highaltitude.log.20110922

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[00:01] <Lunar_Lander> oh ok SpeedEvil
[00:01] <Lunar_Lander> hi juxta
[00:02] <Lunar_Lander> SpeedEvil : then I tell him tomorrow
[00:02] <juxta> hi Lunar_Lander
[00:02] <Lunar_Lander> juxta : your flights are covered by the club insurance?
[00:02] <Lunar_Lander> did I get darkside right on that?
[00:02] <juxta> yes
[00:03] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[00:03] <Lunar_Lander> I find it interesting that the guy with HOWEST now has university backing on that issue
[00:04] <Lunar_Lander> at least he wrote that in the mailing list
[00:04] <juxta> ah, right
[00:04] <juxta> havent read that one yet
[00:06] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[00:06] <Lunar_Lander> I had forgotten that a nearby HF lab did a balloon launch
[00:07] <Lunar_Lander> I'll ask them what they did with the insurance stuff
[00:07] <Lunar_Lander> and
[00:07] <Lunar_Lander> http://remhq.com/news_story.php?id=1446
[00:13] <SpeedEvil> If you have a uni library access, look for any balloon research coming out of your uni
[00:14] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[00:14] <Lunar_Lander> AFAIK we only participated in those big ESA launches so far
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[06:58] <daveake> Yawning morning ...
[07:00] <SamSilver_> *passes daveake a cuppa coffee
[07:00] <daveake> *Spits coffee (can't stand it!)
[07:01] <daveake> Tea please. Milk one sugar.
[07:02] <daveake> Lots of goodies in the post yesterday. Restocking so I can rebuild my lost payload
[07:03] <SamSilver_> did the north sea video cam record to sd card?
[07:03] <daveake> Yes.
[07:03] <SamSilver_> well still some hope then
[07:04] <daveake> 8GB in the camera (1 photo every 4-5 secs) and 16GB in the video. Both had capacity in the cards for ~4 hours (I need to check my notes for how much exactly)
[07:04] <daveake> If the payload does get returned to me then yes I think the cards should be fine. The video one is behind a seal.
[07:05] <daveake> (No, a rubber seal, not a Seal) :)
[07:05] <daveake> Well, it might be that too ...
[07:05] <SamSilver_> I was LOLing at that
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[08:18] <griffonbot> Received email: WillD "[UKHAS] Re: Weekend Launch (24th/25th Sept) - WDHAB"
[08:20] <nosebleedKT> Just got the 1600g balloon and 1m chute from RocketBoy :)
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[08:22] <daveake> :-). I got 30" one from him yesterday, to replace my lost chute
[08:23] <nosebleedKT> :)
[08:24] <daveake> Remind me, how big is your payload?
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[08:41] <nosebleedKT> what do u mean?
[08:41] <nosebleedKT> 1kg maybe 1.1kg
[08:43] <daveake> ok, that's what I meant :)
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[09:07] <Elwell> 10:24 < daveake> Remind me, how big is your payload?
[09:07] <daveake> yeah, yeah, yeah ... thought I'd get quoted on that one :p
[09:07] <Elwell> ^^^ That isn't the sort or question one should ask a gentleman in polite society
[09:07] <daveake> lol
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[09:41] <griffonbot> Received email: Philip Heron "Re: [UKHAS] Re: Weekend Launch (24th/25th Sept) - WDHAB"
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[09:53] <griffonbot> Received email: WillD "[UKHAS] Re: Weekend Launch (24th/25th Sept) - WDHAB"
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[10:57] <fsphil> is longitude -180 the same as +180?
[10:59] <daveake> Yes
[10:59] <daveake> Just how far do you expect to be flying? ;)
[10:59] <fsphil> going to do a horus+1 :)
[11:00] <daveake> lol
[11:00] <fsphil> nah, just commenting on some code - the range of a variable
[11:00] <fsphil> wondering if it's -180-180 or -179-180
[11:00] <fsphil> or -180-179
[11:00] <fsphil> suppose it doesn't really matter
[11:01] <fsphil> that won't work actually. -179.9999 couldn't expressed in -179-180
[11:01] <daveake> Nope. -180 to +180.
[11:01] <fsphil> I'll stick to that
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[11:04] Nick change: Elwell -> baconista
[11:04] Nick change: baconista -> Elwell
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[11:26] <DanielRichman> -180 < x <= 180
[11:27] <DanielRichman> s/$/ (?)/
[11:27] <fsphil> yea
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[11:44] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[11:46] <fsphil> yoyo
[11:47] <Lunar_Lander> how is life?
[11:48] <fsphil> busy today
[11:48] <fsphil> you?
[11:48] <Lunar_Lander> yeah same here
[11:48] <Lunar_Lander> I got an answer from Muenster
[11:48] <Lunar_Lander> they fly their balloon for B.Sc. thesises and so on with the weather service
[11:48] <Lunar_Lander> they said that we could possible cooperate there
[11:50] <fsphil> good sign
[11:51] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[11:51] <Lunar_Lander> and commercial sign
[11:51] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[11:51] <Lunar_Lander> (if you know MST3K)
[11:51] <Lunar_Lander> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WumiNy5Ade8
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[11:57] <Lunar_Lander> fsphil: the laboratories have a big walk-in fridge
[11:57] <Lunar_Lander> good for a cold test?
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[11:59] <fsphil> might be good for testing batteries
[11:59] <fsphil> how cold does it get?
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[12:00] <Lunar_Lander> have to ask that
[12:00] <Lunar_Lander> but I think they can fill it with argon from the outside
[12:00] <Lunar_Lander> _=
[12:00] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[12:01] <fsphil> what you really want is a vacuum chamber :)
[12:01] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[12:01] <Lunar_Lander> that should be possible too I hope :)
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[12:01] <fsphil> nice
[12:03] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
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[12:09] <Lunar_Lander> OK cu later :)
[12:09] <Lunar_Lander> cu fsphil
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[12:39] <costyn> any one have experience with the mobsendat kit? http://www.freetronics.com/products/mobsendat
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[12:41] <Darkside> costyn: yes, dont use it
[12:41] <Darkside> :-)
[12:41] <daveake> :)
[12:41] <Darkside> and he won't ever be making any more
[12:42] <Darkside> costyn: it was designed, in part, with the project horus group, and we flew one on a flight early this year
[12:43] <j__> hi guys... in relation to uploading data from fldigi to spacenear, can anybody upload the habhub form?
[12:44] <Darkside> costyn: i think about 20 boards were made in the initial run, and tbh they aren't all that good
[12:45] <costyn> Darkside: ok good to know. seems like my favorite combo at the moment is the seeeduino stalker v2 with gps-bee; still have to figure out other sensors
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[12:45] <Darkside> you could just use a protoshield and wire everything up on that
[12:46] <Darkside> i've done that for a few payloads
[12:46] <costyn> how do you guys remote control camera's? i have a old sony cybershot which I already too apart but looks to be kinda complicated to find and solder some wirs to the bits on the circuit that control the shutter button
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[12:46] <Darkside> costyn: most of us use Canon cameras that support the CHDK firmware
[12:46] <costyn> Darkside: ok, so you can control them with gphoto?
[12:46] <Darkside> uhh
[12:47] <Darkside> well, they do automated photo shooting stuff
[12:47] <Darkside> invervalvometer?
[12:47] <costyn> ah ok
[12:47] <Darkside> i forget what its called
[12:47] <Darkside> taking photos every X seconds
[12:47] <costyn> got it :)
[12:47] <Darkside> other cameras, yes, you'd have to figure out a way of triggering it
[12:47] <daveake> Search for CHDK and it'll show a list of supported cameras. Then go to wikipedia and they have the weights of all the models. Then off to ebay to see what you can find.
[12:47] <Darkside> or just fly a video camera :-)
[12:48] <costyn> :) well I've already got this camera for cheep, I'll think I'll make a mount for a miniservo to press the shutter button
[12:48] <Darkside> eeew
[12:48] <daveake> Take it apart and fire electrically :)
[12:48] <Darkside> yeah
[12:49] <Darkside> mechanical solutions are just asking for trouble
[12:49] <costyn> daveake: tried that, but couldn't find the contact points
[12:49] <Darkside> weird things happen when you get to -40 degrees
[12:49] <j__> we are planning a launch of a baloon in the next month, but beforehand would like to carry out testing on spacenear.net. What would be accepted to put as the flight details on the habhub form?
[12:49] <daveake> You didn't try hard enough :)
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[12:50] <daveake> You should be able to get a Canon for £15 - £30
[12:50] <costyn> daveake: no perhaps. I got to a point where I thought a mechanical system might be easier, but I might have to go deeper... <inception>
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[12:50] <daveake> As Darkside says, cold temps can mess things up. I wouldn't want to use a mechanical method of firing.
[12:51] <costyn> daveake: ok noted, thanks
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[12:54] <fsphil> j__, you need to speak to Randomskk or DanielRichman
[12:54] <fsphil> not sure if either are here atm
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[12:55] <fsphil> I must find out how to add documents
[12:58] <fsphil> http://habhub.org/predict/#!/uuid=536e4b7a0095ffb12b050450177c75cfc6014330
[12:58] <fsphil> lovely
[13:03] <daveake> Nice. Even if it makes land it'll take you a day to catch up!
[13:03] <j__> alright , thank you!
[13:04] <costyn> fsphil: I was close to the landing spot last weekend; up on the Isle of Mull
[13:04] <costyn> beautiful place :)
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[13:10] <DanielRichman> j__: can't talk right now; try http://habhub.org/genpayload; pastebin and email the request to the mailing list :-)
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[13:24] <fsphil> it looks it costyn, I'd love to head up there
[13:25] <fsphil> only part of scotland I've been to is Edinburgh
[13:30] <daveake> Almost OT, but slightly related ... http://www.drawastickman.com/
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[13:44] <costyn> daveake: pretty cool
[13:45] <daveake> Even has a balloon :)
[13:47] <costyn> daveake: ah, that was the slight OT part of it?
[13:48] <costyn> s/slight/slightly/
[13:48] <daveake> :)
[13:48] <daveake> Slightly on topic
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[14:31] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[14:31] <SpeedEvil> lo
[14:32] <Lunar_Lander> SpeedEvil : talked to my prof today and to another prof at Muenster who have a balloon project already
[14:32] <Lunar_Lander> they do it with the german met office and maybe we can do a cooperation there
[14:34] <SpeedEvil> :)
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[14:40] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[14:40] <Lunar_Lander> or really move the whole stuff to morocco
[14:40] <Lunar_Lander> xD
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[14:45] <Lunar_Lander> dumb question
[14:46] <Lunar_Lander> do the microSD/SD/OpenLog breakouts accept SDHC cards?
[14:48] <Darkside> no, thats a good question
[14:48] <Darkside> i'm not sure actually
[14:48] <SpeedEvil> SDHC is 'just' a different data format for the sector addresses.
[14:48] <SpeedEvil> So the thingy has to explicitly support it if it does high level stuff.
[14:49] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[14:49] <Zuph> Lunar_Lander: New firmware for the OpenLog supports SDHC
[14:49] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[14:49] <Lunar_Lander> thanks
[14:49] <Zuph> Lunar_Lander: It's kind of a pain to flash new firmware, though.
[14:49] <Lunar_Lander> oh
[14:49] <Zuph> need to make a custom cable.
[14:49] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[14:50] <Zuph> Also, new firmware might break existing code you've got. Syntax on some commands has changed.
[14:50] <SpeedEvil> Zuph: You'd think they'd be able to use some sort of flash memory connected to the device to reflash with. :)
[14:51] <Zuph> SpeedEvil: Hah! They're using like 99% of the flash on the 328 just for simple FAT32 + SD access :-p
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[14:53] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[14:53] <Lunar_Lander> YAY I found some cards on ebay that have no HC
[14:54] <SpeedEvil> Of course, that's not the silly part.
[14:54] <Lunar_Lander> 512 MB and even 256 MB
[14:54] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[14:54] <SpeedEvil> The silly part is that the SD cards have a stm32 class micro in.
[14:55] <SpeedEvil> And they could do a 'nice' file-based protocol easily if you don't care about speed
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[14:59] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[15:04] Nick change: sofii-chan -> spacekitteh
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[15:19] <fsphil> they could probably make a simple flight computer SpeedEvil :)
[15:20] <SpeedEvil> :)
[15:21] <fsphil> this is where open hardware would be nice. you could put the flight computer software onto a gps receiver
[15:21] <fsphil> gps + ntx2 + resistors + battery. job done
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[15:21] <SpeedEvil> Indeed
[15:23] <costyn> any reason people use the 5mW NTX2 instaed of the cheaper more powerful TX2H http://www.radiometrix.com/content/tx2h
[15:23] <Lunar_Lander> yes, in england it's forbidden
[15:24] <costyn> Lunar_Lander: ok so sending at 5mW at altitude is ok, but 25 isn't
[15:24] <costyn> Lunar_Lander: what about here in Europe
[15:24] <Lunar_Lander> 10mW
[15:24] <Lunar_Lander> here you can use all amateur radio AFAIK
[15:26] <fsphil> it's a UK-only restriction afaik
[15:27] <fsphil> it's got the nice side-effect of making the payloads here quite power efficient though
[15:27] <fsphil> not that that matters for most flights, but if you end up floating it is a big help :)
[15:27] <costyn> fsphil: ok :) good to know
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[15:59] <Lunar_Lander> costyn : you are in NL or in B?
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[16:39] <Lunar_Lander> hi daveake_
[16:39] <daveake_> brb
[16:39] <daveake_> back
[16:40] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[16:44] <Lunar_Lander> how are you today?
[16:47] <daveake_> Aside from the customer-from-hell proving that IQ starts below zero, fine :)
[16:48] <Lunar_Lander> ROFL
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[17:01] <costyn> Lunar_Lander: I'm in NL
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[17:07] <UpuMobile> randomly I've just bumped into Number10 in Buttermere
[17:08] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[17:08] <Lunar_Lander> costyn : ah
[17:08] <Lunar_Lander> may I ask which province?
[17:09] <costyn> Lunar_Lander: sure, I'm in Rijswijk, close to Den Haag, province Zuid Holland
[17:09] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[17:09] <Lunar_Lander> I am in Osnabruck, Lower Saxony
[17:09] <costyn> Lunar_Lander: ah
[17:09] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[17:10] <Lunar_Lander> do you know Osnabruck and Muenster?
[17:10] <costyn> Lunar_Lander: no, I don't think it's a part of Germany I've ever been
[17:10] <Lunar_Lander> ah ok
[17:11] <Lunar_Lander> I think you can describe it that it is close to Enschede
[17:11] <costyn> Lunar_Lander: yes,I was just looking on google maps :)
[17:11] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[17:11] <costyn> Lunar_Lander: I drove past it a couple times on the way to Magdeburg
[17:11] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[17:11] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[17:11] <costyn> but that's about it :)
[17:12] <costyn> gonna have some dinner now... ttyl!
[17:12] <Lunar_Lander> in Muenster is a university of applied sciences which has a balloon project
[17:12] <Lunar_Lander> and they have that insurance stuff cleared
[17:12] <Lunar_Lander> maybe they and us can cooperate
[17:13] <costyn> ah cool
[17:15] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[17:15] <Lunar_Lander> that is also for daveake_
[17:15] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[17:16] <daveake_> They cover accidents at sea, then?
[17:18] <Lunar_Lander> hm?
[17:18] <Lunar_Lander> how do you mean
[17:18] <daveake_> Insurance. Balloons. Landing in the sea.
[17:19] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[17:19] <Lunar_Lander> don't know about that
[17:19] <daveake_> Not a serious question :)
[17:20] <Lunar_Lander> btw fsphil the fridge only goes down to +7°C
[17:20] <Lunar_Lander> but we got another that goes down to -80°C
[17:20] <daveake_> Freezer will do -20, or more if it has a "boost" switch
[17:20] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[17:21] <Lunar_Lander> btw
[17:21] <Lunar_Lander> do you know the best trick?
[17:21] <Lunar_Lander> every time before I go cycling I ask my mother "Do you still need something from the supermarket?"
[17:21] <Lunar_Lander> so that I have an excuse to stop by at the supermarket
[17:21] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[17:24] <SpeedEvil> Why do you need an excuse?
[17:24] <SpeedEvil> I was atonished mine goes down to -55 or so.
[17:24] <SpeedEvil> (domestic freezer)
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[17:25] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[17:25] <Lunar_Lander> the excuse thing was only a joke
[17:25] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[17:26] <SpeedEvil> ah
[17:26] <SpeedEvil> too tired.
[17:26] <fsphil> UpuMobile, how did you know? :)
[17:30] <UpuMobile> hey fsphil
[17:30] <UpuMobile> recognised me from a picture
[17:30] <UpuMobile> totally random
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[17:30] <UpuMobile> best thing is I had the pink gaffer in the boot :)
[17:30] <UpuMobile> so have a picture
[17:30] <daveake_> think pink
[17:31] <UpuMobile> we just got back from doign Haystacks and someone was calling my name from the pub
[17:31] <fsphil> the pink, it's spreading!
[17:31] <UpuMobile> totally random
[17:32] <UpuMobile> had a good chat about habbing much to the annoyance of the wives
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[17:32] <fsphil> haha
[17:33] <UpuMobile> should have seen the looks I got walking from the car park in Buttermere with a roll of pink gaffer
[17:33] <fsphil> it's that pink eh?
[17:33] <fsphil> the pictures don't do it justice I think
[17:34] <UpuMobile> yeah very
[17:34] <daveake_> You've probably doubled the sales of pink gaffer tape
[17:34] <UpuMobile> to 2 units a year probably :)
[17:34] <daveake_> exactly :)
[17:34] <UpuMobile> Some others have bought some in here :)
[17:34] <UpuMobile> maybe not pink
[17:35] <fsphil> I got some yellow and orange
[17:36] <fsphil> I made up a payload box with just the yellow, but I might make another one with each surface a different colour
[17:37] <UpuMobile> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15021323
[17:37] <fsphil> just was reading that -- interesting that it's orbit takes it over the uk
[17:37] <UpuMobile> ok off to the pub
[17:37] <UpuMobile> laters
[17:38] <fsphil> toodles
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[17:54] <daveake_> fsphil Rubik's payload
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[18:01] <Lunar_Lander> oh yeah
[18:02] <Lunar_Lander> I need to get a brush to paint my payload :)
[18:02] <fsphil-laptop> totally :)
[18:02] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[18:03] <fsphil-laptop> wish I'd gotten more colours now :)
[18:03] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[18:03] <fsphil-laptop> might get some of UpuMobile's pink tape when I'm over yonder
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[18:03] <Lunar_Lander> and I talked to alphasense, the company that makes those electrolytic gas sensors and they have in their datasheet the pressure range "80-120 kPa"
[18:03] <fsphil-laptop> at the rate the caa are moving, my launch will be after the conference
[18:04] <Lunar_Lander> so I asked them about pressures encountered on the balloon mission
[18:04] <Lunar_Lander> they said that won't be a problem, rather the low temperature
[18:04] <Lunar_Lander> I then replied "experience shows..." xD
[18:04] <Lunar_Lander> that balloon boxes stay warm
[18:04] <Lunar_Lander> and above -30°C
[18:05] <Lunar_Lander> but then an e-mail came that he is out of office today and tomorrow
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[18:13] <fsphil-laptop> hmm.. someone's launching a balloon from one of the scottlish islands
[18:16] <Lunar_Lander> cool
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[18:17] <fsphil-laptop> aah, it's for this: http://ncasweb.leeds.ac.uk/arransummerschool/index.php
[18:18] <fsphil-laptop> it's an actual radiosonde
[18:19] <fsphil-laptop> "Once each day a radiosonde will be launched from Loch Ranza, giving profiles of wind, temperature, pressure and humidity. Your group will be responsible for one of these launches. After the ascent has finished, the data will be available on-line for you to be able to plot wind speed, direction, temperature, humidity and potential temperature against height, or on one of the special tephigram charts. You can then look for
[18:19] <fsphil-laptop> features that relate to the synoptic charts and your weather forecasts"
[18:19] <fsphil-laptop> if I launched this weekend it would land very near where they are
[18:20] <fsphil-laptop> wonder what frequency they're using
[18:20] <fsphil-laptop> though the software for decoding radiosonde data is for windows only
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[18:23] <Lunar_Lander> yea
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[18:32] <Lunar_Lander> btw
[18:32] <Lunar_Lander> here we will do the chute test http://v2.cache4.c.bigcache.googleapis.com/static.panoramio.com/photos/original/5755503.jpg?redirect_counter=1
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[18:46] <Lunar_Lander> hello jcoxon
[18:47] <Lunar_Lander> daveake : the Lassen IQ also gives out NMEA sentences?
[18:49] <fsphil> oooh: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15017484
[18:49] <fsphil> bbl
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[18:53] <daveake> Lunar_Lander - yes. It has 2 serial ports. As it comes, one delivers NMEA and the other is a proprietary format.
[18:54] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[18:54] <Lunar_Lander> is there an explaination of the eight pins somewhere?
[18:56] <daveake> Yes, in the manual.
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[18:56] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[18:56] <daveake> You just need to connect GND, +3V3 and the serial out.
[18:56] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[18:56] <Lunar_Lander> TX and RX I assume?
[18:57] <daveake> Rx just goes to +ve via a resistor
[18:57] <daveake> Tx goes to your flight computer
[18:58] <Lunar_Lander> you connect RX and VCC together (with the resistor)?
[18:58] <daveake> Yes, so it doesn't "see" any noise on an open pin.
[18:59] <Lunar_Lander> ah
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[19:20] <Lunar_Lander> wb jcoxon and hello mattltm_mob
[19:20] <mattltm_mob> hi lunar
[19:23] <Lunar_Lander> how are you?
[19:23] <mattltm_mob> good Ta.
[19:24] <Lunar_Lander> same here
[19:24] <Lunar_Lander> did you try to set up the Venus gps yet?
[19:25] <mattltm_mob> the Venus? I have had it running for a while now.
[19:25] <Lunar_Lander> how long did it take to get a lock?
[19:26] <mattltm_mob> mine takes about 60 seconds from cold start.
[19:26] <Lunar_Lander> hm
[19:26] <Lunar_Lander> mine runs on the outside window sill for 30 minutes without any lock
[19:26] <mattltm_mob> yours still playing up?
[19:26] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[19:26] <mattltm_mob> bad antenna connection maybe?
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[19:27] <Lunar_Lander> I have screwed on the antenna as it should
[19:27] <Lunar_Lander> on that GUI I can see that it receives two satellites
[19:28] <Lunar_Lander> from time to time others pop up and disappear
[19:28] <Lunar_Lander> always with an SNR of 0
[19:28] <mattltm_mob> strange.
[19:29] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[19:29] <Lunar_Lander> maybe broken?
[19:30] <mattltm_mob> maybe. do you have another gps.
[19:31] <nosebleedKT> http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/isslivestream.asx
[19:31] <nosebleedKT> EPIC
[19:31] <nosebleedKT> NOW ALL
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[19:33] <mattltm_mob> what is it?
[19:34] <Lunar_Lander> mattltm_mob : yes a gpsbee is on its way to me
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[19:35] <mattltm_mob> cool. you can test it.
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[19:37] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[19:37] <Lunar_Lander> hi Dan-K2VOL
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[19:58] <Dan-K2VOL> hey
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[20:33] <Laurenceb> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15017484
[20:33] <Laurenceb> surely theyd have to determine the position of the detectors rather accuraterly for that to work
[20:34] <BrainDamage> that thing is bouncing on all the channels I'm in
[20:35] <SpeedEvil> 10ns is only 10 feet
[20:35] <SpeedEvil> GPS is accurate to that sort of level.
[20:35] Action: SpeedEvil wants it to be true.
[20:36] <SpeedEvil> A world in which we can't exceed light speed is boring.
[20:36] Action: SpeedEvil wants warp drive.
[20:36] <BrainDamage> there's about 800 km between cern & gran sasso, which means a 2-3ms delay
[20:37] <BrainDamage> so they'd have to measure differences with few ns res over ms, which is ok
[20:38] <SpeedEvil> Phase delay?
[20:39] <BrainDamage> yeah, simply propagation delay at c
[20:43] <NigeyS> i think theyre changing into other sorts of particles, and as the change occurs theyre getting an inflationary type kick that causes them to exceed c
[20:43] <NigeyS> :P
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[20:51] <nosebleedKT> CERN experiment beat the Speed of light !!!!
[20:51] <nosebleedKT> Netrinos run 60ns faster than the light's speed !
[20:57] <SpeedEvil> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15009337
[20:58] <Paradoxial> 60ns isn't a ratio of distance to time
[21:00] <SpeedEvil> http://legault.perso.sfr.fr/EM400.html
[21:00] <SpeedEvil> Wow - simply wow
[21:01] <SpeedEvil> I vaguely remember someone in another vchannel saying it's over 400km
[21:01] <SpeedEvil> The above is autoguided satellite tracking, including of a tumbling reentering sat
[21:01] <SpeedEvil> The ISS video is _awesome_
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[21:09] <jcoxon> http://m6jcx.no-ip.org/dl-fldigi/index.html
[21:10] <fsphil> haha, you got hell working
[21:10] <jcoxon> i've added Feldhell option now
[21:10] <jcoxon> its a bit hacked
[21:10] <SpeedEvil> On a related matter to the above.
[21:10] <DanielRichman> jcoxon: you got it working :-) ?
[21:10] <SpeedEvil> He's in france - I wonder which bit of france - and if he'd be interested in observing balloons via GPS
[21:10] <jcoxon> DanielRichman, nah this is bash screenshot magic
[21:11] <DanielRichman> aah :p
[21:11] <jcoxon> oi
[21:11] <jcoxon> someone changed it to rtty
[21:11] <jcoxon> change it back
[21:11] <fsphil> wasn't me
[21:11] <fsphil> the waterfall image is still pretty big
[21:12] Action: SpeedEvil wonders about observing ISS eclipsing venus
[21:12] <fsphil> now that would need precise predictions
[21:13] <jcoxon> my payload has been running since 9am this morning
[21:13] <jcoxon> solar + 85mAh lipo
[21:13] <jcoxon> though no GPS
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[21:19] <SpeedEvil> Wjat's the solar?
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[21:19] <SpeedEvil> And you're pointing it appropriately so the average solar flux of a rotating body is about right?
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[21:28] <jcoxon> oh i'll leave this on tomorrow
[21:28] <jcoxon> i'll set it up for the HOWEST flight
[21:28] <jcoxon> if someone wants to tune it
[21:30] Action: Laurenceb was thinking about a ~Km range kinect device
[21:30] <fsphil-laptop> is that launch definitely tomorrow?
[21:31] <Laurenceb> using frequency swept laser instead of patterning
[21:36] <SpeedEvil> dye?
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[21:52] <Laurenceb> no, based on that french guys work
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[21:54] <Laurenceb> http://redlum.xohp.pagesperso-orange.fr/
[21:56] <Laurenceb> you can frequency sweep normal laser diodes
[21:57] <Laurenceb> then you can use a beamsplitter of some description to project a reference onto the image plane/photodiode
[21:57] <Laurenceb> really simple laser rangefinder with no crazy high speed stuff
[22:02] <Laurenceb> im wondering if you can do it with a highish speed camera and reference projection onto the image plane
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[22:02] <Laurenceb> itd be vulnerable to object motion in the image causing the speckle pattern to shift
[22:07] <Laurenceb> but its a completely different way to do laser ranging - with a photodiode its really simple
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[22:19] <SpeedEvil> Oh - right
[22:19] <SpeedEvil> Frequency sweep by modulating the current?
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[22:28] <Laurenceb> yes
[22:29] <Laurenceb> you can think about it in terms of changing the number of wavelenghts to the target
[22:30] <Laurenceb> theres a video on his site somewhere
[22:32] <Laurenceb> http://redlum.xohp.pagesperso-orange.fr/laser/pics/MVI_6066.mov
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[22:32] <Laurenceb> you see when it goes single mode, the peak moves slightly
[22:33] <Laurenceb> http://redlum.xohp.pagesperso-orange.fr/laser/modeanalysis.html <- so epic
[22:35] <Laurenceb> http://redlum.xohp.pagesperso-orange.fr/laser/ECDL-test.html#HL6385 <- that too
[22:38] <Laurenceb> that site is awesome
[22:43] <SpeedEvil> Umm.
[22:43] <SpeedEvil> Won't that only work for ranging targets that are exactly normal to the beam, and are flat?
[22:43] <Laurenceb> no
[22:43] <SpeedEvil> Sorry - I'm not thinking right at the moment - head feels packed with wool.
[22:43] <Laurenceb> :/
[22:44] <SpeedEvil> Doesn't the SNR drop to effectively zero, as all of the superposed signals are not in sync?
[22:44] <Laurenceb> anything that scatters back
[22:44] <Laurenceb> you could have multiple objects and fft to find their distances
[22:45] <SpeedEvil> Sure - you can FFT.
[22:46] <SpeedEvil> But when you sum a million different sinewaves at a slightly different frequency and random phase - you just get noise
[22:46] <SpeedEvil> Rahter than anything you can usefully FFT
[22:47] <Laurenceb> yeah... yet you still get light reflected back
[22:47] <Laurenceb> its something i never understand about quantum
[22:47] <SpeedEvil> Or are you cheating - and sort-of-doing doppler
[22:47] <Laurenceb> yes, thats exactly what it is
[22:48] <Laurenceb> 'induced' doppler
[22:48] <SpeedEvil> You can smoothly vary the frequecy of the laser diode?
[22:48] <SpeedEvil> Or at least - vary it in small enough jumps that the outgoing and incoming light are beating at a few MHz?
[22:49] <SpeedEvil> Neat.
[22:49] <Laurenceb> yes
[22:49] <Laurenceb> you just vary the current
[22:49] <SpeedEvil> Hmm, funky.
[22:50] <SpeedEvil> I thought mode jumps were too widely spaced for that
[22:50] <Laurenceb> you can easily change wavenumber by 1/mm
[22:51] <Laurenceb> and do it fast, say over 1us if you want
[22:52] <Laurenceb> if you did it over say a few ms, then sample at a few Msps
[22:52] <Laurenceb> then youd have lots of resolution
[22:52] <SpeedEvil> Yeah - so you beat with the reference signal, and slew the frequency, and the range and the slewrate give you the differential frequency
[22:52] <Laurenceb> yes
[22:52] <SpeedEvil> Which tells you the range(s) indirectly.
[22:52] <Laurenceb> but yeah the issue with scattering of coherent light has always confused me
[22:53] <Laurenceb> how come it doesnt cancle to give ~0
[22:53] <Laurenceb> aiui quantum mechanically its a case of renormalisation
[22:53] <SpeedEvil> In this case, you can ignore the coherence.
[22:53] <Laurenceb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normalizable_wave_function
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[22:53] <SpeedEvil> It'll all sum to some I and Q and freqency bin
[22:53] <Laurenceb> you just stick in fudge factors to get the right probabilities
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[22:54] <SpeedEvil> This is conceptually similar - though neater - than my idea
[22:54] <SpeedEvil> Take a 10-100MHz squarewave, modulate both a laser, and a reciever diode with it
[22:54] <SpeedEvil> Look at the envelope out of the reciever diode after it bounces off the target
[22:55] <SpeedEvil> The combination of synchronus demodulationn (or FFT), and a narrowband optical filter, and optical gain with lenses can add up to stupid gains.
[22:57] <Laurenceb> yeah
[22:58] <Laurenceb> frequency swept laser has the advantage that you can use more sane frequencies
[22:59] <Laurenceb> i guess with frequency swept laser you'd have to FFT and look for a peak
[23:00] <SpeedEvil> Indeed.
[23:00] <SpeedEvil> Or sweep it irregularly, and look for harmonics of the sweep frequency, or something like that
[23:04] <Lunar_Lander> do you want to make a LIDAR?
[23:04] <Laurenceb> yes
[23:04] <Laurenceb> http://science.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2441350&cid=37484194
[23:05] <Laurenceb> interesting... ownder what happens if you scale the times and ranges
[23:05] <Lunar_Lander> yea
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[23:09] Action: SpeedEvil ponders negative refractive index of matter for neutrinos.
[23:10] Action: Laurenceb wonders about something involving data cables
[23:10] <Laurenceb> and or gps coax cable
[23:11] <Laurenceb> if their clock is slow due to gps cable delay, the neutrinos arrive early
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[23:11] <SpeedEvil> Umm
[23:11] <SpeedEvil> GPS cable decay?
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[23:12] <SpeedEvil> Oh - you mean the time being slightly off, not the distabce
[23:20] <Laurenceb> *delay
[23:20] Action: Laurenceb zzz
[23:24] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[23:25] <Lunar_Lander> why does zzz depict sleep?
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[23:25] <Lunar_Lander> I mean in all cartoons or so ZZZZ indicates someone is sleeping
[23:25] <Lunar_Lander> ah http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091211211338AAaXAvO
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[23:31] <Lunar_Lander> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYuJA0oaw4s&feature=related
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[00:00] --- Fri Sep 23 2011