highaltitude.log.20110916

[00:01] <Demon> I am getting annoying with all those questions
[00:03] <Demon> Am i ?
[00:03] <Randomskk> no it's fine, you can ask all the questions you want, but a lot of them could be answered by a quick google search or by reading the UKHAS wiki
[00:03] <Randomskk> just don't expect an answer for all of them right away and you'll be fine
[00:04] Action: Randomskk goes to sleep
[00:04] <Demon> That's very true
[00:04] Action: Demon slaps himself
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[00:08] <Demon> Humpf.
[00:09] <Demon> 21K seems fair for the sky to turn black.
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[00:46] <Lunar_Lander> natrium42 : are you there?
[00:48] <natrium42> yo Lunar_Lander
[00:48] <natrium42> du hast mich gefragt und ich hab nichts gesagt
[00:51] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[00:51] <Lunar_Lander> wie gehts?
[01:05] <natrium42> gut, und dir?
[01:07] <Lunar_Lander> mir auch, danke
[01:08] <Lunar_Lander> heute war auf der uni jemand aus novosibirsk
[01:12] <Lunar_Lander> which was quite cool
[01:12] <Lunar_Lander> he spoke about molecular research, but was also interested in the balloon project
[01:15] <natrium42> neat
[01:17] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[01:17] <Lunar_Lander> but I think his institute doesn't have balloon experiments
[01:18] <Lunar_Lander> they work on chemical kinetics and combustion
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[01:27] <Lunar_Lander> and now good night
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[05:55] <Lunar_Lander> hello, good morning
[06:01] <Darkside> hi
[06:02] <Lunar_Lander> hi Darkside
[06:05] <eroomde> morning
[06:06] <Darkside> hey eroomde
[06:06] <Darkside> i was at a talk about gravity waves the other day
[06:06] <eroomde> oh?
[06:06] <Darkside> the guy reckons what we were seeing wasn't gravity waves, the period was too short
[06:06] <Darkside> it was probably the buoyancy period of the balloon
[06:06] <eroomde> awesome!
[06:06] <eroomde> what sort of period is typical?
[06:07] <Darkside> >10 min
[06:07] <eroomde> ah right
[06:07] <Darkside> anyway, he was involved in the french project, doing the super-pressures over antarctica
[06:07] <eroomde> that's very interesting to know
[06:07] <eroomde> ah - launched out in mcmurdo?
[06:07] <Darkside> the balloons they use are 10m diameter mylar spheres
[06:07] <Darkside> yep
[06:07] <Darkside> apparently the had some of them birst while going over mountain ranges
[06:08] <Darkside> as they ascended by 1km in about 5 minutes and the overpressure burst the balloon
[06:08] <eroomde> yes i read a good paper on optimising super pressure shapes
[06:08] <eroomde> less than about 16m dia, 16 gores cut to make a sphere seemed optimum
[06:08] <Darkside> yeah
[06:08] <Darkside> these were floating around 17km
[06:08] <Darkside> still, he was a bit... high and mighty
[06:08] <eroomde> the pumpkin shape is only for big stuff
[06:09] <Darkside> 'oh, why don't you fly your payloads on one of out balloons and do it properly"
[06:09] <Darkside> yep thanks mate, i don't have $50000 to drop on that
[06:09] <eroomde> scientists usually say that
[06:09] <Darkside> heh
[06:09] <eroomde> then when you overtake them they come running to you
[06:09] <Darkside> he was somewhat impressed by the 40km altitude tho
[06:10] <Darkside> also, new paylaod weight is 134 grams
[06:10] <Darkside> my problem is batteries
[06:10] <eroomde> we had nasa guys dripping saliva infront of us after our talk on cheap parachute testing at the aiaa conference
[06:10] <Darkside> next version of micronut will have a 3v to 3.3v boost converter
[06:10] <Darkside> heh
[06:11] <eroomde> yeah batteries/power consumption are the attack vector on which to conquor light payloads
[06:11] <eroomde> i am convinced
[06:11] <Darkside> yup
[06:11] <Darkside> i'm thinking 2 lithium AAs, and a boost converter
[06:11] <eroomde> how about 1?
[06:11] <eroomde> or a AAA?
[06:12] <Darkside> not if i want >10 hours runtime
[06:12] <eroomde> this is like a scrap version of that 'social network' film scene
[06:12] <Darkside> maybe if i lower the duty cycle for the GPS
[06:12] <Darkside> eh?
[06:12] <Darkside> i haven't seen that movie
[06:12] <eroomde> 'you know what's coller that two AAs? ONE AA!'
[06:12] <Darkside> ooookay
[06:12] <eroomde> (you know what's cooler than selling for a million dollars - selling for a billion dollars)
[06:12] <Darkside> oh
[06:13] <Darkside> but yeah, boost converter is the way forward i think
[06:13] <eroomde> the buddhists across our road are doing a 24hr chant
[06:13] <Darkside> we'll do some testing with an external PCB (probably a pololou one) then integrate it into the board
[06:13] <eroomde> it's quite soothing actually, wafting across the road
[06:13] <Darkside> haha
[06:13] <eroomde> it's a very english buddhism
[06:14] <Lunar_Lander> eroomde: even after the whole parachute testing on balloons that NASA did in the 70's?
[06:14] <eroomde> all tea-breaks and cucumber sandwhiches
[06:14] <eroomde> Lunar_Lander: what they liked was that we got similar data (for subscale parachutes) for less than the price of them procurring a pencil
[06:14] <Darkside> http://www.pololu.com/catalog/product/791
[06:15] <Darkside> might use one of these
[06:15] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[06:15] <eroomde> they are trapped by that 70s data
[06:15] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[06:15] <Lunar_Lander> no new tests from them since then?
[06:15] <eroomde> it was so so expensive to get, no one will research new parachute types cos it costs so much to qualify them
[06:15] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[06:15] <eroomde> so they all just use viking-style disc-gap-banf parachutes
[06:15] <Lunar_Lander> but now you are there :)
[06:15] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[06:15] <eroomde> who fit within their empircal data sets
[06:15] <eroomde> the 'viking box'
[06:15] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[06:15] <eroomde> yeah we can help :)
[06:15] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[06:16] <eroomde> we just need to get supersonic now
[06:16] <Lunar_Lander> "Ed's Supersonic Parachute Research"
[06:16] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[06:16] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[06:16] <eroomde> any new tests will be over safety ranges
[06:16] <Lunar_Lander> in those tests they went up to Mach 3 IIRC
[06:16] <Lunar_Lander> of course
[06:16] <eroomde> so we can half the mass of the vehicle by getting rid of redundant batteries, flight computers, pyros, parachutes
[06:17] <eroomde> and replace all that mass with a solid rocket booster
[06:17] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[06:17] <eroomde> which should get us supersonic
[06:17] <eroomde> and i think most people know now that parachutes at mach 3 are no-go
[06:18] <eroomde> i think about mach 1.8 is the upper limit most people will deploy a supersonic drogue
[06:18] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[06:18] <eroomde> and we should be able to get there :)
[06:19] <eroomde> if totex or howyee were to suddenly make a 5kg balloon, that would change *everything* (thunderbolt clap in background)
[06:20] <eroomde> if one could get 20kg up to 30km, a whole world opens up
[06:21] <eroomde> once can dream
[06:21] <eroomde> one*
[06:23] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[06:23] <Lunar_Lander> the Japanese antarctic station once had 4500s
[06:23] <Lunar_Lander> special order maybe
[06:23] <eroomde> :o
[06:23] <eroomde> i doubt we could get the quantities to make it worth it
[06:23] <eroomde> for them
[06:25] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[06:25] <Darkside> good god that'd be a huge balloon
[06:26] <Darkside> i wonder how big it'd be on the ground
[06:26] <eroomde> about (4.5/2)^(3/2) the radius of a 2kg one
[06:28] <eroomde> so burst diameters of about 20+m
[06:29] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[06:29] <Lunar_Lander> does anybody know how to pay Hwoyee? mastercard or so?
[06:29] <Darkside> eroomde: wanna modify the CUSF burst predictor so it lets me put in burst altitude >40km?
[06:29] <Darkside> :P
[06:29] <eroomde> we get ours from steve
[06:29] <Lunar_Lander> yeah I know
[06:29] <Lunar_Lander> but he must pay them
[06:29] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[06:29] <eroomde> Darkside: i'll pull my finger out and do this new predictor
[06:29] <Darkside> heh
[06:30] <eroomde> i'm not sure if the data sets cover > 40km
[06:30] <Darkside> i just meant a hack so i can play with som enumbers for this weekends launch
[06:30] <Darkside> oh ok
[06:30] <eroomde> might just assume it's the same data as at 39.9km
[06:31] <Darkside> i'm just playing with the numbers for this weekend, seeing what we can do
[06:31] <Darkside> trying to balance maximum altitude with not landing in a shit locatio
[06:31] <Darkside> if i do 2m/s, it goes over the border
[06:31] <Darkside> 3m/s, its ok
[06:31] <eroomde> wow
[06:31] <Darkside> 2.5m/s is doable, and the burst calculator says it'll get to 40.6km or so
[06:32] <eroomde> google can suffer from injection attacks
[06:32] <Darkside> but ithink everything above 40km is just a guess
[06:32] <eroomde> at least on the client side
[06:32] <eroomde> useless pos
[06:32] <eroomde> http://google.com/#q=${
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[06:36] <griffonbot> Received email: Jonathan R. Trappe "[UKHAS] Manned radio ballooning: France & Italy"
[06:38] <daveake> So that's why the large helium cylinders were out of stock :p
[06:40] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[06:40] <Lunar_Lander> man that is cool
[06:40] <Lunar_Lander> and a little scary also
[06:40] <Lunar_Lander> :P
[06:40] <Lunar_Lander> his website: http://www.clusterballoon.com/
[06:40] <Lunar_Lander> he has flown like that in mexico already
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[06:42] <Lunar_Lander> morning jcoxon
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[06:43] <jcoxon> morning Lunar_Lander
[06:44] <Lunar_Lander> morning nosebleedKT
[06:44] <Lunar_Lander> how are you both?
[06:45] <jcoxon> Lunar_Lander, well thanks - day off
[06:46] <Lunar_Lander> that sounds good
[06:46] <eroomde> jcoxon: lucky thing
[06:49] <nosebleedKT> Hello
[06:49] <jcoxon> eroomde, its cause i've already worked 60hrs this week :-p
[06:50] <eroomde> ouch ok
[06:50] <eroomde> go to bed then
[06:50] <jcoxon> hehe
[06:50] <eroomde> infact, i must hop in the car
[06:50] <eroomde> have a good day all
[06:50] <jcoxon> cya eroomde
[06:53] <jcoxon> right time to get this damn solar charger working
[07:18] <Lunar_Lander> jcoxon: now checking at a Balsa shop for a parachute ring and radar reflector frame
[07:20] <UpuWork> Jonathan R. Trappe is a crazy fool but in an Ace Rimmer kinda way
[07:21] <UpuWork> that looks scary as hell
[07:21] <UpuWork> would loved to have been at the "airworthiness" inspection
[07:21] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[07:21] <Lunar_Lander> I actually thought about an alpine crossing like that
[07:22] <Lunar_Lander> with a slightly bigger chair, a ZP balloon and ballast sacks with electronic release
[07:23] <UpuWork> did he have a parachute on ?
[07:24] <Lunar_Lander> I think he wore one
[07:24] <Lunar_Lander> in my idea I would have had the chute to the chair, like we do on our balloons
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[07:38] <Lunar_Lander> UpuWork: this is his website http://www.clusterballoon.com/
[07:40] <Darkside> h my god he's insane
[07:40] <Darkside> well, either very brave, or insane
[07:40] <Darkside> but it gets hard to tell the difference
[07:40] <jcoxon> its very cool
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[07:43] <griffonbot> Received email: "Re: [UKHAS] Payload DOC"
[07:44] <niftylettuce> :)
[07:45] <griffonbot> Received email: "Re: [UKHAS] Payload DOC"
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[08:19] <Lunar_Lander> hi RocketBoy
[08:19] <griffonbot> Received email: David Akerman "Re: [UKHAS] Payload DOC"
[08:24] <Lunar_Lander> RocketBoy: Hwoyee only has balloons up to 2000, right?
[08:25] <RocketBoy> yep
[08:26] <Lunar_Lander> because we were discussing bigger balloon sizes before and then I wrote a little note to them but I doubt that the website passed it on
[08:26] <Lunar_Lander> I asked if they would make 3000 and 4500 on special order
[08:27] <RocketBoy> i guess they might do - but i'd bet it would cost a lot
[08:27] <Lunar_Lander> yea
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[08:36] <juxta> ping DanielRichman, Randomskk
[08:42] <Randomskk> juxta: what's up?
[08:42] <Randomskk> I have go to in like a minute
[08:42] <juxta> heya
[08:42] <juxta> oh, righto - was just wondering if there's any easy way to pull the last coords for a vehicle out of the tracker in a http request
[08:42] <juxta> if not I will write something
[08:43] <griffonbot> Received email: Steve Randall "[UKHAS] Manned radio ballooning: France & Italy"
[08:44] <Randomskk> yes
[08:44] <Randomskk> http://habitat.habhub.org/habitat/_design/habitat/_view/payload_telemetry?startkey=[%22PD4TA%22,%22latest%22]&descending=true&limit=1&include_docs=true
[08:44] <Randomskk> replace P4D4TA with your callsign
[08:44] <Randomskk> it's JSON, most languages can parse it
[08:44] <juxta> oh right, nice :)
[08:44] <Randomskk> k gotta run, be back on irc in an hour ish
[08:44] <juxta> okay, no probs
[08:44] <juxta> I'll look into java JSON parsing
[08:45] <juxta> oh, actually - I've just realised something. I'll likely have to rewrite something anyway. I'll talk to you about it when you're back.
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[09:00] <griffonbot> Received email: James Coxon "Re: [UKHAS] Payload DOC"
[09:00] Action: jcoxon twiddles his thumbs as his lipo charges via small solar panel
[09:00] <Lunar_Lander> yay
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[09:02] <Lunar_Lander> I'll be back later
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[09:03] <juxta> hey jcoxon, how are things?
[09:03] <jcoxon> hey juxta
[09:03] <jcoxon> not bad thanks
[09:03] <jcoxon> you?
[09:03] <jcoxon> how was travelling?
[09:03] <juxta> great thanks :)
[09:03] <juxta> asides from getting a little sick half way up a mountain
[09:04] <jcoxon> which mountain?
[09:04] <juxta> that was Mt Merbabu on Java
[09:04] <jcoxon> you survive?
[09:04] <juxta> seems so! :)
[09:04] <jcoxon> so balloon season about to start for you?
[09:05] <jcoxon> Darkside has been causing all sorts of trouble in your abscence
[09:05] <juxta> yes I think so, coming to the end of winter
[09:05] <juxta> haha
[09:05] <juxta> upsetting your records I hear
[09:05] <jcoxon> well
[09:05] <jcoxon> upsetting the US guys a bit
[09:05] <jcoxon> :-p
[09:05] <juxta> hehe
[09:05] <juxta> we're hoping to do the same again this weekend
[09:06] <jcoxon> any projects lined up?
[09:06] <juxta> Darkside's new flight computer is great - super tiny and light, does APRS too
[09:06] <jcoxon> he is quite clever
[09:06] <juxta> yeah - 1 lunch this Sunday, then we're planning a big weekend of launches in October - I think 4 balloons in one day
[09:06] <jcoxon> think i might grab the record for lightest payload though
[09:07] <juxta> hehe - how light is that?
[09:07] <jcoxon> currently i've got it (once assembled) at 26g
[09:07] <juxta> wow, that's excellent
[09:07] <jcoxon> though with quite a few sacrifices
[09:07] <juxta> how have you managed that?
[09:07] <jcoxon> different radio
[09:07] <jcoxon> and using solar cell + 85mA lipo
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[09:08] <jcoxon> whether it'll work is a different matter
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[09:08] <juxta> hehe
[09:08] <juxta> what sort of GPS module?
[09:08] <jcoxon> fsa03
[09:08] <juxta> I like those
[09:08] <juxta> everyone else seems to hate them
[09:09] <jcoxon> yeah once i solder it up i'll glue the antenna
[09:09] <jcoxon> thats the only issue really
[09:09] <juxta> yeah I do the same
[09:09] <jcoxon> the problem is that its hard to diagnose why they break
[09:10] <juxta> dropping it seems to do the trick, just ask Darkside ;)
[09:11] <juxta> just a moment, I'm going to go move the car (including carputer) somewhere it can see the sky
[09:16] <juxta> jcoxon, will I need a new build of dl-fldigi with the recent changes?
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[09:19] <griffonbot> Received email: "Re: [UKHAS] Payload DOC"
[09:19] <jcoxon> juxta, well
[09:19] <jcoxon> we are going to to a big release
[09:19] <jcoxon> once we finish habitat intergration
[09:20] <juxta> but for now recent builds should still work okay?
[09:20] <jcoxon> yeah
[09:20] <juxta> my 3G router is complkaining that my SIM has a PIN, grr
[09:20] <jcoxon> there is some server hackery going on
[09:21] <juxta> I imagined that might be the case :)
[09:22] <WillDuckworth> hey jcoxon - how's the new radio going?
[09:22] <jcoxon> WillDuckworth, i've got hellschreiber working
[09:22] <jcoxon> which is cool
[09:23] <jcoxon> need to switch to 328 from 168 to get a bit more ram for CW as well
[09:23] <WillDuckworth> good stuff
[09:23] <WillDuckworth> pro mino arduino?
[09:23] <jcoxon> RTTY isn't going to happen i don't think
[09:23] <jcoxon> WillDuckworth, yeah
[09:23] <juxta> what sort of radio module are you using jcoxon?
[09:23] <WillDuckworth> i like them, quite robust too
[09:24] <jcoxon> RF22
[09:24] <jcoxon> juxta, they are quite high level chips - do fast low power tx
[09:24] <griffonbot> Received email: James Coxon "Re: [UKHAS] Payload DOC"
[09:24] <griffonbot> Received email: David Akerman "Re: [UKHAS] Payload DOC"
[09:25] <jcoxon> too fast for balloons
[09:25] <jcoxon> so i'm making the radio do a unmodulated carrier and then turning it on and off
[09:25] daveake (~daveake@daveake.plus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[09:25] <daveake> grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
[09:26] <juxta> ah, righto
[09:26] <jcoxon> daveake, try deleting your dl-fldigi config files
[09:26] <jcoxon> i suspect thats where the problem is
[09:26] <jcoxon> and everytime it loads that file it gets upset
[09:26] <daveake> OK, just a mo ...
[09:26] <juxta> what sort of data rate do you get on Hell?
[09:27] <daveake> Where are those? Nothing in the program folder.
[09:27] <daveake> Registry?
[09:27] <jcoxon> Windows 7 - go to C:\Users\{your_Windows_login} and delete 'dl-fldigi.files' and also 'NBEMS.files'
[09:27] <juxta> daveake, in your home directory
[09:27] <daveake> okey dokey
[09:27] <jcoxon> juxta, its 122.5baud
[09:28] <jcoxon> so 25wpm
[09:28] <juxta> oh excellent
[09:28] <jcoxon> but i've been playing with slow-hell as well
[09:28] <juxta> that's great
[09:29] <juxta> hmm. looks like the tracker isnt plotting chase cars (where position is reported by dl-fldigi)
[09:29] <jcoxon> juxta, with preparation i think i could pull off a whole flight of it
[09:29] <daveake> OK, it starts into the wizard now :-)
[09:30] <jcoxon> hooray
[09:30] <daveake> I kept the config files in case anyone wants them for debugging
[09:31] <daveake> Hopefully it'll hear the line-in now. If not I have a USB sound card thingy to try
[09:31] <jcoxon> usb sound cards are quite good
[09:31] <jcoxon> less noise i've found
[09:31] <jcoxon> laptops have notoriously bad soundcards
[09:31] <juxta> very cheap too
[09:31] <daveake> Yes, amazingly cheap
[09:31] <daveake> I'm not happy with DM at the CAA ... he got my application in time but hadn't even looked at it
[09:32] <jcoxon> daveake, he is busy over the summer
[09:32] <jcoxon> its all the air shows
[09:32] <daveake> Mrs Dave called him while I was out collecting the helium. "Oh", he said, "might be able to get it done for the following weekend instead". Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr
[09:32] <daveake> OK, understood
[09:33] <juxta> jcoxon, anything I should try for chase car position reporting?
[09:33] <griffonbot> Received email: "Re: [UKHAS] Payload DOC"
[09:33] <jcoxon> juxta, worth asing on #habhub
[09:33] <juxta> oh yeah
[09:33] <juxta> forgot about that channel :)
[09:34] <daveake> Following weekend I'm away on business. So he said he'd try to get it done in time for Sunday, so that's good of him.
[09:34] <jcoxon> juxta, hmmm chase certainly is appearing in view.php
[09:36] <juxta> took me quite some time to load that, hehe
[09:36] <griffonbot> Received email: James Coxon "Re: [UKHAS] Payload DOC"
[09:38] <griffonbot> Received email: David Akerman "Re: [UKHAS] Payload DOC"
[09:41] <daveake> juxta, jcoxon - thanks guys - laptop now works with dl-fldigi even with the internal sound device :)
[09:42] <daveake> Gives me another option for tracking/chasing - very handy as the laptop has built-in 3G and the netbook doesn't
[09:43] <Randomskk> juxta: back, did you have questions about the json?
[09:44] <Randomskk> at work so my responses may be intermittent
[09:44] <juxta> Randomskk, haven't looked at that yet :-)
[09:44] <Randomskk> or something about rewriting something? :P
[09:44] <juxta> was hoping to pull the chase car positions out of the tracker and plot them in our offline mapping software
[09:44] <Randomskk> last day at work woooo
[09:44] <Randomskk> oh I see
[09:44] <Randomskk> so uhm
[09:44] <juxta> but yes - chase cars :)
[09:44] <juxta> -> habhub
[09:44] <Randomskk> yea
[09:47] <griffonbot> Received email: "Re: [UKHAS] Payload DOC"
[10:07] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[10:07] <daveake> Woohoo, David Miller comes though :)
[10:08] <daveake> through*
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[10:36] <griffonbot> Received email: Josh Taylor "[UKHAS] October 1st/2nd Balloon Launch from EARS"
[10:45] <griffonbot> Received email: John Graham-Cumming "Re: [UKHAS] October 1st/2nd Balloon Launch from EARS"
[10:47] <nosebleedKT> my SMD pcb lols
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[10:48] <nosebleedKT> I got a question
[10:49] <nosebleedKT> i have 3 AA in series producing all together 4.5v
[10:49] <SpeedEvil> Congratulations!
[10:50] <nosebleedKT> can I put 1 AA in paraller with the 3AA-pack so I increase the other thing?
[10:50] <nosebleedKT> SpeedEvil lol
[10:51] <Randomskk> no
[10:51] <nosebleedKT> i have plenty of room on the board with the smd components now
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[10:51] <Randomskk> you could put another three in series in parallel
[10:51] <nosebleedKT> Randomskk: ok
[10:51] <Randomskk> but you couldn't put another one in parallel
[10:51] <SpeedEvil> nosebleedKT: No - you'd need another 3
[10:51] <nosebleedKT> yes
[10:51] <nosebleedKT> ok
[10:51] <nosebleedKT> smd rulez btw
[10:52] <nosebleedKT> but you need many many vias
[10:52] <daveake> You can only parallel batteries of the same voltage. So the same count, same type, and all fresh.
[10:53] <daveake> Looking for advice from those that have flown a few times ... I'm looking at this prediction for Saturday - http://habhub.org/predict/#!/uuid=f7e22aa399908267ed1b63136428469c52a3f10e and this for Sunday - http://habhub.org/predict/#!/uuid=adc6749609498efd5860d6dc484a75fb06d10480. Is the Saturday one a bit far (it will take about the same time to drive as for the flight itslef)
[10:54] <jonsowman> wow that's a massive change
[10:54] <daveake> I know. I don't happen to believe it either, but what do I know? :)
[10:55] <jonsowman> let me clear the cache and run them again
[10:55] <daveake> Google weather doesn't show a big change in wind direction
[10:55] <jonsowman> ground level wind is irrelevant really
[10:56] <daveake> Understood
[10:56] <jonsowman> to the flight path anyway
[10:56] <daveake> :)
[10:56] <jonsowman> much higher than 12mph and filling becomes really annoying
[10:56] <jonsowman> okay so I've re-run them and they've changed a bit
[10:57] <daveake> Might be able to do that indoors ... the launch site is next to the village hall, and the person that does the hiring of the hall lives next door
[10:57] <jonsowman> that'd be helpful
[10:57] <daveake> I'll go ask this afternoon
[10:57] <jonsowman> be careful that it's very well ventilated
[10:57] <jonsowman> and that the envelope doesn't touch any sharp stuff as you've moving it out onto the field
[10:57] <daveake> Yep
[10:58] <daveake> I'll go do a recce :)
[10:58] <daveake> The sunday flight prediction is much less distance, but the route is slower
[10:58] <jonsowman> it'd be very disappointing to be all ready for the launch and then burst the balloon on the doorframe :)
[10:58] <daveake> Indeed. I have spare balloons but not helium
[10:59] <jonsowman> wise
[10:59] <jonsowman> so the saturday one, luton airport concerns me a bit
[11:00] <daveake> yep
[11:00] <jonsowman> sunday is a bit safer wrt airports
[11:00] <daveake> Should be quite high near there, but point taken
[11:00] <jonsowman> but is getting very close to the coast
[11:00] <jonsowman> yeah you're right
[11:01] <daveake> Sunday I'd have more chance of getting there before it lands.
[11:01] <jonsowman> have you refreshed since I re-ran them btw?
[11:01] <daveake> F5 refresh yes
[11:01] <jonsowman> cool ok :) just checking
[11:01] <daveake> :)
[11:01] <jonsowman> you're launching at 7am?
[11:02] <daveake> Actually that was supposed to be 6am (5utc) but I forgot this time ....
[11:02] <jonsowman> ah well it won't make much difference
[11:02] <jonsowman> i'm still surprised how much it changes between sat & sun
[11:03] <jonsowman> so I think the changes after I cleared the cache and re-ran them were due to a new dataset just being published
[11:04] <jonsowman> we're on the 06z dataset now, I think the original links you posted were on 00z
[11:06] <daveake> brb - phone
[11:06] <jonsowman> i agree i think you've got a better chance on sunday
[11:06] <jonsowman> A34 down to soton then M27/A27 east
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[11:07] <daveake> Google said M4 west then south. Anyway I'll look at what can keep me closeish to the payload so I can decode en route.
[11:08] <daveake> So, I was wondering, when does the wind data get updated? Is it regular?
[11:10] <jonsowman> datasets are generated at 00, 06, 12, 18 every day
[11:10] <daveake> Ah, TVM
[11:10] <jonsowman> and each is published around 5 hours after
[11:10] <jonsowman> so 06z is published around 11am
[11:11] <daveake> So now I know when it's worth re-checking the prediction :)
[11:12] Action: SpeedEvil wonders about http://api.yr.no/weatherapi/gribfiles/1.0/documentation
[11:14] <SpeedEvil> What forms are the NASA files in - might the above also be suitable?
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[11:15] <TimZaman> ntx2 footprint, anyone?
[11:15] <jonsowman> the noaa ones are in GFS format
[11:15] <jonsowman> but the old CUSF predictor uses GRIBs
[11:16] <Randomskk> and in both cases GFS or GRIB files are converted to CSV for the predictor binary
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[11:30] <daveake> jonsowman Hmmm ... Sunday prediction has changed now. Getting quite close to the coast!
[11:32] <jonsowman> daveake: yeah, it is rather
[11:32] <jonsowman> how soon do you have to make the decision?
[11:33] <jonsowman> I assume you've got a NOTAM covering either date?
[11:33] <daveake> Yes
[11:33] <daveake> Actually covers tomorrow morning (5:45) through to 9:30am Sunday
[11:33] <jonsowman> cool
[11:33] <jonsowman> well you could wait for the 12z dataset at about 5pm
[11:34] <jonsowman> depends if you can afford to put off the decision for another 6 odd hours really
[11:34] <daveake> Yes
[11:35] <daveake> I have helpers but they'll have to wait to hear :)
[11:35] <daveake> Saturday is showing a bit nearer to Ipswich than before. Mrs Dave comes from there so that's a bonus for her ;)
[11:36] <jonsowman> I've chased quite a few balloons out that way
[11:36] <jonsowman> thetford/stowmarket area
[11:36] <jonsowman> have you got a satnav? they're a massive help
[11:37] <Randomskk> ideally one that lets you plug in lat/lngs
[11:39] <daveake> Yes, did that last time. I set it up before we went for the same GPS format that we get from the payload
[11:42] <daveake> We were a bit late leaving, and the balloon was down by the time we got to our aim point ( a hill near the predicted landing spot). We lost the signal on the way. When we got there, tjere was no signal even with the yagi. So we got the last position and put that into the sat nav. Then on the way I heard the briefest of warbles via the magmount. So we stopped and used the yagi, got a new position and headed there. Last bit was a bit of DF-ing
[11:43] <Randomskk> nice :D
[11:43] <Randomskk> yea for nova19 we ended up driving around the sodding country until it got dark trying to DF
[11:44] <jonsowman> sounds very similar to a couple I've done
[11:44] <Randomskk> eventually found it up a tree
[11:44] <Randomskk> god that was the worst chase
[11:44] <jonsowman> haha wasn't it
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[11:45] <daveake> Oh yes, when we got there, there were trees everywhere. It was the edge of a forest and looking up I was convinced the payload had to be up the top somewhere. If so there was no chance - these were sodding high trees. When DFing I aimed the yagi up and got a better signal! Fortunately though it got to the ground, with the fall broken by a tree (you can see that in the video)
[11:46] <Randomskk> lucky
[11:46] <daveake> oh yus. I shuddered when I looked at the landing spot in google sat view :)
[11:47] <jonsowman> bbl
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[11:56] <daveake> This is where it landed - 51.616738, -0.992739. It came in from the west over that open area, landing in someone's back garden - the only clearing in that part of the forest.
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[11:56] <Randomskk> so lucky
[11:57] <daveake> I know! I was just thinking "So close yet so far" all the way till we saw the thing.
[11:57] <daveake> I think I had more ups and downs that day than the payload did :p
[11:57] <Randomskk> hehe
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[12:17] Action: nosebleedKT loves vias
[12:18] <Randomskk> you should ideally design your board so all your parts and connections are on the top and the only vias are to the ground plane that takes up the entire bottom
[12:19] <nosebleedKT> i cant do this !
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[12:19] <nosebleedKT> I almost finished the new board !
[12:20] <griffonbot> Received email: Anthony Stirk "Re: [UKHAS] Manned radio ballooning: France & Italy"
[12:20] <Randomskk> I guess you'll probably be okay.
[12:21] <nosebleedKT> :p
[12:21] <BrainDamage> can I see the mailing list archives without being subscribed somewhere?
[12:22] <UpuWork> BrainDamage http://groups.google.com/group/ukhas?lnk=srg
[12:22] <BrainDamage> thanks
[12:23] <UpuWork> http://groups.google.com/group/ukhas/topics
[12:23] <UpuWork> there
[12:24] <nosebleedKT> lol, there is room for 3-4 sensors
[12:28] <nosebleedKT> Randomskk: http://imagebin.org/172705
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[12:31] <Randomskk> probably fine
[12:48] <griffonbot> Received email: Josh Taylor "Re: [UKHAS] October 1st/2nd Balloon Launch from EARS"
[12:55] <Upu> interesting
[12:55] <Laurenceb_> how do i reduce a gif to 1bit color with gimp?
[12:55] <Randomskk> imagemagick might be easier
[12:55] <Laurenceb_> heh
[12:56] <Upu> Inventek will remove the alititude limit on GPS firmware if request, they have no idea what will happen when it exceeds the current altitude max of 42k
[12:56] <Upu> and they are looking at a HA version of ISM480F1-C4
[12:56] <Upu> http://www.motionmicro.com/products/ISM480F1%252dC4.1.html
[12:56] <Upu> looks good for pico launches
[12:57] <Upu> integrated patch
[12:57] <WillDuckworth> does look good
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[12:58] <Upu> whats 7 US ounces in grammes ?
[12:59] <BrainDamage> 198,44666 g
[12:59] <Upu> that can't be right
[12:59] <Upu> its 16mm x 12 mm
[13:00] <Upu> whats it made from depleted uranium
[13:00] <daveake> lol
[13:00] <BrainDamage> the alternative in my converter would be troy ounces, but that'd be even heavier
[13:01] <Upu> 16mm x 12 mm x 7 mm
[13:01] <BrainDamage> with troy ounces, it's 217,72434 g
[13:01] <Upu> cannot weigh as much as a block of Cadbury's finest
[13:01] <fsphil> google's saying 198.44.. grams too
[13:01] <NigeyS> There are 16 ounces in an avoirdupois pound. In 1958 the US (United States) and countries of the Commonwealth of Nations defined the mass of the international pound to be 0.453 592 37 kilograms
[13:01] <NigeyS> :|
[13:01] <Upu> going to be 0.7
[13:01] <Upu> 19 grams
[13:02] <fsphil> gotta love prehistoric measuring systems :)
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[13:02] <Zuph> fsphil: You guys came up with it!
[13:02] <Zuph> :-p
[13:02] <BrainDamage> fsphil: just use this handy chart (NOT!) for simple conversion! http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c8/English_length_units_graph.png
[13:03] <NigeyS> Zuph, nah he's irish they only invented Guiness ;)
[13:03] <BrainDamage> also, I love how a point not only has finite size, but it's also a length unit, not area
[13:03] <Zuph> hah
[13:04] <Zuph> Freshman engineering classes sucked. Had to learn calculus with problems that involved slugs per foot-second.
[13:04] Action: BrainDamage is glad to live in country that used metric since 200 or so years
[13:06] Action: SpeedEvil examines Zuphs nits.
[13:06] <Zuph> Many thanks.
[13:06] <SpeedEvil> There are so many wacky imperial units.
[13:07] <SpeedEvil> Though practically - the
[13:07] <SpeedEvil> photometric and radiometric units are almost as bad.
[13:07] <SpeedEvil> I mean - sure - for good reasons - but...
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[13:08] <BrainDamage> and there's pressure units that are used all over despite SI :/
[13:08] Action: SpeedEvil wonders what you'd measure in hogsheads per steradian.
[13:08] <griffonbot> Received email: Steve Randall "Re: [UKHAS] October 1st/2nd Balloon Launch from EARS"
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[13:08] <BrainDamage> I still see stuff measured in CPM, or pounds per square _centimeter_
[13:09] Action: SpeedEvil sighs.
[13:09] <SpeedEvil> Working out solar panel output is hard - if you want to do what-ifs.
[13:09] <Randomskk> also fun is prefix stacking
[13:09] <SpeedEvil> I really need 1 minute or so data over the last year at my location
[13:10] <Randomskk> kilomicrolumens or something
[13:10] <SpeedEvil> To answer questions like 'if I add a battery to my grid-tie inverter/solar system - what happens'
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[13:41] <NigeyS> why is google an orange today? :|
[13:43] <Randomskk> suck it and see
[13:45] <NigeyS> hah good 1 :p
[13:46] <NigeyS> i just had to write a 14 step howto on how to move a web site from old server to new server *sigh*
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[14:12] <Dan-K2VOL> afternoon
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[14:16] <Zuph> Dan-K2VOL: Wrong corner of the continuous 4 day time cube.
[14:16] <Darkside> hmm theres a launch tomorrow, right?
[14:16] <Darkside> daveake:
[14:16] <Dan-K2VOL> ha
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[14:23] <daveake> oh, been away ... yes, hopefully. Not any attempt on your record though!
[14:24] <Darkside> daveake: want me to put stuff on spacenear.us?
[14:24] <Darkside> just tell me the title and subtitle you want
[14:24] <daveake> Sure, and could you delete the data for me too please?
[14:25] <daveake> Title: "CLOUD2 Launch"
[14:26] <daveake> Sub: "Launch on 2001-Sep-17 0600BST select CLOUD2 then autoconfigure (50 baud 425Hz shift 7N2 434.650MHz)
[14:26] <daveake> *2011 even
[14:26] <Darkside> ok gimme a sec
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[14:26] <daveake> I'll confirm later - waiting for the wind data update.
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[14:27] <Upu> 0600 am ?
[14:27] <Upu> impressive
[14:27] <daveake> Sunrise shots, hopefully
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[14:28] <daveake> Problem? ;)
[14:28] <Upu> none at all might even be able to listen
[14:28] <daveake> Cooool
[14:28] <Darkside> ok title is done
[14:28] <daveake> TVM :)
[14:28] <Upu> On hols tommorrow to lakes
[14:28] <Upu> I won't dismantle radio in that case
[14:28] <Darkside> will wipe the data off now, but itl have to be done closer to the time too
[14:29] <daveake> At the mement there's a big difference between predictions for saturday and sunday
[14:29] <Darkside> daveake: i'm most likely to be awake when you launch, so bug me
[14:29] <daveake> Saturday: http://habhub.org/predict/#!/uuid=f7e22aa399908267ed1b63136428469c52a3f10e
[14:29] <fsphil> 0600 BST?
[14:29] <fsphil> are you mad man? :)
[14:29] <daveake> lol
[14:29] <daveake> Probably
[14:29] <daveake> Can make it later if you want :)
[14:29] <NigeyS> any perl wizzards in here?
[14:29] <fsphil> bah I'll probably be up, have a go :)
[14:29] <daveake> Excellent
[14:29] <Upu> I'll be up
[14:29] <Upu> dog and sick wife
[14:29] <daveake> :(
[14:29] <Darkside> i'll certainly be up :-)
[14:29] <daveake> Sick wife here too
[14:29] <fsphil> oi noi
[14:29] <Darkside> as thts like 2om here
[14:30] <Upu> she's only got cold
[14:30] <Darkside> 2pm*
[14:30] <Upu> thought they say men have man flu
[14:30] <daveake> Sunday: http://habhub.org/predict/#!/uuid=054b5f2e45ec5591b674c796573d5df9c5754fec. Bit close to that wet stuff.
[14:30] <Upu> anyway type lots so this goes off the screen
[14:30] <fsphil> So
[14:30] <fsphil> I'll
[14:30] <fsphil> try
[14:30] <fsphil> and
[14:30] <fsphil> get up
[14:30] <fsphil> early
[14:30] <fsphil> (this working?) :)
[14:30] <daveake> T
[14:30] <daveake> V
[14:30] <daveake> M
[14:31] <fsphil> 50 baud, should work from here
[14:31] <Upu> ah 50 baud
[14:31] <Upu> 50 baud is only baud
[14:31] <fsphil> sooo slooow :)
[14:31] <Upu> just fine thanks
[14:31] <fsphil> you could almost decode that by ear :)
[14:32] <fsphil> that's a heck of a flight path
[14:32] <daveake> lol
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[14:32] <daveake> Yes, that's what I thought.
[14:32] <daveake> I favoured Sunday till that changed a bit and got rather close to that blue stuff on the map
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[14:35] <daveake> fsphil I think I'll need to start the chase before I let go of the balloon :p
[14:35] <fsphil> send someone ahead maybe :)
[14:35] <fsphil> is it just you chasing?
[14:36] <daveake> Well, I'll have a friend or 2 but I only have the 1 receiver.
[14:37] <fsphil> yea, that is annoying
[14:37] <daveake> If Mrs Dave is feeling up to it she can hold the balloon for a while leaving the rest of us to set off :)
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[14:38] <fsphil> two and a half hours to travel 166 km
[14:38] <daveake> yep
[14:38] <fsphil> it's not too bad
[14:39] <daveake> M4 --> M25 --> M11 or A12 depending where it's headed
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[15:07] <daveake> Just trying to get my chase car set up so it shows on the map. GPS connected and working (position shown in the dl-fldigi dl client / gps page. Have set the "identity"box to "chase-daveake". It's uploading the payload data and the receiver is listed, but there's no car. What have I missed?
[15:10] <Dan-K2VOL> upu or jcoxon around?
[15:10] <daveake> ping Upu UpuWork
[15:11] <jcoxon> hi Dan-K2VOL
[15:11] <Dan-K2VOL> thanks daveake
[15:11] <daveake> James, I'm trying to get my chase car to show on the map as a car so everyone knows where I am during the chase this weekend
[15:12] <daveake> GPS is setup and working
[15:12] <Dan-K2VOL> james, I was just looking at a site called http://join.me for screen sharing here at work, it's worth considering adding that in addition to a cam stream of the presenter
[15:12] <daveake> I've set the "identity" to "chase-daveake" ... is that right? Something else to do?
[15:13] <jcoxon> daveake, ummmm Randomskk was fixing this earlier
[15:13] <Dan-K2VOL> it's a very nice simple free screen sharing system, that has good receiver clients for android and ios too
[15:13] <jcoxon> not sure what the conclusion is
[15:13] <daveake> Ah, ok, I'll big him when he's around
[15:13] <daveake> bug*
[15:13] <Dan-K2VOL> (jcoxon for the ukhas conference)
[15:13] <jcoxon> Dan-K2VOL, interesting
[15:14] <jcoxon> i'm not sure how far Upu has got with that
[15:14] <jcoxon> hes the one looking into it
[15:14] <Dan-K2VOL> would give a good hi-res view of presenter slides
[15:14] <Dan-K2VOL> oh ok, I'll catch upu
[15:14] <UpuWork> hi
[15:15] <UpuWork> 1 sec just reading back
[15:15] <UpuWork> hey Dan-K2VOL
[15:16] <UpuWork> how long is your video ?
[15:18] <jcoxon> picoatlas 3 is alive!
[15:18] <jcoxon> hellschreiber telem
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[15:26] <NigeyS> nice 1 jcoxon :) PicoChu-2 is semi alive to !
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[15:32] <number10> what time are you launching daveake
[15:33] <daveake> 6am
[15:34] <daveake> I'll confirm later on when I've checked the prediction after it's had the next wind data update
[15:34] <number10> expected landing about 10?
[15:34] <daveake> 9:30 or so
[15:35] <daveake> Er
[15:35] <daveake> 8:30 or so
[15:35] <daveake> This is the full-fat payload to approx 30km
[15:36] <number10> If its landing about 830 I maybe able to pop out and try and help locate - but have to go out later (will get in trouble with Mrs here if not)
[15:36] <daveake> That would be great. You have portable tracking kit?
[15:37] <number10> I have a PC - but batterys wont last long - not sure If I have got internet stick installed on it - I'll check - alllogh its vodaphone and patchy round here
[15:38] <number10> have magmount and scanner
[15:38] <daveake> Cool
[15:38] <daveake> It's just that even with my lead foot, the payload may get there before I do!
[15:39] <number10> problem is a mobile internet connection I think
[15:39] <daveake> Even if you track from home, that would likely keep getting a signal for longer than those further away (possibly including me)
[15:47] <number10> i'll try and get up before 7
[15:47] <daveake> Cheers :)
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[16:01] <NigeyS> A satellite hurtling towards Earth could crash almost anywhere in the populated world, Nasa says, although the risk to the public is low.
[16:01] <NigeyS> mmmk
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[16:08] <daveake> These hwoyee balloons with their fat necks .... my filler is 40mm external diameter so the latex needs folding over and will need a fair bit duct-taping down to stop it leaking or falling off. Has anyone done this and found it OK? I have some 68mm drainpipe but the balloon (1000g) is a bit of a tight fit over that.
[16:09] <NigeyS> i'd ask steve if poss dave, or robbie
[16:10] <NigeyS> unless jcoxon has used them ..
[16:11] <daveake> ping RocketBoy
[16:11] <RocketBoy> yo yo
[16:11] <daveake> Promise not to disappear every 5 seconds? ;)
[16:11] <NigeyS> lol
[16:12] <RocketBoy> I'd continue to use the 38mm tube if I were you
[16:12] <daveake> Wondering what you'd recommend as a filler for a 1000g hwoyee
[16:12] <daveake> Cool, that's what I was thinking after I tried the 68mm
[16:12] <RocketBoy> just fold it over and cable tie
[16:12] <daveake> check
[16:12] <RocketBoy> its easier that way
[16:13] <daveake> Same for the 1600?
[16:13] <RocketBoy> yep
[16:13] <daveake> Cheers
[16:13] <RocketBoy> in fact any of the range
[16:13] <RocketBoy> like on the ukhas website
[16:13] <daveake> I just asumed that the folding would end up leaking
[16:14] <RocketBoy> http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/guides:sealing_the_balloon?s[]=neck8&s[]=jpg
[16:14] <RocketBoy> na - cable-tie and tape
[16:15] <RocketBoy> actually there is virtually no pressure - so leaking is normally not a problem
[16:15] <daveake> Excellent, thanks!
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[16:19] Action: RocketBoy hands RocketBoy a stable connection
[16:19] <daveake> smea is no longer known as RocketBoy
[16:20] <smea> ^^'
[16:20] <NigeyS> haha
[16:24] Nick change: SamSIlver_ -> smeal
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[16:32] <Randomskk> woooooo finished work for the summer!
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[16:35] <smeal> keep it to yourself lest we get green Randomskk
[16:35] <Randomskk> woooooooooooo freeeeeeedom
[16:35] <Randomskk> though I am back to uni in a week's time
[16:35] <smeal> okay Randomskk tell us how long you got off
[16:35] <Randomskk> where it's a solid grind of super hard work
[16:35] <smeal> enjoy
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[16:56] <smeal> will the real RocketBoy Please Stand Up!!
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[17:10] <griffonbot> Received email: daveake "[UKHAS] CLOUD2 Launch Saturday 17th September"
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[17:13] <griffonbot> Received email: John Graham-Cumming "Re: [UKHAS] CLOUD2 Launch Saturday 17th September"
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[17:14] <griffonbot> Received email: Matt "RE: [UKHAS] CLOUD2 Launch Saturday 17th September"
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[17:20] <daveake> Just checking the backup tracker for my flight ... it's received a text message ...
[17:20] <daveake> ... "You have still not claimed the compensation you are due for the accident you had. "
[17:21] <SpeedEvil> :)
[17:23] <smeal> I won the bill gates lotto $13,000,000.00
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[17:24] <smeal> and a few guys from Nigeria want me help the invest
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[17:24] <Hiena> ' evening!
[17:24] <smeal> them*
[17:25] <daveake> Don't send them anything, smeal. I sorted them out earlier with my $10M inheritance.
[17:27] <Hiena> Oh, the Nigerian astronaut sounded legit to me. Poor guy... ;)
[17:28] <Hiena> http://www.collectspace.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/002273.html
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[17:34] <smeal> lol
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[17:37] <smeal> Mr 26g welcome
[17:38] <griffonbot> Received email: David Akerman "Re: [UKHAS] CLOUD2 Launch Saturday 17th September"
[17:41] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
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[17:53] <gb73d> http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=uk-researchers-to-test-artificial-volcano-for-geoengineering-the-climate
[17:53] <gb73d> uses balloon in Norfolk
[17:53] <gb73d> n e info?
[17:54] <SpeedEvil> It should be NOTAMd I'd have thought
[17:55] <gb73d> At an airfield in Norfolk, England, that is no longer in use, a helium blimp will hoist a regular pressure-washer hose one kilometer off the ground.
[17:55] <gb73d> yes i guess it wioll be NOTAM
[17:55] <Randomskk> hahaha what
[17:56] <Randomskk> one of my professors is involved in that
[17:56] <Randomskk> they came to use for tips about HAB
[17:56] <Randomskk> But Hugh Hunt, a SPICE engineer at the University of Cambridge, said the balloon-and-hose design appears to be the most cost-effective option.
[17:56] <Randomskk> this dude
[17:56] <jonsowman> talking of which, Hugh Hunt was on Fifth Gear a while ago
[17:56] <gb73d> tests in October
[17:56] <Randomskk> he sure does get around
[17:57] <jonsowman> think it was an old episode but I didn't know he'd done that
[17:57] <gb73d> wow
[17:58] <Randomskk> he's super cool
[18:02] <gb73d> will be interesting expect it will be on the news in October
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[18:05] <smeal> 1 hour to go till daveake gets his new updates to run new flight predictions.
[18:05] <smeal> blue stuff or trees?
[18:06] <smeal> http://www.sanslogic.co.uk/hab/notree.png
[18:07] <smeal> afk
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[18:11] <eroomde> CUSF had a brief fling with this SPICE project
[18:12] <eroomde> with hugh hunt
[18:12] <eroomde> but it's not really our bag
[18:16] <eroomde> Randomskk: I just had a food moment
[18:17] <gb73d> that balloon will be at 3280 ft
[18:18] <daveake> smeal ... that is the question ... blue or green, green or blue ....
[18:19] <daveake> I'm about the print that out and stick on the payload :)
[18:23] <Randomskk> eroomde: oh?
[18:25] <eroomde> yes
[18:25] <eroomde> thank you for biting
[18:25] <eroomde> i went to get like a skirt steak or something from my happy farm butcher man
[18:25] <eroomde> just for dinner for one
[18:25] <eroomde> and he said, as he often does 'well yes i can give you that, ooooooooooooor.....'
[18:26] <Randomskk> so jealous. I needed to get food for dinner for one tonight, so had to walk to sainsburys local and now I'm having some crappy kiev.
[18:26] <Randomskk> that is what you want him to be saying
[18:26] <eroomde> and then put an 8-week aged cut of ribeye on the counter
[18:26] <Randomskk> were you like "yesillhavethatrightnow"
[18:26] <eroomde> which he just sold most of to a very swanky local restaurant
[18:26] <eroomde> and had a 2 inch thick bit left
[18:26] <eroomde> and golly gosh
[18:26] <Randomskk> ;o
[18:26] <eroomde> it was something else
[18:26] <Randomskk> when steak's really good it's so, so nice
[18:27] <eroomde> it was exceptional
[18:27] <eroomde> the fat was basically peach pink
[18:27] <eroomde> it was so well aged
[18:27] <eroomde> and it just melted
[18:27] <Randomskk> it's the melty that's so amazing
[18:27] <Randomskk> the kobe beef in japan was stupid crazy like that
[18:27] <eroomde> blasted in a hot skillet with a little oil and then quite a bit of butter after the first minute
[18:27] <Randomskk> it just melted into a tastegasm
[18:27] <Randomskk> we all had o faces on
[18:28] <eroomde> so it had almost a bark, and then was just pink and tender inside and fell to pieces. 8 weeks of hanging is a panacea
[18:28] <eroomde> i had it with a simple tomato and shallot salad and some mozzarella
[18:28] <eroomde> this is a happy evening
[18:28] <Randomskk> very nice
[18:28] <eroomde> i think i might have to get some more of that tbh
[18:28] <Randomskk> enjoy your bank balance :P
[18:29] <Randomskk> my packaged kiev is in the oven :(
[18:29] <eroomde> well, he's not too bad
[18:29] <eroomde> but yes, still quite a lot
[18:29] <eroomde> it was 7 quid for the steak but it could probably feed two normal people
[18:29] <eroomde> it's not nearly as bad as fillet, say
[18:29] <Randomskk> yea
[18:29] <smeal> do tell what was the dressing on the salad
[18:29] <smeal> eroomde:
[18:29] <Randomskk> meh, I'll happily pay like £7 for a steak for me now and again
[18:29] <Randomskk> cheaper than eating out still
[18:30] <smeal> the dressing
[18:30] <eroomde> EV olive oil, wine wine vinegar, bit of dijon mustard, salt, pepper
[18:30] <eroomde> shaken into an emulsion
[18:30] <gb73d> its usually pizza and lager for fri here
[18:30] <smeal> EV olive oil ??
[18:30] <eroomde> gb73d: i just got saucepans for my new house so felt like cooking something
[18:30] <Randomskk> xxxtra-virgin
[18:30] <eroomde> in the event i didn't use any of them
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[18:30] <eroomde> the meat seemed nice enough that i didn't want to make an effort with saucepan things
[18:31] <smeal> XXX you dirty old man you
[18:31] <gb73d> yes ero I got into cooking more in recent years, saves money , i make a good chinese shrimp curry
[18:31] <Randomskk> wine wine vinegar, ed? how much of that did you put in? :P
[18:31] <eroomde> i've been told by my housemate that downton abbey is going to be A Thing In This House
[18:31] <eroomde> and that it must be prefixed with a bbq
[18:31] <eroomde> regardless of the weather
[18:31] <eroomde> so i might get a nice thick beef rib from the same cow and bbq it
[18:32] Nick change: smeal -> SamSilver
[18:32] <gb73d> ive got authentic chinese curry paste that they use in takeaways
[18:32] <eroomde> that stuff is actually great isn't it
[18:32] <eroomde> i'm quite pro MSG too
[18:32] <eroomde> like, it's an entirely legitimate flavour enhancer, like salt
[18:32] <gb73d> :)
[18:32] Lunar_Lander (~Miranda@p54A07629.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #highaltitude.
[18:32] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[18:32] <Randomskk> definitely
[18:32] <eroomde> used judiciously it's grand
[18:32] <Randomskk> eroomde: I've got "cooking for geeks"
[18:33] <Randomskk> and it has an entire section on the fun chemistry
[18:33] <Lunar_Lander> hi eroomde Randomskk
[18:33] <eroomde> lol
[18:33] <Randomskk> it's amazing tbh
[18:33] <eroomde> Randomskk: my bible is Nose To Tail
[18:33] <Randomskk> "time and temperature: cooking's primary variables"
[18:33] <SamSilver> I will be spending most of my day on saturday getting all I need to make a close to authentic Argentinian espatada
[18:33] <gb73d> im getting into allspice in fruit juice its got areal hit
[18:33] <eroomde> gb73d: sounds interesting!
[18:33] <gb73d> and cinamon w cocoa and coffee it lowers blodd presasure
[18:34] <eroomde> allspice is usually something for, like, a seared duck breast or something for me
[18:34] <gb73d> and cayenne pepper on baked beans ins nice
[18:34] <Lunar_Lander> hi gb73d
[18:34] <eroomde> gb73d: try boston beans
[18:34] <Randomskk> it's all about smearing nandos v hot sauce liberally on anything
[18:34] <gb73d> Hi luna
[18:34] <Randomskk> sandwiches, fish fingers, occasionally steak, mixing into currys
[18:34] <Randomskk> doesn't work well in woks it turns out
[18:34] <Lunar_Lander> can anybody check the Hwoyee site if you also get a Bad Gateway error
[18:35] <eroomde> gb73d: boston beans are grand. they're beans and porky bits and some spices very very slow cooked
[18:35] <eroomde> usually some cured pork belly blasted in a skillet
[18:35] <eroomde> then into a casserole
[18:35] <eroomde> then chopped tomatoes
[18:35] <eroomde> then spices and molasses
[18:35] <eroomde> then beans
[18:35] <eroomde> and leave to slow cook for about 5 hours
[18:35] <eroomde> it's something else
[18:35] <SamSilver> Randomskk: where is Nandos from?\
[18:36] <Lunar_Lander> hi SamSilver
[18:36] <gb73d> i am fishatarian but i get the picture spicy beans yep
[18:36] <SamSilver> Hi Lunar_Lander
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[18:36] <Lunar_Lander> is the Hwoyee site down for you also?
[18:36] <eroomde> i made to to go with pulled pork - slow roasted pork shoulder which ahs been marinted for a couple of days with a dry rub of spices. it is the best way of eating pork i've ever had ever
[18:36] <eroomde> gb73d: I coped this
[18:36] <eroomde> http://helengraves.co.uk/2011/06/pulled-pork-boston-baked-beans-pickled-fennel/
[18:37] <eroomde> it's a religious experience
[18:37] <eroomde> so it
[18:37] <SamSilver> Lunar_Lander: I have watched a lot of your vids
[18:37] <eroomde> do*
[18:37] <gb73d> i also like paprika on anything w rice and tinned tomato
[18:37] <Lunar_Lander> cool, thanks SamSilver
[18:37] <Randomskk> SamSilver: technically portuguese I guess
[18:37] <gb73d> eg smoked fish
[18:37] <Randomskk> but really that's like asking where wagamama's is from
[18:37] <eroomde> Randomskk: check this out also http://helengraves.co.uk/2011/06/pulled-pork-boston-baked-beans-pickled-fennel/
[18:37] <SamSilver> yes with a hint of SA
[18:37] <eroomde> infact, you can come and visit ox
[18:38] <eroomde> i'll make it
[18:38] <eroomde> just bough a bbq with a lid so i can smoke it properly
[18:38] <SamSilver> Randomskk: south africa belive it or not
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[18:38] <Randomskk> SamSilver: the chain is, sure
[18:38] <Randomskk> eroomde: I've heard this is the best way of eating pork, http://goonswithspoons.com/Home_Baked_Char_Siu_Bao_(Hum_Bao)
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[18:38] <Randomskk> but tbh the pictures on your one look better
[18:39] <Randomskk> also "we wiped the plates clean with chunks of sourdough" heh
[18:39] <eroomde> Randomskk: my ex's family was originally from malaysia
[18:39] <eroomde> at a new years thing they made such an incredible spread, including that
[18:40] daveake (~daveake@daveake.plus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[18:40] <eroomde> i remember it very very well
[18:40] <Randomskk> was it as delicious as that page makes it out to be?
[18:40] <eroomde> oh yes
[18:40] <eroomde> SamSilver: new sourdough thing
[18:40] <Randomskk> shame I don't have an oven in cambridge really :(
[18:40] <eroomde> well, not new
[18:40] <eroomde> but i did it for the first time for me recently
[18:40] <eroomde> which is to make a nice round sourdough boule
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[18:41] <SamSilver> do tell
[18:41] <eroomde> chop the lid off, scoop the insides out
[18:41] <eroomde> spash the inside with balsamic vinegar
[18:41] <SamSilver> aahh a bunny chow
[18:41] <eroomde> then fill with salad niccoise
[18:41] <eroomde> and lead in the fridge for about 24 hrs
[18:41] Action: SpeedEvil is doing sourdough in the breadmaker ATM.
[18:42] <SamSilver> eroomde: do you squash it with weights?
[18:42] <SpeedEvil> Started it around midday, I'll probably knock it back around 1AM, and then put it on at around the next noon.
[18:42] <eroomde> SamSilver: http://d37xeixy3leayx.cloudfront.net/images/recipes/820/820_1_296.jpg
[18:42] <eroomde> yep
[18:42] <eroomde> it's street food in Nice and other bits of provence
[18:43] <SamSilver> I had sour for breakfast lunch and dinner today
[18:43] <SamSilver> dinner was the least impresive
[18:43] <SamSilver> baked beans, avocado, chicken rashers, and red wine
[18:43] <SpeedEvil> I was idly wondering what could be done with sourdough-sauce
[18:43] <eroomde> sounds like a food day tho :)
[18:44] <SpeedEvil> Take your normal cheese sauce recipie
[18:44] <SpeedEvil> But make it into sourdough, then cook while doing the normal stirry thing.
[18:44] <eroomde> i totally don't understand
[18:44] <SamSilver> I am lost
[18:45] <SpeedEvil> Flour and water - rather, not cheese sauce
[18:45] <SamSilver> where is the He?
[18:45] <SpeedEvil> Though of course you could add cheese.
[18:45] <SamSilver> how much duct-tape?
[18:46] <SamSilver> lol I kid
[18:47] <Randomskk> eroomde: the pulled pork sounds super tasty
[18:47] <eroomde> it is
[18:47] <Randomskk> reading recipies makes me hungry :P
[18:47] <eroomde> with a completely crap white bap and asda coleslaw
[18:47] <eroomde> it's something else
[18:47] <Randomskk> haha
[18:48] <Randomskk> oh man, do want delicious tasty meat in bap
[18:48] <daveake> Pulled pork in a bap. That's what you want.
[18:48] <eroomde> i think it would be the best way to top off a balloon launch
[18:49] <eroomde> let someone else do the chase
[18:49] <eroomde> just get there in the morning, get the bbq going
[18:49] <Randomskk> plus if we put it on to cook immediately at predicted launch time
[18:49] <Randomskk> it'd be just ready once the balloon is up!
[18:49] <eroomde> then get the helium
[18:50] jackclark (5200a53c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.82.0.165.60) joined #highaltitude.
[18:50] <natrium42> apt-get install helium
[18:50] <Dan-K2VOL> ha natrium42
[18:51] <daveake> BBQ plus a balloon launch. With hydrogen. It's a winning combination. :)
[18:51] <daveake> Evening jack :)
[18:51] <jackclark> Hi Dave
[18:51] <SamSilver> hi
[18:51] <daveake> You're 10 hours early ;)
[18:52] <jackclark> Testing :)
[18:52] <daveake> Just about ready here.
[18:52] <daveake> :)
[18:52] <SamSilver> doing battery test at http://aprs.fi/?call=zs5jnb-9&mt=roadmap&z=16&timerange=86400
[18:52] <SamSilver> will see how long my payload lasts
[18:53] <Lunar_Lander> xD daveake
[18:53] <Lunar_Lander> YAY
[18:53] <Lunar_Lander> Hwoyee site back up
[18:53] <eroomde> i just picked my nose having chopped a chilli from my chilli plant
[18:53] <SamSilver> daveake: time to run new prediction
[18:53] <eroomde> i don't understand how one doesn't unlearn this behavious
[18:54] <daveake> Not sure I dare ... ;)
[18:54] <gb73d> wish I had been here for that record breaker from the Ozzy bloke
[18:54] <natrium42> thanks for telling us, eroomde :D
[18:54] <eroomde> it's serious
[18:54] <gb73d> read about it on Southgate ARS
[18:54] <SamSilver> eroomde: I feel your pain I pickeled some haderneros and the went to the loo
[18:54] <SamSilver> soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo hooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooot
[18:55] <daveake> Wow, that prediction is different
[18:55] <Randomskk> SamSilver: oh man
[18:55] <Randomskk> yea
[18:55] <Randomskk> I was slicing up a ton of red thai chilli peppers for a stir fry
[18:55] <gb73d> well u better observve basic hygiene esp w meat
[18:55] <Randomskk> and like, they were all over my hands
[18:55] <SamSilver> I had tears in my ears
[18:56] <SamSilver> Randomskk: and ...
[18:56] <Randomskk> :'(
[18:56] <number10> hope you was not still preparing food eroomde
[18:56] <eroomde> gb73d: i play chicken chicken quite often
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[18:56] <eroomde> i think that needs a clearer name
[18:56] <eroomde> salmonella chicken
[18:56] <Randomskk> it's a great name
[18:57] <eroomde> whereby i mix raw and cooked and all sorts
[18:57] <eroomde> just to experiment you see
[18:57] <SamSilver> I mate got frisky with his blonde after helping me with a Madras Beef Curry
[18:57] <eroomde> never given myself food poisening that way
[18:57] <eroomde> yet
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[18:57] <Lunar_Lander> hi RocketBoy
[18:57] <SamSilver> a mate*
[18:57] <Randomskk> I bet she loved that.
[18:57] <Randomskk> I found out the other day that mucous membranes and red thai chilli peppers are like, the worst combination
[18:57] <Randomskk> except if the membrane in question is your mouth I guess
[18:58] <Randomskk> then it's somehow delicious
[18:58] <SamSilver> Randomskk: not soo much she was in the bath with the hand shower
[18:58] <Randomskk> yea I bet
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[18:59] <SamSilver> have you seen how folk who wear contact lenses can cut onions wot fairithout crying n
[18:59] <Randomskk> uhm
[18:59] <SamSilver> with out crying
[18:59] <Randomskk> lucky them
[18:59] <Randomskk> sometimes I can and it's fine
[18:59] <Randomskk> other times it all ends in tears
[18:59] <Randomskk> I'm not sure why
[19:00] <Randomskk> some times it's fine for half of it and then suddenly I can't see anything
[19:00] <Randomskk> stupid delicious onions
[19:00] <Lunar_Lander> euroonions
[19:00] <SamSilver> i am growning a crop of red onions
[19:00] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[19:01] <eroomde> tripping over
[19:01] <eroomde> like a boss
[19:01] <eroomde> http://i.imgur.com/oB93R.gif.jpg
[19:02] <SamSilver> daveake: I look forward to your launch
[19:02] <Lunar_Lander> I once had potatoes in the garden
[19:02] <Lunar_Lander> and today I saw a manual on how to grow peanuts
[19:02] <Dan-K2VOL> nice eroomde, I needed that
[19:02] <SamSilver> eroomde: it looks like a gravity wave overcame the small green child
[19:02] <Upu> confirming you can cut onions and not cry like a girl when wearing contacts
[19:03] <Upu> just don't rub your eyes afterwards
[19:03] <Lunar_Lander> hey Dan-K2VOL
[19:03] <Upu> I'll be up from 7am daveake
[19:03] <SamSilver> I can not see where the momentem came from to tip the green child over
[19:05] <SamSilver> I think the adult put some heavy metal in his mouth
[19:05] <SamSilver> or unicorn horn
[19:05] <Dan-K2VOL> hi Lunar_Lander
[19:06] Nick change: SamSilver -> SamSilver_
[19:06] <SamSilver_> good night
[19:06] TimZaman (~chatzilla@D978C121.cm-3-1d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) joined #highaltitude.
[19:06] <TimZaman> hi guys
[19:06] <Upu> evening Tim
[19:06] <TimZaman> looking for a proper digital (i2c?) humidity sensor
[19:06] <TimZaman> and, maybe another barometric or temp one
[19:07] <TimZaman> i got the DS18B21 and the BMP085
[19:07] <daveake> Thanks Upu :)
[19:07] <TimZaman> Also- can i just run a atmega1280/2560 on 3v3? (8mhz?)
[19:07] <daveake> Aiming for 6:15 or so launch
[19:07] <TimZaman> with arduino bootloader?
[19:08] <daveake> Winds are lighter so I can underfill somewhat and get more height, for a longer flight
[19:10] <TimZaman> :(
[19:10] <Lunar_Lander> hi TimZaman
[19:10] <gb73d> i can rec cocoa w cinamon and all spice blows ur mind
[19:10] <Lunar_Lander> TimZaman: : http://www.sparkfun.com/products/9569 is this what you are searching?
[19:11] <number10> have you got your boots and pink tape paked Upu?
[19:11] <Lunar_Lander> no, it is analogue
[19:11] <Upu> indeed
[19:11] <Upu> pink tape on my rucksack
[19:11] <Lunar_Lander> TimZaman : this is digital: http://www.sparkfun.com/products/8257
[19:11] <daveake> I've used pink wire for the cutdown. I hope you appreciate that :0
[19:12] <number10> I'll look out for you when we are there on Wednesday Upu
[19:12] <number10> I am tracking with pink coax
[19:12] <Upu> I'll still be there
[19:12] <Upu> lol
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[19:12] <TimZaman> Lunar_Lander: not sure if thats good enough for hab
[19:12] <number10> found 30m at work must have been a funky project
[19:12] <TimZaman> need something for -55
[19:13] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[19:14] <daveake> Just checked the weight of cloud2 ... pretty much on target at 700g with 'chute and cord to add.
[19:14] <daveake> That's a comfortable 300g less than last time :)
[19:15] <Upu> code going to work this time ? :)
[19:15] <number10> very strange that there is a label on it saying "Bright Pink COAX" as if it wasnt obvious
[19:15] <daveake> Upu lol
[19:15] <daveake> Yeah, that's fixed :)
[19:16] <number10> been round the block to test the antenna daveake?
[19:16] <daveake> Not yet. Evening walk planned :)
[19:17] <daveake> It's only 5 wires.... what could possibly go wrong? :)
[19:17] <Randomskk> ha, ha, ha
[19:17] <Randomskk> http://www.astrium.eads.net/
[19:17] Action: Randomskk says no more
[19:19] <Lunar_Lander> Randomskk : we actually got that e-mail that they are searching new teams for BEXUS
[19:19] <eroomde> Randomskk: ?
[19:19] <Randomskk> eroomde: the line immediately prior to where I say "ha, ha, ha"
[19:19] <TimZaman> is there a luanch pklanned?
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[19:21] <eroomde> oh yes :)
[19:22] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[19:22] <number10> Upu - have you any walks planned
[19:23] <Upu> not yet now
[19:23] <Upu> yet
[19:23] <Upu> well just make some up when we get there
[19:23] <Upu> see how we feel
[19:23] <Randomskk> Upu: where're you going?
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[19:24] <Upu> Borrowdale in the Lakes for a week
[19:24] <Randomskk> ooh, nice. next week?
[19:24] Action: Randomskk is off to yorkshire for some camping all next week
[19:24] <Upu> tommorrow for a week
[19:24] <Upu> where in Yorkshire ?
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[19:24] <Randomskk> in the dales, horton in ribblesdale in particular
[19:25] <Upu> oh yeah gateway to Pen-y-gent and the 3 peaks
[19:25] <Upu> know it well
[19:25] <Randomskk> indeed
[19:25] <Upu> next week ?
[19:25] <Randomskk> going down on sunday
[19:26] <Upu> some good walks round there
[19:26] <Upu> and great pubs
[19:26] <Randomskk> that's what we're hoping for
[19:26] <Randomskk> good walk all day, good pub for dinner, back to tent for the night, repeat
[19:26] <Upu> doing the 3 peaks ?
[19:26] <Randomskk> yea, though probably in more like three days than 12 hours
[19:27] <Upu> yeah its hard doing it in a day
[19:27] <Upu> wouldn't do it again
[19:27] <Randomskk> two of the four of us haven't really done any serious trekking before, and the other two of us are way out of shape
[19:27] <daveake> The predictor is behaving a bit strangely. check http://habhub.org/predict/#!/uuid=67bbe32bca9fe80281478eb5fbc6c5b2d3fef631 for a 5am (UTC) launch, then change it to be 6am UTC and try again ...
[19:27] <Randomskk> I've been sitting on a chair the last n months due to work
[19:27] <Upu> pen-y-gent is a good but easy walk
[19:27] <number10> whereabouts in borrowdale Upu
[19:28] <Upu> Grange
[19:28] <number10> nice
[19:28] <eroomde> do a couple of runs before
[19:28] <daveake> Will do
[19:28] <eroomde> just for the sake of your knees
[19:28] <daveake> oh, not talking to me :)
[19:28] <eroomde> not you daveake :p
[19:28] <daveake> But it was good advice anyway :p
[19:28] <number10> we are at buttermere for three nights and then keswick for a week
[19:28] <eroomde> the bones and ligaments suffer, muscles recover fine
[19:29] <Randomskk> and a few runs before hand makes a difference?
[19:29] <SpeedEvil> They get used to the impacts, and tighten up
[19:29] <Upu> I have some pictures of penygent but I can't seem to find them
[19:29] <eroomde> Randomskk: well, the impacts cause the bones mass to build up at the joints
[19:30] <eroomde> likewise ligaments
[19:30] <eroomde> not just before but a week or so might help
[19:30] <eroomde> ideally even longer before
[19:30] <Randomskk> right, so I'm leaving on sunday :P
[19:30] <number10> then eventually the cartilage goes in the knees - when you get old
[19:30] <eroomde> i did a 50 mile hike right after 3 months of being totally sedentry
[19:30] <eroomde> knees unhappy
[19:31] <SpeedEvil> Once you fuck your knees, they aren't coming back.
[19:31] <Randomskk> but i like my knees :(
[19:32] <number10> yes - it happened to my wife - had to have a knee operation to remove torn cartilage and surgeon put microfractures into the bon to try and get something to grow back
[19:32] <Upu> ah found them
[19:32] <gb73d> Re SPICE my first idea was maybe to engineer a volcanic eruption to increase reflectance
[19:32] <number10> bone
[19:32] <Upu> huh huh
[19:33] <Upu> Let me upload and share :)
[19:33] <Upu> Randomskk https://picasaweb.google.com/118244444241111963790/PEN_Y_GHENT#5653042681947802978
[19:33] <Upu> enjoy !
[19:34] Action: Randomskk browses
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[19:34] <Randomskk> hehe looks like fun! nice weather :P
[19:35] <Upu> it cleared up
[19:35] <Upu> the second we got down
[19:35] <Randomskk> of course
[19:35] <Randomskk> shorts, though?
[19:35] <Upu> I wasn't wearing shorts
[19:35] <number10> weather looked fine once you came down
[19:36] <Upu> https://picasaweb.google.com/118244444241111963790/200412ScafellPike thats when we did Scarfell in december
[19:36] <Randomskk> epic clouds
[19:36] <Upu> https://picasaweb.google.com/118244444241111963790/200412ScafellPike#5379117314499254306
[19:36] <Randomskk> pub at the end looks like fun
[19:36] <Upu> yeah that was needed
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[19:37] <Upu> yikes
[19:37] <Upu> 2004
[19:37] <Upu> I'm getting old
[19:38] <Randomskk> D:
[19:38] <Dan-K2VOL> hey upu
[19:38] <Upu> evening Dan
[19:38] <Dan-K2VOL> how's it going
[19:38] <Upu> well thanks keep missing you
[19:38] <Upu> hows the video coming along ?
[19:39] <Dan-K2VOL> oh getting all the papers organized to figure out which maths we want to highlight
[19:39] <Dan-K2VOL> nicely
[19:39] <Upu> we are pushed for time so try keep it less than 30 mins if poss :)
[19:40] <Dan-K2VOL> oh yes, planning it for 20 min
[19:40] <Upu> perfect
[19:40] <Randomskk> make it super mathy
[19:40] <Randomskk> everyone loves it when like
[19:40] <Upu> lol
[19:40] <Randomskk> the entire slide is just one giant equation
[19:40] <Randomskk> or actually
[19:40] <Randomskk> filled with the derivation of that equation
[19:40] <jonsowman> speak for yourself
[19:40] <Dan-K2VOL> lol
[19:40] <Randomskk> maybe you could read the equation out, and every step of it
[19:40] <Upu> I get confused with pythagoras theorum so go easy on my brain
[19:40] <Randomskk> but not explain any of the variables
[19:40] Nick change: jackclark_ -> jackclark
[19:41] <Dan-K2VOL> upu I found a program for an unrelated thing at work today that you might want to consider for the presentations, if they happen from one computer - http://join.me
[19:41] <Upu> I'll check it out
[19:41] <Dan-K2VOL> a very easy to use screensharing free service that has a good client for iOS and Android too
[19:42] <daveake> http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1989-12-05/
[19:42] <Dan-K2VOL> Randomskk I'll make sure to just use greek letters for all the variables too, particularly the ones that look like the latin letters
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[19:42] <Randomskk> oh goodie, yes please
[19:43] <Randomskk> but be sure to pronounce them wrong
[19:43] <Dan-K2VOL> mixed with the latin ones they look like
[19:43] <Dan-K2VOL> oh good idea
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[19:43] <Dan-K2VOL> nice dilbert
[19:43] <Randomskk> and don't forget to include "tests" to make sure we're paying attention
[19:43] <Dan-K2VOL> ha
[19:43] <Dan-K2VOL> that would be amusing from a recording
[19:44] <gb73d> i did not make it to wales this year tnx fer the pix
[19:44] <gb73d> next year 4 sure Pen Cerrig Cwch
[19:44] <fsphil> Dan-K2VOL, we could setup a two-way link. you could heckle yourself
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[19:46] <Dan-K2VOL> lol I like it fsphil, I was hoping to skype for Q&A, but auto-heckling would really be a bonus
[19:52] <Laurenceb> so i went down to the local furniture recycling place
[19:52] <Laurenceb> and they have a storeroom off the side - it was full of prisoners
[19:52] <Randomskk> what
[19:52] <Laurenceb> in prison uniform sanding furniture and stuff - so funny
[19:52] <Randomskk> oh right
[19:53] <Laurenceb> prison guards standing watch XD
[19:53] <gb73d> gulag
[19:53] <Upu> I'll have a chat when I get back from hols Dan-K2VOL and set up SkyPE etc
[19:54] <Dan-K2VOL> cool upu thanks
[19:54] <Dan-K2VOL> hols?
[19:55] <Upu> holiday going away for a few days
[19:55] <Dan-K2VOL> cool, enjoy!
[19:55] <Dan-K2VOL> where to?
[19:55] <Upu> you're on the Itinerary http://ukhas.org.uk/general:ukhasconference
[19:55] <Upu> Lake District
[19:55] <Upu> http://g.co/maps/99nne
[19:56] <Upu> there to be more exact
[19:56] <fsphil> workshop idea: eagle cad?
[19:56] Action: Upu stabs fsphil
[19:56] <fsphil> lol
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[19:56] <Upu> its HAB not sadomasicists
[19:57] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[19:57] <Upu> actually yes please I'd love to be shown how to use it
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[19:57] <fsphil> yea that's what I was thinking -- a lot of us have no clue, and there should be some people there who are wizards in it
[19:57] <Lunar_Lander> hi fsphil
[19:57] <fsphil> evening LL!
[19:58] <Lunar_Lander> it is a good topic
[19:58] <Lunar_Lander> as I talked to the balsa shop today
[19:58] Action: Randomskk would be happy to explain some eagle basics if no one else feels like it
[19:58] <Lunar_Lander> they don't have a 30 cm diameter chute ring
[19:58] <Randomskk> I haven't used it for like a year seeing as I now prefer kicad but I did use it extensively for a few years :P
[19:59] <Laurenceb> grr i need to use kicad :P{
[19:59] <Randomskk> on the topic of tools, a lightning introduction to git/github could be fun
[19:59] <Laurenceb> git add -A
[19:59] <Laurenceb> git commit -m 'COMMENT'
[19:59] <Laurenceb> git push
[19:59] <fsphil> my computer is beeping at me and I don't know why... hmmm
[19:59] <Laurenceb> am i doing it right?
[19:59] <Lunar_Lander> but they have 1 meter long round sticks in different cross-section diameters fsphil
[19:59] <Randomskk> Laurenceb: so wrong. but yes.
[19:59] <Lunar_Lander> so these could probably be used to make a radar reflector
[20:00] <Laurenceb> thats about all i ever use :S
[20:00] <fsphil> do you need a radar reflector Lunar_Lander ?
[20:00] <Randomskk> Laurenceb: you know you can git commit -am, right?
[20:00] <Randomskk> the -a to commit makes it add all changed files
[20:00] <Lunar_Lander> it is not required but probably better to have one
[20:00] <Laurenceb> ah ok
[20:00] <Randomskk> (but not new files)
[20:00] <Lunar_Lander> but what I need is the parachute ring
[20:00] <Randomskk> but it to be honest wouldn't be that hard to introduce the idea of branches and github
[20:00] <fsphil> I'm not sure how I'm connecting my new parachute-- it's got the hole in the top for the cord to go through
[20:00] <fsphil> but I might not use that
[20:01] <Lunar_Lander> mine has one as well with two lines sewn into the hole
[20:01] <fsphil> it came with a really cool knot though, no idea what it's called
[20:01] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[20:01] <fsphil> all the cords are made into a loop that I can attach to the main cord
[20:02] <daveake> My 'chute didn't have a hole so I cut one and got Mrs Dave to practice her sewing skills :)
[20:03] <fsphil> nice
[20:03] <fsphil> how did you attach the chute?
[20:03] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[20:04] <Lunar_Lander> I want a chute ring like on the ground on the top photo: http://www.nearsys.com/arhab/flightdata/2010/f/index.htm
[20:04] <daveake> Just tied some knot I invented :p
[20:04] <daveake> I ran the lines from the chute straight to the payload. bad idea.
[20:05] <number10> davake can you do a talk on unique knots
[20:05] <daveake> lol
[20:05] <daveake> They're all one of a kind
[20:05] <number10> thats good - less to learn
[20:06] <daveake> Unfortunately none of my many helpers had a clue either
[20:07] <gb73d> bbl
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[20:07] <Lunar_Lander> does anyone know where to get such wooden rings?
[20:10] <SpeedEvil> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12-inch-30cm-Wood-Embroidery-Hoop-/320721945561?pt=UK_Crafts_Needlework_EH&hash=item4aac8483d9
[20:12] <Lunar_Lander> YAY
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[20:12] <Lunar_Lander> cool thanks SpeedEvil
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[20:13] <SpeedEvil> Or take some bamboo, split it, and bend
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[20:15] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[20:15] <Randomskk> SpeedEvil: I'm looking at that tiiiiny LPC for a BLDC controller
[20:15] <Randomskk> it does actually have 5 ADC inputs and stuff
[20:15] <Randomskk> it can run at 50MHz without an external xtal
[20:15] <Randomskk> it's crazy.
[20:19] <Dan-K2VOL> Lunar_Lander, lots of sewing places have them in wood or plastic
[20:22] <Randomskk> SpeedEvil: I don't think it has quite enough pins =(
[20:22] <Randomskk> two short, in fact
[20:25] <SpeedEvil> Randomskk: Barking mad.
[20:25] <SpeedEvil> Randomskk: Two short?
[20:25] <Randomskk> two pins short of enough for my motor controller.
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[20:25] <SpeedEvil> Randomskk: you can maybe multiplex stuff
[20:26] <Randomskk> MOSI + MISO + CLK + VCC + VCC + GND + GND + ADC0 + ADC1 + ADC2 + TIM1 + TIM2 + TIM3 + TIM4
[20:26] <Randomskk> but I need a TIM5 and a TIM6
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[20:26] <Randomskk> + XTAL + RST and that's its 16
[20:26] <SpeedEvil> Why xtal?
[20:26] <SpeedEvil> Not internal/
[20:26] <Randomskk> pin's dedicated to it
[20:26] <Randomskk> I would use the internal
[20:26] <Randomskk> as it can do 50mhz on its internal
[20:26] <Randomskk> amazing
[20:27] <SpeedEvil> If you're just using one per motor, bit-banging the controller would seem plausible
[20:27] <Randomskk> it's one per motor, but I'm missing two control pins
[20:27] <Randomskk> unless I only use one ADC, rather than three
[20:27] <Randomskk> but that's like, pretty bad
[20:28] <Randomskk> unless you mean drop two SPI pins and use a single line for communication
[20:28] <Randomskk> but I need bidirectional communications
[20:28] <Randomskk> and I need to be able to program the thing
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[20:28] <Matt_soton> cant programming pins be shared?
[20:29] <Randomskk> well they're the spi pins in this case
[20:29] <Randomskk> Matt_soton: have you seen this thing? http://www.nxp.com/news/content/file_1701.html
[20:29] <Randomskk> I mean really?
[20:29] <Randomskk> 2mm by 2mm by 0.6mm
[20:29] <Randomskk> for a 50mhz, 32bit micro
[20:29] <Randomskk> cortex-m0 core
[20:29] <Matt_soton> it only has 12k gates or something
[20:29] <Randomskk> draw it on a scrap of paper
[20:29] <Randomskk> it's soooo small.
[20:30] <Randomskk> Matt_soton: I am totally reinvigorated and desperate to get a quadcopter flying, but I have a whole exciting new approach now
[20:30] <Randomskk> it involves putting a gumstix on each one to do estimation and mission control and computer vision
[20:30] <Matt_soton> whats so new about it?
[20:30] <Randomskk> 4 grams per gumstix but you get an FPU and 600MHz+ CPU
[20:30] <Randomskk> so now I can do proper computer vision and decent state estimation and stuff
[20:30] <Randomskk> and also I'm going to make them tiny
[20:31] <Randomskk> 30 grams for the whole payload
[20:31] <Matt_soton> 'per gumstix', how many are you having?
[20:31] <Randomskk> one per quadcopter
[20:31] <SpeedEvil> Randomskk: Do y ou ahve actual funding for this?
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[20:31] <Randomskk> SpeedEvil: it's personal funding, but I have sufficient funds to do it, yes
[20:31] <Matt_soton> yea i was going to sya
[20:32] <Randomskk> SpeedEvil: like, I can afford a decent four digit sum to go into it
[20:32] <SpeedEvil> gumstix in 4g - link?
[20:32] <Matt_soton> what are the two control pins for that you dont have room for?
[20:32] <Randomskk> Matt_soton: need six motor outputs
[20:32] <Randomskk> SpeedEvil: 4.3 grams http://www.gumstix.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=261
[20:33] <Randomskk> though it goes up to 5g if you want the fpu
[20:33] <Matt_soton> are they all independant, or are there pairs which are compliments
[20:33] <SpeedEvil> 32vqfn package too
[20:33] <Randomskk> Matt_soton: weeeeellll
[20:33] <Matt_soton> then you could have a global 'enable'
[20:33] <Randomskk> they pretty much have to be independent
[20:33] <SpeedEvil> Which is not _quite_ so stupidly small - but still...
[20:33] <Randomskk> SpeedEvil: at that size I'd go for the new stm32s, which are basically designed to do BLDC control, so my life would be easier
[20:33] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[20:34] <Randomskk> Matt_soton: it's six pwm outputs, each pair drives a half h bridge
[20:34] <Randomskk> but I need each to be on/off/hi-z at various times
[20:34] <Randomskk> because it's applying a 3 phase pattern to it
[20:34] <SpeedEvil> global highz?
[20:34] <SpeedEvil> nvm
[20:34] <Randomskk> no
[20:34] <SpeedEvil> silly idea
[20:34] <SpeedEvil> I know
[20:35] <Randomskk> SpeedEvil: though I suddenly wonder if I've misread the specs for the sumstix
[20:35] <Matt_soton> you could have the pin go hi-z, then pull down resistors pull down both sides of the hbidge to turn it off
[20:35] <Randomskk> it says "GS3503S 4.3g, GUM3503S 15.1g (inc shipping case)"
[20:35] <Randomskk> Matt_soton: gotta active ground or you get shoot through
[20:35] <Matt_soton> so one pin can go hi,low,hiz, to make the motor go right, left, off
[20:35] <SpeedEvil> Looking at it - 4g seems very unlikely
[20:36] <Randomskk> SpeedEvil: I wonder if the GS3503S is the ARM chip by itself
[20:36] <Matt_soton> if u say so, no idea on driving these things :P
[20:36] <Randomskk> SpeedEvil: but then why include 'with carrying case' weight
[20:36] <Randomskk> what's the case?
[20:37] <SpeedEvil> 2*6*.4cm, or 6cc
[20:37] <SpeedEvil> Hmm
[20:37] <SpeedEvil> It still seems a little light,
[20:38] <Randomskk> I'm hopeful :(
[20:38] <Randomskk> but I will have to check.
[20:38] <Randomskk> given as the total weight budget is like 30g maybe
[20:38] <Matt_soton> yea the only way then seems to be to multiplex the ADC or one wire comms, which is possible bi-directionally
[20:38] <SpeedEvil> The connector is a major pain
[20:38] <Randomskk> Matt_soton: but then programming is hard, and high speed comms is hard
[20:38] Action: SpeedEvil wonders.
[20:38] <Randomskk> SpeedEvil: yea. seriously.
[20:38] <Randomskk> SpeedEvil: but it has a 27 pin interface for cameras
[20:38] <Randomskk> which is /so ideal/
[20:38] <SpeedEvil> Randomskk: hmm
[20:38] <Randomskk> would make hooking up a camera really easy
[20:39] <Matt_soton> im i right in thinking u want high bandwidth in one direction and not the other? that would make things easier
[20:40] <Randomskk> Matt_soton: well maybe
[20:40] <Randomskk> but even then
[20:40] <Randomskk> I think I'd really want a decent, high speed, reliable link to the motor controllers
[20:40] <Randomskk> like SPI or I²C
[20:40] <Randomskk> and if SPI I can then reprogram it easily, so
[20:40] <Matt_soton> so not rs232 based
[20:41] <Randomskk> ideally no
[20:41] <Randomskk> meh
[20:41] <Randomskk> it's a fun idea but I guess really the stm32 series ones with builtin proper bldc control stuff is going to win out
[20:41] <Randomskk> just, a 2mm by 2mm chip is omgtiny
[20:41] <Randomskk> it'd make board design (a nightmare, because it's a 16 pin bga)
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[20:41] <SpeedEvil> Then so would the 120 pin connector on the gumstix
[20:42] <Matt_soton> at least getting pins out should be ok, just via the middle ones?
[20:42] <Matt_soton> considered putting a fpga in the middle controlling eveything?
[20:43] <SpeedEvil> A hack occurs...
[20:44] <Randomskk> Matt_soton: fpga is complicated :( haven't really
[20:44] <Matt_soton> woudlnt it be easier to get it flying with a generic m3 b4 adding video and a A8?
[20:44] <Randomskk> right now my daydream involves four Cortex-M* parts doing BLDC control, four tiny BLDCs, a power circuit, a 1Ahr lipo or something, gumstix with all the horsepower
[20:44] <Randomskk> maybe, maybe not - the A8 would make doing the state estimation and other autopiloty stuff so much easier
[20:45] <SpeedEvil> If you set it up so that three of the motor driving pins are ADCs, and then have the sense lines going to the motor through a resistive divider.
[20:45] <SpeedEvil> And then tristate the pins when you want to read
[20:45] <Randomskk> well the one you read is tristated anyway
[20:45] <SpeedEvil> This may be what you want to do anyway
[20:45] <SpeedEvil> as you can't read a driven pin
[20:45] <SpeedEvil> s/pin/phase/
[20:45] <Randomskk> at any given point you have one phase being driven low, one phase being driven high, and one phase high-z
[20:45] <SpeedEvil> Yeah - I know.
[20:46] <Randomskk> so for the six h-bridge controls, you have a high on and low off, low on and high off and both off
[20:46] <Randomskk> right
[20:46] <Randomskk> hmmm
[20:46] <Randomskk> so you could ADC read on the hi-z one
[20:46] <Randomskk> that's
[20:46] <Randomskk> well
[20:46] <Randomskk> wouldn't that be issues with the transistors
[20:46] <Randomskk> because actually the high-z phase just means both transistors are off
[20:46] <SpeedEvil> Not if you keep the input voltage at ~0-1V
[20:46] <Randomskk> but I'm actively driving the transistors both on and off to prevent shoot through
[20:46] <Randomskk> which means the pins connected to them would be set
[20:47] <SpeedEvil> What transistors - small very low threshold p and n channel?
[20:47] <Randomskk> probably. not sure what to do about that stage exactly yet - my old design was a bit
[20:47] <Randomskk> well, it had all n channel MOSFETs for the power stage
[20:47] <Randomskk> and it had all the MOSFETs being driven by 2+ BJTs
[20:47] <Randomskk> and it had a voltage doubler to get the MOSFET gate voltage for the high side
[20:48] <Matt_soton> ive seen an arrangement wiht a capacitor and diode to get the high side n-chan FETs drive voltage
[20:49] <Randomskk> https://randomskk.net/u/minimoc.pdf
[20:49] <Randomskk> Matt_soton: yea, that's what I'm doing
[20:49] <Randomskk> voltage doubler
[20:49] <Randomskk> schematic ^
[20:49] <Randomskk> "charge pump" even
[20:50] <SpeedEvil> That rapidly results in a parts count explosion
[20:50] <Matt_soton> btw u looked at ASIC solutions?
[20:50] <Randomskk> for bldc control? no
[20:51] <Matt_soton> they may have all this built in
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[20:52] <Randomskk> I didn't expect any to exist
[20:52] <Randomskk> it turns out they do
[20:52] <Randomskk> though £8 each
[20:52] <Randomskk> http://uk.farnell.com/allegro-microsystems/a3930kjp-t/ic-motor-driver-3-phase-bldc/dp/1650229
[20:52] <Randomskk> and external power stage
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[20:52] <Randomskk> though it does the charge pump internally
[20:53] <Matt_soton> yea ive found a ti one, but its a 56 pin package
[20:53] <Matt_soton> which doesnt really help
[20:53] <SpeedEvil> Randomskk: this is what operating voltage?
[20:54] <Randomskk> yea good question
[20:54] <Randomskk> given as that part is 5.5v to 50v
[20:54] <Randomskk> let's see
[20:54] <Matt_soton> the way this does the charge pump is to connect the cap on the motor output rather then having a seperate transistor
[20:54] <SpeedEvil> ah - nvm - you can't do what I was thinking with n and p channel, as the voltage of the micro is too low
[20:54] <Randomskk> 3v7 :/
[20:54] <Randomskk> single cell motor
[20:54] <SpeedEvil> 4.2 to 3V
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[20:55] <Randomskk> http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__9666__HobbyKing_AP_02_7000kv_Brushless_Micro_Motor_2_3g_.html
[20:55] <Randomskk> that motor is insanely small
[20:55] <SpeedEvil> So you will need a pile of gate drivers
[20:55] <Randomskk> SpeedEvil: yea, like in that schematic above
[20:55] <Randomskk> where I've got like, two chips with two BJTs in per MOSFET
[20:56] <Randomskk> those two-bjt chips are really tiny at least
[20:56] <Randomskk> http://uk.farnell.com/nxp/pemd48-115/trans-npn-pnp-50v-0-1a-sot666/dp/1758013
[20:56] <SpeedEvil> the chips do level shifting?
[20:56] <Randomskk> which chips?
[20:56] <SpeedEvil> the BJT chips
[20:56] <Randomskk> Matt_soton: actually the really low motor voltage level is an issue I hadn't considered
[20:57] <Randomskk> suddenly things like the voltage drop on the drive system really matters
[20:57] <Randomskk> SpeedEvil: no, they're just two BJT transistors
[20:57] <Randomskk> oh, unless you mean that's what I'm using them for
[20:57] <Randomskk> in which case yes, kind of
[20:57] <Randomskk> they drive the mosfets
[20:57] <Randomskk> but I just realised my design is for a 3S (~12V) motor drive
[20:57] <SpeedEvil> I mean - do they go from 0-3V to 0-4.2V
[20:57] <Randomskk> which means the mosfets work
[20:57] <Randomskk> but for a single cell one it breaks
[20:57] <SpeedEvil> You need funky FETs for single cell
[20:57] <Randomskk> yea
[20:57] <Randomskk> or BJTs I guess
[20:58] <Randomskk> there's a 3.1g motor which is 2S
[20:58] <Randomskk> gives a lot more thrust too actually
[20:58] <Randomskk> more than enough to make up for the weight
[20:58] <Randomskk> but uses a lot more current
[20:58] <Randomskk> then again I'd be able to carry a ton more battery
[20:59] <Randomskk> http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__9664__HobbyKing_AP03_4200kv_Brushless_Micro_Motor_3_1g_.html or similar
[20:59] <Randomskk> 61g each
[20:59] <Randomskk> four of them gives 244g total lift at 1.7A
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[21:04] <SpeedEvil> There are some mad FETs out
[21:04] <SpeedEvil> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=BSL802SN%20L6327INCT-ND
[21:05] <Randomskk> what
[21:05] <Randomskk> .75V?
[21:05] <SpeedEvil> That is quite big
[21:05] <SpeedEvil> 2.9*1.6
[21:06] <SpeedEvil> That's the threshold
[21:06] <SpeedEvil> at which it passes 30uA
[21:06] <Randomskk> oh right
[21:06] <Randomskk> not very useful at that point
[21:06] <SpeedEvil> The number you're interested in is the rds(on) at specified vgs
[21:06] <Randomskk> but still I can go up to 3v7 or so. or if I can drive it right from the micro I could get rid of all of the gate drivers
[21:06] <SpeedEvil> and it'll doo 22mR at 2.5V
[21:06] <Randomskk> oho.
[21:06] <SpeedEvil> But you need the highside too
[21:06] <Randomskk> at which point I could drive the low sides of the bridges directly on/off from the micro
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[21:07] <SpeedEvil> Gate charge is 4.7nC
[21:07] <SpeedEvil> So, at 1mA, you will charge it in 4.7us
[21:07] <Matt_soton> you could have a central 5V supply for the motor controllers if u dont mind using a AVR or something
[21:07] <Matt_soton> im guessing no 5V arms
[21:07] <SpeedEvil> Plenty fast enough
[21:07] <Matt_soton> although the stm32 is 5V tolerant
[21:08] <Matt_soton> but then u would need pullups which you dont want?
[21:08] <Randomskk> at 1S I don't have 5V supply
[21:08] <Randomskk> if I go to 2S and those slightly beefier motors I guess I do
[21:08] <Matt_soton> switch mode power supply?
[21:09] <SpeedEvil> Aha
[21:09] <SpeedEvil> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=BSR802N%20L6327INCT-ND
[21:09] <Randomskk> more space and cost though
[21:09] <SpeedEvil> that's a better fit
[21:09] <SpeedEvil> Much smaller
[21:09] <Randomskk> oh wow.
[21:09] <Randomskk> and 3.7A
[21:09] <Randomskk> which is more than the motor max current
[21:09] <Randomskk> my goodness
[21:09] <Randomskk> that's way better
[21:09] <Matt_soton> it can be central however, u dont need 4 on eaCH arm
[21:09] <Randomskk> that's so so much better than giant sodding TO220s I was using in the old one, too
[21:09] <Randomskk> Matt_soton: yea true, but even so
[21:09] <Randomskk> if the whole thing can run on 3v logic, that's even better
[21:09] <Randomskk> not sure what voltage the gumstix requires actually
[21:10] <Randomskk> 3v3 to 4v2
[21:10] <Randomskk> that's fine
[21:10] <Randomskk> all logic's at 1v8 though so that'l be fun
[21:11] <Matt_soton> i dont think the weight is much of an issue, u could have a signal IC + 2caps to generate the voltage if u wanted to save weight, but the extra voltage will be a pain
[21:11] <Randomskk> board space might be more concerning. though as I suspect it'l be four layers anyway I'll probably be doing a panel at a time
[21:13] <Matt_soton> mind u whatever happens a high side voltage will be needed?
[21:13] <Randomskk> yea, gonna have to have a charge pump someplace
[21:13] <Randomskk> well
[21:13] <Randomskk> unless I use p channel high side mosfets
[21:13] <Randomskk> but that's less efficient
[21:15] <Matt_soton> http://www.maxim-ic.com/datasheet/index.mvp/id/1736 for example
[21:15] Action: SpeedEvil wonders.
[21:15] <SpeedEvil> Are there suitable threshold 74ish parts that would work for a latch?
[21:15] <Randomskk> what, to latch the pwm mosfet drive commands?
[21:16] <Randomskk> and so use the 2mm by 2mm chips again?
[21:16] <Randomskk> they'd probably be so big as to make the space saving pointless :P
[21:16] <SpeedEvil> Something like an octal latch with 6V supply tollerance, beefy enough transistors to drive the FETs, and ...
[21:16] <SpeedEvil> yeah - tehre is that
[21:16] <SpeedEvil> I don't think much 74* logic comes in ubga :)
[21:16] number10 (569a25e8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.154.37.232) left irc: Quit: Page closed
[21:16] <Randomskk> :P
[21:17] <Randomskk> indeed
[21:17] <Matt_soton> http://guide-images.ifixit.net/igi/RRu1GyTsW26ItbHc <-copy :P
[21:17] <SpeedEvil> ...
[21:17] <Matt_soton> from the parrot btw
[21:17] <Randomskk> ASIC :P
[21:17] <Randomskk> yea, I've seen it
[21:17] <Randomskk> so so so tiny
[21:17] <Randomskk> pretty amazing really
[21:17] <SpeedEvil> I wonder if any of the silly-small LED drivers can be convinced to do it
[21:17] <Randomskk> but it's a custom asic aiui
[21:17] <Matt_soton> but it has alot of silicon on that board
[21:18] <Matt_soton> apparently thats driven by a 8bit micro
[21:18] <Randomskk> hmm
[21:18] <Randomskk> I guess.
[21:18] <Randomskk> the RC BLDC ESCs are usually AVRs or something
[21:18] <Randomskk> it can be done
[21:18] <Randomskk> wonder what the 8 pin things are. probably mosfets
[21:18] <Randomskk> three of them, one per phase
[21:18] <Matt_soton> that would make sense
[21:19] <Matt_soton> may even have those transisotrs built in (the bjts in your original design)
[21:19] <Randomskk> yea possibly
[21:19] <Randomskk> but using those low voltage fets I don't need them any more
[21:19] <Randomskk> just need to work out how I drive the high side, then
[21:19] <Matt_soton> even for high side?
[21:19] <Matt_soton> :P
[21:19] <Randomskk> I guess high side'd be a charge pump plus the same kind of setup
[21:19] <Randomskk> still fairly tiny
[21:20] <Matt_soton> unless u can find a decent p-chan
[21:20] <Randomskk> true, that'd do it
[21:20] <Matt_soton> who knows these days...
[21:20] <Randomskk> the lower efficiency'd still be annoying though
[21:20] <Randomskk> also if I'm using a 36tqfp stm32 it's like, massive anyway
[21:20] <Randomskk> which is :(
[21:21] <Randomskk> compared to 2mm by 2mm chips. !!!! seriously so small
[21:21] <Matt_soton> qfn for stm32 surely?
[21:21] <Randomskk> maybe they do that line in them now
[21:21] <Randomskk> farnell is helpfully offline
[21:21] Action: Randomskk -> st.com
[21:22] <Matt_soton> are u after the 100 series ones?
[21:23] <Randomskk> yea, value line, new release
[21:23] <Randomskk> vfqfpn36 packages available for some things it seems
[21:23] <Matt_soton> so is it the timers in those ur after?
[21:23] <Randomskk> and the comparators
[21:24] <Randomskk> well maybe it wasn't comparators, maybe it was the freerunning ADCs with threshold interrupt
[21:24] <fergusnoble> I would really consider the F2 series, although its only available in 64pin minimum
[21:24] <fergusnoble> 14 timers of joy
[21:24] <Matt_soton> well even with 12 timers or whatever, they have 4 comparitors per timer
[21:25] <Matt_soton> should be more then enough
[21:25] <Randomskk> as in analogue comparators
[21:25] <Randomskk> not time ones
[21:25] <Randomskk> for detecting zero crossing of the motor back emf
[21:25] <Matt_soton> yea i realise the difference
[21:25] <Matt_soton> but do u need 14 timers, cant u use one but for 4 different things
[21:25] <Randomskk> don't need 14 timers really
[21:26] <Randomskk> but not looking at parts that do (though the f2 series is so so nice as a main cpu)
[21:26] <Randomskk> it's the f100 (as in, not f101) that do the really nice stuff I want
[21:26] <Randomskk> sadly they're only LQFP48 (7mm by 7mm) or TFBGA64 (5mm by 5mm)
[21:26] <Randomskk> the latter of which would be the worst nightmare to route
[21:26] <Randomskk> though smallest option
[21:26] <Matt_soton> yea u would only want to use the outside pins
[21:26] <Matt_soton> and a few in the middle
[21:27] <Randomskk> wait, it says lqfp48 but I don't think they're actually doing them in that
[21:27] <Randomskk> maybe they do
[21:27] <fergusnoble> I was thinking you could use an F2 to run all the motors and as a mina cpu if you put on a couple of external comparators
[21:27] <fergusnoble> *main
[21:27] <Randomskk> fergusnoble: rather than four f100s?
[21:27] <Randomskk> fergusnoble: so my sexy new design for my mini quadcopter involves a gumstix as the cpu
[21:27] <fergusnoble> oh i see
[21:27] <Randomskk> then I get the fpu and 600mhz A8 to do my estimation, mission control and computer vision
[21:27] <Randomskk> and it doesn't weigh much - website claims 5 grams though I'm suspicious/
[21:28] <fergusnoble> I can go weigh one iuw
[21:28] <Randomskk> http://www.gumstix.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=227
[21:28] <Randomskk> claims 5.6g GS3503F
[21:29] <Randomskk> and 42.6g GUM3503F (inc shipping case and antennas)
[21:29] <Randomskk> but I imagine the whole thing boxed is >42g
[21:29] <Randomskk> so I don't get what the shipping case is
[21:29] <Randomskk> and therefore crucially don't know how much the module itself actually weighs
[21:29] <fergusnoble> just weighed it at 5.9g with sd card but no antennas
[21:29] <Randomskk> oh, wow.
[21:29] <Randomskk> so it really is
[21:29] <Randomskk> that's amazing
[21:30] <Randomskk> (thanks!)
[21:30] <fergusnoble> the wifi antenna is 7.5g
[21:30] <Randomskk> yea I dunno if I'd use them or not
[21:30] <Randomskk> could potentially use that for all of my wireless networking
[21:30] <Randomskk> rather than external 2.4ghz radios
[21:30] <Randomskk> ad-hoc wifi network
[21:30] <Randomskk> kind of tempting really
[21:30] <Randomskk> would be really nice
[21:30] <Randomskk> there exist lighter wifi antennas
[21:30] <SpeedEvil> How much is a gumstix? 150 quid?
[21:30] <fergusnoble> yeah paparazzi works nicely with telem over wifi
[21:30] <Randomskk> cheapest one is like $120, the one with FPU is $220
[21:30] <SpeedEvil> Hell - a 6cm dipole isn't heavy
[21:31] <Randomskk> fergusnoble: what code exists for the gumstix?
[21:31] <fergusnoble> quite a lot
[21:31] <Randomskk> so it seems like it might be a really neat option to get my tiny tiny quadcopters
[21:31] <fergusnoble> we were using a gumstix for all our control on the joby vehicles
[21:31] <Randomskk> tons of cpu power, sod all weight, plus it has a builtin 27 line camera interface
[21:31] <fergusnoble> all that code is in paparazzi
[21:31] <Randomskk> oh lovely
[21:32] <Randomskk> so I could connect up an embedded camera really really easily
[21:32] <Randomskk> and therefore my computer vision stuff would be really happy
[21:32] <fergusnoble> it was designed for lisa/l so you can look at the schematics for that
[21:32] <Randomskk> what does the stm32 on the lisa/l take care of?
[21:32] <fergusnoble> it still had an stm doing low level sensor reading etc.
[21:32] <Randomskk> ah, okay
[21:32] <Randomskk> theoretically the gumstix could if it wanted, right? it has spi and i2c etc, just at 1v8?
[21:32] <Randomskk> probably easier to have an stm32 I guess
[21:32] <fergusnoble> yeah
[21:33] <Randomskk> then only need to do level conversion for stm32 to gumstix
[21:33] <fergusnoble> although some of the driver support for that stuff is not well developed yet
[21:33] <Randomskk> that'd have to be a damn quick interface though, if I want to stream all the sensor readings plus all the motor control
[21:33] <Randomskk> meh I guess fast spi is very fast, anyway
[21:33] <fergusnoble> yeah, like I say it was working on our vehicles ok
[21:34] <fergusnoble> the stm->gumstix link was spi iirc
[21:34] <fergusnoble> if you wanted to get it running quickly you could always use commercial motor controolers for now
[21:34] <fergusnoble> hobbyking have some tiny ones
[21:35] <Matt_soton> farnell is back btw
[21:35] <Randomskk> oh they really do
[21:35] <Randomskk> hmmm
[21:35] <Randomskk> that's a thought, I guess
[21:35] <Randomskk> not sure then
[21:35] <fergusnoble> yeah, also ones that work with one cell packs
[21:35] <Randomskk> my plan is to end up with a single pcb quadcopter that's tiny, has motors mounted to pcb, motor control on the pcb, gumstix on the pcb that does the maths and telem etc
[21:35] <fergusnoble> yeah that would be nice
[21:35] <Randomskk> I'm not sure what the intermediate stage looks like though
[21:36] <Randomskk> where I have a gumstix doing maths, I guess, but use commercial escs?
[21:36] <Randomskk> still gonna need to make a PCB for the gumstix (and IMU?)
[21:36] <fergusnoble> depends on how much time you want to spend on making motor controllers before you have something flying
[21:37] <Randomskk> ideally not much, but not having one in the initial design means requiring doing another run of four layer PCBs and soldering all the stuff up
[21:37] <Randomskk> http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__17639__2_4Ghz_SuperMicro_Systems_Brushless_ESC_3_5A.html
[21:37] <Randomskk> how is that so small
[21:37] <Randomskk> it looks like a single IC
[21:37] <Randomskk> if I can just copy that I'd be laughing
[21:37] <fergusnoble> hehe, you can probably read the IC markings from that photo
[21:38] <SpeedEvil> other side of the board
[21:38] <Randomskk> yea I imagine the other side is well populated
[21:38] <Randomskk> but still
[21:38] <Randomskk> that's friggin tiny.
[21:38] <Randomskk> how is that so smallhttp://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__11885___Hobbyking_3A_Single_Cell_ESC_Brushed_Micro_Motors.html too
[21:38] <Randomskk> that's even smaller
[21:38] <BrainDamage> I'd still check the datasheet
[21:38] <BrainDamage> it's probably not too different from some app notes
[21:39] <Randomskk> http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__9667__HobbyKing_XP_3A_1S_0_7g_Brushless_Speed_Controller_.html appears to be six transistors on one side and I guess a micro ont he other
[21:39] <Randomskk> and is also stupidly tiny
[21:39] <Randomskk> in theory if I could design something that small I may as well just have that on the pcb for r1
[21:39] <Randomskk> it would be nice to get something flying before spending months designing a pcb for a gumstix and motor control and all the rest?
[21:39] <fergusnoble> oh its some 8051 thing :(
[21:39] <Randomskk> ah
[21:39] <Randomskk> so a micro, and presumably parts on the other side
[21:40] <Randomskk> http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__10573__5A_1S_Brushless_Controller.html is clearly an AVR
[21:40] <Randomskk> I guess for that I could just make the PCB have mounting holes to solder the tiny hobbyking ESCs to
[21:40] <Randomskk> and that'd definitely get a thing flying
[21:41] <Randomskk> 0.3g for the tiny red one. crazy.
[21:41] <fergusnoble> yeah, thats probably what I would do
[21:42] <Randomskk> hmm
[21:42] <Randomskk> and then have the pcb with gumstix and
[21:42] <Randomskk> what'd you do for imu?
[21:42] <fergusnoble> wonder if they have read-protected the flash :)
[21:42] <Randomskk> could shove aspirin on
[21:42] <fergusnoble> aspirin without a doubt
[21:42] <fergusnoble> would be hard to make it any smaller than that
[21:42] <Randomskk> indeed
[21:42] <Randomskk> out of stock though :(
[21:42] <fergusnoble> I can ask about that, one sec
[21:43] <Randomskk> it seems like for r1 having mount-on ESC and IMU would be really sensible, then if I wanted to make a single integrated pcb that would be an improvement rather than a whole ton of design work having to all work first time
[21:43] <Randomskk> still a whole ton of work to get a gumstix, four of those escs, an stm32 that can coordinate everything and the imu all in place
[21:43] <Randomskk> but a lot more managable
[21:44] <Randomskk> leave off the camera for r1 as well I suspect
[21:44] <fergusnoble> ok it turns out we have plenty in stock
[21:44] <Randomskk> oh huh
[21:44] <Randomskk> okay
[21:45] <Randomskk> are they likely to be for sale any time?
[21:45] <fergusnoble> just the ones off the carrier board were left as out of stock on the website because people were ordering them and then complaining that they didnt kow what to do with it
[21:45] <Randomskk> oh I see
[21:45] <Randomskk> perhaps some arrangement could be come to then ;)
[21:45] <fergusnoble> oh yeah you can definately buy them now
[21:45] <Randomskk> this is shaping up interestingly then
[21:46] <fergusnoble> the guy who runs the shop said he will send them to people who specifically request them
[21:46] <Randomskk> so it's what, a pcb with mounts for 4x tiny hobbyking ESC, an aspirin, mounting holes for four motors, battery and power management, an stm32 connected to escs and aspirin and gumstix, a gumstix mounting thing
[21:46] <fergusnoble> ok, they should be back in stock on the shop now
[21:47] <Randomskk> so they are
[21:47] <Randomskk> magic
[21:48] <Randomskk> wait I'm a bit confused about the gumstix, what's the big bga part that's not fitted on the water?
[21:48] <Randomskk> I thought it was the fpu
[21:48] <Randomskk> but apparently the water has the fpu and doesn't have that?
[21:48] <fergusnoble> its the wifi/bluetooth module
[21:48] <Randomskk> oh duh, wireless
[21:48] <Randomskk> yea
[21:48] <Randomskk> wonder if want
[21:49] <fergusnoble> the fpu is in the omap
[21:50] <Randomskk> ooh, difference between the 3503 and 3530 is the dsp stuff then?
[21:50] <Randomskk> got it
[21:52] <SpeedEvil> Randomskk: And the gyro/accel/... too
[21:52] <Randomskk> SpeedEvil: asprin
[21:52] <SpeedEvil> Randomskk: Oh
[21:53] <Randomskk> https://www.jobyrobotics.com/product.php?id_product=42 is tiny, ready made
[21:53] <Randomskk> so probably easier than putting all that on the pcb itself
[21:53] <Randomskk> for r1 anyway
[21:53] <SpeedEvil> ah
[21:53] <fergusnoble> actually, my bad, none of the gumstix have floating point, but the 3530 ones have a dsp and gpu
[21:53] <Randomskk> huh, okay
[21:53] <Randomskk> so what, use the dsp and do fixed point maths on it?
[21:54] <fergusnoble> yeah you can do that
[21:54] <Randomskk> or just use the fact that frankly it's a 600mhz cpu and it can eat an stm32's 72mhz for breakfast?
[21:54] <fergusnoble> although the arm core has a lot of grunt too
[21:54] <fergusnoble> yeah
[21:54] <fergusnoble> we didnt try using the dsp
[21:54] <Randomskk> is the 3530 worth having over the 3503 then?
[21:54] <fergusnoble> and it ran a fairly big estimator easily
[21:55] <fergusnoble> up to you, the DSP would be cool to play with
[21:55] <Randomskk> true, not a huge amount in the price really
[21:55] <Randomskk> plus by the time I'm having multiple of them I can fit whatever happens to work, same connector
[21:55] <fergusnoble> http://pixhawk.ethz.ch/wiki/start
[21:55] <fergusnoble> these guys have some good documentation on using the DSP
[21:56] <Randomskk> cool
[21:57] <Randomskk> looks like nice stuff
[21:57] <fergusnoble> if you can get my one back off ed then you can use that
[21:57] <fergusnoble> I dont need it right now
[21:57] <Randomskk> which ed, c?
[21:57] <fergusnoble> yeah
[21:57] <Randomskk> oh, I didn't realise there was already a gumstix stuck on that one
[21:57] <fergusnoble> should have been& :)
[21:57] <fergusnoble> its a fire
[21:57] <Randomskk> might be best leaving it for cusf stuff though I may play with it in that capacity
[21:58] <Randomskk> gumstix+stm32 seems a fun technology base
[21:58] <fergusnoble> yeah well im sure they wouldnt be using it all the time
[21:58] <fergusnoble> yeah you can do a lot with that
[22:01] <Randomskk> hmm just have to work out what to spend money on initially then
[22:02] <Randomskk> I wonder if there's a stage before making a PCB
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[22:03] <Randomskk> http://www.gumstix.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=239 maybe
[22:04] <fergusnoble> yeah there is this really cool UAV platform that would be perfect for initial development
[22:04] <Randomskk> prototyping stuff is all heavier than the integrated solution though
[22:04] <Randomskk> hahah oh really
[22:04] <Randomskk> and maybe it's available via a kind of fundraising scheme
[22:04] <Matt_soton> u could program a stm32 to keep it stable on just a breadboard
[22:04] <Matt_soton> no pcb needed?
[22:04] <Randomskk> Matt_soton: have fun putting an stm32 into a breadboard
[22:04] <Randomskk> but yes, point taken, and I have stm32 on breakouts
[22:04] <fergusnoble> well you could borrow the spaceflight lisa/l
[22:04] <Randomskk> that plus a gyro is in theory enough to get started
[22:04] <Matt_soton> get a eval board
[22:05] <Randomskk> but I'm not planning to end up with estimation and stabalisation running on the stm32
[22:05] <Randomskk> so it would be wasted effort in that direction?
[22:05] <fergusnoble> no, it has the gumstix too right
[22:05] <fergusnoble> it could run a very similar code base
[22:05] <Matt_soton> yea well im not too sure what u intended to run on the stm32
[22:05] <Randomskk> fergusnoble: is there any rough eta on shipping the espresso kind of stuff? like, first half 2012?
[22:05] <Matt_soton> but c code is c code
[22:05] <Randomskk> fergusnoble: I was responding to matt, the lisa/l would work
[22:06] <Randomskk> Matt_soton: it's probably more effort in the optimisation and integration
[22:06] <Randomskk> though admittedly I don't really know
[22:06] <fergusnoble> espresso will ship when they get the airframes which they think will be quite soon after xmas but cant give a firm date yet
[22:06] <Matt_soton> well they are both 32 bit, is there really much difference?
[22:07] <Matt_soton> or the dsp stuff?
[22:07] <Randomskk> fergusnoble: in theory if I had a gumstix and the rest running inside the cappuccino it'd transfer fairly easily to a smaller quadcopter, huh
[22:07] <Randomskk> Matt_soton: not sure, maybe. I mean that said both would be running papparazzi I guess, so
[22:08] <Randomskk> fergusnoble: so I could start considering pcb designs in the next few months and play with programming the gumstix and maybe think up a more detailed system design, once say a cappuccino arrived put a gumstix inside plus have the other required hardware ready to go...
[22:08] <Randomskk> and then once stuff is flying start work on a tiny carrier pcb for the little escs, little motors, little battery, etc
[22:09] <Matt_soton> so what is on the stm32 in the end?
[22:09] <fergusnoble> yeah sounds like a good plan
[22:09] <Randomskk> Matt_soton: glue mostly
[22:09] <Matt_soton> oh ok
[22:09] <Randomskk> read the IMU sensors
[22:09] <Randomskk> write to the motor controllers
[22:09] <Randomskk> communicate with the gumstix
[22:09] <Randomskk> do all of that as fast as it can
[22:09] <fergusnoble> spaceflight need to get an aspirin and carrier for the lisa/l anyway too
[22:09] <Matt_soton> oh ok
[22:09] <Randomskk> fergusnoble: do you know what the motor controllers quadshot uses? are they commercial pwm-driven ones?
[22:10] <Randomskk> like, motor speed controlled by pwm
[22:10] <Randomskk> I was always dubious about the update rate of that
[22:11] <fergusnoble> they are commercial and I think they are i2c based, I'm just asking them now
[22:11] <Randomskk> Matt_soton: if there was radio off-gumstix, it'd probably do that too
[22:11] <Randomskk> but I think I'd just use the wifi on the gumstix, way easier
[22:11] <Randomskk> fergusnoble: cool, thanks
[22:11] <Randomskk> that would be my main concern if I had a prototyping stage that involved the hobbyking escs
[22:12] <Matt_soton> u may find the stm32 isnt needed in the end, if the gumstix has the peripherals to drive the controllers
[22:12] <Randomskk> it does, but at 1v8 and with harder drivers
[22:12] <fergusnoble> I think they are from some OEM, they arent exactly the fancyest controllers you can buy but they seem to be easily fast enough for the quadshot
[22:12] <Randomskk> so there'd be tons of logic level conversion
[22:13] <Randomskk> Matt_soton: easier to have the gumstix talk over one serial protocol that runs very fast and can send commands to the stm32
[22:13] <Randomskk> well, maybe
[22:13] <fergusnoble> obviously the dynamics of the small single-pcb version are going to be much faster thogh
[22:13] <Randomskk> fergusnoble: yea, that concerns me. might mandate custom ESCs from the start
[22:14] <fergusnoble> hmm, yeah
[22:14] <Matt_soton> well if u want somethig fast to play with buy ESCs, otherwise you might as well develop them now rather then later
[22:15] <Randomskk> I wonder if I order a quadshot, then in the months until that arrives try making an stm32 based ESC
[22:15] <Randomskk> then once it turns up I can start playing with gumstix and things like that, and once something's working I hopefully have all the parts to stick together to make the tiny quadcopter
[22:15] <Randomskk> ideally in time for fourth year, then do swarming tiny quadcopters as a fourth year project :P
[22:16] <Matt_soton> so no software tunable antenna? :P
[22:16] <Randomskk> man, I dunno
[22:16] <Randomskk> both would be super cool 4th year projects
[22:16] <Matt_soton> what is the actual name for that thing again?
[22:16] <Randomskk> also my company has offered to sponsor an info eng project related to their stuff, so that's an option
[22:16] <Randomskk> Matt_soton: the algorithm is MUSIC
[22:16] <Matt_soton> that google search went well...
[22:16] <Randomskk> multiple signal classification
[22:17] <Randomskk> though a lot of the references you will find are to the version that does frequency content estimation
[22:17] <Randomskk> as opposed to direction of arrival
[22:17] <Randomskk> eroomde is the person to talk at about that I guess
[22:17] <Matt_soton> yea i wasnt going to look into it in that much detail
[22:17] <Matt_soton> was interested
[22:18] <Matt_soton> it even has a fb page
[22:18] <Matt_soton> i could be the 6th person to like it
[22:18] <Randomskk> I think most wikipedia articles do
[22:18] <Matt_soton> oh
[22:18] <Matt_soton> lesss impressive now
[22:18] <Randomskk> the content might be surprisingly similar :P
[22:19] <Matt_soton> '
[22:19] <Matt_soton> 'From Wikipedia, the free encyclopaedia'
[22:19] <Matt_soton> the sentence 'of a signal or autocorrelation matrix using an eigenspace method' has really put me off
[22:20] <Randomskk> really? that's the kind of thing that should be a massive turnon :P
[22:20] <Randomskk> linear algebra <3
[22:20] <Randomskk> at work last week I used a polar decomposition and it was amazing
[22:20] <Matt_soton> you would have thought it may be if im doing a dsp 3rd yr project
[22:21] <Matt_soton> i tried to shot a remote control helicopter with a nerf gun...
[22:21] <Randomskk> that'd be a good 3rd year project too
[22:21] <Randomskk> oh, I guess I'd need to put a pressure on separately, too.
[22:21] <Randomskk> and GPS.
[22:22] <Randomskk> crucially GPS :P
[22:22] <Matt_soton> meh, just a serial port on the gumstix?
[22:22] <Randomskk> well probably do both via the stm32 again
[22:22] <fergusnoble> well if you need a really sweet gps I might be able to help with that too
[22:22] <Randomskk> hehe
[22:22] <fergusnoble> at least in a little while
[22:22] <Randomskk> I don't think the tiny quadcopter could carry the radio frontend stuff
[22:23] <Randomskk> vs this thing: http://www.u-blox.com/en/gps-modules/pvt-modules/max-6.html
[22:23] <Randomskk> look at that, it's stupidly small
[22:23] <fergusnoble> Randomskk: the motor controllers are PWM but runn at 400Hz update rate
[22:23] <fergusnoble> faster than the i2c versions
[22:23] <Randomskk> fergusnoble: aah cool, okay.
[22:23] <Randomskk> right, I see
[22:23] <Randomskk> okay makes sense
[22:24] <Randomskk> my current line of thought is something like, order the espresso so when it arrives I can have fun with a toy plus have a platform to hack on, in the meantime do the stm32 esc and other prep work plus get a gumstix
[22:24] <Randomskk> once the espresso turns up, put gumstix and stm32 and gps and whatever else inside it on proto stuff (it's big enough to take the weight) and get ideas working
[22:25] <Randomskk> then while that's flying and able to do clever stuff I can start designing a pcb with the motor controllers, lightweight everything, and gumstix carrier
[22:26] <fergusnoble> sounds good to me
[22:26] <Randomskk> stm32 esc needs buying the new stm things and designing and ordering a carrier pcb, working out power stage concerns, getting a motor spinning
[22:27] <Randomskk> if the first pcb revision is okay theoretically it could all be working by the end of term
[22:27] <Randomskk> depends on what my workload's like I guess, plus where else I spend time
[22:27] <Randomskk> hmm
[22:27] <Randomskk> well it sounds like a plan
[22:27] <Randomskk> unless I'm missing something silly
[22:28] <Randomskk> oh plus I'd better order an rc radio sometime. the espresso comes with battery?
[22:29] <fergusnoble> not sure
[22:29] <fergusnoble> one sec
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[22:31] <fergusnoble> yeah it comes with a 3S 2000mAh lipo but no charger
[22:31] <Randomskk> yea I have chargers, batteries, etc
[22:31] <Randomskk> remements of my old quadcopter project >.>
[22:31] <Randomskk> remnants, even
[22:32] <Randomskk> but I never actually got an rc handset/receiver, had a usb thing and xbees instead
[22:32] <Randomskk> which was an interesting lack of foresight
[22:33] <fergusnoble> you can probably fly it over xbee but you might have to write some software for that
[22:34] <fergusnoble> and reliability wouldnt be great
[22:34] <Randomskk> yea I'd be more concerned about reliability
[22:34] <Randomskk> it's not hard to get rc kit really
[22:34] <daveake> ping jonsowman
[22:34] <Randomskk> haha well this uses up my unexpected bonus from work, easy come easy go really :P
[22:34] <jonsowman> hi daveake
[22:34] <daveake> Evening :-)
[22:34] <jonsowman> how are things?
[22:34] <daveake> Ready :)
[22:35] <daveake> Knackered
[22:35] <daveake> Take a look at this please ... http://habhub.org/predict/#!/uuid=8e6b2ef0e4f3e2c8aa118d747c6eca340cf2eee5
[22:35] <jonsowman> hehe
[22:35] <fergusnoble> oh I see you pledged, awesome, the quadshot guys say thanks!!
[22:35] <daveake> then change the time from 5:40 to 5:39 and recalc ....
[22:35] <Randomskk> hehe I'm sure I'm as excited as they are
[22:36] <jonsowman> daveake: I've seen that before
[22:36] <daveake> It's, erm, dramatic!
[22:36] <jonsowman> sometimes the GFS data doesn't change continuously but has large 'jumps'
[22:36] <daveake> Guessed so
[22:36] <Lunar_Lander> good night
[22:36] <jonsowman> yes, it's also massively unhelpful
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[22:36] <daveake> Indeed
[22:36] <daveake> Dunno where to go now :)
[22:37] <fergusnoble> jonsowman: hi! hows it going?
[22:37] <daveake> Maybe reality is somewhere in-between
[22:37] <jonsowman> lemme try clearly the cache but I doubt anything'll change
[22:37] <jonsowman> hi fergusnoble :)
[22:37] <jonsowman> all's great here thanks
[22:37] <jonsowman> how are you?
[22:37] <fergusnoble> pretty good
[22:37] <jonsowman> excellent
[22:37] <jonsowman> what you are up to these days?
[22:38] <fergusnoble> got out to the states about a week ago to start on the software gps project
[22:38] <jonsowman> oh excellent
[22:38] <fergusnoble> henry and I are starting a new company to work on it with a couple other guys
[22:38] <jonsowman> :D
[22:38] <Randomskk> what's the market like for that/
[22:38] <jonsowman> sounds great
[22:38] <Randomskk> ?*
[22:38] <fergusnoble> Randomskk: I guess we will find out :)
[22:38] <jonsowman> daveake: i've cleared the cache and now it's unchanging between :40 and :39
[22:39] <Randomskk> besides crazy cambridge student societies launching rokets :P
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[22:39] <Randomskk> rockets* my typing is pretty poor.
[22:39] <daveake> jonsowman - cheers :-)
[22:39] <fergusnoble> the plan is to quickly release a hacker version for crazy students and the like
[22:39] <jonsowman> i don't know why it's being sketchy at the moment, it's not done this quite this badly before daveake
[22:39] <daveake> And it's now safely away from Luton airport :)
[22:39] <jonsowman> anyway
[22:39] <jonsowman> hopefully that's more useful
[22:39] <fergusnoble> then customise it to a few niche areas and release specific products there
[22:39] <jonsowman> fergusnoble: loving the quadshot thing
[22:40] <jonsowman> looks cool
[22:40] <daveake> Very much so! I tried different predictions with underfills but couldn't really get it far enough away for my liking.
[22:40] <fergusnoble> and also go after consulting work/ bespoke gps for high end applications
[22:40] <fergusnoble> jonsowman: yeah its really exciting
[22:40] <Randomskk> jonsowman: so I've backed quadshot for an espresso
[22:41] <jonsowman> Randomskk: :D
[22:41] <fergusnoble> jonsowman: I think it could be quite big for the uav / quadcopter community
[22:41] <jonsowman> fergusnoble: definitely
[22:41] <jonsowman> looks like a great step forward
[22:41] <Randomskk> jonsowman: so we are going to have the best toys in lent term or something
[22:41] <jonsowman> Randomskk: haha, excellent, I can't wait
[22:41] <jonsowman> :D
[22:41] <Randomskk> nor can I :P just need to order rc handset
[22:42] <Randomskk> jonsowman: and borrow your point and shoot ;P
[22:42] <Randomskk> haha I really have to get my point and shoot back
[22:42] <jonsowman> haha no problem
[22:42] <Randomskk> and then once flying it gets passe, start hacking on getting my own platform running with the gumstix and all the rest
[22:42] <fergusnoble> jonsowman: did you back them as well then?
[22:42] <Randomskk> in the meantime, time to get the stm32 motor controller working
[22:42] <jonsowman> fergusnoble: i wish i had the cash ;)
[22:43] <Randomskk> fergusnoble: pretty much any rc should be fine, right? how many channels?
[22:43] <fergusnoble> yeah no worries, I thought you mean you were both getting them lol
[22:43] <jonsowman> unfortunately i have an expensive and rather less exciting cambelt and glow plug change to pay for
[22:43] <jonsowman> i'll have to be extra nice to Randomskk and hope he lets me have a go :P
[22:43] <Randomskk> haha
[22:43] <Randomskk> I think everyone will be having a go ;) we should take it to one of the big fields
[22:44] <fergusnoble> erm, let me ask piotr, I think it works best with a spektrum rx although they have a converter board for other types
[22:44] <Randomskk> and hope it doesn't crash :( wonder how many propellors it comes with, hah
[22:44] <fergusnoble> its pretty robust
[22:44] <Randomskk> fergusnoble: if there's a particularly recommended rc I'd just get that
[22:44] <jonsowman> let's drive and you can have it follow us :D
[22:44] <fergusnoble> ive seen it come away undamaged from some pretty gnarly crashes
[22:44] <Randomskk> haha we could drive quite far out to some proper fields actually
[22:44] <Randomskk> I'm so jealous of joby's offices, that looks like a beautiful place to work
[22:45] <Randomskk> you have the best forests
[22:45] <jonsowman> yeah defintiely, sounds like fun :D
[22:45] <fergusnoble> yeah like I said you should come out and visit
[22:45] <jonsowman> would love to!
[22:46] <fergusnoble> I asked the quadshot guys and they said they are interested in interns
[22:46] <fergusnoble> maybe not right now but certainly in the summer
[22:46] <fergusnoble> they would probably pay flights and we have free accommodation here and free food weekdays so its cheap living
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[22:47] <Randomskk> that would be pretty amazing
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[22:49] <fergusnoble> piotr says about the rx/tx:
[22:49] <fergusnoble> yes Spectrum
[22:49] <fergusnoble> dx6 is fine but more channels useful if you want do do more with it
[22:49] <fergusnoble> the orange satellites from hobby king work very well
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[22:52] <Randomskk> http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=17621 ?
[22:55] <fergusnoble> I think you only need a satellite receiver
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[22:55] <fergusnoble> they are designed to plug into the main receiver but actually its just outputs some kind of data stream
[22:55] <fergusnoble> which the lisa can use directly
[22:55] <Randomskk> ooh I see
[22:55] <fergusnoble> but let me confirm this
[22:56] <Randomskk> http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=13418 then?
[22:56] <fergusnoble> I guess so let me check
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[22:56] <fergusnoble> brb
[22:59] <fergusnoble> yeah thats right you only need the satellite rx
[22:59] <Randomskk> okay cool, and then a dx n, where n>=6
[23:00] <fergusnoble> yeah I think thats right
[23:00] <Randomskk> cool. and then xbees for telem and stuff
[23:00] <fergusnoble> apparently there are no cheap spektrum clones of the tx
[23:00] <fergusnoble> yup
[23:00] <fergusnoble> the espresso includes the xbees
[23:00] <Randomskk> yea
[23:00] <Randomskk> (though I have plenty anyway :P)
[23:02] <Randomskk> hah they're definitely not cheap
[23:04] <fergusnoble> the alternative is a non spektrum system with a converter but piotr says he heavily recommends the spektrum
[23:04] <fergusnoble> brb
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[23:11] <fergusnoble> back
[23:11] <Randomskk> hi
[23:12] <Randomskk> found a dx7s for £175 so that looks good
[23:17] <fergusnoble> that sounds good
[23:18] <Randomskk> will hold off on buying it until needed though, don't think I need to have it in my hands until I have the quadshot too
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[23:23] <Randomskk> Matt_soton: so it looks like farnell do now carry the 48pin stm32f100 series
[23:23] <Randomskk> http://uk.farnell.com/stmicroelectronics/stm32f100c4t6b/ic-mcu-32bit-16k-flash-48lqfp/dp/1838504
[23:23] <Randomskk> £2 each
[23:23] <Randomskk> 7mm by 7mm
[23:23] <Randomskk> and has the onboard supersexy timer for bldc
[23:25] <Randomskk> also, oh my
[23:25] <Randomskk> "STM32 PMSM FOC SDK v3.0 motor control firmware library"
[23:26] <Randomskk> oh :( it's just for AC
[23:27] <Randomskk> wait, or is it
[23:27] <Randomskk> http://www.st.com/internet/com/SALES_AND_MARKETING_RESOURCES/MARKETING_PRESENTATIONS/PRODUCT_PRESENTATION/stm32_motor_control_firmware_library_marketing_pres.pdf
[23:28] <Randomskk> the PDF seems to imply that it's only for AC, but it looks like they might really mean BLDC
[23:30] <Matt_soton> is it alot of effort to program a esc?
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[23:32] <Randomskk> it depends
[23:32] <Randomskk> on algorithms
[23:32] <Randomskk> basically yes, but how much so varies
[23:32] <Randomskk> for things like vector control, it's a lot of maths
[23:32] <Matt_soton> i recon that lib would work with DC
[23:32] <Randomskk> for a fairly simple naive approach, less so
[23:33] <Randomskk> I think that library is for PMSM and I think PMSM is different enough from BLDC to matter
[23:34] <Matt_soton> well some of those block diagrams look similar, but i havnt looked into differences
[23:34] <Randomskk> http://www.control.com/thread/1026172925
[23:34] <Randomskk> however that suggests they are in fact the same thing
[23:34] <Randomskk> I'm surprised the ST docs never say "BLDC"
[23:35] <Randomskk> though the motors I'd be using are likely trapezoidally wound
[23:36] <Randomskk> I think where the ST doc says "DC" it means actual DC drive
[23:36] <Randomskk> oh, but trapezoidal is apparently okay with this library
[23:36] <Randomskk> hmmm
[23:36] <Randomskk> so actually the implication there is that
[23:36] <Randomskk> this library will work
[23:36] <Randomskk> and does all the software
[23:37] <Randomskk> and does so in a super sexy awesome fashion
[23:37] <Randomskk> (i.e. uses FOC)
[23:37] <Matt_soton> it uses alot of resources
[23:37] <Randomskk> not a problem
[23:37] <Matt_soton> i wouldnt want to bother programming that
[23:37] <Randomskk> I have an stm32 per motor
[23:37] <Randomskk> yea, but it's all written for me
[23:37] <Randomskk> all I do is put their code on and add in a communication interface
[23:37] <Randomskk> in theory
[23:37] <Randomskk> it should be a heck of a lot superior to using a cheap commerical ESC
[23:38] <Matt_soton> ive seen that library used actually
[23:38] <Randomskk> oh?
[23:38] <Matt_soton> that eval board looks familar
[23:39] <Matt_soton> its a arm 'look how good we are' thing
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[23:39] <Randomskk> I'm thinking "hey, I have an stm32 on a board"
[23:39] <Randomskk> maybe I could just design a power stage PCB
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[23:39] <Randomskk> in fact tbh that's the kind of thing you can prototype
[23:39] <Randomskk> with some stripboard
[23:39] <Randomskk> at 1A kind of current levels
[23:39] <Randomskk> so stripboard, some through-hole transistors
[23:39] <Randomskk> the stm32 dev board driving it
[23:39] <Matt_soton> yea, theyre board is a overkill, its for much bigger motors
[23:40] <Randomskk> yea indeed, I wouldn't buy their protoboard
[23:40] <Randomskk> but instead of designing my own PCB and soldering loads of stuff up
[23:40] <Randomskk> I could feasibly just prototype a power stage
[23:40] <Randomskk> connect it to my existing stm32
[23:40] <Randomskk> run that software
[23:40] <Randomskk> have a spinning motor
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[23:40] <Randomskk> if that works, stage two is a PCB that's got an stm32f100 and the power stage and is as small as possible, and when that drives a motor I now have a working reference BLDC controller using an stm32
[23:41] <Randomskk> then I design a quadcopter PCB with four of them on it
[23:41] <Matt_soton> :)
[23:41] <Randomskk> sky's the limit
[23:41] <Randomskk> hmm
[23:41] <Matt_soton> well...
[23:41] <Randomskk> dunno, does that sound sane?
[23:41] <Randomskk> I wonder if prototyping the power stage without a pcb is a good idea
[23:41] <Matt_soton> the upper atmosphere is the limit
[23:41] <Randomskk> last time I tried that I burnt out my jumper wire
[23:41] <Randomskk> lesson learnt, this is not a thing for breadboards
[23:41] <Matt_soton> well they are small motors
[23:41] <Randomskk> but stripboard should be fine
[23:42] <Randomskk> I don't have any of the really tiny motors. maybe I should order some, but hobbyking orders are best combined due to shipping
[23:42] <Randomskk> I do have some pretty small motors though
[23:42] <Matt_soton> u could take appart a pc fan
[23:42] <Matt_soton> same arrangment of coils?
[23:43] <Randomskk> well I have like eight BLDCs
[23:43] <Randomskk> just not the 3 gram ones on hk
[23:44] <Matt_soton> still surely they dont draw too much to blow up a breadboard?
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[23:44] <Randomskk> well no really the problem there was that the mosfet stuck on
[23:44] <Randomskk> I blew the entire bank of mosfets and the jumper wires
[23:44] <Randomskk> sad
[23:44] <Matt_soton> oh i see
[23:45] <Matt_soton> what were u powering it from?
[23:45] <Matt_soton> get a current limited supply
[23:45] <Randomskk> I have one now
[23:45] <Randomskk> didn't then
[23:46] <Matt_soton> i cant say ive actually ever broken one of those
[23:46] <Randomskk> I have four http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=5354
[23:46] <Randomskk> and four http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=2112
[23:46] <Randomskk> so plenty to play with
[23:47] <Matt_soton> are those what u got orginally to use ?
[23:47] <Randomskk> yea
[23:47] <Matt_soton> max load 14A :P
[23:47] <Randomskk> they're hardcore
[23:48] <Matt_soton> im guessing this was a bigger scale thing somehow
[23:48] <Randomskk> yes a bit
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[23:55] <Matt_soton> heres how not to do it apparently http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcubbloN4HU
[23:55] <fergusnoble> ok thats not too bad
[23:55] <Randomskk> oh wow that's massive
[23:58] <Randomskk> fergusnoble: aha, found the proper license
[23:58] <Randomskk> yea, it's fairly nice
[23:58] <Matt_soton> non commerical?
[23:58] <Randomskk> basically "you can use this to make products using ST chips which you may then sell"
[23:58] <Randomskk> "in the process you may distribute source code"
[23:59] <Matt_soton> st only
[23:59] <Matt_soton> fair enough i suppose
[23:59] <Randomskk> ST chips have to be running the library
[00:00] --- Sat Sep 17 2011