highaltitude.log.20111017

[00:00] <WB8ELK> yes...I had 5" styrofoam balls on the ends and they worked well
[00:00] <stilldavid> I might hit up the craft store tomorrow as well then& I've got some sections of carbon fiber poles for kites already
[00:01] <WB8ELK> I got the idea from Joe Mayenschein of NSS in WI....he's been doing it that way for years
[00:01] <stilldavid> I remember something on probably the gpsl mailing list about that
[00:01] <WB8ELK> nice passive solution and no complicated gyros ets
[00:01] <WB8ELK> etc
[00:01] <Dan-K2VOL> it looks great
[00:01] <stilldavid> will definitely do that, then.
[00:01] <fsphil-laptop> but... gizmos need a home too
[00:02] <stilldavid> WB8ELK: did you fly the gopros in the payload container or in their cases outside the payload somewhere/
[00:02] <Dan-K2VOL> well, it looks like an engineering disaster, but the video looks great :-P
[00:04] <stilldavid> http://imgur.com/bkTHu
[00:04] <stilldavid> grabbed a bunch of those from the hardware store
[00:04] <stilldavid> they're meant to go over outdoor faucets, but they're super lightweight and durable and just about the right size
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[00:07] <WB8ELK> I carved out a tight fitting hole in the styrofoam....and made a foamcore plate that glued into the front of the hole.....then just slid the camera into the hole with it's lens protruding out the foamcore hole and also had access holes for the button and the LED
[00:07] <WB8ELK> that way no chance of fogging up
[00:07] <WB8ELK> and ligher weight
[00:07] <WB8ELK> lighter
[00:07] <fsphil-laptop> I was debating with myself about using or not using the enclosure
[00:07] <fsphil-laptop> interesting that you fly them naked
[00:07] <stilldavid> this was the box from my first payload: http://www.flickr.com/photos/stilldavid/4604529504/in/photostream/
[00:07] <WB8ELK> if you use the enclosure, get the dessicant inserts
[00:08] <stilldavid> gopro on the top-right
[00:08] <Dan-K2VOL> Bill, david, Anthony is uploading the videos form the conference http://ukhas.org.uk/general:ukhasconference
[00:08] <fsphil-laptop> yea
[00:08] <WB8ELK> they work great nake
[00:08] <WB8ELK> naked
[00:08] <Dan-K2VOL> oh good idea on the dessicants
[00:08] <fsphil-laptop> I suppose I'm worried about it ending up in a tree for three weeks again
[00:08] <Dan-K2VOL> or lost entirely
[00:09] <WB8ELK> just make sure the lens sticks out beyond the edge of the box since it's very wide angle...one fellow has replaced that lens with a narrower field of view...saw that on a website
[00:09] <WB8ELK> I had one in the woods for 3 weeks and 12 inches of rain later....it still works just fine
[00:09] <stilldavid> yeah, I kept shaving that box down; I didn't realize it was such a wide fov
[00:09] <fsphil-laptop> it is that
[00:09] <stilldavid> 127° at 1080, 170° at 720
[00:09] <WB8ELK> that's why I put a thin faceplate glued into the styrofoam box
[00:09] <fsphil-laptop> the lens can be replaced? I didn't know that
[00:10] <fsphil-laptop> ooh that's neat WB8ELK -- so even naked, they're pretty hard?
[00:10] <WB8ELK> it's not real easy since the orig lens has some locktite on it
[00:10] <WB8ELK> but once you get it out there is a lens that will fit the threads but you have to be carefut not to crossthread it
[00:11] <stilldavid> wow, they come with a bunch more accessories now.
[00:11] <fsphil-laptop> yea - nice external battery pack now
[00:12] <stilldavid> I just wire in the 6AH lipos
[00:12] <WB8ELK> At 1080p I recommend the external battery pack....it'll get you 3.5 hours battery life...with the stock camera it's about 1.7 hours and may not get the full flight and landing
[00:12] <WB8ELK> Also use 32 gB SDHC card at 1080p for full record time
[00:12] <fsphil-laptop> what size of sd cards would be needed to film a typical 2 hour flight?
[00:12] <stilldavid> I can fill up a 32GB card with a 6AH lipo
[00:13] <stilldavid> I think a 16 gig card will work at 1080p for 2 hours or so
[00:13] <WB8ELK> The GoPro with a 32 Gig card and the external backpack battery will go about 3.5 hours or so....16 gig is pushing it for getting the whole flight
[00:14] <fsphil-laptop> my gopro flight will be quick -- I don't want it going too far
[00:14] <fsphil-laptop> I'd really like it back :)
[00:14] <WB8ELK> It's always fun to watch the birds chirping in the treetops and watching the chase team 70 feet below scratching their heads trying to climb the trees...makes for great video
[00:14] <WB8ELK> then use a 600 gram balloon filled for about 1200 ft/min ascent
[00:14] <fsphil-laptop> yea
[00:15] <fsphil-laptop> I've got a 1000g left, will be filling it for a fairly quick ascent
[00:15] <WB8ELK> I still get 93,000 feet on a 600 gram with about 7 pounds of lift
[00:15] <fsphil-laptop> and there'll be a nichrome cut-down
[00:15] <fsphil-laptop> just in case
[00:15] <WB8ELK> We use an archery Bow-Trigger at the university....activated by a servo
[00:16] <WB8ELK> for the nichrome cutdown...make sure the line doesn't move much or it will break the wire
[00:16] <fsphil-laptop> yea
[00:16] <WB8ELK> I use those crimp ring lugs (uncrimped) to guide the string through the nichrome wire and keep it in place with knots
[00:17] <Dan-K2VOL> that's a good idea
[00:17] <WB8ELK> the rope goes through the crimp portion of the ring lugs and are bolted in place with the ring part
[00:17] <fsphil-laptop> very
[00:17] <fsphil-laptop> so you've done these balloon things before then?
[00:17] <WB8ELK> It worked well
[00:17] <Dan-K2VOL> :-P
[00:17] <stilldavid> hah
[00:17] <WB8ELK> LOL....that's a good one
[00:17] <WB8ELK> for 24 years now
[00:18] <WB8ELK> and about 400 flights
[00:18] <Dan-K2VOL> whew finally finished the blog entry on my talk - http://whitestarballoon.com/
[00:18] <WB8ELK> Here's some video from my very first few flights...first ones in the US - http://home.hiwaay.net/~bbrown/arhab20th.htm
[00:19] <fsphil-laptop> 1 year and 3 flights :)
[00:19] <fsphil-laptop> 66,666% success rate
[00:19] <WB8ELK> Since I was the first to fly a BalloonSat like that in the US...I had to figure it all out myself....these first few launches are great for bloopers and how NOT to launch a balloon
[00:19] <Darkside> WB8ELK: so are you using a crystal ref and a pll to do all your signal generation?
[00:19] <Dan-K2VOL> hehe
[00:19] <WB8ELK> my first flight had 2 ounces of lift when I ran out of helium
[00:19] <Darkside> and just fiddling with the dividers and multiplers to do the modulation?
[00:20] <WB8ELK> I use a VCXO as the reference to the Cypress CY22393 synth
[00:20] <WB8ELK> 16.384 MHz VCXO
[00:20] <Darkside> the synth can be configured precise enough to do FSK modulation?
[00:20] <Darkside> and dominoex?
[00:20] <WB8ELK> and just adjust the control voltage on the VCXO with the output of A DAC
[00:20] <Darkside> ohhhhh
[00:20] <stilldavid> that second video looks familiar :)
[00:20] <Darkside> rightyo
[00:20] <WB8ELK> not only precise enough for FSK...but will do 10 Hz MSFK like in DominoEX
[00:21] <Darkside> so you can do FSK based modes, and FM on that
[00:21] <WB8ELK> but I put a pot inline to fine adjust the step size
[00:21] <WB8ELK> yes and can use it for FM modulation on VHF
[00:21] <Darkside> thats *very* cool
[00:21] <Darkside> i see you like your system-on-chips :-)
[00:21] <WB8ELK> actually have one doing 10m FM and one on 6m FM
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[00:21] <WB8ELK> yes....the PSoC has some nice analog stuff onboard
[00:21] <Darkside> very interesting
[00:22] <Darkside> we want to get away from teh radiometrix modules
[00:22] <WB8ELK> My first few flights were in 20 plus knot winds
[00:22] <Darkside> theres an analog devices chip i've been looking at and want to use
[00:23] <WB8ELK> the problem with some of the Analog Device chips is that the output is 0 dBm or less....the output of the Cypress CY22393 is 13 dBm (20 milliwatts)
[00:23] <Darkside> the one i'm looking at is 13dBm
[00:23] <WB8ELK> I've flown it successfully with just the synth and a filter to an antenna with decent signals at 20 mW
[00:23] <WB8ELK> which one is that?
[00:23] <Darkside> just checing
[00:23] <WB8ELK> that would be a good one
[00:23] <Darkside> ADF7021
[00:23] <Darkside> its a trasnceiver
[00:23] <Darkside> transceiver*
[00:23] <WB8ELK> I'll have to check that one out
[00:24] <Darkside> does FSK, MFSK, etc
[00:24] <Darkside> i was thinking of doing FSK downlink, and either FSK or OOK uplink
[00:24] <Darkside> for a cutdown
[00:24] <WB8ELK> the other reason I used the CY22393 is that is was about $6
[00:24] <Darkside> that amp you have on the output of that board you made
[00:24] <WB8ELK> and can do OOK modes like Hellscreiber as well
[00:24] <Darkside> is that a fully wideband amp? or do you need to tune it for your frequencies
[00:24] <Darkside> i mean, re-tune it for each frequency you use
[00:24] <WB8ELK> tuned for each band at the moment
[00:25] <Darkside> so completely different inductors and things i guess
[00:25] <Darkside> hrm
[00:25] <WB8ELK> I use class-E with a 2N7000 for 20m, 30m and 40m....a 2N4427 for higher freqs class-C
[00:25] <Darkside> cool
[00:25] <Darkside> i've done a 2N7000 based Class-E for 40m before
[00:25] <Darkside> that was fun
[00:25] <WB8ELK> yes that's what I'm doing currently....but may stack them and RF switch the filters in my next rendition
[00:26] <Darkside> tuning the amps is a pain
[00:26] <Darkside> what are you driving your class E amps with?
[00:26] <WB8ELK> I get 1 watt out of a 2N7000 driven directly the 13dbm synth
[00:26] <Darkside> i thought you had to square wave drive them
[00:26] <Darkside> or is 20dBm big enough to drive it straight into full-on?
[00:26] <WB8ELK> and put a heatsink on the 2N7000...the output of the synth is square wave
[00:27] <Darkside> OH!
[00:27] <Darkside> *nice*
[00:27] <WB8ELK> I bias the input to the 2N7000
[00:27] <WB8ELK> just to the point of turn-on
[00:27] <Darkside> ok
[00:27] <Darkside> wait, you need a heatsink?
[00:27] <Darkside> i never needed one on my amplifier
[00:28] <Darkside> it was efficient enough that it didn't need it
[00:28] <WB8ELK> when you are on the ground with 50 feet of wire antenna...the SWR goes way up
[00:28] <WB8ELK> and will get hot
[00:28] <Darkside> ahh :-)
[00:28] <Darkside> i had a matched antenna
[00:28] <WB8ELK> Mine was matched for flight but when it lays on the ground...or even 1 foot high...it shift the resonance several MHz
[00:28] <Darkside> yeah i bet
[00:28] <WB8ELK> 3 feet tables is best
[00:28] <WB8ELK> are
[00:29] <WB8ELK> that will get you close
[00:29] <Darkside> i remember setting up a dipole on the ground
[00:29] <Darkside> that was fun
[00:29] <WB8ELK> but you also have to plan on it all crumpled up on the ground after landing to keep it from burning up the final
[00:29] <Darkside> 40m dipole...
[00:29] <Darkside> yeah thats a good point
[00:29] <Darkside> maybe turn off the amp when it hits the ground?
[00:29] <WB8ELK> I've flown 40m, 30m, 20m, 10m, 6m, 2m, 434 MHz
[00:29] <Darkside> or just bypass the amp
[00:30] <Darkside> WB8ELK: you've done ATV, right?
[00:30] <WB8ELK> You want it to keep transmitting after hitting the ground...if it lands in a tree (which mine typically do)....it can be heard thousands of miles away
[00:30] <Darkside> hmm
[00:30] <Darkside> ours don't often land in trees :P
[00:30] <WB8ELK> I found out where my payload had landed from a report from 2200 miles away in CA on a 40m flight
[00:30] <Darkside> too much open field
[00:31] <WB8ELK> we end up in Deliverance country most of the time...banjo music and chainsaws
[00:31] <Darkside> hahaha
[00:31] <WB8ELK> My first flight had ATV on it in 1987 and many many times since
[00:31] <Darkside> 70cm ATC?
[00:31] <Darkside> atv*
[00:31] <Darkside> or 23cm
[00:31] <WB8ELK> 70cm yes
[00:31] <Darkside> because we're running up against theoritical limits on 23cm ATV
[00:31] <WB8ELK> also 915 MHz and 23 cm and 2.4 GHz
[00:31] <Darkside> with path loss
[00:32] <griffonbot> @LVL1WhiteStar: White Star Dan Bowen's UKHAS Superpressure talk info now online: http://t.co/Gz8kYpGV a Also other talks online: http://t.co/ZKZS1vo7 #UKHAS [http://twitter.com/LVL1WhiteStar/status/125730767639805952]
[00:32] <WB8ELK> 1W on 2.4 GHz with a omni horizontal wheel antenna to a 3 foot dish with preamp on the ground gets me at least 40 miles as long as you are receiving in the country away from WiFi
[00:32] <Darkside> we've got a 1 watt 23cm transmitter ready to go, but with a helical antenna on the payload and a 28dBi or something gain loop yagi on the ground we only have about a 40km path
[00:32] <WB8ELK> helical antenna not a good thing on the payload...most of your energy directed down
[00:32] <Darkside> interesting
[00:33] <Darkside> yeah, but we will be beneath the balloon anyway
[00:33] <Darkside> we can often follow the balloon path
[00:33] <WB8ELK> the wheel antenna (Mini-Wheel from www,hamtv.com)....will have a hemispherical pattern
[00:33] <Darkside> ok
[00:33] <WB8ELK> below it
[00:33] <Darkside> so what range were you getting on 23cm?
[00:33] <Dan-K2VOL> ok speech on the IRC chat usually works ok, but you guys are very verbose tonight, it sounds like a robot fight at my house
[00:33] <Darkside> and with what antennas
[00:34] <WB8ELK> you need a gain antenna with mast-mounted preamp on 23 cm....also FM ATV on that freq limits your range due to the threshold
[00:34] <WB8ELK> AM ATV on 23 cm will get you much further range...about 100 mi for a 1 watt transmitter
[00:34] <Darkside> hmm
[00:34] <Darkside> other problem - heatsinking
[00:34] <Darkside> how do you heatsink the amplifier?
[00:34] <Darkside> its going to be Class A or AB
[00:34] <Darkside> so its going to get damn hot
[00:35] <WB8ELK> 70cm best....1 Watt to a wheel antenna (looks like a three leaf cloverleaf - made by Olde Antenna Labs)....will get you 350 miles or more with a watchable but snowy image....I use 3 watts typically with a heatsink
[00:35] <Darkside> we can't do 70cm
[00:35] <Darkside> we're about to loose 420-430MHz
[00:35] <WB8ELK> a large heatsink mounted with the fins explosed to the outside
[00:35] <Darkside> which is the ATV portion of our 70cm band
[00:36] <WB8ELK> that's bad...there are lots of ATV folks in Australia that I know
[00:36] <Darkside> yeah
[00:36] <Darkside> most have switched up to 23cm now i think
[00:36] <WB8ELK> I'm publisher of ATV Quarterly
[00:36] <Darkside> we have the transmitters for 23cm... but yeah, path loss issues
[00:36] <Darkside> and the transmitters we have are FM TV only
[00:36] <Darkside> we were thinking of setting up a dish on the ground
[00:36] <WB8ELK> larger ground antennas with mast-mounted preamps then
[00:36] <Darkside> yeah
[00:36] <Darkside> we can probably set up a dish or something if we have to
[00:37] <Darkside> or make an array of 23cm loop yagis
[00:37] <WB8ELK> and an omni-horizontal antenna like that cloverleaf one on the payload
[00:37] <Darkside> or helicals
[00:37] <Darkside> yeah
[00:37] <WB8ELK> an array is good
[00:37] <Darkside> that cloverleaf one is a good idea
[00:37] <Darkside> also we had the idea of mountintg a tracking antenna in a trailer
[00:37] <WB8ELK> make sure the helicals are the right polarization...underneath a wheel antenna is circular
[00:37] <Darkside> and following the payload as close as we can
[00:37] <WB8ELK> and horizontal at the horizon
[00:38] <WB8ELK> I often do balloon stories in my magazine
[00:38] <Darkside> yeah i might have to try and get some copies
[00:38] <WB8ELK> so please send one in particularly if it uses ATV
[00:38] <Darkside> definitely!
[00:38] <WB8ELK> I'll send you a link to download an issue online...hang on
[00:38] <Darkside> oh yes, fun part about the ATV transmitters we have is the operate around the same frequency as the local 23cm repeater
[00:38] <Darkside> :P
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[00:39] <Darkside> but the club we launch under the umbrella of *owns* that repeater
[00:39] <Darkside> so we'll just switch it off for the day >_>
[00:40] <WB8ELK> Here you go....this one has a balloon article in it- http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4208641/ATVQ/Spring2010/Winter_2010_ATVQ_Cyber.pdf
[00:40] <Darkside> thanks!
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[00:40] <WB8ELK> Please send articles about your flights when they use ATV
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[00:42] <Darkside> certainly will!
[00:42] <Darkside> ok back later, need to go find my supervisor
[00:46] <Darkside> aaaand he's stil missing
[00:46] <Darkside> ugh
[00:46] <WB8ELK> gotta run for now...great talking with you all
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[00:48] <stilldavid> thanks for all the help, WB8ELK
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[05:26] <juxta> ping natrium42
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[06:33] <eroomde> morning all
[06:33] <number10> morning
[06:35] <SpeedEvil> ?Mrogn
[06:35] <SpeedEvil> Moring
[06:35] Action: SpeedEvil gives up.
[06:36] <SpeedEvil> Woke up at 4:30AM due to wind, failed utterly at getting back to sleep, as I have a pointless interview at 11:30 with someone who can't help.
[06:36] <SpeedEvil> Meh.
[06:38] <SpeedEvil> OTOH - painting I did yesterday dried before this torrential rain.
[06:39] <number10> presumably toy are nort - north west
[06:39] <SpeedEvil> And I shall enquire at a wedding gas supplier that happens to be on the route about H2.
[06:40] <number10> my typing also bad toy==you
[06:40] <SpeedEvil> central/east scotland - Fife
[06:40] <SpeedEvil> It's not very windy - just enough.
[06:41] Action: SpeedEvil needs to setup an anemomenter
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[08:05] <edmoore> morning
[08:06] <jcoxon> hey edmoore
[08:06] <edmoore> yo jcoxon
[08:06] <edmoore> how are things?
[08:07] <jcoxon> on night shift tonight and tomorrow
[08:07] <jcoxon> then on holiday!
[08:07] <edmoore> i am still fired up after conf
[08:07] <jcoxon> excellent
[08:07] <jcoxon> i should be sleeping
[08:07] <jcoxon> but i've got my pico payload outside
[08:07] <edmoore> gonna throw some time on a couple of things i've ignored
[08:07] <jcoxon> full day of testing is the plan
[08:07] <edmoore> nice
[08:07] <edmoore> running off solar cell?
[08:08] <jcoxon> yeah so the lipo is at full charge now
[08:08] <jcoxon> so the plan is for it not to drop too much during the day
[08:08] <jcoxon> then enter tonight with full capacity to run over night
[08:08] <jcoxon> so what are the projects?
[08:10] <edmoore> you might have noticed adam, in his habitat talk, threw a couple of pointed barbs to no one in particular
[08:10] <edmoore> which was me
[08:11] <jcoxon> hehe
[08:11] <edmoore> like 'say if the predictor were to be re-written in python' which is something i started but never finished
[08:11] <jcoxon> the decoder!
[08:11] <jcoxon> i'm sure that was in there too
[08:11] <edmoore> and 'you don't have to use fldigiu, say if someone were to write a better rtty demodulator...'
[08:11] <edmoore> also at me
[08:11] <edmoore> so those two, basically
[08:12] <jcoxon> :-)
[08:12] <edmoore> will finish predictor first
[08:12] <edmoore> it's quite simple, i just want to make it extensible so it can do other things
[08:13] <edmoore> for example multiple things at once
[08:13] <edmoore> which would be useful for if your payload happened to split into two separate bits at some altitude
[08:13] <jcoxon> or float
[08:13] <jcoxon> please
[08:13] <edmoore> float is already in there
[08:14] <jcoxon> it is?
[08:14] <edmoore> but yes it's easy and that's the idea
[08:14] <edmoore> events and triggers
[08:14] <jcoxon> so you could run multiple burst alts
[08:14] <jcoxon> see which works best
[08:14] <edmoore> so 'at 5 hrs it starts to descent at this speed' or 'at mach 0.8 it then gets this ballistic co-efficient'
[08:14] <edmoore> or whatever
[08:14] <jcoxon> cool
[08:15] <jcoxon> i took the rubber cap off the sarentel antenna
[08:15] <jcoxon> saved me 0.9g
[08:15] <edmoore> it'll have the web interface just the same but you'll be able to make a more complex flight configuration file probably in the style of adam's payl;oad configuration generator for habitat
[08:15] <edmoore> :D
[08:15] <edmoore> every gram counts!
[08:16] <jcoxon> indeed
[08:16] <jcoxon> the big issue is the lack of insulation :-p
[08:16] <WillDuckworth> defo
[08:16] <edmoore> bubble-wrap?
[08:16] <jcoxon> i think thats the key
[08:17] <WillDuckworth> Bill's 'greenhouse effect'
[08:17] <jcoxon> played with slow-feld yesterday
[08:17] <jcoxon> amazing copy with weak signal
[08:18] <jcoxon> but so incredibly slow
[08:18] <UpuWork> [09:15] <jcoxon> saved me 0.9g <- sums up Pico habbing
[08:18] <jcoxon> the first thing you need for pico habbing is some good scales
[08:18] <UpuWork> Morning edmoore put your presentation up and linked your videos from YouTube hope thats ok
[08:18] <edmoore> yup super
[08:19] <edmoore> just watched it!
[08:19] <jcoxon> i can't watch mine
[08:19] <jcoxon> its too painful
[08:19] <UpuWork> do you have the actual presentation Ed ?
[08:19] <UpuWork> yours was great jcoxon
[08:19] <edmoore> UpuWork: yes
[08:19] <edmoore> i'll pdf it up
[08:19] <UpuWork> that would be great
[08:19] <edmoore> it's just pictures, totally useless standalone
[08:19] <edmoore> but i'll pdf it anyway
[08:20] <UpuWork> well people can open it next to the video thats my idea
[08:20] <edmoore> ah i see
[08:20] <edmoore> cool
[08:20] <edmoore> don't have my laptop on my now so i'll do it this evening
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[08:27] <edmoore> morning RocketBoy
[08:28] <RocketBoy> hey edmoore
[08:28] <RocketBoy> (thats confused me)
[08:28] <edmoore> what's that?
[08:28] <edmoore> being the right way round?
[08:28] <RocketBoy> d name
[08:28] <edmoore> oh yes - web login from work
[08:28] <RocketBoy> back to the dold days
[08:29] <edmoore> no private key to the habhub server on my work machine
[08:29] <edmoore> which i where i run the eroomde screen session
[08:29] <RocketBoy> ah right
[08:29] <RocketBoy> what I was going to ask at the conference - but didn't get round to
[08:30] <RocketBoy> was did you consider strapping a motor on the back of your parachute testing nosecone and fins
[08:31] <RocketBoy> rather than using a tethered balloon or copter
[08:31] <edmoore> yes
[08:31] <edmoore> so launching it up and then just letting it come down on the parabola
[08:31] <RocketBoy> yep
[08:32] <edmoore> i was thinking of doing it that way at the conceptual design stage
[08:32] <edmoore> but iain thought it might be a bit complicated to also have to design and test a rocket booster
[08:32] <edmoore> which was probably valid
[08:33] <edmoore> and also to engineer some way of releasing the vehicle from the booster realibly without it getting in the way of the parachute release mech
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[08:33] <edmoore> but the idea is good.... especially if you want to do supersonic paracute testing from balloons
[08:33] <RocketBoy> it looked super stable so could have probably taken a motor hangig out the bacc
[08:33] <edmoore> strictly hypothetically, of course
[08:34] <edmoore> yeah it was pretty stable at sea level
[08:35] <RocketBoy> oh well - just an idea
[08:35] <edmoore> if you were to test again over a range, you could easily halve the mass of the thing and add a rocket booster in for the same overall mass
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[08:35] <edmoore> sorry i missed s step of reasoning in there - but doing it over a range you can loose all the backup, redundancy, stage separation etc
[08:36] <edmoore> just have a nosecone full of instrumentation and an aeroshell with fins to hold the chute
[08:37] <RocketBoy> I think you could have glued a few model rocket motors to a loose fitting disk - that would have dropped away at burnout
[08:38] <edmoore> it would look pretty spectacular too
[08:38] <RocketBoy> always a bonus
[08:38] <edmoore> i quite want to build a really meaty quadcopter
[08:38] <RocketBoy> perhaps a huge charge to seperate it
[08:38] <RocketBoy> too
[08:38] <edmoore> that could whizz 10kg up into the air
[08:39] <UpuWork> edmoore/Steve you both just "won" an NTX2 do you need them or shall we re-roll your numbers ?
[08:39] <edmoore> if you had lots of drop testing to do, it really wouldn't take long to pay for itself
[08:39] <edmoore> UpuWork: yippeee!!!
[08:39] <UpuWork> Don't know if you have boxes of them at home or something :)
[08:39] <RocketBoy> edmoore well for 10Kg you would need somthing better designed
[08:40] <UpuWork> I guess Yipeeee!!! means you'll take it ? :)
[08:40] <RocketBoy> i'd like mine - i'm just making adisposable payload
[08:40] <UpuWork> no problems
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[08:40] <UpuWork> preference on frequency ?
[08:41] <RocketBoy> how many were there?
[08:41] <UpuWork> 6 x 650 6x075
[08:41] <RocketBoy> I'll have a 650
[08:41] <UpuWork> Ed ?
[08:43] <RocketBoy> thats very good of Radiometrix - what very nice people
[08:43] <RocketBoy> thanks for sorting it out Upu
[08:43] <UpuWork> nps
[08:46] <griffonbot> Received email: Anthony Stirk "[UKHAS] NTX2 Winners"
[08:46] <edmoore> UpuWork: actually now that i'm an indpendant i wouldn't mind it
[08:46] <edmoore> sorry boss came to chat
[08:46] <edmoore> erm, no freq preference
[08:46] <edmoore> i want to fly a new board soon too
[08:46] <WillDuckworth> wooop UpuWork - cheers, didn't they do well
[08:46] <edmoore> and yes, thanks for sorting that out!
[08:47] <RocketBoy> edmoore: whats you youtube channel
[08:47] <edmoore> youtube.com/edmoore
[08:47] <RocketBoy> ah doh
[08:47] <edmoore> UpuWork: .075 if you want me to commit
[08:48] <edmoore> i want to do some dominoex
[08:48] <UpuWork> you won one too WillDuckworth :)
[08:48] <UpuWork> No problems edmoore
[08:48] <WillDuckworth> cheers UpuWork. Yes edmoore - i'm intrigued about the dominoex stuff too
[08:49] <edmoore> we ported it to badger1 at the end of 2008
[08:49] <fsphil-laptop> raining and windy -- yep, I'm home :)
[08:50] <edmoore> well, actually 'ported' was fergus lifting it direct from the fldigi source and both of us trying to run it on badger 1 boards
[08:50] <edmoore> but our DAC didn't have the resolution
[08:53] <edmoore> but yeah it does look cool
[08:53] <edmoore> and it has FEC built into the standard
[08:55] <fsphil-laptop> it's simpler than olivia isn't it?
[08:56] <edmoore> yep
[08:56] <edmoore> and differentially coded
[08:56] <edmoore> so much more drift tolerant
[08:56] <SamSilver> i am a big fan of olivia
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[09:00] <fsphil-laptop> aaarh, encoding the talk jcoxon did, took 5 hours :) but the fade out and the end messed up
[09:01] <WillDuckworth> what did you use?
[09:02] <fsphil-laptop> openshot
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[09:03] <RocketBoy> edmoore: is it tollerant to shift changes
[09:04] <RocketBoy> I had it working fine on an NTX2 but didn't get round to flying it or testing it in a freezer
[09:06] <UpuWork> any preference on frequency WillDuckworth ?
[09:06] <WillDuckworth> not too worried - 650 is fine
[09:06] <WillDuckworth> even out the balance
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[09:09] <edmoore> RocketBoy: sorry was away
[09:10] <edmoore> i think it's inteolerant to the gaps between tones
[09:10] <edmoore> but the centre freq can drift around a bit
[09:10] <edmoore> but you'd probably want to make a LUT - freq vs temp vs voltage
[09:10] <edmoore> so a 2d LUT
[09:11] <fsphil-laptop> they don't have an AFC though in fldigi?
[09:11] <fsphil-laptop> (they being domino and olivia)
[09:11] <edmoore> doesn't cope with the spacing between tones changing, i don't think
[09:11] <edmoore> just the entire chuck of spectrum drifting about
[09:13] <edmoore> i think DanielRichman has played with this too
[09:13] <RocketBoy> yeah that makes sense
[09:13] <edmoore> he found a bug in fldigi somewhere
[09:13] <RocketBoy> ther are lots of those
[09:13] <jcoxon> yeah he has got domino working on his payload
[09:14] <RocketBoy> cool
[09:14] <RocketBoy> I got it working on the HF rig
[09:15] <RocketBoy> IIRC
[09:15] <RocketBoy> BBL
[09:16] <edmoore> i think the only disadvantage to it is being hardert to implement for people with a bit less experience
[09:16] <edmoore> but in every other way it looks like a win
[09:18] <fsphil-laptop> I like the idea of taking the bit format and putting it into a two-tone mode
[09:18] <RocketBoy> code wise its easy - accuratly generating the shits is the difficult bit
[09:18] <fsphil-laptop> sort of a cross between rtty and domino
[09:18] <fsphil-laptop> would work with all current hardware
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[09:19] <edmoore> '<RocketBoy> code wise its easy - accuratly generating the shits is the difficult bit'
[09:19] <edmoore> giggle
[09:19] <fsphil-laptop> would be simpler to do proper AFC too, so drifting isn't an issue
[09:20] <fsphil-laptop> haha! I totally missed that
[09:22] <fsphil-laptop> right, last breakfast time
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[09:39] <NigelMoby> Morning
[09:40] <number10> Morning
[09:42] vk5gr (3aaf050e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.58.175.5.14) joined #highaltitude.
[09:42] <vk5gr> ping juxta
[09:42] <vk5gr> ping Darkside
[09:43] <NigelMoby> Prod him with a big stick!
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[09:43] <vk5gr> I think he would like that :-)
[09:43] <NigelMoby> Lol
[09:43] <NigelMoby> How's u ?
[09:43] <vk5gr> Horus 17 launch video now up : http://vimeo.com/30660947
[09:43] <NigelMoby> Oh brill
[09:44] <vk5gr> pretty good - had a couple of days of work - gotta go back tomorrow though :-(
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[09:44] <vk5gr> of work = off work
[09:44] <NigelMoby> Bah that's the worst part of having time off.
[09:44] <vk5gr> tell me about it - the month off in the USA was really hard to go back to work from
[09:45] <GW8RAK> edmoore, thinking of domino and other MFSk modes, how do you generate the different tones?
[09:46] <edmoore> DAC nfrom uController directly into the VCO of the NTX2
[09:47] <NigelMoby> Hey graham, ed
[09:47] <GW8RAK> Okay, thanks. I thought that was the way it was done. On a related note, could a smart phone send data out the USB to a DAC to generate tones?
[09:47] <GW8RAK> Morning Nigel
[09:48] <edmoore> GW8RAK: don't see why not!
[09:48] <edmoore> the nice thing about dom ex is that the baud rates are nice and low
[09:48] <edmoore> eg 10 baud
[09:48] <edmoore> so any jitter in usb timing shouldn't be too pronounced
[09:48] <NigelMoby> Ed, I've got some pressure sensors on order to go inside the foil balloons.
[09:48] <edmoore> talk to ejcweb (ed cunningham) aboud android flight payloads - it's his thing
[09:49] <GW8RAK> I can see that it is feasbile, but I was thinking of using a smart phone as a simple terminal for "on the hill" SOTA operations, or to decode balloon data without needing a pc
[09:49] <edmoore> actually the android hardware device would probably be ideal
[09:49] <GW8RAK> Thanks ed. Will do.
[09:49] <GW8RAK> Will also look at the spec for domino and tone numbers and spacing
[09:50] <gm> fldigi almost runs on the n900, so it's certainly feasible
[09:51] <edmoore> bbl
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[10:09] <NigelMoby> Morning Laurence
[10:16] <Upu> tc
[10:17] <NigelMoby> Hey upu
[10:17] <Upu> morning Nigel
[10:17] <Upu> sorry was a mt
[10:18] <NigelMoby> Np
[10:36] <SamSilver> http://jonaspfeil.de/ballcamera hang one below payload
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[10:47] <x-f> SamSilver, that would be fun!
[10:50] <x-f> HD version of that ball is just a matter of time
[10:51] <SamSilver> did you watch video?
[10:51] <x-f> at lower altitudes it would give a true "bird's eye view" :)
[10:51] <x-f> i watched half of it, Safari crashed
[10:52] <SamSilver> worth a watch
[11:02] <fsphil-laptop> a video version of that would be neat, esp. if it could be projected onto a sphere that someone could stand inside
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[11:03] <SamSilver> or hang inside the sphere
[11:04] <x-f> IMAX?
[11:05] <fsphil-laptop> as if you're suspended from the balloon! yea
[11:07] <SamSilver> imersion hab
[11:08] <daveake> :D
[11:08] <daveake> With my payloads, I think I'd get ill watching ...
[11:09] <NigelMoby> Lol
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[11:30] <fsphil> or Tim's -- I think he had the most spinny descent
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[11:50] <daveake> Buzz's lines were so twisted, the balloon was still attached even though the line to it had been cut!
[11:50] <fsphil-laptop> your cutdown worked?
[11:51] <daveake> Didn't say that :D
[11:51] <fsphil-laptop> well kinda worked
[11:51] <daveake> :D
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[11:51] <daveake> Well, the telemetry said it hadn't triggered. Either it's lying or the nylon broke
[11:52] <daveake> Which could be a bad knot or rubbing against the nichrome
[11:53] <Darkside> http://vimeo.com/30660947 <-- Hoeus 17 launch
[11:53] <fsphil-laptop> can anyone with ipv6 test if www.sanslogic.co.uk is working
[11:55] <fsphil-laptop> nice vid Darkside
[11:55] <fsphil-laptop> see what you mean about it maybe hitting the balloon
[11:55] <NigelMoby> Very fast ascent
[11:56] <Darkside> 7m/s
[11:56] <fsphil-laptop> it was bouncing around there like a drunk Maasai
[11:57] <NigelMoby> Lol
[11:57] <griffonbot> @darksidelemm: Horus 17 Launch Video: http://t.co/e3FV7CcW #projecthorus #arhab [http://twitter.com/darksidelemm/status/125903329036480512]
[11:59] <fsphil-laptop> lunch time, grub!
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[12:04] <costyn> daveake: I noticed that the status of the flight-mode didn't change at all during the flight; it was Ascending all the time
[12:06] <daveake> Yes .... I thought the payload would go a bit higher, and to prevent a premature cutdown it didn't step on until it hit 38km :p
[12:08] <daveake> Oh, I just realised why the cutdown did hit ....
[12:08] <daveake> ... and why the thing rebooted in the back of my car ....
[12:09] <daveake> .... timeout 4 hours after launch :D
[12:09] <daveake> I'll check the code but that sounds like a good guess!
[12:15] <costyn> :)
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[12:25] <edmoore> aftn'n
[12:26] <jonsowman> hello edmoore
[12:27] <edmoore> yo
[12:27] <edmoore> all going well?
[12:27] <jonsowman> not too bad ta
[12:27] <jonsowman> you?
[12:29] <edmoore> yep not bad
[12:29] <edmoore> bit more motivated to do hab things now
[12:30] <jonsowman> heh yes
[12:30] <jonsowman> silly lectures and supervisions and examples papers getting in the way
[12:30] <jonsowman> :\
[12:31] <Randomskk> soo muuch to do
[12:31] <Randomskk> it turns out being vaguely social also massively impacts free time. le sigh
[12:31] <Randomskk> oh hey a lecture in 30mins good good
[12:34] <edmoore> Randomskk: tell me about it
[12:34] <edmoore> degree + social sort of cancels out hobby time
[12:34] <Randomskk> it's really more like "degree, hobby, social, sports, pick any two"
[12:34] <edmoore> that's why holiday productivity is about 1000x termtime productivity
[12:34] <Randomskk> "though if you want a blue or a first pick only one"
[12:36] <Randomskk> and when hobby is also "spaceflight, quadcopter, habitat, other stuff, pick any one"
[12:36] <Randomskk> I need like 5 days/day
[12:36] <Randomskk> that might be enough
[12:36] <fsphil-laptop> daveake, did you figure out what happened the car pc?
[12:37] <Randomskk> time to run to next lecture, oh yay
[12:37] <Randomskk> bbl
[12:37] <fsphil-laptop> enjoy
[12:38] <daveake> fsphil-laptop: Not had time yet. Will look this week
[12:39] <daveake> It would have been useful :(
[12:39] <daveake> I'll use it next time.
[12:42] <fsphil-laptop> yea shame
[12:42] <fsphil-laptop> is it all built into the car?
[12:43] <Laurenceb> http://www.coolcomponents.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=23_29&products_id=808
[12:43] <Laurenceb> that owns
[12:44] <daveake> No .... base unit in the boot, and cables under the carpets to a monitor which is currently blu-tacked where the lower console used to be :)
[12:44] <fsphil-laptop> aah excellent :)
[12:44] <fsphil-laptop> I've been thinking of ways to mount the laptop and keeping the cables tidy
[12:45] <fsphil-laptop> there are little arms you can get but they require modifying the car
[12:45] <daveake> My car is 14 years old. I'm beginning to not worry about modifying it :)
[12:46] <WillDuckworth> looks good - they need to get some stock though
[12:46] <griffonbot> Received email: "Re: [UKHAS] NTX2 Winners"
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[12:49] <fsphil-laptop> yikes that's a bit older than mine
[12:53] <eroomde> back
[12:54] <NigeyS> wb ed
[12:54] <fsphil-laptop> re
[12:55] <eroomde> please don't do science on 434.650mhz
[12:55] <fsphil-laptop> I think the potential for interference is very very low
[12:55] <eroomde> because some people want to do 25W FM repeaters to talk about their ailments with other people less than 10 miles away
[12:56] <NigeyS> lol ed
[12:56] <fsphil-laptop> I heard a brilliant farmer accent on a 2m repeater when I was at nigeys
[12:56] <NigeyS> aye drive a wee trac'or ;)
[12:56] <eroomde> they do just ramble on and on an on and on
[12:57] <eroomde> last time i listened in it was:
[12:57] <NigeyS> that is very true
[12:57] <eroomde> having a gastric band fitted (or not to)
[12:57] <NigeyS> wtf...
[12:57] <eroomde> how many pairs of underwear you can get away with on a 1 wk holiday
[12:57] <fsphil-laptop> lol
[12:57] <eroomde> the best route between cambridge and st ives
[12:57] <NigeyS> lmfao
[12:58] <eroomde> i think i tuned out in horror and disgust after that
[12:58] <fsphil-laptop> I've heard conversations like that on 80m
[12:58] <NigeyS> eroomde, got a Q for you..
[12:59] <eroomde> shoot
[12:59] <fsphil-laptop> Can I have a P please
[12:59] <jonsowman> fsphil-laptop: errr
[13:00] <NigeyS> eroomde, if i put this sensor inside the balloon, i have to run it off the payload power supply, which will be at least 1m away, so i need 1m of cabling, is that going to affect the sensor in any way?
[13:00] <NigeyS> hey jonsowman :-)
[13:00] <jonsowman> hi NigeyS
[13:00] <jonsowman> how's things
[13:00] <fsphil-laptop> old game show reference jonsowman :)
[13:01] <NigeyS> not to bad, building picochu-3 :D
[13:01] <jonsowman> fsphil-laptop: haha okay
[13:01] <jonsowman> NigeyS: good stuff :)
[13:01] <jonsowman> is it an analogue sensor?
[13:01] <eroomde> NigeyS: yes you're right it might pick up interference
[13:01] <NigeyS> not losing this payload, its going to be a tad more expensive than the others :| .. its the bmp085
[13:01] <eroomde> for instrumentation like that you often use shielded twister pair
[13:01] <eroomde> twisted*
[13:01] <NigeyS> ahh
[13:02] <eroomde> so that's a twisted pair of wires inside a foil jacket
[13:02] <costyn> eroomde: sounds heavy :)
[13:02] <eroomde> nah
[13:02] <NigeyS> well i do want the best results possible, so i may invest in decent cabling
[13:02] <eroomde> you can get it down to 28AWG
[13:02] <jonsowman> it's an I2C sensor
[13:02] <jonsowman> digital interface so it shouldn't be much of an issue
[13:02] <eroomde> i was about to say
[13:02] <eroomde> if i's digital, you don't really care
[13:02] <NigeyS> ahh i see
[13:03] <eroomde> as a general rule, keep you analog stuff as short and local as possible
[13:03] <NigeyS> got ya, thanks :D
[13:03] <NigeyS> getting it in the balloon is going to be .....fun
[13:03] <fsphil-laptop> there might be a slight voltage drop on the vcc line, if it's fussy about input voltage that might be an issue
[13:03] <NigeyS> im sure it will not rip the valve, but how to ensure we get no leaks from where the cables run out im not so sure of
[13:04] <eroomde> you could use a connector which is rated to ip68
[13:04] <NigeyS> fsphil-laptop, please, no mentioning power or voltage drops..lol had enough of those!
[13:04] <eroomde> so have the socket built into a plastic tube in the neck of the balloon
[13:04] <NigeyS> no plastic tube on the foils
[13:04] <eroomde> oh sorry
[13:04] <eroomde> hrm
[13:05] <eroomde> drinking straw?
[13:05] <fsphil-laptop> add one?
[13:05] <NigeyS> its literally 2 pieces of plastic on the inside that push against each other
[13:05] <eroomde> you can stick drinking straws up into them iirc
[13:05] <NigeyS> yup, needs to be a bit wider, maybe a mcdonals size straw would work, think the bmp is 0.5cm x 0.5 ish ?
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[13:05] <jonsowman> NigeyS: you set on using the bmp085?
[13:06] <NigeyS> jonsowman, its a case of being cheap, deadbugable, and very light, i cant really add any more weight wise to the balloon
[13:06] <jonsowman> okay
[13:06] <NigeyS> if i go over 90gm's i'm stuffed
[13:06] <NigeyS> last flight was 86
[13:06] <jonsowman> it's just some (freescale etc) have ports for attaching rubber tubing
[13:07] <jonsowman> or similar
[13:07] <fsphil-laptop> can you make a plug?
[13:07] <NigeyS> yeah i saw those, i was worried about them tearing the valve
[13:07] <fsphil-laptop> some tubing with a rubber seal
[13:07] <jonsowman> NigeyS: you needn't have the sensor inside the envelope
[13:07] <jonsowman> after filling, cut the filling tube, whack it on the sensor port
[13:08] <NigeyS> ohh, you mean put the little tube into the valve and have the sensor outside ?
[13:08] <jonsowman> yep
[13:08] <NigeyS> got ya .. hmm..
[13:08] <NigeyS> may be worth looking into, would have to be super light tubing though
[13:08] <jonsowman> yeah
[13:08] <jonsowman> it may not be feasible but perhaps worth considering
[13:09] <NigeyS> i'll definately look into it
[13:09] <NigeyS> may be able to save a good 10grams if i can get this ublox onto one of upus breakouts, the locosys ceramic antenna is 25gms
[13:11] <jonsowman> :)
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[13:19] <eroomde> jonsowman: what courses are you doing this year?
[13:20] <jonsowman> all of F
[13:20] <jonsowman> 3B1/2 (RF & integrated digital elec)
[13:21] <jonsowman> 3I1 (data structures and algorithms)
[13:21] <jonsowman> plus a management one
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[13:27] <eroomde> jonsowman: 3b1 is a nightmare
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[13:27] <jonsowman> eroomde: lots of maths?
[13:27] <eroomde> no
[13:27] <eroomde> absolutely none
[13:27] <eroomde> lots of weird
[13:27] <jonsowman> heh
[13:27] <jonsowman> only had a couple of lectures so far
[13:28] <jonsowman> designing class A audio amps
[13:28] <jonsowman> and kind of a brief look at superhets etc
[13:28] <eroomde> it's hundreds of bits of arbitrary black magic and rules of thumb given by a lecturer who just wondered out of the old testament
[13:28] <jonsowman> hahaa
[13:28] <russss> heh
[13:28] <jonsowman> yes he does give that impression
[13:28] <eroomde> the examples papers and exam questions are totally without logic
[13:28] <jonsowman> oh good
[13:28] <jonsowman> i'm finding the 3F1 lecturer terrible so far
[13:29] <jonsowman> Z transforms and properties -- ought to be really easy, basically same as Fourier
[13:29] <eroomde> 'what values should you use for r1 and r2' has about 47 valid answers (or the problem is massively underconstrained) but there'll be some never-before-mentioned reason to 47k rather than 4.7k
[13:29] <eroomde> jonsowman: who is it?
[13:29] <eroomde> concalves?
[13:29] <jonsowman> Jorge Concalves
[13:29] <eroomde> yeah
[13:29] <eroomde> he's very smart
[13:29] <eroomde> but 3F1 is full of weird
[13:29] <jonsowman> oh i'm sure he is
[13:29] <eroomde> just try and stay ontop of it
[13:29] <eroomde> ask supervisors lots of questions
[13:29] <jonsowman> will do :) not had any supervisions yet
[13:30] <eroomde> it's a massive hodge podge
[13:30] <jonsowman> yeah
[13:31] <eroomde> the info theory at the end is interesting
[13:31] <eroomde> but then that's just what i find interesting
[13:31] <jonsowman> yeah same
[13:31] <eroomde> david mackays book is the best though
[13:31] <eroomde> you should get a copy
[13:31] <jonsowman> okay
[13:31] <eroomde> it's bedtime reading
[13:31] <jonsowman> i think i'm going to have to at this rate
[13:31] <eroomde> that will explain the shannon limit proof better than anything else i've read
[13:33] <eroomde> especially the block diagram that explains joint entropies and mutual information
[13:33] <eroomde> infact get the book, copy that diagram, and srtick it on your wall
[13:33] <jonsowman> haha okay
[13:33] <jonsowman> i'll have a hunt for a cheap copy
[13:33] <eroomde> it really helps visulaise how they all relate to each other
[13:34] <eroomde> they sell it in uni press
[13:34] <russss> witchcraft
[13:34] <eroomde> worth it, seriously
[13:34] <eroomde> best info theory book i've ever seen
[13:34] <jonsowman> cool :)
[13:34] <jonsowman> so far 3F1 has just been a re-hash of last year's Fourier analysis stuff
[13:34] <jonsowman> just with 's' changed for 'z' basically
[13:35] <eroomde> Tustin Transforms iirc?
[13:36] <jonsowman> yep
[13:36] <jonsowman> course calls them Z-transforms
[13:36] <jonsowman> but yes
[13:36] <eroomde> eeeez a conforrrrmalle mappeeeeng
[13:36] <jonsowman> hahaha
[13:36] <eroomde> that's my attempt at writing spanish accents
[13:37] <jonsowman> ntb
[13:37] <number10> jonsowman: you probably should not lok at this http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~mackay/itprnn/book.pdf
[13:37] <eroomde> that's the book
[13:37] <eroomde> mackay's book
[13:37] <eroomde> but buy a copy
[13:37] <eroomde> i actually have three copies
[13:37] <eroomde> one for each room
[13:37] <jonsowman> lol
[13:38] <eroomde> it's not a joke :|
[13:38] <jonsowman> I'd better buy a few then
[13:38] <eroomde> mmm, it's good
[13:38] <eroomde> i actually took his course
[13:39] <eroomde> before he got his job as chielf scientific adviser
[13:39] <jonsowman> oh coo
[13:39] <jonsowman> *cool
[13:39] <eroomde> it was proabably the best course i took at cam
[13:39] <jonsowman> which one was that?
[13:39] <eroomde> it was a physics masters course
[13:39] <eroomde> it was just the course of his book
[13:39] <jonsowman> right
[13:40] <eroomde> noisy channel coding theory and error correcting codes, monte carlo techniques and particle filters, and a bit of stuff on machine learning and context memories
[13:40] <eroomde> was brill
[13:40] <jonsowman> sounds good
[13:41] <eroomde> but yes, the book is worth it just for the coding section. it'll really help you with 3f1 and 4
[13:41] <jonsowman> ok ta :) am ordering a copy now
[13:41] <eroomde> i hope you are getting the message that i think this book is good :)
[13:41] <jonsowman> haha
[13:41] <jonsowman> :D yes i think so
[13:42] <eroomde> i think it was about £25 from the CU Press shop on kings parade
[13:42] <eroomde> cheaper than amazon anyway
[13:42] <jonsowman> oh ok
[13:42] <jonsowman> lecturer recommended a couple for 3B1
[13:43] <jonsowman> did you grab any books for that one?
[13:43] <eroomde> no i didn;t take it
[13:43] <jonsowman> oh ok :)
[13:43] <eroomde> i just heard lots of horror stories from horrified friends who came up to me and said 'you have an amateur radio license don;t you? look at this... what the fuck?'
[13:43] <eroomde> and so i went along to a few of the lectures
[13:43] <eroomde> and agreed
[13:43] <jonsowman> haha
[13:44] <eroomde> they all seem innocuous enough but then you come to answer his questions and they're just bizarre
[13:44] <jonsowman> good times, looking forward to that then
[13:44] <eroomde> yeah i mean you're in the same boat as everyone else
[13:45] <jonsowman> i'm sure i'll manage
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[13:47] <eroomde> i guess building some of the circuits could be useful
[13:47] <eroomde> but time consuming
[13:47] <jonsowman> yea, i've got more than enough to do :(
[13:48] <eroomde> you'll probably do a better job of time management than me
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[13:49] <jonsowman> heh, we'll see
[13:49] <jonsowman> it can't be as bad as 2nd year
[13:49] <fsphil-laptop> time management is something I was never very good at
[13:49] <eroomde> it isn't
[13:49] <eroomde> 3rd year is definitely more fun
[13:49] <jonsowman> lent term last year nearly killed me
[13:49] <Laurenceb> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVRrOtP1Dvk
[13:49] <eroomde> but it is possible to get in a pickle
[13:50] <jonsowman> which Engineering Area Activity did you do?
[13:50] <eroomde> like, i more or less blanked the initial transistor physics bit of 3b2
[13:50] <eroomde> and suddenly realised i hadn't got to the bottom of it
[13:50] <eroomde> i did the cd player
[13:50] <jonsowman> oh cool
[13:50] <eroomde> usb bus analysis
[13:50] <Laurenceb> ewww
[13:50] <jonsowman> was your 'area' information and computer systems?
[13:50] <eroomde> was a bit of a joke
[13:50] <eroomde> i guess so
[13:51] <eroomde> din't remember
[13:51] <eroomde> oh yeah the other advice
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[13:51] <eroomde> do all your labs in a big rush at the beginning
[13:51] <eroomde> having write-ups hanging over you at the end of term sucks
[13:51] <jonsowman> yeah
[13:51] <jonsowman> this term that didn't work out very well due to having a lecture when the timetables went up, and most people got there first
[13:52] <jonsowman> but it's not awful, i have one a week
[13:52] <jonsowman> next term they're all towards the start
[13:52] <eroomde> cool
[13:52] <eroomde> and do them all in TeX
[13:52] <eroomde> i'm sure you do anyway
[13:52] <jonsowman> oh i will
[13:52] <eroomde> but do anyway
[13:52] <jonsowman> yes, have done for the last two years
[13:52] <jonsowman> don't intend to change
[13:52] <eroomde> it's sort of axiomatically correct that you get the full presentations marks if you use TeX
[13:53] <jonsowman> sorted
[13:53] <eroomde> and booktabs is a much better table plackage than the built in table package
[13:53] <eroomde> use booktabs
[13:53] <jonsowman> okay
[13:53] <jonsowman> tables are the worst thing about tex
[13:53] <eroomde> yep
[13:53] <jonsowman> they take /forever/
[13:53] <eroomde> i wrote a script
[13:53] <eroomde> csv to latex table markup
[13:53] <eroomde> and an makefiles are really good
[13:53] <jonsowman> don't suppose you've still got it
[13:53] <eroomde> on old laptop
[13:53] <eroomde> but it's easy right
[13:54] <eroomde> swap ',' for '&' and then put line ending at the end
[13:54] <jonsowman> yeah true
[13:54] <jonsowman> could do that in vim tbh
[13:54] <eroomde> infact it's really just a job for awk
[13:54] <eroomde> or vim yeah
[13:56] <eroomde> but i put them as appendices and got my makefile to generate them automatically
[13:56] <jonsowman> hehe
[13:56] <jonsowman> neat
[13:56] <eroomde> and include them at the back
[13:57] <eroomde> for large datasets anyway
[13:57] <jonsowman> seen this? http://www.methods.co.nz/asciidoc/
[13:58] <eroomde> i haven't
[13:58] <jonsowman> it can spit out latex source
[13:58] <eroomde> but i really would like one markup language to rule them all
[13:58] <jonsowman> heh, yes
[13:58] <jonsowman> millions of them
[13:58] <eroomde> i guess markdown
[13:58] <jonsowman> i've only ever really used markdown for github stuff, but it seems sensible
[13:59] <jonsowman> yaml is quite nice i guess
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[13:59] <eroomde> yeah
[13:59] <eroomde> markdown is nice tho - i like the github stuff
[13:59] <eroomde> and jekyll appeals
[13:59] <jonsowman> i've not tried that
[13:59] <eroomde> or hyde, the python version
[13:59] <eroomde> written by someone with a sense of humour
[13:59] <jonsowman> hehe
[14:02] <jonsowman> might whip out the trackotron this wekeend
[14:02] <jonsowman> try and figure out how it works :P
[14:02] <eroomde> what's flying?
[14:02] <eroomde> oh i see
[14:02] <eroomde> yeah
[14:02] <jonsowman> apex lot
[14:02] <eroomde> tbh might be worth a re-write
[14:02] <jonsowman> launching sat morning
[14:02] <eroomde> of the pc client
[14:02] <jonsowman> is that on the svn?
[14:02] <eroomde> to integrate with habitat
[14:02] <jonsowman> yeah
[14:02] <eroomde> i think it's on the svn yep
[14:03] <jonsowman> ok ta
[14:03] <jonsowman> we might do it whilst the thing's in the air
[14:03] <eroomde> it was just a wxwigets gui
[14:03] <eroomde> and pyserial to talk to the radio fox
[14:03] <jonsowman> it's going out to sea but should be a long floaty flight
[14:03] <eroomde> and urllib2 to grab the lat / lon /alt from view/listen
[14:03] <eroomde> or listen/view
[14:03] <jonsowman> i'm sure Randomskk will have it working in 5 minutes flat
[14:03] <eroomde> it might just need one line of code modified
[14:04] <jonsowman> yeah
[14:04] <eroomde> the position request url and associated parser
[14:04] <eroomde> but you have to put the control box into the right mode
[14:04] <jonsowman> just get it to grab latest payload position from couch and parse
[14:04] <eroomde> and i can't remember what that mode is
[14:04] <jonsowman> urgh ok, the manual is in the lab
[14:04] <jonsowman> i'll have a look. or just phone dan
[14:04] <eroomde> yes you can certainly try phoning dan
[14:05] <eroomde> he's had is fill of it
[14:05] <jonsowman> haha
[14:07] <hibby> how was HABCon then?
[14:07] <eroomde> v good
[14:07] <jonsowman> oh yea, is the footage online yet?
[14:08] <NigeyS> some of it is
[14:08] <fsphil-laptop> upu's got the stream recording on youtube: http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/general:ukhasconference
[14:08] <hibby> dan's video is up
[14:08] <jonsowman> oh cool
[14:08] <jonsowman> :)
[14:08] <NigeyS> http://www.youtube.com/user/upuaut1972
[14:09] <NigeyS> i'm going to seriously recommend that place gets a thing called a LIFT !
[14:09] <hibby> fatty
[14:09] <jonsowman> + a decorator
[14:09] <NigeyS> :o im a twig!
[14:09] <hibby> why don't we host it in a different city next year?
[14:09] <NigeyS> lol the rustik look jonsowman !
[14:09] Action: jonsowman suggests cambridge
[14:10] <NigeyS> ya, cambridge next year? :p
[14:10] <hibby> ah, Cambridge, home of cheapness and mass civilization
[14:10] <hibby> :p
[14:10] <eroomde> fsphil-laptop: are you putting your up too?
[14:10] <jonsowman> it'd be really cheap, we can use Engineering Dept rooms free
[14:10] <NigeyS> getting a hotel next time, by 5pm my brain and body were almost dead
[14:10] <jonsowman> s/rooms/lecture theatres/
[14:10] Action: hibby suggests the Scotch highlands so we can launch loads of stuff ;)
[14:10] <eroomde> jonsowman: or churchill
[14:10] <jonsowman> eroomde: yep, true
[14:11] <NigeyS> churchill is part of cam right ?
[14:11] <eroomde> they are well set up for conferences and will probably do mates rates for cusf
[14:11] <eroomde> NigeyS: yep, one of the 30 or so colleges that make up the uni
[14:11] <jonsowman> NigeyS: yes, Churchill College is where our launch site is
[14:11] <jonsowman> eroomde: cool, will bear that in mind :)
[14:11] <NigeyS> ahhh
[14:11] <fsphil-laptop> eroomde, just uploading the first one now. encoding was a lot slower than expected
[14:12] <NigeyS> id like to visit the astronomy dept :p
[14:12] Action: NigeyS dreams
[14:12] <hibby> fsphil-laptop: get moar coars and better gfx
[14:12] <hibby> :p
[14:12] <fsphil-laptop> I've for four, the encoder only uses one :p
[14:12] <NigeyS> hack it phil, -j 4 !! damn you lol
[14:12] Action: fsphil-laptop suggests Cookstown :p
[14:12] <hibby> vlc not multi-core // gfx card friendly yet?
[14:13] <fsphil-laptop> it's openshot - not sure what it's using in the background to do the encoding
[14:13] <fsphil-laptop> nice little video editor for linux
[14:13] <NigeyS> might be a ffmpeg backend ?
[14:13] Action: hibby suggest kdenlive
[14:13] <fsphil-laptop> it's a good bet
[14:13] <hibby> or just straight up ffmpeg
[14:13] <fsphil-laptop> I tried kdenlive a while back, it didn't like me
[14:13] <fsphil-laptop> might give it another go
[14:13] <fsphil-laptop> ffmpeg can't do titles
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[14:14] <NigeyS> hmm might install ubuntu 11.10 later, although not sure how long i can put up with unity!
[14:14] Action: hibby is now using kdenlive more that he can pull video off his windows phone with the latest update
[14:14] <hibby> oh god, not ubuntu
[14:14] <hibby> come to the arch side
[14:14] <jonsowman> NigeyS: i got rid of it immediately
[14:14] <jonsowman> <3 gnome
[14:14] <hibby> gnome3 ftw
[14:14] <NigeyS> oh dear, is it that bad? :/
[14:14] <UpuWork> I'll try get the other videos up tonight
[14:14] <jonsowman> NigeyS: it doesn't suit a desktop at all
[14:14] <fsphil-laptop> Once I got over the shock, gnome3 ain't too bad
[14:14] <jonsowman> i think for tablets/netbooks it's much better
[14:15] <NigeyS> thats the impression i get jon, theyve just bodged a tablet ui onto what is actually a nice os :(
[14:15] <jonsowman> touchscreen devices especially
[14:15] <hibby> it's not good for multi display stuff at all
[14:15] <hibby> tried it in the satellite lab and went back to kde4 straight away
[14:15] <NigeyS> heh might go get arch insead then
[14:15] <fsphil-laptop> unity? I might try it just to see :)
[14:15] <NigeyS> noooo its horrrrrible! lol
[14:16] <eroomde> i was thinking i might go from 10.10 to xubuntu or something
[14:16] <fsphil-laptop> it's strange they'd make such a drastic change
[14:16] <eroomde> keep hearing such nasties about 11.10
[14:17] <Zuph> I'm pretty okay with 11.10.
[14:17] <NigeyS> hey Brad :)
[14:17] Action: hibby recommends straight debian if you're keen for staying on that side
[14:17] <fsphil-laptop> hehe, jcoxon's talk is 2.4gb
[14:17] <Zuph> Hola, NigeyS
[14:17] <eroomde> fsphil-laptop: wow
[14:17] <NigeyS> eroomde, i think theyre aiming it at newbies to linux, rather than the people who jump from new rls to new rls
[14:17] <eroomde> are these HD?
[14:17] <hibby> hola Zuph
[14:17] <fsphil-laptop> eroomde, yea. I've reduced them to 720p
[14:18] <fsphil-laptop> they where recorded 1080p
[14:18] <eroomde> nice
[14:18] <Zuph> I'm going to go way out on a limb and say that, for my netbook, I *like* unity. I wouldn't like it for anything with more screen real estate, though.
[14:18] <eroomde> my feed talk is a bit choppy
[14:18] <Zuph> How's it going, hibby ? Back in the internets?
[14:18] <fsphil-laptop> there's a bit of a reverberation in the audio - it can be difficult to make out what's being said sometimes
[14:18] <hibby> Zuph: yeah man, we got a 50mbit pipe into the flat... it's good for watching ponies in HD
[14:18] <eroomde> i think next time it might be worth looking at one of those ones where you tap off a projector feed too
[14:19] <Zuph> hibby: Bastard.
[14:19] <fsphil-laptop> lol
[14:19] <UpuWork> fsphil you have fibre you laugh in the face of uploading 2Gb
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[14:19] <NigeyS> lol
[14:19] <Zuph> $55/mo = 10mbit.
[14:19] <eroomde> i just got 50MBit fibre at home too
[14:19] <NigeyS> snap
[14:19] <eroomde> never really use it though
[14:19] <fsphil-laptop> UpuWork, 25% done already :)
[14:19] <UpuWork> did you get the fast uplaod ?
[14:19] <NigeyS> get decent upload speeds with it to
[14:19] <hibby> ... we're free for 6 months, and then it's like... $50/mo
[14:19] <UpuWork> the 10Mb upload is epic
[14:19] <eroomde> i mean, unless flatmate and i are both watching different bbc iplayer HD feeds
[14:19] <eroomde> but we're rarely that antisocial
[14:20] <fsphil-laptop> I get reliable 7mbit speeds for upload
[14:20] <eroomde> oh and xcode grabbed it's 1.8GB update in just a few minutes yesterday. that was nice
[14:20] <Zuph> With the 10mbit, the girlfriend complains when I'm downloading something while she's watching Netflix.
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[14:20] <Zuph> 20mbit is available, but it's like $70/mo.
[14:21] <hibby> nasty
[14:22] <fsphil-laptop> anything about 30mbit here is just stupid moneys
[14:22] <fsphil-laptop> above*
[14:22] <UpuWork> I want to bond 4 fibres
[14:22] <UpuWork> for ludicrous speed uploads
[14:22] Action: hibby happens to know someone who works for virgin
[14:22] <fsphil-laptop> mmmm
[14:22] <Zuph> The work connection is still a single T1, shared between VoIP, and 20 engineers.
[14:24] <hibby> eww
[14:27] Action: hibby gets curious as Dan talks about mathematics...
[14:27] <fsphil-laptop> hibby, what have you done with Dan? He's got a beard now!
[14:28] <NigeyS> lol
[14:28] <hibby> fsphil-laptop: www.bit.ly/hibdap
[14:28] <eroomde> Dan has a very trustowrthy voice
[14:28] <hibby> nothing wrong with a good beard
[14:28] <eroomde> slightly hypnotising
[14:28] <jonsowman> haha yes
[14:28] <fsphil-laptop> it is that
[14:28] <jonsowman> i thought that
[14:28] <fsphil-laptop> bill to I think
[14:28] <fsphil-laptop> too
[14:29] <eroomde> 'and as we analyse the stress on the balloon seams, you will need to send me your bank accounts number and sort code'
[14:29] <jonsowman> lol
[14:29] <NigeyS> lol
[14:29] <hibby> "Hello, this is Dan, I'm calling from your bank and/or financial institution"
[14:29] <eroomde> shit
[14:29] <eroomde> started a large build with only 9 mins batt left
[14:29] <eroomde> potential disaster methinks
[14:30] <NigeyS> uhoh
[14:30] <eroomde> first world problem
[14:30] <eroomde> but still
[14:30] <jonsowman> very much so
[14:30] <fsphil-laptop> I hate starting a big build over ssh, but outside of a screen session
[14:30] <eroomde> i might dissappear any sec
[14:30] <eroomde> fsphil-laptop: yep!
[14:30] <jonsowman> i just do /everything/ in screen these days
[14:30] <jonsowman> for that reason
[14:31] <fsphil-laptop> I'm starting to now aswell
[14:31] <NigeyS> screen is god!
[14:31] <fsphil-laptop> one of the first things I install now
[14:31] <Randomskk> so actually tmux
[14:31] <NigeyS> i'd love to watch a laptop try to compile QT without a charger or screen :)
[14:31] <eroomde> i had a little screen fling once
[14:31] <eroomde> now i just use it for things like irc or other remote work
[14:31] <Randomskk> eroomde: I hear you have a bit of a thing for the 3f1 book?
[14:32] <eroomde> it's david mackays book
[14:32] <eroomde> 3f1 can go die
[14:32] <Randomskk> well yes
[14:32] <jonsowman> haha
[14:32] <eroomde> mackay is the bible on the entire of info theory
[14:32] <eroomde> it's a wonder
[14:32] <eroomde> every page is a joy
[14:33] <eroomde> bbl
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[14:35] <griffonbot> Received email: Anthony Stirk "Re: [UKHAS] NTX2 Winners"
[14:45] <Zuph> Anyone here use KiCad?
[14:45] <Randomskk> yes
[14:45] <Randomskk> but I'm about to go have a load of fun doing z-transforms
[14:46] <Randomskk> by "have a load of fun" I mean "I would rather answer your questions about kicad but sadly z-transforms have to happen"
[14:46] <Randomskk> but if you leave your question or comment or whatever here I'll chat back later
[14:46] <Zuph> Heh, I am blindly fumbling for usability tips.
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[14:47] <Zuph> Z-Transforms suck, and I was extremely happy when my signal / image processings courses allowed that bit to be abstracted into matlab.
[14:48] <Matt_soton> anyone know the cheapest source of sma pcb connectors and cable?
[14:48] <hibby> z transforms, lol
[14:49] <NigeyS> Matt_soton, try rapidonline
[14:49] <hibby> I made z transforms into a character in my undergrad maths exam
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[14:49] <NigeyS> think they were 2.95 for a right angle pcb connector
[14:49] <Matt_soton> ok
[14:49] <hibby> the Z-Transformers, battling against the Good work of Captain Laplace and General Fourier
[14:49] <Matt_soton> i think farnell were cheaper then that tho
[14:49] <Matt_soton> ideally i would need 5-6 of them
[14:49] <Matt_soton> so £3 is alot
[14:49] <griffonbot> Received email: daveake "[UKHAS] BUZZ1 Flight"
[14:49] <hibby> I didn't do very well in that exam...
[14:50] <NigeyS> Matt_soton, ouch yeah thats gonna add up ..
[14:51] <jonsowman> Matt_soton: you won't find them much cheaper
[14:51] <NigeyS> 2.39 is cheapest i can see them for :/
[14:51] <Matt_soton> unless i dont mind waiting 3 weeks for the hong kong post
[14:55] <jonsowman> Matt_soton: get good ones
[14:55] <jonsowman> you'll regret it if you don't
[14:55] <Matt_soton> define good
[14:56] <jonsowman> not /really/ cheap
[14:56] <Matt_soton> phttp://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10-SMA-female-socket-PCB-Edge-Mount-Solder-Connector-/150591792217?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item230ff86459#ht_2645wt_905
[14:56] <WillDuckworth> connectors are definitely the weakest spots
[14:58] <NigeyS> hey Will !
[14:58] <WillDuckworth> hi, did you ever find picochu?
[14:58] <NigeyS> nah he's probably in some field in north east wales by now :(
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[15:00] <fsphil-laptop> I've been wondering about a pico launch here .. I'm not sure how far I could track it
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[15:09] <daveake> What are the rules on a pico launch? i.e. how large/heavy can it be before it needs the usual notam stuff?
[15:10] <NigeyS> it has to be within 2m
[15:10] <NigeyS> in any direction
[15:10] <daveake> OK. And weight?
[15:11] <NigeyS> well, as its a pico launch as light as possible, you wont get much more than 220grams off the deck, and then you're just going to get a burst within a couple of km
[15:11] <daveake> Gottit
[15:11] <fsphil-laptop> there's a surprising amount of lift in those foil balloons
[15:11] <daveake> Was just wondering if a small.light camera was feasible
[15:12] <GW8RAK> Had a look in my field NigeyS and it's not in this part of NE Wales :)
[15:12] <NigeyS> daveake, a very small keychain cam might be ok
[15:12] <fsphil-laptop> haha
[15:12] <fsphil-laptop> ooh ssdv on a foil launch
[15:12] <NigeyS> GW8RAK, dam!, he's lost :(
[15:12] <daveake> NigeyS: What a good idea .... :p
[15:13] <GW8RAK> At least it wasn't as expensive as my neighbours helicopter which took off and kept going.
[15:13] <NigeyS> lol GW8RAK value wise, its about a 70quid payload lol
[15:13] <GW8RAK> The helicopter was £1K+
[15:13] <NigeyS> daveake, ive ordered 1 off ebay, ill let you know how heavy etc it is when it gets here
[15:13] <NigeyS> GW8RAK, :o
[15:13] <daveake> £1K+ wow
[15:14] <daveake> Mine are less than £100
[15:14] <fsphil-laptop> my last helicopter cost £10
[15:14] <GW8RAK> Motors, batteries, gyro's etc
[15:14] <fsphil-laptop> fair enough it only lasted one flight
[15:14] <fsphil-laptop> so per-flight is was quite expensive
[15:14] <GW8RAK> So did Trevor's !
[15:15] <daveake> NigeyS which one?
[15:15] <daveake> I think the "808" type has been updated with a better sensor. So probbaly slightly less shit than before
[15:16] <fsphil-laptop> needs a proper shutter
[15:16] <NigeyS> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320765653976&ssPageName=ADME:L:OC:GB:1123
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[15:18] Action: hibby 's flatmate appears to have gone mental
[15:18] <daveake> Different case to mine, but almost certainly the same type
[15:19] <NigeyS> hopefully i can strip it down a bit
[15:19] <daveake> Yes, you can.
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[15:31] <daveake> NigeyS: http://www.flickr.com/photos/daveake/6124001605/
[15:32] <daveake> That's with control added for on/off and shutter release
[15:32] <fsphil-laptop> jcoxon's talk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKN30Z-viE0
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[15:36] <edmoore> fsphil-laptop: nice
[15:36] <edmoore> good quiality
[15:37] <NigeyS> cheers dave, any idea on weight ?
[15:40] <UpuWork> hey fsphil can you put it on conference page as an alternate link ?
[15:40] <UpuWork> http://ukhas.org.uk/general:ukhasconference
[15:44] <daveake> NigeyS 15g including battery (though I ran it from 3 AAAs)
[15:44] <NigeyS> brill, cheers :D
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[15:53] <fsphil-laptop> UpuWork, will do
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[16:10] <priyesh> what's the minimum necklift you would feasibly launch a balloon with?
[16:11] <SpeedEvil> You probably usually want to exceed 1m/s lift.
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[16:22] <priyesh> thanks SpeedEvil
[16:23] <NigeyS> 0.5m/s might be doable, if conditions are favourable
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[16:54] <griffonbot> @apexhab: Predictions for Alpha's landing are currently in the Netherlands - anyone have dutch friends? #apexhab #ukhas [http://twitter.com/apexhab/status/125978025518043137]
[16:55] <griffonbot> @danielsaul: RT @apexhab: Predictions for Alpha's landing are currently in the Netherlands - anyone have dutch friends? #apexhab #ukhas [http://twitter.com/danielsaul/status/125978124902080512]
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[17:00] <eroomde> evening
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[17:04] <stilldavid> good evening
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[17:04] <stilldavid> eroomde: might try a launch tomorrow morning over here
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[17:09] <Upu> Apex are brave its very wild out there
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[17:13] <eroomde> stilldavid: awesome
[17:13] <eroomde> what are you flying/
[17:13] <eroomde> ?
[17:13] <stilldavid> same flight computer with two gopros
[17:13] <stilldavid> one pointing out, one up to catch the pop at 60fps
[17:13] <jonsowman> Upu: underfilled and planning to dump it in the drink
[17:15] <jonsowman> hopefully ground wind will be okay so filling won't be a problem
[17:15] <jonsowman> we'll see
[17:17] <eroomde> jonsowman: when launching?
[17:17] <eroomde> stilldavid: cool
[17:17] <eroomde> we do need more popping vids for surew
[17:17] <jonsowman> eroomde: sat morning
[17:17] <stilldavid> yeah, definitely. I hope it works out alright
[17:17] <stilldavid> any chance I could get on the spacenear.us tracker?
[17:18] <stilldavid> I can upload normal sentences from dl-fldigi plus I'll have a spot
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[17:22] <eroomde> i don't think there's anything else going up
[17:22] <eroomde> ping Randomskk or DanielRichman
[17:22] <DanielRichman> hi
[17:22] <DanielRichman> http://habhub.org/genpayload
[17:22] <eroomde> it's like you're a bot
[17:22] <DanielRichman> excellent idea
[17:23] <eroomde> my laptop is building octave
[17:23] <eroomde> the poor thing is very unhappy
[17:23] <jonsowman> haha
[17:24] <stilldavid> :-D
[17:24] <stilldavid> great form, DanielRichman
[17:24] <DanielRichman> stilldavid: Randomskk made it
[17:24] <stilldavid> it's slick, I like it
[17:24] <stilldavid> and it's all automated from here?
[17:25] <stilldavid> ah, jQ
[17:25] <DanielRichman> nope. Last step is a please pastebin this json
[17:25] <stilldavid> hah, cool.
[17:25] <DanielRichman> it will, in the future, be automated
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[17:29] <eroomde> woo built
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[17:29] <eroomde> jonsowman: i'm downloading it because, as much as it upsets me to say it, numpy really does suck at linear algebra
[17:29] <jonsowman> hehe
[17:30] <jonsowman> octave is undeniably good for some things
[17:30] <eroomde> or at least, developing linear algebraic algorithms
[17:30] <eroomde> the lack of infix operators for matrix operation has got to me one too many times
[17:30] <somnium> Hi all. Has anyone created a simple GPS tracker based on an Arduino board for tracking a balloon? Im looking for some advice.
[17:31] <eroomde> i'm fed up with A*B*C*D*E having to become dot(a,dot(b,dot(c,dot(d,e))))
[17:31] <jonsowman> hehe
[17:31] <eroomde> somnium: yes you've come to the right place
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[17:31] <eroomde> lots of people here have
[17:31] <eroomde> ask away
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[17:33] <somnium> We plan to send the balloon to around 100,000 feet. The plan is to use an Arduino board, NTX2 transmitter, suitable GPS and an antenna.. But ive been looking at the arduino boards and there seems to be a few different models
[17:33] <somnium> what one would people recomend for a simple tracker, on a lowish budget?
[17:33] <eroomde> what you've suggested
[17:33] <eroomde> a vanilla arduino
[17:33] <eroomde> which is the uno currently
[17:33] <eroomde> and an ntx2
[17:34] <eroomde> and a gps - the ublox 5 or ublox 6 based modules are very good and lots of us use them
[17:34] <somnium> i have seen the guide to connect the NTX2 to the board with looks very helpful
[17:34] <eroomde> yup
[17:34] <somnium> Will those GPS work to that altitude?
[17:35] <eroomde> yes, the ublox 5 and ublox 6 based modules do work to about 200,000ft
[17:35] <eroomde> but you have to put them into their airborne mode
[17:35] <Upu> if you get that high come see us and tell us how
[17:35] <eroomde> you do this by communicating with them over the serial link
[17:35] <eroomde> rockoooooooons
[17:35] <somnium> ok
[17:35] <eroomde> perhaps
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[17:36] <somnium> for the antenna, what would you recomend? Where where about to the board do you connect this?
[17:36] <Upu> bit of wire :)
[17:36] <Upu> 164mm long
[17:36] <Upu> http://ava.upuaut.net/files/antenna.jpg
[17:37] <Upu> http://ava.upuaut.net/files/2010-09-03%2019-26-16_0003.jpg
[17:37] <Upu> its sketch B in that one
[17:37] <Upu> I was all confused
[17:38] <somnium> Oh cool thanks, and is this connected to the NTX2?
[17:38] <Upu> yep
[17:40] <Randomskk> eroomde: out of interest, have you tried using numpy's matrix type instead of array?
[17:40] <Randomskk> it does infix matrix products iirc
[17:40] <eroomde> yes
[17:40] <Randomskk> still bad?
[17:40] <eroomde> but it doesn't do them for more than 2
[17:40] <Randomskk> ah
[17:40] <Randomskk> that is sucky
[17:41] <eroomde> you can do A*B
[17:41] <eroomde> but not A*B*C
[17:41] <eroomde> well you can do the latter but you will get all sorts of meaningless weird
[17:41] <Randomskk> I see
[17:41] <Randomskk> that's... stupid.
[17:41] <eroomde> yes
[17:41] <Randomskk> oh well. like you said, prototype in octave than, implement in the end in numpy
[17:41] <eroomde> zackly
[17:42] <eroomde> python - the non prototyping, production only language
[17:42] <eroomde> this is what we've become
[17:42] <Randomskk> hah indeed
[17:42] <Randomskk> http://www.etsy.com/listing/71739287/collection-of-10-distribution-plushies
[17:43] <eroomde> if they were less, i probably would
[17:43] <Randomskk> hehe
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[17:51] <somnium> Where/ what sites sell the u-blox GPS? Im looking but cant seem to find any
[17:51] <eroomde> sparkfun is good
[17:51] <eroomde> so they are often hidden behind other brands
[17:52] <eroomde> the FSA03 is popular
[17:52] <eroomde> and that contains a ublox chipset
[17:52] <jonsowman> they're getting quite hard to source these days
[17:52] <eroomde> where abouts are you based?
[17:52] <Upu> somnium http://www.alphamicro.net/
[17:52] <Upu> in the UK
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[17:55] <somnium> Ok thanks, ive just been looking on there and cant seem to find how to order/ prices
[17:56] <Upu> they are meant to be a reseller but 1 sec
[17:57] <Upu> I think I have an Eagle library for it too
[17:57] <Upu> just getting you a mail address
[17:58] <NigeyS> ping jonsowman
[17:58] <jonsowman> hi NigeyS
[17:58] <Upu> john.moore@alphamicro.net
[17:58] <Upu> mail him should be able to sort you out
[17:58] <NigeyS> hey, is this the type of sensor you were refering to earlier? http://www.freescale.com/files/sensors/doc/data_sheet/MPXV7002.pdf
[17:58] <Upu> +44 (0) 1256 851770
[17:58] <jonsowman> NigeyS: yeah that's the thing
[17:59] <NigeyS> hmm, haven't a clue how to interface with that
[18:00] <jonsowman> it's analogue which is a bit of a pain
[18:01] <NigeyS> oh eck
[18:02] <eroomde> but potentially better
[18:02] <eroomde> if you want lower noise
[18:03] <NigeyS> so how does that 1 work, those pipe looking things take a tube, that would run into the baloon ?
[18:03] <jonsowman> yep
[18:03] <jonsowman> then you'd need an ADC to sample the sensor
[18:04] <NigeyS> ah right
[18:05] <NigeyS> at this rate picochu-3 may have be a completely new pcb heavily modified :| and shrunk down a bit
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[18:12] <eroomde> if it's for pico habbing, i would go with your instinctas
[18:12] <eroomde> simple and light
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[18:30] <NigeyS> eroomde, think i might stick with the bmp085 for now, and see how it goes, have to nail this gps bug aswell, i dont want to lose this payload.
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[19:01] Nick change: natrium -> natrium42
[19:10] <griffonbot> Received email: Cameron "[UKHAS] Re: Black polyethylene for solar balloons - bulk buying?"
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[19:17] <Upu> rjharrison about ?
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[19:28] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[19:28] <daveake> hello
[19:28] <Lunar_Lander> how's life?
[19:28] <daveake> Busy busy busy. I realised something today about yesterday's flight ...
[19:28] <Dutch-Mill> Hi Lunar_lander
[19:29] <Lunar_Lander> hi Dutch-Mill
[19:29] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[19:29] <Lunar_Lander> I think I failed EP2 and my throat hurts
[19:29] <daveake> .... I noticed that the balloon cord had been cut by the cutdown. Yet the remains of the balloon were still attached ...
[19:29] <daveake> .... this was because the timeout hit 4 hour after launch ....
[19:29] <Lunar_Lander> oh
[19:29] <Lunar_Lander> your flight?
[19:29] <daveake> .... when the payload was in the back of the chase car!!
[19:30] <daveake> That explains why the processor rebooted!
[19:30] <daveake> I checked the photos and the cord wa attached after I collected it from the landing site, so it was cut afterwards
[19:31] <daveake> Good to know the cutdown worked, even if the batteries weren't up to the task of keeping the computer running at the same time!
[19:32] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[19:32] <Lunar_Lander> so the cutdown activated in your car?
[19:32] <daveake> Exactly
[19:32] <Lunar_Lander> damn
[19:32] <Lunar_Lander> hope it didn't burn anything
[19:33] <daveake> Nichrome
[19:33] <daveake> Inside some high-temperature sleeving
[19:33] <daveake> Pretty safe
[19:33] <Lunar_Lander> good
[19:33] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[19:34] <Lunar_Lander> btw EP2=Experimental Physics 2
[19:34] <staylo> interesting lesson to learn though :)
[19:34] <daveake> yes :)
[19:34] <Upu> Sorry to be dumb who did the talk on the Android tracker at the end of the conference ?
[19:34] <Lunar_Lander> tip: not me
[19:34] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[19:35] <Upu> ejcweb
[19:35] <Upu> ping
[19:35] <jonsowman> Upu: yeah it was Ed Cunningham
[19:35] <Upu> ta
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[19:38] <Lunar_Lander> hey jonsowman
[19:38] <jonsowman> hi Lunar_Lander
[19:39] <nosebleedKT> bye all
[19:39] <nosebleedKT> i need sleep :P
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[19:41] <MrCraig> A bit of a long shot but, has anyone here had any experience with the Toshiba TCM8240MD 1.3MP cmos camera?
[19:43] <Lunar_Lander> can you get that at sparkfun?
[19:43] <Lunar_Lander> I think I saw something like that there
[19:44] <MrCraig> It's available at sparkfun yes, but it seems that no one has actually managed to get the best output from it yet. I'm going through forum posts moanign about the solder pin sizes and confusing documentation.
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[19:45] <stilldavid> I'm surprised there's no breakout board for it yet
[19:46] <MrCraig> there's apparently a beta board.
[19:46] <stilldavid> I see in the comments, yeah
[19:46] <Randomskk> MrCraig: so
[19:46] <Randomskk> I've used the slightly smaller/lighter one
[19:46] <Dutch-Mill> Yes there is a board : http://www.flickr.com/photos/arms22/4779025405/
[19:46] <Randomskk> the TCM8230MD iirc
[19:46] <MrCraig> RandomSSK is that the TTL serial data jpeg camera?
[19:46] <Lunar_Lander> yeah MrCraig that was my point that the people there only say that it doesn't work
[19:46] <Randomskk> no
[19:47] <MrCraig> googling
[19:47] <Randomskk> sparkfun also sell it
[19:47] <Randomskk> it's just lower resolution
[19:47] <Randomskk> and I think doesn't do onboard jpeg encoding
[19:47] <Laurenceb_> Randomskk: http://www.coolcomponents.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=23_29&products_id=808
[19:47] <Laurenceb_> youd like that
[19:48] <Randomskk> yea I kinda worked with some of the leaflabs guys a while back and stuff
[19:48] <Randomskk> have chatted to them a fair bit
[19:48] <Randomskk> MrCraig: anyway, http://www.flickr.com/photos/randomskk/3088364166/in/set-72157607851550306 http://www.flickr.com/photos/randomskk/3225194149/in/set-72157607851550306 http://www.flickr.com/photos/randomskk/3057599870/in/set-72157607851550306
[19:48] <MrCraig> 640x480 hmm - vga resolution might be enough, but I really would love the yummy extra pixesl
[19:49] <MrCraig> pixels*
[19:49] <Randomskk> what are you planning on reading it with?
[19:49] <Randomskk> also, check those flickr photos
[19:49] <MrCraig> I'm hoping to put a camera on the flight computer pcb it's self rather than throwing a vendor camera in the payload box.
[19:49] <Randomskk> right, but what microcontroller or flight computer or whatever?
[19:50] <Randomskk> also how much experience have you had with embedded systems?
[19:50] <Randomskk> (and does the -40 do a TTL serial output? I didn't think it did, but I could be wrong)
[19:50] <griffonbot> Received email: Anthony Stirk "[UKHAS] UKHAS 2011 Conference"
[19:51] <MrCraig> experience with embedded systems, negligable. As for the decision on micro processor etc - there is none yet, I'd have to base it on camera choice because I need a processor to handle the data rates of the sensor.
[19:51] <Randomskk> I would say "strongly avoid" then
[19:52] <Randomskk> I was using a 72mhz fairly powerful ARM core and had to write very fast assembler to stand a chance of reading a 128x96 resolution image
[19:52] <MrCraig> Is your reasoning for that the level of processor required? My initial thoughts were of using one of the higher end of the MC68k series.
[19:52] <Randomskk> while I've not seen the MC68k exactly, assuming they're a 6800 core, my recommendation remains "avoid"
[19:53] <Randomskk> unless they have a builtin camera peripheral and several megs of external RAM
[19:53] <Randomskk> the cameras are also extremely annoying to interface
[19:53] <Randomskk> the documentation is very poor, the cameras have a huge number of registers and settings - and this was the simpler one
[19:54] <Randomskk> you have to either solder by hand or get a socket (and no one can find the sockets for general sale in useful quantities) as the camera can't take reflow
[19:55] <jonsowman> eroomde: where are the pics of the rotator?
[19:55] <MrCraig> really sounds like a pain to work with :-/
[19:55] <Randomskk> it took me months
[19:55] <Randomskk> to get a 128x96 image
[19:55] <Randomskk> and even then I couldn't store the image on memory
[19:55] <Randomskk> had to analyse it online
[19:55] <Randomskk> and that was with a logic analyser, scope, etc
[19:55] <Randomskk> and the aforementioned 72mhz ARM core
[19:56] <Randomskk> they are designed for hardware with dedicated camera peripherals and large amounts of RAM. really, they are designed for phones.
[19:56] <MrCraig> That's an impressive processor too
[19:57] <Randomskk> also I was running the camera /way/ below its minimum clock speed to stand a chance of reading the data in time
[19:57] <Randomskk> I had a literal handful of clock cycles on my main CPU to read, process and store each byte
[19:57] <MrCraig> Well - I really don't mind increasing processing power and ram on-board, with due respect to power consumption. I just don't fancy working with tiny pins and undocumented interfaces.
[19:57] <Randomskk> complexity scales up /very/ quickly though, especially if you are designing the PCB or anything
[19:57] <Randomskk> there's a big jump between an arduino/avr and a small computer with ram
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[19:58] <MrCraig> *nods - I remember building a Z80 based machine with RAM about 10-15 years back, I'm sure I still have injuries to my hands from it.
[19:58] <Randomskk> all the code for my stuff is online if you do want to play with it, but yea
[19:58] <Randomskk> basically, get a serial camera module
[19:58] <daveake> My first was a Z80 with a whole 1k bytes
[19:58] <Randomskk> a bit slower, a million times easier.
[19:58] <daveake> 1k in 8 chips
[19:58] <Randomskk> hehe
[19:59] <Randomskk> 1k is a lot of memory!
[19:59] <MrCraig> 1024 bytes! staggering
[19:59] <MrCraig> compared to the pic I worked with earlier this year that's a luxury.
[19:59] <daveake> 8 memory chips sandwiched between 2 pieces of veroboard
[20:00] <daveake> Them were the days ... :p
[20:00] <MrCraig> lol
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[20:19] <number10> thst 1k must have been two 2114s
[20:20] <daveake> 8 2102s
[20:20] <number10> ah yes
[20:21] <number10> those were the days, but you had a luxury of a Z80
[20:21] <number10> compared to the 8080 and 8085 ;-)
[20:23] <daveake> True!
[20:23] <eroomde> enough grandpa
[20:23] <eroomde> (s)
[20:23] <jonsowman> haha
[20:23] <number10> is ther a # oldblokes channel?
[20:24] <SpeedEvil> #c
[20:24] <daveake> Yeah. But it only supports teletypes (they upgraded from card punch machines)
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[20:48] <Lunar_Lander> hi Dan-K2VOL Paradoxial
[20:48] <Paradoxial> ohai
[20:48] <Dan-K2VOL> hi kev
[20:50] <Lunar_Lander> how's life?
[20:54] <Dan-K2VOL> busy workin, u?
[20:58] <Lunar_Lander> same here
[21:02] <griffonbot> Received email: Philip Heron "Re: [UKHAS] UKHAS 2011 Conference"
[21:03] <fsphil-laptop> das onions, they nasty
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[21:10] <Lunar_Lander> yeah cutting onions is not pleasant
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[21:12] <fsphil-laptop> eating them doubly so :)
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[21:13] <Laurenceb_> i worked out how to do the bacterial sampling
[21:13] <Laurenceb_> mini rogallo!!!
[21:14] <Lunar_Lander> xD
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[21:14] <Lunar_Lander> Laurenceb_: new balloon experiment?
[21:14] <Laurenceb_> no
[21:15] <Lunar_Lander> oh ok
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[21:15] <Laurenceb_> http://groups.google.com/group/ukhas/browse_thread/thread/7ebf9e27a3995bbe
[21:15] <Lunar_Lander> ah that you mean
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[21:16] <Laurenceb_> rogallo is decontaminated/sprayed with the antibacterial stuff
[21:17] <nickolai> hello all
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[21:20] <Upu> Eagle question : What layer do you select for a PCB cut out ? Like the locating notch on the Sarantel Antenna ?
[21:21] <Lunar_Lander> ah Laurenceb_
[21:21] <Upu> evening Laurenceb
[21:21] <jonsowman> Upu: i tend to use layer 20 Dimension for the board edge
[21:21] <Upu> thanks
[21:21] <jonsowman> you need to remember to include it in at least one of the gerbers
[21:22] <jonsowman> i tend to use Top Silk
[21:22] <Upu> almost got a decent Eagle library for uBlox and Sarantel
[21:22] <Upu> need to talk dog now though, thanks
[21:22] <jonsowman> np :)
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[21:30] <Laurenceb_> Randomskk: ping
[21:30] <Randomskk> hi
[21:32] <nickolai> hey Lunar_Lander, hey Upu
[21:32] <nickolai> how was the conference?
[21:32] <Laurenceb_> im struggling with mesh networks
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[21:33] <Randomskk> I don't really know anything about them beyond how cool they are
[21:33] <Laurenceb_> if you remember previously i had autopilots as clients and the GCS as the server
[21:33] <Laurenceb_> i dont think that works
[21:33] <Laurenceb_> in realistic situations you get too many packet collisions
[21:34] <Laurenceb_> as the links are going to look similar to a tree with the GCS in the center
[21:34] <Randomskk> yes
[21:34] <Laurenceb_> if the autopilots can intiate packet transfers they all collide as they move down
[21:35] <Laurenceb_> and it 'jams up'
[21:35] <Laurenceb_> way before reaching full capacity
[21:36] <Laurenceb_> i think all data transfers need to be initiated by the GCS
[21:36] <Laurenceb_> so the stack looks like UAVobjects->UAVtalk->buffers->RF22mesh
[21:37] <Laurenceb_> then the GCS alternated between the attached UAVs, sending each a packets
[21:37] <Laurenceb_> *alternates
[21:37] <Laurenceb_> and they reply emptying their buffers
[21:38] <Randomskk> that would help maximise capacity, I guess
[21:38] <Laurenceb_> yeah, unfortunately its still not optimal
[21:38] <Laurenceb_> as only one packet is ever 'in motion' at a time
[21:39] <Laurenceb_> ideally packets could be active in different non interfering parts of the network
[21:39] <Laurenceb_> but ive not clue how youd do that
[21:40] <Laurenceb_> this stuff makes my head hurt :P
[21:41] <Laurenceb_> ive ordered some Si4432 modules from ebay
[21:41] <Laurenceb_> might hack it up to an olimexino
[21:42] <Laurenceb_> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SI4432-433M-wireless-transceiver-module-Distance-1500M-/170710227241?pt=BI_Control_Systems_PLCs&hash=item27bf1f5929
[21:43] <Lunar_Lander> hey nickolai
[21:44] <Lunar_Lander> sorry didn't watch the channel
[21:44] <nickolai> no worries
[21:44] <nickolai> i haven't been on in quite a while
[21:44] <Laurenceb_> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3000M-0-5W-high-power-wireless-transceiver-module-433M-compatible-SI4432-/180736745622?pt=BI_Control_Systems_PLCs&hash=item2a14bfe096
[21:44] <nickolai> Lunar, do u have any experience with moxon antennas?
[21:44] <Laurenceb_> ^scary XD
[21:46] <Laurenceb_> i ordered the legit ones :P
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[21:51] <SpeedEvil> The features look interesting, even if you don't use the 500mW
[21:52] <Laurenceb_> i like the jailtime for breaking OFCOM rules feature
[21:54] <SpeedEvil> It's not breaking ofcom rules to use a 500mW capable module at 10mW
[21:54] <SpeedEvil> Though it's probably not approved.
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[21:55] <Laurenceb_> ill probably grab a olimexino and stick it in some sort of metal box and sma or something
[21:55] <Laurenceb_> *with
[21:57] <Laurenceb_> i just got some nice and shiny looking plastic enclosures from farnell
[21:57] <Laurenceb_> they were only nice and shiny in the datasheet :(
[21:57] <RocketBoy> Its worth noting that 433.92 is outside the airbone section of the 70cms ISM band
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[22:04] <staylo> Laurenceb_: Which ones?
[22:07] <Laurenceb_> hammond polycarbonate ones
[22:08] <Laurenceb_> there scratches and poor moulding burrs
[22:08] <Laurenceb_> or whatever you call them
[22:09] <SpeedEvil> Flame polishing.
[22:09] <SpeedEvil> Flame polishing safety glasses is awesome.
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[22:10] <RocketBoy> are there any (working) hourly run predictors these days?
[22:10] <Lunar_Lander> good night
[22:11] <RocketBoy> night
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[22:12] <staylo> Yeah, all the hammond enclosures seem to have those moulding wossnames to some degree, though they usually still look pretty flash
[22:13] <Laurenceb_> yeah ill go over carefully with a file
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[22:37] <RocketBoy> night all
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[22:45] <Laurenceb_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfYs5C8D4uk&feature=player_embedded#!
[22:46] <Laurenceb_> they are using mavlink :S
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[23:04] <stilldavid> anyone know if dl-fldigi works on OSX Lion?
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[23:05] <stilldavid> Hm, r115.1 does, but not 115.2
[23:05] <Randomskk> yeea
[23:05] <Randomskk> wait, really?
[23:05] <Randomskk> so it's kinda a pain due to new versions of things
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[23:06] <Laurenceb_> grrr i should do a command line RTTY decoder
[23:06] <fsphil-laptop> The last release doesn't work on lion?
[23:07] <Laurenceb_> i managed to get a big improvement in matlab
[23:07] <Randomskk> I can't get it to compile, and the binary just crashes instantly
[23:07] <Randomskk> Laurenceb_: yes please, and make it upload to habitat :P
[23:07] <stilldavid> fsphil-laptop: no, it gave a weird error
[23:07] <stilldavid> should have screengrab'd
[23:08] <Laurenceb_> UKHAS format starts with $$ ?
[23:08] <NigeyS> yup
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[23:08] <Laurenceb_> simple to find
[23:09] <Laurenceb_> can you get a bidirectional pipe with popen in c ?
[23:10] <fsphil-laptop> there's a macbook in the office. wonder if anyone would miss it. for testing of course
[23:10] <Laurenceb_> im thinking 'deep search' program searches in time/frequency for $$ in incloming audio, then spawns a new process to decode each packet if it picks up a header
[23:11] <Laurenceb_> with FLL/DLL to track the data, which it feeds back before quitting if the CRC matches
[23:12] <Laurenceb_> not too hard to do...
[23:15] <Laurenceb_> of course ive said id do this for ages, and its never got past matlab stage
[23:16] <SpeedEvil> Not with popen
[23:19] <SpeedEvil> forktty
[23:19] <SpeedEvil> forkpty
[23:20] <Laurenceb_> interesting
[23:21] <Laurenceb_> i really need to learn some PC based programming - everything i do is for micros :P
[23:31] <zyp> what's the difference?
[23:31] <SpeedEvil> More than one 'process' - an actual operating system.
[23:32] <SpeedEvil> tcp/ip stacks you don't need to write yourself.
[23:32] <fsphil-laptop> libraries :)
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[23:32] <fsphil-laptop> stderr
[23:32] <zyp> good code is good code regardless of the platform
[23:32] <SpeedEvil> Well - yes and no.
[23:33] <SpeedEvil> Good code on a PC can involve shared libraries, and ...
[23:33] <zyp> I'm not saying that good code on one platform is good on another.
[23:33] <SpeedEvil> And the use of 100K to simplifiy the code.
[23:33] <zyp> but if you know how to write good code, you should be able to write good code for any platform
[23:34] <fsphil-laptop> try doing a jpeg encoder with 1k of ram
[23:34] <SpeedEvil> To an extent. But if you know how to write goodcodein python, many of the things you think are good practice are bad practice translated directly into C or asm.
[23:36] <Randomskk> also yes and no, though >_>
[23:36] <Randomskk> some things are just good things to be doing
[23:36] <Randomskk> but yes, often design objectives are different when you're writing software in python than in C
[23:37] <zyp> last week I modeled an algorithm in python before implementing it in asm/C
[23:37] <zyp> or rather, I started on the implementation, found it hard to test, and made a model in python
[23:44] <zyp> I'm arguing that having a lot of resources is no excuse for not minding the resource usage
[23:46] <zyp> that's why generator expressions in python are better practice than list comprehensions
[23:49] <Randomskk> also sexier
[23:51] <NigeyS> nn peeps
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[23:53] <zyp> Randomskk, not much difference in sexyness between () and [] around the question if you ask me
[23:54] <zyp> or is it because () got softer curves than []? ;)
[23:58] <hibby> matlab ftw
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[00:00] --- Tue Oct 18 2011