highaltitude.log.20111024

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[03:01] <griffonbot> @sdh7: RT @apexhab: Check out our post-launch article on @hackaday. http://t.co/YrZoj4kg #ukhas #apexhab [http://twitter.com/sdh7/status/128305052170461184]
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[07:01] <costyn> morning
[07:01] <number10> 'morning
[07:02] <costyn> yesssss! I have a radio I can buy from a HAM friend... a first generation 817
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[07:42] <costyn> o wait... ham not HAM hehe (according to a guy on hackaday)
[07:43] <jonsowman> although if you read the wiki link in the comment...
[07:43] <jonsowman> there's an argument that it should be HAM
[07:43] <Randomskk> also HAMs are massive pedants
[07:44] <jonsowman> depends where you believe the word ham/HAM came from really
[07:44] <jonsowman> but that, that too ^
[07:45] <jonsowman> also lol at the comment "The project team failed to inform us in Eastern Europe about the balloon, there are tonnes of hams here :)"
[07:45] <jonsowman> not like they didn't try :\
[07:45] <costyn> hehe
[07:45] <costyn> well I'm guessing what the comment author meant was 'inform beforehand' :)
[07:46] <costyn> which would have been a bit silly tho :)
[07:46] <jonsowman> yeah, well we were hoping it wouldn't get that far...
[07:46] <jonsowman> oh well, good excuse to try again
[07:46] <costyn> indeed
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[07:52] <griffonbot> @DL5RFK: RT @apexhab: Check out our post-launch article on @hackaday. http://t.co/YrZoj4kg #ukhas #apexhab [http://twitter.com/DL5RFK/status/128378419862978560]
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[09:08] <fsphil> to really annoy them type it as H.A.M.
[09:08] <fsphil> not that I'd ever do such a thing
[09:09] <russss> doesn't seem like the explanations which favour it being capitalised are particularly likely.
[09:10] <russss> certain people enjoy capitalising three-letter words which they don't understand.
[09:10] <daveake> YES
[09:13] <eroomde> THAT WOULD BE AN ECUMENICAL MATTER
[09:14] <daveake> ARSE!
[09:15] <fsphil> GIRLS!
[09:16] <daveake> Now concentrate this time, Dougal. These balloons are very small; those are far away...
[09:16] <fsphil> sorry, not sure what came over me there
[09:16] <fsphil> lol
[09:19] <costyn> :)
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[09:24] <eroomde> russss: but yes I agree
[09:24] <eroomde> 'I don't understand what is so good about MAC it's just expensive crap for posh people'
[09:27] <costyn> hehe kinda true (I have a MacBook Air) :)
[09:27] <costyn> but it also 'just works' and is nice to look at
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[09:30] <fsphil> I'm currently setting up an ipad for someone in our office. it's a horrible shape of a device.
[09:34] <fsphil> great screen though. and spacenear.us looks well on it :)
[09:34] <daveake> Looks good on a Samsung Tab too :D
[09:35] <fsphil> lol
[09:35] <daveake> And that has a nice shape :)
[09:36] <jgrahamc> I was in Belgium yesterday and only followed the Apex news sporadically.
[09:36] <jgrahamc> What a flight!
[09:36] <jgrahamc> Any ideas why it floated?
[09:36] <fsphil> not enough helium we think
[09:36] <fsphil> haha, spacenear.us just crashed safari
[09:39] <fsphil> I suppose these floating launches are basically the superpressure effect
[09:40] <jgrahamc> What type of balloon was used?
[09:40] <fsphil> the squeeze of the balloon eventually overcame the expansion of the gas
[09:40] <fsphil> it was a 2000g hyuyee .. er, the chinese brand I can't spell
[09:41] <jgrahamc> Am I correct in thinking that we've seen more floating/leaking behaviour with these?
[09:42] <fsphil> Hwoyee -- that's the name
[09:42] <fsphil> yes a few of them have floated
[09:42] <fsphil> if they stay up until sunset, then they could potentially float all night
[09:43] <fsphil> if they're launched early enough the UV from the sun will eventually degrade it enough to burst
[09:43] <fsphil> only two have gone overnight so far, this one and the Horus one a few weeks ago
[09:47] <eroomde> jgrahamc: yes, but it must be emphasised that they've all been quite underfilled
[09:47] <eroomde> i.e. quite light payloads with low ascent rates
[09:47] <eroomde> i'm not sure there have been many conventional 3kg payloads going up at 5m/s
[09:51] <jgrahamc> Thanks. Interested because my next launch (when I get round to it) is going to be very light.
[09:52] <eroomde> sounds like a floater
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[09:54] <jgrahamc> I'd really quite like it to come down. Perhaps a cut down will be on the cards.
[09:55] <eroomde> yes
[09:55] <eroomde> perimeter based is always fairly safe
[09:55] <eroomde> a 'safe' polygon and a line crossing algorithm to check
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[09:57] <Laurenceb_> theres code on the wiki for that
[09:58] <griffonbot> @hdznrrd: RT @apexhab: An urgent call for HAM users in Poland or Belarus to help us track #apexhab alpha. All RTs appreciated! DETAILS: http://t.c ... [http://twitter.com/hdznrrd/status/128409946164432896]
[09:59] <Laurenceb_> bit late now
[09:59] <Laurenceb_> bbl
[10:01] <griffonbot> @adamcudworth: Taking all my HAB stuff up to Nottingham #UKHAS #HABE2 [http://twitter.com/adamcudworth/status/128410696512847872]
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[10:04] <jgrahamc> Of course, I could just wait for a launch on a day when the wind is circling Cambridge as happened with GAGA-1
[10:04] <jgrahamc> We had time for lunch while it circled overhead :-)
[10:05] <daveake> lol. My first launch landed 20 miles away. I didn't realise then how lucky I was :)
[10:06] <costyn> jgrahamc: I was looking at the arhab distance records yesterday with some amusement, seeing the category for least distance travelled.
[10:07] <jgrahamc> Hadn't looked into that. What's the shortest?
[10:07] <costyn> 2.01 miles
[10:08] <fsphil> nice
[10:08] <fsphil> I'd need that
[10:10] <costyn> right... lunchtime... afk
[10:10] <jgrahamc> For GAGA-1 it was 11.81km
[10:10] <jgrahamc> Between launch and landing spot.
[10:11] <eroomde> i think there was a pegasus back in 2007 that we launched from EARS
[10:11] <eroomde> no maybe 2008
[10:11] <eroomde> that went about 5km
[10:11] <eroomde> up to about 28km
[10:11] <jgrahamc> Not too much messing around with that then.
[10:12] <eroomde> lay on the ground with a pair of binoculars and watched it the whole way up
[10:12] <eroomde> it just went straight up and came straight back down
[10:12] <eroomde> i think most of the distance travelled was steady-state glide on the parachute
[10:12] <jgrahamc> Awesome
[10:12] <jgrahamc> I was hoping to see GAGA-1 in its final descent but decided that looking at the road was more important.
[10:13] <eroomde> that really would be the day for a very undeffilled payload with a long endurance
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[10:14] <eroomde> we've seen stuff come down a couple of times
[10:14] <eroomde> infact i had a pic about it in my ukhas conference talk
[10:14] <Darkside> seen balloons land?
[10:14] <eroomde> the joy of in-car real-time landing predictions
[10:14] <Darkside> we've done that
[10:14] <Darkside> many times
[10:14] <jgrahamc> Would love to do that.
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[10:30] <k5egg> could one legally deploy a balloon designed for long term hanging around, say, 65-70 kft?
[10:30] <k5egg> by long term I mean several days
[10:30] <Darkside> with the correct clearance
[11:03] <rob____> hey this is probably a bit of a simplistic question but what are the laws in the UK regarding launching weather balloons?
[11:07] <fsphil> You need permission+notam from the CAA
[11:07] <fsphil> I'm not sure what the specific rules are regarding weight and size though
[11:08] <rob____> any idea how long that take and whether it costs any money?
[11:08] <rob____> and also do you have to travel to specific places to launch?
[11:09] <eroomde> rob____ ^
[11:09] <fsphil> that too :)
[11:10] <eroomde> we strongly recommend keeping everything <2kg, no sharp edges and pointy bits etc
[11:10] <daveake> fsphil ... how long does it take to get permission?
[11:11] <eroomde> that depends on the phase of the moon and the price of cheese
[11:11] <rob____> eroomde: thanks!
[11:11] <fsphil> how long is a piece of string? :)
[11:11] <rob____> half as long as it is twice as short?
[11:12] <fsphil> I pinged DM last night
[11:12] <fsphil> hopefully will get it issued soon
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[11:12] <daveake> Officially it's 28 days+. You need to call the CAA guy during the week before launch to make sure it gets done. IME.
[11:12] <daveake> But then I do get special treatment :p
[11:13] <fsphil> I've had it within two weeks, but currently I'm at two+ months :)
[11:14] <fsphil> actually it's three months now
[11:16] <DanielRichman> oh look, you're on slashdot
[11:17] <DanielRichman> http://science.slashdot.org/story/11/10/23/2330244/uk-team-misses-balloon-altitude-record-but-beats-a-few-others
[11:17] <fsphil> haha
[11:21] <priyesh> hey
[11:21] <priyesh> what's the best wordpress cache plugin
[11:21] <priyesh> we kinda need it now!
[11:21] <priyesh> :P
[11:21] <DanielRichman> web server?
[11:22] <priyesh> it's a shared host unfortunately
[11:22] <priyesh> i'd rather host it on a vps
[11:22] <fsphil> cloudflare? not sure if that would help with dynamic pages though
[11:22] <DanielRichman> your site looks fine so far :P
[11:23] <priyesh> so far :P
[11:23] <DanielRichman> anyway I have only ever used wordpress once, but I used WP Supercache. I think it works well for shared hosting 'cause it uses some htaccess tricks to serve pages without PHP/static pages if you set it up right
[11:23] <DanielRichman> but I can't vouch for it 'cause I don't really know.
[11:23] <priyesh> ok
[11:24] <jgrahamc> CloudFlare is pretty awesome
[11:29] <griffonbot> @apexhab: #apexhab is on the front page of #slashdot http://t.co/275so15d #ukhas [http://twitter.com/apexhab/status/128433015318773761]
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[11:41] <fsphil> A few of the commentators seem to have the idea there was no gps receiver on the flight
[11:41] <priyesh> yeah :S
[11:44] <jgrahamc> I would ignore most commentators in public forums like that. I had commentators on this project of mine: http://techcrunch.com/2011/05/28/the-cansole-a-pong-console-in-a-can/ claiming that I'd faked the whole thing with Adobe AfterEffects
[11:45] <griffonbot> @danielsaul: RT @apexhab: #apexhab is on the front page of #slashdot http://t.co/275so15d #ukhas [http://twitter.com/danielsaul/status/128436967686942720]
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[11:48] <fsphil> your pong thing?
[11:48] <jgrahamc> Yes. There was a whole forum where people were claiming I faked it.
[11:48] <fsphil> if you where going to fake something, you'd do something like Streetfighter or something
[11:48] <fsphil> it would be easier to make pong on an avr than in aftereffects
[11:49] <jgrahamc> Well, my next HAB flight is going to involve a moon landing.
[11:49] <fsphil> yay!
[11:49] <Randomskk> way ahead of you
[11:49] <Randomskk> remember the squirrel flight that SSTVd back moon landing images? :P
[11:49] <fsphil> was thinking that Randomskk :)
[11:49] <jgrahamc> :-)
[11:49] <fsphil> didn't you get to mars too?
[11:50] <Randomskk> haha indeed
[11:50] <Randomskk> it was an amazing flight
[11:50] <fsphil> I may add a certain cat to my next flight with live images
[11:51] <jgrahamc> Schrodingers?
[11:51] <fsphil> nyan :)
[11:53] <fsphil> I've enough flash space for an image
[11:53] <Randomskk> will you also transmit the noise though
[11:53] <Randomskk> I think you should
[11:53] <fsphil> on ssb .. oooh
[11:54] <fsphil> I sense a hack-a-day article coming up :)
[11:54] <DanielRichman> and you'd be able to transpose it by slightly mistuning your receiver
[12:04] <Darkside> do music
[12:04] <Darkside> :P
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[12:06] <fsphil> two ntx2's should manage a good tune on ssb :)
[12:06] <UpuWork> oh god
[12:07] <UpuWork> Slashdot
[12:07] <jonsowman> UpuWork: yea..
[12:07] <Randomskk> UpuWork: did you setup the lanyrd stuff for ukhas con?
[12:07] <UpuWork> hmm ?
[12:08] <UpuWork> lanyrd ?
[12:08] <Randomskk> http://lanyrd.com/2011/ukhas/
[12:08] <Randomskk> oh okay
[12:08] <Randomskk> presumably not then
[12:08] <UpuWork> nope not me
[12:08] <UpuWork> never heard of that
[12:09] <Darkside> hmm i should look at the analytics of my page
[12:09] <Darkside> meh hasnt gone up much
[12:09] <Darkside> though todays stats havent gone in yet
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[12:12] <fsphil> I should do a proper page
[12:12] <fsphil> hiya nickolai
[12:13] <fsphil> how'd things go yesterday?
[12:15] <fsphil> ah nuts, everyone in management here bought ipads
[12:15] <Randomskk> haha
[12:15] <Darkside> loool
[12:17] <daveake> "Yes! We're all individuals!"
[12:22] <daveake> I guess no-one else remembers Life Of Brian ...
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[12:22] <Darkside> i do
[12:22] <Randomskk> isn't it on iplayer now in fact?
[12:22] <jonsowman> he's not the messiah...
[12:23] <Darkside> i just can't remember thenext line
[12:23] <Darkside> he's a very naughty boy
[12:23] <jonsowman> :P
[12:23] <daveake> :)
[12:23] <Darkside> "leave that welsh tart alone" "but i don't think i want to"
[12:23] <daveake> Brian: You're all different! The Crowd: Yes, we ARE all different!
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[12:25] <jonsowman> i need to watch it again
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[12:25] <jonsowman> i can't remember nearly enough quotes :P
[12:26] <Darkside> have you seen the video of graham chapmans eulogy?
[12:26] <Darkside> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkxCHybM6Ek
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[12:27] <jcoxon> Morning
[12:27] <jonsowman> Darkside: that's excellent
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[12:30] <costyn> fsphil: nyan cat... that would be so much win! :)
[12:30] <Darkside> if i can get my flash to work, i'll make my payload play the audio...
[12:31] <Darkside> just sent it down as FM modulation
[12:31] <costyn> hehehe
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[12:39] <jdf_> what permissions do we need if not launching from cambridge? do we obtain a notam on the day? or is that a pre arranged thing for say, a 2 week window
[12:39] <Upu> hi jdf_
[12:39] <Upu> are you launching from your own location ?
[12:40] <Randomskk> jdf_: by and large you want to apply for permission about 5 wks in advance, maybe 6
[12:40] <Randomskk> that permission covers, say, a weekend
[12:40] <daveake> You need to apply stating which day your launch is and what time window. You can specify backup dates.
[12:40] <daveake> Form says 28+ days notice. Reality might be longer than that
[12:41] <daveake> I've always asked for a Saturday, then the Sunday as a backup, then 2-3 weekends following
[12:41] <Upu> 18 Breakout boards for uBlox coming from deepest darkest bulgaria
[12:42] <jdf_> do we need to ring up local authorities on the day?
[12:42] <Randomskk> yea, air traffic control
[12:42] <Upu> it will be stated on the NOTAM you get issued who you need to call
[12:42] <Randomskk> and check you are clear
[12:42] <eroomde> jdf_: once you have a notma, it will stipulate that you have to call the local air tower 24hrs and 5 mins before launch
[12:42] <Darkside> thats funny
[12:42] <jdf_> ok thanks
[12:42] <Darkside> terry called the air traffic control tower once
[12:43] <Darkside> they said they didn't care :P
[12:43] <Darkside> but we're not in the UK
[12:43] <daveake> LOL
[12:44] <daveake> My notams have never stated anything about ATC
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[12:45] <eroomde> our air tower has never cared
[12:45] <eroomde> daveake: you might be out of range of one
[12:45] <daveake> Guess so
[12:45] <eroomde> so not likely to bother them trying to route landing approaches
[12:45] <eroomde> we have cambridge airport 2 miles away so we have to let them know
[12:45] <daveake> OK
[12:46] <eroomde> althoug often they don't care
[12:47] <daveake> Sometimes I get calls from private pilots wondering if it's OK to pass by. Often don't.
[12:47] <Randomskk> I get calls from private pilots, helicopter companies, RAF etc every few days
[12:47] <Randomskk> typically at 7am
[12:47] <jgrahamc> I do recall when we launched GAGA-1 from Churchill and eroomde called the tower. As we were launching a light aircraft flew right overhead.
[12:47] <daveake> So far they've only ever called if I'm not launching, and never when I am
[12:47] <Randomskk> indeed
[12:47] <Darkside> hahahaha
[12:48] <daveake> Yeah, I had a small plane and a heli nearby when preparing for my first launch
[12:48] <daveake> I think they wanted to watch :D
[12:48] <Darkside> i'm trying to convince a glider pilot friend of mine to film a launch from the air
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[12:48] <daveake> A friend does paragliding, and ditto
[12:48] <jgrahamc> That would be great.
[12:49] <daveake> He has a helmet cam all set up anyway
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[12:55] <costyn> paragliders and hang gliders are often restricted as to where they can take off and land. easiest would be to take the balloon to them :)
[12:56] <costyn> although no unpowered aircraft would be able to keep up with a rising balloon. would be very challenging to coordinate the balloon with the glider to get any worthwhile video
[12:57] <daveake> Two balloons then :D
[12:58] <daveake> One has a camera on a swivel to watch the other ...
[12:58] <costyn> would be cool to see it rush by of course, but I think you'd have the best shot at this by sending a RC airplane with a camera onboard after it
[12:58] <daveake> With my flying skills, I'd run the risk of terminating the balloon ascent quite early..
[13:00] <costyn> or position one of those hexacopters closeby on a windless launch day and yes, propellers and latex balloons arent' the greatest of friends :)
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[13:04] <Zuph> Morning, Y'all.
[13:05] <Laurenceb> fo sho
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[13:26] <AndChat-> Afternoon
[13:26] <Dan-K2VOL> Morning
[13:26] <AndChat-> Oh gay
[13:27] Nick change: AndChat- -> NigeyMoby
[13:30] <NigeyMoby> How's you Dan?
[13:30] <Dan-K2VOL> doing well Nigel
[13:31] <Dan-K2VOL> looked a bit at your data this weekend, it's unfortunate that the batteries died when they did
[13:31] <Dan-K2VOL> how are you
[13:32] <Dan-K2VOL> also, I would start working on making a tow-balloon system to drag a superpressure balloon up to it's target altitude and have the tow balloon cut itself off
[13:32] <NigeyMoby> I know. Would u agree that it was still ascending when it lost battery? .. I'm still full of flu but its going slowly.
[13:33] <eroomde> we've flown tow balloons on a few things
[13:33] <eroomde> it works v nicely
[13:33] <NigeyMoby> Not heard of a tow balloon?
[13:34] <eroomde> a big lifty small balloon
[13:34] <eroomde> to get your system up to alt quikly
[13:34] <eroomde> so, we would have say a 500g balloon with 3kg free lift
[13:34] <eroomde> in a system with a 1.5kg balloon with very little lift - almost neutral
[13:34] <eroomde> this was to test a star camera
[13:34] <eroomde> the tow balloon yanked the entire system up to 28km
[13:34] <NigeyMoby> Ohh that sounds a great idea.
[13:35] <Dan-K2VOL> yes Nigel, it showed no signs of pressurizing when the telemetry stopped, or at least there are not enough data points at the end to conclusively show a change in the curve
[13:35] <NigeyMoby> Blimey
[13:35] <eroomde> then we cut it away, and the system just hung under the only-just-slightly-positive 1.5kg balloon
[13:35] <eroomde> so we could get afloat, basiclaly
[13:35] <Dan-K2VOL> nice eroomde
[13:35] <eroomde> this was back in the old days where floating was witchcraft
[13:35] <Dan-K2VOL> hehe
[13:35] <daveake> :)
[13:35] <Dan-K2VOL> Before floating was a mail-order from china
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[13:35] <NigeyMoby> Lol now u just use a howyee
[13:35] <eroomde> now we have this hoywee stuff, it seems to be quite reliable
[13:36] <eroomde> infact i have a vid of that laucnh
[13:36] <eroomde> the drapes were to reduce the rolling and piutching and yawing right down as the star camera needed very low rates
[13:36] <Dan-K2VOL> which one might say is an unreliable weather balloon product, I do believe the sounding measurers would like their instruments back if possible!
[13:36] <eroomde> http://vimeo.com/3803248
[13:37] <Laurenceb> http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/scigen/#examples
[13:37] <NigeyMoby> Dan, I plan 1 more pico, then I'm concentrating on the swift launches.
[13:37] <Dan-K2VOL> what's the swift?
[13:38] <Dan-K2VOL> have to watch after work eroomde, I put it on my instapaper list
[13:39] <NigeyMoby> They're going to be floaters, to eastern Europe. Missed the right winds last year :(
[13:39] <Dan-K2VOL> ahh
[13:39] <Dan-K2VOL> nice
[13:39] <Dan-K2VOL> you know the picos would be that if you get them working :-)
[13:39] <Dan-K2VOL> when
[13:40] <NigeyMoby> Indeed
[13:40] <Dan-K2VOL> The only reason why we've got such a massive battery and transmitter system on White Star's speedball flights is because we're in the aviation airways
[13:41] <NigeyMoby> True, I'm hoping to keep swift fairly light, and use 8 aa's max
[13:42] <Dan-K2VOL> if you can float above them, say 14km, and be sure you're not going to drift down into them, you could get away with solar-rechargeable system that satellite telemeters only a couple times a day, or a solar HF transmitter like the GHOST series
[13:42] <NigeyMoby> Hf would b nice. Swift will prolly have Aprs aswell.
[13:42] <Dan-K2VOL> and it would only take a 2m diameter superpressure sphere to a 200g payload to that height
[13:42] <Dan-K2VOL> oh nice
[13:43] <eroomde> we do really need to fly some of these 2m dia super pressure balloons
[13:43] <eroomde> well, build them too
[13:43] <Dan-K2VOL> yes seriously
[13:43] <eroomde> i imagine they'd cluster fairly readily too
[13:43] <NigeyMoby> Obv we will enable Aprs outside UK airspace
[13:44] <Dan-K2VOL> hmm I actually think clustering superpressures won't work well for long duration eroomde
[13:44] <Dan-K2VOL> judging from the fickle failures of even the pro superpressures
[13:44] <eroomde> contact between them?
[13:44] <Dan-K2VOL> they are very sensitive to things putting uneven stress on the envelopes
[13:44] <Dan-K2VOL> yeah
[13:45] <Dan-K2VOL> maybe if it was just balloon to balloon it might be ok
[13:45] <NigeyMoby> Clustering seems to b a bit hit and miss?
[13:45] <costyn> what's the advantage in clustering?
[13:46] <Zuph> Easier to build multiple small envelopes.
[13:46] <Zuph> Fewer seams to screw up.
[13:46] <eroomde> in case scaling super-pressures arbitrarily is difficult
[13:46] <Dan-K2VOL> The problem with clustering superpressures is that you may get different performance from each balloon, depending on how identical the envelopes are, and how precise the loading and helium filling is
[13:46] <eroomde> easier to use several smaller easier to make ones
[13:46] <costyn> ok makes sense thx
[13:46] <eroomde> i am several seconds behind Zuph as usual
[13:46] <Zuph> Dan-K2VOL: Where did we find the heptax this sprring?
[13:46] <NigeyMoby> Lol
[13:46] <Dan-K2VOL> and that means some will get dragged up beyond their safe pressure limit
[13:46] <NigeyMoby> Morning zuph
[13:46] <Zuph> eroomde: It's probably the timezone different :-p
[13:46] <Zuph> Morning, NigeyMoby
[13:46] <Zuph> *difference
[13:47] <Dan-K2VOL> Zuph from balloonkits.com, I'm back in contact with Gary Felix about that
[13:48] <Zuph> Dan-K2VOL: Awesome. The sooner we can get some to play with, the better!
[13:48] <Zuph> Unless anyone has some serious contacts in JAXA.
[13:49] <Dan-K2VOL> or that Gunze company in Japan that makes the film
[13:49] <Dan-K2VOL> we have balloon mylar with polyethylene backing already that we can heat seal for tests, Jynn brought it in for us
[13:50] <Zuph> Oh, awesome. Where did she get that?
[13:50] <Dan-K2VOL> it's only 18 inches wide, but it will make nice payload-less tetroons to test our math with, and our trigonometry too
[13:50] <Dan-K2VOL> on the theodolite method
[13:51] <Dan-K2VOL> not sure, was for some other project, unfortunately it's already got all the inane happy birthday signage printed on it
[13:51] <Dan-K2VOL> we need to get the tubing and sensors set up to do stretch testing though
[13:57] <Zuph> I still think RF abs. pressure sensors will be better for that.
[13:58] <Dan-K2VOL> build em up!
[13:58] <Dan-K2VOL> I mean on the lab table though
[13:58] <Zuph> Yeah, even on the lab table. I think the seam around the tube will end up always being a sore spot.
[13:58] <Dan-K2VOL> we need to measure the pressure and lift on the bench a bunch of times to get a stretch curve
[14:00] <Dan-K2VOL> well you're going to have to fill it somehow :-P
[14:00] <Dan-K2VOL> the seam around the fill tube is the one thing that the damn papers never mention
[14:01] <Dan-K2VOL> they show tiny pictures only
[14:01] <Dan-K2VOL> looks like a bycicle tire stem
[14:01] <Zuph> heh
[14:01] <NigeyMoby> Hmm
[14:02] <Dan-K2VOL> they port it through the side near the lower point of the tetrahedron, not in a seam
[14:02] <NigeyMoby> Not a shrader valve is it?
[14:02] <Zuph> Weird.
[14:02] <Dan-K2VOL> can't tell
[14:02] <Zuph> Not the choice I would make, for sure.
[14:02] <NigeyMoby> Def not
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[14:02] <Dan-K2VOL> yeah, I wish we could get our hands on a real modern meteo superpressure tetroon or sphere for some reverse engineering
[14:03] <NigeyMoby> Hey Steve
[14:03] <Dan-K2VOL> hi rocketboy
[14:03] <RocketBoy> hey
[14:03] <Zuph> Road trip to Palestine, TX! At night! With ski masks!
[14:04] <RocketBoy> just sent you guys an email
[14:04] <NigeyMoby> Oo
[14:04] <Dan-K2VOL> hahah
[14:04] <NigeyMoby> As u say that it gets through lol
[14:04] <RocketBoy> basicall a link to this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hr6x3r8phvE
[14:04] <Laurenceb> Dan-K2VOL: lots of fiddly cutting and sealing
[14:04] <Dan-K2VOL> great
[14:04] <Laurenceb> not a fun job
[14:05] <Dan-K2VOL> have to watch after work :-(
[14:06] <Dan-K2VOL> does anyone have any contacts with the met office or the EU equivalent?
[14:06] <Dan-K2VOL> to see where they may be buying constant-altitude sounding balloons from?
[14:07] <NigeyMoby> Tnx Steve, let me jump on the desktop to watch it.
[14:08] <RocketBoy> Dan-K2VOL: good idea - I'll see what I can dig up
[14:09] <Dan-K2VOL> I can ask in the USA but I'm pretty sure it's Aerostar, and Aerostar is not amateur friendly at all
[14:09] <Zuph> RocketBoy: That's a lot of stretch!
[14:09] <RocketBoy> yeah
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[14:10] <RocketBoy> I'm sure the pressure drop was due to creep
[14:10] <Dan-K2VOL> also I suppose one could just ask to watch a superpressure sounding balloon launch for 'educational purposes' and then go chase it and recover it :-)
[14:10] <NigeyS> so im confused, the pressure drops.. that is the balloon stretching, hence adding more volume ?
[14:10] <RocketBoy> yeah
[14:11] <RocketBoy> I think thats why the balloons go much higher than we expect
[14:11] <Dan-K2VOL> rocketboy, in a lot of the papers I've seen, they seem to want the balloon to stay under 5% volume stretch so that it will return elastically when it depressures at night
[14:11] <Dan-K2VOL> but that's determined by the stretch curve of the material and shape used
[14:11] <NigeyS> RocketBoy, fridays launch was an alt record for picos, and we know it kept on going for a while longer...
[14:11] <Dan-K2VOL> rocketboy I think you're right
[14:12] <Dan-K2VOL> they don't have enough weight
[14:12] <RocketBoy> yeah - adding weight seems to result in less differntal pressure
[14:12] <Dan-K2VOL> which is why you may need a tow balloon
[14:12] <RocketBoy> for the same height
[14:13] <Dan-K2VOL> yeah, really I think that there's not a single variable solution, the math is what is needed
[14:13] <RocketBoy> yeah - and some accurate measurements
[14:13] <Dan-K2VOL> bingo
[14:14] <RocketBoy> i'll get some more balloons and do some more testing - video both views of the balloon and an internal pressure sensor
[14:14] <NigeyS> steve ive got 5 here i can send you
[14:15] <RocketBoy> I'll probably use a mirror to get the side view
[14:15] <Dan-K2VOL> nice
[14:15] <Dan-K2VOL> rocketboy, can you deflate the balloon under control?
[14:15] <RocketBoy> NigeyS: no worries - I'm actually going to see if I can bulk buy them
[14:16] <NigeyS> oo, that would be handy, theyre getting costly at 7 quid each hehe
[14:16] <RocketBoy> Dan-K2VOL: yes I ca do that
[14:16] <Dan-K2VOL> great, did you see the procedure to determine where creep starts to happen?
[14:16] <RocketBoy> if you stick a tube past the valve
[14:17] <Dan-K2VOL> I'll share a google doc with you
[14:17] <RocketBoy> the incremental inflation/deflation thing?
[14:17] <Dan-K2VOL> yeah
[14:17] <Laurenceb> RocketBoy: you got 1psi inflation pressure?
[14:17] <RocketBoy> it seems quite hard to hit a particular pressure
[14:17] <Dan-K2VOL> might be difficult to do many times, but it will really help the math if we can get a pressure vs volume curve fit equation
[14:18] <Dan-K2VOL> that's ok, doesn't need to be exact, just lots of them
[14:18] <Laurenceb> is there creep before the burst pressure?
[14:18] <RocketBoy> Laurenceb: close to 0.8psi at burst
[14:18] <Dan-K2VOL> oh yes
[14:18] <RocketBoy> Laurenceb: oh yes
[14:18] <RocketBoy> loads
[14:18] <Laurenceb> hmm
[14:18] <Zuph> Dan-K2VOL: What RF chip did you use on that car remote again?
[14:18] <Laurenceb> any idea what pressure you need for no creep?
[14:19] <Dan-K2VOL> now in this instance 'creep' refers to the plasic becoming unable to return to it's original volume when depressurized
[14:19] <Dan-K2VOL> you determine that by the test rocketboy is working on
[14:19] <RocketBoy> its above 0.8KPa - but where I don't know yet
[14:19] <Laurenceb> no its where the balloon is floowed by pedophiles
[14:19] <Laurenceb> *followed
[14:20] <Dan-K2VOL> Rocketboy, it would be good to note the ambient air temperature and pressure when you do the tests (pressure from the weather report is probably close enough)
[14:21] <RocketBoy> I have a strong feeling that we get some form of creep runaway with the foil flights
[14:22] <RocketBoy> I'll use a BMP085 for the next set of tests - no probs with getting local air pressure with that - within a mb or so
[14:22] <Laurenceb> RocketBoy: yeah it seems likely
[14:22] <RocketBoy> its also go a tempreture sensor
[14:22] <Laurenceb> 0.8psi is quite a lot of pressure
[14:22] <Dan-K2VOL> I bet you're right. You can't exceed the creep limit, even if you achieve a float - the balloon will get too much volume at night to remain pressurized when the temp drops
[14:22] <Laurenceb> maybe glue some sort of thread over the top
[14:23] <RocketBoy> i'm thinking bluetac
[14:23] <Dan-K2VOL> nice
[14:23] <Laurenceb> might slip
[14:23] <Laurenceb> if theres a glue that doesnt hurt mylar
[14:23] <Dan-K2VOL> zuph it's the MicRF 405
[14:23] <RocketBoy> i think they are nylon
[14:23] <Laurenceb> then some sort of very thin thread
[14:23] <Laurenceb> oh yeah i read that
[14:24] <Laurenceb> lots of the party ones are nylon not mylar
[14:24] <Dan-K2VOL> they're nylon balloons?
[14:24] <Dan-K2VOL> that would explain the large amount of stretch I suppose
[14:24] <RocketBoy> think so
[14:24] <Laurenceb> mylar overwrap :P
[14:24] <Laurenceb> im jooking
[14:24] <RocketBoy> I think most "foil" party balloons are
[14:24] <NigeyS> RocketBoy, i have emailed qualatex to ask for the materials composition, and any tests they have carried out on it, so far nothing :(
[14:25] <Laurenceb> i hadnt realised tetroons could work
[14:25] <Dan-K2VOL> the stretch test will tell us if these will work at all for SP flight
[14:25] <Laurenceb> maybe mylar tetroon would work
[14:25] <Dan-K2VOL> Laurenceb mylar tetroon is exactly what all the academic papers studied
[14:26] <Laurenceb> yeah, easy to build too
[14:26] <Laurenceb> just need a way to glue it
[14:26] <Laurenceb> has anyone tested parcel tape at low temperature?
[14:26] <NigeyS> it doesnt do well in the freezer
[14:27] <RocketBoy> yeah - its easy to get mylar sheet - used for cannabis cabinets
[14:27] <Laurenceb> i know my duck tape was useless after being at -20C outside last winter
[14:27] <Laurenceb> haha yeah
[14:27] <Dan-K2VOL> Laurenceb you need to use thermal adhesive
[14:27] <Dan-K2VOL> or a mylar with polyethylene backing, which is thermally sealable
[14:28] <RocketBoy> I may just lob a tracker on some random stuff (home made tetroons) to see how ell it does
[14:28] <RocketBoy> well
[14:28] <Dan-K2VOL> I have the name of the adhesives that they found suitable in the past for mylar superpressure. They would apply the thermal glue to a strip of mylar, and let it cool, and then put that on the seam and heat seal that
[14:29] <RocketBoy> sounds like fun
[14:30] <Dan-K2VOL> I'll try to dig up the names tonight, I don't think they're available anymore, but I'm sure the adhesive industry would know modern equivalents
[14:30] <RocketBoy> I made a 1.5m tetroon once - plastic and 2" sellotape - seemed to hold together well - lots of lift
[14:31] <Laurenceb> scotch weld 76 goes down to -33C
[14:31] <Dan-K2VOL> rocketboy check pm
[14:32] <Laurenceb> or scotch weld 90 looks slightly better
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[14:37] <Laurenceb> ah i see
[14:37] <Laurenceb> 'natural rubber thermosetting tape'
[14:37] <Laurenceb> looks awesome stuff
[14:37] <Laurenceb> ive got to try this now XD
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[14:44] <Laurenceb> http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/1866104-silicone-fusion-tape-1-x15-1-608036-4.html
[14:45] <RocketBoy> and thats going to be OK with mylar - down to ?
[14:48] <RocketBoy> aggg its $10 per yard
[14:48] <Laurenceb> http://uk.farnell.com/lemark/rt24clear/kraken-silicone-tape/dp/1676617
[14:48] <Laurenceb> perfect.. maybe a little thick, looks like about 0.4mm
[14:49] <Laurenceb> datasheet doesnt have thickness, trying to work it out from photo
[14:49] <RocketBoy> thats more like it price wise
[14:49] <Laurenceb> and in uk
[14:49] <Laurenceb> -65° to +260° :-D
[14:50] <Laurenceb> "Exhaust repair" not sure id go that far
[14:50] <NigeyS> lol
[14:51] <Laurenceb> i guess if you cut it in half along the lenght itll be ok
[14:52] <Laurenceb> then just a cannabis place for the mylar XD
[14:53] <RocketBoy> looks a bit bigger than I remember http://imagebin.org/180564
[14:53] <RocketBoy> took me about 10mins to make
[14:54] <RocketBoy> what you need is a big clear table
[14:54] <RocketBoy> with a plastic surface
[14:54] <Laurenceb> nice
[14:55] <Dan-K2VOL> I would recommend doing an overnight pressure/lift test on any sealing technique used
[14:56] <Laurenceb> http://www.gaffatape.com/Kraken-Tape-Self-Fusing-Silicone/default.aspx
[14:56] <Laurenceb> i dont believe that
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[15:01] <RocketBoy> just looks like self-amagamating tape
[15:01] <RocketBoy> been using it years
[15:01] <Laurenceb> i dont think you could seal a burst water main like that
[15:01] <Laurenceb> unless its very low pressure
[15:01] <NigeyS> RocketBoy, do you have the link for the image of the qualatex valve ?
[15:02] <RocketBoy> hang on I'll do one
[15:03] <NigeyS> tnx :D saves me shredding another balloon lol
[15:04] <Laurenceb> http://www.1-hydroponics.co.uk/miscellaneous.htm
[15:05] <Laurenceb> haha its cannabis central
[15:05] <NigeyS> lmao awsome!
[15:06] <NigeyS> Mylar Reflective Sheeting 1m x 1.4m
[15:06] <NigeyS> 90-95% reflective Web: £3
[15:06] <NigeyS> cheap
[15:06] <priyesh> Upu: thanks for the blog post
[15:06] <UpuWork> hmm ?
[15:06] <priyesh> http://ava.upuaut.net/?p=191
[15:06] <NigeyS> hey priyesh, recovered from the weekend yet? :D
[15:06] <Laurenceb> doesnt say how thick
[15:06] <UpuWork> bloody hell I just hit post
[15:06] <Laurenceb> im guessing 25um - most of it is
[15:06] <UpuWork> how did you get it that quick ?
[15:07] <priyesh> NigeyS: just about.. then we get slashdotted :P
[15:07] <NigeyS> Laurenceb, to thick or ... ?
[15:07] <Laurenceb> i dont know
[15:07] <NigeyS> priyesh, that was me, sorry..lol
[15:07] <priyesh> UpuWork: got a ping from your site
[15:07] <UpuWork> oh
[15:07] <UpuWork> I really should work out how that works
[15:07] <priyesh> NigeyS: don't say sorry! it's amazing the response we got
[15:07] <priyesh> NigeyS: thanks for putting it up there
[15:07] Action: danielsaul cant find the video I took of the trakatron... :(
[15:07] <NigeyS> no problem :)
[15:08] <danielsaul> Video of the launch coming up though
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[15:08] <priyesh> UpuWork: yeah.. wordpress emailed me that you included a link from your site
[15:08] <UpuWork> super
[15:08] <UpuWork> wrote it from my point of view obviously
[15:08] <NigeyS> An anonymous reader writes with this report from Hackaday .... boo i did put my name in there! pfff
[15:08] <danielsaul> Oops, just realised Im not in #apexhab - sorry
[15:08] <priyesh> NigeyS: :P
[15:08] <UpuWork> you know OZ1SKY stumbled across the transmission and couldn't work out how to decode it ?
[15:08] <RocketBoy> NigeyS ://imagebin.org/180565
[15:09] <priyesh> UpuWork: i didn't
[15:09] <priyesh> how did he work out what it was?
[15:09] <NigeyS> brill thanks steve
[15:09] <UpuWork> yeah he replied to my mail
[15:09] <UpuWork> It was a blast to join in, and realy it was sheer luck i found out about it.
[15:09] <UpuWork> I was tuning around the 70cm band, when i heard something around 434.635.
[15:09] <UpuWork> I could hear it was rtty, but could not decode it.
[15:09] <UpuWork> So i went to the on4kst.org chat room and asked.
[15:09] <UpuWork> There i was lucky to get the information.
[15:10] <priyesh> wow. nice :)
[15:11] <NigeyS> i loved the way so many people came together to help, you dont see that to often nowadays
[15:11] <Laurenceb> RocketBoy: http://www.dupontteijinfilms.com/filmenterprise/Datasheet.asp?ID=302&Version=US
[15:11] <danielsaul> Yeh, we're going to have to try and help track some now :P
[15:12] <danielsaul> Shall have to steal the school yagi and a radio
[15:12] <Dan-K2VOL> if you're looking for films, mylar is generically known as BoPET or Biaxially Oriented Polyester
[15:13] <Laurenceb> looks like itd need quite thick mylar then
[15:13] <NigeyS> BoPET is much easier to say Dan..lol
[15:14] <RocketBoy> Laurenceb: strange they don't list cannabis production
[15:14] <Laurenceb> dunno how much a tetroon leads to stress concentration
[15:14] <RocketBoy> cos they seem to sell a lot of it on ebay
[15:14] <Dan-K2VOL> mylar isn't ideal due to it's pinholing tendency, Capran or Emblem brand multi-layer films that incorporate a Polyvinyl Alcolhol (PVA) or similar leak-stop layer are what you'll want eventually
[15:15] <Laurenceb> i guess a tetroon will creep a little until it more spherical
[15:15] <Laurenceb> *its
[15:15] <Laurenceb> interesting
[15:15] <Dan-K2VOL> careful with terms, creep and stretch are two different things
[15:15] <Dan-K2VOL> you're talking about stretch I think
[15:15] <Laurenceb> good point
[15:16] <Laurenceb> yes
[15:16] <Laurenceb> 28kpsi seems common for mylar
[15:17] <Laurenceb> i forget the equation for working out the sphere radius to material thickness from pressure to tensile strength
[15:17] <Laurenceb> with a cylinder its radius=thickness*tensile strength/pressure
[15:18] <SpeedEvil> Can't you just consider it as the intersection of two orthoganol hoops?
[15:19] <Laurenceb> radius=2*thickness*tensile strength/pressure
[15:19] <Laurenceb> for a sphere
[15:20] <Laurenceb> so 1.4m diameter balloon with 25um mylar and 1psi burst
[15:20] <Laurenceb> not bad
[15:21] <Laurenceb> of course, safety factor and stress concentration if its a tetroon
[15:29] <Laurenceb> need to work how much solar heating there is
[15:30] <Laurenceb> i guess its helped by pressure being much lower than 15psi at float altitude
[15:33] <Laurenceb> ok so a 1.4m diametyer 25um mylar could cruise at about 15Km
[15:33] <Laurenceb> in air pressure ~<2psi
[15:34] <Laurenceb> and spherical burst pressure would be ~1psi
[15:34] <Laurenceb> looks very doable
[15:34] <Laurenceb> even with a tetroon
[15:35] <RocketBoy> BBL
[15:43] <Dan-K2VOL> Laurenceb I think you're on the right track
[15:44] <Dan-K2VOL> Rocketboy let me know if you can sync those PDFs
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[15:51] <danielsaul> What songs are there involving balloons?
[15:52] <Dan-K2VOL> hmm not many good ones
[15:52] <Dan-K2VOL> up up and away, 99 red balloons
[15:53] <Dan-K2VOL> well the latter is much better than the former
[15:53] <danielsaul> Ok :) - trying to find a good song as a background to this launch video
[15:54] <UpuWork> Rick Astley ?
[15:55] <NigeyS> danielsaul, this may be more appropriate
[15:55] <NigeyS> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8onu9gGeikY&ob=av2n
[15:55] <NigeyS> :)
[15:56] <NigeyS> if you want a different version i can plug 1 of the turntables in and record it off the vinyl :D
[15:56] <UpuWork> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozZ_e8aueLs <- I can't remember what this sounds like no speakers here
[15:57] <danielsaul> Fly away sounds alright :)
[15:57] <NigeyS> of course, its a trance classic ! :D
[15:57] <Dan-K2VOL> there's always the south park version of sail away
[15:59] <NigeyS> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Sz1jb9p_YM
[16:00] <NigeyS> haha someone has to remember THAT track
[16:01] <danielsaul> Or, I just put the packet recordings in the background - RTTY sounds :D
[16:01] <NigeyS> lol
[16:01] <NigeyS> think there's only so much RTTY ones brain can handle!
[16:06] <SamSilver> how long will the video be?
[16:08] <danielsaul> Argh, our launch took so long... sitting through an hour of filling footage at the moment - might have to do another timelapse
[16:08] <fsphil> nyanrtty
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[16:08] <danielsaul> haha
[16:08] <SamSilver> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bi6sgW_y7Uc
[16:10] <Dan-K2VOL> haha fsphil
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[16:35] <danielsaul> priyesh: The video of our 2am walk is longer than the launch video... We really didnt get much sleep the night before :P
[16:35] <danielsaul> And wrong channel again
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[16:45] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[16:45] <Lunar_Lander> NigeyS did you get my E-Mail?
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[17:07] <logic> hi
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[17:17] Nick change: SamSilver -> SamSilver_
[17:18] <Lunar_Lander> hi GW8RAK Dutch-Mill
[17:18] <Lunar_Lander> NigeyMoby: ?
[17:18] somnium (02da03e1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.218.3.225) joined #highaltitude.
[17:19] <somnium> Hi all]
[17:19] <Dutch-Mill> Hi Lunar_Lander
[17:19] <Lunar_Lander> hi somnium
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[17:19] <fsphil-laptop> ohm sweet ohm
[17:19] <Lunar_Lander> hi fsphil-laptop daveake
[17:20] <daveake> hi all
[17:20] <somnium> i was wondering if anyone, i have followed the guide on how to connect the NTX2 to the arduino board, but and now trying to work out how to connect the antenna to the NTX2, could someone give me some quidence?
[17:21] <somnium> guidance*
[17:21] <Lunar_Lander> wait somnium
[17:22] <Lunar_Lander> the three unused pins are the output
[17:22] <Lunar_Lander> the central pin is the antenna connection, the two pins to the side are the antenna ground
[17:22] <daveake> Yep. Connect coax from those to the antenna and ground plane
[17:22] <Dutch-Mill> Lunar_Lander I saw you tracked ALPHA for a while over Germany what kind of antenna and radio did you use
[17:23] <daveake> Or I like to mount the NTX2 right next to the antenna so no need for coax
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[17:24] <NATO_> Hi, I have a question about uhf radio range.
[17:24] <somnium> Ive got that far, but i cant picture how to connect the to. I know this may seem a stupid question. But i have little experiance in the kind of thing.
[17:25] <SpeedEvil> To infinity and beyond!
[17:25] <Lunar_Lander> Dutch-Mill : I used a Yaesu FT-790R and a standard whip antenna
[17:25] <Lunar_Lander> and I was indoors
[17:25] <NATO_> I see most of you use a very low power uhf TX and get good range.
[17:26] <SpeedEvil> yes
[17:26] <NATO_> How would a ~1 watt TX using APRS/1200 baud AFSK do?
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[17:26] <jonsowman> it would be fine NATO_
[17:26] <NATO_> any guesses on range? (assuming same antennas)
[17:26] <jonsowman> but illegal in the UK
[17:26] <NATO_> US here.
[17:27] <jonsowman> NATO_: look up Free Space Path Loss
[17:28] <NATO_> I assume AFSK is much less efficient than the RTTY you guys are using?
[17:28] <Lunar_Lander> wb NigeyS
[17:28] <fsphil-laptop> There have been flights in the US using 300mw APRS on 2m
[17:28] <fsphil-laptop> quite a bit so NATO_
[17:28] <NigeyS> tnx Lunar_Lander
[17:28] <fsphil-laptop> but afsk is better supported
[17:28] <Dutch-Mill> Lunar_lander : oke thankz for the info
[17:29] <fsphil-laptop> you have a pretty good pre-existing network with aprs
[17:29] <NATO_> right. I don't have SSB radio, and don't plan to get one just for this.
[17:29] <NATO_> I'm going ultra cheap. FRS radio modified for the ham band (440 MHz)
[17:30] <NATO_> I don't plan to recover the equipment.
[17:30] <Lunar_Lander> you're welcome Dutch-Mill
[17:30] <Lunar_Lander> NigeyS got my mail?
[17:30] <NATO_> so, the existing aprs network wont help. I have to monitor it by myself.
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[17:31] <NigeyS> i did, and replied :)
[17:31] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[17:31] <fsphil-laptop> NATO_, you could probably get a radio for doing aprs pretty cheap
[17:32] <Lunar_Lander> thanks nigeyS :)!
[17:33] <nosebleedKT> hi NATO_
[17:34] <fsphil-laptop> the HX1 module from radiometrix can be got for 144.800 and also the US aprs frequency (which I forget now). it costs about 20 GBP
[17:34] <nosebleedKT> like afsk/aprs stuff?
[17:34] <NATO_> fsphil-laptop, I'm set on using this FRS radio. It's already modified. I'm going to test the range. Just wanted to get an idea first.
[17:34] <fsphil-laptop> aah
[17:34] <NATO_> nosebleedKT, yes, but on 70 cm.
[17:34] <nosebleedKT> thats 144.8?
[17:34] <fsphil-laptop> yea if you've got it working already then no point getting something else now
[17:35] <fsphil-laptop> 144.8 is the 2m band
[17:35] <nosebleedKT> 433?
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[17:35] <fsphil-laptop> that's in the 70cm band
[17:35] <NATO_> The mod just requires a diode between the PLL and PTT. make is transmit on the 440 MHz band. These radios are basically free here.
[17:35] <nosebleedKT> ok
[17:36] <fsphil-laptop> we've got similar radios on 446 MHz
[17:36] <fsphil-laptop> but that's outside the UK 70cm band
[17:36] <NATO_> is that ham frequency for you guys?
[17:36] Nick change: NIFTYLETTUCE -> niftylettuce
[17:36] <fsphil-laptop> we get 430-440mhz
[17:37] <fsphil-laptop> still a big band but no room for ATV
[17:38] <NATO_> FRS is at 467 MHz, but the IF is 21.4 MHz. If you make it to TX at the RX frequency, then it gets you right into the ham band.
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[17:38] <fsphil-laptop> what sort of power?
[17:39] <NATO_> Hmmm, if you found a 446 radio with a 10.7 MHz IF, you could make it TX at 437 using the same mod.
[17:40] <NATO_> ours are limited to 1/2 Watt.
[17:40] <fsphil-laptop> same with our 446 radios
[17:40] <NATO_> but more voltage and a better antenna makes a bid difference.
[17:40] <fsphil-laptop> on the ground that actually gives pretty good range
[17:40] <fsphil-laptop> there's nothing like a bit of altitude to help get the signal out :)
[17:41] <fsphil-laptop> I'm still amazed the 10mw signal was received 750km away on the weekends flight
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[17:41] <NATO_> I've used these at better than 12 miles across a valley. I'm curious how far it will go, line of sight.
[17:42] <fsphil-laptop> I imagine quite a bit, esp. with good antennas as you said
[17:42] <fsphil-laptop> so you're still doing aprs, just on a non-standard frequency?
[17:43] <NATO_> yes.
[17:43] <ksdj> I have a 300mW NTX transmitter for 144.800 MHZ and plan to use it with an OpenTracker APRS module, into a J-pole antenna. Anyone have any clues about what range to expect? I figure the signal should be picked up by quite a lot of digipeaters on the ground?
[17:43] <fsphil-laptop> ksdj, the last project to use that got about 300km iirc
[17:44] <ksdj> I guess so. That's the advantage of being a fair bit above ground :-)
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[17:44] <GW8RAK_> Evening Lunar_Lander
[17:44] <fsphil-laptop> http://www.trackuino.org/2010/04/testing-radiometrix-hx1-radio.html
[17:44] <NATO_> BTW, are there any good stand-alone APRS to google earth/google maps programs out there?
[17:45] <Lunar_Lander> ksdj : I could hear a 10mW transmitter at 36000 m altitude when it was 260 km away with a whip antenna indoors
[17:45] <fsphil-laptop> this mentions someone getting 600km with it
[17:45] <ksdj> I have a 1W PMR radio as well, but that's on a non-standard frequency so will not get picked up by other APRS stations. I assume the 300mW 144.800 module would be the best choice then?
[17:45] <Lunar_Lander> how are you GW8RAK_?
[17:46] <ksdj> NATO_: I'm looking into that as well, I believe most people are using AGWtracker which can use pre-installed mapping software (from CD) such as MapPoint.
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[17:46] <NATO_> since I'm on a non-standard frequency, it won't be put on the aprs-is.
[17:47] <NATO_> ksdj, that's what I'm trying to avoid.
[17:47] <ksdj> Why?
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[17:47] <fsphil-laptop> you could setup an internet gateway on the non-standard frequency
[17:48] <NATO_> Google earth is free. it seems like it should be simple to take aprs packets and translate them to a google earth kml file.
[17:48] <NATO_> It just seems simpler.
[17:48] <ksdj> NATO: It would indeed. You could log all APRS packets and then translate them into KML format.
[17:49] <ksdj> Ofcourse that doesn't give you a map position during the flight.
[17:49] <NATO_> right. I'm using AGW soundcard modem.
[17:49] <NATO_> well, you would have to have an internet connection.
[17:50] <ksdj> Watch out with AGW, it has a rather short packet buffer so you could loose the start of your flight if you don't watch out.
[17:50] <fsphil-laptop> as a habit I now record the radio signal from my flights
[17:50] <fsphil-laptop> in case of software crashes
[17:50] <NATO_> OK. I'm just so used to using google maps for navigation, that going back to something like mappoint is painful
[17:50] <ksdj> If you have like a 3G dongle on your laptop that would be ideal. But depending on your operator/data plan downloading Google maps could cost.
[17:51] <ksdj> fsphil: Sounds interesting. How do you record it? With software like Audacity?
[17:51] <fsphil-laptop> ksdj, on linux so I use arecord - but audacity would do just as well
[17:51] <NATO_> There a google maps caching utilities available, I believe so you could download most maps ahead of time.
[17:52] <ksdj> NATO: I agree, but the disadvantage of Google maps/earth is that you need to be online..
[17:52] <ksdj> fsphil: I'll have to keep that idea in mind. Thanks.
[17:52] <Lunar_Lander> as a matter of fact fsphil-laptop I recorded 1h 18m of the ALPHA signal by the function in dl-fldigi
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[17:52] <NATO_> fsphil-laptop, that's a good idea. What sampling rate would be appropriate?
[17:53] <fsphil-laptop> I use 8000hz, as it's an SSB signal. for fm/aprs I'd probably go for 12000hz
[17:53] <fsphil-laptop> or since disk space is cheap, 48000hz :)
[17:54] <NATO_> .wav or compressed?
[17:54] <ksdj> What size of balloons do you guys typically use? 2000g?
[17:54] <fsphil-laptop> .wav during the flight, then I use flac to compress it afterwards
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[17:56] <fsphil-laptop> it's a pretty good mix of balloon sizes here
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[17:56] <Lunar_Lander> yeah, the best mix
[17:56] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[17:56] <fsphil-laptop> the last one was 2000g
[17:56] <fsphil-laptop> I've used 1000g for my first three flights
[17:56] <Lunar_Lander> did we have people use Kaymont's 3000?
[17:57] <fsphil-laptop> I think rob flew a 3000g once
[17:57] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[17:57] <daveake> Steve did recently
[17:57] <Lunar_Lander> I would still be interested if Kaymont would make a 4500
[17:57] <NATO_> Thanks for your help, guys.
[17:57] <ksdj> I'm thinking of purchasing from http://www.flow-tronic.com/portal/products/aerology/balloons/en
[17:58] <ksdj> Their balloons come in sizes between 30 and 300g
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[17:58] <ksdj> Pretty big range.
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[17:59] <fsphil-laptop> aah totex
[17:59] <ksdj> Well, gotta go. Thanks for the quick chat guys.
[17:59] <fsphil-laptop> later ksdj
[17:59] <ksdj> later
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[18:09] <cuddykid> hi all
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[18:10] <cuddykid> I now have a fair amount of my hab stuff at uni :)
[18:11] <somnium> If on the payload, i have the antenna pointing directly downwards, wont this simple dig into the ground/ break when it hits the ground and therefore we will lose signal??
[18:13] <Dan-K2VOL> somnium you will lose signal by being close to the ground anyway
[18:13] <Dan-K2VOL> until you get very close to it with trackers
[18:13] <Dan-K2VOL> that's why a satellite or cell phone based backup tracker is recommended
[18:14] <Dan-K2VOL> like FindMeSpot
[18:14] <Dan-K2VOL> or a GPRS tracker
[18:15] <cuddykid> I cannot recommend a gprs backup tracker enough!
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[18:27] <Lunar_Lander> hi Dan-K2VOL
[18:31] <Lunar_Lander> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8uJxLLYQ50 in the first second, did he put the components on a copper board?
[18:32] <fsphil-laptop> layers of copper boards
[18:32] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[18:32] <Lunar_Lander> won't that conduct everywhere?
[18:32] <fsphil-laptop> actually just got a better look
[18:32] <fsphil-laptop> it's a normal board, pcb tracks
[18:32] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[18:32] <fsphil-laptop> the rest of the copper must be a ground fill
[18:34] <Lunar_Lander> yea
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[18:35] <Lunar_Lander> I'm still thinking about that charge sensoer
[18:35] <Lunar_Lander> sensor
[18:35] <Lunar_Lander> and the electric field sensor and so on
[18:35] <Lunar_Lander> I got the schematics
[18:38] <Lunar_Lander> so it should be possible to build one, right?
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[18:54] <Lunar_Lander> hi Paradoxial on4bds
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[18:54] <daveake> Hmmm....bought a car holder for the netbook, and the box carries this interesting advice: "Use your netbook easy and free while driving"
[18:55] <Lunar_Lander> LOL
[18:55] <daveake> Presumably for loading up www.icrashedmycar.com ....
[18:55] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[18:55] <daveake> I see that url actually exists :)
[18:57] <Lunar_Lander> and we got belgian visitors
[18:57] <Lunar_Lander> :)
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[19:02] <Laurenceb_> http://californianearspaceproject.com/
[19:02] <Laurenceb_> oh dear
[19:03] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
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[19:06] <Lunar_Lander> finally the record is back in amateur hands
[19:07] <fsphil-laptop> not counting the japanese flight anyway :p
[19:09] <fsphil-laptop> 53km :)
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[19:11] <fsphil-laptop> http://www.isas.jaxa.jp/e/special/2003/yamagami/index.shtml
[19:13] <Randomskk> who here's made the ublox 6 breakouts?
[19:13] <Randomskk> or rather, designed?
[19:13] <Randomskk> Darkside: UpuWork: ^?
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[19:34] <fsphil-laptop> hmmm... http://habhub.org//predict/#!/uuid=d2cb31b6c09385798a2d4337c99af724961074a2
[19:37] <GW8RAK> Interesting prediction phil
[19:37] <fsphil-laptop> it is!
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[19:37] <fsphil-laptop> if it floated, it would probably continue south east
[19:37] <fsphil-laptop> towards europe
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[19:41] <NATO_> Does anyone know of any active projects such as this one: http://www.gpsboomerang.com/
[19:41] <somnium> how would i go about connecting a Lassen® iQ to an arduino ?
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[19:41] <fsphil-laptop> NATO_, there's the balloonerang (sp?) the ihab project are doing
[19:42] <NATO_> is there a website for that?
[19:42] <priyesh> somnium: have a look at how apex did it github.com/apexhab/apex-alpha
[19:43] <fsphil-laptop> NATO_, http://www.ihabproject.com/ -- not sure how much of the glider is documented yet
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[19:43] <fsphil-laptop> it's still in development
[19:44] <priyesh> somnium: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16643426/gps.PNG
[19:45] <NATO_> phil, thanks. that's perfect.
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[20:13] <Laurenceb_> NATO_: lanl.gov eh?
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[20:16] <Lunar_Lander> hi Paradoxial
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[20:47] <Paradoxial> Hi Lunar
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[21:26] <Lunar_Lander> how are you Paradoxial?
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[22:15] <nickolai> hey fsphil / fsphil-laptop
[22:15] <nickolai> sry i didn't see your message earlier my computer must have turned on by accident while i was away
[22:15] <nickolai> things went well in general, we did recover the payload and some great photos (one of which is now the background on my lockscreen :D)
[22:16] <fsphil-laptop> sweet!
[22:16] <nickolai> here's the fun part: the parachute attachment point failed! the payload fell to the ground without a parachute from 29km
[22:16] <fsphil-laptop> we got some data on the map
[22:16] <fsphil-laptop> eek!
[22:16] <nickolai> and everything survived intact
[22:16] <nickolai> speaking of the map...
[22:17] <nickolai> i saw links for alpha's project page, how can i get mine to display links like that?
[22:17] <juxta> nickolai, on the tracker you mean?
[22:17] <nickolai> yea on spacenear
[22:17] <fsphil-laptop> it did nickolai
[22:18] <juxta> next time you have a launch on just ask someone to put them on for you
[22:18] <fsphil-laptop> you mean spacenear.us?
[22:18] <nickolai> yea
[22:18] <nickolai> i didn't see them...
[22:18] <fsphil-laptop> yea PRHAL is on there
[22:18] <fsphil-laptop> was that yours?
[22:18] <fsphil-laptop> I could have been following the wrong one :)
[22:18] <nickolai> yea did it have a link to my website? nickolai.me?
[22:18] <fsphil-laptop> aah no, was just watching spacenear.us
[22:18] <juxta> nickolai, no - that needs to be manually added
[22:18] <fsphil-laptop> aaaah
[22:18] <fsphil-laptop> gotcha now, you mean a link on the title
[22:19] Action: fsphil-laptop was just fighting gnomes, is a bit tired
[22:19] <nickolai> yea i would want people to be able to go somewhere for more info, since we had quite a few of the group's friends tracking us - i'd like for them to know it was recovered
[22:20] <juxta> nickolai, normally we just put a link up in the title when someone has an active flight
[22:20] Action: SpeedEvil is shipping watches across the galaxy on his phone.
[22:20] <fsphil-laptop> that's not a sentence I expected to see today
[22:20] <nickolai> you mean how apex alpha has a link?
[22:20] <juxta> yep
[22:20] <juxta> just like thatr
[22:21] <juxta> if you look again in a few days time it'll most likely have a link for whoever next launches
[22:21] <nickolai> how long do launches stay up there?
[22:21] <juxta> until someone else clears the tracker normally
[22:21] <juxta> ie until someone else needs it for their launch
[22:22] <juxta> you can always generate maps and host them locally, that's what I do
[22:22] <nickolai> i'm not sure i'm following you, do they have to clear it manually? since it can host multiple lauches simultaneously
[22:22] <nickolai> ooo how do i host it locally?
[22:23] <juxta> yes, it's manually cleared
[22:23] <juxta> http://projecthorus.org/?page_id=663
[22:23] <juxta> if you have a look there, we've got most of our launches up
[22:23] <juxta> you can download a google earth KMZ or view the path in your browser
[22:23] <fsphil-laptop> hehe, Sacrificed
[22:23] <juxta> :)
[22:24] <nickolai> so it seems people have pretty good success with the ntx2 at 300 baud?
[22:25] <fsphil-laptop> yea
[22:25] <jonsowman> 675 odd km from alpha?
[22:25] <juxta> yeah, we use 300b pretty much exclusively
[22:25] <fsphil-laptop> something mad like that jonsowman
[22:25] <juxta> jonsowman, I think it was even more
[22:25] <fsphil-laptop> the limit is still geography at 300 baud
[22:25] <nickolai> how do u mean/.
[22:26] <nickolai> ?
[22:26] <jonsowman> the earth is round
[22:26] <jonsowman> it's very annoying.
[22:26] <Lunar_Lander> hi nickolai
[22:26] <nickolai> no it's not
[22:26] <NigeyS> its flat damm you !
[22:26] <fsphil-laptop> lol
[22:26] <nickolai> :D
[22:26] <juxta> if you get lucky then ducting helps out
[22:26] <Lunar_Lander> btw
[22:26] <Lunar_Lander> I got something for you
[22:26] <nickolai> hi Lunar_Lander
[22:26] <Lunar_Lander> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pZrTqxGxoY&feature=related
[22:26] <nickolai> so you're saying you can go higher than 300 baud?
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[22:26] <jonsowman> i seem to remember something doing 600 a while back
[22:26] <fsphil-laptop> 1200 baud was done recently
[22:27] <fsphil-laptop> well, a mix of 600 and 1200
[22:27] <jonsowman> ah
[22:27] <jonsowman> maybe that's what i'm thinking of
[22:27] <fsphil-laptop> 1200 needed _very_ careful tuning
[22:27] <fsphil-laptop> I wouldn't recommend it
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[22:27] <nickolai> i got something for u too Lunar_Lander, well for everyone I guess: http://www.nickolai.me/1/post/2011/10/launch-2-successful.html
[22:27] <fsphil-laptop> 600 worked well though
[22:27] <juxta> nickolai, sure, but if it's just for telemetry then you won't gain much
[22:27] <nickolai> well, 300baud will be way better than 50 baud
[22:28] <juxta> nice pic nickolai :)
[22:28] <jonsowman> getting 720km odd out of 50 baud took careful fiddling with shift and rx filter bandwidth
[22:28] <nickolai> thanks juxta :)
[22:28] <fsphil-laptop> ooh nice
[22:28] <fsphil-laptop> earth really is nice up there
[22:28] <jonsowman> very pretty
[22:28] <juxta> the first time we experimented with higher than 50b I had the baud rate slowly increment as the balloon ascended
[22:28] <juxta> but everything worked fine anyway
[22:29] <nickolai> as you can see, indiana is pretty empty :P
[22:29] <fsphil-laptop> my first flight was a backup, so I thought 300 baud was worth the risk :)
[22:29] <jonsowman> juxta: surely you want to start high and decrease with increasing range?
[22:29] <nickolai> nice to know, i plan to switch away from ntx2 anyway - the receiver is way too expensive
[22:29] <nickolai> or you could have it alternate, send a few messages at 50 and then a few at 300
[22:30] <fsphil-laptop> not much alternative to the receiver unless you're doing FM
[22:30] <jonsowman> yeah, AFSK would work
[22:30] <jonsowman> then you can use an FM receiver
[22:30] <juxta> jonsowman, I let it get to 10km, so that we had good coverage from a bunch of folks, then experimented, and returned to 50b beyond 21ish km & for descent
[22:30] <jonsowman> the transmit hardware is a bit more complex but not too bad
[22:30] <jonsowman> juxta: fair enough
[22:31] <jonsowman> alpha would have been fine at 600 baud up to say 350km, then drop to 300 baud until 600km, then down to 50 from then
[22:31] <jonsowman> for example
[22:31] <juxta> ah right
[22:31] <jonsowman> be interesting to try
[22:31] <jonsowman> how are things with you anyway juxta? haven't seen you in here in a good while
[22:32] <juxta> I think we had some 600-700k decodes on 300b in the last few flights
[22:32] <nickolai> i'll check those out, thanks jonsowman
[22:32] <juxta> but those were by guys with serious rx setups
[22:32] <jonsowman> and Upu managed 677km with a colinear
[22:32] <jonsowman> (and a hill)
[22:33] <juxta> yeah not too bad jonsowman - was snooping through your (and rjw's) github repo again the other day, I had to move the website and the hourly predictor etc :)
[22:33] <russss> would be nice to have a periodic uplink to keep it upgraded to high bitrate
[22:33] <russss> then if it loses the uplink it falls back to 50baud
[22:33] <jonsowman> russss: that's a good idea
[22:33] <jonsowman> juxta: hehe cool
[22:33] <juxta> couldnt remember how to build the binary
[22:34] <jonsowman> cmake
[22:34] <juxta> instructions went AWOL
[22:34] <juxta> yeah, got it in the end :P
[22:34] <jonsowman> cool :)
[22:34] <russss> you could also use the uplink to control duty cycle. So if you end up with an accidental floater you can scale the transmission rate back
[22:34] <jonsowman> many cool things that you can do with uplink
[22:35] <juxta> we're playing with DTMF uplink at the moment
[22:35] <jonsowman> that sounds cool
[22:35] <jonsowman> going well>?
[22:35] <juxta> heh. well I only picked up the IC's last night
[22:35] <juxta> so early days yet ;p
[22:35] <jonsowman> :)
[22:36] <juxta> alrighty, 9am. I had better get to it
[22:36] <jonsowman> catch you later
[22:36] <juxta> cya :)
[22:36] <fsphil-laptop> 23:36 .. just stopping it :)
[22:39] <Lunar_Lander> cool nickolai!!
[22:39] <Lunar_Lander> nickolai : btw I was able to receive ALPHA
[22:39] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[22:39] <nickolai> thanks Lunar
[22:39] <nickolai> was ALPHA your payload?
[22:39] <Lunar_Lander> no, of the Apex team
[22:40] <Lunar_Lander> it drifted from England across Holland, Germany and Poland
[22:40] <nickolai> ok you just helped track it? cool!
[22:40] <nickolai> any news on that payload? did anyone find it?
[22:41] <jonsowman> not yet...
[22:41] <nickolai> shame that
[22:41] <nickolai> probably hanging from a tree somewhere in Poland...
[22:42] <nickolai> btw, what's up with that video Lunar?
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[23:00] <W0OTM> Hello
[23:01] <SpeedEvil> 0
[23:02] <fsphil-laptop> salut
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[23:06] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[23:08] <Lunar_Lander> and good night :U)
[23:08] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[23:09] <fsphil-laptop> adios :)
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[23:39] <nickolai> anyone know what the green and blue circles are on spacenear?
[23:40] <natrium42> 0 degree and 5 degree horizons
[23:41] <nickolai> i.e. anyone inside the green circle should be able to hear my payload?
[23:41] <natrium42> blue one too, if nothing obstructs their horizon
[23:41] <SpeedEvil> Green is fairly reliable
[23:41] <natrium42> also depends on altitude above sea level
[23:41] <SpeedEvil> blue is much less so.
[23:42] <natrium42> nickolai: did you launch today?
[23:42] <nickolai> i would think so, that blue circle is quite large for my last known payload position (PRHAL)
[23:42] <nickolai> yesterday
[23:43] <nickolai> http://www.nickolai.me/1/post/2011/10/launch-2-successful.html
[23:45] <natrium42> ah, awesome
[23:46] <natrium42> when i added the 5 degree horizon, i was suprised by how much of a difference 5 degrees made
[23:46] <natrium42> but it makes sense if you look at the tangent triangle
[23:49] <NigeyS> ok not searching google images for "balloon" ever again :|
[23:50] <natrium42> lol
[23:50] <natrium42> poor NigeyS
[23:50] <NigeyS> not the balloon i was expecting!
[00:00] --- Tue Oct 25 2011