eroomde> but there's no really good reason for that
[15:59] <eroomde> we could do interesting things during the descent
[15:59] <SpeedEvil> And the cameras are mostly useless as they whizz around at stupid rates often
[15:59] <eroomde> get more bang per flight hour
[15:59] <stilldavid> I didn't realize how much the balloon shoots down after burst
[15:59] <stilldavid> it's under a lot of pressure, I guess
[15:59] <SpeedEvil> And it makes tracking harder due to spinning.
[16:00] <eroomde> yes we've definitely observed harder tracking during to fading at the spin freq
[16:00] <eroomde> and that's when tracking is the most crucial, if it's crucial at all
[16:00] <Dan-K2VOL> the long pole method is an easy way to deter the spinning, but it does raise ground danger
[16:00] <eroomde> horrible bodge
[16:00] <eroomde> just have a properly designed chute and the problem goes away
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[16:01] <eroomde> and a clean means of separation from the balloon line too
[16:01] <Dan-K2VOL> well that's easy if you want to fly a cutdown
[16:01] <eroomde> super reliable legal cutdowns would be good too
[16:01] <Dan-K2VOL> but what characteristics are you wanting to see from a properly designed chute
[16:02] <eroomde> lower oscillation and lower spinning rates
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[16:02] <Dan-K2VOL> for all altitudes?
[16:02] <eroomde> yup
[16:02] <Dan-K2VOL> can one static chute design do that at 1km and at 36km?
[16:03] <eroomde> yup
[16:03] <Dan-K2VOL> no reefing, deployment or any of that articulation?
[16:03] <eroomde> might not be optimised for both but it'd be a darn sight better than what we have now
[16:03] <eroomde> reefing doesn't need to come into it
[16:03] <eroomde> that's designed to reduce peak forces
[16:04] <eroomde> serves no other purpose and HABs don't have high forces
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[16:04] <number10> are you designing a new parachut for HAB ed?
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[16:04] <eroomde> and pre-deployed simplifies things too
[16:04] <eroomde> and of course lowers the opening forces as a side effect
[16:04] <Dan-K2VOL> so are we talking about slots?
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[16:04] <eroomde> you're already at 'lines taught' at the point of deployment, which is the sole job of a deployment system
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[16:05] <eroomde> yes stable parachutes need porosity
[16:05] <SpeedEvil> A design that fell ballistically to 500m, and then deployed a large chute would make tracking easier.
[16:05] <eroomde> about 22% geometric porosity (so ignoring material porosity) would work, but you also need to consider the distribution of that porosity
[16:05] <Dan-K2VOL> I know the Spherachutes lady would probably be willing to take improvement suggestions that aren't too dificult to assemble
[16:05] <eroomde> SpeedEvil: if you're deploying, suddenly every other bit of hardwer has a much harder job
[16:05] <SpeedEvil> And yes.
[16:06] <eroomde> you need a flight computer that will definitely work
[16:06] <SpeedEvil> It's a silly idea from most perspectives.
[16:06] <eroomde> and well tested software that can detect desceding and deploy at the right time
[16:06] <eroomde> Dan-K2VOL: the ones we flew for our parachute testing were wonderful
[16:06] <eroomde> but probably too complicated to make to be cheap
[16:07] <eroomde> i might try and come up with a design
[16:07] <eroomde> minimise the number of lines and gores to say 12, if one can get away with that
[16:07] <eroomde> might be pushing it
[16:07] <Dan-K2VOL> as far as basic design to be modified, how does the spherachutes look?
[16:07] <eroomde> and get the right porosity distribution
[16:07] <eroomde> not seen them
[16:08] <eroomde> web whore
[16:08] <eroomde> yeah ok
[16:08] <eroomde> so their porosity is miles too low
[16:08] <Dan-K2VOL> they are spherical gores with a single spill-hole
[16:08] <eroomde> looking at that top pic
[16:08] <Dan-K2VOL> haha
[16:09] <eroomde> they will have a high drag for the mass
[16:09] <eroomde> which might be fine for rocketry
[16:09] <Dan-K2VOL> (and for landing impact speed?)
[16:09] <eroomde> but they will have high opening forces 9don't care for hab) and either large glide angles or coning, dpeneding on a bunch of things like altitude
[16:10] <eroomde> glides angles are bad as that just means more drift
[16:10] <eroomde> and they honestly can be as high as 1:1
[16:10] <eroomde> so 1:1 air relative
[16:10] <Dan-K2VOL> We have one sitting idle that I can mail to you if you'd like to take a try at modding it
[16:10] <eroomde> might be fun yes
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[16:10] <eroomde> well, for the price of postage for you i could just buy one
[16:11] <Dan-K2VOL> lol
[16:11] <eroomde> lol steve imports them
[16:11] <eroomde> ok
[16:11] <eroomde> i'll just borrow one off him
[16:11] <Dan-K2VOL> cool
[16:12] <Dan-K2VOL> reducing drag will increase speed though won't it?
[16:12] <SpeedEvil> Why aren't glide angles zero?
[16:12] <eroomde> yup
[16:13] <SpeedEvil> If the chute is level
[16:13] <SpeedEvil> Is it that it may stabilise into a non-level condition?
[16:13] <eroomde> because the air has to get out somehow
[16:13] <eroomde> it doesn't all come through the spill hole
[16:13] <Dan-K2VOL> it wobbles
[16:13] <eroomde> so in theory it all spills out evenly around the mough
[16:14] <eroomde> in reality the more stable solution is for it to be slight disturned into establishing a steady glide
[16:14] <eroomde> around the mouth*
[16:14] <Dan-K2VOL> may need to consider what the maximum acceptable ground impact speed can be
[16:14] <eroomde> yes that's a design constrint
[16:14] <eroomde> but of course all these rocket ones are hugely over engineered for hab forces
[16:14] <eroomde> so you can loose a lot of mass in a just-for-hab design
[16:16] <Dan-K2VOL> Wouldn't the rocket of the same mass as a balloon payload experience less forces if it deploys it at the parabolic apex going straight up?
[16:16] <eroomde> yup
[16:16] <eroomde> but you don't want to deploy with zero dynamic pressure
[16:16] <eroomde> unless you like to live dangerously
[16:16] <Dan-K2VOL> than the balloon payload decelerating down from 300kph thin-air freefall?
[16:17] <SamSilver_> would it have a "hoop" to hold the lines apart, some folk use a bamboo ring or would it have a single point attachment?
[16:17] <eroomde> yep that can help if you want
[16:17] <eroomde> Dan-K2VOL: if you do the sums on balloons payloads, it barely ever gets above equilibrium
[16:17] <eroomde> the peak force, that is
[16:18] <eroomde> whereas the peak force on a deploying parachute can be ~1.5x the equilibrium force at a certain speed
[16:18] <Dan-K2VOL> what about the model rockets?
[16:18] <Dan-K2VOL> ahh
[16:18] <eroomde> and rockets rarely manage to deploy right at apoggee
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[16:18] <eroomde> they ofetn have a bit of q at deployment time
[16:18] <eroomde> which is actually a good thing really
[16:19] <eroomde> parachutes are complicated aerodynamic decelerators that you are wanting to self-assemble in the air in flight
[16:19] <eroomde> you want a bit of pressure to reduce the randomness slightly
[16:20] <eroomde> get the lines taught before the mouth begins to open and so on
[16:21] <eroomde> it's relative velocities between the parachute and the forebody that causes the dreaded 'zippers' in high power rockets.
[16:22] <SpeedEvil> As it unfolds nicely, and then comes to the end of the line.
[16:22] <SpeedEvil> When bad things happen.
[16:22] <eroomde> and that's a result of the parachute inflating before all its lines are taught, so the forebody (rocket) suddenly yanks on a deployed parachute has has entrained a whole load of air and so isn't willing to be accelerated by the forebody
[16:25] <eroomde> there might be room for a big blog post of the rudiments of parachutes and deployment
[16:27] <Zuph> I would be interested in that, eroomde.
[16:27] <SamSilver_> me 2
[16:27] <eroomde> for a signal processing grad, i've found fabric engineering quite interesting
[16:28] <Dan-K2VOL> :-)
[16:28] <eroomde> ok i'll write something
[16:28] <eroomde> christen a blog
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[17:11] Nick change: SamSilver_ -> SamSilver
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[17:18] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[17:24] <Zuph> afternoon, Lunar_Lander
[17:24] <Zuph> How's it going?
[17:24] fsphil-laptop (~phil@2001:8b0:34:1:219:d2ff:fe09:a6b9) joined #highaltitude.
[17:30] <Lunar_Lander> I'm OK thanks
[17:30] <Lunar_Lander> and you?
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[17:36] <Dan-K2VOL> Hi Lunar_Lander
[17:37] <Dan-K2VOL> lunar_Lander, check out a foil balloon tetroon we made last night just for fun (just hacked it together to see how hard it was) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gc_wJjbjFFY
[17:37] <fsphil-laptop> tetroons are funky
[17:39] <Lunar_Lander> YAY!
[17:39] <Lunar_Lander> the video shows how good they are to be lagrangian markers for air movements
[17:41] <Lunar_Lander> the SpeedBall2 video is good too
[17:41] <Lunar_Lander> but the ballast system is too slow I think
[17:44] <Zuph> It was just for indoor use. It was a great demo. Especially in the museum, with air currents and all sorts of other junk.
[17:44] <SpeedEvil> Dan-K2VOL: actual foil?
[17:46] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[17:46] <Lunar_Lander> it looks cool Zuph :)
[17:47] <Dan-K2VOL> SpeedEvil, it's literally made from a roll of the foil balloon material that they make the balloons you guys have been flying out of
[17:47] <Dan-K2VOL> the silly cartoon picture is already on the tetroon :-P
[17:48] <SpeedEvil> Ah
[17:48] <SpeedEvil> I was meaning actual foil made of metal
[17:48] <SpeedEvil> I've been pondering that for a while.
[17:48] <SpeedEvil> It's not clearly insane
[17:48] <SpeedEvil> Kitchen foil is available in largish rolls, quite cheap.
[17:49] <SpeedEvil> And Al isn't _that_ dense, and it's quite thin for the thin stuff.
[17:49] <SpeedEvil> The fun issue is fatigue
[17:52] <Zuph> Lunar_Lander: It was a lot of fun. Kids loved watching the balloon go up and down :)
[17:52] <Lunar_Lander> yeag :)!
[17:52] <Lunar_Lander> *yeah
[17:52] <Lunar_Lander> and now dinner time :)
[17:53] <fsphil-laptop> Dan-K2VOL, you mentioned in the talk about the best way to hang a payload is looping over the balloon. I'm guessing the loops are fixed at the very top?
[17:54] <fsphil-laptop> and would this apply to latex balloons too?
[17:56] <SpeedEvil> For latex, the neck is designed for it.
[17:56] <SpeedEvil> So, no.
[17:58] <fsphil-laptop> true.. was wondering if some kind of sock could be made to cover the balloon to protect it from the sun, and support the payload
[17:58] <SpeedEvil> Sunblock
[17:58] <fsphil-laptop> indeed :)
[17:58] <SpeedEvil> I suspect some brands might work
[17:59] <SpeedEvil> but most the oil will be a killer
[17:59] <SpeedEvil> It's a damn huge sock at altitude
[17:59] <fsphil-laptop> yea
[17:59] <fsphil-laptop> it would be too thin to be effective
[17:59] <Dan-K2VOL> fsphil-laptop the payload lines on the superpressures were not attached anywhere, they were loose loops that ran through a series of guides on the film
[17:59] <fsphil-laptop> aah there are guides
[18:00] <fsphil-laptop> I was wondering why they wouldn't slide off the side
[18:00] <Dan-K2VOL> just more film
[18:00] <Dan-K2VOL> in a small loop
[18:06] <fsphil-laptop> hehe: http://www.qualatexballoons.co.uk/products/Balloon_Shine-389-11.html
[18:07] <Dan-K2VOL> lol
[18:07] <fsphil-laptop> I think we'd need more than one bottle
[18:08] <Dan-K2VOL> their HyFloat stuff works well for leak-proofing superpressure mylar balloons against long duration leakage, it's PVA
[18:08] <Dan-K2VOL> but you have to put it inside
[18:08] <Dan-K2VOL> and it's like glue
[18:08] <fsphil-laptop> would need to be a homebrew balloon
[18:09] <Dan-K2VOL> the HyFloat is a liquid that you slosh around the inside to give it that gel coat that plugs pinholes
[18:09] <fsphil-laptop> aah
[18:09] <SpeedEvil> It'll be a silicone oil
[18:09] <SpeedEvil> the shine stuff
[18:09] <SpeedEvil> I suspect
[18:30] <Lunar_Lander> back
[18:36] <W0OTM> hi
[18:37] <Lunar_Lander> hi W0OTM
[18:37] <Lunar_Lander> how are you?
[18:37] <W0OTM> im really good
[18:37] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[18:38] <Lunar_Lander> I'm good too
[18:38] <Lunar_Lander> I think my balloon tracking equipment works
[18:38] <Lunar_Lander> and it seems like my balloons could be received in Denmark
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[18:47] <Lunar_Lander> W0OTM : can I ask something that I remembered from the iHAB-2 video?
[18:47] <Lunar_Lander> hello on4bds
[18:47] <on4bds> hi
[18:47] <W0OTM> Lunar_Lander: sure
[18:47] <W0OTM> iHAB-2 was a long time ago :)
[18:47] <on4bds> Just lurking today
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[18:49] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[18:49] <Lunar_Lander> you had some circuit boards that were made of copper
[18:49] <Lunar_Lander> and you said something about "Manhattan" when you showed them
[18:50] <Lunar_Lander> what was it?
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[18:51] <on4bds> Aha, something I can answer :-)
[18:51] <on4bds> It's a way of mounting electronic circuits
[18:52] <on4bds> Quite common among hams for HF circuitry
[18:52] <Zuph> Quite common among old fogies :-p
[18:52] <on4bds> You take a piece of copper clad board (unetched PCB), and use it as a ground plane.
[18:52] <on4bds> You solder all your components floating above this surface, any connection that goes to ground is soldered to the copper clad
[18:53] <SpeedEvil> Skilled constructors can make it look like the Manhatten project.
[18:53] <on4bds> The other connections are either made in the air, or by glueing little squares of PCB (island) on the clad
[18:53] <SpeedEvil> Others make it look like they've had too many cocktails.
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[18:54] <Dan-K2VOL> Works best with older large discrete components with long leads
[18:55] <on4bds> This is an example: http://tinyurl.com/6ffhvvs
[18:57] <Lunar_Lander> thanks on4bds :)
[18:57] <Lunar_Lander> and the others :)
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[19:00] <BrainDamage> if you don't want to glue on pieces of pcb for new pads, you can always scoure islands in the ground plane
[19:00] <BrainDamage> but it's not exactly ideal for higher freq
[19:01] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[19:01] <Lunar_Lander> hi Paradoxial
[19:08] <SpeedEvil> http://xkcd.com/ Genius
[19:09] <Lunar_Lander> definately
[19:09] <Lunar_Lander> the Ph.D. students in the labs have those posted to the doors
[19:09] <Lunar_Lander> the one with the circuit, the password security one
[19:09] <Lunar_Lander> xD
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[19:14] <Paradoxial> Hi Lundar
[19:14] <Paradoxial> Lunar*
[19:15] <Lunar_Lander> how are you?
[19:15] <Lunar_Lander> hi daveake
[19:17] <Upu> Randomskk are you about ?
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[19:19] <Randomskk> I am
[19:19] <Upu> hello
[19:19] <Upu> quick Q re ADF7012
[19:20] <Upu> any reason you choose 18p caps for the crystal over the 27pF ones in the example ?
[19:21] <Upu> and no2 whats with all these 0k resistors on the example ?
[19:24] <Matt_soton> i can only assume the 0ohm resistors are there in case u decide u want to add in a resistor
[19:24] <Upu> yeah
[19:26] <Matt_soton> also 18p caps seems standard over 27p, surely it just depends on your XL?
[19:26] <Upu> yeah just wondered if there was any reason for the change
[19:27] <Upu> 22pF seems normal for Arduino
[19:28] <Matt_soton> well 18 or 22, dont think theres much different
[19:28] <Matt_soton> 4pf could be the difference in input pin capacitance, its not much
[19:28] <Upu> well
[19:28] <Upu> I have a schematic
[19:28] <Upu> now the hard work begins!
[19:29] <Matt_soton> what did u want to use the IC for?
[19:29] <Matt_soton> just a prorammable ntx2?
[19:29] <Upu> yeah
[19:29] <Matt_soton> the micron part seems much simpler, although not programmable without a screw driver
[19:29] <Upu> can adjust shift, frequency and power via software
[19:30] <Matt_soton> it is nice, although im not too sure its really necessary in the air
[19:30] <Upu> also
[19:30] <Matt_soton> shift can always be altered by the input voltage
[19:30] <Matt_soton> temperature stable shift at least
[19:30] <Upu> £3.86 each
[19:31] <Matt_soton> the micron part is similar in price
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[19:31] <Matt_soton> im not sure if radiometrix will sponsor next years event at the rate we're going...
[19:31] <Upu> lol
[19:31] <Upu> no
[19:32] <Upu> be making our own modules by then
[19:32] <Upu> its an experiment
[19:32] <Matt_soton> well what i was going to try to do was get a I/Q modulator up and running...
[19:33] <jonsowman> Upu: CUSF have the ADF board in development
[19:33] <jonsowman> it'll be open sourced
[19:33] <Upu> its public now
[19:33] <jonsowman> yea
[19:33] <jonsowman> but not yet finished
[19:33] <jonsowman> well, the flight computer version isn't
[19:33] <Upu> Yeah I'm working on a Eagle version
[19:34] <jonsowman> oh ok
[19:34] <Matt_soton> jonsowman: have u managed to program it yet?
[19:34] <jonsowman> Matt_soton: yes it's all working
[19:34] <jonsowman> as we said at the conf
[19:34] <jonsowman> we're building a flight computer around it
[19:34] <Upu> rjharrison and I are looking at a break out board in Eagle
[19:34] <Upu> Ava2 will be based round it if it works
[19:35] <Matt_soton> jonsowman: you were speaking too quickly :P
[19:35] <jonsowman> it's fine but complex
[19:35] <jonsowman> and the datasheet is a nightmare
[19:35] <Upu> +1
[19:35] <Matt_soton> calculating values a pain?
[19:35] <jonsowman> hence why we're having an AVR to do all the horrid stuff and give a nice pretty serial menu to the user
[19:35] <jonsowman> fcvo pretty
[19:35] <jonsowman> Matt_soton: yeah the loop filter is horrid
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[19:36] <jonsowman> some parts are 0402 only
[19:36] <Upu> sure ?
[19:36] <Upu> I've sourced them al @ 0603
[19:36] <jonsowman> actually i'm thinking of the micrel xtal puller
[19:36] <jonsowman> that has 0402 only parts
[19:36] <Matt_soton> i ment the values of the pll
[19:36] <jonsowman> yeah the fractional-N thing is bizarre
[19:36] <jonsowman> the thing needs calibrating too, haven't got round to that yet
[19:37] <jonsowman> i'd quite like to check its harmonic output as well
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[19:37] <jonsowman> the final stage harmonic filter should be ok but yeah
[19:37] <jonsowman> would be nice to know
[19:38] <Upu> I'll speak to Chris at radio club and put that through spice and see whats going on
[19:39] <Matt_soton> so if u put it on a spectrum analyser and it is clean, can u slap a certified sticker on it?
[19:39] <jonsowman> Matt_soton: i'm not sure
[19:39] <number10> Upu do you think the total price of an ADF7012 module including PCB will be much less than an NTX2 or is the reason for using it the ability to have higher power for long distant flights?
[19:39] <jonsowman> Upu: the mathematical analysis has been done and simulated
[19:39] <Matt_soton> mind u the antenna is part of the transmitter and effects the erip
[19:39] <jonsowman> real life is not that simple :)
[19:39] <jonsowman> Matt_soton: yeah i know
[19:39] <jonsowman> LPD433 is 10mW ERP iirc
[19:39] <Matt_soton> so surely the antenna needs to be attached by the end user and they need to certify it
[19:39] <Upu> number10 price wise ? If you don't charge yourself for soldering time ? Probaby £5-£6
[19:39] <Matt_soton> also free samples
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[19:40] <Upu> Higher power could be used when on the ground for location
[19:40] <number10> I was thinking that
[19:40] <Upu> as long as your payload is "not capable of flight"
[19:40] <Upu> i.e balloon has burst and is on the ground
[19:41] <Upu> thats the way I read it anyway
[19:41] <jonsowman> Upu: you could just use the CUSF board, it works as a breakout
[19:41] <jonsowman> i.e. can be used as just a radio
[19:41] <Upu> yeah but if I design my own I can a) get to understand it b) integrate it into my flight computer
[19:41] <Matt_soton> also jonsowman, 27MHz/4 sits right in thte middle :)
[19:42] <number10> Upu is having fun with eagle jonsowman so dont stop him
[19:42] <jonsowman> yeah that's fair enough
[19:42] <jonsowman> I like eagle, i've been using it for years
[19:42] <jonsowman> on and off
[19:42] <Upu> I'm coming round to it
[19:42] <jonsowman> Randomskk is a kicad fan
[19:42] <jonsowman> i sort of like it but it's not quite polished enough yet for my liking
[19:42] <jonsowman> it does some things much better than eagle though
[19:43] <Upu> cut and paste ?
[19:43] <jonsowman> yes but also bigger things
[19:43] <Upu> Eagle is frustrating as hell at times
[19:43] <jonsowman> i think most CAD programmes are
[19:43] <Upu> but when you work out its little nuances its fine
[19:43] <jonsowman> better the devil you know, etc
[19:43] <Upu> yeah
[19:43] <Upu> does what I need
[19:43] <Upu> and I like the price
[19:44] <jonsowman> kicad is also free
[19:44] <jonsowman> and open source, if that matters to you
[19:44] <Laurenceb_> STALLMAN SAYS YES
[19:44] <jonsowman> lol
[19:45] <Upu> No it doesn't
[19:45] <Upu> software can be bad closed or open source :)
[19:47] <jonsowman> in any case the CUSF design might help
[19:47] <Matt_soton> whats the best way to divide a XL by 4, is it just gonna have to be two flip flops?
[19:47] <jonsowman> to make sense of the datasheet if nothing else
[19:48] <jonsowman> Matt_soton: but like, gate propagation delays!
[19:48] <jonsowman> :P
[19:48] <jonsowman> but yes that's probably the way to do it
[19:48] <Upu> yes I've been comparing the CUSF design with mine
[19:50] <Matt_soton> kinda annoying itll take one IC to /4 when normally that would be a tiny spec on a ASIC
[19:50] <jonsowman> design your own ASIC then
[19:51] <Matt_soton> i dont think anyone would buy it
[19:51] <jonsowman> lol
[19:51] <Randomskk> sorry, back, was cooking
[19:51] <Randomskk> Upu: did you get an 0603 22nH inductor?
[19:51] <Upu> yeah
[19:51] <Randomskk> okay
[19:51] <Upu> 1711725 MULTICOMP - MCFT000019 - INDUCTOR, 0603, 22NH
[19:51] <Upu> 1711725
[19:51] <Upu> Farnell
[19:52] <Randomskk> interesting
[19:52] <Upu> I used it on Ava for the GPS Antenna filter
[19:54] <Upu> it being a 22nH inductor
[19:58] <Lunar_Lander> hello GW8RAK
[19:58] <GW8RAK> Evening Lunar_Lander
[19:59] <Lunar_Lander> how are you?
[19:59] <GW8RAK> Fine, You?
[19:59] <Lunar_Lander> same here, thanks
[20:00] <Lunar_Lander> is Wales good for travelling?
[20:02] <Randomskk> do you like rain, or sheep?
[20:02] <Lunar_Lander> rain is good
[20:02] <Lunar_Lander> sheep also
[20:02] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[20:02] <Upu> you're in luck!
[20:03] <Upu> afk
[20:03] <Randomskk> yea, you might just love wales
[20:03] <Lunar_Lander> cool!
[20:03] <Lunar_Lander> GW8RAK : maybe we can fly my payload there one day
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[20:04] <GW8RAK> There's a lot of open space, but the winds go east towards the big towns
[20:05] <GW8RAK> But hopefully my balloon will rise over them and land on the hills.
[20:05] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[20:05] <Lunar_Lander> hi nosebleedKT
[20:05] <GW8RAK> If I can get a southward drift, then it's clear land
[20:05] <Lunar_Lander> yay
[20:05] <Lunar_Lander> maybe we can make a German-British joint launch
[20:05] <nosebleedKT> hi luna
[20:05] <Lunar_Lander> like Darkside did with Horus 15.5 an Australian-British joint launch
[20:06] <GW8RAK> We could set an altitude record to beat the Australians
[20:06] <Lunar_Lander> nosebleedKT : I went to the post office and it closed one minute before!
[20:06] <Lunar_Lander> so I'll send it tomorrow
[20:06] <Lunar_Lander> yeah! :P
[20:06] <nosebleedKT> lol'
[20:06] <Lunar_Lander> actually it was 6 pm
[20:06] <Lunar_Lander> and it was closed
[20:06] <Lunar_Lander> like they closed at 5:58
[20:07] <Lunar_Lander> actually, at the side of the building is a sign
[20:07] <Lunar_Lander> "Service Desert? Not with us!"
[20:13] <Lunar_Lander> but well
[20:13] <Lunar_Lander> I bought all things needed for hot dogs
[20:13] <Lunar_Lander> cucumbers, sausages, hot dog rolls, danish mustard and remoulade and roasted onions
[20:13] <Lunar_Lander> :D
[20:15] <nosebleedKT> lol
[20:16] <nosebleedKT> im so tires
[20:16] <nosebleedKT> tired
[20:16] <nosebleedKT> i go sleep
[20:16] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[20:16] <Lunar_Lander> good night nosebleedKT
[20:16] <nosebleedKT> gn
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[20:17] <Lunar_Lander> GW8RAK : what do you think about the joint launch?
[20:18] <GW8RAK> If I can get a launch site here in Wales, we could launch from here and float to Germany and then cut down
[20:18] <Lunar_Lander> yay!
[20:18] <Lunar_Lander> :P
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[20:24] <Matt_soton> jonsowman: do u know if the output of that micrel part is a square wave?
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[20:25] <jonsowman> not sure
[20:25] <jonsowman> it might be square
[20:25] <Matt_soton> hmm ok
[20:25] <jonsowman> and just uses the output harmonic filter to make it 'clean'
[20:25] <jonsowman> or sort-of-a-sinusoid
[20:25] <Matt_soton> is it a 50ohm matched filter then?
[20:25] <Matt_soton> or is the output an odd impedance?
[20:25] <jonsowman> yes in theory
[20:26] <jonsowman> see datasheet
[20:26] <Matt_soton> asking u is much easier :P
[20:26] <jonsowman> lol
[20:26] <jonsowman> its been a while since i worked on it
[20:26] <Matt_soton> ok
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[20:40] <Randomskk> Matt_soton: the output of the micrel is the pll output
[20:40] <Randomskk> so should be sine
[20:41] <Matt_soton> oh ok
[20:41] <Randomskk> haven't measured it personally though
[20:42] <Matt_soton> im actually thinking of doing something else now, i need to get a square wave to a sine wave
[20:42] <Matt_soton> unless thers a way to divide by 4 without flipflops
[20:43] <Randomskk> sq to sine is annoying
[20:43] <Randomskk> have to go through a tank and filter at least
[20:43] <Randomskk> best to keep it a sine if you can
[20:43] <Randomskk> not sure though
[20:43] <Randomskk> the pll uses large divide registers internally
[20:45] <Matt_soton> so i could use a pll instead of a flipflop arrangment i suppose
[20:46] <Matt_soton> seems more effort then just putting a few caps and inductors on the outout
[20:46] <Randomskk> harder though
[20:46] <Randomskk> it does
[20:47] <Matt_soton> whats the typical required supression of the 3rd harmonic in transmitters?
[20:47] <Matt_soton> 70dB at least?
[20:47] <Randomskk> should be okay technically but you should probably look up the actual legal requirements
[20:47] <Randomskk> I think it is okay
[20:49] <Matt_soton> well Chebyshev filters seem to have a decent roll-off
[20:51] <Randomskk> they are clever but also you can control whether your ripple appears in the passband or the.. other band
[20:51] <Matt_soton> stopband :P
[20:51] <Matt_soton> passpand ripple is fine
[20:51] <Randomskk> indeed
[20:51] <Randomskk> well
[20:51] <Randomskk> yes and no
[20:52] <Randomskk> but stopband ripple is illegal, passband ripple is annoying
[20:52] <Randomskk> if cutoff is suitably above operating frequency it's fine
[20:52] <Matt_soton> well surely the stopband ripple legalness depends on how much of it there is?
[20:52] <Randomskk> yes
[20:52] <Randomskk> if it's all below the required dB level then no problem
[20:53] <Matt_soton> i have a nice old text book on rf electronics and so filtering, but in the end i think ill end up finding a online calcuator
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[20:55] <Matt_soton> elliptic filters seem to have a even faster roll off but with ripple in both bands
[20:56] <Randomskk> yes
[20:56] <Randomskk> chebyshev has somewhat configurable tradeoff in ripple
[20:56] <Randomskk> so I was looking into my amp design
[20:56] <Randomskk> I designed a 10W class A
[20:57] <Randomskk> but it turns out 5mW is my normal listening volume
[20:57] <Matt_soton> is this the 100W idle current one?
[20:57] <Randomskk> yes
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[21:03] <Dutch-Mill> @Costyn
[21:03] <Upu> ping costyn :)
[21:04] <Dutch-Mill> yep :)
[21:04] <Dutch-Mill> ping Costyn
[21:06] <Dutch-Mill> Upu do you use an LNA for receiving?
[21:07] <Upu> a preamp ?
[21:07] <Dutch-Mill> yes a preamp
[21:07] <Upu> no
[21:07] <Upu> http://ava.upuaut.net/files/watson.jpg <- this is me. With a FT817 and a house thats 300m ASL
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[21:09] somnium (02da03e1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.218.3.225) joined #highaltitude.
[21:09] <LazyLeopard> ...and an antenna well above the roof-line. ;)
[21:10] <Upu> I put it high
[21:10] <Upu> that was my old TV mast
[21:10] <somnium> Hi all
[21:10] <Upu> evening somnium
[21:10] <Dutch-Mill> it works nice ... i have a x30 too but as you now....most people live below ASL
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[21:11] <somnium> I have just phuchased the Lassen iQ for my teams balloon project and am looking at the antenna for the GPS
[21:12] <somnium> http://www.dpieshop.com/trimble-miniature-30v-unpackaged-gps-antenna-hfl-connector-5785900-replacement-p-234.html?osCsid=978ud2q0oupcohls16nranok53 says it requires a good ground plane to work correctly, what do i need to do in order to get a good ground plane?
[21:12] <Upu> can I recommend you don't use that
[21:12] <Upu> http://ava.upuaut.net/files/damaged_ava.jpg
[21:12] <somnium> The GPS or that antenna?
[21:12] <Upu> antenna
[21:12] <somnium> ahh i see
[21:12] <Upu> http://www.dpieshop.com/trimble-miniature-30v-gps-antenna-mcx-connector-5623750-replacement-p-289.html?osCsid=978ud2q0oupcohls16nranok53
[21:12] <somnium> dosent look good!
[21:12] <Upu> use one of those
[21:13] <Upu> with a suitable socket on it
[21:13] <Upu> I lost my telemetry due to that failure
[21:13] <somnium> I need a HFL connector?
[21:13] <Upu> sure there will be an adaptor from that to SMA
[21:14] <Upu> Rob uses Lassen iQ not sure what he used
[21:14] <daveake> Yes they do adapters for SMA and MCX
[21:15] <somnium> I will look into it. Thanks! You could have save my project
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[21:16] <Upu> http://www.flickr.com/photos/30721501@N05/3506020663/in/set-72157616505094071
[21:16] <somnium> Upu, will the end of that antenna be put on the outside of the payload on on the inside?
[21:16] <Upu> yeah note the black cable coming in from the right side into an SMA convertor
[21:16] <Upu> http://www.flickr.com/photos/30721501@N05/3506019763/in/set-72157616505094071/lightbox/
[21:18] <Upu> afk a little dog needs a walk
[21:18] <somnium> I see. Looks good
[21:33] GW8RAK (~chatzilla@host-78-147-73-52.as13285.net) joined #highaltitude.
[21:35] <Laurenceb_> http://www.flickr.com/photos/30721501@N05/6209901785/in/photostream
[21:35] <Laurenceb_> wtf...
[21:35] <Lunar_Lander> wb GW8RAK
[21:35] <Lunar_Lander> ROFL
[21:36] <Laurenceb_> looks more fun than ballooning
[21:36] <daveake> lol
[21:36] <fsphil-laptop> and he seemed so normal lol
[21:37] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[21:37] <k5egg> hahaha
[21:38] <k5egg> awesome
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[21:42] <natrium42> Laurenceb_: wow
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[21:43] <Upu> hey natrium42
[21:43] <Lunar_Lander> hey natrium42!
[21:43] <Lunar_Lander> natrium42 : may I ask you something?
[21:43] <Upu> anyone mentioned to you spacenear.us had a blip last Saturday, httpd process died
[21:44] <Upu> seems cpanel "automagically" restarted
[21:44] <natrium42> hi Upu and Lunar_Lander
[21:44] <natrium42> yeah, i saw the log, not sure what happened
[21:44] <natrium42> we should move to AWS
[21:44] <natrium42> :P
[21:44] <natrium42> Lunar_Lander: sup?
[21:44] <Upu> that would work
[21:44] <Lunar_Lander> do you know Ham radio operators in russia?
[21:45] <natrium42> i'm afraid not
[21:45] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[21:45] <Lunar_Lander> you know why I ask :)?
[21:45] <natrium42> yes
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[21:46] <natrium42> TBH russia is pretty foreign to me
[21:46] <Lunar_Lander> oh
[21:46] <natrium42> i was merely born there and that's about it :)
[21:47] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[21:47] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[21:47] <natrium42> we do need to find some hams there, though :)
[21:47] <Lunar_Lander> yeah :)
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[21:50] <Lunar_Lander> I still don't get the photo that Laurenceb_ posted
[21:50] <Lunar_Lander> how in the world would one dress like that?
[21:50] <Lunar_Lander> *why
[21:50] <Randomskk> for a laugh, or because you wanted to, or because someone talked you into it, or mind-altering substances, or...
[21:50] <natrium42> that's a good question
[21:50] <Randomskk> there are people who dress like that on a somewhat regular basis
[21:51] <NigeyS> on fridays my name is nigela....
[21:51] <natrium42> and i think the answer has a lot to do with how the world works
[21:51] <Lunar_Lander> LOL NigeyS
[21:51] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[21:51] <Lunar_Lander> quantum and so on?
[21:51] <Darkside> NigeyS bites?
[21:52] <NigeyS> :p
[21:52] <Darkside> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtS2Ikk7A9I [NSFW]
[21:53] <natrium42> Not Safe for W0OTM?
[21:56] <NigeyS> pmsl @ that vid Darkside !
[21:56] <Darkside> :P
[21:57] <jonsowman> haha
[21:57] <jonsowman> that is very entertaining
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[21:58] <NigeyS> evening jonsowman
[21:58] <jonsowman> hi NigeyS
[21:59] <natrium42> hello nerdgirls and nerdboys and NigeyS
[21:59] <NigeyS> yey i got a special mention :D tnx naaaaaaaaaaaaatrium
[21:59] <jonsowman> lol
[21:59] <jonsowman> hi natrium42
[21:59] <jonsowman> how are things
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[22:05] <natrium42> jonsowman: good, making a site in RoR
[22:05] <natrium42> going to YCombinator startup school on the weekend
[22:05] <jonsowman> cool
[22:05] <jonsowman> :)
[22:05] <natrium42> starting job on monday
[22:05] <natrium42> many things :D
[22:05] <jonsowman> :D
[22:05] <natrium42> http://startupschool.org/speakers.html
[22:06] <natrium42> how are you?
[22:06] <jonsowman> looks great!
[22:06] <jonsowman> yeah all good thanks
[22:07] <jonsowman> busy as usual
[22:07] <natrium42> :)
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[22:12] <tim_> hi guys
[22:12] <tim_> if i were to buy a gumxtic
[22:12] <tim_> gumstix
[22:12] <tim_> which one would you recommend
[22:12] Nick change: tim_ -> TimZaman
[22:14] <NigeyS> tiiiiiiiiiiiim!
[22:14] <TimZaman> oh hi
[22:14] <W0OTM> natrium42: huh?
[22:14] <NigeyS> hi2u
[22:14] <NigeyS> gumstix .. hmm .. didnt james coxon use a gumstix once ?
[22:15] <fsphil-laptop> couple of times I think, did sstv from it
[22:15] <TimZaman> james had one year
[22:15] <TimZaman> yeah
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[22:15] <NigeyS> ooo
[22:15] <TimZaman> but they're friggin expensive
[22:15] <NigeyS> yeah they def not cheap
[22:15] <TimZaman> still though do have some cash to burn
[22:15] <NigeyS> try a friendlyarm tim
[22:15] <TimZaman> my pandaboard's in backorder since first week of september
[22:15] <TimZaman> due to arrive end of nov
[22:15] <NigeyS> or 1 of the new beagleboards
[22:16] <TimZaman> do have the xM
[22:16] <TimZaman> new beagleboards?
[22:16] <fsphil-laptop> any sign of the raspberry pi being released?
[22:16] <NigeyS> http://www.friendlyarm.net/products/mini6410
[22:17] <TimZaman> @fsphil wow raspberri pi looks sweet
[22:17] <fsphil-laptop> does, I'm going to try getting one when they're out
[22:18] <TimZaman> Yes please
[22:18] <Lunar_Lander> hello TimZaman
[22:18] <TimZaman> oh thats a good accent there in cambridge
[22:18] <TimZaman> haha i had rocketboy on the voicemail a few weeks back, lovely accent
[22:19] <Lunar_Lander> TimZaman : I was able to receive ALPHA
[22:19] <Lunar_Lander> indoors
[22:19] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[22:19] <TimZaman> so whats that
[22:20] <Lunar_Lander> that was a balloon by the Apex team that drifted across central Europe
[22:21] <TimZaman> jezus those "FriendlyArm" are a lot more expensive than the beagle or pandaboard, and they look like my ass
[22:22] <TimZaman> when was this?
[22:23] <NigeyS> ure ass looks like a pcb? :o
[22:23] <TimZaman> the APEX 1 balloon might be the single most illegal HAB payload ever made
[22:24] <Lunar_Lander> why?
[22:24] <NigeyS> lol
[22:24] <TimZaman> i dont care much about safety, but i dont agree with that thingy saying Harmless on the side
[22:26] <Lunar_Lander> because of the high voltage for the Geiger counters?
[22:27] <TimZaman> because the outside is made of plastic
[22:27] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[22:27] <TimZaman> that could seriously kill a person if the parachute malfunctions
[22:27] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:28] <jonsowman> it is not illegal
[22:28] <TimZaman> every payload i had had 5~10cm of very high grain EPS
[22:28] <TimZaman> jonsowman: dont you have density requirements?
[22:28] <jonsowman> TimZaman: no
[22:28] <TimZaman> Ah. okay than it'd be illegal in holland
[22:28] <jonsowman> however i do agree, some extra degree of padding would have been wise
[22:29] <TimZaman> Thanks.
[22:30] <TimZaman> oh wait no, there was a dutch team of old guys that used a payload to send 5W stuff out, theyu really used a thick copper dish-like thing under the payload. now that was dangerous.
[22:30] <NigeyS> ee..ouch
[22:34] <fsphil-laptop> pointy thing and heavy sharp objects are fine an america, they've lots of empty land
[22:34] <fsphil-laptop> but not western europe :)
[22:34] <TimZaman> true
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[22:37] <NATO_> hey guys, question on heating. I have a really small payload, about 5 x 4 x 1 inch internally, with 1 inch thick foam surrounding (extruded polystyrene). My calcs say that at -30 C, 3 Watts would get this thing really hot.
[22:37] <NATO_> Is that possible?
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[22:39] <NATO_> oops, just found the mistake in my calcs!
[22:41] <russss> NATO_: bear in mind that in a near-vacuum there is very little conduction/convection
[22:42] <russss> and when all you have is radiation it changes things a lot.
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[22:47] <Lunar_Lander> good night
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[22:52] <griffonbot> @cuspaceflight: We are pleased to announce the launch of our new website! http://t.co/7szpO8O2 #cusf #ukhas [http://twitter.com/cuspaceflight/status/129329524486844416]
[22:54] <NATO_> russss I still get around 100C, but that's without radiation, and holing the outside surface temp to -30C. I'm going to have to test it in the fridge to see if I'm anywhere close.
[22:54] <Matt_soton> jonsowman: been stealing favicons from somewhere have we now?
[22:54] <jonsowman> that wasn't me... where's that from?
[22:55] <Matt_soton> tahts the PH icon
[22:55] <jonsowman> :\
[22:55] <jonsowman> interesting
[22:55] <Matt_soton> i dont mind btw
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[22:55] <jonsowman> i'm intrigued as to how it got there
[22:56] <jonsowman> it honestly wasn't me
[22:56] <Matt_soton> well someone must have put it there :P
[22:56] <jonsowman> yes indeed
[22:56] <NigeyS> gremlins
[22:56] <NigeyS> they get everywhere ya know
[22:56] <jonsowman> lol
[22:57] <Matt_soton> i think it found its way onto hexoc or apexhab at one point too
[22:57] <jonsowman> it's on hexoc definitely
[22:57] <jonsowman> somewhere
[22:57] <fsphil-laptop> I accidentally found Photoshop on my PC once. no idea how it got there :)
[22:58] <NigeyS> i accidentally found a......
[22:58] Action: NigeyS goes back to debugging apache
[22:59] <jonsowman> that sounds like a laugh
[22:59] Action: jonsowman uses cherokee
[23:00] <NigeyS> oh its great fun, when i have way of knowing what cased the 500 odd segfaults in the last 5 days :/
[23:00] <NigeyS> no*
[23:00] <jonsowman> :|
[23:00] <NigeyS> suspect a dodgy php module, bloody devs and their funky modules! :@
[23:00] <jonsowman> hehe
[23:01] <NigeyS> http://www.projectswift.co.uk/
[23:01] <NigeyS> birdie!
[23:01] <jonsowman> :)
[23:01] <jonsowman> good name
[23:01] <NigeyS> :D
[23:02] <NigeyS> it is actually a swift too, tok ages to find that on google, and btw never search google images for "balloon"
[23:02] <NigeyS> i was mortified when it came up with "anal balloon pump" :|
[23:02] <fsphil-laptop> ...
[23:02] <fsphil-laptop> ah
[23:03] Action: fsphil-laptop closes firefox
[23:03] <NigeyS> lmao
[23:03] <jonsowman> ...
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[23:04] <fsphil-laptop> swift would be a good name for a balloon from here to africa. which I believe is impossible but hey
[23:05] <fsphil-laptop> well not impossible, but unlikely
[23:06] <natrium42> fsphil-laptop: so, when are you coming to palo alto?
[23:06] <natrium42> :P
[23:06] <BrainDamage> you could try different approaches, instead of balloons, giant railway guns
[23:06] <fsphil-laptop> or attach it to an actual swift
[23:07] <fsphil-laptop> natrium42, but there's *so* much to do in cookstown ;)
[23:07] <natrium42> pfft
[23:08] <fsphil-laptop> I always wanted to go to the states, to see a shuttle launch. kinda left that one a bit too late
[23:09] <natrium42> yeah, me too
[23:09] <fsphil-laptop> there's other rockets launching but nothing as impressive
[23:09] <fsphil-laptop> (says the man who's never seen a rocket launch)
[23:09] <NigeyS> i have, boot.. cat.. ass.. rocket :)
[23:09] <fsphil-laptop> ass rocket?
[23:10] <NigeyS> hell yeah
[23:10] <Randomskk> I saw one when I was tiny
[23:10] <Randomskk> kinda glad now
[23:10] <NigeyS> better than a pump..lol
[23:10] <zyp> I grew up next to a rocket range, seen a lot of launches
[23:10] <fsphil-laptop> no wonder that walked weird
[23:10] <NigeyS> lol!
[23:10] <natrium42> big ass-rocket /xkcd
[23:10] <fsphil-laptop> that cat *
[23:11] <NigeyS> im surprised he got on well with you phil, he never normally likes visitors, he's very anti social
[23:11] <fsphil-laptop> water rockets don't count. I'll have to visit EARS some day
[23:11] <Elwell> has anybody been to spadeadam?
[23:12] <fsphil-laptop> not I
[23:12] <NigeyS> where's that ? :|
[23:13] <Elwell> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Spadeadam
[23:14] <NigeyS> ooooooo
[23:14] <Elwell> modern stuff means its closd to public but the stands are historc monuments now
[23:14] <Darkside> hah, bluea streak
[23:14] <Darkside> they launched those from here too
[23:14] <zyp> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_rocket_incident <- ever heard of this?
[23:14] <NigeyS> wow the site is huge
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[23:16] <Elwell> and isle of wight
[23:16] <NigeyS> wow zyp that was 1 hell of a close call!
[23:16] <NigeyS> hey RocketBoy
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[23:17] <zyp> my parents live in one of the closest houses to the range
[23:18] <fsphil-laptop> one of the blue streak engines is on display at Armagh Planetarium. It's pretty neat up close
[23:18] <zyp> that rocket is one of the larger they launch from there, I still remember the noise and shaking of the house from that one
[23:19] <Darkside> the launch pads are huge
[23:19] <zyp> even though I was pretty young& I think I just had woken up and was about to go to kindergarten
[23:19] <hibby> we're adapting for sounding rocket tracking this year
[23:19] <Darkside> http://maps.google.com/?ll=-31.077159,136.4429&spn=0.015235,0.025856&hnear=Adelaide+South+Australia,+Australia&t=h&z=16&vpsrc=6 theres the two at woomera
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[23:21] <zyp> I went through space technology in last year of high school, some of the classes were actually at the range :)
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[23:24] <Darkside> ok i'd better go run this prac...
[23:24] <Darkside> freaking 2nd years..
[23:24] <Darkside> they can all go diaf
[23:24] <Darkside> anyway, later..
[23:25] <hibby> lol
[23:26] <NigeyS> lol
[23:26] <fsphil-laptop> important words from the health and safety department there
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[23:27] <Elwell> http://www.spaceuk.org/bstreak/bs/bs_pics.html
[23:29] Action: hibby walked into a pole tonight
[23:29] <staylo> was he annoyed?
[23:30] <hibby> muchly
[23:30] <Elwell> had the dancer vacated it first?
[23:30] <hibby> i then told the yong ladies from the tit bar that they should go away
[23:30] <hibby>  ocht, stupid connection
[23:31] <hibby> 2megabytes/s HTTP download, can't type smoothly into a terminal
[23:32] <hibby> that is attached to a server via ssh
[23:32] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
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[23:32] <hibby> DAMMIT
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[00:00] --- Thu Oct 27 2011